Prior threads:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2719422#Post2719422http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2721485&page=1http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...t=11&page=1Wow, I can't believe I'm on my fourth thread. Thanks to all for joining me on this painful journey. For those new to the story:
W 42 and I 42 have been married 20 years, 5 kids.
2011-2016 After baby #5, W starts changing everything about her life: appearance, friends, religious beliefs, doesn't want to be a SAHM anymore, starts a business
September BD: I don't want to be married any more.
October: I am in love with you and POM (age 22, works for my W).
November: W consults with a L and starts making plans for S or D for after Christmas
So I'm starting off this thread with questions I have about Sandi's rules. The rules have been extraordinarily helpful to me and been a great reminder of some of the things not to do (chase, initiate relationship talks, etc.). I know these are more like guidelines than rules, so wanted your opinions on the ones I haven't been following:
9. Not scheduling dates - we have had a weekly date night for years; we are still doing these; and think these continue to be good times for us...
11. Not saying ILY - W still says ILY to me and I still say ILY to her...almost every day...
15. Don't be overly talkative - W and I are still quite talkative, most days...not R stuff, but just about everything else...
17. "Make your partner think that you have had an awakening and...you are moving on with your life..." ...not sure how to do this...short of rushing the S or D proceedings...help!
19. Do not be cold - I think when I try to detach, it comes across as cold...need to improve here...how to detach and be warm?
20. Hold off on M talks - I don't initiate, but my W does want to talk about our M at least once or twice a week
The plan...and am working with the L how to get this in writing...is that I have the ability to see them EVERY DAY...even on days when they are sleeping at my W's house...
Hit submit too early...W says she wants/needs/is agreeable to me seeing them every day...the questions that you guys raised yesterday is how does all this work when one, three, five years from now...when who knows what happens...OM/OW/re-marriage, etc.
Gordie, my friend, it seems like you are putting all your eggs in one basket with her and the kids. While she may say she's agreeable, do you TRUST her? After all, you don't trust her about the OM, so what makes you think you can trust her now?
A little reasoning: this past Easter the exSIL came up. The exW told me to take the he kids out for the day...and when I was on the way home, I texted saying we'll be there soon. Immediately the response came back of "why don't you stay another few hours?" Red flags went up. So, I called a friend and he said something isn't right...take pictures of everything, the house, all of it. Which I did. When the proceedings came around, the first thing she did was pull out pictures of the house - in an unlivable state. Her sister and her staged the whole thing to have a better chance with getting the kids. My lawyer tore her a new one. Why am I telling you this? Because just as you said, my ex said she wants/needs/is agreeable to me seeing them everyday. JUST AS YOURS DID. But when it became game time, her true colors came out. Be prepared.
And, like you, I foolishly thought she'd never stoop that low - I, too, wanted to give her anything in the hopes of getting her back. But, just as with you, mine was done and wanted nothing to do with me at all. Period. I'm not saying this to be a jackass about custody and all, I just don't want you to come out on the losing end of it all.
Oh, and the OM coming up to you and telling you stuff? Just a little too convenient. Way too convenient.
You are still wondering if your W has something real going on w/ the 22 year old.
la-la land: noun \ˈlä-ˌlä-\: a euphoric dreamlike mental state detached from the harsher realities of life
Your wife is in serious la-la land, Gordie. Her feelings are real, but she doesn't have a firm grasp on reality. Don't buy into any of her delusions.
About the child custody issue: you are perpetuating the unhealthy arrangement that go your marriage in trouble in the first place. She's going to keep calling all the shots, you accommodate and enable, and in the end she points the finger at you for not being adequate. She wants to have the fantasy of being independent while eating cake all day long, financially, emotionally, and sexually. If you had a 22 year old child graduate from college, who took advantage of all the freedom given to an adult -- sex, alcohol, whatever -- who reveled in being an independent adult ... and he said I'll do this as long as you support me financially and take care of all my needs, what would you say? That's what your wife is asking for: I'm going to enjoy all the freedom of a single, independent woman, AS LONG AS you support me in every major way. It's nonsense. Her wanting to stay, basically, a SAHM is part and parcel of that nonsense fantasy.
So what are your questions?
Here is what I see in many newcomer men who have a WW. He says this or that seems to work good, and he doesn't understand why he should change it if his WW likes it. I see it as really being what the LBH wants, and he doesn't want to give it up. I have seen many couples who had a friendly relationship and continued doing everything they had always done together. Most cheaters can participate in the MR......while conducting an affair. As long as the H goes along for the ride, then she is more than willing.....just as long as she have the OM, too. That seems to be the case with you.
Exactly what in the MR has changed for her? She continues to benefit from the M and have an A. Why would she give up either one? IMHO, you should not act as if nothing has happened.....b/c it certainly has. Your W is in an EA, and emotional affairs are very powerful and addictive. For you to continue as though she is not cheating, hints strongly that you are co-dependent in this relationship.
It is not enough to tell her that having an A with another man is not acceptable. Your actions have to tell her that you will not abide in a MR of three people. Your actions have to tell her that she doesn't get the date nights, the ILY, sex, etc., when she defiles the MR.
You need to wake up, Gordie. Stop playing along in her game. I am not saying you need to run out and file for D. There are other steps you can take first. You need to set boundaries and be prepared to S or D if your W won't end her A.
If you had dropped her when you first discovered or was told about her A, I think it would have snapped her around. However, you have dragged it on and have continued rewarding her for emotional infidelity. A woman will not respect a man who rewards her bad behavior. You don't know how to detach and be warm?! Why are you concerned about showing her warmth? Come on, Gordie! She is cheating on you and wants another man!
Gordie
----------
9. Not scheduling dates - we have had a weekly date night for years; we are still doing these; and think these continue to be good times for us...
-->just stop this one--by saying, "I don't want to do this anymore..." (you do not need to explain or defend...IMO)
11. Not saying ILY - W still says ILY to me and I still say ILY to her...almost every day...
--> Stop saying ILY.....(I am reconciling with my W for two months, but I do not say ILY yet.... she does everyday...but I am investing in the R but want to wait until I decide to say ILY and she respects that...)
15. Don't be overly talkative - W and I are still quite talkative, most days...not R stuff, but just about everything else...
--> Hmmm, just talk less....act like she is a checkout girl... brief, polite and to the point, but not emotional.... I think women can tell when me are attached emotionally or not... yo can be detached and polite...
17. "Make your partner think that you have had an awakening and...you are moving on with your life..." ...not sure how to do this...short of rushing the S or D proceedings...help!
--> goes with detachment...actions... for me it was fitness. I would run, lift weights and use a rowing machine about everyday...My W would come and look for me in the house, and I would be working out versus watching TV for example.
19. Do not be cold - I think when I try to detach, it comes across as cold...need to improve here...how to detach and be warm?
--> A checkout girl or waitress or flight attendant interacts with you and you are polite, not rude, but you are not attached to them.... it needs to be like that IMHO...
20. Hold off on M talks - I don't initiate, but my W does want to talk about our M at least once or twice a week
[/quote] -->> Simply say I am not interested in talking about that now... and again no explanation needed.
Now you have to practice a few times is my guess.... what will your W say when you are tough with her.... so be ready to stick to you answer...and simply repeat it, and then go on with some task....
For me, I said, people make their own choices, I do not own you, you are free to make your own choices, and I am letting you go now....
It was my tone or facial expression or something that caused her to "believe" me. I did not yell etc.. (I am a novice compared to others here, so just sharing what I did )
I think it took a day or two... but then she started actions to stay with me.
I hope this is helpful. My main advice is you got to get in to the zone in your head. You got to be this new guy---because, either way, win or lose, it is your best shot to win....and your best shot to be happy with how you handled it years from now...
Sandi says it---do what works
So what are your questions?
Here is what I see in many newcomer men who have a WW. He says this or that seems to work good, and he doesn't understand why he should change it if his WW likes it. I see it as really being what the LBH wants, and he doesn't want to give it up. I have seen many couples who had a friendly relationship and continued doing everything they had always done together. Most cheaters can participate in the MR......while conducting an affair. As long as the H goes along for the ride, then she is more than willing.....just as long as she have the OM, too. That seems to be the case with you.
Exactly what in the MR has changed for her? She continues to benefit from the M and have an A. Why would she give up either one? IMHO, you should not act as if nothing has happened.....b/c it certainly has. Your W is in an EA, and emotional affairs are very powerful and addictive. For you to continue as though she is not cheating, hints strongly that you are co-dependent in this relationship.
It is not enough to tell her that having an A with another man is not acceptable. Your actions have to tell her that you will not abide in a MR of three people. Your actions have to tell her that she doesn't get the date nights, the ILY, sex, etc., when she defiles the MR.
You need to wake up, Gordie. Stop playing along in her game. I am not saying you need to run out and file for D. There are other steps you can take first. You need to set boundaries and be prepared to S or D if your W won't end her A.
If you had dropped her when you first discovered or was told about her A, I think it would have snapped her around. However, you have dragged it on and have continued rewarding her for emotional infidelity. A woman will not respect a man who rewards her bad behavior. You don't know how to detach and be warm?! Why are you concerned about showing her warmth? Come on, Gordie! She is cheating on you and wants another man!
Thank you sandi2. I took some time off from posting for the holidays, so here's a quick update:
W can't/doesn't want to pursue OM while still with me. To me, this one-sided fantasy EA is not as bad as a mutual EA or PA (though still bad). She still admits that the POM may not reciprocate (I sense there was something that may have happened between them, but I don't ask about the POM).
Thus, the holidays were all of us together as a family doing family things. It was a generally pleasant time for all. She initiated one R discussion. W is not a yeller, but she decided to really let her anger out--and we both felt better afterwards (one of the issues in our R is that she doesn't feel heard). She actually asked me to let her go, to let go of the marriage...and I said yes, I'm letting you go, letting go of the marriage.
My vacation reading included two books recommended by the DB coach (5 Love Languages, How to Improve Your Marriage without Talking About it) and one book about Codependency. Some of you asked if I was codependent and I honestly didn't know what that meant. Reading about it, I think I have some codependent tendencies, as does my W. I'm learning a lot about myself and my R with my W and others.
Logistical/legal stuff:
Her L advised her that I can stop paying her alimony if she co-habitates or marries. This scared her, as W and POM currently don't make enough money to support W's lifestyle.
W has moved away from wanting D to wanting S, not sure of all the reasons why, maybe a good sign, maybe just more advantageous to her from her perspective. I told W I don't want either, but won't stand in her way or drag my feet, so I have my follow-up appointment with my L to draft a S agreement.
Agree with all of the comments here that there is no path to R through in-house S, so after our S agreement is signed, I will move out. Part of me is dreading the S phase, but part of me is also looking forward to it.
Gordie,
I hear some strength in your voice. It appears your mindset is evolving into a stronger state.
W and POM currently don't make enough money to support W's lifestyle.
I could be very wrong but I'm willing to bet you a quarter pounder with cheese, a large fry and a large coke with extra ice that W co-habitating with POM is pure fantasy in your W's head, let alone any type of a hook-up with him.
Of course she might connect with some other chump, but the 22 year old employee is pure fantasy.
la-la land: noun \ˈlä-ˌlä-\: a euphoric dreamlike mental state detached from the harsher realities of life
Your wife is in serious la-la land, Gordie. Her feelings are real, but she doesn't have a firm grasp on reality. Don't buy into any of her delusions.
ForGump--you actually writing this down helped me a lot...I get sucked into her delusions...and this was like a 2x4...
Reading through all of these stories, there does seem to be some conflicting advice from my DB coach (trying to build connection) and the vets (tough love). What is common is the advice about detachment. I need to keep reading and learning more about detachment. I'm improving in my detachment, but clearly have a long way to go.
Question for all is how does DB apply to my situation of what I think is a one sided fantasy EA with POM? It's different than an actual two way EA or PA.
Biggest take away from Five Love Languages is that my W's is quantity time and I didn't give it to her (it was the lowest ranked for me). My top was words of affirmation and my W doesn't give that to me. Since BD, we spend a lot more time together and W has responded well to that including comments that she wished we had discussed and made these changes earlier.
Another question re how to respond to my W. Sometimes she throws out provocative assertions like "You will be remarried before I will, within three years." What's the right, detached response? I want to show I'm listening but I don't want to get emotional or say the wrong thing or get my answer used against me.
Another question re how to respond to my W. Sometimes she throws out provocative assertions like "You will be remarried before I will, within three years." What's the right, detached response? I want to show I'm listening but I don't want to get emotional or say the wrong thing or get my answer used against me.
Those kinds of statement need no response at all.
Another question re how to respond to my W. Sometimes she throws out provocative assertions like "You will be remarried before I will, within three years." What's the right, detached response? I want to show I'm listening but I don't want to get emotional or say the wrong thing or get my answer used against me.
Those kinds of statement need no response at all.
So just say nothing at all?
Another question re how to respond to my W. Sometimes she throws out provocative assertions like "You will be remarried before I will, within three years." What's the right, detached response? I want to show I'm listening but I don't want to get emotional or say the wrong thing or get my answer used against me.
Those kinds of statement need no response at all.
So just say nothing at all?
Yes nothing at all.
I might say,
Hmmm, I don't think about those type of things....
Reading through all of these stories, there does seem to be some conflicting advice from my DB coach (trying to build connection) and the vets (tough love).
Building a connection and tough love are not mutually exclusive concepts. I am not sure who of the vets have been giving you what advice, but I think part of the disconnect may simply be the textual format of a MB versus having a conversation over the phone. From the vets who have gone through these types of situations, they know the importance of setting appropriate boundaries (for yourself) and building yourself up so that you are ready for a healthy relationship with your spouse...so that you don't gloss over fixing the problems that may have led to marital strife, leaving you more likely to repeat them.
But you most definitely can build yourself up and build a connection at the same time. The problem lies in building that connection at the expense of building yourself up. After all, "tough love" is still love, and it isn't for toughness' sake, it is for the sake of YOU.
-PM
Another question re how to respond to my W. Sometimes she throws out provocative assertions like "You will be remarried before I will, within three years." What's the right, detached response? I want to show I'm listening but I don't want to get emotional or say the wrong thing or get my answer used against me.
Those kinds of statement need no response at all.
So just say nothing at all?
It's a ridiculous prediction and she's likely making it so that you can reassure her that you are still on her hook. She probably wants the comfort of knowing that her options are still open.
But you can't and shouldn't say that. So say nothing.
Don't water the weeds.
-PM
Reading through all of these stories, there does seem to be some conflicting advice from my DB coach (trying to build connection) and the vets (tough love).
Building a connection and tough love are not mutually exclusive concepts. I am not sure who of the vets have been giving you what advice, but I think part of the disconnect may simply be the textual format of a MB versus having a conversation over the phone. From the vets who have gone through these types of situations, they know the importance of setting appropriate boundaries (for yourself) and building yourself up so that you are ready for a healthy relationship with your spouse...so that you don't gloss over fixing the problems that may have led to marital strife, leaving you more likely to repeat them.
But you most definitely can build yourself up and build a connection at the same time. The problem lies in building that connection at the expense of building yourself up. After all, "tough love" is still love, and it isn't for toughness' sake, it is for the sake of YOU.
-PM
PM,
Thanks for your comments. I have read yours on other threads and I heed your hard earned wisdom.
I agree that a phone conversation with a DB coach allows for more nuance than a message board. I think where I and others like me struggle is that my failures in my marriage has been that I have been too emotionally unavailable/disconnected with my W and haven't spent enough time with her, listening to her and understanding her. So my DB coach recommends a 180 where we spend more time together, where I listen to her, where I am emotionally connecting with her. I'm doing these things which W likes but also trying to let her go, accept her decisions and detach (I agree with you that both can be done, even if they seem contradictory on the surface). Some vets say LRT or go dark/dim. This is where I get confused. Some say do not go to the friend zone. Some say remain friends. Some say keep having MR, other say don't do it, and others say do what feels right. I'm okay with contradictory advice as I think ultimately we all need to make our own decisions based upon our individual situations. I appreciate the advice that contradicts my own inclinations as it makes me re assess what I am doing and has helped me stop some of the stupid things I have been doing and thinking.
Gordie-
I'm no vet but have been vocal in your thread. I find that the more someone's situation resonates with my own plight, the more passionately I write. Perhaps because I'm writing more to persuade myself than anyone else.
Anyhow, I do understand that warmth and toughness do often appear to conflict. I think getting the right mix of the two is probably one of the hardest things to learn of the DB approach. It feels to me a bit like a zen koan. It's puzzling yet it makes sense intuitively, and there aren't quite the right words to explain it.
Thinking more reductively and rationally, though, I think the key is to be warm within the boundaries you set but be clear-eyed and tough about the consequences of venturing outside of that. Give her your heart; but not your soul.
More concretely, in your situation, I think it means that as long as you are married and she has not crossed a boundary you set, treat her with warmth and respect. But, if she crosses a boundary or is fantasizing about life beyond that boundary, then give her tough love. Don't fuel her fantasies by letting her think that she can have her cake and eat it too. No, she can't go sleep with a 22 year old employee and keep getting all your love. Let her know that once she fires you as her husband, you will indeed no longer be her husband. You are not going to wait around and love her and serve her at her beck and call. You are going to move on and live your life.
Does that make sense? Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. I'm no pro/vet. But, as I said, your situation resonates a lot with mine -- more so in the last few days.
About your wife's comment about you re-marrying first: obviously, that betrays her insecurity and doubt about the fork in the road she is wanting, dying, to take. She wants you to comfort her by saying, "Oh no, I doubt it'll be me first; you'll find someone great first." Or "Oh no, I'll love you forever," the subtext being, I'll be your second-choice and wait around forever in case your first choice doesn't work out.
Maybe simply not responding ("not watering weeds" -- I like that!) is the wiser thing to do, but I'd be tempted to stick a small hand shovel under that weed by replying, something like, "Well, maybe. I might meet someone great quickly. Who knows. Regardless, once you let me go as a husband, I'm not going to keep living like one. I will move on and build my own life without you."
I wish both of us strength.
Did you actually read DB or DR? You seem to be mixing up the concepts
***Don't fuel her fantasies by letting her think that she can have her cake and eat it too. No, she can't go sleep with a 22 year old employee and keep getting all your love. Let her know that once she fires you as her husband, you will indeed no longer be her husband. You are not going to wait around and love her and serve her at her beck and call. You are going to move on and live your life.***
ForGump, you have given me awesome encouragement and advice and I appreciate it. What you write above is the truth. I haven't known how to express this, but in one of our conversations, I did tell her that I want to be husband and not her friend. I think she understood that.
***your situation resonates a lot with mine -- more so in the last few days.***
ForGump, Why so?
***About your wife's comment about you re-marrying first: obviously, that betrays her insecurity and doubt about the fork in the road she is wanting, dying, to take. She wants you to comfort her by saying, "Oh no, I doubt it'll be me first; you'll find someone great first." Or "Oh no, I'll love you forever," the subtext being, I'll be your second-choice and wait around forever in case your first choice doesn't work out. Maybe simply not responding ("not watering weeds" -- I like that!) is the wiser thing to do, but I'd be tempted to stick a small hand shovel under that weed by replying, something like, "Well, maybe. I might meet someone great quickly. Who knows. Regardless, once you let me go as a husband, I'm not going to keep living like one. I will move on and build my own life without you."***
ForGump, I'm guilty as charged. I have said in the past that I will love her forever, that I want us to reconcile...if not now, then in the future, that I'm not interested in other women. I say these things because they are honestly what I feel right now, but not responding seems to be the wiser, consensus approach.
Did you actually read DB or DR? You seem to be mixing up the concepts
I read DR and have a DB coach...but certainly agree that I'm not mastering these concepts...help!
Another question re how to respond to my W. Sometimes she throws out provocative assertions like "You will be remarried before I will, within three years." What's the right, detached response? I want to show I'm listening but I don't want to get emotional or say the wrong thing or get my answer used against me.
Those kinds of statement need no response at all.
So just say nothing at all?
It's a ridiculous prediction and she's likely making it so that you can reassure her that you are still on her hook. She probably wants the comfort of knowing that her options are still open.
But you can't and shouldn't say that. So say nothing.
Don't water the weeds.
-PM
In your first thread, you wrote something that I could have written:
***If I am a good man, a good father and a good friend, perhaps one day I can be seen as a good mate. If the latter is simply a bridge so broken beyond repair that it cannot be mended enough for her to ever cross again, then at least I will be a good man, father, and friend. And I can rest my head on my pillow at night knowing that.***
With the perspective of time, what do you think of that statement now?
That statement seems dead on. Thanks for finding it.
-PM
PM/Gordie--
I have to question that quote a bit ... many of us here show up w/ wives saying "I don't feel attracted to you any more."
I think there is a strong conscious and subconscious connection among the identities you list:
- good man
- good father
- good friend
- good mate
If your spouse feels that you don't quite measure up as a mate, there is a good chance you've fallen short as a good man, father and friend.
Or is that a wrong premise? Maybe you can be a great man, father and friend, but the romantic/sexual chemistry just dries up after a few years, and that's to be accepted as a normal course of events?
Or something happened in the marriage that the spouse cannot, or refuses to, get past. Being a good man, father, and friend is something we can control RIGHT NOW, whereas whatever happened in the past cannot be changed, nor can we change our spouse.
-PM
I would contend that there is something you can do to be a good mate. And it includes being the other identities (man, father, friend), but there are additional things that make someone a good mate.
"Did you actually read DB or DR? You seem to be mixing up the concepts"
Start with your list of goals and the actions and timeline that you are going to achieve those goals.
I would contend that there is something you can do to be a good mate. And it includes being the other identities (man, father, friend), but there are additional things that make someone a good mate.
Which additional things?
You can be a good man, a good father, and a good friend ... who is a castrated platonic friend.
A good mate is also a good sexual partner.
I think keeping some of that magic is at odds with the other three things. I'm not saying you can't be all. Just that if you focus too much on being a good friend, that can erode your sexual chemistry.
You can be a good man, a good father, and a good friend ... who is a castrated platonic friend.
A good mate is also a good sexual partner.
I think keeping some of that magic is at odds with the other three things. I'm not saying you can't be all. Just that if you focus too much on being a good friend, that can erode your sexual chemistry.
ForGump--Agree...have been working on the sexual chemistry. W complained sex for years has been boring, routine, not good/bad, so part of my post-BD, post-DB 180 has been to change that dynamic/her view. How? Increase non-sexual touching, increase emotional connection, and allow for sexual tension to build so much that she would initiate...since BD, sex has been a lot less frequent (twice a month), but it's been really, really passionate, a huge improvement...for me, this has been one of the things I wanted to change in the being a man only a fool would leave department...she has noted the improvement...
PatientMan--I have spent hours reading all of your threads from 2013 and 2014...are there more? I want to know what's happened since then. I have learned so much from your posts and while our situations are different, there are parallels:
*W gives a lot of mixed signals re loving me, wanting to continue to be BFFs, but still going full steam ahead for S or D
*W has expressed that it is possible for us to R in the future...but only after she is able to become more independent (like your XW, she says she went directly from her father's house to my house...unlike your XW, my W has a POM in mind)
*W has wanted to continue the physical, sexual R post-BD...and says she wants to continue it after S or D (was very appreciative of your candor on this subject; I was feeling like I was the only one in this boat)
*W comes to me in waves...closer, then backs off...closer, then backs off (also liked your sqirrel metaphor)
*Gordie is trying to detach...but clearly still very attached...I am still on her roller coaster...I still think about her and our situation all the time...I'm driving in my car, but still staring at her car, wondering what she's doing over there
it's been really, really passionate, a huge improvement...
Oh man. Kudos. Totally envious.
"Did you actually read DB or DR? You seem to be mixing up the concepts"
Start with your list of goals and the actions and timeline that you are going to achieve those goals.
Thanks for the prompt. It made me realize I hadn't considered my goals since when I first read the book two months ago, so here's a first draft (open to suggestions):
*I want to stop pursuing/putting R pressure on my W (not initiating calls and texts, R talks, or sexual activity...let her do the initiating)
*When we are physically together, I want to be emotionally present to my W (look her in the eye when she talks to me, really focus on what she is saying, listening to her and showing that I understand what she is saying, not getting distracted, being open to whatever she wants to discuss or feelings she wants to express...this is an ongoing issue)
*I want her to give me some words of affirmation (I haven't actually asked for this directly other than she read 5LL years ago and she is aware that I just did...but these have actually started to trickle in...last week was about my appearance...this week it was about the car I bought her this spring...this is an ongoing issue)
*I want to be emotionally detached from the S process and discussions (this just started and is a new challenge; I have been quickly and professionally providing documents and responses to all questions; business like, not emotional and she has been appreciative...this is a January issue, may take longer, not sure...)
*If I do move out...then I want to be back home by...June (this is a stretch goal...but why not shoot for it?)
it's been really, really passionate, a huge improvement...
Oh man. Kudos. Totally envious.
Has anyone else experienced this? My W has been holding in so much resentment and anger for so many years that the BD was actually a relief to her? It lifted a weight off her shoulders and she suddenly started to become more open and honest with me. This plus the changes I have made to be more emotionally present to her has resulted in a much greater sense of connection...which has translated into the bedroom...
YET...we are still on the road to S or D...I love the MWD video where she urges the W who drops the bomb to not walk away at this point...after all these years of resentment building and you are actually doing something, you finally have your H's attention and he's willing to make all of the changes that you want...now is not the time to end things!
"I want her to give me some words of affirmation"
This is the only actual 'goal' you have listed. Now what steps have you done to try and achieve that goal and how long of a time are you going to see if your plan works before maybe changing it?
You need a more comprehensive list of goals.
"I want her to give me some words of affirmation"
This is the only actual 'goal' you have listed. Now what steps have you done to try and achieve that goal and how long of a time are you going to see if your plan works before maybe changing it?
You need a more comprehensive list of goals.
Hmmm...thanks for the help...let's try again...re-reading Step Number 2 in DR:
Smaller items:
I want to talk to her one-on-one about non-logistical (and non R) things for at least 15 minutes per day. My steps have been to make sure I am available to her to do this and that she knows she has my full attention. Usually, this includes pouring a glass of wine and sitting down together in the evening without the children. I would say I am achieving this about 4x per week and the other days she is working at home or she is not at home. We have longer talks on date night, which are still happening 1x per week.
I want her to initiate sex. My steps have been to increase emotional connection, increase non-sexual touching, giving her alone time at the end of the day to de-stress, and going to bed at the same time. This has resulted in her initiating about 2x per month since BD.
I want her to give me some words of affirmation. My steps have been to tell her that this is important to me and to thank her when she does it. She now does it unprompted about 1x per week.
Are these better articulated goals?
I'm not writing down bigger things like...I don't want to get S or D...or I want her to end her R with POM...
Sometimes when I know I am going to see W alone, I get anxious, not knowing what to expect. This doesn't happen all the time, but sometimes I just get a sinking feeling in my stomach. I know I need to detach. I know I need to let go. This is so exhausting.
Gordie I just read through your sitch quickly. WOW. Its like a flash back from my own story!
You are getting mixed advice from your coach (build connections) and from folks here (tough love). I was in the exact same position also...
Personally my advice to you would be to stick with your coach. I did what my coach advised and things worked out.
But there is still lots of things to be learned from the good people here. They are simply challenging you, not trying to tell you what to do with your life. They are challenging you to make some changes, to tip the balance a little, and the outcome of such "rocking the boat slightly" would make it easier to decipher the real intentions of your wife.
To me it sounds like:
she doesn't want to leave.
she wants to be SAHM
she wants you to wait
she uses the excuse "this is what our R needs to grow"
Heard all these before brother. It is as ForGump said, shes in La La land. Its where all WW/MLC people go to congregate with like minded people who support their nonsense. The 22 year old OM is there too, and in that land there is no need for money and kids don't exist (because Mr Nice Guy will look after them... thats you)
Its an uncomfortable situation to be in, and I can relate my brother. I've been exactly where you are.
Also, I'd be suspicious of the idea that she "doesn't want to start something with OM until you are separated". I would bet its already happening.
No one is leaving a marriage for something they aren't vested in. It can happen very quickly. My wife started to talk to a guy and within 1 week she was sure he was her "sole mate". Its a sickness that your wife is in, and you shouldn't believe what she says.
Remember Cadets advice:
"Believe none of what they say and only half of what you see".
SM34--thank you so much for the encouragement. I could ask you a million questions bu will limit myself:
***You are getting mixed advice from your coach (build connections) and from folks here (tough love). I was in the exact same position also...Personally my advice to you would be to stick with your coach. I did what my coach advised and things worked out. But there is still lots of things to be learned from the good people here. They are simply challenging you, not trying to tell you what to do with your life. They are challenging you to make some changes, to tip the balance a little, and the outcome of such "rocking the boat slightly" would make it easier to decipher the real intentions of your wife.***
Thank you, this puts things in perspective.
***To me it sounds like:
she doesn't want to leave.***
What do you mean? She says she wants me to leave the home. I said I will not until we legally S or D.
***she wants to be SAHM***
Once my youngest became school age, it enabled my W to start her business, but she still spends a lot of time taking care of the kids and the home. She is a superlative home maker and mother, but has said that it's not enough for her. She wants a vocation outside the home and not just any vocation. She wants to be the boss and to be fabulously successful and rich and famous. She resents the fact that she has been a SAHM while I have had a rich and rewarding career, particularly because she thinks she is smarter and more talented than I am.
***she wants you to wait***
I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean she wants me to wait re dating other women? Do you think that's why she keeps saying that I'm going to re marry before she does? Maybe so, but I also suspect that she thinks I'm incapable of living without a woman to care for me.
*** she uses the excuse "this is what our R needs to grow"***
What do you mean? Yes, she says that. Is this just a manipulation for me to go along with her plan and keep my hope of R alive?
***Heard all these before brother. It is as ForGump said, shes in La La land. Its where all WW/MLC people go to congregate with like minded people who support their nonsense. The 22 year old OM is there too, and in that land there is no need for money and kids don't exist (because Mr Nice Guy will look after them... thats you) ***
This made me laugh...and cry.
***Also, I'd be suspicious of the idea that she "doesn't want to start something with OM until you are separated". I would bet its already happening.***
Yes, I know this is possible, particularly because they spend time alone with each other when I am at work and the kids are at school. She says that they haven't even had a R defining talk and while she thinks POM has romantic interests she doesn't know for certain.
***No one is leaving a marriage for something they aren't vested in. It can happen very quickly. My wife started to talk to a guy and within 1 week she was sure he was her "sole mate". Its a sickness that your wife is in, and you shouldn't believe what she says.***
She says she is in love with me and POM at the same time, that we are both her soul mates. She says I'm not replaceable but that no one man can meet her needs. POM and I are opposites in every way. The biggest relational difference is that W feels I act in a dominant way towards her and POM acts in a submissive way.
Gordie-- why don't you just talk to this 22 year old fella? Put this question to rest.
Gordie-- why don't you just talk to this 22 year old fella? Put this question to rest.
I appreciate your concern and have thought about this a lot but really don't think a confrontation will do any good. I do think the POM is a symptom of the bigger MLC and marital disconnection issues.
Update from the Twilight Zone:
So at the same time my W is asking for a S agreement, W has also suggested we plan a weekend getaway for just the two of us this spring.
Thus the insanity of the wayward mind. My WH was the same way with OW, as a matter of fact he asked to go bowling the day after he said he wanted two wives. He was perplexed as to why I said I had not slept a wink in over 24 hours and NO, I don't feel like bowling with you. He said he felt it was possible to love two women equally. Um, sure.
So if you're going to be a purist then follow MWD and your coach's advise and do relationship building things. If your wife suggests you guys go out together then take her up on it. But she has to do the planning, she needs to invest herself. Don't do it for her. While you're out with her don't initiate relationship talks...just BE there and soak up the moment.
Thus the insanity of the wayward mind. My WH was the same way with OW, as a matter of fact he asked to go bowling the day after he said he wanted two wives. He was perplexed as to why I said I had not slept a wink in over 24 hours and NO, I don't feel like bowling with you. He said he felt it was possible to love two women equally. Um, sure.
So if you're going to be a purist then follow MWD and your coach's advise and do relationship building things. If your wife suggests you guys go out together then take her up on it. But she has to do the planning, she needs to invest herself. Don't do it for her. While you're out with her don't initiate relationship talks...just BE there and soak up the moment.
Good suggestion re making her do something to make this happen. I usually do all planning for these types of things. It's weird on the surface but also because when W and I go on a weekend together the main thing we do is stay in the hotel room and ML.
Gordie the more you talk the more you and your W sound like me and my W.
We go out of town to say in hotels and ML and order room service. That's been our thing for almost two decades.
She was also a SAHM who built up a lot of resentment and often had "suggestions" as to how she could be doing better than I. This is part of how the WW convinces herself that you aren't such a catch after all.
But she wants you. And she wants the OM. We had this kind of dynamic too. It's her being indecisive. Don't worry about this right now because it's beyond your control
The OM is complete opposite to you. It's ALWAYS like this. If you don't drink, he's a drinker. If you don't like tattoos, he has full body tattoos. If you are against guns, he has racks full of guns. If you are successfully, he is most certainly a loser with a dead end job and no career. The OM is ALWAYS the low lying fruit picked from the lowest hanging branches. A bottom feeder who has no issues with flirting with married women.
Your sitch is progressing according to the script. Nothing out of the ordinary here
Your coach gave you the same advice I was given, and my sitch was almost EXACTLY like yours. Light touch in a subtle way is a powerful thing. You have the advantage over OM. You have shared history with her. You have shared kids. You know her better than he does. And, he's a kid himself!
She's stringing you along as far as her saying she doesn't know if OM is interested. She knows he is. And they've fooled around. I can almost bet my money on that. Is that a deal breaker for you or can you look past it for an R?
I'll be back later with more questions.
***She was also a SAHM who built up a lot of resentment and often had "suggestions" as to how she could be doing better than I. This is part of how the WW convinces herself that you aren't such a catch after all.***
Glad to hear I'm not the only one.
***But she wants you. And she wants the OM. We had this kind of dynamic too. It's her being indecisive. Don't worry about this right now because it's beyond your control.***
Yes, I was too focused on OM at the beginning but the last month we haven't discussed him at all.
***The OM is complete opposite to you. It's ALWAYS like this. If you don't drink, he's a drinker. If you don't like tattoos, he has full body tattoos. If you are against guns, he has racks full of guns. If you are successfully, he is most certainly a loser with a dead end job and no career. The OM is ALWAYS the low lying fruit picked from the lowest hanging branches. A bottom feeder who has no issues with flirting with married women.***
Gosh, you got it right...even the tattoos!
***Your sitch is progressing according to the script. Nothing out of the ordinary here***
Wow
***Your coach gave you the same advice I was given, and my sitch was almost EXACTLY like yours. Light touch in a subtle way is a powerful thing. You have the advantage over OM. You have shared history with her. You have shared kids. You know her better than he does. And, he's a kid himself! ***
I hope you're right.
***She's stringing you along as far as her saying she doesn't know if OM is interested. She knows he is. And they've fooled around. I can almost bet my money on that. Is that a deal breaker for you or can you look past it for an R?***
I hope you're wrong, but yes, it's forgiveable in my book.
***I'll be back later with more questions. ***
Hit me. I'm shocked you know my situation so well.
Definitely don't focus on OM. And don't talk to her about him. The single guy type OM who is in an active A with a married woman is not the threat. He isn't taking this seriously. And when she's with him she mentions you (it's inevitable since you share kids) and it causes him to be insecure. Don't fixate on that kind of loser. He's just as broken as she is, if not more so. No confidant alpha male type guy is going for a married woman. I would bet all my money he's having some kind of crisis of his own and she's his bandaid as much as he is hers.
The threat to your marriage and to your family right now is you. You are your biggest hurdle. Her situation will blow on her at some point, our age and our experience tells us it's inevitable. The question is what happens after that.
OM is a crutch. He's helping her feel better about what she's doing. He's what they call an enabler. He's telling her she needs to look out for herself and her happiness, she's telling him stories that are based on a heavily re written history. A sad story of how she was never happy with you. She never loved you. And you never treated her well. All a complete load of BS.
She also has a friend or two who are doing the same. Look out for those too. They are usually recently divorced or never married type who want to bring another recruit onboard their train wreck if a life. Your wife will know which of her friends are supporting her poor choices and she will gravitate to them. The ones who challenge her to look within herself for answers to why she's unhappy, those are her real friends. But she will stay away from those right now. It cramps her style to be with those losers...that's what she tells herself. They don't really know her as well as the friends who support her cut and run. The reality is the opposite. And she will realize that one day.... but not soon. The enabling friends are sometimes called "orbiters". They orbit your wife and support her decision and want to be a part of the new and improved her. Don't try to talk to her about these things because it doesn't work. She'll think you are trying to control her and she'll put you in the group that doesn't understand her.
You mentioned she says she's clear on what she wants. If she was clear she would be long gone, like many of the wives in here. What makes your situation similar to mine is that she isn't gone. And in a lot of ways things are about the same between you. With the exception of the third wheel.
The coaches have the right idea in my opinion. Many will try to convince you to blow up her world. Kick her out. Changes the locks. But I think there is a reason why coaches tell you to try to build a connection with her rather than moving quickly to distance and end this stale mate. And the reason is that she is one foot in and one foot out. If you push her she will shift the other foot out. If you build connections she will first lift the outside foot up into the air then try to figure out where she's going to drop it. You want to be the best decision.
This is NOT competing with OM. This is not about being better than him because we already know you are. Your wife is not trying to decide between OM and You, she's trying to decide YOU or NOT YOU.
Now. We've gone through all the thought process for your wife and for OM. Let's focus on you for a minute.
What would you say is the single most important problem in your marriage?
Does your wife take anti depressants? To me those drugs are the root of the divorce issue in the world today.
don't think a confrontation will do any good.
Sorry to be stuck on this but ... My MLC/WW had a full blow delusional EA with an OM, but backed off after I immediately punctured that delusion. I just did not think it was good for her mental health to hang on to an absolutely delusional view of reality.
Anyway, my suggestion isn't really to have a confrontation, fists cocked, ready to punch the SOB. In fact, I believe the poor young man is a completely unwilling pawn in your W's delusion, feeling totally weirded out that his boss is coming onto him, and will be relieved to know that you are sympathetic to his plight.
What is there to gain? One, I get the sense that you buy into your W's delusional fantasy; and I think just talking to the fellow will help you get a better footing on reality. Two, after you talk to him, you may be able to find a way to gently but firmly shine some light on your W's delusion. Get her back to reality.
I'm not trying to bludgeon you with my logic. But I respectfully submit for your consideration. You know best what's going on in your situation.
ForGump I have some observations from my sitch as well as many others. And it's also built into DB principles. It's the idea of patience. When you think you've waited long enough, you need to wait some more. And it's brutal. Only the patient person can get the outcome we all want, which is a healthy marriage with their spouse and a connected family.
Here are the problems with bursting her bubble too early:
1) it takes time for the MLC or WW fog to clear. It's very thick right now and she can't make good decisions
2) removing OM from the picture too early will almost guarantee OM2
3) because OM is a guy who is guaranteed to have issues of his since no level headed and life driven man fishes for other peoples spouses, he is a good third wheel to have. The wife is simply parked in a tow away zone right now
4) let's say OM is nudged out of the picture too early and W is not ready to look back at Husband. Technically she is now separated and so OM2 could very well be an actual candidate to actually keep her. He could be in his 40s or 50s, divorced in the past, have his head on straight, career driven guy who is ready to commit to a divorcee wife with 5 kids. The 22 year old OM is not.
5) the crisis has to run its course. If it takes let's say 6 months or 1 year, think of how many OMs can be crammed into that time period? Geordie may be able to look past one OM and reconcile with his W but can he look past two? How about three?
6) if the other time hires a rookie quarterback wouldn't you prefer those odds rather than a seasoned veteran?
Personally, I left my W in the company of the loser who helped her escape. I played a waiting game. I made sure I was the safe place for her while also "acting as if" I was ok with moving on. The better you do this acting as if the more pressure you place on her and therefore the more strain on this new OM and their R together.
Your 22 year old is exactly like the OM in my sitch. He's not ready for kids and is just in the company of someone as broken as he is. Birds of a feather flock together. You wouldn't want him removed too quickly making way for a OM2 who could be an emotionally healthy guy who would be dating a separated woman. That changes the situation drastically.
That is my opinion.
I'd leave it alone. I'd let it run it's course. Let it be a learning experience for his W. I've seen people apply pressure too early and end up for being a OM2 situation. Or forcing an early reconciliation and then deal with OM2 a year later.
Wife has to learn the lesson. She has to go through with her plans to the very end. See the plan through. She's escaping her life that's fillled with kids and laundry and dishes. She's going to start a new life with someone who doesn't have kids (same as OM in my story). She's going to do all the things she can't do in her real life. The fantasy is too powerful. The way out is to let her see it through all the way until it pops and the reality hits like a ton of bricks.
Can you imagine the issues that will arise from this OMs perspective? I can tell you a few from my sitch:
1) he isn't good with kids and doesn't know what he's doing. This will be a turn off for any mother. She will tell him he needs to learn.
2) he won't appreciate the times when she needs to take care of little junior who has a cold. And she will tell him He needs to learn.
3) every time she mentions her H he will tell her not to mention him. Because he's not comfortable hearing about another man who is obviously so tied into her life. And she will tell him he needs to get used to it, and learn.
So a pattern here? The W tries to make a husband and father out of her new OM and the single guy almost always fails. I like Gordies chances the way they are.
SM34, everything you say makes sense if OM is indeed an OM; i.e., some real emotional or physical exchanges have taken place between Gordie's wife and the OM. I believe no such thing has happened. I believe Gordie's wife is having a delusional episode.
It's one thing for me to say that I am totally in love with <name of some movie star>. It is a completely different thing for me to say that the movie star and I have something going on between us. If I truly believe that, I need professional help. It is called psychosis.
Furthermore, I am not suggesting Gordie go blow this up into a confrontation. I am merely suggesting Gordie talk to the 22 year old kid to confirm that his wife is delusional in this regard. I am not suggesting that he take that info and go rub it into his wife's face, necessarily. But it will help him understand where his wife is, mentally, and put to rest his concern that his W is going to go co-habitate w/ this 22 year old kid after she divorces him. She can believe that, but I believe Gordie needs to stop buying into that delusion. It's not a fantasy, but a delusion.
First, no anti depressants. Both of us have been free of drug issues, prescription or otherwise.
Second, the single biggest issue is the loss of emotional connection. My W's primary love language is quantity time and conversation and over 20 years and 5 kids she feels we drifted apart and that it's no one's fault. When she is angry, she says I prioritized myself and the kids over her. When we lost the emotional connection, she started to resent the childcare and housekeeping and sex--these changed from things she enjoyed to duties she resented...she felt used. She started questioning everythkng and blaming religion, society, her family and me for her situation. She attempted to talk to me about some of these things, but I didn't listen. As you suspected, she made new divorced and single friends who have been her cheerleaders in her new endeavors.
True. I can agree with that. If there is no OM or no actual EA or PA that changes things.
But. Do 22 year old boys often get invited to hang out with a 42 year old woman just to chill? I just don't buy that.
But anyway, regardless, the W is threatening to leave. If not this 22 year old kid then it would be someone else. I didn't understand this at all when it was my turn. I kept telling people here in the boards how much better I am than the OM. I was insulted that she would leave ME for THAT. And if you read enough sitchs here you will see that's actually a pattern. The OM or OW is ALWAYS trash.
My wife later confirmed to me that it had nothing to do with how good OM was or how better or worse I was or he was. He was there. He was easy. Because no one who is emotionally sick wants to break away from a marrriage and get their own apartment or home and THEN start dating. That is the path for strong emotionally healthy people!! Broken people find someone to enable them and they jump ship without having thought it through.
So there has not been any evidence at all that they are in an A? Gordie when you say they "hang out" what exactly are they doing? Where? Who is with them? What is her excuse or allaby for hanging out with someone who is young enough to be her son? What's her story regarding this?
She's in a crisis that has been brewing for some time. It's not that you didn't listen. You did what all spouses do in that situation. You downplayed it. You put yourself in her shoes and you decided if you were her you wouldn't be that seriously affected. You wouldn't have been thrown into crisis mode over these thins.
Which brings us to the next point. she almost certainly is suffering from prior trauma. Forgive me if it's in one of your earlier posts. I didn't see any back story of her past. When you trace the history of crisis people there is always something in the past that caused this.
My wife therapist guided her while she was in crisis. She made her confront the things that made her explode. Turns out they were deep seeded issues from way way before I ever met her, and they were based around her parents divorce. (Surprise surprise. The same thing all of us here are trying to shield our own kids from).
It was through her own therapy that she was able to slowly realize that she was the one who had issues. Her unhappiness was not caused by me. It was definitely made worse by me, and I took responsibility for my half of our failed marriage, but there were older more powerful issues that would have made here leave whoever she was with, even if it wasn't me.
People who decide to cut and run would have done it with whoever they were with. The proof in your sitch is her blaming religion, her family, her upbringing etc. basically she feels she was made into a person who she is not. Exactly like my wife felt. THERAPY made her realize that SHE made herself the person who she's not, not the people around her. Certainly not me!
So there has not been any evidence at all that they are in an A? Gordie when you say they "hang out" what exactly are they doing? Where? Who is with them? What is her excuse or allaby for hanging out with someone who is young enough to be her son? What's her story regarding this?
There is no evidence but I haven't snooped. I suspected and after BD when I questioned my W she confessed that she is IL with him and me. He works for my W in her small business so that's why they have time together. W confesses she started taking him out to lunch because she thought he was interesting. They became friends and shared the details of their lives with each other. OM is in a three year committed R with his GF. W says she denied having romantic feelings for him for a long time and then couldn't deny it any longer. W says OM isn't open to a R with her because she is a married woman.
I hadn't considered it I blow up OM1 then I may be opening the door for a better OM2. Yikes.
Which brings us to the next point. she almost certainly is suffering from prior trauma. Forgive me if it's in one of your earlier posts. I didn't see any back story of her past. When you trace the history of crisis people there is always something in the past that caused this.
The big crisis in my W's past that she admits to driving her current behavior relates to her mother. W's best friend growing up was her mother. Mother died unexpectedly when W was a youth. W felt abandoned. W believes her mother felt trapped in her marriage and her religious beliefs did not permit D so she willed herself to death to escape her M. W says she refuses to be repeat her mother's path.
Bingo. She's going to need therapy to get overcome that before she can be stable emotionally. But that's for another phase in her life.
So OM isn't much of an OM at this point. She's in a full blown fantasy. Even delusional as ForGump said.
What do you think you did to contribute to her feelings?
Do you think she's been unhappy that long or is she re writing history?
Does she have siblings? How is their married life?
Has she ever talked about any feelings of wanting to hurt herself or her children? Does she seem to not want to be around the kids? I'm only asking this because it's a sign of post parting depression. Has she ever mentioned thinking that she's depressed?
She suffered post partum depression after #3. She does not show any signs of wanting to hurt herself or the children. One sibling in a stable marriage. She started making major changes in her appearance, beliefs, friends and ambitions five years ago. My failure was not being her cheerleader during this period. I supported her in providing funds for her to travel, take classes and start her business. She is appreciative of this but she says I could have done so much more, which is true. I didn't appreciate all the positive changes she was making in her life. At my worst, I either ignored or was critical of her changes.
It was through her own therapy that she was able to slowly realize that she was the one who had issues.
Was she always open to seeing a therapist? Or did she hit rock bottom and realize she needed professional help?
My W so badly needs help... but thinks she's just fine.
she almost certainly is suffering from prior trauma.... When you trace the history of crisis people there is always something in the past that caused this.
Great point, SM34.
I might add that effects of trauma manifest themselves as anxiety, depression, insecurity, OCD, etc.
I'm not a psychologist. I just play one in this forum.
Overall, this was a good weekend. Date night with W, activities with the kids, family time and helping W with her work. No R talks. Last night, I get in my side of the bed and W says I can come closer to her. I do and we snuggle and she says thank you for all of your help this weekend and as we drift off to sleep my mind is racing, asking all the questions that can't be asked.
A small detachment victory:
W asked me a S question. I got that knot in my stomach. I suppressed the feeling. I kept a friendly tone and appearance and answered her question without emotion! I think this is a first for me. We then moved on to a non S topic.
Question about selling the house...
Gordie -- you asked before why my situation has become closer to yours. I don't know if you gathered the answer ... but it's because my W recently wrote that she loves me and that I will always be a part of her life and she wants to D but live in the same house for up to a year while she gains some economic footing. Her professing love and wanting to stay together ... that parallels yours. Also, there is a very strong MLC component to my W's existential crisis ... she has never been able to take control of her life (especially in a healthy way), so she's always felt boxed in by life, I think. Now that she's going through midlife, she's rebelling against those perceived constraints, and wants to experience wild passion.
There is a part of me that is very envious of your date night w/ W, the snuggling, etc. But another part that says I'd be so torn up inside to do that while the W is asking for a divorce. Seems like torture.
Gordie -- you asked before why my situation has become closer to yours. I don't know if you gathered the answer ... but it's because my W recently wrote that she loves me and that I will always be a part of her life and she wants to D but live in the same house for up to a year while she gains some economic footing. Her professing love and wanting to stay together ... that parallels yours. Also, there is a very strong MLC component to my W's existential crisis ... she has never been able to take control of her life (especially in a healthy way), so she's always felt boxed in by life, I think. Now that she's going through midlife, she's rebelling against those perceived constraints, and wants to experience wild passion.
There is a part of me that is very envious of your date night w/ W, the snuggling, etc. But another part that says I'd be so torn up inside to do that while the W is asking for a divorce. Seems like torture.
Aha...yes, all that sounds terribly familiar--though the sexual incompatibility that your W discusses is perplexing to me, if she feels so loving and connected to you in the other ways, unless that is part of her earlier trauma or she has you in some non-sexual category of her brain (like a brother or a father--I know you are a fan of amateur psycho analysis). It is amazing at how many of these situations are different...yet share so many similarities. There is a question I'd like to ask you, that I am pondering:
*You and your W have kids, so like my situation, you guys will be together for the rest of your lives in some capacity. On these boards, there seems to be a spectrum of...#1 co-parents with NC other than kid related communication (tough love, make them miss you)...#2 friendly co-parents who continue to do some family activities together like birthdays or holidays or vacations (though one or both parties may have remarried)...and #3 friends and co-parents, LBSs who are standing and hope that by remaining friends they create the best atmosphere for their children and keep the door open to reconciliation (most of these situations appear to be in the MLC category). Where do you see you and your W in the future?
#1.
I can't do any other. I can't be platonic friends w/ my W if she divorces me. My heart just doesn't feel it that way. She will always be a sexual being to me.
Maybe my heart will change. But it will take years, maybe decades.
Over the last 48 hours, W has been acting differently, doing her own 180s. She hasn't said anything and we haven't had any R talks, it's just a vibe I'm getting.
*About 10 days ago, I was getting the vibe that she was uncomfortable with our regular hello and goodbye kisses on the cheek, so I stopped. I didn't even know if she'd notice or if she'd feel relieved (maybe the kisses were pursuing). Yesterday, she started kissing me hello and goodbye.
*Today, she texted me out of the blue thanking me for something I did for her yesterday (she usually doesn't do this).
*Yesterday, there was the request to snuggle in bed (no ML) and touched me non-sexually, a lot more than recently.
Of course, I'm wondering what is going on in her head, but I'm not going to ask her. As far as I know, she is still full-steam ahead on the separation process (though I have not yet gotten a written proposal from her/her lawyer). Why is she acting this way if she is at the same time plotting our separation? And what do I do if she says she's having second thoughts?
Over the last 48 hours, W has been acting differently, doing her own 180s. She hasn't said anything and we haven't had any R talks, it's just a vibe I'm getting.
*About 10 days ago, I was getting the vibe that she was uncomfortable with our regular hello and goodbye kisses on the cheek, so I stopped. I didn't even know if she'd notice or if she'd feel relieved (maybe the kisses were pursuing). Yesterday, she started kissing me hello and goodbye.
*Today, she texted me out of the blue thanking me for something I did for her yesterday (she usually doesn't do this).
*Yesterday, there was the request to snuggle in bed (no ML) and touched me non-sexually, a lot more than recently.
Of course, I'm wondering what is going on in her head, but I'm not going to ask her. As far as I know, she is still full-steam ahead on the separation process (though I have not yet gotten a written proposal from her/her lawyer). Why is she acting this way if she is at the same time plotting our separation? And what do I do if she says she's having second thoughts?
I don't know that I can speak for your W but I had a bit of this too before BD2. Cuddling out of the blue, kissing etc. and then coldness... emotions go up and down, it's probably her trying/testing to see if there's still "anything" there. I would just keep doing what your doing, stay consistent and non-responsive. you have separate Beds - is that your doing or hers? If she's acknowledged the A I'd draw a pretty hard line that physical contact is not acceptable as long as the A is active.
Over the last 48 hours, W has been acting differently, doing her own 180s. She hasn't said anything and we haven't had any R talks, it's just a vibe I'm getting.
*About 10 days ago, I was getting the vibe that she was uncomfortable with our regular hello and goodbye kisses on the cheek, so I stopped. I didn't even know if she'd notice or if she'd feel relieved (maybe the kisses were pursuing). Yesterday, she started kissing me hello and goodbye.
*Today, she texted me out of the blue thanking me for something I did for her yesterday (she usually doesn't do this).
*Yesterday, there was the request to snuggle in bed (no ML) and touched me non-sexually, a lot more than recently.
Of course, I'm wondering what is going on in her head, but I'm not going to ask her. As far as I know, she is still full-steam ahead on the separation process (though I have not yet gotten a written proposal from her/her lawyer). Why is she acting this way if she is at the same time plotting our separation? And what do I do if she says she's having second thoughts?
I don't know that I can speak for your W but I had a bit of this too before BD2. Cuddling out of the blue, kissing etc. and then coldness... emotions go up and down, it's probably her trying/testing to see if there's still "anything" there. I would just keep doing what your doing, stay consistent and non-responsive. you have separate Beds - is that your doing or hers? If she's acknowledged the A I'd draw a pretty hard line that physical contact is not acceptable as long as the A is active.
We still sleep in the same bed and ML. She says she won't start a new R until we S.
Over the last 48 hours, W has been acting differently, doing her own 180s. She hasn't said anything and we haven't had any R talks, it's just a vibe I'm getting.
*About 10 days ago, I was getting the vibe that she was uncomfortable with our regular hello and goodbye kisses on the cheek, so I stopped. I didn't even know if she'd notice or if she'd feel relieved (maybe the kisses were pursuing). Yesterday, she started kissing me hello and goodbye.
*Today, she texted me out of the blue thanking me for something I did for her yesterday (she usually doesn't do this).
*Yesterday, there was the request to snuggle in bed (no ML) and touched me non-sexually, a lot more than recently.
Of course, I'm wondering what is going on in her head, but I'm not going to ask her. As far as I know, she is still full-steam ahead on the separation process (though I have not yet gotten a written proposal from her/her lawyer). Why is she acting this way if she is at the same time plotting our separation? And what do I do if she says she's having second thoughts?
Don't ask why. Don't ask her or us or yourself. She probably doesn't even know. If she says she's having second thoughts, validate but don't get your hopes up.
In the meantime, just enjoy the moments, and don't think about the future.
Have you read about pursuit and distance?
Rose, thank you will follow that advice. How to validate?
You are having second thoughts? How does that make you feel? That must be difficult and confusing?
Yes, I read the distance and pursue thread over in MLC but haven't read the book. Thank you for the reminder.
Rose, thank you will follow that advice. How to validate?
You are having second thoughts? How does that make you feel? That must be difficult and confusing?
Yes, I read the distance and pursue thread over in MLC but haven't read the book. Thank you for the reminder.
Hmm. That sounds patronizing to me.
I'd probably avoid asking questions.
"It sounds like you are doing a lot of thinking about this."
ForGump--pulling this over from JRuss's thread as I don't want to hijack his:
W actually said almost this exact same thing to me
Gordie, I believe JRuss's wife did NOT say that. She DOESN'T realize that that is her problem. She believes her happiness is out there somewhere, in Divorceyland.
But ... it's curious, Gordie, that your W would say that, but is looking for happiness outside herself...!!! (I guess MLC/Waywards are irrational).
Yes, I realize JRuss's W did not say that but that JRuss was saying that as encouragement to all of us.
My W said that to me because she feels she no longer needs to be M to be happy...and W wants me to feel the same way. Yes, she thought M and children and being a SAHM would make her happy, but it didn't...instead, it made her feel resentful and used and trapped and frustrated and unfulfilled.
She's says she's detached from the M, but not from me (I still love you). To her, our M is dead and, if there is a new M for us in the future, she wants there to be no traditional expectations (H works outside the home and W is a homemaker). She doesn't know if I have it in me to have to have that type of relationship. Nor does she think we could transition our relationship from point A to point B except possibly after some time apart through S or D.
She's right about one thing: your old marriage is dead.
Once your wife throws off the shackles of marriage, will she be OK with you sleeping with another woman? Is she OK with the possibility that you will fall in love with someone else? She wants to be free -- is she OK with you being free as well?
She's right about one thing: your old marriage is dead.
Once your wife throws off the shackles of marriage, will she be OK with you sleeping with another woman? Is she OK with the possibility that you will fall in love with someone else? She wants to be free -- is she OK with you being free as well?
She says she is...but she gets emotional when she says it...so I don't really know...and my mind reading is really bad (W says this is one of the reasons why our M fell apart, seriously)...
My inclination that something is going on with her has continued for the past 24 hours...W was downright flirty last night, including playing with my hair (don't think she's done that since BD)...reached out to hold my hand when we were falling asleep...and she actually called me at work today (also can't remember the last time she did that)...but as Rose advised, I'm just trying to accept and enjoy these moments for what they are and keep my expectations at ZERO...but gosh, it is confusing...
I'm starting to think some are nuts when in milc from some of the stuff I've read,some one told years ago in the old days in the UK they used to putem in the nut house,I was told one story about a friend of mine mum used to get on the bus with just a coat on and flash her self to men,
Gordie,
Stay detached but pay very close attention to your interaction with your W while she is being this way. Is ther something different to what you're doing? Acting?
I think these may be positive movements.
Gordie,
Stay detached but pay very close attention to your interaction with your W while she is being this way. Is there something different to what you're doing? Acting?
I think these may be positive movements.
Steps forwards and steps backwards...this journey has so many twists and turns that it is exhausting...
What has changed with me:
*Non-pursuit (no initiating texts, phone calls, R discussions, or physical intimacy)
*More quality time/quality conversation (this is my W's main LL and her biggest R complaint)
What has changed with W:
*W feels/acts more emotionally connected to me and is more physically affectionate/intimate
*W says she now wants a separation agreement and not to file for D
What hasn't changed:
*We are working on our separation agreement with our Ls
*We are planning to physically separate in the coming weeks
What do I not know:
*Why does my W want separation and not divorce?
*What is happening with POM?
Hi 'could it be so she can have a om under your nose and legal,and make it so she thinks its OK as if she is not doing any thing wrong,covering her self,might be totally wrong ,
Yes, that is possible...think she has convinced herself that once we are separated or divorced, she will finally be free...free to find out who she wants to be, free to go and do whatever she wants to do with whomever she wants to do it...
And I have to let her go on her journey...while I go on my journey...and hope that we don't hurt each other and the kids too much in the process...and that we continue to love one another and both grow to become better people and still want to be with one another sometime in the future (I'm still a believer in my until death do we part vow)...a process which may take years...but because of our kids, we will have daily interaction with one another for a very long time...
I can't remember who it was, but someone here asked if this may not be an MLC at all (which implies that while it may last years, is still temporary), but perhaps my W has simply changed, as people do change...and that is possible too...
Yep it looks like mlc to me ,and your on the rollercoaster ride,I believe. Its all about having other men and sex ,if you take the icing off
Hey Gordie, I just finish reading through your threads and what a journey you have been on. I believe what you said is true on her wanting to have a journey and feel like a free person to do what she wants to do. That is something I am still struggling with even though she moved out a few months ago. But just remember decisions have consequences. And each person has to deal with there own consequences for their decisions. So unless they can realize that their fantasies are not all that they are made out to be in real life on their own the change will never happen.
The grass is not greener on the other side like they think it is going to be,and you don't miss things until they are gone,and they run the risk of burning the bridges so they can't get back the lbs closes the door,
Hey Gordie, I just finish reading through your threads and what a journey you have been on. I believe what you said is true on her wanting to have a journey and feel like a free person to do what she wants to do. That is something I am still struggling with even though she moved out a few months ago. But just remember decisions have consequences. And each person has to deal with there own consequences for their decisions. So unless they can realize that their fantasies are not all that they are made out to be in real life on their own the change will never happen.
Yes, but right now she is only experiencing the fantasy of her dreams and comparing it the reality of her M to me and she is choosing the fantasy. She says she may be making the biggest mistake of her life but that she has to do it. She acknowledges that she could stay M to me and that her life would be safe and predictable. But right now she wants to take some risks and see if her fantasies can become reality. She says she doesn't want to be on her death bed and regret not taking this chance now. She uses MLC language that time is running out. It hurts to get dumped for a fantasy but I recognize that fantasies are powerful and that is what she is choosing. I am heartbroken but I do love her and think the loving thing to do now is to step back. Yes, it may mean we willl never be together again, but this is her choice. I'm not the tough love guy and maybe that is a fatal flaw, but I am praying daily for guidance to do what is right. I think of the story of the Produgal Son and how the father let the son go and waited for him to come back.
The grass is not greener on the other side like they think it is going to be,and you don't miss things until they are gone,and they run the risk of burning the bridges so they can't get back the lbs closes the door,
Agree. Fortunately, W definitely doesn't want to burn the bridge with me at this stage. If anything, she wants to keep me in her life as much as possible and it seems like for some this prevents the necessary growth to get to a place where one could reconcile.
I agree with you totally on that the fantasy is only in her head and it is a very powerful thing. Look at this way. I am sure you have fantasied about many different things in the past but as we all have come to find out is that it never turns out the way we play it in our heads. Trust me I was there and fantasized about something different and I thought if I did x that life was going to be better. No one could have told me different and would not have cared if they did because the state of mind I was in. I had to play it out for myself to realize that the grass is not greener on the other side. My decisions made it be one of the biggest mistakes of my life. Unfortunately I had to learn it the hard way just like most people have to do. Until the bubble pops it will always be there and if it does not pop they will always look back and say what if. Now on how you deal with it or handle it you are the only one who can make that decision. You can not focus on the future of what may be because no one knows the future so just focus on today and be the best person you can be.
So W gave clarifying R comments about her recent wamth, affection, and ML to me while at the same time pushing for our S in the coming weeks. To her, H now listens to W and understands W and is helping W live the life W wants to live and is putting W's desires ahead of his own and that letting go of W and M is an act of love. This makes W feel closer to H. It confirms her feelings that we don't need to be M in order to have a love R.
Gordie's analysis:
*I can only change me. I like the changes i have made.
*W likes the changes I have made but they don't change her view of M.
*W thinks the traditional view of M is a bad deal for women.
*I will choose to continue to father my children every day.
*I will choose to continue loving my W (though not sure how that plays out on a day to day basis, particularly if/when she engages with POM and how I will outlast that storm).
Rose, thank you will follow that advice. How to validate?
You are having second thoughts? How does that make you feel? That must be difficult and confusing?
Yes, I read the distance and pursue thread over in MLC but haven't read the book. Thank you for the reminder.
Hmm. That sounds patronizing to me.
I'd probably avoid asking questions.
"It sounds like you are doing a lot of thinking about this."
Just getting caught up on your sitch Gordie.
For me, when they make loaded statements that probe for a reaction, I just act like I didn't get their hint.
So in response to "I'm having doubts" I would just respond with something really nonchalant like "yeah, it can be confusing at times..." I may even add a one syllable chuckle at the beginning.
Point is that I'd make it clear that I heard her and validated her, but just as clear that I wasn't reading into it, wasn't emotionally reacting to it. If she has something to say it would have to be a heck of a lot more content and more direct. For a fragment temp check like this I'll answer in the same vague fashion and move on, letting her wonder about ME instead of the other way around.
Your WW is partly right.
To her, H now:
- listens to W and
- understands W and
- is helping W live the life W wants to live and
- is putting W's desires ahead of his own and
Good
- that letting go of W is an act of love.
Respecting her independence is good.
- that letting go of M is an act of love.
No.
Here's the conversation I hear in my head:
"Honey, you have some things right but you are badly mistaken about this part. A divorce is not the solution. I cannot be with you emotionally and physically while you are sleeping with other men. That goes against all my values and feels wrong to every bone in my body. In fact, the closeness you feel with me right now -- if you knew that I was sleeping with other women, you would not feel that toward me. You would feel violated and skeptical that I care for you."
This makes W feel closer to H. It confirms her feelings that we don't need to be M in order to have a love R.
"Your feeling good about me being more supportive of you is right. But that is happening because I am committed and loyal to you. That is happening exactly because we are married and devoted to each other. If both of us are emotionally and physically carrying on with other people, those good feelings won't be there any more."
Like I said, it's the conversation I hear in my head. I doubt you should say anything so verbose to your wife.
ForGump,
Thanks. Feeling so discouraged and that my efforts aren't working. I do need to think about what I say at this point but can't think straight.
That lump in my throats that doesn't go away is back. I need to go back and re read DR and re assess what I've been doing and how my tactics need to change. I still have a couple more weeks before we are going to physically separate so need to make the most of them.
Anger, sadness, confusion...how can this be actually happening? And my poor kids...
So W gave clarifying R comments about her recent wamth, affection, and ML to me while at the same time pushing for our S in the coming weeks. To her, H now listens to W and understands W and is helping W live the life W wants to live and is putting W's desires ahead of his own and that letting go of W and M is an act of love. This makes W feel closer to H. It confirms her feelings that we don't need to be M in order to have a love R.
Feeling so discouraged and that my efforts aren't working...That lump in my throats that doesn't go away is back. I need to go back and re read DR and re assess what I've been doing and how my tactics need to change.
Gordie, you have to believe none of what you hear and half of what you see.
You are reading *WAY* too much into her words. You simply cannot. She is in a place where her emotions are all over the map, she is confused, conflicted, angry, excited, etc, etc. She is trying to create rationalizations for how she feels. These are NOT true underlying outlooks, they are at best a weak echo of what she's going through at one moment. They are the effect, not the cause. The worst thing you could do is to steer your ship by her brain farts.
I always tell people not to follow their feelings because their feelings are a horrible compass through this period, and not to follow their thoughts because their thoughts are just rationalizations of their feelings. You can only trust your beliefs after detaching from the rest. Well, she is following her feelings and thoughts, so don't follow her.
We also generally say "Speak in actions, not in words". You want to show change, change your behavior. Don't bother talking about something, that just makes it worse. Just live the change. Well, in your sitch the opposite is true. Don't bother listening to words, watch her behavior. And, like she might be afraid your changes won't last, give her time to see what's real versus what's a mood. All we know is she seems to be responding well to the changes you've made.
All in all, don't do a sudden switch because of a few sentences from her. Who knows, she might even be testing you to see if you were acting that way just to try to 'win her back', and is seeing if you change now that she told you she's not coming back. We don't know. Furthermore, you can't use whether or not she wants to R this week as a gauge as to whether what you're doing is working, because there isn't some change you can make that will control her back to the M.
So keep moving forward smoothly, no abrupt wild flailing around trying to land a desperation punch in the last round. Smooth. Consistent. Calm. Focus on detaching from the outcome, and being how you want to be because it's the right thing for you to do, not simply to try to pull levers with WAW. I think you need to make the last few weeks positive, you can always change the nature of your relationship after she's gone, but no reason to try to leave her with a bad taste in her mouth. It's ok for her to miss you. That's not the only goal, but it can't be a bad thing that she's saying this stuff.
I have to agree with Zues126. I found myself always trying to read into everything my W says. There were signs of hope and then other days there were signs of everything is done. I was just talking to someone in my support group last night about this. I see hope in things from her but it can be me just wanting to see what I want to see. So he suggested for me to take all those things that I see hope in and store them on a shelf in the back of my brain and just let them sit out of sight. Over time stuff will accumulate and vanish but what the most important thing is to continue to detach and work on yourself.
As I am continuing to detach more and more it has been able to give me a better view of what is going on and I am able to see more and more on a clear head. I can make better decisions on what I need to do for myself. Which at the moment is exactly what I need because now it is about me becoming the best version of myself. Trust me I know it is not an easy thing to be able to detach but it is a necessary one to be able to focus more on yourself. Just remember that becoming the best version of yourself will help create a person that she would be a fool to leave.
Gordie--
I agree w/ these guys above.
Cry, vent, complain, despair in the forum. But at home, fake it. Put up a solid, strong, steady image.
Short of having one of our children die, this is the hardest thing we will ever do. Hurts like hell. But you can do it, man. Just lock your mind into doing the right thing. One foot in front of another. That's what I try to do.
Zues/Seeker7/ForGump,
Thank you so much for the encouragement! I needed it. So I took time to reflect on where I've been and started a new thread:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2725584&#Post2725584