Link to thread 1 here:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...289#Post2670289Link to thread 2 here:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2677578&page=1Same intro here:
Like many of you I was the LBS for a long time. My H and I were married with kids, I adored him, we were in love for a long time, beautiful family, small town, lots of friends, and he was the nicest guy! I thought I had it all and he would never hurt me. My family, friends and community thought we had it all.
A string of very difficult life events lead to the corrosion of our marriage. Things were rapidly changing and falling apart and I just could not put my finger on why we couldn't cope. Something in my gut was telling me for months--maybe longer--that something just wasn't right. I got the ILYBINILWY. The distance was growing. I was battling with my own anxiety and depression with the life hardships, and so I had trouble seeing that my M was slipping away in front of me. I completely blamed myself! My H was the most wonderful man and I never thought he would hurt me. .... WRONG.
I found out he was having an EA with OW in our same small town for 6-12 mos. No idea when it started and I don't think he knows either because they were just "friends" in his mind. But in his gut he also knew it was wrong. So when I found out about this "friendship" and that he was lying to me and seeing her behind my back, I was heartbroken, devastated, and so angry. With all the crisis that was happening already, I had no reserves to deal with this. We fought, I went crazy, we split up. I read the forums here but struggled to DB. In the beginning I was angry, lashed out, and gave ultimatums. Then I became further anxious and depressed and cried, begged, and pleaded. Of course I only pushed him further away. I always struggled to focus on me.
So we were separated for about a year and their EA went to PA and they had a full blown R. It was the darkest and scariest time in my life. Here I was with these kids, in this town--always wondering who knew--hanging on by a thread, with the shame staring me in the face. I honestly don't know how I survived. I couldn't eat, lost over 30 pounds, couldn't sleep, had problems at work, my kiddos were visibly struggling, and I had this possible D looming and fear of losing my home. My life was completely turned upside down.
Then everything changed. It was also the hardest year of his life and he was running to OW because it was the only thing that "made" him feel good about himself. He always knew the A was wrong, he always felt guilty, but he justified it because of his anger towards me. An anger that had built up over time that I never even knew was there. He was the typical Nice Guy, perfect H and family man, and put my needs before his own. I had no idea he was silently suffering and building resentment towards me all those years. He completely rewrote history. That is how he justified his A--he deserved to be happy, I make him miserable, and the more I lashed out while he was gone, the more he justified it and pointed the finger at me. My wonderful, loving H was a complete alien to me.
Well that only lasts so long. You can't blame someone else for your unhappiness and quite frankly, while he was gone and having his A he was more unhappy than ever before! It was the times that he missed his normal life and I was cordial that he missed me. It was when he saw that I was starting to move on--not by words, but by actions--that he was terrified of losing me. He knew he hadn't tried in our M.
So, he has been back over a year and we have been piecing. When H came back he did a 180--he was remorseful, transparent, working on himself, and out of the fog. It happened rather quickly from my perspective--1-2 weeks. He was back and in my gut I just knew. He has remained this way and it has been consistent. ... Always trust your gut. My gut has never steered me wrong in the last few years, I just didn't want to listen to it.
So here I am. I am still learning about acceptance, forgiveness, and mostly--what I tell all of you--that the fundamental principle is what we all need to focus on, and that is self-love. DB is about YOU. Love yourself, work on detachment and breaking codependency, and know your value in any R. You are valuable and no one else can determine your worth! Whether you enter piecing or not, that is what will get you through life and lead to strength and happiness.
These boards got me through some very dark days. Waywards do come back. Always trust your gut and take care of yourself first. I am here for you guys.
Thank you,
Blu
Welcome to your new thread, Blu!
I do think that there is more to be gained here by engaging with the community than by reading threads. I'm glad that you've found it helpful to join in and I know that others here, including myself, benefit from your presence, too.
I
Deep breath. ... Here I go. ... My H's former AP's (OWs) XH (or STBXH) is here on the boards. I know it.
He is the one that told me about DB a couple years ago when our spouses left us for each other. He became my rock and an amazing support person while H (and his W) were deep in the fog. He was always better at DB than me, that is for sure!
While my H came back, his W moved on to her next OM. I believe he has since moved on and is doing well. I had no reason to think he was still coming here to DB land. Of course with my H coming back, we had lost touch.
I don't feel I should say much more. I haven't censored my posts one way or the other because you are here. As you know, I am always transparent--and perhaps naive--with how much I share.
I will say, I am glad you are here. You offered me much calm and rational wisdom in the most chaotic time in my life, and I have no doubt you can do the same for those here.
How did we end up here at the same time, only two days apart after all this time? I just can't help but wonder what the universe is telling me.
-Blu
Correction: not 2 days, but 2 weeks.
Wow BluWave, that's got to be tough knowing that. And its got to be tough for him to be here. I'm sorry for the both of you.
I did reach out to my W's A partner after OM confessed to his W. I really wasn't looking to bond or form a relationship with her. I just wanted to give her some advice on resources that might help her (including this forum). We only communicated by text a couple of times; she never wanted to meet. Now I wish she would just cut off contact with my W!!!!!!! She has become an unwanted intrusion into our M. My W feels a need to maintain a connection with her I believe so that she can try and atone for her "sins." But it just keeps bringing drama back into our life that I don't want or need.
On Monday, OM emailed me and asked to meet so that he could apologize in person. Well, I don't want or need an apology from him. I don't care what he thinks/feels. He is irrelevant to me. I would just like them both to be gone.
This is a crappy deal for all of us. All we can do is make the best we can of the hand that has been dealt to us.
BluWave, I was shocked when I read this and didn't know what to say so I kept my mouth shut. My first thought was any distraction from outside sources could be a negative in piecing.
But then I thought about it, and I think that it is great that he's here, that he will, or probably already has seen your story. I believe he gave you the best gift he could, I've read your posts, I know that without DB you wouldn't be where you are. In essence, he gave you your M back, or at least a shot at getting it back. I hope he has found a place where he is happy, I'm sorry to hear his M didn't survive, but by no means do I believe that means that he is not happier now.
I would understand if it is too much to dredge up knowing he is also on the boards, so I for one will understand if your story ends here (I hope it doesn't), but you are insightful and inspirational, and I pray you still stick around.
Thank you both. It doesn't change anything for me in terms of what/how I post. I have a lot of love and respect for him. When I was falling, he was there to catch me, and that is what matters and what we remember about people.
We naturally lost touch and it's understandable. He would not want anything to do with my H and he knows what a POS I still think his W (or XW) is. Life has moved forward for both of us and we have gone our separate ways. It's okay.
Which brings me to my current topic of acceptance. I have spent a lot of energy in my life trying to control things--situations, outcomes, relationships--and often it worked for me (or so I believed) so I kept it up. During my DB fails (for lack of a better term), I was completely spinning. Not only because I was heartbroken and terrified, but because I felt I had no control over my life anymore.
I am coming to realize that I always had and will have control over my life, but not in the sense that I thought I did. I can't actually control situations, outcomes, or relationships, but what I CAN control are my actions AND my perspective. We can always alter our perspective but we have to stop being stubborn and be open to that. Perhaps if I understood this better, I would have been more successful at DB. I just knew H was making a terrible mistake and I wanted to show him. I tried to control him. However, because of my (explosive and emotional) actions, I pushed him further away, and I in turn made it near impossible for H to come back. I know that now.
I am starting to understand that my control IS acceptance. It's not necessarily the actions of change or influence, but rather accepting where I am in the present moment. If I can't accept it, then I can control trying to see it from a different perspective. If I still can't accept it, then it is not my place to change it, but rather find something different that works for me. Or move on without it.
This may seem obvious, but for me it wasn't. I think I was my own worst enemy. Now, the more I am accepting, the more I realize I can control my own happiness and life satisfaction. If when H had his A and left me, and I didn't lose control and fight it, I could have successfully DB. By success I mean, let him go and learn to love myself again. Not sure if I would have taken him back had I been stronger, but either way I could have been in a better place and not tortured myself for so long.
Just my thoughts for today.
Let go of your spouse. They are asking for that. Accept they are gone and remedy your own pain. Stop torturing yourself and trying to mind read and control them. Once you can do that, they may begin to feel safe to come back.
Blu
There are a few of you that I wanted to reply to, but since it is the same feedback, I thought I would put it here. I certainly can relate to the spinning and feeling that even when you are "doing everything right," it still doesn't work. You are not getting the results you want.
So I want to challenge some of you (you know who you are) to change the way you measure results. Just shift the way you are thinking. The way you can measure results is in your small successes with DB and not in what your spouse is doing. You cannot control what they will do, or if they will even notice your changes, but you can slowly control your actions and the way you think about your sitch.
So, try and set up your list of goals as small, but measurable, things that you CAN do. Your success in DB is if you can do those things and for each of you, depending on where you are in this process, the goals will be different.
If you are not sure where to begin, and you keep spinning and looking to your spouse for results, then you are setting yourself up for failure. It will take them a LONG time to notice, change, or come around. When they do, you will know. So stop trying to look and analyze.
So start with a list, and if you don't have one, take some from Sandi's rules. Next, measure your success on your ability to DO them. Start off by measuring success on your ability to follow day by day, then by week, and for those of you that have been in this a while, month by month. For me, I could have started with hour by hour!
I wish I had done this. I kept looking behind me to see if H had noticed or was coming back around. It was a lot of (painful) wasted energy and I never had success. I think I would have felt better about myself, if I recognized where I was going right and gave myself credit where it was due. That was some hard stuff. And I still got up every day, took care of my kids, went to work, spent time with my family/friends, and then I did it again, day after day. Looking back on it, I see now that I worried about him far too much, and that is not what brought him back.
Just my 2 cents for today.
Cheers.
-Blu
It is great to read your sitch....and that you were able to fight through the tough times and get to at least the place you are at....definitely inspiring.
I have read many times that even a Divorce is just a piece of paper. Keep working on what you need to and good things will happen.
Glad he is back and best to you
There are a few of you that I wanted to reply to, but since it is the same feedback, I thought I would put it here. I certainly can relate to the spinning and feeling that even when you are "doing everything right," it still doesn't work. You are not getting the results you want.
So I want to challenge some of you (you know who you are) to change the way you measure results. Just shift the way you are thinking. The way you can measure results is in your small successes with DB and not in what your spouse is doing. You cannot control what they will do, or if they will even notice your changes, but you can slowly control your actions and the way you think about your sitch.
So, try and set up your list of goals as small, but measurable, things that you CAN do. Your success in DB is if you can do those things and for each of you, depending on where you are in this process, the goals will be different.
If you are not sure where to begin, and you keep spinning and looking to your spouse for results, then you are setting yourself up for failure. It will take them a LONG time to notice, change, or come around. When they do, you will know. So stop trying to look and analyze.
So start with a list, and if you don't have one, take some from Sandi's rules. Next, measure your success on your ability to DO them. Start off by measuring success on your ability to follow day by day, then by week, and for those of you that have been in this a while, month by month. For me, I could have started with hour by hour!
I wish I had done this. I kept looking behind me to see if H had noticed or was coming back around. It was a lot of (painful) wasted energy and I never had success. I think I would have felt better about myself, if I recognized where I was going right and gave myself credit where it was due. That was some hard stuff. And I still got up every day, took care of my kids, went to work, spent time with my family/friends, and then I did it again, day after day. Looking back on it, I see now that I worried about him far too much, and that is not what brought him back.
Just my 2 cents for today.
Cheers.
-Blu
Well said Blu!
There are many LBS that should read this over and over and over again until it can sink in.
The road to healing and peace is much shorter if one can comprehend this and apply it.
I am not saying it is easy, but it is worth it and it is the only way.
It is the DB way.
Blu,
I hope that I and many others end up on the path to reconciliation one day. I am glad you are here posting so others can have hope no matter how bad their sitches are.
I've been feeling at a loss of what to post lately. I think SH hit the nail on the head--we want a quick fix and without doing the hard work. That hard work being looking inside ourselves and letting go of expectations.
So I've been asking myself if I've been successful at that. I think I've gotten better at letting go of expecting things from H, but that's also because I am reaching a higher level of detachment. Perhaps at times I am indifferent. This also makes me sad.
C-nuts threads have helped me think about where I have gone wrong. I too am impatient, react on emotions, and feel this strong need to make a decision and take action in some direction. I think it stems from feeling out of control and asserting control however one can find it.
So again, I've been going back to what it means to have "control." Control is acceptance. Accepting that things are the way they are, that what happened DID happen, and accepting that things will work out as they need to. There is some sadness in that too. I don't know where I will be in several years.
It's easier to hang on to hurt, to anger, and to take action--working on the M or working on leaving. My biggest test of patience is doing nothing at all. I'm trying to be okay with that. My autopilot mode is to grab the wheel and take control. Because when I don't, I am left with my thoughts and feelings. There is still so much sadness.
I can take 2 roads in this M. Both are going to be hard. Just letting myself feel sad today. Even though I have cried a lot on the last several years, I still need to work on accepting the sadness.
-Blu
Blu
It's natural to have sad days. It means you are human. The best thing is to let it just go through you and just like any other emotion, it will pass. Tomorrow is another day!
(((Blu)))
Blu, I'm sorry things are rough.
I'm probably more flawed than you are, but I am happiest when I keep the focus on working on me. It's easy for me to lose focus on that when it feels like the marriage is going well, but then I find myself losing my detachment and becoming emotionally dependent.
When I focus on the 180s that are important to me, and on GAL, it feeds my need for control in a healthy way.
I'm not really qualified to offer advice, so take it for what it's worth.
((Blu))
Drive by hug for BluWave.
(((((Blu)))))
Thank you for stoping by my thread. Your words are true and your compliments of my efforts mean a lot to me.
I hope you are having a peaceful and happy day.
You can do this which ever road you choose. The hard work will pay off regardless. Because you will have earned it.
Be in control as you say. One small step day by day and you will make it.
Thank you everyone.
SH, I recall reading on your thread that you are able to give wonderful support to others but perhaps not as much kindness to yourself. I was thinking about that too. Sometimes for me, it is easier to take care of others than give self care. Self care can require looking inside our minds and history, which in itself can be painful.
I have been wondering lately if there is such a thing as being too detached? I think I may be swinging in that direction. I'm not giving up on my M, not walking away, but realize at times I can be numb. I think it's a natural protective mechanism in this sitch.
I can list so many reasons why H is a good man, father, and partner. I do feel he is staying the course and committed to me and the family. I also find that the triggers are finally fading. There was a long while where I felt so much PTSD--a full on visceral response--that I was scared it would never work.
The numbness is slightly new. I am not sure exactly what it means but I am okay with it. It's a welcome relief. I still feel that part of my control is accepting where things are in the present. I have faith that things will settle into place as they should in time. I can't predict what will happen in the M, but I can surrender myself to giving up control.
I am secretly hoping that this is why people say successfully recovering from an A can lead to a better M. I don't know. But I do know that I like myself a lot more now than I did before any of this chit started years ago.
Hang in there DBers, this is a LONG arse road!
-Blu
Hey bluewave, I dont think that it has to be such a long-ass road to be honest. Life is about choices, don't get me wrong, i'm divorced in what is really 5 months since BD. And i will live and accept those consequences.
I started my journey on the forum around 05 April, 120% attached! But as I let go of her, gave her the freedom she wanted, and lost the control that I thought i had, i found peace, i found joy, i found calm and a clear mind. I see this in your last update. I am thankfully at 5% attachment now.
But the choice to let go early, and painfully, is key. Even you're still fighting for your marriage, make a decision and stick to it. No-one will find peace if they don't know what they're looking for.
Keep strong, we are all rooting for you!
C-nuts threads have helped me think about where I have gone wrong. I too am impatient, react on emotions, and feel this strong need to make a decision and take action in some direction. I think it stems from feeling out of control and asserting control however one can find it.
So again, I've been going back to what it means to have "control." Control is acceptance. Accepting that things are the way they are, that what happened DID happen, and accepting that things will work out as they need to. There is some sadness in that too. I don't know where I will be in several years.
It's easier to hang on to hurt, to anger, and to take action--working on the M or working on leaving. My biggest test of patience is doing nothing at all. I'm trying to be okay with that. My autopilot mode is to grab the wheel and take control. Because when I don't, I am left with my thoughts and feelings. There is still so much sadness.
-Blu
Hi Blu,
Your post is helping me today.
I've felt completely lost over the past 3-4 weeks; feeling like I don't want to be in the M anymore; feeling like I just can't and don't want to do this. I hate that I feel this way and yet I still feel it. My W is doing what she is supposed to be doing. If you were to ask me what else she could be doing, I wouldnt have an answer. But I still feel like its not enough. Is it even possible for her to do enough? My fear is that she can't despite good intentions.
I realize I too have had expectations. And those expectations probably weren't realistic. I've asked for too much of my W too soon. I feel like it has to either be better NOW or I have to leave. Neither is the answer but I don't know what to do in the meantime. What do you do when you look at your spouse and you don't feel affection? What do you do when you've lost the desire to keep trying?
C-nuts threads have helped me think about where I have gone wrong. I too am impatient, react on emotions, and feel this strong need to make a decision and take action in some direction. I think it stems from feeling out of control and asserting control however one can find it.
So again, I've been going back to what it means to have "control." Control is acceptance. Accepting that things are the way they are, that what happened DID happen, and accepting that things will work out as they need to. There is some sadness in that too. I don't know where I will be in several years.
It's easier to hang on to hurt, to anger, and to take action--working on the M or working on leaving. My biggest test of patience is doing nothing at all. I'm trying to be okay with that. My autopilot mode is to grab the wheel and take control. Because when I don't, I am left with my thoughts and feelings. There is still so much sadness.
-Blu
Hi Blu,
Your post is helping me today.
I've felt completely lost over the past 3-4 weeks; feeling like I don't want to be in the M anymore; feeling like I just can't and don't want to do this. I hate that I feel this way and yet I still feel it. My W is doing what she is supposed to be doing. If you were to ask me what else she could be doing, I wouldnt have an answer. But I still feel like its not enough. Is it even possible for her to do enough? My fear is that she can't despite good intentions.
I realize I too have had expectations. And those expectations probably weren't realistic. I've asked for too much of my W too soon. I feel like it has to either be better NOW or I have to leave. Neither is the answer but I don't know what to do in the meantime. What do you do when you look at your spouse and you don't feel affection? What do you do when you've lost the desire to keep trying?
I think this is where my H was on BD, which only happened because I confronted him.
It's weird to read it from you. It gives me an additional view from his perspective.
I have no real advice. H committed to trying to reconnect, and his actions and words show he is trying, but I have no idea if it is working because we aren't having R talks.
I'm continuing to work on me and 180 some things that have lead us down cheeseless tunnels in the past. (Including that just in case someone reads this and thinks I am expecting H to do all the work.)
It's way too early to say if we are going to be a success. I'm aware that another BD could happen at any time.
Anyway, sorry to turn this into a tangent. It gave me a jolt to read H's perspective, and I had to respond.
Hi Lim,
Sorry to reply so late. I try and glance at the threads frequently, but not always great about posting!
I wish I had good answers for you. I think we focus so much on DB--GAL, detaching, 180s--because really we can't get our mind off of when and IF they come back. When they do come back, it is with very mixed emotion. For me it was shock, relief, reconnecting, very quickly followed by anger, fear, and resentment. Then I cycled around several 1000 times. Sometimes over the course of several weeks and other times all in a day.
That is why piecing is such hard work. It's more crazy-making than anything. Allowing your mind to talk the heart off the ledge again and again and again....
I am much further down the time line than you and still at times I feel these mixed emotions or ask these same questions. For the first year, there were several times that I wanted to end it or felt no desire to feel close to him. Look, we would be crazy if we DIDNT feel that way. This person that we dedicated our life to--marriage, children, a family, everything--essentially lied, betrayed and then gave up. That is traumatic! It's natural to protect yourself from this pain. Your body is made to protect you without your awareness.
But I think you have made conscious decision to be in this marriage and to give it your best shot, right? So that is what you remind yourself of when you are having doubts. I still remind myself of that; H is a good man, a wonderful father, I know I can trust him right now, but he is human and made a terrible mistake. My choice to be with him is steered by those principles and I believe the rest will work out over time. If it doesn't? Well then I can move on knowing I tried my best. I want that for me and for my kids.
Are you expecting too much of her? My answer is a simple he11 no. This is your life. You decide what you want, what you need to start trusting her, and what it will take to move forward. Just keep in mind those wants and needs will lighten over time.
I hope this helps.
Blu
Hi Blu, it's great to hear that you and your H are reconnecting. I can't imagine what you went through living in a town where everyone is likely to know your business.
Please stop by my thread if you have time but I am struggling at the moment and feel like I have stalled. Did you get moments when you felt like that to? I am going semi-dark with my H as we have one evening a week of family time my D, his SD but he doesn't seem to make the effort unless either me or my D prompt him. This week I've turned down an invitation to Sunday lunch with him and D as he only suggested this after D asked when we were seeing him. I don't want to seem too available but how do I DB when I hardly see him? I've stopped chasing him, texting for the last two weeks unless it is about D of the house which I've only done twice, but it seems like he isn't even bothered anymore. I keep getting these urges to just call him and ask him what is going on but I know that would be pursuing. How did you cope?
Thank you everyone.
SH, I recall reading on your thread that you are able to give wonderful support to others but perhaps not as much kindness to yourself. I was thinking about that too. Sometimes for me, it is easier to take care of others than give self care. Self care can require looking inside our minds and history, which in itself can be painful.
I have been wondering lately if there is such a thing as being too detached? I think I may be swinging in that direction. I'm not giving up on my M, not walking away, but realize at times I can be numb. I think it's a natural protective mechanism in this sitch.
I can list so many reasons why H is a good man, father, and partner. I do feel he is staying the course and committed to me and the family. I also find that the triggers are finally fading. There was a long while where I felt so much PTSD--a full on visceral response--that I was scared it would never work.
The numbness is slightly new. I am not sure exactly what it means but I am okay with it. It's a welcome relief. I still feel that part of my control is accepting where things are in the present. I have faith that things will settle into place as they should in time. I can't predict what will happen in the M, but I can surrender myself to giving up control.
I am secretly hoping that this is why people say successfully recovering from an A can lead to a better M. I don't know. But I do know that I like myself a lot more now than I did before any of this chit started years ago.
Hang in there DBers, this is a LONG arse road!
-Blu
Hello Blu!
I saw you driving around the neighborhood so thought I'd stop by.
I read this post again and gave pause as it is a place that I am in a holding pattern with right now.
The feedback from several about my lending support and guidance outward, but maybe not so much to myself does feel to be an issue for me.
I am struggling as I look inward as it is such a numb place right now, and if I stare for a moment to long there is a burst of anger that I quickly slam the door on and then engage in something for someone else.
I know I need to figure out my own demons so I can move forward, but the challenge has been a bit overwhelming.
I want to be as far from her as possible and obsess a bit on how to more severe the rope that will keep us bound.
She is doing a good job herself of shredding this rope by alienating her d18 in a nasty sort of way. But D5 will be the challenge for me. I want all contact with WAW gone as her bitterness has just become such an annoyance that it....well it's just an annoying nagging thing to deal with several times a week. Ugh!!!
I just have to get a plan for my own future in place and place all focus on it and let those chips fall where they may.
Blu I hope you are doing well and I appreciate your wisdom and support that you share with us.
Hi Lim,
When they do come back, it is with very mixed emotion. For me it was shock, relief, reconnecting, very quickly followed by anger, fear, and resentment. Then I cycled around several 1000 times. Sometimes over the course of several weeks and other times all in a day.
Blu
Thanks for replying Blu and sorry for hijacking your thread a little. What you said above is EXACTLY what I've been struggling with so its helpful to know its normal. I hate the thought that I will probably, like you, still be struggling with the same thing a year from now. Hopefully not as much as I am now.
The month of July was really hard for me. I'm doing a little better now. I've been working on detaching and not allowing myself to be carried up and down on the rollercoaster by things she says or does. I have to keep reminding myself that she is still not in her right mind. Its clear by some of the things she says and does that she has a long ways to go to make peace and make amends for what happened. My W IS trying; she is committed, she does love me, she is remorseful, she does want to stay M. But things are still night right in her head. I guess my choice is to be patient and supportive while continuing to work on my LiM issues or I can leave. While staying is painful, I don't think leaving is the right answer.
Deep breaths. Give it to God.
Coly, hello there.
Yes, I will def read your thread and post there :-)
I honestly did not cope very well. My H practically destroyed me because I LET him. I was a mess for a long time; anxious, depressed, and sickly. That is WHY I am here. I see now that I did not DB and how I stalled his ability to come back. More importantly than that, I did not take care of myself (love, value, and respect myself) like I deserved.
What helped me cope (when I did cope) were slowing down my mind, allowing myself to live one day at a time (sometimes one hour), not making decisions or reacting on emotions, then letting myself feel good when I didn't, pulling on every source of support that I could, weekly therapy, ADs, and reading these threads frequently. I am lucky to have wonderful family and friends.
I also reminded myself that life is long, people are more resilient than they know, and that things would be okay eventually. I knew somewhere inside that it was true. Accepting the grief is good. Feel the emotions and then let them pass. It's okay to mourn and grieve. And it's also okay to give yourself permission to enjoy things and have good days. You deserve that.
What I wish I could have also done differently and what I tell people here is to LET THEM GO. It's so simple it's hard to understand. When a person hurts us and rejects us, we cannot be nice, be friendly, and hope they will love us again. We can and should tell ourselves that we are worthy of more, we deserve better, and go dark. They do not deserve our attention, to see us weak, or to know our thoughts and feelings.
It wasnt until I let go of H and started to see a life without him that he realized what he was losing. It took me 10 months to hold my head up, let him go, and show the world I deserve better than this fool! No one wants a needy, sad, or weak person. No one wants someone angry or raging at them. No one is attracted to someone waiting for them as they are actively rejecting them. Again, so simple it's hard to understand.
Hold your head up high. Go dark. Let him go. And you take that time to take care of number one. You are number one. If sees over time that you are a beautiful and strong woman that is too good for him, then he can maybe prove to you that he deserves another chance. Maybe.
You can do this!
Blu
SH & Lim, I have to run now, but I want to check in with you fellas. I will be back later!
:-)))
(((SH))) you are taking the first step in realizing that it is easier to take care of others than yourself. Remind me, have you read about Nice Guys? You strike me as having a lot of those characteristics! As you know my H is a recovering Nice Guy and it is very hard, soul-searching, work. As you say, looking inside is painful and scary. And your confidence is more in the dumps because of W walking out.
I love seeing the R you have with your Ds. My H is a wonderful, devoted dad too. But he would put them before himself and over time he felt suffocated or empty. I also don't want to see you hide behind them. Is it possible you could be doing this? It's easier (less painful) to focus on kids and not the self. I think it would actually be great for your Ds to see you take a step back from them and have more alone time and your own activities.
Can you make this happen?
-Blu
(((Lim)))
Your sitch is very promising! You like SH understand the DB philosophy well.
As you know, piecing can be harder than DB. It's extremely painful to be a LBS with a wayward S in an affair, but there is also a crutch of blame and anger that we lean on. When W/H comes back, we must also look at our own part in the demise in the M. It's hard to do that when the other person royally F'd up and it's easier to keep the finger pointed at them.
I did this a lot in the first year. H was the bad guy, he made the mistake, and I was the victim. He owned it all. Problem with that is I would do myself a disservice; if I remained a victim I also disempowered myself from making important changes and growing personally.
It has not been until the last several months that I have been able to detach. It may sound counterintuitive that I am detaching during piecing, but we have realized that both never had healthy attachment/detachment. So now if this M ever ends, it will be a decision we can make and we can process it in a more healthy way. Saying that does not scare me anymore.
So my advise is give it more time. Week by week. Day by day. Mind over heart. Make choices that you want for your life but not out of emotion. In terms of the triggers and PTSD, well if you can keep on the path, those WILL fade over time too. They do not stain nearly as much in just a year or 2! That is where self care comes into play. Talk to your safe people, keep doing your GAL, and let W be on her own journey to healing as well.
-Blu
Thank you so much Blu and thank you for taking a look at my thread.
I've just had a complete melt down this evening. I am so angry that he has done this to me, to us! We are worth more than than that and all we have been doing is tiptoeing around him so we can make it easy for him to come back. Well I realised what a selfish man he really is and I have been rewarding him for it by being nice to him!
You have really opened my eyes Blu and I can see that my actions have helped him to break away too easily. Your right he is destroying me and I am letting him. Well I am still keeping the door slightly ajar but tonight I made the decision to let him go as at the moment I certainly don't want the man he has become! No more miss nice girl from now on!! I'm removing the bulb and going dark..!
Hi Blu,
I've been reading your postings since I started reading here. May I ask some questions? When you trigger, do you go to your H and tell him about it? WH told me he wanted to be there for me when I trigger but most of the time he can't handle it, especially if I cry. Instead of listening he gets defensive and last time told me I need to see a therapist as he cannot be mine. (I work long hours as I am a physician so finding time to go to therapy is basically impossible right now) Should I expect him to be able to see my pain? The other day was particularly bad as he started telling me how OW was a better match for him because she never complained, was always cheerful, etc., She also was a 21 year old with no responsibilities except herself and they only had a 7 week relationship in total. So yeah, they never argued, go figure.
Coly, I just posted to your thread. I wanted to add the importance of being gentle with yourself. This is all terribly traumatic. It took me a long time, and a lot of support, to heal from the pain and distress this caused me. Gather all the support you can right now.
Go to your safe people and let them care for you. Find some GAL activities for you alone and with D. Eat well, sleep well, exercise, meditate, take long walks, join a new group, let your mind rest, and do whatever it is that makes you feel a little bit better that day. Wake up the next morning, rinse, and repeat. One day at a time of this and one day at a time of going dark and cutting him out of the picture right now.
(((Coly))) You and D will get through this. All in time.
-Blu
Sara,
Hello. I have read some of your threads and posts as well. You are without a doubt very bright, strong, and have excellent insight into your sitch and others. I admire you, sister.
Your sitch is different in that your H is back but is still grieving loss of OW correct? Is there any chance he is still in contact with her? Is he willing to do whatever it takes to make the M work? Transparency? MC?
My H had an ea, we split, then he turned fully to R with OW for about 10 months and was a complete mess, even tried to leave her, but never fully came back, their R had to fizzle out and die a natural death.
Then he did a sharp 180 and was back. Since he has been back (16 months now), he has had no interest in her, talking about her, or even thinking about her. He regrets it and sees that he only turned to her to escape and not have to work on himself and the M. It sounds like your M is still far from that, correct?
So I do not know how I would cope with him still fantasizing about OW. It would disturb me and I would naturally exit conversation, pull back, and show him I don't stand for any of that BS. If it happened now, I would be done. Even this far into piecing I still have some reservations about him and the M. We have a stable M, but It takes time to reconnect and feel in love again!
Sorry, this is not very helpful I think. I just can't imagine the insult to injury these comments must cause you! If H said that in the beginning I think I would go back to DB, tell him to let me know when he feels differently, then go very dim or even dark. How would that work in your sitch? Has he ever truly experienced the loss of you and the family?
-Blu
Hi Blu,
Thank you so much for giving such a well thought out and candid response. My WH works in another state and comes home every few weeks to spend a week here. The OW used to work at WH's workplace but quit when I exposed the affair to her parents. The irony is they resumed their R the following month and then it died a natural death within 4 weeks. Since then WH has been pining away for her, even mentioned wanting to talk to her and demand an answer for "breaking trust" with him and not warning him before cutting him off. (I know, I know, the irony, right?) But she blocked him and he doesn't even know where she moved after relocating.
I did go very dim/dark early on in DBing (unbeknownst to me the affair had resumed) and WH used this as an excuse later to justify jumping back in the affair. Verbally my WH has said he wants to piece but the actions are still that of someone in the fog. Are they in contact? My gut says no but then they did buy a secret cell phone during the April affair so who knows. HE attended 1 IC session and the counselor recommended against MCing at this time. Later she told me he still does not appear motivated to come back to the M and is still grieving the loss of the OW. I think I just answered my own question, he can't piece if his head (and heart) are not in the marriage. I have access to his phone, email, Friend Finder app but it could all be for nought since I had this access while he was in the April affair. Until he moves home I am in limbo, I can't trust him and verify his words. Initially he was to move to my place in April, it got delayed to October...a few days ago he said maybe not until December. But his email reflects that he may be able to move home in about 7 weeks. For now I am sitting back and waiting to see what he DOES instead of listening to his words. And you're right, we are not piecing and I am back to DBing.
(((Blu))), thank you so much for your advice on here and for your advice on my own thread. I have gone dark since last Wednesday except for a text I had to send him about helping out with transport for D's work experience in September. Again his message about how unimportant I am to him was very loud and clear as he didn't respond for 4 hours!! Since then nothing...
How is everything going with you? I pray that one day I can be in your position, but at the moment it all seems do hopeless.... 😢
(((SH)))
Solid Heart, your words are solid and your heart is gold! You inspire me to keep DBing even tho I am technically piecing. I try and see DB as a way of life and I am no where near mastery!
Your thread has me thinking a lot this evening and I thank you. I will not hijack your thread but I am thinking a lot about how being an introvert (H) vs extrovert (me) leads to communication problems and to some extent the breakdown of our M in the past. Perhaps we all should explore that in our own sitch and what we can and cannot control.
More later.
-Blu
Blu,
I love that you dropped by my pad and offered to chat and I appreciate your kind words.
I would be honored to chat with an introspective person such as yourself as it relates to this topic.
I could use the wisdom that you possess to unwind some of the knots I have in my being for this.
I sense a frustration from you in some of your recent posts to others where they seem to be stuck and blowing off sound advice for progress in exchange for carrying on with the things they are doing.
Maybe some chat about your sitch or this topic can benefit you.
Mastery comes from learning, practice, mistakes and doing it all over again.
You deserve the opportunity to grow and progress as much as any other here.
And you are in a place to do so as you are looking within and that is the time to strike while the iron is hot and the heart and mind are willing to stare each other down for final supremacy........
Well that sound more dramatic in my mind than it actually came out.
(((((BluWave)))))
PS, love the Solid Heart.......
(((SH)))You flatter me so! (blush)
Thank you for posting. My thread was getting dusty back there! I appreciate you encouraging me to post about my sitch, and honestly I often don't because I recognize that I am where a lot of folks can only hope to be. That does make it difficult to "complain" so to speak. I am also working on accepting where I am at, even if it doesn't always feel right.
I can relate to a lot of what Lim and Stormchaser post. There are stages of piecing and I am just figuring them out as I go along and trying to accept the process. If it were not for this site, I am not sure I would be hanging in there to be honest.
Here are the stages I have experienced thus far:
- Initial overwhelming relief (short lived)
- Anxiety rapid cylcing with relief and frequent moments of extreme sadness
(Put back on weight loss in the first year)
- The longest stage has been anger and disbelief
- Somewhere 12-18 months I settled into acceptance of what happened and apathy
- Now I have reached a high level of detachment
I never reached detachment while we were separated or in the beginning of piecing. Perhaps that is where some of my frustration with others stems from. Hindsight is 20-20 and I suffered tremendously by holding on to H and hope so tightly. It wasn't until I let him go, found some strength and confidence, that he started to miss me and what we had.
Right now I feel fine. My life is relatively normal and calm. I don't know what will happen with my M in the long run. I do not have much motivation to work on things at the moment. I am okay with that too. I know H isn't going anywhere and in some ways I think he is waiting and hoping for me to come around more.
We will see. I am just trying to have faith in the process that I will feel differently over time. People and feelings are ever changing. I am focusing on me, my family, work, and just living life without extreme emotions. Those emotions can take over and become toxic.
-Blu
Hey Blu, sounds like Piecing is even more exhausting! You sound a little down in your post especially when you say you dont know what will happen to your marriage in the long run. I guess no one knows this but it does frighten me if H did want to R that I may not be able to forget the pain he has caused me.
However I'm starting to slowly get what you mean about holding on to H and too much hope. I am so scared to let go in case I stop loving him and this is still a worry for me. But I am much better now after all the 2x4's I got a little while ago but I am now at the stage where I think if he came back now I really wouldn't know how to react!
Please don't feel like you can't post on your own thread because your are piecing. You give us all so much hope and something to hold on to. We welcome all you advice and 2x4's its exactly what we (I) need!
Thanks, Coly, that is nice of you to say.
I am not down at all. I have realized that my H and my M are not the only important things in life. This has been a silver lining and can be for us all. I completely lost sight of that for years with all the heart ache and codependency that evolved. There are so many other things and people that deserve my attention and love.
I cannot go back and relive my sitch, and nor would I want to, but I do see how I could have done things much better. I caused myself more pain and angst and I suffered tremendously while H was gone! I focused so much on him, what he was doing, and if he would come back. This is the reason that I give out 2*4s and try to get others to stop focusing on their spouse--it doesn't help and it only hurts! It also hurts their chance of the spouse returning because they lose respect for someone they can walk all over and that is sitting there waiting.
I don't think you need to worry if you would ever take him back forgive him at this point. I thought about that a lot too. There is not way to know now how you will feel if and when that happens. It is will depend very much on his behavior and commitment to the M.
-Blu
I don't think you need to worry if you would ever take him back forgive him at this point. I thought about that a lot too. There is not way to know now how you will feel if and when that happens. It is will depend very much on his behavior and commitment to the M.
-Blu
yep, that resonates with me.. I think I often ask myself if I would want her back, and I'm not sure why I do it. I realize that feelings can change on a dime, so I doubt that I would even be able to decide what I would do now if that was to happen in the future.
Now I look at my W and I really don't even recognize who she is, not only is her personality like a whole new person, but she's lost probably 25% of her body weight, she was weighing around 130 and now I doubt she's even 100lbs, she went from a size 8 to a size 1, so I don't even recognize her physically. For the first time ever, I can honestly say that I don't even find her attractive when I look or think of her.
ok, I'm rambling, but I wanted to say hi blu...
Coconut, I saw my H at a funeral on Friday and he was like a total stranger to me ingis behaviour. Although completely opposite to your W losing weight as he seems to have put tons on! I still fancy him though - rubbish!!
Blu - I guess we are going to feel different things every day so you are right I can't base how I will feel when and if R happens on how I feel today...
All the talk about feelings and fear of loseing love........
Might I encourage everyone to research the difference between emotions and feelings?
Just google it if you are not sure what books may provide knowledge for you.
I don't think feelings change.....
Because feelings are a choice of response to an emotion.
An emotion is a built in protection system for humans
Understanding these 2 things can provide the knowledge for better habits which in turn will give each of us the power to be the person we want to be.....
Simple, right??
Well, simple maybe, easy not so much.....
But knowledge, then action, then good habits, then.....
Then calm and peace will be experienced in spite of any challenges around you.
I don't think feelings change.....
Because feelings are a choice of response to an emotion.
An emotion is a built in protection system for humans
If feelings don't change because they are a choice does that mean that choices don't change either? Somehow it feels as if my feelings are often changing without my choosing. ... That or someone slipped something in my drink because I am confused!!!
Save me from myself, SH! :-)))
-Blu
Oh gosh now I'm really confused as well!
I keep reminding myself that love is a choice and that my H chooses to not love me but as you say that means he can continue to choose not love me whether I am successful at DB'ng or not! :0(
I don't think feelings change.....
Because feelings are a choice of response to an emotion.
An emotion is a built in protection system for humans
If feelings don't change because they are a choice does that mean that choices don't change either? Somehow it feels as if my feelings are often changing without my choosing. ... That or someone slipped something in my drink because I am confused!!!
Save me from myself, SH! :-)))
-Blu
Blu, It's late, but I do want to respond.
If you have a chance, google it as I mentioned, as there is much info.
And then tomorrow we can chat a bit, because this is a topic that has much of my attention now.....my anxiety and depression issue after BD scared the hell out of me and I have to understand this....unbelievable the info on this, but it is so empowering.....
D18 is my living proof of this....
Can't wait to share with you and get your insightful thoughts as you look into it.
OK, I found some quotes that I will share, but I can't site my source as that goes against DB rules. I took this from a John Voris site. 2 paragraphs I found interesting:
- "Learning the difference between feelings and emotions is crucial in understanding ourselves and initiating personal long-term change. Experts in many fields of behavior agree that our deep feelings come from an unchanging belief about life that holds our identity together, while our emotions are purely physically based, subject to change and are basically reactions to life events."
- "As the objects in your world produce emotions within you, those emotions are collected in the subconscious and begin to accumulate. This is especially true when similar events are experienced repeatedly. Ultimately, they form an emotional conclusion about how to live life and, more importantly, how to survive physically and mentally in a world of chaos. When this happens a feeling is born. In this way, emotions serve as a sort of, “feelings factory.”"
So what I am gathering this much is that while both can change, we do not have control (influence) over them both. I cannot change my emotional response, however as I go through life the way I feel about things will change. As we make different choices in general, we are more able to mold and thus influence the way we feel.
Thoughts?
Bluewave
I have read something similar to this and agree that if we understand the difference we can become better people.
Blu,
The way I read it is that we do have control over our emotions, as that is how we react to external stimuli. We can control or reaction to events.
But feelings are a deep rooted, take time to build, and therefore are not controllable in a singular event.
i.e. - emotions are the little boats, we can turn them on a dime, if the wave causes us to tilt to much, we can adjust how we point the boat when the next wave hits and have less impact.
Feelings are the big cruise ships, they take forever to change course, you can't change course because a wave is coming so every "wave" has a similar impact.
If someone asks me on a date, but when I show up they stand me up, I would be upset and really disappointed because I was really looking forward to meeting up with them. The next time they ask me out, I decide that I'm gonna have a drink, strike up conversation with someone at the bar so if they don't show up, I didn't waste my time... they don't show up, but I'm not as upset (my emotions).
After getting stood up hundreds of time (no, I'm not that gullible), my feeling is that when asked out, I can expect to get stood up. When I get asked out next, they show up, but my deep down feeling doesn't just change to expecting people to show up when asked out, it would take a while of someone showing up to change my overall feeling.
- "Learning the difference between feelings and emotions is crucial in understanding ourselves and initiating personal long-term change. Experts in many fields of behavior agree that our deep feelings come from an unchanging belief about life that holds our identity together, while our emotions are purely physically based, subject to change and are basically reactions to life events."
Thoughts?
This makes sense to me. I hate my W right now, but I still feel love for her in my heart. Weird that it can be so, but this explains it well.
Good ones.
i did not forget.
It is late, but tomorrow I will have time.
Good start for this convo.
I see some good learning ad stuff here for us.
Sleep tight.
Okay....Tons of info, but I am seeing a consistency in the patterns and principles in my research of the topic, Emotions versus Feelings.
Blu, the quotes you share are in line with what I have studied.
Short definitions are
Emotions are physical response of the body.
Feelings are the definitions, beliefs and habits that we assign to the emotions.
Some interesting info I quote here as I found information with the best brain possible...
"Emotions are lower level responses occurring in the subcortical regions of the brain, the amygdala and the ventromedial prefrontal cortices, creating biochemical reactions in your body altering your physical state. They originally helped our species survive by producing quick reactions to threat, reward, and everything in between in their environments. Emotional reactions are coded in our genes and while they do vary slightly individually and depending on circumstances, are generally universally similar across all humans and even other species. For example, you smile and your dog wags its tail."
So I see this as emotions are those basic life form instincts meant to protect us.
The gazzelle in the African plains experiences the fear emotion when a lion shows up.
The emotion leads to heightened physical responses such as adrenaline and running for their life.
The moment the lion drops the chase or catches one of the gazelles, the emotion turns off and the herd of gazelles literally stops running and returns to grazing....
This is where we humans start our struggles as it relates to emotions....
"Feelings originate in the neocortical regions of the brain, are mental associations and reactions to emotions, and are subjective being influenced by personal experience, beliefs, and memories. A feeling is the mental portrayal of what is going on in your body when you have an emotion and is the byproduct of your brain perceiving and assigning meaning to the emotion. Feelings are the next thing that happens after having an emotion, involve cognitive input, usually subconscious, and cannot be measured precisely."
The human brain tends to kick into overdrive trying to assign meaning to the emotion.
This starts at an early age, and unfortunately in a day and age that we teach ourselves so many things in our education systems, we have failed to teach ourselves how to balance the natural survival instinct with the realities of our situations.
Basically it is the difference between having and knowing that this is happening within us.
Meditation has started me on the path to make these distinctions......
This is something I read that really caught my attention as it was literally me for the past 44 years....
"An emotion is a physiological experience (or state of awareness) that gives you information about the world, and a feeling is your conscious awareness of the emotion itself. I hadn’t really understood why the distinction was such a big deal, because I don’t experience a huge gap between emotion and feeling. I mean, if there’s an emotion going on, I feel it. Bing.
But this isn’t true for everyone. Many people are honestly unaware that they’re having an emotion. For them, the emotion and the consciousness of it are not strongly connected, and they don’t even realize that they’re fearful, or angry, or depressed. Their emotional state has to become so persistent that it drags them into a severe mood (or is pointed out by someone else), and then they can realize, “Oh, I guess I’ve been really sad about my mom, or afraid about money, or angry about work.”
For many people, there’s a disconnect between emotion and feeling; there’s no consciousness of the emotion at all. They have the emotion, but they don’t know about it. The emotion is certainly there, and their behavior displays the emotion (to others at least), but they aren’t feeling it properly."
I see now many of my mood states where I could not tell what it was, may actually been my inability to connect the two.
This information has helped me stop anxiety attacks, maintain calm in moments where anger use to boil over, listen and validate instead of argue or get worked up, and basically maintain more calm over all.
I see where years of poor habits and instinct reactions were futile, and now I more consciously respond.....
I see the key to gaining control here is through response, not reaction.
Reaction is to jump back from the ledge of a cliff when to close.....this protects my life
Respond is to sense the emotion raising up inside...assign a true principle to it....determine the value i can bring through influence, not force...and then respond accordingly.
This protects my true character and benefits those that I serve.
Most importantly it builds up the true me that I am meant and working to be.
Okay, so not so short and to the point, but hopefully food for thought and discussion.
Wow SH, everyone should really read and re-read what you just wrote. You explained it much better than my IC did when we were focused on me controlling my anger. Even though I got a basic understanding of how I could control my reaction to anger, I didn't correlate it to other emotions, such as responding to a comment from WW that I felt I had to defend myself.
Great nuggets. Thank you. And thank you for sharing your experience.
To take it a step further, we can also explore people with various levels of introspection as it relates to depression and anxiety. Those of us more prone to them may have a harder time coping with the crisis that happens during separation and D. I can see now that my struggling during my Hs A had a lot to do with my depression, anxiety, and ruminating thoughts. It was very difficult for me to "snap out of it," and I would feel stuck and hopeless.
I tend to think that those with very high or very low levels of introspection are more likely to have depression and anxiety.
If you are very aware of your feelings and how they relate to emotions, you are more likely to overthink, and thus ruminate, which leads to a negative cycle. However, if you are aware of this, you can also empower yourself to thought-stop and create new patterns, or meditate, etc. When my emotions were triggered, and my feelings were self defeating, I would get myself in a circle of negative thinking and could not "pull out of it." It was incredibly painful and I felt hopeless.
On the flip side, those that are unaware of how their emotions relate to feelings, may not realize that they have these tools to make changes. However, they might be more likely to accept their reality and overall feel less extreme misery. There is something comforting about not being able to make a change and dismissing the overall responsibility.
Is ignorance really bliss? Perhaps those people also feel less joy.
Clearly, I am not an expert and have not done my homework. Just journaling my thoughts :-) ... Now SH can chime in with the real information. lol.
-Blu
C-nut,
Thank you for the feedback and I am glad you found the info helpful. I continue my research and study as there is much on the topic and there are some variations. The tiny bit that I have shared resonated with me and has helped me and my D18 much in our struggles and challenges with the emotions and feelings.
Hopefully you will take up my challenge to do a little research on this topic and chime in as well. You are one of my DB neighbors that I have followed since you moved in here, but have not had much I could share with you. I do believe that this topic may benefit you as you are working on yourself of late.....
Blu,
So you bring up some interesting points that I have thought on today and will share mine.
I then want to share a bit more of what I have read...
To take it a step further, we can also explore people with various levels of introspection as it relates to depression and anxiety. Those of us more prone to them may have a harder time coping with the crisis that happens during separation and D. I can see now that my struggling during my Hs A had a lot to do with my depression, anxiety, and ruminating thoughts. It was very difficult for me to "snap out of it," and I would feel stuck and hopeless.
I tend to think that those with very high or very low levels of introspection are more likely to have depression and anxiety.
Blu, I believe I understand the point you are making here and it makes sense on the surface.
So here is the catch.
In the psychology world Introspection and rumination are the polar opposites...
Introspection is the the review of oneself in a positive light and then move forward...
Rumination is the review of oneself in a negative fashion and to do so continuously....
So in essence, introspection is a healthy understanding of ones emotions and can lead to good habits and feelings.
Rumination is the act that actually focus on the bad and goes over it time and time again which leads to the depression and poor habits.
Now I know also that there is the biological element of bad chemicals in the body that are attributed to depression and that there are those that are more prone to depression, so that is a separate factor all together.
Well, you know me, that was not good enough for me to know....
So further research has been studies and my hypothesis based on what I have read is that....
While there are chemical factors that some have that tend to lead to a higher chance of depression, so this holds true with being overweight....
But in both cases, good habits can and do overcome the chemical/genetic factors.....
Up until recently it was believed that the brain was done forming at age 25 and you were who you were at that time no matter what.
Science has recently changed this thought.
By age 25 your habits are mostly hardwired by age 25, but, the brain can be wired with good habits.
Just like physical traits.
Heck, they say that men start losing muscle mass at age 40, but I am in the best shape of my life and have more muscle on me now than when I was 25...
Okay, so I got to slow the hot air here now.....
So point...
Depression and anxiety can be attributed to chemical happenings in the body and poor habits created over a lifetime in reaction to emotions.
If you are very aware of your feelings and how they relate to emotions, you are more likely to overthink, and thus ruminate, which leads to a negative cycle. However, if you are aware of this, you can also empower yourself to thought-stop and create new patterns, or meditate, etc. When my emotions were triggered, and my feelings were self defeating, I would get myself in a circle of negative thinking and could not "pull out of it." It was incredibly painful and I felt hopeless.
On the flip side, those that are unaware of how their emotions relate to feelings, may not realize that they have these tools to make changes. However, they might be more likely to accept their reality and overall feel less extreme misery. There is something comforting about not being able to make a change and dismissing the overall responsibility.
For me, reading and trying meditation was the education that I needed.
It has worked for me and for d18. Both of us fighting our unique battles with "depression" and anxiety.
I think women may have more challenges as it relates to the chemical balance in all of this. D18 and I work with the same principles with meditation, but her challenges differ from mine and she has to use different practices than I, but we get to the same calm and awareness of ourselves.
I was unaware of my emotions. My W called me out for being depressed throughout the marriage. It was due to my lack of emotional expressions and inability to say what I was feeling. I did not believe tat I was depressed.
After being nagged, I tended to blow up. Not out of anger, but frustration and desperation because I could not adequately express myself. She saw it as anger and danger.
After the BD, I was completely aware of my emotions.
I worked to convince my IC that I was depressed.
He did not bite, bless his soul, and continued to work with me on my behaviors and responses.
Took me over a month to get him to tell me, maybe I was depressed, but that I would need to get a diagnosis from a psychiatrist.... I was then afraid that it was true and focused on changing my behaviors....I was not depressed....I just did not know how to handle these anxiety attacks which were new to me and the overall feeling down.
So IMHO, depression is a tricky thing and may be called out far to often, and even the clinically depressed folks that recover, do so through treatment to include meds and CBT.
Cognitive BEHAVIOR therapy.
Interesting right?
Is ignorance really bliss? Perhaps those people also feel less joy.
I used to think so.
My W was the happiest go lucky person in my eyes....
This last year has shown me another side to it all.
She is certainly in a depressive state.
Others that have known us both and some that knew her before I did have expressed another side.
One of unhappiness, even before we married.
Possible depression.
Mood swings from happy to upset.
Never cried, accept less than a handful of times when it was anger that drew out the tears.
She has been described to me by folks as unhappy and sad.
I said WTF!? Why did no one tell me this before?
Anyway, my point is, she is living in ignorance right now......
There is no bliss.
And I worry for her.
My thoughts........
More food for thought from the best brain possible research of mine.
"By understanding the difference between and becoming aware of your emotions and feelings, determining which is which and their root causes, and then inserting conscious thought followed by deliberate action, you can choose how you navigate and experience the world. Being able to do this means responding or reacting which can make the difference in a calm or chaotic life."
"I don’t mean to imply that by becoming aware of emotions and feelings and learning to respond rather than react that life will magically become filled with rainbows and butterflies. I am suggesting that by learning the difference and changing your thinking and behavior, that no matter what is going on around you, you can maintain your balance, your sense of peace, purpose, and hope and move forward toward your goals."
Very interesting as I found all of this to be true as I was studying meditations.
Ponder on this folks ad share your thoughts, reading and knowledge.
This will benefit each of us not only now, but in all of our relationships.
(((SH))) Thank you. Lot's to think about. I tend to use words as I define them, but perhaps am using them incorrectly.
Instead of saying introspection, I should say that such an awareness of my own emotions and emotional responses had kept me ruminating and going in the same circles. I can see now how this caused a lot of additional pain.
When I was able to thought stop, give myself a break from the overwhelming feelings, and then move on to a differnt healthy/distracting or fun activity, it worked well most of the time. I would even need to remind myself that I could come back to feeling bad later. Sounds silly, but it did work. We must our bodies and minds a break from the stress.
Sometimes you just have to know how to pull yourself up by the bootstraps and keep marching on! I never mastered it, but I developed several tools that I can use the next time I face a crisis in my life.
The more I am removed from that time in my life, the more I find silver linings in my sitch. They are there for all of you, even if you cannot see them yet.
-Blu
"Most people are so completely identified with the voice in the head – the incessant stream of involuntary and compulsive thinking and the emotions that accompany it – that we may describe them as being possessed by their mind. As long as you are completely unaware of this you take the thinker to be who you are. This is the egoic mind. We call it egoic because there is a sense of self, of I (ego), in every thought – every memory, every interpretation, opinion, viewpoint, reaction, emotion. This is unconsciousness, spiritually speaking. Your thinking, the content of your mind, is of course conditioned by the past: your upbringing, culture, family background, and so on. The central core of all your mind activity consists of
certain repetitive and persistent thoughts, emotions, and reactive patterns that you identify with most strongly. This entity is the ego itself.
Recognize the ego for what it is: a collective dysfunction, the insanity of the human mind. When you recognize it for what it is, you no longer misperceive it as somebody's identity. Once you see the ego for what it is, it becomes much easier to remain nonreactive toward it. you don't take it personally anymore. there is no complaining, blaming, accusing, or making wrong. Nobody is wrong. It is the ego in someone, that's all. Compassion
arises when you recognize that all are suffering from the same sickness of the mind, some more acutely than others. You do not fuel the drama anymore that is part of all egoic relationships. What is its fuel? Reactivity. The ego thrives on it.
When you react against the form that Life takes at this moment, when you treat the Now as a means, an obstacle, or an enemy, you strengthen your own form identity, the ego. Hence the ego's reactivity. What is reactivity? Becoming addicted to reaction. The more reactive you are, the more entangled you become with form. The more identified with form, the stronger the ego. Your Being then does not shine through form anymore – or only barely.
Though nonresistance to form, that in you which is beyond form
emerges as an allencompassing Presence, a silent power far greater than your shortlived form identity, the person. It is more deeply who you are than anything in the world of form."
I got really good at thought stopping by reading Anne Rice vampire books and then replaying scenes in my head at bed time. This helped immensely when my stupid brain decided to go a trip down memory/resentful lane. I am also a die-hard Trekkie and will replay entire episodes in my head. (My God I just showed allll my nerd credentials, didn't I?) I am not allowed any educational or self help stuff an hour before bedtime.
Brain candy was the answer for me, lol.
Emotions come and go. Putting names to them helps to figure out what your brain is doing - we call them feelings. My counselor always asks 'What are you feeling today?' - he taught me what names I can put emotions to, so that I understand the emotion, and also can articulate WHY I felt that emotion.
If I follow my emotions, like my EX-WW, I will find cheeseless tunnels, row after row. I must stand by my BELIEFS, as anchors for my battleship at sea.
Knowing your feelings is like adding masts to the ship - I can raise and lower more sails - and batten down the hatches when times get tough, or raise more sails to put some distance on my route (aka - this feeling is GREAT! I want to be like this for a while longer!) My emotions will continue, but now I can CHOOSE to react (usually a bad idea) or make a calculated response... or no response at all.
My response is my responsibility. If you tell me that your response to your emotions is involuntary (hitting a wall, screaming, crying), it means you're letting the tail wag the dog. My response is my responsibility, always.
Another key - knowing your feelings, and articulating them, means you can share them with others! Example: "Hey, I had a great time with you, you made me feel really special - thank you!"
I used to believe people could read my mind - and understand I was happy or sad. People can't. Many blogs I read about Married life repeat that you can't mind read. SO true. Big mistake on my part with my EX-WW. But telling us NOT to mind-read is only a quarter of the way to helping the situation. You must learn how to tell people how you're feeling, not through involuntary reactions to emotions, but articulating them through descriptive words, naming them as feelings. That's another 25%; then the other half is finding courage to tell those we love how we feel, and also demonstrating how we feel (love) through actions... not just words.
I have learned much in the last year. I pray my EX-WW will someday learn the same. I truly pray for her every day. I can't change her, or how she feels. I can't even try to start teaching her this - it has to come from within - a desire to want something better. Unfortunately, she had many bad teachers in her life about feelings and emotions, and it would take years (me thinks) to get her battleship to turn around...
I can't fix her, I can only pray for her. That's part of detachings - the other part is making sure my ship is on the right course - and purposely working the ship to keep it on course. It's my responsibility.
Thanks, everyone! Good stuff :-)
I don't often post about my current sitch. I don't want that to be the entire focus of my life and I am trying to accept where things are. when I read some of the threads here--especially from the women with WH--it does makes me think about where I was a couple years ago and where I am now.
I don't know if I will ever feel the same about my H. Yes, that M is dead and gone and we must create something new. I get that. Yes, it takes two people to destroy and thus recreate the R. I get that too. My life is fairly normal and I don't have any big complaints about H. He is actually a very nice person, a wonderful father, a hardworking man, and he has looked inside himself and made changes. He is truly remorseful and regrets what happened.
All that said, it doesn't change how I feel. Some days I don't feel anything. I don't need much advice and feedback, and I am okay ducking under the radar. I accept where I am today. I am saying this because for those of you that don't want your M anymore and are ready to move on, I think that is okay. I didn't let myself consider that as an option, I was too scared. I know that sounds sad and goes against why we are here, but it's the truth.
We all have options and choices. I don't want to hold onto anything too tightly anymore, I want to just live life.
-Blu
Yes, some very good information and thoughts here.
paschal, I love to see what you shared. I know as you review it more it will start to stick.
Sara, we all have to find what works for us. I like the approach that you used. Sometimes we can all be to serious, but your approach is good for the mind.
trumpet,
Now your post really strikes a chord for me.
It is a golden post...
I am going to copy to my thread as it resonates with me and I want to be able to review and ponder on it several times.
(((SH))) Thank you. Lot's to think about. I tend to use words as I define them, but perhaps am using them incorrectly.
Instead of saying introspection, I should say that such an awareness of my own emotions and emotional responses had kept me ruminating and going in the same circles. I can see now how this caused a lot of additional pain.
When I was able to thought stop, give myself a break from the overwhelming feelings, and then move on to a differnt healthy/distracting or fun activity, it worked well most of the time. I would even need to remind myself that I could come back to feeling bad later. Sounds silly, but it did work. We must our bodies and minds a break from the stress.
Sometimes you just have to know how to pull yourself up by the bootstraps and keep marching on! I never mastered it, but I developed several tools that I can use the next time I face a crisis in my life.
The more I am removed from that time in my life, the more I find silver linings in my sitch. They are there for all of you, even if you cannot see them yet.
-Blu
I completely see what you are saying, in spite of the terms you used.
I am bad about breaking down words and looking for the nitty gritty of the definitions as I find valuable details in the details....
But that is not to take away from your point.
Pulling oneself up by the bootstraps no matter what the manner is for sure the key and you have done this and you do so much to swing the 2X4 in the manner to encourage others not to have to do it the hard way.
You have become aware of so much, and this is the valuable parts of your story that I so appreciate you sharing.
I don't often post about my current sitch. I don't want that to be the entire focus of my life and I am trying to accept where things are. when I read some of the threads here--especially from the women with WH--it does makes me think about where I was a couple years ago and where I am now.
Acceptance is key, and you have a good focus on wha you want to change inside yourself, and your advice to others is golden.
I don't know if I will ever feel the same about my H. Yes, that M is dead and gone and we must create something new. I get that. Yes, it takes two people to destroy and thus recreate the R. I get that too. My life is fairly normal and I don't have any big complaints about H. He is actually a very nice person, a wonderful father, a hardworking man, and he has looked inside himself and made changes. He is truly remorseful and regrets what happened.
As you continue to work on you, the paths of the future will lead where they lead.
The good, is that you don't have to decide if you will ever feel differently about your H.
As you become more aware of your emotions and respond in a manner that is fulfilling for you, the feelings will settle where they are meant to.
You are traveling a good path IMHO.
All that said, it doesn't change how I feel. Some days I don't feel anything. I don't need much advice and feedback, and I am okay ducking under the radar. I accept where I am today. I am saying this because for those of you that don't want your M anymore and are ready to move on, I think that is okay. I didn't let myself consider that as an option, I was too scared. I know that sounds sad and goes against why we are here, but it's the truth.
Study more about the emotions and the feelings.
My STBX stated that many times as she left. She said she did not feel anything for anyone....
My IC indicated that is not really possible, but that one can surprise feelings, but they will come out, and typically it is not in a good manner.....
This is what lead me to my research of this topic we are having.
The post I made about one having emotions, but not really being aware...until it boys over...
I am not saying tat is you, but learn of this, and then you will be equipped to respond in the time that is right.
Sorry, I know you said you did not need advice....
We all have options and choices. I don't want to hold onto anything too tightly anymore, I want to just live life.
A very wise approach to moving forward IMHO.
I ran across this story that really has me thinking....
"For example in my 18 year marriage, my ex-husband held all the power and control, was emotionally cruel, and uncaring. In the years following our divorce, he continued the treatment by harassing me legally as he drug me in and out of court for a decade with false allegations of endangering the children, cohabitation, and more. I learned to fear him and his actions. It got to the point where if I just saw an email from him in my inbox, my heart would start pounding, my breathing would become rapid and shallow, and I would actually start sweating. Then, I would soon feel dread, anxious, and worried. My body was exhibiting the instinctual emotion of fear followed by the feelings I had learned to associate with him.
During the marriage and for years after, I reacted from this fearful place as the overly emotional, angry victim who fought back. As the years passed after the divorce, I slowly evolved, began to live more mindfully, and learned a different way. It took years, but I was eventually able to not knee-jerk react to his antics and to consciously and deliberately choose my feelings and behaviors according to who I wanted to be and how I wanted to live my life. When I mastered this skill, life calmed way down for me, and I managed to find peace and happiness despite the fact that he continued his attacks on me.
While I was in the process of growing, it would frustrate me to no end because my heart would still pound upon just getting a message from him. I felt like my body was betraying me while, in my head, I knew better and remained calm and confident. My body still exhibited the emotion, but I inserted conscious thought and instructed myself as to how I wanted to feel and proceed.
In the gaps between emotion, feeling, and acting, we all have the power to change and direct our lives for the better. Understanding your emotions and managing your feelings with conscious thinking so they don’t hijack your brain followed by conscious action can actually change your brain through neuroplasticity, the scientifically proven ability of your brain to change form and function based on repeated emotion, thought, and behavior, and change your life."
Thank you, SH. I needed this today.
I was asking for some divine help while I was floundering with all the toxic interactions today and I saw your post above.
I am starting to realise with great horror that this is one of the life lessons that I have to learn asap before I start repeating all these horrific life lessons.
Mind over matter. Control and act in spite of my emotions.
You are a superhero!
Hey bluwave SH said I should stop by and I am really glad that I did I have just spent the last hr or so reading your thread and have been trying to take it all in
I think I am going to have to re read as I feel lots of really helpful things have been said and I want to get the most value from what has been posted it really is in lightening
Thoughts and feelings it is all too easy to get stuck in a feeling
Personal growth for me is what I hope to take out of my stitch
Every day is a new day
Hugs
Ghost feeling more At Peace
Thank you for stopping by.
I welcome all advice, feedback, thoughts and hijacks. I'm not great about posting consistently, but I try and make my way back and read up on folks.
SH, you are correct that not feeling isn't possible, as that would mean that one was just stuffing emotions, and they are bound to resurface in less healthy ways. I actually feel many things but what I mean is lately I don't feel much attraction and love for my H. (that was hard to admit and even brought tears to my eyes)
Like most of you, I want my M. I want my family intact. I recognize that it is also the best thing for our children and our finances. I appreciate the value of being with the same person over time. I don't think that splitting up and moving on to the next person bring people more happiness. I understand that people make mistakes and that he made a terrible mistake. I even understand how this happened.
If all of you in DB land came together and created a list of what the wayward would need to do for the LBS to find forgiveness and have success in piecing, well he is doing it. But, there is a big but. None of that is changing the way I feel.
I am trying to go with my brain and not my heart. I choose each day to do what I believe is the right thing. I think I can accept what happened. But, I just don't know how I will feel over time. There is something I know I will need and want in love. It makes me so sad to say this, but I just don't know if this will work for me in the long run.
-Blu
I understand how you feel, it would be very hard for me to take my spouse back after an A. I used to think that was the one situation in which I would initiate a D myself. In any other situation I would fight for the M.
When a relationship is built on trust, and this is a fundamental breach of trust, then what can you do.
Thank you for stopping by.
I welcome all advice, feedback, thoughts and hijacks. I'm not great about posting consistently, but I try and make my way back and read up on folks.
SH, you are correct that not feeling isn't possible, as that would mean that one was just stuffing emotions, and they are bound to resurface in less healthy ways. I actually feel many things but what I mean is lately I don't feel much attraction and love for my H. (that was hard to admit and even brought tears to my eyes)
Like most of you, I want my M. I want my family intact. I recognize that it is also the best thing for our children and our finances. I appreciate the value of being with the same person over time. I don't think that splitting up and moving on to the next person bring people more happiness. I understand that people make mistakes and that he made a terrible mistake. I even understand how this happened.
If all of you in DB land came together and created a list of what the wayward would need to do for the LBS to find forgiveness and have success in piecing, well he is doing it. But, there is a big but. None of that is changing the way I feel.
I am trying to go with my brain and not my heart. I choose each day to do what I believe is the right thing. I think I can accept what happened. But, I just don't know how I will feel over time. There is something I know I will need and want in love. It makes me so sad to say this, but I just don't know if this will work for me in the long run.
-Blu
Blu
Reading this creates a swirl of thoughts and emotions in me right this moment...
I have had these same thoughts running through me with much frequency....
I have fought to suppress them...
Shed some tears as you have just now....
Told my brain that we gotta get it and the heart on the same page...
Tried to suppress the emotions...
Bottle them up....
Tuck them away...
and throw them out....
I have struggled with feelings of guilt, because how can I be at this point after such a short time....
My W, did not cheat on me, nor do anything to me, except leave in a big hurry....
I felt that it was out of the blue, but with each passing day I look back and see signs and red flags popping up for years....
Have I thrown in the towel so soon?
I am still DBing...but is has been for me....and only me....not to bust the d....not since she left....
After she called me the other night, my d18 said I was acting odd...she asked me just out of the blue, "Dad, would you take her back?
I responded so quickly, that I was in shock...
I replied, "No."
"She would have to do to much work for me to even consider it....."
I then paused in my own state of shock as d18 looked at me.....
I then said, "I'll cross that bridge if we get to it." "But for now, I must complete putting myself back together and move forward."
Anyway, there I go again, babbling on.
My point Blu, is that what you share is huge.
I have sensed that you have hinted at this, but you have now expressed it.
And guess what?
This is your right and choice to make.
He did what he did, and is working his way back, but as I read a recent post by job, one of the options is that the LBS has moved on when the WAS/WS returns to reconcile.
I strongly believe, that you are putting in the work and when the time does come, you will know it and you will be able to say with your head held high and all the confidence in the universe...."I have made my decision, and it is......"
Blu, there will be no shame, regardless of that decision.
You have taken time, and put in the work, and even as he has done so as well, by him making the decision he did in the past, that means the next decision is yours....
There is no wrong or right, except, for what ever it is, that you deem is right for you.
((((((((((BlueWave))))))))))
Quick hijack....
JksD, I am so glad to be inspired to be able to provide divine help in your time of need.
I pray for you every day and look to be here for you when you are at a place to come back frequently....that and so I can get an update on the inverted moves that you are working on.
Ghost!
So glad you made it over here.
Read,
Re read
and read some more.
You and I have much work to do, and there is knowledge here that you need....
So the work can begin and stay consistent.
qt, my friend....
focus off of taking her back or not.
You are much to early in the process to continue to think on this..
much work still to do on yourself.
IMHO, we each need to put in the work and time, before we earn the "right" to take them back or not....
this is not to say that you can do what you choose, but trust me, I see many a LBS here, that rushed to toss the WAS/WS out, only to regret it later.
Lets focus on what you know is right to put in the work, then ponder on where you are at for taking her back or now....
assuming the option is an option at such point.
Sorry for the 2x4, my friend, but we will get you into the right place yet....
I sense you are so close to being there, so please read the info here about your emotions, and then your responses to temper your feelings....
Great power comes in this discipline my friend.
Great power indeed.
I will share more in the next day or two.
There is still much to discuss, if you agree Blu.
It is your thread, and as much as you say we can have it, I still prefer to ensure the convo is of benefit for you.....
“Gracious acceptance is an art - an art which most never bother to cultivate. We think that we have to learn how to give, but we forget about accepting things, which can be much harder than giving.... Accepting another person's gift is allowing him to express his feelings for you.” Alexander McCall Smith
I ran across this story that really has me thinking....
"For example in my 18 year marriage, my ex-husband held all the power and control, was emotionally cruel, and uncaring. In the years following our divorce, he continued the treatment by harassing me legally as he drug me in and out of court for a decade with false allegations of endangering the children, cohabitation, and more. I learned to fear him and his actions. It got to the point where if I just saw an email from him in my inbox, my heart would start pounding, my breathing would become rapid and shallow, and I would actually start sweating. Then, I would soon feel dread, anxious, and worried. My body was exhibiting the instinctual emotion of fear followed by the feelings I had learned to associate with him.
During the marriage and for years after, I reacted from this fearful place as the overly emotional, angry victim who fought back. As the years passed after the divorce, I slowly evolved, began to live more mindfully, and learned a different way. It took years, but I was eventually able to not knee-jerk react to his antics and to consciously and deliberately choose my feelings and behaviors according to who I wanted to be and how I wanted to live my life. When I mastered this skill, life calmed way down for me, and I managed to find peace and happiness despite the fact that he continued his attacks on me.
While I was in the process of growing, it would frustrate me to no end because my heart would still pound upon just getting a message from him. I felt like my body was betraying me while, in my head, I knew better and remained calm and confident. My body still exhibited the emotion, but I inserted conscious thought and instructed myself as to how I wanted to feel and proceed.
In the gaps between emotion, feeling, and acting, we all have the power to change and direct our lives for the better. Understanding your emotions and managing your feelings with conscious thinking so they don’t hijack your brain followed by conscious action can actually change your brain through neuroplasticity, the scientifically proven ability of your brain to change form and function based on repeated emotion, thought, and behavior, and change your life."
Love all of this. Thank you so much for posting.
Actually one of the first things I read this morning, and it's set me up very well for the day ahead I think.
I understand how you feel, it would be very hard for me to take my spouse back after an A. I used to think that was the one situation in which I would initiate a D myself. In any other situation I would fight for the M.
When a relationship is built on trust, and this is a fundamental breach of trust, then what can you do.
Thank you for this. I never thought prior that I would be able to see past any kind of A. So here I am now wondering the same thing. I keep thinking and telling him he needs to try harder. I have asked him to initiate more time together, more plans, and more affection. Perhaps that is me keeping a wall up? Not sure. All those little things about him that I learned to see past, now feel like deal breakers. Ultimately it is the betrayal of the A. Do I really want to spend the rest of my life with this in my history? I am starting to ask myself that. I adored this man and was so in love with him. I still miss feeling that way.
Blu, that pains me to read. You've been through so much, you want to love him so bad, it's hard to read that you don't feel "that" way about him and question if you ever will. How long do you wait and see, how long to you keep up the struggle, when is enough enough??? Only you can answer those things, it's hard to know when your past giving up too soon.
You always hear about M that survive an A and how they are stronger and better than they ever were before.. but I wonder if there is a limit to how "involved" the A was before it is just too much to come back from.
I hope you find your happiness, I am praying and rooting for you.
Ahhh thanks, C-nut, you are a good man.
I don't know. I guess I have been down about it lately. I think in the early stages of this, we all put time lines and limits on things. I know I did. "If there is any type of A, I'm out. If he doesn't come back in X amount of time, I'm done. If the EA turns PA, I can't see past that. I'll give it X amount of time. He must do x, y, z. One year. Two years. When all the kids are adults and move out. etc. etc. etc." What does all that mean anyway?
I recall reading too that if a M can survive an A, that it can be stronger than before. Who said that? I'm not sure I buy into it! Lol. This is so hard. On the surface, it appears that we have it all. And there are so many details that I have not included that would make any type of separation or D an extreme hardship on our family. More so it saddens me to even think about that. ... But I still think about the A all the time. It's a weight on my shoulders that never goes away.
I hung out with a dear friend recently who divorced several years ago. She started dating someone last year and things are going well. He is a much better match for her in several aspects and she is happy. They both have their separate homes and there is a significant driving distance, so they can only see each other a couple times a week. Yes, she has to deal with the difficulties of coparenting with XH and some financial constraints. Her XH is also difficult and doesn't communicate well. But she is happy.
So I know that people can D and move on and find happiness with or without another partner in life. I wish I could accept this more and put the A behind me. I want to be with my H and I want my family together. I just feel sad and empty when I start really thinking about it.
-Blu
Hey Blu, sorry you are having such a tough time in your R at the moment. I cant imagine the turmoil you are going through trying to make sense of everything.
It makes me sad because you have been so giving of your support on this board and you have given so many of us hope that reconciliation can happen but I am also grateful that you are honest about how hard reconciliation can be. I think there is a danger of thinking that if our WAS/S's come back to us that the majority of the work would have been done however I have read a great many posts on the 'Piecing our Marriage Together' board and it scares me to death.
You know that the OW is a skank, she has nothing on you. Your H chose to come back to you even though you didn't really DB very well! Maybe you give her too much space in your thoughts. She doesn't deserve it!
BluWave -- my apologies if I've missed it, but are the two of you in MC? I would think that could be very helpful in your situation if you could find a really good one who specializes in helping heal As. Hang in there!
Coly, haha, skank, that had me, lol. I honestly pity her, she has no moral compass and is thus unable to have and hold authentic Rs in her life.
So what I have not mentioned is that OW was a "friend" for several years. We had a circle of friends and our children were a group of buddies. We all spent entirely too much time together. She pursued a friendship with H my outside of the circle and manipulated a LOT of time together with him. All the while picking up my kids and smiling in my face.
I don't think about her or focus on her. She is nothing to me. What is hard to accept is that he let this happen. And that he was so weak and selfish. Even though he has made many changes, has significant regret and remorse, I still do not respect him as I want to respect a person that I am married to.
JRuss, we were in MC for a year and we decided to take a step back and focus more on ourselves. She was great and right on the money. I found myself going in the same circles and it kept me in a negative loop. I do think a large part of piecing is time. How much time, well I have no idea!
Blu
Just dropping by to give ya big virtual hug and thank you again for all that you have shared and the sincere compassion that you have shared with me.
You BluWave, are one special lady that has gone through hell and back.....
Remember what process takes place to create a diamond....
BluWave, there is a crown out there that will need a diamond....
(((((BluWave)))))
Ahhh, thank you, Solid Heart. I could say the exact same to you!
So, I am starting to realize that I have cast a bit of a dark cloud over DB land. Here I am 18 months into H being back, and I am still telling you that I have mixed feelings about H and my M. Perhaps it is easier to post about the negative? So here is some positive.
There are a few things I have been telling my H and asking for our entire relationship and M. Just little things that are important for me in a romantic R. These things are even more important now, as we have been overcoming the separation and the A. Some of these things are hard for H to do as it's not in his nature and out of his comfort zone. I have been telling him lately how important it is to me and I realize I now need that for this M to survive.
So this weekend he tried. It was slightly awkward and not perfect, but the principle that he made the effort is what counts. So we ended up having a nice date and evening together. No amazing fireworks, haha, but it was nice in that I felt more connection than I have felt lately. Do I feel more or less hopeful? Not really, just working on acceptance and living day by day.
-Blu
I think once crises mode has ended we begin to rehash all the past sins and the resentment creeps in. It's hard to re-open your heart to someone who has been so harsh and careless. I find reading After the Affair was helpful. Though I do struggle with letting the psat remain there vs. rug sweeping.
I wanted to get your thoughts on this, BluWave. Do you think reconcilation is possible if the WS does not show remorse in a way you can accept? What if they refuse some of the "rules." (like my WH recently was alone with a female co-worker in a non-work environment and this triggered me, he feels this is me being controlling)
Sandi pointed out something that was very important for me. I had forgiven my W for the A but I had not forgiven her for the betrayal. Its weird that they two were separate for me but I realized that I had become very angry and I was angry because of the betrayal and the deceit. I realized that I had to forgive her for that and so I did. I did it alone. I did not tell my W that I was forgiving her for that. I was alone in a hotel room on a business trip in prayer and I forgave my W for the betrayal. I said it out loud and I said it several times so that I knew I meant it. Doing that means that I have to let it go and no longer hold it against her.
So long as you are being reasonable in your "rules", the WS should comply. If they don't, then I don't feel that they are truly remorseful. And without that, I think the R will never fully recover.
There is a book on Amazon about How to Help Your Spouse Heal from Your Affair. It is short and very direct on what the WS should do to help you heal. If they aren't willing to do these things, then I'd worry about the future of the R.
"Do you think reconcilation is possible if the WS does not show remorse in a way you can accept? What if they refuse some of the "rules." (like my WH recently was alone with a female co-worker in a non-work environment and this triggered me, he feels this is me being controlling)"
JMHO - but no I don't think it is possible under these circumstances. If someone isn't showing remorse, or willing to do 'whatever it takes' then it's a it of a non-starter I think.
It took some time for me to fundamentally realise that I didn't want to be in a R with someone who wants to 'browse' or have inappropriate contact with others outside of our R. That's not the kind of R I want to have or how I want to live.
So, when you ask 'is R possible' the fundamental Q is 'is it possible FOR ME' in those circumstances. I suspect the answer would be no.
The thing is, soonish after BD, we are so desperate to get things on track, we try and work with what isn't really possible. And actually, it takes two people being 'in' to really make this work - not one 'in' and one kind of 'halfish'
That's JMHO of course....and it may sound a little uncompromising...but that's where I came to over time.
Good luck with things Blu xx
I think once crises mode has ended we begin to rehash all the past sins and the resentment creeps in. It's hard to re-open your heart to someone who has been so harsh and careless. I find reading After the Affair was helpful. Though I do struggle with letting the psat remain there vs. rug sweeping.
I wanted to get your thoughts on this, BluWave. Do you think reconcilation is possible if the WS does not show remorse in a way you can accept? What if they refuse some of the "rules." (like my WH recently was alone with a female co-worker in a non-work environment and this triggered me, he feels this is me being controlling)
I am going to think on this and come back to it. I often give advice based on my experience--because that is what I know--but I recognize my H is different than yours. Hmmmm ....
(((Sara)))
Sara,
I have been thinking about this today. I agree with LiM and Sotto. Piecing is extremely difficult, and it starts with both people being committed to the M. That commitment comes with some contingencies of doing whatever it takes to see if the M can be recovered before starting to build a new one. That only works if both parties can listen and learn to understand their spouses experience and perspective.
Admittedly I have struggled to see H's perspective at times--as much as I may logically understand how thing happens, I have not been able to accept all of this. However this is paramount for the one that had the A to do. It is even discussed in the book you mention. For your WH to enter piecing, he must be willing to understand how much he hurt you and to find true remorse. I think that must happen before you even begin to trust him. Now in terms of how long it should take him to get to that position, well that I don't know. I don't get the sense he is there yet, and I imagine there are many factors that affect how long it takes them to get there.
Think about it, if you never thought he would break your heart, and then he did--in the worst way possible--so now you know what he is capable of, why would you hand it over? My H has done everything to show complete transparency, regret, and remorse and I still ask myself this.
(((Sara)))
Blu
So, I've turned a bit of a corner in the last week. A series of events, some wisdom from lovely people, and reading here, have brought me to a realization. I was better at DB than I have previously given myself credit for. It's easier to focus on the wrong, and what could have been better, especially for a perfectionist like myself. So I was inspired by a person dear to me to post what I did do that was right. Some of these things I did all along, some took me time to master, but by the time I let go of him, I had few backslides.
I kept strong boundaries with WH and told him clearly what I would put up with and what I wouldn't. I did not let him close to me--physically or emotionally--until he cut off contact with OW, offered transparency, and was committed to the M 100%. I demanded the respect I deserved.
I was honest with him, and while at times this showed my vulnerability, he also knew where I stood and what my position was. I beat myself up the times I let him see my emotions, because it was not in DB form, but I can see now that it also helped him see me for who I was. Even though I didn't trust him, he knew he could trust me and that I meant what I said. Even in his fog, he trusted my words.
I protected my children from his behavior and his R with OW. Everyone told me that I couldn't control him and what he did, but my instincts told me to never stop trying. I was clear with him that I would never be okay with him bringing the kids around her and that it would be damaging to them. He didn't. And even though she tried, he knew I was right and he didn't.
While my GAL and 180s were a frequent struggle, I never gave up trying. I still exercised, did nice things for myself, and went to IC every week. I invested a lot of time in my Rs with other people, family, friends, and I still was able to create good memories in an otherwise dark time.
I started to plan my life without him, consulted Ls, and told him that I would be fine without him. I realized eventfully that this was true. I also realized that I didn't want a person that could give up on me and our family and that if he wasn't wiling to work for it, he wasn't good enough anyhow. It took me a long time to accept this but I did.
I blew it all the time--several nasty texts, lashing out, and even cried and begged in the early months. Overtime I stopped altogether. Most importantly I still woke us the next morning, went to work, took care of my kids, and kept on going. I can see now that those backslides did not prevent him from coming back, but showed him that I was still human and also reminded him that he was in fact hurting me. I didn't pretend I was fine when I wasn't, but I was human and imperfect.
I have been really hard on myself because I made a lot of mistakes. When reading here now I can see that we are all human and we ALL make mistakes. Beating ourselves up does not move us forward. We teach others how to treat us. I am so much stronger now than I ever was before any of this happened. Another silver lining and there will be more to come. I believe it, therefore I know it to be true. We create our own destiny.
So I no longer regret all my mistakes because they got me where I am today. My future will be bright no matter who is in it. Yours will be too if you decide you want that.
Blu
Great post Blu. Maybe the principles of DB are eventually instinctual after we have done all the things that don't work and MWD's books are a way of making us see this much ealier on so we don't go through months of doing the wrong things?
I think my instinct to let this go is kicking in but it hurts even more now that I am being forced to make a decision I don't want. But like you say life still goes on especially if you have kids you have to creat some sort of normality for them eventually.
I know me and D will be okay. I guess for me it's looking at those mountains I still have to climb over to get there but I still don't think I have the right gear to make those climbs. Maybe it's just taking that leap of faith to the other side in the knowledge that I will survive, I need to get that into my head.
Thanks for all your advice and support Blu. Without you I think I would still be dancing to H's tune desperate to get him back whilst making myself look like a doormat!!
This was something I needed to read blu. You know my struggles. But I see the mistakes we all make. Like you say, it's coming to the realisation that you will be fine and that you deserve more. That's the penny that needs to drop for me. I know that we will be fine without him, I would have my babies, I can financially cope, I have good r's with my family and some amazing friends. Friends who have been there for all the struggles in my life and stay by my side. He doesn't have that, he is friends with users all about there own agenda, and when they have got what they need from him, they will drop him.
Great post Blu. I need to remember the "why do I want someone that gave up on us" and if they don't wanna work for us we deserve better. You are right we are human and we make mistakes but we all will be ok because we will survive.
Blu,
I was reading this thread and, because of your user name, it reminded me of a Bees Gees song titled "Blue Island" (lyrics below).
------------------
Living in a world that dies within,
you are they who try and touch the wind.
You could be the blessed one
that makes me love you.
And doing what you've never done before,
taking every wave that hits the shore,
you could be a silver star that shines
on my blue island.
It's gonna be a blue island.
See you on a blue island.
Take you to a blue island.
Blue island.
You can see the rain.
You can feel the pain
that no part of me is going through.
Everybody say
we can find a way.
Do you know the place you're going to?
You're going to a blue island.
This is what the lonely heart must know.
This is what it takes to make it grow.
You could be a child alone.
But you may save the world.
Maybe it's the words that mean goodbye.
There but for the grace of God go I.
I can see an open door that leads to my blue island.
Gonna be a blue island.
See you on a blue island.
Take you to a blue island.
Blue island.
Blue island.
Blue island.
Lately I have been pondering on the process for the WS to realize how bad what they did was and truly feel remorse. In my case, my WW recently (6 mos after this all started) told her BFF that it was my fault she had an A, she told my cousin that she was friends with OM first (they only knew each other 1 mos before A) to justify her continuing "friendship", she told me during counseling that I think it was so much worse than it was...
6 mos in, she still feels zero remorse for what she's done. She's lost my family, she's lost me and we've sold our house. Yet before we signed the contract to sell I said you know what I need, and she replied "yeah, to give up just about everything". She's lost most of her long time friends, she's lost my family (a huge part of her previous life), she's lost everything but our son and the fire dept. and yet she still feels no remorse.
I'll be honest blue, I don't know how you decided to accept your WH back into your life after a year, because I am 6 mos in and my walls are so high tha I don't see any way she could ever get past them to come back to me. I still hope one day I will get a true apology, but I'm past ever expecting that, and I'm past caring if I don't...
I'll be honest blue, I don't know how you decided to accept your WH back into your life after a year, because I am 6 mos in and my walls are so high tha I don't see any way she could ever get past them to come back to me. I still hope one day I will get a true apology, but I'm past ever expecting that, and I'm past caring if I don't...
Coconut,
I feel the same way that you do. I guess everyone's situation is a bit different. In my case, I don't see any possibility of reconciliation because I don't think my wife has the ability or capacity to really understand how much damage was done just because she chose her "best friend" over her family. I could be wrong, but I truly don't see it happening. For me, I'm fairly certain that waiting and hoping would be a useless exercise so my choice is to move on and be a great dad and have fun with life.
Coconut, doodler,
It's strange reading both your posts as I've been feeling the same way the last number of weeks. Like you both say, it's the feeling of her just not having the capacity to see and understand. I'm 10 months down the road (which I know is still short in many cases) but there is still so much hostility that is so hard to understand. I've been hurt many times by people, friends and by my W but haven't carried this much hostility for this long.
Sorry Blu to be on your thread, I do feel that you show an amazing amount of strength and character.
Should I expect him to be able to see my pain? The other day was particularly bad as he started telling me how OW was a better match for him because she never complained, was always cheerful, etc., She also was a 21 year old with no responsibilities except herself and they only had a 7 week relationship in total. So yeah, they never argued, go figure.
As hard as it is to keep our chins up, I think if he doesn't want to see it, better not to show it, at least for now, because by getting too emotional you are just confirming the bad thing he thinks about you. There may come a time for that but you need to wait until he owns up to what he did and expects you to be angry at him.
Blu,
I was reading this thread and, because of your user name, it reminded me of a Bees Gees song titled "Blue Island" (lyrics below).
------------------
Living in a world that dies within,
you are they who try and touch the wind.
You could be the blessed one
that makes me love you.
And doing what you've never done before,
taking every wave that hits the shore,
you could be a silver star that shines
on my blue island.
It's gonna be a blue island.
See you on a blue island.
Take you to a blue island.
Blue island.
You can see the rain.
You can feel the pain
that no part of me is going through.
Everybody say
we can find a way.
Do you know the place you're going to?
You're going to a blue island.
This is what the lonely heart must know.
This is what it takes to make it grow.
You could be a child alone.
But you may save the world.
Maybe it's the words that mean goodbye.
There but for the grace of God go I.
I can see an open door that leads to my blue island.
Gonna be a blue island.
See you on a blue island.
Take you to a blue island.
Blue island.
Blue island.
Blue island.
Oh Doodler, you flatter me so!
BluWave,
I bought the Bee Gee's CD back in the mid-nineties (the title of the CD is "Size Isn't Everything") and that was one of the more memorable songs. I liked that CD so much that I bought it as a birthday gift for several of the students who worked for me at the time (I worked for a university). Anyway, your username, as well as the circumstances that bring us together on this forum, reminded me of that song.
From what I see on the forums, it is pretty unusual for a WAS to start looking back to the marriage within months. I saw Wonka post once that nine months was at the shortest end of the timescale. And then we see situations. I think Crimson was one - where it has been two or more years before significant movement.
I think the key issue is that the LBS often works through a lot of stuff during that time - with no sign of hope from the WAS. Or perhaps the WAS completes the D process. All the time with little hope given. And after all of this, sometimes the WAS begins to regret and truly feel what has been lost. But I don't think that really happens until the loss is truly felt. And I don't think the loss is truly felt until the LBS is really moving on and appears to be closing the door. I don't think we can really pretend to close the door, I think it is when we genuinely get to that point, that things can change.
Of course some situations are 'unsalvageable' at BD and will never turn. And I think all will look that way - but some do later turn, we just can't predict which.
And if there is MLC as a factor, that extends timescales further. I'm not wanting to depress anyone - only highlight the need to really move forward with your own life. There is nothing to lose by doing that. It's a win-win, and may even draw the WAS back - but that's a bonus...xx
Doodler, how old are you? You know, just in case my M doesn't work out. Lol. Or should I say "how deep is your love?"
Sotto, I completely agree with you. It is somewhat depressing tho, and as we see here in these threads, WS and WAS often do not return to the M. Perhaps they also stop posting at that point. And yes, it wasn't until I let go of my WH that he did his sharp 180 and wanted me back. That is why I am a huge proponent of letting them go, going dark, and assuming the end. Especially if there is an A involved; you need to take yourself out of plan B entirely. Don't ever let them think you are waiting or still available. They lose respect.
I have yet to see a wayward come back to the M after being put in the friend zone, but I would like to read examples of where this has worked. Is that more common with a walkaway? I think some folks confuse being a lighthouse with being too friendly--there is a big difference that gets misunderstood. I can tell you I didn't offer my WH friendship or family time and I realized soon on that he would take the cake if I gave it. No way. In the beginning I tried this for the kids sake, but I wasn't being true to my own feelings. It hurt. Then he got to have family time and run off to OW. NO!
One thing I want to tell people is that they don't have to be so hard on themselves. In my sitch I blew it ALL the time. For many months. I was actually a bit crazy. Mean. And emotional. My WH was scared of me and I didn't realize that I was self sabotaging because I wasn't a lighthouse and he saw no hope of me ever forgiving him. My behavior was keeping him away.
After several months I just burned out and gave up. I took my energy off of him and gave up hope. I started to picture my life without him. I stopped being mean and just let go. He didn't hold my previous behavior against me. He somehow blamed himself for hurting me and forgave it. So I guess my point is, we are only human and it's okay to make mistakes. You will change and so will they.
I do see a lot of posters that are too friendly in my opinion. I think the wayward loses respect for you when you do that. Be strong, have confidence, and don't slide yourself in the friend zone. It's quite simple, when someone dumps you, let them go and move on. Don't be friends with them if you don't want a friendship and to watch them date someone else. That svcks!
Ok, I'm done rambling.
Blu
I do see a lot of posters that are too friendly in my opinion. I think the wayward loses respect for you when you do that. Be strong, have confidence, and don't slide yourself in the friend zone. It's quite simple, when someone dumps you, let them go and move on. Don't be friends with them if you don't want a friendship and to watch them date someone else. That svcks!
I'm probably in the camp that most would think I'm too friendly with my WAW. I was concerned about it too (still am frankly). I even asked my DB coach what she thought and she told me in my situation being friendly to my WAW was the correct thing to do. The last few years of our M we hardly ever spoke to one another and it was rarer when there were words of kindness in our voice; especially mine.
Both my IC and DB coach are in agreement (my IC doesn't know I had a DB coach) with the path I'm taking. My W and I may never get back together, but at least I know she won't regard me with dread or hurt when she thinks of me from now on. She seems happy and relaxed, which is good.
RDS, I am not too familiar with your sitch. We each must do what works for us tho. If one of your goals is to have a friendship with your W, even if the M doesn't work out, then perhaps you are heading in the right direction. In my sitch, I did not want a friendship, I wanted my M. If he was not willing to come back and commit to the M, then we would only have limited contact--about the children and finances. It would have been too painful for me to have friendship after what he had done to our family.
Admittedly, I am having trouble understanding people's sitches and the advice some are getting from their DB coaches. I keep reading sitches where the LBS is so focused on what the wayward is doing, every little sign that they are coming around, and trying very hard to speak their LL and nice their way back into the M. I feel that the LBS should respect themselves more, take focus off of the waywards, and not let them back into their lives (or bedroom) until they commit to the M. I just don't get it. I cannot see how these crumbs lead to reconciliation. That takes both partners willing to make personal changes, commit to the M, and then take steps to restore the M over time. I don't think the wayward will do that if they know they can have the LBS without doing the work.
In my opinion DB is about self love, self respect, and letting go of the person actively hurting you. Respect yourself and demand to be treated the way you deserve. Why do we hold on so tight? Because we too are hurting, our confidence is shattered, and we are scared. I see a lot of LBS focused on the wayward, and wanting to label them--MLC, depression, foggy, etc--and while that may be true, what difference does it make really? A person's reason or excuse for bad behavior may be a good explanation, but it is not a justification. It is still unacceptable. Whatever the explanation is, we still need to demand that we are treated the way we deserve. We should not allow them back into the M until they are able to do that. They need to work on themselves and make the changes first. This takes time and success cannot be measured in a few interactions.
I continue to be impressed by the posters that understand DB and apply it. I wish that I had done a better job from day one. I get it now and I know it's not too late for me. I hope for others that they can stop going in the same painful circles, find their worth, and teach the wayward how they deserve to be treated. If they don't treat you the way you deserve, point them to the door. Stop paying attention to them and waiting for them to change. Focus on you and detach. My H has been back and doing the hard work for over 1.5 years and I still put myself and my own needs before him, that should never change. YOU are always number one. If they can see that you get this, then they will learn how to treat you, not the other way around.
Blu
BluWave,
An excellent posting!
BluWave,
I don't really post here often now but your last post speaks so much of the truth. The only person who is really going to love is us, and if we don't do it our WAS/WWS can't do it for us. They are so much in a second state, and searching for someone to love them/ make them feel better about themselves (I call it chasing a dream) that if they don't do the work that all of us here LBS are doing unfortunately I feel it would be difficult to reconcile.
I just hijacked SH's thread (sorry SH) so I decided to put it here instead. Wondering if it's time for me to take a break from this site?
(((SH)))
That was a nice bit on forgiveness. Thank you.
Admittedly, I struggle with forgiveness. It has been some time now that H has been back (1.5 years) and I have not fully forgiven him yet. Some days I don't even want to. I agree with the quote that it happens in steps. It is not simply a switch that is turned on or off. My process has been rather slow--3 steps forward and 2 steps back.
I don't know what I am so afraid of. I can understand why the sequence of events happened in the deterioration of our M and I can see my part as well. Where I get stuck is simply the betrayal. To be honest, I may come to a point where I move away from this M. That is what my instincts tell me. Not anytime soon, not in the next several years, but some day. I want to know that I stuck it out and tried my best. H is a changed man--a good man, H, and father--but I continue to long for the way I used to feel about him. My heart is forever damaged. How do you forgive someone fully for that?
Sometimes I think coming here and reading/posting prevents me from moving forward and finding more forgiveness. When I read the posters' struggles, pain, and desperation I can't help but want to protect them. I don't feel an emotional trigger, but more a reminder of what I went though and that I allowed this man to destroy me. It took me far too long to let go of him. and pick myself up. It's is taking many of you too long as well!
I wish more posters would stop pining for the person who is hurting them and let go. LET GO. It's your only hope for healing and their only hope for finding themselves and possibly a way back to the M. I feel that so many here are trying to be a lighthouse, a friend, and just waiting, when really they are a door mat with a lost soul.
Maybe I need to go on a DB diet. Maybe that is why folks in piecing go dark from this site. I can see so clearly where folks are going wrong but I feel so powerless. I really admire all of you that keep coming back and helping others for all these years.
Everyone deserves respect, love, and you are ALL valuable. But you cannot look to your M to find yourself or your happiness in life. It comes from within. Even if and when they do come back it will never, ever be the same. The M is dead. The innocence is gone. Only if you both have let go, grieved the end, and learned to love yourself, and only then, can you build something stronger together. I may or may not reach that point, but I am a work in progress.
Blu
Blu, you must do what is right for you and your sitch. If it means stepping away from this forum in order to help you in rebuilding your M then you must do that.
However I for one will miss you terribly. I value your no nonsense advice and 2x4s and this is what I need to get myself thinking more clearly. You made me realise that family time was benefiting H more than me so I put a stop to it and I feel much better for it. With the help of you and Job I have managed to stay dark for nearly six weeks (except for birthday message) and I know it doesn't seem like it but I do feel better for it. I realised that contact was adding to my stress and anxiety which has started to effect me physically.
I am really sad to hear that you are struggling with forgiveness at the moment. I sometimes wonder if I would ever be able to forgive H even if we don't reconcile so I can see how hard this must be for you. You have suffered the ultimate betrayal and that can't be easy to leave in the past.
Blu, I really appreciate your honesty about your sitch and its this honesty that we need on this forum but if it means it's holding you back then you must do what's right for you and your family. (((Blu)))
Blu, I agree with Coly...you have to do what is right for you..I also have got a lot out of your posts!!! You are very to the point and it really makes me think and not stress out about every little interaction I have with my W. Just wanted to say hang in there!!
I don't know anymore. The more I learn, the less I realize I know. But that keeps me smart. And humbled.
To start a new thread or not to start new thread, now that IS the question.
You guys are all great tho and thank you for the complements and support!
Blu
I wish more posters would stop pining for the person who is hurting them and let go. LET GO. It's your only hope for healing and their only hope for finding themselves and possibly a way back to the M. I feel that so many here are trying to be a lighthouse, a friend, and just waiting, when really they are a door mat with a lost soul.
[/quote]
HOW? I think this is the question us newbs desperately want answers to. How do you LET GO? and even when we have (as I feel like I've done most of the time)...it's almost as though we haven't.
cheesyt, accepting the M is over is the hardest step, but it must be the first step! It's where we all all get stuck and why this can take so long. After acceptance comes the grief process and then taking action. Thinking, feeling, and posting here is not enough to move us forward. We must look inward and create a new life outside of the M.
I just read this post by PigPen and I will paste it here--he has had wonderful success in recovery and even now has a TED talk. I like the island analogy he uses. I think one of my struggles is that I had not completed my Island 2 when my H came back. I still find myself swimming back and forth. Another reason I tell all of you to LET GO and start focusing on you. Step by step, and day by day, create a new life--let go, GAL, & 180--and this will lead to the detachment. Continued attachment is unhealthy and only keeps us stuck and in pain!
Great question Surfer. Are you a surfer btw? Surfing was a huge part of my recovery through all of this!
I can sum up the process and advice that helped the most this way, I think I wrote this story out for someone on here but looking at it like this helped me immensely. I call it "The Two Island Theory."
Island 1 had my W, my M, and my old life on it. I LOVED that island, but it wasn't the best place for me. I thought it was when I lived there but I was overlooking a lot of dysfunction. But I was so heavily invested in living there that I was blind to so much. That blindness made me fight and fight and fight to stay living on Island 1. I had made a commitment to be there, had my life energy, my time, and my finances invested there. Leaving there would be excruciating on so many levels I just couldn't do it.
That being said, I had been kicked off that island with BD. When my WAW left, that island was no longer my home (as Cadet says, at BD things are usually done). The more I fought to get back on the island, the more my W wanted me off of it. She had already moved to her own little fantasy island elsewhere so I was fighting to be there alone or to remain in the memory of it. Mostly in the fantasy of the memory of it. The glorification of it. My mind would play all kinds of tricks with me, changing memories to only reflect the positive, having me use any and every interaction with my W to secretly try to trick her back onto Island 1. And the pain, oh the pain of not being there with her drove me nearly crazy. I NEEDED to be back there with her, at least the old me did.
Buuuuut. When I came on here, the advice was "The only way to get back with your W is to walk completely away from Island 1. To do this, you have to do it down to your core, not just do it in name, but to live it, to breathe it, to fight day in and day out to authentically walk away from it." That's some impossible chit to do, but I had to do it. We all do.
I did it by creating Island #2. That was an entirely new life for me. Sobriety, men's groups, a change of my business, meditation, getting back to surfing, starting a blog, therapy, seminars, constant audiobooks - a rebirth of sorts over and over and over again. The old PP had to go. How he thought, how he reacted to things, how he lived. The new PP had to be born of new experiences - not dissociating from pain, being honest, finding new friends, acquaintances, a new tribe. Changing my DNA through new experiences. Leaving my comfort zone so far behind me I had no idea where the hell it was. Every situation was terrifying, but into them I walked, day after day.
Everyday I would ask myself if I was building Island 2, or staying stuck on Island 1. Was I pretending to be on Island 2 while still secretly living on 1? Was I telling people I had moved on without really moving on?
The key was to fill up my new life (Island 2) with new experiences, with so much richness, so much excitement about the future, so much wonder about what could possibly happen next, and (here's the key) so much GRATITUDE for what I still did have, that I simply stopped thinking about Island 1. I viewed it as my old life while a new one was doing everything in it's power to come out of me. Working with a Jungian therapist helped with this, as did reading stories of people who had similarly lost everything and then rebuilt their lives in exactly the way they wanted to. Cultivating curiosity about where this all may lead and living in that curiosity was a game changer. Suddenly my life went from "all loss" to "holy cow, maybe this all could be leading me somewhere I never would have gotten without it...let's hang out and find out."
Really Surfer, it's about listening to the advice you get here with a mind that says, "How can I take what I'm being told here and live it fully?" as opposed to "How can I take what I'm being told here and use the painless parts of it, or as little as possible, while secretly hoping that doing so gets me my spouse back?" You have to be willing to throw yourself into the unknown day after day after day.
Cadet says to use the time you're given - are you using every single day as an opportunity to better yourself? That's action, not just thought. What actions are you taking day in and day out? Are you relentless about them? Are you the new 5am regular at the gym? Are you getting counseling? Have you hired coaches if you can afford them? How is your life different than how it was in your M? Are you going to meet ups, learning how to salsa, learning a new language, an instrument, changing your wardrobe, etc. How much ACTION are you taking?
Action is the key. That and letting go. Letting go every day. Of the possibility of reconciliation, of the desire to be with your S again, any of it. ALL of the success stories I read had one theme in common - they were done. They had moved on. They were dating someone else and loving it. They had moved across the country. Etc. Then and only then did things shift. It's a double edge sword, to get something back you want you have to stop wanting it! That's a challenge of spiritual magnitude my friend.
Now instead of wanting my W back, I want an incredible partnership. I want to know my partner has my back in all areas. I want exceptional communication. I want us to talk about the hard chit, the stuff that no one else is willing to discuss. I want to be able to lay my entire soul out on the table and say, "This is me. Here are great parts, here are the dark parts, here is the stuff I'm still confused about, here are the potential pitfalls. This is all of me, let's see you."
The type of person I'm going to co-create with will look at everything on that table and say in return, "Awesome, thank you for sharing all of that. I may get scared but I'm not going anywhere. I'm in this especially on the hard days. Btw, here's me. Here's what I've got in my soul backpack."
If that person is my STBXW so be it. I doubt it, she hasn't done the work I have. But if she steps up, we can talk about it. BUT, that's the bar I'm holding for a future relationship. The future Mrs. PP is going to have to be one hell of a woman, because she's getting one hell of a man. No longer am I after just one woman, my STBXW, now I'm after that partner, whomever she may be.
I hope this helps.
PP