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Posted By: lt0402 A WW? (5) - 09/26/16 11:53 AM
Previous thread:

A WW? (4)

Quick rundown of my situation:
- M11, T13 w/ a D9
- BD on 5/31/16
- Find out about EA with OM on 6/22/16. Had been ongoing since 5/13/16
- Confront W on 6/30/16 about her plans to visit OM over 4th of July weekend
- W goes anyway on 7/3/16 for PA and I leave MBR that night
- W comes back and we have talk on 7/7 about Ls
- W retains L early August
- I have met with 2 Ls so far and another in 2 days
- "Family" beach trip for a week Aug 6, multiple MR talks
- W leaves for an anniversary party for friends. Turns out it's for another PA with OM at the same lake
- confront W on it and she lies, lies, lies. I move back into Mbr
- W begins doing and saying odd things after blowup. Mentions possibility of cancer and writes a long letter blaming me for all our issues
- W and I sit down and chat custody of D. A lot of spew and W wants to push ahead with Ls
- 2 days later W offers to go to see MC, retracts offer, then re-offers. At the same time, W begins a campaign to get me to leave the house, leveraging my R w/ my D to drive it
- I've retained an L and am willing to do MC with W, but am not expecting much to come from it

I'm progressively moving away from allowing W to control my emotions and actions. I don't feel the same way for my W that I used to. Still working on controlling my reactions to her "outbursts" and controlling mentality. Feel like I'm in a strange lull in all of this and I feel a combination of frustration and tiredness. It's a strange place to be.

For me though, with the help of a multitude of folks on here, I'm working through building my relationship with D9 to be stronger. I'm also re-tooling myself to be more like the man I was pre M. Standing up for myself and D in the face of some controlling behavior from W and refusing to be a doormat. Working on GAL and some 180s but all for the sake of D and me. W can hop off her crazy train and join us, but it's getting harder and harder for her to come back at this point.
Posted By: lt0402 Re: A WW? (5) - 09/26/16 01:01 PM
Ok, so did the MC thing today. I got there 20 mins early and did the paperwork. W showed up 5 minutes early, grumpily asked if I checked in, and then sat in a chair on her phone.

Went in to see the MC and she seemed nice enough. However, I felt somewhat teamed up on in there. MC seemed to side w/ W, but maybe it's me being biased. MC wants us to work towards a S agreement and physically S, which lines up w/ Ws desires.

MC also seemed to validate Ws decisions. MC seemed to brush off the OM situation. W relayed to MC that she had zero desire to work on our MR. I was caught off balance bc that's not what she'd told me in the past few weeks. Guess I should not be surprised.

MC did ask that we work hard to keep D from being wedged in the middle of this. W said she absolutely was not doing that. MC told W she had anger issues and needed to see an IC to work through them.

So, apparently my W has no intention of doing anything to work on this MR. Not surprised really, but I have no clue why she'd ask to go to MC if that's how she feels. Maybe she was hoping for what she got today and that it'd loosen up my stance on leaving the home and my D.

MC wants us to talk tonight and discuss if we'd like to continue w/ the MC, but move down the path of counseling for S and co-parenting. MC wanted to me to acknowledge that my W was saying we are "done". If we don't choose to do MC then she asked if my W would like to utilize the MC as an IC.

Left there somewhat dumbfounded. W walked out and did not wait for me. She went straight to car and drove off. It felt like there was a hole in my chest. I don't think the hole is from my W though. I think the hole is more from knowing that there's really no chance my D has a stable, 2 parent household in her future.

Very surprised by the response from the MC. MC said that unless we were both willing to work on things, there's no reason to do MC to try to R. Less surprised by my W saying there is 0 chance she'd work on our MR. I guess we will have a conversation tonight around the future of the counseling. I've got my IC tomorrow so I'll be curious for his take on this.

Sorry all, wish I had better news resulting from todays MC visit. I feel like I've been sent down a cheese-less path and have been used, again, by my W. It's almost like she wants to show she is the puppet master and can pull my strings.

Guess we work towards a S agreement. Regardless, I keep my focus on myself and D. W can play her games. If MC can help us fix our communication to actually be co-parents then maybe I'll consider. I told both MC and W that I had no trust in W after what she's been telling me the past 4 months. That part is 100% true and I'm unsure how I ever rebuild that trust at this point. Unsure I want to, besides for the sake of my D.

Sad place to be in...

Originally Posted By: rich4j
LT
Was just recatching up on you sitch lately and its turning into something eerily similar to mine

It is impossible to be in the same house and I think make any progress whether its on the MC front or pulling away to move towards true separation. And agree she won't see how much you do and respect you more until she/you are not in the same house.

My STBX in MC early on when this started just used it as a way to bang on my head and reconfirm her decision. The worlds issues were all my fault and she had nothing to do with our marriage problems. You may see the same behavior if you go down that path.

For all that is going on ($$ being transferred,living togther, etc...) I can only give you some advice that I followed being in a super similar situation:

-always keep your cool in front of the D. I had a few situations that I did not and it was bad. The kids are smart than we think as my daughter ended up saying "I am glad you won't fight anymore" when we said we were moving on. She actaully has said since I moved out that she is glad mommy isn't here to yell at me anymore :-)

-You have lawyered up which is good. I don't recall the housing situation of moving out etc...but did recommend before don't move until you have anything/everything in writing with custody/separation.

-Do move or she should move. Space is good. I don't know if my STBX respects things a bit more of what I represented in the relationship but I sense she is starting to see all that i did. Yours may do the same once you are not sharing the house together. It is so hard living in that stressful situation and I wish you the best with that....

-Best thing to do which I see you are is when you aren't working on you, your job is to spend as much time (and documnet) with your D. It is the most important thing possible. My D and I are closer than ever right now which was my biggest fear. She doesn't want to leave my house and whether its her just saying it or not, we spend quality time together. While my STBX is getting babysitters etc....to do her own thing. Own the time with your D and plan plan plan.



Rich4j, as you can tell from the above, it sounds like my situation in MC was similar to yours. Extremely frustrating to have a 3rd party in there that validated the Ws behavior.

Appreciate your advice too. I've done a good job of keeping my cool in front of my D as of late. W has done a horrible job of keeping her cool and I find myself trying to compensate for it. To see my D come over and try to console my W when she gets angry over something stupid is heartbreaking.

I won't do anything w/ regards to moving her or I until we have a custody/Separation agreement in place. L has been on the backburner, but it sounds like I need to get that going based on today's MC visit.

I find myself hesitant to move. It kills me to know that my time w/ my D will be, at best, cut in half. It does suck living in this stressful situation, but I can justify it bc I have unfettered access to my D. At this point I've given up almost all thought that W and I can reconcile. She seems too far gone. It all comes down to my time w/ my D.

Thank you Rich! I'm going to think about all of these over the next couple days. Need my head a bit clearer than it is right now.

JR, yes, I see the contradiction b/t those two things. This is the thing that pisses me off the most right now. Unsure how a kid can want to be around and do things with me when she doesn't "trust me as a parent", per my W. Bleh.

Hawk, she actually showed up. I'd of given it a 50/50 chance. But it does appear she had ulterior motives. Bleh.

I need some time to think through all of this today. W says she can't talk to me today bc she's too angry to talk. Regardless, I need some feedback from her. At this point it's almost like I just want to be done with all of this. Is there anything wrong w/ just moving on with my life, knowing that I've done everything I could to fight for my family and my MR? Unsure I'm there yet, but damn this fight seems so impossible...

If she wants to be without me, then have at it. I don't need her stress. I don't need her crazy train. I don't need her.
I only need to keep bettering myself and working to protect my D and build our bond to be stronger. I'm a stronger person than my W and I know that now.
Posted By: JRuss Re: A WW? (5) - 09/26/16 02:55 PM
Your D wouldn't want to be around you at all if she had any of the feelings for you your W says she does. Believe that, because it is true. She wants to be around you because she loves you and because you're a good father.

That a trained therapist, meeting your W for the first time, is able to conclude she has anger issues, is telling.
Posted By: mvgfwd2 Re: A WW? (5) - 09/26/16 03:09 PM
It was said a few weeks ago that MC would be a waste of time if she wasn't interested in R. I could have also been the wrong MC. They vary on what they advise. I would still be very cautious about moving out. Ask her to move out or at least have her leave the MBR since she is the one who had the A and wants out. When you discuss the MC tonight when the subject of who moves out comes up my answer would be, "You're the one who wants out, nobody is keeping you here, there's the door". Or, "this bedroom is for people who want to be faithful and married, you don't so I think you need to move to another room." Don't be pushed around. Remember, you are not driving this crazy train so there is no need for you to help it along.
Posted By: cheesyt Re: A WW? (5) - 09/26/16 03:09 PM
Originally Posted By: lt0402

Is there anything wrong w/ just moving on with my life, knowing that I've done everything I could to fight for my family and my MR? Unsure I'm there yet, but damn this fight seems so impossible...

If she wants to be without me, then have at it. I don't need her stress. I don't need her crazy train. I don't need her.


LT, sorry to hear MC did not go in a more positive direction.
I don't think there's anything wrong with just moving on with your life. You'll know when it's your time. Don't rush into decisions. I don't have much advice other than make sure this S agreement benefits you. As I'm sure you will. hang in there!
Posted By: DonH Re: A WW? (5) - 09/26/16 04:43 PM
Lt, I'm very sorry to hear what happened, I really am. I know what it's like to go through what you just did. So I get it and don't want to heep more on you here. At the same time I'm really afraid if you don't take charge here your W is going to walk all over you on this.

First of all, did you set up this councilor or did W? I thought it was you but sounds like it could Have been her? Did you check out this MC at all? If not, why the hell not? You just rolled the dice on it being the right fit? MWD talks about this in her books. You have to get a pro M MC or you now see what can happens! I feel so bad for you but at the same time want to shake you and wake you up here. Don't let W decide YOUR future. For one, DO NOT MOVE OUT. Do you hear me? If W wants to S let her go. Stop doing ANYTHING for her. It's now your life and she doesn't matter anymore than a stranger walking the street. You must co parent for D but that's it. The rest is your life. I almost think that years from now you'll see. How lucky you are to be free if her crazy. But until then you must protect yourself and D. Odd enough standing up for yourself may be what turns this around should you still want that. You have to be in the driver seat. W has to get out. Make her run her life. Make her pay her way. Make her find a place too live. Call your L right away or W will orchestrate how this goes and not you

Again, I feel for you. I really do but it's now time to man up, GaL and show your W what life on her own is like.
Posted By: lt0402 Re: A WW? (5) - 09/26/16 06:45 PM
W in a noticeably good mood tonight when I got home and when we put D to bed. Didn't talk to me, but we both joked with D. Just put D down and I went downstairs to discuss with her what then MC asked us to think about today. W said she didn't want to talk about it tonight. Then she said if I want to go back then make another appt. then she said she did not intend for it to go how it did today. Then she said, but what she said today is consistent with what she's been saying all along.

Unsure what to make of her going in 5 different directions there or what she means by "I did not intend for it to go the way it did today". To be honest, I feel like I'm being toyed with so I'm not even going to try to read into it. I'm not even sure what I want with her at this point. Again, a strange spot to be in.

I finished up the conversation by telling her I needed a day to think about if I wanted to do it and I would talk to her on Wednesday about it (GAL tomorrow evening). I'm really not sure if I want to go back into that fray with her. I'll discuss with the IC tomorrow.

Don, I did actively seek out a recommendation for the MC. She was highly recommended by my IC and works in the same practice. My IC recommended her bc she is pro M and she, as he put it, can see through people's BS. Needless to say I was surprised by the way the conversation went today. My IC has sent a bunch of people to her and she's had good luck helping them through their issues. Interested to get his thoughts tomorrow.

You are right about taking charge. I let her suck a couple good weeks from me with the thought of the MC and now I feel behind the 8-ball bc I haven't been as aggressive in righting the ship with regards to stuff with D and the house here. I've also let my GAL slack as I've let down my guard with my W. I will not get those two weeks back, but I can guarantee I won't let her lead me this way again. Right now I feel frustration more than anything. Not the same feelings I'd of had 1.5 months ago.

I'm not moving out. I'll consult my L tomorrow about all of this. But i definitely will not move out until AT LEAST a S and custody agreement is in place. Even at that point I'm not sure yet what we will do. Maybe we just sell the house and be done with it.

DonH, I appreciate both the shaking and sympathy from you as always. I'm becoming more hardened to this, but am still not where I need to be. Please continue the shaking as appropriate.

MV, yeah, I agree. Seemed like a long shot but it felt like one I had to at least pursue to get some clarity. Not planning on moving out. Only reason I can think of W not wanting to leave the mbr is bc its a power/ego thing for her. She wants to show she's in control. Right now the balance of control is still with her but I am going to continue to work to shift that. Thank you as always MV, wish there were a much easier way to exit this crazy train.

JR, I agree and that's one thing I know to be true. That my D loves me and wants me around. That said, I am going to be more proactive in getting myself wrapped into her school stuff as that's an area the W has controlled. I need to be fluent in how she operates there so I can help her grow. Also, I'll explore the "D doesn't trust you as a parent" thing W mentioned. May be some truth to that which I can proactively work to alleviate if there is. On the anger, yes, the MC saw that loud and clear. W got worked up in there for a few, plus W mentioned it was why she could not talk to me. W really does need IC help, regardless of what happens with us. For my Ds sake, I hope she gets it. Thank you JR, I'd still offer you explore MC with your W, even after this experience. I think you need to at least give it a try.

Cheesyt, thank you as always for your support my friend. I guess it could have gone worse and an asteroid could have crashed into the building or something! smile continuing to hang in there. I feel like moving on, but it's like something inside of me is still holding on. I can't quite put my finger on it. I can tell you that with each passing day and each glimpse of the new W, I feel further and further away from her. I'm assuming that's how detachment works, in that it's not a on/off thing but more of a sliding scale. Who knows.

So, I find myself very concerned about custody. I'm realizing that Ws view of custody (2hrs every weekday at her place + every other weekend + me getting to see her in snippets on Ws weekends) is merely a way for my W to keep control. Especially having my D at her place when I "visit" on the weekdays. Going to consult my L on how best to proceed on this. W has been asked to be head room mother for my Ds class again this year (20hrs a week of work) and W is convinced she can get a job to support herself while still getting D on the bus, as well as getting D off the bus seem to point to her being in lala land. Who knows, she's actually pretty smart and maybe she can swing it. I don't have a lot of trust in it though.

Running in the am (I am sooooo looking forward to this and need it right now) and then work and pool in the evening. Appreciate everyone's thoughts and guidance. I need to rework my goals in the next two days. Thanks again!
Posted By: Rose888 Re: A WW? (5) - 09/27/16 04:53 AM
OK, I'm going to skip over all the marriage and family stuff (because you'll get great advice there from people with more experience than I have) and go straight for the trivial detail. What kind of school requires 20 hours a week of parent volunteer time per week?

That's insane.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: A WW? (5) - 09/27/16 07:00 AM
Two words for you. Shark lawyer!
Posted By: lt0402 Re: A WW? (5) - 09/27/16 12:59 PM
Rose, W was the room mother last year and that's about the time she put into it each week. She does all sorts of stuff to help alleviate strain on the teacher + parties and other stuff. Not a requirement, but W has typically worked it like it was her job.

Sandi, I've reached out to my L to advise on how we should proceed following the MC session yesterday. I've told them my main concern at this point is the custody piece and how we get to a 50/50 split. Trying to brainstorm now on what that would look like. Open to anyone's thoughts who has been through this before.

thanks all!
Posted By: lt0402 Re: A WW? (5) - 09/28/16 09:28 AM
Nothing new to report since yesterday. Had a GAL w/ my Tuesday night pool league last night. Always have a good time w/ that group. The competition helps to get some of the aggression/focus out as well, which is nice.

Snoozed my alarm this morning, so no gym time. Regretting that now as I feel sluggish today. Talked to my L today and have an appointment to come in and see them next Tues to discuss custody options. Right now I'm looking at a couple different options that may work:

1) 1 week with Mom, 1 week with Dad. Rotate into perpetuity

2) 2-2-5: Mon/Tues with Mom, Wed/Thurs with Dad, Fri-Sun rotates every week

W's view is that I get to see D, at her house, every night b/t 6:30-8:30. Then I get D at my house every other weekend. W also "allows" me to take D to do stuff during her weekends w/ her permission (i.e. fish, etc).

I have yet to say this to W, but it appears to be a continuation of her having control over both D and I. The 2hrs every weekday at her place allows her to control the situation. It also allows her to control my dating life when I decide to move on, as I'd be a bad father for refusing to see my D at all available moments. It also gives her free babysitting so she can go to the gym or go running.

The "permission" thing is also highly controlling, for obvious reasons. The every other weekend thing allows her to control things, bc she would be the primary custody parent.

All around, that solution forces D and I to remain in Ws orbit. If we are really going to S and D then I want to find escape velocity and get out of her gravitational pull.

With that said, I'm going to push to tighten our finances now. Get rid of our premium tv channels, pare down our cell phone plans, tighten up our budget. Need to start saving our resources bc it'll get costly for both of us and we'll need the savings to make things work. W continues to spend as though we don't have all these lurking expenses on the horizon.

I'm also going to start looking into living arrangements for myself that D and I can share. At first that's probably an apartment/townhome w/ two bedrooms, but I'd really like to get back into a smaller house ASAP. I like the idea of a stable home for my D and I don't think an apartment gives her the comfort a house does. The only issue is that homes in our school zone are expensive, and I need to figure out the financial situation and live it for a bit to see if it's a fit.

Regardless, I'm tired of the Ws controlling behavior at this point. I'll still pick my battles, but I'm unwilling to let both my Ds and my future be controlled to the T by her. We'll see what comes of it.
Posted By: rich4j Re: A WW? (5) - 09/29/16 06:03 AM
LT-

Advice on the custody where you wife controls seeing your daughter...NO.

Look at this as a business transaction and do what works for you not her. I got pushed a bit in my custody arrangement which is temporary which is OK for now since i travel now and then for work but going to court unknown to my STBX for now to change this up

In the living arrangements do you not see where you have 2 separate places?
Posted By: lt0402 Re: A WW? (5) - 09/29/16 06:18 AM
W just sent me a message saying:

W: "Are you making another MC appointment? I'm fine with going back, I just need to know"

sent her back:

Me: "Let's discuss tonight. To be honest, I am hesitant bc I'm not sure what the point would be. At the last visit, you told me there is 0% chance you want to work on our marriage."

I'm just tired of this. I think she's trying to use the MC to drag this thing out and maintain control.
Posted By: lt0402 Re: A WW? (5) - 09/29/16 06:47 AM
Response back from W:

W: "I have been telling you that forever. MC could still help us work on the parenting stuff. Everything MC said through the whole apt was how we need to do what's best for D which is what I've been attempting to tell you we need to do for months."

W: "I get you were expecting that meeting to go differently and I am genuinely sorry about that. It was not my intention. I never told you I wanted to work things out, however I did expect to feel differently about it that day. I cannot help that. But, this is all about D, so please think about it. Going to talk to MC about co-parenting was your idea at the start of our S. It will help D."

I really am just exhausted by this. I'm going to tell her let's figure out the S and custody stuff and then we'll contemplate co-parenting counseling.
Posted By: mvgfwd2 Re: A WW? (5) - 09/29/16 07:39 AM
I guess I'm with you about what is the point of MC if not to work on the MR. Is it really the right forum for co-parenting? Especially, without a separation agreement (with custody, financial, living arrangement, etc) worked out with L's?
Posted By: sandi2 Re: A WW? (5) - 09/29/16 09:03 AM
I think you should ask your lawyer about having a physiological evaluation done on your W. It should be one that your lawyer chooses and not your W.
Posted By: fade Re: A WW? (5) - 09/29/16 11:13 AM
No more MC. If you go there and talk about separation, that means you are talking money and custody. No offense, but I dont think you are your own best advocate at the moment, and your WW is obviously the worst! Even an impartial MC would probably start siding with her.

Move forward with the L already. Dont talk to her about divorce or custody or money. Let your L do the talking from now on. Its well past time to file and separate finance.

About custody, 2-2-3 or week to week are OK. The 2-2-3 requires a lot more hand-offs and contact, which is probably best to avoid. Week to week and you will miss your D more, but she wont be moving her whole life every 2 days. I think that is the biggest problem with the 2-day rotation, for kids at least. I would suggest going for the week to week, but that's not a hill to die on. 50-50 is. File for 50-50, week to week, and you can negotiate to a 2-2-3 if needed. You absolutely cant entertain negotiating down from 50-50. I would also suggest a couple of multi-week blocks over summer, so you can do longer vacations with or without your D, without needing your ex's approval. And, while you are at it - put in a 50-50 split on college expenses.
Posted By: lt0402 Re: A WW? (5) - 09/29/16 02:47 PM
Agree w/ all of you. Sent this to W:

Me: "If that's how we are viewing the counseling, let's get the separation and custody agreements figured out. Then let's focus on the coparenting w/ a counselor."

W also got a new phone yesterday and is pushing me to remove my phone from the joint account. Told her I'd get to it when I'm less busy.

All, at this point I'm just too tired to give a damn about this or her. She seems gone and I'm willing to let her go. For some reason the past two days have brought back thoughts of her and OM and I'm finding I don't care what she does now. Sure it hurts to think of my W being w/ someone else, but I don't want to be with her if this is who she is.

I sent a note to my L to ask if there's any disadvantage to us doing the custody/separation agreements since her Ls seem to be dragging their feet. I just want to focus on custody of my D and getting to, at worst, 50/50 joint custody. I love my job, but if that's a detriment to having 50/50 then I'll find another one that fits the schedule. I'm willing to do whatever is necessary to make that work.

It seems that certain thoughts of my W will always hurt at times. She's so far from being the person I want to be around though that I'm just done w/ her. I want off this rollercoaster. If she changes then maybe we can think about it in the future, but I don't see a path where that happens.

Rich/Sandi/MV/Fade, thank you all for your thoughts. Fade, that's extremely helpful on the custody piece. I'd been looking at similar and would love the weekly split. I want my D, but I want our time to be away from my W. That seems like it'd be a better fit.

You all are the best and I appreciate your thoughts and support!
Posted By: rich4j Re: A WW? (5) - 09/29/16 06:52 PM
LT-

The cloning continues as your WAW is the same as many of ours. Same bat time...same bat story

My STBX said the same about MC. We started to do it and all she did was use it to bash me so I stopped. Then it was for doing co parenting and turned into a bash session so I cancelled them

I agree with your approach. Take care of all the important stuff as custody is #1. Co Parenting can be done after if you feel it will really help you both and not just be a cluster.
Posted By: lt0402 Re: A WW? (5) - 09/30/16 01:02 AM
W informed me that the papers will be ready from her Ls next week. I informed my Ls and asked if we should do anything before I meet with them early next week. At this point i see no path back to how things were with W and I.

W also has upgraded her phone and wants me to take my line off the account (it's under her name). Told her I'd attempt to get to it in the next couple days. I believe she thinks I'm monitoring her, she doesn't realize that I don't care. I also wonder if she's planning on trashing that phone since it has texts, etc on it by her and OM. Need to talk to lawyers about that.

Posting this bc I woke up about 3 hrs before my alarm and can't sleep. It's not bc my mind is racing about my W. Unsure what it is. I do find myself worried immensely about my D and how custody works out. I can't imagine a world where my interactions with D are driven by my W. I'd think she couldn't possibly be that selfish, but the past 4 months show she can be that and more.
Posted By: mvgfwd2 Re: A WW? (5) - 09/30/16 06:42 AM
Brace yourself for the most ridiculous demands in her separation agreement. If you can pull off a genuine laugh I think it would be appropriate.
Posted By: MoveFrwd Re: A WW? (5) - 09/30/16 07:15 AM
Originally Posted By: fade
About custody, 2-2-3 or week to week are OK. The 2-2-3 requires a lot more hand-offs and contact, which is probably best to avoid. Week to week and you will miss your D more, but she wont be moving her whole life every 2 days. I think that is the biggest problem with the 2-day rotation, for kids at least. I would suggest going for the week to week, but that's not a hill to die on.


I have a 3-3-4-4 split with my kids. The nice thing is that the kids have a little bit longer with each parent. Also, there is only one real "handoff" per week as the other one is a drop-off/pick-up switch. The only real downside is that one parent will have the kids every Friday + Saturday night. Luckily, I dont rally mind as all of my GAL stuff is during the week anyway.

That said, a full week without the kids would be tough on a regular basis.
Posted By: lt0402 Re: A WW? (5) - 09/30/16 11:12 AM
Rich, the way my W is acting right now would completely make any attempt at co-parenting a farce. It worries me about how we'll interact when this is done, but maybe she'll cool down and be able to at least say hello when we physically S. Sorry you had to go through similar man. Living it right now, I know how painful it must have been.

MV, yeah, I'm expecting the S and Custody agreements to be a "bit askew" to say the least. I actually find myself wondering if we will need to rip them up and completely rewrite them. Guess we'll see when they come across.

darknes, having the kids for Fri and Sat night actually sounds like it'd be a lot of fun. You get the kids when they're unwound and not dealing w/ the stress of school/homework during the week. I do agree that not seeing my D for a full week would be miserable, both for my W and myself. I do worry about the upheaval of a more frequent schedule on D, but maybe a 3-3-4-4 would work for us as well.

Thank you all for your ideas and support. I'm not really sure how my W will act this weekend. I'm tempted to remind her that my stance on custody has not changed, but I don't think it'll make a difference in regards to what she'll give me next week for an agreement. I am going to be more assertive in house and stuff with the D though. Do what is right, regardless of how it makes W react. Working off that thought.
Posted By: fade Re: A WW? (5) - 09/30/16 01:26 PM
You mention you think she is getting rid of evidence on her phone.

Do you have any evidence of adultery? Anything that is court admissible, or even anything that is not?

Also, did you check with the lawyers you met about the implications of adultery on divorce in your area / with local judges. In some jurisdictions it can void spousal support, and also give you a lot of ammo to force the cheating spouse out of the house, often without the kids.

In most areas though adultery officially has no impact on divorce.

There are a few approaches you can consider.
1. See if the adultery can reduce/eliminate your support payments. Check if you are in a fault or no fault jurisdiction. Also, ask around with different lawyers and see what they think. Even in no-fault jurisdictions, you can often find judges who would beg to differ. It would be good if you find a lawyer who thinks that whatever you have or can get as evidence of the adultery would help your case with alimony or custody if this goes to trial.

2. Keep evidence as leverage. When you get her absurd papers, tell her that your lawyer wants to counter sue based on adultery grounds and make this public record. This can be strong inducement to settle in mediation. However, given how you describe her state of mind she probably cant envision herself in the wrong, or losing.



Also, you have not responded about finances. Have you separated them yet? I assume you are not paying for her new phone? What about her L? Anything she buys or commits to now is 50% your expense until you get things formally separated, depending on the definition in your area.

Also, remember that she is obviously not thinking about a future where she has to work full time given her shortsightedness. When she hits you over your work schedule on custody - well she has no idea what her work schedule will be, but she will definitely have one! It will be up to each of you to work around that yourselves.

However, if you have right of first refusal this might give your W an in to keep your D from end of school until you can wrestle her back each evening. I recommend getting RFR about 99% of the time, but you (or rather your WW) might be part of the 1% where I can see this becoming an issue.
Posted By: lt0402 Re: A WW? (5) - 09/30/16 06:50 PM
Fade, if it were me in her shoes id want that phone as far away from me as possible. Every communication she has had, I believe, has been through that phone. Those communications were at least on Facebook (not recoverable apparently) and text message (recoverable to some degree). After I confronted her in August she may have switched to some other method but it would have been on that phone.

With that said, I do live in a fault state, though it's very onerous to prove adultery. I do have evidence of at least a very explicit EA before the BD in May. W has been careful to keep marching the date of the BD backwards though. Believe she is now at December being the BD. It's insane. Other evidence I have is post BD, though L says since we are still M it's still adultery. I have yet to give all this to L, but at this point I think I have to in case custody gets nasty. I hate my W for bringing me to the point that I need to share this crap.

Finances are still intertwined. New phone was a free upgrade, per her, though I'm not sure I buy that. I watch the finances like a hawk and have a plan should I need to quickly protect that aspect of things. The only thing I need to push on W is her giving me access to this other card she has opened. Both of our Ls are coming out of our savings.

I'm lucky that I have family in town and an understanding boss for the custody stuff. I've shored up where my family can help and verified flexibility from my boss. I can manage having D for an extended period. Worse comes to worse I'll just find a more flexible job. W believes she can find a job working from 9:00 to 3:30 (Ds school schedule) that will pay her six figures. Best of everything! Not sure how she doesn't have a clue this doesn't work.

Not familiar with RFR but will read up on it. Sounds like W would bridge the gap of work and school schedule. Then I would take D for the remainder? I'll familiarize myself. Appreciate your insight as always fade!!!
Posted By: CT1118 Re: A WW? (5) - 09/30/16 10:24 PM
...It0402...I just caught up on the past two threads I had missed...I got nothing direct. I got nothing that has not already been said about you being you, or you being dad. I have been through D before, but w/o kids. I do support you though my friend. Most I can give. Looks like you are getting some serious investment from those before us. Watching, listening.
Posted By: lt0402 Re: A WW? (5) - 10/01/16 06:17 PM
CT, I have always appreciated your support brother! There are some awesome people that have been helping me in here and I can't even begin to thank all of you enough!

So, I'm pushing my W now on a few things. Told her today that I'd like to:

1) do every meal and meds for D on Sunday's
2) fully do her after school routine, homework, meals, and meds on Mondays and Wednesday's.
3) go to all doctors, dentists, and orthodontist appointments going forward
4) get recipes from W of a few of the things she makes for D so I can practice making them
5) I'm making a list of house things we need to do to sell the house
6) I'm making a list of expenses we need to cut

W responds i can't just force changes to Ds routine bc that will negatively impact D. W says we can't change Ds routine until we figure out how everything will work with S.

I tell W that while I hear her worries about disrupting Ds routine, I don't agree that we have to wait and I'd like to start moving forward with doing this stuff.

W says please stop making this harder for D. Then she leverages our counseling session for the first time and says even the counselor gets that, why don't you. Surprised it took her this long to hit me in the head with what came out of MC.

D has a friend show up and I head out to a golf tournament with friends (my GAL today). W then hits me on text.

W: we can't discuss today bc Ds friend is over. We can figure out S plans and then work on the other stuff. Sorry if you don't like that but think about D for a sec. You are doing the same thing you did over the summer and it made it worse for D and you know that. If you are not willing to see the MC and try to deal with this fairly you are going to push D farther away. How do you not get that?

I don't respond, come home from golf, say hi to W, get ignored by W, say hi to D and friend and now am sitting here. just now, W follows up with this:

W: I understand you do not agree with me but that's not the point. We need to agree together on something that is good for D. You're going to have to compromise. Disrupting her routine with no explanation is completely unfair to D. We should talk about this calmly when D goes to bed tomorrow and come up with a reasonable plan for you to start doing meals next weekend. Please do not mess with her school routine right now. D is having a good year, please don't cause her extra stress. I will help you next weekend but please don't mess up her school week yet. Not until there's a plan. You cannot say that's not a fair request. That's selfish and won't help any of us. In the meantime reconsider talking to the MC bc we are not getting anywhere without her. Way back in May you thought it was a great idea so there's no reason not to go.

So, that's been my day with her stewing on that. Had a wonderful time at the golf tournament. We won the thing and it was great to be outside with friends all day. I used to play a ton of golf before I got married but really don't anymore. Don't have the same passion for it. Trying to find something else to fill that void.

It's funny that my W doesn't realize I really don't need her help on those requests. I'm more than capable of doing those things for D now. Even the homework stuff, where W has been more active than myself, I feel I can pick up quickly and keep D succeeding. I realize now I'm more than capable of driving the stuff my W does, both for my D and for our household. It's a liberating realization.

All that said, I don't think what I'm asking upsets Ds routine. Why would D care who makes her food or does her meds? The homework stuff, maybe. But I'll offer that I sit with them for a couple weeks while they do it then I'll transition into it.

I think the larger issue is Ws fear of losing control. She continues to leverage D as the reason I should allow her to retain control. This is such a huge issue that I'm not sure how it resolves itself. W seems to want to get me back in front of MC so she can push her agenda as well as her and MC aligned very well last time.

We will see. All I know is that D and I are going to an island park downtown tomorrow morning to hunt Pokemon (supposed to be the best spot in our city). We've been looking forward to this for awhile. All D wants to chat about recently is Pokemon and we've bonded a bunch around it. Pretty interesting to see where their passions lie!

In a good spot right now. W isn't weighing on me as much as she has in the past. My focus is on my D and the custody piece of this. Meet with the L on Tuesday to see how best to proceed. Thanks all for the thoughts and support!
Posted By: CT1118 Re: A WW? (5) - 10/01/16 09:04 PM
Originally Posted By: lt0402

W says please stop making this harder for D. Then she leverages our counseling session for the first time and says even the counselor gets that, why don't you. Surprised it took her this long to hit me in the head with what came out of MC.

W: we can't discuss today bc Ds friend is over. We can figure out S plans and then work on the other stuff. Sorry if you don't like that but think about D for a sec. You are doing the same thing you did over the summer and it made it worse for D and you know that. If you are not willing to see the MC and try to deal with this fairly you are going to push D farther away. How do you not get that?


Your W is weak. The above quotes are weak It0402. Dissoi logioi is a form of rhetorical argument - meaning one side of an argument defines the terms of the other side - look it up, let me know what you think. Not sure if your W has been through a liberal arts formal education, but as I read your $hit, the above is what she is doing. Read about it, decide if you agree, if you do, form a defense. Otherwise, but a good shovel and a yard bag, b/c she is leaving some $hit to pick up.

On a more personal note...
Originally Posted By: lt0402

All I know is that D and I are going to an island park downtown tomorrow morning to hunt Pokemon (supposed to be the best spot in our city). We've been looking forward to this for awhile. All D wants to chat about recently is Pokemon and we've bonded a bunch around it. Pretty interesting to see where their passions lie!

In a good spot right now. W isn't weighing on me as much as she has in the past. My focus is on my D and the custody piece of this. Meet with the L on Tuesday to see how best to proceed. Thanks all for the thoughts and support!


...you wrote my personal note to you. This is it. You're a great dad, you're a great you. Man, you love your daughter, I feel that through how I love my son. Insanity and instability met with sanity and ability - D9 is one fortunate girl to have you. The ship is tight sir.
Posted By: ForGump Re: A WW? (5) - 10/01/16 09:20 PM
Originally Posted By: sandi2
I think you should ask your lawyer about having a physiological evaluation done on your W.


Can someone explain this to me? What would the evaluation be for, exactly?To determine what?

Very curious. Thanks.

(LT-- I've not stayed abreast of your situation, and just popped in and see things are rough right now. Sorry to hear it. What can I say. Hang in there.)
Posted By: lt0402 Re: A WW? (5) - 10/02/16 04:41 PM
Journaling. CT and FG appreciate your thoughts and will respond a little later if that's ok.

Woke up this am, went out to grab a cup of coffee and then came home and did the weeds in the front yard. I'd been not doing this the past two weeks as I was trying to let Ws anxiety level drop. she said she would handle but has not. i hammer it out, get down the Halloween decorations, and clean the garage before Ds friend leaves and we head to the park downtown.

3 awesome hours with D this morning hunting Pokemon. Overcast day, not too hot, not too cold. Pretty much perfect. D and I had a blast running back and for on this island. Found a bunch of new Pokemon and D figured out some stuff we hadn't known how to do before. Amazing to see how sharp she is and I can see her confidence building daily. Awesome to watch her changing into a strong, confident girl!

Came home for lunch and D finished a school project afterwards. I hit the grocery store bc I didn't go last week and was running low. W told me on Saturday that I needed to stop eating Ds and her strawberries as they were running out. So petty, but I let it slide and got my own today. I really don't know what W does during the day while I'm at work. She says she's busy but she doesn't do the yard work she berates me for doing. She doesn't clean the house as thoroughly as she used to. She takes care of nothing for me at this point. She's pretty much like a nasty roommate who refuses to pay rent. It is liberating doing everything for myself though. I am no longer reliant on her for anything. She puts D on bus and gets her off bus, but I've no doubt I can handle that in the future as well. Matter of fact, W just makes things more difficult and less streamlined around here as her moods permeate the atmosphere and weigh on D and I.

Well, D finishes her project and her and I head out to the park near our house for a couple hours before dinner. Do some Pokemon, creek bed exploring (D is loving going off the paths and exploring), tree climbing, etc and have a really good time. Great follow up to our awesome morning! D is now less scared of doing things that are outside of her comfort zone, which is what I've been working towards. She's picked up Ws over-cautious approach to things and I'm slowly walking it back. Building her confidence and understanding of certain things she's cautious about has worked wonders. Really proud of her!

W just gave D her bath. D stubbed toe and her and W snuggled for a bit. I talked to D today about starting to take showers instead of baths. I think we are overdue for moving onto showering. May not be a big deal, but I think W is holding on a bit there.

I also asked D how things were going with me. How was my listening to her...great. How was my keeping promises with her....great. What could I be doing better....only thing is listening to mommy better. D is consistent each week. I don't know how to explain to her that the reactions of W won't get better. Comes back to getting her in front of an IC.

Overall, I think my R with D is going great. I'm happy and she seems to be happy. W seems unhappy, but not my circus. I asked if she wanted coffe this am. She ignored me. I approached her and asked again, nicely, if she'd like coffe. She just looked at me and said "obviously I don't". Really doesn't bother me now. I just won't let her disrespect me by giving me no answer. I am not fearful of standing up to her.

More time with D now before bed. W wants to talk tonight about the list I gave her. I'll compromise but I will not fold to her demands. What I want is what's right. I'll always stand for what is right. That's one of the more important things I've learned through all of this. True to myself and my D.
Posted By: lt0402 Re: A WW? (5) - 10/02/16 07:27 PM
Ok, more journaling post convo with W.

W was upset that I'd want to change Ds routine. She said that we need to figure out S and custody situation before we change anything. I told her that changing who does Ds dinners and meds wouldn't matter to the routine. W was actually honest (I think) and said that it gives her a lot of anxiety to have to make that change right now to Ds routine. We agreed that I would do Ds food and meds on Sunday and start off with one night next week.

On the homework, W cried and said D is doing so awesome this year in school. I can't just come in and stress D out with changes. W says she's had massive anxiety over this bc she knows it will screw up Ds schoolwork. I told W that I have anxiety around the continuity D will need when we pull our family apart shortly. With D being split evenly between us, I would like to pull her down a similar homework path that W has to make the transition easier. I.e. I understand wholesale changes are not the best when you've just been told your parents are divorcing. W sat back and rationally thought about it and said she hadn't seen it from that viewpoint. We are going to start off with me helping on homework and dinner/meds next Monday.

W got into MC and my refusal to go back. She says we will not make any progress on fixing our issues to co-parent unless we do this. She said it was my idea to start and I'm just angry someone called me out on this being my fault. She said MC called me out for not accepting blame for this situation and I'm unwilling, as always, to accept and apologize for that blame.

I told W, and maybe this is wrong but I felt it had to be said, that I will not go back to MC bc it won't fix anything. The real issue is that W is making a choice to hold onto anger and resentment and until that's corrected we won't be able to communicate. MC with both of us won't solve that. I said that W should take MC up on her offer to be Ws IC. W brushed that off and said fine, we will just go to court and never talk to each other, etc. W said that I obviously don't care about her. My actions since April (the ever changing BD date) have shown I'm unwilling to fix myself and I have made no changes. Every change has been focused on myself and none have been focused on W and D. W said I have never accepted blame or genuinely apologized for things in the past.

W said that D this week told W that she wants us to live apart. For the first time, W said its bc D isn't happy with the fighting bt us. W said D is unhappy with the constant arguing and snapping. I told W those things only come from her side. She is making a choice to harbor that anger and resentment. She is making a choice to have confrontations. I told her that I walk away when she gets angry and combative because I will not allow her to speak to me like that and I am very cognizant it stresses D. I said I'm more than happy to talk, but I will not tolerate it.

W actually said that had I merely gone to a hotel in April for a week and given her the space she needed that we wouldn't be where we are right now. That had I done that and fixed my issues we would be fine now. I felt like I was looking at a lunatic at that point.

I stopped her there. I told her that was a very hurtful thing to say and that we both know that's not true. She sat there and stared into space. I then told her that ever since May, I've been working to improve me for D and myself. There was no way to fix W and I bc W was not open to it and continues to tell me she is not. But, I told her that for her to say I didn't care about her and D is ridiculous. (My slip up starts here). I told her I spent the past 4 months standing in the face of some pretty horrible things to defend our family and our M. If I didn't care then why would I have not just left. W still sat there staring into space. (My slip up ends here).

I then tell W that I will not push this thing forward but I won't stand in her way if she wants to leave. I tell her I still believe this is a horrible decision and is not the answer to our problems. But I tell her I accept that she's said there is no chance for R and I am continuing to work on D and me. I tell her I'm not working on W and I bc she has made it clear that's not what she wants.

I ask her when her Ls will have the papers ready. She says sometime this week. I tell her I am putting together house stuff that needs to get done to sell and expenses we need to look at cutting. I tell her we should sit down later in the week and discuss.

I tell W I would like D to see an IC. W says not until we tell her and only if she needs it. I tell W that once we tell D then she needs to see an IC. W says D will probably be ecstatic W and I are S. W says she would have been ecstatic if her parents had S when she was younger. Unsure how W believes she can lay her perception of things onto Ds experience. Drives me nuts.

Overall, an ok discussion. Her comments about the hotel and not caring obviously got to me. I felt those needed to be responded to, for better or worse.

W believes I'm unwilling to accept blame for my faults and am shirking responsibility for our issues. I believe it's just the opposite and she is unwilling or unable to see and address her faults. No need to hammer that home though. I know my issues and am working to fix them.

I wish W would see that IC. It would be a death knell for my M (not much of a chance now anyways) but I would like her to find happiness and contentment. If not for her, then for my D at least. I fear W will be an anchor on my D as they both get older. W really needs to get through her issues, similar to how I'm grinding through mine. Really wish she would try, if only for herself and D.

S and custody agreements are coming. W seems to think physical S fixes everything. I think she's in for a surprise when it does not. It's unfortunate, but unavoidable at this point I believe. Crazy train, ticket for one please....
Posted By: ForGump Re: A WW? (5) - 10/02/16 08:42 PM
Sounds like one heck of a weekend ... stressful. Or at least I would be.

Why do you think your W seeing an IC (the old MC) would be a death knell for your M? I would think that your W working out her issues would make her a better spouse...?

(Still curious about the physiological evaluation mentioned above....)
Posted By: lt0402 Re: A WW? (5) - 10/03/16 06:34 AM
FG, yeah, a bit of stress last night but nowhere near as bad as earlier in this thing. To be honest, it kind of rolls off now. The only thing that's got me cycling this morning is her comment about how if I'd given her space at the start of this thing we would be back together as a family. Fairly certain that was her trying to hurt me though.

The MC we went to see was extremely validating of my W and not me. Effectively we came out of there with me as the bad guy. I'm sure that if W used her as an IC she would validate Ws feelings and push her further away from our MR. With that said though, if it would help W to find peace then I would be for it. It really would be best for D if W could figure out and fix her issues.

I'm also a bit hazy on the psychological evaluation, but I'd assumed the purpose would be to evaluate W for controlling/anger issues. Effectively highlight that her having sole custody of D would not be beneficial for D. My interpretation, but am open to thoughts from others who have suggested.

CT, am going to read up on Dissoi logioi today. Will give you my thoughts a bit later. W was a business major in college, but always had a leaning towards journalism.

I really appreciate your comments CT. I do love my D and would do anything for her. Everything I do now is to better myself for hers and my benefit. Our R is so much stronger now than it was, and I realize that I truly have missed out by letting our R weaken over the past year before BD. That part makes me hurt, but I can control the trajectory of our R now and in the future. I'll never let that happen again. Thank you again for your kind words brother!

Only journaling for this morning is I went running early. Ws words around giving her space at the start of this weighed on me. I'm guessing that's what she wanted when she said it to me. Had a short cry because of it in the car on the way to work. But I'm choosing not to let it weigh on me.

Meet with the L tomorrow. Be interested in what they say. W mentioned that she's working hard to make the custody agreement so we have the same time we do now with D. I'm reading that to mean it will give her sole custody and I see D in the evenings b/t 630-830 at her place and get D every other weekend. Again, not ok w/ that. W even said that we probably will be in agreement this week. I'm sure that's not the case and I'm buckling down for some messiness w/ the custody piece. Guess we'll find out this week.

In a good place right now. Bracing for some fireworks around custody and S agreement. It's silly that W thinks I am party to the "arguments" occurring over every little thing in our house. That's her circus and I'll continue to address as appropriate. At this point, while I'd still be open to R, the thought is a lot less enticing to me. No way we could do it w/o W doing the work and I'm doubtful she ever will. Preparing to provide stability to my Ds life post W.
Posted By: doodler Re: A WW? (5) - 10/03/16 06:42 AM
Originally Posted By: lt0402
FG, yeah, a bit of stress last night but nowhere near as bad as earlier in this thing. To be honest, it kind of rolls off now. The only thing that's got me cycling this morning is her comment about how if I'd given her space at the start of this thing we would be back together as a family. Fairly certain that was her trying to hurt me though.


It0402,

Yes, the comment is just WW bullsh*t. She's trying to continue to make a case against you; see how you screwed-up, yet again, by not giving her space at the appropriate time? Shame on you! wink
Posted By: ForGump Re: A WW? (5) - 10/03/16 10:18 AM
Originally Posted By: lt0402
I'm also a bit hazy on the psychological evaluation


Oh... Sandi originally wrote "physiological" eval. Maybe she meant psychological and it was just a typo.

Either way, one side requiring the other to have a professional evaluation ... I imagine that will stir up a lot of anger. (Not saying what's right for your situation).
Posted By: fade Re: A WW? (5) - 10/03/16 10:50 AM
My guess is that either you will never get papers from your W (she's got it made right now), or if you do they will call for you to commit suicide. I told you before it is in your best interest to file first. You should have done so already. In a year you will be kicking yourself for dragging your feet.

When you see your L go ahead and instruct them to write-up papers ASAP. Or ask if you can do so yourself - in most states you can simply download them and fill them out. Then have your L review. It would be very much in your interest to get papers written up first because you do not want to negotiate from her initial salvo. That will put you on the back foot from the start.

Write up papers with a 50-50 custody split, joint custody, 50-50 financial split, 50-50 college expenses, but limited, and limited duration support payments. Something you can live with. When your W blows up and comes back with something absurd, then you bring out the threat to file under adultery grounds, force her out of the house, wipe out her half of any savings/equity she could get in litigation, and pay her absolutely zero support, and have her adultery as public record. And dont say a word about what evidence you do or do not have to prove adultery.

If she shows that to her L, he will push her to settle and take whatever support you offer. Settlement gives her half of savings and some support, fighting leaves her with debt and no support. Its like mutually assured destruction, except you can rebound financially and she probably cant, so you absolutely can and would push that button.

Finally, you really, really, really, really need to stop asking her for help with D, talking about fixing yourself, explaining yourself, apologizing or talking about separation. Its extremely aggravating to read because you are handing your W bullets. And trust me, she is saving them up to use on you.
Posted By: lt0402 Re: A WW? (5) - 10/03/16 10:55 AM
doodler, I'm thinking along the same lines. This is a woman who has consistently tried to hurt me and lie to me over the past 5 months. Why would she act any differently right now.

FG, good question. I'd guess it's the spell checker rearing it's ugly head, but unsure. I agree it'd stir up a lot of mess w/ W if I did that. I picture mushroom clouds and people running for the hills in that scenario...pure doomsday...

Just got a text from W saying L is going to need a Financial Advisor to contact about financial stuff. Asking if I have someone I prefer or if I want W to pick one. Need to get clarity from her on what she's looking for. I'd of thought her L had a Financial Advisor they used to work through stuff like that. Guess not.

Weird day. This whole S and custody thing is starting to feel like a business deal. Digging through some pre and post BD stuff has my blood boiling, but am finding level quickly. IC tomorrow followed by L in the afternoon. I'll ask them how to proceed on the Financial Advisor stuff.

Thanks for hanging in there w/ me everyone. This has been a rollercoaster. I'm not sure how to feel w/ the S and custody stuff starting. If you'd asked me how I would feel at this point 2 months ago it would be nothing like I actually feel today. Guess we will see where this thing is going shortly.
Posted By: mvgfwd2 Re: A WW? (5) - 10/03/16 12:31 PM
Don't answer the financial advisor. Let it go. That's her problem. Instead use the delay time while she's waiting for an answer to do as Fade suggests and you file first. Don't help her hang you!
Posted By: ForGump Re: A WW? (5) - 10/03/16 12:58 PM
LT--

Re: "physiological evaluation" -- if your W had some medical condition that affects her ability be independent after the divorce, I don't see that being contentious. But yes, if you accuse her of "psychological" condition... then ... you've got mushroom clouds.

What is your W's plan for life after D? She is currently a SAHM, right? Is she working on getting a job?
Posted By: lt0402 Re: A WW? (5) - 10/03/16 06:30 PM
Fade and MV, I'm going to bring up all of the above with the L tomorrow. If worse comes to worse I'll just tear hers up and have my Ls write one. Fade, what you described is precisely my goal for agreements. Joint custody, 50/50 split, 50/50 finances, short term spousal support. going to discuss in more detail the adultery part with L tomorrow. I hope to not have to bring that into things but I won't do less than 50/50 custody of D. I am absolutely ready to push the thermonuclear button if necessary to get a fair split of D.

On the discussion with her last night, I know it was more in depth than it should have been. My gut told me I needed to tell her a couple things and I did. I knew it wouldn't help the situation but I felt I needed to speak my peace about her seeing an IC and her thoughts that I did not care. Don't really know why, just felt it had to be said.

I'll have our phone accounts seperated tomorrow so W can talk to OM to her hearts content. Funny thing is I haven't checked the account since she last went to see OM. fairly certain she has reverted back to FB to talk to OM as I surprised her by accident and she quickly flipped out of the messenger on there. Truthfully it hurt for a second and I wanted to go into detective mode but that feeling was fleeting. Let OM deal with her issues.

Fade and MV I'll let you know what L says tomorrow. I appreciate the push back on me. I'm trying to not file first so I can look my D in the eyes years from now and tell her I did everything I could go save our family. It may be that i need to break that vow in order to save D and me but lets see what L says tomorrow. Thank you both!!

FG, she is a SAHM. W thinks she can get a job paying six figures and work from 930-3:30 everyday. I've seen on our home pc that she's opened her resume, but I've no clue what she's doing with it. I do find myself fearful that if she got some custody she would take my D and move. Either to OM or back to the city we lived in 8 years ago about 5 hrs away. I really don't know how W will get by post D though. I'm expecting unlimited spousal support to be on her list for the agreement. We will see. W is doing room mother for ads school right now though. That's taking enough time that she can't do stuff at the house apparently. Can't make this stuff up.

Busy day tomorrow. IC in the am, L midday, and GAL tomorrow evening. Won't be able to run but will make up for it on Wed. Thanks everyone!
Posted By: ForGump Re: A WW? (5) - 10/03/16 09:58 PM
Originally Posted By: lt0402
FG, she is a SAHM. W thinks she can get a job paying six figures and work from 930-3:30 everyday.


OK, maybe you do have grounds for having her head examined.

Originally Posted By: lt0402
I do find myself fearful that if she got some custody she would take my D and move. Either to OM or back to the city we lived in 8 years ago about 5 hrs away.


But you know that she can't do that willy-nilly, right? She needs to fight for the move in court.
Posted By: lt0402 Re: A WW? (5) - 10/04/16 08:57 AM
Originally Posted By: ForGump
Originally Posted By: lt0402
FG, she is a SAHM. W thinks she can get a job paying six figures and work from 930-3:30 everyday.


OK, maybe you do have grounds for having her head examined.


Appreciate the chuckle FG! Yeah, unsure how she rationally comes to that. She had a good job making that much pre D being born, but it was a ton more hours and I don't think she realizes how difficult things are in the work force right now.

Originally Posted By: ForGump
Originally Posted By: lt0402
I do find myself fearful that if she got some custody she would take my D and move. Either to OM or back to the city we lived in 8 years ago about 5 hrs away.


But you know that she can't do that willy-nilly, right? She needs to fight for the move in court.


Yep, I do know that, but still worry about it. My W has shown she is willing to do anything to get her way. I find myself worrying and planning for any and all tail risks I can visualize. It's tiring and frustrating.

Had IC this morning and it went well. He asked me at one point why I was continuing to fight and not giving up. Thought it an interesting question. Seems like a blend of things. First, and most important, it's the right thing to do. A stable family benefits all of us. Second, that stability is a massive benefit to my D, though using my D here seems like an excuse on my part. And third, there's probably still some fear of the unknown lurking under the surface. I don't think that's the driving motivator though, but I recognize it's still there to some degree.

IC thinks W is completely under the control of her emotions. Believes her saying I haven't made changes, but then turning around and saying she's angry for changes I've made, highlights her emotional and not rational state. He doesn't think she was being purposefully hurtful in her statement the other night about if I'd given space we wouldn't be in this situation. He does agree that it probably would not have made a difference at that point though.

IC recommended we not see the MC again. Said that my L may have some advice for a pure co-parenting advisor should we want to do that. I'll ask about that today.

Off to discuss options w/ the L. Really disliking my W today for forcing me to go in and hand over the stuff I have on OM to the Ls. I did try to pull up OM on FB this morning (first time since early Aug) and he has apparently blocked me from being able to search for him. Unsure what to read into that, but I'm not even going to try.

Trying to stay strong, but man this [censored]. Will be interested to get your thoughts after discussing w/ the L. Thanks as always everyone!
Posted By: ForGump Re: A WW? (5) - 10/04/16 10:44 AM
Originally Posted By: lt0402
She had a good job making that much pre D being born.


OK, so maybe the hours are a bit unrealistic, but the 6-figure salary part isn't. I respect anyone who can command a 6-figure salary.

Originally Posted By: lt0402
He asked me at one point why I was continuing to fight.


Do you still love your W?

Giving up on a 2-parent family for your child is a big deal, IMHO. No more family vacations to see the Grand Canyon. No more Christmas dinners with everyone around the table. OK, yes, theoretically possible with very amicable divorced parents, but unlikely.

Originally Posted By: lt0402
Really disliking my W today for forcing me to go in and hand over the stuff I have on OM to the Ls.


Why is she doing this? And by what legal means?
Posted By: lt0402 Re: A WW? (5) - 10/04/16 03:16 PM
Yep, W is a smart woman FG. One of the reasons I love her. We used to work together and that's how we met and started dating. She could build herself up to a decent career but she doesn't realize she can't do that and what she wants with D at the same time.

I still love the idea of my W for who she was and who she could be again. This version of W has determined me to be the enemy and I don't recognize who she has become. I feel compassion but not love for this version. Does that make sense? I'm not giving up, but she seems to have given up. I'll continue to fight but I think I'm reprioritizing custody and MR right now. Also, this path is not working so trying a different one may help. We will see.

I see what you are saying on W forcing me. I'm making the choice to do that. She has no input into that choice. I am doing it of my own free will in case I need to leverage it to stand for my daughter and what I believe to be best for her. But end of the day it's fully on me and I'm choosing to do it. Thank you for pointing that out FG. I'm completely in control of me. No excuses.

At my GAL but will post later about the L meeting today. Thanks all!
Posted By: ForGump Re: A WW? (5) - 10/04/16 03:23 PM
My Q about OM was a real question. Didn't ask it to make a point. But glad it helped you think it through!

My W also has crazy unrealistic ideas about life after D ... but I don't think that will make much of a difference to her, even if she had a realistic idea. It's not rational. It's about what her heart craves, and she's willing to do whatever it takes to get it.
Posted By: lt0402 Re: A WW? (5) - 10/04/16 04:51 PM
Ha, sorry FG. Thought you were pointing out that I was laying blame for my actions on my W. I was, but not your question!

My W says she is doing this bc I broke too many promises, didn't listen to her and D, took them for granted, D wants her to leave me, they don't trust me, I'm not sincere in my apologies,I treated them horribly, and a few other things.

I believe it's a combination of pieces of most things above. Forgetfulness, too large of a focus on work and not home life, and conflict avoidance on my part + stonewalling on Ws part are probably closer to the real answers.

She says OM is not what I think it is. I've pressed her on what this means but she's never given me an answer. The only thing I can gather is that she's trying to tell me she doesn't want a relationship with OM and it's only physical. I'm not sure why that would make things different but she seems to think it does. She's seen OM 2x that I know of. They exchanged, and may still, messages in the thousands in July and August. My gut tells me the above is a lie but it is what it is. I can't control her.

As for the legal stuff, she's retained an L with our joint funds.

I have a hard time with the lies. It's all apparently been lies the past few months so I don't know what to trust from her. It leaves me unable to see how this is repairable. Sad really.
Posted By: lt0402 Re: A WW? (5) - 10/05/16 09:29 AM
GAL activity was good last night. Lost my pool match, but had a good time w/ my team there. Nice to get out of my own head for a bit.

Today was national walk to school day so D and I met up w/ about 100 kids and parents at the park near the house to hoof it to school. It was nice being outside at a time I'd normally be in work. D had fun too and wanted to chat pokemon the entire time. W loaded pokemon on her phone last night so her and D can do it as well. W did get upset with me this morning bc I didn't tell her D and I were doing the walk to school thing. I did tell her last week, but I guess she's choosing not to remember. Let it slide off and responded with "ok". I'll probably approach wife later and tell her we need a way to communicate this stuff as we don't currently talk. Thinking about putting a calendar together for us.

W pushing things w/ L now I guess. First the financial advisor question two days ago. Now she's asking for a contact at my attorney's office. Asked my L who's name I should give.

My own meeting w/ the L went well yesterday. L and I were in agreement that it makes sense to slam our own S and custody docs together. Provided my financials yesterday and am providing the other necessary documents by end of day today. We will hammer it out and provide it to W and Ls once it's done. Expressed to Ls again that my big concern is custody so we are putting together a plan for how I'd manage 50/50 w/ my D. I think back to the old A-Team shows and Hannibal, "I love it when a plan comes together...". Just wish this was a constructive instead of destructive plan we're working on, from a MR perspective. Fade, took your suggestions around the terms, hammered through them w/ the L and I/they agree w/ you.

Going to Ds tennis lesson tonight. Working on these docs in the meantime, though also more focused on work here. Hurricane headed our way, so we'll probably be house bound this weekend. Trapped in the house w/ a W who would rather you be out in the Hurricane is not something I'm looking forward to. Will spend a lot of time enjoying D though.

Back to paperwork...
Posted By: cheesyt Re: A WW? (5) - 10/05/16 10:16 AM
LT0402 - bummer about the hurricane. It sounds like you're doing a lot better and are handling this S with the L well. You sound like you're in a good spot.

maybe you can talk your W into doing something outside just as hurricane is doing its thing -Ha! I'm kidding.
Posted By: ForGump Re: A WW? (5) - 10/05/16 10:32 AM
Are you going to request a psychological evaluation as a part of the D? Anger management?
Posted By: lt0402 Re: A WW? (5) - 10/05/16 11:15 AM
Originally Posted By: cheesyt
LT0402 - bummer about the hurricane. It sounds like you're doing a lot better and are handling this S with the L well. You sound like you're in a good spot.

maybe you can talk your W into doing something outside just as hurricane is doing its thing -Ha! I'm kidding.


Yep, with the help of the IC, DB coach, and folks around here it's manageable most of the time. Some of the recent comments helped me frame the L discussion yesterday.

I'm afraid W may have that plan for me as well! smile We're a few hours inland from the storm, but will still get the wind and rain it looks like. Luckily we only have 1 large tree in our yard!

Originally Posted By: ForGump
Are you going to request a psychological evaluation as a part of the D? Anger management?


Not sure yet FG. To be honest, I didn't ask about it yesterday, though I did share my thoughts on Ws controlling and anger issues. I'll ask the L if it makes sense as they put together the agreement.
Posted By: lt0402 Re: A WW? (5) - 10/05/16 06:21 PM
D had a great tennis lesson today. It was a lot of fun going to watch her this afternoon! Going to make it a weekly occurrence. W still giving me the cold shoulder. She sat in the waiting area on her phone. No biggie, left me to go and watch D do an awesome job!

D wanted to ride home with me so we had a good time joking around. Did dinner, then reading for 20 mins, then a little bit of iPad before bed. Joked around as a family and had a good time. Unsure how W is able to flip that switch off and on. It's like Jekyll and Hyde.

D wants me to go trick or treating with her. W has lined up a few other moms and Ds friends to go though. Will need to figure that one out. Let D pick our activity for this weekend and it looks like we are Pokemon hunting (shocker!) on Sunday once the storm passes. Should be fun!

Will finish the paperwork for L tomorrow. Work activity tomorrow evening. Some pressing things I need to focus on for work too. Not enough hours in the day.

Can't wait to run in the morning
Posted By: ForGump Re: A WW? (5) - 10/05/16 08:15 PM
Originally Posted By: lt0402
W still giving me the cold shoulder.


Why would you expect anything different?

Enjoy doing Halloween together. I think we will last that long, and be able to do it together. Next year ... who knows.
Posted By: lt0402 Re: A WW? (5) - 10/06/16 06:52 PM
At this point, not expecting anything different. W seems steadfast in moving forward with this and her attitude hasn't wavered. Oh well. Guess we will see what the next phase of this brings.

Don't believe W is "inviting" me to go out with her and the other moms and kids. Need to think about what I'd like to do with D that night and respond appropriately. We will see.

Papers are all filled out. Have a couple things I need to send over to L tomorrow but the majority of the stuff is complete on my end. Now it's just them, putting the stuff together and us reviewing. W said she'd have an agreement this week. Maybe I get it tomorrow, maybe not. Tomorrow I'll sever the phone lines on our account and she can have her freedom to text away in her mind. She asked again about that today so she's waiting for it. I don't really care at this point, just haven't done it yet bc I've honestly been too busy.

Tonight we had a GAL event for work where we all cut out early and had 50 or so people at a park for cornhole, kanjam, and food. Was a great time and massively needed distraction for me after focusing on all this the past 3 days. There's a girl at work that's a little younger than me and has flirted with me in the past. I've usually just played it off, but I found myself flirting back tonight. Nothing will come of it, but it was actually kind of nice and a good confidence booster. Something different.

Came home to this situation and it was almost like walking into an unfriendly sports arena. W on one side. Me on the other. Our poor D in the middle. Did our "family" thing and put D to bed. I put in the paperwork that I'd like a week on, week off split. I added one day of visitation bt 6-8 by the other parent during each week. To be honest though, I'm not even sure I want that one day with the W at this point. It's such a downer being around her now. I can't imagine how she thinks us seeing each other every night for our D, but living separately would be any different than right now. Right now truly is sad and miserable, probably on both sides, just for different reasons. I keep upbeat and happy but it feels like there is a weight on me.

Who knows though. Weekend coming up. Fallen behind on gym time. Need to get there more and have slacked off. Curious to see what Ws agreements look like when I get them.
Posted By: ForGump Re: A WW? (5) - 10/06/16 10:19 PM
LT

What process/approach/method did you use to come up w/ your suggestion for alimony? Does your state have a formula or some guidelines?

I think you W plans on jumping right into the job market... right?

Also, why did you choose week-on-week-off instead of 2-2-3? I thought the latter was more common. For me (and for my W), a week w/o them would be too much, I think.

Tough times, LT. Hang in there.
Posted By: lt0402 Re: A WW? (5) - 10/07/16 08:57 AM
FG, I have asked the L for help on determining the alimony payments. There's a guideline for child support, but the alimony area is much more gray. Will let you know feedback from them. I did put 1 year for the length of the payments which would start from the day we sign the agreements.

She says she will jump back in, but so far I've yet to see the effort. I've seen where she had her resume open on our home PC, but she doesn't talk to me so I honestly have no clue. I don't want her to flounder post D, but she does not want my help and I can't force her to do anything. I won't do anything to hurt her, but I'm not here to bail her out. Just here to look after D and myself now I guess.

I hate the idea of a week on/week off, but my wife is adamant about D not switching b/t homes during the week. Hence why she wants full custody w/ me only visiting every day of the week. I thought week on/week off was a good starting point and we could negotiate to 2-2-3 if W was amenable to it. It would be hard on both W and myself to go that route.

Hanging in there and the focus on the mechanics of this thing are keeping the emotions at bay. I'm great at ripping through a task to get to a goal so it's been easy to focus on this piece of it. Now that it's winding down I find myself at a weird neutral place.

Just took my phone line off the joint account (technically in wife's name, hence why I took mine off). She has her freedom now. Hope it's worth it. I don't think it changes anything and at this point I don't care to know what she's doing. I just want to get out of this thing w/ a stable environment for my D and without W continuing to exert control over everything in our lives.

I also reached out to a co-parenting counselor recommended by my L. Waiting for a call back to schedule an appointment. No way the MC could walk us through co-parenting and I'm figuring a dedicated counselor on co-parenting is better. I asked W to ping her lawyers for recommendations but she refused. Now I need to figure out how to co-parent with this selfish person. It won't involve me being a doormat again, that's for sure. Unfortunately, that probably drives further anger and resentment, but being separated, maybe that keeps it at bay. Unsure, but we will apparently find out.

No agreements from W yet. Today is Fri and she said they'd have this week. Maybe I go home and there's a stack at the house. Who knows. Don't care. I'm stronger than she is and I've no doubts I'll be ok coming out of this. Come hell or high water, my D will have a stable environment post divorce, regardless of what W does.
Posted By: ForGump Re: A WW? (5) - 10/07/16 09:33 AM
1 yr of alimony seems short, given an 11 year marriage. Will it fly if it goes in front of a judge?

If your W had a 6-fig job before, I bet she can get her act in gear as soon as she needs to, i.e., she doesn't need to depend on you. Maybe that's where the 1 year fuse comes in.

Co-parenting is going to be tough w/ a wayward spouse ...
Posted By: lt0402 Re: A WW? (5) - 10/07/16 11:46 AM
Yeah, I put that 1yr in there looking for feedback from the L. I want to be fair, but I'm afraid she is not looking to be. We'll see when she gets the document to me on her end I guess.

I'm hoping she doesn't need to depend on me bc I'm trusting she can get her ship righted enough to properly care and provide for our D when D is with her. W is extremely assertive that she is capable of doing all of this without me. I truly hope she's right.

I have no clue how co-parenting is going to possibly work with her. It's an uphill battle, but one worth fighting. I'm afraid it's going to be her issues in the end that determine the outcome. Either she does work on them or there's no chance we can properly co-parent. She won't even talk to me right now. Very concerning and frustrating.
Posted By: mvgfwd2 Re: A WW? (5) - 10/07/16 12:08 PM
Negotiate like a Trump. Start with 6 months of payments and compromise at 1 year. Have a few items that you can give away. These are not things you want but during the negotiations you can give them up just to show you are open and flexible. Fair is where you end up not where you start.
Posted By: fade Re: A WW? (5) - 10/07/16 12:23 PM
A custody counselor would be good if you CAREFULLY pick out one (or your L strongly recommends) someone who believes in 50-50. You can also check out the option to have the court appoint a GAL. There is right now some momentum back towards one-parent primary. But be very careful here because I have seen some child counselors/GALS that that always, always recommend primary custody to the mother, even in some tragic cases with crazy or addicted moms. Most are good and fair, but just be careful here.

In terms of negotiating custody, first of all I would not directly discuss/argue this with your W. You could say nothing more than "I refuse less than 50%" and "Im sorry you feel that way" and "Want a Pringle?". Literally, if you never say another thing to your W other than those 3 phrases for the rest of your life you will be good. Let your papers and your lawyer do your arguing for you. If you have a GOOD counselor, let them say it too. But she will fight anything you say, so just dont say anything you want to fight about!


In terms of actually handling custody, I would recommend you look up parallel parenting. Best solution is to keep this amicable and have effective communications between the parents, but I sort of doubt that outcome is really in your control. Parallel parenting is tough for young kids but with only one 9 year old she will be OK. It works especially well with week-to-week, where the hand-off is basically coming home to a different house after school each Friday. There are calendar apps out there specifically for handling custody situations and all necessary communication can be done through these program.

As for the alimony, you are in an at-fault jurisdiction, right? Usually adultery is a ticket out of alimony - either through solid evidence or bluffing. But I think filing no fault and offering 1-year alimony is both fair and smart. You are being gracious offering her a carrot, while at the same time if she fights you on primary custody then you pull out the big stick - filing with adultery on public record, no support, immediate removal from the home, you expose adultery to everyone, and you go for primary attacking her mental state. Even if you dont win it all, she would be financially wiped out. She may be crazy enough to fight, but her lawyer wont be.
Posted By: lt0402 Re: A WW? (5) - 10/08/16 02:55 PM
MV I agree with you. I'm going to discuss with the L after they have a chance to review. Unsure what W would want though, besides the custody piece, but we will see. This is turning into something like a business negotiation, which I'm very familiar with. I hate that it has come to this, but here we are I guess.

Fade, I'll ask my L about a custody counselor. Hadn't heard of this before now. Found a co-parenting counselor through the L, I'm assuming the custody counselor is more of a mediator though?

My W literally fights everything I say. If I say the sky is blue she will argue the shade of blue. It's enough to drive me insane. "I refuse less than 50% custody" has been added to my bank of WW responses though. I think I'll need it a lot before all this is said and done.

Read up on parallel parenting last night and it makes sense. Very structured, emotion removed. I hope it doesn't come to that but with my W not letting go of any of the anger we very well find that's the best way forward. So sad, when we used to be so plugged into each other.

Alimony wise, yes we are in an at-fault jurisdiction. I'm trying to be fair to my W and not let the emotions of the situation drive things. At the same time, she needs to be fair with me, but I have a hard time seeing that she will be based on her perception of the future and also what she's done recently. She's blazing a fiery path of destruction throughout this thing and I'm afraid it continues into the future.

That said, no mention of her agreements being completed. Supposed to have them by last week. If my Ls finish ours first I'll need to decide if I front run her. Again, a business decision, not happy about having to make that choice. That said, if it helps protect D and I then I'll make it.

D has friends over for a sleepover tonight. Wondering if W is trying to get all these sleepovers in bc it'll be hard to do it in an apartment. Told W today that D and I would like to throw our tent in the backyard next Saturday, roast marshmallows over the fire pit, and "camp-out" for the night. W didn't say anything but I know she hated that idea. D and I have been talking about all summer though, just waiting for cooler weather. W hates camping and will be anxious that D is sleeping outside. Her issue to get over. Once D and I are free of this, we will be doing a lot more camping/hiking activities that W has heavily discouraged over the years.

I'm sitting in the office typing this. W is sitting downstairs. Still no interest from W in talking to me unless it's being critical. I went to the gym and to get a haircut today while W and D went shopping for a bday gift for a friend. Came home and D was upset I didn't tell her where I was going. Told D where I'd been and W jumped in and said that wasn't fair and I should apologize to D. I had told D back when this S started and I was GAL that I'd tell her where I was, so I apologized.

W pulled me aside into the garage a little later and told me how this was more of the same and I was breaking promises. Told me that W didn't care where I went or what I did but D does. I Let her vent, told her ok and thank you for letting me know and that was that. I wanted to remind her that she promised a lot of things when we got M that she has not kept, but did not. I'm reminded of that scene from tombstone after doc Holliday guns down Johnny ringo and tells Wyatt Earp "my hypocrisy knows no bounds". Tiring at times.

I find my mind wandering to how W is going to react to these negotiations around custody. Trying to come up with plans for reacting, counteracting, and getting the final agreements to what I believe to be fair. I just wish my W could see all this through my eyes and see the damage she's creating. I think I've done an ok job seeing through her eyes, so far as the issues I've created, but maybe I'm missing something. Who knows. Nothing to do but keep working on myself and my R with my D.

Thanks Fade and MV!!!
Posted By: lt0402 Re: A WW? (5) - 10/08/16 02:57 PM
On a side note, CT I'm hoping to read up on dissoi logoi tonight. Been so tied up in this paperwork stuff I haven't had enough time to devote to it. Sorry bud!
Posted By: lt0402 Re: A WW? (5) - 10/08/16 07:07 PM
Originally Posted By: CT1118

Your W is weak. The above quotes are weak It0402. Dissoi logioi is a form of rhetorical argument - meaning one side of an argument defines the terms of the other side - look it up, let me know what you think. Not sure if your W has been through a liberal arts formal education, but as I read your $hit, the above is what she is doing. Read about it, decide if you agree, if you do, form a defense. Otherwise, but a good shovel and a yard bag, b/c she is leaving some $hit to pick up.


Interesting concept CT. One thing that caught my eye in reading up on it was this quote off one of the sites: "...one reason people argue their side without listening to the other is that they are insecure in their beliefs". Goes back to the whole ambivalence thought my IC has about my W.

It's strange because W does seem to be talking out both sides of her mouth about our MR. She gets extremely emotional when dealing with issues regarding her and I and becomes very wishy-washy and flip-floppy (for lack of better terms) from conversation to conversation. There never seems to be a constant thread or timeline.

However, and I don't know why I didn't see this before, when W is talking to me about issues she sees between D and I (like today) it's a lot more measured and level headed. Nowhere near as pointed or all over the place as the MR talks. She seems to have a full understanding of that and a clear view on it. Maybe the opposite is true on our MR, hence why she's all over the place there.

I'd offer as a counterpoint though, that the concept of working through both sides of an argument (dissoi logoi) could be very beneficial to us. Especially as folks begin their situation. As painful as it may be, stepping into you WWs shoes and taking their view of the issue would help frame where you can improve yourself. The added benefit would be the ability to feel compassion for your WW as you can grasp she is going through a tumultuous time as well, just in a much different way. I'll never forget when AndrewP highlighted that to me a couple threads ago. My grasping that what my W was going through was equally as difficult as what I was, helped frame and understand where she was. Having compassion for her also aided me in righting my own ship as I realized this wasn't just about me. It was truly a turning point and I drew strength from that insight.

Long winded, but CT I agree. She seems to be grasping onto both sides of things and leveraging bits and pieces against me, though very disparately. It would suggest she's very jumbled up inside. She seems to want the "go" side to win so she can be free, but there does seem to be a sliver of the "stay" side still in there. Hell, she got a tattoo on her left wrist that says "Let Go" a couple months ago. What more permanent way to remind yourself not to look back.

Regardless, I won't hold her here. She is free to go if she wants. I won't, however, let her jeopardize mine and my Ds future stability. Would I like my W back? Absolutely. Will I continue to fix my issues and be a stronger and better father and man? Definitely. Will my W ever realize the mistake she's making and rejoin our family? I'm not holding out hope.

I'm pushing forward down my path for myself and my D. My W is welcome to stay in limbo if she likes but she won't hold us back. Maybe we will send her a postcard from the great spot we will be in in the future. Then again, maybe not.

That rhetorical enough? smile
Posted By: lt0402 Re: A WW? (5) - 10/09/16 10:19 AM
Well, feeling some of the down-ness right now. Too windy today to get outside with D. Locked up in the house with W and D. Days like these are a downer and I feel like a prisoner who is at the whims of his Ws mood swings.

Last weekend W and I agreed I'd do Sunday meals. She apparently took that to mean one meal on Sunday, while I took it to mean all. W days she has too much anxiety to give up doing both meals. Had a quiet conversation about it this morning with her. Whatever, will work through that.

The part that hit home is her continuously saying "when you have her during your time you can do whatever you want...". Really hammers home that here we are. She also said that if I wanted to keep pressing on the meals conversation we need to tell D what's going on. She said we could get her down here right now and I (apparently by myself) could tell D what's going on.

At this point I'm tempted to call her on that and tell D soon. I'll speak with IC about it on tues. What's the point in not telling D if W is insistent on driving this to an end. I told W we can't tell D be we need to discuss beforehand how to approach it.

We really need to be out of in house. It's not working. I know if we S then we are done, but the constant reminder of our family is driving me insane. Almost like I'm chasing my tail and won't ever catch it. I'm exhausted, frustrated, and I don't know what.

We will see. Spending time with D right now, though W had pulled her away for a few to help with the laundry. I'm wondering how D is going to react when we tell her. How can I continue to keep her world stable and happy. I've no doubt I'll figure it out but really not a fan of my W for putting us here.

W told me earlier that this was in the works for 10yrs and I put us here. I stopped her and said "we" put us here. No ownership from her whatsoever. Guess there never will be. I'll be the bad guy, but I won't let her take us down with her.
Posted By: ForGump Re: A WW? (5) - 10/10/16 10:58 AM
FWIW, my W tries to place blame on me -- I think it's hard for a W who bails to say, Yep, it's all on me, I did it.

We LBS are of course 50% responsible for the marriage, but we're not talking about marriage. We're talking about divorce. For that the spouse who decides to bail -- without meaningful, cooperative effort to make it work -- is responsible.

I keep thinking about a story I read in the NY Times about how marriages are difficult. In the story, a wise relative gives this advice: "The way to stay married is to not get a divorce."

Anyway, that conversation with your D9 ... oh man .... I hate that your W is so flippant about it. The idea of it ... feels like death to me.
Posted By: lt0402 Re: A WW? (5) - 10/10/16 12:38 PM
FG, that's the part that drives me nuts. I get that it's 50%, or even 60%, my fault for the issues we had in our MR. I've got no issue accepting that blame and like everyone else here I'm actively working to fix it.

The part that's maddening is our Ws accept 0% of the blame. It's 100% our fault. I'm waking up to the reality,though, that my W won't ever change that view. Unfortunate, but it may just be reality.

I'm very apprehensive about the talk with my D. Part of me wants to put it all on my W, but I know my D will need my support and I want her to hear it from me as well. Add to that the spin I'm sure my W will impart to it and we've got some work to prepare for telling her.

W last night got on me for wanting to watch how she blow dried Ds hair. D has long hair and being a guy I was worried I would be unprepared to help if D needed me. W approached me after we put D down, a welcome change, and we discussed. She called it creepy that I'd watch her blow dry Ds hair. I thought that unnecessary. Whatever.

She drove the conversation towards me after that. Said I'm angry and annoyable all the time. She put off on me that we need to get along with each other to co-parent in the future. I let her know that I'm ok with having any conversation she'd like to havr, but again she's got to get over the anger and resentment she's harboring. She shrugged it off and told me to talk to my therapist about my anger issues. Geez....

I did tell W that I wanted to know how to help with Ds hair by "there will be times during the 7 day window she's staying with me" when I may need to help D. W shrugged it off with that's not how it works in our state and it will never be like that. I let her know I would not accept anything less than 50% and left it at that.

Have the day off today so I got up at 5:30, my new normal wake up time, and headed for the mountains for some hiking. 10miles of no people and just woods was awesome. Felt good to get away and.clear the head for a bit. Had a text from W waiting when I got back. To summarize:

W mad be she can't figure out how to log into mint.com account. D mad bc W says I promised I'd take her to the bus stop today, a week ago. I told W I wouldn't be there this am, she said nothing. D said nothing about me taking her yesterday. I remember nothing about it either, and I'm ultra sensitive to commitments now a days.

I'm waiting in the park near the house to go get D from the bus stop now. I'll talk to D about it and apologize if I'm wrong. At this point I'm wondering if W is making this stuff up and leading D to incorrect conclusions. Or if I'm just losing my mind and memory. I'm betting the former, but we will see.

Should have no trouble sleeping tonight, unlike the past couple nights. FG, appreciate your thoughts above! Hang in there brother!
Posted By: doodler Re: A WW? (5) - 10/10/16 01:01 PM
Originally Posted By: lt0402
W mad be she can't figure out how to log into mint.com account. D mad bc W says I promised I'd take her to the bus stop today, a week ago. I told W I wouldn't be there this am, she said nothing. D said nothing about me taking her yesterday. I remember nothing about it either, and I'm ultra sensitive to commitments now a days.

I'm waiting in the park near the house to go get D from the bus stop now. I'll talk to D about it and apologize if I'm wrong. At this point I'm wondering if W is making this stuff up and leading D to incorrect conclusions. Or if I'm just losing my mind and memory. I'm betting the former, but we will see.


It0402,

My XW did a lot of that sort of thing to me. Like you, I thought I was losing my mind and my memory. I finally woke up and realized what was going on. When I started pushing back on the nonsense, she didn't try to do it as often, but I still had to remain alert. I think it's probably a form of gaslighting. Regardless of what it's called, it really does make you feel like you're going insane.
Posted By: ForGump Re: A WW? (5) - 10/10/16 01:12 PM
I don't think you want to battle her at that level. People forget things. Healthy people and healthy couples don't harp on each other for stuff like that. They forgive, they adjust.

Take the high road.
Posted By: lt0402 Re: A WW? (5) - 10/10/16 06:43 PM
Picked up D from bus stop. D got in the car and I asked her if she's been upset this morning. D said yes because she thought I'd be home and we could hang out before school. I asked D if her and I had talked about me being home today and she said, no, mommy told me you'd be home all day today because it's Columbus Day. She said W told her that last weekend when I wasn't around.

I've had issues like this with my W in the past. Where I thought maybe she'd had a conversation with D and made a promise on my behalf. Then W would beat me over the head that I hadn't kept my promise. I am guilty of forgetting stuff, but not to the extent the W has claimed. Very frustrating.

W makes it out today like I crushed my D by not being home when she woke up and she said D was beside herself and crying bc of it. I find myself wondering if W has some sort of issue with memory or if this is and always has been purposeful. Whichever it is, I have a system now that helps me remember and track what I've told W and D I would do. Fixing my issues for myself and my D.

Tired and off to bed. Doodler and FG thanks for your thoughts! I don't think I even bring up the above to the W. Won't do any good. I've told her I think she should resolve her anger issues and she told me to pound sand. I'm sure this would be met with similar.

Her also are still cranking on things. We will see if the agreements come this week.
Posted By: cheesyt Re: A WW? (5) - 10/11/16 03:36 PM
lt0402- I'm guessing the W didn't blow away this weekend? Ha!

I'm glad to hear you're trying to prepare for when you have hair duty for your D. I don't know that most people think of that!

My W for a while there conveniently "forgot" everything we talked about, surrounding and not surrounding D. It was rather annoying and frustrating. Perhaps it's part of their own delusion. Hang in there.
Posted By: rich4j Re: A WW? (5) - 10/11/16 07:42 PM
LT

Havne't been on in a while so was catching back up on your sitch and it sounds like a replica of many of us here.

You are the reason the marriage is done based on her so don't try to get her to change her view...its a lost cause and its something any WAW/H does to make them feel better about their decision. My STBX after a year now is still thinks she is a saint and I ruined it all. I am also responsible for ISIS, earthquakes and floods Its their reaction to rationalizing all that is wrong

Her behavior with your D is exactly the same as my stbx. Just keep track of everything and be overly clear with your D on things so your WAW can't cloud up the communications.

Being the house---ugh. It's hard and was the stress that led me to not sleep and eat for 5-6 months. I know how hard it is so hang in there

Continue to focus on you and your daughter and how best to manage the chaos.
Posted By: lt0402 Re: A WW? (5) - 10/12/16 06:40 PM
Cheesyt, nope, W anchored herself down and the winds didn't sweep her away! On the "girl" stuff I do get worried I won't know how to help my D with some things. I've no doubt I can figure them out, but I'd prefer to be prepared. So different being a girl than a guy!

The rewriting of things and the convenient forgetting of stuff seems to be a staple of our WWs. If it doesn't fit their story then drop it or make it fit. At this point we really shouldn't pay too much attention to it I guess.

Rich, I'm really seeing that convincing my W her perception is skewed is very much a lost cause. You're right that nothing I say can change her views. At this point it seems like this is about minimizing the damage to my D and myself. If the W is going to change her mind, it seems like it will not be because of something I say. That realization is both frustrating and comforting at the same time. Almost feels like a burden has been lifted off me.

One of the best things to come out of all of this though is my booming R with my D. I think we both make each other so much happier now. My ability to communicate with her is leaps and bounds above where it was before. Seeing how happy my D is every day gives me hope that all will be good in the future.

Going on 5 months of in house S now. It [censored] more than just about anything I can imagine. A handful of us on here are going through it and I find myself hoping it's helping to make us stronger people in the end. I think it is, but I guess we have to wait and see.

Journaling...

Getting more focus on work recently. I've got a project right now that I know will make my company so much better so it's helping me channel some of my energy and aggression constructively. It's good to have some focus on work again, just to get some balance.

Took 2 hrs off work today to do lunch with my D at her school. Had an awesome time and we got to joke around a lot and laugh. D got new rubber bands on her braces yesterday and chose the two colors of my college. Got to love my little football fans taste in colors! Made me very happy.

Got out of work a little late so no gym. Got home, did family time on the couch for dinner then D and I played some iPad together while W did her iPhone. W and I read on the couch while D did her 20 mins of reading then we all joked around for 15 minutes before bed.

W asked for one thing from me around our investment accounts. Gave it to her earlier today. My Ls are working up my docs and I meet with them to review in 2 weeks. Keeping them in the loop on all of Ws requests. We will see if W provides the agreements to me this week,as I was supposed to get them last week. I don't think she's stalling. I think she wants them done asap.

Doesn't really bother me as much as it had in the past. I think I'm at a point where I feel indifference to the outcome of my W and I. It's my D and custody where my focus currently lies. I can work to control that outcome. My W will need to make her own decisions about her and I. I'll not allow myself to be toyed with by her anymore. If she wants in then she can work on it. Not holding my breath that happens though.

A lot of good posts recently talking about not wasting your time with people who don't want you for who you are. There is always someone out there who does want you for who you are. I see my W now fits the former. I won't settle for anything but the latter.
Posted By: hawker Re: A WW? (5) - 10/12/16 07:46 PM
Sounds like you are in a good place LT...that is so awesome the relationship you are building with your D!!! So I take it she had Redskin bands on her braces! hahaha....I agree that we can't control our WS but we can control our actions and feelings in response to what they do or don't do. There is someone out there that wants you for who you are...I along with everyone here thought we had found that person but they are there no more.....don't settle!!!
Posted By: Surfer Re: A WW? (5) - 10/16/16 01:08 AM
LT

Sounds like you are starting to level off and really stabailise. FWIW my relationship with my W only started improving say 2 months after she left. When I have kids more and she has less financial support I believe there will be more loss for her and more respect. In the meantime I am giving less of a sh!t. Happy to talk but also happy about a life where I rarely see her and just have fun with the kids.

Keep that chin up and keep up with the gym!

Surfer.
Posted By: lt0402 Re: A WW? (5) - 10/17/16 07:50 AM
hawker, yeah, I'm excited about my R with my D. It's the one good things that's coming out of all of this. I'm with you that I'd thought I had found that one person, but the more I learn about relationships and the more I see how my W is now, the more I question that. Not looking to settle for something that's not beneficial for both W and I!

surfer, I still have my ups and downs, but the magnitude of them is waning. I've been able to fight back the outright disrespect from my W, but there's still a ton of resent and contempt lingering with her. Unsure how that ever clears itself up. At this point I'd give it a marginal chance of ever going away. Been slacking on gym time, but got back into the swing this weekend. That's a definite need as I need to build back up my energy!

Thanks to both of you for the words of encouragement! Now some journaling.

Been hovering in others threads the past few days. Haven't really been ultra motivated to get in here and put down details. Unsure how I feel right now, but I know that I'm tired and mentally/physically drained.

Part of me wants to take the reins on this S thing and shove it over the finish line. W hits me multiple times per day, every day asking for this detail or that. Some of the stuff I only have access to (work stuff) and some of it we both have access to via our mint.com account where I've always tracked our finances.

W continues to be a drag at home as well. I can't do anything right, she won't have a conversation with me, she won't even respond with a yes or no most of the time when asked a question. I've gotten rid of most of the eye rolling, "joking" about me with D, and other overt disrespect, but this attitude stuff still lingers.

For example, W and I agreed that I'd do the evening routine one night each week (homework, dinner, meds) after I went to my Ds tennis lesson on Wednesdays/Thursdays. Come home Thursday and start working on homework w/ D and W tells me that it's not my night to do it, bc I'd been home Monday (Columbus day holiday). I tell W that's not what we agreed to, but she's adamant I'd used "my one day" that week. I re-send her the text where we agreed to things, but she doesn't budge. Now I'm going to need to setup a firm schedule for that to let her know fully my expectations.

Then yesterday, W gets upset about the washing machine. Tells me that every time I use it it breaks the next time she uses it. I show her what I'm doing, it's no different than what she's doing, and she still is mad that I'm "breaking" the washing machine. No apologies from me, but I will probably look to get someone out to look at it.

Yesterday evening, my day to do my Ds meds and Food, W gets upset bc I don't put probiotics and fiber into Ds water for dinner. I'm out in the garage after and she comes out to talk. Tells me that's the reason her and D don't trust me and I need to come up w/ a way to remember to do that stuff and D will get really sick if I don't. First, I know D won't get sick. Second, I tell her that while I understand her concern, I continue to tell her I need more hands on experience w/ "her" routine if she wants me to follow it. She gets upset and says there's no way she'd let me do it more bc I can't follow simple instructions. She says I can move away and do the routine anyway I want if it's that unimportant to me.

I've got a 4 day business trip coming up next week and W was pressing me yesterday for what time I'm leaving on Sunday. Who knows what that's for, but could be for a trip to see OM. We'll find out later in the week I guess.

All of the above are why I'm tired and feel ready to pull the ripcord at times. It's almost like I'm sick and tired of the unnecessary drama. I'm really starting to rip back into the past few years of our MR and it's tough to see my W ever opening up to correcting our issues. It's discouraging and I feel like there's no headway from anything that I do currently. I'm not saying that in a sad and frustrated way, just more of a weary onlooker kind of way. I find myself at what I believe to be the gray between detached and dependent, but with more of a leaning towards detached. Swings at times, but most swings have been toward detached.

The counter to all of the above is that I still love my old W. I still love my D. I still love my family. New W is attacking all of that and I find my inner being wanting to defend until the end.

I am reaching a place now, though, where I'm not slowing the process. If W needs info then I provide it, but I also provide it to my Ls if I haven't already. Based on Ws questions, I believe my Ls are ahead of hers in regards to finances. Should have my first draft done next week. Hers was supposed to be to me 2 weeks ago. Unsure when they will get it done, but based on her pressing me for details, it seems like she's going full speed ahead.

I still don't want this D, but I'm at a place where I'm ok with it if that's what it comes to. D and I went out yesterday and hunted pokemon at a new park and had a blast doing it. I did feel like my energy level was low though and it wasn't as fun for her as it could have been. Need to keep working on myself. D and I also spent a bunch of time together Saturday morning, before she hung out with friends and Sunday afternoon when we were relaxing after our morning trek. D is an amazing kid and it's exciting to watch her grow into her own.

I've convinced D that we would have a great time going to the mountains I'd scouted out last Monday. Hoping to get up there before it gets too cold her, but may need to wait until the spring. Think we're going to go back to the park from sunday next weekend so we can go do some stuff we didn't get a chance to. It's going to suck being away from D next week for 4 days though. Worries me leaving her w/ W for those days as well. I'm convinced that W and I are a good mix for D and having only my W around imparts a decent amount of negativity and stress on D.

So, that's it. I'm ok with my future. I'd like my W in it, but if not, then I know my D will be in it. Continuing to work on me. Some good reading on Trust in relationships and how it relates to game theory and probabilities. Right up my alley and I feel like it's helping me build some skills for the future, or at least better frame things in my mind.

Thanks all for your support as always!!!
Posted By: fade Re: A WW? (5) - 10/17/16 02:14 PM
A big, big red flag in your last post is you agreeing to basically watch your kid for 1 night a week.

95% of of the time, a divorce settlement will codify the status quo. That is why it is so important to set the status quo of you being a 50%+ parent to the extent your work schedule allows.

However, you have agreed that you are a 1-night a week parent. God forbid you even put this in writing where she can use it against you. This is a huge mistake! If she has this in writing, you need to have a lot more things in writing to refute that you are a 1-evening a week parent. And absolutely stop asking your wife for help with your D. You can figure out how to brush her hair on your own.

You need to document being a 50% parent. There is no point arguing with your wife over who will add the vitamin nonsense to your daughters water. But you need to be present with your D most days, in the home, or much preferably at the library or the park playing pokemon, etc. And then write all of this down in your daily custody journal!

Finally, promise me that you will re-read this thread in a year. Because I promise you that you will not recognize the guy writing this, nor understand how he could have put up with such nonsense. Its time to pull the plug on this situation, and you should push your lawyers so you do it first.
Posted By: DonH Re: A WW? (5) - 10/17/16 08:57 PM
I have to agree with fade here. It's almost like dealing with an abused spouce or someone living in dysfunction and after a while it becomes normal so what really is normal no longer makes sense. It's nearly as if your W could say, "LT, you don't know how to take care of D. You have to hop on one foot while twirling your underwear on your finger before your pour her milk." And you would answer "help me to understand W so I can learn how to do these things correctly." I swear that's how crazy things have gotten and you somehow continue to let her lead you around by the nose like this! You have to stop allowing her craziness. She really is the crazy one here who has fabricated an alternate reality and you are falling for all of it. You know how many kids have ZERO probiotic added to their water and yet they don't get sick? Yet your batshit crazy wife tries to tell you that you are going to get D sick and you stand there saying "I'm sorry." See why I say it's nearly like you are an abused spouce in the depths of dysfunction? We are back to where we were with doing the meds "correctly". I don't want to be mean but do you really need us to tell you how crazy this is?

You really need to man up here or never mind getting w back - you will lose your D 90% of the time. How can W have respect for someone she belittles on a daily basis? Again, I don't want to join W in berating you but you have to call her out on this nonsense! At this point if it's W talking about taking care of D, it's likely nonsense. Who makes W right about all of it and you wrong? Who? Only if you allow it, my friend - only if you allow it!
Posted By: lt0402 Re: A WW? (5) - 10/18/16 09:05 PM
Fade and DonH, tough but good and needed feedback. Home late from a GAL tonight but will respond tomorrow.

Quick journaling. Got home from pool tonight. Good time and good break from things, though I remain exhausted. Walk in the door and W asks if we can talk for 2 minutes. First she goes into a story about how a college friend is coming home to visit about 3.5 hrs from here. It's about 1hr from OM and in his state. She'd like to go down Saturday to see her and some other friends and come back Sunday. Exact same MO as previous two trips to see OM. She tells me she's not sure it'll happen, blah, blah, blah. But she may go if it does. Same lead up she did to the last two times she went to see OM.

It was strange. Almost like she was asking permission. I'm not mind reading, but common sense is she is going to see OM. It doesn't hit as hard as it used to, surprisingly. However, I'm wondering if there's someway I should react to it. Either with her or with the Ls. She's a very smart woman, but she's a horrible liar for some reason. There's about 50 other ways she could have spun this and previous visits to not make them seem like what they were. Open to thoughts.
W was extremely nice and not combative in this dialogue which is vastly different than any other dialogue we have had the past 2 months which have all been spew. She acted the same way when she tried to lie about OM trips #1 and #2. If this is a trip to see OM it'd explain why she's been pressing me so hard for D info for the agreements lately. Also explains why the past 3 weeks she's been eating almost nothing and exercising more than usual. Not going to detective mode. Just noting the inconsistencies and looking for opinions on how to react.

Second, earlier today I told her last week I'm going to my Ds parent teacher conference in 2 weeks. She is welcome to come to, but I'm definitely going. After the first discussion above, W brought up the idea that we allow D9 to stay home alone while we are both there for an hour. Complete reversal on that and not my overly controlling W. Unsure what that's about. She asked my opinion, again unusual, and I told her I'd think about it and we could discuss later.

Strange. I feel nothing with regards to her trip right now. More confused about D thing and shocked by Ws inability to craft a real story. W told me she wouldn't go visit OM so long as we were still M but I never really believed that.

Co parenting counselor tomorrow for me. They want to meet us individially first. W meets them later in the week. Be interesting to see how that is. Maybe I'll run the above by her. I also have my IC on thurs so we will see what he says to.

Will respond to fade/don in the am. Thanks guys, know that you are extremely appreciated!
Posted By: Surfer Re: A WW? (5) - 10/19/16 01:38 PM
LT

Your W is my W 5 months ago. See today's update. Don't disparity. Basically she is nuts. I bet she looks nuts too at times. If she looks, she sounds nuts, etc guess what....she is. Temporarily. Or should I say totally illogical. I've had it all, from putting too much toothpaste on the kids toothbrushes to the washing, ironing, dishwasher OCD. Forget it. Don't do what she tells you to do. Just say, okay, you know how to do this your way I just do it normally - I am clearly struggling. Let her do it. Don't struggle. But most importantly do not enter into an arguement with her. This is her modus operandi. She needs to make you out to be the bad man. It's also part projection too I think. Anyway, just avoid it. If she starts off nice and changes to attack, exit the convo. Pronto. Nothing else to add. Just set a boundary and exit (sorry this is not working for me). She will spew the feck out but if needs be, leave the house. So - hate her crazy was done.

Now the OM trip. You know the drill she is going anyway. Just don't make it easy. Don't call her out on it either. If it does not work for you say no doesn't work for me. If it does and you get time with the kids - take the time and don't give her it back if she asks for it.

Don't pay any mind to what she is up to or who she is with. She is anWW and you don't want her. You want your W.

Now bear in mind. If you WW does turn a corner - again see my sitch today. It could of cours be BS. My W could be manipulating - not too sure she as she is getting consistent - it let's see. But if she does. You still do not want her back. She is going to have to be putting in some serious work.

See the way I see it, now I understand more, is you are not on the back foot. You Are very much on the front foot my friend. You just don't know it because it doesn't feel that yet. You it will though. Trust me. I wouldn't be surprised if she moves out at some point. She may not. But she may. Don't fret if she does. Best thing that happened to us. Certainly to me and the kids given her personality 5 months ago. Her R with the OM will, most likely fall apart.

You MUST get down the gym, get fit and confident and be superdad. Your only jobs. All sounds like leisure to me - Oh yes on top of that you need to go out with friends and have fun! Could even date if you feel it's right. You mean WTF......???? Even that is like a dream on a plate. Or you could sit about worrying which pot of boiling water has the bunny in......I know what I'd rather do.

Hang in there mate. Hang in. You are doing great. Just stay off the rollercoaster.

Surfer.
Posted By: mulesqb Re: A WW? (5) - 10/19/16 02:48 PM
Hi lt - I hope it's ok that I jumped in here. Just wanted to throw you some support. Here's the thing. From what I am reading the in-house sep is your biggest obstacle. I did it. It's so hard. Any problem she has with you is multiplied 10 times over. And you are seeing way too much of her and really hanging on every interaction you have with her. It is holding you back from working on yourself, becoming more attractive, giving her true space and GAL. This is not any fault of yours but I think it is what is draining you so much. It's throwing the situation in your face constantly and hence your thoughts are always about the R.

I was there. It is the absolute worst. The day my XW moved out was unreal. I had dreaded it. But the minute she closed the door behind her the entire house decompressed. All the mental and emotional drain started to heal. It was at that point that I started to slowly but surely become the person I wanted to be. It removed the biggest obstacle in the way.

It sounds like you are working on S but in the meantime can you put more space between the two of you?

I know this is an incredibly tiring and draining process. But keep working on you. That's what counts right now. Your future starts from there. Start working on being the attractive version of lt that you want to be. You can handle this.

Strength and Honor

Mules
Posted By: Surfer Re: A WW? (5) - 10/19/16 11:00 PM
Mules you are bang on. I have never seen the in house separation thing work. I totally agree with the decompression. Happened exactly the same. Healing began. You

Surfer.
Posted By: lt0402 Re: A WW? (5) - 10/21/16 02:03 PM
fade, I'm home every day of the week and am with my daughter most hours I'm home. my wife has consistently pushed back on the meals/meds situation and I've been trying to break down that barrier. she tends to get high anxiety and extremely combative when I do, so I was trying a different more structured approach, though I can see how it could be viewed negatively. I keep finding myself wanting to move towards a cooperative approach with my W, but I'm seeing how she just doesn't care to do that.

I'll definitely re-read all this in a year. It's like I can see the light through the cracks in the wall right now, but I realize I'm not fully there yet. I meet w/ the Ls when I'm back from my work trip next Thurs and they should have a first draft of things.

DonH, it has become my norm. It's really difficult to separate what is normal and what is dysfunctional after having been in this situation for so long. I'm making progress on peeling back the more irrational stuff. I'm having difficulty figuring out how to properly address it and push back to something productive though. As an example, I showed up unannounced at my Ds tennis lesson yesterday bc we did a volunteer event at work and it ended early. When she saw me, W looked like someone had smacked her in the face. I went bc I wanted to and I enjoy seeing how D is doing. Such a small thing, but such a large overreaction from W. Getting better at doing things bc I want to do them, but still at times move down the path of least resistance. Working on fixing that.

Surfer/MulesQB, will come back and respond tonight. Was trying to respond in your thread last night, but crashed after putting D to bed.

Quick journaling. W sent a text and told me she was not going to visit her "friends" this weekend near where OM lives bc they couldn't get things together. I just responded with ok and left it at that. It is what it is.

I went to the co-parenting counselor for my first visit on Wednesday too. It was an individual session. Per the IC, W has yet to schedule her individual session. Guess we'll see how that goes or even if she does it. IC seems good from talking to her though.

Went to both of Ds tennis lessons on Wed and Thurs. That was fun and she's doing awesome. Very cool! D chose to ride home with me on Wed and we had a blast joking around. On Thurs, W took D after her lesson to a school sponsored dinner at a fast food place nearby. Both nights after dinner, D and I studied on the couch and then hung out together and played/watched some football right before bed. Hoping to catch part of the meteor shower with her this evening.

Hunting pokemon with her sunday morning. Getting pumpkins and doing random stuff with her tomorrow. All around a great weekend and am looking forward to it!

Thanks all for the feedback/support/thoughts. The honest, and sometimes, tough feedback is definitely appreciated too. Getting there, but realizing I've still got a bunch of work to do. Heading out from work to hang out w/ D for dinner and fun. Chat w/ all ya'll later!
Posted By: hawker Re: A WW? (5) - 10/22/16 06:24 AM
You sound like you are doing great lt!!! I'm glad that you are doing what you want like going to D's tennis lesson even though ur W didn't know.... good for you! It sounds like you and D's bond is really tight and I'm happy for you!!
Posted By: lt0402 Re: A WW? (5) - 10/22/16 08:27 PM
I've been slacking on updates recently with work being hectic. Surfer, you are right. I am not on my back foot. I realized this right before W told me she wasn't going to see her "friends" this weekend. There are times when I am caught off balance by her, but they are becoming fewer by the day. I don't see her anywhere in the same light as I used to see my W now. Kind of [censored] but that's how it seems to be. We went as a family today to get pumpkins, go to dinner, and make a quick visit to the toy store. Felt no stress or pressure at all during it. W seemed to warm up a little, but it won't last. She still will not converse with me directly most times. All convo is wrapped around our D9.

She did spew tonight. We got home and she went to take a bath. D and I built a pillow fort and played Pokémon and scientist (a game we made up). Did that for 1.5 hrs. W asked us to do meds at 830 if she wasn't down yet. Slipped my mind as we played. W came down at 835 and got agitated we hadn't done it. I offered we had forgotten in the midst of our playing. Did meds and all good, though W still angry. Didnt stress me out like it has in the past Bc I know 5-10 minutes is no big deal. Seemed like controlling behavior by her anyway.

Surfer, funny you mention the dating part. While I'm not looking to date, I did download a dating app. I guess I'm curious about what else is out there since it seems like the next step in my journey. W has adamantly said she's out so at some point I'll need to start meeting women again. Unlike my W, I do want a partner in the future. A couple months ago I would have liked it to be her, but I can't be with her the way she is now. Again, [censored], but it is what it is. I won't be dating anytime soon, but I want to be ready when the time is right.

Mules, it's awesome you stopped in here! I've taken great solace from your thoughts in CTs and FGs threads and you are very much appreciated. I think you are spot on with the in house S comment. It's like I'm having to fight the same battle day after day and each day it just resets itself. A S version of Groundhog Day. I get to the gym 4-5 times a week typically and that's helped to balance me but it's also adding to the tiredness I think.

W is definitely pushing the S forward. We are still sharing the MBR too. I moved out of the mbr when W first went to see OM. I moved back in the second time she went to see him. She keeps talking like this is an issue but I've offered her to leave the MBR and her to leave the house if she feels like she cannot be around me. She views those as unfair and maybe I am too firm in them, but I view her thoughts around situation as irrational. I believe there is both strength and honor in my stance. I'm attempting to be firm but fair with W in our interactions and my decisions. I would not expect her to be treating me this way were our roles reversed here.

You are also spot on about my future starting here. I am working on myself for me and my D9 now. I'm a good dad, and I know that now. I'm also a good person and my W cannot convince me otherwise. I'll keep building on all of that and as each day passes I more firmly know it's going to all Be good in the future.

Hawk, yeah, i know when her anxiety is going to kick in but I'm working to not let it influence my decisions. That was a bit of a test for me to see just how hard she'd push back and fight. Funny thing is, I walked in confidently, said hello, and sat down and she was agitated but never brought it up to me. I had a great time watching D too! Still have my ups and downs, but the ups outweigh the downs by a decent amount now. Hope you are doing well hawk!

All, thank you for your thoughts! I'd be well back on the trail were it not for everyone here. I appreciate you helping to push me forward, though I may stumble at times! I'm travelling the next few days but will swing in to check up on others hopefully tomorrow!
Posted By: Surfer Re: A WW? (5) - 10/23/16 01:12 PM
Hi matey.

There's little new here. She is still keen to spew. Ignore it. It's all horse sh!t. Can't remember if I told you I got the same for not putting the right 'pea sized' amount of toothpaste on kids toothbrush. I could have just said "are you a fcuking moron? It's a pea. It is therefore pea sized. Does it now to need be class one pea sized you Fkucing ####" Instead I validated (and thought the above LoL). Stay calm though all this mate.

The only thing you added was about the dating app. I did this with an app that rhymes with "cinder". Yours would have rhymed with "minder" no doubt - LOL, just joking. Seriously, I did exactly the same 4 times now. Downloaded looked etc. Someone wanted to get in touch. Delete. Realised WW friends might have contacts on there. Delete. Realised I am not ready (most important)" delete. I have decided I need to be happy with me again, properly, not just mostly, always. Then I will go back to the dating scene. However, I actually think when I am happy love will find me.......I will be off the market before I have found myself again. Long before I imagine.

Let's see.

You are a rock mate. Kids remember this.......

Surfer.
Posted By: lt0402 Re: A WW? (5) - 10/23/16 02:27 PM
I hear you surfer. The spew hasn't been massive lately but for some reason she laid it on thick last night and this morning. Hell, she got mad that I took the recycling down to the curb the other day. I'm a horrible, horrible person...geez

I do find myself wondering if us being physically S will reduce her anxiety level and she will be more balanced. If that's the case though, why even try to keep this thing together. She has a ton of work to do on herself that I can't do for her. Without her doing that I see no way to attempt to fix our MR. It's a shame.

The dating app that rhymed with "patch", ha!, was interesting. Saw someone on there my age from my office. Seems very mainstream nowadays. I'm not there yet though. I am further from my W, in regards to being attached to her (positively or negatively,) than I have ever been though. Scary but liberating st the same time. No doubt there will be backslides, but this really is all about my D and I now.

On the W confrontation front she got mad bc I put out ads mess this morning without asking W if D should have her Allegra. W got mad bc the washer wouldn't " work right" and I was the last person to do a load. W got mad bc I got D home 15 minutes later than we said we would, even though I texted W and told her we'd be late. Got D home AT lunch time, instead of 15 minutes before it. Can't make this up.

Took D to a new state park today. 8500 acres of fun! We did about 5 miles this morning of exploration and chit chat/joking around. D is such a free spirit, it's amazing. Saw a cool lake, a beaver lodge, had some fun around a few of the creeks and skipped some rocks. Caught a brand new Pokemon too, which got us both excited. All in, an amazing time. I asked D how I was doing with my promises and listening (hers and Ws two biggest complaints) and I got two "greats" back from D. Of course I ask what I could be doing better and D responds I could be listening better to mommy and doing what W asks and not doing what she doesn't ask. Same responses for the past few months. Happy D thinks her and I are good now.

I'm sitting on an airplane headed to a conference in Boston for 4 days. Going to miss my D immensely but it may help to decompress away from W for a few days. i meet with my Ls when I get back to discuss the agreement on our end. Still awaiting Ws, though I may get this week. We will see. Like you surfer I feel as though I'm in limbo right now. I do feel like this thing will move pretty quick once the agreements are hammered out though. Working to wrap my brain around that and have a few plans in place.
Posted By: hawker Re: A WW? (5) - 10/23/16 03:05 PM
Lt, sorry about your redskins but it give the cowboys more breathing room. Haha. Thanks for the encouraging words on my thread it does help and you are right I think some of us "summer" people are doing better. I went out with friends this weekend and the thought of dating again makes me ill. Lol. I know I'm not ready and I'm not looking. I am good with me and my friends and what will happen will happen. Hope you have a great trip!
Posted By: Surfer Re: A WW? (5) - 10/24/16 01:35 AM
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On the W confrontation front she got mad bc I put out ads mess this morning without asking W if D should have her Allegra. W got mad bc the washer wouldn't " work right" and I was the last person to do a load. W got mad bc I got D home 15 minutes later than we said we would, even though I texted W and told her we'd be late. Got D home AT lunch time, instead of 15 minutes before it. Can't make this up.


Ignore this. It's just spew. I had this for months. At least 6 and solid rage. She was being a total b!tch. I exited, validated etc. I did anything so my kids didn't get woken. She was scaring them a lot - and me. S would help, but it won't necessarily help the R. I feel a lot happier with her gone, WW, but I miss my lovely W. Weird how they change. Sandi has such insight as to why. For me I don't thing she will truly have any regrets until I pull the money and take 50% of the kids time. I am struggling with this. As I sit pondering how exactly to make some artwork work for her 40th. It's something from the kids, I want to make it perfect. But actually, I should probably say to the kids. Here's the concept. Here's the glue and scissors - make it look like an 8 and 6 year old have done it. Sad, we perhaps are spending so much time really wanting back a person that has gone. A person in love. Let's face it you never want what you can have. Seems like the DB process right through.

Talking of which, when in Boston, if you go down to the quayside you will see a lot of tea floating in the water, can we have it back please? No only joking, don't look at the water, look up at the very top balcony of the Custom House building. The one that overlooks the water. It's a Marriott now - or was. It's got a nice circular lobby if you like buildings you could pop in. It was there on that balcony on Sept 11th 2004 that I was on bended knee, around 3pm asking my girlfriend if she would marry me. She seemed like such a happy, non-wayward wife then. Ah well - happy memories.

The only other place we went was the cheers bar, the park and various restaurants.

Cool stuff with your D. Be that perfect example. My D and S would tell me to listen too. I do much, much more. I think in hindsight I would have set her some boundaries for these conversations, problem is you need to so this out of earshot of the kids if she goes neuclear easy. The last they want is parents arguing. They don't need that it screws the, up.

It's kids holidays here. I have em from Weds to Sun so I am taking them to a famous theme park in the North of England. They will love it. Have also invited grandma and grandad who they are missing so much. We will stay overnight then visit relative they are desperate to see. Then got an inflatable assault course on water at the 2012 Olympic pool in London booked. I like to do things like this. It builds memories for them. Rather than just passing them an iPad so I can do my thing or taking them to my friends - which WW seems to consider 'fun'. Going to have a crack at taking them skiing soon.

Enjoy the course and have a safe journey. At least you will get some peace. I wouldn't get in touch with W at all if I were you.....see what happens. Be ready for the calls and validate but that's it.

Take care.

Surfer.
Posted By: fade Re: A WW? (5) - 10/25/16 07:20 AM
Sounds like things are going well.

I suggest you delete that app though - just having that app is enough to blow up an adultery case if it comes to that. I saw that happen recently - a free account ended up costing a guy over 6 figures!
Posted By: lt0402 Re: A WW? (5) - 10/26/16 08:02 PM
Fade, yeah, I'm at a somewhat steady place right now. I did take that app off. Hadn't responded to anyone, but I know that I'm nowhere near ready and willing to start looking for other people. Still have some work I need to do on myself first. Appreciate the suggestion and thoughts!.

Back from my work trip. A good trip overall. Went into the office after landing but I cut out a little early to go to Ds tennis lesson. W saw me and was instantly cold and perturbed. Said hello to D who was happy to see me there. Said hello to W and got the cold shoulder. It's the right thing for me to do though.

D asked to ride home in my car. We had a fun time joking and talking about the past few days. Came home, did dinner with W and D in front of the tv, D did her shower, and then we read our books on the couch while D studied for a test. Smart kid!

D and I snuggled and did some iPad for the last 30 minutes before bed. We put D down to bed and then I went in mbr to get ready for bed. Get a text from W:

W: "Do you want to talk about the draft of the separation agreement or would you rather get it from your L?"

I go down to put my laundry into the drier and ask W if she has an electronic copy she can send me. She tells me her L had not finished it. She wants to talk about the custody piece and I tell her I'm not willing to do less than 50/50. She tells me I'm being selfish, am only thinking of myself, and she cannot go a full week without seeing my D (who's being selfish?). I hold my line there and she progressively gets nastier and drops an "f" bomb. I tell her I won't speak with her when she is talking to me like that and I leave. She screams behind me that I'm such an a-hole. I flip my laundry into the drier and she comes in the laundry room 5 minutes later. Speed about how unfair I am and how I'm putting D in a horrible place and W knows D will pick her in front of a judge. Spews a bit more then turns around and walks away.

in turn, I go to her and tell her that I've given this situation a ton of thought and the best thing for our D is a 50/50 split. I'm happy to take full custody and W can do the 2hrs and evening visits and every other weekend side of things if she would like (what she thinks I should do). W starts crying about the week on week off and how she cannot go for a week without seeing D. W tells me how D doesn't trust me, she only likes being around me when we are having fun. W tells me how horrible of a person I am and how it's ridiculous that I think D trusts me. I validate with I hear you, but I don't agree with you for most of it. We have about 10 minutes of actual productive talk where she opens up about her fears in all this, but we end up back in spew land. She says there is no way a judge will grant 50/50 and I'm only hurting myself by refusing to negotiate away from that.

W brings up 2 weeks ago when she says I broke a promise to D about taking her to school. I let her go for a bit,but she keeps coming back to it. (This is the promise W made to D on my behalf, unbeknownst to me). W says D told her I made a BS apology to her and D doesn't trust me to live up to any promises as I so clearly broke that one with D. Problem with that is that D is the one who told me W made that promise and D told me I wasn't around when she did. W keeps beating on it and using that as the reason D would never trust me.

Finally I tell W what D told me. W tells me I'm full of [censored]. That's not what happened. I am a liar, etc. I calmly tell W I know what happened and I'm very confident in the trust between D and I.

W then pokes me about moving out. She says to me "can you at least admit that I'm the primary caregiver for our D?" She keeps asking that question. I tell her we are 50/50 parents and both take care of the needs of our D. That makes her angry, she calls me delusional, and she keeps asking that question. I continue to tell her that I do not agree with her on that.

I tell her that I am just about he most rational and honest person she could be dealing with right now. I say she has told me the MR is over and while I won't push this forward, I won't stand in the way of her doing that. She tells me to stop playing the victim, she cries more about how awful it's been for her and D having to deal with me. How she is trying to get D out of this horrible situation I have created. How D continues to ask for me to live elsewhere. How if I were reasonable I'd move out for 2 months and leave her and D here. I tell her we can get an apartment and do week on and week off until the house is sold if that's what she needs but I will not do anything less than 50/50. She then says we need to tell D. I tell her I'm unwilling to tell D until we see the co-parenting counselor and discuss with her. I ask W when her appointment is and she says they won't call her back so she doesn't have one. They came back to me asap when I booked mine. Unsure what Ws deal is there. W says there is some other reason I won't tell D right now. I tell her I'm unwilling to tell my D without a well thought plan that's been vetted by the counselor. W says D will be ecstatic so we don't need a plan. W then agrees to do it after we see co-parenting counselor.

Hammers again on the primary caretaker thing. She gets pissed. Says the conversation is over and she can't talk to me anymore. All I do is disagree with her. All I am is angry and picking fights all the time. She wants to have dinner and not think about me for the rest of the evening. She tells me I can speak to her on text if I have anything else to say to her. I try to ask a question, she gets more mad,so I just get up and leave.

W then texts me 5 minutes later with more questions around our Roth IRA and our family trust documents. It's nuts. W did try to drag me down the path of our MR being fixable and why I thought that. I'm unwilling to have that discussion anymore.

So, I'm neutral here. I didn't let her pull me down the nasty path she was going. I probably should have cut the conversation at the start but I felt like I was ok having it. I will not bed from my 50/50 split of custody bc I know that's best for my D. My W is not someone I want my D around all the time now. W is not stable enough to give D what she needs by herself. I'm a rock and I will be there for my D through this. I won't let my Ws emotions/irrational behavior de-stabilize D. I used the "I'm sorry you feel that way but I do not agree" phrase so many times that by the end my W told me to stop saying that.

Curious on thoughts? Should I have just told her to beat it at the start of the conversation? She still seems off balance. She is still telling what I believe to be lies about Ds and my relationship. I found myself worried she was recirding the convo too based on the primary caretaker question. Maybe I'm paranoid.

I'll continue to do what I believe is best for my D, rehardless of how W views it. I'm doing that bc it's the right thing to do and my D deserves the best shot at stability she can get. Going to bed, but I'm doing so with a clear conscience and at peace mind. I know I'm doing the right thing for D. W has to have some inkling that she is not. Who knows. Thanks all!
Posted By: lt0402 Re: A WW? (5) - 10/26/16 08:19 PM
Almost forgot I'm the previous post. W specifically pointed out that I am "trying to rewrite history" and become dad of the year by posting all the stuff I am about my D on facebook and by coming to all of my Ds tennis lessons now.

This is all just kind of silly at this point
Posted By: sandi2 Re: A WW? (5) - 10/27/16 04:51 AM
Okay, I guess I'll spew about spewing. smile I suppose it may be just me, but I have a problem understanding why you should validate her while she is smashing you into hamburger meat. Perhaps it depends on what you say in your validation. I understand when she is upset or worried, or even having a melt down about something else. However, when the W is wayward..............her spewing is usually a personal attack on her H........which is a side effect of her disrespectful mindset.

When I hear H's say they validated the disrespectful spewing WW in a repeated scenario........it is difficult to see change in how he addresses her bullying him again & again. For example, the meds are a trigger for your W, and it's like she was sitting on the clock while watching you. After five minutes, she couldn't resist, and she unloaded on you.......once again. This is a repeated scenario.

If she is spewing about the MR (in privacy and not in front of the children), or if it was texting........I might be able to understand it. Maybe. To tolerate the same form of bullying, especially in front of the children, is not acceptable for the H/father who is the head of that home/family. And then turn around to meekly validate the WW, (maybe in front of the children.....IDK), just doesn't seem to be a solution to stop it. But again, that's just my interpretation, and most H's don't explain the details of the validation. Most will say, "I validated her", and then the rest is left to our imaginations. smile.

In your case, It0402, you should expect it at med times. Frankly, I believe she keeps you glued to the bullseye and she looks for any & all excuses to shoot you down, and make you appear incompentent.

To me, the first time she came unglued over the way you administered OTC meds, you could have calmly told her you could see how upset she was.....yada......yada. But when this continues like clockwork, and it's more of a bushwhack instead of motherly concern....then if I were the H, I would probably speak with her privately, and I would tell her in an adult language that she was to lay off and not do it again. But let me add, in your particular situation, here, think I understand you being somewhat cautious.....if you know you are going to divorce. You have a very irrational, angry wife, who would use anything against you to get full custody of her child. I do not know how you've lived in that environment!

IMO, every woman knows how far to push her H. She will verbally test the boundary lines to what he'll tolerate from her. I think most women can tell by the tone of voice the man uses, and the look on his face.......when he's had enough and don't push it. Even my soft spoken H has his limit, I discovered. He does not yell, curse, or degrade.........and of course, he has never been physical. I can just tell when I had better lay off and shut up. It's the way he looks at me and that body language, plus his voice takes on a serious tone that lets me know I am pushing the limit. If only he had done that in our earlier years!

There is a time to say nothing and walk away. There is a time to validate. There is a time to set a boundary against bullying, and enforce it. The key is to be in tune with those times and to apply the appropriate response. With all the wives he had, it's no wonder King Solomon prayed for wisdom!
Posted By: mulesqb Re: A WW? (5) - 10/27/16 07:51 AM


She wants to talk about the custody piece and I tell her I'm
Quote:
not willing to do less than 50/50. She tells me I'm being selfish, am only thinking of myself, and she cannot go a full week without seeing my D (who's being selfish?). I hold my line there and she progressively gets nastier and drops an "f" bomb. I tell her I won't speak with her when she is talking to me like that and I leave. She screams behind me that I'm such an a-hole. I flip my laundry into the drier and she comes in the laundry room 5 minutes later. Speed about how unfair I am and how I'm putting D in a horrible place and W knows D will pick her in front of a judge. Spews a bit more then turns around and walks away.


You did great here lt...I wouldn't even acknowledge some of the BS she is throwing out. But she is clearly talking to D about you and probably bad mouthing you which is not what a good mother would do. She should be shielding her from the situation, not involving her and not trying to get her aligned with her...just terrible..

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in turn, I go to her and tell her that I've given this situation a ton of thought and the best thing for our D is a 50/50 split. I'm happy to take full custody and W can do the 2hrs and evening visits and every other weekend side of things if she would like (what she thinks I should do).


Again, great job..

Quote:

W starts crying about the week on week off and how she cannot go for a week without seeing D. W tells me how D doesn't trust me, she only likes being around me when we are having fun. W tells me how horrible of a person I am and how it's ridiculous that I think D trusts me. I validate with I hear you, but I don't agree with you for most of it. We have about 10 minutes of actual productive talk where she opens up about her fears in all this, but we end up back in spew land. She says there is no way a judge will grant 50/50 and I'm only hurting myself by refusing to negotiate away from that.


DO NOT VALIDATE...repeat...DO NOT VALIDATE..why would you? Do you really agree with her that you're a horrible person that your D can't trust...absolutely not...how about.."it's unfortunate that you feel this way. Going forward I certainly do not need you to manage my relationship with our D. And I would appreciate you not discussing my R with her as it's not helpful during this very difficult time for her."

And regarding the 50/50 discussion. She doesn't know what she is talking about so I would end the conversation and not give her the time of day over it.

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W brings up 2 weeks ago when she says I broke a promise to D about taking her to school. I let her go for a bit,but she keeps coming back to it. (This is the promise W made to D on my behalf, unbeknownst to me). W says D told her I made a BS apology to her and D doesn't trust me to live up to any promises as I so clearly broke that one with D. Problem with that is that D is the one who told me W made that promise and D told me I wasn't around when she did. W keeps beating on it and using that as the reason D would never trust me.


Stop engaging in these conversations...they are not helpful in any way. Put an end to them. "Sorry you feel that way, but I don't agree" and then walk away.


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Finally I tell W what D told me. W tells me I'm full of [censored]. That's not what happened. I am a liar, etc. I calmly tell W I know what happened and I'm very confident in the trust between D and I.


Again lt, you really need to stop engaging in these conversations.

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W then pokes me about moving out. She says to me "can you at least admit that I'm the primary caregiver for our D?" She keeps asking that question. I tell her we are 50/50 parents and both take care of the needs of our D. That makes her angry, she calls me delusional, and she keeps asking that question. I continue to tell her that I do not agree with her on that.


Sorry you feel that way. Then leave. Let her spew. Not your problem. This is the damage that she has caused. Let her sit in it by herself.

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I tell her that I am just about he most rational and honest person she could be dealing with right now. I say she has told me the MR is over and while I won't push this forward, I won't stand in the way of her doing that. She tells me to stop playing the victim, she cries more about how awful it's been for her and D having to deal with me. How she is trying to get D out of this horrible situation I have created. How D continues to ask for me to live elsewhere. How if I were reasonable I'd move out for 2 months and leave her and D here. I tell her we can get an apartment and do week on and week off until the house is sold if that's what she needs but I will not do anything less than 50/50. She then says we need to tell D. I tell her I'm unwilling to tell D until we see the co-parenting counselor and discuss with her. I ask W when her appointment is and she says they won't call her back so she doesn't have one. They came back to me asap when I booked mine. Unsure what Ws deal is there. W says there is some other reason I won't tell D right now. I tell her I'm unwilling to tell my D without a well thought plan that's been vetted by the counselor. W says D will be ecstatic so we don't need a plan. W then agrees to do it after we see co-parenting counselor.


Rinse, lather, wash..repeat. Stop engaging. She's projecting. Stop giving her an audience.

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Hammers again on the primary caretaker thing. She gets pissed. Says the conversation is over and she can't talk to me anymore. All I do is disagree with her. All I am is angry and picking fights all the time. She wants to have dinner and not think about me for the rest of the evening. She tells me I can speak to her on text if I have anything else to say to her. I try to ask a question, she gets more mad,so I just get up and leave.


See above..

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W then texts me 5 minutes later with more questions around our Roth IRA and our family trust documents. It's nuts. W did try to drag me down the path of our MR being fixable and why I thought that. I'm unwilling to have that discussion anymore.

So, I'm neutral here. I didn't let her pull me down the nasty path she was going. I probably should have cut the conversation at the start but I felt like I was ok having it. I will not bed from my 50/50 split of custody bc I know that's best for my D. My W is not someone I want my D around all the time now. W is not stable enough to give D what she needs by herself. I'm a rock and I will be there for my D through this. I won't let my Ws emotions/irrational behavior de-stabilize D. I used the "I'm sorry you feel that way but I do not agree" phrase so many times that by the end my W told me to stop saying that.


You are just having way too many conversations with her. That's the biggest issue here.

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Curious on thoughts? Should I have just told her to beat it at the start of the conversation? She still seems off balance. She is still telling what I believe to be lies about Ds and my relationship. I found myself worried she was recirding the convo too based on the primary caretaker question. Maybe I'm paranoid.


Yes, you should put an end to it. Unfortunately this will become a business transaction if it moves to a D. You need to keep your thoughts to yourself and be mysterious. Let it drive her crazy. This is what she has caused. This is about you changing and becoming a leading man. Be above her. Less words., more action. More detaching. More Strength and Honor.

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I'll continue to do what I believe is best for my D, rehardless of how W views it. I'm doing that bc it's the right thing to do and my D deserves the best shot at stability she can get. Going to bed, but I'm doing so with a clear conscience and at peace mind. I know I'm doing the right thing for D. W has to have some inkling that she is not. Who knows. Thanks all!


Stop trying to read her mind. That doesn't matter.

The takewaway here: Stop validating any negativity towards you. Let her own that.

Stop engaging in so much R talk with her.

Don't let her manage your R with D.

A loving parent wouldn't include her D in R conversation. Your D needs to be protected from that or put in therapy/counseling immediately. It is damaging to her. TRUST me on that.

Any custody talk is left to Ls.

You can handle this lt.

Strength and Honor.

Mules



[/quote]
Posted By: JRuss Re: A WW? (5) - 10/27/16 08:08 AM
lt, man, I really feel for you having to deal with all of this. Mules is right -- you can definitely handle this -- but it must be exhausting. Hang in there!
Posted By: ForGump Re: A WW? (5) - 10/27/16 11:21 PM
LT, your W sounds unhinged. Not a lot you can do when she's not in her right mind.

Don't settle for anything less than 50-50. If your W can't go a week w/o seeing her D, maybe you can agree to do the 2-2-3?

Your W manipulating your D about the divorce (e.g., "she'd be happy if you moved out") is just not right. I'd ask your L if there is any recourse/repercussions for that kind of behavior.

Sounds really tough ...
Posted By: lt0402 Re: A WW? (5) - 10/29/16 05:58 PM
Sandi, always feel free to spew about spewing around here! It's my nemesis and I could use the support against it!

So, it's strange. In these extended conversations I find if I validate I'll eventually get to tidbits of useful information from my W. When I say validating, it's pretty much nodding, listening, repeating some of the relevant things, and asking questions sparingly. When it's uncontrolled spew about me I either warn her that I won't hang around for it, or I leave and say we can discuss when she's more controlled. That one really gets her riled up, but it does calm her down typically and she becomes more docile. I'm not great at staying out of the fray, i.e. Me coming back into the conversation with her, but I think I'm building some skills that will be useful. Hell, if I can validate in these conditions, I figure it's got to be a breeze in the years to come. I even had a female colleague tell me how much she appreciated me listening to her and allowing her to vent during my trip. That's a first for me.

I suspected, after the fact, that my W was waiting to pounce on me for not doing he meds on time. She came down and made a big show of slamming cups and drawers and stuff. Ignored it, but unsure if I should have addressed it or not. My W says my D doesn't trust me as her parent. I don't believe that, but if there's any truth to it then these little W freak outs are one of the larger causes. Still trying to figure out the best way to address it. It's teenager behavior, and I'd think that typically that behavior would be ignored. Open to thoughts.

My W has stopped the disrespect, for the most part, in front of my D. Every now and then there's a comment dropped by W that's backhanded, but nothing like the start of this thing. The most recent one was my D saying to my W that they should "pants" me (Wierd sense of humor in my house, think it was on some tv show). W said "nobody would want to see that". I let it go, but compared to the start of this where she would tell D "Daddy is an idiot" in a "joking" way, it's much more tame.

I think you are spot on that I'm in her crosshairs at all times. One if her biggest complaints was that I couldn't take care of my D. I've come to realize that, to her, meant I couldn't follow the meticulous, and somewhat unnecessary routine she had formulated. I know from recent experience that I'm more than capable of caring for D and that we have a lot more fun and less stress without that routine. I'm coming to believe that W hits me so hard on "not being able to follow the routine" bc it helps her keep me "incompetent" in her brain and continue her stance on S. I'm also coming to realize that the routine does not benefit my D. It only benefits W in her alleviation of her own anxiety, stemming from her anger and OCD issues. D and I have been living with routines for years, solely to placate W not having to address and work through her issues. Sad it took me this long to realize it.

At this point, I'm convinced we are going to divorce. I'd like to work this out, but there's no chance we can without my W doing a major overhaul of herself. I still have work to do on me, but at least I'm taking steps forward. I think W has a fear of seeing and addressing her own issues, whatever they may be. I think that dooms any hope for R at this point.

The only thing, throughout all of this that's changed my Ws behavior was when we had our blowup after she went to see OM the second time. I've never raised my voice at my W and I think the amount of anger in me surprised her. For a week after that she was a different person. Well kept, docile, and soft spoken to me. But I can't live my life in anger like that. That's not me and I'd be miserable. I shouldn't have to be that. I will always take pride in the fact that, even in that heated 30 minutes, I've never called my W any of the horrible things she's called me. I've never been degrading or insulting towards my W. Again, that's not me and I refuse to stoop to her level there. I'm realizing there are times to be firm and stand up for D and I. I'm getting better at picking those moments, but I still need work. I'll continue to build upon that going forward. You are spot on about there being times for each different approach. I'm still not great at that, but I'm getting there!

Mules, I'm highly concerned that W is influencing D in regards to me. Even if it's not outright vocal manipulation, I believe my Ws overreactions are having an impact on how D views me. I'm thinking you may be right in my telling her to please stop managing my relationship with my D. At this point I have no need for her help in building or maintaining that relationship. Thank you for highlighting this, bc I hadn't realized I still was viewing W as an ally on that. I don't think W deserves to be involved there based on recent actions, unfortunately.

On the part about me confronting W about her making promises on my behalf, I knew it was a mistake when I did it. It was bouncing around in my brain for a while during the conversation bc W brought it up multiple times. Unsure why I finally put it out there bc I really didn't want to and I knew it would do nothing to help. Only thing I can chalk it up to is me not managing my end of the dialogue fully and bad judgement. A learning moment, and a realization that I need to be fully engaged in controlling my reactions with my W at all times. I regretted it as soon as it left my mouth....ughhh...

Mules, your takeaways are precisely what I need. I don't believe there's anything else to gain from detailed discussion with her. The tidbits I get are small windows into her thinking, but I wonder if having those is worth the pain to get them. Very convinced that D is unavoidable at this point. If that's the case then it doesn'tmatter.

What does matter is protecting my D. Others have suggested counseling for my D. W is adamantly against it. I've pushed but haven't forced the issue. W meets with co-parent counselor this week. Our combined session will follow that. I'll lever that to plan for us telling our D and for getting W to agree to put D in counseling. I want W to at worst be neutral about it bc I worry the counseling won't help if W pushes against it.

Strength and honor are my goal mules. Honor to me is standing for what is right and making the right decisions, for the right reasons, regardless of the cost with my W.

JR, appreciate your thoughts and support brother! It's very tiring, but my D is my strength and what keeps me grinding. I need to show her a strong, yet compassionate person. I'm not there yet, but I'm getting there.

FG, I'm not sure if she'll ever be better. She really has work to do on herself if she ever wants to be at peace. It's sad, bc I've never wanted her to feel this way and I am unable to fix it for her. Her journey. Unfortunately, my D and I are forced to ride shotgun for a bit down the bumpy part of her path.

I offered that 2-2-3 is an option and she told me there's 0% chance she'd uproot D during the school week. I then offered for D to be with me during the week and W could do what she was proposing I'd do. She was livid at that thought. Again, I think she eliminates everything that doesn't suit her mind of the future. Very concerned how the custody piece shakes out with W unwilling to budge.

It's tough, but not any tougher than everyone else around here's situations. We all just have slight nuances of similar things. We all suffer, but I couldn't think of better people than all of you to be in the company of during this. Without y'all I don't know that I'd of had the strength to be this balanced through everything.

Know that I appreciate each and everyone of you! Now back to the grind!
Posted By: CT1118 Re: A WW? (5) - 10/30/16 03:44 PM
It0402 - how are you brother. Big drawback to being absent from here for a bit is the time it takes to catch up on friends, even then, tough to hit them all. Was just reading this WW5 thread. Man this was great:

Originally Posted By: lt0402

One of the best things to come out of all of this though is my booming R with my D. I think we both make each other so much happier now. My ability to communicate with her is leaps and bounds above where it was before. Seeing how happy my D is every day gives me hope that all will be good in the future.


Virtual hug, not even a bro-hug but a real one and a salute in your direction. Awesome.

Originally Posted By: lt0402

It's tough, but not any tougher than everyone else around here's situations. We all just have slight nuances of similar things. We all suffer, but I couldn't think of better people than all of you to be in the company of during this. Without y'all I don't know that I'd of had the strength to be this balanced through everything.


If there were a physical door to the newcomer forum, this should hang on a plaque over top of it.

I am not here to advice, I see you in good hands. Just wanted to have your back for the moment and let you hear the applause.
Posted By: ForGump Re: A WW? (5) - 10/30/16 08:45 PM
Originally Posted By: lt0402
I think she eliminates everything that doesn't suit her mind of the future. Very concerned how the custody piece shakes out with W unwilling to budge.


It looks like you & your W simply don't agree on the basics, so it will have to be decided by the court. I hope you have a good L and you've been consulting her/him about this, so that you are ready to make a strong case for a 50-50 custody.

I'm sorry to hear what you're going through.
Posted By: mulesqb Re: A WW? (5) - 10/31/16 11:45 AM

Quote:
Mules, I'm highly concerned that W is influencing D in regards to me. Even if it's not outright vocal manipulation, I believe my Ws overreactions are having an impact on how D views me. I'm thinking you may be right in my telling her to please stop managing my relationship with my D. At this point I have no need for her help in building or maintaining that relationship. Thank you for highlighting this, bc I hadn't realized I still was viewing W as an ally on that. I don't think W deserves to be involved there based on recent actions, unfortunately.

On the part about me confronting W about her making promises on my behalf, I knew it was a mistake when I did it. It was bouncing around in my brain for a while during the conversation bc W brought it up multiple times. Unsure why I finally put it out there bc I really didn't want to and I knew it would do nothing to help. Only thing I can chalk it up to is me not managing my end of the dialogue fully and bad judgement. A learning moment, and a realization that I need to be fully engaged in controlling my reactions with my W at all times. I regretted it as soon as it left my mouth....ughhh...

Mules, your takeaways are precisely what I need. I don't believe there's anything else to gain from detailed discussion with her. The tidbits I get are small windows into her thinking, but I wonder if having those is worth the pain to get them. Very convinced that D is unavoidable at this point. If that's the case then it doesn'tmatter.

What does matter is protecting my D. Others have suggested counseling for my D. W is adamantly against it. I've pushed but haven't forced the issue. W meets with co-parent counselor this week. Our combined session will follow that. I'll lever that to plan for us telling our D and for getting W to agree to put D in counseling. I want W to at worst be neutral about it bc I worry the counseling won't help if W pushes against it.

Strength and honor are my goal mules. Honor to me is standing for what is right and making the right decisions, for the right reasons, regardless of the cost with my W.


Hi lt,

Please don't beat yourself up over these things. I think you are a good man and doing a great job. I always felt the hardest part of DBing was being the moment and know the right DB response. I was terrible at it. It's much easier on this side reading about your interactions and then trying to help.

The way I improved was to try and anticipate situations and how I would respond. That was far a long in the process for me and probably way too late.

I know you feel like this going the D route. But honestly, I think the biggest thing that needs to happen is true separation for you guys. You're just around each other too much, you interact too much and engage too much.

I am concerned about your W's interactions with your D. That is not a sound woman. She should not be spewing about you in front of her. She should be shielding your D from whatever she can. That is parenting 101. And that is where I can definitely speak from experience as my fiancee has 3 boys and I have 3 boys.We all live together. Her boys were completely shielded from her sitch and mine were not. There is a HUGE difference in their self confidence, self worth, anxiety. Kids shouldn't be drawn into a Divorce/Sep. I hate when I hear people say they are resilient. That is the biggest BS I have ever heard. I truly think they internalize their feelings. And when they finally come to terms with their feelings, it is not pretty. Your W is causing serious damage to your D but is too selfish to care. I know some here have recommended therapy for your D and i can't agree more. I took one of my boys to therapy every week for 6 years. Things came out of him that I could have never imagined.

I love what you said about Strength and Honor. Use it to your advantage. I used to whisper those words to myself all the time. It helped me get through some incredible situations.

And as always, keep being yourself. And keep improving yourself. Do it for you and do it for your D.

You can handle this lt. But you need to start making some changes. I hope you agree.

Strength and Honor.

Mules
Posted By: CT1118 Re: A WW? (5) - 10/31/16 05:53 PM

Originally Posted By: mulesqb

I always felt the hardest part of DBing was being the moment and know the right DB response. I was terrible at it. It's much easier on this side reading about your interactions and then trying to help.

The way I improved was to try and anticipate situations and how I would respond. That was far a long in the process for me and probably way too late.


Mules/It: If I may (and I may not, as I am not resolved nor complete in my sitch) I had a brief Kubrick fascination in my life, I once read that every detail in his movies was on purpose, everything - clothes, paint, of course dialog...it all had purpose. When I began reading DB and the DB forum, the above made a whole lot of sense, found in questions like "what is your purpose", "what was your goal", or the obligatory "what you could have said...."?

To get to the point, being in the moment of DB is tough and I was not expert (still not), but anticipation (different from mind reading, I will say) seemed pretty crucial. I would use my journal to write possible answers I may have to choose from and re-read them. And then re-read them. And then...re-read them. I pulled it off successfully a few times and it went better than flying my by the seat of my very emotional pants. On the surface, this may sound dishonest, but I don't think so. As the artist wishes to present an honest piece, is it not logical to rehearse a part? This was not fake to me, because I was rehearsing possible outcomes for the truth I did believe in.

Anyway, this was a post about self tactics and not directly related to your sitch It0402, but if "it made a difference to that one" as the starfish story goes...
Posted By: lt0402 Re: A WW? (5) - 11/04/16 07:36 PM
Ok all, been away from here for the week. I find myself reinvigorated in my work and have been finally able to focus on things there more fully. I haven't lost sight of time with my D or working on myself, but am finding what I think is a healthier balance between work and my situation. Not a bad thing, but I've got to be sure that I don't swing back to where work consumes me like before all this was happening. As I look back on those days, I think I may have been using work as an escape from the issues w/ my W that led up to our S. On that note, some responses and then quick journaling. I really need to get caught back up w/ everyone and see where everyone is.

CT, you sir, along w/ many others here have my full respect and your virtual hugs mean a lot to me brother! Thank you as always, for your support and kind words!

FG, you hit the nail on the head in regards to my concerns for the immediate future. My W is inflexible in her custody views and inflexibility only lasts until something breaks. My L has been very helpful to frame things and I think she is positioning us correctly to address my Ws Ls. It is not a battle I am eager to fight, but it is one that is worth fighting as I believe it's detrimental to my Ds development as a woman to be full time w/ my W. I've dug deep to make sure I'm viewing that as unbiased as possible and I honestly believe that is true. I will continue to make the right decisions for the right reasons and follow through with them. Strength and honor as mules so aptly puts it.

With that said, having my L actively engaged relatively early in this process has been amazing in regards to giving me clarity and stability. You all were right that it was the correct decision. Knowing the facts about how this thing works, and not buying into Ws bullying and misconstruing of the process has helped a lot.

Mules, not beating myself up over stuff like I used to. I'm at a point now where I know I'm going to make mistakes and I'm ok w/ that. That said, I like the thought of working through potential scenarios and practicing a response. I took that advice and have been working on it throughout the week while commuting to and from work. I was doing this a little before, but am really trying to expand it now.

Unfortunately, I do think the D route is the final path for this. My W is too anxiety driven and is unwilling to address those issues. It's impossible for me to see a way for us to be together so long as that's the case. Not just bc she doesn't want it, but also bc I'm unwilling to tolerate the atmosphere and exchanges created bc of her anxiety and my responses to it. I deserve better than that and so does my D.

I'd love to be with my W again. I'd love for our family to be back together. I'd love to put every ounce of effort I have into saving our MR, like I feel I've done the past few months, but I think it all fails w/o addressing those anxiety issues. Don't get me wrong, I will not stop trying as hard as I can to be a better man and father. I just am realizing that my changes alone will not be enough to save my MR. My W also needs to do a lot of heavy lifting and unfortunately I don't know that she'll ever be eager to address that. [censored], but I'm coming to grips with that now.

I appreciate your thoughts around the welfare of my D. I fear for my Ds stability, the same as you did/do with your Ss. I see the anxiety in my D at times and it kills me. I'm working hard to make a less structured (sounds crazy to say) environment for my D and break down some of the rigidity my W has created. Effectively allow her to be looser and more free from concerns about doing things the "wrong" way. This is leading to more anxiety from my W, but again, I believe it's the right decision for the right reason. My D seems to be happier w/o fear of what my Ws response will be. My W and I have our co-parenting session next week and I'm going to work on getting her to agree to put our D with and IC during that.

I agree that I need to start making some changes. I feel like I'm at a point now that the situation no longer overwhelms me. I've come to terms with it and am ready to go wherever it takes me. On a scale of detachment I currently lean closer to detached than I have at any point in the past. I realize that will swing back and forth, but the swings are no longer nearly as violent as they used to be. As for changes, I'm open to suggestions you all may see, but I'm focused on continuing to build my R w/ my D, re-focusing on my career after the past few months, continuing my grind at the gym, and building my skills at GAL and meeting new people. That last one is where I've been slacking recently, but I've got some things going on that will help there.

I just finished running a charity drive for the past 1.5 months for our team of about 100 folks at work. The third year I've done it and it was fairly successful in raising a large sum of money for a good cause. Everyone also had a great time doing it and on a selfish note it helped take my mind off things and helped make me feel like I was doing something good. Now we're kickstarting another one and I'm leading 35 guys at work in a Movember (no shave November) team for this month. Already starting to see the beard kick in and we'll have a multitude of happy hours and other random guy events throughout the month. a couple months ago I told myself I wasn't going to do the movember thing again this year. Thought about it a lot and realized it was bc I was worried what my W would think (she doesn't like it when I have facial hair). I also realized that I enjoyed it last year and I wouldn't let concern over my Ws feelings keep me from doing something I enjoyed. So bearded LT it is for the month of November and maybe December! It's amazing how much such small things can lift your spirits and push you forward!

CT, great advice and I'm starting to peel through situations in my brain to anticipate and practice. So many iterations, but I agree that it puts you in a better spot to respond, as opposed to flying by the seat of your pants. No different than other things in life. There is no substitute for practice in regards to being prepared.

Some quick journaling for an update:

A lot of fun with my D this week. Halloween was a blast, though my W took D out for 1.5hrs trick or treating w/ 2 other moms and 6 other girls. It's ok though, bc I got home early enough to see D in her costume and spend some time with her before they went out. I also got to spend a bunch of time with her after trick or treating before bed. A bit disappointed in W bc D and I usually would do at least double the time W did w/ her on Halloween. D and I always do costumes that complement each other. This year D was a ghostbuster so I dressed up like slimer from the movies. Last year she was indominus rex and I was the guy that got chased the whole movie. the year before that she was jaws and I was captain quint. It's a fun little tradition we have and I look forward to what she wants to do next year!

W sent me some texts this week about Christmas presents for D and we went back and forth planning that. Felt good to work on something w/ her again, but it didn't translate to how she acted at home. no surprise there.

D was home sick for tues/wed/thurs so I spent some time chatting w/ her via text during the day. she sent me some pictures she drew on her ipad which were awesome and I caught some pokemon as they showed up around the office and kept her in the loop. It was fun getting to talk to her during the day since that usually doesn't happen.

on the L front, I got an email from my Ls today w/ the final, barring a few tweaks, S agreement we put together. They also attached the S agreement my Ws Ls just sent over to them, but my W has not mentioned to me.

The gist of my Ws agreement is that I see my D every other weekend and that's it. We both have joint legal custody, but W has primary physical custody. I pay spousal support into perpetuity. W gets a slug of the existing assets. Ask for the world I guess. Anyways, it's been delivered to my Ls by her and I guess opens up negotiations. We have our own in pocket so I'm waiting to discuss w/ my Ls how to proceed now.

It was surreal reading through it. Almost like all my work to provide stability for my family was being unraveled in one simple document. A decent amount of typos, misspellings, and bad word choices too. Almost added insult to injury.

That said, it didn't weigh on me emotionally. I'm not sure how to describe the feeling. I feel prepared to address it though and I think that's giving me some comfort. I'll be curious to see if my W brings it up to me this weekend. who knows.

D and I go out tomorrow to a museum complex near here for some fun and pokemon hunting. That's after I do my run in the morning, which I haven't done since Monday bc of work. I'm really looking forward to both of those as I need them right now to loosen up and relax.

Will catch up with everyone else and get back to being active around here. I feel horrible for not having been here for ya'll this week, I just needed a bit of time away. I do appreciate everything from everybody on here!
Posted By: lt0402 Re: A WW? (5) - 11/06/16 01:25 PM
Well, the oddness continues. W has started her loop of going to bed at 3-4am again. Started on Monday evening last week. She had been fairly consistent at going to bed at 12 before that. Wakes me up when she gets in bed, so leads to less sleep for me.

W gets mad fri evening bc she says I'm distracting my D from her bedtime routine. I always joke with D while she brushes her teeth but W felt the need to latch onto it on Friday. W tells me I need to stop aleways distracting D. I tell her I don't believe it's an issue and it's not too dissimilar to how her and D joke around at bed. Later I tuck in D and get ready for bed and I've got an apologetic text from W where she says she's sorry and asks if I can just try not to distract her too much.

Didn't get too much sleep Friday evening as the S agreement was swirling in my brain and W hopping in bed at 3 woke me up when I did get to sleep. D and I got to the museum for 4 hours and have a blast. Come home and W takes D to a bday party. I go run and then sit down to watch my college team play. I turn on most of the lights and open the blinds. (W doesn't like it when all the lights are on for some reason, but it makes it less clautrophobic). An hour later W and D come home. W immediately comes into the family room and shuts the blinds pointedly. I ask her why she shut the blinds. She says it's getting dark and everyone in the neighborhood can see into our house (they face our backyard so unsure how that works) and I shouldn't care. Then she heads upstairs. I open the blinds again (seems so stupid, but necessary) and tell her when she comes back down that I've opened them bc it makes things less claustrophobic and I'll shut them when D and W come into the family room. She slams some stuff around in the kitchen then stomps into the family room.

She tells me that she doesn't feel comfortable with the blinds open and I need to respect that. I tell her I hear her but if she wants to do something like that she needs to ask me first. She tells me I need to stop being so abrasive with her. I need to stop being so ridiculous and stop being such an ahole. I am fighting her on everything and am going out of my way to disagree about everything. I'm making all of this more difficult.

W then asks me if I want to stay in this situation or not. She says if I do and we are going to live together for years then I need to be nicer to her. I tell her I hear what's she's saying but I don't understand what she means. She asks, are you effing stupid. She says do you want to stay married or get divorced. I tell her I still do not want to divorce but but we can't live in a marriage that is e way it is now. She then says "you've won. I'm stuck. I get how much this will hurt our D. Call the co-parenting counselor and cancel it. Call up the previous MC and setup an appointment." I tell her no one has won in this situation. She says our D has won. She asks again if I want to stay married or divorced. I tell her the same back. She asks me to think about it and come back with an answer.

She then repeats how uncomfortable the blinds being open makes her. She says I need to respect that. I tell her I hear how it makes her uncomfortable but I need her to ask me before doing stuff that affects me like that going forward. She then makes a big show of asking if it's ok to close the blinds, I say yes and thank you for asking and she stomps off.

No real interaction with W since that. D and I went out hiking and Pokémon hunting all morning today and W has taken D and friends to a movie.

So.....horribly confused at the moment. Debating how to approach this. Got the S agreement from her last Friday. Now she has this "martyr" mentality and still harbors a lot of the same anger and resentment, so far as I can tell. She hasn't gotten any help on her anxiety issues. Additionally, I saw on our browser history that she'd gotten notification in her email of a message from OM (not sure what medium they used and don't really care) on 10/14 after she told me she would not speak/visit him while we were still married late August.

I believe this is her waffling like in late August and would not be surprised for her to flip the other way shortly. I'm not willing to pursue being M to her unless she gets her anxiety straightened out. She may be realizing how hard it is to find a job that fits with her view of time with D and cash flow needed. Maybe she's stalling. That's currently where my brain is but I'm tired of playing these games. I do feel myself warming up to her after that though. Think that's ok, so long as I don't let her run me over. I just don't see this as being anything sincere.

Well, enough rambling. Parent teacher conference with W tomorrow morning. Means I can get up and hang out with my D before school. Look fwd to that.
Posted By: ForGump Re: A WW? (5) - 11/06/16 11:47 PM
This is crazy! ... Like I wrote earlier, she sounds unhinged. But maybe that's good. People with serious mental health problems often need to hit rock bottom before they will consider getting help. Maybe this is her rock bottom, and she is, reluctantly, willing to get some help.

Or she may just flip flop again.

I think I would see if you can meet with her when she's in a calm state of mind, somewhere new, somewhere quiet and calming -- somewhere other than home. And just see if you two can just converse reasonably, and see if she can reiterate/articulate better what she's thinking. You would just mainly listen. I'd probably do that before taking her up on her offer to go see an MC.

It seems to me that the real root of the problem is your W's mental health, and the ideal situation is one where your W gets help for herself first, before tackling your marriage. But I'm guessing your W isn't willing to do that at this point. In that case, I've been advised by counselors that it's OK to get that person into MC, and if the MC is any good, the MC will gently guide that person into individual counseling.

I'd ask your IC for some advice. I don't know how much regular DB techniques apply when your spouse is not in good mental health.

Like JRuss posted, I'm watching your hurricane on TV, while in the eye of my own hurricane.
Posted By: hawker Re: A WW? (5) - 11/07/16 10:30 AM
Wow Lt... I don't know how you do it...she seems wacky...she sounds like she goes back and forth on what she wants but I am glad that you are standing up for yourself and doing what you want with your D. Yes, I can see where you would be getting tired of the game playing, it is emotionally draining. How did parent/teacher conferences go?
Posted By: Surfer Re: A WW? (5) - 11/07/16 01:09 PM
LT

Thanks for dropping by earlier.

Sen exactly here. She is lost due to having had an OM. They can't love two. She has fcuked herself up through her own choices. Stay and be more detached. Become Freud mate. You are. You longer her H your are her shrink. Observe and detach and do that amazing job for your D.

We have had good times recently but she is flip flopping again. Have you read 5 love languages. Very interesting.

Surfer.
Posted By: Surfer Re: A WW? (5) - 11/07/16 01:10 PM
Sorry - auto correct city LOL.

Take care mate.

Surfer.
Posted By: lt0402 Re: A WW? (5) - 11/07/16 05:36 PM
New thread:

A WW? (6)
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