Greetings,
I have read the SSM and am planning on reading the divorce busting book soon. I have read over much of this form and it has been helpful. My situation has some unique features to it and I think now is a good time to tell my story here. I thank anyone who takes the time to give me any advice.
Things start in January of this year. W and I have always been very close. We do everything together and have 2 kids. Married 18 years with no more issues than occasional fights. Sex almost every day. In January I started to feel like sex time was a little different but ignored it. Wife tells me she has “rape” fantasys and wants me to take her more forcefully. This is not really my nature but I agreed to try it carefully with her. Tried 4 or 5 times over the next few months. She seemed to like it. I was ok with it but don’t prefer it. Wife and I practiced coitus interruptus for birth control and it worked for us for many years. Foolishly, I decided to count her cycle and then leave it in right before her period to try and enhance sexy time with a surprise. She got pregnant so I either counted wrong or she ovulated very late. She surprised me with how upset she was. We did not want a 3rd kid but I assured her that I would take care of it and it would be ok. She insisted on abortion and I agreed to help her get this done. This was her 7th abortion (6 other abortions before I met her) So I accidentally tapped into a very dark place for her.
Abortion was 7 months ago in April without complication and she healed quickly. Sex stopped completely and I was patient with this. She initiated sex a few times over the next few months but then screamed at me after and said that she hated me. She stopped wearing our wedding ring. I got anxious and I definitely made a few mistakes during this time. I did not beg though and tried to be patient. I did pretty good at backing off and giving space but I would try to “convince” her things were ok occasionally which always backfired badly as she said I was trying to control her. Daytime mostly continues normally and she is surprisingly nice to me. I tried to initiate sex a few more times and she consented but told me she hated me after and wished I was dead. I left her alone for a few more months and then asked her to wear our wedding ring again. I asked her to at least try to be together again. She did not take this well and after argument I took mine off as well (trying to show acceptance) I promise no attempt at sex for a month. During this time I realize that she is flirting online with a B list celebrity that she has had a crush on since she was teenager. I realized that the flirting actually started before she got pregnant and we were having problems. Lucky for me, he is not responding to her but he just chats back about the regular topics. I realize she is somewhat delusional about where this is going. She has a pretty popular twitter feed for her art and she keeps making him art and posting it there. Her replies indicate that she thinks their relationship is closer than it apparently is.
I realize over the next few months that she had picture of me in her head that is way worse than I actually am. She has “forgotten” anything good I have ever done and “remembers” the few bad things in much worse detail that is true. She blames me for things that I did not do at all. I have mostly been going with this. I had apologized for things I didn’t do and taken more responsibility than I should have. She has told me she hates me, has no trust and that I am a murderer. She tells me that I hurt her on purpose(I did not) I have mostly let this go. The most bizare thing is that most days she is very nice and you would not know that anything was wrong. It took months to piece together the picture in her head. The kids have not noticed a thing (which I am very grateful for)
Where do I go from here? Effectively, I am unable to talk about it at all with her. If I even mention counciling she will fly into a rage. I miss my wife and want to make amends. I’m pretty sure she would leave me if the opportunity presented itself. I don’t want to lose her or my children. I have tried very hard to be honest and impartial in telling my story. I would be happy to provide more details if someone thinks that it would help. Should I try to demonstrate pulling away from her? I have been working on acceptance within myself but I don’t really want to just sit back and lose her.
Thank you for reading this far. I look forward to your replies.
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH. Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
So sorry to hear about your problems in the M. When using that method of birth control, the W has to put all her trust in her H to not get her pregnant. Learning you thought it was "safe" and went ahead and done your thing without consulting with her first........could cause a multitude of negative emotions in her. What are the ages of you and your W?
From reading your post it sounds as if your W has some serious issues. Has she ever had therapy?
How did the two of you meet? How old was she when you M? Did something bad happen to her when she was growing up? Did you know about the six abortions before you M her?
IMHO, your biggest problem is not a SSM. I mean, it may seem to you it is, but you were having sex almost every day for 18 years........until a few months ago, right? Your W could have some emotional issues that will need professional therapy. She could also be in an emotional affair, even if that guy did not return the same affectional texts.
Things may be a little slower during the holidays, but if you'll stick with us, I think you will get support. Keep posting.
I'm still figuring my own situation out, but its easier to look at other peoples with a little more clarity than my own.
Some things that Ive done for myself is to go to counseling alone since my husband wont and is insistent upon divorce. In the mean time, he sees me bettering myself and I am. It helps me, gives me an outlet and makes me less emotional with him.
It doesnt sound like divorce has been brought up yet, but obviously things aren't good. Would she be open to individual counseling just in regards to the abortion, not necessarily relationship counseling? That alone can be a very hard thing to deal with and it sounds like shes struggling with it, among other things.
The fact that she is looking outside of your relationship for attention means she likely already has a foot out the door. The thing I've struggled with most is the fact that you can't win her back with logic, promising things, etc. It isnt something you can talk through. You have to do the things in the DR/DB books for you. Its counter intuitive and can be a struggle. So for me it clicked when someone said, "youre going to lose him anyway, whats the harm in trying?" Basically if youre afraid of detaching and sitting back because youre worried shell take off if youre not in action, well.. shes going to go anyway. So at least this way you have a fighting chance. It is taking action, just not in the way you would think.
Thank you for the reply. I will do my best to answer your questions impartially. I appreciate any replies that I receive here.
I am 42, W is 43
I know I was wrong to risk her like that. But, it's to late to take it back. I have done my best to own my failure and let her know it is not something that I would do again.
W has never had therapy and has a very low opinion of therapy in general. It's likely off the table because she hates the idea of it.
We met at a Rave when we were 23 and 24. We were together for a year before we married. She had a string of bad boyfriends and got pregnant repeatedly while growing up. Her parents were busy/unavailable for her and offered little/no help aside from getting her abortions. I knew about her trouble with boyfriends and the abortions before I married her. she seemed stable and over it.
Sex stopped in April of this year after the abortion. Before that it was rare for us to go more than 2 or 3 days without sex.
She is almost definitely having an emotional affair. She is imagining that he is connecting with her when he is not. she takes facebook items that he posts as containing secret messages for her(they don't). she will write him a paragraph and he will reply with one or two sentences. this has been going on for a little over a year.
I'm not terribly afraid of the OM. I realize that he is a symptom of the problem. I actually admire him for not taking the bait and replying to her sexual innuendo or requests for more personal info.
Still, I don't like what all of this means for our relationship. I'm pretty sure she is willing to run off but just doesn't have the opportunity.
Foolishly, I decided to count her cycle and then leave it in right before her period to try and enhance sexy time with a surprise. She got pregnant so I either counted wrong or she ovulated very late. She surprised me with how upset she was.
I agree with Sandi. She put her trust in you and you betrayed her.
We did not want a 3rd kid but I assured her that I would take care of it and it would be ok.
Thats easy for you to say. Were you going to sacrifice your body carrying for 9 months? Were you going to undergo the risks involved with pregnancy and delivery?
She tells me that I hurt her on purpose(I did not)
You did not? It sounds like you made a selfish choice and it backfired. It was an accident that she got pregnant, but your decision was NOT an accident.
I know this post is not helpful in how to move forward. But I think at first, you need to really look at your side of the street to understand what you did in your marriage.
I agree with you. I didn't mean to misrepresent myself. I know that I did wrong. I have owned up to my huge mistake to my wife. I owned it unconditionally. When I am able to talk to her I never try to make excuses for what I did.
Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka
that I totally agree with.
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.
Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
Lex, you have several elements in your story that resonate with me. The things you're seeing -- I realize they are surprising for you, but if you look back into your history, are they really new? Or is there a pattern of such behavior over the ~20 years you've known her. Is she quick to anger? Do her emotions run very hot and very cold suddenly? Does she have trouble opening up about her inner feelings? Does she have low self-esteem? Did you have good communication all those years? Was she a very willing partner for daily sex for 18 years? Does she gravitate towards strong infatuations, as with the celebrity?
Please think about it. I'd like to hear whether this is all new, or maybe this has been a part of her personality all along.
She had a string of bad boyfriends and got pregnant repeatedly while growing up. Her parents were busy/unavailable for her and offered little/no help aside from getting her abortions. I knew about her trouble with boyfriends and the abortions before I married her. she seemed stable and over it.
Lex23,
Just my opinion...
It sounds as if your wife has suffered through a lot of trauma, and she's probably been a victim of rape, maybe even childhood sexual abuse. PTSD can result from trauma, as well as other serious disorders. With trauma, memories are often repressed, so the victim actually becomes more susceptible to further abuse because they have difficulty discerning between safe and unsafe people and behaviors (i.e. poor boundaries).
For a variety of reasons, the repressed memories are often triggered in middle age and that's when the house of cards begins to fall apart. The victim is usually not fully aware just how bad things have become.
From personal experience with my ex-wife, she didn't "trust" therapists at all. It really wasn't just a trust issue, she was afraid that all of the deep and dark stuff inside would be exposed, and in her mind, that would just lead to more intolerable pain. Begging the victim to go to therapy won't help much and it may even push her away.
Lex, you have several elements in your story that resonate with me. The things you're seeing -- I realize they are surprising for you, but if you look back into your history, are they really new? Or is there a pattern of such behavior over the ~20 years you've known her. Is she quick to anger? Do her emotions run very hot and very cold suddenly? Does she have trouble opening up about her inner feelings? Does she have low self-esteem? Did you have good communication all those years? Was she a very willing partner for daily sex for 18 years? Does she gravitate towards strong infatuations, as with the celebrity?
Please think about it. I'd like to hear whether this is all new, or maybe this has been a part of her personality all along.
When I think back, some of this is new and some not. communication has been difficult for her but we have usually figured it out. she has been quick to anger sometimes and the response can be disproportionate. Once early on in the marriage she took a swing at me for putting the wrong shirts in the dryer. The surprise rages were fairly rare though so I just let them go. I have always paid for everything and I think that her self esteem may have suffered some. she is an accomplished artist but has made very little money over the years.
she was a very willing sex partner. she initiated as often as I did and was playful/experimental in bed.
I knew that she had a teenage crush on the celebrity but I never thought much of it. she has been faithful to me and up to this point I was not aware of any flirting. she is even kind of quiet and introverted in mixed crowds. I was very shocked to discover that she had actually made contact and was flirting with said celebrity.
Lex, everybody comes here and reads each others' posts and say, "Hey, that's just like my wife/husband!" We're all astounded by how spouses seem to follow a script. But the specifics of your situation are so similar to mine, it's eerie. I am not going to point out those specifics because of privacy concerns but if I did, you would be puzzled. How could this be?
Anyhow, here are some things to consider. Your W's childhood, including all those boyfriends and abortions, and her (seemingly) unfulfilling relationship with her parents, could have been deeply emotionally damaging to her, and could be strongly affecting her even now as an adult. I think your wife may suffer from "borderline personality disorder" (BPD). There are many websites and books on this (I prefer books because the quality of information on the Internet isn't very good.) Don't be misled by the unfortunate name of this condition. And I'm not saying your wife neatly fits into this. First, BPD is difficult to diagnose and must be done by a specialist. Second, as with many psychological conditions, a person doesn't neatly fit into a category; people are complicated. Whatever you do, don't bring up BPD with your wife. It is counter-productive to tell her directly about it (so say the professionals.)
I recommend that you talk to a mental health professional who is familiar with BPD, and get some input. They'll see spouses of people suffering from BPD. Even if your wive does not have BPD, it's really helpful to see a counselor about your failing marriage. If your wife does suffer from BPD, I believe it would explain a lot about her initial interest in rape fantasies and the later accusation of rape against you, as well as her delusion about having a relationship with the celebrity.
Man, I wish I could give you a phone call and talk.
p.s. Is there any parallel between her behavior within your marriage and her mother's (or father's) behavior?
Lex, everybody comes here and reads each others' posts and say, "Hey, that's just like my wife/husband!" We're all astounded by how spouses seem to follow a script. But the specifics of your situation are so similar to mine, it's eerie. I am not going to point out those specifics because of privacy concerns but if I did, you would be puzzled. How could this be?
Anyhow, here are some things to consider. Your W's childhood, including all those boyfriends and abortions, and her (seemingly) unfulfilling relationship with her parents, could have been deeply emotionally damaging to her, and could be strongly affecting her even now as an adult. I think your wife may suffer from "borderline personality disorder" (BPD). There are many websites and books on this (I prefer books because the quality of information on the Internet isn't very good.) Don't be misled by the unfortunate name of this condition. And I'm not saying your wife neatly fits into this. First, BPD is difficult to diagnose and must be done by a specialist. Second, as with many psychological conditions, a person doesn't neatly fit into a category; people are complicated. Whatever you do, don't bring up BPD with your wife. It is counter-productive to tell her directly about it (so say the professionals.)
Man, I wish I could give you a phone call and talk.
p.s. Is there any parallel between her behavior within your marriage and her mother's (or father's) behavior?
Her mom is pretty much a full blown sociopath and probable BPD sufferer. W is estranged from her mom. They talk occasionally on the phone but that is it as far as their relationship goes. I'm not sure about the wife being BPD. we had a pretty good run up to this point. She snapped on me now and again but it was fairly rare. she never fantasized about rape or celebrities until this year as far as I know. She is not wrong to be mad at me for getting her pregnant. I should have done better. It's just been 7 months now and we are slowly chilling in stead of making up. I noticed your signature said "in house separation" I fear we are getting close to this. We still sleep in the same bed currently but we're drifting further and further. currently I have to face away from her at the wall and then she will put her arm around me. If I face her even without touching her she will sleep in a fetal position facing me with a pillow in between us.
Not surprised to hear about your W's Mom.
Did her Mom go through any big changes in her life when she was in her early 40's?
Whatever the cause and whoever's fault it is, what's going on is not healthy, not normal. Not just the marriage itself, but each of you is not in a healthy place. So I believe you will benefit from a therapist. I hope you can find a good one. It takes a bit of effort to find a therapist that feels right. Whatever your wife is going through -- whether it might be diagnosed as BPD or not -- you are likely playing a role. Talking to a professional about all of that will help you figure out how you can be a healthier person.
Not surprised to hear about your W's Mom.
Did her Mom go through any big changes in her life when she was in her early 40's?
Whatever the cause and whoever's fault it is, what's going on is not healthy, not normal. Not just the marriage itself, but each of you is not in a healthy place. So I believe you will benefit from a therapist. I hope you can find a good one. It takes a bit of effort to find a therapist that feels right. Whatever your wife is going through -- whether it might be diagnosed as BPD or not -- you are likely playing a role. Talking to a professional about all of that will help you figure out how you can be a healthier person.
I appreciate your advice and I admit that you are probably correct. I also agree that I am probably playing a role. Nothing happens in a vaccum, it takes two. However, this option is off the table for me. The reaction to suggesting therapy would be rejected and make my situation worse. I'm looking for ideas that I can do on my own.
No, I'm talking about therapy for you.
No, I'm talking about therapy for you.
Will consider this but I can't afford it right now.
If you have health insurance, there's a fair chance it's covered to some extent. FYI.
I have to ask some more questions, and in no way do I mean this judgemental. Why was she not on birth control pills when she was a teenager and getting pregnant that many times? Did she ever say why abortion was chosen each time?
Did she ever say if she had wanted any of the babies that were aborted? Do you know how long she carried them? Did her mother 'force' her into the abortions?
What is her relationship like with her father?
Why was she not on the pill (or some type of effective BC method) after having two children with you?
Sorry for so many questions.
Hey Lex, let us hear from you.
I have to ask some more questions, and in no way do I mean this judgemental. Why was she not on birth control pills when she was a teenager and getting pregnant that many times? Did she ever say why abortion was chosen each time?
Did she ever say if she had wanted any of the babies that were aborted? Do you know how long she carried them? Did her mother 'force' her into the abortions?
What is her relationship like with her father?
Why was she not on the pill (or some type of effective BC method) after having two children with you?
Sorry for so many questions.
sorry for the slow reply. we traveled for thanksgiving and it made it difficult to have private computer time.
I don't know why she didn't use birth control as a teenager. From what she has told me over the years I can speculate though. Her mom was in denial/unapproachable. She apparently didn't feel that she could ask for help. she did not want any of the babies. they got the abortions ASAP, she did not carry them for long. she once told me that after she came out of the clinic her mom was giving her a hard time and said something like, "Now don't you feel awful!" and she replied that she felt great and was glad that it was gone. Unfortunately that is all that I know about the past abortions so I cannot offer any more.
Her father was not the brightest guy and was pretty beaten down by her mother by the time that he died. He was prone to switch between doing what his wife wanted and yelling at her for being to crazy. Underneath that he seemed like a decent guy to me though.
when the wife and I were originally together she did use the pill. when she came off the pill to have our first baby she had a lot of trouble and it took a year and some hormone therapy to get her cycle going again. this was really scary to her and she was never willing to tinker with her hormones again. after our second baby we agreed that we did not want a third but the pill was not an option. I was really careful for a long time and we made it work for almost 3 years before I made my stupid decision. I realize now that we were already entering a danger zone before I accidentally got her pregnant. once I screwed up it all fell apart though.
One other thing that I thought was worth mentioning. W never felt protected by her dad. He did not protect her from her mom and he did not protect her from her bad relationships with the boys who got her pregnant.
That is why I really don't know what to do. I know the DB book says to pull away and GAL but our lives are very intertwined and I fear that it might hurt or scare her more if I start pulling away.
Emotional neglect during childhood is one of the key causes of borderline personality disorder. But it doesn't matter what label you put on your wife's state of mental health. She was deeply hurt and affected by her upbringing. Maybe she has BPD, maybe not. The important point is that her emotional being was shaped by those hurtful experiences, and it affects everything today, including how she relates to you. I guess I've said all this before but I want to make the point that this is pretty serious stuff and you're not going to fix your wife and you're not going to fix your marriage without professional help and without lots of time. You probably won't be able to fix anything -- she is who she is, and will stay that way for a very long time.
My two cents.
Also, about "getting her pregnant" -- is it really all your fault? Did you and your wife have a conversation to establish that you are to be held responsible for withdrawing? She always has the option to stop it herself, or ask you to use a condom.
Also, about "getting her pregnant" -- is it really all your fault? Did you and your wife have a conversation to establish that you are to be held responsible for withdrawing? She always has the option to stop it herself, or ask you to use a condom.
I figure that nothing is "all one person's fault" in a marriage. However, at best, I made a really foolish decision. I personally feel that I made an outright stupid decision. I have to own this. I don't think anything productive can happen with my W unless I do.
I agree that each of us needs to own up to our faults and responsibilities. But you also have to think about whether you are taking on too much, to an unhealthy degree, i.e., you are "enabling" another person's unhealthy habit.
I agree that each of us needs to own up to our faults and responsibilities. But you also have to think about whether you are taking on too much, to an unhealthy degree, i.e., you are "enabling" another person's unhealthy habit.
So that gets me back to my real questions at the moment. Should I pull away? Should I confront her about her flirting? Or should I just cruise along as-is and hope that everything will be ok?
Currently, it feels like we are slowly disintegrating so I figure I need to change something.
I don't know if this is relevant but I am including it in case that it is. I have been taking care of all of our needs since day 1 of our relationship. I do not have any regrets about this and it has never seemed like a bad thing to me.
w does not drive by choice, I do all the driving
w only worked a regular job briefly when I met her
w is an accomplished artist but the earnings on her best year were about $4000. currently she is earning almost nothing
w takes good care of our kids (I consider this a full time job and I am glad that she does it)
I cook all our dinners and usually clean up after
I do most of the cleaning
I spend time with kids every day
I pretty much don't do anything separate for myself except for 2 times a week judo workout but even this I do together with oldest son.
This situation has never bothered me until we stopped having sex all the time. Now I think about it.
Do I do too much? Is it possible to do to much?
If I pull back, is it right to use all of this leverage I have? Won't that just push her further away.
I have no idea where to go from here.
It is possible to too much. You want a partner, not anything less.
Based on what you've written, it's tempting to say you're doing too much, and my guess is, you probably are. But I can't say for sure. It depends on everything else going on in your shared life: taking care of kids, shopping, cleaning, bills & finances, etc. So, you have to ask yourself, looking at everything you guys do for the family, is she a mature, responsible equal partner?
I don't know exactly what you should do. But I think it's best not to frame the question in terms of what it will do to your wife. Frame the question in terms of what's healthy for you. What's going to make you a healthy parent, a healthy adult.
Take care of your kids. Take care of yourself. Give your wife the freedom and space she wants to figure things out for herself.
W thanked me yesterday for all of the space. We didn't talk about our situation any further after that. She hugged me and it was nice. I'm afraid to get hopeful but maybe she had reached a turning point inside herself? I guess I should just keep my courage up and keep waiting.
I guess I should just keep my courage up and keep waiting.
No. You should be living your life, not just 'waiting'.
Patience is different from waiting.
What kind of GAL are you involved in now?
I guess I should just keep my courage up and keep waiting.
No. You should be living your life, not just 'waiting'.
Patience is different from waiting.
What kind of GAL are you involved in now?
I practice judo 2 times a week and work out 2 times a week. other than that I spend all my time on the wife and kids. I'm getting the feeling from reading these forums that maybe I don't have enough of an independent life. I never felt strange about this though. I like spending all my time with the family. years ago I had my own business and the wife worked with me and we were together almost 100% of the time. We did that for 3 years and I loved it. I've been thinking about it and I'm not even sure what I would do independently.
Lex, let me ask you this: if you died in a car crash today, would your W be able to take care of herself and your kids in a healthy, reasonable manner?
I don't have enough of an independent life. I've been thinking about it and I'm not even sure what I would do independently.
Sounds like it. Putting your entire life onto her has got to be draining. Think about that - if she werent there, you wouldnt even know what to do. Thats a pretty significant burden to put onto somebody, dont you think?
Excellent point, darknes.
I think that can be suffocating, even to someone who is very needy.
Lex, let me ask you this: if you died in a car crash today, would your W be able to take care of herself and your kids in a healthy, reasonable manner?
financially, yes. I have savings that she has access to and I also have a good life insurance policy. at a minimum she should be able to make it 5 years without any additional income. she would have to get some kind of income going eventually but would have plenty of time.
logistically, I'm not sure. I have handled 100% of our affairs since day 1. if I died she would suddenly be faced with learning to drive, learning to have a budget and learning how to handle money all at once. she is smart though and i'm sure she could do it.
I don't have enough of an independent life. I've been thinking about it and I'm not even sure what I would do independently.
Sounds like it. Putting your entire life onto her has got to be draining. Think about that - if she werent there, you wouldnt even know what to do. Thats a pretty significant burden to put onto somebody, dont you think?
it's not that I disagree but the wife seems to like this state of affairs as much as I do. she has told me she likes to be together as often as possible over the years. If not for the coldness at night you would not even know anything was wrong at my house. we are still doing our daily routine together. neither I or my wife has expressed any interest in doing things apart. that is why I am confused about how to go forward from here.
i'm sure she could do it.
I guess I didn't make my question clear. I was asking whether your W is mature enough and has the life skills to be an independent adult and a parent. It sounds like she is. She's not impaired by ... issues. Which is good. Maybe one thing you could do is to take steps towards letting her become an equal partner in running your family. Are you able to talk about difficult/serious things with her?
She has told me she hates me, has no trust and that I am a murderer.
it's not that I disagree but the wife seems to like this state of affairs as much as I do.
Are you sure?
Lex, in terms of what you should do ... I think you should try to be a person YOU like yourself, and also a person other people would like appealing, and I'm not talking just women finding you appealing but everyone, including family and friends. Be a good, interesting person. When you & your wife were dating ... what were you like? What did she like about you?
i'm sure she could do it.
I guess I didn't make my question clear. I was asking whether your W is mature enough and has the life skills to be an independent adult and a parent. It sounds like she is. She's not impaired by ... issues. Which is good. Maybe one thing you could do is to take steps towards letting her become an equal partner in running your family. Are you able to talk about difficult/serious things with her?
she is mature enough to take care of the kids. she would learn any skills that she doesn't currently have if she had to.
She has told me she hates me, has no trust and that I am a murderer.
it's not that I disagree but the wife seems to like this state of affairs as much as I do.
Are you sure?
pretty sure. she still makes zero effort to be apart from me and she could any time she wanted to. i'm not blocking that.
Lex, in terms of what you should do ... I think you should try to be a person YOU like yourself, and also a person other people would like appealing, and I'm not talking just women finding you appealing but everyone, including family and friends. Be a good, interesting person. When you & your wife were dating ... what were you like? What did she like about you?
I do like myself as I am. My co-workers like me and my friends do as well. I treat the W the same as when we met. it's slowed down a bit by our busy lives with the kids but I make her laugh and listen to her and show her love as much as she will still allow me to do so.
pretty sure. she still makes zero effort to be apart from me and she could any time she wanted to. i'm not blocking that.
My W has neither moved away or towards me in over two years. She is done without being done. She is still here without being still here. Don't counton her not pulling further away as a sign that she isn't done. It just means she isn't ACTING on what she wants. Until she does you have time. Use it wisely.
Listen to the advice being given.
Best wishes
My W has neither moved away or towards me in over two years. She is done without being done. She is still here without being still here. Don't counton her not pulling further away as a sign that she isn't done. It just means she isn't ACTING on what she wants. Until she does you have time. Use it wisely.
Listen to the advice being given.
Best wishes
That is scary. I will get my courage up for the long haul. I hope your wife moves toward you again.
So that gets me back to my real questions at the moment. Should I pull away? Should I confront her about her flirting? Or should I just cruise along as-is and hope that everything will be ok?
Look, just put the thought aside about pulling away....for a few minutes. A newcomer can often get hung up on one thing and miss everything else people are trying to tell him. We are saying it's too soon for us to know how to answer that question right now. We are still trying to find out more from you.
She thanked you for all the space you have been giving her. What or how does she experience "space" from you? What I'm saying is you work full time, then go home and work. Are you thinking that giving her space is freeing her up from cooking/cleaning, etc.? If she does not work full time outside of the home, keeping the children...
only...IMO, should not be all that's expected from her. She is not the
babysitter, she is a wife, a mother, and a homemaker. Is she not capable of running things at home?
If you chose to be the one who took care of everyone's needs.....then how was that supposed to make her feel? I mean you can take care of their financial needs (since you are working), and you can do the yard work or repairs on the house, etc. But to do everything other than sit with the kids all day, was not doing her any favors. I don't understand young men who have this idea their W is not suppose to lift her hand to do any kind of housework or cooking, although she's at home all day. IMO, in order to have her H come home from a full time job and start doing all the work at home there should be a reason....other than him "providing all the needs of his family" For example, if she is sick/disabled
or incapable in some kind of way. If she's not working, and is able/capable but you just chose to treat her like a royal princess, then the results will be a very spoiled, and disrespectful W. There is a big, big difference in being well & capable, from disabled/incapable. There is also a big difference in doing your work and helping out at home.....than doing your work
plus everything at home. It sure didn't help her already low self-esteem for you to do everything yourself (if she
was able). In the beginning, it could have made her feel as though you didn't trust her ability to take care of things at home. Do you see what I mean? IMHO, you have not done any favors for your W by acting as if she is not smart enough, or stable enough, to do anything herself.
What were her reasons for choosing not to drive?
She hugged me and it was nice. I'm afraid to get hopeful but maybe she had reached a turning point inside herself?
She thanked you. That's all. The fact that she hugged means nothing! It's like hugging a brother or an aunt. It is no great sign that she's changing her mind,or that she's at some turning point or anything. Am I just trying to burst your hope? No, I am telling you so that you won't think every little thing she does has some great significance behind it, only to be disappointed again.
What else can you tell us?
I didn't really take over. Things just kind of developed this way over the years. She refused to drive because she is afraid she will wreck the car. She has no interest in cooking so I just kind of stepped up years ago so that we could eat good food. She does minimal cleaning so when something gets too dirty for my taste I just clean it myself. There was never any real discussion. It just kind of evolved. I can tell by the way that she talks about things that she sees this work distribution as equitable. It gives her time to work on her art. If I asked her to take on more she would not do it, would consider it unacceptable.
On the matter of "space" - what my W meant specifically was that I stopped talking about our marital issues, and I stopped trying to initiate sex or any intimate touching at all. I agreed to do this for October and then renewed my agreement to do this in November. She is expecting me to continue this way for December as well. She does not want to discuss us at all. She will only tell me that she is "sad" and "working some things out". she said that the space had improved things for her somewhat but she showed no evidence of this improvement to me because she is still sad and we are not talking or intimate.
- She refused to drive because she is afraid she will wreck the car.
- She has no interest in cooking so I just kind of stepped up years ago so that we could eat good food.
- She does minimal cleaning so when something gets too dirty for my taste I just clean it myself.
Are you sure this is you just "stepping in"? Honestly, it sounds like maybe shes worried she cant meet your standards. You say she is a stay at home mom, but what is she DOING while staying at home?
Id recommend you read a lot of the advice given to Mowgli early in his sitch. It sounds similar to this one.
On the matter of "space" - what my W meant specifically was that I stopped talking about our marital issues, and I stopped trying to initiate sex or any intimate touching at all. I agreed to do this for October and then renewed my agreement to do this in November. She is expecting me to continue this way for December as well. She does not want to discuss us at all. She will only tell me that she is "sad" and "working some things out". she said that the space had improved things for her somewhat but she showed no evidence of this improvement to me because she is still sad and we are not talking or intimate.
So, I would imagine that she will continue this way as long as you dont 'rock the boat'. Can you continue living in this fashion for forever?
If not, maybe it's time to do some 180s....
Are you sure this is you just "stepping in"? Honestly, it sounds like maybe shes worried she cant meet your standards. You say she is a stay at home mom, but what is she DOING while staying at home?
So, I would imagine that she will continue this way as long as you dont 'rock the boat'. Can you continue living in this fashion for forever?
If not, maybe it's time to do some 180s....
she did say to me one time about a month ago that I think she is not good enough. I assured her that I never thought that. it's not re-occurring though. first time she ever said anything like that to me. she has also said that I am controlling her when I talk about our relation ship. this is not completely unfair as I am a fairly persuasive guy. I stopped talking about it though. she also told me that our wedding ring was a "slave" ring when I asked her to wear it again back in September. so I let it go and stopped wearing mine to show that there was no slavery.
she spends her home time making art. she is pretty productive but does not make much money. she is serious about it and trying to make money though. it is high quality stuff and generally well received when people see it.
I cannot live this way. I worry some every day even though I try to practice mindfulness and thankfulness. I am very sad. I am embarresed to admit this even on an anonymous forum but last week I looked at the "casual hookups" section of craigslist and fantasized about hooking up with some of the women who had posted there. My fantasy got a little to real and I felt I could actually see myself going though with this. I felt bad about that and have not looked again.
Just a couple of comments, FWIW:
What your W says to you does not necessarily represent how she's feeling. She might say one thing in the moment, but feel differently much of the other time.
Your W may not know what she wants, nor what will eventually make her feel better. She might say she likes it if you to shop, cook, clean, etc. But it may be making her feel suffocated all the same.
Your W may have a very deep appreciation of all that you do around the house. And it may make her feel incredibly loving to you ... but that may have no relation to romance and sexual feelings. She may feel all those intense feelings to you as ... a brother or a parent.
If a partner is there to serve, serve, serve you ... that's not a partner you feel attracted to. That's a servant. A parent.
If a partner is there to serve, serve, serve you ... that's not a partner you feel attracted to.
Speak for yourself.
Now we're getting somwhere
she did say to me one time about a month ago that I think she is not good enough. I assured her that I never thought that. it's not re-occurring though.
Why would she bring this up again? She said that she had a feeling of something, and your response was to shut it down. Instead of looking at how she might feel that way, your response was to basically say that she was wrong. You dont think that by commandeering all of the responsibilities of the household, it can make someone feel useless or inferior?
she has also said that I am controlling her when I talk about our relation ship. this is not completely unfair as I am a fairly persuasive guy.
Similar comments as above. She comes to you to discuss something, and your approach is to convince her that she isnt correct. Its not about being 'persuasive' - maybe you should read up on validation and try practicing that type of communication.
she also told me that our wedding ring was a "slave" ring when I asked her to wear it again back in September. so I let it go and stopped wearing mine to show that there was no slavery.
Why did you take your ring off? Because she did? To convince her of something? Im guessing that didnt work. In my mind, my ring was a personal commitment to my ex. I took it off when I was finished with the marriage. I dont think playing games with that is a great idea.
she spends her home time making art. she is pretty productive but does not make much money. she is serious about it and trying to make money though. it is high quality stuff and generally well received when people see it.
So you go to work while shes working on her art? Then why is it your responsibility to come home and do all of the chores just because she was home all day?
I cannot live this way. I worry some every day even though I try to practice mindfulness and thankfulness. I am very sad. I am embarresed to admit this even on an anonymous forum but last week I looked at the "casual hookups" section of craigslist and fantasized about hooking up with some of the women who had posted there. My fantasy got a little to real and I felt I could actually see myself going though with this. I felt bad about that and have not looked again.
So if you cant live like this, why are you so reluctant to change?
I will try to be more validating of any feeling that I hear from now forward.
I wore my ring for 6 months while she did not and that felt right but after she said it was a slave ring it no longer felt right. she has divorced me already in a way. It felt false to keep wearing it. I'm not playing games. I hope to wear it again but it is meaningless without her.
I guess I could stop cleaning. Pretty much have to keep making food though because W will not do it and I can't let kids be hungry.
So if you cant live like this, why are you so reluctant to change?
I'm very grateful for everyone's help. I'm sorry if I'm being thick here but what do I change aside from what I said above? I really don't know. I'm up for changing though. Spell it out for me. Apparently I'm hard headed.
So if you cant live like this, why are you so reluctant to change?
I'm very grateful for everyone's help. I'm sorry if I'm being thick here but what do I change aside from what I said above?
You said this a couple pages back:
it's not that I disagree but the wife seems to like this state of affairs as much as I do. she has told me she likes to be together as often as possible over the years. If not for the coldness at night you would not even know anything was wrong at my house. we are still doing our daily routine together. neither I or my wife has expressed any interest in doing things apartThis makes me think you are planning to keep the status quo. If you actually want to change, my advice is to follow Sandi's rules. My advice is to read Divorce Remedy and follow the process as it's described. Im not trying to be coy, but thats the best place to start. Follow the buzzwords --> detach, GAL, 180, act as if....
Are you saying that you were fine with how things were set up, until she called a halt to the intimacy? She could have no responsibilities and just do what she loved.....which was art, and you would cover everything.....just as long as you had the sex life. When the sex stopped, there wasn't much left in the MR for you, is that what you are feeling? You are doing all the giving, but she's not giving anything back. She's just doing her art.
I'm glad you spoke honestly about looking at certain sites and the women who post a profile. Do you have any experience in dating sites, finding friends, Fbuddies, affair hookups.... or whatever they may call themselves? Please, please don't go there. You may be seeking a temporary fix, but it can lead to problems you never anticipated.
Are you saying that you were fine with how things were set up, until she called a halt to the intimacy? She could have no responsibilities and just do what she loved.....which was art, and you would cover everything.....just as long as you had the sex life. When the sex stopped, there wasn't much left in the MR for you, is that what you are feeling? You are doing all the giving, but she's not giving anything back. She's just doing her art.
I'm glad you spoke honestly about looking at certain sites and the women who post a profile. Do you have any experience in dating sites, finding friends, Fbuddies, affair hookups.... or whatever they may call themselves? Please, please don't go there. You may be seeking a temporary fix, but it can lead to problems you never anticipated.
Yes, I was perfectly happy to work hard. I felt loved when we had lots of sex. I did not care how much work I did. Cooking in particular feels sacred to me. Feeding people is a good thing.
Now I am still working hard but I am unloved. Perhaps hated even.
I will not go the hookup way. I was just sad and feeling powerless. I don't want that. I just want the wife back.
So if you cant live like this, why are you so reluctant to change?
I'm very grateful for everyone's help. I'm sorry if I'm being thick here but what do I change aside from what I said above?
You said this a couple pages back:
it's not that I disagree but the wife seems to like this state of affairs as much as I do. she has told me she likes to be together as often as possible over the years. If not for the coldness at night you would not even know anything was wrong at my house. we are still doing our daily routine together. neither I or my wife has expressed any interest in doing things apartThis makes me think you are planning to keep the status quo. If you actually want to change, my advice is to follow Sandi's rules. My advice is to read Divorce Remedy and follow the process as it's described. Im not trying to be coy, but thats the best place to start. Follow the buzzwords --> detach, GAL, 180, act as if....
maybe I am foolish but I liked the status quo. We did it for 18 years so I felt like she must have liked it as well.
is that what you are feeling? You are doing all the giving, but she's not giving anything back. She's just doing her art.
to be more clear
yes, she is doing the art for herself and she is doing much art for the celebrity that she is trying to flirt with. She is no longer giving anything back.
This makes me think you are planning to keep the status quo.
maybe I am foolish but I liked the status quo. We did it for 18 years so I felt like she must have liked it as well.
Thats not what I meant.
She told you all of these terrible things. Said she hates you, etc. And yet, you are coming home dutifully every night to participate in 'family time'. Now that shes turned away when it's just you two, you go off by yourself feeling frustrated and sad.
I advised you to start looking into really starting to GAL. These are your words:
I'm getting the feeling from reading these forums that maybe I don't have enough of an independent life. I never felt strange about this though. I like spending all my time with the family.
the wife seems to like this state of affairs as much as I do.
If not for the coldness at night you would not even know anything was wrong at my house. we are still doing our daily routine together. neither I or my wife has expressed any interest in doing things apart.
So if youre going to keep up with doing everything together and then going separate ways in the house at night, fine....but I dont think that will cause her to actually make any changes. For example, I think you need to have a discussion about household chores. I think you need to start actually GALing. And so on. Frankly, judging by what youre saying, it reads like you are allowing yourself to be a doormat; not someone that should who is respected and attractive.
Okay, your primary love language is probably physical touch. As long as she was having sex with you every day, you were willing to accept the imbalance of responsibility. That may be why one simple hug from her felt so great for you. But the sex has completely shut down and without it, you feel unloved.......and it will start affecting your self esteem.
Physical touch may not be your W's love language, or she may not want it from you. Do you have any idea what her love language is? I think it more probable that one S has a different LL than the other S. Art may be what she loves doing, but that is not what she receives from you. Has she ever told you what she needed from you to feel loved?
I get the impression that you "worked hard" to be rewarded from her having sex with you almost every day of the M. You say you didn't mind, and that you wanted to take care of the needs of your family...........which is NGS script. I suggest you read nice guy syndrome, first. It is short and free download on the Internet. Then read about the five love languages.
I want to say this about you referring to your W's flirtation with the celebrity. The celebrity may or may not be interested in your W.........but your W is in an emotional affair with the celebrity. Don't dismiss the destructive power of an EA......or even an Imaginary Affair. That is when the OP is a fictional character on screen or in literature. It may sound all harmless nonsense to you.........but I grant you it can kill a MR.
I believe your W's infatuation became so strong that it killed her sexual desire for you. A normal woman will romantically desire only one man at a time. She may do everything with her H, but in her heart/mind.....she craves the OM. As long as her EA stays alive in her thoughts, it will affect her feelings. Your MR won't get on a healthy track as long she continues contacting the celebrity........and/or any other man from dating sites, etc.
Do you know if your W has her profile on any type of these sites, or has communicated with some of the members? A bored housewife who is not getting her LL and is unhappy in her MR, could be vulnerable to such sites. Just like you, she'll want to seek out something that makes her feel better. It quickly becomes an addiction! Than you have additional problems.
Sexual flirtation on line should never be seen as harmless.
You wanted to take some type of action, instead of just waiting to see how things go. Read what I previously suggested. Make sure you've read all Cadet's homework. Start thinking about what you want, deserve, and need in a MR. List the action/behavior that you will not tolerate in a relationship, in your home, from your children.....and from your spouse. Then write down what you will do if that action/behavior occurs.
If you don't know the principles, values, beliefs, etc. that you stand on...........then how will you know where to draw the line when it's dishonored? You won't. You will keep on accepting what is thrown on you and being disrespected. You will continue living a lonely and sad life.
Your W may issues that are connected with her past, IDK. Her parents were obviously not good models of a healthy MR. If she watched her mother do whatever and her father was passive and beaten down.......then she has to be taught and inspired by people who know how to have healthy relationships. It could come from interacting with other couples and families on a regular basis, and by reading relationship books (not trash), psychology, etc. She could get therapy for her inner demons. Both of you need to learn how to have balance in your lives, and stop being co-dependent. If you are passive and beaten down like her father......then her feelings for him could carry over to you.
You have to start changing YOU before you can really expect things to change for the better in your M. I think both of you need more involvement in life that requires interaction with others, instead of depending solely on each other. I may be wrong, but the two of you sound so isolated from others. (Especially you). Do you have couple friends? Do you attend church, belong to an organization, attend sporting events, art shows, school or community functions, concerts........anything for fun? I know you said you do everything together, but do you include others and interact with other families? Do your kids play with other children regularly? What type of work do you do?
I hope you won't settle. Don't settle for whatever is left. You should enjoy a full life that includes a variety of sources of enrichment. You have to reach out and get it. If you need help, reach out for it. That is what you did when you joined the board. It may not be coming as fast as you'd like......but it will come.
I practice judo 2 times a week and work out 2 times a week. other than that I spend all my time on the wife and kids. I'm getting the feeling from reading these forums that maybe I don't have enough of an independent life. I never felt strange about this though. I like spending all my time with the family. years ago I had my own business and the wife worked with me and we were together almost 100% of the time. We did that for 3 years and I loved it. I've been thinking about it and I'm not even sure what I would do independently.
I can relate to a lot of this. H and I would have both said we loved spending all our time together.
What we discovered is that for me, as much as I love the emotional connection of being together all the time, when it comes to sexual desire, I need some distance. I need some uncertainty.
It can be tricky to introduce some of that sexual tension and distance in a committed relationship. There's a reason most love stories end when the couple gets together.
I also think it's a bad idea to say, "she must like it because we did it for 18 years." People change. If you want your relationship to thrive over the long run, you have to allow people to change.
Has she ever told you what she needed from you to feel loved?
Do you know if your W has her profile on any type of these sites, or has communicated with some of the members?
Do you have couple friends? Do you attend church, belong to an organization, attend sporting events, art shows, school or community functions, concerts........anything for fun? I know you said you do everything together, but do you include others and interact with other families? Do your kids play with other children regularly? What type of work do you do?
Thanks again for the help. In answer to your questions.
She has never told me what she needs to be loved. But, she seems to need/respond to regular, frequent compliments and reassurances.
She does not have any dating site profiles and has not used any of these sites. Other than my one time look, I have not either. I don't have any site accounts.
We are not disconnected from others. we just do everything together. We have couples that we spend time with and mutual friends that go back years. Our children play with the neighborhood kids and we interact with their parents. Judo club provides some camaraderie to my son and I.
I am an IT professional and I am fortunate to have a very predictable schedule and lots of vacation days.
Two nights ago the wife was laying close to me and we were touching. I put her hand on me and we ended up masturbating together. I was laying on my back and was as neutral as possible. This morning she said that she felt ambushed. I tried to validate her feelings even though I did not feel like I was aggressive with her. I said that it was not my intention to make her feel that way and what could I do to prevent her from feeling that way in the future. She said that she needed more time. I asked if "given enough time" would we eventually be ok. She said yes so I renewed my promise not to talk about us or attempt to have sex with her for December. It all seemed genuine to me but of course I still have fears that I am being used. I plan to keep my promise for another month so I will wait at least that long before doing anything else. I hope that I am making a wise choice.
Last night she laid close to me again and rubbed on me and we talked about light fun things and I made her laugh several times.
I am keeping my expectations to zero as best as I can. Going to concentrate on reassurances and compliments this month.
I want to thank every poster in this thread. Having an outlet is really helping me keep my emotions together. If anyone has any further thoughts about my situation then please feel free to post.
One final thought for today. I believe I will eventually have to confront the W about her flirting with Celeb if she doesn't stop on her own. I don't think we can completely reconnect while that is going on. I will still wait until at least January to see what happens first.
Stop making her promises!
One final thought for today. I believe I will eventually have to confront the W about her flirting with Celeb if she doesn't stop on her own. I don't think we can completely reconnect while that is going on.
So you confront her. Then what?
Stop making her promises!
One final thought for today. I believe I will eventually have to confront the W about her flirting with Celeb if she doesn't stop on her own. I don't think we can completely reconnect while that is going on.
So you confront her. Then what?
Honestly, I don't know. I figure my kids don't care if we are having sex or not, they just want us together. So I can't threaten to leave her. I don't want to leave her anyway.
I considered stopping bankrolling her art or ejecting her from our bedroom to the guest bedroom but those both seem pretty extreme.
I guess this is what I need to decide over the next few weeks.
I agree with Sandi of course-- do not confront about the flirting, she can do what she wants.... people make their own choices and you can make your own boundaries. but if you confront it... sounds like an ultimatum.
Also, I could tweak your response to the sex ambush...how about "I understand..." and thats it. No follow-up, no checking on the future... etc.
I am not an expert, just sharing a couple of ideas ...
Lex
You are Plan B. While she's infatuated with the celebrity she's not going to be really interested in you. When her infatuation with the celebrity ends, she'll likely move on to someone else. But if she can't find someone right away, she may fall back onto you. Until she finds someone else. She might even stay in the marriage long term for financial reasons, but her heart won't be in it.
You might say it worked great for 18 years, why can't we just get back to how it was? I would say it didn't work great for those 18 years, because the relationship and her feelings for you degraded during those years, til it crumbled. Actually, I would say your troubles began long before that, during your wife's emotionally traumatic childhood.
So, you could do nothing. Things will happen to you and your marriage, as your wife acts upon all that has grown in her heart all these years. Sadly, there is very little you can do to influence your wife, and trying to influence her will only make things worse. She's already accused you of rape and ambush. So, that leaves you -- you're the only person you can control.
This is how I see your situation, and much of it mirrors mine. It doesn't look good, Lex. But I don't think it will get better until you accept that something is terribly wrong in your marriage, that it hasn't been healthy for a long time, and that going back is not an answer because there isn't something healthy to go back to.
Don't misunderstand why I asked you about confronting her. If you confront her about the celebrity, and she admits to texting him, then what will you do? The worst thing is for a woman to know that her H knows what she's doing.....but the H isn't doing anything about it.
A WW may get caught, her H may present proof, and she may admit the truth. However, if the H does nothing but bring her A up in confrontation, she will continue with the activity. Her getting caught, or even admitting the truth does not fix the problem. There has to be more than simply telling her you know she's carrying on a flirtatious A with another man.
That's what I want you and other H's to understand. Confrontation, alone, does not fix the problem. You have to be ready to draw a line in the sand about what you will tolerate. And if she doesn't care, then you have to be ready to respond to her disrespect.
I am not against confrontation........if it is done correctly. My point is, however, that it usually just notifies the WW that the H is aware of her contacts. There has to be more than just notifying her. Otherwise, she will either carry the A deeper underground or continue her contacts right in her H's face.
Does any of what I've said make sense?
Does any of what I've said make sense?
yes, I understand, thank you.
I have been preparing myself for confrontation for the past few months. But, as you said, I can't just confront her and then do nothing.
The things that have been holding me back from doing what I want and bringing it out in the open are.
-She will use my getting her pregnant as a battering ram to any argument. logic will not help here. I'm not sure how to respond. I am weak here because I do genuinely feel bad for what I did. I also realize that what I did does not make her flirting ok and that she started flirting before I hurt her.
-I'm not sure what line to draw. most of my thoughts here seem to extreme. I control all finance so I can make whatever I want happen. But, most of this seems just punitive and mean. I'm sure she is hurting and it might just push her harder to go away.
How do I have a velvet fist here?
This is how I see your situation, and much of it mirrors mine. It doesn't look good, Lex. But I don't think it will get better until you accept that something is terribly wrong in your marriage, that it hasn't been healthy for a long time, and that going back is not an answer because there isn't something healthy to go back to.
I accept it. She doesn't feel loved so I have failed her. I've been reflecting on this fact for 9 months now. Plenty of emotional pain has been my teacher. I'm working on more effective loving and where to go from here.
I am going to confront the wife. I am setting a deadline for myself. I already promised her December so I will keep my promise. January is my deadline. It will be more than 10 months at this point. I admit that more waiting will not change anything and will just let us go further into estrangement. I think I need this deadline because otherwise I will let time slip by and do nothing. I'm doing this in January even if I'm not "ready" because I will use readiness as an excuse to not do it. I will keep working hard on myself during this month as I have already been doing.
Asking for help now to do this with a much love as I possibly can.
Asking for help now to do this with a much love as I possibly can.
Lex23,
The doodler approach is to buy a bunch of boxes and packing tape and drop them in front of the WW. Then you say, "Pretty please with sugar on top; you've got three days to pack your sh*t and get out of my house."
Disclaimer: I'm terrible at the DB stuff. But, I was a doormat for a long time; never again!
Asking for help now to do this with a much love as I possibly can.
Lex23,
The doodler approach is to buy a bunch of boxes and packing tape and drop them in front of the WW. Then you say, "Pretty please with sugar on top; you've got three days to pack your sh*t and get out of my house."
Disclaimer: I'm terrible at the DB stuff. But, I was a doormat for a long time; never again!
I think this is too extreme for a first step.
She doesn't feel loved so I have failed her.
Is it really all your fault?
It seems you don't hold her to any standard as a mature, loving partner, except to have sex with you. Maybe that's too harsh but you seem quite happy to act like a parent in the relationship -- she doesn't have to do anything that most normal, mature adults have to do. If she sees you as a parent figure, someone who takes care of her rather than someone who is a partner, that is sure to kill her sex drive for you.
I think you do have to deal w/ her infatuation with the celebrity, but you have to think about whether that's a symptom or a cause. I would guess that even if you confronted her and she was sorry, the problems in your marriage will remain. She's looking for something that your marriage is not giving her.
She doesn't feel loved so I have failed her.
what I meant by this is that I aknowledge that my ways of loving her have been ineffective. I am working on discovering how to love her in a way that she can receive. That doesn't really change the task at hand. The OM might be a symptom but I am starting to be pretty sure that he occupies her heart and I don't. So if I am going to triage the problem then I think terminating OM is more important than the impossible task of giving her what she needs right now. I have been working on myself for 8 months now and will continue to do so.
I think I need this deadline because otherwise I will let time slip by and do nothing.
So what exactly are you thinking of doing?
I'll tell you how the conversation will go:
Lex - I know about all of the messaging with celebrity. You have to stop this.
W - I hate you. There is no marriage. I'm going to do what I want.
Now what?
I think I need this deadline because otherwise I will let time slip by and do nothing.
So what exactly are you thinking of doing?
I'll tell you how the conversation will go:
Lex - I know about all of the messaging with celebrity. You have to stop this.
W - I hate you. There is no marriage. I'm going to do what I want.
Now what?
read my post above. that is what I am preparing myself for. the 2 main problems are
-she will use my accidentally getting her pregnant to dismiss any complaint
-I'm not sure what to threaten
If I had to do it today then I think if she refused to stop I could have her leave our bedroom. I thought this might be to harsh but then again maybe not. Another thing I am considering is that I could have her take over cleaning and cooking and washing the kids. Letting her know that if she wanted to be my roommate then she has to act like one. I will let her know that I can't accept 2nd best anymore and that I want to work on a real relationship together.
That is where I am now. Am I missing something?
W has not received a reply from celeb for a few weeks now. I told myself perhaps it was cooling out and she might work on us soon. She doubled down in stead. she sent him some pretty suggestive writing and an erotic piece of art. All my doubts are erased now. He is practically a fictional character but he obviously occupies the place in her heart where I should be. Lots of things that she said over the last months make more sense now. Healing wise I may have hurt her yesterday. we have not healed at all because she is not trying to heal. I'm sticking to my plan. I don't want to ruin the holidays for my kids and I already promised her no sex no talk for December but January is my deadline. I can't let myself out of this or I will be stuck in the friend zone forever. I realize that my sadness means nothing to her right now as long as I am quiet.
I really need help with how to deal with the issue of her abortion because I'm 99% sure she will use it like a weapon when I bring everything into the open.
I think having her leave our bedroom and doing more housework is completely appropriate now because we are basically roommates while this is going on. I would still be open to any suggestions about this matter as well though.
Thank you all for your words. I don't have anyone to talk to about this and this board has been a lifeline for me. Just typing this out has lowered my stress level.
"Healing wise I may as well have hurt her yesterday"
fixed typo. what I mean here is we have made zero progress because she is not trying to heal. I've been waiting for something that is never going to happen. it's time for action.
How do you deal with a fantasy affair where as you said the W has given her heart away to the idea of it? I'm dealing with this too.
How do you deal with a fantasy affair where as you said the W has given her heart away to the idea of it? I'm dealing with this too.
I believe Cadet was in a similar situation.
I think I need this deadline because otherwise I will let time slip by and do nothing.
So what exactly are you thinking of doing?
I'll tell you how the conversation will go:
Lex - I know about all of the messaging with celebrity. You have to stop this.
W - I hate you. There is no marriage. I'm going to do what I want.
Now what?
I'm not sure what to threaten
Youre not really doing this right. Why do you think YOU can control HER? She doesnt want to work on the marriage, se doesnt have your best interest at heart. Then why do you think you can "make her do more housework?"
If you want to confront her about the affair, then fine. But you need to be prepared for the fallout. You can evict her from the MBR, but what if she refuses? You can "make" her do more housework, but what if she doesnt?
What are YOUR boundaries?
Also, waiting a month is pretty weak. I wouldnt confront her until youre ready. But waiting until January seems kind of arbitrary.
Youre not really doing this right. Why do you think YOU can control HER? She doesnt want to work on the marriage, se doesnt have your best interest at heart. Then why do you think you can "make her do more housework?"
If you want to confront her about the affair, then fine. But you need to be prepared for the fallout. You can evict her from the MBR, but what if she refuses? You can "make" her do more housework, but what if she doesnt?
What are YOUR boundaries?
Also, waiting a month is pretty weak. I wouldnt confront her until youre ready. But waiting until January seems kind of arbitrary.
a wife who doesn't send erotic emails to another man is a boundary of mine.
a wife who is trying to work on our relationships is another.
I'm pretty flexible after that.
Waiting a month is arbitrary but I already promised her December so even if that was a bad idea i'm still going to keep my promise. my hope is that I can be ready by January. I believe that I can be. but i'm not ready now. i'm emotional in ways that I have never been before and my arguments are not formed.
if I tell her my boundaries and then there are no concequences then I may as well not bother. the concequence is what I am trying to figure out.
I agree that I cannot control her. It's obvious to me now.
a wife who doesn't send erotic emails to another man is a boundary of mine.
So, she is doing this now. Why would you let a month go by before you address it if it is YOUR BOUNDARY?
A weak boundary isnt really a boundary....
So what would you do to protect yourself from this behavior? How does having her do more housework relate to this boundary?
a wife who doesn't send erotic emails to another man is a boundary of mine.
So, she is doing this now. Why would you let a month go by before you address it if it is YOUR BOUNDARY?
A weak boundary isnt really a boundary....
So what would you do to protect yourself from this behavior? How does having her do more housework relate to this boundary?
I'm waiting a month because I'm a mess inside and I'm trying to find out how to enforce a boundary that I just discovered.
housework does not relate to this boundary so it might not be the right choice.
I won't sugar coat it. I don't know how to protect myself from this violation yet. I'm trying to figure it out now.
My next thought about this is having her leave our bedroom and/or no more bankrolling her art business. Both of these things are related to OM. she is tying in her business with him as she uses him for promotional purposes and she is making art for him.
More info that I should probably add here.
She was mad at me today and I waited for her to calm herself. We then spoke fairly cordially and she said she is having big issues with domination and giving herself to a man. She said that I am like the goblin king from the movie labrynth. I agreed that I am a forceful person and that she called me correctly. I pointed out that she is like the girl character in that movie in that she doesn't know where her line is and the lack of definition makes it hard for me to be better. she agreed. she is trying hard to make her art profitable and she said that if she was financially independent then she would feel better. I asked her what she would do with this independence when she got it and she didn't know. I pointed out that it was risky to pin her future happiness on money and that she needed to look for a way to feel fulfilled no matter what happened. she seemed to agree somewhat.
So my current self improvement challenge is not to be to dominating but it's going to be hard because it's very subtle. she is already allowed to do anything she wants and there is no sex so I can't dominate her that way. It's pretty much all in my words but we aren't talking about our relationship much so that is a tough one as well.
she said she liked me best when I just seemed kind of moody and didn't try to do anything. I pointed out that if I stayed that way all the time she would not like me anymore. she agreed.
so she feels dominated but nearly anything I do is seen as domination. I have no idea how to address this. I have been using lots of validating.
I don't know if this is a plot or if she is honest but either way this ammounts to me never talking about anything and never having sex.
Not actively pursuing another man seems like a good boundary. Coming up with a good consequence is tough. You could tell her to move out of the bedroom but if she says no, then what? You could try to stop financing her art, but in most (all?) states your wife has legal claims on your income. So if she says no, I'm going to go withdraw money from our account to pay for art supplies, then what? It seems like the boundaries you've come up with could bounce right back into your face.
Your wife's pursuit of the celebrity might end, but the desire in her heart isn't going to go away. She's not going to suddenly fall back in love with you.
You say she sees you as dominating. But you always saw yourself as being helpful to her and serving her needs. I think this is an important point. Regardless of your kind and benign intent, the fact that she's living like a child whose needs are met by a grown up ... makes her feel powerless and resentful towards you. Healthy people go through this resentment process during their teens. They push their parents away and resent them, until they become independent.
That ties in directly with her need to be financially self-supporting. She needs to feel independent. Of course she's going about it in an unhealthy way, but the general desire to be independent is good -- except about 20 years behind most people.
I don't know how you guys run your finances (joint accounts, etc.) but what if you really did start to treat her like a real housemate? Make her to her fair share of shopping, cleaning, paying for bills etc.? I would stop driving her around places too. She has car insurance. If she has a phobia about driving, let her take some driving lessons or get treatment for a driving phobia.
I asked you earlier what would happen if you were not in the picture. Does she have the life skills to be a decent head of a household, take care of your kids? You said she'd be fine. Well, then how about letting her exercise some of those life skills, and empower herself?
The things that have been holding me back from doing what I want and bringing it out in the open are.
-She will use my getting her pregnant as a battering ram to any argument. logic will not help here. I'm not sure how to respond. I am weak here because I do genuinely feel bad for what I did. I also realize that what I did does not make her flirting ok and that she started flirting before I hurt her.
Lex, confrontation is not meant to be a discussion about everything wrong in the MR. It is to tell her your position in this matter of her having an affair. You don't tell her how much you know, or
how you know. Just that you know. Having affairs are not acceptable and you will not remain in an open marriage (if you really mean it). If you don't believe in open marriages, then stand on those beliefs. If she starts dragging other things up (and she will, if you give her a chance), tell her that nothing excuses an affair. Then leave the room, the house, or whatever. Do not argue about the pregnancy, etc. Stick to the issue of the affair. Don't call it by any other word, but affair.
-I'm not sure what line to draw. most of my thoughts here seem to extreme. I control all finance so I can make whatever I want happen. But, most of this seems just punitive and mean. I'm sure she is hurting and it might just push her harder to go away.
It is not about
punishing her. You are not her daddy. It is about standing up for what you believe. If you don't know what your personal values and beliefs are.....then I suggest you think about it before you start opening your mouth.
-I'm not sure what to threaten
Don't threaten anything. If you don't know what you will do if she continues disrespecting the M, then you need to keep your mouth shut. It is not about you
threatening anything. It's not about punishing her. If you are trying to control her behavior through threats and punishment, you will lose all the way around. It's not about you controlling her. It is about what you choose to tolerate, or not. If she doesn't end her EA, then the ball is in your park. That is what I want you to understand. Do not go into a confrontation that you don't even know what you're doing.
Personally, I think the girl should have had professional therapy a long time ago. I'm really surprised this is the first of any inappropriate conduct you have discovered, considering her past. I don't know much about her moral character or spiritual beliefs, but it sounds as if her parents were the best of examples, and/or did not spend much time in teaching some of the more important values to her.
If I had to do it today then I think if she refused to stop I could have her leave our bedroom.
That's just plain funny. The first time you wanted sex, the separate bedrooms plan would crash.
Another thing I am considering is that I could have her take over cleaning and cooking and washing the kids. Letting her know that if she wanted to be my roommate then she has to act like one.
Seriously? You think a roommate would clean, cook, and wash your kids? You should have made her job description understood when you were first M. But YOU were the one who didn't want her doing anything......so she probably doesn't even know how! Besides, why do you want her acting like your roommate? Don't you want her to act like your W? You can't use this to punish her for being bad! However, you can start to incorporate some of those duties......just not as punishment or b/c she is in an EA.
I will let her know that I can't accept 2nd best anymore and that I want to work on a real relationship together.
Think about that statement in a stronger, more self confident light. You
won't accept 2nd best anymore.
Look, I think you have a lot to read and learn before you jump off into doing something you don't understand or prepared to do. Believe it or not, you could actually make things worse than they are right now. So many newcomers will make the wrong move, then come back asking for help in straightening up their mess. That's not a good situation. So, please continue to read the material available here. Do some real soul searching and know yourself and what you really would do if she refused to stop contact with the OM.
Thank you for your help. The last 24 hours have been a weird black time for me. Sandi2, your post in particular has uncovered how much I don't know about myself. I am ashamed of this and it was painful to admit. Waiting before I uncover her affair makes plenty of sense until I get a better handle on this. In the mean time she as been weirdly nice to me. Touching me throughout the day and cuddling in bed. This makes my emotional rollercoaster even more intense. I would swear she is messing with me on purpose if I didn't know better.
I am at the moment caught in a loop. I keep replaying the same problems in my head with no answers forthcoming. Daily life is good and our kids are happy and healthy. I don't want that to end. Her flirting with someone is infidelity and I do want that to end.
My current state of thinking is now this. I would let her know that I know. I would state plainly that it was an affair and that it was unacceptable to me. When she refused to stop I would make it clear that I know that I can't stop her from making this choice but that I will not help her with this in any way either. I would let her know that her quest for independence would need to start with her art business and that I could no longer help with it via money or effort. (I help her with aspects of her art making and I know that some of those efforts were for him and not for the business) I would let her know that physical love if off limits for both of us while this continues. I would let her know that I'm not seeking anyone else and that I am open to reconcile. I would tell her that this could not go on long term without divorce. I think that our kids would come to know in their subconscious that we have no love and it will still affect them no matter how good our deception was.
Then I would wait for a period of time (not sure how long yet depends on what I see from here) and if there was no change or it got worse then I would begin the divorce process.
not sure if a deadline is a good idea or not but I can't live this way long term. It hurts to much.
Initiating the divorce myself seems wrong because it is opposite what I want but perhaps it's just acceptance of reality and what might be unavoidable anyway. I really don't know. I don't feel like I have a right choice. They are all just shades of wrong.
Just so you all know. I am reading the books and materials with every spare moment that I have.
It made me laugh out loud just now but I was just thinking this must be what it feels like to suddenly have to land an airplane with no prior experience.
you have to learn how to land it right or die and you don't have much time.
Please be extremely hesitant about saying anything that sounds like an ultimatum to her. I am concerned things may backfire on you, and that's why I encourage you to read the links. You may want to do some research on MLC, too.
When you can look inward and see what you need to do to improve yourself, you can set personal goals to keep you on track. Then decide or figure how you can obtain those goals. You can read information or look for personal growth tapes/classes or whatever it is you feel you need.
What about your parents and your childhood? Do you have a good relationship with them?
What do you like to do for fun? What gives you inspiration?
I think we can learn from each other here on the board. So, stick with it.
What about your parents and your childhood? Do you have a good relationship with them?
What do you like to do for fun? What gives you inspiration?
I think we can learn from each other here on the board. So, stick with it.
My mother was pretty much always dissatisfied with life in general. she provided all the physical things that I needed but emotionally she taught me nothing. I nearly had to grow up emotionally from scratch when I left the house. she eventually divorced my dad and ran off with a man 20 years younger. amazingly, they are still together and her attitude has improved. we are on speaking terms and she seems to love her grandkids.
My dad definitely suffers from nice guy syndrome and does till this very day. He never stood up to my mom when she was hard on my brother and I and he did everything wrong when my mom was leaving him. He remarried and divorced the same woman two times after my mom. I talk to him occasionally on the phone but that is it. I'm pretty sure I inherited my "goblin king" tendencies from him. I am actively working on improving this part of myself.
I enjoy judo and while I am not a tournament winner, I am decent at it and can win matches sometimes. It keeps me in good shape and it keeps my spirit up. Judo workouts are intense and that has really provided me the only relief from my sadness. My older son enjoys working out with me and the younger one is expressing interest in getting on the mat when he is old enough.
wife called me at work today "just to say hi and see how I was doing" This is weird because she very rarely does this anytime for many years. we talked for a bit and I was on the road for work so I was able to stop at home for lunch. She was friendly and when it was time for me to go she hugged me and kissed me several times. This is after 6 months of turning away from my kisses and 3 more months of me not even trying to kiss her.
I have no idea what to think of this. Very confusing. She was just telling me I was the goblin king less than 24 hours ago.
Just going with the flow for now.
Lex, your troubled family life is another reason why I think you'd benefit from getting individual counseling, to see what good and bad baggage you are bringing to your marriage, and how you can be a healthier individual.
Re: your current "game plan" for talking to your wife ... as Sandi2 said I'd keep thinking about it before going forward, but one thing I advise you to think about is how, in your game plan, you want to avoid treating your W like a child, and more like a spouse. I'm concerned that if you frame things in terms of, "if you don't do X, I'm going to take away Y," that perpetuates the parent-child dynamic in your marriage. You are to be two equal partners pulling the same weight, helping each other. I'm not sure how this applies to finances, if you're the one getting a paycheck and your W earns nothing. But there's got to be a way to address this without sounding like a parent taking away an allowance from a child.
Re: your W's affection today -- it must feel good. I'd give a million bucks for something like that from my W. In any case, you can't mind read, and she's likely going to flip-flop, so be steady, super steady. Warm & friendly but detached. Steel yourself for her being mean tomorrow, or realizing that she's still infatuated with the celebrity.
Took the kids roller skating this weekend. we all had a pretty good time. the kids did pretty well for their first time. roller skating brings back positive memories from W past. back to no physical contact all weekend. spent all weekend reflecting on how to approach wife about her affair. @forgump - I believe that you are exactly right about how I do this. If there is even a shade of inequality or "parenting" in my approach then it is going to fail. she is definitely hyper-sensitive to me controlling anything right now. thinking hard on how to keep that from happening.
One other thing that might have some meaning.
wife talked about future plans with me about vacating next summer and a few other things. feels so weird to me she won't acknowledge our marriage but still talks about future plans almost a year away.
wife called me at work today "just to say hi and see how I was doing" This is weird because she very rarely does this anytime for many years. we talked for a bit and I was on the road for work so I was able to stop at home for lunch. She was friendly and when it was time for me to go she hugged me and kissed me several times. This is after 6 months of turning away from my kisses and 3 more months of me not even trying to kiss her.
I have no idea what to think of this. Very confusing. She was just telling me I was the goblin king less than 24 hours ago.
Just going with the flow for now.
Fluctuations in affection really confuse me too
One other thing that might have some meaning.
wife talked about future plans with me about vacating next summer and a few other things. feels so weird to me she won't acknowledge our marriage but still talks about future plans almost a year away.
My W does this too; she keeps talking about D and our future together. I like to think of it as confusing and W not knowing what she wants but other veterans think she is just being manipulative and knows exactly what she wants.
I was reflecting today on my journey so far. I think I have gone through the stages of grief and am nearing the last stage. I was definitely in denial for a few months. First total denial that anything was going wrong, then partial denial when I was thinking that things could be repaired quickly. Then I remember being angry for a few weeks. I moved through that quickly. I have never been able to hold onto anger for long. Then I remember bargaining as lasting 4 or 5 months. That was when I was trying to "fix" the situation by talking to W and doing things for her. Definitely wasted some time and did some damage during this time. I am hard headed this way, but I never begged, so that is good. I think I can fix things that are unfixable. It was when I realized that this was impossible that I started searching the internet for what I did not know. I found this forum then. It was a big help but it caused me to move into depression. I had some of the lowest days I have ever known. This might sound foolish but I actually didn't know a person could be that sad. It really surprised me. I really turned in on myself for a few more months. I reflected on how it would be possible to be even sadder (death of a child for example) and this made me cringe. I hope I never experience that. Yesterday, something clicked in me. I'm kind of thinking today that I really have lost my wife. Just because she is physically here does not mean that we have a connection. I am happy that we are still together for the kids sake. I don't know if I will fall backwards into depression again but today I only feel a kind of low level melancholy. I have a real "come what may" feeling. I hope that my W comes around but I guess I will have to accept whatever happens.
Not sure why I am writing this. I think maybe it will be good to come and read it later. Especially if I start to get depressed again.
I was reflecting today on my journey so far. I think I have gone through the stages of grief and am nearing the last stage. I was definitely in denial for a few months. First total denial that anything was going wrong, then partial denial when I was thinking that things could be repaired quickly. Then I remember being angry for a few weeks. I moved through that quickly. I have never been able to hold onto anger for long. Then I remember bargaining as lasting 4 or 5 months. That was when I was trying to "fix" the situation by talking to W and doing things for her. Definitely wasted some time and did some damage during this time. I am hard headed this way, but I never begged, so that is good. I think I can fix things that are unfixable. It was when I realized that this was impossible that I started searching the internet for what I did not know. I found this forum then. It was a big help but it caused me to move into depression. I had some of the lowest days I have ever known. This might sound foolish but I actually didn't know a person could be that sad. It really surprised me. I really turned in on myself for a few more months. I reflected on how it would be possible to be even sadder (death of a child for example) and this made me cringe. I hope I never experience that. Yesterday, something clicked in me. I'm kind of thinking today that I really have lost my wife. Just because she is physically here does not mean that we have a connection. I am happy that we are still together for the kids sake. I don't know if I will fall backwards into depression again but today I only feel a kind of low level melancholy. I have a real "come what may" feeling. I hope that my W comes around but I guess I will have to accept whatever happens.
Not sure why I am writing this. I think maybe it will be good to come and read it later. Especially if I start to get depressed again.
This is good self-observation.
Just know that likely, you will cycle back to the other stages as your situation proceeds. It's natural and OK.
Every day is not going to be linear progress forward.
Keep your eyes on your goals, and youll be good.
The cycle will continue. The old saying one step forward and two steps back.
Over time it will get better and better!!
wife talked about future plans with me about vacating next summer and a few other things. feels so weird to me she won't acknowledge our marriage but still talks about future plans almost a year away.
See anything there ^^^^ that is cake for her? A WW can be so entitled that she believes she should continue in taking part in all the family events.....even if she is no longer with her H.
