...the start of something new??? pt5

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2681264&page=11

Originally Posted By: cbtdad

"it's encouraging to me that you do want to discuss these things. However it's clear that both of our emotions are running really high. I think it would be best that if we just try and be friendly to each other and maybe try to have these talks with a professional like a marriage counselor"

I'm favoring this quite a bit. She texted me and said she's not at home, and she'll be home tomorrow to spend the day with the animals... It feels she's shying away from wanting to talk now, but I can't read her mind. I'm going to think through things on the ride home, and see if she reaches back in regards to talking while I'm heading home from work, and if not, I'll probably just text her something about the emotions and her consideration of 'talking' in MC with a different counselor.

So she texted me to let her know when I'm home, and I texted her back about 2 hours ago saying I was home. She went dark, and got nothing until just now. She said "we should be able to talk about things in a civil manner, I guess we just need to talk about our financials and the email you sent me (it was an email saying I'm almost finished with the financial discovery paperwork and that I'd be sending it in shortly).

I'm not sure why she brought civility, I'm sure she's drinking at a friends house or something and not clear on what she's saying. In our earlier texts, it was pretty clear she wanted to talk about "us", but obviously she's backtracked a bit on that, only re-enforcing my thoughts on her in the roller coaster phase still, not ready to really try and understand anything yet...

I said "Sure, we can talk about that if you want, I'm free Monday night, and I plan on dropping the paperwork off first thing Tuesday morning." And I haven't heard back... like I said, she's drinking, so it's unlikely I'll hear from her at all tonight, and that's fine by me. I have other stuff going on to consume my time than worrying about talking to her about finances.

I reread some of the DR book as well as some other starter material, and even though I feel W is jumping the gun on filing out of confusion and anger (and feeling trapped), I realize that is not a battle I can have influence on.

Stepping back, and revisiting my goals from the DR tasks, its shown a little more light on what I need to be working on. Small wins are key. I've been clouded by my "grand goal" and not paying enough attention on the stuff I should be. Enough of those small wins, will eventually get me somewhere better, and I need to get a grip on where I am right now.

My W is lost and asking for a lot, but I know I can't give in to all she wants right now... Understanding, requests, etc. I feel we are sliding back and forth on the pursuit / distance right now, and I'm taking every little text/communication too heavily. When W starts talking about feelings, weirdness, wants, etc, I'm taking it too literally and immediately striking back conversation. I need to stop that, because whenever I do, I'm seeing a pattern of, once I continue conversation, she eventually withdraws and pulls away and it's creating a roller coaster with my on thoughts and focus.

I realize now, I haven't "won" her pursuit yet, she's only sending out feelers every so often to make sure I'm still here, and once I show/tell her I am here, she backs off again. I need to be more distant, not so available, and this isn't going to happen in a few days time like my optimism wants it to. The "ticking time bomb" in the back of my head needs to be silenced, and I need to refocus on my "one battle at a time" mindset.

I'm back home in the master BR, even tho she's not in there with me, that was a start. My next big goal is to regain her pursuit of me, which involves more focus on detaching. I can't get over excited when she strikes up casual conversation over text, etc. Stay focused.

Betterm,

I think your goal of getting her to persue you is the wrong tactic. Detaching is exactly the opposite. You might need to grieve the loss of her and then find the strength to chart a new course. Only when your ship has sailed and you're free is when your WW would see the want to come back.

Betterm,

Listen to trumpet. She may never pursue you. Something im coming to grips with recently. DB-ing has gradually gone from trying to show her what a great H i am and now i just want to do things for me cause it hurts to do things, have expectations for her to notice then get continueously dashed.

Worse still assume you are getting a reaction then again find out it meant nothing or you were projecting.

Take a break, do things for you. Just you. What does Betterm want to do if he didnt care what anyone else thought?

So, things got a little bit off track this morning... I spent the night at my brothers without her knowing anything last night, and I thought she was staying at her parents. Got home this morning around 730am and found W sleeping in the master bedroom. I was meeting some friends to trail ride and just needed to shower before, so I did.

When I got out she was awake, and asked if we could talk about Financials (spending limits, deposits, etc). I told her I didn' think we should talk about anything related to the divorce and that she could contact my attorney on Tuesday morning if she wanted to. And she replied with "I never told my attorney I wanted to file, and I plan on calling him tomorrow to make sure he doesn't, as there seems to be some confusion over my intention of the last appointment."

I am never one to show emotion, always hold back and am the one who doesn't cry when she's pouring out her emotions... Well, this time was different, and I broke down right in front of her. I tried to leave the situation but she kept asking me to come back into the room and that "it is okay".... I would regroup, and go back to talk, and it would repeat. I didn't beg, convince, or anything of that matter, I didn't talk to her about why I wanted to stay married, and actually just reassured her that she wasn't making the "wrong decision" if divorce is her way to happiness.

I told W that I want to remain friendly, but anything divorce related from here on out would need to be handled by our attorneys. Told her I opened new check account, and I'd continue paying all bills until this is all sorted out (she has no primary income after next week), and mentioned I would respect her decision regardless of which why she chooses (to file or not to file).

She asked "why now are you crying? Is it because of the failure of our marriage? Is it because the formality of our failure is hanging over our heads?" I responded that it wasnt because of the failure, and in several different ways, told her how its not related to our marriage, but to the hurt I've caused her through our marriage. It's probably not the 'right' 180 I was going for, but as the only time I've really cried in front of her was due to family members passing away, it certainly was a 180, ha!

Things calmed down a bit and she asked where I was going, told her I'd be out for most the day and would return later to take care of the dogs. (the impression is that I'vr assumed all house responsibilities as she is too unpredictable).

She actually responded to me by opening up herself, and telling me she'd do anything to not get a D, but it's just going to take a lot of time, and a lot of work, to rebuild our relationship, and she's just not ready to turn that corner yet and needs more time to gather herself, which is also why she doesn't want to go back to MC yet. I want to believe that, but her actions have been so flip flopped from her words, so I just don't trust it. And probably right not to trust anything she's saying at the moment.

I'm going on with my day... I thought I'd post that since it's so out of character for me to break down like that, I'm usually the stone cold rock when it comes to emotional situations (which had actually been a big problem for us in the past) ...

I know it probably didn't "help" matters, but it's kind of got me in shock that it happened at all. Not sure if it was seeing her in the master bed for the first time in months orwhat, but it happened, its over, its time to write it down, and move along with the next thing.

I know I need to focus on me, and not worry about anything my W is doing, but it's killing me NOT being able to bring up her OM... I know it's not about getting her to admit the EA is going to help anything, and could very possible "drive them closer", but right now, I'm not feeling like I give a rip.

This may be my emotions speaking right now, but I'm feeling a bit like doodler and want to confront her of OM and if she doesn't own up to it, I honestly don't want to be with someone that would be like that. I'd be happy to file the divorce for her. I saw she had an 11 minute phone conversation with OM today, right after we got off the phone with each other.

Optimistically, she could have been "calling it off", but I'm effing tired of dealing with it. I don't want to save a marriage to a woman who thinks it's okay to do that kind of bullcrap! I've been out socializing a lot late, and there are more than enough women out there to replace her, probably better than the W she's been in every way...

...forgot to finish my doodler comment, "and pack all her stuff up in boxes and throw them out on the lawn".

I'd rather call her out on it, and be happy with her response of admitting to it, or denying it. If she admits, I would be willing to forgive, but if she denies, it just makes my detachment that much easier. This "safe place" I've been trying to create for her, is out the window, and I start moving forward with the next phase of my life. I'm 34, no kids, problems in M since day one, if there is a time to call and start new, now's the time to do it. Not in 5 years after there's a baby or two and this happens all over again. I don't want to relive this cycle. I'd rather do it, and get it over with. I love her to death, but people learn to love again... And after their limerance fades and he goes back to his marriage (or maybe they stay happy forever, but I think the research shows like 3% of these affairs actually make it a lifetime happiness), and she realizes her actions, we can both be happier (or at least I can be), in the long run. 1/3 of my life has past, I'm not sure I want the other 2/3's of it with someone who thinks it's okay to do what she's doing...

hey betterm, you still need to take emotion out of your actions. What do you think is best for you? What are the principles that you stand for?

I'm taking a stand because I refuse to live a life with someone who's cheating and lying to me. If people ask me, did I fight for my M and give it my all - I'd say, I fought for myself instead, because that's the only thing that I have control over.

Originally Posted By: DDJ

hey betterm, you still need to take emotion out of your actions. What do you think is best for you? What are the principles that you stand for?

I'm taking a stand because I refuse to live a life with someone who's cheating and lying to me. If people ask me, did I fight for my M and give it my all - I'd say, I fought for myself instead, because that's the only thing that I have control over.

this is exactly what I'm thinking though. I'm not wanting to fight for my marriage, I want to fight for what's right for me in my life and who I want to spend the future of it with. The more and more I dig deep into this, the more and more I come to the point of saying "why would you want to fight to keep someone in your life that's accepting of these actions?" (not just the A, but the whole package)

I'm going to ask her... If she thinks it's okay to lie about something like this now, she'll think it's okay to lie about it 5 years from now. And I can't detach with this hanging over my head. Maybe I'm sadistic, but I want to hear the lie.

Rather not do that. It's coming from emotion. It can't come from a place of hurt and pain, i guess then it also means it can't come from a place of hurt and pain towards yourself either.

Taking the knife and stabbing it deeper into you is not going to help the healing process. You need to remove the knife, which is letting her go. I guess in coconuts case, his W has removed the knife herself, so the healing can start.

I'm struggling today with detachment, as she got me to react yesterday by ignoring me. I never thought it would get to me, but it did. I must learn, I must be consistent. Not for her, but for me.

Originally Posted By: betterm

this is exactly what I'm thinking though. I'm not wanting to fight for my marriage, I want to fight for what's right for me in my life and who I want to spend the future of it with. The more and more I dig deep into this, the more and more I come to the point of saying "why would you want to fight to keep someone in your life that's accepting of these actions?" (not just the A, but the whole package)

betterm,

In my opinion, you're very level-headed in your thinking. I continue to be amazed and surprised by many things the WW says and does. I guess I shouldn't be surprised, but just when I think that there surely couldn't be any more big surprises, she throws me for another loop. You eventually realize that you have to protect yourself and don't let the WW drag you into the abyss along with her.

I did not ask her... She came home and I was drinking coffee, reading emails in the kitchen. She could immediately tell I was irritated and asked if she could have a cup of coffee, I said, sure, I made a bunch... But I guess the tone in my voice threw her off, and she said 'nevermind, I'll pass this morning' and went upstairs to shower/get ready.

It was during this time that it struck me... something I've been saying/thinking all along. I know it happened, I know she's already lied about it once (even though the first time I brought it up was in the heat of another battle she was drilling me on), she still denied it then too. I guess I was just thinking if I brought it up now that things have cooled "a little bit", it would give her time to think, and respond differently. But I know that won't happen.

So I went upstairs and told her I just wanted to her to know that I'm not mad "at her", and apologized for being grumpy when she got home. I then went for a walk with the dogs, thought about things a bit while I let my emotions dim down. And when I got back home... (i think I blacked out or something)... I poured her a cup of coffee, took it upstairs, told her she doesn't need to ask me for a cup of coffee, ever, gave her a quick hug, smiled, told her I was heading out and said hope you have a good day today. (around this time I stopped blacking out)... we hadn't hugged in months, outside of the "assets" meetings, which was just an awkward hug/moment.

It definitely caught her off guard. She looked like deer in headlights, (not that this part matters really), but I just walked on out and heading to work, feeling about 300 times more positive about myself than I was last night, and this morning. So great! haha.

This doesn't mean I'm completely abandoning my EA exposure. Like you all said, I need to let her go, grieve, and chart a new path, maybe she's there, maybe she's not, but it'll be my path, nonetheless.

Moments of clarity are great betterm. Just be prepared you will still get the roller coaster waves of emotions through your week / day.

Find your anchor and get through it.

Thank you Natus, And I'm doing all I can - the roller coaster is still very much active... I was reading some non-DB articles from credible places, and they are quite conflicting with the views people seem to have on these forums. Ie, "to stop an affair, the first thing you do is confront it head to head", and if that doesn't work "expose it" (close friends, family, etc).

This seems like a crazy tactic to try to pull off, but I am still highly debating a confrontation with her to make myself feel better about it. Not sure if letter, or face-to-face is the way to go (letter lets her not feel backed into a corner perhaps, but couldn't just be an open-ended letter with no response). If I go face-to-face, I'd say up front that I'm willing to forgive for anything, but I know about OM and I don't care if it's physical or emotional right now, but it either comes to an end now, or the marriage comes to an end now.

I'm sure, at the time, she's going to jump all over that second option, but really, I'm already to the point where I'm accepting the marriage is on it's last days (ticking time bomb), and confronting her on this is one way to say, "I know why you're so conflicted about this marriage, and I'm understanding of why these things happen. I know I created the void you needed to fill. But this is your chance to get it off your chest and we can either move on with or without each other."

OM is married too, and while I won't be exposing immediately, nor will I threaten to expose immediately, but if she continues to deny, I do plan on exposing this to anyone with any relative concern for what happened, ie. friends, family, employer (they work together) - this is information coming from Dr. Willard Harley's book 'Surviving Affair', marriagebuilds<dot>com.

Just wanted to chime in since I recently was debating over the same decision: whether to confront WW and let her know that I knew about the Affair.

It's been a couple weeks since I confronted her. I honestly don't know if confronting her was the "right" decision from a standpoint of what gives us the best chance to reconcile, but I think it was the right decision for me from the standpoint of standing up for myself and peeling back the curtain on the activities she thought she was getting away with.

A few things I will highlight:
- I tried to get her to admit the A a couple times previously, stating strongly that I saw the signs and I knew she was having an A, highlighting things that didn't add up, etc... and she stuck to the "just friends" line religiously.
- She didn't admit to the A until I revealed I had proof. Don't expect a confession from her unless you have proof; especially since OM is married.
- On recommendation of my coach, I did not ask if she was having an affair... I simply stated that I knew she was having an affair, stayed vague about my sources but gave a couple brief details to make it clear I really did know. She ended up admitting it afterwards, with the typical script bullshit trying to downplay things, blame me for snooping, etc.
- She didn't ask if I was going to confront OM or OM's wife or tell anyone else, but if she had I was going to keep it vague and non-committal e.g. "I haven't really given that much thought"

Since confronting her, the last couple weeks have been rough. Less conversation initiated by her. Almost zero physical contact. I have been working through it, but it's been very hard to draw the line between being aloof and moving forward, without coming across as ignoring her or seeming pissed all the time. I feel like I'm getting it dialed in a bit more now, but it's tough.

I would recommend face-to-face if you confront. I had to practice what I planned to say a bunch of times so that I could deliver it while staying calm, looking her in the eyes, and not crying. Ultimately I had to remove a couple lines altogether that kept making me emotional.

I ended with something like this: "And even though I'm focused on improving myself right now, know that I will *not* be a doormat and I won't just be here in limbo forever; if at some point you decide to choose me, you will have to fight hard to win me back.

If you want to vent or talk about anything at some point, I'm willing to listen.

But this is all I have to say right now."

I'm sure things could've been handled/phrased better, and it's far too soon to know whether confronting improved or scuttled whatever chance we may have to reconcile, but just wanted to share my experiences since I went through it so recently.

Best of luck with whatever you choose, and like with everything else just make sure you're doing it for yourself as opposed to trying to get some specific reaction out of WW.

betterm,

My thoughts and feelings about approaches to divorce and reconciliation have changed a lot over the past few months. I think the approach is partially situation dependent, but I'm often amazed at how long many LBS are willing to tolerate a WS in an active affair. If you found out that the wife of a friend of yours has a boyfriend (EA or PA) what would you recommend to the friend?

Unless there is truly bad behavior (abuse etc.) on the part of the LBS, then I lean heavily toward the boxes and tape (B+T) approach. If I'd had the balls to do B+T much earlier in the process I think I'd have had a better chance at reconciliation.

Originally Posted By: EDF

Just wanted to chime in since I recently was debating over the same decision: whether to confront WW and let her know that I knew about the Affair.
---
Since confronting her, the last couple weeks have been rough. Less conversation initiated by her. Almost zero physical contact. I have been working through it, but it's been very hard to draw the line between being aloof and moving forward, without coming across as ignoring her or seeming pissed all the time. I feel like I'm getting it dialed in a bit more now, but it's tough.

Best of luck with whatever you choose, and like with everything else just make sure you're doing it for yourself as opposed to trying to get some specific reaction out of WW.

Thank you for sharing your experience with this. I've already decided I'm going to "tell her", not try to get her to come out with some backhanded questions. While I don't have "hard proof" of what's going on, I know that if I was having 10-15 minute regular conversations and shared over 1,000 texts messages with an attractive woman I worked with, it would be considered emotional affair, at the very least.

I have the phone records from all the texts, calls, etc. and that's what I'm considering my "proof"... bottom line, she shouldn't be sharing over 1,000 texts with ANY man other than myself.

Originally Posted By: betterm

I have the phone records from all the texts, calls, etc. and that's what I'm considering my "proof"... bottom line, she shouldn't be sharing over 1,000 texts with ANY man other than myself.

Yep, I completely agree!

She'll undoubtedly try the "just friends" excuse. Don't go for it.

and I'm not going to make a big deal about it. I'm just going to rehearse a bit, tell her I know and that (use her words against her), we are still married and until we are not married anymore, this is unacceptable behavior and it should end. When she lashes back at me (she will), saying how this is all my fault we are in here the first place, I'll just acknowledge that I've owned up to my mistakes and are working on bettering myself, but that's all I had to say about this conversation and if you want to talk about at a later date, then we can do that.

As much as I love this girl (yes, GIRL!, she is not a woman any so many ways right now), I'm finding myself wanting OUT of the marriage more than I'm wanting to stay IN it. so what's the big deal if I piss her off one more time before it's over, right?

Originally Posted By: betterm

so what's the big deal if I piss her off one more time before it's over, right?

Ahem, for myself, not just to piss her off. One of the things I'm working on with coach, is to be assertive and do things in ways I would never do them before, even if it means brushing my teeth backwards, while standing on the toilet... everything counts, this one just happens to be one giant leap into the direction I'm wanting to go instead of tippie-toeing.

Originally Posted By: betterm

Ahem, for myself, not just to piss her off. One of the things I'm working on with coach, is to be assertive and do things in ways I would never do them before, even if it means brushing my teeth backwards, while standing on the toilet...

betterm,

You should assert yourself five free hours of coaching.

I was thinking last night of assertively cleaning all the toilets with my WW's toothbrush she left at the house and uses when she stays there... I think I'll wait until I see her purposal from attorney for that though.

I honestly don't think my WW and her attorney are speaking the same language (not surprising - we've been together 7 years and still have the same problem)...

I ran into him over the weekend having some beers (of course, took my opportunity to buy him a few and have a "friendly" conversation haha). Anyways, I got his email today saying that he didn't need the entire VFDS completed and signed in order to file, but needs it for "her proposal" for the D, and that he was going to file the documents to start the court proceedings today.

I texted W "So it sounds like attorney is filing the papers today. I'm speechless, but only you know what's right for you and your future, It pains me, but I understand and I will not stand in your way."

She texted back, "WHAT? I did not know that and he didn't tell me he was filing! Hang on!", followed by another text about 5 minutes later saying "I just emailed him, we'll talk about it later..."

I don't know WTH is going on, but I trust her attorney about 9-thousand times more than I do her right now. She literally has lost it and has no control or idea of what's happening right now.

I wasn't texting to get any kind of response or possible change of heart, it was more of a "welp, this is it, make or break, it's been fun" kinda message. My words from before still hold true; mentally, I'm on my own from here on out, and I'm not looking for someone to "take me back" anymore; I'm changing directions in what fits what I want the rest of my life to look like, and while I'm not entirely sure what that is YET, I definitely will not be influenced or manipulated into at all. Really, the only thing that's changed right now, is I'm probably going to put the 'EA' talk on hold for a few days to re-evaluate and rehearse.

sorry I don't usually hand out 2x4's, but you are completely lying to yourself if you think, "I wasn't texting to get any kind of response"
If you weren't, you wouldn't have texted her at all
It's ok to still have the roller coaster of emotions you are having. The point is to try and control them as best as possible. You can't control how you are going to feel, but you can to how you respond to the emotions
Also, that lawyer friend of yours really sounds like he is trying to get disbarred.
First off he never should have taken the case because of the conflict of interest. Secondly, him telling you whats going on is unethical as it gets in the law arena

He didn't "tell me what's going on", since I haven't actually RETAINED a lawyer, he's allowed to talk to me directly on these matters... until I retain an attorney. He told my W from the beginning that this was not something he'd typically like to do, but if she was more comfortable using him he wouldn't reject the case.

There is nothing he's doing or saying that can get him "disbarred", but ethics is certainly at question. However, he's told my W everything and she's okay with us being in contact with one another through this process, and she's actually requested he represent both sides in the D (yeah, this isn't happening, but she's the one that requested it). She still thinks this is all friendly stuff... the strange thing is, this is the SAME attorney that handled her brother's D, and she did nothing but b**** and complain about how bad he got screwed through the entire process. haha. like I said, she's lost her mind.

---

And on another topic, unrelated to the D... She just called me and said, "We're out of money and I wasn't paying attention before now. I'm so sorry, but I'm at the therapists office and I need gas too." I replied, " I put $2500 in the joint checking account and told you to spend it however you want. You spend $1700 on attorneys and I'm not sure what' you've done with the rest, but no, we don't have anymore money to transfer as I need to retain my attorney tomorrow, and that's all that's available in cash. I'll put $20 in for gas in your car and just tell your therapist you'll double-pay next time."

She got all pissed off, and tried to put the blame on me somehow that she spent all the money in the joint checking. HA HA HA. Things like this, repetitive irresponsibility that she's never done anything but play the blame game on, helps me in the process. thank you.

Originally Posted By: cbtdad

sorry I don't usually hand out 2x4's,

You've handed me more than one 2x4 now. thank you cbt! haha.
and you're right, I wanted to hear what she said, because I honestly don't think she even knows what's going on. My head is spinning like a mad man, but at least it's spinning on top of my neck... I don't think she even knows where her head is at anymore.

Quote:

And on another topic, unrelated to the D... She just called me and said, "We're out of money and I wasn't paying attention before now. I'm so sorry, but I'm at the therapists office and I need gas too." I replied, " I put $2500 in the joint checking account and told you to spend it however you want. You spend $1700 on attorneys and I'm not sure what' you've done with the rest, but no, we don't have anymore money to transfer as I need to retain my attorney tomorrow, and that's all that's available in cash. I'll put $20 in for gas in your car and just tell your therapist you'll double-pay next time."

betterm,

You've got doodler's respect.

betterm,

All I can say is don't let your heart get in the way of your head. Protect yourself. I dropped the hammer and filed first after an uncalled for argument with my STBX and she was sweet as can be. I did it all because of emotions and now am paying the price. All STBX has done is lie for months and now I run the risk of losing custody of my boys. Still fighting tooth and nail for them though.

I still struggle with emotions and how I speak to my STBX. cbtdad is right, keep them in check and you will be a much better person.

And doodler!

I brought it up to her... It did not go well, as expected. She said "you think you know everything, you have no clue!" I said "I'm not bringing this up to argue, I want you to know that I'm not angry at you, but rather the action and secretive nature of it. It bothers me that your talking to another man about us, and I wouldn't expect anything less if the situation was reversed." (very summarized version).

She immediately started screaming and yelling about "if you only knew! I'm trying to help our marriage! I can't believe you, blah blah blah"... She put if off as she was reaching out to him for help in this. I said," I'm okay for you reaching out for help, but who does that only when you know I'm not around (this was pre-separation), all through the night on weekends when your with the girls, until 4am and then start back up immediately the next day at 7am. I said there were over 1000 texts within a 5 day period... That's not appropriate for a marriage I want to be in".

She flat out denied ever talking to OM "through the night" or that many times... She denied talking to him yesterday right after she got off the phone with me because "she had something she had to do", and she continued the path of "you don't know jack squat" and I said "you're right, I don't know jack squat, and that's a big part of the problem, your continuing frequent conversation with another man and you weren't telling me about it, and I'm not handling it very well because I don't understand why. But what I do know is right here on the table (pointed to document with every call and text between them), and until I learn differently, that's all I will ever know.

She packed more clothes and stormed off... I knew it wouldn't go good, but in the long run, I don't think it's what makes or breaks the future between us... It's out there now, and the way she left, I'll probably be seeing those papers tomorrow. Fine by me.

It saddens me to have that talk, I don't feel any better about myself at the moment, but it's still really fresh, hearts pounding, I think her reaction has me a bit conflicted, but I feel like a huge weight is lifted off my back that I've been carrying around for months now, and it's not healthy to have that extra luggage day to day, minute to minute... It might be the straw that breaks the camels back, but if she can't see why this would be of concern to me and continues to just blow it off and lie, as much as it pains me, I'll put that right at the top of my stack of reasons on why I could be better off without.

Ouch... What a day. I'm gonna pour me a bourbon now.

Sorry it was a rough day!

For what it's worth, if she truly was doing things to "help the marriage" she could have easily offered to show you the texts to prove it. Instead she gave you lots of words, tried to make you feel guilty, etc.

I view her reaction as confirming your suspicions that her texting relationship crossed the line.

Originally Posted By: JimKao

betterm,
All I can say is don't let your heart get in the way of your head. Protect yourself. All STBX has done is lie for months and now I run the risk of losing custody of my boys.

I'm sorry to hear that, JimKao. I wish the best for you in the case for the kiddos... That's one good thing about my sitch, no kids. only dogs and cats. My attorney is a woman, and sits on the bench as a family/divorce judge (2 days a week) in a neighboring county. She gave me the brutal "worst case scenario", and for me, the worst is bad, but it's not going to affect my permanent future, maybe a little maintenance and a lot of debt, but nothing I couldn't live without (aka, kids).

Originally Posted By: EDF

Sorry it was a rough day!

For what it's worth, if she truly was doing things to "help the marriage" she could have easily offered to show you the texts to prove it. Instead she gave you lots of words, tried to make you feel guilty, etc.

I view her reaction as confirming your suspicions that her texting relationship crossed the line.

Yeah, thanks for re-assuring me. I even asked while things were still [somewhat] calm, and she said I don't get to look at anything of hers anymore because of the situation we're in. She even came forward and told me she changed her email passwords, phone passwords, etc, a while back. So I said "I'm not going to argue about that, but I wasn't aware you changes your passwords, and you get alerts when someone logs in incorrectly, shouldn't that tell you I'm not snooping?" and she rejected my question completely, talking about how "I'm a security hacker guy and can probably get into it somehow if I wanted to". I told her I don't WANT to snoop through phones, and it's upsetting that our trust is so hopelessly broken to her right now. I would expect, even on the hard topics (like an EA - didn't say this), we should be able to talk and trust what each other is saying, so rather than "look" at your phone, just tell me, have you deleted any texts from OM in the past 2 months that you didn't want me to find? And she's grabbed some stuff, said she's not talking to me about any of this right now, and went downstairs... that's about the time the prepared document was brought up, and at that point, things were hot and heavy so there was no comment on "comparing texts/times" etc...

Well, wasn't expecting to her back from W for a few days at least... Missed 2 calls followed by long wall of tex about mostly nonsense. My only response back was "I'm done fighting, <wife's name>, neither of us want it, so that's it... I'm done."

Im calm now. (maybe it's the bourbon), but I just don't want to get lured into her bait anymore... It never leads to anything good for me (now, at least). Something starting off so friendly and genuine sounding always turns into the opposite. I am done.

Well I'm sorry you had to go through that.
I tried to give you a heads up. Did you expect to be totally different than every other WW? She would just open up and tell you the truth?
You need to decide what you want and stick with it betterm. If you don't your head will keep spinning round and round like you described earlier
I want you to know I've been right where you are.
The bourbon will help temporarily only:)

cbt, thanks. and no, I did not expect anything different from disclosing EA to any other WW, but I'd been carrying that around with me for 2 months and now I feel like it should be 'off my chest' a little bit. I'm not teetering day to day on whether to tell her, how to tell her, etc. It's done. Regardless of her admitting anything other than garbage-talk, my part is done. I can move on to clearer goals than that one, which was only weighing me down. I'm done for the night. You all have a good one.

betterm,

I know it's tough for you right now. We all love our WWs and that's what makes it so hard.

From my perspective, and in my opinion, you've done a very good job of DBing. Keep up the good work!

I think i'll post my introspection here.

I've realised that true love is about being selfless, understanding that there is a right action, even if it's the hardest - such as disciplining your child with a spanking.

If true love is selfless, then the opposite is selfish. I am selfish because I do not want to let go of my STBXWW. I love her too much to imagine a future without her. BUT I HAVE TO.

Now being selfless is seeing the woods for the trees, who's toxic in your life and deciding to just drop them. Being selfless is seeing that this is the best decision for you and your child and even though it hurts, you are doing the RIGHT thing.

Hope my context is correct - any of your thoughts?

Originally Posted By: DDJ

I think i'll post my introspection here.

I've realised that true love is about being selfless, understanding that there is a right action, even if it's the hardest - such as disciplining your child with a spanking.

If true love is selfless, then the opposite is selfish. I am selfish because I do not want to let go of my STBXWW. I love her too much to imagine a future without her. BUT I HAVE TO.

Now being selfless is seeing the woods for the trees, who's toxic in your life and deciding to just drop them. Being selfless is seeing that this is the best decision for you and your child and even though it hurts, you are doing the RIGHT thing.

Hope my context is correct - any of your thoughts?

Well spoken DDJ. I think you're thoughts and verbiage are proper, in that true love and compassion for someone, would mean to accept their decisions with full respect and grace. It's hard for an LBS to understand that for the exact reasons you said. In my mind, "I know I can provide the best future for my spouse", all I need to do is make/get her to understand that our situation is solvable and able to make better...

And I'm not in support of divorce ever (except maybe cases where there has been continuing, chronic issues with the 3 A's), there is true meaning behind the cliche phrase of 'if you love them, let them go.'

It sounds like fear of our selfish outlook on our own future is clouding up what true love is really about, and that's being there for someone, accepting them, and supporting them in any way possible to give them what they need to be authentic in their life. I'm not saying it's always right, and that sometimes people give up too quickly or easily, but you're right. It's the forest for the trees mentality that we typically fail to see through our emotions and fears.

An extremely spiritual, buddhist-mentality-type, close friend of mine who spent a lot of time in the Eastern-culture countries (Japan, Thailand) recently recommended two books to me who's familiar with what we are going through. It's probably not the material that most DBr's on this site are looking for, but I glanced over them and they are next on my list to read, just because I'm looking for ways to see my thoughts/emotions/fears from another perspective...
1. "When Things Fall Apart" by Pema Chodronand
2. "The Storms Can't Hurt the Sky" by Gabriel Cohen

The first is about hard times in life, in general. And the second is a buddhist outlook on divorce specifically. I'm not a Buddhist, and I'm not spiritual in the terms of "God", but I think these will be good reads for helping find that true love and compassion you are talking about in your post.

Selfless people do things for others, regardless of the pain it may cause them. I AM a fan of philosophy, and one of my favorites, Nietzsche, would argue that even the "selfless" actions are carried through by our own selfish identities of ourselves, as that's they way (he) views our mind to work. You know that one guy/gal, who's always boasting about how much charity they do, how much they always go out of their way to help others, that guy/gal is the perfect example of this. A lot of times it's not truly about being compassionate of others, but that inside us, we want others to view us as the compassionate people we like to portray ourselves as.

Selfish people will do wonderful things for others too, and probably more likely to not be the ones to boast about their great deeds to others. But when you factor LOVE into the equation, it becomes very difficult to determine a true 'formula' for what's really better for each person involved.

thank you for posting that, as more 'thoughtful' posts are always taken with great appreciation (for me anyways, not sure about doodler - he may just box up your thoughts and toss them in the yard, ha!). I have some more to say about your post, but meeting someone in 10 minutes.

---

As for me, today, even though things went bad yesterday with the EA confrontation, I've found some calmness within me all day long. I haven't had the urges to do the things I've been doing the last few weeks (snoop, text, call, etc), and I've actually had good feelings and thoughts about myself in directions that I haven't found in the past few weeks. I'll be back later tonight for some more. Until then, cheers!

betterm,

I actually enjoy thoughtful posts. I also have an affinity for boxes. And, I'm spent.

Originally Posted By: doodler

betterm,
I actually enjoy thoughtful posts. I also have an affinity for boxes. And, I'm spent.

Haha, Just givin' you a hard time, doodler. You know that's just what we all need around here? a little good 'ole fashion ball bustin' (joe pesci voice).

DDJ - I've been thinking about 'love' and 'compassion' a lot today in my attempts to find a way to relieve some stress, anger, resentment, remorse... (the list goes on), and had a long conversation with my weirdo Buddhist friend (kidding). Your post earlier goes hand in hand with things I've been thinking about. I think that's why I've been able to find some calmness before/during/after the storm.

The truth is, I do love my W like crazy. More than anything I could ever imagine loving again. With no kids, and only "things" to worry about on the legal side, there was a lot of "fear-based" reasons I didn't want the D. As I reflected, those fear-based things became intelligent life-goals I wanted to share and experience with my W. (build safe, foundation to grow farmily, etc), and while I know I could be the one to make her happier than anyone else, if it's something else she has decided to choose in life, I will let her go. I don't want to, it's going to be hard, but as you said 'I have to."

You all have been asking me "what do you want", "what do you care about", etc.... and it's just coming around that it's not just that I want "her back". Because "her back", without significant changes in my life, and hers, will only lead us back to where we are now. I need to chart my path out, and I want to do it with less stress, less anxiety, less contempt.

I was able to not get lured in 3 different times today when my W was trying to stir up trouble. I told her again, 'I'm done fighting, that doesn't mean you can step all over me however you want, but I'm not going to fight back anymore." There was a little more, but you get the point. I'm going to love her through this, regardless of her actions, and regardless of her decision. Hell, I haven't said it out loud yet, but I was even bouncing the idea around of leaving the house for a few days, or a week, and letting her come stay here... not to try and win her back, or anything other than giving her a few days of peace so she can heal a little. I'm not acting on any of this at the moment. It's only been running through my head for half the day. It's just something that sounds like something for me.

My life has turned into a fast-paced, high-stress, business-first, chores-second system. I don't want that for the rest of my future. I know there are a hundred things I can do to fix one, or two, or more of these without making drastic changes, so I'm giving it more thought and going to see what I can come up with.

Well betterm, check out my thread for my latest updates. It is true what you say about selfless also being selfish, at times. My mother always says, never tell people what you have or what you do, people will see it for themselves. Heck, i've always done the opposite.

I think it's about being grounded in who you are and what you stand for. i am finding God, better yet, I think he's finding me. Part of this journey is to give the toxic things to your higher power. You're not truly able to let go if you still hanging on. Counter-intuitive, but then what isn't nowadays.

Like my W used to say, her apple is red, and mine is green - even though its the same apple. Make the most of your apple.

Originally Posted By: betterm

The truth is, I do love my W like crazy. More than anything I could ever imagine loving again. With no kids, and only "things" to worry about on the legal side, there was a lot of "fear-based" reasons I didn't want the D. As I reflected, those fear-based things became intelligent life-goals I wanted to share and experience with my W. (build safe, foundation to grow family, etc), and while I know I could be the one to make her happier than anyone else, if it's something else she has decided to choose in life, I will let her go. I don't want to, it's going to be hard, but as you said 'I have to."

betterm,

I think the quoted paragraph above summarizes the core of the divorce busting mentality. We love our spouses so much that we'd do almost anything to keep them, but that's not what they want given their current mindset. That's what makes a true 180 so difficult; it's unnerving and difficult to do something that is seemingly going to pull you further away from your spouse.

The fear thing (and sometimes stupidity) is the reason that Sandi has to run around the forum doing the whack-a-mole thing. Someone has to wake us up to the fact that cleaning the house and buying gifts isn't going to fix the marriage.

Its really about taking the right action, regardless of your feelings. Whats right for you.

Originally Posted By: DDJ

Well betterm, check out my thread for my latest updates.

I will do this for sure, I'm trying to incorporate myself in other peoples threads, as I know that even though each person's sitch is significantly different, there are a lot of 'common denominators' and ideas that relate to most of the people on this site, as far as finding your path to where you want to be.

Originally Posted By: DDJ

I think it's about being grounded in who you are and what you stand for. i am finding God, better yet, I think he's finding me.

Funny say that. Upon listening and writing on these topics, I actually considered going to Church for the first time last weekend for the first time in 15 or so years.

Unfortunately, one of the first things that came into my head was, wow, if I really went to church and W found out, she'd see I'm serious about these changes. (related to our last posts, don't tell people what you're doing, let them see it for themselves via your actions). I didn't go, but I still might.

Originally Posted By: doodler

betterm,

I think the quoted paragraph above summarizes the core of the divorce busting mentality. We love our spouses so much that we'd do almost anything to keep them, but that's not what they want given their current mindset. That's what makes a true 180 so difficult; it's unnerving and difficult to do something that is seemingly going to pull you further away from your spouse.

Thank you. and I agree with what you're saying completely. I've had so many thoughts/ideas on how I'd like to change and chart my path, and it's been followed a lot with, 'but that may take me so far away from W that there's no way we could reconcile'... I know that's not what I should be doing.

When I started on here (I'm sure you all know), I was a wreck, panic, scared, etc. While it's still up and down, I can see my progress, and I am now trying to only care about if I, personally, see the progress, and not whether or not my W is noticing the changes, I'm realizing now that her view of me and my actions are not why I'm making changes in my life. It's for me. It's difficult at times to see things this way, for what you stated above, but it's really all about that. As DDJ said, it's about making RIGHT choices for YOU, not anyone else. And making those changes based on well thought-out logic and reason (not emotion, fear, etc) for why you want to make said changes.

Originally Posted By: betterm

When I started on here (I'm sure you all know), I was a wreck, panic, scared, etc. While it's still up and down, I can see my progress, and I am now trying to only care about if I, personally, see the progress, and not whether or not my W is noticing the changes, I'm realizing now that her view of me and my actions are not why I'm making changes in my life.

I thought you were very lucid and composed relative to most on this forum.

And, just in case, if you ever need boxes cheap, I know a guy; I can hook you up.

Well, It's my cheat day. So I'm going to plow into this Five Guys Bacon Cheeseburger, as all this healthy food I've been eating recently has me on the verge of sickness. It's like tearing away the needle from a heroin addict. This grease is going to be so delicious, and then I'll regret it about 10 minutes later! ...not unlike a lot of my actions/decisions in the past few months HAAHA

betterm,

Does your wife know that you're cheating?

I leave traces here and there on our joint checking account. So she'll find out eventually.

like DDJ said, confronting my wife about EA might have been a bad idea for reconciling the M. However, since it was done (short timeline, I know), the last two days have been the FIRST two days in almost two months, that I haven't been watching my phone, hearing it buzz and hoping like h3ll it's my W checking in, etc. I haven't had a single urge to call her, text her, snoop her phone records, etc. I know it's only been two days, and the 'fight' we had over the EA wasn't great, but it's starting to seem like it sped up, at least my side of the process, to detach like I should've already been doing.

I still haven't received papers, and I'm actually in complete shock I haven't, as W is typically one to make drastic decisions in the moments of rage and anger (ahem, big problem), but I do know that I have to be teetering on the edge of this thing. I'm probably teetering closer to the D than ever before, yet somehow, I'm become more calm about the acceptance of it. I'm caring less about the "reasons", "reactions", and "decisions" based on how to SAVE MY MARRIAGE... I

I still need to find some new ways to utilize my time. Reading and Writing is great, but I need more. I'm gonna write down some goals tonight on some personal things I'd like to do/accomplish in the next X days/weeks. And this time, it's not going to be: goal1: save my marriage, goal2: be happy with wife, goal3: start rainbows and unicorns garden...

but, realistic, personal, measurable goals for me that I can spend this extra time on, now that I'm not constantly worrying about her and her opinions of me.

Also, I think I'm going to change my name/handle on this site. I signed up with the name "BetterMePlzzzz" but once it translated over to the forums, it always says "betterm" and makes me think of "Better Marriage"... that's not what I was going for when I originally signed up. Does it really matter? yes? no? If it weren't for the acronyms on here I'd never even thought of it that way, but I think I'll change it on next thread

Originally Posted By: trumpet

Betterm,

You might need to grieve the loss of her and then find the strength to chart a new course. Only when your ship has sailed and you're free is when your WW would see the want to come back.

Grieving is something I've never done well. I guess just something that I never learned. I've always bottled things up... Its coming back to haunt me tonight.

My work doesn't allow me time to let my problems get to me too much, too much thinking on the task at hand. Cooking dinner, doing dishes, laundry, tending to the animals... That's when I really struggle with my situation. Just when things seem to be clearing up for me, I break down and get drilled with a right hook from h3ll.

Makes me reconsider the decision of staying here at the house, knowing I'll be alone because she won't come home if I'm here... I know this is the up and down we all struggle with. I can't let it get me down... Tomorrow is another day.

Originally Posted By: betterm

Makes me reconsider the decision of staying here at the house, knowing I'll be alone because she won't come home if I'm here... I know this is the up and down we all struggle with. I can't let it get me down... Tomorrow is another day.

betterm,

I was afraid that staying the house alone would be terribly lonely, but I've had so many home projects to complete that I'm able to remain busy.

Of course, look at me now, I'm posting on a DB forum. I know what you're thinking, "What a loser!" But, when it's this time of night, my old dog starts to fall asleep and she farts and scares herself and jumps up and runs away. It's great evening entertainment! And you thought I was a loser...

Originally Posted By: doodler

Originally Posted By: betterm

Makes me reconsider the decision of staying here at the house, knowing I'll be alone because she won't come home if I'm here... I know this is the up and down we all struggle with. I can't let it get me down... Tomorrow is another day.

betterm,

I was afraid that staying the house alone would be terribly lonely, but I've had so many home projects to complete that I'm able to remain busy.

Of course, look at me now, I'm posting on a DB forum. I know what you're thinking, "What a loser!" But, when it's this time of night, my old dog starts to fall asleep and she farts and scares herself and jumps up and runs away. It's great evening entertainment! And you thought I was a loser...

Thanks for the laugh, doodler. Seriously, I laughed out loud for real... I was thinking about the things I listed earlier that has been 'better' the past two days since my W and mine's last "blowout". I forgot to mention that I wasn't constantly checking my DB topic to see if anyone has posted some magical jellybean theory on how I can solve all my problems...

However, when I sat down to list some new goals for me to focus on... Oddly, the DB community was one of the first things that came to mind. I've grown an [online] relationship with some more than others, but the community as a whole has been great. Sadly, or not sadly, but because I'm such an introverted person, I find it easy to pour myself out to you all than I do anyone in person. You guys/gals... are like a second family.

I had no intentions of having the DB community involved in any of my goals... but you made a clear stance near the top of my list, to involve myself in others stories and try to help out any way I can. Compassion comes in many ways, and I want to give back, and quit focusing on my own PPM story.

Seriously, you all are awesome.

betterm,

Thank you! You're awesome too! Really, you're post made my week. Many thanks!

Funny. In reference to your handle on here, I always read it as "Better Man". But in my head its run together, like "Betterman". It seemed like a name to strive for. A goal name.

You seem to be coming out of panic mode quite nicely. I'm glad you're setting goals and starting to branch into reading other threads. Really, once you stop desperately grabbing at all of the branches and twigs that float by to save yourself from "drowning in the shallows", you can actually see that comfortable pool floaty nearby, climb on, grab a beer in the floating cooler attached and paddle off down the shore, stop in at your neighbors' to casually visit and commiserate or laugh and even learn a bit.

Glad you're setting some goals, too. It helps. It all helps. It will get better.

Originally Posted By: ciluzen

Funny. In reference to your handle on here, I always read it as "Better Man". But in my head its run together, like "Betterman". It seemed like a name to strive for. A goal name.

You seem to be coming out of panic mode quite nicely. I'm glad you're setting goals and starting to branch into reading other threads. Really, once you stop desperately grabbing at all of the branches and twigs that float by to save yourself from "drowning in the shallows", you can actually see that comfortable pool floaty nearby, climb on, grab a beer in the floating cooler attached and paddle off down the shore, stop in at your neighbors' to casually visit and commiserate or laugh and even learn a bit.

Hmmm, I never thought of "BetterMan...", I started with BetterME..., I guess it's somewhat the same, but growing up a fan of [older] Pearl Jam, better man seems to fit! hah.

And, you reference to the pool, beer, cooler, etc... I think you're convincing me to spend the weekend at the lakehouse out on the boat, yeah? Not a bad idea, ciluzen, thanks!

De nada. I spent a bit of time at our river house last weekend watching my dog play in the water. It does wonders for your PMA and is very relaxing. Do it!

Just had another meeting with DB coach, explained with her the current sitch/update of:
-my decision to "live in my house" and not pack bags anymore to make time for her to have "space alone" at the house
-my approach and confrontation of the EA
-her continued manipulation of my comments and actions (I say black, she says white (and it's all your fault because xyz).
---
she asked about my prep, approach, execution, and follow-up...
...and then she offered me a job!

Originally Posted By: betterm

Just had another meeting with DB coach,
she asked about my prep, approach, execution, and follow-up...
...and then she offered me a job!

While my emotions, rants, twists/turns, have me going up and down at times, it appears (from coach), that my actions and decisions throughout this process have been spot on and to keep going with more of what I've already been doing.

Originally Posted By: betterm

While my emotions, rants, twists/turns, have me going up and down at times, it appears (from coach), that my actions and decisions throughout this process have been spot on and to keep going with more of what I've already been doing.

betterm,

I'd agree with your coach; you seem to have a handle on things that most of us don't have.

Someone had mentioned "LBS fog" and I think there's some truth to that. When the LBS gets smacked on BD I think they often go off into their own fog and realize how much they love their WS, and after that, almost everything they do just digs a deeper hole. You didn't seem very affected by the LBS fog.

Did the coach mention anything about boxes?

Not taking anything away from the coaching I've received here at DB. My coach has been great; provided all kinds of useful information and guidance... In response to me getting out of the fog quickly though, I would have to put my hands up for the "hard baller" coach I found, she really knocked some sense into me when I was panicking early on.

I think both parts are necessary and luckily, I didn't hang around in the fog for too long after talking to the hard baller. She gave me the straight up, no BS, knocked over the side of the head with a shovel kind of advice I needed from the get go, and if Iwwere still working with her, I'd probably been the one to go ahead and already file the papers.

Since then, I've stuck to the DB coach and DB mentality and while things with my M still are bad, probably worse, I feel really good about my stance on the situation. I'm taking back some control of my actions.

Doodler - my coach did mention, "next call, depending on how the next week goes, we will go over the LR system, and if that doesn't work they way you'd like, we have a forum member who has been buying so many boxes he can get them at next to nothing. Duct tape too!"

All I want to do right now is use the"highlight" and "notes" option on my kindle for the DR book. Gah!

Question for you all...
I have now yet implemented "full blown LRT", feel I've been on the edge and waiting for the right time (it might be now, it might be been last month...)

With that in mind.... Is it okay to drop a "babe" or "hun" following a response to her text, comment?

Ie, her: hey, I have to pickup a few things for a party, I won't spend much. "
me: no problem, babe. Pick ya up something nice!"

Is this okay or should I stray away from this verbiage? I've avoided it for almost two months now with no noticeable loss or gain, and curious what some of you all have to say?

Not sure why, but when submitting from my phone, always double post

Or should I respond more like, "hey! No problem, we both have to continue living life."

Or..."hey! Quit spending all our GD money you winch! " haha. Jk

Originally Posted By: betterm

Question for you all...
I have now yet implemented "full blown LRT", feel I've been on the edge and waiting for the right time (it might be now, it might be been last month...)

With that in mind.... Is it okay to drop a "babe" or "hun" following a response to her text, comment?

Ie, her: hey, I have to pickup a few things for a party, I won't spend much. "
me: no problem, babe. Pick ya up something nice!"

Is this okay or should I stray away from this verbiage? I've avoided it for almost two months now with no noticeable loss or gain, and curious what some of you all have to say?

betterm,

I had to reread the LRT section of DR to answer your question. I think calling her "babe" or "hun" could be considered pursuit behavior. From the WW's perspective pet names may create additional anger in the same way that saying "I love you" causes them anguish. Based on that, I'd say don't call her "hun" or "babe." However, winch or tart might be suitable.

But, I'm terrible at DB; I'm more of a box and tape guy. So, always get a second and third and fourth opinion because doodler's DB methodology stinks.

So last night was interesting, I went to a festival during the day that started around 3. Hung out all day, went to dinner afterwards, arranged for the care the dogs, and planned to be home around midnight. I was going to be consuming adult beverages so I didn't want to have any bad decisions made over text/talk...

I left my phone in the car the whole time. When it was all said and done, I returned to 6 missed calls and 19 texts from the W. some were about what i was doing, some where about whos taking care of the animals, some included reasons she still has no trust for me, she didn't understand how APR works on credit cards so she thought i wasn't paying her credit card bill, it was all just crazy behavior texts.

The one thing I wasn't expecting was for her to be at the house waiting for me when I got home. She met me in the garage (she was leaving now that I came home), only to say a few harsh words about my lack of responsibility and how its not just okay to ignore her calls/texts all day. then she left, and called immediately after asking how i'm doing all these things but not spending any money out of our checking and how she things I'm still hiding money from her, etc etc.

I gave her the, "I'm sorry you feel I can't be trusted anymore, I do want to discuss this with you and hope to ease your mind a little. Can I call you in the morning?" She called me selfish and said 'do whatever you want'.

So, that happened... haha. Just another day in the crazy maze.

She seems a trifle angry still.

Do you really want to call her "hun" (without adding Attila) or "babe" ? That might not just be pursuing; it might be taken as sarcasm. Which I'm totally okay with, but isn't really good DBing. Maybe I should just go grab more boxes.

Your response was nice. Non-reactive and helpful is good. Anytime you can walk away from a situation and feel that you didn't cave in to her rants and stayed even keel, logical, and "nice" about it, you are winning. And by that I mean earning your own self respect for strength under fire. Look good, feel good. Go you!

She asked me today, "do you think we could be divorced by August or probably not?" haha.

What the heck? Jeez woman! I just said, that sounds like a great question for your attorney.

Originally Posted By: betterm

I just said, that sounds like a great question for your attorney.

betterm,

You're a natural at this DB stuff!

Thanks... I'm now going full on LRT. Anything else I've done / tried leading up to now, has had negative or non impact. These would consist of questions showing interest in her and what she's doing... "how was the event", "how was work", etc...

If she wants to talk, I surely won't blow her off, but I won't be asking anymore questions of her life at all.

I realized her request of needing time at the house is not something I should act on either. We did that for almost two months, and it only led to her saying things like "I've had a lot of time to think about this, and I want a D", or "I've decided I don't want to work on this marriage right now"... So why should I give her the time/space she's asking for at the house (alone)? It's not helpful for me, both personally, and maritally.

I went pretty dark this weekend, stayed super busy, and she responded by constantly trying to check in and ask questions over text she thought I'd surely respond back to (money stuff specifically). It felt good to not involve myself in her bad spending habits and just accept them for what they are (her). No point in trying to argue why bad financial decisions are of importance to me anymore, that is, unless she creates a dangerous position of not being able to pay bills, etc, in which case I'll yank the money out of the account again if I have to.

Her attorney now has my completed financial disclosure papers in his hands, and I'm sure they'll talk tomorrow about their proposal. I'm prepared for the worst (thank you stoicism), but remaining positive in what I can control in my life.

It is so very hard to not give in to what we "want" to do. Especially when what we're trying to do, feel like the exact opposite of what's right. I want to say talk to her, text her, say good night, ask how her weekend was... and I feel that by NOT doing this, it's only putting a worser image in W's head that I'm either 'ignoring her', 'being selfish', etc etc...

Considering one of her biggest complaints was that I left W feeling "unimportant", "not valued" etc... this whole process of not striking up conversations, not asking questions of her and how she's doing, makes it all so very hard.

In the past if she would text a one liner to me, basically anything at all, I was always the last to text back, I would make it a point to say something back just to let her know I'm here for her and listening to her no matter what... Now it's just dead air, silence, after her texts that don't have a question mark at the end... and even some with question marks are getting left unattended to... whew, it's heavy.

I will have to join you soon. I too have had no success with being supporting rock at home. I've been treating her like a W where as she does not see me as her H.

Heres to your LRT, i hope to be strong too.

Natus, I feel for you. I had a busy weekend but planned to start reading up on some others stories on here.

I don't know why I was holding back on going all out LRT. I think I had some small glimmer of hope that shewould come bback around if I continued to show more interest, but in fact, the opposite was happening. She was going further and further away and actually be giving her space, and making this "easy" on her, she declared the big D.

Once that happened. I started testing the waters. Reclaimed my house and stopped coparenting the place. Continued to be nice and would just drop small hints that, although I'm working on myself, she's still very important to me... And that didn't work either... Just makes or more and more distant, and angry.

This weekend was really the first time I've tried to stay true to all of the LRT tactics, its so flicking difficult, but I honestly don't think I have anything to lose at the point. In my eyes (while hope can't be completely contained), I've already lost my W and my M. Other than that, i have to find out what I don't want to lose that'd actually within my control, and that's my authenticity, who I am as a person, and what kind of man I want to be... What I've been doing wasn't working. It's time for change. Not just in the relationship world... But in the world as a whole...

Im hitting the sack... Talk to you all tomorrow .

Got a nice "good morning" text from my W today...
In the form of...

"Just wanted to tell you that <attorney> will be sending papers over today. If you want to talk, let me know."

...Guh-Rate!

My mind's racing again with "response with X?, respond with Y?, dont respond at all?, call my attorney?"

... I need to take a breather.

DO NOT RESPOND AT ALL!

betterm,

What cbtdad said!

By the way, I had all of my wife's lawyer's communication go to my lawyer so that my lawyer can be the bad gal. I only respond to my lawyer. If my wife mentions anything about divorce, I just tell her to let my lawyer know about it. That makes it really easy to deal with the legal stuff.

I feel for you. I got my kids handed to me yesterday morning along with a card for my wife's lawyer. THANKS.... drop the effing Kids off with that Bomb. It really stung, and I broke down and cried, not in front of her, but the kids. I tried everything in me to hold it back. This was the crapiest thing she's done so far. Called My lawyer this morning, this is definitely a new phase for me. I really can't see any way this divorce is being busted.

Originally Posted By: cbtdad

DO NOT RESPOND AT ALL!

Originally Posted By: doodler

betterm,
What cbtdad said! I had all of my wife's lawyer's communication go to my lawyer so that my lawyer can be the bad gal.

It's good thing I've been busy as can be this morning, she actually sent it to me almost 3 hours ago and just saw it when I posted. I thought about responding back 'okay, I'll notify my attorney' or something along those lines, but I'm glad I said nothing back to her at all.

This doesn't change anything for me. I'd already accepted it was coming, and now it's just continuing my path of growing and bettering myself. I'm assuming here, but I think she was trying to get a reaction out of me with the text, which I'm happy to not have given her one.

Originally Posted By: Jb9140

I feel for you.
I really can't see any way this divorce is being busted.

I'm sorry to hear that Jb9140, that truly is a horrible way to be delivered the BD papers. I'm in it with you, pal, and hope I can provide some help for you in the near future. I think that most of us on these forums feel the same way about you as "no way this D is going to be busted", but that's what makes it so difficult and challenging.

--
To make matters better. I have an alert that keeps popping up on my phone saying "2nd ANNIVERSARY COMING UP, PLAN SOMETHING NICE!"... Stupid Phones and their calendar reminders!

I contacted my attorney and she said to come in after being served the papers.... I'm interested to see just how "friendly" she intends to be with this proposal.

I'm just going to treat this like another day. Go home after work, work out, train the dogs, etc. Nothing changes except the full on implementation of LRT and continuing to focus on myself

Oh, and the removing of that stupid 2 yr anniversary reminder on my phone.

Oh Yeah, our 10 yr anniversary is 6\8. Fun times

Im sorry to hear that, Jb9140. Hang in there bud

Just chiming in to commiserate on the anniversary timing blues... Our anniversary is in a couple weeks, right during the big event we've both been training for for several months.

Here's wishing us all the strength to keep up the positive mental attitude during the challenges ahead.

My W is now saying I need to stop ignoring her... She txt me the "attorney is filing today, let me know if you want to talk about it" around 9AM this morning. Never responded all day, she never re-contacted me.

She called me about 20 minutes ago, missed the call taking care of some dead limbs out back, came back to the missed call, and the text of "are you seriously just going to ignore me from now on? that's real mature"... (look in the mirror, woman).

anyways, I did call her back when I saw the call, as I'm not purposely trying to be the selfish, ignoring, person she thinks I am. She didn't answer. I doubt she'll call back tonight, but I'm re-reading my notes and validation charts just in case =)

Originally Posted By: Coconut

[quote=cbtdad]
Cnut, your W wants you! She wants it to work by the actions she is doing
Remember that!

cbt I stole your quote from Cnut's thread... I TRY not to think about things like this, but I continue to want to prep myself for pretty much anything imaginable so I don't complete implode if a situation catches me off guard...

But i do sometimes think/write about what I will do if my W actually does walk through that door and says, "I've changed my mind, I do want to work on the M"... I've ran it through my head several times, and I still have no clue what would come out of my mouth if it happened....

But like I said, I really try to stay away from those kinds of thoughts too much, because I'm just trying to detach and make things the best for what they are right now... me being a married single man who's just trying to do what he can to conquer the world... alone.

Ok, so apparently I had a post completed deleted in response to me asking WHY we can't talk about books we're reading on a public forum...

So, I'm being recommended by books, from my DB coach, and they are not MWD books. I hope I don't cause a fuss here, but I like to read! I'm a knowledge-horder. I'm just curious why we can't talk about books we're reading, we liked, didn't like, etc. when this site is basically designed to help people through troubling times?

If a mod can response, or someone who knows the rules, I'd appreciate it, If this is something that should be dealt with between myself and mods only, that's fine, but I don't know how to setup that conversation. I just want to know what I can, and cannot talk about in the book category. Is it only books by MWD? Only books by DB-coach recommendations? etc?

Personally, I understand why you wouldn't want people recommending books that might have conflicting goals of what DR/DB has, but come on, it's a book, it's only information, we still choose what we want to do with it afterwards.

Sorry for my rant.

Originally Posted By: betterm

I continue to want to prep myself for pretty much anything imaginable so I don't complete implode if a situation catches me off guard...

Here's the thing. Your feelings and her feelings are going to continue to ebb and flow and evolve over time. So if you prepare something today, but she shows up with this dialogue the day before the divorce is finalized or 2 months afterwards or 5 years afterwards your thought processes could be completely different. I understand the need for preparation, but I dont think preparing for hypotheticals is a great idea unless you want to continually consider all of the potential iterations.

The key is learning how to communicate. Listening and validating are skills that need to be practiced, honed, and refined. But once you have them in your tool belt, then there is no "need to prepare".

Originally Posted By: darknes

Here's the thing. Your feelings and her feelings are going to continue to ebb and flow and evolve over time.

The key is learning how to communicate. Listening and validating are skills that need to be practiced, honed, and refined. But once you have them in your tool belt, then there is no "need to prepare".[/quote]
Your absolutely right, and while I can keep running scenarios around in my head, I know that I'll never be fully prepared for [basically] anything. While I want to think my reasoning for these exercises are based on bettering myself, I've obviously still got my WW in the back of my mind (or front), while I'm running through these things.

I'm trying to look at things more like you do, darknes. I'm trying to understand that this "growth" of myself, isn't necessarily to make things work in my current M, but rather to make myself a better person for all other, current, and future relationships I'm involved in. Ie, work, family, friends, future R's (which I can't even begin to think of right now), but you get the point. While I know I'm doing these things for MY future, it still has some figments of possibility that my future will include my current WW.

So, to "ease her mind" during the whole pre-filing I want this, I don't want that, I want to stay married I want a divorce blah blah blah. I told her I would move my direct deposit back into the joint checking until a decision is made (I haven't done this yet, and it take two pay periods for my work to make the change anyways).

But, since the papers were [apparently] filed yesterday and should be arriving by mail in the next few days... I'm thinking I will retract my comment of putting my pay check into the joint checking. This goes back to the "I hadn't gone full blown LRT yet", and was trying to be helpful when I shouldn't have been.

Anyone have reason why, once I receive the papers, I shouldn't be taking of stance of "my money is mine, your money is yours?" I think it only makes sense, if she's willing to formally file for D, she is basically saying, "I've made my decision to start the process of living separate lives." Maybe I'm thinking irrationally, but I would think that includes money/bills/etc.

Yay? Nae?

betterm,

Yay

She'll eventually get your money if it comes to D (assuming a 50/50 split), but there's no reason to give it to her now. Be sure to spend plenty of money on home improvements since you own the house.

Zing... and there they are. Served via email. followed with several texts from my W.
---
"I sent you a bunch of email from attorney, the wording is super harsh and I hate it, and I'm so sorry. I do love you. I just don't feel we are right for one another. I've felt this way for a while and I know you have too. We've always lacked passion and spark, it's time we both choose to be happy."

"I wish and hope we could sit and talk"
---
I'm putting my phone on airplane, and gotta get the eff outta here for a minute... I knew it was here/coming, but I need a breather. I feel like screaming and breaking things, but work would not appreciate that.

I'm going to go ahead and start my new thread.

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2683894&#Post2683894