This is Thread #2. Thread #1 is right here -->
Keep Wearing Wedding Band?I think a brutally honest and expanded recap of my situation is apropos from the vantage point of Thread #2, twenty days into my posting in this forum:
My W says,
- I'm sexually unattractive
- I mother her
- I suffocate her
- We are like brother-and-sister
- "I don't want to be celibate for the rest of my life"
I strongly believe my W suffers from *some* levels of borderline personality disorder (BPD) and/or narcissistic personality disorder and/or obsessive compulsive disorder and/or anxiety & depression. I emphasize "some levels" because I don't want to overstate my certainty about the diagnosis, nor do I want to give myself a free pass. But my belief is based on her own W, her account of her life history including childhood trauma, some professional opinions, opinions of others who know W, and my own research.
My faults in the marriage ... I am still in the process of trying to see and understand those in myself, with the help of a therapist and this forum ... but so far as I understand, I believe my role in this failed marriage have been:
- I did suffocate her with too much attention.
- I did slide into a mothering role by helping her with everything she could not do for herself.
- I did emasculate myself by avoiding conflict w/ my W.
- I did emasculate myself by not letting my own character stand strong.
- I also failed often to tune into her emotional life and connect to her emotionally.
- I also failed often to tune into her sexual needs and connect better sexually.
Could I have avoided D by not doing the above? I don't know. I believe the dynamics under which we first fell in love and married was strongly driven by her BPD-like personality, so some *type* of mismatch or conflict was inevitable. If I had not emasculated myself into a mothering role, we might be facing a D for other reasons, such as too much conflict or simply MLC driven by her own personality/history/biology. I accept that as a known unknown.
Where does that put me in terms of DB? I believe my W is a mix of WW and MLC, with a splash of WAS. But, again, this is not something I know with much clarity. I believe the general prescription for what I need to do is is the same: detach, GAL, and 180. But I believe there are nuances to how to detach, GAL and 180 that need to be sensitive to each situation and timing, especially since we are still separated in-house.
What has happened practically?
- I decided to keep my wedding band on for myself.
- I've stopped pleading/reasoning, and have detached & GAL.
- W is taking small incremental steps to independence and filing D.
I expect more hell to break loose, as my W slowly and incrementally realizes the practical consequences of a D.
From the end of my previous thread:
How are you going today Gump,
I went for a run this morning and when I got back home I sat on my back deck in the glorious sun that is very rare in the middle of winter, I closed my eyes and felt the most at peace I have in many many months.
It's the little things.
Albac -- thanks for asking. I was actually going to post something EXACTLY like this myself two nights ago.
I went for a relatively long run, and it totally felt meditative to me, and the last couple of hundred yards, where I was drenched in sweat, I felt at peace with my own situation. I was not free of sadness, but I felt good that I was doing everything within my power and within my awareness to deal with this tough part of life, and that felt good for me.
Yes, it is the little things ... that help you see the big picture.
I hope you are doing OK my friend.
- I've stopped pleading/reasoning, and have detached & GAL.
Gump - Thanks for the update...hang in there
Have you noticed any small changes from W with your detachment, GAL and/or 180's
Hi Gump, sounds like your GAL activities are working for you!
When you say hell will break lose when she realises the practical consequences of D, I would have thought that as she wants D she would be aware of that by now? Do in think she is just looking at the legal/paperwork side and not what this will actually mean to you as people/couple/family?
Have you noticed any small changes from W with your detachment, GAL and/or 180's
Very small changes. She has actually commented on some of the changes -- in some cases, she has noticed on just a superficial level that I'm doing some things differently. Me detaching from her has resulted in a bit more friendliness and chattiness. Has it done anything to change the overall course of D? No. But it has helped me see that our old marriage was doomed and dead, and that I need to move forward. Easy to say, not easy to actually live day by day.
Hi Gump, sounds like your GAL activities are working for you!
When you say hell will break lose... Do in think she is just looking at the legal/paperwork side and not what this will actually mean to you as people/couple/family?
Yes, GAL is working for
me, but it ain't doin nothin for the marriage. (But the old marriage is dead, anyway, right?).
Re: hell breaking loose ... I don't think she has a realistic view of the consequences of a D on her/our finances, our daily schedules, and on our kids' mental/emotional health. Right now, she is in a heavy fog, created by the need to jettison the source of her unhappiness (me), and find the next guy(s) who will bring her excitement and happiness.
(((Gump))), I think I've heard it said here so many times but we don't want our old marriage back anyway and that's what I keep telling myself. This is a chance for a brand new relationship to build from the foundation up. Get rid if all those crumbling bricks of your old marriage this is what we are all aiming for.
I must say although you end on a negative the start of your post does sound quite positive, especially if she is noticing the changes. If she is like me she might be a bit stubborn and so it may take a while for her to admit those positive changes are making a difference and maybe that's why she is ploughing on with D.
I wish I had your strength to carry on with all GAL activities, at the moment I'm struggling with it all and instead of it getting better I think I'm getting worse (my stubbornness coming out again!). It could just be a symptom of going dark as I actually feel like some sort of drug addict having withdrawal symptoms (never taken drugs so not sure if I am just trivialising how withdrawal feels!). ! I know that's probably considered as codependency but it's so damn hard to shake it off....
Keep doing what you are doing because you seem to be getting some small results. As they say baby steps....
Gump,
The way you explain what has gone on so far and the causes for your current sitch sounds so much like mine it is scary.
We both need to move forward and be strong. Hopefully our W's will realize what they have destroyed and want to make it work, either way we can only work on making ourselves ok with either outcome so we can truly be at peace.
When I think about it hard right now and ask myself what I want more, my W back or my sanity and to be at peace? I know what the answer is straight away I want to feel alive again.
Coly23, I appreciate your note. Every little support & encouragement helps.
I wish I had your strength to carry on with all GAL activities, at the moment I'm struggling with it all and instead of it getting better I think I'm getting worse ...
I don't think my GAL has been all that great. I just take more time to do little things -- going for a run or playing music or running a small errand for myself. I'm just initiate for myself more, and do it more frequently. Though they are little things, I just think about what
*I* want to do, rather than thinking about what W might want me/us to do. I have been trying to set up some bigger GAL outings, but hasn't quite worked out due to the schedules of my friends.
Still working on it... (but seriously, I don't expect my W to be affected much by this. It's for my own mental health.)
Hopefully our W's will realize what they have destroyed and want to make it work...
That is a really alluring thought, and I still wish that to some degree. But there is also a somewhat different wish: I hope my W will get to a mentally and emotionally healthy place. And from that healthy place, she will still see me, and that I will be a healthy, attractive person to her.
Probably too much to wish for...
Hopefully our W's will realize what they have destroyed and want to make it work...
That is a really alluring thought, and I still wish that to some degree. But there is also a somewhat different wish: I hope my W will get to a mentally and emotionally healthy place. And from that healthy place, she will still see me, and that I will be a healthy, attractive person to her.
Probably too much to wish for...
FG - that's a completely honest and altruistic wish, why would it be too much? I don't know if I would use the word 'wish', but what you said is certainly something I would prefer. But the premise is that WW is a mother to my S4 and I want her to be healthy if for no other reason than him. I would like to a part of it, but if I can be, I can know he is in good hands w/out me.
Stay strong my brother.
(((Gump))), I think I've heard it said here so many times but we don't want our old marriage back anyway and that's what I keep telling myself. This is a chance for a brand new relationship to build from the foundation up. Get rid if all those crumbling bricks of your old marriage this is what we are all aiming for.
It could just be a symptom of going dark as I actually feel like some sort of drug addict having withdrawal symptoms (never taken drugs so not sure if I am just trivialising how withdrawal feels!). ! I know that's probably considered as codependency but it's so damn hard to shake it off....
Coly23 - that's right, the old marriages were bad, new ones are needed. The morning WW and I decided to separate I told her one thing was for certain, "our old marriage is dead".
I have taken a whole lot of drugs in my life and am now quite sober from them. Sadly, it took WW's A & our S to get me there, but silver linings right? Anyway I digress, your statement is not trivial, it's true. Today was my first NC day w/ WW and a vast majority of the day I was quite happy about it, but there were brief interludes where my mind was full on wanting to contact - things is, I have not initiated a day's contact since late April I believe. That's addiction works, any kind, you get to where days are better than they were, but sometimes a little devil plops on your shoulder and says, "what if you just..."
FG - that's a completely honest and altruistic wish, why would it be too much?
It feels too much because ... of the way she is. I believe there are deep root causes for her being a WW/MLC now, and it's difficult to imagine her going to a healthy place, unless she somehow wakes up decides to seek some professional help (I'm talking about IC, not MC), which she has refused so far.
Yesterday after dinner, my W had a couple of drinks and wanted to vent to me about how difficult it had been for her to try to get her career jump started. I usually just clean up after dinner and go spend time w/ my kids or by myself, because I want to detach and I don't want to be her neutered BFF. But this time she really appeared to want to engage me in a conversation, and I thought it might be a chance for me to offer some validation, and a chance to do a bit of 180 where I paid good attention to her while she expressed herself and her emotions (which I sometimes did not do a good job of, in preceding years).
I think I did only a fair job at validating. It's hard for me to do it, w/o feeling like I'm sounding fake. Anyway, I think it's dawning on her -- at least momentarily -- how difficult the path ahead of her is, and she was discouraged. I don't really expect this to be much of a wake up call, because she's not very materialistic (a trait I love about her, if not taken to an extreme), and is willing to sacrifice material wealth/comfort for her emotional needs. I don't know, I just don't see her attraction for me welling up because all of a sudden she realizes she needs to rely on me financially.
The conversation turned to one of her friends, who I believe has been at best an encouraging echo chamber with respect to my W becoming WW/MLC; and at worst a fire-setter. I have zero respect for this friend because she's a habitual liar, is having an A w/ a married man, is an unprincipled and crappy (single) parent, and a crappy daughter to her elderly parents. I had resented this woman for a while, so when the chance came up, I stated in no uncertain terms what I think about her, and while I talking about how she treats her parents, I suddenly choked up so I just got up and left the room, then went for a run. Today she mentioned to me that she agrees with me on my assessment of this friend, and that she intends to curtail her friendship with this woman. I'm not sure if this is a good or a bad thing. My IC will probably chastise me for playing a parental role to my W. She might be right.
On a different note ... I put on some old Dave Matthews Band while playing w/ my S after dinner -- I don't listen to them very often -- and one of the songs just took me back to the feeling I had when I first met my W. That intense, satisfying physical intimacy that makes the air feel thicker, makes you feel the heart in your chest, and makes every nerve ending in your body vibrate. I haven't had that feeling for many years, and it made me think that's what she's craving, that's what she's tasted w/ her EA (PA?), and that's what's driving her down the path to a D.
Hi Gump, did she end her EA? I'm no expert and I am sure Sandi would have her thoughts on this but do you think at the moment (and sorry if I sound harsh) she is mourning the EA that is why she is still on the path to D?
I couldn't do half of what you do. You have been in-house sep since mid 2016. I was in-house for 5 months and being around her everyday i couldn't detach at all, it kept me attracted and desiring her, hoping and mind reading even though i was going dim and GAL.
Have you detached?
You are doing a great job Gump,
It's not easy we all know that. I can't imagine what it would be like to be in house separated, as my W left the day after she told me she had enough.
Seeing my W even now makes things so much harder! I haven't seen or spoken to W in 2 days and it has been the most peaceful I have felt in a long time.
NC is helping me so much and I THINK it is having an effect on my W she is still trying to instigate contact daily and I ignore it.
Your W doesn't sound sure about what she wants. Mine knew she wanted out and she left straight away. I just don't know what goes through the head of someone who says they want out but stays. I didn't see any of the signs that my W was distancing herself and gearing up for separation.
It's such a hard situation for you but everything you are doing and saying I think is the best you can do. Keep it up Gump just show her you are the happy independent man only a fool would leave and hide the broken empty inside that we are all feeling. If anything feels fake I find it helps to think about things that make me truly believe what I'm doing.
Like I feel bad going NC because I love her and I know that. So I think in my head she doesn't love me and wants someone else. That makes it so much easier for me to not want to speak to her, because in my head I picture a women that is being fake to me in trying to get my attention to make her feel better. I'm never angry , mean or show that I'm hurting I just keep it short and sweet all smiles but always get away as fast as I can.
Stay strong Gump.
ForGump -- outstanding work! It sounds to me like you handled things like a pro.
Dear SANDI2 or anyone else who would care to speculate/discuss:
a) What is the difference between WW and MLC?
b) I can see that someone having a MLC is very likely to become a WW/WH, though it's not absolutely necessary. For example, an MLC can just get a red sports car, take a backpack trip across the globe, and be done w/ his/her MLC. But can a spouse be a WW/WH without having a MLC? If it's not MLC that's driving a person into WW/WH, what's driving them?
Gump,
I'd be happy to answer your questions about the differences between a MLCer and WAS. Later on tonight will give you a more detailed response.
Be in touch soon.
a) What is the difference between WW and MLC?
b) I can see that someone having a MLC is very likely to become a WW/WH, though it's not absolutely necessary. For example, an MLC can just get a red sports car, take a backpack trip across the globe, and be done w/ his/her MLC. But can a spouse be a WW/WH without having a MLC? If it's not MLC that's driving a person into WW/WH, what's driving them?
Dooooooooooode! I did all that work on my thread man...page 1, go back and re-read it. I have MLC stuff and reasons for an A that happen w/ or w/out MLC. I also have some other stuff to post once my thread hits 100 and resets (PS, I'm at 98, so go there and find two things to say so I can re-start). And....b/c Wonka is a wordsmithing Samurai and Sandi is the hammer of truth, I would also like to read their input.
Also:
The conversation turned to one of her friends, who I believe has been at best an encouraging echo chamber with respect to my W becoming WW/MLC; and at worst a fire-setter. I have zero respect for this friend because she's a habitual liar, is having an A w/ a married man, is an unprincipled and crappy (single) parent, and a crappy daughter to her elderly parents.
First - one cannot be encouraged to have an MLC, and MLC either will or will not occur. All of us however, will face thoughts of mortality, value, and purpose in middle age, does not mean an MLC. But, this dirt bag could encourage negative behaviors that your WW presents as wanting justification on, regardless of her being a WW w/or w/out MLC.
MY WW has two best friends living in her hometown. One of them recently told her H who was going thru a depression that if he did not get better and have ML w/ she would go out and find it. The other is M w/ a dude that she began an office affair with while his W was pregnant w/ twins. So, think my WW gets encouraged w/ all the need freedom, not built for marriage, have a right to my own body bullsht from those two? Bet your a*s. Also why her BF's who took my side are not being spoken w/ at this time.
"MY WW has two best friends living in her hometown."
Sounds like your W has friends like my W's. Horrible people that add more poison to the sitch. Tsk..I bet they would all float - fetch me my ducking stool now!
How do you know how many are on your thread? i.e 98??
How do you know how many are on your thread? i.e 98??
By default we get 10 posts per page. So if you 10 pages on your thread, and the last page has 8 posts, you've got 98.
BTW, you can change # of posts per page by going to "My Stuff" -> "Edit Preferences"
I'd be happy to answer your questions about the differences between a MLCer and WAS. Later on tonight will give you a more detailed response.
Wonka: I'd like to understand the difference between an
MLC and
WW, i.e., wayward -- not walkaway/WAS. Thanks. I look forward to your post.
My W seems to fit the model, "she's having a MLC, which led her to become wayward." I'm wondering if she might be just WW without the MLC component.
I realize these are just models of people's complex personalities and behaviors, but it helps me think and understand what's going on.
Hi Gump, did she end her EA? I'm no expert and I am sure Sandi would have her thoughts on this but do you think at the moment (and sorry if I sound harsh) she is mourning the EA that is why she is still on the path to D?
It's not harsh -- but I need harsh right now to stay on track, to stay strong.
The two EA's noted in my sig were w/ the same guy and both were delusional, one-sided infatuations. Although they were one-sided fantasies, they were emotionally full-blown infatuations. Anyhow, those particular EA ended.
Judging by her secretiveness w/ her computer use and cell phone use, I think there is another EA or a PA. I think a PA is somewhat unlikely but I don't want to be so naive to say it's not possible. If a PA, it was/is one-evening type of stuff, not repeated. I have not snooped so I don't know anything.
The EA's gave my W a taste of what romantic/sexual excitement is like outside of our boring marriage, so I think that's what drives her to pursue a D.
In my own mind, not quite. When I'm away from home, I don't count the hours pining for her. But at home, every time I see her or smell her in a room, my mind goes crazy wanting her. I
SWEAR she is pumping out pheromones because she's a WW on the prowl.
But I think I've done a fair job of
appearing detached. I have not talked about R at all. I don't initiate conversations other than friendly greetings when I come and go. Don't initiate text or emails, except brief ones regarding children and family dinners.
FG. Get the wanting. Giving 'not a sh!t' is they key and staying distant. Small things like her smelling good, looking good, being nice etc will pull you back. But don't allow it.
First learn stand, then learn fly. Nature rule Daniel son, not mine” - Mr. Miyagi
Looking forward to hearing Wonka. If this was 'pay per view' I would subscribe - at market affordable rates of course....
Hilarious. Found loads of Mr Miyagi quotes. Yoda is next... Lol.
Either you karate [DB] do "yes" or karate [DB] do "no." You karate [DB] do "guess so," (get squished) just like grape." - Mr. Miyagi
Surfer,
Pay per-view? You got that right! It's over at the Madison Garden!
Gump,
I am baaack!
I went back to your first thread and found this quote from you:
Thanks for explaining WW vs. WAS and sexual attraction. It helps me think through my own issues. FWIW, I think in my situation... my W is a mix of WW and MLC, with a splash of WAS. I guess I'm not sure what the main difference is between WW and MLC. Can't WW and MLC co-exist?
Next is from the most recent posting:
Wonka: I'd like to understand the difference between an MLC and WW, i.e., wayward -- not walkaway/WAS. Thanks. I look forward to your post.
My W seems to fit the model, "she's having a MLC, which led her to become wayward." I'm wondering if she might be just WW without the MLC component.
Gump, I can tell you with a pretty much 100% certainty that your W does not have MLC. As a reformed former bad-ass MLCer, I have assisted some newbies in the Newcomers forum by sending them over to the MLC forum because I could see very clearly that their WAS was in MLC.
To be clear, your W isn't both WW and MLC. It just cannot be done. Yes, MLCers can be WAS, but not WW.
I trust that you have read up Sandi's threads on WW. In essence, WW's are filled with resentment, rebellion, and contempt as a result of several factors such as: 1-unfulfilled expectations, 2-unrealistic expectations of a M, 3-feeling the burden of carrying the M on their backs, and/or 4-experiencing a series of disappointments that slowly erodes their love for their husbands.
In a WW scenario, their loving feelings for the H declines over a period of time and their own general hopelessness about the M begins to slide slowly into serious disenchantment. This is when the nagging stops because they have completely given up on the M. THIS IS WHERE the danger line is and the LBHs trip up big time over this because they erroneously think that the M is in a better place because the nagging has stopped. Whooops! BIG MISTAKE! Why? This is when the WW begins to withdraw all of her affections from the H and enters into the dangerous waters of fantasizing about other men that is supposedly able to fulfill all of her needs.
Cue OM on the stage. Then the WWs switch their allegiances, emotions, and heart over to the OM. This is when they are sucked into the heroin phase. They know what they're doing is very wrong, but keep doing it because of the "hit" it provides them thus giving them an unnatural high. Then you couple that addiction with their inner rebellion and contempt for the LBH. A potent mix for sure!
MLC? That's another ball of wax all together!
A word to the wise here---scratch that god-awful cliche about the middle-aged bald guy driving way in a red Ferrari with a young 20-something! That is the Paramount Pictures manufactured version of MLC.
eye rollThe signposts of a true MLCer are the following characteristics:
-Number #1: Experienced the death of a loved one (99.9% MLCers have faced a signficant loss such as a close relative, best friend, or someone they hold dear in their hearts)
-Empty, dead shark-eyes look
-Memory lapses
-A deep-seated drive to "escape" from the pressures of M
-Recreate their childhood/teenage years where they were emotionally stunted (I acted like a 12-year old during my own MLC and had OW)
-Many will go through various "personality" changes through dress styles, hairstyles, experimentation with all sorts of things that are truly out of the ordinary
-Racing thoughts into the night
-Acute case of extreme tiredness
-Inexplicable restlessness
-Irrational thinking/irrational talks
-Coping skills are shot
-Empathy chip is severely cracked
Regardless of a WW, WAS, or MLCer, the underlying DBing principles applies to all three situations. The only difference is, in my view, that the WW needs a firm hand and a strong set of personal boundaries to head off their god-awful rebellious behaviors. Those WWs need to feel a real, genuine loss of the M *
FIRST* before they are jolted out of their wayward mindset.
MLCers, on the other hand, couldn't care less about the loss of the M because they desperately WANT to
escape the M and need a lot of time to work through their unresolved issues from their childhood/teenage years. Which is why many vets over in the MLC caution DBers that it could take years and years before they come out of MLC. Sadly, in some cases, they remain stuck and never come out of MLC.
In short, WW and MLC cannot co-exist. It is not scientifically or biologically possible at all.
I hope this helps in understanding the differences between a WW and a MLCer.
Wax on, wax off
To be clear, your W isn't both WW and MLC. It just cannot be done. Yes, MLCers can be WAS, but not WW.
I trust that you have read up Sandi's threads on WW.
Wonka,
I hadn't thought of it that way. I can understand why you would take this position. I can tell that you are really serious about this, but I may need a bit more time to think about it, yet I do have to say I feel differently.
Kidding, hope you took it as such, you are a master. Must bring 2x4 out though.
Seriously - Wonka major respect for you, learned much from you, but- have got to disagree.
WAS is the walk away spouse who does not leave the M for another man. So, yes, the MLC may not be leaving for the OM, an OM does not have to be present for an MLC to occur, but w/ many MLC's another partner is present and that makes the difference between a WAW MLC and a WW MLC. Here is the opening from Sandi's differential in the HW assigned to all newbies by Cadet:
Sandi2:
"I have started using the term wayward when posting about a wife involved in an A. Mainly b/c I feel that there is a major difference in the heart of a woman who does not have sights on another man and leaves the M for other reasons .....compared to the heart of one who has eyes for another man or who wants to conduct herself as though she were some wild, single girl looking for fun. It came to my attention some time back that there was some confusion, and I personally think it has to do with these two different women."
An OM/OH can and will often be a portion of the MLC just as easily as the ILBNILWY statement, the feeling of no love for the H from the start, and the M was wrong can be germane statements for both WAW and WW. These symptoms may overlap and be components of each; no differently than someone can be bipolar w/ suicidal idealization or be bipolar w/out suicidal idealization. There is an overwhelming amount of data showing that MLC often involves an OM/OW and that it was a contributor to the W/H being wayward. Yes, I agree w/ you the impetus was a mental disorder we know as MLC which included or did not include an A as but one symptom among many, but I contest you find many MLC research results which have an A listed as a normal and likely symptoms.
That said, your list of true MLC was correct. My WW has most of what you put below and then some. However, one does not require 10:10, 9:10 or even 8:10 symptotms to be categorized as all in or all out, the statistical break is usually around 30% to be in a club. I posted on a thread where my WW was absent of many if not most of the true A WW characteristics and why I believe she is MLC, but she is also definitely in an A, which definitely played a role in our S (albeit not as great of a role as her childhood, youth behavior, and escapism did), which meets Sandi's def. of the WW. Overlap exists by definition of symptoms. I agree, I do not think ForGump's WW is also MLC by way of his description(s).
Regardless of a WW, WAS, or MLCer, the underlying DBing principles applies to all three situations. The only difference is, in my view, that the WW needs a firm hand and a strong set of personal boundaries to head off their god-awful rebellious behaviors. Those WWs need to feel a real, genuine loss of the M *FIRST* before they are jolted out of their wayward mindset.
MLCers, on the other hand, couldn't care less about the loss of the M because they desperately WANT to escape the M and need a lot of time to work through their unresolved issues from their childhood/teenage years. Which is why many vets over in the MLC caution DBers that it could take years and years before they come out of MLC. Sadly, in some cases, they remain stuck and never come out of MLC.
This is true, which is why on my thread I spoke to changing my game up. My WW's childhood rules her day, and I speak heavily to the fact that she has claimed A means nothing, is BS, etc - repeated it many times, but she is still in an A, still meets WW definition as I first understood it here, per Sandi's distinction in my HW.
In short, WW and MLC cannot co-exist. It is not scientifically or biologically possible at all.
There is no scientific definition of WW. It has been stated here many times that the term was created on this board. Sandi speaks to that, she mentioned it on one of my threads a few days ago. I would loosely lend scientific license to WAW as MWD is a master's degree in social work who performed research on the condition, but do feel that is a stretch. MLC however is a well studied physiological disorder as it deals with brain functions and psychologically in terms of the interaction with the worldly experience around it combined with how those brain will process said interactions. As I understand, WW is a term assigned to indicative behavior for a person who has left their partner to become involved in a non-marital relationship w/ another - WAW is a term assigned to indicative behavior for a person who has left their partner for reasons homogeneous to that specific relationship alone. MLC is a medically classified brain disorder incumbent to the way some human brains process the natural human life sequence of reaching an understood point between birth and death which may include a gambit of symptoms that could or could not mimic those attributes associated with what we know here as WAW and/or WW. The WW and WAW are merely traits affiliated with certain behavior characteristics in a given situation while the MLC is abnormal response to a normal physiological process - coexistence is scientifically possible.
All that said, I feel like you and I just cut a single hair down the middle. Hope you know its all for understanding and its all for knowledge. Plus I got the feeling you have forgotten more about DB than I will ever retain. Thanks Wonka.
CT,
Thanks for offering your perspectives on what you view as WAS, WW, and MLC.
For me, I speak from experience as a former MLCer and helped a lot of posters over in the MLC forum. Not all MLCers have OW/OM. The vast majority of them do because they feel dead inside the M and seek outside sources as a way to find "happiness" when in reality it comes from within all along. It took me a few years to really recognize my own MLC, come to terms with my journey into the MLC abyss, and forgive myself for whatever perceived 'mistakes' I have made throughout the journey.
Please understand that MLC is not on any of the APA or DSM-VI list of 'disorders' because many of the psychologists, often, either dismiss them as pure fiction that those people come up to with to evade personal responsibility or do not support the existence of MLC. It took one guy who actually went through his own MLC and wrote a book on his own experiences.
Now as for the WW label that is being used in recent time, full credit must go to Sandi for coining the term to differentiate from a WAS. Many WASes DO have A's and there have been some WASes who did not engage in an A although that is a rarity here in the DB forums. The key point that Sandi wants to drive through the many poor LBHs who stumble around here when dealing with a WW is their
wayward mindset that is filled with
true contempt for their LBHs. So both WW and a WAS (regardless if it is a female or male) can engage in As....however, the operative word is the "mindset."
Sandi is really helpful in decoding the mind of a WW to LBHs here for she does speak the language as a former WW.
On the other hand, I can pretty much decode the mind of a MLCer and a WAH. Some DBers probably can attest that I have supported many LBW with a WAH because I can (and) do think like a man. Many other DBers have contributed as well by sharing their experiences and wisdom.
WW=anger, contempt, rebellion
MLCer=lost, scared, confused
This ^^^ is why I stake my own claim that a WW-MLCer cannot co-exist based on my own personal experience and from hanging out at the MLC pool (aka forum) over the past 10 years or so. No, I have "not forgotten more about DB" at all.
As I understand, WW is a term assigned to indicative behavior for a person who has left their partner to become involved in a non-marital relationship w/ another - WAW is a term assigned to indicative behavior for a person who has left their partner for reasons homogeneous to that specific relationship alone.
WAW/WAS do leave the M for their AP. It is not an exclusive domain of the WW. Again, I point you to Sandi's view of what constitutes a WW:
wayward mindset filled with near complete contempt and disrespect for the LBH [emphasis is mine]. These are outwardly manifested actions through raging, deliberate manipulation of the LBH's emotions to get what they want, and behaving & speaking in disrespectful ways.
MLC is a medically classified brain disorder incumbent to the way some human brains process the natural human life sequence of reaching an understood point between birth and death which may include a gambit of symptoms that could or could not mimic those attributes associated with what we know here as WAW and/or WW.
How do you know this? What 'medical' sources can support that ^^ statement/assertion?
For me, I am very much inclined to agree to a MLC-WAW pairing than MLC-WW pairing due to the attendant factors of the individual's mindset as explained in this current post and my earlier post.
Once again, I stress that MLC is not/has not been officially recognized as a so-called "medical disorder."
Perhaps Cadet or Job could post links to my threads titled "Informal Poll on MLC" and "A Voyage Into the Mind of MLC" (the first thread) that, hopefully, will give readers a much more broader understanding of the MLC mind.
Thank you for the thoughtful points, CT. This is a great learning process for all of us...I am still learning from you and others. Thank you for sharing.
Wonka & CT1118 -- great posts, a great discussion. Your ideas really help me think things through.
Please forgive the clinical and academic nature of my ramblings below. This is my way of digesting everything I've been reading here, and to process what that means for my situation. My hope is that thinking this through would help me DB better. I'm not certain that it will, but I won't know unless I try.
My philosophy is that while it's helpful to come up with categories, ultimately human psychology is diverse and complex enough that individual psychologies and behavior patterns often do not fit neatly into categories.
1) WW & WAS vs. MLC
The main idea I learned from reading Wonka's post is that both WW and WAS value marriage as an institution, and their actions (going wayward or walking away) reflect their disappointment/disillusionment in something they WANT to value, something they "believe in." They are not having an identity crisis as a spouse. They WANT to be a spouse, just not to a bad or incompatible husband. In contrast, an MLCer is at a place where she does not particularly value marriage. She is not motivated by MARRIAGE not delivering what she wanted; she is motivated by the feeling that LIFE ITSELF has not yet delivered all she thought it should. They are having a type of identity crisis, about whether they want to be a spouse at all, and the feelings are strongly tied to their age and their aging physiology.
2) WW vs. WAS
Furthermore, I learned that the difference between WW and WAS is not just that WW involves an affair. There is a difference in attitude and maturity. WW's fog includes a strong dose of childlike rebelliousness, whereas WAS's sentiment is more of a capitulation. It's not all that irrational to give up after a long, losing battle with a bad marriage or a bad spouse.
Here is Wonka's list of risk factors leading to WW:
> 1-unfulfilled expectations,
> 2-unrealistic expectations of a M,
> 3-the burden of carrying the M on their backs, and
> 4-experiencing a series of disappointments that slowly erodes their love.
I think #1 and #4 are very rational phenomena, while #2 and #3 have unreasonable or unwise elements (boldfaced). If we fix the unreasonable elements, we could arrive at a list of risk factors for WAS:
> 1-unfulfilled expectations,
> 2-realistic expectations of M are unmet for a very long time,
> 3-spouse fails to carry his share of burden to keep M healthy, and
> 4-experiencing a series of disappointments that slowly erodes their love.
So, I would argue that a WW is someone who holds significantly immature views of how marriage works and how to address marital problems, and who reacts in an immature way to long-standing frustrations.
In contrast, I would say that a WAS is someone who has a fairly reasonable view of marriage, who is reacting fairly reasonably to a bad or incompatible partner (i.e., finally giving up) after trying to make it better for a long time.
I'm not saying WAS has done everything right -- just that relative to the WW, she has made fairly normal, mature efforts for a long time, and the problem is more with the spouse than w/ the WAS.
3) Is my wife WW or WAS?
Of Wonka's four WW risk factors, I believe my W has:
> 1-unfulfilled expectations,
> 2-unrealistic expectations of a M,
> 4-experiencing a series of disappointments that slowly erodes their love
And the emotional path she took also fits the one described by Wonka for WW:
> Their loving feelings for the H declines over a period of time.
> The WW enters into ... fantasizing about other men
> Cue OM on the stage. ... They are sucked into the heroin phase.
So my W fits WW fairly well ... but not perfectly. I think her expectations of M were not 100% unrealistic, maybe 80% unrealistic. And I think I did fail in small but significant ways to carry the burden. And I think her waywardness hasn't been 100% rebellious and immature. It has at least a certain layer of maturity and civility to it.
Since WW traits dominate, however, I'm OK to just call it WW.
3) Is my wife WW or MLC?
I must agree with CT1118 here, that WW and MLC are not perfectly exclusive. I don't think my W clearly accepts or rejects marriage. I think she feels both. She has said "maybe marriage isn't for me," but I think that was when she was feeling acutely guilty for giving up on our marriage which she recognizes has very good aspects. But I think she also believes that there is a better spouse out there for her. I think she is consciously or subconsciously replaying her mother's life, who went wayward in her 40's and after several years found a long-term second husband. So my W both wants and doesn't want marriage.
There is another strong argument for MLC: my W fears becoming middle-aged. She has expressed the disappointment in not being noticed by men any more, in losing the ability to have more children, and in the fear of having to go through peri-menopause and menopause.
So, I think there is a strong MLC component to my W.
4) What about psychological conditions and disorders?
I think BPD, narcissism, anxiety and depression all accentuate and exacerbate the problematic aspects of WW and MLC.
I think BPD helped my W and I fall in love faster, even though we have strong incompatibilities that should have given us pause. I think BPD and narcissism (both are rooted in intense insecurity) foster highly unrealistic views of marriage. I think BPD, narcissism and anxiety prevented my W from confronting and talking about problems in our marriage. I think narcissism and anxiety prevented us from finding and getting good quality individual and couples counseling. I think BPD worked as an incendiary agent when OM appeared on the scene and my wife fell into an EA -- it was a delusional fantasy, enabled by BPD and narcissism. I think BPD, narcissism and depression all accentuate her age-based MLC: her fear of losing attention from men, her fear of losing the ability to bear children, and her fear of becoming old.
5) My role
I don't want to write something so long and detailed without acknowledging, as honest as I can, my role in all of this. I acknowledged my failings in my marriage to a friend the other day, and she thought it sounded a little insincere. Well, I was sincere. Maybe I will learn more through this forum and through therapy, but I'm trying to be fully honest. This is from post #1 of this thread:
- I did suffocate her with too much attention.
- I did slide into a mothering role by helping her with everything she could not do for herself.
- I did emasculate myself by avoiding conflict w/ my W.
- I did emasculate myself by not letting my own character stand strong.
- I also failed often to tune into her emotional life and connect to her emotionally.
- I also failed often to tune into her sexual needs and connect better sexually.
I want to add to it:
- I saw some warning signs when we first fell in love, but I was in a fog (felt good!!!) so I did not slow down to understand the issues better.
- I failed to talk to my W about realistic and unrealistic expectations about M.
- I failed to see clearly her discontentment with our marriage.
- I failed to see clearly her fear of aging and mid-life.
6) How does this affect my DB?
I believe my W is mostly WW with a minor but strong MLC component, all exacerbated by BPD, narcissism, anxiety and depression. The fact that she doesn't seem to have a full blown MLC gives me a little hope. Maybe she won't be stuck in MLC for five years! On the other hand, the influence of BPD, narcissism, anxiety and depression are long-term, and unlikely to go away unless she, somehow, is treated professionally. And it's a catch-22: those conditions are themselves preventing her from getting help.
But, it's not all black-and-white. It's a matter of degrees. There is a possibility that the fog of WW might clear when the reality of a D hits. I think my W actually leans more towards believing in M, rather than not. I think I should keep working on being a lighthouse: the H that a woman would be a fool to divorce. I will have to keep reflecting on all of this.
CT,
Thanks for offering your perspectives on what you view as WAS, WW, and MLC.
And to you as well
Please understand that MLC is not on any of the APA or DSM-VI list of 'disorders' because many of the psychologists, often, either dismiss them as pure fiction that those people come up to with to evade personal responsibility or do not support the existence of MLC. It took one guy who actually went through his own MLC and wrote a book on his own experiences.
Correct, MLC is not listed as a brain disorder there. Also, correct, the MLC is roughly considered a theoretical model to explain an physiological series of existential events which may or may not result in having classifiable mental disorders. However, it is being scientifically acknowledged that the subject of MLC, especially in females, requires significantly more research and little is know/understood beyond observational research which has medically cataloged and published. I shortened all of the above to 'disorder'. Perhaps I contributed to confusion by doing so.
On the WW/WAW - I have clearly misunderstood the terms and affiliated the presence of an A solely w/ WW and not w/ WAW, overlooked the contempt, anger, rebellion as being a necessary component of WW, and now realize I have not only misapplied the term WW to my own sitch, but potentially on others. Tremendous thank you for clearing this up for me. I assure you my WAW (see, learn quick) is scared, lost, and confused - all of those words coming from her own mouth and then some while offering me any attempt to explain how she feels.
[quote=CT1118]MLC is a medically classified brain disorder incumbent to the way some human brains process the natural human life sequence of reaching an understood point between birth and death which may include a gambit of symptoms that could or could not mimic those attributes associated with what we know here as WAW and/or WW.
How do you know this? What 'medical' sources can support that ^^ statement/assertion?
Hopefully I explained above adequately enough to answer this question.
Nice exchange and thank you for it. Now, I hope you will assist me w/ my sitch from time to time as I am fully vested in your MLC experience.
This is a really interesting discussion. It is causing me to question my assumption that my W is a WW. She's not really "rebellious" at all and, most times, isn't angry at all (really just when I used to try to force R talks). She essentially just quit on our marriage and doesn't think there's anything (including MC or working with me) that would cause her to change her mind. She's sort of the opposite of rash or quick to act, having given me a two-year "head's up" that I'll not be married then.
Even if true, I'm not sure of the practical importance, other than it might suggest a little softer touch than sandi frequently urges w/r/t WWs.
This stuff is really hard.
Thanks man. "This stuff is really hard" got me again, I laughed out loud.
I seem to be bouncing between soft and hard approach. That has mostly depended upon what I feel I have the energy for. I seem to get some results either way that I do not consider to be negative. My WAW ( I guess, now? I'll go w/ that) has never been negative or aggressive at me. Rebellious? I don't think so, I mean, unless having an A falls in there; but she has not refused to pick up kid or pay bills type stuff.
My W fits about 95% of Sandi's posts as WW. She was aggressive, fake cried to hit my emotions to get what she wanted, called me names, everything. The reason I believe the A has ended is not only the early July breakdown, but the way she talks to and treats me. It's getting better, softer, more respectful. She's not rebelling against me so much like before, it's more of against the status of W/Family. Thus, the new tattoos, hair and other forms of personal expression. She's a so-called free spirit....
She'll argue things with me, in a pretty decent way, but now that I stand up for myself again she backs down and agrees mostly. It's still mostly about her, but the Mom instincts are coming back and every once in a while she's decent towards me. Not to say sometimes THAT isn't for her either (ie be nice, DEMAND stuff in return) but treating me better than she has in a good while. I know I have got to continue NOT showing anger, or she'll bolt.
I feel like I have a frightened squirrel about 10 miles away, but it's so keen and scared any sudden movement will be spotted!
She's not really "rebellious" at all ... given me a two-year "head's up" that I'll not be married then.
I think "mature and reasonable" is a good dimension to consider in a W who is going down the D path. On one end of that spectrum is "immature and rebellious" and on the other end is "mature and reasonable.
It seems to me that most people will exhibit a mix of both "mature and reasonable" and "immature and rebellious" reactions to a dissatisfying marriage.
The two-year countdown has a veneer of reasonableness to it, but I think it's at its core unreasonable and immature. If she's willing to share a life with you for two years, she should be willing to have conversations about your marriage like two mature adults.
The reason I believe the A has ended is not only the early July breakdown, but the way she talks to and treats me. It's getting better, softer, more respectful.
RSG - Sorry to throw cold water on this but I had the same belief for the same reasons and was very very wrong. You might be right but without her actually saying it's over and being transparent you could also be wrong.
The reason I believe the A has ended is not only the early July breakdown, but the way she talks to and treats me. It's getting better, softer, more respectful.
RSG - Sorry to throw cold water on this but I had the same belief for the same reasons and was very very wrong. You might be right but without her actually saying it's over and being transparent you could also be wrong.
RSG - I gotta back up Andrew P on this one. My S went down end of Feb. By May, she was telling me things like "I enjoy being single" "free of relationships", spoke about him in past tense. Also the attention towards me went up, asked me on dates, made long term plans. I thought it was done, but then in late June she brought him up while her & I were having wine one night and in just one of her sentences she slipped, she us the word "is" to describe him and not "was". I caught and my suspicion grew from there until a week later when I found out dude and her were still on. Now, possible she did eject for a bit and then restart - I have not cared enough to ask.
Looks like I missed the party! I don't have much to add to what's
been said about the WW/WAW/MLC, other than telling you why I started
referring to the WW and separating them from the WAW, (and I leave the MLCers in Wonka's capable hands).
We have both been here several yrs (Wonka longer than me) and
experienced what some of you may call "the other side of the fense", meaning we were not writing as the spouse left behind.
Over the years, I had observed something in the threads from LBH'S
describing their W. I also noticed the difference in how a former LBS would advise (those who did not have a wayward spouse), and those LBS who had horrific wayward spouses. Those who did
not experience what it was like to have a WS, usually gave what I call a much softer approach.......and, to me, it seemed as if the newcomers were left feeling as if everything was their fault....and that they had to be good enough, and work hard enough, to win back the WS.....which, of course, doesn't work with waywards. This started to bother me a lot. So, I started trying to refer to those WAW's who were in an A......as to make some type of distinction. However, I
knew that a person could be wayward without necessarily being in an A. The waywardness was already in the heart before she had an A. That's why I think it is important for the H to understand the root cause (resentment, disrespect, etc.)
One day I noticed a newcomer who referred to herself as a WAW. Since
I tried to notice whenever the board had a WAW, I looked at her
thread. She was given advice as though she was the WAW, and she even
thought she qualified b/c she had walked away from her H. However, she left b/c her H was
abusive. She did not leave b/c she was wayward or in a MLC. That is when I decided to speak up about the mindset of a wayward wife. I had lived it, and I had seen years of little clarification here on the subject (at least, from the inside).........so, I just started talking about it.
There are women who leave the MR who are not wayward or having a MLC.
Just as Wonka can tell you how quickly she can spot a case of MLC, I
can usually see pretty quickly if the W is wayward. There are some cases that I have to wait for the H to give more information and description. Not that I can read hearts, mind you, but b/c the outward display is eerily similar with other WW's. As we call it, their "script". I think it is b/c of the anger, and as Wonka said, the contempt she feels for her H, and how her mindset works. She may put on a front for a while, but her attitude toward her H eventually spells it out.
In most of the threads from H's, they are reluctant to accept the idea that their W is wayward. Most think it applies only if she's in an affair, and no H wants to believe his W would be involved in an A.
Waywardness is born in the heart......before it is manifested in the actions.
FWIW, I have also noticed (IRL & the board) how the majority of WW's are M to a man who has the nice-guy syndrome. Coincidence? Maybe, but I don't think so. Anyway, it seems to be the pattern I see in newcomer threads.
(Well, aren't you glad I didn't have much to add?)
This has been all very interesting to read.
I see that my h is without a doubt a wayward, acting like a teenager. I have questioned at times wether there is or isn't a mlc element to the situation. I think because we married and started a family young sometimes this leads him to freak out at the fact he's no longer young free and single. Idk. It doesn't help that waywards surround themselves with genius friends that tell him "oh just divorce her".
Waywardness is born in the heart.... the majority of WW's are M to a man who has the nice-guy syndrome.
This really resonates with me. I think because my W has poor impulse control (BPD-like condition), being paired with me -- whom she's accused of being overly self-controlled, smothering/mothering/suffocating/sacrificing -- she's had to exert hell of a lot of self-control on herself to "keep up" with my role in the marriage. So when she finally decided she can't do it any more, there were years of frustration pent-up inside her that is fueling the waywardness, the rebellion, in her heart.
It's of course, a mixed bag. I think there is a rational part of her mind that sees the good in me and the good in our marriage. But it's mostly covered by the fog of rebellion and hope for independence and freedom from a suffocating husband, and the promise of excitement from new men out there.
Andrew, you and CT are right on. Regardless of what the truth is, I should be treating her AS IF she's doing it until she proves otherwise.
I'm wondering if I even need to see a "limited contact" email or if I should just do it. And when she asks about it the next time she drops him off, just say I think I need to start treating you like we're separated and that we contact too much when S is at home?
I think I may have been confusing detaching with reducing contact. I'm coming to see that detaching and contact are not necessarily the same, and the more effective ways to detach do not directly affect the amount of contact.
Detaching is not about how many words you say, but what emotions you communicate to your W. So, simply reducing contact does communicate something. But a more effective way to detach is to keep up roughly the same amount of contact as before, but demonstrate through those channels of communication that your emotions are detaching from the old W and divesting from the old marriage.
I'm not sure exactly how to do that. I will have to ponder. I welcome all-a-y'all's thoughts on this.
Agree with you on that Gump,
The question is how do you do this? I think it's very much what I have been doing. Stay happy, confident and don't let anything they say trip you up on the occasions you do speak. Biggest thing I am trying at the moment is to appear as if I have moved on and don't want my W when we interact.
For a long time I looked like a pitiful little puppy and that's not H material. Just visualize yourself as someone only a fool would leave and always be that person around your W and play it cool.
I think that's about all we can do. Add mystery don't give anything up and be vague when she asks what you have been doing or where you are going.
I am no expert by a long way but I think these methods are working.
Not so sure about deliberately adding mystery. That seems phony to me. Oh, but wait, I just posted something on your thread saying being phony (appearing like you've moved on) is OK! I guess being phony is second best to being genuinely OK.
I'm on an overnight trip to the beach w/ my S (D is on a different trip). I have taken my kids away from home on brief trips w/o my W, but this is the first time since D was initiated. Everything reminds me of coming here as a family. My S is having a great time, but it breaks my heart to think of what he doesn't fully realize is happening to our family. I feel like I should be angry at my W, but it just feels damn surreal, like I've stepped into an alternate universe. If I just picked up the phone and called her and gave her a full rundown of our day and ended it with "Love you, good night" it would just feel normal.
That must be tough Gump,
just enjoy the time you are having with your S and let the rest go. I know that is way easier said then done. All we can do is try.
Are there other places you can take your S for vacation? Are there new traditions you start? And it's ok to feel different things at different times, heck, I go through the full range of emotions daily. One of the most basic (but hardest) principles of DBing is forgiveness of self. If you stumble or begin to spin then just let the stuff wash over you and continue to go through the motions.
As far as being mysterious goes, just don't offer up info. If the spouse digs for it then give pieces instead of the whole story.
Back from overnight trip. W hasn't been all that friendly in general but there is an ever-so-slight ... hesitation and diminished eye-contact. Makes me feel like she really took advantage of being free last night. To be expected, but ... what can I say. Just kills me.
I don't know how all of you out there who KNOW for a fact there is an OM/OW out there handle it. Life is too fcking cruel.
Not a big fan of snooping but sometimes I wish I just knew the whole thing I would just bury my hopes once and for all.
To be honest, if there was a simple button I can press to snoop, I'd give in to the temptation. But all the plotting and sneaking and tiptoeing around just feels ... wrong. Maybe if I was a computer/phone expert...
Gump,
I have been there. Do not snoop if you can find the strength not to.
I thought about it for a while and wasn't really snooping more like just looking at what was in front of me but I found out who the OM was. I know his name I know what he looks like and you know what? That is burnt in my brain and I see it and think about it EVERYDAY you do NOT want that!!
It was the worst thing I ever did. The less you know the better because the odds are in time it will be done and he will be gone.
The other thing is I don't even care about OM I didn't need to know who he was or what he looked like because if not him it would be someone else. My W wants him it's her that is the problem not him. I imagine he will be gone within months and she will be alone. But either way not my monkeys not my circus I can only work on my life and hope she works out hers.
Stay strong.
Snooping is really bad for you FG. Like albacore, I'll never forget the messages my W sent to OM about what they would do to each other and about me. Not pleasant to thank about at all.
Hell, if you want a prime example of why not to do it, check out my thread for the past 3 days. That all spiraled bc I knew she was lying and used knowledge I had from Snooping to call her on it. I set myself back bc of it and nothing good came from it.
Better to not snoop once you know there is an AP in the mix. That's when you DB and focus on you and the kids. Let her live in the mess she's creating, no need to know the gory details.
Thanks albac and lt0402 for your admonishments about snooping. Sounds right to me.
Went for a long run in the evening cool and that cleared my head. Also thought a bit about "how long". I think I'm starting to feel some clarity there. Maybe clarity is the wrong word. But I'm starting to accept that it's open-ended, that it will be an on-going decision made by me, and that I will need to assess what kind of a man I've become or am becoming, and what kind of a woman I want. That's to CT1118 for all his thoughts on this issue -- stimulating and inspiring.
Snooping is a hot topic here, with many arguing for and against. Honestly snooping is not the issue.It is how you can handle what you find and whatyou do with your new knowledge.
Snooping has no place in a healthy R, but then most of us here don't have a healthy R. In an unhealthy R it can be useful to distinguish between WAS or WS. It can be useful if you want to find proof and confront. But that is another topic.
Snooping is very bad for the lbs. Whatever you find,your mind will twist it, exaggerate it and especially replay it over and over. That plays havoc with your mental state. I kept tabs on an inappropriate friend who turned out to be just that, though maybe more in W's head. Snooping helped me stay the course but there was a price to pay.
Now that inappropriate friend is dormant. I refuse to use the term gone as we don't know what the future holds. But things are just as bad if not worse despite his absence. So it has nothing to do with OM. It is between you and W. Obsessing on an OM is a waste of energy and time. Use that time to focus on YOU and what you can control. Work on yourself. GAL. Etc
Plus ye are separated. In house but separated. You have to get on with your life as if she is not coming back. It is the only way to survive and the only way there is a chance she will change her mind.
I would not wish in house Sep on anyone, but you can get through this. Best wishes.
PS stop mind reading... ..
roist -- I needed to hear that. Thank you.
I know my W had EA's, which ended (I know they did, long story). I think she might have another EA, possibly a PA (unlikely), but I just don't know. I just thought getting the full picture might help decimate the last pocket of hope I harbor in my heart.
But I know that the higher/better road to take is to not need that but just go my own way w/o needing that.
WW noticed I'm not catering to all her needs as before, sent me a note sounding annoyed. I told her it wasn't about her, it was about me moving forward, learning not to be mothering. She replied, "I'm glad I was interpreting things wrong, as I often do."
She apologetically asked me to make dinner (because she was working on her stuff all day), so I did and she appeared to really enjoy it, asking me lots of questions about how I made it. But couldn't really bring herself to give me compliments.
Not sure if I handled the everything well, but it all feels good. But in a temporary way, like if you were solo-sailing across the Pacific, broke a mast, ran out of water, and it rains for 10 minutes.
Note to self: steel yourself.
"Oh, where have you been, my blue-eyed son?
And where have you been my darling young one?
I've stumbled on the side of twelve misty mountains
I've walked and I've crawled on six crooked highways
I've stepped in the middle of seven sad forests
I've been out in front of a dozen dead oceans
I've been ten thousand miles in the mouth of a graveyard
And it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard, and it's a hard
It's a hard rain's a-gonna fall."
-- B.D.
You did well Gump,
Need to take things for what they are and if it's not a step backwards it's a step forward.
What you said to your W about it not being about her but about you moving forward is a good thing. Gives her something to think about and shows strength on your part.
Keep it up!
You wrote this on
lt0402's thread, but I thought I'd bring it over here...
The only way I'd change that advice would be if you have a strong aversion to affirmatively doing anything to bring about a D. Many here do.
I'm in a no-fault state. My W would like us to try to do a DIY divorce, and if we can't agree, try a mediator, and if that doesn't work use lawyers. If a D were to happen, this approach makes sense to me to the extent that we agree -- at least in general terms/philosophy -- about custody (50-50) and ... there is at least a fair chance we'd agree on property, because we are both fairly non-materialistic, we don't own any big ticket items, and we generally have good will towards each other.
However, there is also a fair chance for things to become contentious, because I think my W doesn't really understand our financial situations and the ramifications of getting a D. She has been a SAHM, and I've handled all financial issues because she admits to having poor impulse control on spending, and handling money is too anxious for her (in retrospect I wish I had handled this differently, instead of taking it all upon myself). I don't think my W realizes that a D would mean downgrading our overall lifestyle, and her likely having to work FT at a fairly menial position.
She picked up the DIY D paperwork, and I agreed to look it over before meeting together to discuss it. I've been sitting on it for about a week. Haven't even opened the folder. I'm a little torn. On the one hand, it would be an act of detachment and a 180 to move this forward. On the other hand, I want to do nothing to move the D forward. I don't feel any motivation to taking a step towards seeing my kids only half of the time.
My inaction by default has put the ball back in her court. I'm sure she will remind me to look it over and meet. And if I don't comply, she will probably threaten to get a L and get it done. A typical retainer around here for a D L is about $5k, for a straight-forward case.
So, what do DB principles say? Do nothing, and burn through $5k (or $10k if I get a L too)? Or cooperate as she wants? FWIW, $10k is a lot of money to us....
Unless you are in the last resort while your spouse is in an affair then DBing discourages doing anything to move the divorce forward. This may be a moot point if your W doesn't have the money for a retainer. DBing would be for you to kindly inform her that you do not want a divorce and therefore will not hinder her but will not actively help the forward movement of a divorce.
A HUGE piece of DBing is the GAL. Make yourself very busy and not as available to your W. She needs to feel loss. Meanwhile you need to return to the person you were before meeting your wife. A confident guy who wouldn't wait around for some chic to decide if you were worth pursuing. Make a list of your qualities before your W, see if you can find the good part of yourself and build it up.
PsySara-- thanks for your response. Makes me think... which is good.
I think simply refusing to provide pertinent information could just deepen my WW's view that I'm the source of her problems, and that I'm clinging onto her. A 180 might be to say proactively, "You wanna go, then go."
Also, in my situation, I think us spelling out the practical ramifications of a D would be eye-opening for her. A big part of her fantasy world is how life would be after the D. She doesn't realize what a struggle it would be for her economically -- and how much she's see our kids less. This might seem elementary to some, but I believe my W just is not able to truly grasp hypotheticals until/unless she's knee deep in it.
My IC is encouraging me to go forward w/ the D, because she thinks it'll be a big wake-up call for my WW. I've not made up my mind on this, and will think on what you said.
I think I've been doing a fair job of GAL. I've unhitched my life to hers to the extent possible while living together. We do coordinate kids & dinner still -- there is probably some room for improving my DETACH/GAL/180 there. But setting her up to experience some loss is difficult while living together. Working on it though! Thanks for your encouragement.
[quote=ForGump]WW noticed I'm not catering to all her needs as before, sent me a note sounding annoyed. I told her it wasn't about her, it was about me moving forward, learning not to be mothering. She replied, "I'm glad I was interpreting things wrong, as I often do."
This is outstanding.
Seems like re the DIY paperwork, you get at least one reminder nag before she'd run out and lawyer up. You can then look it over at the pace that suits you. Maybe even put one of those alerts in place that prevents withdrawals from your accounts above a certain amount so that you at least know in real time if she's trying to write a big L check.
I sense, though, that maybe a part of you thinks it might be a good idea not to aggressively fight her but to instead let her put her own neck into the noose of her own making. Just based on what you've said previously, she maybe needs to experience the hardship -- or at least be advised as to the gory, much less comfortable details -- she'll face if she gets what she thinks she wants. It might make her stop and take stock of what she has, instead of focusing only on what her life and her marriage isn't.
That's the holy grail, isn't it? Getting to that changed way of looking at the world? We LBS may have gotten unhealthily attached, we may have stopped living our own lives as we started to understand our spouse was pulling away, but the one thing we never stopped doing was elevating in our minds/hearts the good in our spouse and affirmatively choosing not to stew on the bad. It seems like that's all it takes to get Rs back on track -- that one (big) shift back. But it's a lot.
JRuss-- great thoughts, as usual.
Yes, I think stonewalling her on the D process takes me to her level of immaturity. It seems the D process is not the core issue, it's a symptom. I don't want her to feel like I'm trying to wage war on technicalities. I don't want her to feel like I'm fighting at all -- I want to drop the rope.
On the other hand, it just doesn't feel right for me to participate in taking practical steps towards seeing less of my kids.
Wrestling with it....
My IC is encouraging me to go forward w/ the D, because she thinks it'll be a big wake-up call for my WW. I've not made up my mind on this, and will think on what you said.
FG, I think my IC would tend to agree with yours. My W also has a view of what "our" post M lives look like that seems very unrealistic. IC believes that as we move through this process it may serve as a wake up call to her.
With that said, who knows. Right now it's extremely difficult w/ in-house S. I will say that the more I think about it, maybe it's bad if we stall for the sake of stalling. If nothing is ever changing in the situation, how do we ever make any progress. It's almost like we're waiting for OM to screw things up w/ our WWs which could takes months, if not longer.
By moving things to the next step, at least you're changing the layout of the game. Puts you in a new place to see if it drives any change in your WW. Just rambling at this point.
Hang in there though FG!
ForGump -- that's a horribly hard decision that only you can make. But I'd point out that per your earlier post, you're in a no-fault state. So you will be divorced, if your W wants it badly enough, no matter what you do (or don't do). With that being the case, the two of you spending a huge amount of money -- money that you, your W and kids will definitely need if there is a split -- probably isn't in the best interests of your children.
For your own peace of mind, you could, with the kids' finanical well-being in mind, maybe (slowly) work through the DIY process, healthily DBing/working on your sitch all the while (if that feels right for you), maybe even tell your W you're only going along sans Ls to preserve assets you'll both need when both of your financial situations worsen considerably post-divorce (might be eye opening for your W?). Not sure -- it's very hard.
Saw IC. She thinks I'm being too nice, and enabling cake-eating. She generally advises that I be kind but firm, and don't explain too much, just to be brief. She said too much explanation allows the W to put the focus on me, rather than keeping it in her court -- she's the one instigating the D, and she needs to process the logic of it and the consequences in her own head. I'm persuaded that she's right on all of it.
W wants to have a pow-wow this a.m. about parenting S8, who has been questioning her about her NOT wearing her wedding band, and whose general attitude/disposition toward W -- she feels -- has been deteriorating.
I have been afflicted by AndrewP's predilection for mind reading. My brain is buzzing -- not from my doubleshot espresso this morning -- but from the fear of a mini- or midsized-BD.
I feel like Voldemort is squatting in the back half of my head, and has popped two bloodshot eyeballs out the back, and is drooling viciously. Yesterday FB gave me one of those blasts-from-the-past photos, showing our family when S8 was born. I felt like I was looking at us in a parallel universe, a W whose warmth and beauty I could no longer recognize. She was beautiful to me because she was so warm.
Now I expect to come away from the mid-morning pow-wow w/ some horrific death nugget for my brain about an announcement about some EA/PA that my S8 has inadvertently witnessed, and has affected his attitude.
God damn all this to hell.
Electrocution stayed indefinitely. Reason: not feeling like meeting up.
Off to enjoy my ribeye + fries.
Ribeye + Fries? You can do better than that as a last meal FG!
It's amazing how much kids absorb. My D, and it sounds like your S, both sense that something is wrong, even if they don't know exactly what. It'll be interesting to see what your W wants to tell him is the reason.
No mind reading though. Who knows what else may come out of any conversation around it. Not something worthwhile to dwell on.
Stay strong brother, and let's find you a better last meal!
Yesterday FB gave me one of those blasts-from-the-past photos, showing our family when S8 was born. I felt like I was looking at us in a parallel universe, a W whose warmth and beauty I could no longer recognize. She was beautiful to me because she was so warm.
ForGump,
I know what you mean; I always thought my wife was the most beautiful woman on earth. I never noticed the fuzzy chin, hairy legs and bushy armpits. I didn't realize she had missing teeth and warts on her nose. And her gravelly voice, that paired so well with the smokey undertones of her bacon and broccoli breath, has become a Willie Nelson twang. I don't think she'll ever be the same woman again.
I have been afflicted by AndrewP's predilection for mind reading. My brain is buzzing -- not from my doubleshot espresso this morning -- but from the fear of a mini- or midsized-BD.
Hey! I resemble that comment!
Where I am is a "no fault" area as well BUT if you read the forms carefully where I live there are still clauses here for grounds of infidelity or abuse. They are intended to protect people like us and people who get just straight physical or mental abuse without the "other". No doubt your jurisdiction has something similar. Google "abused spouse [my state] divorce form" perhaps.
On move-out day seeing those forms filled out and me handing her my L's card scared the crap out of WW. I filled out the forms myself and got extra cards after my single meeting with the L. I did NOT let her keep the forms (she tried to grab them and searched for them later) but I certainly let her read the explanation I wrote for why I felt that there was infidelity and abuse. I let her keep the cards because I felt that the firm I had picked for that single meeting was one of the top ones in our area for divorce. She had that card for her meeting with her L the next week who had been recommended by the L who does our real-estate stuff (didn't do any research).
Know your rights and make sure you are driving the bus where you want it to go. For me - if WW decides to go to OM, he can have her and the D will go through in a matter of weeks. She can't contest the infidelity - I have accumulated evidence and could theoretically subpoena OM just by naming him in the document.
If you have your forms filled out right and it's not contested it's my understanding that the L and the judge will just rubber-stamp them. From talking to a friend who made all the classic mistakes in his own D as well - the rules around support and custody go right out the window when there's infidelity and even better, financial shenanigans involved. Keep in mind though - this legal advice is coming from another country, not from a lawyer and is probably worth the cookies that doodler keeps promising but never seem to arrive.
If you know anyone who has gone through a messy D that you can trust you may want to talk to them about everything that could go wrong and how to protect yourself. It's helped me and made me more confident.
P.S. - it's a great group of sufferers we have here right now - feels like talking to brothers (and sisters). A lot of pain, sadness, and anger but camaraderie and humour too.
Ribeye + Fries? You can do better than that as a last meal FG!
I am a simple man. A simpleton, even, in many ways.
But ... what are you having?
I never noticed the fuzzy chin, hairy legs and bushy armpits.
Heh heh ...
But I did love her from her head to toe, warts and all ... (and if I still do, I would not admit to that here)
Know your rights and make sure you are driving the bus where you want it to go.
Good advice, thanks. Exactly the same advice my IC gave (because she feels I've been a doormat and a cake baker).
I did double check and confirm that infidelity is simply not considered where I am, and there is no separate D form for it.
I just wanna say... Brigitte Bardot!
"Now the reason we're here
As man and woman
Is to love each other
Take care of each other
When love walks in the room
Everybody stand up
Oh it's good, good, good
Like brigitte bardot"
-- The Pretenders
Hang in there gump. Our situtuations are so so similar. I'd also go for the ribeye...
Journaling:
Yesterday we went on a big outdoor trip I organized w/ other families. WW chose to come, and en route treated me w/ contempt but once we met up w/ other families, she was very cheerful and even complimentary toward me. Over all great day -- just the simple pleasure of watching my kids and other kids running, laughing and playing in the sunshine just makes my heart feel full.
Today, the temperature I sense from my WW is back down to near normal levels: cool and distant, although there were a few moments at dinner when she engaged me in a slightly warm chatter.
Gump hope you had a good trip,
Your last post just made me think more about how much this whole thing stinks. It's like everything in reverse you do something with your W and it feels great like you are a family and it's good, how it use to be even.
I have to look at everything in reverse now and re train my brain. If my W is around and we are having fun and it all feels "nice" I know I am slipping in achieving my goals. The fact that this can be the case makes me sick but it is what it is. She still has the OM and I don't want scraps so as much as she is a very willing participant in having fun as a family she can't be allowed to have that.
Damn WWs trying to eat cake all day everyday. I hope you are going well Gump I'm now almost 8 months since she moved out and it has been a long and winding road but I feel as if I am steering the car now and it feels good.
Stay strong
Albac-- I think you understand this, but just so I'm clear, I definitely did not feel like we were a normal family. We were civil, and at a few times even friendly to each other, but it was very clear that we were not "together," and I'm sure neither me nor my WW was any delusion that we were, although there were a few small bits of cake eating. If I think about it, it breaks my heart, as I want my kids to have nothing but Mommy and Daddy that love each other. Just a few short months ago we were very affectionate to each other, and our kids used to tease us for being so affectionate. The adults in the other families on the trip also knew what we were going through. (It was a day trip, albeit a long one). I would guess our kids perceived subconsciously the separation between me and my W, but on the surface they probably did not see anything abnormal.
I am prepared to let my W go. But it just eats me up to do this to my kids.
I'm still hazy on what a "family" should be like. I want to assure my kids that after the divorce, we will still be a family in the sense that my wife and I will work together to co-parent. But obviously the four of us won't be a single unit, and won't do everything together.
Gump, I understand and I know how sad it all is.
I'll ask you a question I ask myself a lot. If you take your children out of the picture how do you see your thoughts and actions? The same or different?
I ask myself that question and think we'll without kids involved this person has broken my heart and treated me like a piece of trash. And I would want nothing to do with them. I then ask myself the question that is that's how I feel am I lying to myself or prolonging the inevitable by continuing down the path I'm on.
So many questions but I know I'm the same as you Gump. Our W's have no respect for us and I am slowly turning the tables on that because I am no longer afraid of losing her. She's already gone.
Just reading you post albac, I know if it wasn't for my kids I would be long gone. I know that I've been trying to fix this because of the kids. Thinking my W will see what and how disconnected she is with them. I think I hurt more for their loss than my own, especially my 3 yr old daughter. My W was such a dedicated mother to our son, loved spending time alone with him. Now she doesn't want one on one time with her daughter. I tried suggesting that a few months ago but she turned it down. My daughter regularly tells me that she needs me, that I am the best and that she wants to stay with me. It strikes me in good and bad ways everytime.
I think all the time about how ready I am to let go and not take this abuse. I would live an otherwise pretty good bachelor life. My hesitation is that I know that it would hurt my son on many levels. I keep trying to tell myself to gut this out and when there is no choice left, we can always go that route.
There is a lot of focus here on the kids and trying to keep the M going for them.
My kids are grown adults and will survive this probably better than I will.
So albac for me the kids are out of the picture. Why am I trying so hard to save my M? Why am I putting up with pain and sorrow? I'm doing it because I love my W. I'm doing it because I remember the 26 years of a wonderful love story. I'm doing it because I hope that this is just a bump in the road. I'm doing it because she was my best friend and I will not abandon her.
This is counter to 90% of the advice that I see here but I say - don't do it for the kids. Do it because you feel that it is the right thing for you, your W and your family.
AndrewP -- I tell myself I'm doing it for the kids, and that's certainly true. Some kids do perfectly well in a divorce scenario, but a lot of them don't. They are endangered by what my W says she wants, and I fight for the M, in part, because I can't anymore sit here and let them be endangered in this way than I can let any other known danger menace them.
But it is also for me. If I didn't still love my W and believe very strongly that we could get through this period and emerge on the other side in something we both could enjoy and thrive in, I would likely not be fighting. I'd still be very scared that my kids would be $#@%ed up by the divorce, but I'd have already given in, I think.
Now, where the one stops and the other starts, I'm not sure. Do I overstate my child-protection efforts because I don't want to face full-on the fact that I'm chasing a woman who doesn't want me? Probably some of that going on, if I'm honest.
Jruss and Andrew are right; despite the anger and pain, we do love our wives. It would be easier if we didn't...
If you take your children out of the picture how do you see your thoughts and actions?
When my W and I met and dated, we had a falling out and broke up for about 4 months. That was the most excruciating emotional pain I had felt in my life. The first two months ... I was like a zombie, and was drinking too much (I'm not a heavy drinker, so it doesn't take much for me to be drinking "too much" for me). By the end of that period, I felt like I had been run over by a truck but was on my way to recovery, when, by a bit of luck, I ran into her again and we re-connected.
When she told me this time that she wanted a divorce, the depression and despair felt different to me. I can't say it was less or more. In the earlier breakup, I felt all my hopes were destroyed. This time, it felt like a life I had woven together w/ her were singed to black coal. This, despite having had many, many frustrations about her as a partner and a lover over all those married years. In fact, early in our marriage, I was surprised by many facets of her personality, and wondered whether we were going to make it.
This is a long of saying that if kids were not in the picture, I think I would have suffered just as greatly to let her go. But with kids involved, I feel like have two giant mountains to climb over. One for myself and one for my kids.
This really made me think. I can't say I want to try to get my M back on track for my S. He's PART of it. He's what keeps me in my lane, keeps me from giving up, keeps me focused on MYSELF. But strictly for him? No. Though his Mom loves him, and worries about him like she always did, your note about not being a dedicated mother anymore hits me hard. W has allowed him to get sunburns because she's not paying attention to him. She'll sit around on her phone, whereas she used to be such a helicopter parent she'd worry about THAT!
Now, my boy is something of Daddy's little guy. I try to be both Mom and Dad for him, being fun, letting him being independent but dropping everything when he cries out, kissing him when he gets a little bump, etc etc. He runs to me like he never did before. W is getting herself back. I see it and hear it. She's doing positive things like church, counseling and just became part of a mentoring program for elementary school age kids. But I still don't see Super Mom that I knew and loved.
I love this woman. Like I did? No. Can I again? Yes, if I continue to see the progress I've noticed in 3mos. It's not at the pace I'd like it, but it is progress....
Wow, a lot of great responses to that question. I'm fighting for my W bc of two things:
1) I'm not willing to introduce the uncertainty a divorce brings into the life of my D9 without a fight. I know it's far from certain that a divorce will put her in a worse spot, but if there's something I can do to salvage the M and remove all that uncertainty, I'm surely going to try. But salvaging the M means a lot more than just having a M on paper. It means fixing all these issues w/ myself and my W that have been lurking under the surface for years. Without that, there's no benefit in my mind to being in the M solely for my D.
2) I just flat out still love my W. Don't get me wrong, I don't love this current version of my W, but if there's any chance of getting back the previous version I'd definitely fight for that. A lot of damage has been done w/ my whole situation, but no one I've spoken with yet views it as un-fixable, except for my W. I hold out hope that I can rekindle what we once had and for now am working DB'ing to see if it can get us up off the mat.
With both of those said, if there's no hope, there's no hope. A lot of this relies on W waking up at some point and realizing this is not the right move. Then on top of that, she needs to be willing to work hard to fix things. If she's not willing to do that, then even w/ my D in the picture, it's a non-starter unfortunately. We'll just need to be civil, and active co-parents. [censored], but that's where most of us seem to be.
With both of those said, if there's no hope, there's no hope. A lot of this relies on W waking up at some point and realizing this is not the right move. Then on top of that, she needs to be willing to work hard to fix things. If she's not willing to do that, then even w/ my D in the picture, it's a non-starter unfortunately. We'll just need to be civil, and active co-parents. [censored], but that's where most of us seem to be.
I'm starting not to think there's much hope for any of us. I think what I -- and maybe others here -- never really internalized/understood was that our marriages really were truly dead by the time we got the news. Not in trouble or even in deep trouble, but
dead. We're trying to use those electric paddles on something that was DOA before it ever got to the ER.
Great attitude lt! I agree with both points and try to tell myself those when I'm feeling beat down.
JR, I've had the same thoughts recently. That maybe it's just so far gone that nothing I do will bring my M back to life. It's depressing to think, but may very well be the case and if it is I'll just need to accept that.
With that said, the old M may be DOA and not revive-able, but that doesn't mean a new M can't grow in it's place w/ my W. If us LBS's can rebuild ourselves into better people then there's at least a glimmer of hope. And, if worse comes to worse, and there is no new M to rise from the ashes, at least we are better parents for our kids and better prepared to succeed in future relationships.
It seems like there is a positive outcome to be had, regardless of how the situation w/ our WWs works out. All comes back to focusing on ourselves and making us better people. I figure to get to that point, I need more time than I've put in so far. May as well fight for my M, via DB'ing, while I work on myself at the same time.
I actually think there's hope for many of us. But, are we willing to keep waiting until the women get a grip and figure out their mistake? At least with me, I can still sense some love coming from W; however, if I pressed now she'd run for the hills. That's it isn't it? Time. As I've read from Cadet, many times the M dies because once the W figures things out and wants back in the H has gotten sick of waiting around. I can see this. The more we figure out we don't need them, the latent love and warmth starts to dissipate.....
RSG,
I am in line with your thoughts. I want my W back I want what we had but I do not need it. I will be ok no matter what happens between us and life will go on for me.
I still feel love from my W even now but she is almost choosing not to see it or putting effort in to not wanting to see it. I am willing to see what happens and if my W wants to work things out great but I am not waiting around for her to come back I am working on myself and when I truly feel I am ready to move on (and I don't mean straight into a full on relationship) I will do what I feel is right.
Just like you said RSG I think it takes to the point they can see we are moving on before they realize what's going on and it seems from what I have seen so many cases by the time they realize and want back in it's too late.
I have friends that have been through exactly this and he rolls end up reversed one of my best friends mum walked out on his dad because she wanted fun blah blah all the reasons they think they want and then years down the track she was begging him to come back to her but he was happy with someone else. She now lives a boring single life regretting everyday the decision she made and he is happily re married.
Just one example but such a tragedy really.
1 small nitpick: I don't want what I HAD with W, that got me to this place. I want to tear down the abandoned house, and rebuild an even greater dwelling on a solid foundation.
I think that's what you meant too though.
That story truly is tragic.
I ... never really internalized/understood was that our marriages really were truly dead by the time we got the news. Not in trouble or even in deep trouble, but dead. We're trying to use those electric paddles on something that was DOA before it ever got to the ER.
Clear!
Clear!
Clear!
Yep. Let's not fool ourselves. The odds are no good when you look at the whole lot of us as a collection.
But each case is just not knowable. We have to accept that each of our case is a known unknown.
Journaling:
WW gone most of the day to help her Dad w/ some medical appointments. Spent all day w/ S. We always have a great time together. When she came back, she was warm and friendly. OK, not warm, but tepid, which is noticeable compared to the usual cool demeanor. No mention of D paperwork for days. Wondering if her Dad told her to slow the hell down, and re-think the D.
Feels like the calm before the storm.
"I love the smell of napalm in the morning. ... Some day this war's gonna end." -- Col. Kilgore
Albac, I have friends tell me similar stories. One of our friends had a friend that left her husband trying find herself, a number of things similar to my W, and took 9 years to wake to what she had. Her husband is happy and remarried and she is sad and alone... I think this happens more often than people realize.
My W, however, has cut these friends out of the picture for her new single friends. Anyone that doesn't agree with her gets shut out, even her own family is getting shut out.
FG, tepid is a good way of describing about how warm they are capable of getting nowadays. Who knows why she had the mood change though. No mind reading!
I understand the calm before the storm view. I'm going through that a lot nowadays. Seems like all you can do is ride it out though. Like a hurricane, you can't stop the winds, you can only find a place to hunker down before you come back out and start to rebuild.
Keep grinding forward though bud. You're not alone!
Yep. Let's not fool ourselves. The odds are no good when you look at the whole lot of us as a collection.
But each case is just not knowable. We have to accept that each of our case is a known unknown.
So much wisdom in that. I've read it multiple times and get something out of it each time!
new thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2698991#Post2698991