Previous ThreadThank you for your friendship: JR, CT, AP, Coly, LT, Sara, Jug, Mules and others whom I am forgetting.
I'm frustrated and a little puzzled that this web forum, in which anonymity and privacy is essential, does not offer a way to edit your own posts. I hope MWD and her staff rethink this issue more carefully.
I never thought I'd be where I am now.
Last night I (re-)watched "Saving Private Ryan," which -- despite a spattering of the usual Hollywood syrup in a few places -- put my current troubles in perspective, and highlighted the absurdity and arbitrariness of fate, as well as the importance of strength and honor. Actually, I think it's strength *from* honor, strength that is simply trying to adhere to your own principles while struggling with your emotional pain and impulses.
I don't know if I'm doing everything right. In fact I know I must not be. But I am trying to do the right thing, for my kids, for myself, and even for my W.
I'm glad saving private Ryan gave you good perspective. I'm extra selective with the movies myself as there are so many damn triggers. Hang in there and post what you are comfortable posting.
Gump -- yeah, we have it rough for sure, but not first-wave Omaha Beach rough. Perspective never hurts.
(Going all the way back to your original post ("Keep Wearing Wedding Band"), I've found myself more and more taking my ring off and putting it in my pocket. I always put it back on when I'm around her, and I think it's because it would still be a really big blow were she to take off hers (as she'd probably do if she saw me without mine), but I go long periods of time where I feel like I'm not really "married" anymore other than legally.)
I decided by trying to think of just me. If I were stranded on a deserted island right at this moment with nobody to see me or care, would I wear the ring.
I think the same way and wear mine. Ww doesn't for a few reasons...
...and I think it's because it would still be a really big blow were she to take off hers (as she'd probably do if she saw me without mine), but I go long periods of time where I feel like I'm not really "married" anymore other than legally.
JRuss,
While she's asleep you should superglue her ring to her finger and then take yours off. When she realizes that you've removed your ring, point and laugh while she tries to remove her ring.
Well, maybe that's not such a good idea, but it's fun to scheme.
doodler -- I'd have to sneak into her new bedroom, and the door's kind of creaky, but I may give it a shot.
Personally, I think it's cool that your W keeps her ring on. Maybe the prevailing advice on sex applies to this as well: as long as it helps her stay connected to you, keep doing it.
Yeah, me too, if I'm honest. Or, if not exactly "cool", then at least one thing that's contra-indicative of the overall trend toward more and more separation and loss of connection.
In the spirit of keeping it honest, when I take mine off, it's almost out of rebellion or as a way I can make myself feel less acted upon and more acting for/by myself. If that makes sense.
Sex seems long, long gone at this point, which will ultimately force my hand if it doesn't force hers first.
I left mine on up until I confirmed a physical affair...at which point I took it off out of anger. Now I can't find it! Talk about a bad omen...
7 months since Separation and 12+ since BD1 and I've still got mine on. It's been off for a few hours at times but I always feel guilty/empty when it is so it quickly finds its way back on. TBH when I take it off it's usually because I'm noticing an attractive girl, so less about W and more about temptation...
Mines been off since the second time my W went to see OM. Hers has been off about a month before that. I just can't bring myself to wear it and find myself thinking if we are able to R then I'll need to get another one. To me that ring symbolizes a M that's no longer there. A new one would symbolize something new that we are both committed to.
Doodler, excellent idea by the way! Ha!
JR, good to see you brother!
FG, I think your comments around strength from honor are spot on. Sticking to your principles in the face of something this rough can only help build you as a man and human being. I've no doubt that we will all come out much stronger and with a better understanding of ourselves when all is said and done. To JRs point, this is definitely not first wave at Omaha Beach tough, thank god for that! Easy to get lost in self pity, but a perspective smack like that helps to leap out of that hole!
Hang in there brother, you're fighting the good fight!
My task -- during this gift of time -- is to see my wife for who she is. No more, nor any less, than who she is. I think I am gaining some clarity. It's not easy.
Mantras:
LET IT GO.
LET IT GO.
LET IT GO.
LET IT GO.
LET IT GO.
LET IT GO.
LET IT GO.
I DESERVE BETTER.
I DESERVE BETTER.
I DESERVE BETTER.
I DESERVE BETTER.
I DESERVE BETTER.
I DESERVE BETTER.
I DESERVE BETTER.
THEY WILL BE OK.
THEY WILL BE OK.
THEY WILL BE OK.
THEY WILL BE OK.
THEY WILL BE OK.
THEY WILL BE OK.
THEY WILL BE OK.
Mine's been off for almost a year now. We've been divorced for about three months now. It was the oddest feeling taking it off - like a limb was missing. I was cleaning the other day and found it...didn't even try it on.
I stopped wearing mine after T-giving...mainly because H stopped. Since we each would now and again take the rings off for chores or weekend activities with the kids, I don't feel it's that big of a deal...except when I noticed he stopped wearing it daily. Even then, it won't really be a huge deal until we officially announce publicly to our family and friends. Right now, as juvenile as it sounds, on social media, we both have 'married' as our status. It's pathetic that this is our indication of where we are in our marital journey: married on social media.
It's a confusing and sad time.
So, your mantras are good. My daughter's obsession with Elsa and Frozen was prescient. That song!
You deserve better (W needs to finish being a work in progress). Your children will be ok. You will be ok.
Interesting replies here. I still wear mine. W still wears hers and she says it is her favorite ring and is still going to wear it after S or D. Who knows if she will or not or maybe it just moves to a different finger. I don't know what I'll do.
Interesting replies here. I still wear mine. W still wears hers and she says it is her favorite ring and is still going to wear it after S or D. Who knows if she will or not or maybe it just moves to a different finger. I don't know what I'll do.
Why wear it if a divorce happens?
^What Jeep said. Just why (for her in particular)?
Also, for those who don't wear your rings, where do you keep them? For some reason, my H has hidden his somewhere. Like I care to steal it?
I tookk my ring off when WH broke NC with OW, this was about 3 weeks before our baby was due. It's in the ashtray of the family van and there it has stayed. If we D I'll likely pawn it. If we reconcile then I will ask for a new ring as I feel our old M is dead and it also triggers me to know I was wearing it when he cheated on me.
I took mine off in January which was a few months after I found out about his affair. He continued to wear his until August. I did ask him if I could have his ring and he said he wanted to keep it because it reminded him of what used to be. Last I knew he was keeping it in his bathroom by his toiletries in a place where he could see it everyday. Not sure why that is?
I love my ring(s) it's beautiful, and I didn't want to take it off, but it didn't have the same meaning anymore.
I took mine off a week after I found out about the affair and found out she went out with the guy again. It no longer symbolized a marriage for me so it went away. The wife had taken hers off long before and when I noticed I talked to her about it and said things like oh you single now, etc. She put it back on for awhile and then took it off again when I found out about the affair.
I think the time for me to take off my ring may be coming up fairly soon. There's a part of me that says the right time to take it off has already passed. But there's another part -- especially when I look at my kids -- that says it's not time yet.
I thought I was doing OK, then early this morning I had the most awful dream, one where my W was openly in a PA. The pain of that condense in my gut just below the sternum, opened a blackhole, and it woke me up and I could not go back to sleep.
This is all horrific and, today, I cannot imagine a way out.
There is no right or wrong time to take your ring off, and no one else's situation is comparable to yours. You wear it or not based on what it represents for YOU and you only.
-PM
I think the time for me to take off my ring may be coming up fairly soon. There's a part of me that says the right time to take it off has already passed. But there's another part -- especially when I look at my kids -- that says it's not time yet.
I thought I was doing OK, then early this morning I had the most awful dream, one where my W was openly in a PA. The pain of that condense in my gut just below the sternum, opened a blackhole, and it woke me up and I could not go back to sleep.
This is all horrific and, today, I cannot imagine a way out.
ForGump - My old friend. I've not posted on your thread for a while. I've not known what to say.
I had to endure an in-house separation for about 3 months with my W openly flaunting her affair for a large part of it. I know the feeling you had well. Even though there is no obvious OM the daily pain of your W being around I am sure is difficult to cope with.
The only way "out" is forward. Not a helpful statement at all but you are a very thoughtful person so it will give you something to think about. The direction of "forward" isn't always obvious - it may well be a path that goes back through your own soul on a journey of rediscovery first. I don't know what happened in your situation a while ago that was a major shift for you - and you don't seem to want to talk about it so I won't pry. If you do though, you have good friends here who will listen.
Look after yourself, your children and your other priorities. You WILL get through this.
AP-- just ... thanks.
The gift of time ... will end at some point for me, and like it or not, prepared or not, I will have to go forward.
So I finally took mine off a month ago... after 7 months of sep. W this week started talking about the R and asked me when I took it off... not saying this was a trigger and could be pure coincidence, but interesting nonetheless.
I watched Gladiator and there are a plethora of one-liners that carry good philosophy. One of my favorites are, "Some days I do what I want to do, most days I do what I have to do." The more macho one I've seen posted here is, "Strength and honor."
Keep both in mind and you will find more often you are ok than spinning.
AP-- just ... thanks.
The gift of time ... will end at some point for me, and like it or not, prepared or not, I will have to go forward.
Gump,
I think about that gift of time thing and sometimes that abuse is just too much. You've endured plenty and I think it's better to take another route. As many say, you have to be unafraid to lose them. Hang in there man.
The gift of time I received wasn't due to my MLC/WW being indecisive. It had to do w/ a critical health issue of a family member. That issue has resolved, and so the gift of time has run out. Things are in flux, starting now.
During this time, I was very supportive of my MLC/WW and as a result we returned to a relatively warm rapport. But the signal is still clear to me that she's not interested in any type of reconciliation. It's not a surprise to me.
I have done a modest job of detaching, although I have had bad days. And I recognize that the worst is probably yet to come. Still, I feel that the gift of time has allowed me to see my MLC/WW a bit more objectively. My infatuation with my MLC/WW has settled a bit. If there had been no time, a divorce would have been more crushing, I think.
I don't know if I DB-ed all that well. I think I'm too knee deep to have any objectivity about it. I can say the voices and ideas in this forum has constantly challenged me, as well as comforted me at times. I'd like to think that I've become a firmer, steadier presence in my (broken) marriage. And I'm learning to weather my MLC/WW's emotional storms somewhat better.
It's hard to know exactly what the right thing to do is. Especially with people reporting that DB coaches suggest a sunnier, warmer approach; while forum vets advocate a more militaristic, austere protocol of detachment and cake-bashing. Maybe the wisest approach takes from both concepts. My tack for the next few days is to just listen and observe, to get a better sense of what direction my MLC/WW is taking. Then I will plot my own course.
ForGump - I had thought there might have been a health crisis in your family. I am glad to hear that it has passed.
Regarding your last bit - I'm not really sure what the "right" thing to do is. Our old friend CT1118 has done a lot of writing that I expect you have read as well. Fascinating stuff even if a bit philosophical even for me. There are a lot of contradictions out there on these forums and elsewhere. Inevitable because we are all individuals. For me I think that a lot of it is based on my interpretation of what my lawyer advised me 6 months go "Don't be an @ss". A simple 4 word set of instructions. I like to think that when I look in the mirror that I like the man that I see there and am proud of how I have acted. Yes, I'm very much one of the softer approach people even though I've not had the benefit of DB coaching. It's just who I am.
In Mathematics I was taught a methodology that perhaps might help you. You start in two directions. First you start from the answer you want and work backwards. Then you start with your original assumptions, those things that you KNOW and work forward. On a good day they meet in the middle. For me, the end point keeps shifting around multiple potential outcomes which if you've followed my thread you know that I am struggling with. The forward direction though has been largely consistent with a few mid-course adjustments.
It's certainly easier for me to do this without my W around and with no kids at home. I'm only accountable to myself.
Best of luck my friend. 2017 will be our year to get out of this mud.
AP--
Small phrases give me much to think about. Yes, I'd like to look in the mirror and feel proud of how I acted. Don't be an @ss is a good one. I have been an @ss on occasion, so I recognize it's an on-going struggle. Sometimes you do little dumb things, and realize you've backed yourself into a corner. And sometimes "the right thing" isn't so clear until in hindsight. I can say I've always had the best intentions, and never acted with any malice or petty feelings.
I think a big potential point of contention coming up will be the MBR issue. I don't want to get into the details of how it came to be, but the aforementioned health issue has put the MBR issue into flux, and we will have to come to a new agreement. I never felt very territorial about parts of the house, and I'm not a big nester, but I have come to feel a need to make a principled stand on the MBR (although I have continuing, niggling doubt that it's petty to care about it).
There is a loud, conflict-avoider voice in me that says just go w/ the flow, but I feel like I'm too accommodating on that front. I do want the MBR, and I don't want to be a refugee in my own house. But how to do it w/o sounding petty ... I'm not sure.
The gift of time I received wasn't due to my MLC/WW being indecisive. It had to do w/ a critical health issue of a family member. That issue has resolved, and so the gift of time has run out. Things are in flux, starting now.
During this time, I was very supportive of my MLC/WW and as a result we returned to a relatively warm rapport. But the signal is still clear to me that she's not interested in any type of reconciliation. It's not a surprise to me.
I have done a modest job of detaching, although I have had bad days. And I recognize that the worst is probably yet to come. Still, I feel that the gift of time has allowed me to see my MLC/WW a bit more objectively. My infatuation with my MLC/WW has settled a bit. If there had been no time, a divorce would have been more crushing, I think.
I don't know if I DB-ed all that well. I think I'm too knee deep to have any objectivity about it. I can say the voices and ideas in this forum has constantly challenged me, as well as comforted me at times. I'd like to think that I've become a firmer, steadier presence in my (broken) marriage. And I'm learning to weather my MLC/WW's emotional storms somewhat better.
It's hard to know exactly what the right thing to do is. Especially with people reporting that DB coaches suggest a sunnier, warmer approach; while forum vets advocate a more militaristic, austere protocol of detachment and cake-bashing. Maybe the wisest approach takes from both concepts. My tack for the next few days is to just listen and observe, to get a better sense of what direction my MLC/WW is taking. Then I will plot my own course.
Everything you have written here is completely normal, which I hope is comforting for you to hear. Keep working hard at it and life will unfold as God wills it.
-PM
FG -- I wish I had something better to say to you that would help more. I'm confident that you have what it takes to weather whatever ends up coming your way. I know how difficult in-house separation is, but you have strength and honor in spades. Your kids know it and will always know it, even if your W has gone off on a different path. Hang in there. Here's to 2017 being a better year for all of us.
PM/JR/All--
Thanks. It is encouraging to know that y'all are out there and share a (somewhat) common experience ....
I'm finding myself feeling lots of ups & downs in the last few days. I think outwardly I'm steady, but in my head I'm all over the place.
I'm focusing on seeing reality for what it is. Seeing my W for who she is, and seeing myself for who I am and who I want to become.
Sandi2's words ring very true right now, that no reconciliation happens through a live-in separation. So at the very least I have to be willing to go through a physical separation for there to be any chance of a reconciliation. And in my case a physical separation is a divorce, because my W is not willing to do a separation (and in my state, a separation is legally/essentially the same thing as a divorce). But also, I'm not hanging my hopes on my WW suddenly waking up from her quasi-MLC after the divorce. That's where the Stockdale paradox comes in: I have to see, and I do see, that her character and her outlook on life isn't something she's just going to snap out of. It's a big part of who she is, and has been for a very long time.
AP--
I can say I've always had the best intentions, and never acted with any malice or petty feelings.
FG, this speaks to the strength of your character. We all end up doing "little dumb things" because none of us are perfect, so it's not worth dwelling on. But knowing that there is truly no malice behind your actions, even in the face of such a horrible situation, is something to be proud of. End of the day, stand tall because you are a good man my friend.
I think a big potential point of contention coming up will be the MBR issue. I don't want to get into the details of how it came to be, but the aforementioned health issue has put the MBR issue into flux, and we will have to come to a new agreement. I never felt very territorial about parts of the house, and I'm not a big nester, but I have come to feel a need to make a principled stand on the MBR (although I have continuing, niggling doubt that it's petty to care about it).
There is a loud, conflict-avoider voice in me that says just go w/ the flow, but I feel like I'm too accommodating on that front. I do want the MBR, and I don't want to be a refugee in my own house. But how to do it w/o sounding petty ... I'm not sure.
I know that conflict-avoider voice very well. Seems to be a trait a lot of us share here. To your statement before about being well intentioned, just ask yourself if making a stand on the MBR is the right thing to do. If it is then absolutely stand for it and push back on her. If it's important to you, then it definitely is not petty. There's bound to be another option to accommodate the change in health situation (which I'm sorry to hear about brother).
I'm sorry you're going through a rough spot right now FG. The ups and downs definitely suck. How're you doing w/ yourself right now? Sleeping ok? Exercising? As you know from my experience, I tend to get those ups and downs when I'm lacking on either of those fronts. anything you could be doing for yourself right now to help alleviate some of the ups and downs?
The in-house S thing IS awful. It's not something I'd wish on anyone. The sheer uncertainty and amount of emotion that comes from being martially S, but constantly physically in contact with our WWs wears on us. It feels like being stuck in a hole w/ no way to get yourself out of it. I completely understand what you're going through right now.
That said, you are one of the stronger folks on here my friend. You always have a rational, well thought out approach to things and you're a great man. I think you already know that these ups and downs won't last and are only temporary. Be strong brother and know that we're here for you.
I'm finding myself feeling lots of ups & downs in the last few days. I think outwardly I'm steady, but in my head I'm all over the place.
I'm focusing on seeing reality for what it is. Seeing my W for who she is, and seeing myself for who I am and who I want to become.
Sandi2's words ring very true right now, that no reconciliation happens through a live-in separation. So at the very least I have to be willing to go through a physical separation for there to be any chance of a reconciliation. And in my case a physical separation is a divorce, because my W is not willing to do a separation (and in my state, a separation is legally/essentially the same thing as a divorce). But also, I'm not hanging my hopes on my WW suddenly waking up from her quasi-MLC after the divorce. That's where the Stockdale paradox comes in: I have to see, and I do see, that her character and her outlook on life isn't something she's just going to snap out of. It's a big part of who she is, and has been for a very long time.
(((ForGump)))
Wow, I'm feeling the same things these days. Thank you for sharing.
Hello,
my WW had PA EA with another man 2.5 years ago. She has not only taken hers off but wears other rings on other fingers of that hand. Totally screwed the kids up since the ring was always SO important to her. I have never taken it off unless construction made it unsafe since the 2.5 years ago. At first I did it for her to know I had truly forgiven her, then I did it for me because it felt weird off and made me think of why it was off more than healing and why I wanted to have it on, then I did it to remind me that no matter what someone else does, I can be who I want to be. I am committed, honor my promise to her and need to stay true to my beliefs until I'm not married. We still haven't told the kids that she filed for divorce, they know they are so much smarter than she thinks, and they see her manifesto every day. I had taken it off to work on a construction job and went to pick up my oldest from school. She saw that t was off and not being surprised that I had it off asked me. I told her why and then I put it on. I then said, maybe I should take mine off. It just doesn't have any meaning anymore. My child told me. You have always taught us to be who we wanted to be no matter what. That isn't you is it dad. Then I wore it for them, to give them a constant of truth since that is what it had meant in our family. Now that she is figuring out how to leave, goes out to party looking sexy, etc in front of everyone, I wear it because I need to be the best me. I don't believe in this divorce because it is just happening for stupid reasons. I don't need to advertise that I am a free agent yet. I probably will wear it after the divorce for a bit for the same reason. Not sure.
Actually, Gordie ...
It's probably true that there is no path to R through in-house-S ...
But in my case I believe there is no path to R, period.
I just have trouble accepting it.
But I'm getting there.
Here's the thing, there is no ONE true path. Every single path is different, turns and twists unique to the terrain that is personal. We are struggling through stuff that makes going through actual war-combat almost seem preferable. People understand that soldiers get PTSD from war but only the one's who've suffered infidelity get the PTSD of betrayal. Some wayward spouses have a light bulb moment when suddenly faced with divorce, others will simply double down to "prove" that their "love" is real.
I tried the harsh/hard divorce steps and it got me a faceful of regression on WH's side. However when I controlled my reactivity and presented a calm, listening presence (while biting the hell out of my tongue) I noticed forward movement from WH.
You know that WH suddenly dropped the D bomb on me yesterday, this was following a 2 week stonewall from him after I spewed some really heinous stuff. While I am utterly entitled to my pain and anger it does not serve my overall goal to let that emotion roll out in a rage filled way. Now I am back to square one. If you put a boundary in place, in a loving and compassionate way, then no matter her reaction you will know you did the right thing.
DBing is about returning to our true, authentic self. If that person is a compassionate and soft man then BE that FG. Take what works and is true, toss out the rest.
Gump,
You asked what I respect in a man after I admitted I have none for myt husband: strength, honor, and integrity (specifically boundaries).
I've been reading a lot of inner peace material and several assert the concept of letting the pain be. Feel the pain, let it go through you, then grow and emerge from it. Don't fight it. Feel it, let it run its course. I knowse that may not sound comforting right now, especially with your time clock running out. But it's a way to let go and I've found it helpful. Otherwise, I'm afraid I would destroy my physical health with the worry. You'll prevail once you let go. At least that's what I'm thinking for myself.
Thanks Sara & 100383. Reminds me of an exchange w/ an old friend, who went through a divorce many years ago. He didn't lean on me at all during his divorce, so, now that I'm having all this trouble, I told him I felt bad that I wasn't there for him. He said it's OK because ultimately it's all so personal you have to bear to load by yourself.
It still hurts and I'm still confounded, but it's not half as bad as the first month after the bomb drop.
.
.
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I said things are in flux, and sho nuff ... it is. It's too late for me to write that up now, but I will post soon.
W is filing.
First, she wrote that she loves me, just not the way she should (i.e., romantically/sexually); and she's sorry to divorce me.
She wants to D now, but keep living together for up to a year in separate bedrooms while she jump starts her career, and then separate residences at that point, with spousal support starting at that point. (The spousal support amount and duration she suggested seems reasonable). Her rationale is that a) we get along well; b) this helps mitigate pain on the kids; and c) it gives her some time to become economically independent.
I presume this means she'll see other people while we live in the same house. I know she will be discreet but I don't think I can handle it. This issue alone makes me think I need to reject this proposal.
Can you offer any reason why I should accept this proposal, or some variant of it? The only reason I might do it is to get another year of stability for my two relatively young kids. They will likely be minimally impacted in the short-term by their two parents co-habitating w/o a romantic/sexual relationship; but is there a long-term impact?
Even if it minimally impacts my kids, I don't know that I can handle it.
All of you who ever posted in my thread ... I need your input now!
FG, first off, I'm sorry you're having to go through this my friend. You don't deserve this and this part is especially tough. Stay strong and keep on the path you've been on because you've done great things.
I don't think you can make that decision taking into account your kids. This seems like an FG decision. It's very selfish of your W to ask for this in my opinion, as she reaps all the rewards and suffers none of the pain. It puts you in a place to look like the bad guy for not suffering for the sake of your kids. Not a fair position for her to ask you to consider.
What are ya'lls thoughts around how the kids time will be split? Are those fair in your opinion? If so, it may be best to just go your separate ways and continue to be a rock for your kids to find comfort and stability with. You may find w/ physical separation you're better equipped to be even stronger for the kids than you were while being stuck in the in house S stuff.
I'm hurting for you right now my friend. I do know that whatever decision you make, you will make the best of the situation. Make sure you take yourself into account when making it though. You don't need to fall on the sword for the sake of the kids. The kids know that they have a rock for a Dad and you can make it work regardless of what your WW does.
Here for you brother. Strength and Honor as our friend mules says. Let us know how we can help support you through this.
It's hard to know exactly what the right thing to do is. Especially with people reporting that DB coaches suggest a sunnier, warmer approach; while forum vets advocate a more militaristic, austere protocol of detachment and cake-bashing. Maybe the wisest approach takes from both concepts. My tack for the next few days is to just listen and observe, to get a better sense of what direction my MLC/WW is taking. Then I will plot my own course.
Hello ForGump,
I'm so sorry for the situation you are in.
I see what you mean about the differences in suggestions from DB Coaches and many of the vets here. The common thread is that everyone has your best interest at heart. Speaking with one of our DB Coaches will help you clarify the best coarse of action for your specific situation.
Knowing what to do and what not to do at this point is crucial. Feel free to give me a call at 303-444-7004 to discuss how we can best help you determine what to do next.
Cristy
Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004
I presume this means she'll see other people while we live in the same house. I know she will be discreet but I don't think I can handle it. This issue alone makes me think I need to reject this proposal.
It appears that this is your primary objection and is just an assumption on your part. Make it a condition for both parties.
Why else would she want a divorce? We're already doing an in-house separation, and she's financially dependent on me. So, the only difference between what we have now and an "in-house divorce" arrangement would be to see other people.
I know I found it very awkward and confusing while W was still co-parenting in the house even though she was sleeping elsewhere. When she finally moved out was when I was really able to better detach - for your own health and sanity try to find someway to force the physical separation. It will really help you let go and will allow you both to experience what D will really like. In some states they require a year of physical separation before Divorce for that very reason.
If she wants to be divorced, be divorced. This halfway stuff doesn't fly for anyone involved, including the kids.
-PM
Honestly I am torn about this. The big question is what is your boundary? If she confirms that you guys can date other people then would you be able to handle that? In my case that would be an absolute no. I have tried picturing this and my stomach twists up and I feel ill. So if this is your response to the visualization of your wife being other men while living under your roof then for your own sanity, nix it. Remember to control your reactivity and stay calm and compassionate.
I see a lot of benefit for her but nothing but pain for you. That is just not reasonable.
FG, I am so sorry to hear that your W is filing for D, however I think her suggestion to remain together while she gets her career off the ground is unrealistic and selfish. I agree with the other posters, you need to get some distance now for your own sanity. She needs to feel the consequences of her decisions and know that you are not a doormat enabling her fantasy lifestyle.
(((FG))
Hi FG,
Just reading your thread - and I am so sorry for your situation. I don't know what i would do in your situation - earlier i would have said - suck it up for the children, give them one more year of "normalcy". Now - i am almost certain i would say no.
Good luck to you.
Honestly I am torn about this.
Why torn? You've given me the downside, but what might be the upside? Is there any?
FG -- I am so sorry to read this this AM. I know it must be gutting. My W is going to have to file in the next month or so if she wants to stay on course for her summer move-out, and I'm dreading it, even though I've known for some time it is going to happen.
Honestly, I don't see a lot of upside in her proposal. But if there is one, it would be the possible benefit to your children you mention. However, I think you need to honestly ask yourself if you could effectively parent while your W was dating other people and living in your house while she does so. I know my ability to parent, to be present for them, to be a calm, stable force for them, would be compromised, and I wouldn't be able to give them the one benefit this arrangement might otherwise provide, because I'd be so preoccupied and stressed. And just flat out pissed at my W's selfishness. Could you do it?
All of the other aspects of this line up in favor of saying no. As others have said, this is cake eating to the max. I don't know if you have any hope or desire for R at this point, but I can't see where agreeing to this and then doing it would do anything but accelerate and confirm her feelings that you're just a good friend-type figure in her life. Whereas moving her out and letting her get a taste of what your removal really feels like, could (though certainly might not) move things in the other direction. At some point, you need to think of yourself in this, too. Like me, you're not getting any younger. While I'm sure she'd have to agree that dating would go both ways, I just don't see you out there tearing it up and actively dating with your wife still at home. But at some point, that will be a part of your life again. This just pushes that further and further down the road. You'd be in limbo, but the sort of limbo that doesn't have any hope for improvement until her predetermined time period expires. If it's really all over (and her filing does suggest that), why not use the year to heal and recover and get co-parenting down with an eye toward getting back out there sometime in 2018? If you agree to this, you'll spend a year in hell, then probably need quite a bit of additional time when she finally does move out. It's ok to think about your life and needs, too.
This [censored]. I feel so sad that you have to face it, but I know you'll do it like you've always done things: with strength and honor.
Told her can't do it. Actually wrote her that yesterday, immediately after posting my question. I just knew I couldn't be in the same house while she was seeing other people. Good to have your input/confirmations though.
Things are in flux. I'll be posting more, I'm sure.
You made the right decision asserting your boundaries. That proposal was cake eating on her part, if my novice brain understands it correctly. And despite the tough love, and perhaps anger from her, your boundaries that you set are very respectable. Had you agreed to it, your children would suffer through the tension and your misery.
Lastly, it puts you squarely in the friend zone. It's all (love/marriage) or nothing, right? I think so.
((Hugs))
If its going to happen its going to happen,I think your best bet is find a way and try and get her out soon as,or it will just linger and not help you at all'
Yep, I don't want to be a castrated schmuck.
That's my new mantra.
I expect her to give me a new proposal within a day or two.
Yep, I don't want to be a castrated schmuck.
That's my new mantra.
I expect her to give me a new proposal within a day or two.
Congratulations on making the right decision in your gut.
Why wait for her to make another proposal?
Do you have a lawyer so you can counter with your own proposal?
However, I think you need to honestly ask yourself if you could effectively parent while your W was dating other people and living in your house while she does so. I know my ability to parent, to be present for them, to be a calm, stable force for them, would be compromised, and I wouldn't be able to give them the one benefit this arrangement might otherwise provide, because I'd be so preoccupied and stressed. And just flat out pissed at my W's selfishness. Could you do it?
This is how I'm feeling too. The overwhelming stress of my sitch has leaked on to my kids. I try my best to be present for them. But sometimes my emotions take over and I snap at them or I'm too strict. My W and I just had a conversation this morning about how my S8 is getting sloppy with his homework. I reminded her that she has barely been home over the past 6 weeks and our kids are no longer getting the attention of 2 full-time parents.
I think it's one thing to persevere through a suspected A even if it becomes not-so-secret after a while (my sitch), but full-out acceptance of dating after a divorce while she's still living at home? How can you heal or get closure in that situation?
Gordie does have a good point FG. What do you want the situation to look like if she does file?
Maybe putting your own proposal in front of her would get you to the place you want to be. At the very least, it puts you in the driver's seat for this thing.
I do think you made the right decision in not accepting the last proposal though. Again, sorry you're having to go through this.
Great point, guys.
I have been formulating my plan in my head but so far I have taken the "I'm not going to help you but I won't stand in the way" stance. So I have let her bring her plan to me.
She has trouble w/ life skills ... with pulling together a plan ... so at this point I don't want to hand her a plan. I want her to struggle with it.
But I will keep giving your suggestion some thought....
Completely understood FG. Just be sure you get to a point you're comfortable with. A little more difficult if she's setting the starting line but still manageable.
No doubt you can handle this bud.
Well done for standing your ground FG. I suspect she was playing on your need to do the right thing for your kids. At the end of the day whatever happens she is the one who is letting them down wanting a D so there is nothing else you can do to minimise the destruction.
I can imagine this has left her in a state of flux. After all you have shattered her fantasy!
I have been formulating my plan in my head but so far I have taken the "I'm not going to help you but I won't stand in the way" stance.
This has been my stance too. But once she went to the L, someone here hit me with a 2x4 and said I needed to detach emotionally, get my own L and treat it as a business deal, so that's what I'm doing. She gave you a proposal. In my mind, it's not enabling the D to give her a counter proposal, but you've got to do what you think is right.
Sorry gump. I got that bs proposal before knowing about the A. There has been no willingness to work on anything and the wayward behavior continued so I had no choice but to file. She ended up telling me that she was gonna file the day before she was served.
ForGump - I'm trying to figure out here what it is that you are "actually" wanting. Do you know yourself?
From what I've read over the last while you've pretty much accepted that a divorce is going to happen one way or the other. I'm not saying to go out and start cheering but does passively obstructing it actually get you anything other than perhaps a bit of petty revenge? (Sorry for being blunt there).
Anyway - give it some honest thought which I know you will do and I'd also like to suggest you check this piece of advice which bttrfly was so very kind to post on my own thread.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2723760#Post2723760Keep strong and true to yourself my friend.
AP -- I welcome bluntness and critical thinking. So thanks for your questioning.
My saying that I accept the divorce is ... my attempt to take on a Stockdale-like, unflinching, clear-eyed look at my situation. In theory there is a possibility that my MLC/WW would wake up. What are the odds? 1-in-1,000.
You see my lack of proactive participation in the divorce as passive obstruction. That probably applied more so earlier in my struggle (summer of 2016), when I postponed looking at the DIY divorce paperwork my wife gave me. But actually, back then, I simply could not emotionally bring myself to do it. It was not a willful obstruction.
At this point, I can emotionally handle doing all the paperwork. And if my wife said, let's meet tomorrow night and let's fill out forms A, B and C together, I would comply. But so far she's only asked if I'd live in the same house for up to a year after the divorce, to which I said no.
I could give her a "counter offer" for a plan to divorce. I know more-or-less what I'd ask for, if I were to do so. But I don't want to right now. Why? For one, I don't want to divorce! I want to work on our (deep) problems. Two, since her fantasized EAs in the fall of 2015 and spring of 2016, she has not crossed any of my boundaries. Three, we are living quite amicably as parents, and I'm not in a hurry to break up the family for my two young kids' sake. And four, my wife is very impulsive and has poor life-planning skills, and I've not made it any better because I helped her with everything (and still do too much, probably). I want her to think through what her divorce is going to look like, and struggle to come up with a plan herself. I don't want to hand her the divorce she wants on a platter, all worked out.
And she is figuring it out, at least the divorce part, step by step. (I think her life afterward will be a wreck). And as she asks me for participation in specific steps of the divorce (i.e., let's fill out form XYZ), I intend to comply.
I spell all this out, AP, not to be argumentative, but because it's good for my own thinking to spell it all out; and to invite everyone's feedback on it. Maybe I'm taking the wrong tack on this. I not confident. Just trying to be true.
Things will remain in flux, I'm pretty sure, so y'all will keep hearing from me.
ForGump - I liked reading this. You have always been a very introspective person I felt. Feel free to explore your thoughts and be sure that you are making the "right" decision before you make it.
AP -- I welcome bluntness and critical thinking. So thanks for your questioning.
My saying that I accept the divorce is ... my attempt to take on a Stockdale-like, unflinching, clear-eyed look at my situation. In theory there is a possibility that my MLC/WW would wake up. What are the odds? 1-in-1,000.
You see my lack of proactive participation in the divorce as passive obstruction. That probably applied more so earlier in my struggle (summer of 2016), when I postponed looking at the DIY divorce paperwork my wife gave me. But actually, back then, I simply could not emotionally bring myself to do it. It was not a willful obstruction.
At this point, I can emotionally handle doing all the paperwork. And if my wife said, let's meet tomorrow night and let's fill out forms A, B and C together, I would comply. But so far she's only asked if I'd live in the same house for up to a year after the divorce, to which I said no.
I could give her a "counter offer" for a plan to divorce. I know more-or-less what I'd ask for, if I were to do so. But I don't want to right now. Why? For one, I don't want to divorce! I want to work on our (deep) problems. Two, since her fantasized EAs in the fall of 2015 and spring of 2016, she has not crossed any of my boundaries. Three, we are living quite amicably as parents, and I'm not in a hurry to break up the family for my two young kids' sake. And four, my wife is very impulsive and has poor life-planning skills, and I've not made it any better because I helped her with everything (and still do too much, probably). I want her to think through what her divorce is going to look like, and struggle to come up with a plan herself. I don't want to hand her the divorce she wants on a platter, all worked out.
And she is figuring it out, at least the divorce part, step by step. (I think her life afterward will be a wreck). And as she asks me for participation in specific steps of the divorce (i.e., let's fill out form XYZ), I intend to comply.
I spell all this out, AP, not to be argumentative, but because it's good for my own thinking to spell it all out; and to invite everyone's feedback on it. Maybe I'm taking the wrong tack on this. I not confident. Just trying to be true.
Things will remain in flux, I'm pretty sure, so y'all will keep hearing from me.
Okay, I better understand why a counter proposal may not be the right path for you. Best wishes in this new phase. I'm negotiating our S now and it is exhausting.
I hit submit too quickly. My W is also inexperienced in the financial department and one of her wishes is financial independence. I learned the hard way that she does not want me to be her teacher! So my new mantra has been--let her lawyer be the bad guy. Previously, when she made proposals that made no sense I would try to explain why and this would get messy. Now I just listen, knowing that if it makes no sense that her lawyer will point this out to her--I don't need to be the bearer of that bad news.
Gordie, I'm continually tempted to help her, even the divorce process itself. I want to point out which forms to fill out, what numbers to put where, etc. (We are doing a DIY divorce, at least for now). But I stop myself. I need to let her struggle with these things.
But I need to point out something that is somewhat unique about my situation. There is a dimension to my marriage that I don't see in other marriages described here. My wife had ravenously hungry sexual appetite when we were dating, but once we got married our sex life took a nose dive and never really recovered. It always felt like it was on life support. Even as my W was telling me I was the best husband she knows (among all her friends' husbands), even as she was very warm and affectionate in every other way, she was never very interested in me sexually, even though I found her very attractive and we both had (and still do) have strong sex drives. And this is why she says she wants to divorce me. She's always rejected talking about this issue or working on it.
The only way all this makes sense to me is that it's a facet of borderline personality disorder, which I won't get into here ... but, in short, my marriage is built on a shaky foundation, if there is a foundation at all.
ForGump - I might have a similar song to sing here. My own relationship had the same sort of thing.
I recognized fairly early on that my W used sex as a power and control thing and "got off" on being able to manipulate me by it. I recall seeing the look of triumph in her eyes after a particularly good session. Shortly after we were engaged our sex life also took a nose-dive. There were bumps up from time to time when she wanted something such as the house I am living in or our second child but otherwise it was "the duty". Since I loved her so very much I accepted this. Does my W actually have a strong sex drive? I don't know. Does your's? I know even less. Or is it in fact another drive that has an outlet via sex.
Analysis of this might be interesting but is it actually meaningful? Sorry - going through a bit of a rough patch at the moment myself.
FG, you're not alone my friend. Ours followed a similar path (ravenous while dating, far, far less so when M) and once we had our D it fell off a cliff. Pre-BD it had actually been a long time since we'd had sex.
I also wonder if my M was built on the right things and if there ever was a foundation at all. I want to believe there was, but current state would point to that likely being wrong. Bleh
Does yours [have a strong sex drive]?.... Or is it in fact another drive that has an outlet via sex.
AP/LT--
I think having some understanding of my W's personality/character is important, because it's an important part of the bigger picture that is the marriage itself. I recognize that there is the danger of being too much of an armchair psychiatrist or focusing on and blaming just my W while missing the big picture.
What drives her sex drive? It has taken me a long time to understand -- and even now I don't fully understand it -- that her sexuality is driven by a different set of needs and impulses than mine. Not entirely different, but there are different components. For her, being desired and feeling desirable is an extremely important part of her drive. We all have that, but for her it's extreme to an unhealthy degree. This relates to my belief that she suffers from some form of borderline personality disorder. Someone with BPD has such a poor/empty sense of self, that being desired by another person (not just sexually but in all social connections) is immensely pleasurable and satisfying.
I'm not saying this means that's the only way my wife can enjoy sex. To the contrary, I suspect she does have her "type" she'd have better romantic and sexual chemistry with. And that person is not me. But her BPD made her fall in love with me (and me with her), despite the fact that I'm not really her "type." In other words, if she didn't suffer from BPD, I believe she probably would not have fallen in love with me. And possibly me not with her, because she was extremely alluring and easy to get along with while we were dating; but once we were married she was extremely difficult to get along with, prone to sharp and sudden anger, and displaying much anxiety about minor things in life (especially uncertainties, however trivial they might be), and some OCD-like behavior.
So, to come back to AP's original question, does she have a strong sex drive? I believe she does, in the plain sense. She does want it often, and she does enjoy it. But I may be the wrong type. Or maybe I am her type, but her need to be intensely desired just cannot be met by someone whom she already possesses.
Oh sex drive, what a fickle thing you are. Our sec life fell off the cliff when I became pregnant the first time. A big problem I had was WH only initiated physical affection when he wanted sex. I tried to hint (I should have given concrete examples instead of waiting on WH to mind read) and felt very resentful after a while.
I did the majority of housework and child care (on top of working) and frankly was p*ssed that WH didn't put in his share. I told him over and over again how I needed to feel more support on the homefront and I would have more energy for sex. He said he felt like I was giving him a list of chores.
Do I think you're your wife's "type?" You must be if there was ever good sex between you. I think you have to continue being the hot, sexy guy she met and she will have to work on her own demons. I started going to the gym recently (huge 180 for me) just to build energy and confidence. I want a firm, hot body for my own sake. (I am only 5'1 and 110 lbs so this isn't for weight loss just for building an athletic body)
Sara, thanks for the vote of confidence. Yes, when we were dating I was completely convinced that I was her type. My mind was blown, totally blown, by how hot our chemistry felt. I thought, How could this be? How could it be SOOOOOO GOOD? Then we got married.
I have an athletic body type, I work out regularly, do outdoor sports, and am at a good weight. I have a good, steady full time job, and I am good with my kids and I totally pull my weight in housework. My W has been saying for a while now that I am the best husband she knows among all the husbands she knows, and recently she wrote me to say she loves me and will always loves me and cannot imagine a life without me yet she does not find me sexually attractive so she must divorce me.
I'm sure you've read every book on sexual attraction. Why do you think she lost the sexual attraction? Have you guys ever seen a sex therapist? Your situation breaks my heart.
I'm sure you've read every book on sexual attraction.
Actually, not really ...
Why do you think she lost the sexual attraction?
Because her initial sexual attraction to me was fueled by borderline personality disorder, not genuine sexual interest.
Have you guys ever seen a sex therapist?
Saw one once (a pretty famous one too), but W felt the whole thing was hokey and would not go back.
Not a good day today. Feeling down & low. When is this going to be over.
Nothing unusual happened. Except for W being super cold, acting like a sullen teenager, like I'm keeping her from her happiness.
ForGump,
I feel for you. How does her coldness affect you?
How can you detach and let go?
When W spews, she rages about sex and that she needs sex therapy to recover from our M...and yet she still desires sex with me...having no exposure to sexy therapy, I asked the question to see if it helped your situation
Hugs Gump. I hear you, When is this going to be over? It's torture.
I feel sick being here, as you do. I hate the every day where nothing really happens. It just underscores the sad limbo.
You're such an intelligent, articulate, and insightful person. She's a fool to not find that attractive.
Gump, so sorry you are feeling down. You have been through a big emotional roller coaster lately.
First even if it seems it has been forever for you, your situation just started a little bit over a year... so STOP trying to fix it/solve it in a matter of days or weeks. It takes time, months or even years. That's why you might have to start doing a few things, I am going to express ideas and give you some 2X4, so please don't be mad at me, that's what my friends who went through that ordeal did to me (with a few glasses of wine and lots of hugs).
Please DETACH, you are still letting her mood setting the tune for your mood, don't spiral down with her, so treat her as an acquaintance, be polite, nice but just start living your life on your own with your kids, she is in full REPLAY of MLC, so just plain selfish and nothing of what she will say or does actually make sense, she is just trying to figure out what she wants and one way is to push your buttons and getting into arguments with you so YOU will make the decision for her, and de facto the blame of the divorce/separation will be yours , not hers so she can tell later on to the kids, Dad was the one who wanted it.
Just ignore her, no comments, talk to her as if you were to your neighbor.
Don't leave your house under any conditions, if she wants out she has to be the one to leave, specially if you want to have the custody or the shared custody of your children.
If she is spending too much money, you need to have a talk with her and let her know that her budget will be this amount, and start separating some accounts.
Communicate with messages (kids schedule, family activities, questions in regard of the kids) to her, again keep it professional, no emotions, it will also give you proof of what you told her (no more You said, and other twisted comments,) and her answers (words and timeline), in case of a divorce (I hope not).
When she starts some spew or an argument, simply leave the room, and state your opinion in a very calm manner (Sorry you are feeling that way, but I don't agree with you, so let's agree that we disagree, I am not yelling at you so please keep your tone of voice polite...)
Set up boundaries (no OM while in this house, if you want one you have to move out I cannot and won't control you, if I catch you with one, I will kick you out and don't expect me to take the blame for it, ... remember children are learning how to behave by watching us so if you want them to learn to respect and be respected it starts at home).
GAL, it means living your life without her, keep her informed (if you are taking the kids somewhere but don't try to push her to be part of their life, you are up for a big disappointment), keep your expectations to NONE.
Make an appointment with an experienced lawyer (ask for references) so you can learn about your rights in regard of your situation and her behavior, what you can do and what you should do. Don't tell her about that, it's just for you to be informed. Don't think your situation is "special".
Make an appointment with an IC specialized with infidelity, just for yourself.
Make an appointment with your GP or a psychiatrist so you can explore to take something to help you (just a few months), you need to have those obsessing thoughts to go down (I resisted a few months, I was a fool, taking something helped tremendously), you are dealing with PTSD, even if you are a big/tough man you cannot deal with it yourself, you need help.
Take care of yourself, make changes not for her, learn how to be without her, your children needs a "sane" dad, you are the only responsible parent they have left right now.
FG -- I know as well as anyone that it's hard not to let W's moods impact yours, but try not to let it. I still sometimes come back to that imagery you, me and lt used to kick around -- like our W's are some sort of exotic form of wildlife, and we're the guys with the Nature shows observing them and their ridiculousness. Because that's what it is. I mean, really. You're going to pout and cover the home in dark clouds because it's just so hard and terrible being married to a guy who provides, is great with your kids, is thoughtful, intelligent, kind, patient, keeps himself in shape, and has bent over backward to improve and save the marriage? It'd be preposterous if there weren't feelings and lives involved, but there are. So this exercise only goes so far, but sometimes it helped me in that worst/most painful moment when my thoughts were otherwise kicking my ass.
Make an appointment with your GP or a psychiatrist so you can explore to take something to help you (just a few months), you need to have those obsessing thoughts to go down (I resisted a few months, I was a fool, taking something helped tremendously), you are dealing with PTSD, even if you are a big/tough man you cannot deal with it yourself, you need help.
Not everyone will agree with this suggestion, but I do. 3 months after the first BD I started noticing that I was so obsessed with what was going on that couldn't concentrate on my work. I was fluctuating between panic and depression. Since then I've been on low doses of 2 medications to help with the problem. Understand that the medication doesn't make the problem go away, nor does it make you not care anymore. But it does take the edge off so that you can be productive. The most important thing to remember is to ensure that you seek a qualified Psych MD. And be patient, some meds take a couple weeks to start working.
All-- thank you so much for your input in my thread. Every voice helps and gives me strength.
Yesterday was a bad day emotionally, and I'm sure I'll have more, but generally I think I'm doing OK.
I don't have any emotional hangups about getting all possible help. Right after BD, I did visit my primary care physician and did get some meds, some of which helped tremendously to get through the shell shock.
I did try snooping and some backhanded stuff but I learned quickly that all it does is backfire and eat away at my own sense of integrity. I know enough and I just don't want to live like that, wondering about what my W is doing. I cancelled my FB account.
My W does not spew really. She represses her anger towards me and generally behaves like a sullen teenager, often refusing to greet me and make eye contact.
I believe I have my boundaries figured out. If/when there is an OM, I will file immediately. With respect to finances, she has not been exploitive at all. And I believe we are roughly on the same page when it comes to division of property, but I understand things can deteriorate.
Her view is, I think, that she just married the wrong guy, and she's frustrated at herself that she doesn't have the financial means to divorce me easily and move on. She's also frustrated to a degree that I'm not helping her get the divorce. If it was anything else in our life, I would have, by now, researched the options, drawn up a plan, present her with options, help her choose, and execute that plan for her. I am not going to do that with the divorce. I can't.
But ... how long do I hold that position. MLC can last years. Especially if the roots of her MLC are entwined with very deep-seated psychological issues that started back in childhood. How many years can I survive in a loveless marriage?
She's also frustrated to a degree that I'm not helping her get the divorce. If it was anything else in our life, I would have, by now, researched the options, drawn up a plan, present her with options, help her choose, and execute that plan for her. I am not going to do that with the divorce. I can't.
My W resents me for this too...crazy!
Re how long can you survive in a loveless marriage? I think only you can answer that question. If you are attached and continuing to ride on their roller coaster, then I think the answer is not very long because the physical and emotional toll is too great. If you are detached and off their roller coaster and doing your own thing, then I think there are a lot of examples on these boards of being able to stand for years...
One thing that has been helping me recently with WH's sullenness and reframing is understanding that this is his journey and the best thing I can do is step out of his path and walk my own. When he is sullen and moody with me (which is a constant right now) I realize he is doing some internal battle. The fact is, if he was dead certain he would have filed by now. But he is not certain, there is doubt and I am doing my hardest not to add to his list of "cons." I stay upbeat and confident, gym running has helped me immensely with this respect.
My main goal for now is to diminish my reactivity. So when he comes home all sullen and grumbly I smile t him, greet him and then dive into playing with the kids. I am refusing to let him see my struggle right now, strangely enough my struggle has started to diminish. This week I have drive to his job (twice) to invite him for lunch and stopped myself as soon as I pick up the phone. This is an accomplishment for me. I pat myself on the back for resisting my desperate impulses to "prove" to my WH that I am worthy fighting for. The fact is, we love these broken people in spite of their mistakes, poor judgement and flaws. We just have to resist the urge to jump on the sword in an effort to save our marriages. Make small goals daily. For example, mine have been to resist sending useless texts to WH. Also to appear at my absolute best when WH and I cross paths each day.
All-- thank you so much for your input in my thread. Every voice helps and gives me strength.
Yesterday was a bad day emotionally, and I'm sure I'll have more, but generally I think I'm doing OK.
I don't have any emotional hangups about getting all possible help. Right after BD, I did visit my primary care physician and did get some meds, some of which helped tremendously to get through the shell shock.
I did try snooping and some backhanded stuff but I learned quickly that all it does is backfire and eat away at my own sense of integrity. I know enough and I just don't want to live like that, wondering about what my W is doing. I cancelled my FB account.
My W does not spew really. She represses her anger towards me and generally behaves like a sullen teenager, often refusing to greet me and make eye contact.
I believe I have my boundaries figured out. If/when there is an OM, I will file immediately. With respect to finances, she has not been exploitive at all. And I believe we are roughly on the same page when it comes to division of property, but I understand things can deteriorate.
Her view is, I think, that she just married the wrong guy, and she's frustrated at herself that she doesn't have the financial means to divorce me easily and move on. She's also frustrated to a degree that I'm not helping her get the divorce. If it was anything else in our life, I would have, by now, researched the options, drawn up a plan, present her with options, help her choose, and execute that plan for her. I am not going to do that with the divorce. I can't.
But ... how long do I hold that position. MLC can last years. Especially if the roots of her MLC are entwined with very deep-seated psychological issues that started back in childhood. How many years can I survive in a loveless marriage?
My W has backed off the spew and now tries to repress everything as well FG. You've seen that in my thread. At some point though, I find myself wondering if they explode. I can't imagine it's possible to repress all of that forever. What that explosion looks like I don't know. But I do find myself trying to prepare for it.
You've also seen that my W is pissed I didn't just step aside and let her take my D, out house, our finances, etc. I agree with you about not aiding them in the process. I find my W relies upon my plan execution skills as well and she seems to have trouble executing her own. It's not fun to watch them stumble through this but we can't help them.
That said, I'm struggling with the same thing you are and that's time. It's finite and the uncertainty of if/when W will become rational again is weighing on me. At some point we are left with a decision ourselves. We are not powerless to be steered by their rudder. We have full control over this and can extricate ourselves whenever we deem appropriate. Toss in the kids, however and that equation becomes a lot more complex. For me, I know that if I exercise my option to end this, I'm in for a hell of a fight to get 50/50 with my D. Scares the sh&it out of me. But still I don't think we can allow ourselves to be infinitely subject to the brutal behavior and coldness of our Ws. Right now I don't have an answer for either of us but I can share that I know your pain and angst on this. It's not fun and you, JR, and I are fighting a similar fight. Again, there's comfort in knowing you are not in this alone.
Hang in there brother!
Good thoughts, Sara.
Also to appear at my absolute best when WH and I cross paths each day.
I think I'm failing at this. We see each other first when we wake up, and I've got bed hair, crumbled jammies, crusty eyeballs, bad breath ....
At some point we are left with a decision ourselves.
I feel like each day she and I remain separated, a small part of my heart dies.
That accumulates. Makes me wonder if one day I will wake up and have no feelings left for her.
Had my first DB coaching session yesterday. She (the coach) definitely advised a softer, warmer approach than the anti-cake-eating, tough love approach we hear in the forum.
In fact, she said doing an in-house-separation is better than being physically separated. Quite a different message then the old, "there is no path to reconciliation through in-house separation." Her philosophy is that a solid friendship is the foundation of a good marriage.
I think I talked to much and we ran way over, but she was gracious about it. I did ask for and get advice about issues that are very specific to my situation, stuff that I haven't been comfortable airing here, so that was good. At this point, I feel I have nothing left to lose. So I'm going to go w/ 100% w/ the advice given by my coach, and see what works....
That's what's been happening with me, FG. The feelings eventually start to follow the reality of the sitch. She has no romantic feelings for me despite my best efforts to remake myself, she makes it clear over and over, time after time, and, eventually, there was enough of that accumulated that even I started to see it for what it is (i.e., nothing worth having).
I was at first pretty much in abject, white-hot agony most of my waking moments. As the inhome sitch has progressed and become "the norm", and I've seen the behavior and heard what's been said, etc., I've slowly moved to where I can't even see any longer how or why I'd be with this woman absent a whole host of changes she in no way thinks she needs to make, other than because it *might* be better for the children. Given that the two of us can't really manage to go more than 2-3 weeks, tops, without a fight one or both kids witness or overhear, I got to the point where even the stay together/stay unhappy model makes no real sense. You guys seem more consistently cordial, though, so you may have reason to wrestle more fitfully with the "do I keep doing this, even though it makes me miserable" question.
JR, to me, this is an object lesson in the concept/aphorism that love is made, not found. If my W treated me w/ warmth and affection, I think the feelings would regenerate and regrow quickly. There is a foundation of attraction, at least from me to her. (I believe there is some in the other direction as well, which is exactly why she has to fight it by being deliberately cold toward me).
The question is whether she wants to water the grass she's standing on ....
p.s The DB coach did bring up the concept of resentment. Resentment piling up over the years. That was a provocative idea for me. I have been thinking about it.
I'm not thinking about just, "what did I do wrong" that caused her resentment. Not just looking to pin blame on me (nor her). I'm thinking about what part of our dynamic -- where/when were the friction points, where did our desires & wishes differ -- that would cause her to become resentful of our marriage, and have it subconsciously pile up. I think much of that was accentuated by her impulsive, passionate personality.
But it makes think about how I can diminish those friction points ... as a part of my nothing-to-lose DB ...
Hey FG, glad the DB coaching went well. I got very similar advice when I had my coaching too.
I'm also trying to build my relationship/ friendship with my H before tackling the reconciling to the marriage issue. I said on my current thread that I understand that this wouldn't be everyone's cup of tea as the feeling on here is don't accept anything less than them crawling and begging to come back. IDK, that's a nice to have as far as I'm concerned so I'm no going to hold my breath, in the meantime my H has agreed to go 'out' with me once a week and has started to text me everyday if he can't see me. He hasn't come back home yet but we are in a much better place than we were a couple of months ago.
Interestingly when I re-read DR the advice in there is definitely not as harsh as some of the advice on here but what we've got to remember is that it's not one size fits all!
You sound excited with the advice from the DB coaches FG and your right, what have you or any of us got to lose!
((FG))
In fact, she said doing an in-house-separation is better than being physically separated. Quite a different message then the old, "there is no path to reconciliation through in-house separation." Her philosophy is that a solid friendship is the foundation of a good marriage.
So now what do you think about in house separation vs physical separation? And remaining friends vs. I want to be your husband, not your friend?
At some point we are left with a decision ourselves.
I feel like each day she and I remain separated, a small part of my heart dies.
That accumulates. Makes me wonder if one day I will wake up and have no feelings left for her.
I'm not sure if it does... TBH I thought I had accepted either outcome, was ready to move on and had very little feelings left for W. Now that she's turning around, it's amazing how quickly those feelings rush back. It's a big part of our lives - you can take some solitude in knowing that she's likely experiencing the same feelings, just not able to talk to you about it.
Had my first DB coaching session yesterday. She (the coach) definitely advised a softer, warmer approach than the anti-cake-eating, tough love approach we hear in the forum.
Yes, that's what my coach said, too. That's what I'm doing, as well.
Her philosophy is that a solid friendship is the foundation of a good marriage.
Again, that's what mine said. I agree, kindness and friendship (like being a gracious host to a houseguest) is the approach that my coach recommended. It makes sense, even if it runs counter to the concept of "you don't want to be in the friend zone".[/quote]
I'm glad you got the professional advice from the coach for your specific situation. If you do the next session, I believe you'll do an exercise in putting yourself in your W's shoes; an exercise in empathy. It may also help in how you interact with your wife. Though I was already aware of my own culpabilities in the demise of my marriage, the exercises helped me to further take perspective. It's hard, but the coaching has been helpful, I think.