I am posting this in hopes of gaining some understanding of where my relationship stands, particularly why my spouse is distancing herself the way she is, and what I could /should do to repair our marriage. I’d like to start by saying we both Love each other, there has been no abuse, wandering, etc., actions that have strained our relationship. Here is my story (sorry about rambling):
A little background - My wife and I have worked together (in the same office) for 11 years, we started dating 9 1/2 years ago and married 8 years ago. We do not argue much (have only had maybe 3 fights ever). We have a son who is 16 (he is my step son but I consider him my son), we wanted children together but after 2 years of trying she was eventually diagnosed with low egg count and can’t have children, she wanted to get a donor egg but I resisted because of the cost (like 50k). I take care of the home maintenance and improvements, and do all the dishes, most of the cooking, taking out all the garbage; she takes care of all the school activities/requirements, does my sons and her laundry regularly (but rarely does mine) and cleans the house when we have people coming over, but not much more than that. About 2 ½ years ago, we bought a much more expensive house, and at around the same time my job duties and expectations got drastically altered and I felt tremendous stress and I began to suffer from depression. I then began to hide from life as much as possible, a regular day had me going to work, coming home, making a cocktail (@ 2 or 3 a day), sitting on the couch and either watching TV or playing games on my iPad, until it was time for bed (although I would do chores). I obviously disengaged from life, only going out to the occasional family or friend activities, I would go to maybe 1 out of every 3 outings, and no longer did anything by myself other than sit on couch. I gained about 20 lbs, although I wasn’t in great shape prior. During that period of time, my W and I did not fight, we would kiss each other hello and goodbye, occasionally hold each other when out and about, but there was very little communication going on between us and very little intimacy (maybe twice a year, very little cuddling), I knew that I wasn’t doing much living, but I was so disengaged from my wife that I thought we were good. My Wife joined the volunteer firefighter department and started fire training 2 months ago, and that currently takes ALL of her time; she only spends about 10 hours a week at home with me and son where she isn’t studying.
1 month ago we went out with family to my sons NHS induction, and I noticed my wife was ignoring me, such as she didn’t say hi when she arrived (I had gone early to take my son), she didn’t want me in the picture of her and my son next to the NHS sign, etc. The more I thought about it, the angrier I got, because I felt like she ignored me the whole night. The next day I didn’t want to say anything I would regret, so I gave the silent treatment, which she noticed and did the same to me, then at night she went to fire class, so we weren’t able to talk. The next morning my anger had waned, so I made her coffee in the morning (which I do every day), and told her that I was sorry for the silent treatment yesterday but I was upset and didn’t want to say something I didn’t mean. I told her I’d like to talk to her that evening after work. While her and I were having dinner (I’ll call D-day for now on), she asked me what I wanted to talk about and I told her that I felt like she had disengaged from me at the NHS function, and that it had hurt me. She replied that for the last year and a half I had disengaged from her and our son, participated in almost no planned activities, that there was no intimacy between us and we were more like good friends than husband and wife She said that she tried to be supportive over the last 1 ½ years of what I was going through, but she felt like my entire life was sitting on the couch watching tv and playing games, then stated “so yeah, I have disengaged from you”. For the most part everything she said was spot on, I knew it because I thought it about myself, but I could tell for the first time how much it had hurt her. I stated that I first noticed her disengagement 2 days ago and I was now talking to her about it, then asked her why in 1 ½ years she never brought it up and talked to me about it (I know that harboring feelings like that can kill a relationship, and was upset that she never addressed it straightforward and allowed me to make a decision to change or not to improve). She said that although she never came right out and told me how she was feeling, she would try and encourage me to do things and I wouldn’t, and that when she would try and initiate intimacy I would roll over and go to sleep, and that she would put pretty dresses on and model them for me but I would never comment on how beautiful she is (fyi – my wife is way out of my league looks wise, I’m not bad but she is crazy sexy, inshape and young looking, she frequently gets confused as my daughter, she’s 40 and looks 25)
After that conversation, I went into a deeper depressive state, pretty much lost control of my emotions, and convinced myself that since she waited 1 ½ years to address these things that hurt her, she was done with our marriage and it was just a matter when she would leave, not if. So I started analyzing everything she did, or didn’t do, and so began my extreme begging, pleading, basically pushing her away. I immediately started working on my wrongs, I started exercising, stopped drinking, hanging out with my son (who immediately saw the changes and commented to my wife). I would try and initiate intimacy (because that’s what she wanted, right?) and she would stop me and give some excuse, so I would try again the next day and next, rinse and repeat. When asked why we couldn’t be intimate the first answer was I didn’t say that, then it became all these changes are too much, I don’t know how to handle all of this, and now it’s because it’s been so long I just don’t desire physical intimacy right now.
Ok, going to try and stop rambling, here are the cliff notes of the month since D-day:
• I have been reading all about marriage repair, I’ve gone to a therapist twice and my therapist wants to meet with her before meeting with us both at same time, so she will be going.
• She is in a great place personally, meeting goals (becoming a firefighter), in great shape, hanging out with new and old friends; I’m trying to find myself, exercising, working out, but I’ve lost contact with my own friends over the last few years when I was depressed and never wanted to do anything. Basically she is in a great place, confident, and I’m insecure and find myself being clingy to her to reassure me.
• I feel like I am doing everything I can to improve myself and our marriage, but I feel like she is not doing anything, and even putting our marriage on back burner to everything else.
• I believe her when she says I have nothing to be jealous about, but she is always on her phone, and I am pretty sure she is communicating through group me but I don’t have access to that account to check, if I did, I would secretly check it.
• She starting going out with her fireclass or people from the firestation as a group to local bar/restaurant, about once every two weeks, stays out to about 1:30am (this caused me to be insecure and start distrusting her, I had convinced myself that she was interested physically or mentally to someone else, and in our 8 year marriage she had never gone out with anyone but close friends I know well). She has opened up to me about who goes and what they do, and I feel better about it now, and trust that she won’t cheat, but it still hurt me when she goes out without me, since I tried for a week to go on a date with her and she had to cancel (I’ve given up trying and she hasn’t asked me out). Also, on the night we were supposed to go out, she had to take a fire test online, so while she was studying and taking the test, I was on the couch and fell asleep. When she finished, she saw that I was asleep and went to a local bar for about 30 minutes to watch a UFC fight by herself before she had to go pick our son up from a party. I happened to wake up and was confused when she wasn’t home, I did find my iphone and found out she was at the local bar, and when she didn’t tell me after getting back, I called her out on it. She later told me it really upset her that I did the find my iphone thing.
• Prior to D-day, my wife did not shy away from any attention from me, and if I wanted to initiate intimacy it was not an issue, now it’s not an option, but no information from her on why other than that it’s been so long she doesn’t feel into it.
• Snuggling is ok, but she said yesterday my constant hugging and touching is too much, so yesterday I decided I would back away from everything but snuggling (I feel like we need to keep some physical contact to be healthy)
• I have slowly gotten out of my deep depressive state where I couldn’t control my emotions, and feel like I’m doing much less to pressure her; I stopped needing to always ask her why she did this or that (I still want to, but I’m much better at not expressing it).
• I don’t feel like she is putting any effort into repairing us (I sent her an email and it took her two days to read it), says she didn’t have time to read it before, but she spent tons of time on social media(it’s always been an issue with me how much time she spends on social media).
• Whenever I ask questions about what she wants or how she sees us repairing us, she says she has to think about it, but then never comes back to me to tell me anything.
• She says that I don’t need to worry about her leaving, that she wants to work on our marriage and be close again, but she is overwhelmed with work and fireschool and just needs time to get through all of that (I think that our marriage should come first). I feel as though if she was showing me love and affection, that I could wait on doing the hard work of both committing to make things better, but I feel like there is no emotional or physical connection with us right now, and it is hard for me to believe that waiting is a good thing.
• At this moment, She says ILU when coming and going, she kisses hello and goodbye with a hug, but no other physical contact initiated by her. She is ok with snuggling. She talks to me, but only non-emotional stuff, not anything about how she feels, what she would like, etc… Any deep conversations I have to initiate, and they annoy her.
• Some things she doesn’t do hurts me a lot, for example I’ve made it clear that I hate that I have gone to bed alone every day for the last two weeks, she is either in class late, out with her classmates, or home and goes to bed much later than me; last night we were both home (after I had decided to disengage from her) so I walked by her in the other room and just said goodnight and kept going, she stopped me and said she thought I would come give her a good night kiss so I did, but she made no effort to go to bed with me so I didn’t have to alone. She gives me something (kiss goodnight) but not what I’ve told her I would appreciate.
That’s a lot of information, I’m not sure what is useful and what is not, but please ask questions if you don’t understand anything. I’m trying to figure out what I should do at this stage. Not sure if I should try and disengage from her more, or just keep things were they are if they are going ok (but nothing seems to be improving); I really want to ask her if I can read her group-me texts but not sure that she would be ok with that; I deep down believe there isn’t anything bad in there, but I can’t help but want to have firsthand knowledge about what it is she is always talking about on her phone, and with whom. How bad would it be to ask, I’m pretty sure she would get angry if I ask, and I honestly don’t know if she would even let me which might make me more suspicious.
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH. Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2578224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Hi Coconut,
I'm relatively new here too, so my only words of wisdom would be to get the Divorce Remedy book by Michelle Davis Weiner read it three times and then you will most likely know what to do.
One thing for sure, be grateful you have what contact you do have now...you sound like a 'pursuer' like me.
Be careful you don't pursue too much.
Get the book. Watch Michelle's videos on youtube.
I am sure some vets on this forum will come by and make some great recommendations.
Good luck!
Coconut:
Man - I wish I was as aware of what is going on as you are about a year ago and tried to fix things then. In some ways it sounds like my story in that I was both not a part of my W's life and clinging at the same time. It ended up driving her away and into the arms of another man.
I would suggest looking around this site and in the books for some of the articles about the "Walk Away Wife" (WAW). The advice I've gotten and tried to follow is to stop focusing so much on my W and to focus on GAL and rebuilding the "me" that I used to be. I need to do this both to become a strong and independent enough person to stand on my own and to hopefully become a person that my W would be happy to be married to again. This also means giving her the space to discover who she is herself.
Good luck.
Coconut,
It sounds like you are in a much better position than some of us. If W asks for space, give her space. Have no expectations. If you get positive responses from her, keep doing things that will result in positive outcomes without talking about the R. Keep posting, you will get good feedback from vets on this site.
I was in your exact shoes 6 months ago, right down to me being the one who was not into it sexually. I blew it bigtime, and now I am one step away from being divorced.
I think like others have said, the jist of it is, you have to get back to being you. You can't force her to be attracted to you again. She has to decide that you are worth letting her guard down for. Focus on the GAL, listen to her, but don't pursue. You've got to figure out who you were and get back to being that guy. You will be happier, and she will notice.
Dang it, I have been strong for the last few days, but had a moment of weakness today. I went online to pay phone bill, and noticed my wife had almost 900 texts this month, and only about 20 of those are with me... I automatically wanted to go into detective mode, so I sorted the texts by phone number and put it in excel spreadsheet and emailed it to my self as I was leaving work. On the way home I was in turmoil, I don't want to feel like I need to check up on my spouse to trust her, but at the same time if there is/was an EA I feel like I have the right to know. I think I would understand based on my past checking out, it would be hard but I feel like I could move past it if she could.
Anyway, I narrowed my choices to forgetting about all the texts or talking to her about it... Against my better judgement, I asked her about it. I started by asking her if she would tell me about an EA if there was one, she said there isn't one and she would tell me, and when I told her why I asked she stated that as her firefighter class leader, she is constantly texting everyone in the class about requirements, sending reminders, etc. I believe her, but know kicking myself because I knew I shouldn't have asked her about it, and asking her didn't do anything for me anyways. Grrr
Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka
that I totally agree with.
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.
Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
900 texts? Sounds fishy to me... My WW said the same sort of things when her phone was going off all the time. I'm not telling you what to do, but that is a lot of texts for a person for work. There is some pattern in the numbers..
Will she let you look at the 900 texts?
CWOL, as stated in my original post, I don't know if she will let me see them. I'm pretty sure asking would frustrate her, and I don't know if I should ask.
Ok, so I asked her and still researched the text list anyway... I gotta get better at not rushing to talk with her. I found that most incoming and outgoing texts were at the exact same times, I.e. Group text that lists each number as an individual text. Other than those, there weren't any excessive texts to a single number, a few here and there, but not enough to build or sustain a romance.
I'll be asleep by the time she gets home, so won't see her till the morning, so hopefully she isn't upset about me asking.
That sounds better than your original description and her response.
Hello Coconut,
I'm so sorry for the situation you are in.
Don't be so hard on yourself regarding slipping up every now and then. Just get back on track by doing more of what is working. It is important to detach and not pursue, but it can be tricky if one of her complaints is that you have been disengaged for over a year.
You are at a very fragile point in this relationship and it would be extremely helpful to know what your next move should be. Feel free to give me a call at 303-444-7004 to discuss how we can best help you determine what to do next.
Cristy
Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004
Ok, it's been a rough day.. Last night I briefly woke up when my wife came to bed (@1230hrs), I said good night and she said g'night without any discussion.... Anyway, this morning I asked her if she was upset about me asking about the 900 texts and she said yes, we've been married almost 9 years, but all of a sudden your going through whatever it is your going through and you don't trust me all of a sudden and I feel like I'm being punished because your unhappy.....
What frustrates me is she doesn't realize that her withholding physical AND emotional intamicy is punishing me, and making me feel like we aren't even in a relationship... Right now she's full of personal challenges, work, FF academy, marriage, so I truly believe she isn't focused on the state of our marriage, but her complete lack of physical or emotional INtamicy when I'm begging for something is killing me.... Ii know she figures that she should get through the acadamy and then worry about me, but do I just wait in pain? I don't want to push her, but the only way I can disconnect is to move out, or at least move into the guest room, which she has said she doesn't want me to do,.., so I left work, told boss I needed rest of day off and I didn't want to discuss... I left and then W (who works in office) started texting and calling..
W - R u ok? Boss just told me you left for day, I'm worried (0938am)
M - No need to worry (error - not delivered) (0946)
W - Baby, please answer (0950)
M - No need to worry (1013). (I had powered off my phone, so I didn't c message)
W - of course I'm worried, you left work. What is going on? I know we had a tough discussion this morning but you wanted me to tell you how I felt & now you left work. (1015)
W - what's going on in your mind? Do you want to talk? (1015)
M- I just need to be alone (1021)
W - ok. Please tell me f you need me (1021)
M - ok, I will (1023)
W - sent meme that says - no relationship is all sunshine, but two people can share one umbrella and survive the storm together (1025)
M - I want you to know I'm turning my phone off. I'm ok, I just want some me time, I will be home tonight (1120)
W - ok baby. Can I ask what happened? (1121)
W - just know that I love you (1125)
As I go back and write this I feel silly, like she is obviously supporting me and cares about me... But here's the thing, in 4 weeks there has been no emotional or physical connection, even when I tell her I would appreciate specific things she doesn't do them... We haven't gone out in a date in over a month, but during that month she's gone out alone once, and with FF friends twice... She hasn't so much as rubbed my arm, or my head as she usually does, or anything else to shoe any physical attraction...
Hi Coconut,
It may not have been on purpose, but you did something totally different and unexpected and it got her attention.
It is easy to be conflicted when you have so many emotions and thoughts going through your head! Knowing what to do and what not to do at this point is crucial.
Cristy
Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004
You are literally where W and I were 6 months ago.
Regarding the texts. What if you find out she's hooking up with someone? Would you get a D, or still want to work it out? I am guessing you would work it out, so looking at those texts can only have a negative outcome. Once I realized that, albeit way later in the process, I stopped the snooping.
Right now is the most important time for you to GAL. Make yourself desirable.
Here is my 2x4 for you. Your texts about going home from work made you look weak. She does not want that right now. She wants to see you strong. It's fine that you took the afternoon off, but spend it at the gym. If she asks, 'hey, yeah, I just had a stressful morning, so I felt like getting out of here and hitting the gym to blow off some steam.' That way you are being vulnerable to her, but at the same time showing you will handle it with strength.
Crw, to be honest, if she is hooking up with someone else I'm out.. Not because I don't love her but because I want kids and she can't give me that... My thought is as of today, I have 2 or 3 years to have kids before I'm to old to want to do so, I don't want kids graduating high school when I'm in a nursing home. I was ok not having kids if I had her, but take her out of the equation I wan kids.. I'm good enough looking that I could find someone else, but I do want her... I just don't have to much longer to find someone else and have kids... I feel like that puts pressure on time, but it's where I'm at.
As for today, I bought some vodka and orange juice and I'm enjoying the day at a local state park.
Right coconut I am not a vet here but I will tell you this as I have been here a long time and I have screwed up many times
You HAVE TO GET THIS NOW stop perusing her you need to give her space and time and perusing her is not going to get you what you want.
Second do not snoop it will do you no good whatsoever right now she will do what she wants to do and you have to give her space.
Have you read sandies rules ?' They are golden.
I am sorry you are here.... right now you are in a far far better position than many people on here and if you do not want to end up divorced then I would strongly encourage you to read the rules and concentrate on you. She is in a totally different place to you right no
Buckle up this is going to be a bumpy ride
Wishing you well
Ghost
And... Don't believe anything she says and half of what she does... My WW told me all the same... Called me baby, told me she loved me, blah blah.. Actions! Do speak louder than words.... Do you!!! Get yourself together!!! GAL, dress nice, but some new clothes, make friends, workout, get a hobby, get your mind off her.. I did all the wrong stuff.. I acted weak... Do not leave the marital bedroom, do not leave the house!!!
Thanks for the advice, it's tough to go threw this and think about what would be the best course of action at the same time... Would it do any good to ask her to leave the marital bed until she is ready to treat it as such, or is that too much pressure... I do believe my W wants to work it out with me, but for the first time in 8 years I feel like she is a different person...
On a side note, Ihave met someone in my GAL expeditions that I could be interested in. Should I just walk away from that and focus on M, or is there benefit to keeping options open?
Agree with everything Ralph told you. Most of us have to rebuild the bridge, yours is still standing, just repair it with the methods described here.
On a side note, Ihave met someone in my GAL expeditions that I could be interested in. Should I just walk away from that and focus on M, or is there benefit to keeping options open?
I think you should walk away. Ever heard of a rebound? Work on you now, not your M, not a new R.
Backing off is hard to do, and quite frankley I'm of the mindset of let's fix it or move on.... Not sure if that's the best idea, but it's what I want and move on from there... I just sent her a text:
M - Can we talk tonight, for real what you want?
M - Daily and long term? Not sure if I fit in
[/quote]
Backing off is hard to do, and quite frankley I'm of the mindset of let's fix it or move on.... Not sure if that's the best idea, but it's what I want and move on from there... I just sent her a text:
M - Can we talk tonight, for real what you want?
M - Daily and long term? Not sure if I fit in
This is not likely to get the results you are looking for.
Unless what you want is to be divorced.
Divorced is not what I want... What I want is to understand where my loving wife Is and how to get her back,.. This cold hearted B just doesn't do it for me, and I'm tired of feeling like I'm the one puppy dogging her around, and waiting for her on nights out with friends... What I want is to end this "episode" as soon as possible... Impatient, yes I am... Ok with moving on, not really, but sometimes we don't get to choose... But the way I see it, is work on fixing what we have, or let me move on and see if having kids are still an option.
Hiya, Coconut. 😀
I'm sorry to see you are experiencing pain and confusion in your sitch. Let's have a chat about it soon. Right now I'm driving and typing on my iPhone. Hope you're not a cop waiting to bust my chops for this infraction. Hang in there! Be right back soon.
I'll wait wonka, not planning on leaving where I'm at till they kick me out... Any advice would be good in the meantime... Btw, what I did today wasn't looking for a response from her, just wanted to spend time to figure out what I wanted. It's brought lots of tears, but it feels like the the thing I needed I to do for me regardless of what I walk In to tomorrow. She works with me, but I can't let that dictate what I need to do.
Sit tight. Don't do anything rash or make any sudden moves.
In the interest of full disclosure, here is a letter I've never shared with her:
When I proposed to you, I was asking for more than your hand in marriage, I was asking you to give me your heart, to know that I would protect and cherish it; that I would be there for you not just when times were at their best or worst, but every day of the life I was asking you to build with me. It saddens me to think I went through so much time oblivious to my failures, not recognizing that I was causing so much pain, not through negative actions, but through complete inaction.
I replay our last few years in my mind, I don’t find joy in the TV shows I watched or the rest I got, I find pain in thinking of all the times I wasn’t there, on the experiences I missed and will never get back. You were so excited when your High School reunion was coming up, you couldn’t wait to see your old friends and share your new life with them. I knew what it meant to you, but yet I had my reservations due to my own insecurities, and somehow I thought you’d be ok with me not going. Although I know you tried to understand, that you wanted to let go of the pain it caused to go alone, but I’m sure it made you angry.. Angry that I had failed to hold up my promise, I promised you that I would live this life with you, be present in the good, bad and in-between, be there when you looked next to you, and yet I let you down. There were so many other experiences, time spent with friends and family, that you reached out your hand but I wasn’t there to hold it… I believe you wanted to understand, to support me in whatever it was that was eating me up inside, keeping me from living. But it took a toll on you, all the hurt and disappointment; it hardens your heart, not because you didn’t love me, but because you didn’t want me to hurt you, to stop the pain I was causing you…
I blew you kisses when you walked by, I woke you up with a kiss and an “I Love You”, you were my world and I thought I was letting you know it… I look back and cry, cry that our days weren’t all spent together, that our nights didn’t end in each other’s arms; I have the most precious wife in the world, but I often acted in a way that made you feel otherwise… I need you to know it wasn’t intentional, that in my mind there wasn’t a problem, I thought that we were living life (what the hell was I thinking).
I am sorry for all the pain I have caused you, it will take time, but I am committed to allowing you to trust me, trust that I will uphold my promise that I made to you. You are the most important person in the world to me, and I will do everything in my power to protect and cherish you,
Thank you for posting it here. We all have similar failures in our marriages. We all made mistakes, but we too easily forget all the good we did also. We are in a period of focusing on our negatives, and I will bet that these negatives were rare and not the largest part of our Ms. We are too hard on ourselves and the things we did. There may be a time in the future where we are given the chance to say we are sorry, but that is really far down the road if ever. It's good to get it out and organized though.
Yeah, I did somethings right, even if they weren't recognized, I.e. Spending 6 hours working on sprinklers while W sat on couch checking Facebook and then getting upset that I didn't want to go to a friends outing because I was tired from all the work... My biggest problem was that I hadn't read the. 5 love languages, if I had done that before, I believe our issues wouldn't be issues, but none the less, I wonder how to speed up whatever outcome is coming!
Maybe one of the most confusing things in life is trying to understand the opposite sex. You had sex maybe twice a year.......yet you thought everything was okay in the MR? You say she is beautiful, and she even tried to get your attention, and ecourage you to perk up. You said she wanted intimacy, but you were depressed and chose to withdraw from what was important to her and for the MR to thrive. HOWEVER, one time..........just one time you felt she ignored you, the tables were turned.
You blame her for not telling you how she felt when you were tuning her out. Seriously? You had no clue it would hurt her? It's her fault that you basically ignored her emotional needs? You whine to her about having to go to bed alone, and suddenly, your depression is gone and you need intimacy!! Wow, what a cure!
So........you are thinking if there is an OM, you'll just drop her a$$ and get one who can have kids............in fact, you've already had a little look...haven't you?
Do I sound as if I am not very sensitive to your situation? Do you feel I am not being fair? I am more sensitive to your situation than you could imagine. If she is not in an EA, she is probably a breath away.
A woman's desire is like a flower. Remove light & water, and her desire dies.
Listen, you've had a wake-up of sorts, and now you want her to feel the same as you. She doesn't. Do you get it? She was trying to be kind and not straight out tell you that she has no attraction for you, b/c even the WW/WAW's know the male ego can't handle it. Your begging and whining has not helped in that department. You need to stop with the emotional pressurizing and get your act together. Look in the mirror and point a finger back at you whenever you want to complain that you aren't getting enough physical affection from her.
This is not going to be fixed overnight. Find the man you need to become.
Have you become the best coconut you can be? Have you really focused on yourself and made changes for yourself that are now long lasting and here to stay? Have you lovingly dropped the rope and detached so that your S can do what she needs to do to come to whatever her conclusion brings her to? Have you made yourself a man that only a fool would leave? I know I'm still not there yet, and am not ready for us to R or D yet.
Coconut,
Here I am...like it or not! Ha. I see that Sandi has swung by here and gave you her insights into your sitch. Boy, she's bang on in her assessment and I am in agreement with her.
Before I delve further in the post, I do want to say a few things to draw your attention in regard to DBing:
-There are ZERO magic bullets
-There are ZERO quick fixes
-It is a hard, long, and rough slogging
-It requires a MINIMUM of 1 year in DBing to truly understand the basic tenets of DBing
-It is the BEST self-improvement program ever...it is for YOU only.
-It is not a ploy or tactic to win W back...no...nope.
Have you ever seen a battleship turn while out in the ocean (or a video of it)? It is done millimeter by millimeter basis. Likewise with DBing. Your M didn't take a nosedive overnight nor can it be restored overnight. Over time the M broke down due to a number of factors which you've outlined in your first post and it will take as equally long as it takes to get the M back on track.
Now let's get the nitty gritty of your sitch and the practical tools to get yourself and the M back on track.
By your own admission, you disengaged from the M for long periods of time and you filled your time with activities that did not involve W. She must have built up a wall to protect herself because of the rejection she experienced over and over is too painful for her. She is in pain and is not available to take CARE of you or your pain. You ask, "what should I be doing?"
Glad you asked and you've come to the right place for guidance. We will NEVER steer you wrong if you will listen to the vets' advice/guidance for the general DB principles really do work. Now, the MOST important advice we can give you right now is this: You MUST be a very, very patient man for there will ups and downs throughout the journey in the next several months (not next few days, next few weeks, next few months....MULTIPLE MONTHS)..aka the infamous DB Rollercoaster.
From where I sit, there is tremendous hope in your sitch for you and W do genuinely love and care about one another. The problem is the emotional disconnect between the pair of you. W is off doing her firefighting work and you are withdrawn in self-righteousness.
In order to restore the M, you MUST focus on yourself first. Learn to like and love yourself. When that cup is full, then the next step is to focus on the friendship aspect. The marital aspect comes later.
I sense and believe that you want to stay married. Walking on this path will require you to conduct yourself with honor, respect, dignity and integrity. How you treat yourself is reflected on the outside as well. As Sandi points out, don't go out chasing women for it is not how married people behave nor should at all. IT is a very, very slippery slope. You don't want to slide down that slope.
Get your head screwed on tight and really focus on DBing.
In the next post, we will examine the nuts and bolts of DBing as I don't want this post to be a long-winded one as it would cause you to lose focus.
Continued.....
Coconut, I want to say that writing that letter was a lovely thought and done with good intentions. We all DO NOT recommend DBers send out letters to the WAS for it is a form of pursuing and pressure. Letter writing can be incredibly cathartic for some LBS. Some LBS write letters, put them away, tear them up, or burn them. Again, I emphasize here for you not to send any letters to W.
Newbies struggle to grasp this concept: Words are cheap. Actions are gold. This is where we talk a lot about GAL (Get
A Life) and 180s (change patterns, actions, behaviors or issues). You are a 1 day old babe and have a long way to learn about DBing and applying the principles effectively. Use your ears more than your mouth. What I mean by this is listen and absorb what people post in the forums. Poke around, visit other threads, and post there to get more traffic here. This is a very supportive and reciprocal community. Don't be shy...go on a few threads that resonates with you and just say "hi, i am here to support you." That's fine as many newbies are tentative and lack confidence to post advice. We all learn a lot by posting comments and advice to other DBers.
The links that Cadet rolled out in his welcome post are a good place for you to start. Two in particular are crucial for you to really absorb and let them sink into your mind/cells/DNA: Sandi's Rules and Validation Cheat Sheet. These two are key to successful DBing.
Here's a step by step in DBing for you at this stage in your particular sitch:
-Back the f*ck off from W
-Be a friend to W...recapture that friendship
-Be supportive of W in her firefighting field
-You need to be more sensitive to some timing aspects
-Remember that you and W are a team (not talking about sexual/emotional intimacy here)
Examples:
I would try and initiate intimacy (because that’s what she wanted, right?) and she would stop me and give some excuse, so I would try again the next day and next, rinse and repeat. When asked why we couldn’t be intimate the first answer was I didn’t say that, then it became all these changes are too much, I don’t know how to handle all of this, and now it’s because it’s been so long I just don’t desire physical intimacy right now.
The bold section is an "assumption" on your part. That can be a bad thing in a marriage especially when communication has been problematic for the pair of you. Do you now see this?
Rinse and repeat. Do you now see why that wasn't working at all? As the DR book says, experiment and monitor results. Whatever you're doing ins't working and then you blame W. Maybe certain approaches may not work for W. This is where the 5 Love Languages (5LL) by Gary Chapman is really helpful in DBing for it aligns with DR very well.
Each person has a receiving and giving LLs. I feel filled up when I receive PT/QT (Physical Touch/Quality Time) and I give PT/AOS as a way of expressing my love/affection. What about yours? What about W's?
• She is in a great place personally, meeting goals (becoming a firefighter), in great shape, hanging out with new and old friends; I’m trying to find myself, exercising, working out, but I’ve lost contact with my own friends over the last few years when I was depressed and never wanted to do anything. Basically she is in a great place, confident, and I’m insecure and find myself being clingy to her to reassure me.
How wonderful is it to read that W seems to be really involved in activities that take her to different, new places and meeting new people. Why would you feel insecure about this aspect of W? What is the real root of your insecurity??
Your W is not responsible for your happiness. You are. YES...you are. It is incredibly unfair to place that burden on W. Wow. Take care of your own happiness and the rest will fall into place. How one can accomplish this is by engaging in hobbies and activities that give them joy. For me, it's golfing and doing artwork (just took up watercolor).
She starting going out with her fireclass or people from the firestation as a group to local bar/restaurant, about once every two weeks, stays out to about 1:30am (this caused me to be insecure and start distrusting her, I had convinced myself that she was interested physically or mentally to someone else, and in our 8 year marriage she had never gone out with anyone but close friends I know well). She has opened up to me about who goes and what they do, and I feel better about it now, and trust that she won’t cheat, but it still hurt me when she goes out without me, since I tried for a week to go on a date with her and she had to cancel (I’ve given up trying and she hasn’t asked me out). Also, on the night we were supposed to go out, she had to take a fire test online, so while she was studying and taking the test, I was on the couch and fell asleep. When she finished, she saw that I was asleep and went to a local bar for about 30 minutes to watch a UFC fight by herself before she had to go pick our son up from a party. I happened to wake up and was confused when she wasn’t home, I did find my iphone and found out she was at the local bar, and when she didn’t tell me after getting back, I called her out on it. She later told me it really upset her that I did the find my iphone thing.
Have you ever thought about joining her? Say, 'hey, I would love to go with you to meet with your fabulous friends.' This will show W that you are interested in her activities and being supportive of them. I don't get the sense that W is involved with OM. I could be wrong, but I am rarely wrong when it comes to assessing situations here in DB.
• Snuggling is ok, but she said yesterday my constant hugging and touching is too much, so yesterday I decided I would back away from everything but snuggling (I feel like we need to keep some physical contact to be healthy)
I see clashing perspectives here. Your W communicated with you that constant hugging and touching is too much for her. What has changed here? What prompted you to give her "constant" hugs and touching? I can tell you that, for me personally, I cannot stand too much hugs and touching for it is really smothering to me. I think you need to find a balance here.
To restore the friendship, you would need to take very small steps.
-Maybe you can cook dinner for two at home say 1 a week or every other week. This will allow for you and W to connect. Talk about the day, issues at work, etc. This is what I mean by being a team
-HUMOR. I cannot emphasize this enough. Humor is a really bonding agent in bringing people together. Telling jokes, funny anecdotes, self-depreciating comments are some of the fun ways to lighten the mood
-Just be a friend. Don't make any "demands" like going to bed. A casual comment would be something like this: "W, I am tried and am off to bed. I like it when you join me in going to bed because I like having my best friend with me when I fall asleep." Light and breezy. See? Use this very, very sparingly.
-Forget intimacy. Do very light touches. Touch on the forearm for 10 seconds. Touch her shoulder for 5 seconds on a different day. Non-sexual touches. No pressure, no expectations.
Do you think you can handle these steps for now?
Chin up...you'll be just fine with a bunch of good DBers coming by your thread.
I want to leave you with this final thought from Stormchaser who successfully busted a D and is now piecing with his W:
Laying in bed one night, my W said to me that she thought my going to the gym, therapy, etc, was purely a way of me trying to win her back. She also said that when she saw me continuing to do things to improve myself is when she truly began to believe I was changing for myself, not because of HER. I never said to her, "hey, look, I'm in therapy now like you wanted, I'm going to the gym now like you wanted, I'm cleaning the house like you wanted..." Because that's not what they want, nor what they want to hear.
I said to her, "I didn't like the person I was before. I'm doing something to change that." Plus, I lost over 20 lbs and I can say with honest truth, I do NOT want to go back to that unhealthy lifestyle EVER again.
My wife likes the person I am now. My kids like the guy I am now. But most importantly, I like who I am now.
How perfect is that ^^^??! Way to go to Stormchaser for "getting it!"
Hi Coconut,
I have read your sitch. I am sorry you are here. It's incredibly hard.
I was on the rollercoaster for years when my H turned my life upside down and I saw the darkest days of my life. He has been back over a year now and there is still so much work & growth to be done. Perhaps DB is a way of life--to be the best person YOU can be in hopes you will attract quality people to you, whether that is your W or someone else down the road.
But I am not going to pretend I am any vet or expert. So I'm going to say one thing here. You are lucky that Sandi & Wonka gave you the time of day! Pay attention and learn from them!!!
So keep on posting & reading and posting & reading. We are here for you, 2*4s, tough love, and all.
-Blu
Coconut,
You have just been given some REAL words of wisdom by sandi and Wonka. read it, re-red it and then read it again. these words hit me and they weren't even about me. You are MILES ahead of me in your sitch. You can do this but you have to do it right. Patience, honesty with yourself, and endurance my friend.
Sandi, thank you for that baseball bat hit to the head, although the facts are a little off I won't argue with that, because I believe if my wife would talk about how she FEELS that's exactly what she would say.... Thank you for taking your time to write it for me.
Wonka, I became insecure because in 8 years she has never gone out with people I don't know, and the first time she went she left around 6:30pm and said she was going to dinner with a group from station, but didn't get home until 1:30am. Thoughts of "sexy" firefighters danced in my head, and then her being at "dinner" till 1:30am was more than I could handle. Thank you for the advice you gave, I will make an honest attempt at backing off.
I have one question on detaching and giving space, should I stay in our bed and snuggle (which she seems to like), stay in bed on my side, or move to guest room?
Also, I did text her earlier in the day asking if we could talk about what she wants, that I didn't know if I fit in what she wants (oops, wish I hadn't done that). Should I tell her that although I asked, I don't need that talk but if she wants to talk we can?
Ps, my love language is physical touch, so not getting any touch at all combined with everything else had a lot to do with my insecurities...
I have done a lot of 180's, I've lost about 15 pounds and am feeling good physically... She is hardly ever home to see what I'm doing, and it's hard not getting her support to keep improving, but I know I gotta get passed wanting her to notice and just do it for my own well being... Going to the gym or bike riding is when I feel my best, clear headed and even a little happy and very proud of myself, just wish I could get passed wanting her recognition.
Yeah, I did somethings right, even if they weren't recognized, I.e. Spending 6 hours working on sprinklers while W sat on couch checking Facebook and then getting upset that I didn't want to go to a friends outing because I was tired from all the work... My biggest problem was that I hadn't read the. 5 love languages, if I had done that before, I believe our issues wouldn't be issues, but none the less, I wonder how to speed up whatever outcome is coming!
First of all, she could probably care less if you worked on the sprinklers. Hey, I replaced the radiator in my car, it took me 8 hours. Should she come out and hug me and tell me I'm the greatest? Of course not - it's not important to her. Now, do you see what WAS important to her? Going to the friends outing. THAT'S what is important - and by you blowing it off, doesn't help your case. Trust me - I've been there. I would mow the yard, fix the fence and all that other stuff, but when she wanted to go see a live band that night, I pulled the "I'm tired" card. That only helped add to our growing distance. Now, I don't give a crap HOW tired I am, if she wants to go out and spend quality time together, I go. Period.
We've all wanted to fast forward to see the outcome. Sorry, but life doesn't have a FF button. This is something I would say all the time - "I wish I could FF a year". Well, I'm 3 months in and I'm kinda glad I didn't FF - without it, I wouldn't have been able to make the repairs required to make the M work.
Sounds like your head is on straight, coconut. What you are feeling in wanting her recognition is normal - after all, she is your wife. That's a normal feeling - I wanted the same, and to some extent still do even we will be divorced soon. Ugh.
I have a concern that others on your thread aren't expressing. Even a lot of those texts are "group", that's an awful lot. As someone said, if she isn't in an EA she's a breath away. I would suggest that line has already been crossed. Seen it too many times on here and in my own W. and staying out to 0130? Do you believe her on what she was doing? Remember the adage on here - believe nothing of what they say...
Sorry to sound so hard, but I've seen the same thing but didn't want to believe that she'd have an affair. I believed every little lie because I was too scared to think otherwise...
Some thoughts I had on the way to work:
When I back off I feel like she keeps her guard up waiting for the next time I pressure her. The more I pressure her the longer she keeps her guard up waiting for the next time. If I don't stop, she'll never drop her guard and connect with me.
when I feel like I need her to do something for me, I need to get out & do something for myself instead.
I went back and read some of my posts from yesterday, and I want to clarify a little of what I wrote, I got drunk yesterday and wasn't level headed:
First, when I said I met someone in my GAL activities, I made it seem like we were flirting a little or something. I went to play volleyball and there was a lady on my team that I was having casual conversation and joking with. Nothing and I mean nothing happened, it was just that for the first time in 8 years I looked at somebody else and wondered what it would be like to date them. I was more asking if I should make the effort to be friends with her, but I can see that I'm going to have to limit myself to same sex friends for now..
Second, I think I'm using having kids as an excuse to justify my wanting to fix it or end it NOW. I am starting to understand the importance of patience, and understanding that it may or may not work out (I'm pretty sure it will if I can back off for a bit and take care of me), but the only answer that can be found out fast is that its not going to work out. Although I always planned on having kids, my life will not be ruined or empty by not having any of my own, I love my son to death and he more than fills that role for me..
I'd like to thank everyone for their words of encouragement, understanding, and 2x4's. I definitely can appreciate having this site as an outlet for my emotions, it makes it so much easier not to talk to my wife about everything. Counseling also helps me get it out, but that's not frequent enough..
ps - I wrote that letter a day or two after D-day, I wasn't sure if I wanted to give it to her, but it helped me to write it and I won't share it with her.
Jeep, I'm sorry to hear about the pending D, I hope you've been able to find what makes you happy and that is helping you deal with the sitch.
I fully believe she is not having an EA, or at least that she doesn't realize she is. But at this point, I've talked to her about it 3 or 4 times, I can't keep asking because it will upset and pressure her, and there's not anything I can do about it at this point. Honestly, if I keep working on me, I will be handle the news better later than now. I'm feeling better about myself than I have for the last few years, and I look forward to putting in the work to really improve..
It all seems so easy when your level headed and your not thinking about the issues, hopefully I can find the strength to do the things I need to do when I'm hurting.
Thanks, Coconut. This has been a long, hard road. Over a year now. I did everything I possibly - and some things I shouldn't. I learned, that for some such as my with her issues, that many of the DB techniques are counter productive and actually do the opposite of what they intend. Unfortunately, my W is so damaged that no matter what I do it doesn't matter - she's done and as her self defense issues developed from her abusive childhood, she packaged her feelings up in a little box and put it somewhere behind those walls. I'm having a rough time, and as the divorce process is picking up steam it's just getting tougher.
I also asked mine several times about her EA (which went PA) and she denied it, too. Hopefully yours isn't, and if she is then any suspicion will send her underground. She will trip up - they always do.
Something struck me about your thinking about the volleyball chick. If you were wondering about what it'd be like dating her, then that is a flag that needs to be examined - not her, mind you, but your own feelings. To me that suggests that something isn't right. Just my two cents...
Hi coconut,
I have read many of your posts, not all, but enough to know that we have a lot in common.
The problem with you being the one who is always reaching out, touching etc, is that, I could be wrong, but often it comes from the inner insecurity vs. real giving. The other big thing is that it never gives the other person a chance or the space to come TOWARDS you. I experienced this a lot with my first husband.
I found it very helpful in past weeks to learn about attachment theory. Check it out. Unless I am totally wrong, you and I both have the anxious/preoccupied style and are often attracted to the avoidant types. Here is a link to get you started,
There is a lot of info on the web if you think this may be helpful. It is hard for those of us who are touchy/feely types to imagine not wanting to be hugged.
This is one thing that MWD talks about in DR book - what works for us may not be what works for them.
The sad part of my sitch/ and the gift, is admitting and really looking at my own codependent behaviors that are just NOT helpful and push the S away.
Hope this helps.
Gotta get to work.
Be gentle with yourself.
LandC, I think you nailed my personality. I have a lot of reading to do tonight, I think I'm gonna walk over to a local park today and spend some time reading. i'll just tell the wife I'm heading out, and if pressed that I'm going to spend time at the park (but not about the reading material).
recap of the day so far..
I woke up W this morning after not seeing her at all yesterday, and I felt guilty for worrying her yesterday, so I apologized for taking off and not answering her right away when she text'd that she was worried about me... I then told her that I knew I text'd her and said I would like to talk about her wants, but that after clearing my head yesterday I no longer needed that talk, we could if she wanted, but that I can wait until she is ready to discuss. She seemed to appreciate me backing off of that.
then at work, she came to my office about some work stuff, she told me that she had called my counselor and the only appointments she could get this week interfered with her Karate class or with her leaving town to visit her friend for b-day. She said that she guessed she would schedule the appointment and wait to go on trip until after the appointment (about 3 hrs later than she wanted and it's a 4 hour drive). I told her that I appreciate her wanting to go to counseling with me, and that she could make the appointment for next week because I didn't want it to interfere with her schedule / plans. She was pleasantly surprised because she knows how bad I have been wanting her to go to counseling so we can start to fix things, but she didn't know that I have switched focus to me for now so I can be better, but I think I got brownie points for that.
HELP, just confirmed A, wife says not physical but I don't know. I posted texts on Facebook and tagged her, she wants me to take it down, should I?
Also, don't start a new thread until you reach 100 posts.
Wow... To all of those who called it, I guess we are all in here for the same reasons, and I guess the patterns are to similar to ignore. So wife went to firehouse tonight to practice stuff, and I go to bed. I wake up at 1230am to see if she was home, and she was asleep on the couch, so I went to wake her to cone to bed, then saw her phone and grabbed that instead. Well, I've been trying to see her group me acct, and low and behold, it was finally open. Well, my heart sank, there it was as I suspected, text between her and another firefighter... I love you this and that. I went into the bedroom looking at the phone, and I heard her wake up, so I ran outside and hid while I went through the text string. I sent myself emails of the texts, then went to the main back door where she was and knocked... She unlocked the door and I just handed her the phone with the texts open and walked away.
Her reaction was anger, I went into the bedroom, grabbed a couple of drawers of clothes and threw them out of the bedroom.. She came at me loud and hard, screaming at me to leave her [censored] alone, I told her I would have thought that she would want her stuff since she will not share my marital bed. She called me crazy and started trying to push me out of her way, I held my ground for a minute and she started threatening violence, I told her that neither of us wants it to go there and let her in the room, but again put my foot down and told her that she does not deserve to sleep in our marital bed, and I won't stand for it.
I must say that I'm amazed that she didn't show any remorse, or pain, just anger and no tears. I told her to get whatever she needs out of the bedroom and I went into living room and posted "you know that moment when your world falls apart", tagged her and then attached the texts. Then I went back in bdrm and asked her why she let me stay in the house when I offered to leave, and why she didn't just kick me out if she wanted to move on... She said cause I really love you, and want us to work. I told her I gave her to much credit when I had previously told her that I didn't believe she would wait to find someone before she ended us if she wasn't happy, and she laughed.
I asked if he was married and she said yes, and does his wife know? No... Check your Facebook
After I walked away, she grabbed my phone and took down the post, then she asked me to delete all the texts... I couldn't believe the nerve, but I said no.. I told her I won't use them while I'm emotional, but I was keeping them.. She kept asking. Finally I said if I delete the photos in the hopes of working threw this, what are you going to do to help us get through this? No answer from her, so I say will you drop out of FF program, she said no. I asked how are we supposed to move on when your at the station with this guy, she said she won't go there when he's there, I'll come home right after clas is over, etc, etc.
I didn't tell her, but I don't want our new R to start off with me having to chk the clock to make sure she's home in time.
So I asked how long, she says about a week. Physical? No. She says that she met him while hanging out at the station, thought he was interesting, yadayada.
She of course blames my shortcomings, no Intamicy, always on couch, etc. I said that I understand how much that must of hurt you, but I am getting better.
I went back to her after she fell asleep, I asked about the text that talked about (going from memory, I don't have this text, I just read it) I can't right now, I'm bleeding really bad, bad blood clots and stuff. I said that talk is pretty convincing that it was PA, she said they kissed but there was no sex... I don't have much doubt that it would have gotten there, if it didn't already.
Overall I think I handled myself pretty well... I lost my temper but only threw clothes, I only started crying once and stopped myself, I put my foot down on bedroom. I told her she hurt me deeply, but I didn't whimper, asked the questions I wanted to ask so I wont ponder them during my disengagement, but I never asked why, how could you, etc... My questions where specific to how long, how far, how did u get close to him...
I pointed out that sexting is very out of character for her, and that if it's been only a week I don't see how it got to that.
That's as much as I can recall for now, my head is kinda spinning, but I wanted to document as much as possible.
You are definitely spinning. Reacting to what she's doing. Putting emotion into your interactions.
This is definitely not a week thing, it's probably been going on for months. Mine started flirting back in September 2015 and got head-over-heels in December 2015 after I almost disrespected our R with an OW. You have to believe that it was a PA, it will make the process easier for you to let go of her, and what she's done and still going to do. But that's her problem.
You need to focus on yourself.
Here are the texts I emailed me...
Ww-yeah, it was a fun project to work on & it's kind of cool to be on the DVDs.
Om - cool. Good night baby (hearts)
Ww- good night my love, sweet dreams!!
Om- morning my love hearts
Ww - good morning baby!! I was just thinking about you! You were in my dreams last night! (Hearts)
Ww- this song makes me think of you baby (link)
Ww- did u listen to it
Om - no I can't right now. Dad is over my shoulder
Om- but the fact that you think of me is cute babe.
Ww- ahhh, ok. No problem. Listen when you can. Just wanted to let you know!! Good luck with your dad today (kisses)
Next
(Referring to picture of her in only her FIre fighter shirt)
Ww- well not around anyone other than you anyway.
Om- lol
Ww- my underwear & what's underneath it is reserved for only you
Om- smiley blowing kisses
Ww- smiley blowing kisses
Om- wish I could have seen more
Ww- I know, me too
Next
Om - lol
Ww- THINK ABOUT It, I could come come downstairs & give you a quick kiss before you head back! Lol (kisses). (Remember, I work in same office)
Next
Ww- thank you again baby for everything! You are the best & I really appreciate you! Love you so much!!!
Om - welcome. Love you too baby
Om- I love your kisses
Ww- Awww!!!!
Ww- I love yours too!!!
Om - (hearts)
Ww- I never want to leave when I'm with you.
Ouch, that was tough... But no tears, I feel like I need to, but soooooo angry right now.
Oh, also, they met at fire station, she started that in early March.
No you don't contact anyone. I made the mistake of telling the world and their dog. Just gives her another excuse to leave you.
I found the same type of texts, only PG stuff really. I was lucky that the OM was not interested. Looking at those texts it does not look like it got physical, but only God will know.
Don't let it get to you, imagine that she was under the influence of a drug that distorted her ability to think straight. Then forget about them. Easier said than done though.
Here's what I want to do:
-Contact Om spouse and clue her in
-contact MIL or S best friend to call her tomorrow, I gotta believe she's going to need someone, even though she is acting like a emotionless robot
What I really want to do is post texts on her fire stations Facebook page
What I AM going to do is none of that tonight, need to get off of emotional numbness first. I'm gonna go back and re-read Sandis advice on WW, I thought mine was WAW so didn't really sink in..
Thanks DDJ.... It's really late, but I'm really glad someone is listening to me. I won't tell anyone for now, definitely not looking forward to my son finding out, I told my wife she could tell him whatever, just not to try and degrade me to him.
Yes, very good. Read about detachment too, understand it and let us know if you need help. I'm fairly new to this but the vets help are priceless.
Good luck and stay strong!
oh yes, and if you want to cry, cry, let it out, cry about the M that you're losing, your mutant wife, the trust that is broken. Just don't hold it in.
I tell my S4 that my knee is sore, that's why daddy is crying. He keeps on checking in on me as to whether my knee is feeling better. Too cute.
very good moves. stay off social media. period.
I've been at this for 6 weeks now and just learnt the other day that if you do something and you want her to hurt like you, then you're pushing her away. Don't react, don't argue, don't disrespect her either or she will never respect you again.
Grow a new set of balls; her out of the MB is a good start, but it must be her choice to want to leave it. The dynamics will change if you let her make her own decisions.
DDJ, are you saying it must be her choice to leave the MB? Should I tell her tomorrow that I'm staying in the MB, and she can if she wants? I was under the impression that it needed to be my choice and I had to be strong about it.
It is your choice what you do with your life. It is her choice what she does with hers. By throwing her out, you're just controlling her - where she sleeps. Sometimes you have to face your tiger head-on, to get over the fear.
You might need your WW in your face to really let her go. You may need her out. That is your choice though. Just give her space and you'll get the space to deal too.
Ok, after reading some of Sandis threads, I think I did the right thing, I told her I won't share the MB and she found someplace to sleep. My instinct was to wake her before S gets up to make it less awkward, but I'll let her deal with that.
My questions at this point are:
do I lay ground rules, or just disengage and only worry about myself? I know that she'll be communicating with OM since she has to work through that, and quite frankly not doing so would be my #1 ground rule.
I called our boss and Left message that I won't be in for the next two days, does that make me look weak and should I go in anyways to let her see I can handle this? Although with zero sleep tonight, I don't think I can go in today, but will if highly recommended.
Should I be there when talk with S occurs, or just let her do it and then talk with him separately?
The closest person in my life now is my mom, and I really want to turn to her, but her and my S are very close. If I fill her in, I don't know my mom would ever forgive her which would strain future R, should I find someone I'm less comfortable with or just do what I want?
We make about the same money (her about $700 month more with child support figured in) should I still try and separate finances? We make decent money, but high cost of living puts us pretty much paycheck to paycheck.
And just to clarify, I should NOT notify OM S? It seems counter productive to me, but I don't want to make any big mistakes I don't have to.. Luckily I found this website before bomb drop, so I am in a better spot than I would have been a month ago when issues started. I want to take advantage of the fact the EA is at most 2 months old, I'm a month into GAL, have already dropped 15 pounds, and the emotional roller coaster over the last month hardened me enough that I think I'll be able to disengage and stand tall and strong.
You need some vets in here, I would say that you must do whatever you can to not push her further away. And that does mean giving her space to deal with her stuff.
Don't worry about tomorrow (regarding finances and custody), just focus on today and what you can do for yourself. Leave as many people out of this as you can. You may need your mom, but don't let your WW know. I shot myself in the foot, i really did. But that was yesterday and today's a new day.
You cannot control OM S, so why worry.
Think about it like this - If it's raining outside, do you stay indoors, cry, and not go out, or do you get an umbrella, get out and live your life.
I am truly sorry that you are experiencing betrayal from your W. I think you handled yourself well, considering everything. I hope you will read the first thread on Help for the LBS who has a WW. Regarding the subject of sleeping arrangements, and considering you have just discovered that your W has been lying and cheating.......I have copied one page of things the LBH should do, or not do, immediately following his discovery.
* Immediately separate the sleeping arrangements, by putting her things out of the master bedroom. No discussions, he just takes her things out of the marital bedroom. Let her figure out where she will sleep. The H's message is he won't sleep with a cheater. The H is not to take the lesser desired room or bed. No moving down to a basement, out in the garage, on the couch, etc. He is not the unfaithful spouse. He should not act as if he is the guilty party, sneaking around to sleep on the couch and keeping it a secret from the kids. It is her problem, let her deal with it.
*Immediately stop all contacting throughout the day. If there are any decisions that need to be made about kids, school, babysitting, pickups, etc,. Tell her to get it straighten out the night before and no texting him about details later. (He is not to explain that he is going NC, etc.) He completely withdraws his part of the texting, emails, and calls unless it is urgent. He is not to use the kids as an excuse to contact her. She needs to feel this loss. He is not being available at her fingertips.
*Immediately stop all the little things he use to do for her as a loving act of service. Taking her coffee, servicing her car, cooking her breakfast, carrying in the groceries for her, washing her clothes, cleaning her messes, etc. If she asks, he should just look at her and say, "Really?" (Now, if she really cannot lift the bags of groceries, he can help, but the point is for him to withdraw volunteering those little things she took for granted).
*Immediately stop engaging in R talks, b/c when he gets sucked into one of these talks......it shows her how badly he wants to hang on to her. The message she should be getting is that he is not interested. Do not even try to initiate small talk. If she initiates small talk at the dinner table or in front of the kids, then he should respond in civil but few words. His talk should be more focused on the kids and perhaps their scheduling for the following day. He is not to reveal details of his GAL plans during any of these conversations, other than saying he will be out. If she asks any questions, he should simply give her that incredulous look that says, "Seriously?"
*Immediately withdraw his physical presence from her as much as possible. He should spend time with his kids, of course, but not alone time with her. He should not engage in usual family events, celebrations, etc. It is better the kids be disappointed for a shorter period of time than a lifetime of hurt.
*Immediately withdraw all physical affection. No hugs, kisses, pats, cuddling, snuggling, or spooning. Remember, she is having an affair. The H is not in competition with OM. He will not score points by giving her affection. Withdrawing affection will be noticed by the WW. What I have noticed from the majority of LBH'S is how it's him that has the problem withdrawing the physical touch. He cries about how hard it is and he misses her closeness. He has to stay really focused, especially when she starts to tempt you sexually. This is entrapment!
*Do not recognize her birthday, Valentines, anniversary, mother's day, or any other holiday by giving her gifts. Are you kidding me? She is cheating! She has said she isn't in love with him and doesn't see a future together, and he wants to set her on a feather pillow and treat her like a princess b/c the calendar and our commercial society has brainwashed us to buy something on those dates?
The H needs to think of what he would have done in a dating relationship where the woman was cheating with another man. Would he chase, plead, serve, constantly text, email, write love letter, send songs, have flowers delivered, and give gifts to anyone who treated him like cr@p? Would he hang out at her place every evening, hoping she might notice how great he is? Would he try to kiss and snuggle with her when she's made it obvious she is interested in another man? Marriage is not dating, but the man-woman dynamics do not change. Why do men turn from being the self confident male he was before M, into a soft- passive-clinging-fearing-doormat? This is so unattractive to all women.......single or married.
*The H should stop paying for anything that enables her to continue her A. Paying for her cell phone, buying gas for her to go "out", paying for her beautification (hair, nails, plastic surgery, spas, etc.). No financing any of her trips, whatsoever. If W has her own income, he should put the savings account in his name (minus whatever amount she may have contributed) and start his own private checking account. The message to her is that the financial security that wa once available for her access has been limited, and could be stopped altogether.
As a result of these actions by the H, the WW experiences loss of the H's availability, his presence, his intimacy, his physical affection, his meaningful conversations/interactions, his attention & closeness, his acts of service, his words of love & affirmation, quality family time, and his financial assistance/support. If he will do all of this together, and if he would do it immediately, she will experience the loss. It doesn't guarantee to end her A. In fact, b/c she feels loss of control, she will play a lot of games to get it back. She wants the security that was provided to her, but she doesn't want to give up the A to have it. That's her selfishness leading.
Men get confused and say, "But isn't this more of the same behavior from me?". IDK, but I know that the difference here is what she wanted back then.....and how she feels now. Your motives and attitudes were different back then, from what they are now. Nothing about this will be more of the same. The dynamics have changed.
The H needs to be extremely strong and confident. He cannot backslide and have sex when she comes on to him (game playing) b/c it will put him back at the start position again. Who wants to go through it again?
How long he remains in this stage of DBing is up to the H. However, he should not end these detached actions and just go back to being as he was before she dropped the bomb. He may not quickly see true evidence of positive results from the loss he has caused her. WW's are very crafty. They will play on every emotion the H holds (guilt being number one). In his desperation to see some "sign", he often falls for her little game of manipulation. Even though she has said she no longer feels anything for him, he will use all her feminine wiles to keep him in her control. Things usually get much worse before they get better, and he will need to stand taller and stronger. It may take a physical separation before she completely faces the full impact of her reality. The H should not fear a separation, nor try to talk her out of it. He should not help her with any of the process in getting set up in a new place for her.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In most cases, the WW will not be 100% truthful in answering her H's question. Even if he has texts and pictures, she will downplay the entire thing and act as if he is being ridiculous. Another common thread that runs through these experiences with WW's is how she will usually tell only part of the truth (when caught) and tell a level down from the complete story. For example if the H finds flirty texts, she may say that they were just playing and it was nothing serious. When in fact, she is engaged in an EA. The H may find sexy pictures and ask her if the A has gone physical, and she will admit to kissing..but say that's as far as they went........when actually, they have went a lot further. I have read posts about WW's spending the night in a hotel with the OM, and convincing the H no sex was involved.
Right now, your W cannot be trusted. You cannot believe what she tells you. I know you want to believe her.......and some men say, "I choose to believe my W", but that sets him up for a lot more deceit and hurt.
Affairs are highly addictive, and dealing with her will be almost like dealing with someone on heroin. Yes, you still love her, but you may have to love her from an emotional distance for a while, in order to turn things around.
I have been in the shoes of a WW. It's not pretty. I even shocked myself, but the thrill fed my courage to push for more. Long story short, I accidentally found my way to the DB forum one day back in 2007..........and some folks helped me to turn around and save my self and my M. My M was saved and we are still together.
Sandi, thank you again.. I've now read help for the LBS Ww three times in the last 6 hours... Along with some of your other articles... Your help is so appreciated, it is honestly keeping me from feeling hopeless..
How I would love someone to hold my hand during every interaction with my WW, but I guess to be real it needs to come from me, I need to consider the overall goal and apply it to what actions I take. It may be a lack of sleep, or the previous month emptying my emotional tank, or maybe it seems so unreal that it just hasn't sunk in yet. I will be spending the majority of today reading the rest of the articles, and stop by Barnes and nobles to se if they have the DR/DB books, I read the first chapters of each online yesterday.
I left the house before family woke up, mysterious right, or maybe just avoiding interaction. Anyway, WW just texted me asking where I went.... Really, she lost that priveledge for a long while.
my head is kinda spinning,
YES you are spinning.
First thing to do is to stop spinning.
You are going to make bad decisions while spinning,
you have kicked her out
of the MBR, good, now detach, and focus on YOU.
If you have not already purchased them, I would suggest just getting the Divorce Remedy. I think they are similar, with DR being the more updated.
How I would love someone to hold my hand during every interaction with my WW, but I guess to be real it needs to come from me, I need to consider the overall goal and apply it to what actions I take.
A lot of newcomer H's get bogged down in the interaction with the WW. And btw, some of us respond by saying something like, "You shouldn't have done that......yada, yada". And then some are very sweet and encouraging. Just don't take things too personally, b/c everyone has to learn and we are here to help each other.
IMHO, having a mental picture of the kind of man you want be, is your starting line. Knowing your core values, spiritual beliefs, moral standards, etc. Being true to yourself and standing for what you believe to be most important. Knowing things may get worse before they get better, and yet, not compromising with what you know to be right.
Having a plan to maintain a sense of self-management, althougevening MR may look as if it's lost. Doing what is necessary to stay mentally and physically heathy, and filling you life with good things and good people. It will feel like a great effort at time, so you have to search for means to keep yourself inspired. You have to save yourself first. We are your support group.
Fear is your enemy. Do not let it consume you and dictate your actions. You are in charge of your life. You control Coconut. And those times you feel afraid.......go on and do what you need to do, anyway. Do it afraid, but do it.
Btw, when you get Divorce Remedy, MWD suggests you start with chaper ten if your spouse is in an A, and read through to the end of the book..... and
then start back at chapter one. It may help to keep your perspective, if you read it in that order.
Dear diary...
Before I left the house I left a note saying that I acted rash in the heat of the moment, I realized it was not productive so I allowed you to remove the post from Facebook. That I would appreciate her letting me know when and what she says to son so I know what he knows. And that I would be making my own decisions on when and what I do, I would accept input when she felt it necessary, but I'm making my own decisions. Maybe I shouldn't have left the note, but I felt avoidance was cowardly and wanted to put some expectations out there.
Anyway, she just texted:
Text 1 - I read the note, I appreciate you deleting the photos, son, family, and some work colleagues are on there, not ok to post that stuff on social media, we can deal with our issues privately (want to say that 3 people in a marriage is not private, but I won't respond to this again, note was all I'm doing)
Text 2 - haven't said anything to son yet, want to talk with you to figure out what to say (my response will be something in the neighborhood of i can see it's going to be a difficult conversation, but I am still processing that it occurred, And don't really have anything to input)
Text 3 - I am still planning on going to see the counselor next week. (I have my 3rd session tomorrow, she will have first session next Tuesday. Plan was then to go to couples therapy, but I think I'm not into that now, at least for awhile)
My response - Ok, I appreciate that
Ps- I'm not afraid of straight to the point responses, I'm a man and I understand that, hopefully I'm not to numb right now to feel the 2x4...
The new LBH should not make a grand pronouncement to his WW about what he is going to do. This is the action of a newly
betrayed LBH who feels the intense urge to do something.....
anything. However, he is still in shock and should keep his mouth shut, at least until he gets more DB information under his belt.
Further on in this post, I will try to help you prepare for more DB.
Ok, after reading some of Sandis threads, I think I did the right thing, I told her I won't share the MB and she found someplace to sleep.
I just want you to understand that this is not punishment you are administering.
My instinct was to wake her before S gets up to make it less awkward, but I'll let her deal with that.
You have been the protector over her and your son ever since becoming a family. It is natural for you to experience those instincts, however, don't be too quick to act upon it right now. You made the right move by not waking her before S got up. She has to be responsible for her actions. Isn't that what the two of you have taught your son? This is only one of the ways she will have to be the one to give answers, and not expect you to cover for her.
Speaking of your son, if he is 16, he may not question why his mom is sleeping on the couch. Why not wait and see if he asks, before charging ahead with some grand explanation?
I called our boss and Left message that I won't be in for the next two days, does that make me look weak and should I go in anyways to let her see I can handle this? Although with zero sleep tonight, I don't think I can go in today, but will if highly recommended.
I don't think she will necessarily see it as weakness, if you won't discuss it with her. For some reason, LBH'S who have a WW want to "explain" too much. He needs to actually do the opposite and stay quiet. Let her wonder what you are thinking about doing. It would actually be a good thing, if she was a little nervous or concerned that you have taken off work a couple of days. Furthermore, why not plan to be gone when she gets home? And please, don't have a long talk about the relationship. If she corners you and starts talking about it........just listen and give your best poker face. Again, let her wonder how you feel or what you plan to do.
The purpose of doing what I suggested, is to change the dynamics. It is not to be mean, cold, punitive, or vindictive. Without you explaining every little thought or plan you have.......and with you not showing your usual emotions and giving her a poker face expression.......it causes her attention to turn toward you.
You see, when a woman gets emotionally involved with another man, she is ultimately taking her H for granted. I'm talking highly taming him for granted! He goes to the bottom of her interests and priorities. Her focus is all about the OM. Obviously, she's overly concerned about what she could lose.
When her H discovers she's cheating, she'll watch closely to see how he is going to react. If he starts telling her he forgives her (although she hasn't asked for his forgiveness), or he begs her not to leave and to give him another chance to prove what a wonderful H he can be, and/or she sees he's going to take the fall for her having an affair.............guess what happens? Her taking him for granted has just skyrocketed.
Am I saying the H shouldn't forgive or try to improve himself, etc.? Of course not. I am saying he shouldn't be hasty in telling her all of those things. That time will come later, much later. She has to accept responsibility for her actions. She has already lost respect for her H, and before her attraction and loving feelings are restored, there are several things that will need to take place. One, is for him to regain her interest, and perhaps, curiousity. The more she is assured that there is absolutely nothing she could ever do to stop him from wanting her.......the less a wayward wants him. A normal, loving wife wants that type of assurance....but a wayward is a different breed of woman, and her H cannot react in the same manner as he, perhaps, has done in the past or how he thinks he should do now.
Her attraction for her H is gone. She is bored with the MR. She longs, and even fantasizes, for romance and sexual passion. Although the H may not have seen any passion in her for years........the longing is there in her. Ufortunately, her passion for her H has died b/c the attraction for him is gone, and that causes her to be vulnerable for an affair. The good news is that the attraction for her H
can return.
Some men think it's on the level of playing games, however, it has been proven countless times that when a WW thinks she might lose her H.......it causes her to want to draw closer. Now, do not blow this out of proportion and think I am suggesting something wild. I am just telling you that what you will need to do will probably seem just the opposite of what you want to do. I am simply trying to lay some ground work.
One thing that may sound like playing games to some men is the old adage of "playing hard to get". A lot of guys won't even try, which is sad b/c it works with a WW about as good as any secret formula I could give you. If you are easy for her to have.....she's not interested (or quickly lose interest). She wants what she can't have, and can't get through her manipulation.
If the WW thinks the H is dumping
her.........instead of
her doing the dumping, it shocks her system and works like a jump start for attraction....................if..........
IF........the H is smart and plays his cards right. Not being hateful. Not yelling and cursing, calling her names. Not threatening. Not pouting or sulled. Not acting pitiful. Not lecturing. Not blaming or accusing. None of that type of bad behavior. He plays Mr. Cool (and not Mr. Kool-aid).
I can't cover everything in one post, so I will try to answer your questions in another one.
Umm. I'm way confused, advice on the site all revolves Round disengage, don't show them site/book, keep answers short and relationship talk a no no..
Then I start reading divorce Remedy (chapt. 10) and its share this book with your wwS, ask ? If you feel like you need to, spend more time with them....
So I gotta admit, my natural instinct is follow the book, that would be great, I need her now more than ever....
BUT, I truly see the logic in wanting her to need me before I'm with her, so life experiences is my route. I'm only 12 hrs after bomb, this is going to rough...
One question I'd really really like an answer, what is the average time of disengagement before they come out of the fog? I know it's different for everyone, but some kinda answer would at least give me a starting point... Is it shorter if the affair was shorter (Max two months) and only got to kissing (which I kinda believe because she's been bleeding for a month now (she's at dr. Now to try and figure out why)
I'm really starting to dread having to explain to S why mom is in guest bedroom.
I posted my previous question before I saw Sandis post... So I just want to add, Sandi you rock... i know your here to help, not to receive praise, but I find comfort in your ability to provide straight forward, insightful posts...
Coconut,
Sorry that you are going through this, and our suspicions proved to be right... Unfortunately it's the case that happened to many of us here on the forum.
Did you talk to OM's wife? I think that will help end the A.
CWOL,
My first inclination was to talk to the OM S and talk to the fire chief (they don't like drama), but honestly neither of those things would make me feel better and would be an act of revenge (Om spouse could be seen as compassion, but I wanted to do it when I was angry). I looked her up on Facebook last night, sad thing is they're not even two years into marriage, not much hope there, even we went 5 years before we could take our hands off of each other..
There are different views of outing the A. I am not an expert nor would I tell you which to do. I will tell you this, it may put pressure on the A, or it may make their bond greater. My issue is that with either, your S is to blame from your point of view. If it isn't this AP, it could be another. My WW has done this twice in two years, different APs. I'm my situation, it is our R and her personality that is driving these As. Some expose and it forces the AP to go away. I would look for texhubby or sandi for clear advice. Be patient for an answer and think it through for a few days before you decide.
Ralph,
I'm gonna go back and read everything from today again, but I believe Sandis di comment on it... Today's been a whirlwind, I'm up for 34 hrs straight as of now
I wish I knew how to edit posts on iPad...
But it's been a good day, I went for a walk in am along a canal, then sat in the backyard reading DR book and posts, headed out for walk in Everglades (haven't done that in a while), now I'm sitting at a tiki bar having a beer, and who knows what is next.... I'm pretty happy with today's outings seeing as my only plan was going to work.
Coconut!
I truly feel for you---this is the worst! You are in the hardest place and it will get better down the road, even if it gets worse first. It's a long and difficult road! Sandi is giving you great advice here! I hope you can trust that she was a WW and knows best. Your W is not herself right now, she is in the fog. She is also confused and hurting, even if she appears confident in what she says. She is trying to convince herself what she is doing is ok, even though her gut knows it's wrong!
DB feels counter intuitive, so you need to try and take a step back from your spinning/emotions, deep breathe (you have all the time, no rush to DO anything), and lastly trust the advice/process! We are all here because we are in the same sitch or have been there before!
My sitch is a little different because it was my H that had the A and then ended up leaving, but there are many similaraities. Well now we have been back together for over a year, so I am seeing this from the other side. I read and read, and while I accepted the DB process, I struggled to apply it to my every day life because it felt so counter intuitive! It's hard to apply! Now that H is completely out of the fog--takes full responsibility, is remorseful, and has made genuine changes--we have talked about what happened, and I will tell you without a doubt, when I applied the "DB rules," it worked, but when I blew it (often), I pushed him further away! I didn't know that back then because I was hurt and scared.
So I want to highlight what worked and what didn't because he has told me:
When I got angry, upset, or tried to reprimand him for his behavior, he further justified what he was doing by being able to point a finger at me, "she is making me unhappy!"
When I cried/begged, yes, he felt terribly guilty and knew it was wrong, but that did NOT make him want to come back to me, quite the opposite! In fact, it made him feel worse about himself, so what did he do? He ran to the one person that told him how wonderful he was. OW!
When I ignored him (because I wanted to punish him and show him I was moving on), he felt incredibly frustrated with me. He felt all the more hopeless that we could ever reconcile or that I could ever forgive him.
He spoke in absolute positives! "I'm done." "I told you I want a D." "I have been unhappy for a long time." "I have always put your needs before mine." "I can't stay with you for the kids." ... Why was he sounding so assured and confident!?! Because he was trying to convince himself! He has admitted now, he always had this sick feeling it was wrong and felt terrible about himself. He second guessed himself EVERY day!
So what were the things that started to draw him back? Well there were many, but some of them actually had nothing to do with me. He had a lot to figure out on his own timeline..... But, when I was detached, GAL, cordial about kids/logistics, but overall losing interest in him and when he saw that I WOULD BE JUST FINE without him, well that is when he second guessed himself the most!!!
So take it one day at a time. Don't make any decisions. Take a giant step back and focus on number one. That's YOU!!!
-Blu
do I lay ground rules, or just disengage and only worry about myself? I know that she'll be communicating with OM since she has to work through that, and quite frankly not doing so would be my #1 ground rule.
Instead of calling it ground rules, (b/c she'll think of it as Coconut's Rules and Coconut Controlling), you need to have your personal boundaries. You can find a link in Cadet's homework.
Again, don't start drawing your gun before you understand how it works. A personal boundary is like having an invisible line around yourself. You determine what crosses that line and what doesn't. As long as the line is respected, everything is fine. However, if the line is violated, what will you do?
The closest person in my life now is my mom, and I really want to turn to her, but her and my S are very close. If I fill her in, I don't know my mom would ever forgive her which would strain future R, should I find someone I'm less comfortable with or just do what I want?
If it should come to a separation, you might choose to share more with your mom. As you said, your W could possibly see it as a stumbling block in the road back home. As a mother of adult children, I would not want to be completely in the dark about my kids M's breaking up, but neither would I need all the gory details.
Then I start reading divorce Remedy (chapt. 10) and its share this book with your wwS, ask ? If you feel like you need to, spend more time with them....
I don't have my book with me at the moment, so I can't check. Many times, people do not take in account that she is talking about a spouse who wants to save the MR. She has quite a bit to those who are healing from infidelity. However, she is very blunt about anyone M to an unfaithful S that is unwilling to end the affair. She doesn't say a lot about a spouse who is
unwilling to cooperate in saving the M. Her overall message is that D is not the remedy for problems in a MR.
The main thing is to realize she does not separate the WW from the WAW, nor use the term "wayward", as best that I remember. With all due respect to her, I personally believe there is significant difference in the two, but that is JMHO. If I had not lived through it and then study about it for the past nine years.......I may not have distinquished the difference, either. I don't say it arrogantly, nor as a putdown. I am just saying you will not find it in the DR book. Still, there is very much to glean from the book.
Just remember a lot is addressed in general terms, and a lot is to couples who don't want to divorce, and a lot is addressed to a wide-span group of issues.
One question I'd really really like an answer, what is the average time of disengagement before they come out of the fog? I know it's different for everyone, but some kinda answer would at least give me a starting point... Is it shorter if the affair was shorter (Max two months) and only got to kissing (which I kinda believe because she's been bleeding for a month now (she's at dr. Now to try and figure out why)
Seriously?!?
First of all, forget about placing a time on disengagement. Btw, this sounds very weak to these old former wayward ears. Okay......so two years! Feel better?
Secondly, you are focusing on the physical.....and not wanting to believe it went past kissing. You don't get it. Why do you think they divide affairs into separate categories of IA (Imaginary Affair), EA, and PA? For a woman, an emotional affair can be just as strong and addictive as a PA.
Maybe you should have been warned that 100% of the board does not agree 100% of the time. Some LBH's have exposed the W's affair and was successful in ending it. Others were not so successful. Some were successful in ending the A....and it ended the M, as well. The problem in the M started within your W's heart before there was ever an A, and if the A ends today......you would see that the problem still existed in her heart. Everyone can find pros & cons about the subject of exposing.
Coconut, I don't want you confused about what to do and not do. You are cramming a lot of information in a short time, and that's good, however, take time to rest your brain.
I hope you get a good night's sleep.
I tried Sandy, but another sleepless night, coming up on 48 hrs without any, I'm so glad I took the two days off and then have the weekend when she'll be out of town, that may help.
So I was doing really well today, mixed reading and exercise all day. Then, I saw a thread about trusting WW after reconciliation... I always trusted my wife 100% until a month ago, and turned out my fears were justified. Anyway, since I'm so far from piecing, I hadn't really put a lot of thought into rebuilding trust and started thinking about her scenario. She has A with another volunteer firefighter, says she broke it off (more on that later), but will be seeing him around the station until one quits. The worst part is that when they both get a call, they head to the station at the same time, the calls can last anywhere from 30 min to 6 hours, and I would have no idea when she "should" be home. It could easily be a scenario where they get to the station, they don't go to the scene, released in 30 mins then go spend the next hour or two together then head home, I would have no way of knowing. I don't know if I could trust her in that situation.
So anyway, thinking about it made me upset, so I went and played basketball with son until WW left for class. Then wife doesn't come straight home after class, got home about an 1 1/2 later (says she was practing for a practical exam coming up) and I couldn't help myself, I started telling her that I don't know if I can handle that and I may need D if she stays a FF, and she says that she's going to be really resentful if she has to quit. I told her I can't make her quite but not doing so may make it impossible for me to stay.
As for the A, she says she called him and told him it has to end, that he understood and that they would return to a professional R. I know it's not that easy to break up with someone, she acts like she is done with it, but there are no words or looks of sadness so I know that that process isn't done.
The waywardness runs real deep coconut, look out for selfish, stubborness and rebelious behaviour.
See if anything triggers her to push away - right now though, you still need to distance yourself.
rebuilding trust is not for now...don't even worry yourself over it. you will know in your soul when she is ready to be trusted...she is nowhere near that yet.
this is all very hard, you are doing well. if you need to help find something to get you to sleep I would encourage that. you need to right your ship before you can start moving forward...ok.
g
Have you tried any OTC products that make you sleepy? Dramamine causes drowsiness.
Has your WW said she wanted to work on the MR, or did just say she would end the A?
As addictive as affairs are, the WW working with her AP may prove to be too challenging.
She has broken your trust. She has to earn back what she broke, and can't expect you to "just trust her". When a spouse has been in an A, and if that spouse is serious about healing the M, then they should be more than willing to follow a transparency plan the faithful spouse presents.
If she has nothing to hide, then you should be free to look at her phone spasmodically, without warning her. You should be able to see all her email. This helps the wayward spouse to walk the line and helps the faithful spouse by seeing no inappropriate texts.
There are other ways to show an accountability, but I won't get into all of that right now.
Unfortunately, she and OM have the perfect cover. They work together, seem to spend a great deal of time in communication, and if you put some type of tracking device in her vehicle, she will claim it's related to work.
The first step in ending an affair is no contact whatsoever. This is absolutely necessary in order to break the addictive pull of the affair. I rather doubt your W is going to leave her job, and I don't if a transfer would be available..........I just know them working together is not a good situation. Breaking off an affair (verbally), and saying they will spring back into professional mode........is unlikely.
Did you see any text of telling OM it was over, or did she just tell you she told him? Which, neither way really means a thing, b/c the accountability will give a more accredited record.
You are faced with making some very difficult decisions. Have you been thinking about your core values, personal boundary line, and the stand you will take? Just let me say this, and please don't think I am pushing you to do anything, I am simply giving you information. Your W is the unfaithful spouse (maybe emotional affair, maybe more). The burden to fix this mess should be on her shoulders. She should be willing to do whatever you need to save this M. She should be the one pleading with you for another chance. She should be the one who is crying over the destruction she has caused. She should be the one pursuing you. If you twist it around where you are doing any of these things that she should do...........you will lose any chance of her wanting to work on the M.
It must feel as if all of that ^^^^ goes against every fiber of your being. It's tough. It's tough love.
Where is she going this weekend?
Take things slowly this weekend. Digest the information you receive. Take care of you.
Sandi2,
Sorry I'm not trying to hijack thread but had a quick question about what you wrote above.
When wife and I reconciled a few years ago I felt like I was doing way more of the work even though she was having a an affair a few months before B day. I had put a lot of the blame on myself for who I was before it led to that. Now here we are again and I'm feeling now that something may be going on for a second time less than 3 years later.
Did I put too much work into reconciling things and not let her "own" what she had done?
I think that she is the one that should be doing the reconciliation. That's the only way that it can work. The LBS lets go of that control and lets them lead.
Wow Coco, I just got caught up on all of this. Really sorry to hear it.
My take, she is using this guy to get what she was missing from you. You have to man up and show her that you are the best guy to get what she needs from. The good news is you are ahead of where most of us are.
Have you tried any OTC products that make you sleepy? Dramamine causes drowsiness.
No, but I'll get some today
Has your WW said she wanted to work on the MR, or did just say she would end the A?
Yes, she said she wanted to work on MR over and over, I think she can't bare the thought of taking me out of my sons life, and losing my family would crush her, they are all very close.
As addictive as affairs are, the WW working with her AP may prove to be too challenging.
Do I keep pushing her to quite, or does she need to do it on her own? I laid out my all my concerns last night.
If she has nothing to hide, then you should be free to look at her phone spasmodically, without warning her. You should be able to see all her email. This helps the wayward spouse to walk the line and helps the faithful spouse by seeing no inappropriate texts.
There are other ways to show an accountability, but I won't get into all of that right now.
I'll tell her today that we need to do this before she leaves on trip.
Did you see any text of telling OM it was over, or did she just tell you she told him?
She told me it was by phone, she said there was no texting, I didn't check.
You are faced with making some very difficult decisions. Have you been thinking about your core values, personal boundary line, and the stand you will take?
No, yesterday I was focused on learning about detachment and your other advice.
Just let me say this, and please don't think I am pushing you to do anything, I am simply giving you information. Your W is the unfaithful spouse (maybe emotional affair, maybe more). The burden to fix this mess should be on her shoulders. She should be willing to do whatever you need to save this M. She should be the one pleading with you for another chance. She should be the one who is crying over the destruction she has caused. She should be the one pursuing you. If you twist it around where you are doing any of these things that she should do...........you will lose any chance of her wanting to work on the M.
She's not there, I believe she's upset, but I still haven't gotten even an apology, I gotta detach.
Where is she going this weekend?
To her BFFs house for BFFs bday, about 4 hrs away, I have no concerns about OM, and I'm hoping BFF can help talk sense into her.
Take things slowly this weekend. Digest the information you receive. Take care of you.
Earlier in the thread someone said be thankful you gave me the time of day, at this point I feel like I owe you for about 5 therapy sessions, thank you for helping soooo much.
I thought of something I might do soon, have a friend come pick me up to go somewhere, that way when she gets home she'll think I am there (cause truck in driveway), and hopefully it will shock her more when I'm not..
Pulled from DDJ's thread. I admittedly have not read any of yours. But I wouldnt do something "to shock her".
Just worry about living your life. Not about trying to get a reaction from your wife.
Originally Posted By: Coconut
I thought of something I might do soon, have a friend come pick me up to go somewhere, that way when she gets home she'll think I am there (cause truck in driveway), and hopefully it will shock her more when I'm not..
Pulled from DDJ's thread. I admittedly have not read any of yours. But I wouldnt do something "to shock her".
Just worry about living your life. Not about trying to get a reaction from your wife.
I agree with Darkness, this is a bad idea.
Listen, you need to slow down a little. I looked back at the DR book, (b/c you were confused about something it said being contrary to the boad's advice) there it was on the second page of where you started reading: "The following guidelines are written for couples where
both spouses want to make the marriage work". If it makes you feel any better, you aren't the only one who misses these little, but very important statements. (Now someone will probably find something to throw back at me).
Earlier in the thread someone said be thankful you gave me the time of day, at this point I feel like I owe you for about 5 therapy sessions, thank you for helping soooo much.
Well, thank you, I am happy to help anyway I can. I think too much is being said about me.
I don't want anyone thinking I am trying to be some kind of DB board celebrity. MWD is the celebrity. I am no more important or special than anyone else on the board........I've just been around a long time.......and I was a wayward wife.
Do I keep pushing her to quite, or does she need to do it on her own? I laid out my all my concerns last night.
How do YOU feel about it? You said you expressed your concerns last night. What did she say? If she truly doesn't want to tear the family apart, why would she even take such a risk by working with her AP? When you ask if you should keep pushing her.......I have to tell you that that word "push" bothers me. The rebellious nature of a WW would not respond well to pushing.
Let me try to say it another way. When a man knows what he cannot and will not tolerate in his M, he needs to take a firm stand about it. Not nag or plead, just stand on his values. Okay, you expressed your concerns to her. Did she see a man who was solid in what he said, or did she see a man who was trying to reason with her? You really can't reason with a WW.
The betrayed spouse is in the position to tell the unfaithful spouse the prerequisite to the continuous MR. The unfaithful spouse hears the stipulations presented, and then is free to make a choice to comply or refuse. There are no compromises. There are no negotiations. If she really wants to save this M, she will show respect for her H and her M by ending all contact with the AP. There is no going from an A to a professional R. That is a compromise to the integrity of the M. She essentially has to decide which is more important in her life.
She will not
want to stop working there, but it is not about "want" in this situation......it is about willingness.
I hope I'm wrong, but I expect her to think she can play you. She'll try to make you think she is over the OM, and working with him is no big deal. She will create ways to be more secretive and take the A deeper underground. (And don't share this concern with her).
Use this weekend wisely. Don't pursue her while she's gone.
You have a lot to learn. Don't do something without fully understanding what it is you are doing! Make sense?
Coconut,
See your MD about some anti-depressants. Lexapro made a big difference for me. Now I feel rested in the morning and able to tackle life.
Do I keep pushing her to quite, or does she need to do it on her own? I laid out my all my concerns last night.
How do YOU feel about it? You said you expressed your concerns last night. What did she say? If she truly doesn't want to tear the family apart, why would she even take such a risk by working with her AP? When you ask if you should keep pushing her.......I have to tell you that that word "push" bothers me. The rebellious nature of a WW would not respond well to pushing.
I feel like I will stress the F out every time she gets a call. I told her that I don't know if I can move forward if she is still in contact with the OM, no matter how infrequent it is. At this point, I'm hoping she gets to where she wants to rebuild the MR and makes the decision to leave the fire academy... Right now she's just angry and resentful.
Let me try to say it another way. When a man knows what he cannot and will not tolerate in his M, he needs to take a firm stand about it. Not nag or plead, just stand on his values. Okay, you expressed your concerns to her. Did she see a man who was solid in what he said, or did she see a man who was trying to reason with her? You really can't reason with a WW.
Is this a good time to do that, she's definitely not feeling rebuilding? Like I said, she is yet to even say I'm sorry, fake or real.
The betrayed spouse is in the position to tell the unfaithful spouse the prerequisite to the continuous MR. The unfaithful spouse hears the stipulations presented, and then is free to make a choice to comply or refuse. There are no compromises. There are no negotiations. If she really wants to save this M, she will show respect for her H and her M by ending all contact with the AP. There is no going from an A to a professional R. That is a compromise to the integrity of the M. She essentially has to decide which is more important in her life.
See above, she's still in the cloud.
She will not
want to stop working there, but it is not about "want" in this situation......it is about willingness.
I hope I'm wrong, but I expect her to think she can play you. She'll try to make you think she is over the OM, and working with him is no big deal. She will create ways to be more secretive and take the A deeper underground. (And don't share this concern with her).
I won't share, and I won't be played... But I'm just not sure when to put my foot down, while in the fog or after, right now I'm the enemy... Sometimes I feel like I just need to move out to make her life much more difficult, but am concerned that there will be no going back.
Use this weekend wisely. Don't pursue her while she's gone.
Oops... See below
You have a lot to learn. Don't do something without fully understanding what it is you are doing! Make sense?
Yes.. I feel like I need cliff notes. I'm really trying to slow down, but when we talk, it's like she is my previous wife, minus the emotions.
[/quote]
I forgot who said to see me about depression melds, but good point, I was prescribed something two years ago, but stopped taking them after a week or two, because I came out of highly emotional state and thought I was better, I wasn't. I will go see them again.
Ok, so today wasn't so hot. Wife came home as I was leaving, in real short conversation I explained to wife that in order to regain trust I need to know what's going on, and asked for her passwords for message apps and social media. When I got home, she hadn't written them down so I called, she said she felt like she was being smothered and it would be subserviant of her to give them and said she needed to think about it. I reminded her that she has all my passwords and that it was to help me regain trust.. She said she would show me everything, but needed to think about if she wants to live like that. I still don't have PW's.
I talked to my cousin in confidentiality about everything going on, he was previous WH who pieced together and M better than ever, I asked wife by text if she would talk to him, she was upset I told him everything, said all family will be talking about it, and said she'd consider talk. She later text and said she would, but not because she wanted to, but because I wanted her to. I didn't respond to text.
She later text that she made it to BFF and I responded, it was a long drive, glad you made it safe...
Talking to my cuz was good, he's the only one that knows now and it really helped me to have someone to talk to.
What part of don't push did you not understand?
A betrayed H should tell his WW his conditions for her staying with him. He should not "remind" her of a thing. That is pushing! You pursued and pushed, and then you opened your mouth again to plead with her to talk to your friend! Cut it out!
Is this a good time to do that, she's definitely not feeling rebuilding? Like I said, she is yet to even say I'm sorry, fake or real.
Of course she isn't
feeling it.........she is in an A! What did you expect? Like I said, it isn't about her
feelings, it's about her
willingness to do whatever it takes to save her M. She did not tell you she was sorry....b/c she
isn't sorry. She
feels in love with this OM, and the addiction of the A is going to trump how she
feels toward you and the M. You are looking at her feelings instead of her willingness...or lack thereof.
The time for you to say what your conditions are was when you had the talk last night, (or whenever it was). I also said you needed to understand more about what to do before taking action.......but you didn't listen, and you made matters a little worse. Instead of her seeing a strong, confident man who will not tolerate infidelity.........she saw a disparate one. So, can you please keep your mouth zipped (for your own sake) and not talk and not push any more tonight?
I won't share, and I won't be played... But I'm just not sure when to put my foot down, while in the fog or after, right now I'm the enemy... Sometimes I feel like I just need to move out to make her life much more difficult, but am concerned that there will be no going back.
She is in the affair NOW! This is when you "put your foot down". You can wait around 6 months, a year, maybe two, and see if the A ends and she's out of the fog..........but then it's too little too late to be telling her what you will not tolerate in the m.
Ok, so today wasn't so hot. Wife came home as I was leaving, in real short conversation I explained to wife that in order to regain trust I need to know what's going on, and asked for her passwords for message apps and social media. When I got home, she hadn't written them down so I called, she said she felt like she was being smothered and it would be subserviant of her to give them and said she needed to think about it. I reminded her that she has all my passwords and that it was to help me regain trust.. She said she would show me everything, but needed to think about if she wants to live like that. I still don't have PW's.
Why are you doing this before she even hears about a transparency plan and agrees to no contact with OM, or agree to stop working with him. You are not approaching her at the right time nor in the right way. You have not learned are the details yet. Stop jumping in the deep end before you learn to swim.
Checked cell phone records, and she called OM on her way up to her BFF. She is obviously not done wwith the A, and I won't live in that Limbo.
I have thought about it, and I am ready to create some boundaries and enforce the consequences. Here is what I'm thinking:
"I don't mean for this to sound like a threat, but I will not remain in a marriage with a spouse who has any contact with a person she has had an affair with, it is too upsetting to me. Either you withdraw from the fire academy and end all communication with the affair partner, or I need to end this marriage. It is not what I want to do, but I feel this is an unhealthy situation for me. I need to know by Sunday night if this is something you are willing to do."
She is out of town now, and will not return until Sunday morning. I don't know if I will see her before I head out to take Mom out to Mother's Day brunch, and she will be going to her moms before I get back.
I'm wondering if I could present this message by email or phone tonight, or if I should wait to see her Sunday night? I think it may help sway her to choose to save M if she is making that decision on Mother's Day while with her mother and son (family).
She will need to withdraw from academy before her Monday night class for me not to end marriage, so I thought it might be better for her to take time to think about it. Is that a bad thought?
I haven't been able to find anything on a transparency plan, so I don't know if that should be presented at the same time.
Also, my plan would be to move out this week and stay with mom until I figure out how to proceed with separation, I'm worried if I stay in the house I would be enabling her, if I move out I don't believe she would be able to continue in the academy and take care of house and son.
"I don't mean for this to sound like a threat, but I will not remain in a marriage with a spouse who has any contact with a person she has had an affair with, it is too upsetting to me. Either you immediately withdraw from the fire academy and end all communication with the affair partner, or I will need to move out this week and end this marriage. It is not what I want to do, but I feel this is an unhealthy situation for me. I need to know by Sunday night if this is something you are willing to do."
.
I made some tweaks to make sure she knows I mean immediately withdraw.
Are you prepared to end the M Monday morning and file for D? Are you ready to cut off all contact with her and end everything Monday morning? This is the after the last resort technique. If you make these statements, be prepared to act. I was thinking of this message, but even after 5 months of this mess, I'm not sure I want to send it and I isn't want me W back the way she is, nor do I want her to end her A based on me pushing and pushing her. I may change my mind in the very near future though.
This part sounds like wishful thinking:
Also, my plan would be to move out this week and stay with mom until I figure out how to proceed with separation, I'm worried if I stay in the house I would be enabling her, if I move out I don't believe she would be able to continue in the academy and take care of house and son.
Unless her son has special needs, he shouldn't need much taking care of at 16.
"I don't mean for this to sound like a threat, but I will not remain in a marriage with a spouse who has any contact with a person she has had an affair with, it is too upsetting to me. Either you immediately withdraw from the fire academy and end all communication with the affair partner, or I will need to move out this week and end this marriage. It is not what I want to do, but I feel this is an unhealthy situation for me. I need to know by Sunday night if this is something you are willing to do."
.
I made some tweaks to make sure she knows I mean immediately withdraw.
So you've settled on divorce then?
Coconut, please just hold up. You are trying to fix things without the manual for these new tools. Can you just get through this weekend without pressing her to give you passwords, etc.? Please, you are charging into this completely unprepared. You need more information and she needs some time to think about what she's doing. Please do not give her your proposed boundary. It sounds a lot like an ultimatum. So wait and let's work on it together, okay?
Coconut,
For the love of God, you really need to shut the f*ck up and LISTEN. You've gone off the rails now. Stop whatever pie-in-the-sky tactics you're pulling out of your ass and use your ears. Because if you don't, I can guarantee that you'll be a divorced man. Is that want you truly want? What is it you genuinely desire? I'm not being a smart ass here, but asking you some serious questions here.
-what kind of man do you want to see reflected back at you when looking at the mirror
-what are your core boundaries (I'm not seeing any at all)
-what does validation look like to you?
-what are some of your issues, behaviors and patterns that you KNOW needs to be changed that contributed to the M breakdown
Take the focus off on W and put it where it squarely belongs...on YOU.
Stop trying to control W through shaming, patronizing comments, self-righteousness and indignation. Check your pride at the door and really re-read DR books along with Sandi's Rules for you've broken several of them repeatedly.
The definition of insanity is to keep on doing the same thing over and OVER expecting different results. Stop! For real.
I ought to slap you by the upside all the way to China for you're not getting DBing at all. You're a wild child running around in circles without your nappies.
Also, why would you leave the mbr or house. Even if you decide to initiate a D, why would you leave. Do not force her to leave. That is her choice.
Also, wonka and sandi are the people you need to be listening to the most in this thread! Please, listen listen listen
How do YOU feel about it? You said you expressed your concerns last night. What did she say? If she truly doesn't want to tear the family apart, why would she even take such a risk by working with her AP? When you ask if you should keep pushing her.......I have to tell you that that word "push" bothers me. The rebellious nature of a WW would not respond well to pushing.
Let me try to say it another way. When a man knows what he cannot and will not tolerate in his M, he needs to take a firm stand about it. Not nag or plead, just stand on his values. Okay, you expressed your concerns to her. Did she see a man who was solid in what he said, or did she see a man who was trying to reason with her? You really can't reason with a WW.
She saw a man trying to reason with her, but I'm not willing to accept it... What do I do, sit ideally by and stress about the countless hours a week she's at the fire station? I am absolutely not willing to work on the marriage if she's not willing to stop volunteer work (no pay, kind like a hobby)... Yes, if she won't quit For our M, I won't want her back.
Sons capable of taking care of himself, but he does ZERO choresThe house is a lot of work, with the 1/2 acre lawn, pool, dishes, finances, grocery shopping, cooking, dogs... All of which I do... If I drop doing all of that, she won't be able to keep going in fire school... For now I'm going to my nieces play, I'll be back in 5 hours. If better suggestions are available on how to get her to quit, I could use it.. There's been no contact with WW
Here's what went through my head, if I leave:
1 she will be financially strapped (I would make sure mort, elect, water get paid)
2. The only family support here is my family
3. She won't have enough time to cook for S before class, she won't have money for fdelivery
4. If all of this happens at once, she will feel a sense of loss.
And to answer someone's ? Why I would move, so my step son could stay, she wouldn't leave him.
Here's what went through my head, if I leave:
1 she will be financially strapped (I would make sure mort, elect, water get paid)
2. The only family support here is my family
3. She won't have enough time to cook for S before class, she won't have money for fdelivery
4. If all of this happens at once, she will feel a sense of loss.
And to answer someone's ? Why I would move, so my step son could stay, she wouldn't leave him.
But how does leaving benefit YOU?
This is 100% about her.
Coconut,
Stop, stop...STOP. Full on stop talking to W! Step away and no one gets hurt. Say and do nothing for 1 week. Your homework is to read all of Cadet's homework links and visit other threads in the Newcomers forum. I do not see you posting in other threads at all. You have much...MUCH to learn here. You are now at the first grade math level and we see you running off trying to do Calculus when you haven't yet to master the basics at all.
I am wincing every time I see you post because it's like watching a train wreck at a warp speed.
Stop. Breathe. Listen to us here.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2675295#Post2675295