14 days of sheer hell - part 4 - DivorceBusting.com

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@dream - distancing, leaving the house after we pray and put our S to bed tonight, going out by myself to watch a movie. Should be home at bout 1am.

Not sure if that's going to look suspicious because of last night when she came home late. She will want to know where i'm going but am going to stay mysterious. I need to be strong. I need to walk the walk too.

Also leaving her at home with S for mothers day, nice and early.

I think anytime your not around its mysterious, because at the very least they'll wonder where you are or when you'll be home. I thought of something I might do soon, have a friend come pick me up to go somewhere, that way when she gets home she'll think I am there (cause truck in driveway), and hopefully it will shock her more when I'm not..

As for your what she's saying about being together forever, it sounds like she realizes your starting to slip away and using empty words for a quick fix, keep it up and hopefully she realizes manipulation isn't working on you...

My problem with being mysterious is that I'm not a mysterious guy and I'm a terrible actor. However, I really liked what my DB coach said about GAL. He said find something that genuinely excites you and makes you happy; so happy that other people notice the bounce in your step. I've done a number of things throughout my life that were so captivating that it took my mind off of everything else and my excitement was infectious (or possibly annoying).

My point is, for someone like me (can't act, can't be mysterious) it's probably better to put energy into finding things that put a bounce in my step and takes my mind off of my marital issues. I think my wife would see right through the mysterious doodler.

Originally Posted By: DDJ

I have not really started improving myself, but i see what is sooo wrong with her more clearly. And i don't like what and who i see/saw. I might feel differently in a month or two, who knows.

Sounds like your focus is in the wrong place....

Dont worry about you relationship with W a month or two down the road. Focus on the now. And you.

That's also the other thing, she is getting absolutely no affection from me - if you don't get the "drug" that you've had for 10.5 years, you're going to miss it - cheating or not. You still need your fix.

I already placed a dinner voucher haphazardly in my wallet on the table. She won't ask me but will see it there. It's for two people and i'm going out by myself... mmmmhhh. Not sure when i'll be home too.

I know darknes, a little extrospection (not a real word).

Going to make the most of this wknd by myself, need to destress (still not a word) after last night. I've got to hold on a lot longer, for my own sanity.

I have 17 obj's, which include no intimacy and alcohol. I hit 14 on wed and only 10 yesterday. If i keep the as-if up for these few hours whilst i'm home today i will hopefully hit at least 15. The focus is on me, my thoughts though are still slightly on my WW. That's just being honest.

Originally Posted By: DDJ

I already placed a dinner voucher haphazardly in my wallet on the table. She won't ask me but will see it there. It's for two people and i'm going out by myself... mmmmhhh.

Same advice I just gave Coconut.

Dont worry about trying to manipulate W's thoughts.
Just live your life.

You should change your name to "lightnes".

Thank you.

I'm in my livingroom and The WW is sitting down. I'm about 3metres from her. She says, come give me a kiss. I shrug my shoulders and shake my head. She says, you know we're still married? I reply, we're not going to debate that we're still married. She says, so we're not going to debate that I'm your wife? To which I reply, No, we're not going to debate that you're still my wife. And I walk out.

So I'm getting done to go out, I shave, shower, iron clothes. She says, for someone that does not know where they're going, you're quite in a rush and looking very spiffy. I don't reply. Only stating that I need to leave at 8pm. She asks if I'm going with my Bro,or Bro in law. I say no. She asks me where I'm going and I say, not sure. Who I'm going with and I say, just by myself.

So I'm at a pub in our waterfront and set to watch Bad Neighbours 2. Need to destress and laugh. One red bull down should keep me going. I have never been this excited to watch a movie in my life.

I can literally feel two tiny testicals forming between my legs...

I'm starting to get this process now. Yesterday when my WW was crying about her dead mother, that she has no-one to support her, I just stared at her. I told myself that those are her tears, it's her pain. She needs to feel it. Her mother's been dead for 5 years and I always console her, without fail. I did not yesterday.

Also seeing the fact that she did not want me just on Monday but can't stop pursuing me today. Menzies are done tomorrow so wish me luck on Sunday. I spoke to my mother who really doesn't understand the counterintuitiveness of this all, but she summed it up quite nicely... The process gets the WS to want to want you again.

The best you, the real you that you gave up on, the you that will be the perfect life long partner. The affair is only an attention seeking exercise. If you seek attention, she will show you her worst. Walk away and she will follow your lighthouse. DAMN!

Originally Posted By: DDJ

The process gets the WS to want to want you again.

More or less.
The goal is to be the best you that you can be.
Which is attractive.

Nobody is attracted to a whiny, begging, pleading, lump of a man.

Originally Posted By: DDJ

Walk away and she will follow your lighthouse.

Careful.
She might follow you. Theres no way to know. Thats up to her.

Amen.

So my WW was very distant in MB during the night, compared to the previous few weeks, I can see how things can get worse before they get better. Her natural instinct is to rebel and run into OM arms. That's a scary thought.

Anyhows, she asks me this morning if i had fun - I said Yes. She asked where i went, and said nowhere. She then said "is this what we're coming to, where my loving husband doesn't tell me where he goes anymore." Now the old DDJ would have clearly stated "oh like you going to visit another male for lunch to try and F him?". SO THAT WAS A GOOD 180.

As for the movie last night, avoid if you have any values; running gag of a 2yr old playing with her mothers dildo - i can see one of them coming onto this forum very soon. It's insane for me to think that my value system and the world that i lived in were so incongruent. I used to complain that our South African soccer, rugby and cricket teams are all sponsored by SAB-MILLER and yet i'm the one buying jugs full of liquor at each event.

I don't know if i'm out of line but i think that some of our input does not really help the way we intend it to.

Whats required to deal with the A's are tough love. Tough love for ourselves, Tough love for our WSs and Tough love for each other. When are simply wishy-washy, we do not push each other to achieve more, we don't really build the confidence needed to get out of the rut. Just more of the same. Thats just my 2c.

That is why we love Sandi's posts, she says it like it is. But we need more Sandi's.

DDJ,

I think you're right about the tough love. Sandi does have a way of cutting to the chase and she pushes everyone to face reality. I think most of us appreciate someone who's willing to snap us back to reality.

Well my reality came back as always. It's the wife's nieces 1St bday, but she's also got a babyshower for a not so close friend, so she's not staying for the bday party. I'm here with our son. She never even came to greet her own brother,or meet the baby for the first time. This is nothing new in terms of stubbornness.

She's also set to go out with new click again tonight. Not sure how long before she finds and screws OM2. But 180ing very nicely and just validating everything she's saying.

An old friend is at the party and his wife cheated on him a few years back, got knocked up and now he's fathering that loose child. How do people do that? I don't want to imagine those 9 months and then poof, it's definitely not yours!

So the point of all of this, is Sandi says that the selfishness, stubbornness, rebellion must die. It must be replaced with willingness before they come around. I just don't see it happening.

Gotta stay the lighthouse for my son at least. Getting really close with him and disciplining him going well too.

Just got an unsolicited TM...

Listening to our wedding song and the words is still so perfect and what made us stronger. Mwah xxx

We chose Shania Twain, Still the one.

sooo your wedding song lyrics made your relationship stronger? sure!

The crazy fog

well, the wedding song brought her home yesterday... she came home after the baby shower. She said that she is committed to the marriage and wants to work as a team. she wants to go out together, dating. she has agreed to transparency - that is all that i asked from my side. She had good support where she was for the day, old faithful friends.

she was very clear about me not giving her ultimatums, which i have no doubt will see her fleeing again. She cried saying that its hard to not hear "i love you" back from me, and lack of intimacy. i said "i still have a broken heart and i am not sure when i can let you in again as you need to build trust". she said that shes willing to wait, as long as it takes.

it's pretty clear that she's still in the fog. going to be for quite a while. Do i lower my wall, make sure that i don't allow her to cake eat and still focus on amended goals?
I still plan on being distant, detach, 180 and some GAL activities.

i should finish the DR book by the end of the week so that will help, but right now i need some vets help pls.

Dude, good work. Unfamiliar territory for me though (not there yet by a looooooong shot). You are very new to this whole thing, but perhaps by now your intuition started kicking in. Intuition = gut feeling. What does your gut feeling say?

What ever you do, just remember to have no expectations and be sure the stuff you do is for you and not just to spite/punish your W...

Stay strong...

Thx Vapo. Intuition is all I've got for now. So I forgot to say happy mothers day. My Bro living with me comes in and says it. I'm trying to sleep, she comes in and says that she's going to her dad right now for mothers day because I never said it. She asked why. I said that I forgot. Was actually not intending to say it at all. Still not said it, not going to.

So I awake 1 hour later and she's still in house, not going anywhere. I'm off to my own mother's day with my family. Whilst she puts our S to sleep for his afternoon nap. When I return I said I'll take her out, as a family.

It appears that the dynamics have changed. I will always have to accept that she can go when and where she wants. But she will have to accept that her going does not even make me blink.

DDJ,

I could care less about "special days" (father's day et al) and holidays, but if I forget to say something to my wife and/or forget to get a gift, then she'll hold a grudge for years.

I hope you have a wonderful Mother's Day.

DDJ, caution.... She is saying all the right things. People are good are doing that especially if they are trying to trick you. Actions, actions, actions.... You should already have an idea of what you would need in actions BEFORE you consider lowering your walls.

Personally for me, it would take weeks if not months before I would let them down, and I would continue GALing, DB, as if. I would after a time maybe in MC only, begin to let them down. I wouldn't suggest MC either, as I already have many times long ago. It didn't take me days and a few words to trust W in the first place, it definetely wouldn't now. Patience, patience, patience...

Nothing has changed except for her words. I'm not sure why you're changing your course/actions for what she has said. You won't tell her "happy mother's day" but you'll take her out as a family? That makes no sense.

She isn't showing any remorse for her actions of seeking out OM. She hasn't signed up for any counseling sessions to improve herself. Nothing. has. changed.

Yep, not lowering my walls, she was asking to spend time together, perhaps cake eating, who knows, too late now...

This is most likely going to end in D, as I can see that any "transgression" on my part will definitely see her fleeing and rebelling. My mothers day lunch has run over. Was supposed to be home by 2pm, and got here at 3-15. Kept her updated on timelines throughout and she and my S are not here. She's also not answering her phone or acknowledged any of my TMs. She clearly made plans at about 1:30 to be gone. Only getting second car tomorrow so dont know where she is or who she with since she not with her sis. It definitely does not matter.

This is my life now and I need to deal. I don't feel like i'm in limbo though, because I am not on her roller-coaster anymore. It would be asking too much for some consideration, I guess.

So when she does return, I need to focus on 180 and validation. Going to relax and watch some footy. Been out for 3 days straight so not going to do anything besides being in the moment.

Happy Mothers Day to all out there that deserve it.

I am brought out a fresh roll of tissue paper so that I could ball my eyes out at where i am in my life. But i've still not.

My appetite is back for the first time in hours (took my mothers day lunch take-away), i'm focusing on getting the new car tomorrow which is making me feel better.

just got a TM that shes at a restaurant down the road. taking my time to get there.

So as I'm sitting here with my son watching the same movie for the third time this wknd. I'm relaxed, living in the moment.

I think about lunch, how anxious I was at the thought that me being late could end my M. What could my WW be thinking now. Every TM to inform her of my delay could be the next nail in my coffin.

Why do I give the thoughts that someone else could be thinking, such power over myself? Why do I need someone else to need me before I have an appetite?

If this is love, then I never want to feel it again. But I know it's not love, it's irrational, it's stupid. I'm looking forward to giving and feeling real love soon...

I think I'm falling in love with myself. Actually getting goosebumps as I type that, with a smile all over my face.

SO my thread is turning into more of a blog, at least that's how i feel. I watched EAT, LOVE, PRAY tonight for the first time. I had always avoided it but for some reason it was on my on-demand service and i thought that i needed something for my soul.

For those that have not seen it before, please do. For those that saw it before BD, i suggest that you watch it again. It contains everything that we're experiencing now, but mainly seen from the WWs POV. There are LBSs, WASs and WHs. SPOILER ALERT - The movie is really about forgiveness, not for the WS, but for yourself. You cannot find peace until you forgive yourself for what you did wrong. There is no moving forward if you are stuck in the past.

I've been awake for the almost 2 hours thinking about this concept. No anxiety, but at peace with myself. I even think that i gave myself to God. Not in the usual Bible bashing way, but rather understanding that I am not in control of my own life, rather a higher power is.

I was also thinking about al-anon and insanely their office here is only 3km down the road. I'll be contacting them tomorrow and hope to partake in my first meeting this week. The 12 steps resound so closely to the principles that are preached by the vets here. I guess it is about letting go...

WE'RE ALL ADDICTED TO OUR WSs. Thats why we need to be in their face, in the MB with them. If someone is addicted to cocaine, and you take them out of that environment then they may start again once back with their bad friends when released.
However, imagine keeping them in that environment and forcing them to stop using cocaine on their own. Asking them to evaluate their lives, what they want, what they need and you will find the purpose of DBing.

OUR WSs ARE ALSO ADDICTED TO US. They need us to need them so that they can satisfy their waywardness. They need us to cry so that they can say "he wants me, he needs me, let me show him what he can't have." The minute we lose our addiction to them, they MAY just open their eyes and see the lighthouse. The willingness that Sandi speaks of is them losing their addiction too.

I am finding enlightenment and I hope that the rest of you can find it too.

oh one more thing, I spoke about appreciating the small things in life but never really knew what it meant. I think i do now...

I find myself praying and being thankful for everything during the day, literally, as i'm walking i'm praying and giving thanks. Like spending time with my family. Enjoying the sunny day. Taking my son to the arcade. Being at peace.

so done blogging, back to my WW... here's her emails and my replies:

You want us to work and I can see you very emotional about it but once again your stubbornness is getting in the way, pushing me away is not gonne bring me closer to you.
I love you so very much, its time to let go of your fears of getting hurt and time to let go of us.
You decide.

I'm not sure what you mean by the last sentence... When you say let go of us, are you still talking about divorce or the past?

I don�t want divorce, and I am talking about you!!!!!!!
You need to decide what you want, pushing me away last nite than you cant sleep, I am a young female and I need intimacy that I want from my husband but my husband is pushing me away once again, what am I supposed to do with that??use my pink buddy? That you get upset about?? I can only tell you what I think but I cant read your mind.

I'm def not going to respond anytime soon. Its 9am now and will probably do so at round 3pm. Give her something to think about for the day.

I think my ideal response would consist of me saying, as i did yesterday, "that my heart is still broken and I cannot let you in yet." As for her sexual drive, yes that s at its peak now but i fought her off very quickly yesterday, she turned her back and went straight to sleep. I think I should tell her to just keep her pants on for as long as she can. Is that not her showing commitment, or am i really just controlling her - or is it a boundary that I cannot be with someone (yet) that was having an affair?

I'm not sure what to do. But for now i'm doing nothing.

Very interesting. Wow. Sounds like there is still some crazy dog there. So she was in A. Now she's back basically demanding sex from you? Is that remorse? Is that understanding? Woman tend to have sex when they are emotionally connected to someone or are trying to get the man to connect. Is this her normal sex drive or is she trying to trap you? Men tend to have sex to get emotionally connected.

I know that if I cheated and really cared about the person, I wouldn't be demanding sex or pushing. I would be very understanding of the process to get back to healthy status. It is healthy to have sex, it will bring you closer, but at the right time.

i'm onto chpt 6 of the DR book, going to reread about 20 times though. But this is what i'm thinking of sending in reply to her email... what do you think?

"I want us to be closer. I want us to not stay so far apart. I want to trust you again. I want to let you in."

well, she has always had a great sex drive. we used to have sex about 4 times a week before baby. now its 2 to 3 times a week. but she has always been the one initiating. i know that that needs to change. its been something that we've discussed over the years and i never changed, and it makes her feel vulnerable.

we always used to say "come we F", and it was never about making love. i know that that needs to change too, from my side before she will possibly change.

i dont want to withhold intimacy if its pushing her away, but i dont want her to cake-eat either. i know that if she's satisfied that she wont look elsewhere but right now i'm not too sure...

DDJ, 99% of the male population on these boards would give the left nut to be in your shoes right now and 99% of those would ravage the poor girl.

What exactly is your game plan here?

i'm 100% sure that my new nuts also want that!

Well she does not want to leave, but still making plans to go out without me. She is selfish but still does selfless things. This is the most critical point over these 3 months.

I am thinking of showing her just enough "love" to keep her hanging on. I need her to continue to pursue whilst maintaining my leadership role within the R.

Its her bday wknd and i let her spend her mothers day alone, i never even wished her, i could sense her sense of loss but i let her feel that. Let me experiment and spend and wish her for her birthday. Let's see which experience will have the best impact. I just don't want to push her away whilst i'm trying not to push her away. Going to have to compromise on one or two goals.

Next wknd we're off on a 4 day holiday together and I will have a better idea of how to play that.

oh yes, she's also saying "i love you" and expecting me to reply but i'm not. Do i say it back?

Have you thought of talking with her? I know that is a R talk... If she is going to recommit to the marriage, she is to me made aware of the terms of the marriage. That is just my opinion, I could be wrong though, because I am no where near where you are...

Take care buddy..

You say you don't want to push her away. You want to trust her again. You want things to work out... have you told her what she needs to do in order to start working things out? What are the requirements? You don't need to share any feelings about yourself, but I don't see any harm in sharing what you need from her BEFORE you can consider getting back together. I have yet to read anything about her working on herself throughout this time.

My interpretation of her emails is that she's looking for some action and she's looking to get it from you... but she's not remorseful for looking elsewhere and she hasn't even begun to fix the waywardness inside of her.

well still no R talk, but intend on saying something along these lines:

I do not want to push you away, I know that mothers day was difficult for you, it was also difficult for me to not to wish the mother of my child. It is your birthday wknd so you need to let me know how you want me involved and I will gladly spend that time with you.

As for intimacy, I understand that you need it and I do want to let you in. What type of intimacy do you want right now?

For now I just want to know how you feel. I will not reply to you right away, but give me some time to think about what you're saying and i'll let you know what I think later this evening.

Thank you for being honest with me.

DDJ,

I don't generally like R talk, but I think Vapo may be right; maybe it's time for some R talk.

I had R talk with my wife this morning (she's planning on moving out today) and it went really well. Now that we've talked, I know more about my behaviors (good and bad) from her perspective and I think she has a better understanding of some of my issues with her. Maybe the two of you are at a good point in time to have a little calm R conversation.

I don't see how your message to her will help your relationship.

@dream - I don't think that it will help the relationship, but i also do not believe that it will take me back a step. She had a choice to roll over last night and take out her pink buddy, be needy and desperate - instead, she chose to go to sleep. That tells me that she is not being "as" selfish as last week.

She is almost certainly no longer in contact with OM. I cannot be 100% sure. But i'm still not initiating any contact whilst at work. Making sure that i 180 whenever she could look for a reaction.

As for her feedback to my convo to her above, she says that "my actions spoke very large yesterday, for me to not even wish her". She is starting to think that I don't care about her anymore. I will continue to GAL, going to start Al-anon, and hitting my daily goals. She said that she's fine with me not replying that I love her, "until i am ready".

@doodler, I am not going to initiate any R talk, I want her to do that. She's still talking about our planned trip to Europe next year, "God willing".

Am I reading this correctly that you are calling her using a vibrator as "selfish"?

Also, I don't believe that a communication is neutral. You're either moving forward or backwards. I agree with dream that your note won't move you forward...soooooo....

@darknes and dream - what do i do?

so WW plans to spend saturday into her bday on sunday partying with new crew (BFF bro). I asked if I was going to join, and she said that i'm not drinking anymore so I will just get upset that she would be drinking. I told her that it is unacceptable for a married woman to go out with other strange men. To which she said that it is BFFs bro.

I know the waywardness is still deep, as she's saying that she made these plans yesterday when i never came back on time from lunch. My gut is to let her go, but how do i distance myself when I do believe that her going could be the last opportunity that she will have to cheat, before she goes back to playing a wife. I still have that irrational fear.

I am going to 180 it, but if she does go out without me it will be clear indication that she does not want to make the M work. I can't tell her that (can i), but those actions will speak enormous volumes. I cannot put in any boundaries, besides "walking away" when she returns on sunday. It will be a sad day, but something i have to do to protect myself.

i think i'm being impatient but that would be the final nail in the coffin. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Anything i could do before then?

Yes i am calling that selfish and rebellious, since she can't have my "vibrator", she's using the next best thing, and taunting me by laying next to me too.

If that is moving me backwards, what do i do about her plea for intimacy and spending time together?

Quote:

so WW plans to spend saturday into her bday on sunday partying with new crew (BFF bro). I asked if I was going to join, and she said that i'm not drinking anymore so I will just get upset that she would be drinking. I told her that it is unacceptable for a married woman to go out with other strange men. To which she said that it is BFFs bro.

You're trying to tell her what to do. You're trying to control her. You haven't detached. She's using your lack of drinking as an excuse to not invite you. If reconciling with you was anywhere on her radar, you certainly would be included in her birthday plans.

Quote:

I know the waywardness is still deep, as she's saying that she made these plans yesterday when i never came back on time from lunch. My gut is to let her go, but how do i distance myself when I do believe that her going could be the last opportunity that she will have to cheat, before she goes back to playing a wife. I still have that irrational fear.

This is why you have your goals. DETACH!!!!! Focus on yourself!! You cannot control her, or anyone else. This whole time you could have been focusing on yourself and building yourself into a person that only a fool would cheat on.... but instead you've been playing games and "experimenting" with the DB techniques.

Quote:

I am going to 180 it, but if she does go out without me it will be clear indication that she does not want to make the M work. I can't tell her that (can i), but those actions will speak enormous volumes. I cannot put in any boundaries, besides "walking away" when she returns on sunday. It will be a sad day, but something i have to do to protect myself.

Yes. This is a very clear indication/action as to what she wants. This is why her words mean nothing! No need to tell her what her actions are telling you. She knows this. She's been trying to string you along. What do you mean, you will have to "walk away" on Sunday? Do what you've been saying you're going to do. Your goals!

Quote:

i think i'm being impatient but that would be the final nail in the coffin. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Anything i could do before then?

What does this mean? If she goes her to birthday party with you, that's the final nail in the coffin? We can't predict what she may or may not do. I'm feeling like a broken record here... what you can do - focus on yourself.

What were you goals again? You said you've been nailing them every day... but this post says otherwise.

OK, you are sounding like a broken record, because I am a broken record. I need to up the ante on my goals. I had included that I would have no intimacy but not sure when I can let that one down. Can i ever drop that goal? I can definitely keep it going. I am much stronger but her whiley way to want to try and make things work has gotten me, again.

I am being the best that I can be but the wknds always come too soon. I am definitely doing the rest. Does it matter that she thinks that I do not care? I'm actually caring that she thinks that I do not care. Fck !!!

OK, this has happened every wknd for the last 3 now. I let my guard down each time. Then regroup for the week.

As for walking away, we'll thats just me being an idiot as always.

So I put my S to sleep. Got dressed, told her not to wait up for me and I left. Can't wait for my car tomorrow. Never got it today.

Am sitting in the car overlooking Cape Town at night, from the mountain. What a beautiful view. I've been here many times before. With my XGF, my WW. It's kinda fitting for right now. I think I'll make this my place for when I leave. I feel bad for my son but I need to do this for me, while he's sleeping obviously.

I am detaching, but how do I protect my heart.my head is good. Got that under control now. I can stop the intimacy. Not an issue. But how do I stop my heart from feeling. How do I stop her from getting back in?

DDJ.. It's ok to vent on here and to say that you want to walk away even. Bi say it often, and each time I do it becomes more realistic of an option and harder to stay put. That is ok with me, it's part of detachment. It's hard to walk with conviction and stay true to our beliefs. If it wasn't difficult, our WWs would be loving, caring, and committed. At times I think their way is the easy way out, that's why the tend to follow that path.

I try to think of my WW as a lost sibling, one that always breaks my trust, borrows money and never pays it back. I still care about him/her but cannot let them run my life or worry me to death. I would have guards and walks up for them, why not a WW. Even a brother would have to make strides to repair trust.

This is her latest TM....

I'm so worried cos I feel once again I did something wrong, please come home. Unless you feel like you with someone better than me.

My mother believes that I need her to feel the weight of her decisions.and that I should move out with my Bro mid June indefinitely. Let her fend for herself as a single mom.

I'm still going my to hit my goals and know that it's not recommended. What do you guys think?

Thx Ralph. I can see her as a bad sister. Just gotta refocus. I can do anything that I put my mind to. Still fighting with my heart though. Keep losing that battle. I will find a way. I have no choice.

I clearly need better boundaries to protect myself. Needs to be tangible, because this intangible thing does not work. Will figure out something and play it back tomorrow. I'm thinking like a juvenile in terms of action, but I believe that that's what my poor heart needs.

I cannot make my WWs life uncomfortable, but also cannot make it comfortable.

Do not leave unless that is what you want. Do not leave house or mbr. Do not ask her to leave either. That is her choice. I would not leave my kid either, without clear 50 50 custody or better. I personally don't see leaving as getting you closer to your goals.

Originally Posted By: DDJ

My mother believes that I need her to feel the weight of her decisions.and that I should move out with my Bro mid June indefinitely. Let her fend for herself as a single mom.

I'm still going my to hit my goals and know that it's not recommended. What do you guys think?

So....how's focusing on you going?

What is best for you?

DDJ, I found this thread, it's a LBW who pieced her R to soon. She has great insight as to the pitfalls and is now fighting to not be a WAW herself...

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2670289&page=1

Thx all. I think it's testament to my mental state that I got into bed at 11-30 last night and slept all of the way until 6-10 this morning. What a great sleep. I'm ready to take on the world.

I can't promise that my heart won't be paining on Saturday tho. But that's Saturdays problem.

As for focusing on me, that's still going well. Just one bad day where I let the evil in. Got to get better at this, got to. I know what's best for me, staying away from the toxicity. Keeping my son safe too.

I do believe that I have the blueprint to be the type of guy that no-one would dream of leaving. Going to keep keeping on.

As for moving out, I'm not for it. The day will come when we will have to part ways. I look forward to helping her out, should that be her choice.

I got to admit, I don't understand completely what you're doing...

What is the situation with WW and her EA? Has she ended it? It sounds like she wants to stay married and fix things? I guess I don't understand your approach and what your goals are...

Are you working through the Divorce Remedy chapters?

I'm still on her roller-coaster it appears. I think she's done with OM1 and is either trying to find OM2 or simply rebelling by going out when and where she wants.

It wholly appears that she wants to stay married. I do not doubt that. But she still wants to come and go as she pleases too. I thought that letting her in a little would help to deposit a few trinkets into her love bucket, but alas. Not even that has caught her attention.

She says that I take no responsibility for my actions, not wishing her on mother's day. I am pretty selfish at times, I must admit. But trying to deal with that too.

Latest TM from her...

I'm am trying to make us work and you don't give me a chance. I'm sorry I don't feel like I want to spend the Saturday into my bday with you but with all that have happen can you blame me and than once again you get your back up. Sunday we can have lunch and spend time together but I feel once again you gonne leave me alone. Something you been doing so well this pass 2months

She is clearly wanting to cake eat.

It sounds more like a power battle between the two of you, to me.

It definitely is. Its about who can out do the other, from her perspective. It's always been a power battle in our R though. I always used to win, and now she believes that she's strong enough to become the alpha.

Any ideas - I did tell her that if she stays home, i'll stay home. If I go out, then she can come with. If she goes out then I go with too. It's her decision really so let's see what she comes back with. This is just a test of her willingness. Tomorrow's always another day.

Unsolicited email from her...

I cant and wont rebuild this marriage by myself as I am not the only one that brought us to where we are today.
My son however deserve a mother and a father. So pull yourself together!

What do i do? If i focus on myself, she says i'm not trying. If i focus on her, everyone says i'm not DBing. I can't give up!

The fact that she wants to go without me, making up silly excuses, is not wholly indicative of a power struggle tho. It's entitlement that she's looking for. Selfishness really.

What a mixed bag of shyt i have.

WOW - just hit me - she started something with someone because i (almost) started something with someone. This is entitlement.

She does say that I started this when I almost kissed another girl...

How do we stop this self-destruction?

I may have missed a few pages from your threads but what I have read seems to be game playing.

Your W has consistently said and pushed to work on M. Why not go down that road. Determine what you want in a M and what she needs to do. It goes without saying you need to work on your side of things regardless.

Why not give her the chance to SHOW you she wants to work thus out? It will soon enough be apparent whether she is committed or not

You need to figure out what you want and take steps towards that.

i'm trying both avenues roist; yesterday I said "i'll join you for your bday" and she says "that she does not want me with". I told her this morning, "do you think that you going out on your bday without me is trying to make the M work" to which she could only answer "no". Then i get the unsolicited email that she wants to make the M work.

She's been confused from day 1, one foot out and one foot in. I have no doubt that I would not have been here if it was not for me DBing, I know that I need to keep on doing it - but how do i continue if she perceives it as me doing the same old thing and being distant and putting her second.

I know that for this to work, I need to put her first, be the knight in shining armour right now. That goes against DBing - i'm just as confused!

if i think about what was working, saturday she stayed at home and never went out with the crew, she wanted to spend time together. On sunday i put my mother first and leave her and don't wish her on mothers day, then she makes plans to get back at me on her bday.

I think i know what to do...

WOW...

More and more it seems to me, that she is just "pretending" to work on the marriage, so she has an excuse if you blow your lid. She needs an audience to show that you ended the marriage even though she is the one who is wayward. She needs to feel that she is the victim (and believe you me, that in her twisted logic she actually believes she is the victim here...).

She would benefit from a good thrashing, I can't believe it's a felony...

All joking aside, she does not respect you. I think (and I might be wrong, I have been known to be wrong in the past) that I would talk to her that leaving marital home and going partying with other people is not working on the marriage. And I would leave at that. After that actions will speak louder than words...

Its really about her always wanting to be one-up on me. Everything i do, she wants to do, and even more so. Coming in late, I did 3am. She does 5am. Flirting with other girls, she does EA.

I know that she does not respect me and there is still no remorse, no real willingness to change. I can try to put her first, as she wants, that might keep her at home. But i don't want to keep her at home really (even though i state differently), I want her to make her mind up. That's another reason why i got 2 cars, so that she can either hang herself or me or commit. But at least something is going to happen, besides limbo land.

I really post too much. Better forum diarrhea than verbal hey.

So yes, she's seriously trying to make me out to be the bad guy. Probably going to tell the world bout how she tried to make it work, never even went out without me. How i never wished her happy mothers day, I disregarded her and went out whenever I wanted, blah blah blah.

FOCUS DUSTIN FOCUS. The end game is not her, it's me.

I don't think that I should entertain any R conversation from her, regarding saving of the M at all. She is definitely using our S as bait to keep me hooked and her cake-eating. She knows that I want no harm done to him. Meanwhile, this is doing more harm than anything else.
I need to just watch her actions. I could say "i'm not ready to talk about making us work" - could that work?

She was even using my loathe for her "pink buddy", as a way to get me to have sex with her. LOL

I cannot have my EYES WIDE SHUT!

so i send her this via email, some back and forthing...

Regardless of what i did to you, NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING has WARRANTED what you did, and are still doing to me today.

oh, I still want to go for supper.

This is her classic response...

Sorry we are very busy today.
Supper sound great.

It is clear that there is no affection, only clinging on to get what she can.

Originally Posted By: DDJ

Unsolicited email from her...

I cant and wont rebuild this marriage by myself as I am not the only one that brought us to where we are today.
My son however deserve a mother and a father. So pull yourself together!

What do i do? If i focus on myself, she says i'm not trying. If i focus on her, everyone says i'm not DBing. I can't give up!

Not sure if this is the best response, but my effort anyway:

"I agree that this marriage takes both of our complete energy and focus in order to be successful. I am taking some time to evaluate my ability and desire to provide that. Regardless of the outcome of our relationship, our son will always have his father in his life."

DDJ,

It almost sounds like she's DBing you. Maybe I'm misunderstanding something. Her response may not have had affection, but it didn't show anger and she agreed to supper. Why do think she's just trying to get what she can?

Originally Posted By: DDJ

so i send her this via email, some back and forthing...

[b]Regardless of what i did to you, NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING has WARRANTED what you did, and are still doing to me today.

WHAT????

So you blame her and play victim? And minimize your impact. The trifecta!

Where is your validation? How in the heck did you think she would respond? What was your goal with this?

mmmmhhh, Trifecta you say. Never thought about that.

well, if any good has come out of it, I feel "better" knowing that my WW does not care about me at all.

I needed to uncover the motivation for her pleas for attention, intimacy and looking after my S. I know exactly where it is now. Now i need to prepare for Saturday, going to GAL as much as possible this week.

[/quote]
Not sure if this is the best response, but my effort anyway:

"I agree that this marriage takes both of our complete energy and focus in order to be successful. I am taking some time to evaluate my ability and desire to provide that. Regardless of the outcome of our relationship, our son will always have his father in his life."[/quote]

Very nice darknes, will save this one.

DDJ,

Do you think your wife doesn't care for you because of her response, "Sorry we are very busy today"?

Why do you think your wife has ulterior motives with regard to her pleading for attention and intimacy?

Well doodler, there is no empathy in her response. I expected a hint of it, if as she says she wants to make things work.

I cannot show empathy either, is what I am thinking. Sympathy definitely, and I guess that is validating.

I don't know how I mess up every day, and every day I have to start over again. I feel like things are going somewhere though. Not sure if that helps, not sure the direction.

Why are you expecting empathy from her when you can't provide it?

That's what validating is: empathizing. Showing that you understand and acknowledge their thoughts, opinions, and feelings.

When you say "regardless of what I did", it minimizes her feelings. It invalidates her pain. It shows that you're keeping score and comparing your hurts.

Her world is the green apple. Stop trying to convince her it isn't.

Isn't providing empathy me giving in to her cake eating? I guess it's not. Is that what I've never been doing?

Have I never acknowledged her thoughts, or feelings.

One last question. How do I show empathy on her birthday. I plan on wishing her and letting her spend the day the way she wants. But what if she wants me with. Do I go?

DDJ,

In my opinion, you're original email seemed a bit angry and it sounds to me like you wanted to start some R talk. Her response to you was that she was busy right now and that she would like to have supper with you. She did a good job of deflecting your anger and accepting your invitation. And, she probably was very busy. I think her response to you was very good.

In addition, she wants your attention and affection. I think you're sabotaging yourself by pushing away.

If she wants you to go with, go with...

I am realising that I am my own worst enemy. I am irrational. I am all over place.i am inconsistent.

Who wants someone like that. I think now that OM 1 is supposedly out of the picture, I'm creating a WAS!!!

When this whole thing started, she didn't want to say "i love you", was repulsed by my touch, was all over the place emotionally and didn't want to be around me.

Why is that me now?

Have you read on the Divorce Remedy book and done the work? If you haven't, you can't expect results.

It seems to me that you are reconsidering your entire role in the R and that probably leaves you feeling like you don't know what to do instead of what you used to do.

Maybe you could write down what you feel your role has been in the M, good and bad, and what you would like to continue to do, and what you want to change and to what. What do you think you should ideally do in the role as husband?
(Don't make a list like that for W.)

Maybe going back to the very basics can help you see where you agree and where you disagree, and it would take the focus away from the day to day stuff.

Thanks Painter for putting it into perspective. I took a train home and my WW picked me up at the station. As I walk towards the car, she always moves to the passenger seat. That is indicative of the role of the husband, the alpha male.

I got into the car, i said "i've been irrational, emotional, inconsistent and all over the place - how does that make you feel?" She said, " i think you have like bi-polar and i'm not sure who's going to be communicating with me" (jokingly).

I then said, "yesterday, when you said you want to go out on your bday eve without me, I did not ask you why, try and understand your reasons, i just reacted, so why?" To which she said, "well we're not in a good place, you're all over the place really and I don't think I'm going to enjoy myself with you around like that".

So, in the few hours that i've been home, I have validated, 180'd and did what worked. She is actually reading out her whatsapp messages to the guys on the new crew and tells me to trust her. They do want to go out again on Thursday and then Saturday again, so my heart will have to deal. I never reacted.

I said that I'm going out friday (cos i can really). She has asked that I tell her where i go and she will tell me where she goes. I will be a bit mysterious about it again. Need to keep her interest. She did bring up that with me going out "once a cheater, always a cheater". So i guess that I was right about her insecurity last week.

As for her own bday, she says that she wants to spend the time alone with me, and go on a date. So i'll give her what she wants (cautiously). I think that I had distanced to the point of being too cold. I was definitely pushing her away... not detaching.

Only one concern, she is definitely not in contact with OM, and says that he meant nothing, was just an infatuation - i do not foresee an apology anywhere in the near future. But that's future Dustin's problem. Right now, I watch and detach.

And i've got 40 pages left from chpt 7 to go. I'm going to re-read until I know it off by heart. I have implemented alot of it, and like i said - I have no doubt in my mind that my WW would have been lost forever, if it was not for the LRT and everyone on this forum - even doodler :-)

She's still in the fog, I can see that. I need to be patient.

It sounds like Dustin is making great progress. Good for you!

Yeah dood, I realised that i was doing everything that i did not want to do. I'm smarter, than she could be vindictive. Oh yes, that's also using AS-IF principle.

Originally Posted By: DDJ

Thanks Painter for putting it into perspective. I took a train home and my WW picked me up at the station. As I walk towards the car, she always moves to the passenger seat. That is indicative of the role of the husband, the alpha male.

I got into the car, i said "i've been irrational, emotional, inconsistent and all over the place - how does that make you feel?" She said, " i think you have like bi-polar and i'm not sure who's going to be communicating with me" (jokingly).

I then said, "yesterday, when you said you want to go out on your bday eve without me, I did not ask you why, try and understand your reasons, i just reacted, so why?" To which she said, "well we're not in a good place, you're all over the place really and I don't think I'm going to enjoy myself with you around like that".

So, in the few hours that i've been home, I have validated, 180'd and did what worked. She is actually reading out her whatsapp messages to the guys on the new crew and tells me to trust her. They do want to go out again on Thursday and then Saturday again, so my heart will have to deal. I never reacted.

I said that I'm going out friday (cos i can really). She has asked that I tell her where i go and she will tell me where she goes. I will be a bit mysterious about it again. Need to keep her interest. She did bring up that with me going out "once a cheater, always a cheater". So i guess that I was right about her insecurity last week.

As for her own bday, she says that she wants to spend the time alone with me, and go on a date. So i'll give her what she wants (cautiously). I think that I had distanced to the point of being too cold. I was definitely pushing her away... not detaching.

Only one concern, she is definitely not in contact with OM, and says that he meant nothing, was just an infatuation - i do not foresee an apology anywhere in the near future. But that's future Dustin's problem. Right now, I watch and detach.

It's hard for me to relate to this alpha male thing. H tried at times to act cocky and domineering and I didn't know how to react. It actually came through as insecurity to me - which would be natural at this point, but to a woman, it might be interpreted as you feeling weak - which is the opposite of what you want to display. I'm thinking along the lines that a guy who knows he's the strongest, never picks a fight because he has nothing to prove. Makes sense?

Good for you on validating. I still hear some control and manipulation in there, though. I don't think you need to keep her interest by playing on her insecurities and jealousy, which you have said were warranted.

I think she's fighting for her personal freedom. She may be doing it in inappropriate ways, but she wants to be an independent adult. Having a child can make women feel very differently about who they are.

A close friend was just diagnosed with bipolar disorder at 50+, and she wishes she had known decades ago to get help and make better choices for herself in life.

I was thinking that too, that the sexes on this forum must find it hard to understand how each one reacts to the other. A strong man does not question himself, he's confident and is always listening to make sure that he makes the right decisions, for the household.
This must be hard for strong women like the ones on this forum. Us men need to learn to lead of R and not the W. You women need to learn to let your H lead, which goes against the whole feeling, but i guess that's what 180 is about.

I was looking to buy porridge for my son, as i have a non-sugar fetish, and my WW said, don't look at the sugar content because then you're just going to start analysing. I took it and said thank you, for forcing me to lose some control. But yes, the mystery is to keep her thinking of me, not necessary manipulating her. If i had said, i'm meeting a girl, then that would probably be manipulation.

She is definitely fighting for her personal freedom, and I either give her the space to do that or lose myself (and her). I must trust her, I don't have a choice. She is now talking to a friend who was also a WW, has a second child with a different man and is pushing my WW to make things work. A support system does alot to help people find or lose themselves. The WWs new friends smoke weed but she has not. I do not see the same WW from last week Monday and the previous 5 weeks. She's not trying to be someone else anymore, just herself.

... and then, she's had one bottle of white wine tonight, not even the whole bottle and was supposed to put our S to sleep. And our S has just left our MBR and went to lay in his own room, as she's tipsy and passed out snoring. The fog is deep! But baby steps hey. I'm off to lay by him.

So WW phone was vibrating whilst she was sleeping, I wish she could just lose it... Anyhows, I was thinking of snooping. I did try and put it off vibrate, but had the resolve not to check it.

I spoke to her earlier about transparency and she said it's fine to check her phone. However, she thought i did check her phone as she awoke and was quite defensive. Well, a good 180 there from me regardless.

Originally Posted By: DDJ

I was thinking that too, that the sexes on this forum must find it hard to understand how each one reacts to the other. A strong man does not question himself, he's confident and is always listening to make sure that he makes the right decisions, for the household.
This must be hard for strong women like the ones on this forum. Us men need to learn to lead of R and not the W. You women need to learn to let your H lead, which goes against the whole feeling, but i guess that's what 180 is about.

You're still speaking a foreign language to me... I think it makes sense to take turns and utilize our individual strengths as a couple to each do what we do best. Nobody can take the lead all the time, that's exhausting. It's not a hierarchy, but a partnership, it's in the name.

Originally Posted By: DDJ

... and then, she's had one bottle of white wine tonight, not even the whole bottle and was supposed to put our S to sleep. And our S has just left our MBR and went to lay in his own room, as she's tipsy and passed out snoring. The fog is deep! But baby steps hey. I'm off to lay by him.

This is clearly something she needs help with. It would be a dealbreaker for me. She is not fit to take care of a child.

I agree with Painter. It kinda feels like you are reacting to the trivial stuff and then glossing over what should be deal breakers. Its like you are putting alot of effort to being mysterious rather than being a stable, solid H and F.

Drinking in front of S until she is unable to put him to bed. That is a deal breaker, i would have questioned her priorities as a mother. Yea it may mean we fight about it if i failed to approach the subject tactfully but i would make a stance there.

On the going out drinking with the crew, i wouldnt tolerate it. For me that is a clear boundary and a roadblock to mending the M, but thats just me and where i am from its very bad for W to be hanging out at night with other men. (that goes vice versa for H's too here).

The going out and disappearing to appear mysterious seem a little childish to me. Dont get me wrong if you have activities by all means go ahead and do it, if she asks id tell her. I would rather come off being happy with my activities rather than being cold and sullen about it.

Disclaimer: im new to DB so take my opinions with a grain of salt. As much as i want to DB or LRT i wouldnt do or stand for anything that goes against my code/honour/principles.

Certainly going out with other men is highly inappropriate as OM2 could be or already is around the corner. But DB says to act as-if. If I say she can't, it also not my boundary, instead it is control. The same thing with the wine.

These are deal breakers that only she can drop. I have to focus on me. As for going out, last week Friday I felt emancipated to do something with and by myself. I would love her to join, but I want the time to myself for now. I'm going to be a bit stressed after she's going out Thurs and Sat, so need that time.

This morning I told her that if we're willing to make a M, a R or us work, that we must be willing to do anything. I asked her to think about what she would be willing to do to get things where they need to be so that we can move forward, together. I hope that it was not too soon.

She looked at me funnily and asked me which DDJ awoke this morning. I need to be consistent. I need to be aloof,and present.

Please start a new thread.

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2676192#Post2676192