Divorcebusting.com
Posted By: Chris73 My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/04/17 03:39 PM
The title says it all folks. 2017 is here and it's time for me to drop the rope.

My sitch has been well documented in many threads. The last one is here:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2721509

I don't want to rehash the details here, but I will say that the holidays were very stressful. My WW and I had 2 big relationship discussions. Both of them totally initiated by me, knowing full well that I was just making things worse, but still not accepting the fact that honesty, logic, and reasoning can't win back a WW. Suffice it to say that I believe my W is in the very thick fog of a PA/EA. I don't have hard evidence, but I know for sure that she stayed out all night on Jan 1st and was NOT at the location she claimed to be. The lies just keep piling up.

It has taken me two full months of posting on this board and reading Sandi2's comments to finally realize that my W still has my b@lls in a bag. She has absolutely no respect for me. All she feels for me is anger and resentment. Any friendliness on her part is simply to keep my b@lls in her possession, while we live under the same roof but separated.

She's getting away with murder. She does whatever she wants and knows that her home is still there, her kids are well taken care of, and if for some reason she wants back in the marriage, it's available. All the while, I swallow my pride, suffer silently, and pine away for this woman because I love her and I want to keep my family together.

But no more. I have read Sandi2's WW threads over and over again. And every time something else happens in my MR, I head to the board and Sandi2 has not only already predicted it, but explains why it happened and how to react. And yet I still ignore her advice... "Oh my sitch is different," I say to myself. Well actually, it isn't. It's textbook WW selfishness. So consider this my awakening. I guess I just didn't want to believe it.

Now in my defense I have tried to apply some of Sandi2's rules and the LRT, but I'm still very much attached to my WW and my actions are all perfectly calculated to illicit a reaction from her. I "act as if" I'm moving on with my life but it's not a very convincing act. And only until today did I realize that I really need to "act as if" the M is over, because regardless of where the two of us end up, the M really IS over.

But today I am committing to following Sandi2's rules and advice to the letter. I'm going to need a lot of help along the way so I implore all of you to chime in anytime. This thread will serve as a journal for me and I will try to post often. Obviously my ultimate goal is to try to jar my W out of her A fog and get her to start piecing. But this goal is very far off right now. What I really need to do immediately is reclaim my b@lls and make it clear to my WW that her free ride is over.

I have an appointment for an initial consultation with a lawyer on Friday. My goal is to convince my W that she should move out, but I need a backup plan when she refuses (and she will) and knowing what some of my basic rights are will help. Plan B will likely be the separation of finances and possibly her removal from my medical insurance. She doesn't have any chronic illness so there's no need for me to feel guilty.

If you've read any of my other threads you'll know that we had planned a trip to Disney World for the 2nd week in January and we both still plan to go despite the current situation. So I will continue to keep the peace at home and not bring up the changes I listed above until after we get back. I know it sounds like a cop-out, but I really want my kids to enjoy their first trip to Disney. There's no need to have a discussion about what's going to happen after we get back. It will just make the vacation more tense.

I have claim over the MBR and will keep it that way. My WW has been sleeping on the couch for about 3 weeks now. Over the holiday we spent more time together than Sandi2 advises, but that will stop now. And most importantly, no more R talks. I'm done. Nothing good has ever come out of any of them but because I have a "fix-it" mentality, I just keep trying. In addition to this I will try my best to not initiate any conversation and be brief when she initiates. This is really the hardest part because I have to remember to always be upbeat and positive, yet reserved and pulled back. This is very hard for me to do and many times I come off as cold or angry. This is what I need to work on the most. If she knows the sitch is still bothering me, she still has my b@lls.

Not sure what else to add at this point. I have a lot of changes to make for myself, to get my mojo back, to be the guy that my W initially fell in love with, even if she never comes back. I welcome all comments and advice, but mostly I ask for encouragement. This tough love is harder than anything else I've ever had to do.
Posted By: AndrewP Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/04/17 03:51 PM
Chris73 - And one very important thing to remember is that you WILL have setbacks, you WILL make "mistakes". Just pick yourself up, dust yourself off and keep going.
Posted By: PatientMan Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/04/17 04:05 PM
You sound good. Really think about your boundaries inside the house and while on vacation so you are equipped with a plan. If you have questions, ask them.

Some general things to think about and focus on:

Originally Posted By: me
Be someone who can look back on his actions and be proud of the way he conducted himself. With honor, integrity, perseverance, kindness, compassion, love, forgiveness, goodness, and as someone who ALWAYS did what he thought was right. Be that man, and you will be proud no matter the results.

Originally Posted By: me
1) Learn to let go of control. This is obvious and easy to say, but much harder to do. However, it is critical to your recovery.
2) Learn to forgive. Most importantly, learn to forgive yourself.
3) Always do the right thing, no matter how difficult it is.
4) Act honorably.
5) Go out of your way to do something nice for someone else today.
6) Make today great! Don't wait for it to happen.


A small start on "detachment".
Posted By: lt0402 Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/04/17 06:02 PM
Originally Posted By: AndrewP
Chris73 - And one very important thing to remember is that you WILL have setbacks, you WILL make "mistakes". Just pick yourself up, dust yourself off and keep going.
Originally Posted By: AndrewP
Chris73 - And one very important thing to remember is that you WILL have setbacks, you WILL make "mistakes". Just pick yourself up, dust yourself off and keep going.


Chris, AP hits the nail on the head here. It's easy to let yourself fall off the path when a mistake is made. Know that it will happen and just push through it.

I'm not as familiar with your situation but it sounds like you and I have similar issues. I'll catch up and see if I can add anything that may help. I love the fact that you have a plan now and some determination to create change though.

Expect to stumble, we all do. Keep your head down, grind through it, and stay strong. Will catch up
Posted By: Chris73 Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/04/17 06:08 PM
Thanks Andrew and PatMan! I'm sure I will be asking tons of questions.

Just got done with a 60 min meditation session at the local Buddhist temple. Now I'm sipping bourbon waiting for my train home. Was hoping to get home in time to read to my son before bed but it's not going to happen. I think I need to learn how to detach from my kids as well as my W. With all this going on I've been hyper sensitive to spend as much time with them as possible. I guess as a way of strengthening the bond before things get worse. But I've been a great dad for 8 years now and I can't stress about missing bedtimes. My W misses them twice a week, every week. I know my kids love me.
Posted By: Chris73 Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/04/17 06:10 PM
Originally Posted By: lt0402
Expect to stumble, we all do. Keep your head down, grind through it, and stay strong. Will catch up

Thanks lt. It's quite a saga...
Posted By: Chris73 Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/04/17 08:20 PM
Got home late, but to my delight my son was still awake and I got to talk with him for a few minutes. He's such a cool kid. And this is the part that kills me. My parents divorced when I was his age. And I definitely have some issues that still need working through because of it. I never wanted that for him. And my W and I always swore to each other that we would never let it happen. Of course now she's changed her tune, emphasizing the idea that "kids are resilient, they'll adapt." Quite a convenient point of view considering her behavior lately.

Anyway, I've been trying to get my head around how to behave when you're "going dark," which is what Sandi2 suggests when there is an A going on. When I see my W for the first time in the morning or when I get home, I say Hi and she says Hi. I think not saying Hi is rude. We also say Goodnight to each other. I'm sure I'm overthinking but it seems like the devil is in the details. Of course I'm not going to ask her how her day was. Of course I'm not going to kiss her. But "hello" and "goodnight" seem courteous to me. I'm not trying to be rude.

Thoughts...?
Posted By: Last79 Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/04/17 08:30 PM
I think your right. I had been going dark during our in house seperation with no hellos or goodbyes, goodnights. I feel like it just creates a more hostile environment and comes across cold which isn't good. We are now physically separating soon, planning logistics out now. I definately will be saying hello and goodbyes then.
Posted By: MoveFrwd Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/04/17 08:42 PM
Originally Posted By: Chris73
Obviously my ultimate goal is to try to jar my W out of her A fog and get her to start piecing.


Why don't you set goals that are within your control? You can't use her out of her dog - a better goal is to be in a healthy R. It's much easier and more fulfilling to work towards that goal. Otherwise your actions will tend towards trying to influence her and not focused on you.
Posted By: ForGump Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/05/17 12:03 AM
Chris-

It's good to detach. Not sure about going dark. Sandi would say yes, and I'd probably agree, but MWD's DB coaches likely will advocate a warmer approach.

Anyhow, don't fall into the trap of focusing on your WW. Go GAL and rediscover yourself, and be the guy your wife would be a fool to leave.

The word on the street is that there is no path to reconciliation through in-house separation. And it makes sense to me. So prepare yourself for some tough times....
Posted By: MrBond Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/05/17 03:39 AM
Maybe I missed it but did you read DB or DR?
Posted By: Chris73 Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/05/17 05:34 AM
Originally Posted By: darknes
Why don't you set goals that are within your control? You can't use her out of her fog - a better goal is to be in a healthy R. It's much easier and more fulfilling to work towards that goal. Otherwise your actions will tend towards trying to influence her and not focused on you.

You're right darkness. This has been my problem for the past 7 months and clearly the biggest challenge of detaching.

Last night after I got home and finished talking with my son, I immediately went back to the project I had started over the holiday weekend of recaulking the bathtub. This is a definite 180 for me because not only was it 9:30pm and I had to get up at 5 this morning, but during the 9 years that we've lived in our house I never took ownership of any home maintenance. I even think that at one point my W may have recaulked the bathtub on her own. So there I am with my painter's tape and my caulking gun, zoned in, trying to do the best job possible and all while I waiting/hoping that my W will walk in to talk to me (or at least walk by to see what I'm doing).

So there's the difficulty with detachment right there. I couldn't just be happy with the fact that I finally finished the job and it came out well. I wanted praise, validation, and to reinforce with my W the fact that the changes I'm making are sticking. The good news is that I didn't let any of this show. I cleaned up, said goodnight and went to bed.

Originally Posted By: ForGump
...there is no path to reconciliation through in-house separation.

After 2 months of living like this I have to believe that it's true. I've heard stories of people who live this way for many years, typically because they can't afford to separate finances or they want to wait until the kids leave the house. I can't believe that my sitch will end up this way. Without the kids I'm certain that my W would have left by now. But neither of us want to leave our home knowing that doing so may hurt our chances of custody and will definitely send a message to our kids. Sometimes it feels like a game of chicken, but that's no way to live your life.

Originally Posted By: MrBond
Maybe I missed it but did you read DB or DR?
I have both and I've spent more time reading DR over DB. I've read the chapters on LRT in both books many times over. I need to revisit the other chapters again soon, but quite honestly I'm so exhausted from thinking about this day in and day out that I need to put these books down for a bit and read something else.

I have an IC session this afternoon and I really want to focus the discussion on me instead of my W and my R. We'll see how it goes.
Posted By: Vapo Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/05/17 05:47 AM
So would it be an accurate description that you have not read neither of the 2 books?
Posted By: Chris73 Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/05/17 06:23 AM
Originally Posted By: Vapo
So would it be an accurate description that you have not read neither of the 2 books?

To be clear, I had read the first few chapters of DB and then came to this board and found out that DR was considered and updated version. I read DR all the way through to Part 3 and also the infidelity chapter. I then went back and focused on chapter 6 of DR and also read the LRT section of DB.
Posted By: Gordie Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/05/17 08:18 AM
Originally Posted By: Chris73
I have an appointment for an initial consultation with a lawyer on Friday. My goal is to convince my W that she should move out, but I need a backup plan when she refuses (and she will) and knowing what some of my basic rights are will help. Plan B will likely be the separation of finances and possibly her removal from my medical insurance. She doesn't have any chronic illness so there's no need for me to feel guilty.

I have a lot of changes to make for myself, to get my mojo back, to be the guy that my W initially fell in love with, even if she never comes back. I welcome all comments and advice, but mostly I ask for encouragement. This tough love is harder than anything else I've ever had to do.


Chris73--best wishes, what a great 2017 resolution! I was with my L yesterday discussing separation, so we are living parallel lives...
Posted By: Chris73 Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/05/17 09:04 AM
Originally Posted By: Gordie
Chris73--best wishes, what a great 2017 resolution! I was with my L yesterday discussing separation, so we are living parallel lives...
\
Thanks Gordie. And yet another thing I have to put energy into: finding a competent lawyer that I can afford. Some of these firms charge $100 just for the initial consult. Anyone have advice on this?
Posted By: Vapo Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/05/17 11:16 AM
2 pieces of advice...

1. Do read DR cover to cover, and do take the time to do it at your pace.

2. Just today I read all your threads (messy stuff, you really should fill the old one up, before starting anew, but it is not all that messy) and it hit me. I believe you would benefit greatly if you were to reread your old thread and it would help you with a lot of stuff (comparing your mindset at the time and current) and you might really take a lot from it.

3 (bonus item). Do track down Sandi's 37 rules, print them out, laminate them and reread them at least twice a day.
Posted By: Chris73 Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/05/17 12:57 PM
Thanks Vapo. I guess there are too many threads. I feel as if every time my sitch changes I want to start a new thread!

I just went back to my very first thread. Man were things different! It's a little depressing because I feel like on one level it has gotten so much worse. But then I think of some of the GAL progress that I've made and I see the silver lining. I will definitely re-read everything.

Had a productive IC session today. It's a new therapist that I just started with a few weeks ago and I'm starting to like him more than my previous one. We talked about the most recent conversations I've had with my W and he asked me why I always feel the need to explain everything? Why am I always trying to hammer my point across? Saying the same things over and over? I've always thought that this was a normal communication method, but he has a good point. I wonder how many times in my M my need to explain my point exhausted the conversation to the point where my W gave up. Or even worse, decided not to bring something up in the first place!

So I guess one of my goals should be to learn how to be a man of fewer words. I share very few qualities with the alpha-male type and I think this has contributed to my W losing respect for me. In every R conversation we've had, I've always backed down. The classic "nice guy" routine where I outwardly appease the other person and then internally build up resentment for not getting what I want. My W even admitted to me once that she WANTED me to go ballistic when I found out about her A. She WANTED to see anger and acts of self-preservation. But I didn't do that. I told her right away that I forgave her and started working to win her back.

A while back I started reading a book about the "Nice Guy" syndrome and how to overcome it. But then I got sidetracked by the DB and DR books. I think I will go back and finish reading it now.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/05/17 01:57 PM
Quote:
We talked about the most recent conversations I've had with my W and he asked me why I always feel the need to explain everything? Why am I always trying to hammer my point across? Saying the same things over and over? I've always thought that this was a normal communication method, but he has a good point. I wonder how many times in my M my need to explain my point exhausted the conversation to the point where my W gave up. Or even worse, decided not to bring something up in the first place!


Interesting remarks. Do you feel the need to explain your viewpoint.....or is it in anything? For instance, rehashing something you find troublesome/stressful? If this is how one of your parents communicated, then I can see how that would seem normal to you. Another thought, do you feel as though you will be judged and that is why you have a need to thoroughly explain? Maybe you just wanted to be right?

Quote:
So I guess one of my goals should be to learn how to be a man of fewer words.


Maybe start by not repeating your points or rehash an old subject? Of course, that would probably be fewer words. smile

Quote:
My W even admitted to me once that she WANTED me to go ballistic when I found out about her A. She WANTED to see anger and acts of self-preservation. But I didn't do that. I told her right away that I forgave her and started working to win her back.


Yes, I see that happen in stories from time to time. Some people may see it as being the bigger person....but the WW is thinking, "I did not ask for your forgiveness!" She might even feel disgusted that her H would not get a little riled over the fact she is having an A!

Quote:
A while back I started reading a book about the "Nice Guy" syndrome and how to overcome it. But then I got sidetracked by the DB and DR books. I think I will go back and finish reading it now.


Good idea.
Posted By: lt0402 Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/05/17 02:05 PM
Originally Posted By: Chris73
Originally Posted By: Gordie
Chris73--best wishes, what a great 2017 resolution! I was with my L yesterday discussing separation, so we are living parallel lives...
\
Thanks Gordie. And yet another thing I have to put energy into: finding a competent lawyer that I can afford. Some of these firms charge $100 just for the initial consult. Anyone have advice on this?


Still catching up (a lot to read!), but if you haven't already you should see an L to understand your options. I gained a lot of confidence and solace in understanding the process and getting a realistic view of how things might shake out. It may do a lot to help ground you. Knowledge is power. I put it off longer than I should have and I wish I'd done it sooner in my situation. Just a quick thought.

Originally Posted By: Chris73
My W even admitted to me once that she WANTED me to go ballistic when I found out about her A. She WANTED to see anger and acts of self-preservation.


Years ago, my W hinted this to me when we were in an argument. It was strange to hear at the time and I'd thought maybe I was misinterpreting things. When i found out about my WW i took the approach of discussing w/ her from a compassionate/rational place and she pretty much walked all over me. A month later her and I had a blow-up shouting match and I let out a lot of the anger that had been building up inside. I could tell she was goading me on and I extricated myself from the situation, but she did act markedly different towards me after that. Not saying you should go ballistic up on her, but don't let her steamroll you and make sure you stand up for what is right.
Posted By: ForGump Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/05/17 03:31 PM
I don't think WW's want to see anger per se -- even if they say so. What they want is to feel wanted, valued and prized by you.

After all, isn't that why they went to have an affair in the first place? They wanted to feel wanted.
Posted By: Woke_Up Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/05/17 03:57 PM
I think there's a lot to be said for that, FG. Mine seems much more content to cake eat and not feel bad now that I have backed off, When I first found out and there was a lot of anger, when I first had her cancel her Skype account and she thought there was nothing she could do about it, there was more of a contrite reaction from her, mixed in with the resentment of being controlled.

The only time I have lost it badly since was when I saw she had sent pics of D to the AP. I made her delete the pic from the chat timeline, and she seemed genuinely(?) - well if not sorry, then at least understanding of my anger.

I think they want to se that you care about something, that you value something.
Passion, even in anger, seems to be more respected than passivity.
Posted By: PatientMan Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/05/17 04:16 PM
When WWs see anger it's something they can use to blame YOU for the marital problems and confirmation/justification for them to wander.

A moment of anger isn't necessarily bad, per se, but it followed with doormat behavior is the worst.

-PM
Posted By: Chris73 Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/05/17 05:17 PM
Right, and MY initial reaction to the BD was, "wah! wah! Please don't leave me. Let me try extra hard to romance you."

Basically more of the same behavior that drove her to the A in the first place.
Posted By: PacLove Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/05/17 05:40 PM
Originally Posted By: Chris73
Right, and MY initial reaction to the BD was, "wah! wah! Please don't leave me. Let me try extra hard to romance you."


The problem is they aren't interested in that from you right now... it's seen as desperate and too little too late. You might feel better but it really doesn't do anything for the R. Until the OM is out of the Picture you really can't compete.
Posted By: MrBond Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/05/17 06:03 PM
"I read DR all the way through to Part 3 and also the infidelity chapter. I then went back and focused on chapter 6 of DR and also read the LRT section of DB."

I thought as much. The reason why you haven't been able to come up with a cohesive plan is because you're jumping around and cherry picking those parts of the book and here that you think best suits you. Doesn't work that way. You have to really understand EVERYTHING first before coming up with a plan.

Do that first.
Posted By: Chris73 Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/05/17 06:32 PM
Originally Posted By: PacLove
Until the OM is out of the Picture you really can't compete.

Learned the hard way on that one!

And now that OM2 seems to be in full effect I need to do a 180.
Posted By: MrBond Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/05/17 06:42 PM
"
Until the OM is out of the Picture you really can't compete."

The key is to not compete.
Posted By: Chris73 Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/05/17 07:19 PM
Ok all. I REALLY need some guidance here. I know this might seem like a silly question but I'm very torn...

Kids are in bed, wife is out (very likely with OM2), and I'm trying to catch up on my laundry. There are clean clothes in the dryer. My kids clothes mixed with m W's clothes. I pull all the clothes out and start folding.

Suddenly, as I'm folding a pair of my W's underwear (sexy ones I might add, not granny panties!) I say to myself, "That b*tch is out right now cheating on me and here I am folding her underwear like an obedient cuckold!"

So I folded the rest of my kids' clothes and left hers unfolded.

This seems right to me. Justified. I'm certainly not going to fold her clothes when she moves out. Why make life easy for her when she's cheating on me?

But then I start thinking about doing the honorable thing. Acting with integrity and love. Being detached. This is petty. They're just clothes. It's my problem that I add an emotional emphasis because of whose clothes they are right?

Or maybe I'm just scared that this little act of rebellion will trigger more anger and resentment from her...

What's the appropriate action here?
Posted By: PatientMan Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/05/17 07:19 PM
What Bond said, and - as you have already probably figured out - the problem isn't the OM, it is you. The options she has right now are "not you" and why it is so critical to take care of what you can control...being a man only a fool would leave.

-PM
Posted By: lt0402 Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/05/17 07:30 PM
Does she do your laundry also? Honestly, if it were me I'd just leave her stuff in the dryer. Scheme of things whether you do or don't it doesn't matter. I wouldn't expend a ton of time worrying about it. Best to get some sleep and be ready to roll tomorrow, fully refreshed!

Don't sweat it Chris. I've been where you are right now and have found concern in similar stuff. I know the angst you are feeling and it will go away. Be strong brother!
Posted By: Chris73 Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/05/17 07:37 PM
We both do the all the laundry on an as-needed basis. Whenever it piles up, the first person to notice it will throw a load in. I think the issue that I have with what I did tonight is that I went out of my way to separate my W's clothes from my kids' clothes and only fold theirs. It's not just an act of negligence or laziness. It sends a definitive message.
Posted By: PacLove Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/05/17 08:51 PM
Whenever my W's clothes were in the dryer mixed in with the others I just folded it or hung it... didn't really think much of it. She did the same with mine. TBH she likely won't even notice or if she does don't expect a Thanks... but at the same time leaving it and only it in there will likely cause a rise from her - is that what you want?
Posted By: bigybiz Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/05/17 10:37 PM
Chris73:
I served 5 months in house. It was bad. I made lots of mistakes. Then I really kicked into the DB site way. I took over almost every function she served in our home. I ran the house the way I wanted it, got projects started and finished, developed stronger relationships with my kids, etc.

I made the mistake of trying to be friendly (as per my DB coach). It was tough and confusing. Draw clear lines and stick to them. If you don't do her laundry today, don't do it tomorrow.

If she is supposed to provide dinner tonight don't let her off the hook.

Most importantly - you need to stick to your commitments. You also, need to give the perception you are moving on too. I bought a motorcycle, injected myself into our S10 school, entertained, etc.

As Sandy says - In house is the ultimate in cake eating. Chances are she won't change her mind. So get ready for the next step. Do it on your terms.
Posted By: ForGump Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/05/17 11:03 PM
Chris,

She's out cheating on you right now and you're looking at her her sexy underwear. What are you feeling??? Are you seriously feeling like doing her laundry?!?!

I say be true to your feelings.
Posted By: MrBond Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/06/17 03:48 AM
'It sends a definitive message.'

Yes. It sends a message that you're a boy pouting. If you're looking for a message, put the clothes together in a suitcase and leave it outside. With a note with a lawyer's info and that you contacted the om's family and told the kids. That's a message.
Posted By: Chris73 Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/06/17 09:32 AM
Originally Posted By: MrBond
It sends a message that you're a boy pouting.

This is what I eventually decided as well. I folded the rest of the laundry. I need to keep the peace for one more week. Once the Disney trip is over and I've got some legal advice, we'll have a sit-down and I'll present her with the options of moving out or separating the finances. I hesitate to present her with a third option of ending the A and working on the marriage. Based on Sandi2's advice if she really is in the thick of it, she might say yes just to avoid the other 2 options and just continue the A and cake eating anyway.

The rest of my evening was pretty bad. It had started snowing around 10:30 when I went to bed so I sent my W a "please be careful driving" txt. I didn't sleep well. Kept having dreams about my W with OM2 (unlike OM1 I don't know what OM2 looks like so my subconscious is conjuring up images from scratch). I woke up startled at 1:30 to find her home safe. She had never replied to my txt. The rest of the night I was still plagued with dreams of her cheating, leaving, and basically just flaunting her new freedom in my face.

Our current in-house separation arrangement is that I work late on M/W/F and she has dinner with the kids without me. On T/T/S she works late and I have dinner with the kids without her. Sunday is a family day. On the days when I work late, I still try to be home in time to see the kids before bed. On her days to work late, she never does (even if her schedule permits it), and she ALWAYS goes out with "friends" and comes home late. On the nights when she's home with the kids for dinner she regularly invites the neighbor and her 3 kids over. Yes, this is the neighbor who she parties with and (although I can't prove it) encourages her wayward behavior. The kids all play together and the two of them sit around and drink.

I'm no psychologist, but it seems to me that my W is constantly finding ways to distract herself in an attempt to avoid sitting quietly and dealing with her current mindset. After the first BD she started IC and spent some time reading books that the IC recommended, and journalling. Now she does none of that. All the self-help books that she's purchased are sitting on the nightstand in our MBR collecting dust. I suppose this is the absolute selfishness that Sandi2 talks about. She's told me in several conversations that IC has shown her that she was robbed of a childhood and spent 45 years taking care of everyone else and putting herself last. Now it seems as if she's making up for lost time.

Look, I know none of this matters with regard to how I need to act. She has chosen this path and I can't walk down it with her. I need to find my own path and set boundaries so that my W's selfishness and poor judgment doesn't negatively affect my kids. I guess I'm just trying to get inside her head to understand her better.

Getting all of this out of my head and into this thread helps me through the grieving process and allows me to shift my focus to something else. I don't know about the other folks on this board but this sitch consumes my every waking moment and it's exhausting. I look forward to sleep because I can escape for a few hours.
Posted By: Gordie Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/06/17 10:09 AM
Originally Posted By: Chris73


I folded the rest of the laundry...

...she was robbed of a childhood and spent 45 years taking care of everyone else and putting herself last. Now it seems as if she's making up for lost time...

...I guess I'm just trying to get inside her head to understand her better...

...I don't know about the other folks on this board but this sitch consumes my every waking moment and it's exhausting...


Chris73: Oh man, I could have written all of the above. You are not alone. My only question on the above is the re: please be careful driving text. Did it surprise or bother you that she didn't reply? If so, why?
Posted By: Chris73 Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/06/17 10:20 AM
Originally Posted By: Gordie
Did it surprise or bother you that she didn't reply? If so, why?

It definitely did NOT surprise me but it did bother me. We hardly talk or spend any time together but we still have some basic consideration for each other. No response to my txt for 3 hours could have meant that she just didn't care to reply (which was the case) or it could have meant that something happened. Again, it goes back to the selfishness. She knows that I'm home and worried about her driving in bad weather (with the assumption that she's had a few drinks), but she doesn't respect me enough to send a quick reply saying that she's ok.
Posted By: PacLove Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/06/17 10:27 AM
I recall an incident like that a long while back, raining hard and I had genuine concern. I quickly realised that sending texts like that just builds up anxiety as you are constantly waiting a response - so I learned quickly not to txt and then then you aren't anticipating a response.

She's making her own choices, and yes we still care and love them - but we can't control or protect them anymore - they are their own selves.

The in house arrangement you have sounds very much like what I had except my W would leave when I got home on her nights to sleep elsewhere. It wasn't healthy at all - you need physical separation.
Posted By: Chris73 Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/06/17 10:37 AM
Originally Posted By: PacLove
The in house arrangement you have sounds very much like what I had except my W would leave when I got home on her nights to sleep elsewhere. It wasn't healthy at all - you need physical separation.

I agree. But clearly my W doesn't see it that way because there's no downside to the arrangement for her. She has the protection and stability of a married home life with the freedom of being single. Why would she ever want to move out? I HAVE GOT to set boundaries so that she feels the squeeze like I do.
Posted By: ForGump Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/06/17 10:37 AM
Originally Posted By: Chris73
Look, I know none of this matters with regard to how I need to act.


I think it matters.

The more deep rooted her problem is ... the longer it's going to take to resolve.

Resolve yourself to be in it for the long haul. I'm sorry to tell you.
Posted By: Chris73 Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/06/17 10:56 AM
Originally Posted By: ForGump
I think it matters.

The more deep rooted her problem is ... the longer it's going to take to resolve.

Resolve yourself to be in it for the long haul. I'm sorry to tell you.

Agreed FG and believe me, I'm trying to. I'm catching up on your sitch right now...
Posted By: sandi2 Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/06/17 11:01 AM
Quote:
We hardly talk or spend any time together but we still have some basic consideration for each other.


I think something is missing here ^^^^^. You aren't suppose to talk and spend time together. You are separated, remember? Would you have been calling her if you were physically separated? IDK, maybe you would.....but IMHO, this is tough love. She is giving up all of your protection over her, so she can have affairs. Your part is not to rescue her. Just to be clear, I understand about you being anxious for her well being in the bad weather. Like I said, it is called tough love b/c it's hard.

Quote:
She knows that I'm home and worried about her driving in bad weather (with the assumption that she's had a few drinks), but she doesn't respect me enough to send a quick reply saying that she's ok.


Exactly!

Quote:
But clearly my W doesn't see it that way because there's no downside to the arrangement for her. She has the protection and stability of a married home life with the freedom of being single. Why would she ever want to move out? I HAVE GOT to set boundaries so that she feels the squeeze like I do.


Yep!
Posted By: lt0402 Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/06/17 11:58 AM
Originally Posted By: Chris73

Getting all of this out of my head and into this thread helps me through the grieving process and allows me to shift my focus to something else. I don't know about the other folks on this board but this sitch consumes my every waking moment and it's exhausting. I look forward to sleep because I can escape for a few hours.


You're not alone Chris. Especially during the first few months of my situation I had trouble focusing on anything but. Around the exhaustion part, the exercise is key. It wears you out and also seems to be a natural medicine for your mind/body. Also gets out some of the aggression that builds up.

Keep hanging in there brother.
Posted By: Chris73 Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/06/17 12:27 PM
Originally Posted By: sandi2
You aren't suppose to talk and spend time together. You are separated, remember?

Right, and I'm fine with that. She tries to engage sometimes but I don't say much. Most of our longer conversations are about the kids. I guess my point was that even though we are hardly in each other's lives these days, I still expect some common courtesy.
Posted By: mvgfwd2 Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/06/17 12:31 PM
Stop texting her at all for anything that isn't an emergency related to your kids. I mean nothing. Same for phone calls, emails, and any other communication. It's been said so many times it should be on a scrolling banner at the bottom of the screen..."You can't nice her back!!!" Nice guys really to finish last if they finish at all. Get your b@lls out of her purse already.
Posted By: lt0402 Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/06/17 12:37 PM
Originally Posted By: Chris73
Originally Posted By: sandi2
You aren't suppose to talk and spend time together. You are separated, remember?

Right, and I'm fine with that. She tries to engage sometimes but I don't say much. Most of our longer conversations are about the kids. I guess my point was that even though we are hardly in each other's lives these days, I still expect some common courtesy.


Chris, you should have no expectations for what your W does or how she reacts. You don't control anything she does and having those expectations only sets you up for disappointment. Scratch the expectations.

Only do things for you. Do things that you know to be right. Do things that will help you become a better man. Do things for your kids to shield them from this and be their rock.

MV can speak to how hard it's been for me to learn this lesson. Listen to him. He's been instrumental in helping me to move away from the nice guy stuff. If your motives are to show your W how good of a guy you are, then you're only hurting yourself. If your motives are to improve yourself and do the right things for the right reasons then you are winning.

All of this is tough, but I've no doubt you can do it. Hang in there brother.
Posted By: JRuss Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/06/17 12:40 PM
Chris -- it stinks, but the reality is that even a text like the one you sent comes across as smothering pursuit to her at this point. It pushes her further away. You've got to pull back to where she really and truly is just a roommate, while you get your life on track and thriving. She'll notice and want to move closer or she won't. I'll be honest, I haven't seen many in-house sitches working out here for the LBS, but this will at least set you up to be and feel the best you can.
Posted By: Vapo Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/06/17 02:13 PM
Exactly What JRuss said. Textin is pursuit and pressure. And you expecting a reply is pressure on you. Stop it. Its needy and pushy and serves no purpose whatsoever.

You say you expect some common curtesy from her. Nix all expectatios, Every and each one. Expect nothing from her. Be selfsufficient. Do not rely on her for anything. Always plan around her. Do not get caught off guard. Your W IS NOT THE SAME PERSON YOU MARRIED. This person may be buried somewhere deep inside her. But it is layers and layers deep. There is no logic in treating her like your W when she clearly is not. But by now you figured it out by yourself. I am willing to bet that you still can't wrap your brain around the question who is this person inside your W's body.

I am 2 and half years post BD myself and I have noticed something. All our spouses follow pretty much the same script and none of the LBSs actually take prudent advice from the vets. My theory is that every one just has to experience every step before they realize the vets had it right from the get go. I try to offer advice to help and shave a couple of days of the journey, but mostly I fail at this. But is is OK, at least the LBS sees support is here and always alert.

Stay strong, try to be a little less needy and try to realize it is not you, it's her and NO, YOU CANNOT HELP HER and NO; SHE WILL NOT HEAR ANYTHING YOU SAY, you might as well be speaking Mandarin...
Posted By: bigybiz Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/06/17 02:21 PM
I can not agree more on the text/calls, etc. Go dark. Unless it's an emergency or close to it. Otherwise, make every decision on your own.

We are here for you if you want to chit chat about the day or share something that happened, talk to us.

One great nugget I got from Sandi2 was "You are not her secretary". I don't remind her of appt's etc. We've used a calendar in the kitchen. I tell her to check the calendar for updates. She squawks and complains, I tell her that this family has used this system for 15+ years. If you don't like you can recommend and implement a new system and why should she get special treatment.

Also, I say don't email me with updates, etc - I tell her to put it on the calendar. I'm not your secretary.

Any documents that come home, I put it in a binder and it's there for her. I'm not her secretary.

If she send me a text and it's worth a prompt response. I phone - as Paclove said it removes the anxiety, expectations, etc. If I speak to her great, if not I leave a message saying responding to your message call me back.

Wait for her to bring issues etc to you. It's very hard - but it will pay off. It's taken me months but, I tell you she is getting the message and I'm feeling great.
Posted By: Chris73 Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/06/17 02:46 PM
Thanks for all the advice and support everyone.

I just bit the bullet and ordered 3 sessions with a telephone coach. First one will be on Monday. Until then I'm going to try to keep kicking this nonsense out of my mind with GAL stuff.

Heading to the gym now. Tomorrow I'm going to a musician meet up in the city to jam. It will be my first one. So I hope to make some new friends there. Sunday is my S8's belated birthday party for his friends at a sports zone type facility. And you better believe that I will be in there with the 8-year-olds instead of trying to play the happy husband with the parents. Then after the party is Giants vs Green Bay. (Yes, I live in Philly and I root for the Giants.) Might even go out to watch the game and take my S8 with me.
Posted By: Chris73 Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/06/17 02:47 PM
(wondering why all of a sudden my posts need to be moderated again...?)
Posted By: Cadet Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/06/17 03:11 PM
Originally Posted By: Chris73
(wondering why all of a sudden my posts need to be moderated again...?)

I have no clue.

Did you post something against the TOS?

If not you should e-mail Virginia.
Posted By: Cadet Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/06/17 03:17 PM
Originally Posted By: Chris73
I just bit the bullet and ordered 3 sessions with a telephone coach.

Just noticed this.
Did you give out your DB name over the phone?
Posted By: Chris73 Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/06/17 03:48 PM
No, the TOS violation was on another users thread.
Posted By: Cadet Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/06/17 04:02 PM
Originally Posted By: Chris73
No, the TOS violation was on another users thread.

Sorry to hear this, I saw the message.
You will need to be on good behavior and then e-mail Virginia.
Posted By: Chris73 Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/06/17 07:33 PM
Gym was great. Totally pulled me out of my funk. Came home and the kids were still up watching a movie with my W. I decided to sit down with them. I wasn't going to hide in another room and I wasn't going to tell my W to leave. Just kept up my good mood until the kids were in bed.

As an interesting footnote to my earlier post, I went downstairs to finish the laundry that I had started last night and it was all out of the dryer lying in a pile on the folding table. You should've seen the grin that appeared on my face when I saw it! But I didn't overreact at all, and then my W came down and said, "Oh, I was just coming down to do that." I kept folding and didn't say anything.

Tomorrow our paths are not likely to cross at all. I kinda feel relieved about that...
Posted By: mvgfwd2 Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/06/17 10:23 PM
Exercise is the best medicine for all of us. Clears your head and heart while making it easier to sleep restfully. There is no better medicine.
Posted By: MoveFrwd Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/07/17 09:11 AM
Originally Posted By: ForGump

I say be true to your feelings.


Please don't listen to this advice. In fact, this is the opposite of what MAD writes about. You should be working towards your goals regardless of your feelings. If you're on a diet and feel hungry - do you eat regardless of the big picture? No...you think about how many calories you've consumed, the plan for the rest of the day, when you ate last, etc.

Make a plan and stick to it. Don't act based on how you FEEL.
Posted By: Chris73 Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/07/17 09:56 AM
Mornings are always terrible. It starts with waking up to realize that this is not just a nightmare. Then it evolves into those questions about wtf happened to my wife? She uses every opportunity to stay out as late as possible and then crashes the next day.

I'm trying my best to keep up with the house, but I work 11 hour days, 5 days a week, and my W works all day Saturday. She was always a stickler for cleanliness, but now the house is really starting to show some neglect. I feel like taking a week off and just doing it all myself.

Today I took my daughter to gymnastics and now we're at a birthday party for one of her friends. These days I'm extra observant of how many people are wearing wedding rings at these gatherings. I'm sure other people have problems but I feel like I'm the only one with a wife who has given up. I know it's just me feeling sorry for myself.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/07/17 11:28 AM
Quote:
feel like taking a week off and just doing it all myself.


Traditionally, was it your W who saw to the needs of house cleaning? How many hours a week does she work outside the home?

You are thinking of missing a week of work to clean the house. What is the real motivation or intent of your heart? Is it to help her, although she has neglected the conditions of the home? Is it to show her how negligent she has been...and now....YOU are missing an entire week of work to clean up and to take care of her work? Are you so bothered by the conditions that it would be worth a week's salary to get the place clean? And, when it reaches this stage again, will you have to take off another week?

I have not been in your M shoes, but over the years, I have had several individual adults to live with me (for a short while) who did not show respect for my home by leaving their mess and cluter for someone else to handle. They showed no apparent concern that someone else was left to clean their mess. It can really grate on whatever relationship you have with them. I found it amazing how they were not embarrassed or even ashamed of their lack of responsibility to clean up after themselves. I was left with four choices. Discuss it with them, and hope they change; say nothing and clean up their mess; ignore the mess as best I could; tell them they have to leave my home.
None of those options were pleasant. The longer I lived in the mess by my uninvited guest, the more I let it bother me.

It's odd how it can affect you when you have emotional attachments to the person. I suspect in a MR, you could see their negligence and mess being symbolic to their present frame of mind.

My recommendation is to be your own best friend here. Whatever you do about the clean or don't clean, it is not going to affect the wayward mindset of your W. I hope you can detach emotionally from the mess you see around you.
Posted By: Chris73 Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/07/17 08:57 PM
Originally Posted By: sandi2
Traditionally, was it your W who saw to the needs of house cleaning? How many hours a week does she work outside the home?

Yes, my W was typically responsible for the majority of the housework. She works a range of 16 - 24 hours/week. Never more than that since S8 was born. It's always been a bit of a bone of contention between us... that I don't do enough, or at the very least, I'm not pro-active enough to take on some of the household responsibilities.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
You are thinking of missing a week of work to clean the house. What is the real motivation or intent of your heart? Is it to help her, although she has neglected the conditions of the home? Is it to show her how negligent she has been...and now....YOU are missing an entire week of work to clean up and to take care of her work?

Six months ago, heck even 3 months ago I would have said that my motivation was the former. These days it's the latter. I feel like I've enabled the selfishness for too long by catering to her. It was my insecurity about her wanting to stay in the marriage that motivated me to do extra work. To "change my ways" even while knowing that it might be too late now.

But she told me on NYE that the only dominant feelings she has for me are anger and resentment. She looks around the house and everything she sees makes her feel angry and resentful. And I would bet that this anger and resentment even goes as far as our kids, even though she would NEVER admit it.

So lately my motivation in doing housework, finishing projects, fixing things and organizing the clutter around the house is to take ownership of it all. To not let my kids be affected by her negligence. To finally step up and be a man. But maybe also to help her let go of whatever might be keeping her from moving out. Maybe she needs to see that we'll be ok without her.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
Are you so bothered by the conditions that it would be worth a week's salary to get the place clean? And, when it reaches this stage again, will you have to take off another week?

Well, it would probably only be one or two days and maybe a couple of work from home days (my commute is over an hour in each direction). And once I felt like things were under control. It would be easier for me to maintain them after resolving to the fact that I cannot count on her help anymore.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
It's odd how it can affect you when you have emotional attachments to the person. I suspect in a MR, you could see their negligence and mess being symbolic to their present frame of mind.

I do see it that way. Just another example of how she has not handled this "awakening" appropriately. She's angry that she catered to everyone all her life (I'm just the most recent) and now she's trying to make up for it with 100% me time. Obviously a better way to do this would be to find a balance. If she insisted on more "me" time, I would have been happy to give it to her.

I don't know, maybe I'm interpreting this all wrong. Maybe it's the bourbon smile

Originally Posted By: sandi2
My recommendation is to be your own best friend here. Whatever you do about the clean or don't clean, it is not going to affect the wayward mindset of your W. I hope you can detach emotionally from the mess you see around you.

This, in a nutshell is my biggest problem, and always has been. In the book I'm reading it says that "nice guys" are always dependent on the reactions/approval from others to validate their self-worth. And this is especially true in romantic relationships. I'm still not detached yet. It's getting a little better, but I'm still second guessing most of my actions. Always wondering what she's thinking. Is she's noticing the changes I've made? How does it make her feel?

Sandi2, I believe you and everyone else on this board that nothing I do is really going to affect her mindset. That I have to do things for myself. To regain my identity. But the reality is that my emotions just naturally respond the other way. I guess this is where "fake it til you make it" comes in. Or as darknes says:

Originally Posted By: darknes
You should be working towards your goals regardless of your feelings... Make a plan and stick to it. Don't act based on how you FEEL.

Coming to this board 2 or 3 times a day and posting is like an addict calling his sponsor when he feels weak. My W is right upstairs on the couch watching TV. I want to run up there and shake her and say, "WTF, snap out of it! Are you crazy? Why are you doing this?" and then hug her and hold her until she comes back to earth. And believe me, I've done this a few times over the past 7 months, and it's gotten me nowhere. It's actually made things worse.

So instead I've spent the last hour writing this post and sipping bourbon and it's gotten me past it. I am now tired enough to forget about my sitch for the next 8 or 9 hours. Thank you DB board! Tomorrow is a new day!
Posted By: Jug Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/08/17 04:24 AM
Originally Posted By: Chris73
Mornings are always terrible. It starts with waking up to realize that this is not just a nightmare. Then it evolves into those questions about wtf happened to my wife? She uses every opportunity to stay out as late as possible and then crashes the next day.

I'm trying my best to keep up with the house, but I work 11 hour days, 5 days a week, and my W works all day Saturday. She was always a stickler for cleanliness, but now the house is really starting to show some neglect. I feel like taking a week off and just doing it all myself.

Today I took my daughter to gymnastics and now we're at a birthday party for one of her friends. These days I'm extra observant of how many people are wearing wedding rings at these gatherings. I'm sure other people have problems but I feel like I'm the only one with a wife who has given up. I know it's just me feeling sorry for myself.


I totally live through all of these things and have for a while. I look forward to separation so I can really move on.
Posted By: Vapo Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/08/17 06:47 AM
Separation was a godsend. It truly was. It was a bitter pill to swallow, but yes, things really picked up from there (I do not mean with the W, but with personal growth and development).
Posted By: maly Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/08/17 08:08 AM
Originally Posted By: Chris73
The title says it all folks. 2017 is here and it's time for me to drop the rope.
That sounds just like my story for the last 4 years,its amazing how so many story's are all most identicle,with the spouses having a lot of the same symptoms, just wish I found this great place sooner
My sitch has been well documented in many threads. The last one is here:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2721509

I don't want to rehash the details here, but I will say that the holidays were very stressful. My WW and I had 2 big relationship discussions. Both of them totally initiated by me, knowing full well that I was just making things worse, but still not accepting the fact that honesty, logic, and reasoning can't win back a WW. Suffice it to say that I believe my W is in the very thick fog of a PA/EA. I don't have hard evidence, but I know for sure that she stayed out all night on Jan 1st and was NOT at the location she claimed to be. The lies just keep piling up.

It has taken me two full months of posting on this board and reading Sandi2's comments to finally realize that my W still has my b@lls in a bag. She has absolutely no respect for me. All she feels for me is anger and resentment. Any friendliness on her part is simply to keep my b@lls in her possession, while we live under the same roof but separated.

She's getting away with murder. She does whatever she wants and knows that her home is still there, her kids are well taken care of, and if for some reason she wants back in the marriage, it's available. All the while, I swallow my pride, suffer silently, and pine away for this woman because I love her and I want to keep my family together.

But no more. I have read Sandi2's WW threads over and over again. And every time something else happens in my MR, I head to the board and Sandi2 has not only already predicted it, but explains why it happened and how to react. And yet I still ignore her advice... "Oh my sitch is different," I say to myself. Well actually, it isn't. It's textbook WW selfishness. So consider this my awakening. I guess I just didn't want to believe it.

Now in my defense I have tried to apply some of Sandi2's rules and the LRT, but I'm still very much attached to my WW and my actions are all perfectly calculated to illicit a reaction from her. I "act as if" I'm moving on with my life but it's not a very convincing act. And only until today did I realize that I really need to "act as if" the M is over, because regardless of where the two of us end up, the M really IS over.

But today I am committing to following Sandi2's rules and advice to the letter. I'm going to need a lot of help along the way so I implore all of you to chime in anytime. This thread will serve as a journal for me and I will try to post often. Obviously my ultimate goal is to try to jar my W out of her A fog and get her to start piecing. But this goal is very far off right now. What I really need to do immediately is reclaim my b@lls and make it clear to my WW that her free ride is over.

I have an appointment for an initial consultation with a lawyer on Friday. My goal is to convince my W that she should move out, but I need a backup plan when she refuses (and she will) and knowing what some of my basic rights are will help. Plan B will likely be the separation of finances and possibly her removal from my medical insurance. She doesn't have any chronic illness so there's no need for me to feel guilty.

If you've read any of my other threads you'll know that we had planned a trip to Disney World for the 2nd week in January and we both still plan to go despite the current situation. So I will continue to keep the peace at home and not bring up the changes I listed above until after we get back. I know it sounds like a cop-out, but I really want my kids to enjoy their first trip to Disney. There's no need to have a discussion about what's going to happen after we get back. It will just make the vacation more tense.

I have claim over the MBR and will keep it that way. My WW has been sleeping on the couch for about 3 weeks now. Over the holiday we spent more time together than Sandi2 advises, but that will stop now. And most importantly, no more R talks. I'm done. Nothing good has ever come out of any of them but because I have a "fix-it" mentality, I just keep trying. In addition to this I will try my best to not initiate any conversation and be brief when she initiates. This is really the hardest part because I have to remember to always be upbeat and positive, yet reserved and pulled back. This is very hard for me to do and many times I come off as cold or angry. This is what I need to work on the most. If she knows the sitch is still bothering me, she still has my b@lls.

Not sure what else to add at this point. I have a lot of changes to make for myself, to get my mojo back, to be the guy that my W initially fell in love with, even if she never comes back. I welcome all comments and advice, but mostly I ask for encouragement. This tough love is harder than anything else I've ever had to do.
Posted By: Chris73 Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/08/17 08:10 AM
Going to need some good advice today.

W approached me this morning to tell me that she was going to change the sheets on the MB and asked to switch with me because her back can't take the couch anymore (as Sandi2 predicted).

She wants to us to get another bed and put it downstairs for me to sleep on. She insists that she needs to be "on the same level as the kids" at night. So she expects me to sleep on the couch until this new bed can be purchased, which will be two to three weeks at the very least.

My initial response was a long pause, followed by, "let me think about it."

She followed up with some additional explaining, to which I responded:

"Do you really want to talk about this right now?"

(We were in the middle of getting the kids ready for the day which includes a birthday party for S8)

She didn't say anything else. So I looked at her and said, "You're telling me that you are going to change the sheets on the bed. The rest of what you've told me is unacceptable."

She said we'll talk later then.

I was really trying to keep things copacetic until we got back from Disney, but it looks like she's making a power play right now and as much as I now have this sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach, I know I'm going to have to respond with tough love. So if/when she brings it up again, I will simply say this:

"I have never kicked you out of our MBR, but you WILL NOT kick ME out of it."

Regardless of the rest of the discussion, I will continue to sleep there, even if she goes to bed before me. There's no lock on the MBR door.

My main worry is that I will either back pedal or get bitter and tell her to go sleep at the OM house if she wants a more comfortable bed. I don't want to do either of those.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I expect this conversation will be happening tonight...
Posted By: maly Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/08/17 08:11 AM
That sounds just like my story for the last 4 years,its amazing how so many story's are all most identicle,with the spouses having a lot of the same symptoms, just wish I found this great place sooner
Posted By: sandi2 Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/08/17 08:35 AM
Quote:
I just bit the bullet and ordered 3 sessions with a telephone coach.


I want to remind you that they will probably recommend a softer approach...... and they have not (to my knowledge) recognized the wayward W apart or in a distinct category that calls for a tougher approach. I just don't want you confused and spend your minutes in relating what some say on the board with what the coach may be saying. Let the coach guide you through the session and listen to what s/he has to say. From what I've read, most people feel better, even hopeful, after the phone sessions. so, make your minutes count. smile
Posted By: Seeker7 Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/08/17 10:09 AM
After the BD my W moved out 1 month later and I tried to keep her here. I had not yet started learning anything. Now after 3 months of her being out of the house and all that I have learned I count it as a blessing that she left. I just read the DR book a couple of weeks ago and found this sight. I did do a lot of other reading and talking to people before DR book. I already was following most of the 37 rules. Now that I am with out her in my home it actually has helped me more emotionally and on the GAL process. It allowed me to focus a lot more on what I need to do to become the best version of myself. It has also created some problems for her that she did no foresee. Nothing I did but circumstances of decisions that we make. I know that I have a long way to go and am dedicated to make the journey. So even though right now you think that it [censored] for her to move over time you will see that it will probably be more helpful toward your recover. Just like her seeing you triggers emotions it does go the other way. So me not seeing her much has helped my emotions to get off of the crazy roller coaster ride they were on. Now they are minor ups and downs. I do know for me is that not having her around all the time has really help but you would have never convinced me of that a few months ago.
Posted By: Chris73 Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/08/17 01:10 PM
Bumping just to get some eyes on my previous post...
Posted By: mvgfwd2 Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/08/17 01:34 PM
Don't leave the MBR. Don't help with getting or setting up another bed. Her problem, not yours.

I wouldn't say anything about the MBR being available for her to come back to. She knows you didn't kick her out so may seem like pursuing.
Posted By: Chris73 Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/08/17 02:26 PM
Ok, so I'm committed to not leaving the MB, but if she climbs in am I supposed to kick her out?
Posted By: mvgfwd2 Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/08/17 10:52 PM
For me I wouldn't be sleeping with someone who has an OM. In other words, if she's with someone else she isn't with me.
Posted By: Woke_Up Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/09/17 12:19 AM
It's a tricky one. Stick to your guns is easier said than done. I'm a living example of not being strong enough to apply tough love or stick to my guns.

You've made the right decision. Don't leave the MBR. I am back in it after being out of it, and now WW is moving out. (Sleep reasons, not EA, according to her).

Many of the things in your sitch echo mine. The only thing I cling onto is that the OM is in another country so there has been no PA yet. I am sure there will be at some point.

What are you thinking about the bed situation? Are you going to help her assemble it? Move things around for her. After finishing moving a mattress on Saturday that WW had already started moving, yesterday I decided to tell her I wasn't helping move the bed frame (she wanted me & SS to do it) as I wasn't having anything to do with her EA. That blew up into a most horrendous argument. Does your sitch follow this pattern, and if so, how do you deal with it?

How are your GAL activities going at the minute? Do you struggle with working long days? I'm similar in that I am out of the house close to 14 hours a day, and then want to see D when I get home. I imagine you are the same with your S. DO you find time on weekends? Does WW try and make you feel guilty?

Anyway, stay strong - I'll keep reading your sitch and cheering you on brother, you can do this.
Posted By: mvgfwd2 Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/09/17 06:49 AM
Don't be afraid of your WW getting angry at a situation she started and is perpetuating. That is her problem. Just let it roll off and don't react to the anger and walk away if she begins to spew.
Posted By: Chris73 Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/09/17 08:20 AM
Well, I failed miserably. I'm not sure if I'm cut out for this tough love approach. I'm actually pretty embarrassed posting this because all of you have given me such good advice, but in the end I was unable to follow through.

I was pre-occupied the entire day thinking about the conversation we were going to have about the sleeping arrangments. When we finally sat down I started with validation:

"I know this has been difficult for you and I'm sorry that you're having a difficult time with the sleeping arrangements."

"But I'm not leaving my bed and I'm not moving downstairs."

"I want to remind you that this separation and the decision to stop working on repairing our marriage was yours, not mine."

"I am done being taken advantage of. I can't stop you from disrespecting our marriage outside of our home, but I won't let you do it in my house."

And then the spewing began (as mvgfwd2 predicted). Honestly, I don't know why I expected her to just agree...

She cried. She yelled. She called me selfish. Told me that I was purposely trying to punish her. Told me that this is exactly what her friends told her would happen. Told me that my behavior was textbook. Told me that I was going to make things worse for our kids. Denied multiple times that she was having any kind of affair. Asked me to be reasonable. Told me that she HAS to sleep on the same level as our kids because if our D5 gets up in the middle of the night to look for her she would have to walk all the way down into the basement. Insisted that me moving downstairs is much more convenient for ME because all my clothes are down there, there's a shower down there, and I leave the house earlier than she does.

I continued to stand my ground and just kept saying, "I'm sorry you feel that way." Then she said, "I could throw this water bottle right at your head." Then she stormed off.

So far so good right?

Now I'm feeling terrible, my adrenaline is off the charts and she's in our MBR with the door shut.

But then she comes out and asks me to sit down and talk some more. This is where I made the first mistake that led to many more. I should have just said, "No, there's nothing more to talk about right now." But instead I said ok.

We sat back down and started talking about our next steps. Neither of us are willing to leave the house. When I mentioned the separation of finances, she didn't blink. I think she thinks she can handle 50% of everything on her income. We will definitely be doing that after the vacation.

But honestly guys, after that I just lost it. The adrenaline surge was gone and I was tired of fighting. I am a classic conflict avoider and my W has had years of experience with verbal conflict. I saw the anger and resentment in her eyes. The absolute repulsion that she has for me now. I saw no inkling of love left. I thought of my kids and how continuing to lock horns with her was going to affect them. And I shut down. We talked for a little longer, calmly this time. A few times we went down a path where I was tempted to go into "sales-pitch" mode. Insisting that we should try to get past these problems for the sake of the kids. That divorce is going to affect them in a negative way, no matter how resilient she thinks they are. But in the end I told her that I can't live like this anymore and that I would do what she asks.

I lost my nerve. I couldn't stick to guns. Any attempt to feel good that at least I had stood up for myself was gone. I slept downstairs and cried most of the night. Plagued with visions of me moving out, her living in the house with our kids, and eventually moving someone new in.

This morning when I left for work she was already up and doing things in the kitchen. She said good morning to me. I avoided her eyes. I didn't even want to look at her. I packed my stuff and left without a word. She immediately sent me a text that said, "Goodbye! Have a nice day!" I know you can't infer tone from a txt msg but clearly this was sarcastic.

I know I'm eff'd now. I can't see how there's going to be any coming back from this. I don't have the stomach to keep fighting with her like this and if I didn't care about my future with my kids I would just leave now. She knows that she will end up with everything she wants and uses the "impact on the kids" argument to trump any objection I try to make.

Today $ucks. The only silver lining is that I have a phone coaching session at noon. I'm going to need to be prepared with notes so that I can make the best use of my time. Hopefully I'll feel better after the call.

Thanks to everyone who gave advice and tried to cheer me on. I wish I had better news to report.
Posted By: BillyHo Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/09/17 08:56 AM
Man Chris sounds like a really tough day. Don't beat yourself up. We all make mistakes but don't for a second think that this is the one that's going to ruin everything. Just do the best you can and get better everyday.

I am pretty sure you will feel better after your coaching session. The coach will give you a direction to go in and that was big for me. The hardest thing is to cherry pick advice and wonder are you doing the right thing. At least with a coach you don't have to guess.
Posted By: mvgfwd2 Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/09/17 09:01 AM
Don't sweat it. Mistakes happen. You are thinking from a rational, loving perspective while she is coming from a crazy, selfish perspective. Keep in mind all the anger, guilt tripping, etc. is classic manipulation. She doesn't give 2 cr@ps about the consequences of her actions, only that she gets what she wants at all costs and will use every method of manipulation to get it. Please don't forget that.

Now what to do. Well, I don't think there is anything wrong with after a day to think about the situation to tell her that what you agreed to was a mistake and you are moving back to the MBR. Just do it. You don't need her approval to sleep in your own bed.

The best way to end the manipulation is to not react to it. Tears, anger, being nice, using sex, etc. You will get all of them. Just don't react, act as if, and keep to what is best for you and your kids. She was only nice today because she got what she wanted, didn't care about you really, just keeping you under her thumb where you belong.

You can do it, stand up for yourself. Find that pair you know you used to have. Conflict avoidance will not solve anything and will increase the lack of respect.
Posted By: mvgfwd2 Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/09/17 09:13 AM
As far as any more R talks with her, if she wants to do that again it might be best to just say..."unless you want to talk about how we fix our M I'm really not interested". Set the boundary, if she starts in a different direction, walk away. I really mean walk away. Just close your mouth and leave the room or house if necessary. Discussions about how to amically end the marriage are not in your best interest. You only need to say it once.
Posted By: Vapo Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/09/17 09:29 AM
Exfuctly!

Avoiding conflicts solves nothing. REclaim your balls and walk back in the MBR. If she wants out of the marriage, she can leave MBR, house and marriage. No need to help you there. Last night you saw exactly what happens if you do not stand up for yourself. You end up hating yourself. So reclaim MBR and start feeling better about yourself and do not give in to emotional blackmail. She will say/do/lie just about everything. You know the truth, don't allow her to gaslight you!
Posted By: Altair Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/09/17 09:36 AM
Chris,
Don't be so hard on yourself. You did pretty well. The coach hopefully will give you advice.
Also: just because you slept not in MBR for a night doesn't mean you have to stick with that. You can do a "I changed my mind" and try again.
She doesn't get to have all the control !!
Hang in there.
Posted By: Chris73 Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/09/17 11:49 AM
Just finished with the coaching session and everyone on this board is correct when they describe that the DB coaches will take a softer stance over the tough love advocated here.

I know Sandi2 makes a distinction between the walk-away wife and the wayward wife. But I tried to share as many details about my sitch with the coach (everything that I've already shared here, in summary at least, trying not to leave out any major events) and he describes my W as a WAW, but I realize that the DB coaches don't make the distinction between the two types.

He described my W's mindset this way:

"I know everything there is to know about my H. There's no mystery left. He's never going to change the behavior that I object to and even if he does, it will only be temporary in order to trick me back into the marriage. So the only way I can truly be happy is if I walk away from this marriage."

This description seems fair for the most part. Although I do agree with Sandi2's additional observations that my W has lost respect for me and is taking advantage of the situation to be selfish.

My coach advised that try to "lovingly detach." My attempt to fight over the MBR (3 separate times now), ask her to move out (on more than one occasion), and suggest that we separate finances come off as punitive in nature. And for a woman who already considers me to be selfish and self-centered, this might not be the best course of action.

My coach said that when interacting with my W I need to ask myself, "What is the negative reaction that she's expecting from me" and do the opposite.

He said that I should interact with her as if she were a sibling, friendly most of the time but if she starts a conflict just walk away.

He said I should start to regain some self-respect and not use every action I make to be an opportunity to show her that I'm changing.

He advised me to continue with the in-home separation since we've both agreed upon waiting until the end of the school year before physically separating. He says that I should try to use this extra time to my advantage instead of trying to speed up the divorce.

He advised me to NOT force the issue with the MBR and that if I'm going to sleep downstairs that I should take ownership of that space. Turn it into exactly what I would want it to be if I were a bachelor.

Most importantly he told me to be very aware of my mental state when I feel compelled to initiate R talks. It's obviously not the times when I feel positive and confident, but rather when I'm angry or sad or tired. Continuing to "sales pitch" the marriage is in fact a very selfish act because I'm basically saying to her, "I'm hurting. Fix this for me." So when I get the urge to start R talks I need to do something else, even if it means leaving the house.

So for now, I think I'm going to follow the coaches advice on all this. It's a much softer approach than the advice I've gotten here, but I'm starting to think that my tough love approach is just "more of the same" as far as my W is concerned. I will continue to make positive changes for myself and GAL and I will use the Disney trip to reinforce these changes by showing my W that I am fun to be around.

I'm sure some of you on the board will not agree with this approach and I totally respect that. But this feels better for me. I will report back as things progress.
Posted By: ForGump Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/09/17 11:58 AM
Originally Posted By: Chris73
He said that I should interact with her as if she were a sibling


Thanks for sharing all that, Chris. Makes a lot of sense. But one thing:

What would the coach say if you felt you were being castrated ... that your W is seeing you as a platonic, non-husband material?

I plan on asking that to my coach...
Posted By: Chris73 Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/09/17 12:10 PM
Yes, FG. This is the initial reaction I had as well. I suppose the theory is that I first need to defuse the anger and resentment between us so that my W feels like we're not at odds anymore. I don't believe that this by itself will earn back her respect and attraction to me. That may come more from my GAL actions when I'm finally able to exhibit strength, independence, and self-respect regardless of what my W chooses to do.
Posted By: Vapo Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/09/17 12:15 PM
Originally Posted By: Chris73
Just finished with the coaching session and everyone on this board is correct when they describe that the DB coaches will take a softer stance over the tough love advocated here.

I know Sandi2 makes a distinction between the walk-away wife and the wayward wife. But I tried to share as many details about my sitch with the coach (everything that I've already shared here, in summary at least, trying not to leave out any major events) and he describes my W as a WAW, but I realize that the DB coaches don't make the distinction between the two types.

He described my W's mindset this way:

"I know everything there is to know about my H. There's no mystery left. He's never going to change the behavior that I object to and even if he does, it will only be temporary in order to trick me back into the marriage. So the only way I can truly be happy is if I walk away from this marriage."

This description seems fair for the most part. Although I do agree with Sandi2's additional observations that my W has lost respect for me and is taking advantage of the situation to be selfish.

My coach advised that try to "lovingly detach." My attempt to fight over the MBR (3 separate times now), ask her to move out (on more than one occasion), and suggest that we separate finances come off as punitive in nature. And for a woman who already considers me to be selfish and self-centered, this might not be the best course of action.

My coach said that when interacting with my W I need to ask myself, "What is the negative reaction that she's expecting from me" and do the opposite.

He said that I should interact with her as if she were a sibling, friendly most of the time but if she starts a conflict just walk away.

He said I should start to regain some self-respect and not use every action I make to be an opportunity to show her that I'm changing.

He advised me to continue with the in-home separation since we've both agreed upon waiting until the end of the school year before physically separating. He says that I should try to use this extra time to my advantage instead of trying to speed up the divorce.

He advised me to NOT force the issue with the MBR and that if I'm going to sleep downstairs that I should take ownership of that space. Turn it into exactly what I would want it to be if I were a bachelor.

Most importantly he told me to be very aware of my mental state when I feel compelled to initiate R talks. It's obviously not the times when I feel positive and confident, but rather when I'm angry or sad or tired. Continuing to "sales pitch" the marriage is in fact a very selfish act because I'm basically saying to her, "I'm hurting. Fix this for me." So when I get the urge to start R talks I need to do something else, even if it means leaving the house.

So for now, I think I'm going to follow the coaches advice on all this. It's a much softer approach than the advice I've gotten here, but I'm starting to think that my tough love approach is just "more of the same" as far as my W is concerned. I will continue to make positive changes for myself and GAL and I will use the Disney trip to reinforce these changes by showing my W that I am fun to be around.

I'm sure some of you on the board will not agree with this approach and I totally respect that. But this feels better for me. I will report back as things progress.


I really do not see this ending well. I wish you lots of luck and patience buddy, you are going to need it......
Posted By: Gordie Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/09/17 12:34 PM
Originally Posted By: Chris73
Yes, FG. This is the initial reaction I had as well. I suppose the theory is that I first need to defuse the anger and resentment between us so that my W feels like we're not at odds anymore. I don't believe that this by itself will earn back her respect and attraction to me. That may come more from my GAL actions when I'm finally able to exhibit strength, independence, and self-respect regardless of what my W chooses to do.


The way I think of it is that there is a spectrum of comfort level/attraction that we all have experienced from our spouses (and this may change from day to day or week to week). In my mind, the goal setting should be related to how can we get from one level to the next (small, achievable steps). Maybe your coach is trying to get you to #3? Where are you on this spectrum?

1 - I am not comfortable in your physical presence

2 - I am comfortable in your physical presence, but your physical touch repels me

3 - I am comfortable with your platonic physical touch (what you might do with a friend or a relative)

4 - I am comfortable with your non-sexual physical touch (a kiss on the cheek, a hug, a snuggle, a back massage)

5 - I am comfortable with everything but sex

6 - What are you waiting for? Let's get it on!
Posted By: ForGump Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/09/17 12:43 PM
Gordie, love your theory. Thanks.

One Q though: in real life ... do potential lovers really go through steps 1-2-3 then 4? Don't we kind of go from 1 straight to 4? In other words, isn't path 1-2-3 a divergent path from 1-2-4?
Posted By: ForGump Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/09/17 12:44 PM
Originally Posted By: Vapo
I really do not see this ending well.

Vapo, why do you say this? Are you saying the platonic approach is the problem?

Or are you just saying the whole situation is FUBAR....?
Posted By: Chris73 Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/09/17 01:01 PM
Originally Posted By: Gordie
Maybe your coach is trying to get you to #3? Where are you on this spectrum?

1 - I am not comfortable in your physical presence

2 - I am comfortable in your physical presence, but your physical touch repels me

3 - I am comfortable with your platonic physical touch (what you might do with a friend or a relative)

4 - I am comfortable with your non-sexual physical touch (a kiss on the cheek, a hug, a snuggle, a back massage)

5 - I am comfortable with everything but sex

6 - What are you waiting for? Let's get it on!


Yes, right around #2 Gordie...
Posted By: Vapo Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/09/17 01:07 PM
One of the major points is that I believe firmly that you cannot nice your W back.

The W is riding high on infatuation hormones and clearly sees her husband as an obstacle to her happiness. Now the W is pleasant when the things are going her way, when the H is giving her all that she wants, the space, the time to chase the illicit affair and she is happiest is she can get the poor schmuck to pay for it as well (phone, insurance,...). So she has the appearance of being a good wife on one side and the LOVE addiction riding high on the other side. Her only aim is to end the marriage and live the love that she is convinced by now, she was robbed of. She is clearly delusional, but she will only come to realize that months or years from now (if at all).

The H giving in to all her demands will only make him look pathetic in her eyes. She could not possibly respect such a wuss. So if he gives in to her demands he will look pathetic in her eyes and a wuss, and if he stands his ground, she will be pissed at him. But the seed of respect will be planted...
Posted By: ForGump Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/09/17 01:13 PM
Vapo-- I welcome this contrasting point of view. I think it's important for us to think about it, and decide which applies in our particular situation.

I would love to see you go 12-rounds with MWD's DB coaches on this issue.
Posted By: mvgfwd2 Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/09/17 01:13 PM
If there is an OM in the mix the soft approach is less likely to achieve much. So you need to confirm if there really is an OM.
Posted By: Gordie Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/09/17 01:16 PM
Originally Posted By: Chris73
Originally Posted By: Gordie
Maybe your coach is trying to get you to #3? Where are you on this spectrum?

1 - I am not comfortable in your physical presence

2 - I am comfortable in your physical presence, but your physical touch repels me

3 - I am comfortable with your platonic physical touch (what you might do with a friend or a relative)

4 - I am comfortable with your non-sexual physical touch (a kiss on the cheek, a hug, a snuggle, a back massage)

5 - I am comfortable with everything but sex

6 - What are you waiting for? Let's get it on!


Yes, right around #2 Gordie...


So if you got to #3 that would be progress, right? It doesn't have to be the end destination.
Posted By: Gordie Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/09/17 01:18 PM
Originally Posted By: ForGump
Gordie, love your theory. Thanks.

One Q though: in real life ... do potential lovers really go through steps 1-2-3 then 4? Don't we kind of go from 1 straight to 4? In other words, isn't path 1-2-3 a divergent path from 1-2-4?


I think 1 and 2 are penalty boxes.

I think most potential lovers start at 3 or 4 and progress.
Posted By: Chris73 Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/09/17 01:26 PM
Originally Posted By: Gordie
Originally Posted By: Chris73
Originally Posted By: Gordie
Maybe your coach is trying to get you to #3? Where are you on this spectrum?

1 - I am not comfortable in your physical presence

2 - I am comfortable in your physical presence, but your physical touch repels me

3 - I am comfortable with your platonic physical touch (what you might do with a friend or a relative)

4 - I am comfortable with your non-sexual physical touch (a kiss on the cheek, a hug, a snuggle, a back massage)

5 - I am comfortable with everything but sex

6 - What are you waiting for? Let's get it on!


Yes, right around #2 Gordie...


So if you got to #3 that would be progress, right? It doesn't have to be the end destination.


Yes, very much progress at this point. I'd love to be at #3.
Posted By: BillyHo Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/09/17 01:38 PM
Hey Chris, I'm glad you at least have a game plan now. I think as you implement your strategy you will feel much more at ease. I may be wrong but I don't think you are very comfortable with the tough love strategy. Just remember that lovingly detaching doesn't mean being a doormat. You still need to set boundaries in some instances. Don't forget you are setting boundaries to protect yourself not to punish your W. If you're not comfortable sharing the MBR with her then make yourself your own MBR even better than hers. Hang in there buddy. Things will get better for you.
Posted By: BillyHo Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/09/17 01:40 PM
One more thing. Make sure you are being consistent in your actions. If you go back and forth with your approach she will not respond well at all. She needs to believe your actions and trust that your changes are genuine.
Posted By: Chris73 Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/09/17 09:28 PM
Came home tonight after a satisfying workout at the gym. Put the kids to bed and then sat down with my W to finalize the Disney itinerary.

I know this will make some of the board members wince (and I probably shouldn't continue calling what I'm doing the Great Sandi2 experiment), but in accordance with the advice given to me by my DB phone coach I got my W's attention and sat her down to apologize for the fight we had last night. I told her that the rage I saw in her eyes when I told her that I would not compromise was something that I never wanted to be responsible for again. And that if our primary goal right now is to ensure that our eventual divorce has the least impact on our kids we need to nurture whatever friendship remains between us and be kind to each other.

I didn't ask for a response nor did I sit around to wait for one. And I have to say that this felt good for me. It's certainly not the tough love approach that some of you are advocating and I respect that. But I think this works better for me right now.

And here's the most peculiar thing. Once that discussion was over and we sat down to discuss the Disney itinerary, I started to really pay attention to the things my W was saying and how she was acting. We were working together to discuss the plans and debating the pros and cons for some of the details.

And for the very first time I started thinking about how I might NOT want to try to save my marriage. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the way my W used to be. But it was clear through our interaction tonight that she's really changed, and not for the better. The selfishness that she disguises as her "new wide-awake self" is starting to show its true colors. She talks a good game, but I'm really starting to see that she's not thinking clearly. I also think that she drinks too much.

This gave me some clarity and might possibly have been a moment when I detached a bit further. Her unhealthy mental state and her traumatic childhood thrives on drama and conflict and I don't think she can ever be in a healthy relationship until she resolves these problems. For the longest time I thought that I would be able to help her with this, but I'm starting to realize that I can't. This is her road to travel and the best I can do is stand on the sidelines and cheer for her.

Thinking about my sitch in this way brings me a sense of peace that I haven't felt in quite a while.
Posted By: Chris73 Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/10/17 08:42 AM
Got an email this morning from Amazon confirming the purchase of the book "Am I in the Wrong Marriage?"

Like everything else in a marriage, our Amazon account is shared. We have Prime.

Not really sure how to feel about this one. W has sworn up and down over the past month that she's done. So either she's still on the fence and wants to see if this book helps push her to one side or the other. Or she will just cherry pick the sections of the book that appeal to her wayward state of mind and use them as reassurance.

Either way, it's not for me to be concerned with. I forwarded the email from Amazon to her with the message, "Hi. I'd like to request that we set a healthy boundary where you and I have separate Amazon accounts. I think it would help us maintain some privacy. Thanks."

Baby steps...
Posted By: Gordie Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/10/17 09:49 AM
***I didn't ask for a response nor did I sit around to wait for one. And I have to say that this felt good for me. It's certainly not the tough love approach that some of you are advocating and I respect that. But I think this works better for me right now.***

I think we all here need to read the book and take the advice with an open mind...but then apply what we think is best for our situation, for ourselves...

***And here's the most peculiar thing...for the very first time I started thinking about how I might NOT want to try to save my marriage. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the way my W used to be. But it was clear through our interaction tonight that she's really changed, and not for the better. The selfishness that she disguises as her "new wide-awake self" is starting to show its true colors. She talks a good game, but I'm really starting to see that she's not thinking clearly. I also think that she drinks too much...This gave me some clarity and might possibly have been a moment when I detached a bit further.***

Wow, I haven't gotten here yet; maybe that's why I'm having detachment issues. Trying to get to the following place myself:

***Her unhealthy mental state and her traumatic childhood thrives on drama and conflict and I don't think she can ever be in a healthy relationship until she resolves these problems. For the longest time I thought that I would be able to help her with this, but I'm starting to realize that I can't. This is her road to travel and the best I can do is stand on the sidelines and cheer for her...Thinking about my sitch in this way brings me a sense of peace that I haven't felt in quite a while.***

Chris73--thanks for sharing.
Posted By: Cadet Re: My WW and the Great Sandi2 Experiment - 01/10/17 11:16 AM
new thread

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2725003#Post2725003
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