Hi everyone. I've been lurking here for a while, and have been applying the rules and advice I have read here with a little success. But I need some advice on where to go from here.
My wife has always been extremely insecure about me straying and in the beginning of our relationship I have here good cause with flirty behavior and porn addiction. Recently i have been struggling with moderating my alcohol intake and being extremely flirty with other women when we go out. She has had enough and told me the first time a year ago that she wanted to separate. Since then it has been a horrible cycle of me trying my best to be her "perfect husband", her pushing me away, me getting frustrated at her not accepting these positive changes and getting drunk...repeating mistakes, and rounding it out with her pushing me away even further. When I stopped drinking for the past month, this seemed to make her even more angry and distant, and she has left out marital bed just a week ago.
I have backed off, stopped texting, stopped affection, stopped catering to her every grip, and stopped saying I love you and being sweet in general. This definitely got some negative attention from her. Up until she had said she wanted to separate, I wasn't really a present husband. So distancing doesn't seem like a 180, but more of the same...but it is a 180 from my behavior of the past year being the major pursuer. She complains about all of my new behavior, and I remind her she is the one that wants a separation and left out bed. I get the feeling I shouldn't be reminding her about this? How do I respond to her complaints when I am clearly not trying to pursue here anymore? She continued to say she doesn't want to be with me and she wants a separation.
Last night she started to open up a tiny bit and Im thinking I did well with validating. I was laying in our bed and told her to lay down with me and I held her for a while and we had a great talk...progress?...no. We took a car ride to get dinner for the family and she went right back into separation land.
She says she wants to start over, but can only do that by separating first. She tells me that I should be the one to leave since it will be easier with the kids for her to stay. I tell her if she wants to make that decision, then she will have to make it without me because I don't agree.
She had ordered me out of our bed because of her "bad back" but I told her no, especially because of the way she is trying to control and order me around.
Before I go on typing 10 pages, let me get to it...
If the end goal is to have a better relationship and be supportive of my wife and get the same support back...at what point should I start giving the good things back to her? The affection and love that I have for her now. Where do I go from here?
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH. Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
She tells me that I should be the one to leave since it will be easier with the kids for her to stay.
I tell her if she wants to make that decision, then she will have to make it without me because I don't agree.
She had ordered me out of our bed because of her "bad back" but I told her no, especially because of the way she is trying to control and order me around.
DO NOT MOVE OUT OF THE HOUSE or THE MBR.
I bet you always did everything she said too!
Thank you cadet. Yes, I am very firm about those points. I'm not getting pushed out of my bed or house.
Hello ImAwake,
I'm so sorry for the situation you are in.
Good job being firm about not moving out of the home or marital bedroom! You mentioned that being distant wouldn't be different and was one of the things she is complaining about. You can be detach without being cold.
You are at a very fragile point in this relationship and it would be extremely helpful to know what your next move should be. Feel free to give me a call at 303-444-7004 to discuss how we can best help you determine what to do next.
Cristy
Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004
Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka
that I totally agree with.
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.
Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
I will keep posting. Thanks for the support!
If the end goal is to have a better relationship and be supportive of my wife and get the same support back...at what point should I start giving the good things back to her? The affection and love that I have for her now. Where do I go from here?
Sorry you are here ImAwake but its a good place to be given your current situation.
I know that detaching and being "distant" seems like more of the same but what you have to realize is that right now, she doesn't want you. She's done with you. It doesnt matter how much you are "present" for her right now because she doesn't care. She's checked out.
So you have to turn all of your efforts and attention inwards and focus on you and you alone. You've admitted to some issues. We all have them. Start there. Start fixing those things. Not to win your W back or because you think it is what she wants to see but rather because those are things that you know need to be fixed and that you want to fix so that you are a better person. Detach, 180 and GAL. Be genuine in the changes you make. Do them for you and you alone. She will notice and they will make a huge impact IF you are genuine about making these changes.
When do you turn back on the love? That really depends on her. She's got to show you that she's checked back into the R. You'll know it when she does. But don't jump back into the R with both feet at the first sign of thawing. Take your time. Go slow. You didn't get here overnight and it won't be fixed overnight. Be patient and be thankful for the baby steps.
S isn't the end of the world if it happens. It may even be a good thing. If she S and see's that you continue to make meaningful, lasting changes in your life, it could turn everything around. I know its painful but just focus on your right now. You can't control her. You can't make her see the light. If you are REAL in the changes you make, she will notice them.
Do you have the book? If so, read it. Post often. Ask for help and update us on your situation.
Thanks LiM. Some good advice, especially taking it slow when she shows signs of thawing. I needed to hear that.
It seems like our talk on Sunday night helped a bit. W was very pleasant when I got home and through the night. We will see how today goes.
I think I missed the point before of not being cold, but detached. I didn't really have the difference clearly defined in my mind, but now I can see some things that I could improve to reach that balance. Thanks Cristy.
This stuff really works!
I had already been doing some self help including a 180 on the alcohol usage and GAL before I heard the term here...but Michelle's relationship seesaw and detachment ideas have really made a huge difference in my W. This plus validating has brought her one small step out of her resentment fog.
Last night she had another small melt down, which triggered her to say a few things about me being happier with someone else. My response was much different than what she is used to. I said if I did find someone else to be happy with, it still wouldn't be the same as me and you. She was speechless.
Later that night I was doing my thing and I get a text from her saying we need to talk more about that comment. I came out and told her to meet me in another room, neutral ground. She very humbly asked me if I had found someone else already. This usually would have come in the form of aggressive accusations, followed by getting cut off when trying to say anything about it, but this was different. I told her no, and that I wasn't looking for someone else. She expressed feelings open and honestly and I validated better than ever. She started to give me compliments about me being a good guy and deserving to be happy with someone else. Hmm. I asked if she thought she should not be happy, and she said she didn't think she would ever be happy. Then she went on to apologize for specific things she had done in the past! I did my best to keep it cool, because I was shocked. I had not gotten a heartfelt apology for at least 2 years for anything. Inside I was thinking that was big! I told her I know that took a lot for you to say, thank you. But I had already forgiven you long ago. She was stunned.
The talk went on for a while, I made it about her because she is in really bad emotional shape. So I talked about her getting help possibly with a therapist, but she doesn't want to. So I told her she can come to me anytime she wants to talk and I'll listen and hear her. She said ok and gave me a hug, but it still seemed a little forced.
Later that night I heard her crying in the bathroom. I went in and just comforted her. She started to open up again, it was amazing. She talked about insecurities and her fears so openly and I responded/validated well. She asked questions that sounded like she is really to make small steps back into our R. We agreed that we will take it slow and try to make something different and new. I told her I don't want the same unhealthy R that for us to this point, she agreed. We stayed up way too late talking and neither of us wanted to end it. But eventually we went to bed. She's not in the MBR, but it seems like she will be soon enough. Slow and steady is good! She also said she still wants to have time to herself and I agreed that I wanted my time too. In our old R she was extremely clingy, so this was nice to hear. She seems to be making progress on herself too!
So it's going well. I did say I love you at the end of the night out if habit, without getting one back. It made me feel dumb, but that's ok. I'll try to save those for a long while.
I woke up and I felt strange. Almost like it was a dream and it went too well to have been real. I honestly didn't think this would ever happen, so I'm a little bit confused. Kind of like, wow what now? So I'm not expecting anything right now, either way. It's a new day and I'll roll with whatever comes.
Well that was short lived. W went cold again. I was disappointed so I backed off without being cold, but she had a huge reaction to something other small thing and proceeded to go off the deep end. She kept trying to get a reaction out of me by making comments about me and our relationship then leaving the room and not letting me respond. Then she said I was ignoring her which gave her more fuel to do more of the same. I told her if she wanted to talk then she should come talk, not come in and say something in anger and leave. She said I should be coming to her to talk when she does this. She says I'm being hot/cold when she is the one doing it. She says she knew I was full of it when I said she could come talk to me anytime and I'll listen...but she didn't come to me to talk, she had a tantrum. Very frustrating, but I kept it cool.
I guess deep down I felt like this would go a little smoother than usual after that talk. Now she's threatening to move my stuff out of our bedroom while I'm at work and taking the bedroom for herself. I just said no, this is my bedroom. At this point I don't know what she is capable of, so I'm not sure how I'm going to handle it if she actually does this. I'll need to prepare myself before I get home.
This is s crucial time. Be patient, avoid being drawn in and avoid letting your emotions get the best of you and avoid getting angry. You and going to be wrong in her eyes no matter what, you are the enemy no matter what. Accept this and listen, listen, listen. Validate when you can, remember validating is acknowledging her feeling, not whether they are true or not. Be careful apologizing as is can reinforce her felling that you are to blame. Be the lighthouse. Read, read, ask questions here, read again. Do not let her ups or downs cause your ups and downs. I could tell my your post, that is the case, because you said "that was short lived". This is not going to be over quickly!!! Patience.
Thank you for that Ralph88. I do need to rethink how I look at things. I'm not riding with her emotional roller coaster like I used to, but I still need to accept my situation more fully.
Welcome aboard. I hope you will stick with us and post often.
I have several questions, and I really hope you will answer them. It will give me a clearer picture.
My wife has always been extremely insecure about me straying and in the beginning of our relationship I have here good cause with flirty behavior and porn addiction.
Could you say this another way? I'm not sure I understand the last part of the sentence.
Have you given your W reason to feel she has an insecure relationship?
She has had enough and told me the first time a year ago that she wanted to separate
How many times has she told you she wanted to separate? When you say she's had enough.............enough of what?
Since then it has been a horrible cycle of me trying my best to be her "perfect husband", her pushing me away, me getting frustrated at her not accepting these positive changes and getting drunk...repeating mistakes, and rounding it out with her pushing me away even further.
Funny thing, I don't know that I have ever read a man's idea of the "perfect husband" matching the woman's idea of one. What exactly were you doing at the time she would push you away?
When I stopped drinking for the past month, this seemed to make her even more angry and distant, and she has left out marital bed just a week ago.
Did she actually say that she wanted you drunk, or is this your interpretation of something else she said?
I have backed off, stopped texting, stopped affection, stopped catering to her every grip, and stopped saying I love you and being sweet in general. This definitely got some negative attention from her
I'm sure it did!
Up until she had said she wanted to separate, I wasn't really a present husband.
How many times had she said it before you became a present H?
What are the ages of you and W, and how long together? What are the kids ages?
The more you can tell us about the marital history, the more help I think you will receive.
Last couple of questions. Have either of you ever been in an inappropriate relationship since getting married? Either of you been previously married?
Hope to hear from you soon.
All the quotes are a little tricky on the phone...I answered each one below.
Welcome aboard. I hope you will stick with us and post often.
I have several questions, and I really hope you will answer them. It will give me a clearer picture.
My wife has always been extremely insecure about me straying and in the beginning of our relationship I have here good cause with flirty behavior and porn addiction.
Could you say this another way? I'm not sure I understand the last part of the sentence.
Have you given your W reason to feel she has an insecure relationship?
Yes I have. From flirty behavior with other women, to porn addiction which hurt her deeply, to more recent provocative dancing and getting touchy-feely with female friends while drunk.
She has had enough and told me the first time a year ago that she wanted to separate
How many times has she told you she wanted to separate?
When you say she's had enough.............enough of what?
Many times since then. But before that, not once. It was a huge shock to me at the time.
Since then it has been a horrible cycle of me trying my best to be her "perfect husband", her pushing me away, me getting frustrated at her not accepting these positive changes and getting drunk...repeating mistakes, and rounding it out with her pushing me away even further.
Funny thing, I don't know that I have ever read a man's idea of the "perfect husband" matching the woman's idea of one. What exactly were you doing at the time she would push you away?
Trying to be loving physically. Giving her back rubs. Helping around the house a lot. A lot of the things she said she wanted. But she was extremely cold to me and I would get upset. That frustration would come out when we would drink too much on the weekends. We would get in fights over things I would do, like talking/flirting with other women at the bars.
[/quote]When I stopped drinking for the past month, this seemed to make her even more angry and distant, and she has left out marital bed just a week ago.
Did she actually say that she wanted you drunk, or is this your interpretation of something else she said?
She said I was being too extreme. She said she wanted to be able to drink a drink with her husband. That this was not the kind of relationship she wanted.
I have backed off, stopped texting, stopped affection, stopped catering to her every grip, and stopped saying I love you and being sweet in general. This definitely got some negative attention from her
Up until she had said she wanted to separate, I wasn't really a present husband.
How many times had she said it before you became a present H?
None. She told me the first time, I went through horrible depression and anger, then I woke up and started moving in a more positive direction in my life.
What are the ages of you and W, and how long together? What are the kids ages?
I'm 37, W 33, together for 15 years . kids 13, 8, 5
The more you can tell us about the marital history, the more help I think you will receive.
I can see that both of us were too young and emotionally immature to be married. Our communication skills are horrible, and most of our R we avoided problems instead of dealing. She would try to talk to me back then, but I would get defensive instead of listening. She has always been insecure about me not needing or wanting her because of porn and masterbation. Even when I was doing well with avoiding porn, she would accuse and suspect me, which made me feel guilty...which triggered the addiction. Another ugly cycle.
Last couple of questions. Have either of you ever been in an inappropriate relationship since getting married? Either of you been previously married?
No previous marriages. We were both involved with inappropriate sensual/sexual behavior with another couple. Not a relationship, but a couple of incidents. That for me was a turning point. That is when a lot of my anger started, even though I was involved too.
Hope to hear from you soon.
I don't see an edit button, so I cut and pasted:
Welcome aboard. I hope you will stick with us and post often.
I have several questions, and I really hope you will answer them. It will give me a clearer picture.
Quote:
My wife has always been extremely insecure about me straying and in the beginning of our relationship I have here good cause with flirty behavior and porn addiction.
Could you say this another way? I'm not sure I understand the last part of the sentence
Have you given your W reason to feel she has an insecure relationship?
-- yes I was addicted to porn and would sometimes flirt with other women. We were always unstable from the beginning.
Quote:
She has had enough and told me the first time a year ago that she wanted to separate
How many times has she told you she wanted to separate? When you say she's had enough.............enough of what?
-- Many times after that, but none before that. It came as a shock at the time. She is tired of me getting flirty with other women, using harsh words, talking bad about her, just being disrespectful in general while drunk. This is why I stopped drinking. All of this bad behavior lately has been when I am drunk and out of control.
Quote:
Since then it has been a horrible cycle of me trying my best to be her "perfect husband", her pushing me away, me getting frustrated at her not accepting these positive changes and getting drunk...repeating mistakes, and rounding it out with her pushing me away even further.
Funny thing, I don't know that I have ever read a man's idea of the "perfect husband" matching the woman's idea of one. What exactly were you doing at the time she would push you away?
-- I would be loving physically, hugs and back rubs and holding her at night. Doing lots around the house to help out. Spending more time with her. All the things she said she wanted in an R. But then you add the drunken weekends and you get a very confused W. She would be very cold and tell me it was too much affection for her.
Quote:
When I stopped drinking for the past month, this seemed to make her even more angry and distant, and she has left out marital bed just a week ago.
Did she actually say that she wanted you drunk, or is this your interpretation of something else she said?
-- She said I was being too extreme. She said she want to be able to drink with her husband. She would try to embarrass me in front of our friends by making comments about me not drinking. Almost calling me weak...like peer pressure.
Quote:
I have backed off, stopped texting, stopped affection, stopped catering to her every grip, and stopped saying I love you and being sweet in general. This definitely got some negative attention from her
I'm sure it did!
Quote:
Up until she had said she wanted to separate, I wasn't really a present husband.
How many times had she said it before you became a present H?
-- after the first time she said it I went into a deep depression. When I woke up and decided to make my life better, I was making positive changes in the way I treated her while sober. But I was a jerk when drunk.
What are the ages of you and W, and how long together? What are the kids ages?
--I'm 37, W 33, 15 years married, kids are 13,8,5
The more you can tell us about the marital history, the more help I think you will receive.
--We were not emotionally mature enough to get married when we did. Neither of us really had a good idea about how Rs should be. We fought constantly in the beginning then we just kind of avoided fights instead of dealing. She would try to talk to me but I would get defensive and avoid her.
Last couple of questions. Have either of you ever been in an inappropriate relationship since getting married? Either of you been previously married?
--No previous marriages.
We both were involved with inappropriate sensual/sexual behavior with another couple. That was a turning point for me. I was very depressed but more angry that had happened. This was a few years ago.
Thank you for answering my questions.
For now, and without more information, I would say you went to extremes in both directions. When you were trying to be the perfect H, you come on to fast & heavy. I'm guessing she felt smothered. Then you got frustrated and cut everything out. So, I could see why she might have a difficult time adjusting.
The part about her wanting to drink with her H and embarrassing you in front of others.......well, someone else will have to help you there. Does she only drink "socially", or does she drink at home, too? Maybe she is angry b/c it puts more light on her own drinking issues when you aren't playing the role of the drunk.
Besides her saying she wants to separate, have you noticed any strange behavior in your wife? Something that would cause you to wonder if she was communicating privately with another man? I am not trying to plant bad things into your brain, just trying to get down to meat.
Does she seem to find something to fight about? Does she guard her phone and does it stick to her like glue? Is she on the computer excessively? Is she gone for long period of unexplained time? Don't accuse or confront her. Maybe she has always done these things and you were not present to notice.
What are some ways she shows disrespect toward you?
Have either of you ever received counseling?
She mostly drinks socially, but rarely gets drunk.
I've noticed her very attached to her phone months ago, but she no longer does this. She's constantly telling me what I am doing wrong, or things that lend to her wanting to get separated. Constant judgment and head shaking and exasperation about small thing that I do that annoy her. She's not on the computer much. On the phone constantly, but she mostly texts her friends about their drama. I guess if she was sneaky enough it could be someone else, I'm gone during the day so she might be gone for long periods without me knowing. When I get home she usually is there too.
She used to call me names a lot, but I told her that needs to stop. Just recently she took my phone and checked it after I told her not to. She thinks I am seeing someone else. She tries to put me down in subtle ways in front of other people. Just enough to be able to explain it away if she had to.
Neither of us have received counseling. I told her that maybe she should go to work through her issues, but she doesn't want to. I have read some inspiring books and articles about life in general and have come a long way with meditation and reflection. I have tools now that I use to manage my anger and depression.
Some days I think being separate would make DBing a lot easier. But maybe that's just me wanting to avoid issues like we have for years. It's not an easy thing to love someone and at the same time not enjoy their company. I suppose she's going through the same feelings but more intensified.
W keeps testing to see if she can get me out of the MBR. Not as demanding this time but she asked which bedroom I wanted. I told her I'm staying in my bedroom, and she has also started to refer to it as mine which is interesting. We had a good talk last night, she came to me. We both have each other room and time to make out points, although I had to remind her once to let me finish. It's still sent a lot better than any other R talk we've had recently. She still wants to separate, but she seems to be softening somehow. I did pretty well validating and made it clear that I respect her opinions even when I don't agree. I'm doing another 180 with marijuana use, since this is a huge trigger for her. The talk ended well so we will see how today goes. Typically after we have a good time together or a good talk, for the next day or two she likes to test my patience. I am getting much better at preparing for this.
Beware the sneakiness and manipulation. Don't believe what she says. Softening? Still wanting you out of MBR? Still wanting to separate? It sounds like she is trying to nice you out or soften to get you on board. I only say this because, my WW did all of this to me. My WW also refers to everything as hers. She also attempts to get the kids to call her house home and my house daddy's.
Ah ok, that makes sense. She kept saying "that's why I have to separate" during our talk even when it didn't always make sense. I guess she was trying to get me to agree. I told her that I would respect her decision, but that she knows I don't agree wth it.
I'll keep an eye out for sneakiness. Thanks Ralph88!
The WW tends to want you on board to separate. That way it's a mutual decision and helps ease her guilt. I missed the boat in that one and was kind and left. It you don't want to separate, don't. Don't leave the MBR or the house. Let her make her own decisions. Once my WW was separated, she started saying things like 'if we ever get back together', even though we are still married.
So an ongoing theme in W wanting separation is her idea that she can't work on her issues while in the same house as me. She realizes that she has work to do, but she's putting the roadblock of separation in the way of her starting to do it now. I say roadblock, because at this point financially it would be impossible to separate and expect to have the life style we have. I think all of the repeated separation talk is her looking for a way to get me to leave her. I honesty feel she's too spoiled and lazy right now to think about making a sacrifice to leave.
She complained about my lack of communication when leaving the house. She said it is just common courtesy telling someone when you leave. You would even tell a friend if you were leaving to go do an errand. I agree with this, but I'm trying to work on GAL and detachment. What do you guys think?
W has officially moved into another bedroom. She set up a little nest with our oldest daughter. She hasn't been getting angry much lately, and hasn't said she wants to be separated since my last post. No R talks either. She has been doing more around the house than usual. She hung up my clothes for me which she hasn't done in a long time. I notice her leaving little things of hers around our room. She still lives out of our room/bathroom, but it's funny. She left her nail polish out, so I moved it to her side of the bathroom when I cleaned up. Later in the day it reappeared in the same spot. It's like she wants to leave her mark or something...but I'll stop analyzing. I just thought it was interesting.
She had purchased a date night type thing a while ago. I told her I wasn't going so she went without me with our mutual friends. It felt good to not feel obligated to go with her. She seemed to have fun and stayed out late, but I didn't pay much attention to it. I have some projects to keep me busy when I'm at home.
All seems to be going well on the outside, but inside I feel like I'm losing all feeling for her. I look at her and I just see a person. Not a wife, not a girlfriend, not even a friend really...just a person that is the mother of my children. In the past I might have been sad about this, but I'm not. It's just how things are. However, I think there is some underlying fear that I won't be able to love her anymore.
She says she wants me to fight for her. I told her she has made it clear that she is "done" with me and wants to separate. I asked why would I keep trying to be with someone that doesn't want to be with me? She said because deep down she really loves me but she doesn't want to let her walls down anymore.
I don't know what to do about her anymore. I feel like she's just trying to draw the nice guy out of me so she can slam me more. Any of this sound familiar? Any suggestions?
It's been a long while. I've had some hard times with W recently, but also had a good talk with her yesterday. She has always texted other men "as friends" and now recently was getting way too close and "friendly" with one of our mutual male friends. Other close friends have come forward to say they have noticed this in the recent past. I stood up for myself and told her that this is not acceptable. I told her I don't want her texting any male friends, no matter what the intentions are. She knows I have never liked it, but I never really told her not to. I also told her she needs to not be so close and friendly with other males, and that it comes off as flirty. I said if we are married we shouldn't be thinking about seeing anyone else. If it comes to a divorce, then obviously we would be free to date. Now that she is a little exposed and others are seeing her differently, she seems to see a problem as well. She knows she needs help, and I am encouraging her to do so, but made it clear that it shouldn't be talking to another man or her friends about her problems, but actual IC or self help. She agrees.
We have some R talk initiated by her. She is still "done" and wants to separate. The more she talked the more I could see her trying to test me. I could see it in her eyes..."I don't think I could ever come back to you"..."I think maybe we should just get a divorce because it seems hopeless"..."I can picture you with someone else, even though that hurts to even think of you with someone else"..."you will always be my first love"(crying). I'll admit I shed a few tears on that last one, but I feel that I validated well, and told her I know it is a sad situation. It's so hard to hold back and not blurt out something hopeful when she says anything slightly positive (love). I held up pretty well and let her talk. Any mention of being separate or divorced I just said that's a decision she has to make. I'm not sure the best way to respond to that without seeming like I'm waiting around for her.
I am talking about separating like its going to happen, planning to separate finances soon. Getting myself prepared and GALing as best I can. I have some simple daily goals of exercise and spending time with the kids. Also meditation, although I havent been sticking to that well enough. I have many hobbies that I can enjoy, but always got guilted into minimizing from W. Now it's different though, I have given myself permission to be me again and I'm going for it.
Just a few Facebook posts from W and it sends me spiraling down. She posts/likes things that can be taken personally, seen by our friends for them to add their own assumptions, but vague enough that if I said anything she could easily explain away. I have always viewed her as an innocent, but now I am starting to see her manipulation surface. I actually recovered from the spiraling within a few hours, which is a marked improvement for me. Also no reactions at all for her to see! However, I am having a hard time not mind reading and thinking about how my actions might have an affect on her. It comes and goes. I still have a lot of work to do.
What were you doing during the two months off the board?
I didn't even realize how much time had gone by!
I was thinking things were going well so I kind of fell off the detachment a bit. I'm back to reality and see that she is rebelling even more now that I confronted her about being "too friendly" with our male friend. I am detached more than I have ever been. I was continuing to go out with her and hang out with our friends, but that has stopped. I'm going as dark as possible (being in the same house makes this difficult obviously), but still treating her kindly as a friend would.
I just read in another thread about in house separations typically not ending in reconciliation. If this is true, should I be pushing more for a physical separation? Advice was given not to leave the MBR or the house, which I still haven't. However, I have a feeling W will not separate and will drag this out. At this point I am honestly ready for change. I do love W and would prefer the change to include her, but this doesn't seem possible right now. If staying in the same house is going to reduce the chance of reconciliation, I would want to start heading into a physical separation. Please share your thoughts on this.
ImAwake - you were perhaps reading my thread. My WW stayed in the house painfully eating cake for several months. She's moving out today although I just checked the security cam and she's still in the house right now.
I got very tired of it and just wanted for her to make up her mind one way or the other. It was very uncomfortable for both of us and in some ways harder for her. While I dreaded coming home and finding her gone I also dreaded coming home and finding her there. She felt the same way.
I have no clue at all what finally pushed her over the edge to move out though so I can't help you there. I know that earlier on I'd offered to help pay rent and startup costs to no effect.
The important thing I personally believe is that you stand YOUR ground.
AndrewP, yes it was your thread I was reading.
I hear you on the cake eating. I can feel and see some of that going on with my W. I have made it a point to not jump at the chance to be helpful like I would have in the recent past. Although she seems annoyed, this is really helping with my self respect.
I opened a new personal bank account yesterday (we always have used joint accounts) which felt really good. I had let her know about it ahead of time, but I don't think she thought I was going to. She seemed upset about it, but didn't say anything. She left the house with a lame excuse and didn't come home until 3:30am. Although I was worried, I didn't msg her like I usually would. I am so proud of myself, I woke up in a great mood today because of it. Zero reaction and a genuine smile on my face as I went to sleep.
I suppose I should start a new thread, because a new chapter has started. Me and my W are back together!
We had a little rollercoaster ride and a long talk yesterday. She asked many questions and expressed herself. I answered all of them openly and honestly, even some big "life questions" that I have never expressed to her. I validated well and gave hugs for comfort where appropriate. I had some questions for her aswell that got cleared up. It's clear that both of us are going into this cautiously, which for us at this point is a good thing. We have made up before (never separated before this though) with the "fresh start" idea, but we never really learned anything new to maintain that idea. I made it clear that both of us need to continue to work on ourselves and not put these helpful tools down just because we are back together. As I mentioned before she has started reading some self help material which I think inspired this change as well as my difficult DBing! I wish I had found this forum earlier in this process, but I am glad I did when I did. It turns out she had already started the process of a D. I think she expected me to be upset when she told me, but I told her that it made sense because I was feeling like we were coming to a crossroads as well.
So I have my ring back on, and I told her I am going to have to get her a new one which of course she is happy about. She's moved back into the MBR, although she looked nervous when I suggested it. But I get it. I got my first kiss/kisses in almost 3 years! Yeah, it's been a while. I held her while going to sleep, but didn't sleep that well unfortunately. I feel like it's going to take some adjusting to this new R to really feel totally comfortable with each other. I don't want to rush into everything too quickly and forget to continue working. I am making it a point to post updates here and keep personal notes to keep me on track.
I would just like to say thank you to this community for all the support, tips and personal stories. It really pushed my progress over the plateua that I was at. It gave me strength to keep going when I wanted to quit, and for that I will always be grateful.
Both of you will need to stop doing the bad behaviors that got your MR into trouble. Like, drinking and flirting with others......texting & emailing "friends" of the opposite sex. That is not what a couple needs to do if they are trying to have a better M. I hope you will avoid going places that encourage those behaviors.
It won't be long before you will be tempted to fall back into those old patterns. It is not easy changing unhealthy patterns in life, but it is so worth it.
I hope you two will find a really good MC to guide you to stronger and happier grounds.
Thanks Sandi!
Yes during DBing I made it clear that texting or calling "friends" of the opposite sex is not acceptable to me in our relationship, especially given our history. Yesterday that point was discussed again and we agreed that neither of us should be doing so. We also talked about not going to dance clubs anymore. It's a bad scene for us and has always ended up badly. There are more fun things that we would like to do together and also more family activities instead of just me and her looking to party/distract ourselves. She has not been drinking much when going out surprisingly, and I have cut way back as well. Without the club scene, avoiding alcohol abuse will be easier. But we still need to be on guard.
Now W seems to be taking a step back. Saying that she's not sure if she wants to give me another chance. She sent my stress level through the roof. Ive gathered myself together now, but it seems like its going to be more of the same. The only problem is we are "together" and sleeping in the same bed. We also had great sex that makes this even more confusing.
I guess I'm reading into this too much. I know she is unsure of the future and so am I. We had a conversation that was too deep for both of us yesterday. So I think that sent her running a little bit. How do I handle this? I made it a goal not to distance myself once she decided she wanted to be with me. This is a 180 from my usual behaviour in the past. She has expressed before this that she wanted me to chase her. Now that she has moved back in the MBR and decided to try, I thought chasing her would be a good idea. But I am second guessing this now.
Not sure if you've tried it before, but is now maybe the time to find a good marriage counselor, while you're both in the marriage but maybe struggling with the how of putting things together? Just a thought. I know MC doesn't work if both parties aren't engaged and wanting it to work, but your sitch seems different (and positive!).
She has been against MC and also IC. She was reading self help material, but says she is unable to focus when reading. It seems like she wants to prevent her own progress. She has talked about internal conflict, that she tells herself that she shouldn't be trying to work things out and questioning her every move. Although she says she's just hurt and harbors no resentment towards me, which is laughable given her behavior.
I knew this wasnt going to be easy, but I think I set myself up secretly being hopeful and expecting a breakthrough moment.
She is "addicted". Having a long talk with each other does not erase the addiction. The two of you need a plan to keep you on track.
You can start with commitment. If she's not willing to commit 100%, it won't work. If she is, you can engage in being transparent with each other. For example, you are free to look at each other's phones and email, and/or whatever it takes to account for your activity. (We can give more information later, if you are interested.
I think you should consider an agreement (thoroughly communicated with one another) as to what is needed from each spouse in order to have a better relationship; have an agreement as to what each of you are willing to do to give the MR the work that is required to gain trust, respect, and loyalty. Write it down, if it helps.
I think it is important that both of you have a plan as to what to do, and what not to do, whenever you are tempted to return to the sources of your addictions. Where can you go locally to get support......and guidance in the steps to take in healing and maintaining?
You have to be proactive in pulling the MR out of the grip of the addictions. Neither of you can have it both ways. You can't have a good MR and keep the old behaviors.
During the long talk you had together, was there any remorse and apologies?
I want you to realize that her flirting and getting the attention of other men can be just as addictive as your porn. It may start out with flirty texts or emails........but it progresses. So, don't take it lightly......and don't let her get by with telling you it's no big deal. It's a very big deal when she's M. Don't accept her statement that any of these guys are just a friend. Now let me ask you.........have you texted or emailed other women in a flirtatious manner? Do you have friendships with women that exclude your W? Any messages you really wouldn't want your W to discover? Any contacts with previous girlfriends? If you get way too touchy and flirty while dancing and drunk, then what else do you do when drunk? If you are guilty of any of these behaviors, then it all must stop tonight, if you want to stay married. Both of you are playing with fire!
Thanks Sandi.
She doesn't seem to be 100% committed to working on our relationship now. Her words and actions said she was a couple of days ago when she moved back in, but now she seems to be scared and backpedalling.
Our long talk was great. Remorse and apologies on both sides. Expressions of love and missing each other. Talk of some expectations to help with the process of working towards a healthier R this time. Really good stuff.
I made it very clear and she agreed that she will not text or call other men. I have not had contact with other women in any form. I am no longer getting drunk or looking at porn. The only messages I would not want W to see is forum posts here and my personal notes/journal I use for my progress. I am 100% committed to work on our M.
Good to hear you were not involved in contacting other women. Here is what I've learned about long talks about the relationship. In many cases, it is more one-sided than equally balanced from each spouse. But the largest thing is how it is an emotional valve. It allows you to release some of that negative feelings........and in return, you feel better, even hopeful about the next coming days. However, emotions are one part and actually having a solid plan and doing the daily work.......is not fun. It takes self discipline and outside support.
My first thoughts about your W pulling back is that she has not stopped her activity of contacting other men. She needs to shut down all the chat rooms and dating sites, and she needs to block access to every man on her phone and computer. You can't just take her word.......you need to see that she truly has taken action to remove them.
Self discipline and outside support, yes. I'm all for it, but I will have to wait and make sure W is ready to be 100% committed to me and working on our R. I suppose I will have to detach a bit more if she is not. It's pretty disappointing since I thought this was our starting point. I'll go ahead and use my mental "oh well" now.
My gut feeling is that she is not in contact with other men at this point. But I will not rule it out until I am sure. Thanks for the thought.
We have been talking a little here and there, and it seems more of the same from her. I went out with my buddy for a drink last night. I let her know the day before and she seemed to have no problem with it, nothing was said. Now she tells me that I'm putting other people first and that she will never be put first. I validated her feelings, but I told her we should have talked about it when I told her. Also if we have different expectations in this sensitive time, then we should discuss that as well. This is a big red flag for me, it reminds me of the insecure and controlling behaviour of our old R that I don't want to be part of anymore. I'm not going with my instinct to run away from the issue. I am going to try to talk with her about it in a loving way to see if we can come to an understanding.
That's all fine and good that you want to be a wonderful, loving H. I am saying that it is her emotional addiction to these other men that is causing her to pull away from you. You could be the grandest H on earth........and if she is involved emotionally with any other man, it will have huge affects on her feelings about you.
Many H's would stake their life on the W not having another person involved........and say they felt it in their heart, or their W wasn't the type, was a good Christian, and many more reasons..........only to discover she was cheating. For all I know, you do not consider her activity with these male contacts as cheating. I can speak from experience and tell you to take it extremely serious. Do not sweep things under the rug, or turn a blind eye.
Ok messaged received. Thank you so much for that! I'm going to let that really soak in now, then take a more appropriate approach.
I agree with sandi, just be careful of any men she may be in contact with. These OP have a way of telling our troubled spouses the things they want to hear.
I was one of the "he'd never do that" people when I first came here. My h had an ea which turned into a pa. a year later down the line, he is tuning in and out of the r. I've discovered he has "a good female friend" who he swears it's nothing more, but when he suddenly checked out alarm bells rang.
Even an emotional affair is an addiction to them. That op might not be anything compared to you, but when they are in the fog, nothing matters, this person is telling them all they want to hear, and making them feel good about themselves. Maybe it's the buzz of someone finding them attractive or interesting, I really don't know. What I do know is they are poison!
It's great to hear the positive changes you've made for yourself. If say keep doing what works. Your w is very confused and clearly in the fog, truth is she doesn't know what she wants. But no woman wants to loose a good thing. Keep focusing on you, be the best man that you can be and leave her to figure herself out.
Good luck, it rooting for you
We had a quick talk during lunch which didn't go very well. She feels like I am trying to control her by telling her she shouldn't be in contact with her male friends. She says she doesn't see anything wrong with it since it's innocent. I stayed firm and told her that changes need to be made to make progress in our R and this was one of them. Still she said "I don't know what to tell you, we are going to have to agree to disagree. I'm not going to change who I am as a good friend" Ha! Ain't that some crap. I told her that means she is not committed to making the R better. She replied that I am making her sound bad. I validated a bit and said I see that being viewed as "good" is important to you. I don't think you are bad I'm just stating facts about how you handle our relationship.
We are going to talk more later. We will see how that goes.
Thanks Cherry! Its really great to have support here. I appreciate all of the kinds words and the also 2x4s when needed.
Good job on addressing the situation. I'd say don't throw accusations, it may be innocent. But in my eyes, anything you have to hide from your spouse isn't innocent.
Keep you're eyes open. You're doing great. And we're all here for support in what is easily one of the hardest tests of our lives
We didn't get a chance to talk, we have some other family stuff going on and also I wanted to really think about the best way to approach it. She has slept on the couch the last couple of nights, which seems to be her neutral ground. I thought she would move back into her "separated bedroom".
I have been writing notes which I might just let her read when I'm done, but I definitely want to have a sit down in person.
Ok here is what I have so far. I need some input on how to soften this, since she is right on the edge.
If you want to change in your life in a positive direction, you need make positive changes in yourself first. Making changes in how you think and handle situations can be uncomfortable, but are needed to make progress. Being comfortable means doing the same things and thinking the same way that you are used to. But doing what you are used to hasn't worked so far has it?...So do things differently!
This goes for our relationship too. If we want a better relationship we need to do things differently than we did before. That starts with our individual progress, but also includes how we approach the relationship. I have realized that my expectations were more about the relationship that I want and not the one we are in. So I had to adjust my thinking over the past few days. When I mentioned being open to let you look at accounts and my phone to gain trust, you said you didn't want a relationship like that. I agree with you, but that is if we were in our goal relationship. We need to recognise that we still need work and need to make changes to get to that healthy goal relationship. Some changes will be temporary and some will need to be ongoing to maintain it. But we can't expect it to work by doing everything the same. Both of us have to make adjustments.
The best way to make sure it doesn't go back to the way it was is making a plan and keep checking back with our plan to make sure we're on track. Maybe even going to marriage counseling as long as the counseler is good and we make our goals clear. The main thing is we would need to go into this with an open mind.
Any thoughts on the post above? I really would like some input or advice on this talk I have laid out.
If she is wayward, she will place male friendships over her own H and M. The fact that she does not want a relationship where both of you can be transparent and not have secrets........is very telling, IMHO.
I can just tell you how a wayward wife would probably react to what you said in the previous post. If she is unwilling to cooperate and do what is needed to save the M, you won't be able to talk her into doing the things you stated above. You are still wanting to use words to fix things, and although I believe I understand what you are saying to her.......I just doubt she will heed to what you tell her.
As long as she wants to have private communication with the opposite sex and keep secrets from her H........I think your chances of success are unlikely. As long as she can say that's not what she wants.......and continues with the old behavior.......she isn't faced (or concerned) with the consequences of what doesn't work in a good MR.
Have you considered calling the Divorce Busting coaches?
I am prepared to fully detach (as much as possible) as before. I will give the talk a shot when I get a chance, but won't expect much.
Right now I can't afford the coaching sessions. But part of my GAL is getting a better paying job, hopefully soon!
We had a quick talk during lunch which didn't go very well. She feels like I am trying to control her by telling her she shouldn't be in contact with her male friends. She says she doesn't see anything wrong with it since it's innocent. I stayed firm and told her that changes need to be made to make progress in our R and this was one of them. Still she said "I don't know what to tell you, we are going to have to agree to disagree. I'm not going to change who I am as a good friend" Ha! Ain't that some crap. I told her that means she is not committed to making the R better. She replied that I am making her sound bad. I validated a bit and said I see that being viewed as "good" is important to you. I don't think you are bad I'm just stating facts about how you handle our relationship.
We are going to talk more later. We will see how that goes.
My ex said that a few times when I laid down the boundary of no contact. She did try for a couple weeks, when she tried to stop her addiction to OM. She was miserable, and I wasn't a very good consolation prize... angry and upset husband.
She eventually restated I could no longer tell her who to be friends with, she was in control, and that was that. The reconciliation blew up.
For me the EA had to go PA. My ex has too many skeletons in the closet that need propping up. I didn't do a very good job for her. I in turned restarted the D. She hasn't looked back.
Sandi, I think you're putting a nice spin on 'chances of success are unlikely'. I put the odds at winning the Megabucks. ImAwake, your spouse will need to realize what makes a healthy healthy relationship tick. And want to learn those healthy things. Until then, talking will be for exercising your mouth muscles - and exhaling. Putting the focus on you isn't selfish - it's your only move.
Thanks for your example trumpet. It really helps to hear other stories that have similarities.
I understand that the odds are against reconciliation, no need to sugercoat it. I'm not saying I won't do everything I can to work it out. My hope is there, but I have a much better hold on reality than I did just months ago. My reality is: I'll live
Btw, this is me talking on a good day. Haha
I told W that we should set some time to talk. She said with a bad attitude, what do you want to talk about exactly? I hope it's not to continue our last talk, because I am not going to agree with you. I asked if she was trying to avoid the subject altogether, she said there's nothing else to say about it. She added that she is committed, so I said maybe we need to talk about what she means by that. Our S6 was within earshot and she was already in b mode, so I stopped her from continuing and said another time would probably be better.
On a more positive note: I drank a glass of wine and went to bed listening to some good music. Some sad R type songs came on, but I didnt shed any tears. I smiled a healthy smile and took deep breaths, I got chills...happiness and acceptance of my situation. It's a strange thing to be sad, but happy that I now recognize when I'm sad and accept it. Really live through the sadness like I have never been able to do in the past.
As a side note: music has always been a big part of my life, listening and creating it. This is one of those things I put on hold for years now to spend "more time" with an unhappy W. Any time I would get into a project I was excited about she would tell me that I needed to spend more time with her. The time I spent with her was never enough and so my desperately needed personal time was "taken" and resentment built from there. I didn't even listen to music anymore! She didn't really have hobbies of her own, so she was totally dependent on my time to keep her happy and entertained. Very unhealthy now that I look back on it. But now I'm past that and I'm so happy to be getting back into music as one of my GAL activities!
We had a couple of talks which went as well as expected, but at least we made points we wanted to make. Detachment will continue and increase now. W has shown she is not really interested in working on anything. This was a just big temp check.
Friday night she says she would like to sleep in our bed and be close, but not have sex as that is moving too fast. I said ok, but she changed her mind by bed time, so I said ok haha. Saturday night she plops her pillow into our bed and climbs in. Hmm, ok. We watch a movie together until I was too tired and fell asleep. Hmm nice, ok. Since we've been going through other things including guests staying at the house for a few days, I've been helping out cleaning and taking care of the kids. I had just washed dishes Saturday night which she thanked me for. Lastnight she threw a tantrum over dishes and house work not being done. She stormed out of the house and stayed out for a short time. She could have asked for help, but she decided to make it into a bigger issue. She also chose to forget how much I've been helping out lately. I actually took out the trash and started to clean up...then I stopped when I realized I was rewarding this behavior. I decided to let her figure it out. I got dinner for the kids and when I got home she was already back. She said thanks for helping me make my decision. Omg haha, I had to laugh mentally, although I could have laughed out loud since she usually pokes her head in and storms off for comments like that. I came over thinking I could talk to her, but she said "dont, I know what you are doing. You're trying to play with my mind". I told her I'm not the one throwing tantrums. So needless to say I slept by myself again, which has become a lot more comfortable than it used to be.
Just a thought...if I detach more each time she backslides, isn't that just being reactionary? Being consistent would be continuing to be engaged with the R, but when she doesn't want to work on the R I should be DBing. Its interesting that she makes accusations of playing mind games. I guess we all live in Bizarro world with these waywards.
Your W wants an open M, and you don't want an open M. She has already told you she is not going to end her male contacts. She has made it very obvious she is not interested in having another one of your "talks".........and we have told you that talks, at this point, do not work. So, why do you insist doing What doesn't work?
Friday night she says she would like to sleep in our bed and be close, but not have sex as that is moving too fast
Can you not see that she is eating cake? IMHO, this was the time you could have stated a boundary.
I've been helping out cleaning and taking care of the kids. I had just washed dishes Saturday night which she thanked me for. Lastnight she threw a tantrum over dishes and house work not being done. She stormed out of the house and stayed out for a short time. She could have asked for help, but she decided to make it into a bigger issue.
And how did you address her bad behavior of acting like a spoiled bratt? Let me guess......the same way you addressed her plopping back into the marital bed.
You may think all of that was funny, but I don't. She clearly runs the show around your place. Forget having more talks with her and start doing something that is effective.........like having boundaries.
Yes I see that now. No more talks and back to work!
Damn. I didn't even see that as an opportunity to set a boundary. I viewed it as a an olive branch when she is just cake eating. I'll keep an eye out for this!
I started to clean up and fall into the same old patterns of catering to her tantrums. But I stopped myself. But then again yes, I went to her to talk about it...I should have left it until she came to me. I've got work to do. She disrupted my DB progress by getting "back together" with me. I'm really pissed off about it despite my light posts. I don't think it is funny, I just use humor to mask the frustration when posting and talking to other people about it. I deal with the pain more on my own, which I am working on as well.
I am making boundaries my new goal. I have set some basic ones with her already like privacy and not asking me about my phone anymore. But I wIll decide on some bigger ones to put in place that I have neglected to do.
Thanks Sandi. I appreciate the brutal honesty and truly value your viewpoint.
Don't offer an olive branch to a rattle snake, or you will get bit.
Have you studied the link Cadet posted about boundaries? What do you have planned if your W does not honor your privacy or your phone?
Yes I have read cadets link, and just reread it now. The consequences is the hard part. I have been advised not to leave the MBR and not to separate myself. So I am trying to think of something else, like not watching the kids anymore? That seems like punishing the kids and myself more than a consequence for her. Limiting contact even further would be easy if we were separated, but in the same house? Any suggestions?
If it gets really bad, obviously I'm going to leave. But I think her knowing that may cause her to intentionally cross those boundaries to get what she wants.
ImAwake,
Get a spray bottle and fill it with cold water. Spray her in the face when she crosses your boundaries.
ImAwake,
Get a spray bottle and fill it with cold water. Spray her in the face when she crosses your boundaries.
Rofl! I needed that laugh, thanks!
Originally Posted By: doodler
ImAwake,
Get a spray bottle and fill it with cold water. Spray her in the face when she crosses your boundaries.
Rofl! I needed that laugh, thanks!
I can depend on Doodler to give me at least one good laugh a day.
I started to clean up and fall into the same old patterns of catering to her tantrums.
I would say to start with the catering to her tantrums. I hate to say it, and don't tell the other women I said so.......but, a lot of wives have done things like this for a long, long time. Of course, there are a few of us that never do. We use other methods. (JK)
Anywho......your W acts like a spoiled child who doesn't get what she wants and throws herself down on floor, screaming & kicking. Don't you hate seeing kids act this way in public? I want to walk over and tell the parent what to do to permanently stop the fit throwing.
You need to know how to stop your W from throwing fits. And, just as with spoiled kids, you don't get her to do it by catering to her. First of all, you have to let them see who is in charge. As long as the fits work, they are the one in charge! Of course, you can't spank a grown woman (although, we did have a H who reported that he spanked his WW......, I wouldn't recommend it).
I would start by ignoring her and going about my business, GAL, or play with the kids, get in the car and take a long drive......do anything but give her the attention (or her way) the trantrom intended to receive. Do not try to comfort her, and don't validate. She should not be rewarded in any way for that type of behavior. Do not behave as if you are her employee.
WW's want the best of both worlds.....the one with family, and the one that is pure fantasy. My advice is to stop giving her the guy who has played Mr. Nice Guy. You know, the one she wipes her feet on?
She came and wanted to talk last night. So we talked for a while. The whole time she was trying to blame me for everything, stormed out multiple times, sobbed within earshot multiple times expecting the usual comfort. But I stayed strong. She then spewed at me and did everything she could think of to test me. I talked with a very firm voice without yelling or anything and put her in her place as far as her recent behavior. She still stuck to her guns for a bit, but then surprisingly brought up MC herself! She had been talking to a friend of ours that seems I be getting through to her. I didn't not jump anxiously at this suggestion, I just said I would have to think about it.
Today she calls me for some non R issues we had to talk about, but when we were done she said she would like to spend some time with me tonight. I told her that I don't know, that it didn't make sense to hang out at this point. Shecsaid she's doing the best she can, whatever that means. She had such a sweet voice when talking to me today. It feels like she's trying to nice me into cake eating.
Yes during the talk last night I had a chance to address the tantrum. W hates that word, and refuses to accept what she did as a tantrum but W admits she didn't handle it well and apologized. Although it took a while to come to that. She had some skewed view that needed me to help clean before she apologized for her behavior. Haha, nope.
Thanks again Sandi. Everything you are saying makes perfect sense now. I'm really starting to get in that mental space I need to be in.
Also the spanking idea might work for a moment, but would quickly turn into a whole other scenario. Haha
You did a great job!! I laughed at the part of her sobbing in earshot. If you will stick to your guns, you will see her do some silly/childish things to get attention.
I loved your response of her wanting to spend time together tonight, and how you quickly spotted her sweet tone of voice and how nice she was acting. It's all an act. She is going to test you like crazy. She doesn't want to lose her power over you, so stay on guard.
I try to warn newcomers to not misunderstand the actions of a WW. Most H's are desperately looking for some sign that what they are doing is working. However, they are looking for the wrong reaction. The WW is going to try a lot of things b/c she is so manipulative. She knows you better than anyone, and that includes what you like about her. But instead of seeing her enticing behavior as a positive sign.....pull back real quick. She's just playing games.
The WW has a long process to experience before she is ready to be the wife she use to be. Your work is to stop treating her as though she is special anymore. Instead, look at her as a rebellious teenager, and you'll hit pretty close to the reality. Of course, you don't tell her any of this.....b/c you want to be effective in what you do.
The WW must work really hard to get back the H she was ready to dump. The quickest way a man can turn the dynamics around is for him to become (as seen by his attitude/actions) the dumper.....and her to become the dumpee. You would be surprised to know that the very few WW's who have come the board, reported that it was when their H let go...... was their turning around point. But the longer the H clinged, catered, and tried to persuade the WW to give the M another try......she was turned off and wanted to get away from him.
So, don't think her sudden sweetness, sexiness, or interest in you is some positive sign she is having second thoughts. She is merely trying to get you back under her thumb again. Women learned a long time ago how to turn on the charm for their own benefit.
It is important that you make yourself unavailable to her. I know that may sound completely opposite of other advice, but it's about what works and what doesn't work.......and it's about timing. If you succeed and she comes out of her waywardness.....then the timing will be right to do all those things you would love to be doing now. But first, you have to get her respect and admiration.
I would like to suggest something else. Do not act as if you are impressed with her. I don't mean to see how rude you can be (if she is behaving herself). But when she is testing you with all her little tricks......don't act impressed by giving her the response she wants. Know what I mean? If nothing else, a man could act bored with her charades.......or even look as if he is amused at her antics. It lets her know that her tricks no longer work.
You had it down pat in your last couple of posts!
W has "convinced" me to go to MC together. She has also agreed to not contact other men and is for transparency with our phones and accounts. Funny how all of this works when DBing properly.
I told her: there is a lot of work to do. We need to be ready for bumps in the road and be able to work through them. We can't run away everytime we have a problem.
She asked but how will we know if we aren't going to work out? I said: if we ended up at this point again, our worst, that I wouldnt imagine much of a future for us. I'm not going to be in a R that involves breaking up over and over. We need to make a plan and make changes to have a better life with each other. I'm not as concerned with the future as I am with living life fully right now. I know you are scared and you worry lot, but let's just take care of what we need to and live.
...
I feel like a stronger man than I ever have going through this process. I had read a series of articles on husbandly leadership that helped at first (all which agrees with DBing ideas). I also read one of Eckhart Tolle's books which help me gain understanding and compassion for others that I lacked...But this site/community really breaks down personal growth and troubled relationships into invaluable and practical advice. I can't say thank you enough to Michele and the community for all of the gems and support I found here. I will definitely keep posting here. I'm sure I will need to make plenty of adjustments as I go.
On to the next step!
W has had some huge swings in the last few days, but now that she is more open to listening I have been able to bring it back to reality a lot quicker. I think she realizes now that this is a turning point in our R that needs her attention. We even discussed some past hurt and cleared up the reasons behind some of it. Surprisingly this went really well, now that I can explain more about what was going on with me back then (at the time I had no clue what I was feeling, just a tornado of emotions/thoughts). W actually took this in, didn't turn it into a fight like she usually does, and said that she loves that I am opening up. Wow! She has been opening up a little more each time we talk, and I continue to validate as best as I can (I'm not great at it, but good enough to get here I suppose).
We seem to be slowly moving in the right direction to work things out. I am making it a point to not have too many expectations or to think too far in the future, as I have noticed this encourages my recent dependent nature. Keeping things cool and letting things flow is the ongoing goal for me.
And.......don't try to be the MC yourself.
Hello ImAwake,
Sandi is right about you not being the MC yourself. You didn't break your wife and you can't fix her.
This could be more temperature checking making sure that you are still a viable Plan B.
You are at a very fragile point in this relationship and it would be extremely helpful to know what your next move should be. Feel free to give me a call at 303-444-7004 to discuss how we can best help you determine what to do next.
Cristy
Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004
Sandi and Christy - Yes we are still planning to go to MC. I understand that I can't fix her, I am just happy to see her making steps to work on her issues. We both know we have a lot to work on ourselves in addition to our R.
Also yes, I realize this could be another big temp check. I am prepared for this and I'm maintaining some healthy space to be able to shift back into detachment easily if I need to.
Me and W go out with some friends last night, but I have work in the morning so we say were not going to stay out late. Of course the time comes and and one of her friends shows up late so she wants to stay. Ok, that's fine we will stay out a little later. Then it is really late and it's time to go. I tell her we need to go and she tells me to go ahead and go home and she will get a ride home. I give her another chance to rethink that idea, but no she wants to stay and play pool. We are trying to "work things out" but youre not going to go home with your man that has been showing you so much love and compassion lately?
...I go home and move her pillow to the couch. I'm not going to stand for this crap. She still wants to go out on her own and pretend to be working on things with me? Nope.
When she gets home she wakes me up to try to fight with me and tell me how horrible I am for putting her on the couch. I don't remember much of what she was said, since I was half asleep with alcohol in my system, but it was clear she wasn't happy. I didn't buy into the fight, and just went back to sleep.
Me and W go out with some friends last night, but I have work in the morning so we say were not going to stay out late. Of course the time comes and and one of her friends shows up late so she wants to stay. Ok, that's fine we will stay out a little later. Then it is really late and it's time to go. I tell her we need to go and she tells me to go ahead and go home and she will get a ride home. I give her another chance to rethink that idea, but no she wants to stay and play pool. We are trying to "work things out" but youre not going to go home with your man that has been showing you so much love and compassion lately?
...I go home and move her pillow to the couch. I'm not going to stand for this crap. She still wants to go out on her own and pretend to be working on things with me? Nope.
When she gets home she wakes me up to try to fight with me and tell me how horrible I am for putting her on the couch. I don't remember much of what she was said, since I was half asleep with alcohol in my system, but it was clear she wasn't happy. I didn't buy into the fight, and just went back to sleep.
I have a hard time remembering the details of everyone's sitch. Is or was your wife having an affair?
In the absence of a situation that requires extra transparency and monitoring, I don't see that she did anything wrong except waking you up to fight instead of just crawling into bed.
She has never admitted to an affair, but I suspect an EA.
We agreed to not stay out late, since I have to get up early for work. We are supposedly trying to piece our R back together. Going out to bars without each other isnt a good idea for us given our history, especially right now in this critical time.
Thanks for explaining. I was missing the history piece.
We are also piecing, and one of the things that has been helpful ifor us is to realize that it's OK for us to function socially as individuals, but we don't have a history that makes that problematic.
So she apologized the next day for not coming home with me, seemed legit. But now she says I took it too far by putting her pillow out for her to sleep on the couch that night. She says she's "not going to have that held over my head", which seems like WW speak for "I'm going to try to hold this over your head".
She's hasn't been sleeping in the MBR for the past couple of nights because of this. She also said she doesn't want to risk getting kicked out of bed again. I didn't do anything wrong by wanting space that night, but she seems to be fishing for an apology and wanting to blame me for something. That is usually what happens when she apologizes.
Now she has transitioned right back to treating me cold, and doing things for attention then rejecting any attention that I give. Then accuses me of not caring...its sad to see someone tear themselves down and then blame me each step of the way. I'm doing my best not to take his personal, but this is difficult. I'm taking a step back and continuing detachment and GAL.
We are taking things a lot slower now. She is still out if the MBR and it seems she will continue to be for a while. In all honesty I am happy with her in another room. I have felt a lot of pressure to "keep her happy" while working on our R. The personal space I have feels really good. We have been spending time together, but it's much more comfortable than before. I think I was putting a lot of pressure on myself to be close to her to make up for lost time, but this was killing the vibe of it all and causing her to pull back. I have made it a point to give it a month of just hanging out with W in this chill mode, which seems to be going well. This is also helping to reduce the impulsive changes in my behaviour. I have been flipfloping with her moods, giving up on her and being a little cold, then comforting her when I saw that she was hurting. Not good. To be more consistent and to not identify her with negatives I came up with "give up on her actions, but don't give up on her". Maybe theres a better way to word that, but it is helping with my overall view of the situation.
ImAwake,
I think you've arrived at the mustache stage of DB. You have to sneak into your wife's room while she's asleep and draw a mustache on her using a permanent marker. She'll never know it was you that did it.
Doodler, Lol yes! She'll never know...
W is back to her routine of going out on her own until 12AM+. This is a difficult morning for me. I've been pretty strong lately, but I'm so disappointed in her it's really got me down.
We agreed to not stay out late, since I have to get up early for work. We are supposedly trying to piece our R back together. Going out to bars without each other isnt a good idea for us given our history, especially right now in this critical time.
We are taking things a lot slower now. She is still out if the MBR and it seems she will continue to be for a while. In all honesty I am happy with her in another room. I have felt a lot of pressure to "keep her happy" while working on our R. The personal space I have feels really good. We have been spending time together, but it's much more comfortable than before.
W is back to her routine of going out on her own until 12AM+. This is a difficult morning for me. I've been pretty strong lately, but I'm so disappointed in her it's really got me down.
When the two of you agreed to not staying out late, going to bars, etc.......were there to be any consequences if either of you did not honor the agreement?
I want to comment about a few things. Okay, she agreed to transparency with her phone accounts? But did she agree for you to look at her phone
messages without any notice/warning from you? Transparency means completely in the open and nothing is hidden. If a WW agrees to transparency, it helps her as much as it helps the H.....just in different ways.
She tested you right off the bat, and you moved her pillow to the couch. She reacted in true WW drama, and twisted things around to where she was spotlighting on you, instead of the truth about her disrespectful decisions that night. What she did by twisting things around is an old manipulative trick, and you need to see it for what it is!
She has conveniently created an "excuse" to start sleeping in a separate bedroom. But it's not based on the true facts. She says it's b/c her H threw her out of the MBR and she was so
afraid of being kicked out again. Yeah, right! She didn't do a thing she didn't want to. She played you.
If a man feels relieved from the pressure of his W being in the same bedroom, warning bells go off in my head. The first thing I wonder is how long has he lived under that kind of pressure. There should be a little meaning behind "A man's castle is his home", don't you think? You are trying to accept what she's throwing out there, but she is disrespecting you and maybe you just don't know what to do about it. So, you tell yourself you're taking things slow and you like the new setup.
Do you know why you are feeling so low today? I suggest it's b/c you have been waiting for
her to make changes. You have been waiting for
her to do the work.....and make your job so much easier. You have been watching her do whatever she wants......without any consequences for the disrespect she is showing.
I don't think she is anywhere close to being serious about piecing the M back together. Not as long as she can throw a few breadcrumbs and continue to behave like a girl gone wild.
You can't control her, but you can influence her by
your attitude and actions. As long as you are hanging out with her and not causing any waves......don't expect her to change for the better. She is wayward. She doesn't
have to be in an affair to be wayward. Waywardness is about disrespect, anger, and rebelling.
After that night I told her that she would not be sleeping in our MBR if she wanted to just do her own thing. I said "my bed" actually which made her furious. Yes I see that she just manipulated the situation to get out of the bedroom again.
Transparency was not real. She was upset and lied to me about something she said to one of our friends...I questioned it and asked to see the text and she had to admit to lying. She is still guarded with her phone.
I have felt pressure to "make her happy" from the beginning of our R. She doesn't take any responsibility for our R getting to this point. She isn't putting anything into working on us at all and expects me to "go out of my way" for her. Which translates "you make us better while I sit back and do whatever the hell I want". I'm done with that crap. I told her earlier that we need to just work on ourselves and not worry about "us" for now. Which brought on some spewing and fishing for support while doing it. Shes not willing to do anything different to make our situation better.
Obviously, there is a lot more that could be said about being happy with each other, and in the MR...........but cutting to the chase here, you are not responsible for your W's personal happiness. I mean, we shouldn't intentionally try to cause unhappiness for anyone, but we can't
make another person happy..........if they don't want it. Happiness is a choice. I wanted to disagree when I first heard that statement, and then I read some books on the subject. I wanted to disagree about love being a choice, too. Well, I don't disagree, now. I have known one or two people who had such a bad attitude that they dared anyone to try to make them happy!
So, relieve yourself from that emotional pressure of trying to make your W happy. I don't have time to go into it, but I can understand how you acting on that belief, could enable your W in becoming somewhat spoiled and develop a habit of blamming you for whatever problems that cause her to feel less than perfectly happy. And, I can see how you would want to avoid conflict and/or do anything that might cause her mood to be bad.....maybe even to the point of you becoming more submissive, taking more blame, and eventually, losing sight of the man you once were.
Well, you are relieved of those incorrect responsibilities. You need to write a new job description for yourself.
Thanks Sandi.
This pressure I have been feeling is obviously encouraged by WW. I have a healthier view of happiness responsibility now, but she knows how to sneak those old thought patterns back in with guilt and blame. I see that I'm still susceptible to these tactics, but I'm getting better at spotting them.
The avoiding conflict part is what I am putting a lot of work into right now. I am not holding back anymore, but I am also not out of control angry like I have been in the past. I can talk with a confident firm voice when needed without yelling or being disrespectful, which is a huge deal for me. Of course confirmation and support here has been helping with that!
Job description eh? That sounds like a good exercise.
This pressure I have been feeling is obviously encouraged by WW. I have a healthier view of happiness responsibility now, but she knows how to sneak those old thought patterns back in with guilt and blame. I see that I'm still susceptible to these tactics, but I'm getting better at spotting them.
That is how she manipulates you. She pulls the guilt card on you, to get her own selfish way.
The avoiding conflict part is what I am putting a lot of work into right now. I am not holding back anymore, but I am also not out of control angry like I have been in the past. I can talk with a confident firm voice when needed without yelling or being disrespectful, which is a huge deal for me. Of course confirmation and support here has been helping with that!
I think avoiding conflict is a pattern a lot of H's fall into, and it really causes the W to become very bossy, demanding, entitled, etc. Don't be afraid of her dramatics. When she sees you won't back down from her screaming, she'll bring on the tears. Just remember it's all manipulation. Any female can shed tears for a dramatic effect. Don't act sorry for her. Don't comfort her. Hold the line and don't back down and give in to what she wants.
Avoiding conflict is her thing mostly now. Of course she is allowed to poke and try to start conflict, but when a reasonable question is asked of her she wants to "not make things tense". I have been pointing it out saying that avoiding tension and conflict is how we made more problems between us. She doesn't argue with this, but uses her goto "I don't know" response which is her number one avoidance tactic!
I forgot to mention I went to church (Christian). I haven't been in 5 years. W was supposed to go with me but she backed out thinking I would too, which fits with my old behavior. I went without her. She had been very cold earlier so I expected more of the same when I got home. But she actually apologized for her attitude earlier, she made me some food and was happy and talking. Hmm, that's different.
WW is a spoiled brat. I have been seeing it more and more lately. I have been letting the detachment slip a little bit, and getting frustrated in the process. The problem has been our mutual friends inviting us out a lot, so we usually means up going together. This must change. She doesn't feel like she losing anything.
I've been going through your posts again and might have missed it but did you ever read DB or DR?
No actually I haven't. I've only read posts here and read articles/watched videos from MWD.
Is there any reason why you haven't? It's essential to read them so that you can see where your M broke down based on your own history that we don't know about.
It's important that you do the work so you know what to change. Reading other people's posts are only good for their situation.
Check your local library - they may have a copy or be able to get one on inter-library loan.
Yes I'm still here. I have been trying to avoid W finding out about this site and DB methods by not ordering the books online. I do need to read them though. I'll check out the library and book stores soon.
ImAwake - you could also get a pre-paid VISA and use that to order online with. Have the books delivered to a neutral location. If the library is your preference see if you could get them via inter-library loan if your local branch doesn't carry them. I don't know how many libraries carry them though - the weren't available to me that way but I was able to find DB at a retail location.
ImAwake -- can you order online and have it shipped to your work? Also, many bookstores will special order books for you, and you just go pick it up at their store.