My husband keeps breaking up with me. Basically now he's saying that he is most likely leaving unless I change and somehow he feels positively towards me. The date is 8/15.
I can follow the 180 suggestions but it's slightly different since he's basically got me on probation since I want it more. (He's the bigger offender than me) so do I act like we're not together? He does act nicer when I do nice things for him though not all the time.
BIG URGENT QUESTION:
The big pressing issue is he wants me to give our tenants notice on a house that I bought before we were married and then it became joint property. Tomorrow is the day I'd have to do it. How do I respond within the DB guidelines to him forcing me to do something major that I'm not ready to do? I feel really manipulated. The downpayment was an inheritance. Asking him to promise that I get back will anger him and refusing to give them notice will anger him.
We have two kids. I have ADHD and I'm always afraid I'll lose my job and I guess that's part of why I want to stay in the marriage but also I love a lot of things about the man he used to be. Please help!
Me: 48 Him: 50
Trying to focus on me but we have kids and he still wants to do stuff together sometimes.
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH. Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Do what's best for you. I would say that if he wants you to kick them out so he can move in, definitely don't do it...
If he thinks you want him more, show him you don't (that's a good 180), be happy with or without him, that's where you need to get to.
Hello, I'm new to this and not always sure how to tell when or if I'm in the right place or how to see my messages or how to enable private messages.
So I've been married for 13 years, together for 16. My husband has always been quick to anger and I hold in my response until I react inappropriately but for the most part walk on egg shells fairly often. We have two children in middle school.
He's high critical, always has been. Then last fall he decided his true self was polyamorous though he said he hadn't acted on it. I know he tried to hook up with a gal at least once but was turned down.
Additionally he takes testosterone due to low levels, has pituitary issues and was taking antidepressants. So I wondered in the poly stuff was related to hormonal or medication--- I said I can't do the polyamory thing. He was pissed at my "possessiveness" and "tearing apart the family" over it. Then one night we fought so much that it got out of control, he broke a door and kicked me out, I called the police and they asked him to leave.
I wanted to be with my kids. At this point one would say "Why would you two want to stay together" I don't know - we have lots of wonderful experiences and adventures and have much in common as well and of course the children... I really don't know... but anyway, now he won't forgive me about the police and refuses to discuss any part he may have in what happened - now he says he's not polyamorous... he became so unpleasant that I found another place to live and then told him he could stay with us until he found another place to live.
Then he somehow turned it around into a power struggle where he's waiting for me to prove to me that he can trust me again - he never says how, only that he doesn't see that how that's possible... and that everyone says he should leave me and not put up with me (he's been arrested, fired, had social services called on him - AND thanked in a top psych best selling author's book, and is successful... and I'm generally a people pleaser, creative and spacey...
I have trouble rising in business though I'm generally quite likable, bubbly and outgoing) all that is to say I'm not the main offender in the relationship - I have my part of course... he's narcissistic I believe... anyway, he moved into the new place and built a fence (like he's staying awhile) and he keeps telling me that I need to change though he knows I won't. And we are now in separate rooms, not intimate, he doesn't wear a ring anymore and he no longer takes me on dates, and did not want to "celebrate" our anniversary a few days ago. He DOES want to do lots of family activities and extend this purgatory I guess. He keeps saying he will make a decision by 8/15. I get very confused about what do I want ... so since he leaves this narrow window of a possibility open I'm not sure if the 180 fully applies though it seems like it does.
He does respond favorably to nice things being done for him and tallies when things aren't nice though he no longer gives me gifts for special events (mothers day, birthday, anniversary) I think he just like holding this power over me and projecting the pain and anger on to me. He's constantly dumping negativity on to me and then telling me he doesn't want to be around my negativity and he's grown and I haven't.
It's gas-lighting. And as I write this I feel embarrassed that I would hope for a whole life made of the golden moments we've had. So I think I need to avoid him as much as possible without making it seem punitive or deliberate. We'll still go to things as a family but maybe when he comes into a room I'll find something to do in another room and not start conversations or try to please him... all the things that tell him he has power over me. What do you all think?
Sorry you're here. This is about as hard as life gets. We have a great community and I'm confident you'll meet some good friends and people that can support and guide you through.
More comments below, but I'll quote your post and highlight what stood out. I put words in which you negatively discuss WAH's behavior in red, words in which you talk about behavior that lead to this in blue.
Hello, I'm new to this and not always sure how to tell when or if I'm in the right place or how to see my messages or how to enable private messages.
So I've been married for 13 years, together for 16. My husband has always been quick to anger and I hold in my response until I react inappropriately but for the most part walk on egg shells fairly often. We have two children in middle school.
He's high critical, always has been. Then last fall he decided his true self was polyamorous though he said he hadn't acted on it. I know he tried to hook up with a gal at least once but was turned down.
Additionally he takes testosterone due to low levels, has pituitary issues and was taking antidepressants. So I wondered in the poly stuff was related to hormonal or medication--- I said I can't do the polyamory thing. He was pissed at my "possessiveness" and "tearing apart the family" over it. Then one night we fought so much that it got out of control, he broke a door and kicked me out, I called the police and they asked him to leave.
I wanted to be with my kids. At this point one would say "Why would you two want to stay together" I don't know - we have lots of wonderful experiences and adventures and have much in common as well and of course the children... I really don't know... but anyway, now he won't forgive me about the police and refuses to discuss any part he may have in what happened - now he says he's not polyamorous... he became so unpleasant that I found another place to live and then told him he could stay with us until he found another place to live.
Then he somehow turned it around into a power struggle where he's waiting for me to prove to me that he can trust me again - he never says how, only that he doesn't see that how that's possible... and that everyone says he should leave me and not put up with me (he's been arrested, fired, had social services called on him - AND thanked in a top psych best selling author's book, and is successful... and I'm generally a people pleaser, creative and spacey...
I have trouble rising in business though I'm generally quite likable, bubbly and outgoing) all that is to say I'm not the main offender in the relationship - I have my part of course... he's narcissistic I believe... anyway, he moved into the new place and built a fence (like he's staying awhile) and he keeps telling me that I need to change though he knows I won't. And we are now in separate rooms, not intimate, he doesn't wear a ring anymore and he no longer takes me on dates, and did not want to "celebrate" our anniversary a few days ago. He DOES want to do lots of family activities and extend this purgatory I guess. He keeps saying he will make a decision by 8/15. I get very confused about what do I want ... so since he leaves this narrow window of a possibility open I'm not sure if the 180 fully applies though it seems like it does.
He does respond favorably to nice things being done for him and tallies when things aren't nice though he no longer gives me gifts for special events (mothers day, birthday, anniversary) I think he just like holding this power over me and projecting the pain and anger on to me. He's constantly dumping negativity on to me and then telling me he doesn't want to be around my negativity and he's grown and I haven't.
It's gas-lighting. And as I write this I feel embarrassed that I would hope for a whole life made of the golden moments we've had. So I think I need to avoid him as much as possible without making it seem punitive or deliberate. We'll still go to things as a family but maybe when he comes into a room I'll find something to do in another room and not start conversations or try to please him... all the things that tell him he has power over me. What do you all think?
It's clear that in your mind you are a good person, and he has mental problems that is causing the issues. I don't know either of you so I'm not playing judge. But here's the thing. If this is true, then there isn't much you can do. Because you can't change him. If he is possessed by demons there isn't anything you can do to change the situation.
The bigger part that you've played in the breakdown of your marriage, the better your chances are of being able to make changes that could save your marriage.
My XW asked me to leave 2 years ago, filed D, and hasn't looked back. She told herself a story about me that would be just as red. It's too bad she didn't realize that every marriage is horrible during bad times, and there isn't a married person on this planet that couldn't build a case to a jury of friends and family about how wronged they were.
We often ask questions like "what was your role in this" and focus there, or "what would H's story be if her posted on a forum?" (odds are it would be equally weighted the other way! right or wrong...)
There is an old post I wrote for a former poster named Pyrite. I tried to explain to him as best I could how the behavior he was seeing wasn't reflective of who his partner was, and the role he played. It's a long one but please read it and let me know your thoughts.
PS- I don't believe that anyone is ever excused for causing pain. Everyone has their own decisions to make on how they choose to behave. I'm not suggesting you're to blame for him mistreating you. But the theme of DB is finding ways to change the dynamic of the marriage by changing your part of the dance. Keep posting and hang in.
****This is the card game I put together for my old buddy Pyrite:There were two people, you and your W. Let's pretend there's a game being played. You have 10 cards you can choose from, A low, 10 high. Each time either of you interact with each other you have to decide to play a card symbolizing how you treat each other. A 10 means you choose to be extremely loving, selfless, generous, noble, and operate from your highest spiritual self. A 5 means you're having an average day, you're on auto pilot, you may do some things for your mate but aren't really engaged. A 3 is negative, critical, impatient. Below that is the red zone where it becomes destructive, controlling, and potentially abusive.
In the beginning each of you plays a 10 card. You both feel good about the love you're feeling, and feel good about the love you're getting. Somehow that's hard to maintain with life getting in the way. Eventually you notice the cards she's playing are 5s and 6s. This is frustrating. You came to really like 10s. In fact, when she was playing 10 cards you felt really good. When she plays 5s and 6s you feel dissatisfied. You get frustrated that she won't play the 10s like she used to.
Disappointment leads to frustration. Frustration leads to hurt. Hurt leads to anger. Anger that isn't addressed builds into resentment. Next thing you know, you don't feel loving. You don't feel like playing 10s much either. In fact, you start to resent even having to play 5s and 6s yourself. It's not fair! Why should she get everything she wants and needs and for her to neglect you with a series of 5s? You can't be happy with 5s, and you would be with 10s, so really it's her failure to do her job that is the cause for your unhappiness. You start to play lower and lower cards. Partly because you are so resentful you can't stand the thought of giving her what she wants while you're not getting what you want. Partly to try to "get her attention", or show her that something is wrong. And partly because you just don't have the loving feelings that generate bigger loving numbers.
You NEED big numbers to be happy. She's failing. You must force her to play bigger numbers. There's only one strategy left. Time to play some 2s and A's. Put the hammer down. Make it clear this is unacceptable. Either you give me what I want and deserve or I will make things absolutely unbearable. Verbal abuse. Withholding affection. Critical comments. Bullying. Whatever.
***OK, STOP THE GAME A MINUTE***
I described how it felt to play this game. If someone asked "what type of guy are you, are you the kind of guy that plays A's or 10's or what?", you'd respond "I'm a GREAT guy, I'll play 10s or at least pretty big cards most of the time". If someone asked "why did you play so many A's and 2's the last couple of years? That looked borderline abusive", you'd reply "WHOA! That's NOT ME. That's not who I am! I only played those cards because SHE left me no choice! She was playing 3's and 4's and not loving me the way I need to be loved! If she had done HER JOB right I would've been HAPPY to respond with 7s, 9s, and a 10 now and then!"
So the whole issue in your mind was the way she treated you, and how it caused you to respond. You don't identify with you behavior because you see it as a reflection of her failure.
BUT THERE ARE SOME TRUTHS
-YOU ARE THE CARDS YOU CHOOSE TO PLAY. If you play A's and 2's, you are abusive. Doesn't matter why. If you kill someone you're a murderer. If you rob a bank you're a bank robber. And when you choose to treat someone poorly, then you are a BAD H. PERIOD.
-IT'S NOT HER JOB TO PLAY 10S AND MAKE YOU HAPPY. Yes, 10s feel great. It's a nice treat in life to experience. But that's not life. Life isn't a series of sexual adventures, passionate date nights, back rubs, and sharing poetry. Why? I don't know. We build a tolerance to things and quickly expect them and take them for granted. Heck, even if she kept playing 10s they would start to feel like 7s to you quickly as you got used to it. Eventually people get to a level they can maintain (such as 5s through 8s with an occasional 10) and it starts to feel like a disappointment. AND IF YOU USED THE 10S TO MAKE YOURSELF FEEL GOOD ABOUT YOUR LIFE YOU WILL SUDDENLY FEEL DISCONTENT AND FEEL YOUR PARTNER IS TO BLAME. SHE'S NOT. You have to be happy on your own, and take what you get as a bonus.
-ONLY YOU GET TO DECIDE WHAT CARDS YOU PLAY. It doesn't matter if she plays 10s or 1s. *YOU* decide each day what type of person you are, how you want to respond. It's YOUR choice, not hers. She can play a 3 and you can STILL CHOOSE to respond with a 10.
CONCLUSION-
So, the funny part about all of this is that SHE FEELS THE SAME WAY. She thinks you didn't play the cards she needed to feel happy. She excuses all of her poor behavior as the "natural" reaction to being treated so poorly from you. She thinks what you did is far worse. This extends all the way to the "cheating". In her mind she would've never cheated had you not emotionally abused her for years, and it was only because of your actions that she was forced to take refuge in someone else to preserve herself. Then she remembered what a 10 felt like and decided that you were just an Ahole that played 1s-3s, and she can't have that in her life, and she found someone that plays 10s, so see ya later.
Now you're not playing the game anymore. There's no more interaction. SO YOU'RE NOT DEALING WITH THE DIFFICULTY OF BEING DISAPPOINTED OR RESENTFUL. You start to find it easier to act like a fine and upstanding citizen. This further proves to you that it must've been her driving you crazy. WRONG. It's easier to conduct yourself well on your own. You're not better! If you were in a relationship again tomorrow you'd be back on the downward spiral again, and you'd be dropping 2's and A's on people in a controlling way until they left you as well. Why? Because you haven't learned another way yet!
For you to judge her on the cards she was playing and excuse your cards because they were the only possible reaction is not going to get you anywhere.
Step one is acknowledging the truths above, taking ownership for your behavior REGARDLESS of the context, and deciding what type of man you want to be. Step two is forgiving her for the cards she's played because now you see how she's done nothing you haven't also done. Step three is learning how to take responsibility for your own happiness so you don't resent your future partner for not being able to chemically maintain euphoria in your life. And step four is learning coping mechanisms so that you are able to maintain responses between 5-10 even when you feel hurt, threatened, or rejected.
When you reach that point where you can be truly ok without a woman's love to make you feel ok, then you can be free to choose to respond lovingly much more often. Oh, and that cheater that just dumped you? Maybe if you had the strength before to treat her differently she would've responded differently. That's the whole DB/DR idea- control your half of the dance and you'd be surprised at what you see in exchange. Of course, it will never be all 10s, that's why you have to grow a bit first. And if you do, people will take notice and you'll be ready for a truly successful M. Who knows...maybe she'll even notice...maybe she'll learn these things on her own after her fling dies down...you can't control that, but if YOU can't learn it how can you expect her to? I say lead by example and act with the character you wish she was utilizing. Maybe if you become the spiritual leader and walk this path she'll notice, and maybe follow suit. If not, you'll know you did your best to save the M, and more importantly you'll need an M to make you happy LESS, and be prepared to have a happy M MORE.
Chippie,
Since you are very new to the forum, I thought I would let you know that you can't enable the private messages. The system has never been activated. Also, stick to one thread at a time in each forum until you receive 100 postings/replies. Cadet may come along later and merge the two threads you have here. The reason for sticking to one thread at a time, it allows the readers to follow your situation and provide advice and when you have more than one thread going, posters do not know which one to post to. Also, one thread at a time is good for you so that you can go back and re-read the advice versus trying to find all of the threads, etc.
So, let's begin...your h has a quick trigger for anger. Can you tell us a bit about his parents and childhood? Has he ever had an issue w/alcohol or drugs? Is he an only child?
I can see why you are walking on eggshells around him. The anger is enough to put you on edge all of the time. He sounds like he's abusive and the only way he thinks that he can keep you in line is to exhibit the anger. If you were to express your opinions/decisions in a civil tone at the time of the incident, how would he react? Does he get angry or does he actually listen to you? Does he say you don't know what you are talking about or does he think you've got some good ideas? How does he interact w/the children? Does he treat them the same way that he does you?
This behavior isn't helping your self esteem one bit. Have you considered seeing an IC about it or talking to someone, i.e., a friend, co-worker, a family member? You are a people pleaser and a fixer and you don't deserve to be treated this way by anyone. You are a human being who deserves to be recognized for her contributions in this world and you have two beautiful children that are witnessing how their father treats their mother. The changes I see that need to be made is that you need to find a way to become stronger, more confident and self-reliant. You need to believe in yourself and know that whether he stays or goes, you are going to be just fine.
Of course, he responds favorably to nice things being done for him. He's expecting you to jump thru hoops for him and when something isn't done the way he thinks it should be or at the snap of his fingers, he marks it on his list of your faults. You need to own only 50% of the breakdown of your marriage and work on this things that need to be repaired. You can't fix him because he doesn't think that there is anything wrong w/him. If he does have the NPD, there's no fixing him and he will continue to make his checklist and punish you each and every time you don't measure up to his expectations.
You need to put some distance between you and try to get stronger and healthier and come to realize that you are the prize and you a wonderful person who does not need to be abused by his anger and his high expectations. Just leave him alone. If he contacts you, be civil, but I will warn you. He will use any method possible to get you back into his game. If he's nice, you can be nice too...but keep those expectations at zero at all times. If he's nasty, just tell him that you are sorry he feels that way and hang up the phone or walk away or find something else to do. You do not need to be his punching bag.
I'm very worried about you. Please be careful. NP's can be dangerous if they think they are losing their victims and they will do whatever it takes to get them back into web until they can locate a new victim.
Job, I defer to your position, experience, and wisdom. Maybe I can learn from you.
Your last post speaks as though it's been established that her husband is narcissistic and abusive. There are certainly narcissists out there. And abuse is unfortunately more common than I wish it were. But what she posted was that he was "quick to anger" and during an incident in which things got out of control he "broke a door".
I broke a door a year ago. My son did something way out of line, he defiantly slammed the door and locked it, I demanded he opened it, he didn't, I threw my shoulder against it and burst it open. If you followed me through my 10 year marriage I probably have 3 incidents like this. Yet my home with my children is peaceful, they feel safe and loved, and if tensions do rise they die down just as quickly and they are not a big deal. I'm not afraid of living in a world where things get tense on occasion.
But XW did what so many do. She labelled me as angry and abusive, diagnosed me with several personality disorders, and looked at my parents and my childhood and knowingly put together how someone as problematic as me could have come around.
There's only one problem. She's a single mother and has lost a great man and the only shot at a lifelong partnership with the father of her children she'll have.
Job, I'm not defending this man. I don't know him, or what he's done. I understand that not all abuse has to be physical. But I didn't get the impression here that her situation was abusive. It seemed to me that they had a really destructive cycle going on. I absolutely agree she shouldn't be in a destructive cycle. But in my mind the entire point of DB was breaking the cycle by changing your own behavior. I always kneejerk when people go down the road of focusing on the spouse's behavior and diagnosing them as the problem spouse. Doesn't mean there aren't destructive situations that trump saving the marriage. I guess I just didn't see the signs of it that would lead you to agree that he's a dangerous narcissist looking for his victim.
I'll close my mouth and listen to others. I want Chippie safe and don't want to cause harm by rugsweeping. I really am interested in hearing more. Thank you.
Zues,
I do understand where you are coming from and yes, we all have spurts of anger, let loose, get over it and move on. However, my concern is that from what Chippie has described, he could very well be exhibiting some narcissistic behaviors. When people are dealing with a crisis some low level personality disorders can possibly come out. In this case, Chippie even suspects he may be narcissistic...again, it's not been established because he's not seen a professional and most likely doesn't think that there is anything going on w/him. In fact, he doesn't see anything wrong w/being a "controller". This is one of the reasons that I asked about his childhood, etc. I wanted to know if this type of behavior took place in his childhood home, etc. and if it's been ongoing and just got worse over time.
Based on the description of the other things that Chippie's husband has done and continues to do could be considered emotional/mental abuse. The way he keeps the naughty/nice listing and then withholding things from her can fit into the emotional/mental abuse category. She's walking on eggshells around him because she's afraid of the way he's going to react, etc. This is not normal behavior, nor should anyone have to live/walk on eggshells a large majority of the time for fear that you aren't living up to your spouse's expectations and than he/she punishes you for not doing so.
If a person is a true blue narcissistic, and I do mean if, that person could be very vindictive and use any method to punish his "victim" if the "victim" should go against their expectations and/or leave. This is stated over and over again in literature on this type of personality. Again, I want to emphasize, her husband may be demonstrating certain traits of the NPD, if he's in crisis and they may go away once the crisis is over, but that doesn't excuse his behavior nor should she be his punching bag.
I would like to see Chippie get into a support group and/or see an IC to help her better understand how this destructive cycle is affecting her and her children. Also, she may be able to pick up some useful tips on how to better interact w/this man.
I also would like to see what Vanilla has to say about the situation.
I truly want to see Chippie in a healthy and happy relationship that is fulfilling and one that has both partners working together to raise their children to adulthood.
Wow, chippie, you have two very respected veterans here really trying to understand the root cause of these issues and help you. I would suggest that you provide as much detail information as you can, it will help them gain insight and provide you with the best recommendations in moving forward.
Zeus and Job, my assessment is that he lies between what you’re each saying. I’m not in fear of physical danger – the one time that happened I really taunted him and that is not at all typical of me.
He’s sensitive and quick to anger and snaps at the kids, yells too and is also extremely dedicated and engaged with them. He spends a lot of time with them.
Job, There has been a consistent ebb and flow of irritation, static, snapping at me, double standards, over-reaction to my part in our issues… combined with wonderful adventures, film festivals, travel around the world, meeting interesting successful people, many nights cuddling as a family of four watching movies together… today we are going biking, tomorrow, tubing…
Yesterday for the umpteenth time he asked me “how can I ever forgive you for calling the police? For putting my life at risk… by possibly getting me put in a mental institution or shot dead” (I called them because he separated me from my children, kicked me out, was mildly physically abusive for the first and only time by breaking a door, throwing water at me, throwing me computer across the room to me and a light swat to the head) His sister has hated him for much of her life and calls him a sociopath. He’s been fired, social services came because someone reported him cursing the children in the background and heard someone say “ow”. I wasn’t home. He’s been arrested a few times.
I enjoy so much of our lives together but I’ve lost respect for him for treating me this way and I’ve lost respect for myself for staying, living in fear of not doing so well on my own.
He was sexually abused as a child and is a sober alcoholic.
I go to Alanon so I understand all about keeping the focus on myself and yet OLD HABITS DIE HARD!
I have a part in all of this as well. I’m sometimes passive aggressiveness, I’m insecure, I have ADD so I’m impulsive and forgetful and put my foot in my mouth a lot.
This a wonderful the way my post is divided between focusing on him and focusing on myself.
What I’m wondering is how to handle myself when he is really baiting me and engaging with me.
Yesterday he wanted to talk about the relationship and I listened and used the stock phrases provided here “I can see how you might feel that way” “let me think about that”… but the blaming and shaming is relentless and he has to draw upon the same incident over and over again – that I called the police. He’s obsessive compulsive so I hear this over and over again “How will you fix this? I don’t think you can” I can focus on myself but I don’t know what to do when he’s dumping on me and this happens a lot. He doesn’t want to go to couples therapy and says that we can discuss things on our own. I told him we don’t have the skills to do that.
When I’m calm and rational in response to his accusations he is better than when I flip out of course but he still alters reality to fit his fears and his supposition. He’ll say I’m wrong. I say “I see things differently” I have a different take on things.
And on a positive note, it will be great to spend more time doing art instead of obsessing about him and essentially blaming him for my not doing art. It’s a great practice opportunity for my next relationship or our relationship if things turn around.
OK we are celebrating a delayed fathers day … finished a wonderful bike ride and we’re going to finish a movie from the other day and then go to a drive-in with the kids. A very nice day. Oh and earlier he glued my bed back together which took him a very long time and was unpleasant work.
Very different days from one day to the next.
I’m off to join them now… more soon.
Threads are now merged together, like Job said stick to one thread from now on until you get to 100 posts.
I agree with Jobs assessment and will reiterate that people in crisis can sometime exhibit other personality disorders which can make diagnosis extremely difficult.
Keep focusing on yourself as you can not fix him as you did not break him.
Yesterday for the umpteenth time he asked me “how can I ever forgive you for calling the police? For putting my life at risk… by possibly getting me put in a mental institution or shot dead” (I called them because he separated me from my children, kicked me out, was mildly physically abusive for the first and only time by breaking a door, throwing water at me, throwing me computer across the room to me and a light swat to the head) His sister has hated him for much of her life and calls him a sociopath. He’s been fired, social services came because someone reported him cursing the children in the background and heard someone say “ow”. I wasn’t home. He’s been arrested a few times.
Hey Chippie, hi, nice to meet you. I am not a veteran at all, just old
, but think maybe your husband might be going thru a midlife crisis or as Job suggested, might have a narcissistic personality disorder. The two share a lot of traits, like being critical, self-absorbed liars, but I know of two husbands with true full-blown NPD (ex-husbands at this point) of women I've met on this forum, and they are both cruel, negative, scary dudes who lack a conscience and think the world revolves around them, and who like to give the appearance of being wonderful fathers and men, who had been abused and deserted by the wives they actually emotionally and physically abused for so long.
Please please be careful.
What I’m wondering is how to handle myself when he is really baiting me and engaging with me.
Yesterday he wanted to talk about the relationship and I listened and used the stock phrases provided here “I can see how you might feel that way” “let me think about that”… but the blaming and shaming is relentless and he has to draw upon the same incident over and over again – that I called the police. He’s obsessive compulsive so I hear this over and over again “How will you fix this? I don’t think you can”
I can focus on myself but I don’t know what to do when he’s dumping on me and this happens a lot.
Those phrases are great for validating his statements. I also told my own ex "I'm sorry you feel like that" a lot; it deflected a lot of his nastiness. And after a couple of years (I'm a slow learner LOL) finally started walking away when I'd had enough of him. You can try that when he is dumping on you. Tell him something like "I'm sorry you feel like that but I am not going to stand here and listen to you blame and shame me" and leave the room. Do NOT leave the house.
And on a positive note, it will be great to spend more time doing art instead of obsessing about him and essentially blaming him for my not doing art. It’s a great practice opportunity for my next relationship or our relationship if things turn around.
Anything that will keep you from obsessing about him and having fun is a great GAL (get a life) activity. Go do some art!
Also, in addition to Job's advice about sticking to one thread, you might want to make your own thread a "watched topic." That way, you will get an email when someone posts on it. In the top heading, click on "topic options" then "add topic to your watched topics."
Hang in there!
RosaLinda,
Thank you.
Why did you say "Do NOT leave the house?"
and the other thing is that I can't say "Sorry you feel that way..." because it's a flag of insincerity for him. Instead I have to say things like "I'm disappointed you feel that way..." a linguistic mind field.
We do a lot of family activities together. Is that OK? We went to a potluck and I made an effort to always find other people to chat with and never go stand next to him and let him come stand next to me. I didn't leave immediately but after awhile I would go and talk to someone else.
I'm trying to find activities in any room other than the one he's in. This is hard since he basically camps out with his computer at the kitchen table. I have to spend some time in the kitchen. Tonight as a family we went to a drive-in movie. We each had one child to cuddle with. Today was a rather superb day - but this was never the issue - having a great day, the issue is consistency and overall calm rather than so many highs and lows and such frequent changeover.
I think what RosaLinda meant when she said "do NOT leave the house" is that you do not move out. You can move into another bedroom, i.e., not share the space w/him, but you do not move out. Why? Because it can be seen as abandonment in the eyes of the court in some states. Don't give him that advantage. The only time you move out is if he gets physical and you feel that you and your children are in physical danger from him...but also be sure to call the police and advise them of the situation as well.
Oh I'm sorry Chippie, yes Job is right. I meant not to move out of your house again. It's a mistake lots of LBSs make, but with potential dire legal and emotional consequences.
Actually that whole scenario perplexes me! You got a new place and moved out, and then your H moved into your new place? What happened to your original home, that you shared?
I'm also sorry that you cannot say you're sorry because he thinks that indicates insincerity. LOL Is he eastern European? One of my ex's OW was Lithuanian, and was always accusing me of insincerity if I said I was sorry about something or even asked about her health. Why I cared I really cannot say.
Sure it's okay to do stuff as a family. My DB coach told me to be pleasant when my ex spoke to me, but not to pursue him or pester him or initiate conversations about our relationship.
And to take a good long hard look at myself and change the things that need fixing. And to forgive myself for the things I'd done that contributed to the demise of my marriage, and to resolve to be and do better.
What kind of art do you do? Is it related to your job?
OK So he kicked me out one night and I wasn't in danger (out of the house) but he wouldn't let me take the kids so I called the police. I'm not sure that I was wrong to do that. But I have told him now that I'm sorry that I called them. I guess my reaction was extreme? I really don't know.
Our lease ended at the last place and since he kept breaking up with me repeatedly (never stating we were back together again but then breaking up again) so that it's hard to believe him now. At that time I thought we were done done so I found my own place then told him that he could stay with me while looking for his own place but I guess since he initiated the break up he just without telling me was not broken up and now we're all here in the new place. He keeps saying he's not sure and will decide by 8/15. He randomly chose that date. We now have separate rooms. I will be careful about not leaving the house. We are co-existing now and not arguing much since we're mostly not discussing issues. I can say "sorry" just not "sorry you feel that way" because then it can be seen that I'M not sorry about MY actions just sorry HE feels the way he does.
I do photography and painting and collages on wood. It's not related to work.
Me 48, him 50
M 13 y
daughter 10 & 11
separate rooms since April
Called police in Feb
Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka
that I totally agree with.
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.
Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
Chippie, I'll leave the advice to the vets, I don't feel I have the knowledge to offer any.
However, I want to address him constantly reverting back negatively to you calling the police. It makes me think that he is trying to make you think that calling the police to protect yourself is the wrong thing to do. Positive reinforcement is the way to show kids, or train dogs, to do the right thing. I think he is doing the opposite and trying to train you not to get the police involved, because they interfere with his being able to control the situation.
Don't allow him to sway what you know is the right thing to do.
Regarding the resentment about the police call...I've seen this pattern a lot. It reminds me of juju's WAH who was angry at her for getting the courts involved to get child support. Whether these actions were necessary or not isn't really the point. It's not hard to understand his point of view. It ties in to the card game from my first post.
It's 2016. What are some of the worst things people can say about a man? He's abusive, I'm not safe around him, he's a deadbeat dad...those words paint the picture of a guy straight out of the 50's wearing a wife beater, drinking too much beer, insulting his wife and bullying her around, and ignoring the kids. These days that's considered not just a deal breaker, but a deal breaker that leaves the woman talking to her friends about what a jerk her guy was, and setting him up to be the villain in her personal narrative, where the next guy that jumps in gets to be the white knight, the good guy who isn't like that. So when he sees you talking about him like you think he's abusive or a deadbeat, that is going to provoke a reaction.
XW did this to me. She called me abusive, said she was walking on eggshells, that she couldn't be herself when I was around. She couldn't feel safe. And much more. I was nothing like the guy in the description above. I certainly never laid hands on her, I've never been abused or abusive. But I know. "Not all abuse is physical". These days any time a woman is in emotional pain the husband is thought to be abusive. I don't know, I spent three years in a soul torturing painful sexless marriage, that's not abuse, in fact it always comes back to "she had a reason, probably because YOU were a bad husband..."
Yes, there is abuse out there, it is extremely serious, and I'm not dismissing that. What I was though was more of the "Nice guy" type. If you look at the forum here you'll see that applies to like 90% of guys. It's because for decades we've been saying the guy from the 50's is a monster, so we're all trying to be the opposite. Sensitive, thoughtful, respectful, anything you say dear. All with the expectation that the wife will reciprocate, appreciate him for not being a 'bad guy', and that she'll meet his needs. When this doesn't happen he becomes hurt, then resentful, and often passive aggressive. What the husband wants more than anything else is for the wife to love and respect him, and to meet his needs. His behavior, be it guilting, punishing, avoiding, different forms of control, is often a desperation attempt to communicate what he needs from her. But instead of her saying "oh, love of my life, I can see you were in great pain because I wasn't doing xxxxx and you need that from me", she says "you are abusive, I don't feel safe with you, you need to leave!"
So calling the cops, getting the courts involved, all of these things...it is the most grievous character attack that can be made on a man, coming from the person who's viewpoint he cares about the most. I think it's a good thing he is so upset about the cops, that means he cares what you think. What I'm guessing he wants to hear is something along the lines of "H, you're a good guy. There are a lot of bad guys out there, you've always made sure to take care of me and the kids, and I was lucky to find you. I was upset when you did a/b/c, but in retrospect I can see that was a reaction to something else, and that you were really wounded by x/y/z and simply doing everything you could to communicate that to me. I'm sorry that x/y/z ever hurt you that much, and that instead of hearing you I blamed you and your reaction."
Maybe you can't say that. Maybe he is an abusive dangerous animal. Maybe you can't provide x/y/z, or he's unreasonable for expecting it, maybe he's carrying open wounds and no matter what you do he is in pain and blaming you. I can't speak to any of that. But the bottom line is this. Validate both that he's a good guy, and the wounds you inflicted that he feels drove him to behave this way. Do that and he'll follow you around like a puppy dog.
What would he say drove him to that escalated state? Why did he feel he had to raise his voice? What weren't you hearing?
***REMINDER, I'm not suggesting that abuse is the victim's fault. Somewhere there's a line between abuse and normal pain/anger. If it's abuse, it's abuse, and you at some point walk away and protect yourself. Only thing is that you can't save a marriage if that's your call. So while we don't want to rug sweep or be in harm's way, we also don't want to jump the gun on that label when this dynamic plays out in many normal relationships.
Zues, I agree with a lot of your posts, but not so much with this one. I think that perhaps your looking at the bottom line..which is how to save a marriage and I respect that. But there is something about the dynamics in this thread that doesn't sit right.
Plus I'm feeling a bit sensitive here too
Regarding the resentment about the police call...I've seen this pattern a lot. It reminds me of juju's WAH who was angry at her for getting the courts involved to get child support. Whether these actions were necessary or not isn't really the point. It's not hard to understand his point of view. It ties in to the card game from my first post.
I don't understand this comment. Why isn't it about whether these actions were necessary? Chickie was locked out of her home and separated from her children. Her husband had just thrown water at her, tried to throw a computer at her and physically hit her in the head? I would have been more worried about the safety of my children during that moment then the embarrassment husband would face. If he ended up hurting the kids, and she didn't call the police she would have to live with that.
This does not seem to be a tit for tat incident.
My husband walked out and would not give me child support because he felt like my parents were supporting us. I asked him on 2 occasions and both times he refused and then would make comments about how because I was asking him, reconciliation would not be an option and that he would take more time with son (in which case I would tell him, I would like for you to see son more). I even went to his mom, and while she offered to help pay for things she did not want to get involved and even mentioned court. It took me 5 months to take him to court and that was after I found out he was taking 9 day vacations somewhere traveling via plane while my parents were helping me so I could afford to take son to pool. My husband also was living rent and expense free with his mom and earns 3 figures, not accounting for moonlighting. My parents were paying for everything I could not.
Chippie If you would like, I could give you my old posting name and you can read about the agony I went through debating when and how to ask him for this support. I was a wreck for months because I was afraid it would affect his willingness to reconcile with me. This was also not done as a tit for tat. It was done because I was not being fair to my parents, myself, or my child by allowing this to continue.
It's 2016. What are some of the worst things people can say about a man? He's abusive, I'm not safe around him, he's a deadbeat dad...those words paint the picture of a guy straight out of the 50's wearing a wife beater, drinking too much beer, insulting his wife and bullying her around, and ignoring the kids. These days that's considered not just a deal breaker, but a deal breaker that leaves the woman talking to her friends about what a jerk her guy was, and setting him up to be the villain in her personal narrative, where the next guy that jumps in gets to be the white knight, the good guy who isn't like that. So when he sees you talking about him like you think he's abusive or a deadbeat, that is going to provoke a reaction.
XW did this to me. She called me abusive, said she was walking on eggshells, that she couldn't be herself when I was around. She couldn't feel safe. And much more. I was nothing like the guy in the description above. I certainly never laid hands on her, I've never been abused or abusive. But I know. "Not all abuse is physical". These days any time a woman is in emotional pain the husband is thought to be abusive. I don't know, I spent three years in a soul torturing painful sexless marriage, that's not abuse, in fact it always comes back to "she had a reason, probably because YOU were a bad husband..."
. Yes I agree. Calling the abuse card to justify walking away from a marriage and family is disgusting. My husband did that. He told me, his friends, and coworkers that I was verbally abusive. He misquoted things I said and discussed horrible gifts I gave him as proof of abuse. He also told me and mc he felt like he was walking on egg shells and I was given title by MC as being hyper sensitive. There are a lot of articles out there written for men that describe it as abusive when women nag or complain about things getting done. And you know what? For the longest time I really believed I was horribly abusive. I still question myself. I often felt frusturated and I am certain there were better ways I could have communicated. I am constantly asking myself " am I villifying? Am I being unfair?"
There was an incident before having my son... I was upset with husband because He was spending money on luxury car and season tickets and not saving money and not clearing his stuff so I could get the nursery finished. I am sure he perceived it as nagging and criticism. I was due in a few weeks and was getting really stressed but was super tired so the argument was occuring with me sitting reclined in bed. Husband took the book out of my hand and threw it at my stomach.
I was not scared, the book was a paper back but I was super surprised at his action. I asked him to leave, he apologized immediatly and I forgave quickly and he never left the apt. I don't know if this action is abusive. I don't know if chickies husband actions are abusive. But they were shitty. And humiliating.
A few months ago my husband brought up the fact that I actually once kicked him out in order to prove how horrible I was to him.
I have never brought this incident up and never will accept where I am anonymous. I am not looking for a white knight. My husband is not dangerous nor is he a physical threat to me. Just someone who could not figure out how to negotiate or argue appropriatly and perhaps needing control. But I will ask you this...
Did you or any husbands here act in ways comparable? I'm not talking about yelling or hitting a wall.
I am sure that my husband and chippies husband felt similarly to you and perhaps 90% of the nice guys here. But not fair to compare unless you also walked away, refused to support your kids, threw things at your spouse, I can name some more too but won't. Entirely different.
Just as we are entirely different from your wives.
Yes, there is abuse out there, it is extremely serious, and I'm not dismissing that. What I was though was more of the "Nice guy" type. If you look at the forum here you'll see that applies to like 90% of guys. It's because for decades we've been saying the guy from the 50's is a monster, so we're all trying to be the opposite. Sensitive, thoughtful, respectful, anything you say dear. All with the expectation that the wife will reciprocate, appreciate him for not being a 'bad guy', and that she'll meet his needs. When this doesn't happen he becomes hurt, then resentful, and often passive aggressive. What the husband wants more than anything else is for the wife to love and respect him, and to meet his needs. His behavior, be it guilting, punishing, avoiding, different forms of control, is often a desperation attempt to communicate what he needs from her. But instead of her saying "oh, love of my life, I can see you were in great pain because I wasn't doing xxxxx and you need that from me", she says "you are abusive, I don't feel safe with you, you need to leave!"
So calling the cops, getting the courts involved, all of these things...it is the most grievous character attack that can be made on a man, coming from the person who's viewpoint he cares about the most. I think it's a good thing he is so upset about the cops, that means he cares what you think. What I'm guessing he wants to hear is something along the lines of "H, you're a good guy. There are a lot of bad guys out there, you've always made sure to take care of me and the kids, and I was lucky to find you. I was upset when you did a/b/c, but in retrospect I can see that was a reaction to something else, and that you were really wounded by x/y/z and simply doing everything you could to communicate that to me. I'm sorry that x/y/z ever hurt you that much, and that instead of hearing you I blamed you and your reaction."
I wouldn't say that unless it was true. Yes maybe earlier in relationship when there was truth to it. But not when husband is behaving poorly.
If a husband wants respect it has to be earned. Throwing things like a child is not going to earn a husband respect. Learning and implementing good leadership skills will.
I tried that when he had left and it just served to prove to him how justified he was in his thinking and I think it makes ones word worth less. Kind of like praising a kid too much when they are doing things half assed. Instead I would get help from top counselors and social workers. If we had done that earlier there might have been a chance.
Looking back I am greatful i involved the courts. My only regret is that I did not do it sooner. I have started a college fund for my son. i have no idea where husbands money was going prior. I know it was not going for son or family though.
My brothers and I were raised with strict consequences. I made mistakes in my relationship, husband left. Husband refuses child support courts get involved. Husband locks out wife and throws stuff at her police get called. That's life. We have to be responsible for our actions.
Maybe you can't say that. Maybe he is an abusive dangerous animal. Maybe you can't provide x/y/z, or he's unreasonable for expecting it, maybe he's carrying open wounds and no matter what you do he is in pain and blaming you. I can't speak to any of that. But the bottom line is this. Validate both that he's a good guy, and the wounds you inflicted that he feels drove him to behave this way. Do that and he'll follow you around like a puppy dog.
What would he say drove him to that escalated state? Why did he feel he had to raise his voice? What weren't you hearing?
***REMINDER, I'm not suggesting that abuse is the victim's fault. Somewhere there's a line between abuse and normal pain/anger. If it's abuse, it's abuse, and you at some point walk away and protect yourself. Only thing is that you can't save a marriage if that's your call. So while we don't want to rug sweep or be in harm's way, we also don't want to jump the gun on that label when this dynamic plays out in many normal relationships.
Thanks for the post J. I don't disagree. Sometimes it feels like we're all looking at different parts of the elephant and seeing the same thing from different angles. I'm definitely guilty of this as my experience has been a twighlight zone episode of fallout that I still struggle to believe is legally endorsed and culturally accepted. So I'm definitely sensitive to this stuff too, and I appreciate your feedback and the respectful way it was delivered.
The one thing I will say is that you always try hard to see things from every angle, challenge yourself, hold yourself to a high standard and look hard in the mirror every day. You HAVE spent a lot of time wrestling with those questions, and that is why you have always been one of my DB heroes. When you live in that way I feel confident the decisions you make will either be right on, or as close as you can get being that we're all flawed humans.
Maybe my message should have been to simply do the same. If a WAS is deemed to be a threat then cut bait, but if you're trying to save a marriage it makes sense to understand their narrative, the role you play in it, and as much about the dynamic as possible so you can change it by changing your part of the dance. I know when I came on the boards I was encouraged to think long and hard about these things. If you read back through my posts no one ever suggested that XW was a person I needed to protect myself from, it was about me, my thought patterns, my contributions to the breakdown of the marriage, and what I needed to own up to. And while WAS's are notorious for spewing venom, we are instructed to find the underlying unmet needs behind the pain and resentment they are taking out on us to find the nuggets of truth, own them, and do 180s to try to become better people. That's what I've come to accept as part of the standard DB process, so we have more recovered marriages and less divorces with pointed fingers. That's what I've been trying to say all along I think.
I can say "sorry" just not "sorry you feel that way" because then it can be seen that I'M not sorry about MY actions just sorry HE feels the way he does.
But that is exactly the proper time to say this, Chippie. To let him know that you are sorry that he feels the way he does, NOT that you are sorry about your actions. If you ever do something you regret, apologize. Apologize immediately. But don't apologize because your husband is p!ssed off that you reacted appropriately to his actions and words, including calling the police if you honestly feel it is necessary.
What I'm guessing he wants to hear is something along the lines of "H, you're a good guy. There are a lot of bad guys out there, you've always made sure to take care of me and the kids, and I was lucky to find you. I was upset when you did a/b/c, but in retrospect I can see that was a reaction to something else, and that you were really wounded by x/y/z and simply doing everything you could to communicate that to me. I'm sorry that x/y/z ever hurt you that much, and that instead of hearing you I blamed you and your reaction."
I wouldn't say that unless it was true. Yes maybe earlier in relationship when there was truth to it. But not when husband is behaving poorly.
If a husband wants respect it has to be earned. Throwing things like a child is not going to earn a husband respect. Learning and implementing good leadership skills will.
I absolutely agree with you, JuJuB! Zues126 do you really consider someone whose actions include "breaking a door, throwing water at me, throwing me computer across the room to me and a light swat to the head," and who also decided that he should be allowed to be polyamorous, someone who deserves being told "you've always made sure to take care of me and the kids, and I was lucky to find you?" And that his actions were an appropriate means of "doing everything you could to communicate that to me???"
I think it's a good thing he is so upset about the cops, that means he cares what you think.
Maybe but maybe not, maybe it just means that he's angry. I'm sorry your ex falsely told people that you were abusive, that she felt like she was walking on eggshells, and didn't feel safe around you without cause. But I would not agree that Chippie's husband's actions are a dynamic that "plays out in many normal relationships." I would not call your ex's actions normal, nor Chippie's husband's actions either.
Chippie, thanks for explaining about your new home. So is the lease only in your name? I think that might be a good thing. My ex used to give me a lot of arbitrary dates that he planned to move out, but never did. What is it that YOU want? You sound a bit ambivalent about whether or not you would like to preserve your marriage. You'd mentioned that he has always been quick to anger, but is this more abusive behavior new on your husband's part? I was thinking maybe it is due to his testosterone replacement medication - it can cause men to emotionally over-react and can cause anxiety and depression. Thyroid medication can cause mood swings too.
This upset me:
he somehow turned it around into a power struggle where he's waiting for me to prove to me that he can trust me again - he never says how, only that he doesn't see that how that's possible...
What have you done that makes your husband distrust you, besides call the police that time? It sounds as if you should distrust him! I think the only way a person who has betrayed someone's trust can ever regain that trust is by their actions. By consistently keeping their word and being honest and straightforward. But I bet that nothing you ever do or say will ever be enough for him.
How are your girls handling all of this?
oh sorry Zues I was writing my questions to you based on your previous post. I agree with what you said about finding the nuggets of truth about ourselves in our spouses' spewing, and changing them to become better people. But I also think a lot of the spewing is lies and excuses. My ex told me he did not love me anymore because I was too short. He also sent out a mass email falsely informing our friends and family that I had been cheating on him since the day we got married, was abusive, and had tried to poison him. Sigh..... I'm a nurse; if I wanted to poison someone, he would be dead LOL
Coconut, I think it's about control mingled with real hurt. My own therapist thinks it was extreme to call the police so that confuses me. I get what you're saying though.
Zues, I wish that what you were saying were true. I know that he would love for me to say all those things. And I actually have said those things. He actually IS a very good dad and I tell him that but it's hard to keep saying that when he tells me I'm a bad Mom or says nothing. He says a lot of things that contradict himself.
In the situation where the police were involved I provoked that situation which is unlike me. I'm not saying this to blame myself because we're both adults and he should be able to control his own part. I was mocking him because at the time he was insisting that he was polyamorous and that I should allow him to have a girlfriend. This is why I think he is/was having a MLC. I said hell to the no! But you're free to go. And then he accused me of trying to break up the family and trying to own him. It was crazymaking gaslighting stuff. He's not an animal. He IS very troubled and very lazy when it comes to how he treats me. He's very charming too. He's decided he's no longer polyamorous and claims it was only to fill the hole in the relationship and bad sex life with me. More insult to injury. It's not my fault but I have a part in it. I would love to actually sweep the police situation under the rug and move on and make every day great and do fun stuff all the time. He's the one that doesn't want to move on and focus on the positive. So I think learning to detach and do the 180 is the best plan. I've tried fill him up with positive after positive and he's truly a bottomless pit. I get that nice guys get angry and resentful. He is not you. He's different. Remember that his sister thinks that he's a narcisstic sociopath. He was fired for cursing out his boss. He's been arrested once or twice. Social services called.... very angry and disgruntled... AND talks about meditation and spiritual program etc. But he's not reaping those benefits. I think you see resemblances to your own situation and you were judged more harshly than was fair but this is a little bit different. Even I don't know for sure because I have my own bias but I'm pretty sure. Last fall he was on some cocktail of meds that made him my dreamboat but also he slept all the time. lol So I'm holding on the the dream, the possibility that it could work - and because we have kids, and because the finances would be hard if we split. And he's angry and vindictive and OH so smart that I'm afraid that he'd get the kids away from me if he got angry enough though he says we'd split the time with the kids. I really don't know what I want and what I should be working towards so the 180 plan seems a reasonable way to bide time. Tonight we all went to dinner and went grocery shopping. We all laughed at dinner. Then he hung up things I wanted screwed into the wall and then asked me to watch Orange is the New Black with him. And then he went to bed to his own room. It's like having an extremely controlling roommate. I don't want a roommate. I want a sex life and a plan to grow old with someone who is committed. I'm tweaking my behavior to get closer to 180 but I feel like I'm still at his beck and call. He certainly has me wrapped around his finger. If he wanted to suddenly be back with me I'd go for it. I have my limits but there's not much to them. The polyamory was a limit. I'm not interested in that lifestyle. And anyway, he was never without jealousy of my behavior so it was uneven anyway. By the way, I changed my computer password so he can't see stuff on my computer. My therapist tried to tell him about the book though. She said "chippie is reading a good book, you should try it." but he really didn't care. He isn't trying to improve the relationship - he's trying to control it - or so it seems.
Oh dear, I've gotten a bit confused and responded without clearly following everything though I think everything I wrote was true I just missed some parts.
He IS verbally and emotionally abusive - I'm NOT throwing these words around lightly. He regularly calls me names - though not lately... January he called me a piece of [censored]. When he get's like that it's nauseating. More and more I see it as a sick child spinning out and not about me but it does seep into my psyche. Now he is either friendly and fun or sulky or accusatory.
Ugh I hate writing because I think it makes it clear that I should leave. But I'm not sure. I really am very confused.
Here's the takeaway - I DO HAVE A PART - I always knew I had a part but I'm seeing now that my part isn't the part I thought.
I didn't make him do the things he did or vice versa. But my part is being overly dependent on him and his opinion. Being a people pleaser. Focusing on myself is a very good thing for me to work on. Another part I can own is my self pity and the trash talking of him. I simultaneously want to prove to all of you how bad he is and also find out how to get him to ACTUALLY follow me around like a puppy. I have trash talked him to his mother, sister, aunt and many of my friends. Trash talking is harsh on me - I've told them my angle of his trashy behavior, complained a lot but never left which is exhausting for everyone. I've told you some things about him to try to paint a story - it looks worse here because I've told you all the worst stuff... mainly it's the daily irritability.. that is grating... But then again his own aunt said most people would have left a long time ago and she loves him like I do... actually at this point, more than I do.
RosaLinda, would it be helpful if I asked him what meds he's on now? He might get suspicious... but I might be able to find out.
Linda, to lose his trust... called the police and told them though unlikely, what if he were to hurt himself and the kids... he says I lied to the police. I told them it was unlikely. But I thought it was unacceptable to kick me out and separate me from the kids and I told him "IF you kick me out without the kids I will call the police" and that's what I did. Then he angrily invited me back in but before I could process what he said he said never mind and slammed the door and went back in. I turned off my phone and used a friends phone so he couldn't see where I had gone. After the police incident I turned the phone back on and saw that he had texted that I should come home and that he was sleeping upstairs with the girls. OH I also threw water on the bed that he was going to sleep on that night - that threw him into a rage and had earlier ignored his time out. The next day he was sad and worried and respectful. Since then he has worked himself into a massive resentment. It think it has to do with the balance of power. He knows now that I want to get back together because I have all these suggestions about how to do that. So it's a push pull thing. The girls don't want to talk about any of this. They want ignorance.
Thanks Chippie. There is no question that you need to get some distance and let the dust start to settle. This is definitely over the top behavior. Whether it is possible for it to settle down into a normal relationship or not is to be determined. You don't have to figure that out now. But you have to give it a chance for things to calm down.
Obviously you can't calm him down. You have to calm yourself down when he's not being calm. That is where the detaching comes in, and why it is the #1 rule.
I like the direction you're going with your posts. It's time for you to take a journey without him. No need to make conclusions about where that journey is taking you, whether it will work with him or not, etc. It's ok to be in limbo. Just learn to live with the moment, with the good things in your life you do have, and being true to your best self. GAL. 180. Have some fun now and then. Journal and post. See your IC. Take a break from all of it now and then. Keep breathing. All good stuff.
Again, I'm sorry you're here. But you have good company. Hang in.
The time you've all taken to analyze, consider, respond to my situation is quite amazing. I really appreciate it.
Me: 48 H; 50
T: 16 M 13 years
Kids D10 D11
BD --- over and over again - intimacy and wedding ring wearing stopped in 4/16.
Hey team, I'm getting tired of all this family time and no affection. We all went tubing. We went to a party as a family. We made an offer on a house (???) I'm not sure of the thinking on that. And we live like roommates. I need a change. I'm feeling crabby. We've been doing this for awhile. I'm trying to follow the guidelines. No gifts, keeping my distance a little which is hard with all the family time and kid coordination and planning. The good thing is that on average he's been fairly pleasant today. He was pleased with the tubing on the river. Anything I can do to shake it up?
Ugh. This evening we agreed to discuss Non Violent Communication.
I read an article on NVC. Then he launched into a conversation that was a monologue and said so much I didn't know when or how to respond.
I said "Well you said a lot and let me try to see if I got it all."
Of course I didn't get it all. But what he said was regardless of whether we stay together we should try to behave in a mutually beneficial way. He said he's not happy.
We've also made an offer on a house. So doing that is very confusing to me because I don't see why we would be buying a house when we're considering separating. He said he wants to make sure that the children have a place to stay and that we each have good places to live.
Then I said, well I wouldn't think we'd be getting a four bedroom place - instead we'd get two small condos or something instead.
I said I didn't really understand our finances and it seems like we should do one thing at a time- first figure out whether we're staying together.
Then figure out our housing.
He said well "You're almost 50 you should be able to figure out your finances, what would do if we were separated." I said we'll I'd get a financial advisor.
I found myself very very triggered by the conversation. btw.
I said you aren't happy.
I'm not happy either. Then he added - I'm happy - just not with us. I said "right, me too - I'm not happy with us in our relationship but I'm happy in other areas. "
He said "I don't feel safe around you and I don't see a way to feel safe" At this point I felt really irritated at his refusal to take any responsibility for his feelings or his part ever. For his broken record tape.
For his refusal to go to marriage therapy for any reasonable length of time.
For his constant noticing of negative stuff about me. (Tonight was that I put the two different types of coffee beans into two jars instead of leaving them in the ziplock bags. He didn't want me to mix them.
I didn't mix them.
He wanted to know why I "touched them" after he told me not to. I said I put them in jars and they're not mixed at all. He made a 'whatever' expression.
Anyway, he had given me a to- do list with the children before he went out and then was disappointed that I wasn't ready to meet him when he returned - but they weren't ready for bed yet. Feel damned if I do and damned if I don't.
I felt so irritated and upset and I could feel myself losing it so I stormed out and made a comment about how it would be great if he would be committed to our marriage enough to see a counselor and try to find solutions instead of always looking for problems. When we get into these conversations I naturally point out how he could try more... but how do I do the t'ai chi action of not taking the opposite side.
How do I 180 these conversations about how he doesn't think it will work but he doesn't know... he doesn't feel safe... he's not happy... he hasn't made up his mind... etc.
I know I'm all over the place.
I wonder if anyone can help me refocus and restrategize.
I've stopped wearing any ring at all on my ring finger.
He stopped wearing his and i grew out of mine and had been wearing other odd ball rings.
Sorry Chippie, for not checking in on you for so long; I hope you're doing as well as can be expected. I know you're spinning hon; that's natural when it feels like your whole life is blowing up, especially because your spouse is going through a mid life crisis. They are so contrary. They change their minds constantly, lie constantly, can be totally irrational. When I complained that my now ex-husband was totally contrary and changed his mind constantly, sometimes two or three times in the period of less than one conversation, my DB coach Chuck compared the mind of a person experiencing a mid-life crisis to that of someone caught up in raging rapids in a tiny rubber raft. It was hard for him to think clearly and concentrate, because his thoughts were racing out of control.
Last fall he was on some cocktail of meds that made him my dreamboat but also he slept all the time. lol ....... would it be helpful if I asked him what meds he's on now? He might get suspicious... but I might be able to find out.
By dreamboat, I guess you mean you had a great sexual relationship fueled by the medication? On the one hand, I think a wife SHOULD know what medications her husband is on, but on the other hand, your husband does not consider you a married couple, and will probably get angry and accuse you of being nosy if you ask him. I just asked because, like I mentioned, the side effects of both testosterone and thyroid replacement hormone therapy include emotional instability and might account for his mood swings. If he is on either of these, he needs to have his blood levels checked by his doctor. But mid-life crisis also causes mood swings, so who knows what is causing your husband's!
How do I 180 these conversations about how he doesn't think it will work but he doesn't know... he doesn't feel safe... he's not happy... he hasn't made up his mind... etc.
It's like having an extremely controlling roommate. I don't want a roommate. I want a sex life and a plan to grow old with someone who is committed. I'm tweaking my behavior to get closer to 180 but I feel like I'm still at his beck and call. He certainly has me wrapped around his finger. If he wanted to suddenly be back with me I'd go for it.
Well, that's the thing. We LBSs don't want roommates, we want loving husbands and wives. Unfortunately, our spouses do not feel the same. When I first joined this forum, someone (Cadet or URWorthy maybe) used to say that our marriages were over at bomb drop, we just did not know it yet. It totally p!ssed me off at the time; I was NOT ready to hear and accept that. But learned that it is true. Our spouses do not want to be married to us any longer at that point. They may be ambivalent, and waver back and forth, keeping us on the hook and not really letting us go completely, but in reality, they are done. It used to be quoted that a mid-life crisis lasts 3 to 5 years on average, but I think the current belief is 3 to 7 years, up to 10 years, or even longer.
My ex has been depressed for the past 20 years, but really whacked out on me and started exhibiting MLC traits in 2007, and gave me the "I love you but am not in love with you" speech on December 26, 2009. And still is in a full blown crisis, poor man. So it's been what, 6 to 9 years? I truly believed that one day he would wake up and realize all of the damage he did to our family, and that I was his steadfast loving wife, that I was worth 100 of his Russian Tramps, and that he would really love me again. As his wife. Has not happened, and I don't want it to happen now, being perfectly happy as a single woman who has worked hard to recognize and try to fix all the crappy co-dependent stuff about me that contributed to the demise of my marriage.
That's all you can do, Chipster. To work on yourself at this point, and be true to yourself and protect yourself and your girls. You cannot change your husband, but you can pray that he wakes up and sees your changes are real (are they??), and loves you again. When he says all that stupid stuff, that he is not sure whether it will work out and does not feel safe and is not happy, all you can do is validate his feelings. To let him know that you recognize how he feels, but not necessarily to take responsibility for his feelings because his feelings are often irrational, but you don't want to tell him that!
I'm not sure if you would consider this a 180, but maybe it is since you say you come back at him so strongly sometimes, and do stuff like pouring water on his bed (!!). Maybe validating his feelings and then shutting up would be a 180!
If someone asked you if you received a package that they sent you, and you answered just, yes, I got it, that would not mean that you like the contents. You are letting your husband know that you "got it" but not that you like or take responsibility for "it."
Like I told you, I used "I'm sorry you feel like that" over and over, but since you don't want to say that, maybe just try saying something that reiterates and confirms his feelings. "You seem to be saying you feel angry... ambivalent.... confused.... hurt.... disrespected... sad... betrayed." And when he says something nasty to you, you could tell him "that made me feel confused... disrespected... hurt" etc.
I still like "I'm sorry you feel like that" best because it sums up MY feelings perfectly
Here's the takeaway - I DO HAVE A PART - I always knew I had a part but I'm seeing now that my part isn't the part I thought.
I didn't make him do the things he did or vice versa. But my part is being overly dependent on him and his opinion. Being a people pleaser. Focusing on myself is a very good thing for me to work on. Another part I can own is my self pity and the trash talking of him. I simultaneously want to prove to all of you how bad he is and also find out how to get him to ACTUALLY follow me around like a puppy. I have trash talked him to his mother, sister, aunt and many of my friends. Trash talking is harsh on me - I've told them my angle of his trashy behavior, complained a lot but never left which is exhausting for everyone. I've told you some things about him to try to paint a story - it looks worse here because I've told you all the worst stuff... mainly it's the daily irritability.. that is grating... But then again his own aunt said most people would have left a long time ago and she loves him like I do... actually at this point, more than I do.
I'm so glad that you are recognizing your part. Now forgive yourself and fix what you can. There are lots of reasons not to trash talk your husband, not the least of which is, if you reconcile your marriage, all of your friends and relatives will know all the bad stuff about him. Some DBers are of the opposite opinion. But I think trash talking is not good for your soul and heart. The best thing we can do is to forgive and move forward.
I like the direction you're going with your posts. It's time for you to take a journey without him. No need to make conclusions about where that journey is taking you, whether it will work with him or not, etc. It's ok to be in limbo. Just learn to live with the moment, with the good things in your life you do have, and being true to your best self. GAL. 180. Have some fun now and then. Journal and post. See your IC. Take a break from all of it now and then. Keep breathing. All good stuff.
Ugh I hate writing because I think it makes it clear that I should leave. But I'm not sure. I really am very confused.
I agree with Zues126. You're doing well. You probably cannot see it, but we can!
Only you can decide if and when you should end your marriage hon. It's hard because you want your old life and your old husband back. Give it time, like Zues says. Tell us what fun things you did for yourself and your kids this weekend. Any art projects? Was the offer you guys put on that house accepted? I sure hope not!
Thank you Linda!
So he went on vacation with our daughters on a road trip.
I have to work so I couldn't go.
I offered to meet them for a weekend and he said no. On the day before he left he said that there was going to be a gal he didn't know well at the campground.
They went to college together and had mutual friends that he was visiting.
Well it turns out there were not mutual friends that they were visiting and she wasn't just at the campground she was at the same campsite with him.
They spent all day together with her two kids and our two kids and over night at this place.
He drove her car and he filled her car with gas with our money.
He called me and told me he was excited about working on this house that we just went into contract on and he wanted me to know that he was excited to do this with me but he also needs to have his space and not have me get so jealous.
I said OK But he said all this before I found out that there wasn't any other couple and they were sharing the camp site, etc.
Who does all that with someone they don't know well?
And my part was that I friended her on facebook and then asked my 10 year old daughter who had me on speaker phone if they met the other couple...
I was wondering why I was only seeing this womans' kids and this woman in the car when my daughter facetimed me.
I'm not sure if this makes sense the way I'm telling it out of order.
So it started to feel good with us for a split second and then he either lied to me or just very much mislead me about his plans.
He grabbed the phone from my daughter and said he was driving and I had no right to interrogate our daughter who clearing didn't even want to talk with me and I was creepy and sick and needed help.
So I get that my behavior wasn't perfect but then again he's demanding trust and then deliberately misleading me about his plans.
I'm quite positive he'd be very unhappy for me to go on a camping trip in a beautiful place with a dad and his kids and our kids and I said he was just at the campground (not a shared site.)
It was very hurtful to me.
And after hanging up my daughters phone he texted me how awful I was and just as he was getting hopeful about us working out and that if I didn't apologize for my behavior he would prefer to separate.
I thought about trying to explain how hurtful he was being to not tell me he had a plan to go with a single woman on a camping trip!
I keep slipping I thinking maybe it's ok but no, it's not.
But logic and talk never have worked with him so I just didn't respond.
He wrote a bunch more texts saying the same thing. Then nothing until tonight.
He posted all these beautiful photos of the location of their campsite - I've never seen a more magical sight - never camped somewhere like that with him - Then tonight a bunch of hours later with me only calling our daughters but not him.
He texts several other paranoid things he's mad at me for..
I start to think that in fact he does want to repair the relationshp but doesn't want to get blamed for the massively (in my opinion) wrong choice to hide the true nature of this camping trip from me.
I have continued to ignore his texts.
I can't be with someone AND sign off on their deception.
He wants his cake and to eat it too.
They may not have been sexually intimate but they were surely emotionally intimate.
Earlier in the day he promised not to have sex with anyone without discussing it with me first.
I assumed that meant kissing too but clearly he's being very careful with his words so I can think one thing but he didn't actually say that one thing.
In the texts tonight he asks me if I really want to blow up our relationship by talking to his aunt.
I guess since I always try to explain the error of my and his ways - not talking at all and taking no bait is a 180. He clearly wants to engage me in an argument so he can't out talk me.
I'm not sure what to do about being in contract on a house together but maybe that will still be better than renting to have bought one house?
I have no idea.
The mortgage is much smaller than rent.
I am reading the Life Changing Magic of Tidying Up the japanese art of decluttering.
It's helping me to get rid of everything with holes and demand only the best of the best of my stuff remain because I deserve only the best.
If I AM going to leave him I need that attitude.
Though truly that isn't what I want but going the way I've been going has shown him he can get away with murder and just control me while he acts badly and he can blame me for his feeling bad when he does something stupid.
If there's a way to save the marriage that also makes the marriage a good marriage to begin with then I'm in otherwise I need to wise up and strengthen up and get out of dodge.
Easier said than done with kids etc.
Any thoughts?
oh one more thing. I told him they didn't have to facetime me in car later and when they did, I asked to talk with him and in front of that gal he says he's busy pumping gas (in her minivan) and then says he's busy driving and he'll talk to me tomorrow. He does this in front of her so that made me feel bad. Well he probably didn't do anything with her but he lied to me and then blamed me for asking my daughter where the other couple was. Huh. Projection.
Hi chippie
I am sorry you are going through this. I really am.
My best advise to you is this... You can love your husband, but love yourself more. Talk to a lawyer. Only do what is in your best interest to do. Stop walking on egg shells.
I really, really believe that there is little you can do or say once your marriage gets to this point. Your dammed if you do and dammed if you don't. He is going to twist everything you do and say to justify actions that will only serve him anyway. It is impossible to debate or find logic to his irrationality. don't waste your time trying. Just keep some pride, see a lawyer do what's best for you.
If they truly want to come back, then they will make it happen irregardless of your validation techniques. If they don't truly want to be with you then your marriage has absolutely no chance of succeeding.
We are not light houses to be s... All over. We are people with feelings that deserve respect from our spouses. And they will only treat us, the way we allow them to treat us. And quite frankly,many do you want someone in your life that is capable of treating people that way anyhow?
Be careful and protect yourself. Dont let him bait. You don't have to live like this. Take your life back from him.
I have an appointment with a lawyer on Friday. I don't know what to say or ask...
I did not respond to any of his mean texts this week and that drew him in because I never do that.
We are in contract on a house and the inspection contingency ends thursday. And tonight he emails me this: Chippie*, if you're able we need to have a practical conversation about housing, 3rd Ave and Drexel.
We should also talk more about our relationship, as long as that can be done without too much struggle.
I would like to be able to plan and work things out with you if you're able, I realize you may not be.
Let me know. We should talk tonight.
So I prepare to talk about the relationship first and depending on how that went talk about the housing. And he launched into housing talk after a warm intro. Then he starts telling me chores I need to do and gets dictatorial. I say I want to clear the air on the relationship first. He says "You bushwacked me" And so I say well then let me read one small sentence. He says fine I'll grit my teeth and bear it. I say oh nevermind. Forget it. I hang up. Then we go in a loop with me asking when we can talk about the relationship and he saying I had all last week. I keep asking about the future chances to talk not the past. And then he refuses and says forget it let's cancel the home purchase. SEnd them an email tomorrow. I say can't we talk about this. He says he has to go watch a movie with our kids. So he could spend all day talking with a gal he claims to hardly know but refuses to talk with me for more than ten minutes and zero time about the relationship.
Wow, now I'm just as crazy as I thought he was. I've become a raving lunatic again. I just thought he had come around and actually cared to work it out like he said but it lasted all of two minutes. You're right, take care of myself. He thinks we should still get the house even if we split but he wanted me to write him and say to do that... or something.. Alright I guess I need rest. First step in taking care of myself.,....more tomorrow.
We should also talk more about our relationship, as long as that can be done without too much struggle.
STOP having relationship talks - asking for them - wanting them - it will all backfire and not bring the results you are looking for.
So what do I do when he is out camping with my kids and a single mom and her kids and I've been prevented from going on vacation with them. Do I back out of the contract to buy a house with him? Do I leave? I asked him only for him to do unto me as he would have me do unto him - golden rule and he said take care of your own behavior. I already know he doesn't take care of his. I said Sorry, I can't live that way. So he said OK we break up then. I said OK. I have to go back to work now. And I was looking for some financial info and found an email from him in 2013 talking about finances and divorce and buying a property. I said "Stop this bullshit of talking about divorce and an investment property in the same email. I won't entertain these talks." He's gotten much worse in 3 years. He seems like a lunatic to me. Then I went to a comedy show tonight an - an open mic , folks were so depraved. I thought wow I thought my husband was messed up but these folks sound so depressing and awful. I'm 48 how could I ever date again. Maybe I should just go along to get along. Tomorrow is the inspection expiration date and I have no idea whether to pull out of the sale. He's also making threats to get his way but he now has his own room and does even more hurtful stuff than he used to do so many I should run fast and embrace being a single woman.
Help!
I would back out. Clear up your relationship before jumping into a financial entanglement. Do you love him? You can date again at 48. You'll be even better at it this time around. Don't be held back by fear -- only by love.
Disagree with ForGump. Emotions are not a good compass to steer through these waters, they are too haywire. Thoughts are not a good compass, they are rationalizations from emotions.
Resist the urge to DO something, particularly if it is to force a change or impact your H. Instead let him go on his journey, believe none of what he says and half of what he does. Did you ever read my card game in my original post? He is at his worst right now. No more R talks as was said.
Instead continue on your journey. Don't predict the future. Focus on the present. This is so important. Hard, we want to know where we are going, when we are going to get where we want. We want what we want when we want it. My D forced me to learn the skills of being appreciative in the moment for what I have, and not needing to hoard security and control over what I couldn't. I had always been told that, but had never really gotten it, but this is a MUST.
I wouldn't buy a house with him if I were you. You need to set some boundaries. Not to control him, or force a change. But to protect yourself from what he might do in the future. Give those some thought, it doesn't have to be done today. Maybe post about it.
Have you read DB/DR?
What are you doing to detach?
What are you doing to GAL?
What are you doing to 180?
What are your DB goals for you?
Let's hear as much talk about these things as about your H. The more you focus on your journey, your growth, your opportunities, your behavior, things you can control, and things you can enjoy in this moment today...the better you'll feel and the better you'll be able to position yourself to make healthy decisions as time marches on.
Oh Chippie.....
So sorry you are going thru this. Your mind must be spinning.
Keep your appointment with the lawyer on Friday. Make a list of talking points so you are not all over the map. Tell the lawyer the facts, such as
- that you have two young daughters, and that your husband makes more money than you do
- that your husband is acting irrationally and abusively at time, throwing things at you including a computer and locked you out of the house, and makes derogatory untrue statements in front of the girls. Tell the lawyer the abusive things that YOU did to your husband too
- that your husband is having an emotional, and perhaps a physical, affair with the woman he went camping with
- that he wants to purchase a house together and made an offer on one
- he keeps saying that he has not made up his mind about whether you two should stay together or divorce
- that you also do not know whether you want to get divorced or not
And anything else you can think of. Tell the lawyer that you want to know what your rights are, and how to protect yourself and your girls. Ask the lawyer if it is wise to sign a contract on a house at this time. He or she will tell you about the divorce laws in your state (each state is a little different).
For what it's worth, I agree with ForGump, and would back out of the house contract too. But since you have an appointment with a lawyer tomorrow anyway, why not take advantage of that and get some professional advice.
Oh, and about not being able date-able at age 48 - I got divorced after 38 years of marriage, at age 61. I am now almost 64, and have been seeing a nice man who treats me like a queen for the past 2 years. So you can stop worrying about being too old for dating LOL
I also agree...do not sign any documents, i.e., contract on a house at this time. I would seriously think about getting my own place and if he wants to date you, that would be up to you, but under no circumstances would I sign nything "jointly" w/your h at this time.
Do not have any more relationship talks w/him. It's not working and the more you have them, the more frustrated both of you get. Table those discussions for now. Keep the conversations on the children and finances, etc., i.e., keep to neutral subjects.
As for dating, age is just a number. Many of us have divorced and are dating again and it might just surprise you...but the second time around, many of the relationships are even better...so please don't worry about your age when it comes to dating.
Good luck tomorrow!
Go see the lawyer, address all of your concerns, i.e., RosaLinda has given you some good talking points, but you can add additional points to it.
OK I've skimmed through the book and probably need to start over since I've lost my place.
I've started decluttering with the mantra- only the best for me and trusting that I don't need to hold onto something until I get a replacement but that after I get rid of old stuff I'll have more room for the new replacements.
I've been going out with friends - as always.
I've been inquiring about taking an improv class.
I go to alanon.
I'm trying to call our children but not him while they're on the trip.
I had a weird epiphany of positivity. All jealousy fell away (for a few hours) and I decided that I would try to pretend even if I didn't feel it. I told him I didn't care what gals he was hanging out with. I believed him that he wasn't doing anything and that he hid it from me because he was afraid of how jealous and pissed I would get. OK I did talk about the relationship a bit. I told him I was getting hung up on his presentation (obnoxious presentation) but the real facts were what mattered more. And that I didn't need him to be there with me in the same frame of mind - we could take turns and that I'm in a bubble of positivity but he didn't need to be. He said it sounded good and we should try to make it work a bit. We decided to get the house. I think I got too optimistic because he's not calling me except to set me up to talk to the girls or if he needs me to do something. I also told him that I needed to stop wanting his reaction to be a certain way - I needed to care about my own reaction to his - and not have one. Own my own decision and not hold on to resentments.
I'm trying to get started on an art project.
I am doing the thing he asked me to do which is going to measure the house that we're in contract on. It seems its good to buy a fixer upper because we could easily break it into two places and one rent would help pay the mortgage on the other.
I made sure to get a hair cut, color my hair. I got a house keeper for three hours for each weekend that they're gone for super cheap. $12/hr - so $36 and she spruces up the whole place. I got a massage. I got the car washed. Going to work. Watch more tv and went on the internet more than I would have liked... I'm weaning myself off of asking my daughters questions that might accidentally reveal what he's doing. I'm trying to ask things that couldn't possibly reveal stuff so there's no way he'd think I was checking on him. ... I am beginning to hide my posts so he doesn't see them on facebook so he can't keep an eye on me. ... ok I'm fading . more soon.
All awesome insights. I'm glad you're getting support in real life from these groups and your family.
I would really recommend no more R talks. You are 1000% better off showing with behavior versus telling with words. 1000% better.
When you tell him with words it seems contradictory. You are saying the words "I don't need a reaction from you", but if you don't, then why are you telling him these words? If you didn't want a reaction from him you wouldn't tell him. Why not just avoid reacting to his behavior, then little by little he'll see the changes...or he won't, or he won't care, or whatever. Again, not your issue.
When you tell WAS your goals and game plans it will look bad when you stumble (you said you weren't going to react...) and even when you do things better they will think it's manipulative (you're just acting this way to get me to...).
Real change has to be for you. Even if WAS doesn't notice, care, turn back, or do his part, these have to be things you're doing for you.
Now, if you're just lonely for support and conversation then you need to do more GAL. Post here more often. Talk with friends from your group that want to listen. But WAS can't be your confidant right now. He has his own journey to make without you, and talking about your journey or how you view things, or what you're working on, it will drive him further away. His behavior is saying he needs space, if you crowd him he'll need to retreat. WAS should be initiating 90%+ of all R conversation, maybe even 100%. And when he does your role should be to be silent and validate.
My DB coach said "This isn't the model for a future potential M, that you bury your needs and silence your voice...but you don't have an M right now and this isn't the time and place."
Detach. 180. GAL. And follow those rules. You are on the right road, time to walk it on your own. Not easy with him around. But it can be done. Keep posting!
Chippie
A couple of posters have asked me to check in on you and read your thread.
All of the posters here a small number have exposure to serious abusive behavioural issues. Sometimes that includes in laws in dysfunctional families too.
I won't label your WH, but there are several very serious flags in his behaviour which concern me greatly, so I think it might be time to help you educate yourself on those and come to your own conclusions.
There is a big difference between abusive behaviour (which can arise as a result of situations or as a reaction) and have systemic abusive issues.
The former can be resolved in time and the later likely will continue beyond the R.
Indeed we play a role in being abused, I do not vilify the target of abuse here just accept that we make our choice of partners and sometimes it requires great skill to navigate these tricky waters in S and D an abuser.
Next, yes Zues has a point too, sometimes it's too easy to label damaged Rs as abusive ones, when that may not be so. Victim mentality can be easy solution.
This sitch you find yourself in is likely exceptional. There are several posters here now and from the past who sitches in my opinion involve severe abusive behaviour. In no order they are Greengrass, Schermann, Vanilla (me), Zelda, Mustardseed and Ancaire.
There are a couple more including Rosalinda who has posted to you and knows her stuff that acknowledge abuse. The list includes men and women, this isn't exclusively a female domains.
Zelda and I put together a couple of threads on abuse which I am going to provide a link. I am here to indicate to you where you can get some sense on your sitch and in my opinion this is one of the toughest journeys you are about to face.
You may be resisting your own nature on bonding with your abuser, by compartmentalising his actions there will be times when you will drawn back in, only for the sweet cycle of abuse to start over and each cycle is worse.
The rage of systematic abusers when foiled is quite astonishing. My journey is there for you to read if you sown choose, but know tthis is in your life for a reason and great healing and extraordinary post traumatic growth can arise. Dry drunks still have all of the issues of compulsion plus the anger because they may not have their self medication drug of choice (booze). The issues are still there. Please see protection of yourself and your safety as paramount and protecting it in whatever way is needed is nothing you must apologise for. It's the best thing you could have done, do not hesitate to do so again.
This is what I know from experience:
Abuse is hard to deal with when you see great things about your abuser and sometimes that's all you can see, other times it can be all bad and others balanced
Breaking away requires a series of spell breaks
Keep a detailed abuse diary and if necessary record the abuse
Save everything safely away
Have at least one safe person in real life who will support you
You will tread water and that may be the best you can do for a long time
Your safety (and your children) comes first last and in the middle
List here the abuse history, Zelda found this useful as did I, putting it writing makes it tangible and somehow speLL breaks
Resolve never to be abused again by anyone my mantra was I will not be abused
I had specialist help from the freedom program available online to recognise abuse, there are charities. Educate yourself and don't stop learningredients.
Twelve steps is amazing, for me Gamanon but there is a core in all of these programs. Twelve steps particularly steps4 and 5 are so powerful in connecting to your higher power
--------------------------------
Please post to my thread and know you are with those here who have traversed some of these waters.
Systemic Abuse is not your fault, you did cause it, you can't control it and you cant cure it. It's a waste to MC, mediate or placate an abuser. Setting boundaries is going to make the reaction worse too, as these get tested. If you need to do so validate the abuser until you can get away. These are my thoughts.
NVC is about two determined individuals wanting to get their communication right, an abuser abuses because they like it and abuse isn't about anger but control. NVC is likelying to trigger abuse. I tried it amoung every tactic I could think of.
Your path may well be to cease engagement with your abuser and a possibility is grey rock.
Under no circumstances allow yourself to be triggered, I had my screaming banshee phase and it created great damage in me as a reactive abuse mechanism. Some abusers can use that phase against you.
Rosalinda is a powerful poster and I admire her very much. Greengrass called my sitch for me as abusive. And truly it is and sadly has deteriorated beyond anything I ever thought. So Chippie expect the worst, smears, triangulation, abuse tactics, sweet talk, everything under the sun. You won't be disappointed.
Keep posting, be authentic and the wonderful DB posters here will give you support. I honestly don't think I would be through my D without the amazing travellers on my journey.
V
Abuse thread Vanilla and Zelda
ugh. Reading this is like a rock in my stomache. His thing is predominantly emotionally and verbally abusive except for the one time I mocked him that it escalated to him breaking the door and kicking me out. I've gotten very angry as well. And you're right not to let myself get triggered. I think I need to print out and hang up the 180 list. NVC did not work for him at all!
It's clear he doesn't want to leave me but he's very angry with me. I think I'm a mirror for his own behavior which is projected on me combined with any bad behavior of my own.
I'm going to practice leaving the room any time I feel reactive.
I always tell everyone what's going on which is sort of bad because I need to stick to a few select people. Although I do wallow in the victim role quite often I can clearly see that he is an abuser with or without my own codependant behavior. I'm lucky to be in a 12 step program (he is too). and to have this online forum. There's a lot of overlap in the tenets of the program and the 180 - the detach with love mantra. Keep the focus on myself etc.
Chippie
Please don't over think ok?
Let the thoughts marinade and unfold.
You have the gift of time and 12 steps. You no longer are alone.
Rest and cry if you must.
Once you know there is no unknowing.
I will hang around for you.
V
Chippie,
Did you meet w/your lawyer yesterday? What did he advise you to do with respect to purchasing a home w/your h at the present time?
Don't over think? bwa ha ha ha!!! I'm 48 it's very hard for me not to over think stuff. I'll do my best. I'm going out with the gals to an art show with popsicles. We moved a year ago and this has been the easiest move yet. I've met so many fun people.
Vanilla thank you.
Job,
The deadline for the inspection period was thursday. We decided to go ahead with it. He is very good at fixing things up and having a project focuses him in a good way. I know it's kind of absurd. I cancelled the attorney for Friday because I needed to orient and re-write my list of questions due to changing circumstances. I've talked to them and a few others over the phone.
We own another home in LA that I bought first and we did a refi on. If we divorce we'd have two homes to sell. The area is so tough on renters. Mortgages are 1K less a month than rentals and the place would be easy to divide into two units to lower costs so I felt like either way it could work. I know there's a lot of rationalizing and denying but we have been together for 16 years at this point we'd both prefer it could work out. He wants it to work out. What he's doing about that - I don't know but with 180 it doesn't matter - I'm doing my own thing. I'm almost over my jealousies. I have no reason to believe he has ever cheated on me so I can't keep being suspicious forever. That's part of what has poisoned stuff for us. (that's my part) Anyway, more will be revealed. Thank you all for looking in on me.
Trying to focus on myself and GAL. Those muscles are half out of practice. I can do it on the one hand in terms of socializing and activities but my brain is a broken record. A friend wrote me that when he dropped off our girls he was flirty as I said he would be. I asked for specifics and it was the stuff that he does in front of me that has annoyed me in the past. He'll be pissed at me if a guy is flirty with me but then HE flirts with people and I'm possessive if I mention anything. When I asked for specifics she wrote:
"Hugs that lingered too long. Hand on the small of my back. When they left "you're dimples are amazing, they light up the room when you smile."" This is the kind of thing that I'm trying to not care about. But since I wasn't there it seems like he was hoping she was desperate since she and her husband split up a bit back. His insecurity and looking for closeness with women kind of grosses me out. At the moment pictures of him disgust me and yet I'm feeling jealous. What's up with that? Now the kids are with my Mom and he's certainly meeting up with some women tonight or tomorrow. He promised to let me know before having sex with anyone but I wonder how he even classifies that. My brain doesn't do well in the in-between. Can you advise on how to focus my thoughts on what is happening with us? Should I pretend we'd definitely splitting up? Maybe I just want him because he doesn't want me? And for the outward trappings of family life and children together. Walking the line is difficult for me. Do I pretend he doesn't live here and focus on the girls? They return on Thursday. I don't know how far I should take it for us to stay together for the kids. I know that I want to be with someone who wants to be with me - clearly so - and I'm willing to be in a temporary situation but how long of temporary is even acceptable? I'm 48 - I DO want to be in a relationship with someone and I think that it will be harder at this age. One thing in my favor is that I'm slim and have amazing joie de vivre, creativity, adventurousness, I'm pretty and - jeez - can I just write myself an online dating ad right now?
Honey
Listen the guys you liked at 22, 24, 32 and 40 are still there at 46, 50, 60 and gradio us 75.
They get older too you know.
V
Hi -- I have been making progress on my own part however he's back and spinning out and sending me negative texts and emails which I don't respond to.
After three days of several negative texts/comments a day and blaming me for things I am not responsible -(I took responsibility for not getting the girls moving fast enough on my morning and took his morning today)
He wrote me more mean stuff today...
Finally I wrote this with the help of my sponsor:
"I get that you're really having a rough time right now. I do want to partner with you through this rough patch. When I am being accused and blamed I do not respond well, I shut down and stop responding. I can understand how it would seem like I don't care. But it is quite the opposite. It is the ONLY position left for me to take.
I'm happy to talk about ways we can be a team on finances, health and household organization, when we can do so in a positive manner.
I'm interested to give blood with you next time and I'd be interested to attend your endocrinologist appointment. I could listen and take notes for you if that would feel supportive and helpful. "
He wrote back this:
"The only rough time I am having is with you, and contrary to what you write you are not in anyway making it easy. Not sure if you're deluded or believe what you're writing but it doesn't matter at this point. You are unfortunately the main thing making my life unpleasant. I don't even mind my illness and I spent the day doing bureaucratic health care busy work on it. The problem I'm unhappy with whenever I'm around it is our relationship and it is not improving.
I absolutely understand the part you wrote about your not being able to act any other way than the way you are. That's fine for you to do but I can't live with you any more, it's too unpleasant, it [censored] all the air out of the room for me to be around your behavior.
This is very challenging to deal with. Let's get through as much as we can at 9. We have a lot of decisions to make together hopefully, in order to get through this unpleasantness. "
He keeps getting upset and saying we need to split up. That's fine but he never follows through he just backs off again. Saying I suck the air out of the room when I'm simply trying to avoid him is him describing himself. I could say "I know you are but what am I?" to everything he says if it wasn't so immature.
I don't want to talk to him if he's going to say un-civil things like that. I want him to cc someone he trusts because it's unacceptable for him to write or say so much mean stuff all the time.
How can I phrase it?
He wants to talk at 9pm tonight and I don't want to be around him.
OK Well I realized that I didn't want to be around him because I was afraid of the discomfort and that I had nothing to be afraid of because the worst isn't that bad - the breaking up or the chatising. We talked in much the same way until I got so agitated that I started to say things to hurt his feelings such as "my friend never wants to be around you again because of the way you behaved" and "you want an unconventional marriage because you're insecure and need women fawning over you but I don't, I want a conventional marriage so that's that." and when he told me I should prove to him how he could trust me I said - no I can't prove anything to you. And when I said I was too agitated was tired of all the fingers pointing at me and none at him and I didn't want to talk anymore he said "when you're calm you can come talk to me again." and I said "No when you have a positive clear request then come talk to ME - (tired of hearing everything you don't want and nothing you DO want. Such of "be loving" but not liking any examples of that.") then he texted that he could explain his health to me (he was saying I didn't care. I was saying that when he criticizes me in the same paragraph I can't hear anything else and I shut down) and then he texted that he would go to counseling with me.... not sure what that means. And he asked me to come out so he could explain his medical condition. So finally I went out and listened and took notes and asked questions. Then he asked if I wanted to watch tv. I said OK and we watched tv and then went to our own rooms. I guess it's partly that I'm afraid to be around him when he's critical and afraid I'll lose my temper in return. It's all such a power struggle. He didn't budge until I walked away and told HIM to come to ME when he had some positive clear constructive ideas. I'm still figuring out what my 180 is. I thought it was creating my own life away from him but I really need to focus on the children a lot and less on my own thing. Today my daughter asked me to read my own book next to her and I did.
The thing is are these lies or does your WH believe this stuff? I know if you read my threads you will see much of the same.sort of blaming, hating and ranting.
Real lies
So is that which is being said a knowing lie, in other words is xWH pinnocchio? Does his nose grow. If it does then it's deliberate and knowing designed to control.
1. Lies of omission: telling the truth but not the whole truth in a way designed to mislead. Such as I took the kids out today, unsaid and my mother babysat whilst I went drinking.
2. Not speaking up when asked a direct question or saying nothing much. What did you do today? Nothing much. Subtext I went gambling.
3. Making up facts that are not true. I bought my mother a new hat.
4. Embellishing the truth is a way that misleads. I fed the kids today meaning I bought sweets.
5. Insisting that a truth known to someone is a falsehood. My OW is in your head.
6. Gaslighting: an attempt to erode another's reality by denying their experience. I didn't go there, you are imagining it.
7. Acknowledging the truth but assigning motives that were never there to make yourself look betteR. You made me do it.
8. Keeping secrets for the wrong reasons. She is only a friend.
Unconscious Lies
Is lying to yourself.
1 Fantasy world- lives in fantasy land of his own choosing where he is wonderful, the world is wonderful, they are loved. And hey since you are truth darting then then you are threatening this cosy reality.
2. Believes feelings are facts. He is looking for a fact to fit his feeling. He feels angry therefore x must be true. Feelings aren't a great basis for judgement. Just because one feels sad, or angry or disgusted doesn't make what it is so. Infantile peeps operate from feelings to fact. If they feel an emotion then it is so. So moving from you are the greatest to you are the pits is allowing feelings to split behaviour.
3. No grey its all black and white. These types move from you are a goddess to you are a Harriden depending on how they feel. There is little grey area in between.
4. Find evidence that fits. They may lie and then come to believe the lie finding evidence that fits it, being validated by others. Even to the extent of viewing pictures or hearing recordings and not understanding what it means when called out in court. When real evidence shows something is a lie then it backfires because there is loss of face. This is why recordings and paperwork are so important. It's Intel to support facts. Lies are often to avoid the adverse effects, such as my wallet was stolen when really I went gambling.
5. All image that makes them happy. They maintain an image, such as I am a qualified lawyer when in actual fact I was an assistant to a court usher for 2 months.
6. They are infallible. So it is about me me me. Because really their message to themselves is 'I don't think I am good enough as I am with all my flaws.'
So why do they do it? Rant, blame and get angry?
It's because their image is all they have, there is nothing inside of them. And once you know and can not unknow, they can't bear it. They need to be and have the best. They can flash their new R on FB and not know they are being laughed at.
I used to say V don't trigger WH, if you validate are keen, walk on egg shells, subjugate, take it, work on you. Then it will be ok. And you know, it validated WH view of me and I came to believe it. The day I said I will not be abused, ranted at and lied to was the day I set boundaries. So the truth as I see it is, liars lie, waywards lie and sometimes they do it to themselves to keep their image.
So good for you my lovely one, you are starting to spell break.
There may be a shattering or a grand finale. A final storm, take great care, these are dangerous times. Once you let go then WH will be angrier than you have ever known.
I say this often, record, keep Intel and stay safe.
Healing is possible with a whole lot of hard work, but its a long way to self for empty vessels.
Just my thoughts
V
Thanks Vanilla.
I think a couple things:
1. I'm not ready to leave.
2. I'm holding on to the hope that the good stuff will overtake the bad and things will tip again.
3. I think he starts to believe his schtick, he looks for "facts" or distorts reality to support his feelings. The other night he said I wasn't loving the way I used to be. Why would I be loving? I'm not a masochist. And I still am. I know the truth, the spell is broken to that degree but not broken to the degree that I think I should leave.
4. Because I'm slightly submissive he sees what can get away with. But I'm never able to use the submissiveness to remain calm - I lose my temper. So I continue to set boundaries. When he said he wanted an unconventional relationship - I said what do you mean? He said make some suggestions. I said, why would I? I want a conventional marriage. There's a universe of unconventional. Ask for what you want in a clear, positive and concise way. I keep saying that. I keep saying I'm not a mind reader and I can't begin to do anything you want without knowing what it is so if YOU want something YOU can ask in a POSITiVE way but you need to STOP your negative texts, it's NOT OK. Then I stormed off and he then said OK I'll go to counseling with you if you want. And let me explain medical stuff to you calmly. And then he wanted to watch our show together. So it's a reprieve from the bullshit. I'm trying to remain focused on me and setting boundaries and not being afraid of his opinion.
That's the best i can do for now.
One thing is that I get jealous and saw there was a restaurant lunch on our calendar online that we can both see. He wouldn't put something inappropriate on that calendar right? And if he did and someone "steals" him away then I can just thank them.
Oh, yeah, he most certainly could and most likely did put that lunch on the calendar so that you would see it and then have a jealous meltdown over it. I hate to say this...he's not going anywhere because he's sitting right where he is and his main objective is to have you jump thru hoops.
He continues to talk about splitting up because he wants you to pretzel yourself, jump thru hoops for him and guess what...no matter what you do or say, it will never be enough for him.
Chippie, does your h ever speak highly of you to others? Does he ever speak in a positive way to you? I may be wrong, but I'm getting that he enjoys beating you down w/negativity. That's not good for your self esteem.
And...this is the husband that you want to purchse a home with at this time? I don't see where your situation is getting any better for you. I do hope that you are finding outlets to release your frustrations on. I do hope that things work out for you, but it's going to be a long time coming if the both of you aren't in therapy and trying to understand how you got to where you are today.
Please take are of yourself. I'm very concerned about your well being and safety.
I've gotten reports that he beams when he talks about what I'm doing for work right now.
The last few days he has made me cappucino in the morning with a heart shape on the top. He had stopped the hearts for awhile then stopped the morning coffees then resumed the coffee and now added the hearts back onto them...
He shared with me about his medical issues - one thing that will help his high blood pressure is drinking more water so I made a large jar with times on it and have been bringing him water and he's been expressing appreciations about that.
He said he wants to extend working on our relationship for six months though he's not hopeful. He says he's willing to go on dates and willing to do counseling if I find someone. I'm going to look into who we can see. A DB coach? There's also marriage fitness workshops through a guy named Mort Fertel who has received some acclaim.
He puts the job of finding a counselor on me, he DOES want me to jump through hoops for him.
We plan our weekends and they always include family activities for the entire weekend and family dinners every weekday night - actually all 7 days.
The house we are closing could have a small apartment into it. Rentals are very difficult and whether together or separate we need to find a way to keep costs down.
My Physical safety doesn't seem threatened. It's my sanity for sure. I will have to make my own decisions.
Is my situation alarmingly worse the the other divorces that have been "busted" through this message? I think Vanilla said that it doesn't work out after the bomb drop - but I thought the DB plan is about busting divorces. I'm interested in folks perspectives.
It came out that the lunch was with a male co-worker. He was complaining that he insisted on having lunch and then told him an idea that was originating from my co-worker. I think he won't put anything secret on there. When he was in nyc he didn't put his plans on there.... I still saw the bank expenditures and heard from relatives when they met.
I don't think he's having an affair. I don't know if he's ever cheated. It doesn't seem to matter though - what matters is how he treats me going forward.
I need to do some writing - and come up with my minimum standards for treatment and a life together and if he agrees to them great and if not then that's it. It will be things like:
100% faithfullness
Treat me the way he wants to be treated
no shaming, blaming complaining
Ask for what he wants in a clear positive way
Trade off planning mystery dates...
He's still not doing that and yet I heard him tell the girls to do that this morning. They were complaining about what they DIDN'T want for dinner. So he understands the concept!
And I need to make plans for my single life so I'm not having to do it all at once when or if the time comes. I've done a bunch of that already.
I can do and propose whatever I want. Thoughts?
I would not recommend a DB coach to your h. Why? Because this site and the coaches are here to help you and you do not want him to come to this site and start trying to find you and what you've posted. He needs to be working w/someone face to face and for now...someone that he can talk to. I would look for a solution based therapist. If he goes to counseling and it appears to be helping him, then...later on...the both of you could attend, but I recommend one on one first and see if he even goes and talks to the therapist. I would also recommend that you attend counseling/therapy (one your own, if you aren't already). You need to be working w/someone so that you can better understand why you are allowing this man to treat you the way that the does and how to get your self respect back and communicate w/him.
Talking to him doesn't appear to be helping very much. Actions speak louder than words and maybe actions are what he understands. He could very well be "tone" deaf to your conversations and tends to tune you out.
Just my two cents.
No one can predict which marriages can and will be saved. Generally, once the bomb drops, the MLCer and/or WS either don't go to counseling/therapy or they go just to please us and only pick out things here and there to justify their behavior. DB is not just about trying to save marriages...it's also a way to help you learn how to react and interact w/people (not just your spouse). It's a very good tool that anyone can use in their day to day life.
We both go to individual therapy. Usually he's unpleasant towards me on that day and a few days after.
He hears what he wants to hear. He seems to be pretty persuasive so whoever he talks to agrees with him.
The way he reports back to them they tell him that he should leave me and not put up with me any more. It's as though he's stealing my experience.
I got upset tonight - first we went to movies and I felt like the fourth wheel with the kids - he had one kid on either side - clearly he doesn't want to sit next to me - then we went out to eat after at a place I'd heard about.
He asked if I would finish parking the car and meet him and the girls at the restaurant. I said "Sure" since my auto pilot is to say yes to things.
I didn't realize the restuarant was several blocks away and it was at night though it was well lit and many people were out it wasn't a great neighborhood. I got upset once I located the restaurant and said "Don't ever do that again!"
Why do I put up with this (not specifically that but in general) it's because my ADD makes me stressed out about being able to find work on my own - because I'm far from family - and because we have young children together. We live in an expensive school district. Lawyers are expensive. I don't know how to divorce - it seems very scary and mind boggling and stressful.
Hi Chippie, how are you doing hon? You and your marriage remind me so much of myself, it just breaks my heart.
Yes, divorce is scary and expensive. It's horrible.
But sometimes we are not given a choice. What's going on with you?
Hi RosaLinda,
In some ways things are SO MUCH BETTER. Doing a search for short term solution focused therapy I found an amazing therapist - he had agreed to couples therapy and now he likes this therapist as much as I do. We have passed through the darkest days. I've practiced much of the 180s. We enjoy 5/7 of our time together. We're having sex. We're watching tv everyday and he's affectionate with me and telling me he loves me.
However when he's stressed he still becomes absurd. When we do work on the house together he is harsh. He's been saying that he's doing all the work and no one is helping. This isn't true. I worked at home on Friday in order to be nearby while he worked on the ladder. Then he starts dominating the day and saying he doesn't want to do all the work. Later I see him FB messaging a gal that he went camping with and lied to me about - he brought the kids. Most likely nothing happened (that was during the darkest days) but what kind of bullshit is that.
In my mind I think he's changed since that time and now he wants me but he's the one who's complaining about doing all the work while messaging girls.
I see I'm going on about him again.
But furthermore, I think that our therapist wants me to break up with him and that scares me so much. He is a proponent of staying together since we have kids but he keeps asking me pointed questions that make me panic.
Why do you stay in the marriage?
Why does he make you get up half the early mornings with the kids when you were the one to get up with the children in the middle of the night with the babies when it's clear mornings are hard for you?
When I asked him he thought I should break up with him and if he had cheated on me he said I'd need to ask him and he didn't want to get in the middle like that. Which is probably just a yes and yes.
Meanwhile, the therapist has me spend time doing art - just 15 minutes a week! To build ME up.
I stopped asking my husband on dates because he never asks me out. He puts work and children (not important aspects) everything, everyone, comes before me.
He also recently asked me again if he could date other women and said he was making the decision still - now the deadline is March.
This is so disrespectful because I've been very clear all along. He puts his libido above basic respect for me.
So much has changed, maybe more will change.
I'm trying to avoid sex with him but I get so tempted because I enjoy it and he's persistent and the attention feels so good and it fits with what I want.
But last night I locked my door to help my resolve. Then this morning he tried to bring me coffee with hearts in it and the door was locked. I unlocked it and accepted the coffee and felt my anger wane.
I need to focus on my work, myself and figure out what to do later. Try not to get angry - express myself from a place of hurt not anger.
I haven't checked here in a long time and I really appreciate your responses.
Chippie
Me 48 him 51
m 16
2 girl kids
Chippie
It is unhealthy and harmful to your soul to continue in a relationship in which the other person wants to date other women. (Let slone the other stuff) You deserve more.
It's that simple.
Hugs
Juju.
Hi Juju,
Yes I agree that it feels bad but how many men lust after other women? Isn't it typical in 50% of the cases that they at least desire that?
I agree that I deserve more. I told him that tonight. I deserve more - everyone does. I'm not special. It's basic stuff that people deserve.
But we have two children together, 16 years and so much together. It's tough. Well no one ever said it would be easy.
I don't expect a perfect relationship. I just insist on certain minimums. And he was saying before I shared all my feelings in therapy that he thought he might chose to be with just me. I said "You can't complain about doing all the work when you're messaging women." Then he said I was spying. I said I'm not spying but you just admitted to messaging women. I said that his camping was hurtful and he's never acknowledged that that would be hurtful nor promised that he wouldn't do it again. I really laid into him in therapy and he said he felt bushwacked and that the therapist had orchestrated that whole thing and he didn't like him anymore. I said well you bushwack me every week. I can't tell you how exhausted I am. I work full time. Me or the girls make dinner at night. We are currently painting the whole house exterior by ourselves and more for home insurance reasons. I don't know how we're going to do the second floor. : (
Hi Chippie, I'm sorry to hear about where things are at. It sounds as though your H very much has a wayward mindset just now and what he wants is for you to endorse what he'd like to do - ie: date and remain in the M.
If that's not what you want, I would be crystal clear about that boundary. For me, it was a hill I was willing to die on, and yes our M has ended, but in truth I would rather be single than live in that way again. Being with XH whilst he was secretly in touch with others was the worst thing, so I do empathise with your situation.
I guess the message from me is - he will do what he will do - that's up to him. However, you get to decide what you want to do. You have absolute control over you and what you want from your life going forwards.
Before BD, XH told me a story about a colleague of his who had multiple A's, and he and his W separated many times, before ultimately being together whilst he continued to date from time to time. XH told me this as though it was some kind of success story. Looking back, I realise he was hoping for some endorsement of an A that was ongoing at that time - ugh. Any ways, the endorsement was never forthcoming and here I am..
Xx
Are you able to update us?
V
Hi Everyone! Sorry to be absent in a room of many intelligent and concerned individuals. Yes, I'm being clear about my boundaries. Trying to discuss them without blame when I can muster the restraint but at the last relationship email exchange he said - in response to my question or statement that perhaps our core values no longer overlapped (mine being monogomy and honesty) and he said no I guess they don't. So I'm mentally preparing for a separation. I'm extremely depressed which is manifesting in zero energy, very tired, difficulty sleeping, total exhaustion much of the time. He's pretending that we're moving on with marriage but on his terms... he wants to go on dates, intitiates them like I had asked for a long time but refuses to commit to a monogomous lifestyle. He says he doesn't even have other relationships... but that's a deal breaker for me. He's stopped going to therapy with me, also a deal breaker. My therapist has advised getting ready for separation before telling him unequivocally. I thought that I had already told him that it's honesty and monogomy or the highway but he's pretending that I didn't mean it I guess? I'm not sure. I'm struggling with the energy. I wish I could be doing the 180 with more vigor. In many ways I am doing them. I guess I'm hoping when he realizes that we're done for good he'll see the error of his ways and wake up to the ridiculousness of this all. My biggest obstacle is me and my fear. My inertia. Thich Nat Hanh says we prefer the familiar suffering. This is true. The hardest thing is when I told him it was over, he was accepting. But I guess that he didn't believe it. I'm in such a fog I'm not even sure when I told him that. Now I'm retreating to my corner to get organized... to try to catch up on sleep, to get healthy, to understand the finances. It's all a mess. We just bought a house, purchased tickets to mexico in february... have xmas plans etc.... thanks for listening.
You've stated a boundary. He's testing you to see if you stick to it or put up with his behavior. Not saying he'll come running back if you stick to it, but if you don't there is ZERO chance you'll get the relationship you're looking for.
My IC told me people don't fear things, they fear emotions. In other words, they aren't worried about 'losing their job', or 'being single', per se. They fear that they won't be able to cope with the emotions they'll feel in case of those events.
The biggest thing I've learned through DBing is that I can manage through my emotions. Once I learned that no matter how tough the emotions are that come, I will be ok...well, the fear all kind of went away. It may not be pleasant, but I know I can handle what comes.
What has helped me handle my emotions is a major focus on daily appreciation.
Sorry you're down right now. I wouldn't call it depression. Depression is chronic suffering with no cause. You have a cause. You are grieving. It's a big difference. You are not broken. You are hurting for a reason, and I would think you are broken if you didn't feel pain and suffering right now.
Lower your expectations of yourself, give yourself time to grieve, but then also make a priority to focus on appreciation daily and doing a few small things towards self care, GAL, and 180s. It won't change overnight but your emotions will eventually follow your actions.
Maybe one motivator- how can you expect him to act with character when he doesn't feel like it if you can't? Be strong, act the way you know you should, and set the example of being the person you know you should be even when you don't feel like it.
Keep posting and hang in.
Thanks Zues. Today he's being polite. Saying that we can sleep in separate beds at his moms on xmas. Talking about renovations on our house. Asking me if we should make a stream go under a bridge in the front yard. I said no, we should think about re-sale value of improvements. I told him I didn't care what windows he's getting for the two story studio we just put in, just grateful that I don't have to decide and he's taking care of it. He was going to take a longer trip to nyc over xmas because I can't take as much time, he would drive with the kids and I'll fly then he said he could go for the same length even though he told the girls they'd leave as soon as school is out. I don't know why. kids were bickering, I suggested we each take one child and let them have a break from each other. He said he wasn't comfortable with that. I'll try to get a list of my assets in order so I can clearly tell him next week that we need to physically separate. I can't do this roommate thing he's talking about sometimes. It really breaks my heart. Meanwhile, guys I'm not interested in are coming out of the woodwork. It's short amusement but not enough to ease the pain. DH even insisted that I take time to make art this weekend. He never does that... the 180 would be working if not for this dumb philandering thing. How do I make THAT stop? (I don't actually think there's an answer for that.) Good reminder to GAL, appreciations, etc.
Now he wants to stay in the relationship and have online affairs or do whatever with women. Currently I don’t know if he has any online affairs and he has none in person that I know of.
If I follow the 180 and plan to leave if he doesn’t change his ways, how do I act on a day to day basis along the 180 lines – while I’m figuring out logistics. It’s complicated since we bought a house and we have children. I work 50 weeks a year and he has a professor schedule.
I’m pretty angry about his absurd wishes. Do I pretend to not be mad and tell him I want to leave in a calm and collected way?
We’re still living together, we have shared xmas plans, we have plans to go to mexico in February. Im thinking I should aim to be physically separated in three months.
I resisted his advances on Friday. I said its attached to expectations.
He’s going to LA to meet with his agent he says. In the past he would have wanted me to go with him.
Anyway, I feel like being nice is encouraging to his current behavior. How to I blend this with the 180?
Can I ask why you are the one to leave?
Would it not be better to boot him?
He is the one who wants to have his freedom, and his cake with ice cream and cream.
Can you explain about Mexicon please, it's unclear to me.
V
I agree with V. If that's not for you, you can (if you choose) lay down your own boundary firmly and calmly.
H - being M to a man who is 'dating' others isn't how I want my life to be. If that's what you want, we can't live together and I suggest you leave.
Do you want to live in an open marriage? If you do nothing, you may find that becomes the case. I've been there and it wasn't nice....
Xx
He's not dating anyone. He spends a lot of time online. We spend a lot of time together. We are having fun together right now. I told him to decide. He's stalling. I need to make the time to see a lawyer. We're also working on fixing up this house together and going to mexico in february. I'm stalling too because he agreed I can get breast augmentation. So I want to do that now before any potential split. I'm trying to focus on myself. Stop avoiding making art. Do the 180... the 180 seems to work to some extent. He's still not wearing a wedding ring even if he's inviting me on dates and bringing me coffee every morning. It's not enough. I feel torn of course. He's tall, handsome, he's so handy. He fixed the car today and saved $1k in doing so, he teaches. He directs films. Some version of him is my fantasy so it's hard to let go. I wonder if I got a platonic male friend if that would make the transition easier but it would probably just complicate things. And it seems like a game.