Well on Saturday she moved out. She is renting a room with a friend down the street.
After she told me that I created this situation and the only way she can think of resolving it is for her to leave. Yes, I miss her, yes I wish she would come back - but on the other hand what a selfish person. She says she loves her kids, it's so hard for her to walk away from everything in her life. Literally leaving with the clothes on her back and a van full of misc stuff. But, really you turn your back and go.
Well I think I'm the winner. I have the house, my three kids, I wake up in my own bed, I have the similar routines as before - but she is gone. She has told me she is moving on.
I guess I need to figure out what's next for me.
I would like her back and would like her to be my wife. But, if she's not coming back - I think I'm kinda set up. My kids are not sure what to think, they know I want her back and did not want her to go. They see me busting my butt with work, running the house, etc.
So time to put Chapter 2 in place,
As my long time listeners know, I think I'm doing pretty good on the GAL. That will continue. I keep knocking off the house projects, my fitness is off the charts, I've got a motorcycle, my hair is growing and I had it chemically relaxed. So I look a little different.
Now its just a point of keeping the house running and setting it up the way I want it.
I know for sure, without her here my pursuing will not be an issue.
So what's next people? My GAL is good, We don't do any text messages, emails, etc. Without her here I'm sure Going dark will be easier as there won't be awkward mealtimes etc.
I'm thinking of stop posting the activities the kids and I do on facebook. Right now I've been posting lots thinking it shoes everyone else that I'm still having a good time without her.
Is that the right strategy??
Need some more thoughts on going dark like this: I think I'll take down the "family" calendar which has important dates in it. Maybe I'll just manage it myself. Maybe she will set up a google calendar to assist. But keep her guessing.
Here is the real problem. I know my 180/LRT was having an impact on her. If I keep making changes to the house and how the kids and I do things - will this alienate her or make her want to be part of our lives again?
Well I'm not sure if this blows the "Going Dark".
Walking my youngest to school we bumped into W coming from the house she lives in. Funny thing it was her birthday. My S10 gave her a big "Happy Birthday". They walked together for 1/2 a block, they said goodbye. I said "Happy Birthday - Have a good day" and walked away. Otherwise, neither of us has contacted the other.
She is supposed to come over on Saturday and see the boys. She had some crazy idea that I would leave the house while she is here. I told her that's not happening. 1st I'm not going out because she wants me to 2nd. I'm thinking the more I'm around the more she can see that we are going on fine without her. What does everyone think?
I'm thinking that once she see's that we are all fine and the house is running great we can demonstrate that we will be fine without her. Thoughts?
bigybiz,
My thoughts will sound familiar to you.
Stay focused on doing things for you. You sound as if your plans for action are about having an affect for your w.
You have been doing great things and I hope you continue, but I have to say that the theme in your posts and your request for advice is still very focused on her.
Stay at the house if you can benefit from it. Leave if you can benefit. Do not do it it to " show her" anything.
I challenge you on this as I am learning much about how we are what we think. Your postings are what you are thinking.
So my 2x4 for you this morning is, read and learn everything you can about detaching.
You are demonstrating great actions. As your mindset aligns this will be the point that you will truly be the person that only a fool would leave.
Keep on keeping on and know I am proud of all the efforts you are making and am praying for you and your family my friend.
SadHub:
Thanks for your post. There is no question I am suffering from extensive confusion. I really like the practical/physical. It gives me a real sense of accomplishment which makes me feel great and boosts my confidence. I love giving the impression to everyone that I'm busy, focused, achieving, etc. Sometimes I even believe it.
I've accomplish so much since the fall of 2015 - it's almost scary and yes it tick's the W off which I kinda enjoy. There are two moments that I savour.
1) She said - Why are you doing all these house projects now - how come you did not do them when it could have made a difference.
2) On Saturday before she left she said: Your work outs are paying off you look very defined.
As you point out - It seems that I have been doing them for her as much as I have been doing them for me.
So for now I'll claim to be the winner:
I have my house, my 3 kids, a fab body, a motorcycle, new skills (cooking, etc) - so I should be attractive to someone.
Now I need to set the boundaries and keep her from ruining my progress.
Here is the catch. I believe God brought us together. We both messed it up (I'll take much of the blame). And now I need to trust that God has a plan for me that will give my more than I could possibly imagine. So I won't date.
So in the meantime - my mind is my worst enemy. I need to figure out how to detach - without developing a hard heart like hers.
Even if she does not come back, etc, etc. I'll still be very happy with the progress I've made.
How does that sound?
bigybiz,
Glad to hear you are doing well with your kids. It's important to be happy with yourself. Keep it up. You are an inspiration to me.
JimKao - What an honor for you to say I'm an inspiration. That means so much at this time - when I feel so isolated and second guess my self constantly.
Everyone else in my life - including my kids are looking at me like I'm some kind of dummy because I'm the only one who wants my marriage to heal/repair.
Aside from my pastor (who is very cautious) - the people here are the only group the empathize with me.
I guess what I need to say is I really have everything. Health, family, home, work, opportunity, (did I mention a motorcycle :)) etc. I just don't have a Wife. So maybe I'm scoring 80%. In most exams 80% is a pass.
I'm just not ready to give up yet.
SadHub:
Thanks for your post. There is no question I am suffering from extensive confusion. I really like the practical/physical. It gives me a real sense of accomplishment which makes me feel great and boosts my confidence. I love giving the impression to everyone that I'm busy, focused, achieving, etc. Sometimes I even believe it.
bigy keep up with the things you are doing if it boosts your confidence. This is a good thing. This is for you. Keep that as your focus.
I've accomplish so much since the fall of 2015 - it's almost scary and yes it tick's the W off which I kinda enjoy. There are two moments that I savor.
1) She said - Why are you doing all these house projects now - how come you did not do them when it could have made a difference.
2) On Saturday before she left she said: Your work outs are paying off you look very defined.
This is for her. This is the part that you want to remove the focus from.
As you point out - It seems that I have been doing them for her as much as I have been doing them for me.
Perfect. You recognize it. This is a good step needed in order to detach.
So for now I'll claim to be the winner:
I have my house, my 3 kids, a fab body, a motorcycle, new skills (cooking, etc) - so I should be attractive to someone.
You will be attractive to someone if you keep it up. This is a key aspect for Dbing. If you made these changes for her, they will not stick. If you made these changes for you, they can become permenent and then you will be the person only a fool would leave, and my addition to this, you will be the person that attracts the persons that you deserve.
Now I need to set the boundaries and keep her from ruining my progress.
No one can ruin your progress but you. Boundaries are about respect, not progress. Progress happens if you are doing the right things for you.
Boundaries are so that she does not violate your emotional space, your position as a father or man of the house as well as to protect her from jumping over the edge so to speak with you.
Here is the catch. I believe God brought us together. We both messed it up (I'll take much of the blame). And now I need to trust that God has a plan for me that will give my more than I could possibly imagine. So I won't date.
I too believe God has a plan and when we have faith, and do our best, he can guide us. I am learning that sometimes he will reveal the plan after we do the work, and that is why I am focused on living in the moment, because the future will be bright, it just may not look like I imagine it. Your faith and belief is a great thing and I see it in your story and admire your faith and work.
So in the meantime - my mind is my worst enemy. I need to figure out how to detach - without developing a hard heart like hers.
I completely understand where you are coming from about the mind being our enemy. I live that each day. As you continue your efforts and research on how to win that war, you will be better for it. It will be a challenge, but when you conquer this, you will be that person a fool would leave.
Research detachment, study it, and practice. Detachment, does not mean you stop loving her, nor develop a hard heart. You can detach and still be kind and loving. You just won't be affected by her actions, and your actions will be due to being the strong confident man you want to be.
Even if she does not come back, etc, etc. I'll still be very happy with the progress I've made.
How does that sound?
Detach and you will be happy no matter what decision she makes. This will be because your happiness comes from within.
It all sounds good. You are on the right path, and I believe that if you put the same effort you have been giving you will arrive at the point of being the man, only a fool would leave.
Keep it up big!! You have made great progress and you are an example for many that join us here.
bigybiz,
Glad to hear you are doing well with your kids. It's important to be happy with yourself. Keep it up. You are an inspiration to me.
bigybiz,
I want to echo this also. I've been following your posts. I haven't really posted much on your because you seem to be killing it. You are an inspiration to me as well. Not only in the way you're mastering your situation but your faith. When I read your post on "Offering Prayer" it was the right thing in the right time and I thought to myself, there's someone who get's it. That post really helped me get my prayer life back on track. Thank you..
Collin, JimKao, SadHub:
Thanks for your posts. It's truly humbling to be in such company. When I reread my own posts, I realize that they can sound more dramatic than I actually feel.
I'm totally energized when I read the various posts from all of you and so many others on this site.
As you know, I'm very happy with the progress I've made and I know no one or nothing can take that away. As easy as it is to say, I should not do things with her in mind - I have a desire to try an make amends for some of my failings. Whether it's catching up on house projects or taking on a bigger part of the house work, doing a better job at tracking finances, etc. I get great satisfaction in making amends where I can. I do believe that part of being remorseful is changing behaviour. If she chooses not to accept my changes or acknowledge my efforts - that's her problem. My efforts were sincere/genuine.
I can truly tell everyone that life right now is OK. I do ache for her and think about her all the time. I do need more focus on work. I'm happy with much of what is happening - TBH since she left there is 0 tension in the house. I need to be thankful for that.
The other day, I said to myself - Maybe I don't want her back - maybe she is damaged goods. Then I realized that is the wrong attitude. Even though I took my hands off the wheel for a few years-I did promise to love her forever, so I can't think like that. The negative, retaliatory thinking is as bad as the desperation and neediness.
I do daydream that next week at the school fair - some sexy single mom says to her "Your finished with him right...so you won't mind if...)
Until then, my goal is for my marriage to be healed. So I'll continue to morph myself into a man that is worthy of a loving, accepting, honest, Godly, etc marriage.
But, I still need help with the practical in dealing with her. i.e. Do I post photos, etc of what the kids and I are doing, should I change the house too much, etc, etc.
What do you think.
BTW - I've added to my prayer list that my W uses this time to develop a deep relationship with God.
I
bigybiz,
I'm touched by your thread (haven't caught up but just the last few posts have moved me)... My W moved out on 4/1 and I've been doing my best to GAL, only this week have I felt truly free from her as I've been doing my own thing.
I too am believing in the covenant M and pray every day that she will come back. Little interest in dating or moving on but temptation is constantly there - I find that now to be one of the toughest things to turn my eye away from.
I sympathize with your comments around FB, and getting Buff, originally I was doing it for "her" but now realize it's for the betterment of myself, my health and showing strength, but every now and then I contemplate - how will she react. I posted last weekend when we actually did something together, thinking maybe the OM would see it, but I'm starting to realize these little things don't really matter in the grand scheme of things.
She needs to be hit by a 2x4 before she'll contemplate coming home.
PacLove:
Thanks for the your post. The overall message with these WAW/WW is they need to feel the loss that they instigated. So until she walks into that 2 X 4 on her own - she won't feel it.
I still have a burning feeling inside me to "show her" how "together" I am with the house, kids, etc. I know that it's the wrong motivation - but as I keep saying there is a triple benefit if the kids, the house, etc are well cared for - they are happy, I'll be happy knowing that yes I can do it all and if it bugs her - that would be great too. She doubts my ability to run the house. Well, not only am I running it - I'm improving it.
Or if she thinks - that we don't miss/need her and she distances herself even more - then that's telling to.
As I said over and over. I'm very happy with all the small consistent changes I've been making. It definitely shows a trajectory and I know I'm reaping the benefits.
I've decided I'll go dark on posting what I'm doing with the kids etc. If she wants to know - she will ask and/or she can see when she comes over.
I will change the house in moderation. I'll keep up the improvements and the decluttering. I won't toss her stuff and I won't make drastic changes i.e. take down photos of her, change paint colours, etc.
PacLove:
Thanks for the your post. The overall message with these WAW/WW is they need to feel the loss that they instigated. So until she walks into that 2 X 4 on her own - she won't feel it.
I still have a burning feeling inside me to "show her" how "together" I am with the house, kids, etc. I know that it's the wrong motivation - but as I keep saying there is a triple benefit if the kids, the house, etc are well cared for - they are happy, I'll be happy knowing that yes I can do it all and if it bugs her - that would be great too. She doubts my ability to run the house. Well, not only am I running it - I'm improving it.
Or if she thinks - that we don't miss/need her and she distances herself even more - then that's telling to.
As I said over and over. I'm very happy with all the small consistent changes I've been making. It definitely shows a trajectory and I know I'm reaping the benefits.
I've decided I'll go dark on posting what I'm doing with the kids etc. If she wants to know - she will ask and/or she can see when she comes over.
I will change the house in moderation. I'll keep up the improvements and the decluttering. I won't toss her stuff and I won't make drastic changes i.e. take down photos of her, change paint colours, etc.
How does that sound for a plan everyone?
bigybiz,
It sounds like you're doing a great job!
When my wife moved out I realized I could clean, and improve, the house and lawn my way without constantly getting permission and approval. It's been wonderful!
As I come across stuff that belongs to my wife, I'll save it and then when she comes over to get the boys (we do the 50-50 thing with the boys) I'll tell her to take her stuff or I'll throw it away. It's not an attempt to be mean, but I am actively showing her that I'm moving on without her.
PacLove:
I've decided I'll go dark on posting what I'm doing with the kids etc. If she wants to know - she will ask and/or she can see when she comes over.
....
How does that sound for a plan everyone?
I'm not sure going dark on Facebook is strictly necessary. If your postings have been mostly about trying to stir a specific feeling in WW, or "showing her" how happy you are then sure maybe cut back some in order to detach better.
However, I think Facebook can also be about engaging more with your wider social circle. Rebuilding and forging new social connections so your mood is less dependent on hers and help give LBS sources of validation and support other than the spouse.
I'm new to your sitch but I agree with the other posters. You are very, very attached.
The good is that you are trying. The good is that you are posting. The good is that you are using your emotions productively and making personal improvements.
The downside is it is clear you are doing it for her. You seem to have it in your head that the story will go that she walks, you DB and better yourself, she sees what she's missing and that the grass isn't greener, and eventually she regrets her decision and wants to come back to the M.
While that's possible, it's not probable. That is a fairy tale. The harsh reality is it doesn't work that way in real life any more than living 'happily ever after'.
Sometimes people remarry after years of pain and suffering and change, and after failed relationships with other people.
Sometimes people never look back.
My point isn't that saving your M is hopeless. It's simply that it isn't certain, and if it did work out it would be a new relationship between two new people- the people each of you become over the next few years of a journey.
You will unfortunately have to grieve for your loss and move forward with your life without her. You will have to detach. Either you will do it, or she will force you to because she WILL detach and you can't keep playing the emotional connection game if she truly lets go. Or you will continue to be in some type of weird emotional game that persists throughout the years and future relationships.
I second the vote for learning everything you can about detachment. Working hard to come to grips with the reality of the situation. When you find yourself doing things and mind reading or fantasizing about how she feels or will feel, STOP. She's gone. She's out of your reach. Potentially forever. Whatever you want from her, learn to do for yourself.
It is brutally hard, but it will pass. This will help you survive the loss, and since it aligns with DBing it's not like you're killing the chances of a future relationship either.
EDF and all others:
Thanks for taking the time for the detailed posts. I guess I'm waving the white flag. Yes, I'm attached. So yes, I will reread the homework on detachment and do some extra googling on the topic.
I guess the honest response is - in the past, when needing to get over hurt, loss, etc - I typically would busy myself (school, work, hobbies, friends, etc). Eventually, the hurt, loss, etc would move to the background and then fade away.
So this is my 1st 20 + year relationship that has gone bad. So I thought I was doing the right thing by busying myself. BTW my D20 says I have too many hobbies and I'm not allowed to take guitar lessons.
As I've said before - with W moving out, it makes it easy to "go dark" and for sure the pursing will stop - out of sight out of mind right.
The honest answer is, I like the improvements I've made and I really like the fact that my W can't help herself and notice. Further, she makes the occasional remark e.g. just today she said the back yard looks great and really likes the new items I added to the tree house.
So, the next step will be detachment. Sounds easy but it ain't.
On the plus side, today when she came over with her list of demands regarding - visitation, support, etc. I just listened and told her that I'm not going to respond until I had a chance to think about it etc. I told her I had some question and to let me know when she is free to discuss. I reminded her once and did not hear back. I left it alone. Now, I'll wait to hear.
As my long time readers/listeners know, I love the practical. Does anyone have an practical tips on how to detach? The thought stopping, etc.
Give me your feedback please!!!
As my long time readers/listeners know, I love the practical. Does anyone have an practical tips on how to detach? The thought stopping, etc.
Give me your feedback please!!!
Practical tips.
1. Read this
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post25384142. Discontinue thinking about how any action or decision you make affect your W.
3. Discontinue posting about things that you are doing and how it affects your W. If you are posting about it, then you are thinking about it. See tip #2
4. Search for additional material on tips for detaching.
And yes, I agree bigy, that truly detaching is a difficult task. Time is our gift for this and knowledge is the start, action will move us closer, and then finally that little thread that has us connected will finally break.
Until then my friend, hopefully these practical tips can get you on your way.
I think you have to decide which you want.........to show your W what a great job you are doing...........or to mentally and emotionally detach from the feelings you have connected to her and her opinions.
I understand how you are driven, at least I think I do. I am very much the same way, which doesn't make it right or wrong......I just understand how it works.
If I were in your shoes, and I mean me, Sandi.........I would probably be doing pretty much the same as you, if my goal was to find satisfaction in showing my H what a terrific gal he left. On the other hand, if I felt through with him, then why would it matter how he saw me. For me, I would have to be so utterly sickened at the very thought of him, for me to completely hold back from smearing it on a little.........but that's my personality and I'm not saying it's right, I'm just being completely honest. Even if I didn't want the guy, I would get a little bit of pleasure in showing what he no longer had. (Maybe I am a little wicked).
This causes me to recall when my D's H left her for another women. When he dropped by, she didn't care how she looked or how her place looked. I told her one day that I would look like a doll when he came by.......to show him what he gave up. She looked at me and said, I could care less what he thinks! So, two difference of opinions, I suppose.
With you being kind of energized into pushing forward by showing your W what she's given up...........it could eventually, I think, taper off to where you were more focused on just you and the kids. However, I certainly see the points SadH makes, and he is completely right that it keeps you attachd and causes you to have certain expectations.
Again, I think you have to decide for yourself which way you want, but know that you can't have both, (I don't think), in the frame of mind you have at the moment. B/c it occupies your mind, and b/c you place a certain level of importance on it........you stay mentally attached to her. You can either be detached or make "showing her" as your goal.
Years ago, a lot of the LBH'S gave illustrations of what each other could do to show their WW's how they were doing great without her and moving forward. I adopted a lot of it, but I do agree that it can keep you mentally attached. Your focus becomes on what she will feel or how she'll react, etc. In some cases, I think it may even be necessary (depending on the actions of the WW). But if the LBH is really ready to start living for himself.......without his W's opinions and feelings dictating His actions, and if he is ready to have inner peace, then I believe he has to let it go. I just don't think you are there, Biz. You have never been detached, and I'm not sure you fully "get it".
As my long time readers/listeners know, I love the practical. Does anyone have an practical tips on how to detach? The thought stopping, etc.
Give me your feedback please!!!
Practical tips.
1. Read this
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post25384142. Discontinue thinking about how any action or decision you make affect your W.
3. Discontinue posting about things that you are doing and how it affects your W. If you are posting about it, then you are thinking about it. See tip #2
4. Search for additional material on tips for detaching.
And yes, I agree bigy, that truly detaching is a difficult task. Time is our gift for this and knowledge is the start, action will move us closer, and then finally that little thread that has us connected will finally break.
Until then my friend, hopefully these practical tips can get you on your way.
I agree with this, especially #3.
I'm not saying to stop posting about what your are doing to GAL, but any time you find yourself typing "W," stop and consider whether you are about to say how you think she is responding to or noticing what you have done. And then don't type that part.
The important thing is what you think about what you are doing.
My #1 tip on detaching is to replace the ways in which your W met your needs with alternatives.
For example, if you miss the physical touch, get a massage 1-2 times a month for a few months. If you miss the emotional connection, post here what you'd want to share with WAW, or spend more time with close friends. If you miss family time, make some special time with your kids or with relatives you haven't seen for a while.
What you will find is that your W is just a person. When we've spent so long with them it's easy to see them in a mystical light, as if they hold the keys to our soul. But the truth is that when we diversify how we meet our own needs, they will no longer look magical. Once our needs are met, she will look more like a person we'd like to spend our life with, but not salvation in itself.
That is why GAL is so important. It gives you opportunities to discover other ways to meet your own needs.
Sandi2: What guy in his right mind would want to leave you.
Sandi2 - thanks for laying it out as you have. It's almost reassuring to hear that there could be two ways. I can totally say that I was hoping the "detachment" would just sort of happen.
I can tell you right now - I've already started to see how some of my feelings, etc are in direction relation to how she acts, responds, etc. I think now I can start ditching that.
As I've said over and over. I'm really enjoying the GAL part. I love catching up on the house projects, My motorcycle is a massive pleasure and being with my kids and the changing dynamic with them has been awesome. My workouts, new friends, old friends, new skills, etc - has been great. I really do feel so much more confident and as if my life is almost complete.
Nonetheless, my faith still tells me that God brought us together and I should not "dispose" of her. Which I wish I could do - but I can't.
So, I'll keep on with the GAL - that's easy.
I will:
Thought Stop (all I do is think about her)
Not put up with her crappy behaviour when it crops up
Continue not showing interest in her "new life" - trying to be aloof ( I was great this week)
Continue to fill the void in mine and the kids life
I really do want to get to the point where I don't care/let go. Because I'm positive - once that happens i) she may show some interest ii) I will be really ready to move on.
So here is my pledge:
Continue with my high octane GAL - I love the results and everyone around me is noticing the difference.
I like the suggestion about not posting about how she would respond/feel. Consider my turning over a new leaf right now.
Read and reread the other parts of the detachment.
Again, I love the practical.
bigybiz,
You are truly a great example for so many LBS here. You have one of the most genuine PMA that exists here in the community. You push through every challenge, your faith and belief in God is clearly abundant. Your efforts to progress and your fearlessness to take chances and overcome mistakes is very admirable. And your insane desire to gather ideas and information so you can apply it is unmatched.
Brother, your story is a perfect example to so many of us have to keep on keeping on.
I push you to detach for your benefit, but I can tell you will do so in the right time frame. Your actions and efforts speak louder than any words.
Brother, I admire you, respect you and hope our paths can cross some day so I can shake your hand and give you a man hug and thank you for the example you set in such a challenging journey.
Keep on keeping on my friend. You inspire me.
Just remember that detaching does not mean you have to stop loving her. Read carefully the page on detachment, and notice when attached......it is how you tie everything to her feelings, opinions, moods, reactions, acceptance or rejection, praise or criticism, on and on. You become enmeshed in a co-dependent and unhealthy relationship and lose a part of yourself.
Stay balanced!
Just remember that detaching does not mean you have to stop loving her. Read carefully the page on detachment, and notice when attached......it is how you tie everything to her feelings, opinions, moods, reactions, acceptance or rejection, praise or criticism, on and on. You become enmeshed in a co-dependent and unhealthy relationship and lose a part of yourself.
Stay balanced!
Very well stated sandi, very well stated indeed.
Every LBS should read this simple statement and print it out to refer to.
Nonetheless, my faith still tells me that God brought us together and I should not "dispose" of her. Which I wish I could do - but I can't.
So, I'll keep on with the GAL - that's easy.
I will:
Thought Stop (all I do is think about her)
Not put up with her crappy behaviour when it crops up
Continue not showing interest in her "new life" - trying to be aloof ( I was great this week)
Continue to fill the void in mine and the kids life
I really do want to get to the point where I don't care/let go. Because I'm positive - once that happens i) she may show some interest ii) I will be really ready to move on.
bigybiz,
Gosh I wish I could be more like you! I too feel God has brought my WW and I together for a reason.
All the things she wanted before we ended up in this craziness was in the works. She only wanted positive things for me and the family. Not taking all the blame but I also understand that I will never know how she truly feels unless she decides to come back and even have a conversation with me but the only time she even felt like doing that was when I had filed for D.
Didn't mean to hijack your thread. Just want to say that I admire your positive attitude.
Wow: This is the greatest group of people I never wanted to meet. I too wish I could meet many of you. If you are in Toronto - you need to let me know.
Yesterday, the kids and I had a meeting to discuss the W proposed visitation schedule. The kid's told me that since she moved out - she should not have visitation in the family home. Further, when I asked if we should invite her over for meals, special occasions, etc - they said no.
The kids are rocking the detachment.
Today was tough - I was physically busy but she was on my mind all day. If not reliving past arguments, I was coming up with ways to bug her. OK day one detachment not going so good.
She was supposed to get back in touch with me to discuss. I sent her a message last night to set up a time but no response. She thinks she has the kids tomorrow night.
What is the right strategy? I want to be strong and not put up with her nonsense. But, I realize right now I'm letting her nonsense bug me. Should I:
Just wait it out and assume she is spending time with the boys on Tues?
Assume she is deliberately going dark - and assumes she will do what she wants
Something else:
Please help - need a strategy now.
Calling everyone give me your input please. I want to be strong, aloof, non confrontational, don't put my kids in the middle of it - but not put up with her BS.
On the other hand, I had a great evening with my boys, enjoying our home and the kids are liking my cooking and baking. It's nice to be appreciated.
I'm behind in work - so no motorcycle ride tonight.
Please help! Sandi2, Cadet, SahHub, Melo, Phoebe, JimKao, Collin, everyone.
bigybiz,
You and I will definitely meet up before the end of this year. I can assure you of that.
As far as your W goes, I would continue doing what you do best, live your life. If she comes over tomorrow with no notice be friendly. I agree don't put your kids in the middle of this. If they want to say something to their mom then you should support them but they should still respect her, she still is their mother. I would see how things play out once she gets there and if the boys do not want to be around her then take them out and do something even if it is a walk, but all she needs to know is you are going out. IDK, I am definitely not the best DB'r to ask but still working on it.
Zues126:
I narrowed it down to a few things I miss the most.
- Companionship - watching TV, Drinking Tea and Coffee, etc
- Touch - hugs, kisses, etc
- Loss of identity - being a husband for 20+ years is a hard thing to view as over
So ideas on how to replace them would be great. I'm committed to not dating, etc. I know that would be a mistake.
JimKao: Thanks - no news from her. I asked the boys if they have heard from her and 0. So I told them we will plan to have our own dinner and be together for the evening. I hope my d20 is around too. We have a family counselling session at 4pm. So if there is not mega homework - maybe dinner and movie.
Sorry - I still am not sure how to handle here. I'm expecting a text saying. I was very busy- I'll be there a 6pm to pick up the boys, etc....
Any ideas on how to be detached, strong and change the dynamics of our relationship.
Zues126:
I narrowed it down to a few things I miss the most.
- Companionship - watching TV, Drinking Tea and Coffee, etc
- Touch - hugs, kisses, etc
- Loss of identity - being a husband for 20+ years is a hard thing to view as over
So ideas on how to replace them would be great. I'm committed to not dating, etc. I know that would be a mistake.
In regards to plans tomorrow night I would remain flexible and not let her lack of communication or the way she's handled the situation rattle you. This is a short term, potentially one time issue. Don't die on this hill.
What I would recommend is sending her an email stating that you feel it would be in everyone's best interest to have scheduled parental time. That way you could both plan around it, and it would help the kids to have some type of predictable structure so they knew where they'd be, when they'd have free time, and feel reassured that both parents loved them and would be in their lives. I'd then ask if she has ideas on what that could look like for now. I'd emphasize that this could be an interim informal agreement that could be revisited as things evolve, and that you remain committed to being flexible so they could have a good relationship with her and you could work cooperatively to minimize the strain on either of you. Then I'd sit back and see how she responded. The key would be doing something collaboratively if possible, although at some point you'd have to do what you do with or without her blessing. But that's a good place to start.
As for the three things you mentioned, I can only tell you how I'm meeting those needs. Disclaimer, it isn't an easy hole to fill and takes time. That's why so many people medicate, the need to fill the hole is so strong and the easiest way to fill it is with garbage like rebounds, alcohol, etc. If you can avoid doing that you'll allow yourself to naturally fill it with healthier things that represent the best self you want to be.
For companionship I have a best friend that I am very close with. We leave each other voice mails throughout the day, and talk probably 30-60 minutes a day. He's married with kids, I'm single with kids. But he's a friend that is part of my daily life, that I can share the stupid little things that make me laugh or get me frustrated, etc.
For physical touch, well, it's limited I'll admit. I do the massage thing now and then. I have kids that I hug goodnight, and we wrestle around sometimes or watch movies together. Definitely no adult interaction, but that wasn't much different than my marriage anyways...
Identity...well, I am a father, an employee, a competitor, and I continue to strive to do my best at all of those three. But I've also gained a lot by participating in these forums. I've averaged about an hour a day for coming up on two years now, and I've gained a lot by being part of this community. I am proud of being a man that stood by my marriage and that protests the cultural acceptance of divorce and infidelity. That is now a big part of who I am. I understand I can't change the world and have to accept how it is and be appreciative for what I have, but I still get to do what I can within my sphere of influence to cast my vote for marriage.
All I've got for now. Keep your nose clean and live so you can look proudly in the mirror at night and you'll be fine. It is difficult and it does take time, but at least you can sleep easy knowing you're on a road that goes where you want. Keep posting and take care.
Urgg:
First she says she is not wanting to participate in the family counselling. Now she says wants to. Help, Help, Help.
Is this a game she is playing? Is it part of the loss that she may be feeling since she moved out.
I know this is a long way from detaching but cut me some slack people.
I go to the trouble of setting this up. She tells me that she won't participate and that a Dr she saw says she should not.
She moves out - She tells me know that the boys want her there. When I asked them - They told there mother that the Dr said it would be better if she attended.
Is this a good thing? a bad thing?
BTW - she hates the Dr we are seeing. He is the Dr we went to a few MC sessions with. She did not like it that he told her that our marital problems were her fault too.
Ok - Don't believe anything she says and only 1/2 of what she does.
Help - input please please.
Bigybiz
Make the plan communicate to her. If she shows up great. If not do the MC on your own.
I am on the Rollercoaster all week. Hope your switch does not get on my ride.
Wow - what an evening:
W shows up at the family counselling despite the fact she does not like the Dr and she was told by another Dr not to attend. She says our boys told her to come - so she came.
During the session - S15 tells all of us, that mum should not get to visit at the family home. The boys should visit at her place - remember all she has is a room in house, sharing kitchen, etc.
Well she did not like that
Then the Dr tells her that two nights a week and all day Saturday is about half of the available time for visits. She did not like that at all.
I invited her over to talk about other details, $, etc. I told her she should have spoken to me first - remember she did not return my call, etc. I would have caved and let her use the house for visits. I stayed strong and did not offer. Especially since S15 thought since she left - we should visit her at her house. I could not cave on his request.
I did slip and ask her how she was - she told me as to be expected. I'm thinking the reality of the situation is leaching in:
She has her dream job - but 50% of her pay is coming to the home she left
She feels that she should see the kids more than she should - but the Dr felt what she is getting is adequate
She really took it hard when S15 (who is sweet and loyal) told her she should not come over -She actually said in the Dr's office "It seems that I'm not allowed to come over"
She says she misses her kids - but I truly think they don't miss her that much.
I'm not sure if this helps me or hurts me. I was careful not to gloat. When she asked me how I was doing, I was a little positive. I did not want to be boastful. I was hoping my actions were speaking more than words. The kids are fed and happy, the house looks better than it has in years, I've got the garden coming together (that was her thing when she lived here). I told her work was very busy. I did not talk about upcoming projects etc.
We have an appointment for our S10 this week. She asked if we could go together - I said yes. Not sure if that is right or wrong - but she asked not me.
Detaching not happening yet - but tonight the reality is creeping in.
Is this the kind of loss MWD talks about that could bring WW/WAW home?
I'll keep on with the GAL - that's easy. The detaching is the next big step.
What should I implement on Thursday when we are driving across town when going to the Dr's appt.
All ideas are welcome. These self inflected wounds could be start of the turning point.
Any ideas on how to keep that going?
bigy
Quite the developments you have going on here.
My advice will sound like a broken record.
Stay the course. Keep your focus forward in your lane.
Think about it like a world class runner. If you start peeking over into the lane next to you to see how the other runner is doing, that is where you lose a step and can be passed in the race.
Stay focused on you and the value of your actions for you and your children. You can not predict her reactions and when you start to try, your actions are no longer genuine.
Another analogy is when dogs sense fear in you. You can act all you want, but the dog still senses the real you.
Same goes here. If you start trying to take action with the intent of getting her to react or not react, she will sense it and then you will lose any ground that is gained.
Play it cool, validate, detach, and be the best you possible.
I know this may not be a specific strategy, but you are in the part of the game, where you need to apply the things you have been taught through DBing and then be who you are. You must be the most genuine "you" that there is. Happy, confident, loving, respectful, kind, etc. These are not things that can be strategized for. This are things that need to be genuinely part of who you are.
I am pulling for you. You know I admire what you have done so far, and I am praying for the best possible outcome for you.
SadHub:
You are so right and I must admit that trying to anticipate what anyone is going to do is a fools game - no matter what the relationship - Spouse, parent, co-worker, etc. All we can do is do what we think is best and stay the course.
HERE IS MY CONFUSION.
When I read DB and DR - in particular the chapters on 180 and LRT the idea of not doing more of the same really resonated with me. I realized that 48 years of bad behaviour/habits, etc is the reason I'm in the boat I'm in.
I loved the idea of doing everything differently and certainly showing my WAW/WW that my GAL is permanent and I'll be OK without her. What I understand from reading those chapters - 100's of times is that doing the opposite/unexpected could break the patterns of the past. If the patterns break the WW/WAW might have a second look. Also, once I have "transformed" myself - I would want,need different things from my spouse.
So I embarked on that journey. My longtime listeners have tracked my GAL and even my WAW/WW has noticed that the man in front of her is not the man she decided to leave months ago.
So this is where I need help - and yes you and the entire community is providing it. When faced with a changing situation - I often fall back on bad behaviour. Thanks to help from you and so many others - I get ideas on how to change myself - hence implement my 180/LRT.
Is that making sense? I need to keep trying different things to see what works and along the way make myself and my kids happy too.
As you all know - I have a host of new skills - cooking, gardening. I don't ask her/rely on her for anything. My kid needs baked goods for the Sunday School bake sale - I did it. My W is an expert baker. We went on without her.
I would have waited and waited and waited to get a motorcycle. Now I have one.
So here I am with a WW/WAW who just moved out, her kids are thriving, they don't want to see her at their home. How do I take this changing situation and continue to change the relationship dynamics? I will stay the course - and thanks for the reminder about trying to anticipate her response and or control her actions. But how do I ramp up my 180/LRT?
Bigybiz
Did W ever tell you what she would prefer you changed about yourself? My gave me a list and still wanted a D but if you have a list from W and you can develop a goal for yourself then that is how you can start your list.
No - just that everything about me was bad. She did tell me a little about what initially attracted her to me. But, now the only thing she cares about is he work and the people in her online community/industry. She expected me to blindly support her - despite her bad behaviour etc.
I've been moving ahead on one of the biggest pieces of info from my DB coach - don't believe anything she says and only half of what she does.
I truly do believe she is in a crisis. It's just a point of waiting her out and/or seeing if the loss of her kids, home, etc is enough to make her see if that community is worth it.
Like I said - maybe I'm the winner. I have my three kids, in our house and my motorcycle.
I truly do believe she is in a crisis. It's just a point of waiting her out and/or seeing if the loss of her kids, home, etc is enough to make her see if that community is worth it.
Like I said - maybe I'm the winner. I have my three kids, in our house and my motorcycle.
I agree your W has not hit rock bottom. Neither has mine. My STBX was shaken a bit today but MIL enabling keeps her from hitting rock bottom so not sure any WSW/WW ever gets there.
Bigybiz,
I admire your progress... I particularly admire your kids standing up to my W, something I, nor my D have been able to do - she has visitation at the house and I don't think it's healthy from a DB perspective. In fact last night she even crashed there (with D).
I struggle though with drawing a firm line as she's been very friendly through most of this, and has even validated my right to be "angry" and setup up boundaries like being out of the MBR.
I do agree with you in the crisis scenario, I see it too in my W. I keep hoping for a quick turnaround but this takes time, they need to feel the sense of loss and what they are giving up before they possibly turn around.
PacLove:
You are so right. I did not even think about it like that. Yes, S15 did stand up to her and say - if you are not part of this home, you can't visit here. Wow. Thanks for pointing that out to me.
It was great for her to hear it from S15. So it was not just me telling her that.
SadHub:
You are so right and I must admit that trying to anticipate what anyone is going to do is a fools game - no matter what the relationship - Spouse, parent, co-worker, etc. All we can do is do what we think is best and stay the course.
HERE IS MY CONFUSION.
When I read DB and DR - in particular the chapters on 180 and LRT the idea of not doing more of the same really resonated with me. I realized that 48 years of bad behaviour/habits, etc is the reason I'm in the boat I'm in.
I loved the idea of doing everything differently and certainly showing my WAW/WW that my GAL is permanent and I'll be OK without her. What I understand from reading those chapters - 100's of times is that doing the opposite/unexpected could break the patterns of the past. If the patterns break the WW/WAW might have a second look. Also, once I have "transformed" myself - I would want,need different things from my spouse.
So I embarked on that journey. My longtime listeners have tracked my GAL and even my WAW/WW has noticed that the man in front of her is not the man she decided to leave months ago.
So this is where I need help - and yes you and the entire community is providing it. When faced with a changing situation - I often fall back on bad behaviour. Thanks to help from you and so many others - I get ideas on how to change myself - hence implement my 180/LRT.
Is that making sense? I need to keep trying different things to see what works and along the way make myself and my kids happy too.
As you all know - I have a host of new skills - cooking, gardening. I don't ask her/rely on her for anything. My kid needs baked goods for the Sunday School bake sale - I did it. My W is an expert baker. We went on without her.
I would have waited and waited and waited to get a motorcycle. Now I have one.
So here I am with a WW/WAW who just moved out, her kids are thriving, they don't want to see her at their home. How do I take this changing situation and continue to change the relationship dynamics? I will stay the course - and thanks for the reminder about trying to anticipate her response and or control her actions. But how do I ramp up my 180/LRT?
bigy,
If I may, you may be asking the wrong question. You indicate that you have read the chapter on the 180 and LR 100's of times. Your actions and energy certainly show that you have focused on this and set an example for all that are following you.
But the part of the same chapter, that I do not see much of in your story is the "Wait and watch". MWD indicates that it can take one month or more for every year married to see any potential.
You are doing and doing and asking for more things to do. One might start to wonder are you just jumping from one thing to another? Is this creating a change in you, or simply keeping you busy? If you do a 180 long enough it becomes a 360 right? Now that is a literal interpretation, but my point is, stick to some of the things you have done for the 180 until they are a permanent part of your being. A lot of what you have done are outward actions and behaviors.
I might suggest that you are at a point where a focus on inward parts of you can use some tuning up.
Things like Forgiveness. Selflessness. Love. Respect. Service. Happiness. Confidence. Respect. Kindness. Compassion.
There are actions that we do for these, but the truth in our hearts is key.
For example, I say that I forgive my W for what she is doing. But then I catch my self cursing her name when she does something that bothers me.
I say that I feel sad for the struggles that she is going through. But then I find myself doing something that I know will anger her.
Have I really changed inwardly?
My point is, you may need to start looking inside at this point. Go back and read your posts. Are you really "winning" because the kids take your side? What are you winning?
MWD is very specific the there is no magic bullet when doing the LRT. If I understand now, your W is moved out and that is after all that you have done, correct? I am not trying to say that there is not still chance that she will take notice and become interested, but time is what you have now. See number one of mandatory do's when divorce busting.
I would challenge you to evaluate the things that you are doing and see how they are helping you. Because ultimately as we study DB/DR, once we are at the LRT stage, the process is more about getting us in a good place than saving the MR.
You can not change the relationship dynamics right now. You can only continue to change you. Make that your motto my friend and you will seal the deal and then it is up to her to decide if she is interested in R the MR.
SadHub:
You make some excellent points and ask awesome questions.
To answer your last question 1st. What did I win. Well I think if the W does not come back, I'm ready. I have my home full of my kids, I have a renewed faith, a fit body, a whole bunch of new hobbies and habits. I really don't know what she has that's as good as a house full of kids, love, a garden, etc.
So all in all I win - considering Sept - Dec 2015, I was a desperate, needy, little <insert your fav bad word here>.
I guess one issue the online form has we don't get to see each other as an entire picture.
But, to answer your other question - Yes, I'm keeping busy - but I'm taking on more and more. Yes, she has said to me that she notices changes.
So I'm not going from one thing to another. It's more of a new trajectory. It's a brand new me.
Yes, the internal things are the hardest. As I've learned most of those start with an action:
Forgiveness is a decision - we will still slip - but we made the decision to forgive.
Love is a commitment (not that of 20 year old's where passion, etc is the driving factor).
ON and ON.
Once we have decided to make these changes - the hard part comes. It's far easier to carry a grudge than to forgive.
Here, you are so right. I do think that for these internal facets,characteristics. - we need to make consistent moves forward and maybe the WW/WAW will see real change - in 20 months.
I love having kids, etc to myself. She walked away from this. But I have a heart that is ready for to come back.
Until then, I'm on a new trajectory. But some habits are hard to kick. So that's why I ask for help.
I think you have done a great job Biz. I think you have done yourself justice in caring enough about yourself to invest this much time and effort into things that will better you. I think that one of the tangential benefits will be your kids learning to do the same when faced with adversity. Your commitment to your M and at the same time your courage to stand up for yourself are very inspiring to me personally Biz, I hope to be walking in your footsteps soon brother.
Melo: Thanks for your kind words of support. I feel great with all that I've accomplished etc recently. I really need to remember that is because of God and not because of anything I've done.
Everyone here is right. I may have gotten this far by putting my GAL into full gear. Yes and a big part of it has been to "show her". As you've heard me drone on and on. For me it does not matter that the motivations may not be ideal - as I'm thrilled with the results.
What's next is to continue on the same path - but at this point what she may think or feel is slowly becoming less and less important.
Keep praying for me.
OK everyone here is today's problem. She drops of S10 (late of course). She tells me she is not happy. She says, I have nothing where I am, everything is here and I'm not welcome in this house.
How do I validate her?
I'm dying to say - you left, these are the consequences. I know that is not the right thing to do.
What is the right way to validate and support?
e.g. I see that your current situation is not ideal. It must be awful>......
Let me know some ideas on how to deal with her statements?
My WW says some things that are really challenging to validate too; here are some of the responses I've used (mostly cribbed from various sources):
"I hear you."
"That must be so frustrating."
"I hear what you're saying. It's tough for me to hear, and I'm not sure how to respond, but I do hear you."
"That is an interesting perspective."
"I can see that you are really upset."
As I recall the DR book had a little example about a person who actually used showing a little anger as a 180... kinda giving the wife a 2x4/truth dart. I've been very tempted to do that with some of the things my WW has said, but it seems so anathema to DBing that I haven't risked it.
EDF:
I really like:
"I hear what you're saying. It's tough for me to hear, and I'm not sure how to respond, but I do hear you."
That really does nail it for me i.e. make it sincere. Let's see if it comes up again and I'll try and use it.
It's sort of like the kids voted her off the island. She can't be made at them - because its a response to her actions.
Very hard to validate because for the first time it's not about me or us. It's about her and the kids.
Well, I just blew it.
I made a mistake and let it fester and now it blew up. She is mad and I'm sure I've knocked back any progress.
Oh well, I'll dust myself off.
I'll just think about what's best for me and my family. I'll try and let go. Need to figure out the fine line between letting go and not giving up.
don't sweat it big, it happens.
Personally I never believed in 'not giving up'. I think hope equates to attachment. I think giving up is absolutely the right answer.
Here's my question- if you "gave up", what would you DO differently?
Would you stop working on yourself? In that case you'd be just doing this to win her back.
Would you burn bridges, tell her off, have a rebound affair? In that case, might as well go ahead because I don't think the marriage can be saved anyway.
But say knowing 100% your M couldn't be saved, and having given up...would you instead try to find the healthiest way possible to grieve? Would you try to grow from the experience? To act maturely in a hard situation for the benefit of your children? To live in a way that you could look back on in 5 and 10 years and not regret?
As far as I am concerned, your behavior shouldn't differ whether you give up or not. So go ahead and give up. Don't worry about your love cooling off. That's actually part of detachment. Emotions follow behavior, so if in the future she wanted to R, you could figure out if you wanted to at that point, and if you did feelings could be reborn. But that is a much better approach than constantly recalculating the % chance she will come back, and recalculating how you feel about that idea, and how it would play out, and whether or not it would be possible to rekindle those feelings. Just let it go, give up, and take care of yourself.
To me that is dropping the rope, detaching, and moving forward.
bigybiz,
Hope you are doing well. Just checking in to see how things are in TO.
How is bigybiz doing this weekend?
JimKao:
Thanks for your post. I really appreciate it and sorry I've been dark for the past week or so. I've been busy - but also not at my best. The week started a little glum and I really hit a low point. I climbed out of it. I got refocused on what I was doing and now I'm ready to climb the next challenge.
Zues16:
Thanks for your post - you hit lots of good points. The one thing that hit me that was not here but on a post you put on another thread. You told someone that how could they expect their W to give up the addiction to their A and/or OM if they could not give up their addiction to the W. That hit the right note for me.
My W is addicted to her new career, her community both in person and online. I fought it and fought it. Now, that's all she has. She see's her kids two evenings a week and on Saturday.
I'm still so focused on her. You all know, I've made massive changes. Everyone - I mean everyone has noticed them especially the W. I'm very happy with myself, very confident, my kids are great, I am thrilled with many of the tangible benefits. And I know if she never came back - I'd still be happy with the results so far.
So now I need to give up this "addiction" to her.
I try and "thought stop", I pray a lot, I am so busy with many many things. The question is - will she eventually fade to the background or is there something I can do that will facilitate this?
I think the prevailing wisdom is - once you are totally detached and not interested in her coming back - that's when she MAY come back.
So let's see what happens. I'll continue on my path and try and inject both new and old tactics.
Thanks Zues16
A few developments, comments and realizations since my last post.
First - Good - everything in the house is great. The house is running fairly smooth. The kids's seem happy. Everyone is fed, the house is clean, I'm still killing the house projects, repairs, etc list. My youngest S10 - is doing great. He does not ever mention mom. Or he misses her etc, etc.
Second - Bad- My kids asked me to stop praying for W return to us. I'm not sure why or what. So I just don't pray for W during grace (before meals)
Third - Not sure - W has brought S10 home twice late. Instead of sending messages, or confronting her when they got here. I asked her for a meeting. We met at Starbucks, the next day. I told her about his new routine and how well it seems to be working. The I reiterated that he needs to be home at 9. No drama, no arguing, etc. She agreed. Well the next time - she brought him home late again. This time I did mention that he was late. No apology, excuses, etc from her.
I have no ideas what her motivations are and to be honest who cares. I think I will tell her on Saturday - that I will pick him up at her place at 8:50pm.
Is that reasonable or a good approach? I tried to include her, tried to show why it was important - but she ain't getting it and or is trying to bait me. What do you all think?
Fourth -Bad Still struggling with my addiction. I think about her all the time, I have fictitious conversations, etc , etc. I continue to "Thought Stop", Pray, try and find distractions, etc. Not sure if I'm getting better - I sure hope so
Fifth - Good - Referring to an earlier posts about my motivation for change, etc - sometimes I do it to get a reaction from her. When speaking with my Pastor - he mentioned that if she and I had issues about "control" that maybe doing task, behaviors, etc in hope of getting a response from her could be seen as controlling too. Wow. That was a punch in the teeth. Another great reason for ensuring changes are for me, family and not for her.
Sixth - Good - When meeting with W. She told me she is heart broken not being with her kid's. The fact she only see's them two evening and on Saturday. I did a good job at listening, I tried to validate. In the past I would have pursued and/or said well this what you want so too bad.
Seventh - Soon to be good. I realized that humility is something I need to work on. So I've been talking less, not "trying to help", I'm going to try and have a "lower" profile/not bring attention to myself. So I'm not posting on facebook, etc.
Eighth - Great. Still kicking A on the GAL. Very happy with so many things I'm doing, etc.
Ninth -Help - I'm dark with the W. No messages at all going back and forth. I try to be cool and quiet when I see her. I don't ask her about herself. I do need to instigate the conversations about the house, kids, etc. Let's see what happens next.
I think everyone is up to date.
I have a full day planned for Father's day. I'm making my kids enjoy the entire day with me doing everything - meals, bike riding, Church, movies, etc.
Help: She says she is going to move back in. She misses the kids and I pushed her out.
What should I do. Going back to in house would be awful.
Would it be so awful? I would welcome the opportunity to have W back under the same roof. Can you put some conditions around her moving back in? Set some clear boundaries?
Yes definitely set boundaries.
Thanks everyone for the posts. I know that Sandi2 and others said that in house is not ideal and does not show lots of success in reconciliation. I think the idea is that the changes are slow and gradual - therefore, not visible.
Also, the space was good for my "letting go/detachment" and she goes back to cake eating. living in her house, being with the kids - but no marriage.
Sandi2, Cadet? Any thoughts. Help
Any ideas on boundaries?
Matthew
Hi Bigybiz,
Wow! Your wife said she wants to move back home because she misses the kids?
Proceed very cautiously! Boundaries aren't the only thing you need to consider.
You are at a very fragile point in this relationship and it would be extremely helpful to know what your next move should be. You have been working with a DB Coach, right? Now would be a good time to have a conversation with him/her so you can get a plan in place regarding the best way to proceed.
Cristy
Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004
Thanks - any pointers? She is coming over tonight.
Help Help
M
bigy,
Just a thought but maybe you should say something like the following.
If you decide that you will return to the marital home we will have to discuss some rules prior to your return.
If the agreed upon rules are not met I will (.....add consequence here).
Vets would know how to word this better but I am trying. Look for Cadet's Work Thread. There is a post on it by Coach that explains boundaries.
Thanks - I read the boundaries thread. It was full of good info. Not what I'm looking for in particular.
The key for me is she coming back for her because she feels lonely, bad, etc?
I don't want to be a doormat.
Here's my biggest concern. You appeared to be happy when she left, almost gleeful. You talk as though your life has been better with her absence. So, how will your feelings be impacted if she returns?
It is not a good sign, IMHO, that she wants back b/c she misses the kids.........and no mention of her H........land blaming him for her pushing her out. I don't know the laws about this, so I suggest you check.......if you don't want to let her come back. Is her name on the house?
If you can't stop her, then you better set some ground rules.
Sandi2 - once again you hit the nail on the head. Yes, I was relieved when she moved out. I really felt it was the only way I could properly detach and it was working. I was moving on. I do know she hated it. The kids and I were doing great. In fact the few times she saw S15 & S10 - they both almost saw it as an obligation. She had to think of things to do with them and be an active parent, not play on her computer or phone on her own and be a parent when she felt like it as she had done for months. BTW D20 really has no time for her, but she is ticked at me too - c'est la vie. S15 actually said to me that he doesn't miss her.
We were having parties, the house was running smooth, projects were still going ahead, etc.
As Sandi2 and her DB colleagues say she was probably experiencing the loss that she had implemented. She was resenting paying into a house she was not living in and/or enjoying. Of course she was going to say I pushed her out and never admit to missing me - don't believe anything she says right.
In Ontario she has the right to move back in.
So yesterday I told her that I understand she feels isolated and is missing the kids, her home etc. Then I told her that living under the same roof as separated is not a good idea for either of us to move on. For the next week or two if she wants to come over and visit a little more often that's OK - temporarily.
I plan on staying in this home and we would need to discuss buying each other out. If she wanted to move back in with a path towards reconciliation with counselling, videos, books, etc that would be fine. Otherwise we will scrape together the $ to get her a proper place and the kids can go back and forth in a formal shared custody arrangement.
When she left we had some fleeting talks about reconciliation (which we've done before - hopeful but not holding my breath).
She is coming for dinner tonight. I will be dark today and my hunch is so will she so I won't know anything until about 6pm.
How was that for boundaries, rules, etc?
bigybiz - not bad, stay away from the R talks though unless she proposes them.
I don't know as if I would have done the temporary thing, I've really tried to hold my ground on that W was pushing it a little too much early on, wanting to stop by on her non-nights and I had to lay the line down. It's too easy to snowball and then you come off as being a hard-a$$ when you want to go back to the agreed days.
Good luck with Dinner tonight. as DR says, accept some but not all...
PacLove:
I'm OK with her coming over on "non nights" until July 1st. She has to relocate from where she is - that is a big problem. But her moving in on a in house basis is a no go for me.
bigy,
I think you handled it well. As Sandi would say your WAW has to do the work now to come back to the family.
Good luck this evening.
I'm looking forward to hearing Sandi2's reply to my post.
IMHO, you did fine, especially considering the short notice she gave.
I got the impression that she sees moving back to reconcile as being the less attractive option.
If she really misses her children, she'll be over more often to see them these next two weeks. However, if she comes over and doesn't spend quality time with them, then I tend to think she's missing her place more than the family.
Sandi2 - excellent stuff to think about and for me to watch for.
It's been a real roller coaster on the reconciling. Saturday it may have been a 4 out of 10. Sunday it was a 0 out of 10 Monday it was a 6.5.
I've implemented a strict bedtime for my youngest. That will be a real bell weather 1) to make sure she does not interrupt that routine 2) let's see what she does after - does she want to linger or run back to her place, etc.
I will try and mix it up a little so she does not see coming over as a new routine. Maybe one day I'll take the kids out etc.
Just dropping by to share my support bigy.
I don't have much advice for your current sitch, but I can imagine the mix of emotions.
Are you working with a DB coach? That is what I would do.
Keep on keeping on brother.
Well I the score is...
Follow along if you can
It was her night - but she came over to the house Bigy 1 W 0
I ran errand - Wore motorcycle gear in the house Bigy 1 W 0
She made dinner, I ate with them Bigy 0 W 1
She played board games and watched a TV with boys Bigy 0 W 1
At 9pm she left - S10 bed, bath routine Bigy 0 W 1
Very tempted to pursue, R talk etc - did not Bigy 1 W 0
Neither talked about moving, separation, etc Bigy 1 W 1
Yes, folks it's a tie game.
Tomorrow could be trouble. We have a family counselling session at 7:50 am - plus I have a client event in the early evening so I've "asked" her to come over and feed, etc. Hopefully, this will help mitigate her feelings of isolation, etc.
Gonna hold my breath and pray for patience, humility and wisdom for the day.
For those of you keeping score at home. How did I do?
Bigybiz
Goods my friend! Time will heal all no matter what the outcome.
Wow - not sure what's next. Family counselling went OK. Nothing really happened. He did agree that returning to in house sep would be a bad idea.
W agreed to start seeing the Dr to work on communication and collaboration issues.
After the family session - we did a little talk about moving, expenses, etc and some R talk.
She is ticked that she is paying into a house that her kids don't want her in. Also, that the kids are saying to her I have everything under control and they are fine.
I guess her cake is getting smaller. I don't want her in the house with me, the kids don't need her - that's why she is desperate to see them more. She has her dream job and her beloved community that is giving her pleasure. But, that is it.
I'm starting to rethink the MC as the only reason I would go is to reconcile. I originally pitched it as a way to connect. Now that seems like a bad idea.
I'm going to have to implement better barriers.
Biggy, I want to suggest something. How about not keeping score? This may be the way your mind works, IDK, but the very title of your thread even suggests you are seeing this as who wins and who loses.
I'm not as hung up about it as maybe some might be, but it could develop into a negative way of seeing you and your W.......if it hasn't already. It causes you to project a sense of being "one up" on your W, and she may be able to sense it. And, it could carry over into your job and other areas. If you are in a competitive business, I can get how you could mentally keep score, etc. However, when it comes to a MR, it is not healthy.
I also want to suggest something else. If you are not wanting your W to come home, then why go to MC? Why are you suddenly thinking that you need to start talking about reconciliation? You don't even want her there! Apparently, none of you want her there for the right reasons,......even her. I suggest a schedule be made for her to get the kids and take to her place. You'll quickly see if she really wants to be with them, or if she just misses her home.
I think when a couple moves back in together, they need to be in a much better place than the two of you seem to be at the moment. But, this is JMHO.
You don't want to fall back into those old habits again. You don't have to do something just b/c it's what she wants.
Sandi2:
Thanks for the insightful post yet again. Yes, I can see how the score keeping could look bad. I was trying to be humorous and give a play by play.
I'll start a new thread - if I can't change the name.
I really do feel that my WW/WAW is losing. She is so full of hurt, blame and resentment she is willing to give up everything to be with the community she loves and thinks is going to be there for her forever. The only thing that is there forever is your family (IMHO). Jobs, friends, hobbies, celebrity, success, etc all come and go.
She is really feeling the loss. She is living in one room in a friend's house. Who, BTW wants her out at the end of the month.
Her kids don't want her to visit this house and they don't love her visiting her there.
She is ticked that the house is running fine without her. S15 told me he does not miss her. They are equally harsh to me too. S15 told me it is too late for my marriage.
She told me this morning that she has given them everything except for past last year and now they don't want anything to do with her. Now she is going to be stuck living in a crappy basement and paying into a house she is not welcome in.
Is this not the kind of loss that you and your team think is the only thing a WW/WAW responds too.
But, your point is well taken. If I'm gloating in my posts - she is probably picking up on that too. I do think, I'm not doing so bad, I'm setting a course to be without her and it feels as bad as it once did. So detachment is coming slowly.
BTW, I want her back in the house - just not in an in house sep. I really put my foot down and said, either come home on a path to reconciliation or find a better place to live.
I want to go to MC but for reconciliation - I'll find out on Friday morning why she is going.
So here are my next steps I think.
We need to set new ground rules for visitation etc. She just can't come and go as she please from my home.
Keep on with my GAL.
Get back on my 180/LRT course.
She is living in one room in a friend's house. Who, BTW wants her out at the end of the month.
There's ^^^^^^ the reason she's truly wanting to get back home!
Is this not the kind of loss that you and your team think is the only thing a WW/WAW responds too.
My
team???
Here's the thing.......yes, she needs to feel loss of some type. However, your W is not responding in the right way, as for as considering reconciliation. She is angry and resentful, not remorseful. It may eventually come, but I'm not seeing the right type of response that's needed. You know, some people suffer loss and just get more stubborn, resentful, or whatever. On the other hand, some people suffer loss and it causes humility. Do you see your W being humble when she talks about going home?
Thank you Sandi2 you nailed it for me. Yes, her friend wants her to out of one part of the house and into another. I know she does miss the boys, etc. I think those two reasons are equal.
She is not being humble. She is getting more resentful, etc. We do have these fleeting convo's about reconciliation.
So I will continue on the path I have, my GAL is going well. I'm slowly detaching. I really do feel less "attached" and I really do feel like I'm going on with life a little more.
I'll continue to change the dynamics - stick to my convictions and try not to let her eat cake.
I'll make sure the schedule of her visits sticks to what we have previously worked out.
I'll go to the MC but I'm not sure what good it will do if she is not remorseful? Is it worth going to talk about communication, trust, etc?
Help, Help,
Calling all friends, supporters, and those with a big stick (that means you Sandi2, Cadet, Christy, etc)
W and I are going to MC earl Friday morning. Where do I start? Do we talk with the Dr about:
Communication
Money, Kids, House and Legal stuff
Divorce
Her EA
Reconcilliation
Trust
etc.
I'm fairly sure if I don't go with something specific to talk about it will end up being a storm.
Any ideas please
BB
What is most important for you right now?
How about communicating your boundaries in order to have her under the same roof and see where that leads with the MC.
Excellent question.
The most important thing is reconciliation go or no go. We have one issue that has stopped us from moving ahead on reconciliation.
She wants to travel to attend conferences, network, etc. That is a big issue for me. I said maybe and/or let's get help to figure it out.
We have had fleeting convos about reconciling and this issue keeps coming up and we don't resolve it. For me if we could resolve it great. If not that will determine the path.
Here are the details
Last year when she did she started an EA at a conference (that I was not happy about her going to). I suspected, snooped, I confronted her over and over (I thought it was a PA), she denied it. I then deceived and manipulated her to find out the truth.
To add to the issue, I contacted the OM told him to back off - he dropped her like a stone and she was mad.
So over the past 6 weeks this has come up. We don't have the communication, trust, honesty, etc to work this out. So it just lingers.
That is the most important issue to me.
What do you all think? Should this be the issue or is it too big? Should we find something else.
What solution does she suggest in order to be transparent with you to allow her to go to these conferences.
Wish I had a good answer. How many does your W want to go to? Maybe You can compromise on limiting the number per year?
Right now she does not think a compromise is needed. She keeps saying for her to come back I could not do anything to interfere with her work/career.
Do you all think this is too hot of a topic? Should I stick to something else?
What else should you talk about? Isn't the first step for her to come home? That is what she wants. If you can't communicate and come to an agreement with that topic how can you start to discuss improving communication and the other things you listed?
Which topic will give you a positive outcome?
JK: I don't know. Sometimes in life you strive to get agreement on small things first. That way you build trust, etc. I see this issue as 6 see shes it as a 10.
We could talk about, communication, next steps for divorce, visitation with kids, accommodation, etc
Sorry, I should have also said, that better communication is good topic no matter which way the relationship goes.
I agree still a good topic no matter which way.
JK - Thanks - I really value yours and everyone else's opinion. She has already "quit" MC before so I'm worried about taking on the big issues. I'd really hate to blow the opportunity for regular dialogue. But, on the other hand maybe it's best to lay it on the line and see what happens.
Bigybiz!
You gotta a lot going on now.
Are you speaking to a DB coach?
This may be a good time to get that specific info you look for.
I've been sitting on the side line now for 3 years, getting on with my life, and just leaving God to work on my spouse. Buckle-up bigybiz and try to make best of the quiet before the storm, because i'm sorry to say it will get worse before it gets better, and confusing as all hell. It will become the ride through hell only the strong and brave can endure. Heed the advice you get from these forums, and the best you can do is keeo reminding yourself, it's not you it's her problem to figure out, and DON'T TAKE ANYTHING PERSONAL! the posting i found extremely helpful for me to understand what the hell is happening are from Job, Cadet, Dellboy, Cyrena, and i got A LOT of valuable information from AmyC here's a link to Musing from AmyC she does a great job describing what she went through as an MLCer
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2253741&page=8
@bigybiz - sorry I also wanted to say that your wifes journey has just started, and much like in your situation we did MC in hope of fixing our situation, and quite honestly it's to early for counseling, and a waste of time. I can only speak for our situation, but it became very obvious my wife was only doing it to say she's trying. i'm not saying counseling is a bad thing, but for her I say it's to early, but foe you, IC will help you immensely to get your head straight. it takes about three months before you get through the shock of "what the hell happened!" you'll begin to feel better, and read, read, READ! the more knowledge you have of this crap, the better it'll be for you to deal with "HER PROBLEM"
Thanks for everyone's posts. Well the MC was not bad today. My expectations were higher than they should have been. Here is what did happen. For the 1st time, W did mention that her "withdrawal" from our relationship was a factor. Up until now it has all been about what I did and what I did not do.
Not sure if that is progress - but it was nice to hear.
Here is what did happen. For the 1st time, W did mention that her "withdrawal" from our relationship was a factor. Up until now it has all been about what I did and what I did not do.
bigybiz,
What terrible atrocities did you commit against your wife to cause her to withdraw from your marriage?
Seriously, your wife's admission may be a good sign; I hope she continues down that path. My wife admitted to the MC that "maybe" her friendship had gone a little further than it should have. By the next session, I was reinstated as the spawn of Satan and she had no memory the previous session. I'm not trying to rain on your parade, but my wife seemed to enjoy getting my hopes up only to dash them away shortly thereafter.
doodler: Thanks. We've been down that road a few times, not with MC but just between us. The stories change, the up and downs have been tough.
I guess I need to just accept that is just part of the process.
Well after a couple on instances of her talking about coming home - she is now telling me I was reading more into it than she was saying.
Developments: She is moving from her "crash" pad to a basement apt. She is going to visit the boys here. At first I was against it, then when I thought she was lonely I was for it. Now, I don't know how I feel. We eat meals together etc. I guess she is detached. I find sharing meals, etc quite personal.
I do know my pursuing - that was a response to her saying she'll come home was not received - not a surprise.
She has booked a six month lease. I'll need to come up with a bit of a plan I think. Need to keep on my GAL path, I keep looking for the elusive detachment.
I'm not looking forward to the summer:
D20 is moving out next week - very secretive about it???
S15 is away for most of the summer
S10 is home away for two weeks.
I was supposed to start a basement reno. Not sure just now. Feeling low, not keen to start a major project and then have to sell, etc.
It's a beautiful day in T.O. I was out on my motorcycle twice, D20 and I had a nice dinner out, now heading to meet a friend for drinks.
Still feeling low. I'll need to quit my addiction to her and find a way to keep moving ahead for me.
I look, feel, act very different from where I was months ago - still very empty. Considering I have so much going on, it's amazing how obsessed I am with her.
Sorry I missed your bat signal. I do want to respond to a couple of things.
Right now she does not think a compromise is needed. She keeps saying for her to come back I could not do anything to interfere with her work/career.
This should enlighten you and the counselor to the type of woman you are dealing with. Let me translate into the WW version of what she was saying. "I do not think a compromise is needed from
me. I intend to return on my own terms, and will proceed at calling all the shots".
The goal is not to just get her back into the house again. Many LBS's seem focused on that one aspect, instead of the whole picture with all the troubled issues. If the couple are living in separate places, that is the best time for him to state his boundaries about her coming back, and to require that both of them attend (and stick it out) MC to resolve the critical issues at hand. If she returns under her WW terms, he's basically had it.
Bigy,
Sorry you are having a rough weekend. I agree with Sandi's interpretation of what your W said.
Still feeling low. I'll need to quit my addiction to her and find a way to keep moving ahead for me.
I look, feel, act very different from where I was months ago - still very empty. Considering I have so much going on, it's amazing how obsessed I am with her.
Bigybiz,
Drop by my thread and read Vanilla's thoughts and wise advice for detaching . Very good strategies for putting it into practice.
Ripe also shares some wise words around this ever important and challenging act needed for us LBS's.
Your wife's roller coaster does not seem to be slowing down for anything or anyone of late.
Keep your chin up and your actions moving forward. The heart and mind will follow with time and consistent actions.
Man hug for ya my brother.
(((Bigy)))
Sandi2: You are so right.
The W is so focused on her story. She is the victim and now even the kids are her enemy. S 15 told her not to visit. We have retracted that she is now visiting (as opposed to her moving back in).
She is still harping on that. She is telling me that the kids and I told her she is not welcome in her house. Grow up.
So no remorse from her. I guess it is possible that it may never come.
I'm beginning to think the MC is a bad idea now. Maybe I should just let her lead that. It's probably a no win scenario.
Are you avail for DB coaching? I really liked by DB coach - it was very conciliatory. I think your approach is more of what I need?
Sandi2: One more thing. She keeps telling me I broke her i.e. neglect, financial mismanagement, etc. Never mentions her withdrawal from our MR or how she punished me etc, etc.
Is the only solution to this - she seeing the kids and I going on with our lives without her?
SH:
I did a search. I could not find any of the links you were talking about. Can you cut and paste them for me?
Also, how does the messaging system work?
Vanilla and Ripe share more on detachment This should link you to my current thread. The info are the last 2 posts.
Hope you find it as useful as I have .
Is the only solution to this - she seeing the kids and I going on with our lives without her?
The solution to what? The M problems? She seems to think
you were the problem. You say you have made a lot of improvements. So, do you still agree with her? If not, then why are you still listening to her b.s.? I know you are, b/c you are repeating all the crapola she said. It will keep you attached as long as you believe what she says.
The real problem is
not you. Do you know what it is? It is her wayward mindset. You could be next to perfect, but with her mindset the way it is, she would twist everything around and still blame you. If she won't cooperate; wants everything her way; and she is not willing to work with the MC, what can you do...........outside of rolling over and playing dead? That was what you were doing when you first arrived on the board, so you know that doesn't work too well.
If you don't want her back the way she is currently (WW), then you may need to see what legal steps to take in protecting yourself and the kids. If she planning to rent a basement apartment, hopefully she won't bulldoze her way into the house...........but you never know. I'm not telling you to D her, I'm just suggesting you protect yourself before she blindsides you with something else.
Then I suggest you leave her alone. Live your life to suit you and the boys. If she should decide to get on board, then she may try to bulldoze again.....and if she does, you tell her it won't work that way. When she decides to do whatever it will take to save the MR, then she will go to you, with the right attitude and ask you what it will take from her to save it. But she is not going to be impressed with your changes, as long as she can tell you she's moving back whether you like it or not.
Stop having meals together. If she's over and wants to eat with the boys, then you need to go somewhere else. Don't hang out as a family with her (watching tv, going out to eat, etc.). Frankly, I would check with the lawyer to see if you have to let her stay there when it's her turn to have the boys. She probably knows that is the only way the boys will stay around her.
Don't have "family" events with her. No invitations to things, as long as she remains this WW you see before you. Time to go as dark as possible. The good thing about having teenagers is that they can communicate for themselves and you don't have to be answering her text messages. You can tell her to call them direct, and if she whines that they won't answer.........,that is a problem between her and her boys. I think you should tell her so, and that she has to work it out with them, b/c that her relationship with the boys.
Whenever a WW removes herself from the family home and her H/ children.........she removes herself from the umbrella of "protection and care" that a H usually shows for his W. Maybe it's time she sees that side of her decision.
Time for you to be the one who calls the shots, and another reason you need to protect yourself legally.
Please start a new thread.
Job: Your timing is perfect
Sandi2:
Thanks - I really needed that. With the end of the school year the timing will be perfect. I don't want her back like this and if she continues to be this WW - I'll never be happy with her. D20 says her mum is a quitter. If she is truly quitting the MR - then it's time for me to move on.
If she is going to quit her new fascination/community/career in 3 or 5 years and come back - we will just have to see.
The going dark is easy - that I don't have any problems with. The detaching is a process. I'll stick with the MC as it was my idea and he does not take any nonsense from her. That's why she quit before. So I'll stick with it - but I will not bring up reconciliation at all.
New chapter ahead.
Sandi2: One more thing - is my W a WW or a WAW?
I used to think she was a WAW because of everything I did. But with her EA and refusing to acknowelge it as an EA and her being consumed in her work/community makes me think she is WW.
What do you think?
new thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2687818#Post2687818