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Posted By: NYGal NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 09/02/16 08:39 AM
It's harder than I thought to regain trust and let go of the power the ow has over my thoughts, but I'm working on it. I probably spend more time thinking of her than W does. For example, I was drifting off to sleep and had this urge to flip the darn mattress over then and there! But I didn't. I will.

Any advice from others on how to quit thinking about the ow, especially when I see her at work way too much? And especially since she's going to be promoted to the head of her department and it will be a big announcement. Sigh.
Posted By: NYGal Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 09/02/16 08:40 AM
Old thread: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2701528&#Post2701528
Posted By: EDF Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 09/02/16 09:38 AM
I understand the struggle. Even on the good days I sometimes find myself having negative thoughts and have to make a conscious effort to redirect them.

I have a mental image I use of me from one of my GAL activities (mud run) without spouse. If I find myself picturing W with OM, or remembering one of the emails they exchanged, or wondering if there have been any secret contacts, I switch to that mental image of me being awesome. Focus on remembering that day and that moment, and how it felt. Picturing the weather, and the post-race cheeseburger. Think about the future fun runs I am already looking forward to, etc.

It has been effective for me, and helps reinforce to myself that even if after all this we still don't make it... I will be ok, and it will be her loss.

OW isn't a threat to you. You're a strong lady and will make it through whatever happens, so don't give her power over you.
Posted By: NYGal Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 09/02/16 09:48 AM
Thanks, EDF. And I just found a link in my email about how a power stance not only makes us look stronger and more competent to others, it also can actually change the way we feel about ourselves.

It's a Ted Talk by Amy Cuddy. I think we could all benefit from a self-confidence boost!

https://www.ted.com/talks/amy_cuddy_your_body_language_shapes_who_you_are?language=en#t-958051
Posted By: hawker Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 09/02/16 09:55 AM
I watched this during the summer...its great!!
Posted By: NYGal Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 09/13/16 01:08 PM
I've come to the point where I dread Mondays. I don't think about ow much over the weekend, but during the work week she could be lurking anywhere. This week they will probably announce that she got the big HR top job. And I just read a draft of the new policies on ethics and integrity. What a joke. I'm supposed to let someone know if I suspect that another employee has been guilty of unethical or illegal behavior, but how does a lowly admin challenge the head of HR who can't keep her mouth shut about why people are fired? I guess I just have to wait for her karma to bite her in the butt. Here karma, here karma!

Meanwhile, W attended the meeting she has every other week with ow (and several others). She says she didn't sit or talk with her THIS week. Well, I guess that's progress.
Posted By: Coly23 Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 09/13/16 01:18 PM
I feel for you NYGal, having ow (small letters, insignificant!) working in the same company and in a position of trust and responsibility. Makes me sick!

But you know your W chose to stay with you, remember that. She has nothing on you!
Posted By: hawker Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 09/13/16 02:51 PM
It does stink that they work together...it seems like that has happened to a lot of people on here, myself included. It would be hard to stay focused while at work knowing she is lurking around. I think as long as your W is telling you what happens in the meetings, etc that is good that she is open and honest with you! You can find out anyhow but it is good that she is telling you! And Coly is right, your W chose you not Gerbil....haha
Posted By: cheesyt Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 09/13/16 08:03 PM
Originally Posted By: Coly23
But you know your W chose to stay with you, remember that. She has nothing on you!


I know it's easy for us to say it because we aren't in your shoes but I second what Coly said. Don't forget she left OW to come back to her W, you!!!!! That's a big deal!

Hang in there NYGal!!!
Posted By: NYGal Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 09/16/16 04:06 PM
Well ow just got named to the top HR post here. I guess it's ok to sleep with 5 employees, one, maybe two of them affairs, one a triangle with another employee (i.e. me, the LBS), tell everyone why your boss got fired. And still get the top job. Damn it all to hell. Let's see that get censored.
Posted By: hawker Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 09/19/16 03:26 PM
Well all I can say is YUCK...haha...she will get hers someday!!!
Posted By: NYGal Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 10/15/16 09:26 AM
Update: W continues going to the twice a month meetings (large meetings) that ow also attends. Yesterday, after going over our agreement ("I promise not to engage with ow") in the morning before she headed off to the meeting, she ended up walking ow to her car after the meeting. It ended at 9:30. I didn't get the "I'll text you after the meeting" text until almost 10. A friend told me they were chatting before the meeting, too. I bluffed and pretended I knew about the stroll to the car, until she admitted it. The story kept changing. I'm sure many of you reading this know the kick to the gut feeling when you know your spouse is lying again.

I lost it. She swears it was nothing and i'm making a big deal over nothing. She swears she loves me and only me and wants a future with me and not ow. But everything starts with opening a door just a little bit, doesn't it? Was this temp checking to see if ow might want her back? Or to se if W wants her back? Why would she do this, at work, where any of my friends could see her, and report back to me? Why would she be so willing to hurt me? Her answer: "IDK".

I am worried about my response. I went back to that very dark place of low/no self-esteem. Of paranoia. I googled PTSD after an affair and I have most of the symptoms. I don't sleep, I'm pale, I easily fly off the handle, I am triggered by all sorts of things, I am insecure, I feel ugly and like a loser, I can't concentrate, I can barely hold my head up because I feel so defeated. Today she went off golfing with her friends and said she looks forward to seeing me when she gets back.

Am I making too much out of this? What am I supposed to do when they see each other in meetings at least twice a month? Was this opening the door up again? Will the welcome mat go out next and an invitation to come on in? I'm very very VERY afraid that she'll slide down into that rabbit, no RAT, hole again.
Posted By: hawker Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 10/15/16 09:58 AM
I can see why this would bother you and trigger all of your memories of what has happened in the past. I would want some vets to comment on your situation but I wanted to let you know that you are a great person and you are beautiful and you are a winner!!!!!!!
Posted By: Painter Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 10/15/16 02:25 PM
NYGal, I think your concerns are valid. I would have been very upset.

Are you still seeing the MC? I would bring this up in the next session.
Posted By: hawker Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 10/17/16 07:22 AM
How was the rest of your weekend?
Posted By: MoveFrwd Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 10/17/16 07:39 AM
NYGal -

Youre signature says this: "Be patient, strong and kind but never a doormat"

Given those parameters, what is your plan? My concern for you is that your W has no fear of crossing your boundaries. Sure, youre going to get mad or 'lose it', and then hat? Time marches on, you swallow it, and you guys resume living your life.

This is what, the fourth, fifth, eighth time shes crossed that same boundary, and yet, it looks like you have no alternative besides just waving your hands around, getting upset and hoping that she will change her behavior next time.

I think if you want her to change her ways, then you need to consider what YOU will change first to get that kind of response. Frankly, repeating a mantra, having a check-in text and checking up through your friend networks sounds super controlling. It has to be up to W to make her own choices. And then you need to decide what your limits are for you to be healthy.
Posted By: NYGal Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 10/28/16 09:22 PM
Today I had a bad feeling and so I checked W's email. Keep in mind that we have this agreement that she will not write, call, text, trip over or send OR receive smoke signals from ow. Well it turns out she sent ow an email on Sunday. Some list of good wines. No comment just the list. That's what I know. What is it that I don't know? Clearly I cannot believe all the pretty words. They could be meeting on the sly every day for all I know.
So, since I usually wave my arms and get upset this time I'm hiding out at a friend's house. Turned off my location services on the phone so she can't see where I am. Haven't heard from her in 8.5 hours.
I will go home in the a.m. And am afraid at what I will hear. I have told her so many times how bad it hurts when she contacts or speaks to or trips over ow. I have screamed and yelled. Last time I said. No more screaming and yelling. I'm withdrawing. Keeping one foot out the door. So that's why I didn't go home.
But I so afraid of what will happen when I do. If it's another BD IDK what I will do.
Posted By: NYGal Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 10/28/16 09:30 PM
Oh and about that "bad feeling"? It came on me after I received a notice that she turned off Find my iPhone. I'd laugh if it didn't hurt so much. Her excuse? IDK how that happened!
Posted By: Sotto Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 10/29/16 05:53 AM
Hi NYG, I'm sorry this happened. And I would agree that turning off 'find my phone' doesn't just happen. I do think in your sitch that there has been some pretty regular pushing of boundaries and it does sound as though some kind of contact is ongoing with OW.

So, what are you going to do now??
Posted By: Vanilla Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 10/30/16 01:51 PM
Big hugs

V
Posted By: NYGal Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 10/31/16 08:56 AM
I spent the night at a friend's on Friday. By the time I came home on Saturday W was very contrite and apologetic and swore it won't happen again. I was pretty cold most of the day -- a broken heart doesn't easily smile.
Sunday was better, but we had a tiff when she criticized me for two very innocuous things I said. I'm trying to detach. GAL. But still be present in this R I want to preserve.
In the middle of the night she said something about putting my name on the house rather than me buying a condo. I was stunned and didn't say much. My wounded soul expects a catch, I guess. Nothing was said this morning. Was I dreaming? I don't think so...
Posted By: Painter Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 10/31/16 11:01 AM
NYGal, I'm glad she apologized. Seems like pulling away rather than getting in her face, worked. It still can't keep happening, though. Has this been discussed in counseling yet?

Continue to take care of yourself and your financial future. Are you GALing?
Posted By: NYGal Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 10/31/16 02:57 PM
I'm GALing a bit, yes, thanks, Painter. But not like before. I try. I'm either going to put an offer on a condo or get my name on our house... we'll see how the discussion goes tonight.
Thanks so much for checking in.
Posted By: hawker Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 10/31/16 03:11 PM
Sounds like a good idea NYGal....you have to protect yourself and your future!!
Posted By: Painter Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 10/31/16 09:55 PM
Has she pulled out of MC?
Posted By: NYGal Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 11/01/16 10:55 AM
No, Painter, we still go to MC.
And the story changed from "your name should be on the house" to "maybe when we have more stability your name should be on the house." Which comes first, the chicken or the betrayed spouse?
Posted By: MoveFrwd Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 11/01/16 11:09 AM
Originally Posted By: darknes

Given those parameters, what is your plan? My concern for you is that your W has no fear of crossing your boundaries. Sure, youre going to get mad or 'lose it', and then what? Time marches on, you swallow it, and you guys resume living your life.


My concern has not changed. Your boundaries seem so flimsy in that you say you arent willing to accept this kind of contact with OW, but then theres no real consequence to it once W crosses that line. Sure, you get mad or in this case, you left the house for a bit...but does W have any inclination that this might be a deal breaker for you? Does she have fear that YOU would be the one to walk away?

Hawker said above that you need to protect yourself. And I wholeheartedly agree. You DO need to protect yourself. But not just financially...emotionally as well.
Posted By: hawker Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 11/01/16 11:25 AM
Yes, darknes...emotionally as well!!!! It can't be easy being around that all week at work!
Posted By: Painter Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 11/01/16 12:35 PM
What does the counselor say to W about her behavior? Is it addressed? Has she explained why she does it during the sessions?

If I were you, I would go ahead with getting yourself a condo. You have to take charge of your own life and independence and not rely on her.

And put on a cool outfit and go out with friends to a game! Remember what you did that worked when you were apart?
Posted By: NYGal Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 11/01/16 02:29 PM
We talk about it in counseling. But W never really gets called out on it or has to answer... why would you do such a thing????? But when I ask her she just says it was a dumb, dumb mistake and she regrets it. I think the MC says it takes a while to get over an A... blechhh.

I'm probably going to be outbid on the condo... i was hoping mine would be the only offer but there's another one... oh well.

I am planning things without W, and accepting invitations whether she can join or not (well one for this Saturday...) She's busy now two nights every mid-week so I do things when she's not home, and sometimes when she is. I do NOT want to just wait to see her schedule then adjust mine to fit hers. And I am trying to wear those cool outfits. W does notice. I do need to work on being more the life of the party even though I'm not the life of any party... W likes that, and it does make her think I'm more desirable and that someone could be interested... and she doesn't want that! I do believe there is a fear in her that I could fall for someone else, someone who hasn't hurt me as much as she has. But we all know that's not happening because I really do want my M.
Posted By: MoveFrwd Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 11/02/16 05:19 AM
Originally Posted By: NYGal
I do believe there is a fear in her that I could fall for someone else, someone who hasn't hurt me as much as she has. But we all know that's not happening because I really do want my M.

If this is directed at me, then this is not the question I was asking.

I didnt ask if W was worried that you would fall for someone else.

I asked if she had any fear that you would walk away.

That has nothing to do with the presence of another person. This is about you knowing what you WANT and NEED out of a relationship and determining that your current W cant provide that. This is about your BOUNDARIES and the kinds of behavior that you will refuse to accept out of a partner.

NYG - Ive been with you in one form or another since the beginning. The ast thing I want to see is you back in the spot you were last winter. I know the hell youve been here and I hope that it has molded you into the strong independent woman I know that you can be. Im ecstatic that you and W are giving this a shot. But I dont want you to wind back in the same hell at some point in the future.

As you go through this, please remember YOUR worth and YOUR value.
Posted By: NYGal Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 11/04/16 10:13 AM
Can someone post a link to the lighthouse story?
Posted By: hawker Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 11/04/16 10:25 AM
Here you go...

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619
Posted By: NYGal Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 11/04/16 11:08 AM
BD was one year ago today. So I have been through 365 days of a changed life. I'll never be the same. Something inside has died, but hopefully other good things are taking root. I don't know how I survived Nov-April, but I did and I'm glad I never gave up hope. Piecing, reconciling, whatever we're in right now is hard. But not nearly as hard as the dark days and endless sleepless nights of Nov-April.

I'm grateful to all my DB friends: MB, Rain, Hawker, Cheesyt, Rouky, Thornton, Pink, TXHubby, Painter, WONKA!!, Hope, Sparkles, the list goes on and on and on. You all and those I haven't mentioned helped me through so much. Even those of you who are so darn tough on me! You know who you are...

It' heartbreaking to hear from the newbies whose pain is so acute and so new. It's just a horrible, awful process you have to go through. This forum helps so much. Just keep putting one foot in front of the other, breathe in and breathe out, and when you get knocked down just get back up again. You're not alone.
Posted By: hawker Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 11/04/16 01:08 PM
NyGal....ugh what an anniversary! I am glad that you made it to the other side and one of the lucky ones!! I don't wish being here on anyone but I am glad that we have a place to go to get support and strength from others who understand what we are going through. Thank you so much for all your support, you have been a great help to me!!!
Posted By: NYGal Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 11/18/16 09:29 AM
We continue to struggle and enjoy. Good days, great days, awful days. It's hard, people! If you are reconciling, piecing, whatever, fasten your seat belt. It's a bumpy ride.
XO
Posted By: cheesyt Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 11/18/16 09:37 AM
more bumpy than after the BD?!
Posted By: NYGal Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 11/18/16 09:47 AM
No, not more bumpy than those awful days where it felt like I was being thrown around in a hurricane. It's just that reconciling is tough! But worth it.
Posted By: hawker Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 11/18/16 09:57 AM
NYGal...I imagine it is tough!!! It is hard to let go of the past that was full of so much pain and disbelief someone we love so much could put us through that!!!

I am glad that you and your W still go to MC, I think that is important to work through all of the issues!!!

I am sure it is worth it and I wish I was there...maybe someday, maybe not!

Hang in there!!!
Posted By: Rouky Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 12/07/16 12:26 PM
Hi NYGal, how are you?
Posted By: Vanilla Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 12/07/16 03:36 PM
Yes lovely lady please update

V
Posted By: NYGal Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 12/15/16 03:59 PM
Bonjour Rouky! Hello Vanilla! I'm doing well. Piecing is tough. I have to remember that all the DB things that helped us R will help make the relationship better. Like being more independent. Learning to validate. Listening. It's easy to slip back into old habits and that doesn't help.

Went to a work party last Friday night. We both knew in advance that ow would be there. Thinking back to Wonka's advice from earlier, I got a new (red) outfit, cut and colored my hair, got a manicure with a bright red color... and felt like I was looking good! W wasn't sure that she wanted to go to the party, and I told her it was her decision and I'd honor that. I wasn't even sure until that day that we were going. I wanted to, because I thought it was an opportunity for me to face that ow hurdle on MY terms - prepared and ready.

When we drove up I saw her car in the parking lot, so we knew she was already there. We walked in and there she was in her black and white polka dotted glory, standing right in the spot where anyone coming in would see her. We hung up our coats and walked into the party right past her and began to socialize -- together and separately. Very soon, I was talking to someone and ow turned toward me, caught my eye, and started to walk toward me. I turned my gaze back to the guy I was talking with and ow turned around and went back to the group she had been talking with. It certainly felt like she was going to say something to me, then changed her mind. Wise decision, sow.

At one point I went into another room with a man who had attended a funeral of a friend that day and he seemed to want to talk about it privately. I admit I felt nervous having W and sow out of my sight, but I'm glad I was able to do that.

After about 2 hours, W and I were standing almost back to back as we interacted with two different groups of people. Out of the corner of my eye I see polka dots approaching W -- she joins her group, standing at her left. I was at W's right. I panicked. I'm sure I had a deer in the headlights look. I turned to W, tapped her on the shoulder and said, "Time to go." To her credit, she turned immediately and we thanked the host and left. It felt like a complete victory. I didn't have to be humiliated standing helplessly by while ow flirted with my W. I didn't have to see others noticing, because many in that room knew that ow is the homewrecker. But I'll never understand why these stupid OP don't understand that it's not exactly cool to approach the AP when the AP's spouse is standing there. Whatever.

However... the next day W said she felt bad all day and wished I had let her handle it. I panicked all over again, fearing that now she would have to smooth things over with ow the next time she sees her. Or worse, that W would contact her to tell her I embarrassed her or something. It turned into a fight because I lost my temper -- my response to panic.

I kept thinking about how when I let W handle it her way she 1) had lunch with ow two months after I moved back in, for "closure", 2) six weeks later walked her to her car after a meeting wherein they got all caught up on their respective relationships (none of ow's business how we're doing, dammit), and 3) sent her a wine list from the New York Times after we had a fight about a month ago. So forgive me if I don't have the confidence to TRUST that you'll handle it, W!

Most importantly, I cannot lose my temper because it shows my panic. I have to continue to GAL. I have to continue to work on validating and listening, like I said above. And I have to, I guess, act as though I hardly care if she sees ow? IDK about that. But what else can I do?

Next time, I'll post all the witty comebacks I've come up with just in case ow every does come up to me and says, "How are you?"
Posted By: Painter Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 12/18/16 08:06 AM
Hi, NYGal!

Good to see an update from you. It sounds like anger is something you could work on in IC, but I got to say that I think you're being put through some almost unbearable challenges. I can't even imagine going to a party with OW and dealing with her in the workplace like you have to. She clearly had not given up.

If you're not seeing an IC now, I think you could consider it. you need the support and a place to vent. I also think you could talk with a L who specializes in HR issues. It could be good for you to know about what could potentially be done about OW and her transgressions in the workplace.

I hope your holiday is peaceful and happy!
Posted By: Vanilla Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 12/18/16 05:33 PM
Nicely handled.

I would still prefer blackout with the SOW. Polka dots how apt!

Daisy.....

V
Posted By: NYGal Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 01/03/17 11:59 AM
Happy New Year all. Aren't you glad 2016 is over? Worst. Year. Ever.
I've made it through one year past BD (11/4/15) and then all sorts of one-year-milestones - the day W said ow is "in my heart" - the day she told me her decision to leave me was final (1/1/16 - great way to start the year) -- finding out that New Years Eve was the night their EA went to PA. At midnight this year I burst into tears at the thought of how they celebrated last year. But I quickly dried the tears and accepted W's embrace. 1/15 is the day I had to move out. This year that day will be just a blip on the radar screen.

I'm lucky and I know it. Hang in there, all of you still fighting for your M's. Some of you will reconcile. Some of you will find happiness in your new lives separate from that person who has caused so much pain. The darkness won't last forever.
Posted By: Stormchaser Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 01/03/17 12:06 PM
Congrats, NYGal.

Hey, when you get a chance, can you respond to my post, its in Piecing, I asked you a question on your sitch.

Thanks.
Posted By: Rouky Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 01/03/17 12:51 PM
Happy New Year NYGal, I hope it will bring you prosperity in your personal relationship with wifey. I'm so pleased that things are getting better. You followed your guts feelings and never gave up. You have such strength. I'm so proud of you and admire you.

Even if didn't save my marriage I'm glad to have come here as I gain a friend in you. Keep us posted on how you get on.

Much love Rouky xx
Posted By: NYGal Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 01/05/17 01:07 PM
Hey Storm, I'm not sure what your question was. Why not pose it here, or send the link to your post?
Thanks.
Posted By: Stormchaser Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 01/09/17 12:46 PM
Originally Posted By: NYGal
Hey Storm, I'm not sure what your question was. Why not pose it here, or send the link to your post?
Thanks.


In Piecing, you wrote about your W working with OP.

My W cheated, but still works with OM. Its been a year. She tried to reassure me things are done between them, but after a year, it been gnawing at me more and more the fact that they're still in the same workplace.

She has a job in that where if she leaves, she will have to start from the bottom up - in her field, that could take many years, and being that she's 50, it would be very financially unwise for her to do so. She's been as transparent as can be, regrets what she did, but working with the OM just tortures me daily.

I thought I remember you saying your W and OP still work together....just wondering how you make that work?
Posted By: NYGal Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 01/09/17 03:09 PM
Hi Storm. W, ow and I all work at the same place. W and ow are in meetings together about once a month. I sometimes see ow in my building or in hers. On Wednesday she will actually be speaking to a committee of which I'm a member (tee hee - can't wait.) I will be front and center and hope to ask her about ethics and Human Resources -- the department she heads. LOL.

I wish more than anything that W and I could leave this place, or that ow would just go somewhere, anywhere, far away. But it's not happening any time soon. So I just deal with it. W and I have an agreement that whenever they see each other -- a meeting or just by chance, she will tell me. If your W and OM work in the same small office, that's harder. However, if she has agreed to work on it with you and if it is absolutely O.V.E.R. then all you can do is try to trust her. Trust but verify. W has blocked ow on her phone. Of course they can always communicate via email, or on the office phone, but again, we have an agreement that W will tell me if ow tries to contact her. I have to believe that W won't try to contact her. And frankly, she did not hold true to that promise for the first few months. I think it's better now. I don't believe she has contacted ow, or vice versa, for about 2 months.

We did see ow at a work party, and that was the last time they saw each other.

So, what worked for me? Mainly the promise that she will tell me if they run into each other or if there is any other contact. If your W and the OM see each other regularly, and it has been a long time, then I suspect the A has truly died out. As long as you and W continue to work on your M, and as long as you are enjoying each other, I think you can probably let your guard down a lot.

This is important. There came a point where I realized that W was doing everything she could do to reassure me, and I was the one causing the problems because I couldn't let it go. She may not have been doing everything I wanted her to (I wanted her to email ow early on and tell her to never contact her again, but W refused to do that, saying she wanted to handle it her own way), but she was doing everything she felt she could do. And ultimately it was important for her to feel like she was freely choosing to avoid contact rather than having me enforce it.

It takes time. But we just have to take the risk of being fooled again. I came to realize that losing her again because I couldn't let myself forgive or trust her would be worse than just taking the risk of being fooled all over again. So I chose to trust (mostly... I still verify when I can!) and to risk being the fool. So far, so good!
Posted By: Stormchaser Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 01/10/17 01:00 PM
Originally Posted By: NYGal


This is important. There came a point where I realized that W was doing everything she could do to reassure me, and I was the one causing the problems because I couldn't let it go.


This is my worst issue. We had MC last night and my W said she needs to separate because I don't trust her anymore - not just with OM, but in general. For some reason, my worry and anxiety has spiked recently and she's been taking the brunt of it.

I guess we'll see what separation brings. This was so hard for me to let go, I'm not sure I ever will...
Posted By: NYGal Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 01/10/17 03:03 PM
Ugh. I'm so sorry. Re-read the book and work the program. Do your best to let it go and GAL. What you do next is so important. Can you get a DB coach?
Posted By: NYGal Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 01/12/17 02:52 PM
Trust. It's not easy. Today W and ow were in a 5 hour meeting meeting together. We reviewed the protocol this morning before work. Don't sit together, avoid her, etc. Text updates. W: Of course, I promise!
I got one text... "all fine, not at my table."
I wrote back, "What did you say to her?" I got nothing back until 20 minutes after the meeting. "I just got out. No communication." Oh, ok, fine. Except for the fact that I was in a meeting in the same building and saw them walk out together smiling and laughing 10 minutes earlier. Together.

This is 9 months after we began reconciliation, people. Seven months after I moved back home. The lies continue. So Stormchaser, if you're seeing this? Good luck to you my friend. It takes a whole lot of self control to deal with these situations.
Posted By: Sotto Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 01/13/17 01:45 AM
Hi NYG, this is JMHO but I think you are trying to micromanage the interactions between your W and prior OW, which I don't think is a good dynamic in your R.

What if you just released that and accepted - either she wants to be in this R with me - or she will interact with OW? Is it helping the situation for you to be agreeing protocols, which she then doesn't follow - but lies to you about it because she knows you will be upset?

I understand the fear that it could happen again - truly. But I think letting go of the control would be a good thing...

JMHO of course and I'm sorry your W wasn't honest about the interaction...xx
Posted By: MoveFrwd Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 01/13/17 06:10 AM
Originally Posted By: Kaizen
Originally Posted By: darknes

Given those parameters, what is your plan? My concern for you is that your W has no fear of crossing your boundaries. Sure, youre going to get mad or 'lose it', and then what? Time marches on, you swallow it, and you guys resume living your life.


My concern has not changed. Your boundaries seem so flimsy in that you say you arent willing to accept this kind of contact with OW, but then theres no real consequence to it once W crosses that line. Sure, you get mad or in this case, you left the house for a bit...but does W have any inclination that this might be a deal breaker for you? Does she have fear that YOU would be the one to walk away?

Hawker said above that you need to protect yourself. And I wholeheartedly agree. You DO need to protect yourself. But not just financially...emotionally as well.


As W continues to show the same behaviors, what is your plan? To continue to rug-sweep?
Posted By: Stormchaser Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 01/16/17 12:27 PM
Originally Posted By: NYGal
Trust. It's not easy. Today W and ow were in a 5 hour meeting meeting together. We reviewed the protocol this morning before work. Don't sit together, avoid her, etc. Text updates. W: Of course, I promise!
I got one text... "all fine, not at my table."
I wrote back, "What did you say to her?" I got nothing back until 20 minutes after the meeting. "I just got out. No communication." Oh, ok, fine. Except for the fact that I was in a meeting in the same building and saw them walk out together smiling and laughing 10 minutes earlier. Together.

This is 9 months after we began reconciliation, people. Seven months after I moved back home. The lies continue. So Stormchaser, if you're seeing this? Good luck to you my friend. It takes a whole lot of self control to deal with these situations.


So, what became of this?

If its any consolation, I also just found out my W had communicated with OM. Being its a fitness/health type facility, I had figured there HAD to be some kind of communication besides the usual "hello goodbye". W constantly reassured me that they rarely if ever speak, but then casually told me just now that she had referred a client to "butthole". So, of course, because they now have the same client, I know there's going to be regular interaction between them.

This discourages me, yet I know it was bound to come out. I'm pretty angry, yet I know why its done. To avoid such arguments. I was told in therapy that its a protective thing the WS do - they know they caused all this harm, so to stop causing anything more they lie. Its likely nothing is going on. More than likely. Almost 100% certain. The WS is feeling back to normal so they want to return back to a normal life, yet here we are, the betrayed, being triggered by these casual encounters.

Ugh.
Posted By: Painter Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 01/16/17 02:26 PM
NYGal, I'm so sorry you're still dealing with this. Are you going to bring it up in counseling?

It seems like your W is still in a fog. It doesn't sound like she really has taken in how much she's hurt you. Also, she may be afraid of your anger?

((((((NYGal))))))
Posted By: annab74 Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 01/19/17 03:23 AM
NYGal, what is your gut feeling about your W's interactions with OW? Do you think they are innocent? Is W lying to you to cover up illicit behavior, or is she lying to avoid your reaction? And can you live with lies, whatever the reason?

WH used to lie to me constantly. Some of it was to cover up his shenanigans, but later, I think another part was that it was easier to lie than tell the truth, be questioned, and not believed anyway. I don't have a whole lot of sympathy for that because, hey, if you want people to believe you...don't lie and cheat in the first place...nonetheless...not all lies mean cheating.

In an ideal situation, W would have enough respect for your feelings not to engage in these behaviors that upset you, but that's not happening. But either way, our "protocols" that bring us reassurance are not a panacea. W could seemingly follow your requests down to a perfect science and still find a way to skirt around behind your back if she wanted. Mine did. WH was the epitome of remorse and made it a point to tell me where he was at every point of the day, text me constantly, send me photos of where he was at and who he was with, show me the texts received on his phone...everything. He was still cheating. I would never have known except OW called and told me everything, and then he confessed.

You can't control W no matter what, and even if she did everything you asked, it wouldn't be a guarantee of her honesty. As difficult as it is, either you trust her, or you don't. If you trust her, let it go. If you don't trust her, are you willing to leave, or will you accept anything she does, as long as it means you get to be in a relationship with her?
Posted By: NYGal Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 02/14/17 10:12 AM
Thanks for all your good advice. Update: W talked it all out with our MC in a private appointment. Then a friend who's going through a D because her partner of 22 years is having an A came over and cried and was so miserable. It gave W a chance to see the pain As cause. So both the therapy and this realization have made things better. W is trying, and so am I.

And I'm reading MWD's book on infidelity and finding it incredibly helpful. I wish i had it 6 months ago.
Posted By: hawker Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 02/14/17 05:45 PM
I am glad that things are going better!! :-) I'm sorry to hear about your friend...ugh...22 years...so much pain I am sure. What did your W have to say about seeing your friend like that?

Keep up the good work!! :-)
Posted By: NYGal Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 03/13/17 08:43 PM
Reconciliation after an A is hard folks.
Posted By: Matrix Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 03/13/17 09:10 PM
Originally Posted By: NYGal
Reconciliation after an A is hard folks.


Preach.

I have seen this war play out from both sides of the line.

I sit here today, wanting nothing more than to have the chance to reconcile with my wife. But, I have already been down that road (years ans years ago) and I already know the tormenting hell that would be waiting for me on the other side of that line.

This journey for all of us is so ironic, funny and sad. Most of the folks on these boards would give their right arm for a chance at saving their marriage and family. Yet I read story after story, of people finally getting that miracle, only to find out that the worst part of their journey has just begun.
Posted By: Train Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 03/13/17 09:21 PM
^^^^ x2. All the more reason to make sure we're in it because there is something valuable to be saved and not just to "win."

Piecing is the hardest part.
Posted By: annab74 Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 03/14/17 08:05 AM
NYGal...I have been thinking about you and wondering how things were going! Hope you are hanging in there!
Posted By: JujuB Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 03/14/17 08:36 AM
NY

Is it hard because you are feeling unsure of whether you want the relationship or hard because you feel that you are still pursuing?
Posted By: Cristy Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 05/09/17 03:56 PM
Originally Posted By: NYGal
Ugh. I'm so sorry. Re-read the book and work the program. Do your best to let it go and GAL. What you do next is so important. Can you get a DB coach?


Stormchaser,

Are you still with us?

How can we help you?

Cristy

Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004
Posted By: Stormchaser Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 05/10/17 01:56 PM
Ironically, I just decided to check this thread and see you are asking about me.

I will have an update later, but it is nothing but fantastic news. W severed her ties at work completely because OM received a massive promotion and this would require her spending time with him literally all day. The day his promotion was announced was the day she sent her resignation letter effective immediately and she never stepped foot there again.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 05/10/17 04:36 PM
Stormchaser

I love hearing this!! There are few DBers who reconcile AND then post here. It's so helpful. If and when you can, just a post letting the newbies and in Piecing, - that it can improve, will help.

Storm, I'm not familiar with your story. I apologize for giving out a piece of advice that may not apply to you specifically. So please take this with the spirit in which it's written.

If I could go back in time to my own recon, here's what I'd do differently ---once the recon had begun...


First, i'd insist we both get IC. We went a few times to the same MC we had seen during the M. And I would see a T on my own. H was "too busy with work" and besides, he was home.

We never really got to the bottom of how h could feel okay about his choices for long time away from our kids and me, or what the underlying issues were in him to steer him in such a destructive way. Looking back-maybe I didn't want to see how he saw me or our family, or whatever existed/exists within h.

I'm not saying all ^^that could have been fixed. But 10 years ago, who knows? I'd have known it was over a lot earlier. Or we'd really get to the bottom of what was eating away at him and I'd have had sufficient information to make my own choice. Maybe We could have made changes or different choices.

Early in our recon, h's mom was diagnosed with terminal cancer. So we shelved a lot of piecing. We did attend Retrovaille (I still think it's an excellent program) and h made progress in a short intense weekend. Naively, I felt as if we were "cured" b/c I saw sincere remorse in h...

But we didn't follow up with Retrovaille's subsequent sessions, ("it's too far, needed a sitter, logistical issues" and blah blah blah. I'm shaking my head at that decision).

I was naive enough to think we were all "past it" b/c I saw real regret in h and h was not in Alaska. Then we went into crisis mode for his mom.

Other issues existed, but are beyond the scope of my main point.

**The other thing I'd do differently is get specifics about HOW we'd regain what we once had & how to know when we were on/off track. Other than overt fighting, there were no "signs" for us. We didn't really identify what the underlying "same old" stuff was!

We needed some type of barometer to better guide us for how our r was doing.

In short, IC for each of us as individuals, (esp the WAS) and agreed upon measurement "tools" for our m.

That's^^ what I'd do differently if I had it all to do over again in my situation.


I do not know if it would have changed the outcome, but I know I lacked enough info to make an informed decision, and ended up making a poor choice somewhere along the way.

(((Storm, bravo.)))
Posted By: BluWave Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 05/10/17 04:53 PM
NYGal, 25 & Storm,

I take so much from all of you and your stories. Thank you!

Storm, I wish you had a thread going ...

25, I swear, I cannot keep up with your thread. lol.

NYG--how are things? It's been awhile, I hope you are well. Please update soon!

Blu
Posted By: NYGal Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 05/11/17 03:38 PM
Hi everyone, I'm doing great. W and I are still working on our R every day. But it's not all work, it's fun, too.

I still see the sow (stupid other woman) on occasion at work, and I still want to flag down a bus when I'm in a position to push... but I restrain myself. Last 2 times I had to be in a meeting with her I actually put a 2nd, more prominent ring on my left ring finger so there was no missing the fact that W and I are together. LOL. And there's a big event for our work that we will not be attending because W doesn't want to have to see sow. So that's good, too.

Hang in there people. Work this program. Do your best and know that we all make mistakes. And if it ends? It's not the end. Life still holds promise of great happiness. Go for it.
Posted By: Vanilla Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 05/11/17 03:42 PM
Lovely to hear from you

V
Posted By: Coly23 Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 05/11/17 03:54 PM
Thanks for popping back with an update NYGal! Great to hear that your relationship is going from strength to strength. Just what I need to keep me going!
Posted By: Thornton Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 05/11/17 08:05 PM
I love to see this NY! So happy for you! Keep putting in the work, it will only help you and W.
Posted By: NYGal Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 06/05/17 02:20 PM
Advice needed. W and I have an agreement that she will tell me whenever she sees, hears, talks to, gets an email from, sees a smoke signal... from the ow. We had a rough day yesterday and I got suspicious so I checked her emails. (Don't judge me.) As some of you may recall, we all work at the same place... they are in a meeting right now. So I know, it's just work. But our agreement was that she'd tell me. And she has lied so many times before. "Oh no, I never saw her or talked to her..." after I saw them walking out of a meeting together.
Now remember, they ended the affair last April - then there was the temp checking "closure" lunch last July.
Just yesterday she swore she has not seen or heard from her in months... months, mind you! But I saw the email exchanges on her iPad. They set up this meeting mid-May. That's when I sensed something changing. I have a sixth sense about this. Don't we all?
So what do I do?
Posted By: Thornton Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 06/06/17 06:47 AM
NY - sorry to hear about this.

Has the recent email correspondence just been about work? Or is it personal?
Posted By: cheesyt Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 06/06/17 07:46 AM
I know you love her I cant imagine how hard this is but if you feel like something is up, it most likely is. trust your gut.
now what are you going to do?
should you be right, what's the next step?
what is Nygal doing for herself?
Posted By: NYGal Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 06/06/17 08:15 AM
Originally Posted By: Thornton
NY - sorry to hear about this.

Has the recent email correspondence just been about work? Or is it personal?

Just work related, but they were always very careful never to sound personal in their work emails when the affair was in full swing.

Then last night W deleted the meeting from her calendar - three hours after it was over...
And she's being super sweet and nice and loving. WTH?
Posted By: Cristy Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 06/06/17 08:27 AM
Hi NYGal,

Super sweet and nice and loving is ok, right? Maybe she feels guilty because she knows she hasn't been transparent.

Little compares to the devastation people feel when they discover their spouse has been unfaithful. Couples often struggle to get past intense emotional pain, mistrust, resentment and never ending arguments about the betrayal. Healing from infidelity is achievable for both of you with the right support and tools.

Have you read Michele's newest book Healing from Infidelity?

Cristy

Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004
Posted By: Thornton Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 06/06/17 09:03 AM
My best advice is to not let W know that you are suspicious right now.

I would quietly keep an eye on her. If she's being sneaky, she will eventually shoot herself in the foot.
Posted By: Stormchaser Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 06/06/17 11:32 AM
My W worked with OM for another year after BD.

I did catch her deleting things. Her reason was she didn't want me to worry. She knew even the mere mention of his name caused distress. Things were innocent, yet I couldn't STAND that they still communicated. PERIOD. Even if it was once a month.

It could be that she's protecting you. She may know how this bothers you.

In my case, my W finally quit her job once the OM got promoted. She never gave notice - just resigned on the spot. I'm a firm believer that once an affair is busted at work, employment should end immediately. One of the biggest regrets I have is letting her stay on a year after she was caught. I have nothing but disdain for the MC that advised this.

You may want to discuss this with your W. That this work situation is no longer tolerable.
Posted By: Painter Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 06/07/17 10:01 AM
Hi NYGal,

Glad to see you around! I'm happy to hear that you are still working on things with W, and I'm sorry that you still don't have complete transparency in your R. Are you still in couples' counseling? Would it be a thought to bring up your gut feeling there to see if W will decide to come clean?

I would have such a hard time being with someone who was lying to me. I agree that patience is key, but I think it should be addressed somehow.
Posted By: TxHubby Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 06/07/17 01:05 PM
Just wanted to pop in and say hi. I have no real advice. Playing marriage cop really [censored]. Been there, getting out. Good luck to you, you're one of my favorite people here and I hope you are happy and will continue to be happy.
Posted By: NYGal Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 06/08/17 04:21 PM
Tx, aw shucks, thanks! I've been seeing your posts here and there. I'm gathering that your M has gotten rocky again - or is over from what you just said? Gosh, I'm so sorry. Really sorry.
Painter, yes, we are in therapy and it's helping. I just went today for a solo session and MC suggested that I just express my fears in general - since I'm not ready to let on yet that I know she's not being transparent.
Stormchaser, thanks for your explanation that it can all be very innocent and meant to protect me and my feelings. Yes, it's true that merely mentioning sow's name gets me down. I do think the meeting was purely business. It's just so, so hard to really trust again.
And Cristy, I have Michelle's book on Healing from Infidelity and I have read only a little. Lazy I guess. I remember thinking I wish I had it when we first got back together. So even though I haven't read it all, I can attest to its helpfulness. I'm taking a trip to Los Angeles this weekend. I'll read it there.
Thanks everyone.
She continues to be super sweet and nice and reassuring.
The work continues.
Posted By: NYGal Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 06/23/17 08:42 AM
Hi everybody. Is it wrong to snoop when you're building trust but you just don't believe it and then when you check there are more work-related emails and now they involve a project they have to work on and a report that has to be produced by August 1st? Ironically it's a report to address the latest scandal to hit this crazy place we (all) work. And so the homewrecking ow is in charge of making sure W's department is ethical. And she has to work on it with W! You couldn't make this stuff up.
WTF?
Posted By: Thornton Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 06/23/17 09:04 AM
That's a tough one, NY.

I know you probably have some PTSD from the last time so this is probably triggering your fears.

I think for me, if I were in your shoes, I would trust but verify. If W being in communication with OW is work mandated, there's not much you can do. She might not tell you because she doesnt want you to flip out about something that's not there.

Keep working on you and your relationship for the time being. If W is up to something sneaky, you will find out.
Posted By: NYGal Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 06/24/17 02:53 AM
I just don't get why she can't be honest with me. We had the ironclad agreement, that if there were texts, phone calls, emails, she would tell me. Work or personal. In fact, especially work because why would she tell me if they were personal, since if they are communicating on a personal level we are DONE. W is incapable of setting boundaries. Yesterday they spoke on the phone for over 35 minutes. I could see it because our phone system at work shows when a line is in use. I stared at that for the entire time and saw them hang up at exactly the same time. I think it drove me a little insane and I lost it last night. W admitted only to a 15 minute convo (lie), insisted that was all and that there was nothing personal. But then as the truth came out, she said she shared her frustrations about the latest scandal to hit our great institution with sow. She said sow "understands".

I broke down. Lost it completely. The reason for the call may have been work, but 35 minutes later is that ALL it was? SOW is the shot of cheap whiskey in front of the recovering alcoholic sitting at a bar. Yesterday W downed that shot. What's next?

I am embarrassed at my behavior last night and I certainly didn't further my cause at all. Every little lie that I knew was a lie I jumped on, screaming and yelling. I accused her of all sorts of things. Vulgar things. I don't know how to recover from all this. She actually held my hand and kissed me goodbye when she left this morning to go golf. I will have the day to myself as I do every Saturday to reflect on this.

In some ways I envy all those whose marriages ended after the affair, all those who have the chance to move on and start over. This hell of doubt and uncertainty is unbearable sometimes. How can anyone build trust when the WAS continues to lie and break agreements, even when (I suspect) there is nothing going on (yet) with the (former) ow? What happens after the alcoholic takes that first drink after all those months of nothing? What happens when there's another phone call and other work project?
Posted By: BluWave Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 06/24/17 06:18 AM
(((NYGal))) I am so sorry. It hurts so, so much :-(

I wanted to offer you some support because I do feel your pain, especially when you question what things would be like had you just moved on after the A. My H has zero contact with OW and I still wonder what it would be like if he didn't come back. I think that is perfectly normal and par for the course. The thing is, piecing is very hard work, but we can't really compare it to ending the M. They are just completely different paths with different ups and downs. When I read other threads of people that went their separate ways and even chose to (coconut for example), it is not just easier, but it's different and I see sadness and self doubt too.

I think it is fine to verify (snoop) that she is living up to the agreement, and especially considering that they work together and you know there is contact. Others here may not agree with me and that is okay; I am not saying either opinion is right or wrong. Honestly, I don't know how you do it. I couldn't (and wouldn't) tolerate my H having any contact with OW. To take it a step further, I don't think I could tolerate him even wanting to have contact with her. A big part of my willingness to work on the M and work on forgiving H has to do with his regret about what happened and therefore he has some disgust for how he behaved (and consequently towards her).

I am not suggesting that you should adopt my attitude, not at all! I am trying to sympathize with how much harder this must be for you. A large part of my motivation for forgiving H is because he has demonstrated over and over in the last 2 years that the A was a mistake, that he regrets it, and that he would want nothing to do with her. The topic makes him uncomfortable and ashamed and he wishes he could erase it and her. If he had to see her, work with her, or remain in contact with her, the entire dynamic would be different. I can't see how you can respect a coworker and work with them if you are trying to move past an A (if considered a mistake or addiction) with them. I honestly don't get it.

When you describe the addiction of the A to addiction to alcohol, well I am not sure how similar they are. I wonder if someone who has had an addiction can speak better to that? If it were true, then I would think this A would have been continuing more than it has. She is right there all the time, no? It does not appear that she wants a R with her does it? ... It does seem that they have some sort of friendship and that she isn't honest with you about that. ... I can absolutely see how unsettling that would be for you! If she is trying work on trust, then I would think she would cut her off and have as minimal contact as possible. Then she would need to offer complete transparency, "OW called today and we spoke for 35 minutes about XYZ. She called me for this reason. This is how I felt during the call. I am sorry if that is hard for you to hear."

Is that asking too much? I don't know, maybe. But the point is that their R (even if only about work) is causing you a lot of stress and anxiety. It seems to be impeding the piecing process. My first thought is that what can you guys do to change this entire situation? A lot of people do move and change jobs after an A (our MC told us that because OW does not live far from us and our kids are still friends). So even if that would be very difficult or feels impossible, I have to wonder if what you are doing now is any easier? From my side of the screen it looks like torture!

I gotta hand it to you, you are one strong lady. I couldn't do what you are doing. Please don't be so hard on yourself for getting upset and angry. Of course you are upset and angry! If we hold it in and live with daily anxiety/stress, well eventually it will come out. I'm sorry, but is sounds like your W needs a kick in the pants. ... You don't have to beat yourself up over it or even show her your weakness. Maybe the best course of action is to step back, create space for yourself, and start really really thinking about how long you can live this way. Maybe you need something to change.

Keep posting. We have your back. I wish I had something better to add.

Blu
Posted By: cadence Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 06/24/17 10:39 AM
Hey NYGal,

I read your threads from start to finish and to see you post is like me seeing a celebrity. OMG OMG smile

Quote:
In some ways I envy all those whose marriages ended after the affair, all those who have the chance to move on and start over. This hell of doubt and uncertainty is unbearable sometimes.


It breaks my heart to hear you say this. I remember reading how torn apart you are without W. Maybe it would be helpful for you, when you're feeling pessimistic, to go back and read them again yourself? I'd hate for you to be having grass is greener type thoughts, because from everything I've read, the two of you really love one another.

Quote:
We had the ironclad agreement, that if there were texts, phone calls, emails, she would tell me. Work or personal. In fact, especially work because why would she tell me if they were personal, since if they are communicating on a personal level we are DONE.


Okay, is this agreement in writing? Or is it sort of vaguely out there? Because I would put it in writing. Your W is toeing the line, probably because the agreement isn't solid and undeniable.

I believe, along with others, that she is probably not telling you because she fears your reaction. She has to work with W (my understanding is she has a high-profile gig with not too many other local opportunities for similar, so it wouldn't be easy nor desirable to leave her work).

Quote:
I broke down. Lost it completely.


While I empathize totally, and would probably do the same, I think this is working against your own self-interest.

I see a terrible cycle happening here. You're watching W's actions for any hint that you'll be hurt again. W has to interact with exOW for work, and isn't being fully forthcoming with you about it. Most likely it is because she fears an emotional reaction and conflict from you, not because she is going to cheat again (but we don't know that for sure.) Knowing she's not disclosing the truth allows you to grow hurt and resentment, while you monitor her more closely, and W continues to work with exOW while mostly hiding it from you. And then your resentment explodes and you get emotional, thus confirming for W that she is doing the right thing by not telling you.

This cycle is a huge problem. You know it and I bet W would agree, too.

For you, I think the cycle has another downside: it's handing W the upper hand in the relationship. She gets to choose the path that things go, and you're the emotional one. Let's get back to an emotionally-equal partnership.

What I would do is get it on the table in a contract. Super sexy, right?

I think you should have a signed agreement that for x period of time, W will tell you of any and all interaction. In return for this honesty, you will do your best to have a calm response with an assumption that W is trustworthy. In order to minimize emotional bonds, W will treat exOW like a disliked coworker, keep interaction all business and minimize anything resembling emotional bonding.

This would be a win/win for both of you. What you need from her would be out there. What she needs from you would be out there. She'd know that if both parties did their best to adhere to the contract, trust would be restored enough that the contract would no longer be needed (i.e. this isn't endless.)

W really has to understand that her dishonesty in the past has consequences, and being totally open with you is a consequence. Secrets are destructive.

And you could still trust but verify for however long you need to, but do know that is probably going to grow unhealthy and obsessive for you at a certain point.

Put some thought into a written contract to try to get a new healthier cycle going. Right now you're both spiraling down and I want better for you.

And, for you NYGal, in reading your threads, I worry for you. I think you let W back pretty easy, and I don't think you got to the point where you were fully confident on your own and not willing to tolerate BS. So I think it's so incredibly important that you are in IC with a focus on emotional resiliency and resisting making W the absolute center of your life. In my opinion, those were some of the contributors to your original R problems.
Posted By: Coconut Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 06/24/17 12:13 PM
I saw your post, and although I've been around on and off for over a year, I didn't recall your sitch, so I went back and read all your posts from start to reconciliation.

First, it was good to see some of Wonkas posts, her and Sandi2 really helped me a lot, or at least tried to get me to help myself, and just want to say that I hope she's doing well, I know she had a lot of family stuff going on.

Wow, I envy you, your strength in what you've been able to accomplish thus far demonstrates the love you and your W have for each other. It's possible that my sitch would have resulted in piecing, but unlike you (and maybe a little like you) I was not able to get past my W continuing to have contact with OM (they both volunteered at a fire dept).

You're so far past where I got, that I hesitate to comment, but I do have some understanding of where you are (with the contact) and the snooping to get the truth. I believe feeling that you need to snoop will become detrimental to you and if you can't get past the "need to do so", your MR.

I would suggest two things:
#1 it's first because I agree with cadence, you need to get back to working on you. This needs to be first so that you don't do things, or not do things, because you fear losing her. You need to want to stay with your W, not stay because your afraid of losing her.

#2 have that dreaded discussion, tell her what you know, but more importantly why you looked, how it makes you feel, and what you need moving forward. While I don't know that a written contract would make a difference, it may be easier to relay your boundaries if they are clearly written out, since conversations tend to get sidetracked and things can be forgotten. It is important you have boundaries, and with that, for your own sanity you have to be willing to enforce them and she needs to be clear on that.

As for your comment that it's easier to just start new, I kind of agree with you, but in no way is it easy. I still struggle with the fact she never got how wrong what she did was (the A and even more so, all the lies and deceit), never apologized or showed any real remorse. Plus I'm a year out from being done with M, and still not ready to start seeing anyone else. I have a Dr. who wants to go out with me, it's soooo tempting, but I know I'm still not ready to build a healthy R. So I'm not sure what easier looks like to you, but I wish it was easier than it is.
Posted By: pinn Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 06/25/17 04:13 AM
Hey NY,

I think the problem is there has never been any *real* consequences when your wife violates boundaries. There is a brief argument then things go back to normal and your wife starts the cycle again sometime later. Agree with cadence... get it in writing so there is no doubt. But you have to be prepared to walk away if the violations continue otherwise the whole thing is pointless.

Tough spot since she works with OW. I would never be able to go back to WW if OM was a co-worker unless one of them left the company.
Posted By: annab74 Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 06/25/17 07:58 AM
Originally Posted By: pinn
Hey NY,

I think the problem is there has never been any *real* consequences when your wife violates boundaries. There is a brief argument then things go back to normal and your wife starts the cycle again sometime later. Agree with cadence... get it in writing so there is no doubt. But you have to be prepared to walk away if the violations continue otherwise the whole thing is pointless.




This ^^^^^^^

As has already been pointed out, the covert communication may mean nothing other than W isn't comfortable telling you the truth. That's something you can work on. W and you both have needs for safety in this situation. W needs to feel safe to open up and be honest without fear of a blow up from you. You need to feel safe that she is actually *being* honest and honorable with her activities and intentions. Until you both get what you need, this cycle is going to continue.

Although I think there needs to be understanding for the fact both people have unmet needs and fears in this situation, I think it's also salient that this behavior seems to be a pattern with W. She has never appeared to respect your boundaries, nor have there been any consequences for not doing so. You teach other people how to treat you by the things you allow to continue.
Posted By: MoveFrwd Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 06/26/17 12:30 AM
I can only imagine the difficulty of piecing as I never went through that process. Judging only from the words Ive read here of the people in piecing, it sounds like an extreme test of emotional strength. For even attempting it, I commend you and W.

That said, it is also difficult to read your posts as you come and write almost exactly the same post every month or two. W and OW had XYZ conversation and W lied or minimized or covered up or whatever. You keep expecting her to do something or be something and when it doesnt happen, you 'lose it'. So W 'acts better' and a few weeks later, the cycle is repeating.

Accepting the fact that W and OW do work together and continue to work together, what exactly are your boundaries? What kind of contact do you consider acceptable and what do you consider unacceptable? Are those clear to W? What are your actions if those boundaries are crossed? Are those responses consistent? Are they also made clear? Are you actually willing to implement any of these responses?
Posted By: Stormchaser Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 06/26/17 02:51 AM
Speaking from experience:

My W worked with OM for over a year after BD.

Anna said what I went through. My W assured me that communication was barely "hi, bye" at work. Later I found out there was more and I wasn't happy. I also have a temper and let her know how pissed I was that she still talked to him.

I have a bit of a different take: Infidelity, IMO, is one of the worst things one spouse can do to another. My new IC has helped me see that I'm going through PTSD. I have every right to be angry that they still work together. Its a constant thorn in my side, wondering what kind of banter they have. Of course they're gonna lie. They know its wrong but continue to do it without any consequences. Plus, my new IC helped me see that if my W had ANY remorse, she'd quit. My W would use the excuse that she had a specialty job, or that we'd lose her income - and that's what they were, merely excuses. Many executives were forced out of their jobs for corporate shenanignas, so why was HER job so special? I wasn't asking her to give up her career, just her stupid job. Our MC would get mad at ME for wanting my W to quit. Once I started seeing the new IC, this crappy MC went out the window and I started to recover. My new IC taught me that it was perfectly OK with me to be angry that she continued working with OM. As a matter of fact, he told me if she had resigned immediately last year, it would've saved us a year of pain and torture. And in that year she likely would've found something better.

Now, NYGAL, you're NOT gonna like what I say next: Several months ago I found out OM got promoted. I saw this and my heart sunk. I knew they're be daily interaction for sure now. I was living on hope that my W was telling the truth and they barely communicated. Now that he was going to be her boss, this would change. My IC and I talked and I decided that was that. I couldn't stay in the marriage. He was all in agreement. HOWEVER, before I had a chance to tell her I wanted out, she told me she resigned that morning and cc'd me in on her resignation email. She didn't even bother with notice. It was effective immediately and we had lunch later that day.

She admitted she knew this would destroy us and wanted to stay married, no matter what. She would do whatever it took to keep us together, even if it meant getting a menial job below her qualifications. In that year, we both changed for the better. This would ruin everything we worked hard at.

You know what? Yes, I'm broke. I'm so far in debt its not funny. Yes, she's starting over. It may take her a year to recover. But - I'm happy. I mean, I'm ecstatic!! They are no longer together. She's now 100% focused on me. Because we're struggling financially, we sit down and talk about it. She understands. She's become frugal. We cut back. We make it work. We find ways to make it work. Its been 3 months since her resignation and I'm watching her evolve. This forced her to become a savvy business woman now and her home business will likely take off in a year. She created a website. Support is pouring in now.

I'm helping. I WANT to help!! This was the thing that held me back from giving 100% to the marriage. With her willingness to quit, I found myself really invested in what she was doing now. We're broke but happy.

Now - my W had no retirement, pension or anything with her old company - but I believe had she had all that, she'd STILL leave. She'd figure something out.

I'm sorry - but I think you'll never have any peace until OW and W are separated.
Posted By: NYGal Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 06/26/17 11:12 AM
Storm, that's a wonderful story and I think it speaks volumes for the depth of your love for each other. Kudos to your W for the courageous step she took.
Posted By: NYGal Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 06/26/17 11:16 AM
Thank you all for such thoughtful replies! I'm sincerely humbled. My "quote" button isn't working, so I'm going to just quote some of you and respond.

Blu:"A big part of my willingness to work on the M and work on forgiving H has to do with his regret about what happened and therefore he has some disgust for how he behaved (and consequently towards her)… If he had to see her, work with her, or remain in contact with her, the entire dynamic would be different. I can't see how you can respect a coworker and work with them if you are trying to move past an A (if considered a mistake or addiction) with them. I honestly don't get it."

YOU HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD THERE, BLU. THAT'S EXACTLY HOW I FEEL. W EXPRESSES REGRET, BUT THE DISGUST PART IS MISSING. I KNOW I CAN'T CONTROL THAT BUT IT WOULD MAKE ME FEEL BETTER IF I KNEW SHE WAS REALLY TRYING TO AVOID THE ow INSTEAD OF HAVING A 35 MINUTE CONVERSATION WITH HER! I'VE SEEN SO MANY EXAMPLES OF HER LIES, LIKE THE TIME SHE SWORE THERE WAS NO CONTACT, NOPE, NONE. BUT I SAW THEM LEAVING A MEETING TOGETHER CHATTING. THAT WAS MONTHS AGO BUT THOSE THINGS STICK IN MY BRAIN AND COME BACK WHEN THINGS LIKE THIS PHONE CALL HAPPEN. AND THEN I TRY TO BELIEVE ALL THE SWEET WORDS UNTIL… BAM SOMETHING ELSE HAPPENS.

Cadence: "I see a terrible cycle happening here. You're watching W's actions for any hint that you'll be hurt again. W has to interact with exOW for work, and isn't being fully forthcoming with you about it. Most likely it is because she fears an emotional reaction and conflict from you, not because she is going to cheat again (but we don't know that for sure.) Knowing she's not disclosing the truth allows you to grow hurt and resentment, while you monitor her more closely, and W continues to work with exOW while mostly hiding it from you. And then your resentment explodes and you get emotional, thus confirming for W that she is doing the right thing by not telling you." DO YOU LIVE INSIDE MY HEAD? YOU SUMMED IT UP EXACTLY. YOU'RE RIGHT, MAYBE I NEED TO PUT IT IN WRITING. OR TATTOO IT ON HER ARM. AND YES, IF ONLY SHE WOULD TREAT Xow LIKE A DISLIKED CO-WORKER, THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I WOULD HOPE FOR. SOMEONE TO BE PROFESSIONAL WITH BUT AVOID WHENEVER POSSIBLE AND CERTAINLY NOT SHARE FEELINGS AND EMOTIONS WITH, EVEN IF ONLY ABOUT WORK.

Annab, I'm always honored when you pay a visit!

And finally, many of you shared the same thoughts about how there are no real consequences (other than a couple days of misery) about the line I keep drawing in the sand. In all honesty, you're right, I never gained the courage to actually consider leaving. So keeping that in mind, I'm going to at least work on getting it all in writing. And I just ordered a paper copy of MWD's book about recovering from infidelity. I hope W will consent to reading it. I read it on Kindle and I think it's very, very supportive of both WWS and LBS.
Thanks all, I'm still digesting all this.
Posted By: NYGal Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 06/29/17 10:59 AM
Just checking in. W saw our MC alone on Tuesday and said it was a good session. I haven't asked her for any specifics, just hoping that the counselor helped her see why being transparent is so important. But she still changed her password on phone and iPad at some point and hides both from me. I'm letting it go for now.
W just called to tell me that she has to email ow again about this initiative ow is working on with W's department. I'm glad she told me, as this is what I've asked for, and I thanked her and said that this will help as it's keeping with our agreement to tell me whenever there is any contact. But I gotta tell you all, this makes me very uneasy. It results from a little impropriety at our place of employment and the higher ups have asked ow to step in and help with teaching W's department about ethics and integrity. LOL!!!! We work at a crazy place. So I THINK W is trying to stay as far apart from this whole thing as she can, but I'm afraid they will be thrown together more and more.

It's not that I'm afraid they'll start their affair again. I think ow proved she really does prefer boys and all that entails... (eye roll on my part) but it's just the normalization of a relationship of any sort between them that bothers me. This ow was the homewrecker who cared nothing about our marriage and family and in particular my well-being. So for her to come in and normalize interaction with W just feels wrong. She doesn't get to interact with my W. And no, W can't leave her job. She's been here for something like 35 years and is an institution in her own right. Does that make sense? The bit about how I am disgusted by any attempt for them to normalize any interaction? It's my bottom line. It's not OK.

So I just have to figure out how to navigate this.

Meanwhile, W refused to write down and sign our NC with ow agreement. She says it just makes her a loser if she breaks it and gives me more reason to be mad... now there's some mixed up logic for you!!! But I sort of know what she's saying. She doesn't want to look weak or unable to keep to an agreement. And keep in mind, she's a people pleaser and always is so concerned about what people think about her, so she can't set a boundary with ow. I get that and I hate it about her. And I'm threatened by it.

I think the best thing for me is to keep GALing and be independent and strong and interesting, and not so predictable that she can take me for granted. If I make and keep a happy home and am not just a doormat that's got to help, right?
Posted By: cadence Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 06/29/17 11:55 AM
Quote:
It results from a little impropriety at our place of employment and the higher ups have asked ow to step in and help with teaching W's department about ethics and integrity.


Life is funny sometimes, isn't it?

Quote:
The bit about how I am disgusted by any attempt for them to normalize any interaction? It's my bottom line. It's not OK.


I'm not sure what you mean by this, since you say that they do have to work together. What is the boundary?

Quote:
I think the best thing for me is to keep GALing and be independent and strong and interesting, and not so predictable that she can take me for granted. If I make and keep a happy home and am not just a doormat that's got to help, right?


Right. Things seem okay right now, but there's always room for improvement.

My instinct is to focus on yourself and nourishing your own soul to the point that you feel strong enough to leave if you needed to.

Once you get to that point, where you're not afraid to lose her, I think that things will improve. There's a power imbalance now. We're not allowed to recommend other resources, but I've read a very interesting book in the past that addresses power in relationships and uses the terms "one-up" and "one-down." Basically, the one-up always has more power because they are focusing on themselves and their hobbies and are less afraid to walk away. Their attraction to the one-down is lesser than the one-down's attraction to the one-up.

I think letting W back relatively easily made you the one-down. So it's time to devote energy into yourself get closer to being the one-up!

Does that make sense?
Posted By: NYGal Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 06/30/17 03:33 AM
That makes sense cadence.
This morning W told me ow emailed her again... work stuff. But also put in there that she's going to Chicago today and when she'll be back so call her cell phone. W says she won't and that she'll just email her back with the pertinent work related stuff. So it's progress that she told me that. Still, I hate hate hate that they are corresponding and that sow is proposing phone calls and telling W about her travel plans. This is all supposed to end when sow submits a report on August 1. It's going to be a rough month.

Look out Chicagoans, you've got a homewrecker heading your way this weekend. Keep your children safe and your spouses close. It's aliiiiiiiiiiiiivvvvve!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted By: MoveFrwd Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 06/30/17 03:42 AM
Originally Posted By: NYGal
That makes sense cadence.
This morning W told me ow emailed her again... work stuff. But also put in there that she's going to Chicago today and when she'll be back so call her cell phone. W says she won't and that she'll just email her back with the pertinent work related stuff. So it's progress that she told me that. Still, I hate hate hate that they are corresponding and that sow is proposing phone calls and telling W about her travel plans. This is all supposed to end when sow submits a report on August 1. It's going to be a rough month.

Look out Chicagoans, you've got a homewrecker heading your way this weekend. Keep your children safe and your spouses close. It's aliiiiiiiiiiiiivvvvve!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I wonder at what point you will be able to let go of your anger towards OW. I get it, she knowingly had a relationship with a married woman. I have no interest in being around the AP. But it isnt like my ex or your W were innocent bystanders preyed on by the evilest people on the planet. The AP is just a regular person. Sure, they arent folks Id want to hang out with. And had I reconciled with my ex, Im sure that I would never want to hear or see from the AP again.

But ultimately, that anger is yours to own, and I fear it's getting in the way of your healing. To actually forgive W seems like you have to forgive OW as well. Coming on here and talking all kinds of smack about her shows all that pent up anger that you still have over the whole sitch that is eroding your chances at success.
Posted By: Sotto Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 06/30/17 04:05 AM
I agree about the 'feelings towards OW' area and think it is an important one to look at. Being reconciled with your W and your W still having contact with OW is a tough one for sure, and I can understand the triggers there.

For me, I rarely hear about OW and I'm grateful for that. I certainly wouldn't want to have to see her. So I guess there are still some feelings there. But in the main, I manage to take a more logical view of the situation. OW (in my case) had two A's on the trot, the second with XH, where she cheated on the first guy she had cheated with. I think it is pretty sad to live like that, and it must (mustn't it?) be hard to live with that too.

I don't think anyone (or many people) look back and think - Wow, I'm glad I cheated - even if they are in a happy relationship with their original AP, the R always started in 'that deceptive place'

I read once that demonising the AP helps us not have to deal with the difficult feelings we have towards our partner. It means we see them and ourselves as 'victims' - rather than letting all parties take responsibility for 'their part' including ourselves...

Anyway - just my thoughts - and hope there is something helpful in here for you.

Xx
Posted By: BluWave Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 06/30/17 06:11 AM
Kaizen & Sotto, I respectfully disagree with statements regarding OW. First off, I do not think she has to "let go" of her anger towards OW. Why? I don't see how that anger is holding her back. What is holding her back are the interactions her W continually has with OW, not her opinion of OW. Sounds like the OW is morally bankrupt and unfortunately in a position of power at work.

Second, I do not agree that "demonizing the AP helps us not have to deal with difficult feelings we have towards our partner." Personally, my feelings of anger/betrayal towards my H and towards the XOW are two separate things and not contingent upon the other. If you know my sitch, you know that OW posed at a "friend" for many years. I do not believe that my anger/disgust towards her in any form absolves my H from responsibility to our M. They are two different people and the parts that they played in the A were not 50-50, they were different. She pursued and he went along with it. Period. Even understanding that does not help me forgive him or dismiss his part in any way; he had poor boundaries and was vulnerable to an A (if not with her than it could have been with someone else).

Ultimately what matters to me is the part that my H played and the choices that HE made that hurt our M and family. In terms of peicing, the focus should be on our S and not the AP. That however does not mean that we are not entitled to "demonize" or place more of the "blame" on the AP, because quite frankly some of them are deserving of that! If NYGal's W has to continually interact with XOW (who is in a position of power and not respectful of boundaries) then that appears to be a very difficult sitch for NYGal and W. I sympathize completely! As I said before, I couldn't do it!

Blu
Posted By: annab74 Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 06/30/17 06:37 AM
I think it's completely normal and human to feel negatively towards the AP. That said, I don't think the AP is ever more to blame than the spouse. The AP may be morally bankrupt and/or predatory, but they were not the ones who vowed to be faithful to you. That doesn't absolve them from basic human decency and respect for others marriages and relationships, but there are always going to be selfish others with poor boundaries. The onus is on the spouse, as the one who took the vow, to keep their promises. IMHO, if one is playing the blame game, vows incur higher culpability.

That aside, although negative feelings might be normal and to some extent unavoidable, focusing on them does more harm then good. At minimum, you are giving way too much space in your head for someone who does not deserve to be there.
Posted By: NYGal Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 06/30/17 08:26 AM
Thank you Blu. I needed to hear that.
Posted By: NYGal Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work - 06/30/17 09:00 AM
Link to new thread.

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2749228&#Post2749228
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