Divorcebusting.com
Posted By: MoveFrwd This much I know is true - 06/03/16 08:43 AM
Through my journey, some things I've learned:

- GAL is important. But not only getting a life...meeting new people is so critical. These people will know you as "you" and not as your WS' STBX. This gives you no reason to discuss your situation with them or dwell on it. It gets you out of the house and engaged in something new.

- PMA is also important. Choose your own happiness. The more you act happy, the more you will be happy. If you havent, watch the TED Talk by Shawn Achor on the Happiness Advantage. Your life is so much more than your WS; find the things that bring you joy.

- Learn to validate. Learn to communicate. It isnt about being right; it's about finding that common ground to work together. Listen and understand people; be engaged. It's OK to disagree, but HOW you disagree will play a huge impact in the direction your conversation goes.

- Goal setting is one of the first steps for a reason. It sounds dumb and its a lot of work, but the activity really is paramount. How can you steer a ship if you dont know where you are going? Nobody sets out in a car and says "hmm, I think I'll go left here" - you cant get where youre going unless you know where you want to go.

- The success or failure of your marriage doesnt define you. You define you. Who you are, who you want to be. You are so much more than just your marriage; a parent, a friend, a colleague, a sibling, and so on. Dont let your failings define you. Learn from them and keep moving forward.


Feel free to add more.
Posted By: Coconut Re: This much I know is true - 06/03/16 09:56 AM
- Think long and hard before outing A... In my case, I immediately posted text messages between OM and WW on my and WW Facebook pages. I was angry and wanted revenge. It took me about 3 minutes to realize that it was a bad idea and told my WW so she could delete the post. Had I not done that, I truly believe my current reconciliation would not be happening. If you want to out the AP to their spouse, is that gonna free up both AP's to be with each other? I only told one person, and that was only so that I had someone to talk to, which I needed. But I assured their secrecy before telling.

Stand your ground with boundaries - Letting WS knowing what is and what is not ok with you is critical. My sitch turned the corner when I clearly stated what I was not ok with and what the consequences would be, it was the first time that my WW reacted to anything I said.
Posted By: pinn Re: This much I know is true - 06/03/16 10:21 AM
Originally Posted By: darknes
Through my journey, some things I've learned:

- GAL is important. But not only getting a life...meeting new people is so critical. These people will know you as "you" and not as your WS' STBX. This gives you no reason to discuss your situation with them or dwell on it. It gets you out of the house and engaged in something new.

- PMA is also important. Choose your own happiness. The more you act happy, the more you will be happy. If you havent, watch the TED Talk by Shawn Achor on the Happiness Advantage. Your life is so much more than your WS; find the things that bring you joy.

- Learn to validate. Learn to communicate. It isnt about being right; it's about finding that common ground to work together. Listen and understand people; be engaged. It's OK to disagree, but HOW you disagree will play a huge impact in the direction your conversation goes.

- Goal setting is one of the first steps for a reason. It sounds dumb and its a lot of work, but the activity really is paramount. How can you steer a ship if you dont know where you are going? Nobody sets out in a car and says "hmm, I think I'll go left here" - you cant get where youre going unless you know where you want to go.

- The success or failure of your marriage doesnt define you. You define you. Who you are, who you want to be. You are so much more than just your marriage; a parent, a friend, a colleague, a sibling, and so on. Dont let your failings define you. Learn from them and keep moving forward.


Feel free to add more.


Yes!

1 and 2 were so important for me. Going to that yoga class where I knew no one literally changed my life. It was crucial.

For PMA... when people ask how I am.. I say 'couldn't be better'. Took a while to get that down but really does effect my overall mood.

Working on 3 now. I think this one will determine how my relationship with WW plays out.
Posted By: Cadet Re: This much I know is true - 06/03/16 11:28 AM
Hey darknes now that you have your own thread are you going to share any of your own story?
Posted By: doodler Re: This much I know is true - 06/03/16 12:02 PM
darknes,

You've been riding on everyone else's threads? Dude! I never noticed. Tisk tisk. wink

But yeah, I want to hear your story and I want to know why your name is misspelled.
Posted By: pinn Re: This much I know is true - 06/05/16 05:37 PM
anything dark? bueller??.... bueller??... bueller??
Posted By: doodler Re: This much I know is true - 06/05/16 05:44 PM
pinn,

I think he changed his name to Abe Froman.
Posted By: pinn Re: This much I know is true - 06/05/16 05:46 PM
ahh missed that... thanks doodler!
Posted By: doodler Re: This much I know is true - 06/05/16 05:49 PM
pinn,

That was a reference to Ferris Bueller. You know, the sausage king of Chicago.
Posted By: pinn Re: This much I know is true - 06/05/16 05:53 PM
hahaha... you know I read that 8 times and I was like damn.. that sounds really familiar.. then I googled it and was hoping i would get back here before you responded... hahaha
Posted By: RSG Re: This much I know is true - 06/05/16 06:40 PM
YOU'RE Abe Froman??? LOL. Classic
Posted By: MoveFrwd Re: This much I know is true - 06/07/16 06:27 AM
Originally Posted By: doodler
I want to hear your story and I want to know why your name is misspelled.


Im not really planning to share the details of my story. The basics are that I am divorced and moved on to a new life of being the best parent, friend, colleague, and partner I can be. I've been through the wringer and come out the other side.

They only allow 7 letters in the user names, and I figured if I made it "drkness", then you guys would think I meant "dorkness" wink
Posted By: MoveFrwd Re: This much I know is true - 06/07/16 06:30 AM
- Everyone's perception is their reality. You cant convince someone that what they are feeling is wrong. That's akin to telling them that they dont feel hungry, or hot, or tired. If they feel neglected, abused, threatened, disappointed, frustrated, etc, then thats how they feel. Even if you didnt mean to cause these feelings, thats how they are feeling. That doesnt necessarily mean that what you did was 'wrong', but thats how they feel. Don't try to convince them otherwise.
Posted By: doodler Re: This much I know is true - 06/07/16 06:39 AM
darkness,

I didn't realize there was a seven character limit on the user name; I accidentally hit the max with doodler. (Maybe the sign-up page mentioned the max characters, but I've long forgotten.)

During your dark days of marital woes, did you use DB techniques? Was there anything that worked best for you?
Posted By: Cadet Re: This much I know is true - 06/07/16 06:40 AM
Originally Posted By: darknes
The basics are that I am divorced and moved on to a new life of being the best parent, friend, colleague, and partner I can be.

The basics are better than nothing - now I know you are not much different than me - a divorced parent, living life to the fullest.

Thanks for sharing!
Posted By: MoveFrwd Re: This much I know is true - 06/07/16 07:11 AM
Originally Posted By: doodler
During your dark days of marital woes, did you use DB techniques?

I found this place far too late to have any impact on my marriage. I broke every one of Sandi's rules daily for a couple of months after BD.

Originally Posted By: doodler
Was there anything that worked best for you?

In saving my marriage? Absolutely not.

But the things Im outlining in this thread are things Ive learned that have helped me in every day life, in my new relationships, and have helped me to become a "better" person.
Posted By: MoveFrwd Re: This much I know is true - 06/20/16 01:11 PM
It's so hard to think that you dont have control over your own life. I know I have felt that way; that my ex had all of the control in the end of our R and I had none. But thats garbage. I always had control of me and only me. I forgot that my partner was continually making a choice to be with me. So now, I do what I need to in order that my new partner will wake up and choose to be with me each and every day.
Posted By: CWOL Re: This much I know is true - 06/20/16 01:53 PM
That is a good point, not just being content to live with inertia but generating energy to keep you together.
Posted By: SH_ Re: This much I know is true - 06/27/16 09:20 PM
Just checking in to see what other words of advice and wisdom, darknes has today.
Posted By: MoveFrwd Re: This much I know is true - 06/28/16 05:22 AM
Originally Posted By: SH_
Just checking in to see what other words of advice and wisdom, darknes has today.


Detachment is HARD. And it's a process.

I find that even today, I still have moments where I think back and wander down some cheeseless tunnels.

How did it come to this?
Why couldnt we make things work?
How could that person do this to me?
Why didnt I get a "fair shot"?

It could be a song on the radio, a certain place, a certain person, a certain saying....lots of different little triggers are out there that can remind you of the past. All you can do is watch for them and stop yourself as you start to wander down those tunnels. Theres nothing good at the end of them.
Posted By: doodler Re: This much I know is true - 06/28/16 05:50 AM
darknes,

Detachment is a funny thing. Most people on this forum seem to think of it as something that's explicit; something that you make happen by actively detaching. I read statements like "I'm detaching" or "I need to work on detaching." In my opinion, detachment isn't something that you actively seek, it's the end result of moving on with your life and working on improving yourself.

I think too many of us spin our wheels trying to actively detach when that energy is better spent on doing things that make us happy and help us build a new life (we call that GAL). Detachment is the end result of our personal growth, it's not a goal in and of itself.

I think most of us would probably benefit from forgetting about detachment and focus in fun and fulfillment. Detaching will take care of itself.

As usual, that's just my opinion; I could be wrong.
Posted By: MoveFrwd Re: This much I know is true - 06/28/16 06:05 AM
Originally Posted By: doodler
darknes,

Detachment is a funny thing. Most people on this forum seem to think of it as something that's explicit; something that you make happen by actively detaching. I read statements like "I'm detaching" or "I need to work on detaching." In my opinion, detachment isn't something that you actively seek, it's the end result of moving on with your life and working on improving yourself.

I think too many of us spin our wheels trying to actively detach when that energy is better spent on doing things that make us happy and help us build a new life (we call that GAL). Detachment is the end result of our personal growth, it's not a goal in and of itself.

I think most of us would probably benefit from forgetting about detachment and focus in fun and fulfillment. Detaching will take care of itself.

As usual, that's just my opinion; I could be wrong.

In some ways I agree. But I think it's more of a learned behavior than an end result. I think you can do a lot of fun and fulfillment, but then still be attached in many ways. I believe that the things you describe are essential parts of becoming detached, but I do think there is a little more to it.

There are little steps you can set for yourself to work on becoming more detached. For example, it might be difficult to say "I wont send my spouse a 'good morning' text ever again." But it's a lot easier to say I wont send one today. And as long as you can say that a few days in a row, after a couple of weeks, you wont have the urge to send one. Setting a goal like this, to me, is "working on becoming detached".

With that said, there needs to be something in your life to fill that void. You cant just empty your life and expect to be OK without filling it with something else. Thats where I think your fun and fulfillment comes in.

Just my opinions, though.
Posted By: Si_07 Re: This much I know is true - 06/28/16 06:11 AM
I agree with you doodler, feeling better about myself and doing things for me to meet new people, get out with friends etc, can give the freedom to realize you can be just fine on our own if necessary.

Learning about myself has also given me the light to see what I always felt was missing in my relationship. I always knew there were things missing but didn't understand why that effects so much other stuff. I needed the space to be able to do that, to really be able to focus on me without trying to fix someone else or the situation. Whether W does the same is an unknown position right now, doesn't mean I stop and wait for her to catch up.

I read something else by Coach one time and he said it's important to get ahead of them. They had a head start and, as you said, we spin our wheels trying to figure it out but we need to get moving for ourselves. Then I think the detachment comes naturally.
Posted By: BluWave Re: This much I know is true - 06/28/16 04:37 PM
Darknes, I am glad you are here. Your advice is sound and wise. I cannot help but wonder why you decided to post after all this time ...

-Blu
Posted By: collin Re: This much I know is true - 07/05/16 12:29 PM
Darknes is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma. He has given us all wise advice. I know when I first joined he really helped me out. Funny thing, I haven't been around these forums the past few weeks like I was when this all started and I can feel myself losing ground. He's like our own personal Silent Bob, he doesn't talk much, but when he does, it's impactful.

Why does it feel like we're eulogizing Darknes?
Posted By: KyleR Re: This much I know is true - 07/05/16 12:47 PM
Thought I'd jump in as I barely speak on other people's threads and think I need to start

I used to chase detachment and think it was something I could control but I couldn't be more wrong. The more I used to craze it the more frustrated I'd get by not achieving it.

It was only when I truly saw my WW actions and realised that I didn't want a relationship with the version of my W that I started to let go. I've just had my first really happy weekend since this all started and I'm looking forward to many more.

Don't know if this helps any.
Posted By: Vanilla Re: This much I know is true - 07/22/16 06:21 PM
Darknes

I like your posts and read your writings often.

There is a clarity of thought there.

Do you apply that to you?

V
Posted By: albac Re: This much I know is true - 07/22/16 07:25 PM
I don't post much but the last few posts relate a lot to what I have seen in the last 6 months when my W walked out.

I agree a lot with Doodler, I believe that detaching from something you care so much about is an almost impossible task and even if you think you are detaching it is more then likely an illusion that just makes you feel that way. This is just my opinion.

However in the last 3 days since my W told me she is seeing someone I feel absoloutely no desire to contact her in anyway. There is some anger but mostly I look at everything objectively and try not to let my heart take control of what I do. If my W can see someone else while we are still married and only separated 6 months, she doesn't love me and she doesn't value marriage the same way I do. These are simple facts but undeniable.

So for me now until she comes to me and says I made a huge mistake I was confused I really want to work on or marriage, (and this is probably less then a 1% chance) I am moving on with my own life without her. It does not mean I will be cold, or angry and vindictive it just means for now she made her choice and she is going to have to live with it just like I am.

Sorry for the ramble and I'm not trying to hi-jack just me spewing out the things I have been thinking.
Posted By: MoveFrwd Re: This much I know is true - 08/12/16 10:29 AM
As Ive mentioned before, I am divorced for some time and have a new partner. A couple weeks back, my new partner (who knows of this site and my activity here) asked me an interesting question:

"Do you use the strategies or tactics that you talk about on this site on me?"

My answer was like this.

Yes and no. The way I see the information from this site is that there are really two steps. For example, when you are digging a hole, first you need to stop digging, and then you can climb out. The methods on here related to stopping to dig (such as the 37 rules, going dark, acting as if, etc) arent really applicable in a good relationship. On the other hand, the items related to climbing out of the hole (goal setting, validating, listening, communicating, love languages, etc) are valid regardless of whether you are trying to maintain or repair a relationship. These are valuable life and relationship skills regardless of the relationship status. I said, Im working regularly to incorporate those into my life and our relationship regardless of my activity on this site.

So I thank you to all who have taught and continue to teach me many life lessons on how to be a part of a successful relationship.
Posted By: Cadet Re: This much I know is true - 08/12/16 11:44 AM
Originally Posted By: darknes
So I thank you to all who have taught and continue to teach me many life lessons on how to be a part of a successful relationship.

In order to save your marriage you must be able to have a good relationship and be able to build that from the ground up.
Learning about pursuit and distance, needs, love languages, detachment, boundaries, trust are all basic tools that you can learn here.

As long as both partners are ALL IN and trying to build their relationship, I see nothing wrong with what gets posted here.

LOVE is a CHOICE.

Thanks for posting darkness.
Posted By: BluWave Re: This much I know is true - 08/30/16 09:38 AM
I wanted to add my bit about detachment. Just thought of it, so feel free to edit or polish :-) I think of the "act" of detaching much like dieting, in that it is a conundrum, and the more you focus on it, the worse it will be.

When people go on a diet to lose weight, the focus becomes on eating less, which in turn causes them to think MORE about food choices. Well, the more you think about food, the more likely you are to eat or crave it! Well if you are craving food, and then deprive yourself of it, this perpetuates a negative cycle. So if you eat said food, you will feel guilty for breaking the diet and feel worse about yourself. Overall, you either lose weight with a feeling of deprivation or you eat more and thus feel like a failure.

IMHO a better approach to dieting is to incorporate healthier food choices and a healthier lifestyle in general. The more you can add things in that make you feel good about yourself and your image, the more confidence you gain. I think most people agree that confidence leads to success. So instead of dieting by deprivation, it is better to make a list of things you can have and do.

Here is a list (totally pulling this out of my bum right now):
1. Unlimited vegetables and fruits; get creative with new choices
2. Drink a big glass of water before and after every meal
3. Preplan all meals and prep for the work week
3. Try a new dance class or something more bold
4. Take a hike somewhere beautiful at least 3 times a week or even stroll the neighborhood if less time
5. Sleep 6 - 8 hours a night
6. Only go out to eat twice a week
7. Sunday is cheat day
8. Join a support group around weight loss with fun meetups
9. Take kids to park and climb structures with them
10. Start walking to errands instead of driving
11. Start checking that step-tracker on your phone (it's on there) and compete with your friends!

Ok, ok, you get the point. Doesn't this sound better than just restricting yourself of calories? And then feeling down on yourself when you eat?

So how is this THAT different than detachment?

I think you will all have more personal success and feel better if your focus is not on the act of detaching, but rather on things that are good for YOU and in your control. Over time, if you keep at it, you WILL have success.

-Blu
Posted By: SH_ Re: This much I know is true - 08/30/16 10:02 AM
Yes Blu, this is very well expressed and very good food for thought for the LBS community here.

The key, is that it is an action and a PMA that will prevail wen looking at it this way.
Posted By: SH_ Re: This much I know is true - 09/25/16 06:36 AM
^^^^^Bump^^^^^

Any new LBS can benefit from the info here for detachment.
Posted By: MoveFrwd Re: This much I know is true - 09/25/16 09:47 PM
Originally Posted By: BluWave
I wanted to add my bit about detachment. Just thought of it, so feel free to edit or polish :-) I think of the "act" of detaching much like dieting, in that it is a conundrum, and the more you focus on it, the worse it will be.

When people go on a diet to lose weight, the focus becomes on eating less, which in turn causes them to think MORE about food choices. Well, the more you think about food, the more likely you are to eat or crave it! Well if you are craving food, and then deprive yourself of it, this perpetuates a negative cycle. So if you eat said food, you will feel guilty for breaking the diet and feel worse about yourself. Overall, you either lose weight with a feeling of deprivation or you eat more and thus feel like a failure.

IMHO a better approach to dieting is to incorporate healthier food choices and a healthier lifestyle in general. The more you can add things in that make you feel good about yourself and your image, the more confidence you gain. I think most people agree that confidence leads to success. So instead of dieting by deprivation, it is better to make a list of things you can have and do.

Here is a list (totally pulling this out of my bum right now):
1. Unlimited vegetables and fruits; get creative with new choices
2. Drink a big glass of water before and after every meal
3. Preplan all meals and prep for the work week
3. Try a new dance class or something more bold
4. Take a hike somewhere beautiful at least 3 times a week or even stroll the neighborhood if less time
5. Sleep 6 - 8 hours a night
6. Only go out to eat twice a week
7. Sunday is cheat day
8. Join a support group around weight loss with fun meetups
9. Take kids to park and climb structures with them
10. Start walking to errands instead of driving
11. Start checking that step-tracker on your phone (it's on there) and compete with your friends!

Ok, ok, you get the point. Doesn't this sound better than just restricting yourself of calories? And then feeling down on yourself when you eat?

So how is this THAT different than detachment?

I think you will all have more personal success and feel better if your focus is not on the act of detaching, but rather on things that are good for YOU and in your control. Over time, if you keep at it, you WILL have success.

-Blu



I agree.

There's two different things - the PROCESS and the RESULT.

In the long term, the process is a lot more meaningful than the result. Sometimes, you'll have a good process and get a bad result. It happens. That's like going all in on aces and losing to 5s because two 5s showed up on the flop. You can't control that. But if you go with the right process, over time, it will yield successful results more often than not.

So the focus should be on the steps to achieve detachment...not on the detachment itself.
Posted By: MoveFrwd Re: This much I know is true - 10/25/16 07:57 AM
My partner asked me the other day if I was tainted by the betrayal and loss from my first marriage. I was asked whether my views on love and relationships were "damaged" in some way by the way my marriage ended.

I thought it was a very interesting question and it took me a while to be able to find words that could even approach an explanation of my feelings.

My thoughts are like this:
- in my previous marriage, I didnt really understand how love works. I didnt understand that every day, both my ex and I had the choice when we woke up of whether or not to be in love. Every day, I woke up, I was making a personal choice to be "in love" with that person I was sleeping next to. Wht I didnt realize was that my ex was making the same choice every day. And so I took that love for granted. As a given.

- By doing that, I learned bad habits. Lots of them. I equated it to getting an A without studying. If I take 7 tests and get A's without studying, whats my incentive to study for the 8th test? So, I stopped studying in my previous relationship. I stopped working on being a good partner, and as a result, my ex woke up one morning and didnt chose not to love me anymore.

- So, I said that my view on love isnt tainted. Im not any less "in" this relationship than I was in the other one. But Ive "learned my lesson" about what can happen when you take another persons' love for granted. Ive learned how relationships can fail. Ive become smarter in how I love.

So, no, I dont think that my abilities to trust or to love are broken or tainted. I choose instead to believe that they are enhanced in that I can administer those gifts onto someone else in a way that is healthy and sustainable.
Posted By: BluWave Re: This much I know is true - 10/25/16 09:43 AM
(((darknes))) That was awesome to read. It makes perfect sense. Thank you for sharing.

Blu
Posted By: Cadet Re: This much I know is true - 10/25/16 09:57 AM
Originally Posted By: darknes
My partner asked me the other day if I was tainted by the betrayal and loss from my first marriage. I was asked whether my views on love and relationships were "damaged" in some way by the way my marriage ended.

I thought it was a very interesting question and it took me a while to be able to find words that could even approach an explanation of my feelings.

My thoughts are like this:
- in my previous marriage, I didnt really understand how love works. I didnt understand that every day, both my ex and I had the choice when we woke up of whether or not to be in love. Every day, I woke up, I was making a personal choice to be "in love" with that person I was sleeping next to. Wht I didnt realize was that my ex was making the same choice every day. And so I took that love for granted. As a given.

- By doing that, I learned bad habits. Lots of them. I equated it to getting an A without studying. If I take 7 tests and get A's without studying, whats my incentive to study for the 8th test? So, I stopped studying in my previous relationship. I stopped working on being a good partner, and as a result, my ex woke up one morning and didnt chose not to love me anymore.

- So, I said that my view on love isnt tainted. Im not any less "in" this relationship than I was in the other one. But Ive "learned my lesson" about what can happen when you take another persons' love for granted. Ive learned how relationships can fail. Ive become smarter in how I love.

So, no, I dont think that my abilities to trust or to love are broken or tainted. I choose instead to believe that they are enhanced in that I can administer those gifts onto someone else in a way that is healthy and sustainable.


Another words my favorite saying

LOVE is a CHOICE.

Great Post.
Posted By: MoveFrwd Re: This much I know is true - 11/08/16 10:43 AM
There was a facebook post by a guy named Billy Flynn a few weeks back that went viral across the internet. My partner asked me my opinion of it.

As background, this is the gist of the post:
This guy (maybe mid 30s?) has two young sons and has been divorced for a short time. I dont know all of the details of the breakup or their relationship; those werent posted. Anyway, he posted that he had gotten up early for his XW's birthday to take his boys to bring flowers and a gift and prepare breakfast for her in her house. When questioned, he replied that he was raising two men and he wants to set a good example for them in how they relate with women in the future.

My partner's opinion is that this is an incredibly thoughtful gesture. That these actions should be celebrated as model for how to teach young men to treat the women in their lives.

I said that I couldnt disagree with this more. In my opinion, the proper way to treat the mother of these children would have been to stay married to her. In my opinion, there are three scenarios:

1) She pushed for the divorce - in this case I feel that he is using his kids as a way to remain in her life. He's being a doormat and a pursuer and those arent traits he should be teaching his boys.

2) He pushed for the divorce - in this case, I feel bad for this woman. He wanted to be away from her so badly that he divorced her and yet he wont actually leave her alone. From the tone of his post, it doesnt sound like this is the case though.

3) They 'mutually' decided to divorce. I hate this the most. If they still have a relationship where she feels comfortable with him coming in to her home and cooking breakfast, then they never should have gotten divorced in the first place. Its an incredibly selfish act and teaches the children all the wrong things about relationships.

Overall, I felt it was a horrible message to send. In my opinion, there should be no such thing as an 'amicable' divorce when kids are involved. If there is enough good feelings to divorce amicably, then the people should be putting the effort in to repair the marriage. Its so frustrating to me how easy it is to get married and to get divorced and stories like this help reinforce that divorce is 'easy' and 'friendly' and 'good for everyone'. I found it disgusting.

Wonder if anyone else saw this and had any reaction to it?
Posted By: JRuss Re: This much I know is true - 11/08/16 12:05 PM
There are a couple other scenarios that could make it ok (e.g., XW woke up late to the true nature of her sexuality but is otherwise totally amicable with XH, and he's accepted it), but generally speaking I'm exactly in your camp, darknes.

(Sometimes I think these are just made up things written by people who want to be able to say they penned something that "went viral", but if it is real, I'd bet real money it's your No. 1 at work).
Posted By: JujuB Re: This much I know is true - 11/08/16 08:09 PM
Agreed completely. Idea of amicable divorce when there are young children
involved disturbs me as well.

Why even get married in the first place?
Posted By: J5K Re: This much I know is true - 11/09/16 02:48 AM
IDK,

When I viewed MWD's LRT videos, it said do family things. It also said do not pursue. I do not see this action as pursuing. I see this man's action as teaching his sons how to respect someone. Whether it goes against how he feels about his xW or not, it is a positive action for the boys. The boys are too young to understand the bad behavior of the xW and it really is not something they should have to deal with.

I have heard of some of my friends who have tried this same thing and the xW did not even open the gift from their children because they thought it was pursuit. This caused more emotional damage to the child. There is a risk to doing something like this.

For me, I have too much bitterness at this point to take an action like this, but I am not sure I would do it on a yearly basis.
Posted By: bigybiz Re: This much I know is true - 11/10/16 12:02 PM
There is no such thing as an amicable divorce, aside from the sexual orientation issue and violence. No marriage should end - children or not.

There are couples who have survived, multiple affairs, prison, addiction, illness, etc.

Anything else is quitting.
Posted By: BluWave Re: This much I know is true - 11/12/16 12:07 AM
Originally Posted By: darknes


In my opinion, there should be no such thing as an 'amicable' divorce when kids are involved. If there is enough good feelings to divorce amicably, then the people should be putting the effort in to repair the marriage. Its so frustrating to me how easy it is to get married and to get divorced and stories like this help reinforce that divorce is 'easy' and 'friendly' and 'good for everyone'. I found it disgusting.

Wonder if anyone else saw this and had any reaction to it?


This has me thinking a lot. I used to feel this way, however I no longer do. I have realized now that my agreement with this was largely in part due to my inability to detach from H. It was my strongest, and most convincing, argument for why we should work on the M. For why he should end his A and come back to me. We owe it to the children to at least try. "This is what we should do" actually translated to what I desperately thought I needed.

While in theory we all should work on the M for the sake of our vows and our children--and yes the work can be done, and yes love is a choice--I am still not sure you can ever "should" anything in relationships. There are no shoulds in love. And I want my relationships to be about love and not about obligation. While children are better off in families that are together, I think it can be as damaging to grow up and see parents living out of obligation to them, because it breeds resentment.

People are human and we are all imperfect. And, we all have different ideas about what we expect in our M and from our spouse. I don't think it's realistic that everyone should stick by each other because it is the right thing to do. Some of us need to let go and find something else in life. Many of us are here because our S left us for something or someone else. So we still can't quite let go.

So while the various explanations are unfortunate, and in an ideal world, "should" not happen, how is not being amicable a solution? We can all chose our M, we can all chose love, and I agree with that. However, we cannot force someone else to chose us or love us, but we can still be amicable with them.

Breakfast and flowers sounds a bit like pursuing. Being amicable for the sake of the children, I think that is hard, but necssary. If you are saying that there is "no such thing as an amicable divorce," my thoughts are that you still have some work to do on detachment.

Darknes, is it possible you have not entirely let go of your W? Or perhaps you are still holding on it the idea of her?

Blu
Posted By: Cadet Re: This much I know is true - 11/12/16 02:10 AM
Originally Posted By: darknes
In my opinion, there should be no such thing as an 'amicable' divorce when kids are involved.

I did not have an amicable divorce.

I fought it tooth and nail.
In retrospect I saw that it was a form of pursuit for me
and likely pushed her further away,
although that would likely have happened either way.

I am now coming up on 5 years post divorce.
This past summer my son got married and both my kids had
graduations for post graduate degrees.

Me and the ex tolerated each other,
probably for the sake of the kids,
now we are back to no contact.

I am not sure that this is better or worse.

I am finally healing and moving forward with my life.
My kids will be stuck between parents for ever.
That does not go away.
My father is now divorced for 25 years,
although he has now passed away I am still stuck
with those consequences.

I guess all we can do is keep making the best choices
with the cards we are dealt.
Stand or Fold.

Neither one might be right or wrong.
Posted By: bigybiz Re: This much I know is true - 11/13/16 03:13 PM
At today's Church service the pastor spoke about doing what is right and not just what we can get away with.

That to me is the crux of the issue. My W thinks that she can be herself finally and (I'm mind reading here) will be a better mother once she can be herself.

So should she stay in her MR because she should or because it's right.

I don't want her due to obligation - I want her because I made a promise to her (and she me) to be married till death...

So Blu - where is the line between Right and Should?
Posted By: BluWave Re: This much I know is true - 11/14/16 08:30 AM
I wrote that late at night, so please excuse the "chose" instead of "choose," sheesh. Smh.

Cadet, thank you for sharing. You bring up some great points. I am not sure there is any right or wrong answer to this either. Everyone has to move forward in a way that works for them. I think most Ds are not amicable but I can't believe that there is no such thing. Some people do make the choice to remain amicable and pleasant for the sake of the kids alone and I think that's a respectable choice. Others don't or can't, and that is okay too. There are ways we can still love and support our kids through this.

My parents got D when I was 5 and it was not amicable for many years. It was difficult and there were a lot of hard feelings. My brother and I were shuffled back and forth, the resentment was palpable, and it made for a lonely childhood. I think the part that was hardest, was not the D alone, but they didn't address our needs and feelings. My mother remarried and my dad never did. When my brother and I reached adulthood, things slowly changed. My mom realized that she wanted to see her family on every holiday and special occasion, and that by including my dad this could be possible. So after 15 yrs of D, it changed. And somehow it worked. As the years went by, they became more and more pleasant and almost had a friendship. So when we reached adulthood, we saw our parents at every holiday and the grandchildren (our kids) were able to see them all more often as well.

As hard as it was in my early childhood, I can see that their M would have not worked out even if my mom stuck around. They were such different people and had very different expectations of M and gender roles. Her and my step-father set an example of love and mutual respect, and they were a better match. So while none of this was ideal, it worked out okay in the end. I do think my father was always lonely, but I don't think it's fair to blame my mom for that.

So I would never suggest that all Ds should be amicable or that people should go against their feelings to make that happen. I don't believe there is no such thing tho.

Blu
Posted By: BluWave Re: This much I know is true - 11/14/16 08:53 AM
bigybiz, that's a good question. I don't know the answer. I think I am using right and should interchangeably. We all should work on our M and it is the right thing to do--we made a promise--and especially if we have children, then they deserve a family that is together. But people do change. Circumstances happen. We learn more about one another as we go through life. Some of these things do lead to an incompatibility. If my mom and dad stayed together, I honestly don't think it would have ever worked. As hard as it was for me growing up, I can see that them being together would have been damaging as well. My mom wasn't happy with him and they were different.

In my own M, I don't feel that way. My H and I are very compatible. We do care for each other, we have similar interests and values, and our children are doing much better with us being together. My personal issue is that I still have not fully forgiven him. I don't know that I ever will. He broke our vows, hurt me and the kids, and essentially gave up on our M for over a year. It would be the right thing for me to stay and continue to work on it. I will do that because I want to.

However if time goes by and something changes or my feelings change, I will not feel obligated to stay. I did not marry someone I thought could ever be unfaithful. At that point I imagine things will be amicable because we have been talking about this for some time now. He knew coming back they things were different.

Perhaps we all define these things differently--right, should, amicable--and so I dont think there are any wrong or right answers. We are all different and have to do the best we can.

Blu
Posted By: doodler Re: This much I know is true - 11/14/16 10:22 AM
Originally Posted By: bigybiz
I don't want her due to obligation - I want her because I made a promise to her (and she me) to be married till death...


bigybiz,

When I read your sentence, it seems like you're saying you don't want your wife if she feels like it's an obligation, but you want her because she made a promise (an obligation) to be married until death. So, to rewrite your sentence, this is what I read, "I don't want her due to obligation, I want her because she's obligated."

I assume what you really want is for her to love you enough that she'd want to stay with you regardless of any obligation.
Posted By: doodler Re: This much I know is true - 11/14/16 10:43 AM
Originally Posted By: darknes
In my opinion, there should be no such thing as an 'amicable' divorce when kids are involved.



darknes,

I didn't want to divorce, but I felt like, given the circumstances, that I had a fairly amicable divorce. Imagine my surprise when I took my sons to their first post-divorce counseling session and my xW described the separation and divorce as being "very nasty."

Our perceptions were completely different. By the time my wife had moved out, I'd become a hammer, and I immediately pounded down any nails that popped-up. I felt fine; I had zero tolerance for the WW spew. Apparently (mind reading), she felt beaten-down.

The point is that whether or not the divorce is amicable is in the eye of the beholder. I fought a good fight to keep my family together, and I lost, but when all was said and done, I could hold my head high and honestly say that I was her faithful husband until the end. But, I thought things were relatively sedate (they were). However, my ex-wife, who was determined to split-up the family, viewed the divorce as contentious. Maybe it was her conscience gnawing at her the entire time; I don't know.

So, in my opinion, an amicable divorce is probably not the best litmus test as to whether there was a heroic fight for the family.
Posted By: MoveFrwd Re: This much I know is true - 11/14/16 11:25 AM
Maybe I think amicable is the wrong word for it. My ex and I went through the divorce and things were fairly tense for a while, but now I would say that while we are certainly not friends, the spirit is generally friend-ly. During the drop offs or at a school event, if we see each other, I wouldnt say things are especially cold or hostile, but I think each of us are glad when the encounter is over and we can move on to the next part of the day.

That said, in no way, shape or form would I feel comfortable going to that person's house to make them a 'birthday breakfast' as a way of raising my children to do what is right.





As for the recent discussion in my thread, did I want my ex to stay with me out of 'obligation'? It's a difficult question to answer.

One the one hand, going through the initial ILYBNILWY phase, I didnt realize just how much I had contaminated my marriage - it wasnt until I had the perspective and time to objectively look at my role in the breakdown to really understand the things that I did that were considered hurtful. Like almost everyone on here, I think with a little time and effort, that relationship would have prospered into something better than the original marriage at the best times.

With that said, if I had known that it was my 'last chance' Im sure that things would have reverted and the initial changes I had made would have faded away.

In some ways, the LACK of obligation is what spurred me to make changes that I believe will last.
Posted By: doodler Re: This much I know is true - 11/14/16 11:51 AM
Originally Posted By: darknes
That said, in no way, shape or form would I feel comfortable going to that person's house to make them a 'birthday breakfast' as a way of raising my children to do what is right.


darknes,

I feel the same way. In fact, if I'm going to have a relationship with someone else, I don't want a close relationship with my xW because that would only invite trouble.
Posted By: J5K Re: This much I know is true - 11/14/16 02:44 PM
Blue,

You always have some very insightful posts and continue to inspire me and keep me hopeful, even a little. I think many of the LBS's are just very frustrated and disappointed that the other half runs away from our sitches.

Amicable is a relative term based on each person's sitch.

If our S's were strong enough, the right thing to do would be to come back and work on the M.
Posted By: bigybiz Re: This much I know is true - 11/14/16 04:32 PM
Doodler:

I guess I see it a little differently. I see an obligation as a contract. I'm obligated to make the min payment on my credit card until the balance is 0. Then the obligation is over.

I made a promise to my wife and children (in front of God at our wedding, baptisms, etc) that I will always be there for them no matter what happens. To add to that - there is no score keeping/declining balance and that promise ends the day I die.

So currently W see's our promise to each other differently than I do.
Posted By: MoveFrwd Re: This much I know is true - 11/21/16 08:51 AM
My partner had asked me a while ago whether I believed in soul mates. My partner had told me that after going on probably hundreds of dates that there was no chance that I wasnt 'the one'.

My mind works a little differently. I dont believe that there is 'one' person out there for any of us. The odds of meeting that one person and being able to take advantage of that meeting are so infinitesimally low that I just cant believe everyone on Earth is settling.

In my mind, let's look at just America. From my rough calculations, there are over 42 million members of the opposite sex within 10 years of my age. If we plotted the compability of these people with me, I would expect a fairly normal distribution (like a bell curve). If I set "loosely compatible" as the middle, that will mean that Im incompatible with 50% of the population. But it also means that the 0.3% that Im extremely compatible with (>3 sigma above the mean) accounts for over 60,000 people. While some are married or in relationships, there are still a tremendous number of number that Id be an extremely good match for.

My point isnt to minimize my or anyone's relationship. I guess I just am saying that I cant live my life thinking that there is only 1 person out there for me. Im not willing to accept a lower standard, but if someone 'crosses that bar' for me, Im not going to reject it to keep searching for an elusive 'one'.
Posted By: BluWave Re: This much I know is true - 11/21/16 10:43 AM
Darknes, did you show your partner your statistical analysis of compatibility? You might want to not do that okay? Lol. Perhaps also take some lessons in romance from DDJ? Oh wait, she already thinks you are the one, so nevermind. :-) haha.

Sorry, I couldn't resist. I do agree with you tho. I also miss being in my 20s when I thought my H was the only one. It was much more fun that way!

Thank you JimK for the complements, I'm gonna check out your threads today.

Doodler, I've still got your number ... Although I wonder where our compatibility level falls on Darknes' scale....

Blu
Posted By: MoveFrwd Re: This much I know is true - 11/21/16 10:46 AM
Originally Posted By: BluWave
Darknes, did you show your partner your statistical analysis of compatibility?


Hahahaha.

Of course not in so much detail.

But I did say that while I dont really believe in 'the one', I have no interest in continuing to look to see if someone might be MORE compatible. Im happy and excited by what we have and have no interest in pursuing anything else.
Posted By: BluWave Re: This much I know is true - 11/21/16 02:48 PM
That is great. I am happy for you guys. It appears that you truly understand the fundemental principles of DB and have personally grown from them. I think ultimately that is the main goal for all of us, whether we reconcile our M or not.

Blu
Posted By: MoveFrwd Re: This much I know is true - 12/19/16 08:29 AM
As I was browsing through the facebooks today, I came upon a posting that made me very sad. You see, back when I was married, my couple friends, my ex and I used to gather regularly for all sorts of parties or get-togethers usually as a group of 6 or 8. As I posted to AndrewP, this set of friends abandoned me almost immediately after the separation. It was as if they thought that the divorce was contagious, I guess. To be fair, they were introduced to me originally as my ex's friends, so I wouldnt expect them to be 'mine' after the divorce.

Anyway, there was a weekend getaway that these couples did for 4th of July and there were images all over social media that hit me pretty hard. There is another set going on now after this past weekend's festivities in preparation for Christmas. It hurts that I feel like I did nothing wrong to these people, but yet, Im still pushed to the outside looking in. Its just a reminder that I didnt just lose a spouse, I had a complete life overhaul where what I have left from that old life is my family and a few friends.

Im not sure theres much point to this posting, other than just to vent a little bit about being sad. But sometimes just typing things like this out help.
Posted By: doodler Re: This much I know is true - 12/19/16 08:48 AM
darknes,

I'm sorry you're feeling sad. I've had similar things happen, and I don't think I was excluded because I was divorced, I think I was excluded because I'm no longer married. If you understand the distinction. Everyone else in the group is there as a couple and they're not sure what to do with a single guy mingling in coupledom.

I could be totally wrong, but that explanation soothes the soul to some extent.
Posted By: Dawgs Re: This much I know is true - 12/19/16 08:54 AM
Quote:
To be fair, they were introduced to me originally as my ex's friends, so I wouldnt expect them to be 'mine' after the divorce.


There is your answer. Since they were the ex's friends first, the loyalties will lie there.
Posted By: MoveFrwd Re: This much I know is true - 12/19/16 09:12 AM
Originally Posted By: Jeep74
Quote:
To be fair, they were introduced to me originally as my ex's friends, so I wouldnt expect them to be 'mine' after the divorce.


There is your answer. Since they were the ex's friends first, the loyalties will lie there.


Maybe I wasnt as clear in my initial post as I should have been. These couples arent friends with my ex either anymore. In fact, during our separation, my ex blocked several of these people on FB because it was believed that were 'on my side'. From what I can tell from very limited facebook observation, there has been no effort made to mend those bridges.
Posted By: AndrewP Re: This much I know is true - 12/19/16 09:44 AM
Originally Posted By: darknes
As I was browsing through the facebooks today, I came upon a posting that made me very sad. You see, back when I was married, my couple friends, my ex and I used to gather regularly for all sorts of parties or get-togethers usually as a group of 6 or 8. As I posted to AndrewP, this set of friends abandoned me almost immediately after the separation. It was as if they thought that the divorce was contagious, I guess. To be fair, they were introduced to me originally as my ex's friends, so I wouldnt expect them to be 'mine' after the divorce.

Anyway, there was a weekend getaway that these couples did for 4th of July and there were images all over social media that hit me pretty hard. There is another set going on now after this past weekend's festivities in preparation for Christmas. It hurts that I feel like I did nothing wrong to these people, but yet, Im still pushed to the outside looking in. Its just a reminder that I didnt just lose a spouse, I had a complete life overhaul where what I have left from that old life is my family and a few friends.

Im not sure theres much point to this posting, other than just to vent a little bit about being sad. But sometimes just typing things like this out help.
darknes - my old sparring partner - this is a tough time for us all. I'm glad that you felt confident posting this here among friends.

I've been blessed in the fact that many kind people have reached out to me and become friends after W departed. Social media played a big role in that for me. I had reached out to people I liked but didn't know well in a friendly way. Many of these were people who were just acquaintances of W - not close friends. I just got a very nice message from one a few moments ago about something I was helping her with. On Saturday one came by with a tray of Christmas cookies and a big smile for me.

Seeing the joy we once had and that now is lost forever does make things sad indeed. Time travel alas only works in one direction. I often think about how much of my history that I will purge if W indeed never comes home. For now from time to time I look back and remember the joy with yes, a twinge of sadness but still also feel the joy of those good memories.

It feels weird for me to be the one telling you this and perhaps my 2X4 is more a wiffle-bat compared to your's but this is where you need to make your own joy and your own memories and not just with your new partner.

If we don't correspond before and even if we do - have a very Merry Christmas my friend.
Posted By: dream Re: This much I know is true - 12/22/16 10:26 AM
hugs to you darknes. I also lost friends because of the fallout of my previous marriage. But, I've also made some new friends that I never would have had if things hadn't gone the way they did. smile
Posted By: BluWave Re: This much I know is true - 12/26/16 06:57 AM
darknes, I hope the holidays are finding you well.

I've been thinking about what you posted and wondering what prevents you from reaching out to these friends? Perhaps they miss you as well. Sometimes we don't know if we don't ask. Even just a coffee and a hello can be nice.

While I think all of our relationships died (associated with the M) with the death of our M, perhaps some of those can be reconciled too. Just as the M will be something new and different with piecing, I think the friendships can be refined too. Maybe creating some new and postive memories will decrease the sting of missing the old ones.

Blu
Posted By: MoveFrwd Re: This much I know is true - 01/10/17 02:29 PM
Originally Posted By: BluWave
I've been thinking about what you posted and wondering what prevents you from reaching out to these friends?


This is an interesting question and one Ive been kicking around for a while. Originally, I felt like I reached out a couple times, and was met with essentially a blank stare. But, honestly...theyve pretty much all moved away at this point, so Im not sure a casual gathering is really in the cards. I occasionally like their FB posts and sometimes tag them in some of mine. But on the whole, I will need to consider if a next step is really worth it on my end.
Posted By: MoveFrwd Re: This much I know is true - 01/10/17 02:36 PM
So the other day, I watched the movie BAD MOMS, and I got incredibly angry about parts of the plot line.

Look. I get it. It's intended to be a satiric movie showing the struggles of parenthood, young marriage, etc. I know it's a comedy. I know it isnt intended to be taken seriously.

That said, there is a scene where the husband and wife go to couples counseling. By this time, the H had a PA and I think the W did too (though the extent isnt clear in the movie). In any case, the therapy session goes with both the H and W saying "I dont love you anymore" and the therapist says "I think all marriages are sacred, but you two need to get a divorce."

It's frustrating to me that this kind of thing is intended to be humorous. After 3 minutes in a therapy session, this person is suggesting that these two need to get divorced ASAP based on essentially nothing.

Maybe Im just tired of movies (especially COMEDIES) where people are having affairs for no reason - like The Intern. These arent things where people just heal immediately and all is well. To see it being taken so lightheartedly in mainstream cinema is frustrating and sad. While intended to be funny, it sends the message that divorce is easy and no big deal. In reality, it's an incredibly traumatic experience that takes more than a kiss from the cute guy to recover from.

/rant over
Posted By: Sotto Re: This much I know is true - 01/11/17 12:22 AM
I hear you Darknes! I also get frustrated by the depiction of relationships in movies, on TV and in books etc...

Really it starts from childhood - princes, happily ever after...and carries on through life. This experience has changed what I choose to watch. For example, I hate to see dramatisation and romanticising of extra marital affairs - ugh...

Xx
Posted By: MoveFrwd Re: This much I know is true - 03/06/17 06:38 AM
Ive watched all of How I met Your Mother, and I was thinking today about one of the topics that my ex and I used to casually joke about. In the show, they talk about every relationship having a "Reacher" and a "Settler". The basic premise is that one person has found someone 'better' than they are and have 'reached' while the other person has found someone 'worse' but doesnt feel like continuing to search and has 'settled'.

I used to joke with my ex that it was clear I was settling due to certain characteristics, but it was a joke, as we both knew that I was clearly 'reaching'. My ex was very attractive, incredibly smart, funny, kind, etc, etc. Meanwhile, Ive always been shy, quiet, awkward, etc, etc. While Im sure it wasnt the show's fault that we broke up, thinking back on this concept, and this dynamic, I feel that by embodying this dichotomy, it led us to feel certain ways.

Feeling like I was reaching, I never felt comfortable in the relationship. I regularly felt unequal and felt like I had to compete to earn the love from my ex. I also remember thinking often that my ex might leave and could do better.

The problem is, that didnt drive ME to do better. Instead, it made me feel like I should hold more tightly, in order to keep that person at my 'level'. I frequently made jokes at the expense of my ex in group settings. I was terrible about celebrating personal and professional accomplishments. I was not good at offering words of affirmation.

Of course, it wont matter much for that relationship now, but it was enlightening to me to think back on that.
Posted By: Dawgs Re: This much I know is true - 03/06/17 06:54 AM
Quote:
watched the movie BAD MOMS, and I got incredibly angry about parts of the plot line.


I agree. It seems to just drive the nail deeper into the coffin of society's mind. I wouldn't be all-to surprised if in the not to distant future that marriage would be looked down upon and almost done away with...
Posted By: BluWave Re: This much I know is true - 03/06/17 03:09 PM
"My ex was very attractive, incredibly smart, funny, kind, etc, etc. Meanwhile, Ive always been shy, quiet, awkward, etc, etc."

"Feeling like I was reaching, I never felt comfortable in the relationship. I regularly felt unequal and felt like I had to compete to earn the love from my ex."

"The problem is, that didnt drive ME to do better. Instead, it made me feel like I should hold more tightly, in order to keep that person at my 'level'."

K, when I read your post, I see self blame. You also seem to have her on a pedestal. Perhaps she wasn't as kind and wonderful as you describe? Perhaps it was also HER keeping you at arms length? I think these dynamics have go in both directions because there are 2 people in any R.

It sounds to me as if she may have been the insecure one--whatever her part was in you feeling beneath her and ultimately she had an A and ran from the M--because if people have inner happiness and confidence, then they want the same thing for their partner.

Blu
Posted By: MoveFrwd Re: This much I know is true - 03/10/17 06:44 AM
Originally Posted By: BluWave
You also seem to have her on a pedestal.

Blu - you are right. I certainly did. Now, I can see all of the things that you described. I was mostly detailing how I felt during our relationship. I know better than go back down that road.

Thanks for continuing to keep me honest!
Posted By: BluWave Re: This much I know is true - 03/12/17 12:43 PM
Well, to be honest myself, I am not just trying to keep you honest. I have my own feelings and reasons surrounding your sitch. I doubt I'll ever know for sure tho.

You certainly are an asset to this board. I enjoy your posts, questions, and how you get others to think deeper.

Blu
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: This much I know is true - 03/12/17 02:49 PM
Originally Posted By: Coconut
- Think long and hard before outing A... In my case, I immediately posted text messages between OM and WW on my and WW Facebook pages. I was angry and wanted revenge. It took me about 3 minutes to realize that it was a bad idea and told my WW so she could delete the post.


FWIW, I cannot imagine a scenario in which outing the A would help the LBSer.

1) It rarely helps to create a reconciliation or at least one that lasts, b/c shame was the tool forming the basis of the recon. Spouses are not shamed into staying in a marriage, for long.

And 2) only a few states allow adultery as grounds for D, but even when it's grounds for D, it does not affect property settlement and it's not needed for CS issues.

(I'm not talking about protecting our children from a WAS who open ML in front of the kids, or exposes them to too much intimate "turmoil" with OPs.). BTW, Outing the affair is generally not part of MWD's approach.

This is not to say we should ever cover or lie for our spouse to have an affair.

Let me emphasize that for clarity. I am not supporting that any LBSer covers for her spouse's affair(s). Or enable them.



Had I not done that, I truly believe my current reconciliation would not be happening.

I totally agree.

If you want to out the AP to their spouse, is that gonna free up both AP's to be with each other? I only told one person, and that was only so that I had someone to talk to, which I needed. But I assured their secrecy before telling.


YES it tends to push them into each others' arms. And I think we have to tell someone, so we don't explode. "Losing our $hit" is not helping anyone.

When outing the A pushes the WAS into the arms of the AP, they can be "right" about the affair- and not cave into the shame that is usually the aim of the outing. Maybe not consciously, but hey, I really do understand the urge to lash out. The sense of betrayal would be literally sickening.

You are wise to note the risk. I think there are many short lived 2nd m's that were the result of feeling so embarrassed and publicly humiliated by the exposure of their affair, that the WAS felt their only choice was to marry the AP. To prove that they were not bad people to cheat, but b/c they "really loved/needed" the AP.

I know 2 who admitted that they felt cornered into marrying the Affair Partners. Strange, when you contemplate it.


Stand your ground with boundaries -
Letting WS knowing what is and what is not ok with you is critical. My sitch turned the corner when I clearly stated what I was not ok with and what the consequences would be, it was the first time that my WW reacted to anything I said.



I think this^^ is part of all healthy piecing. Probably all healthy r's when you think about it.
Posted By: MoveFrwd Re: This much I know is true - 01/18/18 09:09 AM
Im coming up on three years since BD, and I was thinking last night about some of the things Ive learned over the course of this journey. In some ways, it feels like only yesterday and in others, it feels like a lifetime ago.

I changed my user name this morning. My last name, Kaizen, was a Japanese word that means 'continual improvement'. I like that term as it's a reminder not to 'get complacent'. That if you stay where you are, you are really moving backwards. It was a helpful reminder to me to continue moving forward, to continue becoming the person I want to be. The new name is an acronym for "A man only a fool would leave." Im by no means suggesting that the path of continual improvement is finished. Instead, I want to remind myself of the journey Ive taken and the progress Ive made. Its about remembering the positives while also continuing to grow. I know it will be a pain in the butt for people to quote and remember, but for me, it's a healthy reminder.

Some of the thoughts I had last night about where I was and where I am now.....

One place where I feel like Ive really grown is in what I think Sandi calls 'acting like a man'. Looking back, I can see many ways in which I acted so very beta. Im not suggesting that every situation calls for hitting things with sticks or yelling, but rather that I have confidence in making decisions for myself and/or the family, that I am willing to try new things, that I can be a provider and a caretaker and so on. I remember needing my parents help to even do a moderately simple task like hanging a picture on the wall. I think it was fear of disappointing my ex or of the failure that I would feel in case there was an issue, but Ive learned that I AM capable of doing things even if there are mistakes along the way.

Another area is acting more like an equal part of a relationship. I remember my ex had many extracurricular night time activities related to her job. And on top of those, she would have other lunch or afternoon outings. Meanwhile, I never went out because either I was watching the kid(s) or when she was home, I would want to spend time with her. My life centered around the family and the home completely, and I totally lost my identity in that. Ive come to learn the value of doing things by and for myself and also in encouraging my new partner to do things by and for HERself. I remember when my ex would go out constantly watching the clock and waiting for her to come home like a sad puppy. I can see now how that isnt attractive at all on a regular basis.

I can also see how bad I was at listening. I would have a conversation with my ex about whatever was bothering and spend the whole time trying to help her that I wasnt really being of any use to her. I am sure that what she wanted was for me to listen and help her with her own thoughts vs trying to show that I could solve her problems for her. Rather than asking questions to help her decide the best actions, I think I subconsciously wanted to prove that I could do things better than she could. Ive learned a lot about validation and about listening actively.

Im sure theres more, but those were my thoughts yesterday. I was feeling proud of my progress towards becoming AMOAFWL, so I wanted to share some thoughts.
Posted By: MoveFrwd Re: This much I know is true - 02/19/18 01:35 AM
Didnt realize/remember I had threads in multiple forums. Meant to post this one here!

Watched "The Last Five Years" last night. A musical of young love found and then lost. It opened with this song that I found to be touching and reminded me strongly of where Ive been.

Still Hurting
Jamie is over and Jamie is gone
Jamie's decided it's time to move on
Jamie has new dreams he's building upon
And I'm still hurting

Jamie arrived at the end of the line
Jamie's convinced that the problems are mine
Jamie is probably feeling just fine
And I'm still hurting

What about lies, Jamie?
What about things
That you swore to be true
What about you, Jamie
What about you

Jamie is sure something wonderful died
Jamie decides it's his right to decide
Jamie's got secrets he doesn't confide
And I'm still hurting

Go and hide and run away
Run away, run and find something better
Go and ride the sun away
Run away like it's simple
Like it's right...

Give me a day, Jamie
Bring back the lies
Hang them back on the wall
Maybe I'd see
How you could be
So certain that we
Had no chance at all

Jamie is over and where can I turn?
Covered with scars I did nothing to earn
Maybe there's somewhere a lesson to learn
But that wouldn't change the fact
That wouldn't speed the time
Once the foundation's cracked
And I'm
Still hurting
Posted By: EastTN Re: This much I know is true - 02/19/18 03:34 PM
Thanks for that. And thanks for everything you do here.
Posted By: DblDown Re: This much I know is true - 02/20/18 04:38 AM
Originally Posted By: Amoafwl
Another area is acting more like an equal part of a relationship. I remember my ex had many extracurricular night time activities related to her job. And on top of those, she would have other lunch or afternoon outings. Meanwhile, I never went out because either I was watching the kid(s) or when she was home, I would want to spend time with her. My life centered around the family and the home completely, and I totally lost my identity in that.

This struck a chord with me, as it's how I used to act before BD. Like you, I realised this wasn't attractive in anyway. In some strange way, I'm thankful for the situation I'm in as it's allowed me to think about the person I want to become.
Posted By: MoveFrwd Re: This much I know is true - 01/15/19 04:02 PM
Well, I feel like it's time to give an update to my sitch. Im not sure what Ive shared where, but here are the basics.

3/2015 I got the BD/ILYBNILWY speech after 10 years of marriage. We separated in 4/2015 and divorced officially in 11/2015. I have two kids in elementary school. I came here around the time we separated and tried to do the best I could with respect of DB. Unfortunately, my ex wife found herself here and was a "step ahead' the whole time. Had things played out differently, maybe some of these techniques would have worked, but she felt manipulated, tricked, and hurt by the information here. In any case, she married OM in 2016.

In November, 2015, I made a difficult decision to begin dating again. I was not really looking for anything serious and kind of was just dabbling with meeting people online to help me regain my confidence and to meet people. Somehow, I lucked in to meeting an incredible woman the 4th time I decided to meet up with someone. Im not sure how much of those postings remain on the site, but it was a hard transition for me to learn to be with someone new. I was extremely lucky that she was patient with me and allowed me the time to work though whatever residual feelings and hangups I had relating to my XW. While our relationship moved fairly quickly, all things considered, I have since spent a long time kind of 'waiting' to make sure that I was with the "right" person instead of just settling for "a" person. In June, 2018, we were engaged. I know she was waiting/expecting for such an occasion a lot earlier, but I felt I owed it to myself and to my kids to make sure that this was going to be a lasting relationship and not just something for convenience. We were married a week and a half ago and I couldnt be more happy and excited about our present and our future.

I just wanted to let everyone know how much this site has meant to me over the years. While Ive probbly posted more information than I should have many times, the advice here has been candid and has helped me to look at my life, my interactions, my thoughts, my reactions and so on in a completely different way. While it wasnt effective in saving my last marriage, I believe that the lessons Ive learned will save THIS marriage. In fact, my first book after getting married is the 7 principles for making marriage work by Gottman smile

I plan to continue to post here as much as I can. Sometimes, the constant sadness in reading new situations brings me down, but I feel like the sense of community is so valuable that I want to continue to pass on whatever information I can. So thank you again for all of your support!
Posted By: BluWave Re: This much I know is true - 01/17/19 07:16 PM
Congratulations on your marriage. You are certainly a great success story! You also offer a lot of sound/logical advice to posters. You are much appreciated around here!

Blu
Posted By: Hurt213 Re: This much I know is true - 01/17/19 07:50 PM


What an inspirational read, it gives me hope for the future that is awaiting around the corner.

Congratulations on your wedding - I wish you and your family all the very best for the future smile.
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: This much I know is true - 01/17/19 08:41 PM
Awesome post, welcome back and congrats on your new marriage!!!
Posted By: ovrrnbw Re: This much I know is true - 01/18/19 02:22 AM
Glad to have you back, and congrats on the nuptials!
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