Hi all
New here, currently reading first chapter of DR, but in need of advice.
My partner of over 6years (we are not married, were planning on tying the knot, but these troubles started before we got round to it) is currently engaged in an EA with a man in another country.
She first made contact on social media, while looking for like minded people. We were having arguments at the time regarding fairly important issues (political/societal what effects they would have on the kids - I won't go into the details here).
She took this new friendship to Skype, it became inappropriate. She told me this and that she had stopped it. She then tried to talk to me later about how she was missing her friend, but I was unable to deal with it emotionally, so didn't explore further other than saying that it made ME unhappy that she had those feelings. I missed the signals to work on what was wrong.
In July I saw a social media message on her timeline from the EAP saying he had got her messages and loved and missed her too. I was then suspicious, so abot a month later, I checked her phone, and her skype was open, saying she loved the EAP.
I was furious. I message the EAP told him to leave my wife alone (we always describe each other as husband and wife). He had not known she was in a relationship. She then went back to him with a ridiculous story about how I was an ex still living with her due to the house.
She told me she had stopped it. A couple of weeks later I found out she was at it again.
I took to all the wrong things, paranoid, spying on her internet activity. At one point I told her it wasn't fair and I couldn't go on, and she arranged to delete her account and block his email. But then she accused me of forcing her to do it. Because it was a skype account, the deactivation didn't happen for 2 months, and as the time was getting close, she kept accusing me of controlling her - so I said she could do what she wanted and reactivate it at any time, I wasn't forcing her. So she did.
She immediately set up a new email account, which I discovered. We had a bust up.
I even emailed the EAP a couple of times, once to try and rationalise him into going away, once to prove that we were a couple and he was interloping, and the third time just to wind him up that we were still together (he is a single man, not much going for him, seems quire manipulative from the comms I have seen, but it could also just be that he is in limerance too. I really don't actually care about him, have realised it's time to stop seeing him as the enemy)
When this started I was already i a separate bedroom - my daughter kept getting up in the night, and as I get up at 5am for work, it was easier for me to be closer to her rather than getting totally disturbed. I moved back in a few weeks ago, but due to me not sleeping well, and trying to look at her phone in the night, we had another major argument which ended up in her buying another bed for the spare room, but then guilting me into moving out. My daughter is now back in the MBR with her.
Since then she's tried to end it, but not succeeded. She feels in love with him. She says she loves me. But she is not committed to ending it and fixing us. I believe she is in an addictive/limerance phase.
My spying and invading her privacy has made things worse. I have blocked the internet on occasions and this has led to arguments.
I have asked her not to message him when I am at home, but she refuses, because of the 5 hour time difference, that means she would only have a short window to communicate with him. I have asked her to take her comms outside the house out of respect, but she won't, saying it is her home too.
So last night, trying to apply boundaries, I blocked skype again. This has led to another argument this morning. She tells me she won't be infantilised, and that the R is over now due to me trying to control it. I told her that I wasn't preventing here doing anything, she could use her mobile phone signal to skype, she can get another internet line put in, but I couldn't passively or actively enable her infidelity.
She refuses to acknowledge this. She now says that since I have claimed the internet, as she puts it, she is claiming 'her bedroom'. I had been planning on moving back in, since my daughter is in there, and it's still me that has to deal with her in the night. I thought that she could leave to the new bed she bought, and go to the spare room seeing as she is not facing any consequences of her actions at the minute.
So, have I acted in a controlling manner by blocking skype, and making her actively seek out ways to communicate, or is that a boundary?
Immediate response is bad - R is over, worried about money, she will move out when she is ready and take her children with her.... OUR children. She is concerned because she doesn't work, other than being employed through mu company, I go out to work, and due to long commute am out 14 hours a day. I am self employed.
Help and advice needed. Very worried. But want to save this R and look myself in the mirror.
D
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH. Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Thank you for the quick response. I will keep on with the DR book - I started this morning.
Thanks for the threads to review - I will read. Detachment is hard. I have told her already that I am willing to fight for our R.
GAL is the hardest bit for me - I actually need to make a plan. My work commute means I am get up at 5 and get home at 7:30, then put my daughter to bed, read to her, then eat - then the day is done. I guess I need to make more of weekends now.
I've been working on keeping physically fit, just little and often. Stress related weight loss helped a bit, I guess - this EA thing put me off my appetite for a while. My WW even commented that I was looking more muscular lately.
I'll be back no doubt once I have done a bit more reading.
Thanks again
She was going to move out to the spare room, but guilted me due to her back problems, etc. She even ordered a new bed, which I am now in :-/ Now she says she is claiming the MBR as I have claimed the internet by blocking Skype.
Our normal advice is do NOT move out of the house or the MBR.
I see no reason to not listen to our normal advice.
She told you to jump and you asked how high?
Is that the normal way things have gone in your relationship?
She was going to move out to the spare room, but guilted me due to her back problems, etc. She even ordered a new bed, which I am now in :-/ Now she says she is claiming the MBR as I have claimed the internet by blocking Skype.
She told you to jump and you asked how high?
Is that the normal way things have gone in your relationship?
Quite often it has been, I'm afraid. It's not that I don't defend my corner or argue, it's just that I usually lose (sometime just for the peace), or quite often realise I am arguing for the sake of it.
Now the issue is do I move back in? It will no doubt be taken as a confrontational tactic. TBH, none of my things are in there anyway, we had too much stuff for 1 bedroom so mine went in the spare and hers in the main even when we both were in there. I know, I sound like I'm making excuses already, just at this stage moving back in there seems more symbolic than anything else. I tend to second guess myself a lot, not a great trait.
I am not going to leave the house.
I am not going to leave the house.
OK - good
We have a boundary!
She was going to move out to the spare room, but guilted me due to her back problems, etc. She even ordered a new bed, which I am now in :-/ Now she says she is claiming the MBR as I have claimed the internet by blocking Skype.
She told you to jump and you asked how high?
Is that the normal way things have gone in your relationship?
Quite often it has been, I'm afraid. It's not that I don't defend my corner or argue, it's just that I usually lose (sometime just for the peace), or quite often realise I am arguing for the sake of it.
Now the issue is do I move back in? It will no doubt be taken as a confrontational tactic. TBH, none of my things are in there anyway, we had too much stuff for 1 bedroom so mine went in the spare and hers in the main even when we both were in there. I know, I sound like I'm making excuses already, just at this stage moving back in there seems more symbolic than anything else. I tend to second guess myself a lot, not a great trait.
I am not going to leave the house.
Hello Woke_up,
I'm so sorry for the situation you are in.
Yes, don't leave the house. You are questioning how to move back into the MBR without being confrontational. Let a DB Coach help you with that and many other things you described.
Knowing what to do and what not to do at this point is crucial. Feel free to give me a call at 303-444-7004 to discuss how we can best help you determine what to do next.
Cristy
Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004
I am not going to leave the house.
OK - good
We have a boundary!
One at least. It's been a bit of a roller coaster day. After the argument in the morning, she was quite pleasant to me at lunch time, I complimented her on her new lipstick she was trying out, she was smiley and even gave me a kiss. Threw me a bit. I'm not sure I would normally do just a straightforward compliment, which was why I did it, as an attempt at a 180.
Then this evening at dinner, it was not good. Almost as if a trap had been set. Started off talking about something, the I got distracted by my daughter. When I sat back down she was just staring silently - said 'I'm waiting'... then proceeded to argue with me for not having a conversation. I pointed out that she had a podcast playing on her phone - then it was that I never make conversation (she has a point, I struggle with it), she felt alone, she didn't have any friends, only Youtube (she listens to a lot of politics and stuff, and the EAP, that I wasn't her friend.
Then it was dragging up past faults, past arguments, much of the not so good stuff in our history. The blocking of the Skype thing was the real cause though, that I was infantilising her again, that she can do what she wants, that if I want to make things hard she will make them harder.
All sorts of threats and nastiness, that I was driving her away, and may even dive her away abroad.. the implied threat being she will go to her EA in the states and take our daughter with her.
She says that I am trying to control her and what she can and can't do, and thinks that if she tells me our R is over, that therefore I should back down and take the skype block off as we are not together and she can do what she wants, and that it's no longer an affair, as the R is over.
She asked me to top up the credit on her phone and I refused, which also infuriated her - she was used to me always doing things like that for her, but again I see it as enabling the EA, and I don't want to be a part of that.
I'm not angry about it, if anything it felt like an addict who couldn't get their hit. She ended up storming out of the house to go to somewhere she could find a WiFI connection and get on her Skype. She's back now, and we are keeping distance.
This will give me time to reflect and read some more of DR. Posting here is at least giving me a chance to think through what is happening, reflect, and hopefully focus on improving me as a person, not just trying to change to please her.
What are the ages of you and your partner? You referred to the children, what are their ages?
I hope you won't see me copying a post I sent to another member as arrogance on my part. The subject is mostly about boundaries and consequences vs control and punishment.
Two cards the WW plays the most are the "guilt card" and the "control card". She will try to make the LBH feel guilty as a way to manipulate him. If he sets a boundary, she screams that he's controlling. LBS need not to explain where he stands or expound on what he said (as many LBH's have a tendency to do). The WW is using these cards to manipulate and get her way. The H needs to ignore these accusations.
I feel there may some who do not fully understand boundaries in a M. I can see how it could be misinterpreted as trying to control the other spouse. First of all, control is all about your spouse, and what she does, what she feels, etc. Control is keeping track of where she is every hour, who she talked to.......on & on. If she does not do it your way, then you punish her by giving the silent treatment, yelling at her or whatever. Control comes from fear; co-dependency; anger; inferiority; ...........on & on.
Boundaries are all about you. Boundaries are your limits. They are set in place by you...to protect you.....emotionally, mentally, & physically. Boundaries come from self-respect; dignity; freedom; values; integrity; & protection. They are not used to control or punish the your W for not choosing to do things your way.
Since honoring your boundary requires respect from the WW.........simply stating your boundary, may not be effective. Whatever your WW is doing that is hurting you, the benefits she receives for violating your boundary may outweigh respecting your boundary. (WW's are very resistant to the H's boundaries). So at this point, you need to enforce consequences. I did a little homework on the subject, so the list below reflects what I read.
A consequence is an effect, or result, of an action from you. You need to establish an appropriate consequence for your WW's disrespect, so that she will experience some type of discomfort due to her total negligence/irresponsibility and disrespect of your boundary. Otherwise, your boundary will not be effective. A consequence needs to have some very important characteristics:
1. Boundaries and consequences are not about fixing your spouse, or making her choose better. They are about allowing appropriate cause and effect so that she will experience the pain of irresponsibility, and then change.
2. Be deliberate and not impulsive........or set in anger. Think it through, and maybe post on the board to get other view points of what an appropriate effect might be. It is not about getting even. It is about getting out of enabling the wayward spouse, and about protecting yourself from her wayward behavior.
3. Make sure this is something you can and will do. You need to make sure you have the power and resources to set the limit. Don't make threats.
4. Remember your spouse has freedom of choice. Don’t set a consequence by saying, “You have to,” “You must,” or, “I will make you. . . .” Consequences are not something you do to control your spouse. They are reactions to her choices. Let her make her choices, but prepare your reactions.
5. The consequence should be immediate as possible. Just as kids need quick consequences, so does your WW. (Not that she's a child.....it's just an example). She can make the association between her action and the results if they are close together in time.
6. You want reality to be your WW's instructor, as much as possible. For example, a WW who becomes enraged should have her H and children leave her presence, right then, for a while. No one wants to be around her when she's having tantrums. This is preferable to an unrelated consequence, such as leaving her alone to watch the kids an extra evening while you go out to GAL.
7. Stay away from humiliating or punitive consequences such as making fun of her or making sarcastic remarks.
8. Consequences don’t have to be forever. As your WW takes responsibility and repents, you can change the consequences. However, be sure that change has truly occurred over some period of time. Just saying “I’m sorry” is not enough to let go of consequences. The other side of this, however, is that you may have to escalate the severity of the consequence if your WW behaves worse.
9. Boundaries are not ultimatums.
Does this help to understand boundaries a bit more? I hope you won't hesitate in asking questions.
You & your girlfriend are biological parents to a girl about 5 years old. Right?
You work 14 hours a day while your girlfriend stays home with your girl, and does some part time work for your business. Right?
Do you live in state where your relationship is or may be recognized as a common law marriage? (Search the web for info).
Assuming you are not in a common law marriage, and therefore she has no direct claim on your money, you could decide that you don't want to materially support any part of her affair.
But I think this is where Sandi2's point is important. Cutting off the money might be the easiest action to take -- and it may well end up being the right action -- but you have to start with the idea of protecting your feelings and dignity, as opposed to trying to control your girlfriends behavior. I think there is a subtle but important difference.
I don't see an easy answer, when you have lives that are entangled, and explicit and implicit agreement exists to run a household together.
Cutting off payment for one mode of communication (say, the Internet) while paying for her phone -- that feels punitive and controlling to me. If you stop paying for her phone but then you share money to pay for groceries, then what prevents her from just paying for the phone out of those funds? If so, then your actions just become a petty game.
I'm not sure what the right thing is, but I think you have to back up a little and look at the big picture. You and she have settled into an agreement that you work outside the home and bring in money, and she mostly stays home and takes care of your daughter, and that makes sense for a couple who love each other. But she is not saying, through her affair, that she no longer wants to be your lover/partner. She's crossed the boundary of that mutually understood relationship by having this affair. What should you do to protect your feelings and dignity?
Oops, I wrote:
But she is not saying, through her affair, that she no longer wants to be your lover/partner.
I mean to write:
But she ***is*** saying, through her affair, that she no longer wants to be your lover/partner.
Hello Woke_up,
I'm so sorry for the situation you are in.
Yes, don't leave the house. You are questioning how to move back into the MBR without being confrontational. Let a DB Coach help you with that and many other things you described.
Knowing what to do and what not to do at this point is crucial. Feel free to give me a call at 303-444-7004 to discuss how we can best help you determine what to do next.
Cristy
Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004
Thanks Cristy
I'll find a convenient time when I have some privacy, and can work the time zones - you're 7 hrs behind the UK
What are the ages of you and your partner? You referred to the children, what are their ages?
Thanks for the reply, Sandi. I am 46, she is 34. We have a daughter, 4 and a son 16 (my step son in reality, but he's my son)
I hope you won't see me copying a post I sent to another member as arrogance on my part. The subject is mostly about boundaries and consequences vs control and punishment.
Two cards the WW plays the most are the "guilt card" and the "control card". She will try to make the LBH feel guilty as a way to manipulate him. If he sets a boundary, she screams that he's controlling. LBS need not to explain where he stands or expound on what he said (as many LBH's have a tendency to do). The WW is using these cards to manipulate and get her way. The H needs to ignore these accusations.
That seems to be what is happening. Then she is softening her approach again. This morning she is being nice. But she has just taken her conversation to Google Hangouts instead of Skype...
I feel there may some who do not fully understand boundaries in a M. I can see how it could be misinterpreted as trying to control the other spouse. First of all, control is all about your spouse, and what she does, what she feels, etc. Control is keeping track of where she is every hour, who she talked to.......on & on. If she does not do it your way, then you punish her by giving the silent treatment, yelling at her or whatever. Control comes from fear; co-dependency; anger; inferiority; ...........on & on.
Thanks. That is why I am struggling. I don't really hold any cards in handing out that sort of punishment and don't want to anyway. Yelling at each other and having an atmosphere isn't good for us or the kids.
Boundaries are all about you. Boundaries are your limits. They are set in place by you...to protect you.....emotionally, mentally, & physically. Boundaries come from self-respect; dignity; freedom; values; integrity; & protection. They are not used to control or punish the your W for not choosing to do things your way.
Since honoring your boundary requires respect from the WW.........simply stating your boundary, may not be effective. Whatever your WW is doing that is hurting you, the benefits she receives for violating your boundary may outweigh respecting your boundary. (WW's are very resistant to the H's boundaries). So at this point, you need to enforce consequences. I did a little homework on the subject, so the list below reflects what I read.
It appears I have no way of enforcing my boundary - which is that she does not communicate with the EAP while in the house, especially while I or the kids are there. Unless I cut off the internet entirely, which hurts the kids as well - that would seem punitive. As ForGump said, even if I enforce the consequence, because of the shared money and budget, does it really make sense as she can still use her phone, put in another internet line, etc. It is just making her responsible for those particular bills and while she has happy for me to handle those sorts of things, she is more than capable if she has to.
A consequence is an effect, or result, of an action from you. You need to establish an appropriate consequence for your WW's disrespect, so that she will experience some type of discomfort due to her total negligence/irresponsibility and disrespect of your boundary. Otherwise, your boundary will not be effective. A consequence needs to have some very important characteristics:
1. Boundaries and consequences are not about fixing your spouse, or making her choose better. They are about allowing appropriate cause and effect so that she will experience the pain of irresponsibility, and then change.
2. Be deliberate and not impulsive........or set in anger. Think it through, and maybe post on the board to get other view points of what an appropriate effect might be. It is not about getting even. It is about getting out of enabling the wayward spouse, and about protecting yourself from her wayward behavior.
3. Make sure this is something you can and will do. You need to make sure you have the power and resources to set the limit. Don't make threats.
4. Remember your spouse has freedom of choice. Don’t set a consequence by saying, “You have to,” “You must,” or, “I will make you. . . .” Consequences are not something you do to control your spouse. They are reactions to her choices. Let her make her choices, but prepare your reactions.
5. The consequence should be immediate as possible. Just as kids need quick consequences, so does your WW. (Not that she's a child.....it's just an example). She can make the association between her action and the results if they are close together in time.
6. You want reality to be your WW's instructor, as much as possible. For example, a WW who becomes enraged should have her H and children leave her presence, right then, for a while. No one wants to be around her when she's having tantrums. This is preferable to an unrelated consequence, such as leaving her alone to watch the kids an extra evening while you go out to GAL.
7. Stay away from humiliating or punitive consequences such as making fun of her or making sarcastic remarks.
8. Consequences don’t have to be forever. As your WW takes responsibility and repents, you can change the consequences. However, be sure that change has truly occurred over some period of time. Just saying “I’m sorry” is not enough to let go of consequences. The other side of this, however, is that you may have to escalate the severity of the consequence if your WW behaves worse.
9. Boundaries are not ultimatums.
Does this help to understand boundaries a bit more? I hope you won't hesitate in asking questions.
It helps, but in this particularly sitch, I am struggling to find a consequence to fit the boundary that I have. As you suggest above, I will think and deliberate, and maybe get some feedback.
[/quote]
You & your girlfriend are biological parents to a girl about 5 years old. Right?
Yep.
You work 14 hours a day while your girlfriend stays home with your girl, and does some part time work for your business. Right?
Yep, including the commute. I guess the real reason she is employed is that it is tax efficient, her main role is looking after the home / children.
Do you live in state where your relationship is or may be recognized as a common law marriage? (Search the web for info).
We live in the UK. Common law is not recognised, however having a child together does bring with it significant responsibilities.
Assuming you are not in a common law marriage, and therefore she has no direct claim on your money, you could decide that you don't want to materially support any part of her affair.
But I think this is where Sandi2's point is important. Cutting off the money might be the easiest action to take -- and it may well end up being the right action -- but you have to start with the idea of protecting your feelings and dignity, as opposed to trying to control your girlfriends behavior. I think there is a subtle but important difference.
I don't see an easy answer, when you have lives that are entangled, and explicit and implicit agreement exists to run a household together.[quote=ForGump]
That's exactly where I am at. I don't feel that it's MY money or anything like that. It's ours. One of the reasons I went self employed was to enable her not to have to go out to work and let her spend more time with our daughter, it's not that I don't value what she is doing or feel she isn't entitled to anything.
[quote=ForGump]Cutting off payment for one mode of communication (say, the Internet) while paying for her phone -- that feels punitive and controlling to me. If you stop paying for her phone but then you share money to pay for groceries, then what prevents her from just paying for the phone out of those funds? If so, then your actions just become a petty game.
I think that's where this will end up. We live in the countryside, so her cell phone reception isn't that good, but quite often it's good enough. This morning she just went onto Google Hangouts instead of Skype to carry on. I still have her google account on my phone from way back when this was first discovered and she set up an alternative account - I found it out. I should probably focus on not looking any more, but it's difficult to not want to know what she's up to.
I'm not sure what the right thing is, but I think you have to back up a little and look at the big picture. You and she have settled into an agreement that you work outside the home and bring in money, and she mostly stays home and takes care of your daughter, and that makes sense for a couple who love each other. But she *is* saying, through her affair, that she no longer wants to be your lover/partner. She's crossed the boundary of that mutually understood relationship by having this affair. What should you do to protect your feelings and dignity?
The million dollar question. How do I do anything that stops me acting as an enabler, when in reality everything is so intertwined. I'm sitting here half contemplating moving her stuff into the spare room and mine back into the MBR, but again, is that petty? Does it really protect my dignity? Certainly, it's a consequence and it will definitely cause friction.
Do I say we put the house up for sale? she would probably have to agree to this as it is in joint names anyway. And then, if we sell it, where does that leave us? Both in a worse position and living apart. I suspect at some point she will probably take a jaunt to the states to meet the EAP, and then decide whether she really likes him or not. She's talked about that in the past, needing to meet him to know if her feelings are real. I'm not sure a brief vacation is going to make any difference. I've also said that if she did that, then the R is over. I'm not going to be her 2nd choice or safety net, although I feel like I am still a bit of a safety net at the moment.
I am finding it difficult to think of a suitable consequence without me leaving the home. I have already decided that that would be a bad idea, as well as financially difficult - I would still have to pay for everything anyway.
Some thinking needed.
It appears I have no way of enforcing my boundary - which is that she does not communicate with the EAP while in the house, especially while I or the kids are there.
You can't stop her from communicating with him, all you can do is tell her that it is inappropriate and you will not be in a relationship with her when she is in a relationship with someone else.
So what does that mean?
You get to decide.
She is involved in affair fog and there is no way that she just snaps out of it.
You need to protect yourself and your child.
You need to be the best DAD that you can possibly be.
Sometimes the best thing to do when you have no clue what to do is NOTHING.
Sit back and close your mouth, open your eyes and ears and watch what is happening.
The answers will start to come to you as you learn.
Knowledge is indeed power.
It appears I have no way of enforcing my boundary - which is that she does not communicate with the EAP while in the house, especially while I or the kids are there.
You can't stop her from communicating with him, all you can do is tell her that it is inappropriate and you will not be in a relationship with her when she is in a relationship with someone else.
So what does that mean?
You get to decide.
She is involved in affair fog and there is no way that she just snaps out of it.
You need to protect yourself and your child.
You need to be the best DAD that you can possibly be.
Sometimes the best thing to do when you have no clue what to do is NOTHING.
Sit back and close your mouth, open your eyes and ears and watch what is happening.
The answers will start to come to you as you learn.
Knowledge is indeed power.
Cadet, thank you. That last paragraph is the simple wisdom I need.
I may as well stop trying to do anything about the internet. Making her find another way or pay for another internet connection isn't really a consequence in our situation. I just didn't want to feel like an enabler, but I guess in a world we have assumed everything is joint, it's less relevant, and gives her ammunition in the 'treating me like a child' argument.
I need to think about what not being in R means to me and how to approach it with WW.
At the minute she is trying to treat me as usual. Nice when it suits her, not so nice when it doesn't - like today, I have been trying to distance/detach - so when she sent me a 'nice' text as if nothing had happened last night, I responded briefly without the reciprocal kisses at the end. She assumed I was still in a mood and then started getting a bit shirty with me at home. She still gets me to react a bit, not too badly this time.
Damn, it's tough. I thought the shock and stress of the last few months was bad, but I feel that learning to focus on being a better person and best dad I can be while keeping detached from WW is going to be even more difficult... minus the sleepless nights and not eating though! I'm past that stage. 👍
At the minute she is trying to treat me as usual. Nice when it suits her, not so nice when it doesn't - like today, I have been trying to distance/detach - so when she sent me a 'nice' text as if nothing had happened last night, I responded briefly without the reciprocal kisses at the end. She assumed I was still in a mood and then started getting a bit shirty with me at home. She still gets me to react a bit, not too badly this time.
Damn, it's tough. I thought the shock and stress of the last few months was bad, but I feel that learning to focus on being a better person and best dad I can be while keeping detached from WW is going to be even more difficult... minus the sleepless nights and not eating though! I'm past that stage. 👍
OK - suggestion - read the pursuit and distance thread, and apply that to what you have written above.
Cadet is spot on
And you do what you do for YOU, the effects on your WW are largely a sidebar.
Becoming the best you can be for you and as a dad is so special, it is that which is always going to be a winner.
Detaching means that you do this irrespective of the effect on your M, fine if it improves, fine if it does not.
You and you as a dad will always be a winner when you plough maximum efforts into you.
It's a rough time, so big hugs
V
I refer to this as an M, common law M if there is a child.
So I am adding an abbreviation CMLR for my future use.
Aide Memoir V bookmark.
V
Looks like I forgot this post.
Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka
that I totally agree with.
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.
Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
I would add: stop snooping. You already know an inappropriate relationship is happening, and she clearly isn't offering to stop it. I know how hard it is - it can become almost an obsession, but what are you going to learn that's new?
Snooping is like sipping acid. All you're doing is slowly melting yourself.
Bippy
Quite. Good way of putting it. I stopped today. Deleted the opendns account that allows me to monitor websites and block them, deleted google Hangouts app from my phone.
She will be back on skype now it's unblocked and I can't access that anyway, so should be a minimum of temptation now.
]OK - suggestion - read the pursuit and distance thread, and apply that to what you have written above.
On it. It's quite difficult. She managed to push my buttons again and I reacted.
Then she sent me a message saying that she won't beg or grovel or conform to rules or boundaries, that she smashes them down to allow herself to breathe - that she can't bring herself to do it even when it hurts her self.
I just acknowledged that I understood.
Then she responded that she still loved me, she just can't be a caged animal.
I didn't respond to that, have just been keeping it to house & kids stuff.
I will read the pursuit & distance stuff, see how I can apply it. I then need to work out the best way to approach her with the fact that I am not prepared to be in R with her while she continues the EA. As you may have guessed, she can be quite volatile, and I am no angel either when it comes to keeping my outbursts in check.
There is also the issue that I may be back in the MBR tonight (my son's gf is staying over, so needs the spare bed). Once I clarify my position on R, I imagine I will be not welcome in the MBR and there may be a battle if I want to stay in there. I'm sure it's once I can actually win if I choose, but I want to choose my battles and their timing carefully at this stage, as I am still learning and honestly still quite easy to set off, the emotions are still raw.
There will be no temptation for romance in the bedroom. We tend to use individual duvets (comforters) anyway, plus, you'll like this one: I had a vasectomy reversal 10 days ago! It was something we had agreed before I discovered EA. Put it off at one point, then WW was asking for it again when I thought she was getting rid of EAP. I went through with it, hoping that either she would have resolved her issues by now, or that we will solve them at some point in the future. If I left it much later the success rate would drop. I see it as better to have a loaded gun and not need it than need it and not have one. I don't think there is much chance of a SL at the moment, nor would I want one at this stage. We have had one throughout, which is weird, but when you're a couple I guess it is also usual.
Please stay in the MBR.
It is not you who is wayward.
Once back in that MBR, cling to it like a limpet and don't let go. Chances like this don't come very often.
Reversing a vasectomy? And WW knows she is Wayward!
Sometimes these disclosures take my breath away.
Please, please please keep those buttons out of pressing reach. I can not emphasise enough how waywards press buttons to get reactions they can use.
Your WW has been gaslighting you and knows exactly which buttons, in which order to get the reaction she might like to suit her purpose. That likely means no alcohol for you especially if you enforce boundaries.
Now is the time to be Mr Super Cool efficient business.
V
Well, she is communicating loud and clear how you have not been setting boundaries, but rather trying to control her. You did well in acknowledging how she felt.
If it were me, I would do the clarification on the R first - I assume that's "I won't have any relationship with you while you are in EA?" - correct? After that clarification, I would not push the MBR immediately.
What usually worked for me was to set the boundary during a clear calm moment, and in advance like , "I will sleep in my own bed in my own room, and I will start next Saturday" - or something like that. Be prepared for the blowup, and practice say, "I'm sorry you feel that way" lots and lots.
Well, a quick follow up. I am sleeping in the MBR tonight as planned to make room for our guest.
WW has been cordial and pleasant, and currently seems to be having a clear and calm moment. She just asked me to send her some more links to help her with 'her insanity' as she put it. I have previously sent her some info on EA's and limerence.
Does anyone know of any good resources for those who are in an EA and want help? I did say to her that it wouldn't help when it came from me, but she responded saying she just wanted links.
However, seeing the effect yesterday and last night had on her, when she couldn't contact the EAP easily, I am sure she isnt ready to take the first steps yet, which is cutting all contact. But I do take it as a positive, with no expectations of anything coming from it at this stage.
She also suffers from anxiety and sometimes depression and last time she was reading some info, it was making her anxiety worse. I do see a link between her anxiety and letting this EA develop, but I know that doesn't excuse it.
Thank you all for your kind words and advice - it means more than I can express.
Wup
She can Google her own!
As in I am having an affair and want to stop......
Keep this resource to yourself
V
Please stay in the MBR.
It is not you who is wayward.
Once back in that MBR, cling to it like a limpet and don't let go. Chances like this don't come very often.
Reversing a vasectomy? And WW knows she is Wayward!
Sometimes these disclosures take my breath away.
Please, please please keep those buttons out of pressing reach. I can not emphasise enough how waywards press buttons to get reactions they can use.
Your WW has been gaslighting you and knows exactly which buttons, in which order to get the reaction she might like to suit her purpose. That likely means no alcohol for you especially if you enforce boundaries.
Now is the time to be Mr Super Cool efficient business. .
V
Vanilla - thanks for your support. It's odd that you mention gas lighting as that is what she accused me of doing to her.
Alcohol isn't an issue, I barely touch it since my daughter was born.
I'm working on remaining calm, what I'm finding difficult is that when I'm trying to remain distant and detached, it stimulates an argument because she knows I am acting differently and thinks I am doing it to get at her rather than doing it for myself.
Wup
Keep this resource to yourself
V
Absolutely. I wouldn't put her this direction, the last thing I want her to see is this thread. It'd be pretty obvious.
Projecting her thoughts to you. Quite obvious really.
So detaching isn't distant, far from it.
Detaching is observing, letting go of the outcome. To observe it's good to be close and pay attention.
Observer mode is super cool.
V
Another thought get her to watch episodes of catfish on the TV.
Likely the OM is a dwarf with bad breath who is grooming her for white slavery.
Sandi own story is in point here.
V
It appears I have no way of enforcing my boundary - which is that she does not communicate with the EAP while in the house, especially while I or the kids are there.
Remember, the purpose of your boundaries are to protect yourself emotionally/mentally/physically. For example, I am sure you feel terribly disrespected when your W contacts EAP, especially when you and the kids are home. You could say, "When you communicate with your EAP, it causes me to feel disrespected. I will not be disrespected in my own house". You might not want to limit it to just the house, and say, "I will not be disrespected". You have told her how it makes you feel. Your boundary is about not being disrespected.
That should be the focus or point. Instead of shining the spotlight on her communicating with the OM, you are shining the light on
disrespect. Then you declare that you will not be disrespected in your own home. You are not telling her what to do. Get it? She has a choice, and you are not telling her what to choose. You are simply stating that you won't tolerate disrespect. You are not threathening her, or giving an ultimatum. You have an obligation to yourself to protect that boundary. The next time you see her communicating with the OM, how can you protect your feelings of being disrespected?
Forget about what to do
to her, for just a little while, okay? Yes, I stand by what I said about an effective boundary having stiff consequences if dishonored, but I think you are still being distracted by the consequences vs punishment. You are talking like you are defeated before even trying. So, for the time being, set aside what you could do to her. Just think about yourself. What could you do to defend yourself when experiencing disrespect? Have you ever had to stand up for yourself, face a bully, deal with disrespect in some other form from someone else? What did you do?
Considering your W's bold defiance and telling you she has no intentions of ending her contacts with the OM.......would I be wrong to think she has shown disrespect in other ways in the M? You may have thought it wasn't worth dealing with at that moment, or she'd accuse you of making too much out of it.....or you'd shrugg it off. You felt that keeping the peace was more important than having a fight about her tone of voice, eye rolling, heavy sighs, foot tapping, sarcasm, cursing, being rude in front of others, making you look like a dummy in front of your children.........the list is endless. It may have started out in a more less offensive behavior and over time it grew. Maybe it is so bad that her contemp shows in how she speaks to you, or the expression on her face, her body language, etc. Unfortunate, the nice guy H usually won't call out this type of bad behavior in his W, and her disrespect grows and she begins showing more and more rebellioun toward him and the MR.
Anyway, try to think about your feelings and how you can protect them. Don't give up and don't think of yourself as a victim. You have been wrongly treated, but you don't have to act like a helpless victim. You have choices, and you need to decide what is more important to you. And, you need to respect yourself.
Btw, don't offer to tell your WW other ways she can contact OM! Don't make deals about her continuing an EA. Don't accept the responsibility for her EA.
OK woke up
Sit next to V and let's work boundaries in a practical way.
Boundaries
You set a boundary on your actions, your tolerances and your behaviour. The things over which you have control.
You have no control over your WW and what she does. You have control over your reactions to what she does.
Oh and BTW you have no control over your feelings (another time).
--------------------------------
So can I give you an example from my own sitch?
WH, I beleve I am being abused, if you swear at me over the mobile, I will go silent on you.
WH then swears at me again two days later
WH, I asked you not to swear at me over the phone, I said I would go silent. I am now blocking your calls for 4 hrs. If it happens again I will block you for 24 hrs.
WH then abuses on the phone, a week later
WH I am being abused again my phone is blocked to you for 24 hrs, if it happens again I will no longer take calls from you.
So I ceased to take calls.
I set my boundary and I applied it.
---------------------------
The boundary is that which I tolerate and the enforcement is something under my control. I will not be abused.
Next WH if you swear at me directly, I will walk away
Etc etc etc........
Never state a boundary without a consequence and only state a consequence you can enforce and will enforce.
Recommendation no ultimatum, peeps no matter how valid your point will always over react to an ultimatum.
Example: WH and V on 2 May 2015, text
V: WH I know you are at the Casino with OW and our joint account bank card, there is a withdrawal
WH: how dare you check up on my whereabouts it is none of your business who I am with and where I go
V: WH I disagree completely although I understand why you might feel that way
WH: I do not want any criticism of what I am doing, you always criticise me, you are horrible etc
V: I am blocking you as you now as I consider this is abuse
An hr later WH arrives home
WH: I hate you and I can go wherever I like and spend as I choose
V: I have blocked our joint bank account and suspended both cards as I have advised I will not fund gambling and OW
WH: Unless you unblock now I am leaving for ever
V: OK
WH: where are the storage boxes, I am taking my stuff now and going
V: I have no idea where the storage boxes are, if you go now there is no returning for one month
And he left, to return the following day and the alarm code was changed
---------------------------
If your time sheet and invoice are not on the server for processing by the 10th of the month, then you will have to wait until the next month to be paid.
That one worked too.
--------------------------
If you pay within 20 days you will get a discount of 5%
If you pay after 30 days you will have a penalty of 5%
That one works often too.
--------------------------
So with WW, your boundary is you feel disrespected if she contacts OM in your home.
Consequence you pay your own bills
Consequence I block x
Consequence you move out
Your boundary and your consequence.
------------------------
So with WW whilst you have an OM I stay in the MBR and MH. What you do is up to you.
What she does is her choice she can stay in the MBR with you or move to the sofa, spare room, bath or closet
If it continues we need separate space and I stay in the MBR, this you can't enforce ok
I cease to pay your bills or or or or
No ML if you are PA with OM you can enforce
Your boundary, your consequence to enforce something under your control
Etc
----------------------------
Hope this helps explain my view of it, I spotted your confusion on it.
Others will no doubt chip in.
I recommend Al Turtle on boundaries he writes for teenagers on the subject and it was the only thing I could get to understand it for myself. It's full of forts, villagers, walls and invading armies. And the penny dropped for me.
V
Real link
Sorry folks
real link V
Oh and the house was purchased by me before we M and is in my sole name.
V
Now boundaries have follow up too, boundaries are not punishments. So we are reasonable and rational.
So in the example I gave on WH swearing at me on the phone and not stopping.
I followed it up at an agreed time with
When you swore at me on the phone I was very upset and had to cut your calls. I would like that we communicate well and without swearing. Can we agree to that please?
Can you tell me what was upsetting you?
WH responded he could say what he wanted it was a free country.
---------------------
We discussed last week that I am upset when I am sworn at on the phone and this has happened again. You agreed that you would not swear at me.
What can we do about this?
WH nothing I say makes any difference to you, you make me swear at you
V I don't agree but you are entitled to your view
Etc etc etc
-------------------------------
October 2014
Can we discuss please you drawing cash for your personal use from our joint account. That account is for Bills and it makes planning difficult for me. We have one card in my name for the account and if you cease to use the card for personal items then neither will I.
Please pay for your gambling and entertaining from your own account and I will pay for any of mine likewise.
I suggest that in an emergency we can check with each other the use and refund the sums.
What are your thoughts?
WH: V you are boring, I pay the money into the account for Bills, it's mine to take out if I choose to and I can spend it any way I want to
V: I don't agree at all, the money is to cover bills and I make up the difference if there is a deficit
WH: well I can't afford to pay my half into the account, so I am no longer going to pay to the joint account it's your fault V you are so crap with money and a s..t payer, you are taking the p..s with me. It's your house that I am paying for. You should sell it and give me money, I hate this house
V: WH we have no mortgages so it is just bills from that account. Well ok in which case since you are no longer going to be paying the bills please do not draw cash from the account
Then on 2 May 1016 he took the card to the casino
------------------------------
And follow up at agreed time:
Your timesheets and invoice were not on the server for me to make your payment and invoice the clients.
Can you explain to me why this is?
On this occasion I will pay you on time, can we agree that if there is an issue in future you will advise me so we can agree an ACTION? Please understand I am making an exception this time that I may chose not to make next time?
------------------------
You usually pay your invoices on time and on this occasion it was late. Is there a PROBLEM?
We do apply a penalty on late payment automatically. Can you let me know if there is a problem please in future so we can agree a strategy?
----------------------
So
WW on Tuesday you Skype OM and I could hear you. I have said that I will no longer pay for the WiFi for you to Skype and also be upset in my home. That isn't what I want particularly as it increases cost, can we agree you will cease to Skype so I can hear you?
WW I intend to stay in the MBR as this is my home, I would prefer you to be with me in the MBR and what you do is your choice and you can sleep in the MBR with me. Can we discuss what you would like to do? On Wed?
----------------------------
This is how I worked it. It was the best I could do. I forgive myself.
Sadly WH took my card and withdrew cash at the casino (I have a text alert on the cards usage), he also paid for OW flight on it. So when he issued his ultimatum I called it.
V
Another thought get her to watch episodes of catfish on the TV.
Likely the OM is a dwarf with bad breath who is grooming her for white slavery.
Sandi own story is in point here.
V
Honestly, I think you're right. I have seen the pictures she downloaded on her phone, and it ain't pretty...
Thank you so much, appreciate it.
It's been an odd day today, with ups and downs. I need to work on the detahcment, although mentally I think I am improving, and also the distancer/pursuer element, at which I am not so hot.
Ta
Remember, the purpose of your boundaries are to protect yourself emotionally/mentally/physically. For example, I am sure you feel terribly disrespected when your W contacts EAP, especially when you and the kids are home.
That is exactly it, and I have said it in those terms before to WW.
You could say, "When you communicate with your EAP, it causes me to feel disrespected. I will not be disrespected in my own house". You might not want to limit it to just the house, and say, "I will not be disrespected". You have told her how it makes you feel. Your boundary is about not being disrespected. That should be the focus or point.
I did that today. I didn't set any specific consequences other than saying I wouldn't be disrespected or have my children and family home disrespected. This evening I told her that I couldn't consider myself in R with her while she continued to be so disrespectful and contact OM.
You have an obligation to yourself to protect that boundary. The next time you see her communicating with the OM, how can you protect your feelings of being disrespected?
That's a good point. Today I did that by saying I couldn't be in R while it continued, while she was in R with OM.
Just think about yourself. What could you do to defend yourself when experiencing disrespect?
Emotional distance seems to work. I am getting to understand more about detaching, Vanilla made it make sense to me. By feeling that I am not in R while she continues, even though I want to save R. I am not hurting so much at the minute, which is good. However, I have also not got myself out of situation where I am still leaned on (family life is pretty much BAU), so I do feel that I am still being a bit too soft maybe.
Have you ever had to stand up for yourself, face a bully, deal with disrespect in some other form from someone else? What did you do?
Good point. Face to face, deep breath, and stand my ground. Call them out on it. Have done it before in various situations, but found it so much more difficult with my MR.
Considering your W's bold defiance and telling you she has no intentions of ending her contacts with the OM.......would I be wrong to think she has shown disrespect in other ways in the M? You may have thought it wasn't worth dealing with at that moment, or she'd accuse you of making too much out of it.....or you'd shrugg it off. You felt that keeping the peace was more important than having a fight about her tone of voice, eye rolling, heavy sighs, foot tapping, sarcasm, cursing, being rude in front of others, making you look like a dummy in front of your children.........the list is endless. It may have started out in a more less offensive behavior and over time it grew. Maybe it is so bad that her contemp shows in how she speaks to you, or the expression on her face, her body language, etc.
God I wish you were wrong, but you are hitting he nail on the head in so many ways. And conversely I think I am guilty as well. Little digs, disguised in humour, but really not funny, that type of thing. We should have addressed many things, many times over the years, but haven't.
Unfortunate, the nice guy H usually won't call out this type of bad behavior in his W, and her disrespect grows and she begins showing more and more rebellion toward him and the MR.
I agree, although I think that semi passive and not very good with confrontation rather than nice guy would be a better description. I don't avoid confrontation, it's just that I wasn't used to so much of it and to her it was normal for R, I tended to shy away, or want to get out into another room and avoid blowing up - WW is the opposite, and me leaving just made things worse.
Btw, don't offer to tell your WW other ways she can contact OM! Don't make deals about her continuing an EA. Don't accept the responsibility for herEA.
I've taken the view that at the moment I am not going to interfere in means of communication, or involuntarily aid and abet her. My mind, over the past 2 days, with the aid of this site and the books I have been reading, and kind posters such as yourself, has become much clearer, about focusing on myself and my kids. I am working on a plan to be the person I want to be whatever happens. I have been so so unfocused and all over the place lately, I need to get my head right for work, kids, and me.
[/quote]
V, your examples really do make so much sense to me, although I do feel for you having to have gone through the experience to need to set them.
With the skype thing, as it is mostly IM rather than VOIP, I don't so much hear it as catch her using it when I walk in a room, or have seen the domain been accessed via OpenDNS (originally used to keep teenage son off unsuitable websites, but also gave me far too much inclination to snoop). It was the knowledge that was driving me mad, that she would keep doing such a thing in our home, when I am there. What really made me angry was that she has involved him in our lives sent pics of the kids, etc etc. I blew up at her the time I found that out and made her delete the pic I had seen on her Skype, but because she deletes her convo history regularly, she couldn't delete the other pics she had sent in the past. The thought of some random weirdo having photo's of my children... well I expect you know how I feel.
The house is in joint names, we have separate accounts, and I pay mortgage and all bills, she tends to do the food shopping etc. I work as a contractor/consultant, and I employ her as an admin (works for tax reasons) and she is also 25% shareholder of my company. As pointed out elsewhere, I could make her start paying for her own connection, but the consequence is really just the ball-ache of doing it rather than financial, as it all comes from my employment anyway.
I really like your approach to the MBR issue though. I will be going there. I haven't pushed it yet, other than to tell her I will be moving back in there before Christmas. I was in there last night, but this morning she was talking about putting the spare double bed (currently in my daughter's room) into the spare room. I said fine, but there was no way I was going in that room, I had been in there a while before )as it was next to my daughter's room) and was in there when I found out about EA, and psychologically I would struggle going back in there. I stated that I could stay in MBR or stay in looking after my daughter. So I am in daughter's room tonight, although daughter changed mind and went into mummy's room at last minute, so I'm feeling a bit of a lemon.
I'll try and post on today's events, it will help me rationalise them.
The private pictures of the kids is very upsetting indeed, I understand this. FB pictures etc are somewhat public and likely innocuous.
Sadly I doubt you can stop her, you may wish to say if she sends private pictures of the kids you will research this guys background and if he has a criminal record etc. You can do that: might be a consequence to keep in the bag.
If you have the INTEL on this guy, you might find out more about him. You would need the INTEL first. It doesn't cost much to do in fact if you have the full name, age and dob. All usually on FB. I recommend you ask someone you know well in IT. That's how I found out so much about the Giggalo OW9, except he is now on OW10. So cutting her off at the pass might not make sense. The Giggalo was on the family iPad and I didn't tell him I could read all his messages, in fact for his birthday in March 2015, he had a new iPad and just left his old one (which was the Master ipad) and it had all the set ups on it. It no longer works because of apple upgrades so I set up an ipad2 with his stuff.
I switched to Samsung!
You would need info such as where he lives to know if he has a criminal record. Even if he is real. Could be a con man after money. Anything is possible, or have a string of OW.
Might be a lovely lovely man from Afghanistan, a soldier. Ha.
I am always a cynic about these things. So cutting her ability to send this guy your family cash is important. He can likely research her asset worth if she is a director of your company. You may wish to change that too.
I understand the UK tax structure, it's what I do for a living so it makes sense that you have a salary plus dividend structure.
Waywards and scrambled eggs for brains. Never ceases to amaze me.
The males are as bad as the females!
V
Today has been a mixed bag.
I spent last night in MBR, as planned, with having guest bed taken for visitor.
It was fine, maybe a bit too comfortable. We were under our individual covers, so not too close physically although at one point in the night I realised I had put my hand out to her.
Then this morning, WW asked if I wanted to have sex... I declined, mainly because of my vas reversal operation, It's too soon anyway. I'm not sure I would have had the fortitude to say no otherwise if I am brutally honest. IT just throws me that she wants to tell me we don't have an R on Friday because I am controlling her by blocking her Skype access, then is telling OM she loves him via Google hangouts, then she wants me also.
Even though I knew I was being too close, I could keep my mind more objective. It felt like she was wanting to keep a foot in both camps, or really to have her cake and eat it.
Later that morning she said that she was going to get our son to help move the spare double bed from D's room to the spare room. That caused the first ruckus. I said there was no way I was ever going back in that spare room. I could continue to stay in the MBR, as it had been fine, and it was my room as well, or I was happy to stay in with D and look after her when she wakes up in the night (I'm a light sleeper, WW isn't). She wouldn't have that, said I was been unfair to our daughter, I shouldn't be in her room, and anyway she was going to have a friend staying round so I couldn't be in then anyway, trying to make it me being awkward and causing friction.
I did tell her that I would be moving back into MBR at some point, and was intending to do so before Christmas. She could stay in if she liked.
The day was a combination of usual family BAU, various snide comments and bickering followed by periods of acting as if nothing was wrong. When I told her that I found what she was doing disrespectful, she didn't seem to care, and when I described what she was doing as an affair, she would keep saying 'I'm not having an affair', refusing to acknowledge the EA as an A.
Then later, after dinner, she asked me if I had been onto her phone in the night and accessed her skype. I hadn't, and told her so. When I said I wasn't lying she said 'someone is' and 'you're being framed then' - all a bit cryptic but sounds like OM is trying to stir it up by lying to her and blame me. She knows I don't bother lying to her. I'll either be honest or say I don't want to discuss it. She also said that she would be cutting contact with OM, slowly but surely!!! I despair sometimes.
Later in the evening, and I don't know how it came up, she even had the gall to say that I could come back in the MBR, when she was ready, just not yet! I really struggled not to react to that one. I know neither of us are angels but she is no way the victim in this one.
I think it was shortly after that I informed her that I couldn't feel in R with her while she continued to communicate with OM in the house and continue her EA. She didn't like that, but used it as another reason why I couldn't come back into MBR. I said that I would be coming back in there, and that it was my home too.
Then later at bedtime, once D was asleep and WW had got into bed, she wanted me to give her a kiss. I did after a second ask. She then said I neglected her, and I agreed but that it was difficult at the moment. She then said she meant before the EA had started. I acknowledge that and that we had both done many things that were wrong and that we would need to work on together in the future, once EA is severed and we are working on our R. I told WW wife that she was putting EA first, thinking it was more important than our R. She said it wasn't. I said if that was true, she would have ended it.
Really feels like she wants to have cake and eat it. Also feels like she will want to sweep it under rug once it is over, and basically ignore he turmoil and upheaval it has caused. I'm sure she has convinced herself she is the victim in all of this. When I told her it would take a long time to work things out, once the EA was over, she was all 'no it won't , we can soon be back to how things were'... No way. I let her know that 'how things were' was obviously not working, and we both needed to fix a lot of things, most probably with professional help. She wasn't receptive to this idea either. Apparently we are British, we don't need to use therapists! probably explains why we're so screwed up over here!
Last thing she wanted me to hold her and kiss her, but I told her I couldn't while things were like they were. She went a bit cooler after that, but I think in a more understanding sort of way. Things are different, this isn't a game, and it wan't about me being angry and trying to get at her. It would have been the easiest thing in the world for me to hold her, but where would that leave me? Would just open me up for more pain the next time something bad happens. Not sure if this is detachment, or distance or what, but felt like the right thing for me.
D
WW wants to do that. Her iPhone is on way out and she has figured that I am on top of all the syncing between devices that goes on.
You would need info such as where he lives to know if he has a criminal record. Even if he is real. Could be a con man after money. Anything is possible, or have a string of OW.
Seems to be real, have done all that already. Name, address, dob, phone. HAven't bothered with background check yet. Apparently he has offered to send her money so she can 'get away'... I'm sure she has given him the tale of how tragic it is she is trapped with me.[/quote]
I am always a cynic about these things. So cutting her ability to send this guy your family cash is important. He can likely research her asset worth if she is a director of your company. You may wish to change that too.
She is not a director, just a shareholder, and I never gave her access to the company account. But yes, OM has searched internet, and Companies House gives far too much info out publicly, so he has our address, company details, turnover, knows she is a shareholder etc. I think worst case scenario is that she is squirrelling money away so she can fly out to see him, although he has threatened to fly over here to hand out an 'ass whopping' to me in the past.
I don't trust him though. The guys really has nothing going for him, and nothing to lose in pursuing this. He also knows that if we split and sell the house that WW will be sitting on some cash. The messages I have seen from him strike me as pure manipulation, but I am looking at it from an outside perspective. Even WW has described it as a form of attention, flattery and guilt. But she knows this and still chooses to continue, still chooses to believe that it might be love, on some days convinced it is love. Brain chemicals eh? THis looks to me completely like limerance, possibly a bit of MLC involved. Her 'withdrawal symptoms' on Friday night convinced me.
Waywards and scrambled eggs for brains. Never ceases to amaze me.
The males are as bad as the females!
V
Amen to that
Well done.
You are setting your boundaries, just acknowledge she objects too, validation.
I can see why you say that.
Yes it's two sided.
I want us to work on our R and take our time.
My body is still recovering from my op WW, I am taking great care.
----------------
No use of the word but, as it invalidates the previous Validation.
You got this.
V
Thanks Cristy
I'll find a convenient time when I have some privacy, and can work the time zones - you're 7 hrs behind the UK
Hello Woke_Up,
Yes, we have a 7 hour time difference. I'll be here today until midnight your time.
I'm looking forward to speaking with you. I'm confident that we will be able to find a time that works nicely for you even though there is a bit of a time difference.
Cristy
Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004
Thank you, Vanilla, you really have helped, am starting to get a clearer mind.
Well, it has been a fairly quiet couple of days, very little drama. I'm back at work after my op.
Yesterday WW & I exchanged some texts, she sent me a nice pic of me & D. Then she said she needed help... with 'the problem' as she put it. Her anxiety had been bad the previous night, like a heart attack.
I replied "My thoughts, if you want them... it is inextricably linked with your anxiety. Among other things, it probably started easing it, made you feel less alone and isolated. The thought of removing it is like the thought of removing your medicine, never mind the removal of the other addictive aspects.
You just have to know that you are not alone, not isolated - we have lots of issues to work out, work together to rebuild our relationship to be better and stronger than it was, than we ever thought it could be. I know we can do that. We can do anything we put our minds to. Xx"
Maybe too much, I don't know.
She also said she felt messed up in the head and and said reading some of the affair recovery info on the web 'really messes with you'.
I told her she needed a plan to cope once she made her decision, and have friends, strategies, temptation resisting techniques etc, but she probably knew that already.
She felt that actually doing it was the problem (I assume she meant cutting off EA) and also the tantrum that would ensue from OM. She then said that she just needed me to look after her, and that she was a little deranged.
At that point I let her know I had a copy of Torn Asunder (under my pillow), hadn't started reading it yet but she might find it useful.
I also told her that the doing was something that she had to be ready to commit to, and that she could approach it in such a way that she didn't have to suffer OM tantrums, just take the advice of various ending affair web sites (NC letter, cut off comms etc). I told her I couldn't help her to come to that decision, I'd tried and failed and been pushing her further away, but that I am there and will be there to work on us & making things better afterwards, that I chose her for life.
I mean it all, but it feels like I am being too much of a support for her to lean on? She needs to get to the right place mentally herself. Everything I read says I am the last person who should give her advice, but I don't think she will talk to anyone else now. That said, in the context we were talking, I don't think it immediately pushed her away or was dismissed by her.
When I got home she had been reading the book, she was fairly tired. We didn't talk too much, just exchanged some pleasantries. She had moved some furniture around, and instead of my usual 'why did you bother' response, or "why didn't you wait for me do do the heavy stuff", etc. I told her that it looked good with what she had done with it, and started to ask her about what she wanted to do next, what colour was she thinking of painting it, etc. I'm starting to realise that I usually focus on my own feelings about stuff first before realising and appreciating what she has done. Sometimes I won't like it, but sometimes, I will, and I should make that known.
I've been reading DR, set some goals, now up to Step 6. I need to go back and do some revision, and maybe refine my goals a bit. Starting to think about the small changes I can make about how I handle things that will make me feel better about myself and will probably make WW feel better about me - gain some confidence in myself & my abilities again. I haven't lost it all, but I know I am not firing on all cylinders at the moment.
Today has been quiet again, just a few text messages regarding children, train delays, and reminding her about her blood test (related to anxiety, in case there is anything else at play).
Work was better also. I felt my head was screwed on again, felt more focussed. I need to be because the last few months have been way off due to the home situation.
I know I'm not out of the woods, no corners have been turned, and bad days will inevitably follow, but hopefully good days too. Until the point she has terminated EA, and opened up to me again. She is really conscious about her privacy and detests the fact that I snooped and looked at her comms to OM on her phone, likening it to reading her diary, or violating her human rights. My ability to trust is shaken, so if she keeps me locked out, I will suspect the worst.
These are challenges for the days ahead.
Thank you everyone on this forum. I shall keep on with DR, keep on with detachment, and try and get the hang of distancer/pursuer, as I feel I am still being a bit too eager at times.
I don't have this at all... yesterday I worked from home, no arguments, everything ok, just felt like a backwards step, considering WW is still wayward. I even caved and we ended up ML when she asked.
Today things praying on my mind, ended up having words as I think she is still messaging OM on her phone in the house. I don't know how to distance myself.
I'm confusing myself with what to do next.
So, WW is still contacting EAP from within the home.
Although I only know this for certain because I chances a look at her phone. So much for not snooping.It just confirmed what I already knew in my mind. I said to her that she was still disrespecting me, the family and the family home, but she didn't respond. She just tried to be nice to me still. I realised I had slipped and tried to detach and be positive/happy appearance after that.
Anyway, back in the MBR tonight and this time I intend to hang on in there.
I've read most of DR now, well chapters 1-7 and ch 10 on infidelity. I know I am not drawing back enough, everything is so intertwined, it's still like we are in R as usual, I need to be firmer in my stances. My lack of conviction/commitment to a course of action or my worry about WW's reactions is turning me into an unwilling participant in this scenario.
I don't have this at all... yesterday I worked from home, no arguments, everything ok, just felt like a backwards step, considering WW is still wayward. I even caved and we ended up ML when she asked.
Today things praying on my mind, ended up having words as I think she is still messaging OM on her phone in the house. I don't know how to distance myself.
I'm confusing myself with what to do next.
Is ML still a positive or do you feel used? I still ML to my W too despite our issues.
Hi Gordie
I don't feel used, more that it doesn't feel quite right with the current situation. I also think it adds to her cake and eating it situation, in that our R is still rolling along, even if it's in this rut.
The other side is that I like it, it helps me feel closer, and gives me hope that we will sort things out.
Today was difficult at times, but think I did OK.
Still sipping acid, as it was put, confirmed that WW is contacting EAP from within home. Let it go.
WW received a phone call from her dad letting her know her grandfather had died suddenly, so this affected her a bit. I was a combination of supportive and giving her space.
Kept myself fairly busy today. D had a friend staying over, so played with them, got outside to wash the car. Then W let me know that I was meant to be going with her & D to visit father christmas - I had believed it was a mother's only thing, but other H's were going as well. In the end, just I went, as W wasn't feeling too well, physically and mentally, so went & had a good time with D.
Later, saw that she had been communicating with OM fairly regularly throughout the day, and had even sent a photo of my D and her friend when they were playing yesterday. This is my usual red rag to a bull. However, I swallowed it all. Realised confrontation would not do any good. Photo was from a distance, so you couldn't really see much of the girls.
Also saw that OM was putting a bit of pressure on her, wanting to know if she was with me when they first started communicating (her answer was 'kinda'). Asking her if she would leave (initially she said no), but later in her comms she talked about selling house and leaving etc. I think this is bull as she asked me to cancel the house valuation that was planned for last week, and was given in response to OM's emotional pressure.
I just buried it all, realised that she is in the fog, realised that I am not really helping myself by snooping, even though it lets me know OM is getting frustrated and all is not rosy in the garden.
I stayed pleasant, remained calm and detached, but sociable. I talked to her a bit, asked how she was feeling about grandad etc (all the normal stuff you would do) but without smothering her. Later, as I was standing at the sink she came up and gave me a hug from behind.
Anyway, she went to bed, I came downstairs to work on GAL (I have an online course I'm working on for a new qualification, which should help me get a job closer to home). Nothing mentioned about the MBR, and I guess she knows I'm planning on staying in there - she looked a bit worried earlier, but said nothing later, and later seemed relaxed. I guess the proof in the pudding will be when I go up to bed.
So, I won't be messaging her when I'm at work, but will respond if she messages me, and when I'm home I will try and work on my conversation skills - I know these are lacking and one of the causes of friction within our R. It's a bit of a 180 for me to be more proactive in that department, and it doesn't come easy - I may need to get some self help material.
So, I may not be effectively enforcing my boundaries, but I feel I am protecting them by keep my emotions in check. Yes, I still feel disrespected, but I also know she's so much in the fog that she doesn't even consider this and that any knee jerk reactions will only push her away at this stage. On the other hand, I won't facilitate her. She wants a new phone, I won't buy it for her, she wants a new charging cable, I won't buy it for her, she wants her phone credit topping up, I won't do it. I can see some arguments arising from this, but I don't think she can accuse me of treating her like a child if I insist she takes full responsibility for communicating with her EAP.
One day at a time, as they say, but I'm feeling positive at the minute.
Thank you everyone who has given advice, shared resources, and generally helped me. You are all genuine stars.
I am pro ML if it works. Do that which works.
I stopped when the Giggalo put my health at risk. Then I am high drive and that was March 2014.
Been a long time since, so thanks for the memories,
I won't be making new ones with a wayward.
V
Well, I was wrong. Here I am in D's room. WW is on her period, hot and bothered and decided to make an issue of my being in there. Threatened to keep me awake all night. I initially said fine, I would just take day off work and. It get paid, everyone would lose.
Then starting using her grandad's death as a weapon against me, as well as saying I was raping her by being in there (weaponised words, anyone?) and that I hadn't given her warning, that I was killing love and breeding hatred by forcing my way in there.
I said I couldn't believe she was using her bereavement as a weapon, and that it was her affair that was making her want me out of the room, not her bereavement.
Anyway, I have relented (given the fact that her granddad has just died), however, said I will move in tomorrow. She has said she will move out into the other room. I said it was her choice. She said she didn't see it that way, and she didn't think anyone else would either.
I am serious though, I will be in there tomorrow night. If I am not? Feel free to slap me with a very large, very wet fish.
The reactive part of me wants to block her damn phone off our internet connection. The thinking part says don't.
Should've seen this coming
She is really using every weapon to guilt you.
Please record her saying that she will accuse you of rape. This is very important indeed. Do not under estimate the importance of it.
Listen to V very carefully indeed, download a recorder app and do not under any circumstances let her know you have this. E-mail to yourself elsewhere and your L.
Also advise your L of this conversation immediately and you may wish to have this documented officially somewhere as well as here.
This is out of order completely. I suggest you blow it wide open in a conversation with a third party if you can.
I can not emphasise the seriousness of this.
Do not drink anywhere near her at all.
Keep posting
V
Abuse continues this morning via text message. Blaming me for leaving 2nd car seat in from D's friend, that she can't get out. Blaming me for lack of sleep, saying I don't want to mess with her, and that I won't mess with her tonight. Ended with the C-word. Nice.
I replied with a message explaining how to remove the car seat. Nothing more.
She is really using every weapon to guilt you.
Please record her saying that she will accuse you of rape. This is very important indeed. Do not under estimate the importance of it.
V
Well, she didn't actually say she would accuse me of rape, she was calling me a rapist for being in the bed/MBR. That I was forcing my way in there. That I was raping her by being in there when she didn't want me in there.
However, I get what you mean. I already have a voice activated recorder, looks like a USB stick, thought it may be useful. Looks like I'll have to carry that at all times, even bed time.
It saddens me when it gets like this. I need to find a trusted 3rd party to speak to. I don't really have anyone. I told 1 person at work about the EA when it first came to light and I was all over the place mentally, but that's it.
I don't even have a L at the moment. Guess I need to find one.
Thanks V
Update. She is continuing abuse by text, blaming me for her feeling ill/lack of sleep. Asked me to tell son why she is in a bad mood, so I asked if I should tell him the whole truth (meaning continuing EA). She said I should tell him I am a rapist, that I like to rape people when their relatives die, and continued to call me a rapist several times in text messages.
I asked her to stop with the baseless accusations and that what she was doing was abusive.
I did manage to say in the middle of it that I wanted to talk about it in a calm manner, understand the problems she has with me moving back in and resolve it before Christmas. No response to that.
I'm learning lessons the hard way about how volatile a wayward is.
I'm going to need to make time to see a L this week.
I'm learning lessons the hard way about how volatile a wayward is.
Yep, if they weren't so cruel, they'd be a wonderful source of befuddling entertainment.
Update:
Now she is telling me she will fight to stay in her room. Physically if necessary. Well I assume that's what she means. She said she won't use words this time, she will defend her territory.
Threatening to try and take everything off me in court etc etc. How do I disengage from this conflict? If I go into the bedroom, it looks as though it will be a physical confrontation, which I don't want. Unfortunately all those months I spent looking after D in another rom have worked against me, and WW thinks she is entitled to her own room/bathroom. Couldn't have had this issue in the old house, wasn't big enough.
I can't mentally face going into the spare room again. My D's room is bad enough when my D is sleeping in the MBR with WW.
Now she just sent me another link on marital rape. This just feels ridiculous.
Sweetheart get yourself an L urgently.
False accusations of rape can get her arrested, send the messages to a safe location by screen shot.
I think that immediate action is needed and now. Please consult with a third party. You may need to report her accusations to the police in advance.
I really don't like this at all.
It could be that you state to her that if she persists in her false accusations you will take action. If she rings the police you may get ejected from your home, so it might be best to have a pre-emptive discussion and report her accusations. I think you really need an L.
Whatever you do record and document, have your paperwork etc ready. Even a false accusation can create court difficulties for you.
My alarm bells are ringing.
V
Woke_Up,
Vanilla asked me to post. I have not fully read your sitch. It has many, many similarities to mine, but don't worry too much about reading that for now. Do what V said, send screen shots to cover your backside if you get a knock at the door from the police. My view is you will not. She will threaten you, but not carry out those threats mostly is my experience. I had threats of calling the police etc. Never happened - I don't even know what over TBH.
Some things.
1. For now, don't worry about where you sleep.
2. Do not engage with her at all. If she talks to you, listen, but STFU. If she starts to rage - exit.
3. Your job is to protect you and your kids from being expose to her rages. She will try to suck you in. This is so important. You must not engage at all - EVER. How? You can d what I did, look at her as mentally ill. Sad, lonely and lost. Do not fear her. No matter how frightening she looks. Just focus on keeping calm and looking normal - kind of in an almost 'so what or oh dear never mind way'. You must listen kindly but not be scared - this is very hard. But essential. If you need to understand anything right now google "the drama triangle" - watch a few videos on this. She will want you to persecute you - if she tries to sound upset (victim) etc, she will switch roles on you and and make your the victim. It's a game. Exit it if you fall into the trap (by leaving the room etc) or better still. Just don't engage.
4. Don't mention OM or contact at all and do not snoop.
5. Go for a 20 min run every day at the same time. This gives you both space and gives you time to sort your head. If you are not a runner, walk. Do it at the time you are usually strung out. It will also help you calm your emotions.
6. Do not drink, take drugs and if you can avoid it smoke. These will all stimulate anxiety in you.
7. Download a mindfulness app. They are free. Calm, Headspace etc there are others. Listen to these as often as you can to calm your mind.
8. Read all of the info. you are guided to on here.
You are now on a journey that is going to be hard. I am sorry. This is not your fault. Your W has some issues. Do not be hard on yourself. You did not cause this (I am not saying you are perfect - who is) you also can not stop it. Become super resilient. The guy that can take all the punches for you and kids. You need to do this until you feel steady on your feet - so Act As If. Be kind and be the lighthouse.
I will check in again. Stay strong. You will feel fear right now. Try to distance from it as much as possible. When you have done that you will feel calmer and you will see gaps in your W's fog. You will then see her intermittently and will be able to work on your R. This is going to be a bumpy ride. But you will all calm down again and you will be happy.
Surfer.
Thanks Surfer, Thanks V
I kept my voice recorder on me last night. Unfortunately quality not great - was in my trouser pocket, so picked up scratching against keys much better than voice audio, but I should be able to clear it up on some of my audio editing software.
I was in a pretty bad mood. WW was calmer. She said I was hostile, I just said I was very upset at being called a rapist, to which her reply was that she wouldn't be punished. I said it was her punishing me for her EA, as this was the only reason I was out of the MBR. This should be on the recording.
I spoke about me moving into the study and making that my room. This works for me, as I don't have the bad memories as I do from being in the spare room when I found out about EA, and it also makes a statement that I will have my own space and not be treated like a 2nd class citizen in my own home and shoved into the spare room. It also buggers up her plans for the study, so she doesn't seem to keen, but hopefully it will get cogs turning in her mind.
Anyway, we talked calmly later, talked about her granddad's death, talked about her messages to me. I asked her to take it back, and she verbally did - hopefully this is recorded also. I asked for her to do it in text, she hasn't but did say that she wasn't going to send it to the police or anything like that - also hopefully on the recording.
She said she would be ending her EA soon (heard that before) but that didn't mean I could just barge my way into the room. Unsolicited, she told me she loved me a couple of times. She also talked bout the EAP a little bit, in a critical fashion.
So, WW is a bit of a swingometer at the minute, and the slightest thing can set her off. I will keep the voice recorder on me.
I have taken your advice and screen captured the messages - they are also synced to my laptop. I emailed them to 2 different accounts.
Still planning to see a L ASAP, together with evidence of messages. Hopefully never be needed but I understand the importance of protecting myself for the future should the worst come to the worst.
I will work on the other points, particularly listening without engaging (difficult). I think that has to be the way, as history has shown that exiting usually makes matters worse - she perceives it as running away from a resolution whereas I perceive it as giving myself space to keep calm.
Number 6 on your list is no problem, worst vice I have these days is vaping.
No 5 is difficult due to my hours at work, getting home late, getting D to bed and settled. It was after 9PM before I even had time to think last night, and then had to be dad's taxi for S. I generally do some exercise every night before bed though.
Thank you, though, just thank you. The advice is great, and it's good to know that I'm not alone, that others have been through very similar things, and have come out the other side.
Wake_Up
Be careful with this:
it's good to know that I'm not alone, that others have been through very similar things, and have come out the other side.
None of us really get out of the other side unless we fully reconcile (past piecing). This, in my view, is rare in some circumstances. With yours there appears to be no violence, or PA's. You may be lucky, but don't count on it. My sitch has been going on got years and living separate. W still calls to spew, you just have to learn how to manage the R.
RE: leaving the room. If she is spewing and kids are hearing, unless she calms when you sit and listen, get out. It's the kids that need protecting too. Its a tricky balance. I sued to make sure I tried to prevent W going 'weapons hot' until after bed. Even then I used to avoid so they did not get woken up. You need to make every interaction positive. Bad interactions don't allow positive ones and it will be the positive interactions that help. That being said, listening, validating etc to help calm her and let her know you are hearing her will help. It's a fine balance (listen and validate or exit) only you will know what to do when it's trial and error. You need to see this as an experiment (try this, does it work, change and try something else, does it help....etc).
Main thing right now is find space do not disagree with her, listen when you can, she will tell you what is going wrong for her. If you disagree with her and justify your actions, she will put her wall up higher. Just listen and agree where you can or don't, just say you understand.
Sorry but when a Spouse hits this path, it's almost like they are another person, but perhaps its kind of easier to see them as mentally damaged. I don't mean pity them, run around them, but be kind - don't have confrontations, don't criticise, don't hover around them or eggshell walk. If she starts spewing/raging try picturing not giving a sh!t in your mind - but listen (I like the Windsor Davies Video - google "windsor davies, oh dear, how sad never mind". It just makes you smile a bit inside to stop being freaked out by the madness when the spew is on the boil!
That's enough for now. I am going to sit and read your sitch now.
Keep posting. The more you post the more we see how you both interact and possible most importantly, what traits your W has. It kind of helps to diagnose what is going on so advice for you can be better targeted.
Remember - keep calm, cool and no R talk/OM talk from you etc.
Surfer.
Actually, to correct myself. You do get out 'the other side' ( you deal with it) but everything is NOT the same. However, you don't want what it was. You want it what it could be.
Surfer.
Okay. Read your sitch. I am ready for the update. I imagine it will be more of the same. Some quieter some more crazy. Are you seeing a pattern in her normal, stress, crazy type behaviours?
Have you noticed what triggers the changes?
Surfer
Thank you surfer
Please let us know how you are Woke Up.
V
Woke_Up
If you check my latest post on my thread you will see how I take control of the spew. It's harder to do face to face when the kids are around.
It might help.
Surfer.
Wake_Up
Be careful with this:
it's good to know that I'm not alone, that others have been through very similar things, and have come out the other side.
None of us really get out of the other side unless we fully reconcile (past piecing).
I think I meant what you posted next - not that everything ends up rosy in the garden, but that you get through it a stronger and hopefully a better person, whatever the final outcome of the R.
Remember - keep calm, cool and no R talk/OM talk from you etc.
Doing my best. Last night was reasonably calm. I got home from work, and she was stressed out with illness and D, who was whingy & tired. Other than a couple of not so pleasant comments from her to start with (started criticising me for the way I was attempting to distract D from whining and get her settled), it was OK. I looked after D, got her ready for bed, read to her, and let the W escape downstairs to relax, take painkillers, do whatever she needed to.
Later we just talked downstairs a bit, mostly about if she should change her hair colour; the only possible source of conflict was her phone (she wants a new one as current one is playing up, but I said fine if she had the funds, but not to ask me to get involved with enabling her comms). Fortunately it didn't get out of hand, although she did say 'well I need it to be in touch with you as well' or words to that effect.
She even had me rub her back at one point, and said I was good at calming her.
Went to bed separately as usual, at a reasonable hour, but she still messaged me to check on D (who was in her room) when D was restless and making noise. I've pretty much done the night time duties, so it's not a problem, I always thought of it as 'my time' with D.
Actually, to correct myself. You do get out 'the other side' ( you deal with it) but everything is NOT the same. However, you don't want what it was. You want it what it could be.
Surfer.
That's what I was meaning. If I come out of it a better, more proactive and positive person, and the best dad I can be, that's a goal to strive for. At this stage I don't know whether the R will survive, but if it does it will need to be different. I have said as much to W in text messages when we have been communicating that way.
I also know I need to GAL more, I lost all my hobbies pretty much since D was born, especially since I started working so far away from home, now with a 3 hour commute each way. Then again, part of my GAL is studying (online) for a new qualification which should enable more job opportunities closer to home. That would help in a lot of areas.
Woke_Up
If you check my latest post on my thread you will see how I take control of the spew. It's harder to do face to face when the kids are around.
It might help.
Surfer.
Thanks Surfer. I have read your most recent, and am now reading through your entire latest thread. I have not got back to your original thread yet.
Yes, face to face is hardest, and it usually happens face to face, often in front of kids. This has been a pattern throughout our R.
There are a lot of factors at play here and I will try and go into more historical detail a bit later. Suffice to say for now, she was raised in a very conflict driven and abusive household and I was raised in a conflict free household. To her, conflict is the norm, and to me it is the opposite and therefore I became very conflict averse, not knowing how to deal with it. Throughout my life, I see now, not just this R.
I have also read up on the drama triangle and ordered a couple of books from Amazon to help me. I think I am often rescuer and victim and W is often victim and persecutor. I am trying to work out how I can recognise these situations and break out of them.
Thanks again. I will update soon.
Okay. Read your sitch. I am ready for the update. I imagine it will be more of the same. Some quieter some more crazy. Are you seeing a pattern in her normal, stress, crazy type behaviours?
Have you noticed what triggers the changes?
Surfer
I will need to pay attention.
So far, triggers are hormonal - always throughout our R, she suffers from bad PMS, which displays as anger, aggression, conflict, verbal abuse.
During pregnancy it was x10 and we nearly split at one point. However this is now all my fault for not being understanding to her during pregnancy. I know I made mistakes, but bloody hell, it was a no win sitch at times.
Other triggers include tiredness, lack of sleep, illness - she takes meds for anxiety and depression, which triggered in Jan 2016. The cause for anxiety was triggered by external events, but also due to different opinions on some elements led to distance and conflict between us, which led her to find like minded people on social media, which led her unintentionally into EA (I paraphrase her words). She has accused me of driving her to it, although she acknowledges this is not entirely true usually. Yes, my issues are part of the problem with our R, I have accepted, acknowledged, validated that.
Last night it was a bad day that triggered a mini spew - whiny D, illness and anxiety that day. Initially it was thank god you're back, I need help, but soon it was criticism of voice I was using with daughter - why are you using a baby voice too, speak to her like an adult, etc. All this in front of D. ( I had been trying to distract D with her toys, funny voices etc, to break her out of her whinge, you know how kids are). I did react mildly, initially, but did get W to go downstairs once D was ready for bed so she could relax. I could then read story, get D to sleep.
I also suspect that what is going on in her EA can impact her and cause her to spew, although this is conjecture on my part, and as I am working on not snooping, I will not know this. I have seen what I would classify as classic manipulation on the part of the EAP - professions of undying love, I know you would never hurt me, loving you is like breathing, etc etc. I also learned about limerance at this point, and gained a better understanding of what is happening to WW and why I cannot do anything to break her out of it.
Certainly an addictive element to some behaviours. Rage, make up, repeat. I also definitely saw that when I blocked her Skype connection and she was going through withdrawal from being able to contact EAP.
When upset, her go to response is conflict.
I need to detach and observe more. One thing that was pointed out a few years ago, when I was doing the task oriented thinking training, was that I tend to miss things, by not attentively listening, as my mind is racing ahead and trying to think of responses 2 or 3 moves in the future. By doing this I miss the importance of what is being said in the now and the other person assumes I am not taking them seriously or listening at all.
I am trying to focus on attentive listening & validation.
Thank you surfer
Please let us know how you are Woke Up.
V
I'm doing OK, thanks V. Really appreciating all of the help, advice, and pointers to helpful resources. I have blips and react. We seem to be out of the overt aggression / weaponised words at the moment, now that I am not pressuring the MBR issue.
Quick reflection: Putting myself in her shoes, it has been her room for many months, as I moved to look after D who kept getting up in the night, a couple of months into the new house. This was as much for my selfish reasons, as I found it less disturbing to settle her when in the same room. Since then we have pretty much slept in different rooms. My clothes were always in the spare room, she had the MBR for her clothes. The en-suite bathroom was the 'girls' the main bathroom was the 'boys'. OK, from my view, she has pretty much selfishly taken over the house as her own, and dictated what each room is for, however, I see that she feels I am invading her space by going back in to the MBR.
From my perspective, it should never have got to this point. The house shouldn't have been seen as hers to do with what she wanted to, I shouldn't have stayed in D's room so long and then transferred to spare room, next to D's room. (Actually WW transferred me by tidying up the D's room, so I moved from mattress on floor to crappy single bed in spare room, so still close to D when she woke).
I was in this when I found out about EA. It was awful. I went through the whole little/no sleep cycle at this time, which when you get up at 5am for work each day, doesn't help.
When D wanted to move back into W's room (she was in the feeling scared/monsters phase), I attempted to move straight back in there (my reason for not being in there was gone). She resisted, this caused arguments. I then said OK, and gave her a day on which I would move back in. On that day I moved D's cot bed in there and moved back in, and was accused of forcing my way in there, but managed to go in and stay there. She ordered a new bed. This ended up in S's room, after a few arguments, including me threatening to take it outside and chop it up. My bad.
However, a couple of occasions I accidentally woke her up and caused arguments, the latest time I exploded back, due to my emotions about EA (I'd been sitting awake a couple of hours). Then she was moving out (she had ordered another new double bed for herself to have in D's or spare room after first argument). But then I was guilted into moving out.
Been out since, apart from 2 nights when people stayed over and required spare bed.
I want to claim my own space in then house though, which is why I think I shall have the study downstairs.
I'm just trying to figure out where I fit in this cycle of emotions, as I am sure I am reinforcing behaviours. Starting on a long journey of self discovery and healing - hoping that WW will come along too, even if unintentionally.
Anyway, that turned into a ramble, just free flowing my thoughts at the minute while sitting on the train home.
Thanks again
Okay. Read up on all this....apart from last 2 posts, I need more time for these.
Not sure I would give her a back rub. In my view she is temp checking and maki g sure you are still on the hook. Personally, I would have said, "Sorry. I don't feel like it."
Magnesium supplements and others can help with PMS. If she recognises the problem she should be active in preventing it. She may have had years of sprewing at you and others thinking this is just what you do because you ha e a period. To me that's horsesh!t. I am sure PMS is horrible. However, that's no excuse. I know al sorts of people with real chronic pain and they don't beat up on others. No, there's no excuse. If she uses that as an excuse next time, set a boundary. Tell her you hear that she is sorry but she had bad PMS but......other with chronic etc....so no that's not acceptable. Go get help, there are supplements the doctor can prescribe to prevent this. Tell her you won't tolerate it again and [insert an appropriate consequence - it needs to be related; i.e. Speak to me like that again and I will cut off a communication source for a week IDK V is better at this. Not set many boundaries yet.
I will revert when I have read your last 2 posts in detail.
Surfer.
Woke_Up
I won't comment further on PMS etc. I have done this to death!
However, I have read the rest and my views FWIW are:
she takes meds for anxiety and depression, which triggered in Jan 2016
What triggered this - there is usually a life changing event. Or do you think there was something lurking in the background? What is your gut feel if you are not sure?
Surfer.
To clarify, RE: Depression and anxiety.
Specifically - what were the "external events" and what are "your issues"? you need to be really honest on your issues BTW. Were you opinionated, putting her opinions aside, perhaps working too hard or drinking too much? This is all pretty standard fare. Some smoke weed or become hooked on anti-depressants.
Surfer.
RE: Tiredness.
Spot her trigger times. If its tiredness or struggling to cope, it will (most likely) be the case that she has a hair trigger first thing in the morning and last thing at night. IMO, avoid all comms in the morning. Just get the routine done. this way you make sure the kids are protected.
IDK if you W works? Does she/you what are your jobs. Are they stressful? Rather than pursue her during the day, you could let her know (just once clearly, at the appropriate time) that you know anxiety is hard to deal with and whilst you don't fully understand how she feels she can call you at work if things feel on top of her. I am in two minds about this as she might just use this to spew. But my experience is that there are certain times in the day when an anxious and angry WW will be very much able to talk. My W was good just after leaving work. Seemed to have that teenage happiness of leaving school for the day... (perhaps thats telling!).
I would be functional at home until the kids are in bed and get your exercise in for 20 mins then (or in the morning - you may need both at times). Make it CV - run, swim or light CV and weights IMHO. This will fortify you.
Evenings are the trickiest. I would avoid her totally personally if possible and certainly until the kids are in bed and fast asleep. Particularly D4. You do not want her hearing any shouting at all or SS16. It frightens small children. They can recover but it does scar them. You must be the adult here where your W is not. If W comes to talk in the evening, she will start of in Victim mode most likely. you will go Rescuer and she will push you into Victim and them turn Persecutor (Drama Triangle). You need to spot such patterns in conversation, and exit them. It's the only way out. You can't win at this game. If she spews listen to the point it may become audible for the kids and say something like "I am listening to you, but you are starting to shout. I don't think its a good idea to frighten the kids and I am sure you don't want that too. Let's leave this for now." if she continues. Just say "Stop". I can't help you tonight. If you can talk calmly, "I will listen (and I am), but when you escalate like this, it's no good for them, you or me". "I am happy to listen tomorrow if you want to talk." Repeat until fade. Please note, this may not work at all in the way you think it will. You W may rage against not being able to rage. She may feel more isolated - IDK, mine did. But I know it protected my kids and set boundaries in terms of my own self respect. I would do it again. You need to make up your mind though. Move, 180, test etc. Give it a go.
Surfer.
Last night it was a bad day that triggered a mini spew - whiny D, illness and anxiety that day. Initially it was thank god you're back, I need help, but soon it was criticism of voice I was using with daughter - why are you using a baby voice too, speak to her like an adult, etc. All this in front of D. ( I had been trying to distract D with her toys, funny voices etc, to break her out of her whinge, you know how kids are). I did react mildly, initially, but did get W to go downstairs once D was ready for bed so she could relax. I could then read story, get D to sleep.
This is just normal life. Tired Mum, good Dad. She is poking you to get a rise. She is anxious. I don't know why, neither do you. You never will and she most likely will never share her true feelings with you on this. I think your answer lies somewhere in "The Verbally Abusive Relationship" book. It could be medically based. It might, at present, be addiction anxiety, pre-occupied with a 'need to get a fix of OM' or a 'need' to let go at you. Either way. Just do not engage.
You will see this is the main point of my advice at this stage. I have lived exactly what you have been through. I know it intimately as do many others here. You need to develop skills to detach from her when spew happens. This means seeing and hearing her but not feeling her emotions. I was trying to think last night of the best way to describe how this works - I didn't spend too long clearly but I came up with this, it does the job:
You are standing at the checkout, too middle senior ladies are there. One accidentally bumps into the other with her shopping trolley. An argument ensues. Its heated and its got come venom. But you know there will be no danger. It's just venom. You observe. Inside it's even mildly amusing but you don't show that. You are more kind of "this is just a sad way to behave". You listen and are objective about what they say as a person within reach". You leave and go about your day and think nothing more of it (at this stage, the argument has stopped, is ongoing or one of the ladies is being cuffed and scuffed only floor by the local militia). Try and picture a way of observing your W when she pokes you (this is "rage foreplay" - recognise it decline it) or even goes Victim - don't Rescue, validate "that sounds hard etc"(Windsor Davies inside). Also, if one of the old ladies invited you into the debate what would you do? Decline! (see Let's you and Him Have a Fight - "Games People Play" by Eric Berne).
Surfer.
focus on attentive listening & validation.
Perfect. Don't over validate though. You are not some pu$$y. You must be a man about this. Be kind and caring, as you are clearly, but FFS do not let her have you b@lls as earrings. A Windsor Davies attitude inside will help YOU (
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4uivPpzCGo). You will get to the point of treating her like a nosey neighbour. This is good for the time being. She has something to get out of her system (the Fog) - be prepared that she may not fully; but she definitely can improve. She is showing you this in short term changes. Much of this becomes habit driven I believe. You can help to break the habit for her.
Surfer.
Woke_Up
From my perspective, it should never have got to this point.
Agreed. But don't beat yourself up. what ever you did she was going to be in a different room. My W tried to literally kick me out of bed. "Either you go sleep elsewhere or I will". I told her "I paid for this bed (bought it from my first house - "good Old Thrifty Surfer" (he he), if you want to be in separate rooms jog on." She even tried ripping the duvet off me to take it - needless to say, Surfer is pretty good on the old tug of war!! Again, "jog on". I'm not proud of this interaction, you will have had similar, but nothing you can do will change them when they are in this (my W was having an EA also). She stayed in the loft room with a nice en-suite for 2.5 years living like "The Mad Aunt in the Attic". The room resembled that of a teenage girl, dirty clothes and makeup all over. Bed rarely changed. When she finally went the cleaners would not touch it. It took me half a day to clean the en-suite!!!
So, do not fret over this. You are where you are and you are protecting your D by being there. However, you need to set boundaries. She needs to know what you will not tolerate and you need to stand up for yourself. All in good time though. First avoid conflict let things settle and read. I don't recommend boundaries until you fully understand them. V is brilliant at this and will help if you ask. The Verbally Abusive Relationship book will help you here.
Surfer.
Woke_Up
However, a couple of occasions I accidentally woke her up and caused arguments, the latest time I exploded back, due to my emotions about EA (I'd been sitting awake a couple of hours). Then she was moving out (she had ordered another new double bed for herself to have in D's or spare room after first argument). But then I was guilted into moving out.
Been out since, apart from 2 nights when people stayed over and required spare bed.
Forget about the territory thing for now IMHO. It does not matter where you sleep. Ultimately yes, you need to set some boundaries and one will be you are moving back in. But for now, I suggest you steady you and the ship (the R) as much as possible.
Is she "fine" when people stay over. Even to you in front of them? Or is she fine with them and cold with you when alone or cold in front of them. TBH whichever answer, the result is the same. She is probably gaslighting you whilst spewing, history re-writing, spreading propaganda etc. I believe your wife, like mine, is (most likely) Verbally Abusing you. See Verbally Abusive Relationship book - suggest you look back at how much of it you underline (and do underline it, I know we are taught not to deface books etc; forget that just for now - you can even draw a picture of a c0ck and b@lls on the front page if it makes you laugh like an 11 year old). The sad part about this is verbal abuse like this is FOO stuff. She has grown up with it I imagine and that creates a very deep rooted habit - that is probably at her core (perhaps her Mum's too). She will find it almost impossible to change and it will worsen if she does not. You are going to have to become her pscho's observer for a while I am afraid. I know it's hard but you can and will do it for you and your D.
Final point. Your real goal has zero to do with her. It has to do with you. What would the old you be like if this 'alien' approached you for a relationship and you saw her for what she is (pre-kids?). you would walk. You are not walking, and that is very commendable. But you also should not crave her. Forget that. You must try to become the old you for you, D4 and SS16. No more eggshell walking or any of that.
Final final point. Has SS16 seen this before in a the previous R (with his Dad etc)?
There ends my comments. Couldn't sleep so I am going to get going with some work to make time for Xmas!!!!
Surfer.
Final final point. Has SS16 seen this before in a the previous R (with his Dad etc)?
I'll answer this one first, and go with yes. Not that SS16 talks much about it, but WW has. Her R with SS16 dad was bad. Think they were together 7 or 8 yrs, always argued, dad is lazy etc, was always smoking weed, slacking off work, getting fired. When SS was born he was outside the hospital having a spliff. WW married him after about 6 or 6 yrs, at the behest of her mother even though she didn't want to, filed for divorce about 6 months later. During that time she had a PA for about 5yrs. She was young at the time, had SS16 around her 18th birthday.
I guess a thing to note is that she described her PA as her best friend who made her laugh, but he was 'obsessed' with her and just trying to get into her knickers.
Her previous R before me was also full of arguments and 2 way abuse, some physical, but she had thought it was the love of her life. When I met her, approx 12 months after that R ended, she was still having issues relating to it. I know the person she was with, so know that he is a juvenile idiot, but that is by the by.
With her current EA when arguing, she has often denied it is an affair, described her friendship and someone who understands her. The sex talk and love talk just 'throwing him a bone'... however recently she told me she loved him. Shortly after she asked if we could forget that conversation, she was very confused. (I had started talking about ending our R, selling house, working out the practicalities).
Most recently when she brought up the EAP, she was describing him as childish, and not having achieved anything with his life. (What could I do but agree with her). There are occasional gaps in the fog.
My biggest concern is that this EA may end, but she sees this as the only problem (when talking and I said we had lots of problems to work out, she replied "we have one problem")...
I don't want to fall back into the old R. I don't want to fall back into the old me. I want to work on a better me. A more decisive me, proactive and positive. I want to lose my bad habits that I know I have.
I would love it if WW would come along on this journey, but I know she is resistant to IC or MC. She believes she knows herself best, she can work out other people quickly, and that most IC/MC out there is quackery to get money from you.
I believe if she comes along, it will either be from my changes creating ways to stop the old cycle, or she may find some self help along the way. Whatever happens, I know that *I* can change in a positive way for my life and my D & SS.
Quick update - a good night, no arguing or tension, good conversations, and just doing stuff around the house. W was affectionate. Could almost have been normality. She wants to keep the study a study and had said in text I could have 'her room'... didn't bite.
This evening she said we would be in MBR together, apart from the occasions when she is extra grumpy. I listened, didn't argue, went with it. Seems a step in the right direction, although cynical me wonders if this is just her retaining control.
That said, it didn't feel like it was a battle that needed to be fought yet. Observe, analyse, learn.
Friday thought: there's fine line between trying to be a better person, / doing 180's and enabling cake eating by the WS.
Woke_Up
This all looks positive. Zero expectations my friend.
there's fine line between trying to be a better person, / doing 180's and enabling cake eating by the WS.
There is but be careful with "cake eating". There's a fine line between not enabling boundary crossing (which need to be clearly defined for you and WS) and letting your 'ego' get in the way. There is no room for 'ego' in all this. It's a tread wary walk which we all fall foul of from time to time. After all, we are human!
Take care. I hope you are able to spend some quality time together over the festive period.
Surfer.
Keep on with your strong stance.
It's a great 180.
V
Woke_Up
Is she "fine" when people stay over. Even to you in front of them? Or is she fine with them and cold with you when alone or cold in front of them.
This depends. If it is FOO she feels comfortable expressing her emotions in front of (i.e. they know what she's like) then it can be be any.
If it is 'guests' it is usually fine & cold in private or just fine, depending on the mood, and whether any existing arguments are ongoing.
When I was saying fine in the most recent instances, I meant that we got on OK, and there was no drama with me being in the MBR - I think the issue comes when she doesn't feel it is her decision. So when guests stay it is 'her decision' to let me back in MBR. No drama. When I try to stay in there myself, it is not her decision but mine being forced on her, so massive rage/spew
TBH whichever answer, the result is the same. She is probably gaslighting you whilst spewing, history re-writing, spreading propaganda etc. I believe your wife, like mine, is (most likely) Verbally Abusing you. See Verbally Abusive Relationship book - suggest you look back at how much of it you underline (and do underline it, I know we are taught not to deface books etc; forget that just for now - you can even draw a picture of a c0ck and b@lls on the front page if it makes you laugh like an 11 year old). The sad part about this is verbal abuse like this is FOO stuff. She has grown up with it I imagine and that creates a very deep rooted habit - that is probably at her core (perhaps her Mum's too). She will find it almost impossible to change and it will worsen if she does not. You are going to have to become her pscho's observer for a while I am afraid. I know it's hard but you can and will do it for you and your D.
Ha Ha, made me chuckle. Yes, writing on books will take some getting used to again, but then I guess it is a similar concept to handling vinyl when I started learning to DJ in my ripe old mid thirties. You never handle vinyl except by the edges.. never put your fingers on the surface! Until you do.
I have the book, just trying to get some free time to read it in peace. I have a few to get through now, with DR, Love Must be Tough, Torn Asunder (WW has this, although I think she has read some and now discarded as it is behind her mirror in MBR). I am currently reading 'How to Break Free of the Drama Triangle and Victim Consciousness' by B & J Weinhold. I'll feed back on it, but it has given me some insight already; I am coming at this with zero experience in the realm of relationships/interactions/psychology analysis.
I believe you may be right with the points involved in verbally abusive relationship. I am sure I have some negative traits that will be described therein, also - I now have a few days off until I am back at work, so will hopefully get some time to read, scribble, learn. In amongst my GAL online course and the usual family stuff.
Final point. Your real goal has zero to do with her. It has to do with you. What would the old you be like if this 'alien' approached you for a relationship and you saw her for what she is (pre-kids?). you would walk. You are not walking, and that is very commendable. But you also should not crave her. Forget that. You must try to become the old you for you, D4 and SS16. No more eggshell walking or any of that.
Thank you. I get it on an intellectual level, that it is about me, and embarking on a journey to be a better person, which may or may not have the additional benefit of building a better R - but the emotional is difficult at times. I have argued and fought with WW more than anyone else in my history, but also love her more than anyone before.
Good point about eggshell walking, recently it had turned into a really depressing thought to be going home, knowing about the EA that was ongoing. (and even prior, if I am honest, as there was quite a bit of conflict recently). Now that I know that there is little I can do about it, I go home with the intention of being positive, being there for the kids, and not being turned into an emotional mess by circumstances beyond my control. I have control of myself and my actions. I'm getting that now.
There's a way to go yet, I still haven't really dealt with how I feel about her contacting EAP from the house, but I have managed to back-burner it while focusing on more important things (i.e. not being shoved into spare room, not leaving house, listening well, talking more). She doesn't do it overtly, so if I don't snoop then I can never know for sure.. but I 'know'.
Thanks for your insight/advice
I hope you have the best Christmas possible with the kids, and enjoy. I'll keep up with your sitch.
Lets raise a glass and say cheers - to each other and to the future, whatever it may bring.
Mate. Glass raised from Londinium.
It is about focus on you. The reason you are here is because of you both. However, IMHO, the reason you stay in this sitch is due to WW attempting to keep you there. On the hook as such.
Just get off the hook. Do your thing. Get back to what YOU are. For a while she has taken your personal power. Don't let her carry on doing that. You must find your own mojo again. THIS is the key.
Yes you can call it dropping the rope, GAL, detach etc. But it is more simple. Just be you. You have not been for a while.
Enjoy the time be the man chap!
Surfer.
I think you're right, I do think there is a lot of her reaching out just to make sure I am still there.
Tonight has been reasonably civil, although she was a bit touchy at times.
I erred, and snooped on her phone. Sipping acid indeed. Will be stronger next time. Yes, she is still communicating from the house (no surprise), yes she is occasionally slagging me off when she is in a bad mood - told him all bout the move to the MBR last weekend / calling me a rapist) - I shouldn't be surprised, then also defended me a bit when he then got all drunk and angry (a bit surprised).
Disappointed in my slip, had been doing a bit better on that front. However, didn't let it affect my manner in front of her. Stayed cool, calm and pleasant.
She tried to pull a control move - put the spare double bed from D's room into the spare room while I was out getting D, then started moaning that she didn't think she would be able to sleep tonight after I said was she OK with me coming into MBR tonight. It was meant to be tomorrow.
I then said not to worry, I would move bed back or use sofa bed in study. I moved bed back in the end, may as well be comfortable. I also said that if it was a problem long term I would have the study - she doesn't want this as she wants it as a study/library and has just been sorting it with new book cases, which we assembled yesterday. I can see this being a ruck before christmas, but I am adamant I want somewhere I can feel comfortable, particularly at Christmas.
I shouldn't second guess or mind read, but I suspect the thought of me being in there causes cognitive dissonance with her fantasy/web of lies she has spun with EAP.
I need to detach more, I'm still too easily available to her - I just struggle with GAL in current sitch. Long days, time with kids more important than anything else. I think I'll start by taking D out at weekends, on my own. Get some quality time in.
What are your thoughts on long term planning? I have been putting things off for long term that might cost money (seeing if we can get some more land from the farmer who has the field next to the house, looking at some sort of business that will keep W occupied during the day, that can be run from the land). We are in the country and have a couple of acres and always planned to do something with it. Do you think Long Term Planning is a good idea, let her see that there is still a future together, or something that should be dropped for now, so she sees what she will miss?
Anyway, you are right, I have not been myself for far too long. I shall find some time for me, stop wriggling like a worm on her fishing line. There's plenty for me to do. (including finding a new job as my contract is up at the end of Jan, which also gives me the excuse to be left alone. She understands this as she doesn't want me to be out of contract, and then suddenly finding times get hard.
All the best mate
Mate
No long term planning.
Stop overthinking.
Windsor Davies inside (have you watched it?) outside. Chill.
Get it?
Surfer.
Ah just seen. You are in the uk in the country.
I though I would expand on long term planning so you can understand where I cam coming from.
Long term planning is good for YOU (goals etc but take it steady is my view), but I think the long term planning you describe for her might not be so ideal. It can come across as chasing this sort of stuff. Personally, I think a shared goal is amazingly good but if you offer and she rejects it's not so ideal at all.
Also, mind reading I know, but 'run from the land' AKA "farming". Who's ambition is this? Who likes Countryfile more? You or W? If this is really something that you would like and she might not it could come across as controlling and deep down it might be. Also, her mind is not exactly crystal clear at the moment. Would you really want to set up a business for someone in this state. You have probably already established that if you were meeting her from the start, and she was in this state (no kids involved etc) you would run a mile. So why would you start a new farming business with her? Be careful with thoughts like this your "subconscious bias" can be your enemy. A final point, you might see W running a farm business, it's all Little House on the Prairie. She might see her making a business she can own, make hers, set her up as such so she can be financially independent and have an affair with OM - not really a shared goal! She has very different views and desires to you right now. Or she might just enjoy destroying the Little House on the Prarie to get a control kick.
I hope that explains. It's great being there to validate and listen right now. But really you need to close down the potential for conflict to create new good times. New happy feelings so these can replace the bad feelings she has when she looks at the R. This will take time and patience. It's all about getting rid pd of old habits and cresting new ones really and we all know that habits are hard to break. She will need to do this too and that is the hard thing. She doesn't even know she has bad habits yet. Even if told she might not accept them let alone work on them or be successful.
This is a very slow moving thing. Best shift into a very low gear. Fast long term plans won't help. Shared goals will, but let them come from her. I guess if she was to suggest a farm etc. You should be very "OK what would that look like?" Let her build the dream aspens describe if it sounds like your dream too then work towards it. But she would still need to have done all the work and be "fully baked" as such.
I hope this helps.
Surfer.
East Anglia but work in London
Easier said than done. Working on it, I'm a compulsive over thinker and internal narrator.
Windsor Davies inside (have you watched it?) outside. Chill.
I did watch it. That took me back a few years. It gets the point across though, had me chuckling thinking about it as I drove to the supermarket with D today.
Working on the chill. Trying to be a curious observer to these interactions.
Thanks
The overthinking and internal narration is a sign of attachment I am afraid. You wouldn't overthink about someone you have no attachment to. It's also hard to detach when living together. But it's something you keep working on. I think of it as being in that head space when you are able not to be taken on the rollercoaster as she spews.
Surfer.
Ah just seen. You are in the uk in the country.
I thought I would expand on long term planning so you can understand where I cam coming from.
That's cool, I get what you are saying about shared goals. To cut to the chase, most of these are her ideas, and it's not farming per se - it's ideas such as getting a few stables and maybe doing a bit of a small livery business, or kennels or such. Nothing firmed up yet.
I'm all for it, having a bit more land and doing something useful with it, and would happily support W doing this... BUT, it won't necessarily be cheap to invest in a business and that was my concern, more to lose if it all goes wrong... not a positive attitude, I know.
anyway, meant to post this yesterday, didn't get the peace and quiet to finish it. Have as good a Christmas Day as you can. Enjoy the time with the kids. That's what I'm focusing on today.
Peace
Well, at the moment, there is little spewing. I have been back in the MBR the last 2 nights without any problem. Let's see how this continues.
I'm still having trouble controlling my snooping. It is my weakness. She managed to go until 15:30 on Christmas day without communicating with OM. Then she did a bot on & off after that.
Interesting thing (from a detached standpoint) was applying the drama triangle to her interactions with OM. WW was a bit standoffish to start with, and he immediately moved into talking about his anxiety, until he had to say he would swallow his anxiety and need a drink (he drinks a lot) until he got the reaction he wanted from her. Classic rescuer to victim to victim/martyr, until she moved into rescuer. Almost tempted to let her know about the drama triangle and see if she can figure it out, but at this stage, I think I need to work on my self knowledge, awareness and understanding before I worry about WW.
Now as for today, they have been communicating from within the house. Rather than create a ruckus, when I brought her new phone downstairs at her request, there was a message from OM via Google hangouts on the lock screen.
So I took the opportunity to say to W that she had a message from OM and that did she remember me talking about the disrespect for me and the children by communicating from within the house, and did she understand what I meant by saying that it was disrespectful. She said she did and couldn't help if he messaged her.
I left it for now. I just wanted to reinforce the message about lack of respect rather than get into a battle about consequences at this stage.
It has been a reasonably calm day, been out to the park with WW & D, done a bit of GAL online training, and looking at some other GAL stuff for the new year. I used to do Krav Maga when I worked away from home and am looking to start doing it again in the New Year, once my op has fully healed.
Kept forcing myself to detach, think of her as 'mentally ill' when I was getting angry earlier (my own fault for looking at her phone), and even used Surfer's 'Windsor Davies' on myself - getting angry? 'oh dear, how sad, never mind' - and it helped.
Going to carry on with my GAL course for now, read a bit more about escaping the drama triangle, and see how tonight goes.
Well, at the moment, there is little spewing. I have been back in the MBR the last 2 nights without any problem. Let's see how this continues.
I have held back b/c I don't want to interfere with Surfer's help. I have not read the books he has referred. So, don't want to confuse by what I say in this post.
Looking from my viewpoint, you appear to be very accommodating, as your WW continues her A. It was left up to her, as to when you could return to the MBR, is that correct? And you returned, knowing the A continues? What is your plan about having sex, should she initiate?
IMHO, I don't think it is wise for the H to go back & forth to the MBR, or to do so based on the mood of his W. Perhaps I missed the details. To just state my own opinions in general (not necessarily about your situation), I believe the faithful S should have domain of the marital bedroom. If anyone leaves, it should be the betrayer. Based on how respect for the H affects the W's desire, I believe it is most important the H remain in the MBR (considering he is the faithful spouse). If his WW kicks him out of the MRB and he is concerned about things becoming volatile (as we have seen in previous times), I personally would not recommend that he ask his WW to let him know when he can return.
My reason here is b/c there should be a message in the action of the H staying in the marital bedroom. Actually, there are more than one message. It is all centered around respect for him as the head of the family, the man of the house, and the faithful one in the MR. His children connect the MBR with their parent's M. It has a negative impact to see the leader and protecter of the family kicked out of his MBR, b/c it suggests losing security in the home. It can cause doubt and worry about his strength and capabilities as head of the family.
Since some H's have already left the MBR by the time they find the DB board, and if he feels violence could occur if he goes back to the MBR, then I believe the message should be clear to his WW that it is done from his volition, and not b/c he was thrown out. The message to his WW should be that he chooses to not sleep with the woman who is betraying him. If he is already occupying another bedroom, and there is no way he feels he can safely go back to the MBR, then he needs to save as much respect as possible.
I have a big problem with men who reduce their position in the home, and go share a room with the kids or sleep in the basement. It is a visual lesson to the children, and one that may be applied whenever they get M.
So, getting back to when or how he should get back into the MBR. I am reminded of something MWD said, I may not know what to tell you to do.......but I can tell you what not to do. First of all, the H should not ask the betrayer if or when he may return to the MBR. And he especially should not ask more than once! If she has not ended her A, would it not be compromising his stand to begin sharing the bed of his betrayer? Secondly, he should not tell her to let him know when she is ready for him to return to the MBR. The H should not coddle a WW! And this gives her too much power over him. She has a wayward mindset, and the more she is coddled and the more the H accommodates her......the longer the disrespect will continue, and the more wayward behavior he will see.
Now as for today, they have been communicating from within the house. Rather than create a ruckus, when I brought her new phone downstairs at her request, there was a message from OM via Google hangouts on the lock screen.
You want to avoid conflict, so you accommodate her. From where I sit, it appears she gives the command and you follow orders. IMHO, that cancels out the message of respect.
So I took the opportunity to say to W that she had a message from OM and that did she remember me talking about the disrespect for me and the children by communicating from within the house, and did she understand what I meant by saying that it was disrespectful. She said she did and couldn't help if he messaged her.
She
does understand what you meant. The lack of understanding is not her problem! She knows you are not going to do anymore than act passive-aggressive.
I left it for now. I just wanted to reinforce the message about lack of respect rather than get into a battle about consequences at this stage.
See what I mean?^^^^^^^^^^^^^^. It is easier for you to find an excuse not to cause a ruckus or get into a battle. Enforcing consequences is not particularly pleasant, but it is needed if you intend to live with her respect. She gave you an immediate example of how she doesn't care if she disrespects you. So just talking to her about it is not effective. Why would you get into a battle about consequences??? Consequences are not intended for a discussion, and they certainly are not left up to her (if I am understanding you meant.
To follow up on Sandi, you have found a backbone on what behavior you won't accept, but you are now lacking on boundaries.
I don't want to punch you on your journey, but boundaries are HUGE. With SO, she would call and become livid and curse at me, and I didn't just say, "You can't talk to me that way", which is a good way to be passive-aggressive, but THEN I followed up with a boundary, and said, "If you curse at me, and become nasty, I will hang up the phone. If you call back and do it again, I won't answer for two hours."
So, I'm not saying, "You can't curse at me." I'm not saying, "You can't be b1tchy". I'm saying, "MY ACTION will be hanging up." That's the difference between control and boundary.
Bippy
And that's where I began with this thread - I can't think of a suitable consequence for this boundary.
And honestly, I'm not going to stop feeling disrespected if she goes out of the house to communicate, because let's face it, carrying on with the EA is very disrespectful.
And last time, by blocking the skype connection, people have said that I was in fact being controlling, as I was making it about her rather than me.
So what to do. She knows I'm not happy. Earlier when she tried to kiss me and I wasn't overly responsive she asked what the matter was and I said it was her continuing disrespect to me & the family. She lied about it but I told her not to bother lying as it just devalued her and me.
Anyway, she just asked if I wanted to ML and I said no. She asked why and I Said because she was disrespecting me and the kids. Again she said she wasn't, but then she left it.
I think the only boundary I can have is not acting like I am in a MR with her - it is difficult because we live together, have children, etc etc.
I get Sandi's points - this has been going on way before the EA, and I need to address it.
I have held back b/c I don't want to interfere with Surfer's help. I have not read the books he has referred. So, don't want to confuse by what I say in this post.
Looking from my viewpoint, you appear to be very accommodating, as your WW continues her A. It was left up to her, as to when you could return to the MBR, is that correct? And you returned, knowing the A continues? What is your plan about having sex, should she initiate?
Up to now it has been both. In your view should it be the WW or the H? Or actually should it be just forget ML while this continues? I struggle with the various concepts, some of which seem to be related to a non Affair / EA situation. I am trying to focus on making myself a better person, being a good dad for my kids,
IMHO, I don't think it is wise for the H to go back & forth to the MBR, or to do so based on the mood of his W. Perhaps I missed the details.
I had been out of the MBR for many, many months before I knew about the EA, as D was getting up in the night, and I found it less disturbing to be close to her than to have her get up and come to our room.
Now where I can see I did screw up more recently was after I had gone back in for a couple of weeks, then allowed myself to be guilted out after an argument - she was originally going to move out to the spare room, but guilted me into moving back out.
My reason here is b/c there should be a message in the action of the H staying in the marital bedroom. Actually, there are more than one message. It is all centered around respect for him as the head of the family, the man of the house, and the faithful one in the MR.
In truth, I think that respect was not there before hand.
If he is already occupying another bedroom, and there is no way he feels he can safely go back to the MBR, then he needs to save as much respect as possible.
I refused to go back to the spare room. My rationale was that while I was looking after D it was OK, but after she wanted to be in MBR with her mother (D changes her mind on a regular basis as to whether it is Mummy or Daddy she wants to be around), there was no reason to stay.
She has a wayward mindset, and the more she is coddled and the more the H accommodates her......the longer the disrespect will continue, and the more wayward behavior he will see.
I guess I have been very coddling. Still am. My stand was that I would take the study as my room. WW didn't want this, so I am back in MBR. I guess you are saying I shouldn't have worried about the MBR by this stage and just stuck to my guns - especially given the fact that I had only been in there a couple of months total since we bought this house last year.
You want to avoid conflict, so you accommodate her. From where I sit, it appears she gives the command and you follow orders. IMHO, that cancels out the message of respect.
That would be about summing it up. Now I think I understand a bit of how it got this way from the reading material Surfer has pointed me to, but that change will be a long slow journey to break habits that have been established many years, and in all honesty I am struggling to bring the various elements of DBing, breaking the drama triangle/verbal abuse cycle and setting firm boundaries and consequences without them conflicting with each other.
Ultimately, what consequences does she face? I leave the house. I still have to pay for everything, so apart from having to do more stuff when I'm not there, she can carry on unaffected. I stay in the house - I have not worked out suitable consequences for protecting my boundaries. If I sound confused and all over the place, that's because I am.
She does understand what you meant. The lack of understanding is not her problem! She knows you are not going to do anymore than act passive-aggressive.
See what I mean?^^^^^^^^^^^^^^. Consequences are not intended for a discussion, and they certainly are not left up to her (if I am understanding you meant.
I do, and thanks for your blunt words, I jut honestly don't have a clue about enforcing boundaries for my own protection and self respect in this situation.
You have a S16. Does he know where boundaries are drawn for his behavior/actions?
I'd say yes, the majority of them. Doesn't stop him pushing them all the time then getting the consequences.
I've just gone back and re-read your LBS thread, Sandi, and it looks like I've done the opposite of what I should have done. In effect I have managed to unseparate our sleeping arrangements - whereas I should have actually enforced the separateness and cut off the affection that I show. I now think that I should have stuck with my plan of taking the study as my space, my room - I wasn't in the MBR anyway, nothing of mine is in here, has never been in here, as since moving to this house, W pretty much claimed the available space and my things were put in the spare room - I didn't think it was an issue at the time, as it meant I wouldn't disturb her when I got up early for work.
Ashamed to admit I have been a total p##sy since we came to this house.
The reason I worry about separation is 2 fold:
1. The kids. I won't see them as much/be there for them.
2. Financial - it will be really difficult to afford somewhere decent where I can have D or S stay over, and DBing didn't recommend moving out. W has no income of her own other than through 'working' for my company ( I'm self employed) - she is also a shareholder of it. This made sense for tax reasons but makes it difficult to separate finances - I effectively provide all income to the household, she takes care of home and D while I am out at work. The same reason it makes it difficult for me not to enable her EA. she gets money for the shopping or housebtnings or whatever - that can easily go to cover her phone costs or even internet connection costs if she so desired.
She has always maintained she still loves me throughout this and has maintained affection/sex life etc. I can see I am quite often confusing trying to be a better man with trying to be a better H.
Meh, XW was super affectionate while she used my credit card; when I finally cut off her financing from my successful business, she was like "Oh wait, you aren't financing my life?"
Honestly, it was one of the biggest/stand-up moments in my life. And she started her PA shortly after, desperately seeking anyone to continue her false life of shopping and feeling good...
Just saying...
Please start a new thread