Cadet forgive me - I hit 103 posts, pushing the reset now...
Previous threadhttp://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2693977&page=11Get comfortable. I saw few things in other thread today. I had some notes on a topic I had not shared yet...
Why your wife had an AffairSame caveat as the other stuff - I'm not an expert, only experienced. Notes from different sites, but did best to use real sites and not snake oil. Not everything below applies to every sitch. These are general reasons from statistical and research collections or from professional councilors. I want to state, and I want you to think about this, the stuff below is not about what
YOU did personally; you need to think about that yourself and it helps to write it out IMO. However, I have noted where I was guilty or other comments as applicable, hope my honesty gets your head moving. This information below is also specific to women's motivations for A's, but I guess some could apply to WH's (especially no. 1). This list is not all encompassing, just the highlights. Stuff could also apply to EA, but everything came from PA research. Items are numbered, but not for any reason. Only number 1 is the actual number 1 in just about every situation IMO. And, not all the terms are what the were, I shortened and/or used slang some for quick understanding.
Lastly, the human experience is a very complicated thing: biology, psychology, free will, religion, culture, etc. I tried to stick w/the basic human rationalization stuff. I do have a few random reasons below the main list, which I will segment. A's will not happen for one reason alone and all possible reasons are certainly not below.Also, these are not different types of affairs (that is another subject), these are motivational contributors. And while reading, please remember, at worst, you are a contributor and not a cause. So, you ready? Question again was why did your W have an A:
1. Choice: Because she chose to do it. Your WW maybe an a-hole, an addict, a narcissist, mentally ill, but she is an individual. Chances are she planted the seed for this long ago in her mind. W built up to it. You had no say, you had no control. WW made a deliberate choice to have an A. Yes, this is true even if she was "drunk/wasted" and claims that 1 nighter was a mistake, her choice.
2. Opportunity: something created it, it existed. Women work, women travel, you work, you travel, church, school, girls night, social media, any way away from you where opportunity could exist. (for me, WW is a high level business exec in a time demanding industry dominated by men, as much of corporate USA is. She is gorgeous, charismatic, intelligent and in a position of power. That is opportunity).
3. Emotional: lack of or unfulfilled emotional needs. Some examples would be appreciation, affirmation, feeling loved, feeling safe, feeling heard, allowed to nurture, able to rely on you - this is a whole other post. ( I think we are all falling into this somewhere).
4. W got picked-up: ties in w/ above so I put it next. Emotional needs were not being met by M. She knows a co-worker, church friend, single dad at soccer practice, whatever. Small comments drop. Opportunist dude, sees opening. Flirting begins. We all know what this looks like, we picked-up this very same woman years before the OM. We mirrored and provided what she needed. So, a new dude, the OM, started by seeing only her good, gave her compliments, nice gestures, stroked her ego. She open up, perhaps about you or she hides you, OM states she deserves only the best and takes her side. Its what men do when they like a woman, we all know how to do it, even if its only instinctual for some and not by intention. Women do not always realize this, especially when the man has game. H's W got picked up by OM. Next thing H knows is W is getting the d from another guy.
5. Nice guy: too nice, H becomes her btch. H gave more than W did to the M. H was way too fluffy. H "spoiled" W like some men were trained to do from outside sources and she became a brat. H gave all, W gave 25% of that. The M was one-sided, H tried to please her more and more at his own expense. W knows you are a nice guy, but being smothered was too much for her.
6. W Steamroller: aka, H looks like a puss or gave the appearance of being one. Seems similar to above, but not quite when we look at motivation. W was allowed to get away with everything. H may have been weak willed, indecisive, H may have learned this role from his parents M, or H may have not cared because letting W have her way meant H did not have to hear W complain. H found personal peace and comfort by letting W drive the M. H let W make the decisions. W became the man, then she lost affection & attraction for H as he gave the appearance of being weak.
7. The Fairytale: In the USA (I think anywhere Disney can be translated), girls are spoon-fed the story of prince charming, daddy's girl, hollywood, media, pure disney crack cocaine bllsht. As a result, the expectations of M are not realistic for some women. W cannot process the stress of H disappointing, family life, work, activities, suburbia, and not meeting her own expectations. W cheats and faces tremendous guilt for not living up to her life's purpose to do it all, then W blames H for failures and justifies A.
8. No boundaries: couple got married w/ complete trust and no rules. Believed marriage contract was enough to stop any A. Never discussed what is OK and what is not. Thought love was enough and neither would ever cheat. Violations begin as working late, business trips, girls nights, social media time, constant phone use, helping a friend, H was always at work, etc. As M unhappiness/dissatisfaction increased, so did these unchecked behaviors w/out enforcement. (I am so guilty here. On my end too. We both worked a bunch and would leave one to watch S4 when he was S2, then he became S3, then he became S4 -etc. We had no family anywhere near us and we were broke, come home tag in and the other would go).
9.Sex: if you are over 35 IMO, you might have heard the rumor that men need sex and women don't. Yes, some W's cheat w/ sex in mind. W and H may not be on the same page w/ ML. Are not as comfortable w/ experimenting. One may have a sex addiction. Sex stopped. One partner has a dysfunction. One partner was selfish, lacked romance, frigid, quick, uninterested, etc. (I own this too, my WW and I had ML until the last three weeks before S, and interesting stuff too, but I realized after S that W had been saying for a while that I expected ML and did nothing to romance my way into it. That was a true statement).
10. Slipping: the H got fat, lazy, lost ambition to achieve, had no goals, boring, angry, uninterested, unromantic, distant, etc. H lost excitement for life an settled in. W decides she wants more in a man than wings, bud light, and football.
11. Behavior Encouragement: media, entertainment, celebrities, friends, family members, movies, magazines, etc promote infidelity in subtle to blatant ways. Trend can be to state that marriage is limiting, people are free, live your live, live for now, do what you want, generally take a dump on the face of anything not for your own immediate gratification.(ahhhh, my WW's lovely BF's and their support of her current behavior. If WW only knew. I have not stated on DB posts yet, 3 months before my WW and I did S, her BF from hometown visited and very blatantly and clearly said she would f-me while my W was out of the room. True victory of morality in my life, I declined).
12. Money: W depends on father and then H for money her whole life. W may make more than H and H is jealous. W or H may have spending problems or money management problems. Unexpected things cause crisis. Money causes stress. W strays. ( I think this could contribute in reverse too, H could stray too. This reason was listed as number 1 reason marriages end. It out ranked infidelity as a reason for D).
13. Legit: earlier I said that "you are a contribution, not the cause" for W's A. Y In this case, WW may have a legit reason to escape through an A - so she can be saved. H may be physically abusive/mentally abusive to W, pets, or children. H could be a negligent father or M partner out having A's on his own (revenge move by W), or H could be an addict/alcoholic. (I do not think anyone here can accuse me of not owning my role as an addict in my M. I have pretty much stated it everywhere applicable and then some).
14. Safety: H is a coward. H does not stand up, backs down, gets run over in the interest of "no big deal" or "not worth it". H lets others take advantage of W, W & H, or children just to "keep the peace". Its not that W's want to see H get in a fist fight, but they do like a spine, and they will go find a man w/ one. (I think I was the complete antithesis of this, over protection...I began changing this long before separation when S4, then S3, said "Daddy, why do you have Hulk in your blood"? God bless him).
Segmented:
Read more on it if you want. These are all pretty interesting, but do get more complex than the above. I did see the below over and over again as reasons for cheating, so I chose to list - I chose the more prevalet ones.
Biological reasons:
1. Humans are not biologically monogamous. Men want to spread gene seed. Women want to receive strongest genes for protection and status. We are hardwired for many partners.
2. Strong survive, the weak get left behind.
3. Majority of animal kingdom does not partner for life. Humans are mixed on this.
Culture:
1. Not every culture accepts monogamy as natural or even reasonable. Ex. Papa New Guinea where some native cultures find multiple wives and forced marriage normal.
2. A's are natural and a part of keeping spouses faithful to love by allowing extra M encounters. Ex. in general French and Italian cultures do not have same response to A's as USA if the A's remain covered, but are accepted if not blatant socially.
3. Polyamory or open marriage is belief which includes multiple partners for love and not just sex.
4. Swingers. I better not have to explain this one.
Religion: not touching it. Find for yourself
Last,(drum roll for those waiting so patiently for MLC), Psychological disorders:
1. Depression: W could be in a legit medical psychotic depression and think excitement of an A will relieve it.
2. Addiction: all types can lead to A, enough said
3. Past abuse: remnant pain from severe psychological trauma. Different from MLC in that the behavior exhibited has been carried through entire life and is not on-set by middle age. History of A's and or promiscuity. Lack of deserve or worthiness for long term R's.
4. Psychosis: personality disorders, learning disabilities, etc can all lead to A's an other negative behavior if left untreated.
5. (you have been so patient) MLC was listed as a psychological disorder in every modern source I found (term originated in 1980 and was mostly applied to the H turning 50, buying a red sports car, and banging his 22 year old blonde secretary). There was no question in modern study of psych problems I found - MLC is a legit brain disorder. Sometime A is apart of it. Sometimes many A's are a part of it. Sometimes no A's are a part of it. The MLC application to woman is just now beginning to be researched by science, but suggesting so far that for women the age range can take place in a much wider gap than what median statistics show for men.
If you stuck it out, thanks, if you quick read or pieced it out, get back to work and stop being lazy w/ your fight for self. Educate your mind, I am trying to help for me and for all of us
Awesome and extremely helpful. Thank you CT!
Man, I wish I could answer that. I am not sure, but I do think one begets the other and I think the MLC is in the lead.
Forgot to ask: you say MLC can beget WW, but not the other way around (which makes sense). So in some cases WW can occur w/o MLC. In that case, what drives the WW? If not MLC, what might a WW be motivated by?
Well what happens to an LBS that is just done? as a for instance?
Forgot to ask: you say MLC can beget WW, but not the other way around (which makes sense). So in some cases WW can occur w/o MLC. In that case, what drives the WW? If not MLC, what might a WW be motivated by?
Well what happens to an LBS that is just done? as a for instance?
Cadet, I just found out today, my understanding of what the WW actually is was mistaken via Wonka. Me thinking the chief motivation to create WW was the A, but to be a WW must also include spew, anger, aggression. But all that could still be in an MLC from my reading, so.....trying to understand. Sandi invented the term, but has not checked in on the discussion I had w/ Wonka yet to my knowledge.
Anyway, your question w/ my current understanding of WW; I could see an nonMLC WW being motivated by item 13 above (where H was abusive or a danger of some type) and/or item 10 (where H checked out and anger built up over time w/in WW until she explodes and stays that way for a bit).
A WAS = Walkaway spouse is someone who has been telling you for years and years the same thing and just gets fed up waiting for you to change so they walk away.
This comes from MWD in the DB/DR book.
Sandi uses WW = Wayward Wife, which could be the same as above however they use an affair to escape the current relationship.
MLC = Mid Life Crisis, could also have the same symptoms and may or may not involve an affair.
Although usually their is an affair, it could also be an imaginary one that is only in someones head.
It is also involves a seriously lengthy period of TIME.
I tend to use all these terms fairly synonymously, and to be honest their is really little difference in all of them, IMHO.
My basic point with my post is that it is not unusual for a few basic scenarios to occur.
One crisis in one spouse normally starts a crisis in the LBS.
And the LBS very many times turns into a WAS given enough passage of TIME.
I'm a father acquiescing relationship troubles (FART). It stinks to be in my situation.
Wed was NC all day. Thur I experimented w/ a polite hello email which I had not made 1st contact in a long time; received complaining tension stress blah blah me monster stuff, as I expected. Day ended w/ small email exchange pertaining to banking & shared debts. I was small talk validating, but threw in a tiny emotional tickler stating I had appreciated something she had done - again, got the response I expected which was a "wow, that was really nice to read, you are so very welcome" followed by smiley face.
She went to S4's school last night for Kinder orientation and sent me a report about this morning. It was so long, involved and filled w/ so many decision points requiring my shared input I just called her out of easiness. Me calling her is not something I have done in months either. I decided I would speak w/ her using subtle flirting techniques and have no idea why the hell I chose to do that, I did choose to do it as before I called I thought about it. Anyway, it worked on her and she was bubbly and cheerful, responsive and flirty back. After I moved through all of the decisions she engaged conversation and I listened for about two minutes, politely cut it off at natural break in her speech, said I had to go.
When it was all over I did not feel good nor did I feel bad. Did not feel like I controlled each situation, but all three exchanges went as I figured. I am not in an apathy zone right now - just feeling detached, would say my behavior did not match detachment, but it was planned on my end. Checking myself is the only thing I can think of as to why after weeks of DIM validation and 180's into just the facts communication into complete apathy emotions on my end, followed by 1st full day of NC.No reason to speak w/ her tomorrow. Looking fwd to an NC. Was I unintentionally being an a-hole and messing w/ her head? Was I pulse checking her? Anyone else done something like this?
Seems to me I made a plan w/ no usable goal other than to see what would happen by doing what I did.
Was I unintentionally being an a-hole and messing w/ her head? Was I pulse checking her? Anyone else done something like this?
Seems to me I made a plan w/ no usable goal other than to see what would happen by doing what I did.
CT1118,
I did something similar a couple of days ago, although I had an overt purpose behind it. But, in answer to your question, I think the LBSs finally figure-out the WWs and realize we can toy (or mess) with them just like they messed with us. It feels good to pull their strings and watching their reactions play-out just as expected.
Mind you, I'm not saying it's good to do that, it's just that once you have the keys to the car sometimes you feel driving it.
In my case my WW was trying to get some money so I toyed with her until I was ready for the knock-out punch. I felt like she should know better than to try to lure me in with her bullsh*t so I messed with her. And, <blush> I did have some fun with it as well.
But, maybe you had other motives. Dunno.
A WAS = Walkaway spouse is someone who has been telling you for years and years the same thing and just gets fed up waiting for you to change so they walk away.
This comes from MWD in the DB/DR book.
Sandi uses WW = Wayward Wife, which could be the same as above however they use an affair to escape the current relationship.
MLC = Mid Life Crisis, could also have the same symptoms and may or may not involve an affair.
Although usually their is an affair, it could also be an imaginary one that is only in someones head.
It is also involves a seriously lengthy period of TIME.
I tend to use all these terms fairly synonymously, and to be honest their is really little difference in all of them, IMHO.
My basic point with my post is that it is not unusual for a few basic scenarios to occur.
One crisis in one spouse normally starts a crisis in the LBS.
And the LBS very many times turns into a WAS given enough passage of TIME.
Thanks Cadet. Officially back to my initial understanding of all concepts.
I GAL every other Friday night w/ some people from work. We go to a brew pub. I would like to do it more often, but try my best not to expose myself to too much alcohol these days, could easily take me to a bad spot emotionally.
Anyway, this guy I take to the gym w/ me is aware my spouse and I are separated, but I never told him why the S happened and he never asked - which is cool as sht of him. He will ask sometimes how I am holding up sometimes and last night he asked how her and I were talking these days. Told him about me being DIM, told him how that led to her telling me I was business like w/ her (he was w/ me in the gym, so he knew I took a call from her), told him about NC on Wed, etc. I was just relaying since he asked, not looking for advice.
Him not knowing she is in an A may have changed what he said to me or not, I don't know. He said "hey brother, I don't want to offend you, but have you ever considered that she is trying to reach out to you? The tings you told me she did and the way she spoke to you, she is clearly reaching out and you are clearly shutting that down. Is that what you want to be doing?" I just responded by saying "If her and I did not have a son, if her and I did not have such a long history, I would have been gone long ago and we would not even be discussing this. And I know from past experience that if I had done that, she would have come back w/in a brief period of time. But we do have a son, we do have shared debts to settle, we do have a long history. So I am doing the best I can to mimic being gone, w/out being able to be gone." Then some more people showed up and we dropped it before I could hear his response.
Got up this morning, had my hair cut, went and bought a couple shirts, spoke to some strangers along the way. Now trying to decide what to eat for lunch, which is really breakfast. Not sure about you all, but the initial loss of appetite when all the sht went down has stuck around. My pants fit better though.
Get my son tonight and all day tomorrow, will be great.
WW came over tonight around 6 to drop off S4. They came in ans as usual I acknowledged her w/ a 'hey' and then immediately bent down to be at eye level w/ S4 - hug, kiss, listen to what he has to say. WW has some of S4's things in her hands, I make no effort to assist and she sets them on the kitchen half wall. S4 ran off and as the last time I saw he he vomited all over my place for 4 hours (and I mean everywhere) it seemed prudent to ask WW about his health. I was making direct eye contact and standing up straight with hands on hips, always do during drop off - its neutral body language.
Her answer was pretty matter of fact, but while she was speaking she saw 3 syringes by my microwave and excitedly says "J. Chr., have you moved onto the hard sht!?" I stared at her for a few seconds, then very directly and calmly said, "In couple of days I will be 6 months clean of my narcotics addiction. Those syringes are filled with dental bleach as I have put down payments to have my teeth repaired (I broke out 3 teeth at age 21 while I was high and she was w/ me at the time). I told you that I was done with drug addiction and I meant it." Well, a knife could have cut the air of her embarrassment, but I did understand her surprise as I abused many different substances for a very long time.
Anyway, she apologized and then her face lit up in an emotionally proud smile and she told me how great that was. She also said how happy she was for me that I was having my teeth fixed. She began speaking about other things. As she leaned her weight on the her elbows and placed them on the kitchen divider I knew she intended to speak for a bit. I made a deliberate decision to mimic her body language, which is a subtle projection technique to apply w/ women when you want to show you are listening and want them to feel comfortable (can't be blatant but try it, see what happens, works on men in the office too, but there you take a position of agreement while you are verbally disagreeing). She was speaking about her family in a "fill you in way" and then she noticed my haircut and told me how much she liked it, moved onto comments about how clean my place was and how much she liked the shirt I was wearing - all this expressed at different points as she interrupted her own story to say them. Did my mimicry induce that? Not sure, but like I said, its one technique when you want to subtly stimulate results from people.I did go off DB script by asking some things about them (been a long time since I've seen them), but I was aware of it, allowed myself to do it, and was cool and neutral when I did it.
I do not usually have S4 on Saturdays, but she asked last Mon if I would take him for the night, clearly from my story I had agreed. After the banter about her family she brought up his schedule. I changed my posture back to the upright arms on side, the schedule talk usual gets serious and I was ready for it. I always have s4 on Sundays and Mondays, but said I wanted her to take him Monday night. Mondays have historically been an OM day for her. I said it on purpose, wanted to see what would happen. She put up a brief defense of that not being her night, but I said "Saturday nights are not usually mine. We have a schedule that is 4 nights on, 3 off and it flips every other Friday (Friday nights are the monthly flip to even it 2 on 2 off). You asked for a Sat night and I agreed, you also asked for next Sat and I agreed. So yes, I want you to take him Monday and then after next Sat is gone, we will go back to the agreed schedule". She continued with some bs about concern for s4 and keeping his schedule and while she was far from yelling,but she was frustrated - I could tell she was scrambling as what I said to her was point blank and true. My reply " we have him on a schedule that he is used to, tonight is what is taking it off track".
At this moment s4 came out of his room where he had been gathering toys for about 10 minutes. WW said good bye, kiss, etc. She postured like a hug was aimed at me, I switched back to leaning on the counter and said "talk to you later" Can't recall what she said, but instead of walking out she let go of the open door she changed subject and began talking to me again for a couple minutes. Then she did another s4 goodbye round and this time I put posture back to the upright. She looked again like she wanted me to approach for a hug, I could have and it would have been received, we were only about 4 feet apart. I just bent my right arm and held my hand up flat and said "see you later, have a good night" She left.
I went into this scenario with detachment feelings, when she left I felt like I had bested the time. I thought in my head "she will text, she walked out wanting to say more" Five minutes after leaving, phone make the got a text sound. Walking over to check accuracy, it rings - WW. I answered like it was a work call (I quit letting her know I knew she was calling a number of months ago by answering w/ my work greeting, as if I changed her specific ring and its just another call). "I'm sorry I was such a btch about the schedule thing, I mean I don't know if you thought I was being a btch and I don't know why I acted that way, its not fair to you and you were right. I also...well, you look really good, like you are really changing yourself. You're in shape again, you're sober. I mean, you look happy and you are taking care of yourself. It really great, I think its great."
Textbook DB Wonka style validation responses from me during the call. Feel good for the exchange, but "believe nothing they say and 50% of what they do" Still way to early in the game to do a touchdown dance, but I think I moved the ball forward a yard or two. Ended call, went back to s4 and making him dinner. Looking forward to taking him to the beach in the morning, maybe a nap, then some time at the pool. S4 is awesome.
Man, it sounds like you've got this thing (DB) wired. Seems like you're in a really stable place, in terms knowing who you are and what you want.
Really make me wonder if you shouldn't really just move on. See other people. What's the worst thing that can happen? You find someone who is more wonderful than who your W once was....
Man, it sounds like you've got this thing (DB) wired. Seems like you're in a really stable place, in terms knowing who you are and what you want.
Really make me wonder if you shouldn't really just move on. See other people. What's the worst thing that can happen? You find someone who is more wonderful than who your W once was....
I'm not. I'm trying to be. It was only two days ago I was talking about my anger and how I flip through emotions. I'm better than I was and I'm not going to give WW anything for free again until if/when she shows me something.
I don't want to move on in terms of other women, which is the way I took your statement. I'm here to help myself be stronger and if by doing so my WW pulls her head from her ass and she and I can piece then that is what I am open too. My story above, yeah I held it together and stuck to my self, and yes I managed to hit a secondary objective of getting her to question herself, but looking at her and her body language wanting to embrace me and not doing it. That sht is hard man. I wanted to, I wanted to grab her, hold her, kiss her and tell her all will be better just come home.
But I won't, because what I have realized I want more is to be a good man for myself. To show self respect in front of my son, to her, and to my own future self so I that spend fewer and fewer nights lying awake in confusion. That I want more, so that is the objective. I can also do what little I have with some DB tactics to try and wake her the process, I will. For me though, the DB is all about you feeling better for you.
ForGump, I got to be honest w/ you, I know in your heart you were supporting me, telling me I am doing a great job, and validating my strength. However, your comment about me moving on has been messing w/ me all morning. Its not your fault, but I have been fairly explicit about that question causing me struggle. I am choosing to work the DB program and come here b/c I believe it is the best course of action to improve the self - but also b/c a secondary result is a possible reconciliation w/ my WW. So I know you meant well, and you were correct about me knowing what I want, but I am just not as stable as I wish to be. Until I can get through one day w/out being troubled by my own apathy, maintain a feeling of loving detachment for 24 hours, or managing to not think about her OM's voice shrieking as I disconnect his shoulder, I am not as stable as I want to be. Only one of those emotions is desirable and the only one I intend to continue acting upon, obviously the loving detachment. Primarily I want two things here: 1. To be a man I can respect who is healthy and an upstanding example to all. 2. That I achieve number 1 and am able to be find strength of self in the face of whatever path my WW chooses for her journey. I have come a long way, but still don't see the end of the road.
Many here have praised my researched approach to my sitch and I am really glad for it. I hope it will help others to be able to help me if I expand as to why I am this way. I have three personality conditions which have affected me my entire life, I have never realized how these held me back (or sometimes helped) until this new era of me, and not one of them are necessarily qualities that society embraces:
1. I am painfully introverted. Do not confuse this w/ lack of confidence. Nature v. Nurture I am not sure. I was physically and emotionally abused for 10 years by my mother. My mother was her own chaos kid w/ unresolved childhood issues and she took these out on my father, my brother, and me. I caught the worst. Brother is 10 yrs older and left as soon as he was 17. My father stayed at work constantly to avoid her and eventually left my mother (they did reconcile 5 yrs later and are still together). I was alone w/ a very angry soul. As well, a relative molested me from age 5-10 (he was only 4 years older so, thankfully is was left at touching). This led to a response from me that if I remained locked in my own mind and gave the world nothing emotionally, they could not know my hurt. Funny thing about introverts is they make great leaders and speakers. Their ability to detach from emotions projected by others allows them to not really care much for how the world interprets their actions. I am renowned in my profession for my leadership and I regularly speak to audiences of 50-300 people and feel absolutely nothing in terms of nerves about it. I do however recoil when its over and people want to speak w/ me one on one - Ironic to say the least.
2. I am an INTP personality on the Briggs Meiers personality test. 3% of the human population are rated this way. You can look it up if you want, but it generally comes down to introverted, daydreaming, thinkers who see patterns in the world, struggle to understand things others find important/funny/disturbing/etc, and have little comprehension of emotional issues. This explains why my humor comes off as dark, why I can say things directly which may sound harsh, and why I am successful in my professional life - INTP's tend to think in ways which do not follow the rules and they tend to be very calm in very chaotic situations.
3. I am type II Inattentive ADHD. This is not the kid in class who can't sit still. The hyperactivity is in the mind, it never ends. Type II ADHD is a learning disability and tends to not be diagnosed in people until they get older and start to wonder why the coping mechanisms they have used their entire life begin to fail them - I was diagnosed at 41, this past June. People w/ this condition are predisposed to divorce, drug addiction, introversion, lack of empathy, misunderstanding of humor, a propensity for frustrated anger, and many other things which make mainstream society very difficult to navigate. It can make people look lazy, as they are unable to perform "normal" tasks like shopping, basic conversation, laundry, or paying bills. They cannot do these b/c the importance of such tasks is not able to be understood. Generally, deep emotion is only expressed when something one feels passionate about shows itself - people, things, places. I always knew I was different, but not always why. I am now on medication for it and the distracting noise in my head is gone when meds work. I am able to think, feel, and show emotion now like I have always imagined others do, but only while on the meds. The one superpower of type II ADHD - I can hyper-focus on a subject or task which interests me. Results in a complete sacrifice of time dedicated solely towards a particular understanding until one feels the understanding is being achieved. Not a great trait when a wife wants your empathy or attention. As well, I do not want to be on meds my hole life, so am trying hard to learn mechanical skills.
So, when one grows up not knowing why, but being aware that they do not view, understand, or approach the world in ways that most of society does, they either fall out and lose or they find ways to cope and make it. My way was always to turn to science and research for answers. I did this w/ people and relationships while in college in my young 20's. I studied how to approach women, how to speak with women in ways to get positive results, how act in business settings, how to project power with body language, how to negotiate, how to mediate, etc., etc. Then I went into life and experimented. In my M, I had quit using things which worked to keep me well (W was aware of my issues known at time and I hers), and when my son was born two months premature and my wife almost died in the process, I fell way too far back into myself, went back to drugs and alcohol, I did all this w/ a wife who is broken in her own way, and the rest is history.
Its pretty fascinating how predictable all of us are. Yeah, we are individuals to some level, but most of the time our behavior can be predicted down to a few reasonable choices. If you don't believe me, read about Game Theory, Occam's Razor, or personality descriptions by Freud. Not academic?: in short, the ability of science to predict our human behavior is why Amazon has a very high chance of know what you might want to buy, why economists can predict future social behavior based upon market shifts, and why the "old guard" here in the forums can tell others things are "script" behavior. All of us are predictable to a certain statistical level, accept that or not its true.
And thus, I use this approach in my separated, affair/addiction scarred marriage to try and make sense of me and of my WW. Believe me, I did my research - MWD and her approach, combined w/ advice of the "old guards" here seemed entire logical to my head and I came here as opposed to million other options I had. Sounds pretty cold and disingenuous, but I assure you, it is not. This is the approach I must use to feel the world. The medicine helps me experience things in a way I am not used to. I come here and rely on all of you to bounce stuff back to me. I learn every time. I thank all of you for it. The most selfish thing I have right now, is that by bleeding honesty all over the place, you all are better equipped to help me and to understand perspective when I wish to help you. A year ago, my lack of empathy would have not let me be here, or I would have been a nightmare for many. I am glad the arms of this place were open and that I have been able to accept the nurturing.
Let me try to help with the words,
Instead of using "move on" try the words "moving forward".
I like to think that is what you must do.
With your scientific approach keep moving forward and you will get to the desired spot.
Hope that helps.
Very interesting, CT. When you made the following statement in your first thread, I started to respond, but I think I left it alone.
I had never known, but when I read some psychology studies of women married to men who did not know the men had ADHD they all ended with the likelihood of an affair out of desperation. I sent that to my wife and she said it was identical to her experience.
I had been M for many years (even had a grandchild) when watching a tv commercial about attention deficient, my H said those were like the images flashing in his mind since he was five yrs old. Not only was he never diagnosed, but as far as I know, never discussed it with his parents or anyone.
It's not like you've described yourself, b/c he had a terrible time focusing and memorizing. He would not study for tests, etc. It would drive me crazy b/c I could not understand why he wouldn't at least, try to study. It takes him forever to answer a simple question I ask.....but I've never seen him do this with other people. It used to infuriate me. He would not discuss his feelings, nor engage with me about anything that required his expressions of his feelings. Needless to say, I was the complete opposite. So, my emotional needs were not met b/c I needed emotional intimacy. I wanted the intimate pillow talk.
Anyway, it just caught my attention when you said the above about W's turning to affairs in desperation.
2. I am an INTP personality on the Briggs Meiers personality test.
INTJ here with (some believe) a touch of Aspergers WW is ENFP - the so called "perfect match". Funny thing is that I found this out right around when she says she had decided to WAW. I wondered at the time why she wasn't as thrilled about it as I was.
Feel free to bleed all the honesty you want - you've been doing it with respect.
CT. No time today. Read it - thanks for sharing (sorry for the w@nky phrase) but I mean it.
I know MB. I am "Driver Pioneer". Don't know the acronym. But am very impressed with your speaking. I do the same. But am not into introverted at the end. Used to be nervous on the speaking but no more.
You sound to be cycling again. Are you? If you are, what would you tell me to do. You know the game - you are far more impressive than I am at it. Get back into the game IF you are cycling.
Mate. Keep checking on you. I am here. I am listening - I will help where I can.
Surfer.
I will re-read tomorrow. I takes me time to digest info. and the sun goes down earlier here so Surf is no longer up! Will be tomorrow though - best wash the mankini
. Oh dear it wouldn't be a pretty sight.....
Surfer.
By the way. High on certain spectrums such as lack of empathy etc can be high on autism spectrums (men generally border high as opposed to women) it can also border high on social (rather than 'mental illness') psycothapy spectrums. Watched a programme and read a book (part of - driver pioneers don't tend to read instruction manuals - they skim and get the jist). So my point is this. GreT leaders and achievers follow those spectrums. Anything YOU feel is lacking, you can work on MB tells you that - as you know.
Focus. That's what you are incredible at. Just pick the focus. Then DO IT.
Keep moving chap!
All the best.
Surfer.
Thank you all. I will do my best to come back to what everyone said. More immediate concern - Surfer called me out about cycling..."are you?"
Why yes Surfer I am.
On way out of beach today, s4 wanted food at a place on this road that "we" used to go to as a family. I pulled in and we were walking up. Place was packed, but who is right at big glass windo in front - WW and OM. Thank Crst my son did not see. Thank a whole lot more than god above that I did not burn the earth.
I was willing to put that down, but then tonight, my son was asking questions about whatever, dinosaurs, my ropes, etc. kid nonsense, and then he asks me if his mommy ran away.
So yeah, it is taking everything I got not to call her and tell her to eat a bowl of dks, that I want a D, and to never speak to me again. I was very specific in asking her to not let OM interfere w/ our s4's life. Yeah, she could not have known where I was or where I had plans w/ our son on my day, but still....taking the OM to a place we went to as a family just a few months ago. I am w/ my son, all is safe.
CT, reading this made me feel sick.
I feel for you, this is a nightmare come true.
I know we all talk about moving forward and dealing but something like this would just destroy me right now no matter how much I think I am in control.
I wish there was something I could say to make you feel better CT but I just feel for you and your S4. I hope the pain passes and you can feel better.
This is so shlt.
CT1118, that's just pure pain right there. I'm sorry to hear about it.
I'm at the beach myself w/ my S, having a great time (D is away on a trip). I have zero clue what my W is doing but when I'm not busy my imagination takes off and I just want to club my own brain w/ a 2x4. Every place we go to reminds me of coming here as a family. And makes me indignant that my W is doing to my S.
WTF can I do. L foot in front of R, R in front of L.
The longer I DB, the more I realize the W I thought I loved isn't there any more, and the more I realize that, the more I realize I need to move. Doesn't make sense to keep the door open.
CT
Read this first thing today. I had to calm myself down after reading this. Woo saaaah....
Look, it's sh!t. I totally get it. But you are incredibly strong. I can see it in how you get all of this. You are just the nuts when it comes to protecting your S. He is the luckiest boy to have you Protecting and Caring for him. Amazing. He will love you so much and as he grows and understands what you have done.......and he will, understand, he is already working it out in his little head. Bless him.
Right. Back to the plan. You know the drill. Distance, detach. Cut the feelings that hurt. No instigating R talks. You know.......
Keep getting your thoughts down on here. Get those negative feelings out. Help others. It will help you too.
Surfer.
I can only say that this is not unusual, they go to places that they know, that they have happy memories of.
So she went to a place that her son also remembers.
Yes stay detached.
She is depressed and looking for happiness by going up lots of cheesless tunnels searching for it.
She will not find it in this search,
she is looking in all the wrong places.
You did not break her and can not fix her.
Continue to give her space.
Cadet. Legendary. No waffle just clear direction.
I can only say that this is not unusual, they go to places that they know, that they have happy memories of.
So she went to a place that her son also remembers.
Yes stay detached.
She is depressed and looking for happiness by going up lots of cheesless tunnels searching for it.
She will not find it in this search,
she is looking in all the wrong places.
You did not break her and can not fix her.
Continue to give her space.
Thanks everyone. Thanks Cadet. I lost my head yesterday. I am still shaking from it, for real, my hand are shaking and I barely slept. There is one thing I learned in this. Anger means I still feel something. After taking my s4 to daycare and while driving to work I asked myself "do I still want to be married to this person?" I answered yes and then asked myself why.
The why is that her and I understand where and what the other came from. We share a very similar struggle from very similar pain. We are a reflection in this way. We share the same life values and viewpoints. We have a very long history. We want similar life goals. We are opposite in ways that one is able to help the other through themselves. We know each other so very well. We are on the same page in terms of what we want our son to know about life and what to teach him. We were at one time a family.
I know confronting her w/ what happened yesterday will not change anything. I know she is hurting and this chump is a way for her to postpone thinking about her pain. I understand that she is not able to realize what she is doing to her child. I understand she is not able to fathom the anger in blood. I know I am strong enough to keep myself in check and to continue in my growth. Replay - I know why its called replay. What I have never read about replay though, it puts the patient spouse on a replay too.
Thanks again everyone.
What I have never read about replay though, it puts the patient spouse on a replay too.
Of course the crisis of one spouse starts the LBS into crisis too.
Part of the script.
The difference is the LBS confronts the crisis and does not try to avoid it.
Take it head on and head right through it.
No avoidance.
Thats why we keep moving forward.
CT1118 - sorry I wasn't here for you. Crap. It must have been the weekend for encounters of the OM type.
Good on you for taking the high road and sticking to the plan. As you know I too know the urge to "do something" to "strike back". People who haven't been in our shoes have no clue on what sort of strength it takes to stand tall while having crap poured all over you.
I went into this scenario with detachment feelings, when she left I felt like I had bested the time. I thought in my head "she will text, she walked out wanting to say more" Five minutes after leaving, phone make the got a text sound. Walking over to check accuracy, it rings - WW. I answered like it was a work call (I quit letting her know I knew she was calling a number of months ago by answering w/ my work greeting, as if I changed her specific ring and its just another call). "I'm sorry I was such a btch about the schedule thing, I mean I don't know if you thought I was being a btch and I don't know why I acted that way, its not fair to you and you were right. I also...well, you look really good, like you are really changing yourself. You're in shape again, you're sober. I mean, you look happy and you are taking care of yourself. It really great, I think its great."
Thank you all again. Your support is really invaluable.
Sandi - 2 things
1. Above is a whistle emoji. I am wondering what it means? Rather than speculate, thought it better to ask.
2. You said this of your H: "It's not like you've described yourself, b/c he had a terrible time focusing and memorizing. He would not study for tests, etc. It would drive me crazy b/c I could not understand why he wouldn't at least, try to study. It takes him forever to answer a simple question I ask.....but I've never seen him do this with other people. It used to infuriate me. He would not discuss his feelings, nor engage with me about anything that required his expressions of his feelings. Needless to say, I was the complete opposite. So, my emotional needs were not met b/c I needed emotional intimacy. I wanted the intimate pillow talk.
Anyway, it just caught my attention when you said the above about W's turning to affairs in desperation."
That is exactly right.I left all of that out of my description, but I am the same way by nature, but I am trying to better my way through once I learned how difficult it makes me to be around. As you can imaging, me reading about traits of ADHD was like reading a book written about me; then reading the traits of how women respond to men w/ ADHD and having my WW say it was exactly like that for her was devastating. But, all one can do it get up and try again in a way that works.
1. Above is a whistle emoji. I am wondering what it means?
Rather than speculate, thought it better to ask.
There was a poster here named Starsky/Puppy Dog Tails and he used to rate peoples posts with whistles,
5 whistles was very rare.
So Sandi has given you a rating, Congrats!
Well sir, I bow in respectful appreciation to you and Sandi alike. Now I have a benchmark to raise.
Thank you
On way out of beach today, s4 wanted food at a place on this road that "we" used to go to as a family. I pulled in and we were walking up. Place was packed, but who is right at big glass windo in front - WW and OM. Thank Crst my son did not see. Thank a whole lot more than god above that I did not burn the earth.
I was willing to put that down, but then tonight, my son was asking questions about whatever, dinosaurs, my ropes, etc. kid nonsense, and then he asks me if his mommy ran away.
It really is selfish and disgusting what these broads do, isn't it? These bums with them deserve to get their asses whupped.
Proud of you brother. Keep it up. We are the strength for our children as our spouses wallow in the mess they have created.
It really is selfish and disgusting what these broads do, isn't it? These bums with them deserve to get their asses whupped.
Proud of you brother. Keep it up. We are the strength for our children as our spouses wallow in the mess they have created.
Hell, with my past couple days I'll second this! Well said RSG!
CT, keep at it man. Love the analytical approach you're following and I'm catching up with it all after my week away from this place. You are moving in the right direction!
NC yesterday, other than the almost catastrophic encounter (while it would have damaged my son, which is why I left, it would have been interesting to see her face).
Incoming contact today:
an email from WW around 8 am, questions about s4 and weekend, as well as s4's kindergarten assessment happening today - ignored.
email around 9 am about scheduling s4 drop off's- ignored
Phone call at 930 - I took it. WW does not ask why I am not responding to emails anymore, now its like "I sent you a couple emails this morning. If you let me know about them when you have time." Me: "I am not in my office and the days is very busy, I will look when I get back, but right now I have to go" Done.
1000 - I Email reply to schedule just wrote "this works". WW responds with thank you and a meme about tacos. I do not reply.
1015 - I email reply to question about weekend and the assessment. I respond with "please let me know how the assessment goes". I include a picture taken of s4 and I yesterday at the beach (I had a stranger to take it as I have few non-selfie pics of s4 and I). Not usually recommended to share photos, but I wanted her to see I was at the beach where her and OM were and subtly make the statement that its my place for my son. WW replies right away says "great picture, you are really getting buff" (shirt was off in photo). I do not respond.
Phone call again at 1130 - I took it thinking it was about school. WW said two things about school, then wanted to talk, I listened for about 2 minutes, waited for break in her talking, then said I had to go. Then she began singing a song she likes. I gave a slight laugh which was genuine and said "OK, i do have to go"
Phone call 130 - tells me about the assessment. I responded to a few questions which required me to on s4's future, I asked a few where I needed clarification. WW was very cheery. She then brought up how broke she is - I said I had to go. I have no desire to hear about her finances.
Started the day angry, moved to apathy, now back in detached feeling. Did not really feel any emotion about the above while it was happening. I did laugh at the singing, but was caught off guard by how spontaneously odd it was. Wondered if by writing the above out loud if it would make me feel something so that was my motivation. Nope. Still detached, as if I were talking to a co-worker or something.
CT,
Like cadet says "keep moving forward".
You know how to do that!
Surfer.
CT - good on the detaching. Drop the rope again. You know how to do it. You are far better than most at getting this.
Keep it up. Stop the cycle.
Great Dad, Great Man! Proud of you Son! Soooo much faith in you. Get yours faith in you back, you seem to be doing it.
We are all watching out for you. I hope you see this.
Surfer.
CT1118-- thanks for all you posted. As I read all your pain, the voice in my head said, "he should let her go." In other words D. But I don't see your W the way you see your W. I see her the way I see my W. We have different situations but your situation is a mirror for me.
You've been at this for about 6 months. I wonder if/when your feelings will shift about giving up on your W. I think it all hurts so much because you haven't given up on her. DB-ing is to not give up.
Also, as I wrote elsewhere, I think NC and ignoring, etc. isn't really good DB-ing. I say that knowing that that's what I try to do some times. I mean you gotta do NC some times to just fcking survive a day emotionally. But good DB-ing is to really not care either way. Treat your W like a good friend. (Right? Still trying to sort this out in my head).
ForGump
I was the same. Didn't get it for what seemed like forever. I do now. I feel detached. Very happy. That is detached. Perhaps think of it like reattaching. But to you, your core. Who you were and always have been before your W became the emotional vampire. Just stop letting her suck you dry!!! Always good to end with a smile
Keep on trucking man.
You did pretty well. It seems like the old lady is getting more and more interested in you. But it seems like baby steps. My W hasn't sent me anything like a meme or something to try to induce a laugh...
You're doing a good job of being mysterious as well. She obviously wants your time and is interested in what you're doing, but it may be that she's just a little bored. I'm not really certain as to her status
I honestly can't say much more. I'd keep at it for a bit....
Great Dad, Great Man! Proud of you Son! Soooo much faith in you.
You know it Surfer, and thanks.Best sentence I have read all day.
You've been at this for about 6 months. I wonder if/when your feelings will shift about giving up on your W. I think it all hurts so much because you haven't given up on her. DB-ing is to not give up.
ForGump, Actually I've only been at the DB thing for 1.5 months (registered 7/5/16). I was on her lies for the 4 or so before that. But my instincts did serve me well to some degree as I knew from the start I had to fix me. I want to clarify a couple things though: I have no intention of giving up on my WW; I do not view this as waiting, this is me accepting that I have a choice. It behooves my time right now to build the self - if either WW or someone else come into the picture one day, I will be a better person from this experience. Anger may be seem like hurting, but I always viewed it more like a heightened mix of frustration & misunderstanding. On the up side though, I feel like yesterday helped in my anger control - I was so mad it exhausted me physically and mentally. I have really felt it move along today in a way I haven't before and I hope it sticks. Sandi did a pretty tactical move to help me w/ this - she posted a quote of something I said from the night before the restaurant incident that she approved of. It reminded me that I was making progress.
You did pretty well. It seems like the old lady is getting more and more interested in you. But it seems like baby steps. My W hasn't sent me anything like a meme or something to try to induce a laugh...
You're doing a good job of being mysterious as well. She obviously wants your time and is interested in what you're doing, but it may be that she's just a little bored. I'm not really certain as to her status
Mystery while showing that I don't need her is the objective right now. And I don't need her, I do want her, but those are two different things. And I don't want her the way she is...not sure if you recall a post I put up a while about knowing my W was floating around somewhere in the prison of the WW? Anyway, I have successfully made that W bang on the glass and wave once or twice. If, like I said to ForGump, I can get my anger down (or gone b/c is a road block to detaching) I will be even more capable of bettering myself than I am today.
Baby steps indeed sir.
I do not view this as waiting, this is me accepting that I have a choice. It behooves my time right now to build the self - if either WW or someone else come into the picture one day, I will be a better person from this experience.
This is excellent. I need to meditate on this.
CT,
Glad to see you are in a much better place then yesterday. You are doing the best you can keep it up man.
Something you just said I think about a lot. The whole WANT and NEED thing.
The same as you I WANT my W I certainly don't need her. To be totally honest I am much better of in all aspects of my life other then what I want.
It just goes to show what you think is important is nothing when you have been taking what is truly important for granted.
I now have more money, more time, no stress about providing for my family. But I would trade it all in a second to go back to how it was.
This is one of my biggest indicators to me thinking my W is just done. She had taken a massive drop in standard of living to leave. Obviously I wouldn't want her just to stay because it's easy but the fact she is willing to put herself in a tiny unit over our family home and put herself into a hard place financially struggling week to week it kills me.
And your post about need reminded me of what my W said when she hit me with the bomb drop the night she left. She said "I don't NEED you anymore" never really thought much about it but in ever needed her I wanted her. For her to say that make me think she stayed around for quite a while because she felt she needed me.
Anyway not trying to hijack just thoughts about the whole want and need situation in most cases the truth is the WW needs the LBH and LBH doesn't need the WW. Yet here we are trying to get back the person who ripped out heart out and ate it for breakfast. Humans are strange.
Reading Coconut's thread a few minutes ago reminded me of the pain I had. Reading albac's statement above reminded me of my 'need' to show it. For the first 2 months after S, the WW and I would go out still - dates. R would come up, she would cry which led to me crying. Two adults crying in a fine restaurant telling themselves how deeply they loved each other, but acknowledging how deeply painful that love became. This was painful for us both, then we stopped. A month later, I was at WW's in May and we had wine together. After putting s4 to bed she asked me to sleep w/ her. Not sure how, but I backed out, need vs. want. Then on July 4th I found out her A was still on. By July 26th I could not stand and called her out for a 2nd time. I did it over the phone. I never posted her reply. Her it is unedited, save the names; I did put some parentheses in a couple places to indicate what she was speaking to. I could tell she did not listen to all I had said, as she asks me to let her go, which I had told her was happening when we spoke:
"I’m not sure what to say, I’m not really sure what to write I guess.
Yes. You are right, I am moving through a lot of anger. I’m moving through a lot of regret. I keep myself busied with bullshit to not really deal with any of it, as usual. I imagine that I will get tired of this at some point, but right now it fills up time to not think, to not process or let myself care.
That is what he is. And that is all he is. (WW is referring to her OM in this opening. She called OM bullsht on the phone earlier)
I don’t want your love right now [CT1118]. It goes without saying that you and our little boy are the strengths in my life and the beautiful core of what is right and true and real in this world. And I meant it when I said I didn’t really deserve it, I know that you hate that and maybe one day that will change, maybe not. (She stated on phone that knowing I stilled loved her was painful)
But that is how I feel about myself. I guess I have felt that way a long time. There is a lot of damage that has been done to me. I am not asking for sympathy on this, it is only fact.
I tried you know? I tried really hard with us. To fit in a box and dress it up and be a good wife…but I’m not. I don’t think I have it in me. Maybe one day. Maybe not.
I don’t regret you. I don’t regret [name of s4]. These are the gifts that I think if there is a God I was gifted with.
But I cannot stand still to watch you hurt. Please just let me go. Do not try to save me. Do not try to stop me as I will only continue to hurt you.
Live your life and let me indulge in your happiness when you allow me to be a part of it. I only wish to see you happy and grow in your solidity and peace.
Maybe I can get there someday.
I love you."
[End]
So, didn't speak or comment. She txt'd me that night and asked if I read it and was I ok. I sent her back a picture of th rock wall I was climbing and said sweaty was a better adjective at the moment.
I responded to the email the next afternoon:
"You’ve always been a selfish jackass [name of WW] and my ADHD has never allowed me to be good at sympathy. Let’s no hold it against each other...as you wish [M nickname of WW]."
[End]
Two days later I got the late night call w/ tears and apologies. August 1 was the last time she told me she loved me on the phone and I did not say it back. The above email from WW would be the one I spoke to when I said my IC shed a tear while reading.
So when I think about the pain I am in, I cannot pretend that my WW is not also in pain. I think you can see in her response that she is in the A to cover up other pain she feels. Many old guard have explained why people use A's to do that. Affairs hurt and destroy. And need...no I do not need her, but I do still want. WW does not want, but she sure does act like she needs. This is the paradox.
I hope by posting this it sheds light on why things are so confusing. Clearly, I could have posted this weeks ago, but it was very personal. It was really feeling my heart cut while reading C-nut's post that made me think of putting it out there for some to learn, some to get insight, some to feel inspired.
Live your life and let me indulge in your happiness when you allow me to be a part of it. I only wish to see you happy and grow in your solidity and peace.
Maybe I can get there someday.
I love you."
[End]
So she is running around the victims triangle.
She is in immense pain by her writings.
Let go.
As she asks.
You didn't break her and can not fix her.
Yes, she has pain, no doubt. Urgent danger triggers two things - fight or flight. Living a youth trapped in that mental state of stress,except you can't seek flight and you are too young too fight will do lasting damage.
Imagine being on an airplane which is crashing for 40k ft. You can't run, there is nothing to fight - oh, and just to make sure you have no time to make peace with what's happening, let's say the plane recovers, then fails, then recovers, then fails...gaining 1k and loosing 2k in elev. each time until you just wish it would crash so the stress would stop.That's my childhood, hers too. You can be seemingly normal, happy in your M, happy as a parent, happy in your adult life. then one day something happens, something replays a movie from your life, it's bad and you view it as the inescapable truth of now as well as then. You want to prevent it. Except your not a kid anymore, some find a way to run - some turn around and fight.
ACE....Adverse Childhood Experience. A scale created in the 1990's based upon statistical analysis of real,world people. 1-10 categories each worth 1pt. Any score over 3 will statistically result in some detrimental effect on adult health/disease, emotional behavior, and social behavior in their lifetime if abuse is left untreated. The higher the number, the likelihood of a shorter lifespan by up to 20 years increases exponentially; example, 6 or more and the person has a 4000% greater chance of using IV drugs that the average bear. That ain't no extra zero either. Cancer, chronic, pain, addiction, permiscuity, diabetes, obesity, depression, inability to form relationships, learning disabilities, mental illness, etc...all chances increase immensely with a higher score. Beauty is, this can all be addressed if the background is known.
Like all statistical science, it helps place things into perspective, it helps facilitate understanding, when I took it for IC it helped make the repair of me feel that much more vital.
My score is a 7 of 10.
My WW score is an 8 of 10
Today I got Off from any DB I think. Not sure what it was. We both were taking s4 somewhere. She wanted to ask about my ADHD diagnosis, did not expect that. Had questions about it; what I was doing, how did I feel, was mind working better, more focus? I thought, why not, can only be good if she hears it, we did not really discuss beyond a couple emails following my initial diagnosis. I slipped into being an actual human around her for 20 minutes, just speaking to her like someone who has been asked about an issue they care about for themselves, showing what they learned. Took care of s4 and moved on. Been a strange day.
Today I got Off from any DB I think.... I slipped into being an actual human around her for 20 minutes, just speaking to her like someone who has been asked about an issue they care about for themselves, showing what they learned.
That seems to me, the perfect DB. You just treated her like a regular person, not someone special. That's how I see the best DB.
CT, how goes it today bud?
CT1118, I'm hoping your silence means you're taking a well-deserved break from this forum and enjoying GAL & your time w/ your S.
I used to think the slogan "Be the Change" was cornball but now I see the light...
Thanks for asking. Not too good. Any ground I had I lost today. Was getting s4 and when he was saying goodbye to his mother he asked if they could go to the pier and see Mr. [name of OM]. I made eye contact w her and just walked away. I had asked that he never meet my s4. She followed me down and was apologizing. I told her about my boundaries and just continued to get more pissed off from there. I really lost and beat her up verbally. Major, major backslide and I feel like all of my hard work just got set back months.
Thanks for asking. Not too good. Any ground I had I lost today. Was getting s4 and when he was saying goodbye to his mother he asked if they could go to the pier and see Mr. [name of OM]. I made eye contact w her and just walked away. I had asked that he never meet my s4. She followed me down and was apologizing. I told her about my boundaries and just continued to get more pissed off from there. I really lost and beat her up verbally. Major, major backslide and I feel like all of my hard work just got set back months.
CT1118,
Don't be too hard on yourself. It was a boundary and she crossed it. I'd be livid too.
Thanks for asking. Not too good. Any ground I had I lost today. Was getting s4 and when he was saying goodbye to his mother he asked if they could go to the pier and see Mr. [name of OM]. I made eye contact w her and just walked away. I had asked that he never meet my s4. She followed me down and was apologizing. I told her about my boundaries and just continued to get more pissed off from there. I really lost and beat her up verbally. Major, major backslide and I feel like all of my hard work just got set back months.
CT1118,
Don't be too hard on yourself. It was a boundary and she crossed it. I'd be livid too.
Agree with this. You'd have to be a robot to not react.
Just rip my heart out. So fcked up. I'm right there w/ you.
Thanks guys. Im not,even going to mention what i said. It just doesn't seem to matter. It wasn't about me, it was about our son, but when I got angry like that it made it about me.
Guess,I'll get back,to,anger issue with my IC. I really thought I was getting away from it. I meant what I had been saying, I really thought I wa putting some distance on it.
Thanks for asking. Not too good. Any ground I had I lost today. Was getting s4 and when he was saying goodbye to his mother he asked if they could go to the pier and see Mr. [name of OM]. I made eye contact w her and just walked away. I had asked that he never meet my s4. She followed me down and was apologizing. I told her about my boundaries and just continued to get more pissed off from there. I really lost and beat her up verbally. Major, major backslide and I feel like all of my hard work just got set back months.
Buddy, trust me. You didn't lose much, if ANY ground. My W told me after a week, when I found out about Trailer trash, that the 3 of them had been to the park together. I made it CLEAR I didn't want that loser around my boy. (My boy who btw looks like me, except for his blonde hair which he got from my Dad. He looks nothing like her) I yelled, screamed, cursed and hung up on her in seething anger numerous times 6-8 weeks after she left. When S mentioned it himself the past couple days, I let her know CLEARLY it was not appropriate. Today? I ask him the same question, he says "I had fun at Mommy's house!"
My point: Just because you got angry and likely told her the same things we've all told our spouses at least once, doesn't mean you're being D tomorrow. It doesn't mean you're full of anger and ugly inside. Just keep it in the back of your mind. The next time it should come up, stay calm but be VERY direct and tell her it is unacceptable.
The fact she said sorry is positive. If she said who cares, or something of that nature, I think you know what that would mean....
Thanks RSG, makes sense. I left out above that after we were done with the yelling, she went to bathroom & left her phone on the counter. It beeped and I don't know why I did it... I picked it up to see if it was OM. It Was...miss you baby, when will you be here. I was just damn mad. She walked,out and saw me w/ pone in hand. I felt like such an angry, needy, puss. Crushed my own manhood. Just a dumb move. I didn't do begging or crying, but just dumb. Had gone so far for,so long. Big lesson to all who thought I was strong, backslides can hide in the darkness of your mind and you don't even know it. I can't even explain to her, she wouldn't care or understand.
She said, "I don't know what this guy is to me. You know it's not the long haul, I mean come on, he is a nowhere person." So, a person she cares nothing for is a better alternative to me, a man she said again that she loves after all of the above. She told,me how scared she was by our behavior at the end of the marriage and how we treated each other.
It was all there for me, education, GAL, 180, IC,,support group...and my own damn ego over the OM made me bang it all up in a single day. All I had to do was spit out one calm sentence on my boundary and leave it there.I think I need to just go NC for a good while. I've just spent the past couple days realizing that I just don't feel very healthy...mentally. Still did gym and went for walks. Took s4 to pool today. Couldn't engage with the present.
CT,
You are human like the rest of us. The WW/H is the one without emotion or should I say has F'd up emotions that drive them to be selfish. Don't be so hard on yourself. We wear our hearts on our sleeves and would almost do anything to get our S's back. Tomorrow is a new day! Hang in there.
CT,
This is a tough ride and we all know there is no short cut to the end. All the things you went through the other day it is natural to have feelings and sometimes we can't control them. all we can do is focus on our kids and moving forward the W's we knew arnt functioning at the moment they are in some auto pilot wreck less spiral and it will end.
In my view right now I'm less and less day by day caring what my W is doing. It's her loss but I'm not blowing anything up so there is no way back for her just not worrying about what she is doing and you will get back to that place of not caring.
In my mind I really don't care about OM and I came to this by thinking about it in the way that he doesn't know my real W and everything she will be doing and telling him will be to make herself look good. Our W's are lost at the moment and it could take years to snap out of it or maybe never but I'm ok with that if my D2 is happy and cared for.
I am pretty much rambling things you have heard a million times but truly just this last week it's been 7 months since she left and only now am I at the point where I have realized it is truly her loss in every way. I made mistakes and I am working on them but I absoloutely guarantee that in a few years time with or without her I will be in a much better place. I don't want to see her crash and burn but I just know it's a certainty. Stay strong and fight the good fight
You know why you did it, and frankly it's not bad. You know what would freak her out? Picking up the phone, giving it to her and saying nothing. Your reaction was actually not bad at all, and seems like it really scared her. But she's still spinning mentally and has no idea what she wants.
But, if YOU don't feel in a good spot mentally that's what you need to work on. Calm down, take it a moment at a time. Going NC might be a good idea for you, it'll get you to focus inward again. Keep doing fun stuff with your boy!!
CT1118 you are still fkng superman in my book
you are an inspiration because you're real and you hurt like the rest of us
CT1118 you are still fkng superman in my book
you are an inspiration because you're real and you hurt like the rest of us
Thanks For that and to all you for the support. Some great words have been said to me over the past couple of days. I was on the JRUSS thread reading some responses to him. A big one from Sandi and some wise input from ForGump. I certainly had a big blow to my detachment this week. Not being able emotionally to put it all out there at once. I made some btch moves and I am going to get past it,I.e. looking in her phone and I ran into one of her BFFs who engaged me about what was going on...I thought this chick knew of the A b/c I was told by WW that she did, so I spoke like she did....drum roll...she did not. So I also exposed WW to her BFF. While her BFF supported me, I also looked weak to her as while explaining things and fresh from the bloody ego a tear and voice crack occurred.
Anyway, on the other thread...my WW is not going to wake up from what I do. She makes enough money on her own to not need my income. For her, not seeing s4 for a couple nights is a relief as he is very needed and really wears on her. She is very beautiful and intelligent, so finding some turd to fill in for man duties is not a problem. She needs some therapy, but is unwilling to go. Now I've found out that only one of her friends actually knew of her A. Not anyone beyond that. So any NC would be for me, but I can't NC dark because of our child in terms of decisions. I feel ready enough to handle a D, but I don't want one for many reasons, costs is one of them. I want to hang in there and give this DB some more time.
She still loves me, but does not think I have changed enough for her to see. What I did this week showed it to her, more importantly showed it to me. I have some traveling to do today early and then back home for s4 tonight. It's a new day. Retool, refocus, reself.
Forget the other day and move forward bud. YOU have just as much of a decision to make! Show her that. Show that you are thinking about whether YOU want to D or not!
Yes, RSG moving forward. Today was a much better day with air travel to keep my mind off things. Was a rather boring evening for s4 tonight as I was quite tired from quick travel to do anything of consequence with him. Just dinner and a couple movies.
Have taken to the habit of writing letters to the WW that I will eventually send. The first time I did this was on how to tell her I knew she was still in A - actions which eventually resulted in my BD2 w/ her. This one was about me taking a restraining order out on OM. I looked up his criminal record. He is a legal gun owner where I live. He has also been arrested twice for trespassing in the past two years, gotten two speeding tickets in two months, and a failure to have a documented vehicle once this summer. I think that shows reckless behavior I do not wish to have around my son. The letter will be drafted a few times I am sure. But fk her for doing introducing our kid to her drug.
Just got out of IC an hour ago. Had not been in two weeks. Realized before I got there that what I wrote in my last post was a horrible idea. I gave IC my most recent sitch updates. IC said it sounds like I did a good job of defending my boundaries and that I have been very brave thus far and not to worry or feel like my backslide was that destructive. IC said my own response to it and how I feel about could be more destructive so to do my best to continue looking forward.
I spoke to what happened and the results of it and more things that my wayward spouse has said.IC said something is very clear from my reporting of the sitch - that my WW is very confused about who she is and what she wants. IC said she would not diagnose my WW as she was not her patient (very professional I thought) but my beliefs that latent childhood trauma, midlife concerns, and general indecision all sound accurate - leading IC to make the confusion statement. IC said what she hears is the OM is not marriage material for my WW, that WW means it when she does not understand why she is w/ this OM, and that WW does appear to be seeking what her own identity is - again, all based upon what I give to IC and IC was careful to point that out.
IC concluded w/ given the world of confused messages my WW offers me, it seems reasonable that I would struggle with how to respond. IC then told me that I am in one of the most unique situations she has ever heard. I said that sounded interesting that an IC in practice for over 30 years finds my situation unique. She expanded a bit more.
Session concluded w/ me giving IC a list of goals to help me work on.
Anyway. Today. New day.I am going to redirect attention back to detachment. Its the best for everyone, but mostly me. Its all I can do right now.
Tolerance and support appreciated from all here.
IC then told me that I am in one of the most unique situations she has ever heard.
Sheesh! You should send her over here. So many of us have similar stories - but then again we are a self-selecting population.
Today. New day.I am going to redirect attention back to detachment. Its the best for everyone, but mostly me. Its all I can do right now.
Tolerance and support appreciated from all here.
Keep strong my friend. To quote the ancient philosopher Red Green "I'm pullin' for ya. We're all in this together."
I think very few of our looney spouses have found marriage material. By design. It's just a stupid, lazy quick fix (aka Grade A Loser). Some of their problems are much deeper though.
Always looking forward is hard, but keep working on your goals. What's going to help you in all this is your boy. Keep on being Daddy.....
CT, catching up after a couple days of absence around here. Like others have said, don't be too hard on yourself for the other day. We're all feeling the same pain you are, in one way or the other and you're definitely not alone!
On thing I would offer around this:
So any NC would be for me, but I can't NC dark because of our child in terms of decisions. I feel ready enough to handle a D, but I don't want one for many reasons, costs is one of them. I want to hang in there and give this DB some more time.
It seems like you could go NC dark, just limit any conversations to those around your S4. Make them very business like and either don't respond, or cutoff non-S4 related dialogue. Just a thought, and I'm nowhere near this w/ both W and I still S in house, but I wouldn't completely remove the idea of going NC b/c of S4.
Hang in there brother! A few folks (most who are posting in this thread) and yourself are my lighthouses here. We're here to support you!
So, GAL. GAL's do make one feel better. Did Gym today for 45 minutes, felt great. Went to work - had full intention to focus, kicked the door down on focus - much done. Only logged into this site once, which is good - for most of July easily spent 3 hours here while at work. Of course, as previously mentioned - did IC today, always good GAL (PS Andrew P - very good point on the self-selecting population; my IC was referring to some things which truly do appear to be unique w/ my WW from a psychological approach - yet I have not the energy or concern for explaining at this time, beg your mercy sir). Everyone here was right, I was very hard on myself the other days - it lasted. I made a choice not to be today, it was a choice.
WW and I did have contact today. I decided to try something slightly different than in the past, but again, no energy for explaining right now.
Best GAL for today...left work - 85 degrees on the southern coast in August, a rare thing below 95 this time of year. Went skateboarding along the ocean. Listening to a podcast about overcoming an unwillingness to speak to strangers - if you have followed me, you know this has been a struggle with a goal. On way back to my vehicle stopped off at a tiki-bar, intent was water, 2 drinks - speak to whomever came near me, male or female...just...fking...converse! Male bartender, opened up small talk, he left for a customer. Female bartender walked by - stopped her, 10 minutes of talk. Woman in the bar representing a local brewery - engaged, spoke for three hours nonstop. No bathroom, no pause, no awkward silence...solid talking, had no idea that was coming. After 30 minutes, she said her husband was there to which I replied "believe me, I am the last if not only dude in this place who would betray that trust right now. Where is he, introduce me." She did and he left and her and I continued.
She was quite pretty, but its all about goals and my goal was not phone numbers, ego strokes, or hooking up. Goal was to engage strangers, see if I could. Believe me, going back into the world after the WW forces you to brush your teeth w/ sht is hard enough, being an introverted scattered mind is worse. However, as said before - challenge the self, so I did and I managed to have a good time with just talking. Home, food, dog walk. Felt good to get back to getting a life.
Won't have s4 (who will be known as s5 really soon) again until Thursday. Will miss him horrible until.
That's awesome work CT,
To go and speak to random people you don't know for that long and not be awkward is awesome. I don't think I could do that yet but it would be something good to aim for.
Sounds like you are good at filling out your day with little GAL activities and that is great. You sound like me when I have my D2 I feel like everything is right in the world and most of my problems disappear (probably because they keep us so busy) but when she goes back with W that's when it's much harder.
Stay strong CT you are doing awesome.
Thanks albac. My work requires me to be very public and in front of people. This is not a problem, but it leaves me exhausted - introverts need quiet/solitude to recharge. The 1:1 talking is the worst. I have chosen to disrupt that in my life and do something different.
I want to return to something Andrew P brought up about my IC stating the uniqueness of my WW. I do see many many similarities here w/ my sitch and others. What I do think maybe different from most and what I believe my IC referred to:
- I never heard ILBNILWY. Never heard IL OM
- OM has been hidden from all family, friends (as I just found out except 2), social media, and co-workers; this has been sustained from the beginning and gone on for 8-9 months now.
- WW has repeatedly trashed and degraded OM and stated she does not "know what he is", does not "have interest in him as a man" etc. I could go on and on here.
- WW continues to lie about OM to me, despite being outed twice and could speak freely about it if she wished.
- WW still states she is in love with me and attempts to show physical affection, but does not seek the favoritism of asking me to repair/fix/provide, i.e. there is no exchange from me for her emotions.
- WW still refers to me when speaking with others as her H.
- WW states that she wants a D so that we can date again as she hates the roles society asks her to fill as a W, mother, homemaker.
I don't know. I could go on I guess. Definitely other things. I mean she is in & she is out. Why I think its MLC. But I also think I dealt a great deal of pain with my addiction to a woman who was already in pain. So, I am I plan B? Maybe. Is she MLC? Maybe. She is certainly confused as to what she wants in a way that she is wanting to move on, but also not willing to move on b/c she does not know what she wants. I have never doubted that she loves me, nor I her. What I think both her & I question is could we ever be together again as a couple. May take is yes, but we should work on it together. Her take is maybe, but we need to work on it apart.
So, the past few days since this weekend I have settled back into detachment and it is feeling more comfortable. I truly do know I will be alright if her and I never get back together. I am not sure if that disappointment would ever go away - I have read far too many D regret stories on the internet and many of them written by women who left men. Its all just such a damn shame. But my progress as a human, well that looks good. I am achieving my goals. I am even going back to work now. I only diverted from work as I felt like putting this out there.
Strength is my wish to all of us.
CT1118-- remind me ... is your W getting help from an IC? Can you tell if the IC is any good?
She's got a lot of long-standing, difficult personal history and psychology, and until/unless she starts to deal with those, your M will be difficult. (This dimension is what your M and my M have in common).
CT1118-- remind me ... is your W getting help from an IC? Can you tell if the IC is any good?
She's got a lot of long-standing, difficult personal history and psychology, and until/unless she starts to deal with those, your M will be difficult. (This dimension is what your M and my M have in common).
No she is not. And you ain't kidding my friend. Difference in her and I...I have my own issues extending well before M and surely before S. However, I believe in ability of doctor's to help, and my IC is helping me. I am already more different than I could have imagined.
As an ex. of her different outlook from mine. W agreed w/ me when I wanted s4 to go to a behavioral IC 2 wks ago. His 1st meeting is tomorrow. On Saturday, W asks me what made me so sure he need to go. I said "you go to the dermatologist often. What made you think you needed to go there as opposed to letting things work themselves out on their own. This doctor is a specialist like your dermatologist and exists to help people like our son. He has been in 3 different daycares and all three have said he can't listen, he is violent with other kids, and he won't follow rules. He is 4, this is not free spirit we are dealing with, these are issues." Then she nodded and said ok.
So, Sandi and Cadet (not directly quoting either) have spoken a few times as to how, after time, the WW world will begin to collapse. I think today I saw my first big taste of that (maybe not, ya'll tell me). After my post earlier today I get an email from her (she made 1st contact, this was it). Told me she left daycare crying uncontrollably. That our son made her run late, he refused to get dressed/eat/etc. She had to force him into the car. Said last night they got kicked out of her gym after 15 min b/c s4 bit another kid, he did say a kid took his ball, but she told him that he cannot respond w/ violence. She was late for a business meeting w/ a client this morning and had no time to prepare, so she blew that. Said she looked messy and disheveled and that the past two days w/ him have been like this. She can't do anything w/out him making demands of her or constantly calling for her and she is losing it (this is true, he does that to her). She closed her email saying she was "at a loss" and that she "feels hopeless" right now.
All I could tell her was that I know she feels stressed and that I am thinking of our son and her at this time. Then I said I am here to listen if she wants to talk. Felt right to say those things and I meant it. If for nothing more than my son and her relationship.
So, I am not sure if this is the type of collapse I have read about, but it sure looked and sounded like collapse to me.
Man, I want to tell your W -- and mine (!!!) -- No [censored] sherlock! What did you THINK a separation or a divorce was going to do to our young kids!!!
But I won't say that.
I think this is where the literature about narcissism is helpful. My W also rejects professional help. She thinks they're all quacks. She believes they might help normal people but she's above all of that. She'd rather self-medicate and numb herself every night w/ mj. I think all of that is rooted in extreme insecurity. To get help from a professional is to open yourself up, make yourself vulnerable to some level of examination by another person. She fears judgment to an extreme degree (while being very judgmental herself). So, to protect herself from having to do that, to give herself reason to say No to help, she makes herself believe they're quacks and she's above them. Which, I believe, is a form a narcissism.
I get help from IC but I do have a healthy dose of skepticism. I believe you have to shop for one that works well with you. I don't believe everything they say or advocate. But I am humble enough to recognize that I have something to gain from talking to one.
I asked my current IC early on, "Why do you think you can help me?" She replied after brief silence, "Because I've been doing this a long time and I know something about human nature." Great answer.
Mine IS seeing a therapist. She is apparently working on things like her temper, patience, gratefulness etc. She may or may not be talking about "us" but I'd never know obviously. W has apologized for losing her temper with me (usually via text) a few hours after being ugly with me. That'd never happen if I haven't learned how to control my anger and not fight right back in the moment.
She has walked back from "I'm done" to "No, I don't want a divorce (right now)." She had a mini breakdown the other day, over her impending surgery, work, insurance, S and his therapy/school issues and of course "us." I can see steps forward, but I also see how confused she seems to be. If I stepped in it and said "I love you" or some such, I bet we'd be divorced within a few weeks.
I don't know how good my therapist is, but she's great at getting me to talk. The release is amazing for me, and she asks good questions. She gives me a female perspective. One important thing she's showed me is that, even though I've been working on it, I'm still not communicating well enough. As an introvert, it's always hard to take everything out of your head and explain it either in the details or you take for granted that some things should be obvious. I've felt awkward in trying to validate feelings, and show I'm listening instead of trying to fix and the therapist noted a few examples I gave and she said they were really good. It helps to get a seal of approval for something like that!
As for your W relationship with S, my wife hasn't broken down about it but it's obvious. She's told me she can't parent w/o me, but I CAN parent w/o her. That's something I never would've imagined. I have noticed he starts to cry and talks about Mommy's house, but he speaks so softly, and so garbled I don't know what he's saying. He could be saying I don't want to go to Mommy's house or I miss Mommy, I just can't tell but I am monitoring. All that to say, your W will likely get frustrated and cry if she can't take care of your boy. But it'll take a confluence of events for real results to show.
She has walked back from "I'm done" to "No, I don't want a divorce (right now)."
That's a big step forward!
Yeah, I have no doubt I can manage living alone and taking care of my kids. Sadly, I can't see my W doing that. She really needs help.
I think this is where the literature about narcissism is helpful. My W also rejects professional help. She thinks they're all quacks. She believes they might help normal people but she's above all of that. She'd rather self-medicate and numb herself every night w/ mj. I think all of that is rooted in extreme insecurity. To get help from a professional is to open yourself up, make yourself vulnerable to some level of examination by another person. She fears judgment to an extreme degree (while being very judgmental herself). So, to protect herself from having to do that, to give herself reason to say No to help, she makes herself believe they're quacks and she's above them. Which, I believe, is a form a narcissism.
Interesting point FG. I am going to think about it.
As an introvert, it's always hard to take everything out of your head and explain it either in the details or you take for granted that some things should be obvious. I've felt awkward in trying to validate feelings, and show I'm listening instead of trying to fix and the therapist noted a few examples I gave and she said they were really good. It helps to get a seal of approval for something like that!
RSG - progress on the WW saying that! About the introvert thing; that's it brother, that is it. It is awkward to validate, not try to fix while easy to over-explain and think the world is obvious. You nailed it. Part of why my W left, she said as much, she just never connected it to my introversion.
So on the "try to fix part". Yesterday I spoke of talking to a stranger woman for 3 hours. At some point I had mentioned having a son enough to where she asked my story. I told her. She started crying. I said "are you crying over my story or am I reminding you of something from your own life?" She answered both and then she told me of an EA she had that almost tore her and her H apart. I asked her what led to that and she said, "the number one thing guys do that all women hate - he tried to fix everything. He would never just listen, only repair. Women want men to listen sometimes." "Sometimes." I said. "But sometimes you want us to be men and take care of business, how should we know when to do one over the other?" She replied "if its my car, fix it, if its my friend, or family, or work - just listen." So there is my passing of advice boys. Stands out in my head because it made a lot of sense about me. Exactly why I had no advice for my W today when she was upset, I just listened.
She replied "if its my car, fix it, if its my friend, or family, or work - just listen."
Getting it tattooed on the insides of my eyelids.
Thanks CT and Gump. It is a step forward, I really didn't expect her to say that...
My therapist definitely talked about listening vs fixing things, and she says I'm really improving there. Also, I've seen it criticized in some circles, but one thing Men are From Mars Women are from Venus drives home is this dichotomy. I think W notices how I don't offer solutions anymore, but I also try to speak that way around other women so it becomes a habit rather than something I'm practicing.
No solutions, validation: After speaking w/ WW and offering what I said earlier in an email about being there to listen, she replied back "yup". My thought was she is oblivious, but something will come in later - it did. Two hours after that she wrote "...sorry I was so short earlier"....blah, etc. I validated heavy and referred to the way she handled s4 where she assumed I would not have approved in her initial email:
"What you did below, I was not thinking you were rewarding his bad behavior. I was thinking how gentle it is that you love him so much and just want him to be alright, even when he can’t understand. You did the right thing. There are no promotions or awards for the job you do with him. But you are great at this job [name of WW], you are an excellent mother. It makes me proud to know our son has you beside him and I truly mean that."
I sent it after WW left work, so no reply, might not get one - either way I learn what work or what does not. However, I meant it. It is in the best interest of my s4 that I keep her R w/ him well. I have read before here that this position from the LBS is not always understood, but the way I see the world is thru lenses that have my toddler imprinted on them. If I have to suffer setbacks or personal defeat to promote his better world, so be it. Again though, I meant it; she has failed me, perhaps even herself, but not necessarily him up to this point. I cannot control her, only myself and my response was controlled and with a goal to help her in helping him.
Would think all with small kids in similar sitch's would understand when I say that I would burn this whole earth into the dirt and still protect s4's mom if it meant he was better at the end of the day. I did not offer help, as I cannot w/out telling her what she is doing wrong and what I do right w/ s4. I take no pleasure in observing her struggle w/ him. All I can do is gently validate and remain detached.
Dear CT118,
Kudos to you for being a big enough man to put your sweet son number one regardless of anything . Too often The adults are the ones that act like kids when there is a difficult family dynamics going on. I don't always agree with everything my husband does regarding our kids but at the end of the day I know he is doing the very best job he can and he's always doing what he considers best for them . BTW he was raised in a single parent family and wasn't lucky enough to have a dad who cared but he made sure to always be a great parent. So my point is caring adults will raise good kids .IMHO
CT,
You asked a while ago to stop by here some time. Just wanted to say "hey" to let you know that I will when things are a bit more settled from my end. Posted a bit more info in Coconut's thread if you are curious.
Chin up....
Talk later, alligator.
CT,
You asked a while ago to stop by here some time. Just wanted to say "hey" to let you know that I will when things are a bit more settled from my end. Posted a bit more info in Coconut's thread if you are curious.
Chin up....
Talk later, alligator.
Well, Wonka - my posture looks better already.
OK, so today's contact: She opened with a text responding to one I sent yesterday afternoon. She was laughing at something I said. We exchanged some banter. Then she got to work and saw the email I posted (I was right, she had left work before reading). She said she really needed it and thanked me for sending it. The exchanges went on all day and was entertaining, flirty at times.
I picked up s4 from school and took him to the LC for a group play session; his first one. She preliminarily suggested ADD, separation anxiety, and problems expressing emotions combined with a need to be the center of attention. No sht I thought.
Got home and while taking s4 to pool he tells me that mommy had (name of OM) to her house for a sleep over last night. I took it calmly and asked about 5 questions to clarify - he is 4, so not all sentences make sense. Wile he was swimming I was thinking about it. I did not have the anger like I did last weekend where I thought about restraining orders. I just thought perhaps I should tell her this is it, I'm out. Zero dark thirty. But then I realized, that would change nothing. Nothing at all. She wouldn't stop seeing him. Not while in the chaos kid state of mind. MLC, only self-driven.
I went NC dim for a while. The result were her freaking out, but still sticking to her guns, still doing what she was doing. It worked, but then I switched up to revealing more personality, but I was still hanging on. My freak out last week when I heard the OM met my son made me realize this. So on Tuesday, I began treating her with validation tactics again, but also slipping in subtle connection items into my communication. Literally communicating like I would have treated women when I was single - as in maybe I am interested, maybe I am not, you can't figure it out. That was/is also getting results as her communication desires skyrocketed and I would cut them off right at their peak. This approach feels less like me lying, its actually more of my real self. I most likely did not explain that part very well. I can come back to it.
Things is, way I feel right now, I have detached. I do not feel fear over this. I got here, I did it. I cannot see that going total dark would make a difference now. I've already been DIM and it felt like I was trying too hard and it felt like a response to her, not the real me. Plus, part of how I got here was by being dark when we were MR, so going dark would just look and feel like old self returning. That said, the fear is gone. I will still not initiate divorce. Then my s4 would just have two confusing sets of parents. I still do not want divorce. That is because I still believe something positive that is a new version can happen (notice I did not say return). But, either way, I have no fear.
I have had three women texting me tonight and W is not one of them. I did not see it coming, nor did I begin any of it. All of them from three distinct points in my life and one of them out of nowhere I know 20 years ago. I did not flirt with any of them or do any stuff like that. And my emotions, libido, and heart remain unmoved. Best I can tell, only one of them contacted for no other reason than she felt like talking. Point of sharing this here, is to say that the world is big and life is grand. And in the face of something like three women texting me an hour after what my s4 told me. I will not be pursuing any of them or anyone else. I remain committed to me right now and to my son. If W wants a piece of it, still cool with that, but I have lost the fear of it being otherwise.
Seems to me like my last bubble burst last weekend. The biggest fear left was my s4 meeting her OM and now its done and I cant stop it. Month number 9 of the PA approaches in September. I will see what comes. I will sleep on the idea of dark tonight.
If I were in your shoes -- as I will be soon, I believe -- I would be messed up. Despite all the hurting and heartbreak I've gone through, to have my kids tell me about some OM w/ Mommy ... man, I would be messed up.
So kudos for rising above that. For strength.
But it seems to me that your W is eating emotional cake from you when she gets to maintain a strong emotional connection with you.
So I guess cut to the chase...what I posted above was a feeling of course. But... what advice/success has anyone had w/ communicating hard issues to W in this sitch? I have read enough to know - the WW and/or MLC is not aware nor concerned w/ the pain they cause others. However, this question is about me or any future M or R.
How can I effectively communicate to her how damaging it is to bring her OM around our s4 right now - especially for a sleep over. He was so confused last night, proven by his questions to me this morning about why mommy and daddy are not together. Of course, do it calmly, show no emotion or judgement - yes, I get that. Other than just stating the facts of the matter and how detrimental and long lasting I think this could be - who has had success communicating something like this and how did it go?
(if you know my story, you know I have already addressed this with her a few times, but evidence only tells me this was the 2nd time s4 met this guy).
Thanks
GAL tonight, work was an major kick today. I work at a University and all of the students return each labor day time period. Crushing. Normally would go out, but lost all energy. Goes against normal response for me - forcing water upstream to not be introverted, but today there were multiple fires and I felt like I was the only one trained in saving babies (so to speak).
So normal GAL, where I would have gone out w/ new friends/ challenged myself to meet/talk w new people did not happen. Hell, even the mandatory lunch time gym got kicked to the curb today. I did however call my mother...which was a HUGE GAL. This was the woman who beat me, belittled me, and broke me for the first 12 years of life. I have tried to forgive her over the years - many years. I have witnessed her trying to forgive herself. I almost never call her. I have come to peace with her, but forgiveness still always felt far away.
She taught me aggression. She taught me to shut up and hide. She taught me to take my own pain and turn it on others so that I would not feel it. But...but...in all I have gone through in the past 4 years; becoming a father, addicting/kicking drugs, loosing a W, loosing myself, finding myself, etc. I have realized she is a human being, even if a chaos kid. I have always known she was a victim of abuse herself. She was born in NAZI Germany, there is a swastika on her birth certificate which I have. Her father was injured in the first months of invading Russia, got sent back to Germany in 1941 to recover, sired her, she was born in '42 and then he went back to Russia only to survive of all possible shtty experiences in life. She met some unknonwn mixed blood GI from Cherokee, North Carolina that her parents hated who brought her to the states and thus, 13 years after they met, 41 years after they rocked me out on a visit back to Germany,here I am.
I never made her part of my GAL, she existed before GAL and so did my journey with her. I have slowly not forgiven her, but accepted her over the years. But tonight, for reasons I do not know (other than to guess I am different than who I was), I called her and I spoke with her, which I never do. We spoke for two hours. I did not give away my WW's story of the A (mom does not know, but she is a mom - there are some sayings which may apply now?). Yet, I did speak to her open and honestly about where I was about myself, with myself, and about my son. She began crying about an hour deep. I had no emotion; I could blame that on her, but it seems fruitless at this point. She was not weeping, but I do believe she heard some of her own pain in what I expressed about myself.
I am not sure if the saying is women marry their fathers or men marry their mothers, or both, vice versa...whatever. I do know that my mother spent her life severely skull fked from her mother and that my WW is the same way. I also know I resemble my WW's father in many ways. Anyway, tonight I gave my mother more than I have given her in over two decades; it felt decent, correct, and proper. And she felt like a mother who wanted nothing more than to help her son, like she had been wanting to help me for so long, and with a desire that is only felt for things which are very old and very far away.
I am glad I got tired today. I am glad I glad I came straight home. I am glad I called her.
Wow CT, your strength is amazing.
Seriously been through some major events and came out the other side a great person. So much respect with the way you are taking your life back for yourself!
Inspirational stuff CT and I'm glad you are finding peace in this life as most of us on here we are nothing like the people we were just mere months ago. I know I have grown more as a person in the last 7 months through this experience of total loss I guess it is in a way something to be thankful for.
Massive respect for you CT, stay strong.
Ain't a damn thing I can say other than this: That was amazing.
Man your problems make mine seem small. Inspiring.
GAL today will be cleaning house, going to beach, beginning course work - last year of graduate school begins today.
W texted this morning. Her day began w/ problems w/ s4. She was also unhappy she had to take him to a bday party. I did not have much energy for it. All my replies were basic Wonka validation. Finally got her to send the "Thanks, have a good day" text, which indicates the end of it.
Went to the ocean for skating today.Road my board and listen to music along the Atlantic Ocean for about an hour. Grabbed a slice of pizza and sat down. Some old friends I've not seen in a bit happened by. I hung out w/ them for a brie time. Got a text from some other friends inviting me over for a pool party and some BBQ. Sounded great so I went.
Nothing amazing will happen in life when you sit at home alone. Get out, get seen, get engaged, turn up.
Have my son tomorrow. Looking forward to it.
Nothing amazing will happen in life when you sit at home alone. Get out, get seen, get engaged, turn up.
CT, this is so very true. Not only does it occupy your mind, but you never know what'll happen when you put yourself out there. Keeps life interesting.
All the others are right about you brother. You are a super strong dude. You've been through so much, and the fact you have been able to handle it as perfectly as you have is a testament to your strength and perseverance. I continue to follow your story with awe and you should know that you are a rock a lot of folks around here look to.
Enjoy your time with your son CT!
It0402 - thank you so much. I really and truly appreciate those words and respect them. It seems as if each day brings a new challenge and a new opportunity. Knowing my W is now willing to allow her OM around our s4 and knowing that she has stated how little she cares for OM is a hard pill to swallow as a parent. I am detached and my emotions are incredibly residing in my son. But, IMO and for me, hitting detachment means what you hear in this place so often... accepting that our spouses are on their own journey, are free to make their own mistakes, and we hope that they will drive out of the fog at some point, but we are not in the passenger seat any longer.
I have expressed many times I do not want OM around my son. I might feel differently if she told me ILYBNILWY or that she loved him. Neither of those ever occurred. So, yeah what began as ego is now that I don't want him around my kid for my kid's health. Yet, I cannot control her and I accept that.
What I can do is change focus. Can I be the stronger parent for my son? Can I provide him with the tools to handle confusion? Can I refrain from pushing questions on him and from making negative statements about his mother's behavior? Yes, I control that.
Where does self-confidence come from? Strength or courage? Introspection? Corrective action? Change - long lasting and permanent change for the better? All of this comes from choice. And this choice is made for the self. Will not happen overnight, but once one accepts their journey and begins walking into it, the amazing can happen.
Hell has sent me many demons to confront and enslave me in this life and I allowed them to use me for a long time. Honestly at this point, those demons bore the sht of me, and that took all their power away.
S4 got dropped off sick. I took him to the clinic. She took no action. Ear infection. I am not mad, nor am I disappointed. Further, its not something I expected. Sometimes you have to adjust plans as necessary.
S4 got dropped off sick. I took him to the clinic. She took no action. Ear infection. I am not mad, nor am I disappointed. Further, its not something I expected. Sometimes you have to adjust plans as necessary.
Agree, it's always best to remain flexible, especially where the kids are involved. See you posting in a lot of other threads today. How's your day going bud? Son feeling better?
Thanks for asking. I was posting over my lunch hour. Did not feel like gym today, which is terrible, but with son being sick I did not sleep well and lost my energy. He appeared better today. I ran late for things as I let him sleep more than usual. I have him again tonight, so will know more then. Just checking in her during the last 15 minutes of work - I did a lot today.
To be honest,as you have most likely seen, I am concerned about ForGump. Trouble with anonymity here - no way to call and check.
Had IC this morning. Went well. You know, the amount of people who have told me I was brave since the start of all this..."if I had a dollar" so to speak. I do appreciate it. Think of the fight or flight impulse. I have always been a fighter. Does not mean that I would always get into fights, but I always fought. And so I continue to fight.
Detachment, so many say they want to get here quick. I would propose that it cannot be quick if it is to be real, as well, some may arrive faster than others. Detachment also does not mean everyday is trouble free. This is where you fight. I was just stuck in traffic and caught myself wishing this whole MLC process would hurry up and fast forward itself. I had to abort that thought. Its not healthy. I do not want the WW on the other end of my phone. I want a new version of the woman I married. One who is ready to be with me and have a family. I don't need that, I want it.
Figuring out how to love while detached is its own challenge. I hope you get there, but it is not free of trouble.
Well said. I wanted to go home with the woman I saw today. But I know there are still parts of her that are connected to the toxicity that caused her to leave. Sort of illustrated by the crushed Natty Light can on the floorboard.
Yes. The feeling to hit the FF button hits hard, and is difficult to fight but fight we must. I'm quite certain my W isn't in a MLC, but every time I see positives I want the snowball to really get moving. Instead, it's more like watching an inchworm crawling across the parking lot ha.
Loving someone going through their journey is hard. "This hurts me more than it does you" makes sense here. I want my W to come home, eventually. The woman I knew and fell in love with, and wanted to live with forever.....and someone who has finally learned how to be happy with who she is. I guess you can put it this way. You can love where your home is, but want to completely redo it and make it into your dream home. You have to figure out the blue prints alone. You turn them in, and watch it get built....watching and worrying about every little problem, believing that that one specific problem will ruin the whole thing. But at the same time each install, each correct measurement, each little positive means it'll turn out perfectly.
Loving someone going through their journey is hard. "This hurts me more than it does you" makes sense here. I want my W to come home, eventually. The woman I knew and fell in love with, and wanted to live with forever.....and someone who has finally learned how to be happy with who she is. I guess you can put it this way. You can love where your home is, but want to completely redo it and make it into your dream home.
Yes, it is very hard. The 'homecoming' is a great analogy. When I married her, we were out on the town that night. Just her and I. She told me to take my ring off and read the inside of it. It said "...to never leave home again." I asked her what this meant, she took hers off and it read "A promise..."
She had lost her ring while moving - this was a full 8 months before any of the sitch began. We were going to replace it, but did not prioritize. In the first month of our S, her and I were having an R talk. She said that the promise remained, that I was her home, and that she would always come back.
In hindsight - don't wait for me, but leave the door unlocked is what she was saying. So, yes, loving the one who left. Quite a challenge RSG. Sht, just writing that I was overcome w/ a wave of love for her. But, I am stronger now. I know that love is for the prisoner inside and not for the WW.
CT and RSG...it is a hard journey! CT, I love what was written in your rings! When my W left she said I hope you let me come back. Ugh...now she has moved in with her AP....but she won't say she is done with us....sounds like mine is saying leave the door unlocked as well. Its like she is projecting her feelings and needs to feel like she is not alone...
thanks for the love CT
sorry about the way i put it, my feelings. fwiw, i'm not the self harm type, and would do anything to be there for my kids. offing myself is not any part of my plan for being there for my kids