Waywards do come back. First step: LET GO

Thread 1:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...289#Post2670289

Thread 2:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2677578&page=1

Thread 3:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2688297#Post2688297

Originally Posted By: BluWave

That was a nice bit on forgiveness. Thank you.

Admittedly, I struggle with forgiveness. It has been some time now that H has been back (1.5 years) and I have not fully forgiven him yet. Some days I don't even want to. I agree with the quote that it happens in steps. It is not simply a switch that is turned on or off. My process has been rather slow--3 steps forward and 2 steps back.

I don't know what I am so afraid of. I can understand why the sequence of events happened in the deterioration of our M and I can see my part as well. Where I get stuck is simply the betrayal. To be honest, I may come to a point where I move away from this M. That is what my instincts tell me. Not anytime soon, not in the next several years, but some day. I want to know that I stuck it out and tried my best. H is a changed man--a good man, H, and father--but I continue to long for the way I used to feel about him. My heart is forever damaged. How do you forgive someone fully for that?

Sometimes I think coming here and reading/posting prevents me from moving forward and finding more forgiveness. When I read the posters' struggles, pain, and desperation I can't help but want to protect them. I don't feel an emotional trigger, but more a reminder of what I went though and that I allowed this man to destroy me. It took me far too long to let go of him. and pick myself up. It's is taking many of you too long as well!

I wish more posters would stop pining for the person who is hurting them and let go. LET GO. It's your only hope for healing and their only hope for finding themselves and possibly a way back to the M. I feel that so many here are trying to be a lighthouse, a friend, and just waiting, when really they are a door mat with a lost soul.

Maybe I need to go on a DB diet. Maybe that is why folks in piecing go dark from this site. I can see so clearly where folks are going wrong but I feel so powerless. I really admire all of you that keep coming back and helping others for all these years.

Everyone deserves respect, love, and you are ALL valuable. But you cannot look to your M to find yourself or your happiness in life. It comes from within. Even if and when they do come back it will never, ever be the same. The M is dead. The innocence is gone. Only if you both have let go, grieved the end, and learned to love yourself, and only then, can you build something stronger together. I may or may not reach that point, but I am a work in progress.

Blu

Blu, you might find benefit in my follow up post...there is more to he forgiveness thoughts that I have found and reposted...

I sense that you are very hard on yourself...you judge yourself more harshly than you judge your H as I perceive in your story.
Is it possible you have looked within for for happiness, respect and love, but missed the process to forgive yourself and rebuild your own self trust.
Is it possible that you want to protect those posters here in the community because you see yourself and wish that you could have rescued yourself in those days that you shared you could not get out of your own way?

Your WH did the unthinkable...there is no doubt in that...and I can't pretend to imagine what you went through...but I do not believe that he destroyed you, as you are here today stronger...battle scarred yes, but you are stronger and wiser for the hell you went through...I do beg of you to not give in just yet as you have come so far.
But I might challenge you here to take your focus from the thoughts that you are not feeling that "love" that you say you would want to feel for your H in order to save the M, and turn the focus to forgiving yourself.
Forgive yourself for getting stuck early on. For not DBing well enough as you share. For putting up with WH and kicking and screaming and...and all the other things that you have not forgiven yourself for.
Then get to building up the trust in yourself to do that which you know is right, be strong, and any other things that you may have lost self trust in.

No heart can permanently be damaged...God forbid that be possible...I believe that we choose to keep the wall up around an injured heart, but permanently damaged? I choose not to believe this possible, or forgiveness is not a real thing.

Blu, you are learning and growing and progressing. You are still with your H and family. This counts for something.
No matter what the future brings whether it is with your H or not, please promise me...please accept this challenge...turn your focus to you and forgiveness of yourself...then look back and things may or may not look differently...I believe that is why MWD shares that there are marriages that are stronger than ever after an affair...she does not say that all survive it, but those stronger than ever leads me to believe that self forgiveness happened first, because only that true forgiveness and rebuilding of trust could possibly lead to the forgiveness of the WS...IMHO.
Just my 2c

Also a couple of quotes that have me to ponder...and maybe ca for you as well.

�I never knew how strong I was until I had to forgive someone who wasn�t sorry, and accept an apology I never received.�

I may have to figure this one out...I do not believe that I will get an apology...I pray that I am wrong, but regardless forgiveness of her has been a goal of mine from the start.
Your H has sought out forgiveness and if I recall there has been an apology and action?

�I have learned, that the person I have to ask for forgiveness from the most is: myself. You must love yourself. You have to forgive yourself, everyday, whenever you remember a shortcoming, a flaw, you have to tell yourself "That's just fine". You have to forgive yourself so much, until you don't even see those things anymore. Because that's what love is like.� C. Joybell C.
Maybe we don't know what that love is supposed to feel like for another...if we have not showed it to ourself.

Blu, you are a wonderful person. I draw much encouragement and strength from your presence here.
You are in my prayers and heart.

wow blu! Thank you for your very insightful reply. I strongly believe I'm in currently in the grieving process.

thank you for sharing what PP wrote. It really speaks to me. As I was reading I found myself making a mental list of things on Island 2 for me.

thank you!

cheesyt, I am so glad that was helpful! Sometimes when we read threads here it begins to all look the same "180, GAL, focus on self, and detachment," and it's completely overwhelming when we are lost and depressed. I know when I used to read here (when H left me), it made sense logically but I didn't know how to do it. When worded differently and even metaphorically it speaks to some of us. I really like the Island analogy. It had me thinking about my own sitch and why at times I may feel stuck. Put simply, I never finished Island 2 when H came back. So I also never fully moved off of Island 1. I keep wanting to revisit it, and sometimes get stuck somewhere in between.

SH, my dear friend, thank you. Your words are so thoughtful, wise, and supportive. I truly appreciate what you wrote and I think I need to retread it several times for it to sink in. It's interesting that you are telling my how hard I am on myself because I was telling you the exact same thing earlier this year. Perhaps it takes one to know one :-)

You are correct tho. I am my own harshest critic and I have heard that my entire adult life. I think it's also helped me to be successful in other areas tho--academically and in my work. So what you are saying is that I need to find forgiveness of myself in order to heal? And that I need to heal my heart in order to move forward in forgiving my H? Then how would you propose I start?

I don't see myself giving up on H or walking away ever. However I know I keep him at arms length, and I do this by doing nothing. My inactions are my actions for slowly continuing detachment. I hadn't thought of myself as stubborn until this sitch In the last couple years. I just can't quite accept what he did. I want to, but that is where I get stuck. Is it the betrayal or is it that I have not healed from the trauma? I have not even shared some of the details that lead up to his A, and it's pretty awful.

He apologizes all the time. He is incredibly remorseful and regretful. He has taken full responsibility, he is committed to doing whatever it takes, and he is also recovering from being the Nice Guy. So he has to walk the fine line of being present and patient but not falling back into being a doormat. His years of Nice Guy (door mat) behavior are one of the things that corroded our M. I lost respect for him and he grew resentful and found me controlling--we were very codependent.

It's interesting because he is naturally good at DB without having read the material or knowing what it means. He doesn't pursue, he is working on himself, he validates, and he is available when I reach out. He is an awesome lighthouse so to speak. Perhaps that's why I won't become a WAS! Perhaps I need to truly and fully move off of island 1 and swim to the light.... Oh man that was cheesy but so true. Lol.

Blu

Love, forgiveness and trust

These are all mutually excclusive. I think you caneed love and not forgive, love and not trust.

Clearly we can trust without love. It isn't an all or nothing choice, you can trust on one thing and not on another.

Love is a choice.

Is forgiveness a choice? Forgiveness is different it is an action.

To forgive I believe we have to amend our belief system. They say to err is human to forgive devine. I belive this, our higher power forgives. It is its job not mine.

I don't think it's necessary to forgive your reformed WH. Maybe he hasn't atoned in the way you need. Perhaps you need more from him?

Sometimes waywards atone in the way that suits them. It has to be to suit you, satisfy you.

Then let it go cleanse and ritualise.

You may never trust wholly again. Once bitten as they say.

All of that is ok.

You can love and you do.

V

Hi Blu,

Here's an idea... fall in love with your H again. Love is a choice and you take it every day. Your will power split could save many marriages on this forum. But falling in love again is what you are missing.

Your heart yearns to fall in love with him, but you don't know how you can trust him again. Who cares if you can trust him, you want to be with him, you are with him, so fall. Fall in love with him with all of your heart.

Only when you surrender your heart, will you surrender the pain. And if you're looking for trust, trust God. Humans err, God does not.

V, thank you for this. Love, I do. Trust, I am. Forgiveness is where I get stuck. Most things in my life fall into place as I come to understand them. I can dissect and process until I reach understanding. I get it now--I see what happened, but it's the acceptance that gets me. Can I accept what happened if I am not able to forgive. And without those, I don't know if I can have the kind if relationship with H that I want. I want so much more than what I have. While I may never feel the way I used to about him, I still need something as good. Or better.

DDJ, I agree love is a choice. I choose each day to be with H. I try to love him each day as well. But to fall in love again--well how do you suggest I do that? Surrender my heart, but how? I would be a fool if I didn't learn a lesson here--and that he or anyone else can hurt me--anyone can hurt us if we let them-- and really, we can only rely on ourselves in life. I will never need another person.

I read so many threads here about waywards and I find myself more and more thinking that I want the LBS to let them go and move on! Love yourself and value yourself enough to know you deserve better. People keep toting how much they believe in marriage and family, but don't we all? You've got to believe in yourself first! Even if they do come around---they have got to WANT to be with you and they have got to CHANGE their ways. Sitting and waiting or trying to love them is not what brings people back. Love yourself.

My H has done all and more and I still have to heal my own heart and find forgiveness. So please listen to me and start now. Let them go.

Blu

I have learned the lesson that anyone can hurt me, I never ever thought this would happen but it did. I agree that I don't NEED another person and I can only rely on myself.

I don't know why all of us LBS don't value ourselves more, when I think about why I want my W to come back I am seeing the person I married, not the person that did this to me. She could come back if she WANTED but obviously she doesn't .....I need to do a better job of letting go....I'm getting there....

Thanks Blu...once again great post!!!

Hawk, you are doing a great job! One of the reasons I started posting is because I struggled the entire time H was gone. It took me a looonnnnggg time to really let go and start imagining a life without him. When I started to do that is when he realized he was losing me. He was correct and he would have lost me. But he did a fast 180. More important than that, I freed my mind up from so many toxins!

Keep on keepin on! As you move on and get stronger she will realize what a fool she is. Or she won't. If she's doesn't, then one day you will be grateful and attract someone that can truly appreciate and love you the way you deserve. It's a win-win for you either way! So simple it's hard to get :-)

Blu

Can you forgive your H?

It matters to you a great deal. Your belief appears to be forgiveness is ESSENTIAL? I ask if that is your belief?

So I ask what does forgiveness mean to you?

What does it not mean?

To me forgiveness isn't essential. That's my belief.

And it is not necessary to forget either. Forgiveness doesn't mean forgetting. You may never forget.

Is there bitterness, the need for revenge, are you living in some type of harmony?

Can I recommend the Jeanne Safer book on forgiveness. This book changed my world.

I have no anger, I didn't understand why I had no anger. Surely I should have anger, the thought consumed me that I could not heal unless I had anger. Then I knew, I had let go of the need for revenge, I had let it go. I just wanted the Giggalo gone, he hasn't asked for forgiveness. He keeps on coming like the Terminator. For money, still I have let him go and although there is damage it's my issue.

I have let go of the need to forgive. That need has gone. I don't need to forgive him. I have let go of the damaging feelings of revenge and bitterness. It's happened, I can't undo it and I thank God I found out quickly otherwise the damage would have been greater. I have no need to forgive to live in peace. I wish him well I truly do. I hope things work for him although I suspect they won't.

Consider, have you forgiven but are still holding on to memories? Do you think if you can't forget you haven't forgiven?

V

Originally Posted By: BluWave

DDJ, I agree love is a choice. I choose each day to be with H. I try to love him each day as well. But to fall in love again--well how do you suggest I do that? Surrender my heart, but how? I would be a fool if I didn't learn a lesson here--and that he or anyone else can hurt me--anyone can hurt us if we let them-- and really, we can only rely on ourselves in life. I will never need another person.

so how does one fall in love with someone? I believe that we are born to fall, but the fear of getting hurt keeps us from falling. Ordinary love is painful and who really wants pain. BUt if you think about your first few years together, that feeling of being in love was perfection. Nothing could break that feeling, you were walking on water together.
Then he fell out of love, broke your heart and you both sank into the lake.

Now facing the pain, facing the fear and just letting go of it is the key. But you have to break your heart one last time in order to let go and surrender to the love that your mind is stopping you from feeling.

You look at your H with consternation and fear, anxiety and sadness of a life once lived. And you're losing out on the best moments of your life - right now. Forget about the future, forget about the past.

Just jump, jump into his arms one day and never let him go!

Originally Posted By: Vanilla

Can you forgive your H?

It matters to you a great deal. Your belief appears to be forgiveness is ESSENTIAL? I ask if that is your belief?

So I ask what does forgiveness mean to you?

What does it not mean?

To me forgiveness isn't essential. That's my belief.

And it is not necessary to forget either. Forgiveness doesn't mean forgetting. You may never forget.

Is there bitterness, the need for revenge, are you living in some type of harmony?

Can I recommend the Jeanne Safer book on forgiveness. This book changed my world.

I have no anger, I didn't understand why I had no anger. Surely I should have anger, the thought consumed me that I could not heal unless I had anger. Then I knew, I had let go of the need for revenge, I had let it go. I just wanted the Giggalo gone, he hasn't asked for forgiveness. He keeps on coming like the Terminator. For money, still I have let him go and although there is damage it's my issue.

I have let go of the need to forgive. That need has gone. I don't need to forgive him. I have let go of the damaging feelings of revenge and bitterness. It's happened, I can't undo it and I thank God I found out quickly otherwise the damage would have been greater. I have no need to forgive to live in peace. I wish him well I truly do. I hope things work for him although I suspect they won't.

Consider, have you forgiven but are still holding on to memories? Do you think if you can't forget you haven't forgiven?

V

V, thank you, I am going to read the book. The thing is I don't actually know the answers to these questions because the answers are changing. The more I think about it, the more I don't know how I feel about it. I do think I need to forgive him to stay in the M, so yes, it's essential. I do want to forgive him. Not only for the M to work but because I don't want to harbor these negative feelings.

Is there bitterness? Yes. Sigh. Part of the problem. That I am slowly letting go of. What does forgiveness mean to me? I think it means that while I don't have to forget, I do need to accept what he has done and that it will always be in our history now. It's so hard to accept something that my entire life I thought I wouldn't.

I am impressed that you have let go of the anger. I try, I do. But admittedly it is still there. My mom asked me when I am going to stop punishing him. I even didn't realize I was. It feels more like I am punishing myself. He is still waiting for me and he has even told me this ...

Blu

DDJ, thank you for this. It makes complete sense. I found myself laughing when I read it tho, because you are quite poetic and obviously a romantic! I am so practical in my thinking. And practically speaking, his BS shenanigans made no sense to me! It still blows my mind what he did.

You are right in that I am not living in the moment. I am thinking about the past and I keep him at arms length, which prevents us from moving forward. I will try harder. I just need to make that final leap. Sigh.

Blu

Hey Blu, just sending you a well deserved hug (((Blue)))...

It blows my mind as well what all of our WS's did...I totally get why it would be hard to trust again, (I wish I knew in my sitch) but maybe the same thing you tell us about letting go to get them to realize what they are losing is the same letting go to the past so you can find the new love/M with your H?

Thanks, everyone. Ok. Fine. I will try that. Sigh. :-)

Hahaha. Ok. Good. Try it!! :-)

Hey Blu, don't try. DO. If you try, then there is a chance of failure.

Last year I went skydiving for the first time. It was a surprise and I had some alcohol poisoning (inflicted from my own bday party the nite before). But I couldn't say no, fate had intervened. Well i could have said no, but i would not be living life to the fullest. Enjoying the moment.

Your H loves you so much, he's willing to wait until eternity for you to fall. He will catch you the moment you decide to DO it. Someones motto on here states "Love awakens love", and that is so true, so love with all of your heart, not for the past or the future. Love for right now, every second of everyday.

Ps, yes, i'm a hopeless, helpless romantic. I get it from my Father.

(((DDJ))) Thank you. I am taking this in and challenging myself to look at my H from a different lens. Feeling more connected so far.

V, and I thank YOU for the book. I have just started and it is so far a wonderful read for me. Beautiful writing style as well.

Feeling grateful today. Thank you everyone!

Blu

Yeah!!! I am glad that you are feeling more connected with your H!!! ;-) I hope it continues!!!

We all still have a lot to be grateful for, I know I have a great house, great circle of friends and family, my dogs and this community here to keep me going!!

Thanks Blu!!

I hope that the connection is getting stronger Blu. You know that he is your soulmate, and you're not gonna give up. He feels the same way too and if two people don't give up on each other then nothing, absolutely nothing can stand in their way.

Look him deep in the eyes, don't blink when you talk to him. You have nothing to hide, except your soul, so don't hide it.

Sorry if i'm a bit much.

Blu,

I did not read all of your threads but from what I read you are afraid to fully get in. Which I completely understand. Just like you, I never thought I would forgive infidelity and all the destruction it brings to the family (and extended family and even friends). For me it was a deal breaker. Until it happened to me...

I am a very strong and independent woman who does not really need a man but wants one. So, I always thought that I rather be alone than living with someone who betrays me. But when it happened to me, I realised that while my h should have thought better, should have been stronger etc., I was not ready to destroy our family for that. I was hurting like I could never imagine I would. But at the end I forgave him. And I learnt that if you want to succeed in getting back together you need to forgive.

Your mom is right, you are punishing him. And I totally get it, I was doing the same. Until I realised that if I want to make it work, I have to stop that. And I can tell you, it can be done. It took us some time but I made a mental list of pros and cons and decided that if I want my family back I have to trust him again even if it means that my heart will be broken again. So I did. It was not as easy as it may sound. There were better days and worse. I did not completely stop thinking about it and I did bring it up from time to time.

All you need to get over it is time. So, try to think less about the past and live more in the present. Don't think about the future. Especially don't think about the fact that you may get hurt again. Yes, you may. Or you may not. The chance is 50-50. The question is, what is worse, throwing away the chance to be truly happy, or try to be happy and maybe get hurt.... Btw, you are not punishing just him, you are punishing yourself.

It took me one year to completely stop thinking about h's affair. What helped us was a few weekends away, just the two of us. Not all of them were purely romantic. One of them turned out to be a disaster even (yes, it was me who ruined it, recalling things I should have left buried but just couldn't help myself). But it was all part of the healing process.

Granted, once I was completely over the first affair, soon after I discovered the second one. But my h is in a full blown MLC and I should have known better than reconciling with him before his MLC was over. In your case, your h seems to be doing all the right things so do not look at my experience as an example of how things may turn out between you two.

Is there a guarantee that everything works out well? No. Is there a chance that if you let go of your anger and fear things can be much better than before his affair? Yes. The only question is, are you willing to take a risk.

I must say that I do not regret reconciling with my h after his first affair. We had really great time and our kids were so happy to see us all loved up again, until a death in his family sucked him back to his MLC. Yes, if I knew that time that if MLC is not fully completed it comes back and gets much worse second time, I would have waited with the reconciliation. But I still don't regret it.

From what you write and what some other posters say, it seems that your presence on this board is holding you back. Forgive me for saying this but, in my opinion, you are taking it all wrong. You should not hold back out of "loyalty" for those of us here whose spouses are still acting out. I think our stories should serve you to understand your husband and the reasons why he did what he did better. You should realise that he is just a human being who makes mistakes, who was weak, etc. Yes, he should have known better but... He is definitely not the only one.

I do not want to excuse any cheaters. It makes me angry that they do not think about consequences and how much their actions hurt others. But this board did help me to understand my h and his reasons better. I even forgave him for his second affair (which now seems to be over) even though I do not want him back now (at least not yet). But I do understand him better. Try to do the same.

I wish you all the best! I do hope that with time it will get much easier for you and you will fall in love with your h again. And I hope that it happens before he gives up trying...

DDJ, thank you. And thank you for the laugh. :-) Maybe we could all use a little more romance. I was thinking more diamonds would be nice too. Ha!

Bee, thanks for weighing in. I haven't read any of your posts. So your H had an A, you worked through it, he had another A, and now you are most likely done? What was the time line on that? I'll look for your thread. Can you link it here?

I don't think the boards hold me back in that I feel loyalty with other DBers, but more so it was (less as I move forward) a constant trigger. It is also a painful reminder when I read about LBS pining for a WS that is walking all over them. I want to see more LBS DB, let go, focus on them GAL, etc, because I know it is the best thing for them. I also can see how much I added to my own pain by not doing it correctly.

I am realizing that I can shift my focus and perspective to better understand how/why things could have happened to us, as opposed to being left with a painful trigger. For example if I read a post where LBS is struggling with an emotion that I can relate to, I stop and think about why I may have experienced that too, how I handled it, and what I could have done differently. This is where the focus of my advise comes from.

So over all in my sitch, I have turned another corner. I feel closer to H and I am making an effort to let some walls down. We have had some fun dates recently. I have tried to tell him more specifically the things I want from him and he is doing them. It feels nice. I have decided that I can fall in love with him without codependency. I don't want that. I want a genuine friendship and the type of love that we both choose each day. It's ironic because I thought we had that for the first 12 years or so, but I can see now how we didn't. Was this sitch a blessing in disguise? I have no idea.

I also want to post about my continual DB efforts--I always say it is for life--because I appreciate the posters that can do this.

For my 180s, I am trying to be more flexible with H and the kids. I am allowing them to make some decisions that I normally would make. I am exercising more patience and giving up some control. I am also trying to be more present when I am with people. It is an ongoing effort for me.

For my GAL, I have been spending much more time with friends. I have gotten a house cleaner, which has freed up some time on my days off. I have taken up a new hobby and been crafting with one of my kids. I have decided to take up a new exercise program, and realize that I have fallen off the wagon with fitness, so I am looking into what that is.

I have been given some new responsibilities at work. I am going to study for a test and additional credential.

More so, I am trying to work on being less hard on myself. My friends are walking in the door. More later....

Happy Sunday. Keeping on DBing folks. It's for life!
Blu

I don't post much, I have only one thread so far (in Midlife Crisis forum). I don't really know how to put links here yet. But you would not find my posts very relevant as I only started to post after I asked my h to leave which was after the second affair was discovered. So, I only mentioned the first affair briefly and not the happy time between the two as it was not really relevant for my current situation.

To answer your question about time line, after I discovered his first affair, he put an end to it and we agreed to work on the marriage. But given that he was her boss, he had to continue being it touch with her. I insisted that he doesn't talk privately with her, no lunches together etc. No lunches he respected but she kept texting him privately (mostly about her feelings and how hurt she was) and he was replying (not to all of them but still).

When I found out he apologised and explained that he had to do that in order to make sure there will be no consequences professionally. He said he did not tell me about it because he did not want me to hurt unnecessarily or think he is doing it because he still has feelings for her. I would understand if he told me but because he didn't we had many fights the first few months (3-4 months). Fights continued even though immediately after I discovered that they text privately,he talked to her and explained that it has to stop. Which it did but I did not believe him at first.

But then I decided that I have to trust him if I want to make it work and stopped with the fights and bringing up the past on regular basis. Then things started to improve between us and we had really great year and a few months together. It was much better than before the affair, I must say. We were really happy. After a year since the affair was discovered I did not even think about it anymore. Completely healed. Until his uncle passed away. The day after the funeral he went on a business trip and since he came back things started to get worse again. And later I discovered the second affair.

But again, in my case my h goes through midlife crisis for several years now so it's different. I just wanted to tell that marriage can survive infidelity and can actually get better if you let it. Even for strong independent women who always believed they would not accept such thing.

I must admit that some of the best memories of the two of us I have are from after his first affair. I thought we had really good marriage before but realised it was not as good as what I thought. Once we started to rebuild the marriage we were really honest with each other, open about our feelings, much more sensitive to the feelings and needs of the other one. We had that before too but it was different. I cannot explain it. It was just better (once I decided to let go of the anger and hurt).

I'm happy to hear that you feel closer to your h and letting some walls down. I have a few friends who survived infidelity and now claim their marriage is much better than before. I hope it will be the same for you!

Hi Blu,

It's about letting go of the control of our lives that we think we have. You cannot control your heart, it wants what it wants. But our mind muddles it.

We were built to love, without fear.

Bee, very nice story, it's not over yet, but finding happiness in a storm is what life is about. Everyday can't be perfect, so you need to find the perfection in it.

I am glad the book resonates. It's an unusual stance and found it released me from the requirement to forgive and also to chunk it down.

I can let go of this, I can let go of that. I can see my role in the problem. It prevented me seeing forgiveness as all or nothing thing, a big chunk to chew on.

I no longer have guilt that I can't forgive, and am not ashamed of who I am. Plus I have no reasons to forgive that which isn't mine to forgive.

Complex I know.

It makes my life and my sitch so much easier.

If you can let go of the need to forgive all of it then I think it makes living so much easier.

Hugs

V

Don't you just love it when you write a long post with all of these epiphanies and feel goods and then you go to proof read it and post, and then POOF, it just disappears?!? Lol. Sigh. Ok, well I guess I will try again later. Happy weekend, friends!

Blu

Originally Posted By: BluWave

Don't you just love it when you write a long post with all of these epiphanies and feel goods and then you go to proof read it and post, and then POOF, it just disappears?!? Lol. Sigh. Ok, well I guess I will try again later. Happy weekend, friends!

Blu

I have begun to type them up in a word document...then copy and paste...only a computer crash can do this to me know.

looking forward to reading your epiphanies, I think I have a lot to learn from your journey.

So I wrote a post yesterday about how I saw XOW and then I didn't post it. Why? Well because she really has little affect on me and my life now, so why even give her any energy at all? I like where I am at with this. She's truly pitiful and I have less anger and more feel sorry for her in some ways.

So let me tell you what I am grateful for. Now that I have taken my energy and focus off of toxic people and off of analyzing how the piecing process is going, I have freed up more space. I know it sounds cheesy but I do believe we only have so much energy and time in our lives and the more we give to one thing, the less we have to give to another.

I have made several wonderful friendships in the last couple years; I am so grateful to have these people in my life. I have been enjoying my time with them and making new traditions.

Getting ready for the holidays. Not much new to report. Work is good. Kiddos are thriving. New family members and lost someone dear to us. Such is life. I think overall I just feel better in general.

I can see how DB has paid off in other areas of my life. I feel more patience with myself and others. I realize I used to have a lot of anxiety about several things--situations, finances, etc--and that slowly facing them allows me to overcome them. More so than facing anxieties, but to know that whatever the outcome may be, things will be okay. It all happens in baby steps.

I think part of my progress is due to giving up control. I was very controlling in my M and with my family. I made the decisions because it came naturally for me, I had stronger opinions, and because my family looked to me to do it. Well, I am realizing that others need control too, even if they don't want it or think they can't handle it. I now let H and kids weigh in more and go with the flow. It's important that they feel capable and understood, even if it isn't the best way IMO.

Sometimes things take a little bit longer, or cost more, or don't work out, etc, etc. The old me would bend over backwards to make sure everything was done effectively, cost efficiently, and in ways that made sense to me. Now I've learned that it was coming at expense of the feelings and confidence of my H and kids.

I wasn't inconsiderate or selfish, we just had our different roles, and I didn't see outside of this. I like to think of this as another silver lining in my sitch. The more silver linings I can find, the more my life feels decorated and beautiful.

Blu

Quote:

but to know that whatever the outcome may be, things will be okay. It all happens in baby steps.

One of the best statements that I have ever read on here.

Agreed!!

Thank you.

I am happy to report that I have nothing to report.

So I will say again and again, to those of you in the thick of it, that it will change. I do remember the hopeless and desperate feelings. I had this constant gnawing fear that things would be that way forever. It was terrifying and I felt so out of control, like I was waiting for someone else to make it okay.

But they won't and they can't. It won't stay this way forever, and time will keep marching on. It will be okay and your life will be even better than it was before. You have to decide.

I don't think I see it this way because my H came back around. I think it is more due to time passing--life keeps happening-- and more so than that, I changed my perspective somewhere along the way. I decided that I want to be happy and that I want to be okay in life no matter who is with me, or leaves me, or comes back or never does....

When you get to that place, and you will, you can make that decision too.

I just wanted to add some comfort in your day, if only even a little bit. I hope all of you will come back some day and tell me, "you know what, you were right, it is okay and it will be better than before."

Blu

Thank you...it does add comfort. :-)

Hi Blu

Read you story and it has given me hope, my W left me for OM for 6 weeks and cameback, they had a EA/PA for 8 weeks in total.

She has now been NC and back for 6 months, I struggling to keep myself together stil, nothing seems to make this easier, do you have any advice?

Hi blueboy,

I'll read up on your sitch to get more details. My initial thought is that 6 months is a short amount of time. I am at 20 months of piecing and it is just finally getting easier! I am sure we all have a different timeline, but I tend to think time in and of itself is needed. Can you think back to other hardships in your life and try and remember how you felt when it first happened? Then a year later? And then 5? Surely the feelings eased up with each passing year.

My one bit of advice is that the process cannot be rushed. You have to feel safe and comfortable with it and accept that most days it is hard. Even if you are "doing everything," you owe it to yourself to experience the bad feelings. I can recall in the early months, and up until 18 months, getting a trigger and the emotions that came flooding back. There were times I would be driving home from work and just thinking about something could set me off and mentally throw me back in time. Behind the steering wheel, hot tears would flow, I was overwhelmed with rage and sadness, and as soon as I saw H, I might announce "this will never work!" or "I will never see past this!"

The thing is, I really felt that way. I tried to numb the pain and I developed some good and bad habits to cope, but really I had to just feel terrible at times. Somehow I had to keep putting my head over heart and just decide that this IS what I want in my life, even if it doesn't feel right or good at all. Just like DB, it is not intuitive.

I still have triggers, but they don't have much affect on me or my mood. I think it has also helped in my sitch that H has been patient, transparent, and has really made the changes he needed to make. I hate to admit it, but there have been some postive changes that we both have made that we may not have if this didn't happen.

Not sure if this helps at all, but I do believe things always get better in time. As hard as it is now, there can also be many silver linings if you allow yourself to see them. Go easy on yourself. This is really hard stuff!

Blu

Thank you BlueWave, this was tremendously helpful.

Bluwave,

I have spent hours reading your posts and want to say thank you for sharing your insight. Unfortunately, I'm still in the early stages and am having a hard time with the letting go. We are still under the same roof with kids but my W is in her fifth year of MLC and is convinced that we have to D in order for her to become the person she Is meant to be. She is infatuated with a 22yo man who works for her and says she loves him...and me. I don't think I can stop the D but want to minimize the damage to the kids (elementary, middle and high school). How did you do that while your H was being wayward?

Originally Posted By: PsySara

Thank you BlueWave, this was tremendously helpful.

Hi Sara. I don't post often, but I do follow your thread. I feel for you, I really do. You are an amazing woman and I hope that things settle down soon and you can start to feel more positive about your future.

I wish I could offer you more encouragement! I do tend to believe that what doesn't kill us makes us stronger. You have certainly been through so much agony, and you continue to challenge yourself to keep growing and learning. I admire you! I think one day you will look back on this and see that you gained something in life you might otherwise not have.

(((Sara)))

Originally Posted By: Gordie

Bluwave,

I have spent hours reading your posts and want to say thank you for sharing your insight. Unfortunately, I'm still in the early stages and am having a hard time with the letting go. We are still under the same roof with kids but my W is in her fifth year of MLC and is convinced that we have to D in order for her to become the person she Is meant to be. She is infatuated with a 22yo man who works for her and says she loves him...and me. I don't think I can stop the D but want to minimize the damage to the kids (elementary, middle and high school). How did you do that while your H was being wayward?

Hi Gordie. Thanks for stopping by. I will certainly check out your threads. So your W is in her 5th year of MLC? I can't imagine how hard that must be for you. I am very sorry.

I tend to be direct in my communication, and perhaps too generous with 2*4s, but I can't help but wonder if this is less of a MLC and more that she has just changed? People do change, unfortunately not always for the better.

Back to your question of minimizing the damage to my kids. That's a hard one, because it was painful for them. I wish I had done a better job. If I could go back in time, I would have sheltered them much more. There is the obvious stuff of not arguing in front of them, not having D or R talks with them or burdening them with adult problems, and then of course not bad mouthing your S to them. I think what hurt my kids more than that was having to see me so vulnerable, frail, and well, bitter.

It seems hard to give advice too because kids of different ages and maturities handle these situations differently. For the younger kids I think they need consistency, clarity in what to expect, and more frequent visitation exchanges if possible. Being cordial in front of them is super important, as they deserve to feel safe and know that things are ok. That was very hard! My H wanted to check in, email photos, and be friendly for the kids sake and meanwhile I was so infuriated and hurt by his active A.

For older kids, well you don't want to overdo it with positivity. I think they need to know that things are changing, it's going to be hard, but we both love them and we will all get though this. If we paint too much of a positive picture, we might overlook their fears and feelings. One of my kids was anxious and struggling, and so we found a good child therapist to help. She needed this safe person to share her feelings with.

My oldest (now an adult) did not do well and really went downhill during that time. Long story. She wanted to know everything and she wanted to protect me. I had to find a balance between being honest and open with her, but also creating healthy boundaries and not allowing for too much "friendship."

I could talk/post about this for hours. Its so hard! And there is really no avoiding that some damage will be done. Here's the thing tho, life is hard and people are resilient. Look around the world and what's happening--it's just incredible what people go through, yet we all have this resiliency that we never knew we had.

So maybe instead of trying to protect our kids from the trauma of D, we can serve them better by handing them the tools to navigate through it. Be present, listen to their individual needs, don't sugar coat anything, and lead by example. If they see that you are okay and working towards being okay, then I think they will fair well too.

Hope that helps.

Blu

BluWave....what you said about giving up control really struck a cord with me. In my job I have to be in control of a lot of different decisions and unfortunately that carried over into my married life. I'm sure it did not make my H feel secure. And what I know see is that my way was not always the best way, even though I thought it was the right way.

Thank you so much for opening up and being honest about your struggles in your marriage. Like you my husband had an affair. I kicked him out the day I learned of it....that was 13 months ago. He only made one short lived attempt to reconcile, which obviously did not work. But what I have since learned was that was not a genuine attempt on his part and he was pressured into reconciling by me. I have since learned that never works. We both have a lot of work to do on ourselves before that can happen.

Now I am focusing on me and trying to make myself a better person. This is very hard, but reading your posts does give me hope.

Originally Posted By: BluWave

Hi Gordie. Thanks for stopping by. I will certainly check out your threads. So your W is in her 5th year of MLC? I can't imagine how hard that must be for you. I am very sorry.

I tend to be direct in my communication, and perhaps too generous with 2*4s, but I can't help but wonder if this is less of a MLC and more that she has just changed? People do change, unfortunately not always for the better.

Blu--thank you so much for the 2x4 and the comments about the kids; I don't know if this is MLC or just a permanent change, I really don't, but her behavior checks more of the MLC boxes than just a WAW or WW, so the MLC advice has been the most relevant to me. Either way, it seems the only healthy path forward is to detach and let go...so much easier said than done.

Originally Posted By: skm0619

BluWave....what you said about giving up control really struck a cord with me. In my job I have to be in control of a lot of different decisions and unfortunately that carried over into my married life. I'm sure it did not make my H feel secure. And what I know see is that my way was not always the best way, even though I thought it was the right way.

Thank you so much for opening up and being honest about your struggles in your marriage. Like you my husband had an affair. I kicked him out the day I learned of it....that was 13 months ago. He only made one short lived attempt to reconcile, which obviously did not work. But what I have since learned was that was not a genuine attempt on his part and he was pressured into reconciling by me. I have since learned that never works. We both have a lot of work to do on ourselves before that can happen.

Now I am focusing on me and trying to make myself a better person. This is very hard, but reading your posts does give me hope.

Hi skm, Thanks for stopping by. I'm glad that my posts are helpful. When I was going through my separation, it was comforting to read here and know that I wasn't alone.

Giving up control is hard! I have always been a controlling type person and the decision maker--at work and at home--and I know this resulted in a negative impact on my M. My H is submissive, had the Nice Guy Syndrome, and when things got hard, he didn't stand up for himself, he grew to resent me. I think we are now learning to break those habits.

If your WH is making short lived attempts, that may indicate that he has regrets or is second guessing himself. He may eventually come around. My H had several half hearted attempts, was full of guilt, and admits now it felt wrong the entire time he was with OW. The thing is, these things take time. It can take months or even years for relationships to sort out.

So if you are a type A person or someone that is comfortable being in control, having patience can be especially hard! Try and go easy on yourself, forgive yourself often, and know that in time these things work out as they should. One thing that helped me was giving myself permission to put all the bad freelings aside, even if only for a couple hours, and enjoy moments and time with other people. Overtime it gets easier.

Best of luck and happy holidays!
Blu

Originally Posted By: Gordie

Originally Posted By: BluWave

Hi Gordie. Thanks for stopping by. I will certainly check out your threads. So your W is in her 5th year of MLC? I can't imagine how hard that must be for you. I am very sorry.

I tend to be direct in my communication, and perhaps too generous with 2*4s, but I can't help but wonder if this is less of a MLC and more that she has just changed? People do change, unfortunately not always for the better.

Blu--thank you so much for the 2x4 and the comments about the kids; I don't know if this is MLC or just a permanent change, I really don't, but her behavior checks more of the MLC boxes than just a WAW or WW, so the MLC advice has been the most relevant to me. Either way, it seems the only healthy path forward is to detach and let go...so much easier said than done.

Hi Gordie,

It is hard. This may be the hardest thing you ever do! ... However, as with any other obstacle in life, the more work put in, the greater the reward at the end. You can do this, you can detach, but you can't force it. The more you allow yourself to focus on other things and relationships, overtime it will get easier. You may even find that these other more positive things and people, do bring you more happiness.

We teach others how to treat us. So stand up tall, treat yourself with kindness, and don't ever settle for less than you deserve. You will attract others that see you the same way, but not until you can learn to see yourself this way first!

As I started to feel better about myself, and H saw that I wouldn't put up with being treated poorly, he realized he needed to get his act together or he would be the one missing out!

Happy holidays!
Blu

Hi,
I am new, this is my first post. I have been reading the posts for a while. My H left me after a fight this past June and never came back. He would not speak to me, communicate with me in any way at all. I of course, did all the wrong things out of pure despair, anger and heart wrenching loss. I called, texted, emailed a lot and at times got very angry and said some terrible things that I have apologized for and regret. My H and I have been married over 10 years, he is the love of my life. He blindsided me with divorce papers in July and they were full of lies, terrible things and all of his resentments. I continued my obsessive emailing etc. because he left us with nothing, he would not talk to me at all and I had know idea what to think. There was no OW or EA and I am pretty confident of that. My son has seen him and he said no definitely not. He forced my son and I out of our apartment because he stopped paying our rent, knowing I could not afford it alone, my son and I have basically been homeless sense then. My H lives in a motel and has destroyed my life. Over Halloween weekend I was staying in my car with my son. We lost the key to my car and I had to call him because he had the spare key. He, as ususal, would not answer so I left him a message to which he replied and eventually came to help us. I should also mention, my H was able to get a temporary restraining order against me for no contact, he came to help us, he paid for a hotel room for us, took us to dinner, acted like we were a family, the whole time he seemed very cold though. He also lost his job that following Mon so he was stressed and whenever he got the chance he tried to talk to me about our relationship, the divorce proceedings etc. The short of it was that he was hoping I would settle with him ( I think ) on his terms or come to some agreement with him. He never said so but that is what It felt like. After that weekend, I never heard from again and he continues to ignore me and he ignores my son who he parented for ten years as if my S was his own. My S has suffered so badly from all of this and My H does not seem to care at all. I know I am leaving something out. I love him so much. We had a great marriage until we moved to CA then we started having some financial problems, our fighiing escalated, he blames me for eveything wrong in our marriage, he says I am the reason he behaves like he does. When we fight he gets very ugly and sometimes very aggressive ( breaking things, throwing things etc. ) he will stop at nothing to hurt me. I don't know how divorce busting could work for us, we loved each other so much. there was a chemistry that was magical at one time, he cannot let go of anything, he holds grudges and has deep resentments. I don't want to get divorced, right now nothing is happening with our divorce, his bully attorney threatened and harrassed my attorney until he finally quit, I was not done right in my divorce proceedings thus far, but now I don't know anything, nothing seems to be going on. I am sure because of money, I don;t think he really thought this thru, his decision seemed impulsive. We had just rented another apartment for a year, we were making future plans and big ones I don;t understand, I can't seem to move on but he refuses to talk to me, he seems to have no feelings for me at all, Is this hopeless? Has anyone ever comeback from something like this? please, I need help. thank you

Blu....thanks for the words of advice and support.

I know that since all of this has happened I have really tried to give up control and what I have found was that things usually do work out alright...it's not easy to do...but I'm going to continue to let go of things. Having patience has not been one of my better qualities, but I'm working on that.

If my husband has regret I have not seen it in a very long time. When I first found out about the affair he showed shame and guilt, but I never really saw what I thought was regret or remorse. I have a very strong personality and he, like your husband, has the Nice Guy Syndrome, never one to rock the boat. He likes to be a people pleaser, and will go out of his way to help people, but unfortunately those people are usually women. Unfortunately he has a lot of women clients, so if one of them mentions something he is the first one to offer help, but he won't help me with things around my (our) house?

I think he doesn't really have a clue how he is feeling, or what he is supposed to feel. His father never showed emotion when he was growing up, and when all of this came out his parents didn't want to talk about it with him when he brought it up, and his dad told him that he doesn't like to show emotion. Their only priority with him in all of this is to help him "move on" but that doesn't mean deal with things. They are not a family that deals with emotional issues at all. They are British

When we were communicating he said he felt "numb" a lot. I also think he might be depressed, even though he would never admit it because in his mind that is a negative thing and he likes to say he is a positive person. He mentioned his doctor told him he needs to start taking better care of himself. His only priority in life is to work out every day.

I can't worry about him and need to focus on me ..... which is hard, but I'm learning.

Judela you should start your own thread so we can give you your own advice and not steal this one.

Originally Posted By: judela

Hi,
I am new, this is my first post. I have been reading the posts for a while. My H left me after a fight this past June and never came back. He would not speak to me, communicate with me in any way at all. I of course, did all the wrong things out of pure despair, anger and heart wrenching loss. I called, texted, emailed a lot and at times got very angry and said some terrible things that I have apologized for and regret. My H and I have been married over 10 years, he is the love of my life. He blindsided me with divorce papers in July and they were full of lies, terrible things and all of his resentments. I continued my obsessive emailing etc. because he left us with nothing, he would not talk to me at all and I had know idea what to think. There was no OW or EA and I am pretty confident of that. My son has seen him and he said no definitely not. He forced my son and I out of our apartment because he stopped paying our rent, knowing I could not afford it alone, my son and I have basically been homeless sense then. My H lives in a motel and has destroyed my life. Over Halloween weekend I was staying in my car with my son. We lost the key to my car and I had to call him because he had the spare key. He, as ususal, would not answer so I left him a message to which he replied and eventually came to help us. I should also mention, my H was able to get a temporary restraining order against me for no contact, he came to help us, he paid for a hotel room for us, took us to dinner, acted like we were a family, the whole time he seemed very cold though. He also lost his job that following Mon so he was stressed and whenever he got the chance he tried to talk to me about our relationship, the divorce proceedings etc. The short of it was that he was hoping I would settle with him ( I think ) on his terms or come to some agreement with him. He never said so but that is what It felt like. After that weekend, I never heard from again and he continues to ignore me and he ignores my son who he parented for ten years as if my S was his own. My S has suffered so badly from all of this and My H does not seem to care at all. I know I am leaving something out. I love him so much. We had a great marriage until we moved to CA then we started having some financial problems, our fighiing escalated, he blames me for eveything wrong in our marriage, he says I am the reason he behaves like he does. When we fight he gets very ugly and sometimes very aggressive ( breaking things, throwing things etc. ) he will stop at nothing to hurt me. I don't know how divorce busting could work for us, we loved each other so much. there was a chemistry that was magical at one time, he cannot let go of anything, he holds grudges and has deep resentments. I don't want to get divorced, right now nothing is happening with our divorce, his bully attorney threatened and harrassed my attorney until he finally quit, I was not done right in my divorce proceedings thus far, but now I don't know anything, nothing seems to be going on. I am sure because of money, I don;t think he really thought this thru, his decision seemed impulsive. We had just rented another apartment for a year, we were making future plans and big ones I don;t understand, I can't seem to move on but he refuses to talk to me, he seems to have no feelings for me at all, Is this hopeless? Has anyone ever comeback from something like this? please, I need help. thank you

judela, my dear, this breaks my heart to read. Thank you for having the courage to share. I hope you will take Cadet's advice and start your own thread so others can offer you support and feedback. I alone cannot help you, but I can't tell you that you have a very unhealthy attachment to your H. This needs to be addressed first.

In your post you say how much you love him, that he is the love of your life, and that you are desperate to get him back. You also explain that he mistreats you, is abusive, and has abandoned you and your son, even allowing you to be homeless. This is very, very troublesome.

I want you to understand first and foremost that this is unhealthy, codependent, and even a dangerous situation for you and your child. Healthy love is not based on fear and needing the other person to just be okay in life. Unfortunately these patterns are often deepseeded and began in childhood and so they cannot simply be turned off.

The first thing I want you to do is gather reading and materials on breaking codependency and codependency no more. Right now saving your marriage is NOT the priority, because you are in a very unhealthy state of mind. I am worried about you and your son. Your H coming back will not fix this, it's only a temporary crutch.

I also want you to get some counseling so that an expert can help you through this. This is very difficult and takes a long time to heal from, especially as you are caring for a child too. Please, please start a thread so others can weigh in and offer you support.

As hard as this is and as desperate and low as you feel, I want to assure you that your H has not caused all of this. Unhealthy attachments are complicated and the patterns start far before you meet your partner, often without your awareness. So as terribly painful as this is now, your H leaving has given you the opportunity to identify this and start looking inward. If you can get support and begin to heal, THIS will serve you far more in life than this man coming back.

Please take care of yourself and stop focusing on him and what he is doing in the mean time. Him leaving is a blessing in disguise. You cannot see this now, but you will in time. Healthy love is not based on fear and desperation, it is a choice that two people make and it is based on mutual respect and friendship. You deserve that and your child deserves to see this example.

Keep posting, we are here for you! Big hugs!!!
Blu

Hi skm. Ahhh, I just peaked at your thread, and I think we have more in common than we may both know! What I can say is that people in certain professions are notorious for unhealthy relationships, and not just with poeole, but with substances as well. I try to be acutely aware of that now. I hope that my awareness is/will lead to better life decisions in general.

I also had to take a step back from work for a short time during my separation. I felt weak and unfocused, and one error could have been the difference between life or death, and that is a great responsibility that I could not shoulder. What i realized is that I could change my perspective and allow myself to be absorbed in my work and let it be a distraction from my life.

I have now gotten very good at keeping work and my personal life completely seperate--I can switch in on and off like a light switch--and this has served me well in life. In this line of work, you simply have to let it roll off your back. So as hard as this is now, if you can create that separation, it will also serve you later.

Of course there are always going to be those patients and families that touch us deeply, but it's okay to feel it and grow, but leave it at work. And when you are at work, it's okay to put H on the back burner. It may become a welcomed distraction. This s one more silver lining I have personally found in my sitch.

Blu

Wow, talking about a warm welcome.. thank you Cadet. I am so new here that was my very first post and I had absolutely no idea where it was going to show up. But thank you for welcoming me and helping me out so I would know.

I honestly, did not try to steal your thread. I don't know what I am doing. I did not know how this would show up. I am going to delete it though. little intimidated by this place. Thank you Blu.

Originally Posted By: judela

I honestly, did not try to steal your thread. I don't know what I am doing. I did not know how this would show up. I am going to delete it though. little intimidated by this place. Thank you Blu.

Welcome to the board sweetie, I am sure Cadet will give you his normal welcome thread once you start your own thread

here is how to do it.

Originally Posted By: Cadet

How to start a thread

I will use what Job wrote

First Click on Newcomers then:

Originally Posted By: job

Go to the top of the screen and there is a new topic box on the left hand side. Click on it and then you will open the window to create a new subject as well as a posting. It's the same way that you created this thread.

Plus How to link your threads

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2588047#Post2588047

You can not delete your own posts here once they are on the board.
Sorry you feel intimidated but it is really a great place to get advice.

((((HUGS))))) to you.

judela, you can post here as much and as often as you like! The benefit of starting your own thread is that you will get more responses.

Please DO NOT feel intimidated! We have all been in this difficult, vulnerable place, and most of the posters are still there right now.

I have reconciled my Marriage, but I am by no means an expert ;-) We come here, we open up and share, and then we know that we will get healthy doses of tough love! Sometimes it is hard to get whacked over the head with a 2*4, but we have to remind ourselves that we all have the intention of being honest and telling others what we think they need.

Please keep posting! If you can open up and reach out, others will come and guide you.

Hugs!
Blu

Blu....I am a nurse practitioner in an adult ICU. My job requires me to do life saving procedures on people often, make quick decisions and not hesitate when doing that. What I found was that I was starting to not able to concentrate at work and was second guessing myself, so that was when I knew something had to change. I am so fortunate to have the group of physicians I work with because they have allowed me to take this time away and regroup. The crazy thing is that they are all male and have been the most supportive of me during this difficult time.

I'm hoping that I can get back to the old me soon. The one who had confidence in herself both personally and professionally, the one who knew who she was, what she wanted and needed in life. The loving person that people want to be around. I don't want to be sad anymore.....this is NOT who I am.

Blu ~ I think you are a lifeline for a lot of people because you reclaimed your marriage, so to speak, but also perhaps blinders for others.

It's just a fact of life that many times, a partner is deficient morally, spiritually, and many other areas. And without said partner who is willing to fix their deficiencies on their own, it isn't gonna happen.

So, just injecting a bit of common sense here.

skm, as I thought, we have a LOT in common! There are certain details about my life I do not share for some anonymity (details about work, kids, my location, etc), but I certainly don't go out of my way to hide it.

I am glad that you were able to take some time off and regroup. It is great that your coworkers are understanding and supportive! As you return to work, perhaps you can shift your perspective and view work as a welcomed distraction. I was able to do this and it worked very well for me. I find it still benefits me when things feel crummy.

I recall being in the thick of it and struggling, and we had a pt very unexpectedly recover, and after extubation the first words out of his mouth were, "where is my wife?" I just about lost it! Had to hold back tears, excuse myself to the bathroom, splash on some cold water, and then I was good to go :-)

You will find yourself again. I know you will. There was such a long time that I felt lost and that I had lost myself. I couldn't imagine then that things would ever get better. I kept marching forward, I allowed myself to shelf the bad feelings (even if only for a couple hours) and enjoy life and other Rs, and over time it did get easier. Now I can see that it was all in my head and no one else actually DID this to me--not H, not OW, and not really anyone in my past--and so no one else could fix it either. So if you want things to get better, and if you believe somehow that it will, then keep putting one foot in front of the other, and over time it WILL get better.

Take care of you. Tell yourself that every day. Treat yourself as your most precious patient. Because you are. And because no one else ever will. That's the silver lining here. I will always be okay, no matter who comes and goes from my life, and I get that now.

Blu

Bippy. Thank you for this. You are correct--we cannot control nor fix anyone else. All we can do is control and fix ourselves, learn to love ourselves again, and learn to believe that everything will be okay. People are resilient, we are resilient.

As we can adopt these principals into our lives, we will attract quality people that understand them too. What the LBS cannot see in their own fog is that they (their healthy and balanced self) really don't want a person that could cheat, abandon, and hurt them. They want a person that loves them, respects them, and is willing to do the hard work so save the M as well.

So there is only one option. Let go. Let go of people that our toxic. Let them back in your life when they can show you the love and commitment you deserve.

Blu

[/b]

Originally Posted By: BluWave

As we can adopt these principals into our lives, we will attract quality people that understand them too. What the LBS cannot see in their own fog is that they (their healthy and balanced self) really don't want a person that could cheat, abandon, and hurt them. They want a person that loves them, respects them, and is willing to do the hard work so save the M as well.

So there is only one option. Let go. Let go of people that our toxic. Let them back in your life when they can show you the love and commitment you deserve.

Blu

[b]So, as your title says, the only way we will heal ourselves is to detach and let go of our unrecognizable spouse? I guess that is the hardest part for us that said we would never leave our spouse/family. We, the LBS, are the ones that took our vows totally serious and would do anything in our power to keep our families together.

So the letting go of them is totally 180* of what is right and just to us and our values. I guess we need to suck it up and just do what works...right?

After a relatively good holiday weekend with her around, I can see how good things could be, but I have no real idea of how she views things. I guess letting go would mean that I wouldn't have an idea unless she decides to tell me in the future.

"So, as your title says, the only way we will heal ourselves is to detach and let go of our unrecognizable spouse? I guess that is the hardest part for us that said we would never leave our spouse/family. We, the LBS, are the ones that took our vows totally serious and would do anything in our power to keep our families together."

Correct, that is what I am saying. And yes, it is the hardest part. I know first hand and I struggled with this for a long time. The thing is, no one else will heal us, so we have to heal ourselves. This also leads us to being a stronger person and making better decisions about the marriage moving forward.

"So the letting go of them is totally 180* of what is right and just to us and our values. I guess we need to suck it up and just do what works...right?"

It is a 180. That is why DB is not intuitive. Holding on tight to someone that wants to be let go of, will only make them fight harder. It doesn't work, it does the opposite. If you want your M to work and your S is trying to leave, then you must give them the freedom to go. Let them go. Become that person that only a fool would leave. You will be stronger and happier. The hope is that you will eventually attract them back. So letting go and detaching serves more than one purpose. But you can't fake it to win them back, you have to let go.

"After a relatively good holiday weekend with her around, I can see how good things could be, but I have no real idea of how she views things. I guess letting go would mean that I wouldn't have an idea unless she decides to tell me in the future."

The thing is, if she decides to come back and work on the M, you will know. If a person is committed to you and the M, they will let it be known. They will come to you. They will show you the signs and you will feel it. When my H started coming back around, he did not even need to announce it. I could tell, and I could feel the difference.

Originally Posted By: BluWave

The thing is, if she decides to come back and work on the M, you will know. If a person is committed to you and the M, they will let it be known. They will come to you. They will show you the signs and you will feel it. When my H started coming back around, he did not even need to announce it. I could tell, and I could feel the difference.

I guess that is the tough part. I felt her wanting that closeness this weekend (at least she was a bit different than she has been), but that being said...she walked out the door Christmas Eve to go back to her condo. She had asked my oldest (19) if he thought she should stay Christmas Eve...he told her that it probably wasn't a good idea. He seems to be concerned about her, yet worried about me. He is very intuitive.

She has only been out of the house for about 2 months and I miss her dearly. Maybe I am just feeling what I want to feel. I don't know. I do know that I am trying to make sense of something that makes no sense. I will work hard on letting her go emotionally, as she has made the physical decision her self.

SBJ - I remember the 2 month mark well. It was a very dark time for me and coincided with our anniversary, just like yours coincides with Christmas. I was actually suicidal at one point in that month. Dark times indeed.

You are right - this makes no sense at all. Trying to understand what she is thinking or going through will only drive you mad - I have postcards from my own journey down that particular cheeseless tunnel.

Focus on yourself, your kids and just take it one day at a time and you will get through this.

I agree with you Andrew. You cannot mindread, know what they are thinking, know what they are wanting, or hang on to shreds of hope. That doesn't work and it is wasted energy. It also keeps the focus on them and their actions, when the goal of DB is to take the focus off of them and take care of the self.

This sounds harsh, but people are not attracted to those that are needy, desperate, or hanging on to them. We are generally attracted to those that are confident, have their own hobbies/goals, and those that are strong. So in the LBS fog, we don't realize that are desperation/neediness further pushes our spouse away.

SBJ, there may be times that your W misses you, wants to spend time with you, or even opens up about her feelings for you. She may offer you hope and say things that are in conflict. Perhaps this is confusing you, especially if she is feeling lonely or guilty around the holidays. Or perhaps she is being clear and you just don't want to see the truth. Even if she does have moments of doubt, that should not change your course of action.

The thing is, you don't know. You have to go by all that you do know and that is that she is telling you she wants out and she is moving out. If things change, then you can reevaluate. If you keep looking for shreds of hope or hanging onto her actions, you are not able to move forward and get stronger. Unfortunately, his can take a very long time, and sometimes years.

Blu

BluWave...I understand how I could totally see what I want to see, but I am working on only seeing what is truly happening. I keep her in my thoughts and prayers daily. I have to see her and speak with her several times a week due to work and the kids, so it is hard to go totally dark on her. She has already moved out and already filed, so I know what she wants...I just don't understand why totally. What she has said totally fits the MLC script and she has totally re-written our 25 year relationship. I am at a total loss.

The holiday did throw me off since she wanted me around and wanted to be around so much, but once the parties ended, she was gone again. There were so many little things that made things seem like before BD...things even noticed by extended family. Hopes up and now back down to reality. Now I need to get back to working on me...spiritually, physically, and emotionally!!!

SBJ, I am glad that you recognize it't time to work on you! It is the hardest thing to do, but ultimately will serve you the most in the long run.

In terms of if she is having a MLC, or not, well I don't think that should change what you do. Honestly, I think sometimes the LBS finds comfort in categorizing the S as having a MLC, because it hangs on to some hope that it is not a permanent change--they may come back around or they may snap out of it--when really, we don't know what/why. We may never.

So, with the little that I know about you, I do think you are allowing her to cake eat and so she doesn't feel the loss of you. If she has moved out and is filing for D, then why are you spending the holidays with her and having family time?

I am not being condescending, but I am truly wondering. If she finalized the D and has an OM, then would you still want this family time? Or are you only having family time in hopes that she will come back around? I think you should really think about this!

OK. I am going to copy/paste this in your thread so we can continue convo there.

Blu

Hey BluWave,

I find your story an inspiration, not because your WH came back but because how honest you have been about your struggle to detach and how it prolonged your ability to heal. This week has been a bit of a light bulb moment for me. I had to take a long, hard look at myself in the mirror and face the demon of my fear and rage of being alone. My enmeshment with WH, my codependence has fed that fear and turned me into a weak and needy woman. That was NOT the person my WH met. More importantly tht is NOT the person I want to remain.

So I went back to the books and started to read about codependent behavior, narcissistic people (WH has a lot of traits) and also some other self help sites. IT has been eye opening. I am now reclaiming myself and have come to the conclusion I don't want WH back unconditionally. If he decides to come back to the marriage then there will be conditions and boundaries. If he continues to be wayward then I need to cut him loose and to thin own self be true. Your words and wisdom have been very helpful getting me to this point. Thank you.

Blu......I am on open book, but totally understand the need for anonymity.

I hope you are right when you say "you will find yourself again." Today has been a day of crazy emotions for me. Woke up with a headache (which I do often), started the morning off crying as I lay in bed thinking "is this really my life?"
Ended up talking to one of my friends who asked if I could look after her 7 month old twin tomorrow, so that is something to look forward to. Then was looking through a drawer and found my wedding rings and started to cry again. Then ended the day having to take my dog to the vet only to find out he needs surgery

So I have gone from crying, to something to look forward to back to sadness. This has unfortunately has become the norm for me. I've been dealing with these crazy emotions for over a year and they definitely make me feel like crap.

I just wonder how much more of this can a person deal with. To say that we as the LBS have gotten the crap end of the deal is putting it mildly. I want to get to a point where I don't have anger towards my H when I think about what he has done. He has moved on with his life and it is like the last 11 years never happened. That is something I will NEVER understand.

SBJ.......when I read your post it made me cry cause I feel your pain. When you said "maybe I am just feeling what I want to feel. I don't know. I do know that I am trying to make sense of something that makes no sense. I will work hard on letting her go emotionally, as she has made the physical decision her self"

I have been separated for over a year and have had minimal contact from my H and yet I still hang on. I don't really know why but I do. I guess like you I am hoping that something I say or do will click in their mind and they will "get it"..... but as so many on here are saying we do not have any control over them. They have to figure it out for themselves. It is so hard to let them go. It doesn't seem right. For me I really don't know how long I can continue to do this and to hang on for.

skm0619...trust me when I say that I am not one to want to make a woman cry...I truly hope that we are all able to help one another get thru these trying times.

The sad thing is that we know how we feel about our spouses, but they are the ones that are confused. We know what we want out of our marriages, but they are the ones that are confused. Nothing we do or say will have an affect on their confusion. This is something that they will have to figure out on their own. We are just collateral damage in all of this. That is why "WE" need to do the work for ourselves to be the type of man or woman that a spouse would be crazy to leave.

As for how long you can continue to do this and hang on for...only you can answer that, but I hope when that day comes we will find peace in our decision. All of the fine folks here are making this process much easier for me and I hope things ease up for you as well.

Just dropping by to say hello to my dear friend Blu.

You are doing a great job of sharing that which you have learned with others.

I would like to ask how you are doing.
What are some of your New Years goals.
I wanted to chat with you a bit as you always provide intriguing conversations for me.

Sara, thank you. You are too kind. I am glad that my perspective is helpful. I am trying to challenge myself to be more openminded to the differences in others' sitches. I recognize that the specific sequence of events is different for all of us. My H did a sharp turnaround, however I don't think it was due to what I did, only partly when I finally let go. I do think that my lack of DB skills did prolong my sitch. Knowing what I know now, if I had implemented DB from day one, I don't think he wouldn't have ever left for OW.

I am always impressed with the resiliency of some of the posters, yourself included! I didn't have that and I developed some very unhealthy coping mechs. Of course I would like to go back and reassure my wounded self that I would be okay. I cannot. So I think coming here and supporting others has become therapeutic for me. I am also finally able to look inward and 180, GAL, etc because I am finally recovering from the trauma of it all. Some of it just needed time. I also am an emotional/type A/controlling person, and so letting go of the outcome and just living has been my greatest challenge.

Sara, I really admire you. We don't often discuss your children, but that you are going through this with 3 young children makes your situation more unique and especially challenging! I just know one day you will look back on this and think, oh my, how did I do that!?! The thing is, you don't have to "do it all." You are perfectly okay the way you are. I was so glad to read in your thread that you can identify what makes you happy. I often wish I was the lady who went to the gym every day, cooked amazing meals every night, and finished a great book every week. But that is not me. And what matters most is that I am learning to be okay with that.

Blu

Originally Posted By: skm0619

SBJ.......when I read your post it made me cry cause I feel your pain. When you said "maybe I am just feeling what I want to feel. I don't know. I do know that I am trying to make sense of something that makes no sense. I will work hard on letting her go emotionally, as she has made the physical decision her self"

I have been separated for over a year and have had minimal contact from my H and yet I still hang on. I don't really know why but I do. I guess like you I am hoping that something I say or do will click in their mind and they will "get it"..... but as so many on here are saying we do not have any control over them. They have to figure it out for themselves. It is so hard to let them go. It doesn't seem right. For me I really don't know how long I can continue to do this and to hang on for.

Skm, my dear, I am so sorry. It's terribly painful! I hung on for a long time too. We had frequent contact because of the kids and that was hard too. Every time I saw him, it was a reminder that we were not together AND that he was with OW. It made me physically sick and I began abusing substances, was terribly underweight and became this shell of a person. It has taken me the last couple years to recover from the trauma. But I did, and I am, and you will too. I know that because you are here and you are trying.

The thing is, you can't force yourself to let go or detach. Like dieting, the more you have it (food) on the brain, the more you focus on it and the more attached you become. Forcing any detachment becomes a conundrum. The issue is that the attachment is now one sided and therefore pathological for you and causing you more pain. The key moving forward is to allow yourself to develop more, and new, healthy attachments to other things and people. Replace the negative with something postive. I promise it will get better slowly in time. That is why I believe in the DB philosophy--the only remedy is self love, GAL, and 180.

Can you think back to other times in your life that were hard and felt hopeless? Then think about how your perspective of the same thing was a couple months later and then several years later, and how do you feel about it now?

This may seem impossible now, but in time, it will get better and you will get stronger. You just need to get to the place where you can believe.

Blu

SH, my friend, hello! I have been meaning to check in with you! One of my NY goals should be to spend less time on the computer, including here, but it's not currently a priority. Maybe next year. Ha!

I do have a few goals actually. I fluctuate between thinking NY resolutions are dumb (and refuse altogether) to trying to be unique and edgy with them. This year I will go against my own grain and work towards the three most common and most boring NY goals ... wait for it ....

1. Make more money.
Who doesn't like that? I do have some opportunities and ideas at work, and I have been putting them off, so I think it's time I go for it.

2. Get in better shape.
Who doesn't want to look better naked, right? I know I need to get more healthy tho and so I am rallying some ideas there too.

3. Be more domestic and enjoy more things.
I've got to leave some room for negotiating and generic goals right?
I would like to do more cooking, read some good books, watch some good movies, and try new things.

I think I have already succeeded in the GAL department. I have nurtured several friendships and have become good at making time for them, going out, and enjoy my alone time. Now it's time to mix it up!

Did anyone notice that H is not mentioned anywhere here? This is not intentional, I swear, I just noticed. It's just the way it is tho. Im okay with that. A couple years ago, my M is all I thought about and all I focused on, and I don't want to be that woman. Not at all. I want to be okay with whoever comes and goes from my life. I feel proud to say that I have reached that point.

So I read this cheesy article on FB yesterday about Rs. It states that there are six features that are toxic to a R or M. Each was described and had examples. Light bulb on! I have no idea the validity of this article, but I do know that I am guilty of doing most of them and some I still do. So that was an eye opener. It was everything from being passive aggressive and withholding affection to saying things that are hurtful as a way of asserting control. So yeah, I have a lot of work to do on my M too!

We live, we learn. I have a lot of changes to make too. We will all get there in time.

Blu

I think those look more like wishes than goals or resolutions.

And those who like skinny dipping will automatically want to look great in buff coloured pjs.

V

Hey Blu, sounds like things are going great for you.

Just wanted to wish you lots of love and happiness in 2017!

Ms V, hmmm, perhaps you can help me out and revise them? I think of goals as things in my control, whereas a "wish" I can only wait and hope would happen.

1. I can control making changes at work that lead to additional pay--take on more responsibilities, more hours, and I am working towards an additional credential.

2. My health has been its own roller coaster, which I can change if I commit to it. I know it's time I get into better shape again, increase cardio workout and muscle mass, and decrease empty calories/sugar/alcohol. I look better when I do this and I feel better too.

3. I can diversify my enjoyable activities, which I believe will be good for me. I feel happy when I change it up. Often for fun, I meet up with friends, have a few drinks, go out to eat, or hang out with family/friends and the kids. There is so much more I could be doing and enjoying, but I need to challenge myself to arrange and go. I love hiking, a good film, a good book, just playing with my kids and being more present, however I need to carve this time out and stick to it!

Coly, happy NY to you as well, my friend! Hugs!

Blu

Blu,

Perhaps V is pointing towards more specifics...

I.E. Make more money...What specifically will you do for this?
Health...what specifically about your health?
GAL- What specific actions towards GAL.

Time on the computer... same for me.
I plan to be more specific in my time... 20 minutes reading a specific thread. 10 minutes replying to specific tribe members ... 15 minutes jotting down my updates in my own thread...each of these on different days.

Just my interpretation of Lady V's suggestion.

OK Blu

Your goals should be very specific, achievable, action orientated and in the present tense. It helps if you can visualise them perhaps with a pin board. You have to have wriggle room, and of course you are right they are your actions. You may find like I do that starting with the end result and stepping out the actions may help. And you know to modify them as you go forward to?

So along the lines of

1. I am now including the following additional responsibilities at work, a, b and c, and I am happily engaged in trading for the qualification. I cheerfully request payrise/training/promotion and receive feedback which encourages me further. I am being paid an extra xyz, have extra benefits egg, etc which I have deserved.

(V uses priority management tools, and has three paper diaries, one for actions tomorrow, written in the evening, one for meetings etc for the long medium term, one for journaling and what actually happened today, all very low tech. I am still in business and have paid back 50k US of debt. Moved into my own offices, its a struggle and I have started again at 62))

2. I am energetically fit and active and as a result of consistently running/attendingthe gym/ doing home workouts x times a week for y minutes I have a resting pulse of w and have added s lbs of muscle. I am thrilled that by following the d healthy eating plan that I look and feel amazing. I love my body today.

I use monitoring tools daily and I track my progress which is thrilling and motivating for me.

(V uses a fit bit, joins different gym challenges, and is on a sugar free diet, for your info I have lost 55 lbs, and borough my resting BP down to 58 from 82, I also monitor sleep and steps, my long term sugars have dropped from 9.2 to 5.2. The key is to keep resetting, doing that which works).

3. I have fun meeting with my friends g times a month, I happily undertake interesting challenges with my family h times a month. I go hiking j times a month and I book my activities into my timetable and calendar at the start of each month to ensure that I have lovingly created the time to care for myself by reading, following mindfulnes etc.

--------------------------------------

All I can tell you is it works for me. I also have joined the Superbetter website to recover from the complex PTSD, went to EE this year and trained as an abuse counsellor. I did use myfitnesspal when I first started as a motivator. I still do 12 steps.

Why do I tell you this? It's because without the goals and the help and support of my cheer teams I would probably be in a very bad place.

The more specific and active your goals are the better so

1. Actual (Present tense)
2. Active
3. Attitude (Positive even if the goal is move towards others move away from, even so make this positive)
4. Amplified (Encouraged with a cheer team and tools)
5. Accountable (Individual I)
6. Advised (Monitored know your numbers preferably independently)
7. Achievable (smaller steps)
8. Adaptable (pace changed up or down, sometimes a holding pattern is ok)

------------------------------

Sounds complicated?

So no weasel words, could do, should, try, must. They create resistance to goals.

And have those goals where you look at them regularly, review monthly or every thread etc),

Oh yes and go brag about those achievements and celebrate them.

Hope this helps.

Over to you.,...........

V

Oh and one last thing, goals can be tiny and just for one day at a time. They don't have to be earth shattering.

So today I happily drank 3 glasses of refreshing cool water.

In the next hour I will mindfully clean my shoes, answer 3 emails, draft 2 invoices, ring one disgruntled client, talk to the tax authorities about x...........

And so on.

V

Thank you, Lady V. I love your postive attitude. So not my style tho :-) Maybe THAT should be my NY change. Ha.

And hello friends. I hope the new year is finding you all well! ... If it's not, then maybe it's time to go out and find it yourself, eh? They say "good things come to those who wait," but do they really? I tend to think good things come to those who go out and make something good happen! You can't make other people do things or feel things, but you can find something within your control. Let those be your joys in life and you will always have them. No one can take them away from you. Art? Dance? Music? Cooking? Hiking? Knitting? A new hobby? Journaling? The list is endless.....

Yesterday I was feeling down and exhausted and had little to no motivation to get anything done. Been rethinking lately if I want this M to work, which makes me terribly sad. Honestly my H is wonderful, present, and a hardworking man. Mostly he is a great dad and we have this beautiful family. Hate to think about losing it all. I don't know tho, I just feel like I don't want that ugliness of the A and separation in my history. That's how I've been feeling lately and I don't need to be talked out of it. I know we are all here to save our M, but I also think it terribly naive to believe they will all work, even if they all come back. It's been almost 2 years H has been back, but I want so much more.

So yesterday I did something different. I didn't let myself wallow or go about my usual routine. I made fun and relaxing plans with a friend I adore, on a whim, and I left the house and the mess behind. Just picked up and left it all for an entire day and evening of rejuvenation. Came home in the best mood and allowed myself to have a complete turnaround. Feeling proud of myself and thinking how I can mix it up again today!

Gosh sometimes I wish I could go back in time and deal with my sitch differently. You know what I would do differently? As soon as H dropped his fat ugly bomb on me about that (fat and ugly) OW, I would have simply looked at him and shrugged. Then I would have said, "Okay. I'm sorry to hear that. There is the door and I'll be going on with my life now." Then I would have protected my kids something fierce. Oh, and only the wonderful and safe poeple would get to see my tears. Lastly, I would have started posting here immediately. Lastly, I would have thought long and hard before letting him back in my life.

Ok, putting computer down, and going to be spontaneous again. This time, I'll be alone with my bad arse self.

Peace!
Blu

Hey Blu, as one of the people who have actually been able to have another opportunity with their W'S, I follow youp threads closely. I get where you are coming from with wishing you had done things different, as I do as well (although my W hasn't come back to me yet). Do you think that what you are feeling is resentment? Is it that you are unable to forgive yourself for not standing up for you when it was all going down? Or is it that Hernandez is still exhibiting some of the same behaviors as before? I am wondering because my W seems to be stuck in a terrible combination of the past and her own version of reality.

Originally Posted By: Melo

Hey Blu, as one of the people who have actually been able to have another opportunity with their W'S, I follow youp threads closely. I get where you are coming from with wishing you had done things different, as I do as well (although my W hasn't come back to me yet). Do you think that what you are feeling is resentment? Is it that you are unable to forgive yourself for not standing up for you when it was all going down? Or is it that Hernandez is still exhibiting some of the same behaviors as before? I am wondering because my W seems to be stuck in a terrible combination of the past and her own version of reality.

Hi Melo. Thanks for reading and commenting. I like your questions because they challenge me to think about my sitch more. It's much easier to see things in other people's sitches than our own, isn't it.

Do I think what I am feeling is resentment? Probably. Partly I resent H for what he put me through. And what it did to our R (now) and the affect on the kids then. However, I have also come to understand how it happened and that it was a mistake. I just have this sense that I won't fully forgive him and so I need to figure out over time if I can live with that. Can I fall in love again with someone that hurt me in the worst way? Only time will tell.

Am I not able to forgive myself for not standing up for myself during our sitch? No, quite the opposite actually. I stood up for myself. I fought hard and at times was a royal B1TC#! I actually would text him that I hated him, that he made me sick, and that I wish he had never come into my life. Sigh. Not proud of that, but at least I stayed true to myself. Other times I just kept healthy distance and had firm boundaries. I screwed up a lot and was an emotional disaster. I think I have forgiven myself for those mistakes. I think forgiving HIM is where my issue lies. )I have trouble respecting any man that cheats on his wife with her friend and then leaves her and his kids. Even though I understand how it can happen, it still disgusts me.)

When you ask if Hernandez is still exhibiting some of the same behaviors as before, I assume you mean my husband? I don't know a Hernandez. lol. My H has changed in several ways. He is not the same as he was during the A or when we were separated. That was a dark time for him and he was lost, selfish, and terribly ashamed. He was sort of running scared--I was lashing out left/right--and OW was the snake that was lurking around every corner waiting on opportunities.

He has been through therapy, read books, self reflected, and he is trying to make positives changes in himself and the M. I do see that he has changed. I do trust him. I know that he loves me and the kids and regrets everything.... Can I fully forgive him or learn to love him again without full forgiveness is where I get stuck.

When we are left behind, we long for our partner back and feel so scared and hopeless. When they come back, and after everything settles down, then we have to make the hard choices.

Blu

I only have a few minutes, but was thinking about something and wanted to share while it was fresh in my mind.

So most of us are here because we are the LBS, because our S cheated and/or left us for OP, and because we want our M back. we feel terrible about ourselves, we feel hopeless, and we are further desperate for them to come back. We are increasing our cycle of low self esteem and dependency. We feel weaker, we look weaker, and we try harder. So we come to DB land in hopes of a fix.

We read Sandi's rules, and many of us post, only to read 2*4s, and then we feel more like a failure. We just can't seem to do it! All we want is our S back. Why isn't this working? It's not working because we are not actually doing it at all. I see many of you reading, posting, and reading and posting, but you are not actually doing it--you are not letting go, stepping back, going dark, 180, GAL, detaching, and to make matters worse, you are then beating yourself up for your failures. ... and round and round you go. ...

Haven't we all heard the stories of the people that cheat and then the W/H kicks them to the curb and moves on??? What does the cheater do? And why do they do it? ... The H/W that was cheated on are not posting here? Why??? Think about it for a minute. They have their S begging for forgiveness and to come back? What is different? Just chew on that for a few minutes ...

Blu

Once again, great post Blu!! Thank you for the positive feedback!! I have not let go enough or been dark enough...I have kept up with GAL which helps so much!

Thanks again!

I agree Blu, in retrospect if I would have gone completely dark after having confronted my W on her cheating I would have sent the message that I am not going to put up with that behavior and that I am worth it. Instead I talked ad nauseum about it with her and conveyed a mixed message and weakness. Nobody is attracted to weakness.

It can feel hard not to know what to do for the best when we feel so desperate to hold on to the R. When I saw XH after BD, I could see that he looked kind of pleased that there were two women both wanting to be with him. That and the reading I did at the time convinced me that I needed to take myself out of the mix.

He said that when we met he felt swept away by love for me and wanted to hold my hand. I told him that we would not have any sort of romantic R whilst he was in a R with someone else. I actually haven't seen him since that day and he decided to D me and is still with OW as far as I know. I'm not saying all of this was a fail - because it was good in the main way it should be - for my own sanity and self-respect.

Now I feel if XH and OW want to be together in all those circumstances, and with such an awful start to the R - I wish them best of luck...

Xx

Originally Posted By: BluWave

Haven't we all heard the stories of the people that cheat and then the W/H kicks them to the curb and moves on??? What does the cheater do? And why do they do it? ... The H/W that was cheated on are not posting here? Why??? Think about it for a minute. They have their S begging for forgiveness and to come back? What is different?

I think it's a natural fight or flight reaction. Those people that "fly" as you described above are getting away from the pain. Meanwhile, those of us that choose to "fight" have to continue to endure the pain.

Sure, flying away may lead to the WS coming to chase after us, but I feel that it doesnt actually solve any problems or lead to any growth. I think we grow BECAUSE of the pain, not in spite of it.

When I first experienced BD, I would have done anything to save that marriage. But having gone through the pain and struggle and come out for the best, I imagine that the remaining years I have left will be better for this experience. If my old marriage was a 7, I intend to make sure my next one is a 9. It isnt my fault that my ex didnt want to join me in it.

Someone in another post referred to me as a celebrity, and while I am slightly flattered, lol, I am more so feeling a need to be more cautious with what I post! Please don't think that because my H came back--and I have turned the table so to speak, as he is now the pursuer and I the distancer--that this means I am an expert. Not at all! Like I said, I blew it. I blew it often and for a long time. However, when I did finally let go--started to plan a life without him, stopped spewing, and allowed myself to focus on other things, he quickly turned around.

Knowing what I know now about our history and timeline, if I had followed DB principles and Sandi's rules from day one, I don't think H would have ever left. We have talked about everything and I can see story line with clear lenses now. Don't get me wrong, it would have been tough and the recovery still gruesome, but I do not think we would have separated and he would have not have ran to OW. We were separated for almost a year, and I put a lot of energy into thinking about him and his every move, I was emotionally devastated and spewing, and I didn't allow myself enough time to step back and reflect on me and what I could change about myself. Not to win him back, but for me I mean.

So let me clarify why I say what I do about those people that kick their cheating spouse to the curb. Sure, if you cling on (which most posters do), that doesn't work. You are needy, you are desperate, and you further give your S reasons to leave you. I am not suggesting that by turning your back on them and having them chase you, that that alone will restore the M. Not at all.

Here is the difference. Those that have enough confidence to say, "I deserve better than this, and I am not putting up with a cheating spouse," are able to begin the process of detachment sooner. Is it healthy to "fly" away, close the door on the M, and never reflect back on what happened? No, not at all. These are not mutually exclusive. But is it more healthy to allow detachment sooner and accept the end of the M, while also reflecting on your part in the M, and simultaenously putting up boundaries? Does that also lead to being the better option and more attractive to your S down the road? I think so.

Blu

At one point I kicked WH to the curb, exposed him and OW to their families and felt everything was copacetic. This resulted in WH taking the affair underground (secret second phone, going dark for days without talking to the kids) and even more damage being done. My coach was even frustrated with me, he felt my approach was vindictive and further enforced my WH's belief of my hardness.

I think the trick is to lovingly detach. Too often kicking the cheating spouse to the curb is done in a harsh and self righteous manner, thus making the path back home too bumpy. I was a member of another board and was following their suggestion to put down hard lines and were cheering me on. I felt (at the time) that I was justified in my actions. But I lost focus of my goal, which was to not just save my M but to build a better one with WH. I think it set me back at least 6 months. What's my point? Not 100% sure but there are parts of the technique that weren't working for me so I had to adjust my method.

Originally Posted By: Kaizen

Originally Posted By: BluWave

Haven't we all heard the stories of the people that cheat and then the W/H kicks them to the curb and moves on??? What does the cheater do? And why do they do it? ... The H/W that was cheated on are not posting here? Why??? Think about it for a minute. They have their S begging for forgiveness and to come back? What is different?

I think it's a natural fight or flight reaction. Those people that "fly" as you described above are getting away from the pain. Meanwhile, those of us that choose to "fight" have to continue to endure the pain.

Sure, flying away may lead to the WS coming to chase after us, but I feel that it doesnt actually solve any problems or lead to any growth. I think we grow BECAUSE of the pain, not in spite of it.

When I first experienced BD, I would have done anything to save that marriage. But having gone through the pain and struggle and come out for the best, I imagine that the remaining years I have left will be better for this experience. If my old marriage was a 7, I intend to make sure my next one is a 9. It isnt my fault that my ex didnt want to join me in it.

Terrific post. I agree.

We all contribute to marriages, but remember, we are ALL flawed humans. One of the biggest contributions to a marriage you can give is to forgive your spouse. For little and big things. If you hold resentment and anger within you for your spouse not being perfect, or not doing what YOU want, you are doomed. The marriage is doomed. And you will live a very sad existence.

I think you all bring up really good points. If I could do things over again, I would have done things very differently. I can think back to so many moments--leading up to BD and after BD--that I did the opposite of what is advised here. I would have kept my emotions under wrap in front of him and shared them with safe and supportive people. I would have taken more actions that would help with detachment much sooner.

And yes, I would have kicked him to the curb. I don't mean in an aggressive sense or to be vindictive. I would have stood tall and matter of factly told him that I don't want to be in an M with infidelity and that he should leave. Then I would go dark and focus on myself and kids. At that time I could in no way "lovingly detach" because the A was a huge assault on me and our M. It's just not realistic and I can't (and will never) ignore my feelings.

I agree that we are all flawed and that we all contribute to problems in the M. No one is perfect and I know I have screwed up a lot. But this comparison is apples and oranges. Choosing to have an A with your wife's "friend" and then breaking apart your family, are choices I cannot respect. They are life changing and very difficult to overcome. The only honerable thing to do would have been to let go of him and move on. If he decided to end his A, make changes on himself, and (only) then decided to recommit to the M, that would have been the time to decide if I could be with him. To simply accept that he was imperfect and let him stay in that state of mind, would have been foolish. And It doesn't work.

While he did go through this process--of ending A and self reflection--it was much more bumpy, and I think that was because I didn't let go. I was emotional or angry and he ran further away from me and towards her. I also think I let him back too soon and too quickly. In terms of holding anger and resentment, sure those things need to be worked on and overcome, but we owe it to ourselves to put ourselves first. DB is all about focusing on the self, and so by letting someone cheat, hurt, and walk all over you, you are in turn being a doormat. No one respects the doormat and it feels worse to be one!

Kaizen, I can relate to what you mean about going through pain. In many ways I think I am stronger for what I have learned and been through. I hope over time I can be a better partner too, but the forgiveness piece cannot be forced. The M still needs to be healed and redefined and I see that this can take longer than I ever understood before. When I was just focused on if and when he would come back, I didn't allow myself to do the hard work that I have been doing now.

Blu

I like this thread.

I really need to start my own thread. Basically I caught my wife in 2/16, almost a year ago. Affair with coworker.

She still works with him. Many forums I've been to recommend her quitting immediately. She admits she should've done that, but her IC and our MC (since fired) said she should stay due to finances and it would show her running away from the issue.

I've dealt with them working together for an entire year. Breaking point a few weeks ago where I demanded she quit. MC started chastising me. I blew up at MC. We got so heated at the MC session that we both agreed it would be a good idea to separate.

Since then, we saw a new MC and he's allowed me to vent properly to W about the work sitch. W has promised to leave once her private business takes off, which should be no more than 6 months. She will quit regardless.

I wanted to tell his wife. Old MC insisted it would be a bad idea. New MC says its definitely something I can do, but need to talk to him first. I kinda see WHY it would be a bad idea, citing PsySara's post above - how its punishing them. My wife is a super-religious woman who said when I first found out, she wanted to end her life. She said she could never handle the fallout from friends and family if everyone knew. Her reputation would be destroyed and any chance of her own business taking off would end.

I admit my faults in all this. Hell, I may have cheated on me if she treated me the way I treated her. We're working our butts off making this work, though. 30 years together is a lot to throw away.

Looking forward to more on this thread.

Storm,

Thank you for commenting. I have seen a few of your posts and have been hoping you will start a thread too. There are several of us in piecing that can comment on your thread. Your sitch sounds very hard! We want to support you.

I don't think I would tolerate my H working with OW. When he cut it off with her, he went no contact and has remained that way. We have both crossed her path a few times--in the community and at kid events--however we all ignore each other. It's somewhat awkward and uncomfortable, but has little affect on his. She moved right on to her next OM and we have zero respect for her as a human being.

If there was any contact there, even at work, I imagine the dynamic would be different. Gross. I am so sorry you have to deal with this. I want to read more about your sitch. I hope you start a thread!

Blu

Where should I start? Here or in Piecing? Seems to be more traffic here.

Definitely here, as piecing gets little traffic. Hopefully the vets can way in as well, and they are years down the road.

Blu

Speaking for myself, when I found out about the A I asked him to leave that day and he hasn't returned since. That was in November 2015. We have little to no communication.

For me I was so devastated that I didn't know what else to do. I was not in my right mind to think that there was any other way to handle what he had done to me and our M. Of course I did all the wrong things....the begging, pleading and talking ad nauseam, and when that didn't work then I became this very angry person spewing obscenities at him, telling him I hated him and his family, that I wish he would die and that I had never met him. But honestly I didn't know how to handle all the emotions I was feeling at that time.

Now that he has been gone so long, and I have found support here, do I realize that now I know what is the best thing to do for me. It is very difficult to "lovingly detach" from someone, and to be honest I don't really even know if I know what that means or how to do that to someone who made such a selfish decision as to cheat on their wife and then walk away and abandon everything that we worked hard for the last 11 years.

We are all flawed human beings and all make mistakes, but I think the important thing is that we should be able to take a look inside ourselves to see why we made those decisions and learn from them and grow from them. As hard as this has been for me I am learning things about myself that I didn't like, but I am working on me everyday to make me a better person. Unfortunately he has not been to counseling, nor has he made any effort to show remorse or regret for his decisions, and I honestly don't know if he ever will. He continues to only think about himself, and he is digging himself into a hole financially and I'm not sure how he is going to get out. He does not initiate communication with me AT ALL.

My understanding is that he spends every night home alone in his house. He doesn't have another OW and rarely gets out much. This is what I am having a hard time with because if he isn't with the OW (she was married and is still with her H) or a new OW, why doesn't he see that if he puts effort into making himself better and learning to work on himself then maybe he can see that our M was something worth having and working on. I could understand if he was with someone else and was out enjoying life to the fullest, but he isn't. What that says to me is that he didn't really think our M was worth working on at all. Did those 11 years really mean nothing to him? Or have I made it difficult for him to feel that it is safe to reach out to me because of my actions in the beginning?

I don't know where to go from here. I am learning to make myself a better person, and I know it really is going to benefit me in the long run, but parts of me are not healed and I am not sure if they ever will be. I do still focus too much energy on him and what he is doing....no questions. I guess that I also have not been able to forgive him. But I need to see something on his part that makes me feel that he deserves that forgiveness.

skm, thank you for commenting again. I believe we think a lot alike. I also raged at H when he first left, and did everything DB says not to do. So looking back on things now, I can see how I pushed him further away. Even if I found this site before BD, I am not sure I could have lovingly detached either. I couldn't ignore the hurt/anger I felt. But what I could (should) have done would be to find safe people and outlets to deal with the emotions and just let him be. I was good about rallying support, but still managed to yo-yo in front of him. We can't beat ourselves up for it tho--it's human to error, and most of the posters struggle with the same mistakes. We can however make changes moving forward and represent ourselves better than that.

You have very good insight into your sitch. I think you are correct in that if he is not willing to look at his part in the breakdown of the M, then there is nothing you can do. You can want and hope to restore the M, but really, the person he is today is not good enough. After the hurt/anger he has caused you, you would at least need for him to own his part in it. He would need to be willing to look at the mistakes he made, why he made them, how he can change moving forward to avoid it from happening again, and of course express remorse for hurting you. It doesn't sound like he is taking those steps. That must be hard for you to accept.

"... he didn't really think our M was worth working on ..." So this above is a loaded statement. I don't necessarily agree that the M wasn't "worth" it to him. Think about it, we all find value (worth) in different aspects of our lives and Rs with people. Each person in any R has a different perspective of the R. I think the more healthy and grounded a person is, the more they can attract postive people and sitches into their lives. If your H is not willing to look at himself, avoids conflict, and runs from Rs, then chances are he struggles to find "worth" in his Rs in general. His perspective of you is not a reflection of your value!

"Did those 11 years mean nothing to him?" I think this is your broken heart talking. Of course you and those 11 years mean a lot to him! How much he misses you and the M, none of us can know. Only he can answer that. However most people don't stay in a M that long if they dont love the person. I can think back to a bad relationship I had for several years. It still has meaning to me. At the time I thought I loved him and I did take a lot away from that experience. People that don't reflect on the past and see worth in their M have some serious issues, don't they? Even if he has positive memories of his history with you, that doesn't mean he is ready or wanting to go back to being with you. He may even feel that he blew it.

Have you made it too difficult for him to return because of your past behaviors? So I don't know how to answer this one. I know that I made it extremely difficult for H to come back, let alone even approach me. I lost site, in my own pain, of his experience. I don't know your H or what he is feeling/thinking. The reason folks talk about the lighthouse is to create that safe place for them if/when they come back. Either way, he has to be willing to own his part before you would consider him. You deserve that at a minimum or you will live a life resenting him for the hurt. My H has done all the hard work and I still am learning how to respect him with mistakes he made.

Be gentle on yourself. This takes a long time to recover from, and it could be several years before any of this makes sense. You can still find times to enjoy life without him and give yourself permission to not think about him--even if just several hours at a time. You deserve that. Some say forgiveness is for you and not them. I struggle with that too. I'll let you know when I figure that out ;-)

Blu

Originally Posted By: BluWave

You have very good insight into your sitch. I think you are correct in that if he is not willing to look at his part in the breakdown of the M, then there is nothing you can do. You can want and hope to restore the M, but really, the person he is today is not good enough. After the hurt/anger he has caused you, you would at least need for him to own his part in it. He would need to be willing to look at the mistakes he made, why he made them, how he can change moving forward to avoid it from happening again, and of course express remorse for hurting you. It doesn't sound like he is taking those steps. That must be hard for you to accept.

This is exactly where I am with my W. I love her very much and I want to repair our marriage. But I don't like the person she's become over the past 5 months and I would never want to continue a relationship with her if this her "new" self. Personally I think this "new" self is just a phase and for a while I was just putting up with it and waiting for it to run its course. But I think she's in the thick of it and there's a lot more to come. Call it WW, WAW, or MLC, it's probably a combination of all three and there's only so much a person can take before they reach a breaking point. I'm trying to look at that breaking point as a positive way to lovingly detach further, but it's so hard.

Yay! I read your first post. Im so glad youre here giving advice. So few veterans return.

I never returned bcuz reading the posts brought back all the memories.

Ive learned there are worse things in life. I learned to thank God for every single gift when i was feeling down. I learned to screw the shoulda woulda couldas. I didnt know any better. Im learning to love myself.

I have recovered really well from my sitch. Unfortunately SO didnt.

He is in God's hands.

How are you dealing w resentment. It took me 2yrs after reconciling to feel in love. It couldve come back sooner if i had worked on it right away but i wanted to keep it. As if to punish him. All it did was hurt me.

XOXO

Blu......thanks as always for being so insightful:)

I am still struggling with emotions....mostly anger right now. I know that it is coming from a place of hurt because like I have said before I am devastated at what he has done to me and our M. I am REALLY working on that anger though.

My H is the type of man who doesn't want to deal with emotional things, he doesn't like the way it makes him feel. So I know that if he ever does take a look at himself and what he has done it is going to be a long time from now. Whenever I would get emotional or be upset and crying he would just sit there and say nothing....absolutely nothing!!! He wouldn't try to console me in any way....no kiss, no hug, no words

But the crazy thing is that HE is the one who cried at our wedding, so I know he is capable of showing emotion. I guess he just picks and chooses when.

Sometimes I feel like H doesn't want to do the work so that I stay in a place of resentment, hurt and anger and that way it would be okay for me to D him because he didn't do what needed to be done to heal me and our M. I was the only person that ever made him accountable for things he did. His parents NEVER did that, and to this day continue to bail him out (and this man is 44 years old) and tell him that he just needs to "move on" from all of this. He totally avoids conflict and does not know how to deal with it at all.

I have tried to see his side of things and how he is feeling, but when we have no contact that can be difficult. I know he wants to do the right thing, but I don't think he is ready to do it or even knows what that is or how to.

The crazy thing is that he is a very sweet man and does not like for people to raise their voice at him, or to be upset with him. One time during one of my crazy episodes I told him I hated him and flipped him off and walked off. Later he told me that he didn't like that I got so upset with him to say or do those type of things.

As I have read what I have written in all my posts, the majority of them about him. I REALLY need to stop focusing on him and what he thinks, feels, says or does because I'm pretty sure he isn't thinking about me.....but man is it hard. I know that until I can TOTALLY let go, none of this is going to get better.

Hi everyone,

I have been reading along, just not posting as much lately. I don't really have much new to report. Things are okay. I also find myself wanting to dish out 2*4s left and right when I read your posts. I have to really give credit to those vets that have been coming here for so many years and remain loyal and patient. It's not easy.

So many of you read, read, read, and you understand the concepts, but you continue to pursue, or beg, yell, etc. Maybe it strikes a chord with me because I can relate? I am not sure exactly. Sometimes I want to reach through the screen and shake you. LOL.

I wish I could help you guys more, I do. If you don't know this yet, I am straight-shooter and not a sugar-coater. However, I will only tell you what I BELIEVE will help you.

So I think it's time for a new thread. I will give an update there soon. Keep posting. I am here for you guys, 2*4s and all. YOU WILL GET THROUGH THIS! Although, if you want to come out stronger (and possibly get your spouse back), well than you just have to try harder and stop making excuses. ... you know who you are ...

New thread:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2730441&#Post2730441

Quote:

This is exactly where I am with my W. I love her very much and I want to repair our marriage. But I don't like the person she's become over the past 5 months and I would never want to continue a relationship with her if this her "new" self. Personally I think this "new" self is just a phase and for a while I was just putting up with it and waiting for it to run its course. But I think she's in the thick of it and there's a lot more to come. Call it WW, WAW, or MLC, it's probably a combination of all three and there's only so much a person can take before they reach a breaking point. I'm trying to look at that breaking point as a positive way to lovingly detach further, but it's so hard.

Couldn't agree more. I have no idea who this woman is anymore as she is not the one I married. At this point I could care less because I wouldn't want this person back. She's not the same and not the one I fell in love with. Who cares what the reasoning is on why she is the way she is.... I used to look at her as someone who is "sick" and thought that you wouldn't abandon the person you love when they are ill. However, now the betrayals just keep piling up so this "sick" person is now someone else's problem.

Originally Posted By: SAL27

Quote:

This is exactly where I am with my W. I love her very much and I want to repair our marriage. But I don't like the person she's become over the past 5 months and I would never want to continue a relationship with her if this her "new" self. Personally I think this "new" self is just a phase and for a while I was just putting up with it and waiting for it to run its course. But I think she's in the thick of it and there's a lot more to come. Call it WW, WAW, or MLC, it's probably a combination of all three and there's only so much a person can take before they reach a breaking point. I'm trying to look at that breaking point as a positive way to lovingly detach further, but it's so hard.

Couldn't agree more. I have no idea who this woman is anymore as she is not the one I married. At this point I could care less because I wouldn't want this person back. She's not the same and not the one I fell in love with. Who cares what the reasoning is on why she is the way she is.... I used to look at her as someone who is "sick" and thought that you wouldn't abandon the person you love when they are ill. However, now the betrayals just keep piling up so this "sick" person is now someone else's problem.

I am in the same boat with SAL27 and Chris (the first quote). I feel shes sick, a waw, mlc, etc. Unlike others though, i think ita the new her and she wont acknowledge her issues, and will therefore not ever change, and thus never come back.

My wife told me yesterday she want a full separation immediately - money, housing, etc. Wont even try to fix marriage.

Breaks my heart. Shes not the woman i used to love.

She is being a bad human, wife, and mother.

I am being nice. I feel like a doormat. But im also not a jerk.

It is so hard.

Oh, and i really hate being awake all night thinking about this. Its all i can do to not call her to talk about it - but DBing has taught me better.

My new challenge is to completely detach.

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2730441#Post2730441