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http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2708510&page=10
I think your idea of "tough love" really comes off as inconsistent and punishing. Tough love being a court battle when you are just going to give her what she wants was punishing. Should you be over accommodating? absolutely not. Sharing the boys clothes? That's for the boys.
She won't view it as punishing. She will view it as me being fiscally irresponsible and blame me for wasting all that money. Well she took most of my money, why can't she go buy clothes for the boys now? I am no longer her husband, where is her concern for them in order to clothe them as a single mother?
But I am still so confused. You want to tell her it's not your job to provide anymore even it's for the boys, yet you want to give her custody because you want to be able to provide for them?
Of course I will provide for the boys. I will give what is legally required if I flip the custody around. I guess I wasn't smart enough to see that all of this was a waste of time and money. Chalk it up to my misunderstanding of tough love or stubbornness.
Just think about it a little. It's like you are trying every action to prove a point, teach a lesson, or make her do something but they are so inconsistent.
I am not trying to compete, punish or teach a lesson. She has the freedom to do what she pleases whether I like it or not.
Jim,
I pray that you will take about 10 steps backwards and try and look at all of this with a different perspective...
This community has come out in droves with support, experienced advice, valid questions and observations...
You have received perspectives from the male point of view, the female point of view, father POV and the mother POV, veteran DBers, new Dbers, LBS of WS and WAS...
The feedback has been overwhelmingly of the same thoughts...
You ask advice, and then you shoot it down if it does not align with your POV...
There has been 2x4's there has been love, confusion and WTF? style of advice shared with you...
And the one constant is that you have stayed firm with the same themes...
The theme that if only you had not moved, you would not be in this situation...
If only you had not filed for D, you would not be in this situation...
If only you would have done what she wanted , you would not be in this situation..
The theme that you will move back to Toronto after the decision in the courts...(you say that you will wait and see what the courts say before making this decision, but you never shared what decision the court would have to make for you not to move to Toronto)...
I am going to go out on a limb and guess that you have only had one decision made and that is to go back.
Do you know what you are not addressing in your themes?
Your STBX, is a WW. According to what you have shared.
Have you not read sandi2's extensive explanations and experiences with this?
You wanted her advice most recently...and then countered most of what she shared.
Your decision does not seem to align with DB principles, sandis advice, nor the feedback of so many that have traveled the road before you.
There is a quote from Tony Robbins "A real decision is measured by the fact that you've take a new action. If there's no action, you haven't truly decided."
And since you shared a Tony Robbins quote...I am sure you know I am a big quote guy, so I have to respond to your use and interpretation...
Vanilla is correct in what she replied...
Do not confuse Tonys quote to make emphasis on the word "Decision"...His purpose for the quote was to ensure that one takes action...but I assure you he does not encourage taking poor action and then saying it was a good decision...
So google how Tony makes his decisions...I think that if you use the steps that he uses and you do so with an honest look at your options here, you will then take the right action.
JK, I do not say this to put you on the defensive, nor have you explain what you mean or don't mean...
I observe patterns...
Patterns come from repetitive behaviors and thoughts...
Patterns are habits...
Habits are often times difficult to break.
The first step to breaking any habit is to identify first that we have a poor habit.
I have shared with you on several occasions to seek out information on the "victim mentality". recently I encouraged you to seek out information on the "relationship martyr".
Have you looked at the information for these?
Your story and thread contains much patterns of behavior that align with these concepts.
Some of the signs that are patterns in your threads-
Asking for suggestions for your issues and then rejecting it-Relationship Martyr
Defensivness-Victim mentality
Behave as if you are trapped, but better solutions are available-Relationship Martyr
Set self up for failure-Victim mentality
Appear very capable to others, but may see yourself dependent on your S-Relationship Martyr
Passive agressive tendencies -Victim mentality
Another Tony Robbins quote to ponder on.
"We will act consistently with our view of who we truly are, whether that view is accurate or not."JmKao,
I hesitate to post this as you appear very set in your decision and rightfully so.
You are your own man, and you should go with your heart, mind and soul...
We all should make decisions with such conviction...
I share this with you and then will step back.
I do so while lending you all of my support, my compassion, and heartfelt concern for a fellow father that has gone through a very difficult ordeal that I do know the pain that comes with it...I will never understand the pain of being married for a handful of years and having 5 sons when the BD comes, but I can understand the dark cloud and extreme sense of loss and desire for it all to end when the BD comes...
I do pray for you and your family daily...You are in my thoughts often as I cheer for good things to happen.
I have said this to you several times and I will say it again, You are an awesome example to many fathers out there for what you have done in this past year with 5 young sons...5 young boys that would not have a father if you had not come along and had compassion and true love in your heart to adopt them and make them a part of your family...
Jim, you are not a perfect man, you have not made all good decisions, but who of us have?
I simply pray that you step out of yourself...heed the very sound advice you have been given from experienced persons...get on your knees and pray to whatever power you hold dear to your heart...and open your heart to listen...listen...take time to clear your head... be in a place of peace and calm before any decision is made.
You will not regret whatever decision you make if you do this...
JimKao I support you and will be available for you no matter the path you choose.
"It is in your moments of decision that your destiny is shaped."Tony Robbins
May you find peace in your heart and calm in your spirit and strength in your resolve to be the best dam father for those precious young boys.
Before you reached a custody and support agreement, you seemed focused on the boys and what was good for them and getting to spend time with them.
And you got a lot of time with them.
But you don't seem at all happy about that.
Now you seem focused on the money, to the point of thinking the parent who has them one or two weekends a month should have to clothe 5 growing boys for her weekends.
Why is that?
And is that really the mental attitude you want to make important decisions from?
So Jim....
What do YOU want ??
Why does it benefit you ???
Why does it benefit the kids ???
How does it make you a better man ??
How does it make you a better Father ??
How do you plan on getting there ????
Why did you make that decision ??
How do you plan to adhere to your decision ???
Why are you making the decision ???
How can I help you with your decision ???
SH,
I do not expect the court to change anything in the decision of what we agreed upon. But if they do, the only way I would consider to stay is if they awarded me some money back that she took. I cannot buy a place here or in Toronto with the money I will have.
I have no control over STBX's waywardness. That is hers to own and explain to her boys in the future. I do not feel like my choices enable her actions. My choices are made for the best interest of the boys and myself. If I am not healthy and financially stable, then the boys have nothing in the end.
The fact that STBX uses everyone for her benefit is not something I can control either.
I did look up Tony Robbins youtube video on decision. He said focus = feelings. If I don't focus on my health, then I will not be able to feel good with the boys. If I don't focus on my job then I will not perform to the best of my ability and be able to provide financially to them.
Tony also asked 3 questions:
What should I focus on?
Me and the boys and my job.
What does this mean?
He asked what do you do in the beginning of an R? You do anything for the person you are in the relationship with. 5 years down the road it changes and you start to change or criticize and do less of the things you did in the past for the other like happily take out the garbage.
If I look at this like it is the beginning again, maybe I will see more positive results, even if it is just being the best co-parents possible.
Is this the end or is this the beginning? If I look at this like this is the beginning and with a positive focus, then I may get positive results, not for my R with STBX but for the boys.
The last question he asked is What should I do? So he states when you get a meaning and a feeling, you will take an action or pull back. I no longer want to pull back.
Sandi's 37 rules apply to my R with STBX and not the discussions we have about the boys. Maybe I need to be more aware of how to separate the two. I do not feel it is a poor decision for me to move up there. I feel that it is the best thing for the boys so they have both parents in the same city.
I am not the victim and I am not a relationship martyr. I may not like the outcome of this sitch but I have to accept the reality. I am who I am and I will always be true to myself.
My writing skills and communication may not be the best and possibly get misinterpreted. I just want to be the best person I can be for them because at this point, I am both physically and mentally burnt out with no time for myself.
I will miss them dearly on the days they are not with me but they will always be in my heart.
Rose,
I guess I still have a lot of feelings and emotions to process that will take time to heal. I plan on giving her what she needs so the boys can dress fancy for Thanksgiving. I do not want to be petty. That is not what I want to be.
So Jim....
What do YOU want ??
I want to be able to work on my health, be the breadwinner for my boys, be fiscally responsible, and start to build a positive co-parenting relationship.
Why does it benefit you ???
Gives me time to work on myself and work some additional hours to make money to provide for the boys. Also puts me in a city that has more people to meet and keep my mind off of STBX.
Why does it benefit the kids ???
No 10 hour round trip travels for the next 15 years once a month. If I bring them back to Michigan it will only be 4 to 6 times per year. Both parents live in the same city and we
may potentially do things together as a family.
How does it make you a better man ??
I keep my commitment that I made to my family about moving there in the first place. (Man of my word). I show my boys that I am not fearful of change and show them that I am strong and emotionally stable.
How does it make you a better Father ??
Although it may be less time, the time I spend with them will be healthy. I will be more energetic and help them to make better choices if I have a clear mind as I continue to focus on improving my health through quitting smoking and exercising.
How do you plan on getting there ????
Company will transfer me and help me relocate.
Why did you make that decision ??
I just feel like I need a change also. I made a list and objectively weighed the pros and cons between living in Michigan vs. Toronto.
How do you plan to adhere to your decision ???
Action.
Why are you making the decision ???
In the best interest of the family.
How can I help you with your decision ???
Ensure that I am not doing this for STBX. Support me in developing healthy boundaries with STBX. Ensure my statements and actions have a potentially positive outcome for the boys and myself, regardless of STBX's statements, thoughts and actions.
Well if you go there make sure whatever modifications to the D custody, spousal support, etc. are also court approved and enforceable in Canada. Don't be bushwacked by her challenging the new agreement in Canadian courts and taking away everything. If there is a way to do it she will. I would also suggest that you get some additional concessions from her for making this move. Like, maybe give some of the money back, or you get them for every Christmas, US Thanksgiving, father's day, and all your vacation days, or she goes to an IC, on her dime, to fix her selfish ways, or she has to pay 50% of school/college for all of them, just something so it looks less like you just rolled over. I fear she would forever stick it to you about how she got you to do what she wanted, and if you only .... in the beginning. yada yada yada. You know she will just beat you to death with that. Make an agreement that she will respect you and not despise you.
Agree.
I need something in return.
So I spoke with the psychologist that did the eval. She is upset that I am changing gears but understands the financial portion. She is upset that both of us adopted 5 boys. I stated that I understood and talked to STBX about the risk of doing that but that never stopped STBX from moving forward with the adoption. Psychologist said she is concerned on how STBX will raise the boys, I agreed and said that is out of my control when she has them.
I also spoke with my L after. I guess the court forced STBX to do proofs today and so a judgment will be finalized within 21 days. L advised I do not bring the custody change up until the judgment is complete, I agreed.
I also spoke to DB coach yesterday. He understood my financial concern and said that if I do speak with her about changing custody around that I should just tell her it took me time to process and that I now understand her POV and leave it at that and see what STBX says.
It is clear to me now that STBX has had this planned for sooooo long. I let emotions dictate my actions. The best thing I can do at this point is ensure my boys are financially stable. STBX will only be able to save the money that she gets from the subsidy and child support from me to provide to them in the future. I will be able to contribute from my salary. I pray that she and I can give them the love and attention that they need.
I understand that most everyone that will read this post will not like or agree with what I am doing and I understand that. I truly do feel like it is the best thing though even if that means me sacrificing some time with the boys. My heart hurts so much just thinking about what I am doing. That is what got me into this mess in the first place. It is not a bad thing that people act on how their heart feels but it may result in poor decisions and actions.
Jim, you are still playing the victim. You could have stopped the adoption at any point by saying that you didn't want to adopt the boys. You didn't. That's on you, not your STBXW.
And although you can't control how she parents, you absolutely can control how much time she spends with the kids. You are choosing to increase the amount of time they spend with a person whose parenting skills make the psychologist concerned.
Sit with that for a minute.
Yes, your life will be more stressful, at least at first. (As they get older, it will be easier for you to get time for yourself.)
Yes, you will have less money.
Neither of those are as important as the commitment you made to the boys when you adopted them.
Now is the time to man up.
I know this isn't want you want to hear. And I have no illusion you will accept this. But I felt a moral obligation to say it.
I'm stepping away from your thread.
Rose,
You are correct. I do need to man up. As everyone has suggested I will give it a year and see what happens. Now that this whole things is almost over I just need to get the boys situated with some consistency.
Now that this whole things is almost over I just need to get the boys situated with some consistency.
From what you have posted Jim...
YOU are the constant in their lives...
You should be setting the market for them...
Favor ?
Give this a few weeks to settle in. Let the feelings, angst, and fear wear off a bit before you make your final decision...
And those questions yesterday ??
Maybe re-read those right before you decide, and see if your answers still fit...
????
Mach1,
I will. I do need to let this settle for a while and take stock of her actions. One thing I would like to discuss with her is the agreement we had about saving money to give the boys when they turn 18. I would be curious as to how she proposes we do that now. If anything, that will be the only thing I bring up with her this weekend.
Jim, I have followed your story for a long time. Would you mind reposting the reasons you had for staying in MI and keeping the boys there? I wonder if you have forgotten them. I don't remember them all.
I agree with Rose, you didn't have to let your ex adopt 5 boys if you had concerns. That's a HUGE decision that you should have been in full agreement about. Blaming her (and yes, you do that a lot, even for things she does not have the power to decide) is not right.
It's also incredible to read that your reply to the psychologist's concern is that you do not have control over Ex. You were just given control over most of their time, but you want to give it away?
Before you declare to everyone that you're changing your plans, please discuss this in depth with a counselor for yourself. You have said before that you tend to make decisions based on emotions, and you just can't afford to do that.
I think the travel may not be as bad as you think. Are you sure you're not looking for an excuse to go live near Ex? To keep in close touch daily? She could make your life hell. She has already showed what she is capable of. Did you forget she threatened you? That she bullies you in order to get her way?
You need to let the feelings you have for her stabilize with the new reality before you make this huge move.
I was writing my post while you posted. I am very relieved that you have decided to give it a year and see how out works out!
Mach1,
I will. I do need to let this settle for a while and take stock of her MY actions. One thing I would like to discuss with her is the agreement we had about saving money to give the boys when they turn 18. I would be curious as to how she proposes we do that now. If anything, that will be the only thing I bring up with her this weekend.
Fixed that for ya...
Look, you are raw, you are hurt, and you are angry...
Are you sure that's the best time to make life decisions ?
And I see that theme running through this thread...
The reason that I fixed that for you...??
Is that, at NO POINT....should YOU allow her, to be making YOUR decisions for you...
And one thing, should be the ONLY thing for now....
I do hope that you can see that. If not today, then maybe in the near future...
This is like watching a car sitting. On the train tracks while the train approaches at about 10 mph but is still certain To do huge damage to e erroneous I the car. - in this case, 5 young boys.
You told us only a week ago that you would not act on this for at least a month. I did not go back and pull the quote but most certainly can. Just telling us what you think we want to hear? You obviously had no intention to do that.
I don't know what the correct decision here is. I just Know that changing decisions like this after fighting In court and doing so in this time frame and mind state is crazy. And the train keeps coming while we all scream DRIVE THE CAR OFF THE TRACKS. yet there it Still sits.
Most of all, I feel so blasted bad and sorry for these kids. They deserve two stable parents and seem to be coming up short twice.
Like the others I beg you - please drive off the tracks!
So even after we agree to everything the criticism from STBX has started. She sent an email stating I did not pack clothes. She specifically asked for dress clothes for thanksgiving only. That is what I packed. Should I have packed more clothes for the boys? I can see how some would say ues because it is for the boys. In STBXs POV I am a bad planner. Just tring to learn to improve the coparenting relationship.
Then listen and validate. She is learning what single parenting is like and will be acting out a lot. You will continue to parent the best way you can, be a steady, stable lighthouse for those boys. Do not defend yourself, simply say something like, "Yeah, this stuff is a steep learning curve, thank you for the suggestions." Then crickets unless she has a real question about the boy's needs.
The only thing you can control is your reaction to her stabs. Sometimes lob a compliment her and knock her off her soapbox. "Packing the boys stuff made me realize how well you multitask at these things."
Trust me, she'll be like...wha???
Sara
I sent a reply back with both suggested phrases. Thank you.
So I called to speak to the boys as they asked me to call when we drove up. I spoke to all but S8. STBX said he is upset and that he did not want to talk. I said that is ok. Then she denied me speaking with S2, he was eating dinner and then she called me back a few minutes after he was done and I was able to speak with him. Then she starts into shoe sizes are small and I stated the shoes are new and the feet were measured before I bought them. She starts spewing sizes that are a full size incorrect. I tried not to get emotional and stood my ground but she would not stop so I hung up.
She calls back and we argue more, about the D and how she did everything she could to keep the boys and that I was inflexible. I stood my ground and stated that things changed when you fired me as your H. She said she now has a new boyfriend that she has been seeing for a while. I told her I am glad she is happy. She said she knew I was not going to change and do the right thing and have the boys come live with her and good luck to me in raising them. She said we will see how good they turn out when they grow up. She said Toronto is a better place to raise them than Michigan.
She asked what the status is on the car getting fixed and I told her we are still waiting for the engine and if she is that concerned she should call the dealership herself. She also asked why I have not shared the boys school schedule and I stated that I gave her email when I signed them up. I also stated if she was that concerned with what is going on then she can call the school directly and get whatever information she needed. I told her I am not her secretary anymore.
She went and bought clothes for the boys for this weekend since she did not have any. I said next time I will improve my communication with her to ensure the boys have the appropriate things when they visit.
All in all not a good conversation as we both said things that has been typical between us, high conflict!
Why do I want to be in an R with this person?
Why can't I let go?
I have to get out of this rut and get my crap together for the boys. Same theme all the time from me that everyone is reading. I am sorry I am having such a difficult time with this and that everyone has to hear me say the same things over and over.
She has gotten into my head so much I don't know what is right anymore. Very frustrated! She has me almost convinced I am an introverted narcissist.
I also drove by the house she is building that she is supposed to move into in November. I wanted to see if there were condos near by IF I even move up here. None that I could see and the house she is building doesn't even have brick on it. It is framed, roof is installed, doors and windows and insulation on the outside. At best she may get in there sometime first quarter of next year. So my boys would have been living with her at her parents for God knows how long until the house was done. Anyway not mine to worry about. I have to improve blocking things with STBX.
STBX thinks I am here to party for the weekend, did not respond. Nothing but spew from her. She also made many comments about not having a plan when she has the boys this summer as a SAHM, she said she doesn't know how she is going to pay for anything, I validate with that must be frustrating and tough to plan. It's like she is subliminally telling me, I am not well and still need Jim to take care of me while I cake eat even after the D. What do I do with this? Nothing! File it away and be done with it.
Going to go have dinner and a glass of wine to wind down and then get some sleep and put this day behind me. Baby steps, parallel parent first.
Ah yes, one more thing. I asked her if she will be exercising her co-parenting time in Michigan per the custody arrangement. She stated she did not know and that that is not what the custody arrangement states. I stated that she should review the document again with her L. She said she doesn't have money yet and would have to spend hundreds of dollars on hotels and 3 meals a day if she came down to do every other weekend. I stated that I understood since that is what you agreed upon. I know, I never should have said "what you agreed upon".
JK, sorry you're having to go through this with her, even after the agreements are in place. You are a great father and shouldn't worry about what she says about you (easier said than done, I know). Don't doubt yourself for a minute!
If anything, her instability should continue to push you to know you made the right decision in keeping the boys. You are a rock for those boys. Don't let her avalanche consume them!
Stay strong brother. This drama too will pass.
Jim, I have followed your story for a long time. Would you mind reposting the reasons you had for staying in MI and keeping the boys there? I wonder if you have forgotten them. I don't remember them all.
Painter,
The reason I stayed in Michigan was because my family and friends are there. Cost of living is less expensive there. Future opportunity for promotions for the company I work for.
STBX states the following: Quality of life is better in Toronto, education system is more consistent and better in Ontario than in the US.
Last night when we argued on the phone she basically reiterated those feelings again.
DB coach asked me to list things objectively on the differences between living in Michigan and Toronto. I have to say that I agree with STBX after I did research on the education system and quality of life. Canada is rated #2 for quality of life. It includes health, happiness of people, and many other categories that define quality of life.
If I eliminate the R between STBX and I, then I really cannot disagree with her.
Last night she still kept saying I work in Canada and I had to remind her that I did not any longer. Then she said well you are working in Toronto this weekend. She knows that I can still transfer here and is upset that I am not. I am sure she feels like I am doing this out of spite to punish her.
I agree with Rose, you didn't have to let your ex adopt 5 boys if you had concerns. That's a HUGE decision that you should have been in full agreement about. Blaming her (and yes, you do that a lot, even for things she does not have the power to decide) is not right.
I did push back quite a bit, we had many arguments over this and yet she kept moving forward with the adoption. Not blaming her, these boys are both our responsibility and we need to own up to taking care of them regardless if we are together or not.
It's also incredible to read that your reply to the psychologist's concern is that you do not have control over Ex. You were just given control over most of their time, but you want to give it away?
Before you declare to everyone that you're changing your plans, please discuss this in depth with a counselor for yourself. You have said before that you tend to make decisions based on emotions, and you just can't afford to do that.
I am slowing down. Not going to make any moves in the short term. I will give it additional time.
I think the travel may not be as bad as you think. Are you sure you're not looking for an excuse to go live near Ex? To keep in close touch daily? She could make your life hell. She has already showed what she is capable of. Did you forget she threatened you? That she bullies you in order to get her way?
You need to let the feelings you have for her stabilize with the new reality before you make this huge move.
I am not looking to live near her to get back together with her. I cannot change an angry, miserable person who is selfish. Her perception is that Toronto is a better place to live for the boys. She feels I am keeping them in Michigan to punish her. She knows I can get a transfer to live here. Her arguments now are strictly for the boys. I get her perspective and am not opposed to it, maybe because I am too nice and easy going. As many have stated, give it a little time and let's see how this works out for the next few months before making any decisions.
I can tell you it is nice to be in a city with lots of people.
I can also tell you that STBX does not have a plan regardless of custody arrangement. She has no idea how she will sustain living in the house her parents are buying. Without the support of her parents, she would be truly lost.
STBX does not know if she will be exercising her every other weekend parenting time in Michigan. She would have to pay for hotel and 3 meals a day. She also does not know how she will raise the boys in the summer. She did not say that she is going to look for a job, but she sounded confused on the phone as she had no plan.
I bought the LRT videos from MWD and have viewed them. Going to post my thoughts later about what I learned and understood from them.
Lastly,
Last night I had a dream about STBX. I offered her to be in an open marriage and she accepted the offer so that we would both be able to live with the boys and raise them. WTF!
Well, had a nice Canadian Thanksgiving with a great friend and his family. Lots of laughter and fun and the food was delicious.
STBX has now realized that she will incur costs to have her 2nd weekend in Michigan if she wants to see the boys more than once a month, may have to go to court tomorrow to revise paperwork. Ugh. All she is asking is to reduce her child support from $50 dollars per month to zero since she will be dropping about 5K per year on her visits with the boys in Michigan.
Painter,
I hope I answered your questions before on the reasons I stayed in Michigan. Not sure if you plan on commenting.
Just spoke with L. She explained to me since neither STBX or I showed up in court last Friday that is why the delay happened and moved to tomorrow.
L says that someone needs to go to court to state there was a breakdown in the M. I asked L well what if I went in and stated under oath that this is fixable. What would the judge say. L said she has no idea but could possibly dismiss and not grant the D. L recommends I do not do that.
Thoughts?
What do you expect to happen if the D gets dismissed? Is there a benefit to you and the boys if this happens?
Well, looks like it is rescheduled for October 21st now.
Ginger,
No, it would mean we are still M and would for sure make STBX upset. If I state that things are fixable maybe the judge will ask what STBX wanted to fix then I could list the items. I do not know what STBX will say about how the M brokedown. Her only argument would be is she does not want to be married to me anymore. Then we would be back to square one of STBXs request of wanting me to move and have the boys live with her and pay what STBX originally requested and allow her to still be wayward. Boys would not have a clue on how wayward STBX is so for them, they would only recognize mom and dad going back to mom's original plan.
Hi Jim,
I saw your reply - it was sort of moot since you have decided to give it some time.
It sounds like a very confusing time for you. I can see you have a lot of different moving parts to relate to, legally, practically and emotionally. Are you seeing an IC for yourself? I think it would be good for you to talk to someone and map out your options.
I get your urge to go to court and be honest about how you feel about your M. I'm a little surprised that for the insane amounts of money you are paying the L, you're not getting better information and preparation for the process. Did the L not tell you that you and WW needed to be there for this? I'm sure you're getting charged for the L's time, right?
Hi Jim,
I saw your reply - it was sort of moot since you have decided to give it some time.
It sounds like a very confusing time for you. I can see you have a lot of different moving parts to relate to, legally, practically and emotionally. Are you seeing an IC for yourself? I think it would be good for you to talk to someone and map out your options.
I have been seeing an IC. The same one who did MC for STBX and I. She has asked me to call anytime I need to talk and have multiple times. I told her I was going to take some time before the move and she understood that I would do it for the boys well being long term. Yes, still confused since there are many moving parts. The M is done, the question is how do I make it more positive without STBX wanting to still control me. How do I get STBX to respect me? I know how, it is just emotionally upsetting. If I move maybe (and that is a big maybe) it would be better.
I get your urge to go to court and be honest about how you feel about your M. I'm a little surprised that for the insane amounts of money you are paying the L, you're not getting better information and preparation for the process. Did the L not tell you that you and WW needed to be there for this? I'm sure you're getting charged for the L's time, right?
Yes, I am getting charged for L's time. Not all of it though as she is a friend, but still pricey.
I guess the way L and I saw it was that since STBX did not want to come down, STBX and her L wanted to push for my L and I to go and finalize things. STBX is the plaintiff and wants this D so she should be the one to close the case on record. I agreed with what my L said. My L tends to bring fear into the equation saying STBX will take advantage of me if I move to Canada and since the laws are different she cannot advise. So I do my own research.
Might be time to get a consultation with a Canadian L.
IDK, I could bring a whole new twist to this and say this is fixable to the judge and say my peace. I don't think that would change STBX's mind, but it would definitely not make her look good in the courts eyes.
Have to analyze and do some more research on custody in Canada. One day at a time.
Struggling today. Woke up in a sad mood. Exchanging the boys.
STBX texts me to let me know cell phone bill is ready. I thanked her and asked her to bring all checkbooks from joint account and to bring a check for S6's subsidy money for the month of October.
She asked status of Hyundai repairs. I stated again if she was concerned to call dealership as I have not heard a date. Then she asked about furniture and I stated I would review the list by this weekend.
So she write the following back about all this stuff.
STBX: OK just asking if you'd heard back about the car. Yes please review the list and get back to me this weekend the. I don't see any reason to discuss tonight or tomorrow about anything. The plan was to always save the boys subsidy for their future. You have control over that money. You will do what you want with it regardless of my input or feelings. You certainly didn't ask my opinion about using the $50K + we had already saved for them. I will see you at 1pm today as planned.
Now I get her perspective. I texted the following back.
STBX, I understand your position of saving money. Since we are going to be divorced, this changes the strategy and I feel that contribution needs to come from both of us.
JK- checking back in with you and sorry your sad but its probably about the exchange
This divorce stuff is all consuming and your situation is the most complex I have encountered on this site while I have been on
Question- what are you doing for yourself in all of this mess if there is time in the day/week for that?
Eventually you need to get to a place to start working back towards the sunlight. It is slowly happening for me but I don't have the complexity you do ....
Well found out from the boys that they met new OM when I dropped them off on Friday night. I guess it was his motorcycle on the street. He was there when I even walked in the house a bit not sure where. He is a police officer. FML.
I do not even know what to say or do anymore.
Reality bites JK
It's the known which was the unknown before....I haven't seen in person the OM I have suspected but pictures and such which is enough for me. And the denial continues...
But I don't think that changes a thing except that you continue to protect your kids, yourself and do what you need to do in order to get through this...
I would also make sure that she is doing her parenting job and spending time with them when she has them and not having babysitters all the time. Not sure how you monitor that but bring it up to ensure you are "watching" & it would be an issue.
Your WW has an OM and is determined to D.
You have 5 sons all small.
You are the stable parent and are considering destabilising to the whims of a wayward who no longer wants to be with you.
You know this and truly don't know this.
Jim, you are one truly wonderful father and man.
Please hold this thought to your heart with your boys.
V
So I bought the LRT training videos. I also spoke to DB coach this week.
Friday I call STBX and tell her that I am moving to Toronto after the D. She doesn't believe me and so the following texts occur later that evening.
This just solidifies in writing that she clearly is a person with huge entitlement issues and is bat$hit crazy.
I never want to be with this person again. So toxic. She admitted she puts herself first over the boys.
When I told STBX I am moving it was a huge weight off my shoulders. Not for her, but for me and the boys. I feel like I am in limbo and will save more money financially by moving up there since S4 will be going to school for free. I will live in a little place and continue to focus on my and the boys. I have dropped the rope with her. I now want this D as bad as she does.
Here are the messages:
Me: I called L and left her a voicemail. I will send an email also when I get in the office.
Me: Ok sent L an email. Will keep you posted on my transfer and how things play out with that.
STBX: Ok. Can you copy me and my L on the email?
STBX: When is the lease up on your apartment?
Me: L is out of the office. She will not be back until Monday. I will forward the email after I discuss with her if the change can be made.
Me: End of November.
STBX: Ah so now it's IF the change of custody can be made. See it's never a definite
STBX: You say one thing one minute then another the next
STBX: Whatever, as I said I'll believe it when I see it...
Me: You stated you weren't sure of it could be made before the 21st. I agree that it is in question whether we can change it.
Me: Maybe it will have to be after I dont know.
STBX: Well either way it can be changed before or after
STBX: But it can be changed
Me: Yes agree
STBX: Ok
Me: Enjoy ur day and have a good weekend.
Me: Also want to let you know that I did start my transfer over to Toronto and I will send you evidence as I get emails for it so that you believe me
STBX: That's all fine and good but you actually need court approval to accept a transfer and move the kids
STBX: Didn't your L tell you that?
STBX: We can ask the court on the 21st so you better get your ducks in a row before then
STBX: And no, under the circumstances I don't think it's appropriate I attend the baptism. Besides I have a prior engagement anyway.
Me: Ok I will try and get documentation from work.
Me: You taking the kids that weekend also since it is your parenting time?
Me: No need tell me about your personal life. Not interested anymore.
Me: My focus is on the boys.
STBX: It's not actually my parenting time
Me: Yes. Every other weekend.
STBX: I was going on ask if I could take the kids on the 21st since I'll be down there for court and bring them back to TO for the weekend
STBX: Meet you halfway in London on Sunday
Me: No I have things going on also.
STBX: It's not every other weekend. All it stated was 2 weekends a month
STBX: Ah well I guess it won't work
STBX: Ok
Me: Ok 2 weekends a month. We need to agree to a schedule if u cannot then it wont work.
Me: I am not here to schedule around your social life.
STBX: And for the record if we were following an every other weekend rule then the 21st would've been the weekend anyway not the 30. Plus you said you were taking them trick or treating
Me: Yes ur more than welcome to join in trick or treating if u choose.
STBX: No I already have plans that weekend
Me: Do u even really want the kids?
Me: Or am I moving there for nothing.
STBX: Ha! That's rich
STBX: I just fought for them
STBX: No you're moving here to try and control me again through the kids
STBX: You're moving here because you're getting transferred
STBX: All of a sudden you have this epiphany that I should have the kids? I don't buy that for a second
STBX: Of course I want my children
Me: I chose the transfer because the boys do not deserve to be trekked back and forth. As far as you and I are concerned I am not looking to control you.
STBX: But you made it so that I never see them
Me: There is no controlling you. That is clear.
Me: Yes Jen I made it that way. I get that is how you feel.
STBX: Again you make these huge decisions without consulting anyone
STBX: We haven't even discussed a change of custody agreement or anything but now you're moving and just dropping them off to me without giving me any notice of time to prep or anything
Me: Yes I make decisions without consulting.
Me: As stated we can work in the transition.
STBX: When are you supposed to transfer?
By Nov 1st?
Before the end of the year?
What is your move date?
Not that you should even have one because this move hasn't been court approved but anyway
Me: I have no idea. It is a process. I have immigration papers to fill out and work with a relocation firm
STBX: So it can be anytime
Me: Well I will advise the court.
STBX: Ok well the house won't be ready till Feb so maybe we should aim for then
STBX: Also I am asking for 2900 a month in child support
Me: We can discuss when I know more when I have more info.
STBX: Seems there's lots to discuss
Me: Good luck. It will be whatever the formula calculates it to be
STBX: Well then good luck because I won't be abo to support the kids on anything less
Me: You can ask all you want. I have done the calculations a million ways
Me: Thats on you
STBX: No actually it's not
You have physical custody of the kids
Me: Goodnight. Not talking about this anymore.
Me: It is joint physical and legal.
STBX: Nothing to talk about it seems. It's all talk with you. When it comes right down to it, you'll never do the right thing for these kids
Me: You have 100k paid back to ur parents they can help to.
Me: I will pay what I owe.
STBX: For you infer that my parents should support our kids is ridiculous
STBX: I don't have to accept any changes then
You can stay there or move here and support the kids as you have
Me: So dont. S4 can still go for free and i will pay less in daycare
STBX: Ok then maybe that's best
Run the numbers
What can I say? I ran the numbers for me and that's what I would need to support the kids here
Me: Wow cant wait to put these texts in front of the judge
STBX: Ok well I'm the only one being fiscally pragmatic
Me: ZTBX u want this divorce so here are the consequences. You need to figure out how to pay for things.
Me: Yes u are fiscally pragmatic. Agree.
Me: With my money that by any law canadian or michigan there will be a limit.
STBX: I have figured it out thanks
STBX: You can agree to pay more than what is calculated
Me: I choose not to. Sorry paying the legal requirement only. Welcome to life.
STBX: I'm not trying to gouge you. I waived alimony. But if I have to clothe and feed and support these kids then that's the amount
Me: After divorce.
STBX: Ok well that's fine then we don't even bother making any changes
Me: Well guess what you would not get that much alimony either.
STBX: Well I still waived it. I always said I would
This is about the boys
Me: Fine. I will keep them in my custody then and at least we can kill the daycare for Jacob and all I need is daycare for Evan.
Me: Yep. Just took my 45K. Worth it for me.
Prepaid alimony.
STBX: Anyway sleep on it. Run the numbers for here in Canada vs. US. Maybe it is cheaper since Jacob would be in school for free. Maybe you can find a proper nanny or au pair like you wanted
Me: I sure will. And I have. Thanks. I have managed this long.
STBX: I get that you're angry and don't want to pay me child support. Or "do me any favors" as you put it
STBX: Ok well as I said think on it and see how it works out
Me: I am not angry. I am done and have moved on STBX.
STBX: Ok
Me: I provide for the boys like you said. If I choose to give more that is my choice.
Me: I have to establish myself again also. Hope you understand that.
Me: No matter how the custody arrangement is.
STBX: Not sure what that means exactly...establish yourself...
Me: Well sleep on it. If you still don't understand I will try and communicate more clearly tomorrow.
STBX: Not really sure what you're getting at with this but ok
I pray for your sons with all of my heart.
I hope you can both come out of the fog...reading the text exchange is very painful to do.
JK...
I hope you can step back and see your role in this...
You are reacting on emotions...
MWD has shared what is needed to control these...
There is no winner when emotions control what is said, done and acted upon.
SH,
This is no longer on emotions. I will save money financially by moving there and the upside is the boys do not have to travel. I will have my job and will be fine. S4 will go to pre-K for free and in 2 years S2 will go for free. I am not going to change the custody arrangement at all. It will be status quo and let her be bitter and emotional.
I just want to get out of limbo and live my life. I can't wait for this D to happen.
One thing I did hear during the LRT videos is that one man stated that LRT may not have saved his M but it did save his sanity. I feel that is what it has done with me.
So you are not going to wait a year before moving up there?
You recently told a poster that you made the decision to not move (the first time) b/c it was cheaper to live in Michagan. Now, it's cheaper to live in Canada.
Why do you think that moving closer to her will get you out of this limbo?
Have you told the lawyer you wanted to cancel the divorce?
Can you share some of the advice you received from your DB coach? Did s/he think you should move?
Sandi,
I am not going to wait a year. I redid the numbers, so with the exchange rate, cost of living is equal. Moving up three will put S4 in pre-K for free which will save me $1K per month. S2 will be able to go in 2 years which will save me 9K in 2 years. The remaining daycare/nanny costs are the same.
Moving anywhere, whether in Michigan or Toronto will get me out of this limbo. I am choosing Toronto because I do not want the boys travelling every month back and forth for a 10 hour round trip plus holidays/spring breaks. If I come to see my family 4 to 6 times per year that is good enough for me. I also just want the change for myself. I truly do not want her anymore. She is who she is and I don't want to be with a person who is so toxic and does not want to make the effort to understand me and my feelings.
As stated before, quality of life is better, and I do have friends there to GAL. There are more Greek people there and I would prefer if I do remarry to have them be Greek. If I happen to find someone who is not, that is great also, not sure I have an opinion either way about the future of being with someone else at this point.
I have told my L that I do not want the divorce. It is clearly stated in the psych eval also.
Apparently this Friday one of us just needs to go and confirm all the items we discussed, mediation, etc and then we will be D 21 days after judgment. Good riddens to STBX.
The crazy part is STBX is trying to extort money from me and saying it is for the boys. She wants $2900 per month in child support because that is what she calculated to live in the house her parents gifted her, I disagreed and stated that I have no issue paying the formulated amount. She says, you can choose to pay more. I told her I choose not to and so she is still good with being a 1/3 of the year mom.
So DB coach said he was glad to hear that I am over her. I did say I wanted a good co-parenting R with STBX and he liked that.
I asked how do I have healthy communication with STBX.
He gave me the following example:
If STBX says A, B, C, D.
I say: if I hear you correctly you said A, B, D.
Then she will say: No you forgot C.
Then I just say: Got it.
I leave it at that. Just repeat what she says and I am neither agreeing or disagreeing.
I think I did some of this through the last set of texts.
I spoke with my uncle and he said he would help financially to get a house there and come up with a plan to repay him the money. I do not plan on living near STBX. I will live where it suits me and the boys so that I am centrally located to work and downtown. DB coach state that as long as I feel that it would be a positive to the co-parenting R then he supported the move.
The more I read Jim's posts the more I feel like I'm being played. Is anything on these posts real?? I don't even understand why he posts here. He has not considered most of the advice. In fact his actions are completely opposite. Just crazy.
Jim, you may have a lot of good arguments for moving. It certainly sounds like the financial situation would improve.
But have you looked at how you make decisions? Sometimes we make a decision just because we can't stand the uncertainty. That's not a good reason. I see you go back and forth very, very quickly on big life decisions. You say one thing one day and another the next, and you declare your decisions to the world.
Why did you contact STBX about this? Shouldn't you have discussed it with your L and made sure you have all your ducks in a row first, legally? Is this part of a drama cycle?
Something happens to us if we've had a lot of upheaval and drama in our lives, and very high stress. We can become addicted to the chemical cycle in the body that is induced by high stress. We don't know how to handle life when it's level and even, we get restless and bored, so we create situations that are high drama in order to release something. I know this because I have to fight this in my own life, it's a result of having an alcoholic parent and other dramatic events in my life early on.
I read quite a bit of emotion in the text exchange. You snipe at her several times in that conversation. I understand doing that, I have done that plenty to WH, but at least I'm able to recognize that I do it and admit to it. You're not going to get anywhere until you see these things.
Painter
Yes I recognized I was snippy with STBX. It seems she and I are better at parallel parenting because unless I just do things her way, I get nothing but criticism. I do not deserve that from her anymore.
I did speak with L and she advises I do whatever I like after the D. I want to make sure the D happens also.
The next time STBX will find out if I am moving is when I file the paperwork to request change of domicile.
I have flip flopped for a year and am done. Just want to settle in a place and raise the boys and start to GAL. I am ready to meet new people and build some new friendships without STBX.
If she wants to push the SAHM thing through the legal system there, nothing I can do about it. On her.
I just want out of her life completely.
STBX calls last night at 6 pm. Background noise sounds like she is out at a restaurant. I answered the phone and said kids are eating I will have them call you back when they are done. She immediately says I would like to talk to you for a bit. Her voice is nice and soft and calm. I step outside and she asks if the transfer is going through. I said yes, I requested it Friday.
She then suggests we both go in front of the judge on Friday and request change of domicile if possible. She feels if we are both there and agree judge will grant it. I said OK. She also asked if she can ask for permission for Canadian Citizenship for the boys. I said yes, no problem.
I asked why she thought she would need $2900 per month if custody were to flip and she gets two thirds and she just reiterated that is what she calculated she would need. I stated for me to agree, what I would need is all receipts knowing that the money went directly to the boys and utilities of the house. She quickly responded well I am not doing that, they can stay with you then. I said OK.
She offered to take S2 during the day and pick up the boys from school in order to minimize the nanny/daycare costs. I said that is appreciated and we can discuss details another time.
She has overstepped every boundary that I would have communicated to her. This last one of exposing the boys to new OM4 has pushed my anger over the edge. The best thing I can do is protect them by having more overnights with me than her and give them as much love as I can. The help will be appreciated to ensure I have a nice organized place for the boys and get them into a solid routine. This will be a positive for the boys to have us in the same city.
I truly have nothing left to say to STBX. I will do my best to put a smile on my face when she is around the boys but that is it. I am not sure how I feel about her anymore, or if I will ever want her back. Her perception of family is very different than mine and clearly the two do not mesh. That's ok, I will continue to make the best of what I have with my sons.
I will also have to set very clear boundaries on her helping out in order to save costs. No OM around when she picks up kids from school or has S2. If she breaks that boundary then I have no issue paying for daycare. Is this a reasonable boundary to set?
This is a woman who says "you keep them, then" when she isn't getting what she wants money wise.
is this the main domicile you want the children to live in? is this the best situation for the kids?
As far as the no OM around, might have a really hard time with that one legally.
Ginger,
Yep, I picked a real winner. I can only control what I own and choose to manage the money instead of her. I let her buy whatever she wanted when she wanted. No more. Done with that.
In all honesty I do not believe that she will care if I move back to Michigan once the boys are older, especially if there is a promotional opportunity for me. She seems to be fine either way, but we will see when the time comes.
I am tired of speculating what will happen to her in the future. I only care about saving as much money as I can right now to do things with the boys on my time. Once they are all in school full time we will see what the best location is for the boys and me. All I know is I can save money over the next 3 years by moving there.
I can't control how many times she exposes OM to the boys. I can control whether she watches them though. No expectations. Will decide when she takes action. Not looking to bully her either way about OM.
Why are you so easily allowing the boys to change to Canadian Citizenship? I hope you discuss that with your L first!!!! Is it possible she can restrict you taking them out of the country with this change? Do you even think before you make grand gestures?
And going from her paying you $50 per month to even considering giving her $2900...WOW!
I can see how this behavior would drive her nuts. It's driving me nuts just watching this train wreck in slow motion.
Jim, why are you agreeing with her directly about important things? There is no need to change citizenship for the boys, they can have dual until 18.
I'm worried about your interactions with her.
Painter,
We are not changing citizenship, they will have dual citizenship.
mvgfwd,
I am just trying to get STBX's perspective. Not making a grand gesture. It is clear she does not respect me, if she did, she would have no problem showing me receipts for all the money. So we will keep the agreement as is.
I think you have proven you can handle the kids without your W. I think you love your boys and want what is best for them. I also feel that you are so weary........and down deep in your heart, you want your W to have the kids full time and you work. That is as close to the way life was before all this mess started. It is exhausting to hold down a job, keep up a home, and raise a big family alone. I get it.
I think you are so tired........and see no relief in the near future, that you are willing to give her the kids and every penny she wants, just to get out. You want out of this situation. You want to be free of it, focus on work and GAL, and you'll still see the boys......but it won't be the pressure you feel right now.
I won't say anymore about the move........or at least, I will try not to say anything else.
mvgfwd,
I am just trying to get STBX's perspective. Not making a grand gesture. It is clear she does not respect me, if she did, she would have no problem showing me receipts for all the money. So we will keep the agreement as is.
Jim....
I don't think that you are trying to see her perspective as much as you are trying to still try to "fix" the relationship...
Still so much of you doing what she wants, she needs, she asks for...
You are STILL letting her control YOUR life...
Until you can find the strength to stand up, and set the bar, you are always gonna limbo under the bar...
None of this, should be about what the hell she wants right now...
She is f%#%ing another dude, and you are still letting her tell you what you should be doing...
Stop looking and asking her, how and what YOU need to do, to lead yourself...
And she is correct with her above exchange with you, you say one thing, then do something else.
You are all over the map Jim.
When does it stop ???
Stand up for you....
You don't want to be here, 5 years from now, talking about how you F'ed up, and would have done this differently, and being the victim once again...
Stop the cycle...
Lead your family...
Show the boys what a strong, confidant man looks like through adversity...
So I ask you, yet again...
What do YOU want Jim...
Nothing about her, nothing about the kids..
Nothing about what is easier, cause well....F#%$ easy...
What is right for Jim...
???
JK:
There is lots of good advice and support here. From the financial perspective alone, I can see where you are coming from. The workload of 5 young children is massive. I certainly understand giving that money to their mother as opposed to a team of babysitters, day care, etc, makes sense.
In my area, many people choose to spend their money "internally" as opposed to spending it on day care. Families, buy larger homes and share with Grandparents, some build in-law suites, some sponsor a relative to move to Canada from overseas. In the end, lots of money get's spent so the children are with people that share the identical values, culture, etc of the parents.
Day care and babysitters have many logistical issues too i.e pick up times, policies re: sick children, splitting children of different ages up, etc.
Daycare has many positives too. To this day I still have friends from the daycare centre D20 went to.
You are not thinking that your $ is a bribe to keep W in your life - we know that. You maybe surrendering a little - but life is about giving and taking.
You are taking a huge step i.e. moving, transfer, etc to what appears to be in pursuit of W. Only you know if that is the case. She will definitely think this is the case.
Take precautions, view this as a exchange of services for $ and a career opportunity for you. With the huge benefit of your children being closer to their mother and her family.
So save some $ for you, build a new support network, continue with your GAL and you and your boys will be fine.
I dunno, I see Jim doing this so his children won't be carted back and forth for ten hour drives constantly. I don't really "feel" a pursuing vibe in his move, rather more of a logistical adjustment. Also her parents may be able to help with the children, I always say you can never have too many people around to love on your kids.
I only have 3 children (5, 3, 8 month baby) and I am hanging on by a thread. I would probably be admitted for psych eval if you made that number bigger.
One boundary I would put in place is no longer discussing finances with WW though. If she starts the convo let her know it's no longer up for discussion and the L's can hash it out. She only has as much power as you give her, that text was giving her IMMENSE amount of space in your head. You only pay what the courts require, full stop. If she starts to pitch a fit, "I'm sorry you feel this way. For simplicity sake I will let the lawyers hash this out." And done.
OK so some positive things over the last few days.
Boss and HR met, they are working on my transition to get to Toronto ASAP. I may even be able to get a place where the company pays for it which will save me a huge amount of money.
Based on my position and others in my group, it is more cost effective for the company to rent a condo/apartment long term than put us up in hotels.
STBX calls and speaks with the boys last night. She did not sound like she was in a good mood. The two youngest did not want to speak with her. When I took the phone and said that the little ones did not want to talk she became upset and told me I need to put them on the phone. I validated and said I can understand that this is frustrating when the kids do not want to speak with you. She said, I am tired of hearing I understand from you. I just said OK.
She then asked if I spoke to my L about change of domicile and I updated STBX and said yes, it will have to happen after judgment is completed.
STBX then asks, is this a good move for you, you always make uninformed decisions. I said, I do not know. I do know that I do not want the boys driving back and forth once a month and that I will save on daycare. Above and beyond that I cannot predict the future. She did not have a reaction or comment to this.
I then politely said that I needed to hang up as I had things to take care of and said goodbye.
I spoke to DB coach today. Gave him the update of what happened since Friday when I told STBX I was done with her. DB coach said I made some progress with some of my statements by expressing myself with "I" statements. I feel like my heart is broken. I feel that the boys hearts are broken also. He said these were all good things to express.
He asked what made STBX become more soft spoken on Sunday and wanted to support me with watching the boys in the afternoons when I move to Toronto. I said I did not know other than she understand that the boys and I are hurt based on the statements I made above.
He stated I need to continue to be compassionate and detach lovingly in order to rebuild the relationship whether it is for co-parenting or whatever else may come of it.
This is very hard to do. I feel like I have to eliminate any jealousy I have, swallow my pride, kill my ego and have no emotion whatsoever in order to continue to understand her.
Las thing DB coach said is I need to collaborate with STBX. Take things slow and think before I speak in order to ensure I am clearly understanding her and ensure that what I tell her comes out appropriately and not as a criticism or negative. I need to use we statements. For example when STBX says she needs $2900 per month in child support I need to say "I want to be fiscally responsible and we need to understand the budget in order to come to an agreement".
Tomorrow morning STBX has to go in front of the judge and answer yes no questions and in no more than 21 days the D will be official.
I do not want to be punitive to STBX or continue the push pull that we have been doing or she perceives I am doing.
The journey to just get to a better co-parenting relationship has just begun.
"STBX then asks, is this a good move for you, you always make uninformed decisions." My jaw dropped open - even STBX sees this.
STBX did ask if I ran the numbers and I told her that I did and will be able to manage.
STBX continues to change the story every time we have a discussion. There is no consistency in her words or statements other than her own selfishness.
I gave my reasons.
I want my boys to be able to see their mother without having to be carted around in a minivan once a month for 10 hours.
I want to build a good co-parenting relationship regardless of her actions. This will still take a lot of work on my end to get there.
I want to focus on improving myself (physically and emotionally) not for her but for me and the boys so I can be around as long as I can for them.
I have learned a lot of lessons through this experience.
There is no "the one".
I need to learn what healthy communication with every person that I interact with.
I need to control my jealousy.
I need to let go of my ego and pride.
I create my own life and happiness.
I cannot control others nor want to control them.
There are some quotes that I have read in various books I think about often.
"The person is more important than the relationship itself."
From the book "More than Two: A Practical Guide to Ethical Polyamory" by Franklin Veaux
"I will not let my loyalty become slavery. If what I bring to the table isn't appreciated, I will walk away and let the other eat alone." Josie Picken
"If a partner respects me, I don't need rules to make them treat me well, and if a partner doesn't respect me, rules are just a bandaid that aren't ultimately going to help" Franklin Veaux
"If you love a flower, don't pick it up. Because if you pick it up it dies and ceases to be what you love. So if you love a flower, let it be. Love is not about possession. Love is about appreciation." Osho
These books that I have read talk about ethics whether monogamous or non-monogamous. It puts an interesting perspective that I have never seen on relationships or was just completely blind about.
Is non-monogamy any different from being single and dating?
In today's society is monogamy really monogamy with the divorce rates as high as they are?
I am not sure that I have answers to any of these questions or that I ever will. When I think about them though, it calms me and gives me some peace about the reality of life and relationships. It comforts me and helps me recognize that I will be fine with or without STBX in my life, regardless of what I prefer.
I want to lovingly detach. If I can get to that point, I hope to find peace with myself and become a better person than who I was a year ago.
If the best R I can have with my STBX is a healthy co-parenting relationship, I would prefer to have that over a high conflict one. Although there will bumps along the road and arguments, divorced or married, I would prefer to have my boys see both parents with smiles on their faces when they are in the same room than anger, sadness or whatever other emotion either one of us are feeling.
There was another article I read on a blog from a divorced single mom that encouraged new divorcee's to focus on themselves first and their kids second. When I first read the article I had the same reaction as others who posted comments about the author being selfish.
I then thought about my sitch and others sitches and what we all try and advise each other on these boards. Focus on you first and your children second. Married or not the breakdown in an R comes from the WAS/wayward spouse's perception. It is a catch 22.
I truly wish the laws were different and there was never a law of no-fault divorce. I also truly wish that counseling would be a mandatory requirement for those who want to get married.
If these things were implemented into our system it may not significantly reduce the divorce rate but it sure would educate people on how hard it is to do the work to make a marriage successful.
I am truly blessed to have my five boys and to have met my former wife. She is a good person that just needs to be where she is now.
Sometimes the best way to "co-parent" is to use the Parallel Parenting Model. At least for a year or two.
In most situations like yours I recommend parallel parenting for the betrayed spouse no matter how good the other parent is seemingly being. It's just emotionally unhealthy for a victim of such abuse to be the one in there trying to be the bigger person or the "adult" with their very recent abuser.
In case like yours it's just mandatory.
You can't co-parent with a lying terrorist and she takes all your communications as attempts to control her.
Your comment about wanting receipts probably doesn't work for her because she's more worried about what her boyfriend(s) with say or think.
To her "co-parenting" is a means of manipulation and control of you by her. Parallel parenting shuts that down and enables YOU to heal.
Perhaps it's fine to move there as long as you clear it with your attorneys and; hopefully, your employer clearly defines it as a temporary assignment or something should you want to come back and she sues in Ontario trying to maintain residency/custody "as is" there. Establishing jurisdiction there is probably a huge risk so keeping an address in Michigan and not getting them dual citizenship might be safer but I have no idea. Talk to your lawyers. Get it in writing BEFORE you go there.
Parallel parenting isn't far off from LRT either. Being in Toronto will enable them to maintain and keep their relationship with mom; but, otherwise, such relationship developing and maintaining will be all on her.
I think this might have all gone down better emotionally for you if you had waited a few months to do this. After several months of reality sinking in for your STBXW sinking in and her failing to exercise her visitation (but before she got the whole summer next year) your decision to move there would have been met with relief and appreciation. Before the divorce was final just makes it sound like you didn't like the outcome, hate being stuck with the kids so much and maybe are looking for a way to MAKE her help you while maintaing control over HER kids. Not saying that's truth at all --- just how a self entitled manipulative wayward wife would maybe see things.
Antio
Think of it this way....
Is is controlling to try to make your ex-wife collaborate with you?
She has no interest in real or meaningful collaboration. Anything you suggest or offer she has to filter through her own wayward self-entitled abusive head and how it will effect HER and HER relationship with OM#4,5, 6 or 7.
Parallel parenting will enable you to truly drop the rope and, LOVINGLY, allow her to hit rock bottom someday and recognize you really truly love and care for her children, you moved to Toronto for the kids only, you aren't trying to control her and she was a fool to leave you.
Just google parallel parenting and read up on it. There are many professionals that feel it is the better way to go in high conflict divorce/custody cases.
If your wife STAYS on her wayward path, you may very well want to move back to Michigan in a few years and make her vacation mom. The "mom" you once knew her to be would be forever gone and your kids would probably be better off NOT in her destuctive emotionally abusive mindset and lifestyle on a daily or even weekly basis. It may come to having to protect your children from her (and the men she brings into her life - - men who chase after women with young boys they can abuse).
Sometimes the best way to "co-parent" is to use the Parallel Parenting Model. At least for a year or two.
In most situations like yours I recommend parallel parenting for the betrayed spouse no matter how good the other parent is seemingly being. It's just emotionally unhealthy for a victim of such abuse to be the one in there trying to be the bigger person or the "adult" with their very recent abuser.
In case like yours it's just mandatory.
You can't co-parent with a lying terrorist and she takes all your communications as attempts to control her.
GB, thanks for the advice. Others have offered the same and after today's conversation with xW I will say I agree.
STBX goes to court this morning then sends me a text asking why I did not sign off on the agreement. Then she says now my L has to go back to court again to have it entered.
I did not see the text as I was working and then she calls and asks me the same questions above. I stated I did not want this and was unaware I had to sign anything, my L is still reviewing the judgment. She then went on to say every time I text and talk to L it costs me money. I agreed.
She then asks why I couldn't I have gone to court since I live her instead of making her drive and have a 10 hour round trip. I just validated with I bet this is very frustrating that you have to drive 10 hours to get this done.
And then more blah blah blah from her. I then just politely said I needed to get back to work and said goodbye and hung up.
The projection continues and somehow she feels I still need to help her get this done.
Your comment about wanting receipts probably doesn't work for her because she's more worried about what her boyfriend(s) with say or think.
To her "co-parenting" is a means of manipulation and control of you by her. Parallel parenting shuts that down and enables YOU to heal.
Agree, I will definitely set up a parallel parenting app to discuss things with STBX so I can heal. Her worries are hers to deal with. I need to focus on me and the boys. I see that she perceives I am trying to control her. If she ever brings it up, I will have to address it differently.
Perhaps it's fine to move there as long as you clear it with your attorneys and; hopefully, your employer clearly defines it as a temporary assignment or something should you want to come back and she sues in Ontario trying to maintain residency/custody "as is" there. Establishing jurisdiction there is probably a huge risk so keeping an address in Michigan and not getting them dual citizenship might be safer but I have no idea. Talk to your lawyers. Get it in writing BEFORE you go there.
The job is temporary, 3 year assignment. I will have to see what I can do about protecting my time with the boys prior to moving. More to come on that issue later.
Parallel parenting isn't far off from LRT either. Being in Toronto will enable them to maintain and keep their relationship with mom; but, otherwise, such relationship developing and maintaining will be all on her.
I think this might have all gone down better emotionally for you if you had waited a few months to do this. After several months of reality sinking in for your STBXW sinking in and her failing to exercise her visitation (but before she got the whole summer next year) your decision to move there would have been met with relief and appreciation. Before the divorce was final just makes it sound like you didn't like the outcome, hate being stuck with the kids so much and maybe are looking for a way to MAKE her help you while maintaing control over HER kids. Not saying that's truth at all --- just how a self entitled manipulative wayward wife would maybe see things.
Antio
I get your point that she may perceive this as me being stuck with the kids. At this point I really don't owe her an answer on that. I did not ask for her help in watching them when I move there. She offered when we spoke last Sunday, but her actions will speak to that. I have no confidence that she will consistently come and watch the boys 5 days a week after school. So the first or second time she slips and changes the schedule I will just have to get the babysitter/nanny back in the picture.
Think of it this way....
Is is controlling to try to make your ex-wife collaborate with you?
She has no interest in real or meaningful collaboration. Anything you suggest or offer she has to filter through her own wayward self-entitled abusive head and how it will effect HER and HER relationship with OM#4,5, 6 or 7.
Agree 100%
Parallel parenting will enable you to truly drop the rope and, LOVINGLY, allow her to hit rock bottom someday and recognize you really truly love and care for her children, you moved to Toronto for the kids only, you aren't trying to control her and she was a fool to leave you.
Yes, and this is a potentially years down the road.
Just google parallel parenting and read up on it. There are many professionals that feel it is the better way to go in high conflict divorce/custody cases.
I did research a few apps before. Will review again and propose to STBX to use one of these in the future.
If your wife STAYS on her wayward path, you may very well want to move back to Michigan in a few years and make her vacation mom. The "mom" you once knew her to be would be forever gone and your kids would probably be better off NOT in her destuctive emotionally abusive mindset and lifestyle on a daily or even weekly basis. It may come to having to protect your children from her (and the men she brings into her life - - men who chase after women with young boys they can abuse).
This concerns me the most. xW has stated that she does not want our children using guns for hunting or riding motorcycles yet she is now dating a police officer who has his own personal motorcycle. She is at the peak of rebellion.
I agree with your last paragraph. I will take it day by day and see how it goes.
Thank you again GB!
She's going to come and watch them at YOUR RESIDENCE.
That'll never work.
For now and maybe for a year or two - parallel parenting --- I'd go there and set up exactly what you would have done in Michigan. The only thing your moving there helps with is that she'll actually be able to take her "visitation" time with the kids, have a real relationship with them and the kids won't have to go 10 hours back and forth across the Blue Water Bridge. Other than that - it's all on her.
If she BEGS to let her take care of the kids during the day instead of daycare or whatever, THEN, maybe (through a third party negotiator) you come to a solution whereby you drop the kids off at Grandma's or some other third parties house and she can pick them up and spend time with them or watch them there for the day. Such access would be conditional upon her adopting and adhering to your boundaries - which, for now, include Parallel Parenting guidelines in High Conflict divorces.
Don't give up your overnights. Ever. And for at least one year, do not trade or ask her to help you with custody time. Make other arrangements.
You never lay eyes on your ex-wife. It's too hurtful and you'll be trying to take her temperature all the time.
If, by chance, she wants to reconcile, she'll need to communicate that appropriate and do not take the bait unless and until she has made solid agreements on "no contact" with any of her OM's and agree to work a marital recovery program. Don't move her in or let her stay over and mess up the kids more by giving them fake hope. Ask your lawyers how she might go about trying to fool you into a fake recovery only to find yourself in a Canadian court fighting for custody yourself in a matter of months, weeks or just one year.
You MAY very well get blow back. A lot of courts and uninformed persons are motivated to punish you for seemingly NOT co-parenting and coming to table again and again to "collaborate" as though YOU are the problem. They'll say things like "you need to be the bigger person" or "you should co-parent 'for the kids'". Parallel Custody IS co-parenting and IS the recommended plans in your situation. Learn the programs in and out so you can defend yourself from the 'do gooders" who just don't understand and feel compelled to criticize you. Even teachers might try this and refuse to do separate conferences or whatever. In addition, I'd expect your ex-wife to try to take that road too as she charts a path herself to attempt to win back partial or more custody herself someday. She''ll resist parallel parenting (mostly because it cuts off her ability to criticize, control and blame you). But that's where parallel parenting really works best. All the sudden in a year or two of distance, you'll be healed and healthy having moved on with your life and she'll be pushing for "collaborative co-parenting" thinking she's winning some long term war for the hearts, minds and physical custody of your kids. At that time, "collaboration" becomes a heck of a lot easier for everyone.
OR she stays an evil wayward witch and you just move back to Michigan in 3 years under the current custody deal....she'll not have the money to use her monthly visitation so she'll just be stuck being summer vacation mom. She'll end up 3 years behind on her child support and she'll never be able to even file a motion for modification in Michigan until she pays up.
I'd caution you to not multiply your complications by getting overly involved with a new woman in Toronto. Be up front with anyone you may date that you will probably move back to Michigan when your "assignment" is up. Also, your children should be aware as well telling them this is just a rare and timely temporary assignment that works out with the divorce nicely since mom lives in Toronto. But you're still a US citizen and your family is in Michigan and you'll probably all have to move back to Michigan in 3 years and mom will hopefully come too but probably not and that would be her choice. Then in 3 years, when your ex-wife surely will try to make it seem like you are stealing her kids away from her, your kids will already know it wasn't ever permanent and will have known all along it was going to happen. If you STAY (or extend the 'temporary" assignment longer) - everyone celebrates versus that just being what's expected.
Another reason to resist entanglements with any women for a few years is because you've got 5 kids who have one parent so wrapped up in themselves and their boyfriends that having another wrapped up in them might be a nice counterbalance. If you end up dating, don't involve your kids for a long long time.
eirene
GB,
This is a great suggestion and what I plan to execute. Thank you again.
Last night xW calls while we were at a cousin's birthday party. I did not pick up the phone. She followed up with a text which I saw later and then tried to call multiple times on both my personal and work phone while I was driving home. Boys were asleep in the car. When we arrived home I put them straight to bed.
xW texts this morning saying it has been 12 hours and I have not responded to her texts messages.
I responded with the following email back to her as soon as I had time today.
Hello xW,
It must be very frustrating that I have not responded to your texts to speak with the boys.
We had a lot going on this weekend. Birthday party and they fell asleep in the car.
I suggest we schedule some set times for you to call and speak with them. Please advise on what you feel would be some appropriate days and times.
I also feel it is not OK to call my work phone anymore unless it has to do directly with the boys when they are spending time with you and it is an emergency.
Did I do alright?
Great suggestions from GB.
How would you have reacted if you called to talk to kids and she didn't answer for 12 hours?
I think validating how she feels when you were the one who didn't answer, is a little weird. Why didn't you just send her a text much earlier? Or let her know up front that you would be busy?
Great suggestions from GB.
How would you have reacted if you called to talk to kids and she didn't answer for 12 hours?
Probably would have felt the same as her, but adding sleep in there (which I fell asleep early also) and having 5 kids to take care of and get to school in the morning doesn't leave a whole lot of free time. Do I need to explain myself that I fell asleep early to xW?
I have been going non stop and had a lot to do. My intent was not to ignore or dismiss her text. Just did not get to it until then. (Based on the advice of the DB coach, as long as I am not doing it intentionally then that is OK whether she agrees or not).
I think validating how she feels when you were the one who didn't answer, is a little weird. Why didn't you just send her a text much earlier? Or let her know up front that you would be busy?
I answered via email to the text she sent me this morning as soon as I could.
She randomly calls when she feels it is appropriate for her. In the past I have been consistent and have always given her a heads up that I would like to speak with the boys at a certain time.
For me, she cannot just pop up when she feels like it just because she has free time in her schedule.
Great suggestions from GB.
How would you have reacted if you called to talk to kids and she didn't answer for 12 hours?
Probably would have felt the same as her, but adding sleep in there (which I fell asleep early also) and having 5 kids to take care of and get to school in the morning doesn't leave a whole lot of free time. Do I need to explain myself that I fell asleep early to xW?
I have been going non stop and had a lot to do. My intent was not to ignore or dismiss her text. Just did not get to it until then. (Based on the advice of the DB coach, as long as I am not doing it intentionally then that is OK whether she agrees or not).
I think validating how she feels when you were the one who didn't answer, is a little weird. Why didn't you just send her a text much earlier? Or let her know up front that you would be busy?
I answered via email to the text she sent me this morning as soon as I could.
She randomly calls when she feels it is appropriate for her. In the past I have been consistent and have always given her a heads up that I would like to speak with the boys at a certain time.
For me, she cannot just pop up when she feels like it just because she has free time in her schedule.
JK,
I would like to know what it is you are looking for here in this community.
From your earliest posts to this most recent one you ask for advice and then basically justify why what you do or think is right and why the advice you have been given is not.
Do you know the term "Askhole"?
If not look it up.
It is meant to be funny...but only because it is so true for many.
I really hope everything turns out well for your boys and I pray you are able to step back one day and look in the mirror and see things in a different light.
Much wisdom and encouragement here in this community and yes there are many opinions, but often when one looks outside themself and into the consistent patterns in advice and information, often there lies truth and sound principles...
Self awareness and sound principles are powerful things.
Good luck brother.
Your boys deserve nothing less than truth and sound principles in their lives. Be the one to provide that for them and you will find blessing beyond what could be imagined.
Jim
Looks OK to me.
You can text, respond later to WW, set up a Pavlov saved text message for quick use.
I sense you are overburdened with 5 boys and just being a dad who stands is fine in my book.
V
SH,
Just trying to work on myself to ensure I am staying positive. Always open to new perspectives or approaches.
V,
Yes, need to set up a quick response on the phone when she calls and we are busy.
It was a busy week. Running around to get clothes and baptismal dresses for the little girl I am baptizing this Sunday. Had a lot to catch up on since there was a little more on my plate this weekend than normal.
I bought the LRT videos from MWD. It says although hard to do when S has an affair, you should still try and do family things together.
Probably not a good idea for me at this point since I still wear my heart on my sleeve. I do not think I have the strength to fake it. Sticking to the NC for now and will do my best to be friendly and upbeat on the phone.
Baby steps.
I think you're doing okay. I am amazed at how hard you are working with 5 boys and working and and and...
I get it, truly I do. I think creating a healthy boundary of specific times when WW calls to talk to the boys is a good idea. This isn't control but rather a way to facilitate communication between her and her children. I think you validated well and came up with a solution based answer to a re-occurring problem.
The oldest is only 7 so it gets pretty hard to manage this but MAYBE if you can afford it add a cheap home phone or get a cell phone line for the kids to share and communicate with mom. The "mom phone". She can text and leave messages for the kids and they can call her on it and you can give each child the opportunity to call her when you tuck them in at night (be sure to put a tracker or something on it so you can locate it in your house as the young ones will walk off and put it who knows where.
Then you communicate to your wife that you are looking to facilitate and ease communications between her and the 5 boys but you are not necessarily responsible for making it always happen. If it works, the cell phone could even travel with them to mom's someday and be YOUR method of communication circumnavigating your wife.
You merely provide the means of communication. You aren't responsible if your STBXW simply refuses to use it. Contacting you should be for emergencies only. Any other call or text message to your phone gets ZERO response from you.
So running around with the kids and the "mom phone" rings, you hand it to a kid and they answer and talk or not. If it goes to voice mail, you let her know you will play if for the kids later (so she's not yelling or complaining to you since it will be played for the kids without prescreening it). Put her on speed dial and hit send when you tuck a child in and they either get her or her voicemail and leave her a message. It's a good time for the kids to talk too as they settle in and are less distracted by friends, brothers, toys, electronics and playing.
Eventually the oldest child becomes in charge of the phone and can use it himself as long as he handles the "mom call" stuff????
Don't know if that's right but certainly beats all the mental anguish you're going through now trying to take care of 5 boys by yourself while validating and managing the feelings of your abandoing anger bitter STBXW that should be there helping, not making things more difficult for you.
You teach people how to treat you and she has absolutely no respect for you right now. I'd estimate your attempts at "validation" are just super annoying to her right now. She probably just thinks it's a sarcastic mocking part of your game of manipulation and control. When you are this far along in a high conflict divorce, there is nothing authentic appearing about "validating" your adversary. If and when you two are actually respectively communicating in a trusting manner, validation might help foster some understanding between the two of you. It's a decent listening technique but I don't see it as very attractive the way you appear to be using it. She hates you right now because you didn't give princess everything her entitled little wayward heart desired. You validating her right now just angers and confuses her. IMO, you are better off yourself emotionally disengaging.
Had a pretty good week with the boys. Took them to a trunk or treat this evening at S4 and S2s daycare. They had fun. Busy weekend coming up with the baptism on Sunday. Lots of prepping to do tomorrow. Getting haircuts and picking up all our suits from drycleaners and the normal day to day stuff.
xW texts this afternoon to schedule next months visit with the boys.
xW: Do the boys have Nov. 11th off?
Me: The boys do not have November 11th off
xW: Ok. Are you taking the whole thanksgiving weekend off to be with them? Your family generally does the dinner on Thursday, right? So maybe we can meet the next morning for me to have them? Would that work?
Me: I already have plans made for that weekend.
xW: Ok. Well I guess the weekend of the 11th then.
Me: Ok
Me: Please ensure you have transportation to pick them up.
xW: I thought we were swapping cars? Until the Hyundai is fixed and sold.
Me: I need the van
xW: Seriously?
Me: Yes. I need the van
xW: Is there another weekend perhaps when you don't need the van?
xW: Hey, Jim how about being a good and decent father and helping the kids maintain a relationship with their mother. How about that?
xW: No response?
xW: Fine I'll figure it out. I'll see you in London on the 11h at 5pm
Me: 5 p.m. doesn't work for me. I work until 4:30. We can meet at 8 p.m.
xW: No we can meet at 5pm as per the agreement
xW: Thanks
Me: That is no longer the agreement
xW: Yes it is actually
Me: Then I suggest you come pick them up after school
xW: No that's not the agreement
Me: 8 p.m.
xW: I guess I'll see you in court then
xW: Look I don't want to drag this into court
xW: The agreement says 5pm
xW: But if you want to do 8pm then we meet at 8pm on the Sunday. I have the right to a full weekend.
xW: Please confirm.
xW: When is your transfer scheduled?
xW: Things will be a whole lot easier to coordinate then...
Me: xW I feel that is too late for the boys to come back on Sunday. They will be exhausted for school on Monday then.
xW: I understand your concern
xW: But I'm entitled to a full weekend
xW: So either meet me at 5pm on the Friday or it'll be 8pm on Sunday
Me: Agree. I suggest finding another alternative so you can have 48 hrs.
xW: What is it you suggest
Me: There is flexibility in your schedule to pick them up from school.
xW: No
Me: Boys are in bed by 8 so they need to be home by 8. It is a 2.5 hour drive for them.
Me: From London
xW: Then I suggest we meet at the scheduled time of 5pm
xW: End of story
Me: I work. It doesnt work for me.
xW: Ok well when I guess you can explain that to the judge
xW: That's not an argument
Me: I get this is frustrating.
Me: Your right. It is not an arguement. It is a fact.
xW: Well meet at 8pm then
Me: Agree for Friday.
xW: See you on the 11th at 8pm
xW: In London
xW: Update on the transfer?
Me: What time on Sunday then?
Me: 6?
xW: 8pm
Me: I feel you are not considering the needs of the boys by asking to meet so late.
xW: You're entitled to your feelings
Me: 6 pm
Me: Their bed time is 8
Going to have to sort this out with L's again since she does not know that the world doesn't revolve around the princess.
Up early this morning. Had a dream that xW and I were ML. I have no idea what the dream meant. I only know I still feel connected to her.
IDK if I handled yesterday's texts ok. LRT says to be friends and do family things together but IDK how to do that since xW oversteps all boundaries I have.
I stated to her that her cell phone will be cancelled by the end of this month. She still has not changed it over or given me the subsidy money for S6 that goes to her account.
Only going to make these statements once to her and let her figure out the rest.
Going to try and get another hour of sleep. Hope everyone has a great weekend.
Hi JimKao, I see LRT as more about letting your W see that friends and family time won't really be happening. LRT is about you moving ahead with your own plans and living your life independently to your W. The result of this is that she begins to feel what life post D would be like - but that's a by product really.
My view would be that contact would be minimal and business only. I don't really think you can weave friends and family time into that.
JMHO of course...
Thank you Sotto,
The thing I struggle with is the LRT videos stated the complete opposite. Most WAS' have no emotional connection anymore to the LBS. I feel for them it would be easier to do "family" things together because I feel the WAS is fake.
The entitled princess uses every resource she can to get what she wants. I won't analyze. For me the right thing to do is not enable the bad behavior, that is not for her, it is for me to protect myself, my feelings and my emotions.
JK,
What does the agreement say?
JK,
What does the agreement say?
Good question. This was detailed and in the agreement, wasn't it?
I don't understand why you keep calling her "princess" like you are mad but in my opinion you are the enabler. Why would you uproot those boys closer to a mom who has proven time and time again she has no time for them?
Time for you to be all into those boys and let your EX be. It is starting to feel like you are in a competition of wills with her. Let her go and take care of those boys please
SH, Ginger,
It was for the temporary parenting time. It was not detailed when we went to mediation so xW is going by the previous agreement. My emotions were running high during mediation so I completely forgot to add specific times.
I can still have my L drive this to add since the official D will not be done until the 11th of November. xW will perceive this to be controlling to get her back, oh well, her problem.
I can also just let it slide since I will be moving there in a couple of months, I feel even then, I should put something specific that says xW can pick up boys after school and S2 from either daycare or meet sitter somewhere on a Friday and then meet at a neutral place on the Sunday at a specific time when she has to drop them back off when she has them every other weekend.
Yes, at this point it would seem that every detail that can be put in place can eliminate, if not at least minimize the "petty" back and forth texts.
A little surprised the L and mediators did not help with this...although I understand the responsibility is really on you and ww...and ultimately you, if you are ever going to be able to stay out of the trap conversations with WW.
Most divorce agreements have times in them to avoid this sort of conflict, especially in high conflict divorces. My ex and I have it but at this point it's there but we are flexible with each other because well, through the 8 years we managed to work together on this.
Your W was right. You really do make decisions really quickly. I believe you do that because you are trying to get out of pain. Each rash decision you make is because you think it's going to give you some relief. yoi quickly stitch up wounds hoping they will close and heal. But they reopen because it's not done timely with precision and thought. ( yes, I suk at metaphors).
I agree you keep calling her some entitled princess but you keep enabling her. But with the loose boundaries, not thoroughly thought through agreements which are done on the emotion at the time and change 5 min after they are made, everything is loosely interpreted and then she goes through the loopholes. Or maybe she really doesn't understand what the deal is right now. I'm a little confused because it changes daily.
Slow down. think. Because I know you are in pain but these rash decisions may ease it or give you comfort for the moment, but they just keep reopening again.
Ginger,
My input to her was about the boys and their well being on the exchange time. For me, the time doesn't make a difference but since they go to bed at 8 or 8:30 at the latest I do not want them to be exhausted the next day.
I stood my ground for what I believe was right for them.
xW sends a text today asking to speak with the boys prior to bed. We were at the baptism, I just happened to check my phone and sent a two word reply back "at baptism".
xW sends a text back later asking me to tell the parents of the baby I baptized congratulations. She also asked me to tell the boys that she is missing them and was thinking of them tonight and asked if I could have them call her tomorrow.
I have not responded yet. Friend of mine suggested I respond with the following:
I will do my best. Please understand tomorrow is Halloween and with me working and getting 5 boys ready it will be tough. If you do not hear from us tomorrow I will have them call you on Tuesday.
On a more positive note, the baptism was awesome. The boys participated in the event and had fun at the reception. They want to go to more baptisms! If felt nice to get lots of compliments on how I was doing with the boys and how well mannered they were.
We all danced and celebrated. I have not smiled so much in a very long time.
I do not get to see the little girl I baptized often. She was a little fussy in the beginning when she was being held by her mom and dad. She then wanted me to hold her, she calmed down right away. I started to shoosh in her little ear and it seemed to sooth her. She laid her head on my shoulder and was quiet for time I was holding her.
Had lots of compliments from the grandparents also on the little outfits I picked out for the baby also. They asked my sister if she had helped and my sister said nope, it was selected by my brother. (I did have a little help with a few things from my sis). She is a great sibling.
One last thing that was bittersweet, there was a song that played and I danced alone while everyone clapped (zembekiko dance). A lot of Greek songs are about heartbreak. Well of course this one hit the nail on the head and I did not realize it until it was too late to stop dancing. It took everything I had to hold back tears. This song was essentially about a wayward spouse. I made it through, let it go and enjoyed the rest of the night. Even got my boys to come dance with me to a really fun Greek song that had simple steps to it. It was very cute. I was proud to be their with them and teach them some new things.
So today xW's cell phone was turned off.
So today xW's cell phone was turned off.
Lack of payment? Something I've done so I can always ensure I can reach the kids is skype on their iPads.
No, not lack of payment. I wrote her an email 3 weeks ago stating I will not be paying for her cell as of the end of the month.
Do you have a way to contact her immediately in case of emergencies? Tough with kids to not be able to access her. You may care more than she does which will make it more difficult.
j20,
Yes, I can contact her through email. I have her parent's house number also if there is an emergency.
xW calls my cell 3 times tonight and work phone 2 times and also sends an email about me not calling her tonight to speak with the boys and how I did not giver her notice about cancelling the cell phone.
Here is her email:
Jim,
I've asked two days in a row now to speak to the kids to no avail. I understood that yesterday you were at a function but I did ask to speak to them tonight. When I tried to call you, I realized my phone is out of service. Did you cut off my phone? I was willing to pay the bill until I found an appropriate plan here. There was no need to that. Nor was it courteous not to even inform me.
Please respond.
Here is how I plan to respond tomorrow morning:
xW,
Thank you for understanding that we were at the baptism.
Between work and getting 5 boys ready for Halloween we had a full day. I realize that you miss them and will have them contact you tomorrow.
With regards to the cell phone, when we spoke on October 17th, at that time, I suggested you transfer your service by the end of October. It must have felt terrible to realize your cell phone was disconnected.
I am sure she will not like the response. I did invite her to come trick or treating with the boys which she declined and said she had plans this past weekend. She also stated in her email that she was willing to pay the bill (she never mentioned to me in our verbal conversations). I did verbally advise her on Oct 17th that I would be cancelling the phone and suggested she transfer her number (I emailed my L about the phone on the 17th).
If there are any suggestions on a better way to respond, please feel free to revise my response.
First, don't tell her anything verbally that you don't also send in text or email.
Second, the letter is too wordy and pointless, almost like your trying to stir the pot. Just set the time for the next communication with the boys. Nothing more.
Jim, the only thing I would change is the last sentence. Your validation is a little over the top so it could almost sound sarcastic. Maybe rather just say 'I'm sorry it took you by surprise, I thought I was clear when we spoke about it that I would take you of the plan at the end of the month.' "Suggested" sounds vague - like there was room for misunderstanding. Was there?
I would not have cut off the phone without an e-mail. You have to cover yourself with her so you can't be made to look bad.
mvgfwd, Painter,
Thank you for the advice. Here is what I am replying with later this morning when I get to work.
Between work and getting 5 boys ready for Halloween we had a full day. I realize that you miss them and will have them contact you tomorrow. I'm sorry it took you by surprise, I thought I was clear when we spoke about it that I would take you of the plan at the end of the month when we spoke on October 17th.
I agree with Painter about the previous attempt to validate her feelings. When you are sending typed messages, the tone could be negatively received. I believe you mean well, but at times, it comes across as though you are mocking her. So, yes, better that you took that sentence out.
The only other suggestion might be to change "getting 5 boys ready" to just "getting the boys ready". She knows how many kids you have, and previously, she had the full time job of getting them ready for activities. From what I remember about your early threads, you left those type of thing to her, and you brought home the paycheck.
I agree that you should have taken her off your phone plan.
You are doing a wonderful job with your housefull of little men.
Thank you Sandi
I will change that part also.
You're doing great, brother, continue to preserver.
So here is how I responded.
Between work and getting the boys ready for Halloween we had a full day. I realize that you miss them. I will have them contact you tonight. I'm sorry it took you by surprise, I thought I was clear when we spoke on October 17th that I would take you of the plan at the end of the month.
I call xW's parent's house line last night. Gave the phone to S8. No answer. xW calls back 5 minutes later and speaks with boys. S4 does not want to talk, I ask him to at least say hi, in the meantime xW is talking away, he says hi mom and gives me the phone back, I tell xW S4 is done talking and that I have to go, she says oh with a very bad tone as soon as she heard me and I hung up.
Today I feel ill, reviewed the judgment of dissolution and made comments back to L. Getting into specifics of drop off and pick up times. I also ask to put in a statement that no boyfriends are allowed to take kids to activities without the parent that has parenting time present or without the other parent's consent. My Ls are fighting me on this when xW was the one asking for background checks of babysitters over the summer. I am getting very frustrated with this whole situation.
Jim, you can ask for 'right of first refusal'. It means that if she can't be with the kids, you would get the option to take them. This is standard.
Hope everyone is doing well.
It has been a rough week. Have not been sleeping well. Still having a hard time not thinking about xW.
xW sent me a text with her new cell phone number and asked if I could download an app for texting since she does not have international calling and text.
Last night she send a text asking if boys were up. I kindly replied that they were sleeping. Then she asks if I can have them call her before they go to bed tonight. I replied with please text at 730 pm. Then she thanked me for using the free texting app. I just replied no problem.
About an hour later she sends the following text:
Not to harp on this but what is going on with your transfer? Are you moving here or not? If you really are I think you should consider sending S4 so that he can go to Kindergarten. He has already missed 2 months...any longer and he won't be able to catch up and he'll be behind a year.
I did not respond.
Today she send the following:
xW: Not sure why you can't just talk to me instead of getting your lawyer involved
xW: Your dime I suppose.
xW: I'm taking a look at the division of property tonight. I'll send it back by Sat. So we have to move the items out by the end of this month? We'll have to coordinate a day when we can both be there so I can have access to have the movers collect my things.
xW: You have to file the paperwork to have the subsidy moved over to your account. I'm sure you don't want to have to provide me with all that sensitive banking info. If you fill it out and bring it with you on the 11th when we exchange the kids I'll be more than happy to sign it.
xW: As for my half of the storage rental for this month and S6's subsidy for the month of October (and probably November) we can deduct it from what you owe me from the sale of the bedroom furniture. I'll propose that to the lawyers...seems to make the most sense...
Me: What bedroom furniture? That furniture was mine pre marriage.
Me: It seems that there are still many issues that have to do with money.
Me: xW I cannot file the paperwork for S6's subsidy. I do not have your account and am not authorized to use it. This is not my responsibility to transfer.
xW: No there aren't any issues... it's ok if you don't understand what I'm talking about...your L can explain it to you..
xW: As for the subsidy, you have to put in YOUR account info so that they know where to send the money. Fill it out and I'll sign. I can send you the TD account number but I'm pretty sure you don't need it. I will be closing that account at the end of the year anyway.
This woman does not want to do any work. Her texting app has pictures of her all done up posing. She is the most narcissistic person I have seen. The selfishness just continues, not the woman I married and she is not the woman I would want to be with right now.
I guess I need to continue to set a boundary with her.
She has ignored my request to set a schedule to speak with the boys and just calls when she wants. I am I asking too much for her to agree to a schedule? I sent her an email before about not calling my work phone and she has ignored it.
Anyway enough rant and raving. I hope everyone has a fun weekend.
Continue to put your boundaries in place, show her you have dignity and strength. The smallest but most consistent changes are noticed. Keep all the monetary issues on paper. There is an online (free) communication tool called TalkingParent. It's a good way to document all interactions between spouses during divorce and can be utilized by the lawyers. It is very helpful when documenting who is acting in the best interest of the children.
So Friday night I took about 1000 steps backwards. XW and I were texting back and forth for 2 hours. I broke every DB principle.
XW: Hi maybe you misunderstood
I was talking about meeting halfway tomorrow or Sunday
Let me know what day works
Me: Neither, I am busy.
XW: Ok well I guess we'll be charged until you're free
Look if it's not this weekend then we're looking at a mid way exchange on either the 19/20th. Your call. I don't have anyone available to drive me back from London if it's not other of these weekends. You're more than welcome to come and pick it up from here if there's a more convenient date and time. Just let me know so I can coordinate. Thanks. And please have the boys call me.
Me: XW, I understand that you must be very busy with an active social life. Glad to hear that. Guess we will have to continue to resolve things thru lawyers.
Me: The boys are home if you would like to call.
XW: If in all I incur long distance charges
When you ask me to call you I do
Show me the same courtesy
As for the car return it has nothing to do with my active social life
I have to coordinate a ride home
Me: Then return it as the dealer requested.
XW: I am trying to do that
You're being uncooperative
We can send this to the lawyers to work out if you wish
Me: I have a full plate. I am sorry you feel I am being uncooperative
XW: I'm sure you do. Like you wanted
Me: Absolutely
Am i calling your cell for the boys to talk to you?
XW: Please and thank you
Me: For the record this is not what I wanted.
XW: Ok Jim it's been noted
You can seem to grasp that this is happening whether you want it to or not
If you want to continue to make this impossible that's fine
You're the one that filed in the first place. You're the one that kept the kids from me. I told you I would never forgive you for doing that but you didn't seem to comprehend the results of your actions
I can't fix what you broke
I want to get you the car back
I literally have no way home
So work with me
Or we can go through lawyers and judges again
You cut my phone off
You don't respond to my texts or emails
You don't want it like this
But you are making it like this
Me: Really, let it go XW. The past can't be fixed.
You are smart enough to know the impact of your actions also.
I had a purpose for working so many hours. I feel my perspective was never understood.
XW: I know Jim. All you want to do is going around crying to everyone validating your side of the story
Don't really care anymore
Me: We are both to blame. The fact that we did this to the boys makes me sick. It is not about me. It is about doing the work that os required to be in a marriage.
XW: The marriage is over. Now this is about doing the work that is required of us as parents
Me: I am. What are you doing?
Nothing.
No job, just took money.
XW: You've all but cut me out.
Not much I can do
Me: You chose that when you filed.
XW: I chose not to be married to you anymore
That didn't mean I chose not to be their mother
In your sick mind it's all or nothing
Me: You chose to break up a family. Read up on it. You are the psych major. You should know the impact this has on them
I didn't run away.
XW: I left you because you're a drunk and a verbal abuser
A narcissist that can only see how things affect him
Me: Ok yes I am a drunk and a verbal abuser. You are a narcissistic manipulator
XW: Uh huh
Whatever you want to tell yourself
Me: You don't care what divorce does to a man. Years off my life which the boys lose out on also.
XW: All you want to do is rehash the past
Place blame
Deal with reality
Me: Not rehashing the past.
XW: Make it better for the kids
Focus on that
Me: You need to deal with reality also.
Parallel parenting XW.
That is all.
XW: Yes that is all
I have no desire to try and do
Co parent
Me: When you grow up and stop running to your mommy and daddy then maybe we can talk
XW: Says the man who's father bails him out constantly
Me: Take responsibility for your actions.
Whatever
XW: My parents are supportive
Me: So are mine.
XW: I am
Ok
In less than a week this is officially over
Whether you sign or not, whether you like it or not
We were discussing how to exchange the rental
Stay on point
Me: I am happy that I will never have to fund your bad behavior
XW: I'm happy too
Look if you want to exchange this weekend you really have to let me know now
I have to coordinate my ride
Me: Do some work and take responsibility pick up the car, drive the hyundai back to toronto until you buy your own
XW: No we can exchange the vehicle
Me: Sorry busy
XW: Ok then
Onus is on you
Me: Lawyers it is
XW: I already spoke to my L
Me: Likewise
Boss whoever you want around. It wont be me anymore.
XW: I'm not trying to boss you around
I don't have a ride home
Me: Figure it out your dad doesn't work
XW: What do you want me to do? Hitchhike back to TO?
My dad is ill
That's like me saying have your mom pick it up
You have a mother that is supportive and a sister and brother in law and boyfriend and friends.
XW: Don't be an a$$
Yes I do
And they all work and have lives
You have family too
Me: I am not. You are the social butterfly that needs adult time
XW: My mom is willing to drive to London
Me: Yes they are all raising their families
Cant help you.
Sorry
XW: Ok
Then you can come pick it up from Toronto
Me: And you will get the bill.
XW: Whatever you think Jim
I tried to work with you here
You're being unreasonable
Me: There is no working with you, you don't respect me.
I do not need to work with anyone that doesn't respect ne.
I am doing the work
XW: I do respect you
Me: What have you done
Really
XW: Apparently nothing in your mind
Me: That is why you went online dating and left our 2 year old
XW: Yes Jim you've done all the work
Me: For your needs
XW: No Jim you kept him
XW: We were in divorce proceedings
I moved on with my life
Me: No need for me to move to toronto then
XW: You thought you'd take the kids hostage and somehow make me come back to you that way
That's your decision
I never believed you would anyway
Me: XW, we will never agree on anything anymore.
XW: Just another manipulation
No we won't
Me: I am doing the work that you asked.
Lets see if you will do the same.
XW: Jim our marriage is over
Me: You wanted me to have the hard conversations well here we are
XW: It doesn't matter anymore
Me: Love is a choice XW
XW: No it's really not Jim
I don't love you anymore
Me: Ok princess go fall in love again and again
I am done wasting my time with you
I deserve someone who will accept me for who I am. I was willing to do that to save the marriage even with all the actions you took
You had this planned for at least a year and a half and I was the nice guy that gave you everything, never said no.
Goodnight.
XW: What dealership is the rental from?
Me: Enterprise in x city. The paperwork is in the car with their address and phone number
XW: Ok maybe I can return the car to an enterprise here
Or in Buffalo
I'll call and find out tomorrow
Keep you posted
It would've been nice if you had enough sense to ask ahead of time
Instead of wasting all this time and energy
Me: Ask what ahead of time
The rental? I just found out today. They called and I went to get the estimate. It is not like I was slacking off.
XW: It's ok
One question. Can i return the rental anywhere?
Toronto?
Me: Why are you asking me
XW: That's all you had to ask
Instead this turned into a bigger deal than it needed to be
Me: Well I had other issues to deal with. How about you do something for a change. Stop telling me what I could have done.
YOU do something
XW: Ok Jim
Me: I am pulling more than my fair share.
XW: Uh huh
Me: Narcissist
XW: You fought for this
Now deal with it
You left me for a year
You've had what? 2 months
Me: Absolutely I am. Keep projecting XW I don't care anymore
XW: I have no idea what you're talking about but fine
Me: You never have
XW: I don't want to hear how much work it is
Or how busy you are
Guess what
I know how hard it is and how much work it takes
Me: Do you
XW: I do
Me: Not while carrying a full time job. What are you going to contribute to the boys over the next 15 years? Nothing financially.
XW: I know when I needed your support you told me to "shut the f up" all the time
Me: Nothing I did was appreciated. I was working my a$$ off to out a down payment on an 850K house
XW: Again, I had a sound financial plan
You chose to fight against me having them
Against investing their money
That's on you
Me: Their money will be invested
XW: Well who cares now anyway
Me: You dont
I care
XW: All that money I worked so hard at saving, you worked so hard at making
You just gave it to lawyers
Even now
Me: You filed XW. Enough with the i filed first.
XW: Deal wit it Jim
Me: You gave 70K to lawyers and you could have had a diamond ring but u did not want to talk u ran away
XW: I don't love you. I don't want to be married to you. I don't want to be financially tied to you.
Me: Likewise
XW: Talk about what?
Are you insane?
Me: No u are
XW: You filed for divorce and took the kids from me
Me: A mother would never leave her children
XW: There's no forgiving that
Me: These boys came from a broken home and now they are back in a broken home
XW: That's what you believe so you took them hostage to keep me a prisoner
Me: Ur free
Do what u want i dont care
XW: Well you're doing your best at making it awful for us all
The kids are unhappy
Me: Yes I am. Always the bad guy. U do no wrong
XW: They told you they wanted to live with me
Me: No they are not. They are happy and with a stable parent
XW: Ha
Me: Do u work
Do u contribute to them financially
XW: Is that what you want
Money from me
XW: Sad
Me: No. I don't want anything from you
XW: Good then stop
Me: I should have stayed with the divorce the first time
XW: Sign the "censored" papers already
Yeah I guess you should've
Me: Its not agreed on times and everything
XW: Saved us time
Me: 60 overnight a year mom
XW: Ah well
Me: U burned that money
XW: What?
Me: Their money
XW: You burned It
Me: Ok xW whatever
XW: I wanted to write this out
Without lawyers
You're an a$$ and everyone told you
Me: Then u should have written it. I wasn't going to do it for you
XW: Not to go through lawyers
I did
You never responded
Me: You stole my money you and your mother
XW: You're insane
No one stole anything from you
Me: I will never forgive you or ur family for what they did.
XW: All my family ever did was help you
You feel better getting this off your chest?
Me: I don't want to know you anymore. Really? They helped us not me. And you and them just took it monetarily.
XW: You're family was awful, truly awful to me
Me: 100K. 50% interest ha!
You never listened to your father and let a few things slide.
XW: I'm not discussing this anymore
Me: There is always an excuse with u
Goodnight
XW: As for the furniture
I'll get back to you
What about the agreement do you want to change?
The drop off times?
Like you want it to be 8pm and not 5 pm
This is so ludicrous
Jim we're divorced
I don't know why you can't deal with that reality
But for the kids I would recommend you put your big boy pants on and be civil and courteous and make it the best possible situation for THEM
Me: I am XW. This is what you want.
I am civil.
XW: Ok
Me: I am looking out for me and the boys.
XW: No you're looking out for you
Me: Goodnight
XW: I don't think you care about them at all
Yes what fits my schedule
Me: Goodnight. Not talking about this anymore.
We can just email if you continue and I will uninstall this app.
XW: We have to work so that it fits in both our schedules
Me: That is why the schedule needs to be set in stone. I will follow it precisely.
XW: I know you will
Completely inflexible
Sad
It is set Jim
You agreed to it in mediation
Anyway, no trying to reason or be logical with you
Me: There is no reasoning with you
XW: I am reasonable
And flexible
Me: My world no longer revolves around you
XW: It never did Jim
Me: Ok XW
XW: It should revolve around the boys
Me: I get it so it is what it is
XW: And what's best for them
Me: It does and it will be fixed.
That will be the schedule and that is what we will stick to until each child is 18
Me: You wanted this
XW: I wanted it to be amicable
Me: So deal with it.
XW: But your incapable of that
Me: It is amicable.
XW: I am
No it's contentious
XW: And awful
For the boys
Me: No you want what you want with no consideration of my input and feelings
XW: No I know your feelings
And your input
Your way or the highway
It's fine
Me: Stop putting the boys in the middle and using them. If you cared about the boys you would understand that they want a mom and a dad living under the same roof
XW: No that's what you want
Me: Yep now it is my way or the highway
XW: And that will never happen
Not with us
Me: Ok
XW: Not ever again
Me: Good because I deserve so much more
XW: They wanted to live with me
But you didn't care
It was never about them
It was always about you
Me: They can but not for the price you want. I am not a fool
XW: Ok well that's that
Me: Glad u have a home for them
XW: You'll pay double that in child care
And waste all their money
Me: No I wont
XW: No I don't
Can't afford the house
Me: I ran the numbers. I don't have to fund your nails or hair or clothes and shoes and I will save thousands
XW: Ok great
So I guess it works out then
Me: That's too bad. U said your parents were going to gift it.
What happened to your support
Nice huh
XW: Makes no sense for me to keep a house that big if it's going to sit empty
Me: Agree
So sell it after a year and go move in with ur boyfriend. Guns and motorcycle two things u never want the boys to touch
You were opposed to those things and now you are dating a guy that has both.
XW: He's a cop
Me: Nice example to set.
So what
XW: It's not like he's an outlaw
Me: Have fun with the cop. Hunters are not bad people either
XW: He doesn't kill helpless animals
Me: Hunters are not bad people either but to you they are
XW: And he's certainly not going to have a gun at the house
Or have the kids shoot it
Me: Ok
Right
Figure that out when u move in with him
That was unacceptable in my book that the boys had to meet someone so soon.
Great example you set.
XW: I'm in a serious relationship
Me: Don't text me anymore am tired of you XW and want to move on. You have no idea the damage that you caused.
Great enjoy
I don't want to know about it. I am uninstalling this app
XW: Ok fine whatever then since i won't be able to freely communicate with you
I'll just ask that the boys call me every night before bed
Me: I want nothing to do with you. Your behavior disgusts me.
Buy them a phone then
XW: They're too young for a phone
Me: I am not funding you. Let ur serious relationship fund it
XW: So just have them call me
Me: No. They are kids. If they ask me yes I will. Otherwise you call
XW: No that's not how it works
I do call and you don't answer
Me: And I am going to make it clear one last time. Never call my work phone or email my work unless it is an emergency with the boys.
Yes XW that is how it works
XW: Well when you don't respond to me it is an emergency
Me: What two nights that we were busy
Whatever
XW: Technically that's not a justification
Me: Go find someone else to jump thru hoops for you I am done
Yes it is
Entitled princess
XW: I'm entitled access to my children
That doesn't make me a princess
Me: Agree
So you can call
XW: Jim when I call you complain they're eating or shower in
You know when they're free to chat so you can call
Me: No I do not.
Goodnight.
XW: Why do you text me and make me call you when I have them?!?!
Okey dokey goodnight
Me: Then lets set times. That will be the only way this will work
XW: Yes
XW: Simple
Have them call me every night
What time works?
7:30?
Me: No u call o am not calling u
XW: Great look forward to it
Ok fine I will call
Me: Lets put it in the JOD
XW: FaceTime
I don't have long distance
You do though
Me: Not my problem
XW: That's ok
Me: Ur problem
XW: JOD is set
Me: Nope
Not signed
XW: Can't change it
The judge will sign it for you
Nov 11
Me: Yes i know
XW: Whatever
XW: You say this is amicable
You're being so childish
It's pathetic
Me: No i never did
U are the child that ran away
XW: You just did
Ok and here we go round and round
Me: No you want this to be amicable your way
XW: Get over the fact that it's over
Me: You hurt me and the boys
XW: No you hurt the boys
Me: Good riddens
Whatever
XW: You're still hurting them
Me: Whatever
XW: You'll never stop
Me: I never tell them anything negative about you. I also dont play the victim
XW: Ok
Me: That is what u do
XW: Ok
Me: Get a job and start contributing to their future
XW: Goodbye
Me: Finally. Afraid to work
Me: What comes around goes around XW
Honestly I think I would have lost my $hit as well. She has re-written history without any accountability.
However.
You totally gave her control by rising to her bait. You pursued her during the convo and she ran, ran, ran. The problem with telling a WAS/WS your feelings while they're in the fog is they will simply mentally manipulate your words to re-inforce their false beliefs about you. I did this so many times and it resulted in extreme pain for me. WH would tell me how I was responsible for his going outside our marriage, this is utterly untrue but my emotional spewing just made him double down in his fog.
So Jim, no more talks about M, about R, about anything but the kids. Down load the Talking parents software, it's free and keeps everything on a record. If you X has internet access then she can use this. So we know what doesn't work, huh? Let's keep looking for what works, for now it has to be parallel parenting.
Sandi
Yes I feel better now.
Sara
I quickly reviewed the site this morning. I agree, best to continue parrallel parenting. I have just had enough of XW and needed to let that out. As time goes by am realizing I will never figure out her circus and that it will not get any better than this between her and I.
On a more positive note, spent most of Saturday at home and enjoyed the weather outside. Went to church this morning with the boys. Going to take them to a playground later and visit my parents or sister on such a beautiful November day.
JK:
That was very brave of you to share your entire convo and all of your slips. We know you will just dust yourself off and keep moving forward.
Sandi2 or others - Many of us have heard from our W's what JimKao shared with us - "I can't fix what you broke" or My W says that our R is unrepairable.
What is the best answer? Last time I heard that I just stayed quiet. Should I have said something like - You must be in an awful place if you feel that any situation is unrepairable?
I certainly know calling her a "quitter" or telling her "I'd do anything" etc, etc would be the wrong move.
I'd love to hear the "right" response.