We've been married more than 10 years. Two younger kids. Marriage hasn't been good for most of it. We are emotionally distant. Wife has been unsure for years, but has admittedly stayed because of the kids. Now she wants to separate, but is unsure about divorce. She says she wants to separate to see if it will help re-start things.
In the early years I had a tough time connecting with her due to not knowing how and not listening to her needs and/or stonewalling her when she attempted to connect. She states she is now very lonely and hurt from my years of not being there for her emotionally. After years of going along like this I started to wake up. When I finally understood what she needed and figured out how I should do it, it was too late. Her walls were up by then and I can't penetrate them. Her heart is shut off to me.
We have talked a bit about how, logistically speaking, a separateion would work and we are also trying to figure out if we should try counseling. We tried counseling years ago and it was not a good experience. (I can get into that later if needed.)
I'm trying to figure out how to follow the DB and DR method when at the same time I feel like we need to emotionally connnect.
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH. Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
A bit more about us and more questions.
For the recent past several months I have put forth much more effort in several areas. She has pretty much run things as far as the kids and house go. I've done some half a$$ efforts in the past, but now have committed to removing some of the load. She hasn't mentioned she's noticed, but there is no way she couldn't have.
I've also held back compliments and verbal affection since she told me a long time ago she doesn't want that and somehow it makes it worse.(???) Again, in the recent several months I have not held back. When she looks nice I come right out and tell her - I compliment her once a day at a minimum. She has noticed this and told me she has, although she says it is meaningless (but I know that I can't beleive anything she says at this stage.)
The counseling we did several years ago didn't go so well. My W felt criticized. I can't remember all the specifics, but I know the counselor seemed kinda kooky and didn't hide from taking sides on issues.
Criticism is something that comes up frequently between us. W feels I am very critical and that I don't like her. She will bring it up well after the fact and it is hard for me to see it or recall it exactly how she does. I'm hyper aware now and monitoring this very closely.
My question is this - I know everyone says the DB and DR methods are often counter-intuitive, but how do things like Sandi's rule #15 (don't initiate conversation and be scarce if spouse initiates) help bring two people closer? This in fact has been how we've been operating for a long time and has led to us not being close. Also, I's struggling with #8 (don't buy gifts). I bought her flowers for the first time in a long time a few weeks ago (not roses, just a Springtime bunch) and she brightened up and started taking pictures of them. I'm not going to buy her jewelry or even shower her in gifts, but an occassional card or flowers feels like it might help. Finally, Sandi's rule #9 (don't schedule dates) is something W and I talked about if we are going to separate. We both feel we would need this in order to spend time alone and figure this out.
I'm open to everyone's feedback and advice.
I'm relatively new to all of this DB stuff, so don't take anything I say as gospel. I'll be brief...
It sounds as if your wife is not in an affair (EA or PA). I believe that most people in this forum have spouses that are in the midst of an affair. I think the affair situations require a little different approach than the approaches used for a spouse who's been neglected but has not had an affair. My concern is that some of the techniques discussed in this forum may be a little heavy-handed for your situation.
I have a DB coach and he's emphasized that GAL activities (things you're truly enthusiastic about) seem to have very good results.
Sorry you are here tjcran,
This has been building in your W for a long time so its not going to be fixed overnight. Sounds like you have a lot of issues to work on but that's ok. We all do. So.......Start fixing those today. Take a good long look at yourself and figure out what needs to change. No bandaids here. We are talking about permanent life changes going forward. Its time for you to become a new man. Find out how to be the man that only a fool would leave. A lot of us do have WW and it sounds like you have a WAW so I think you don't want to be as heavy handed. Maybe you can be a LITTLE softer on the rules. But do know that even if you separate, if you truly implement 180's and GAL, she WILL notice. I kicked my WW out of the house after I discovered the A and even though the A was still going on (and I didn't know it), I've now learned that she DID notice all the changes I was making. She noticed them because they were genuine. No matter what my faults in the past, it didn't justify her having an A but I did have lots of things that needed to change. So I found out what those were and started making changes. Real, meaningful changes. That's what you have to do. You W will notice if you do this and follow all the rules. Make her see what she will be missing if she walks out on you .
I was also guilty of being critical, non communicative and emotionally detached. But when I kicked my W out, I went dark. Only communicated when it was in regards to the kids. But it has worked and is still working. I know it all sounds backwards but I do believe this process and I am still DB'ing even now that my W and I are piecing our M back together. You can do this. Start now!
Sorry that you find yourself here. But you will find a great deal of support.
I agree with LIM, some of these tactics may seem a little heavy if you have a WAW. But changes that you make, real changes will help. I think it takes time, obviously they are reluctant to believe these changes to start off, that's why they need to become genuine.
Start to think of what changes you can make, what will make you the kind of man she would be a fool to leave?
Read other people's threads too to gain some insight. There's some bets on here that give fantastic advise. Good luck and keep posting
The good and the bad. First the bad.
I'm hurting right now. The place I'm sure many of you have been or are right now. The place where your legs shake, you feel nauseous, you could puke at any minute, your chest is tight, your heart aches, a feeling of desperation overcomes you and you feel a complete loss of control. But, you've got to keep a smile on your face and not let your W or kids know that you are about to fall apart.
Why do I feel this way? The separation is about to happen - found an apartment and will move next week. Also, I'm doing what I can to save our marriage. I'm studying everything I can get my hands on as far as emotional connection and relationship repair. I'm putting my best foot forward. My W is doing nothing outward. I'm sure she has a lot on her mind, but is she figuring out ways to save our relationship or work on herself? Not that I can see. This has been her M.O. throughout. I'm the one to blame and I'm the one to find a solution. Her solution for the last 8 years is that we need to split. It is always either or. It is hard to see someone complain about a problem and just sit back expecting the problem to go away. She wants a strong emotional connection, yet admits she has put up impenetrable walls and is completely unreceptive to my attempts to connect.
The good - I have a sliver of hope. I display a positive attitude. I realize I need to be patient. I know I can only control myself. I have been working on GAL for a couple years now and have put forth even more effort recently. I'm improving myself.
I feel your pain tjcran. It hurts like nothing else. You'll have to find your way through. No way around it.
I see that you are very focused on your MR right now. Although that seems like what you should be doing, it will probably work against you. You need to detach. Let go. Turn your sights inward and focus on YOU. This is HARD. But you must find a way to do this. I believe it is the most fundamental thing you must master if you are to save your M. When you detach and work to fix your issues, she will notice. She will begin to see what she will be missing if she decides to continue down this path. There is no guarantee that she will in turn start working on her issues but you've got to be prepared to take care of yourself whether she is in your life or not.
I am a firm believer in this process. I see it working in my life. I kept up with it and kept posting here even when I had NO hope for my M. But then I started to see cracks in her armor. Slowly but surely, her walls began to crumble around her. And when they did, who was standing there for her to see? A new an improved LiM. The LiM she fell in love with and the LiM that she wants to be with. So much so, that my W is now willing to say and DO the things necessary to repair the damage she has caused. She's willing to do that because she see's that I've been working on myself this entire time.
Focus on you right now. That's what you've got to do.
Wow LiM,
Thanks for that. This is a lonely place to be and knowing others are going through it or have gone through it and support you is huge.
Had my first heave cry today. I'm sure there's more to come.
I am focused on improving myself. I see where I was unavailable to my W when she needed a connection and some empathy. I am working on my skills connecting and being emotionally available. I am finding ways to connect with friends and become more socially active. I've always been physically active and healthy and that won't drop off.
tjcran,
Nothing wrong with a good cry. I probably cried every single day for the first two months. But do it by yourself. Dont let her see that. The only thing she should see is a strong, confident man. You can show her your hurt later. But not right now.
I'm really glad you are able to see where you have been deficient in your life. Its key to moving forward. It too was emotionally absent and far too focused on my own needs for a long time. The emotional needs of my W and family came second and that's not ok. Reconnecting with others and becoming more social is an EXCELLENT way to show your W that you are not that same person anymore even though you are not directing that attention towards her. This is a perfect example of how you can be detached and yet still be engaged in behaviors that will attract her and bring her back to you.
You can do this! Get to work and come back and report your progress often.
My question is this - I know everyone says the DB and DR methods are often counter-intuitive, but how do things like Sandi's rule #15 (don't initiate conversation and be scarce if spouse initiates) help bring two people closer? This in fact has been how we've been operating for a long time and has led to us not being close. Also, I's struggling with #8 (don't buy gifts). I bought her flowers for the first time in a long time a few weeks ago (not roses, just a Springtime bunch) and she brightened up and started taking pictures of them. I'm not going to buy her jewelry or even shower her in gifts, but an occassional card or flowers feels like it might help. Finally, Sandi's rule #9 (don't schedule dates) is something W and I talked about if we are going to separate. We both feel we would need this in order to spend time alone and figure this out.
If I read correctly, the two of you will be physically separating, right? Are you aware that the two of you also have separate viewpoints about this separation? I can already tell that you are geared up and ready to start being the H you should have been all the time. You want this separation period to be a time of courting and romancing your W and resolving the issues. That would be fine if she was on the same page. However, I seriously doubt that she is. In most cases, the W does not want the H to leave so that he can court her and for them to work things out. She doesn't want to get closer.......she wants more space. In other words, she wants freedom.
By the time a person finds themself here on the DB board, they feel lost and confused, not knowing the first thing to do. Most have received the "speech" from the spouse about not feeling in love. The 37 rules are tips for newcomers, to help them get started in the right direction. You don't understand them b/c you want all the advice in how to woo your W and become a loving couple again. You want to pursue your W and convince her that the M can work. The problem is that what you probably have in mind will not work.
Have the two of you ever separated in the past?
Back to your questions about these specific rules, these rules are to help you in preventing pursuing tactics. When the LBH always initiates contact.........she feels pressured. If he always start conversation, or tries to keep the conversation going longer......she feels smothered. If he buys gifts and/or flowers, she feels pressured. She feels this way b/c she does not want him chasing her. She wants to get away from him, not get closer.
Yes, DBing is very counter intuitive. The first thing MWD teaches is to step back, and to detach. You don't get it, right now. You have a lot to learn. There will be, hopefully, a time to court your W, but it won't be for a while. First, she has to discover that she wants you for her H. And, she won't discover it, if you are smothering her. However, if you follow the rules, it should work in helping you, and in helping her to realize she misses you.
This separation period can work for your good, if you will follow the advice.
Have you read the book, Divorce Remedy? That is the first thing to do. And while you wait for the book, read the information Cadet gave you.
God this [censored]. It hurts so bad.
I get what Sandi is saying. I realized it early this morning as I lie awake in bed. I knew it before she posted her reply above. I had a terrible night. I started suspecting an A based on some things I was seeing. It's too long and too crazy of a story, but I don't think there is a PA. About 6 years ago she had a brief EA. She got discovered by me and as it was we were in counseling at the time. The counselor was clear (as was I) that an EA is harmful. I set boundaries and she followed them. However, I saw about a year ago that they are connected on FB. This wasn't one of the original boundaries since it never entered my mind as I wasn't a social media user. I should have said something right then that she was out of bounds, but I didn't want to start something because our relationship was always so rocky. Fast forward to today - I see she has sent him an email that we are separating. He replied that he was sad for her family, but happy she was coming available. He is married with kids, too. He lives across the country, but indicated he would like to see her if he is ever in the area. This is a friend of hers from long ago. I've always known that she somehow had a thing for him and it always made me feel like I don't measure up. I should have said more long ago, but I didn't.
Sandi,we have never been separated. Yes, I fully understand the Do Not Pursue philosophy and am committed to handling things that way.
Question for everyone - How do you get through all the pain? I'm trying to sleep, but can't. I'm trying to eat, but am sick to my stomach 24/7. I already exercise a lot, so getting active isn't an option. I'm just in a sucky spot. Thanks.
I understand your confusion on the rules. If your wife was willing to work on things in your marriage, then it would make sense to not follow all of the rules. However, it appears that she wants out. The best thing for you and your marriage is to follow the rules.
In response to your question:
Rule #15 - Your wife wants to separate. You need to fully experience the separation. Engaging in conversations will not help the experience.
Rule #8 - Couples who are separated do not purchase gifts for each other.
Rule #9 - You're not dating, you are separated.
The hope is that your wife will realize that she does want a relationship with you during the separation, right? So while separated, be patient and give her the chance to know what it would be like. Meanwhile, continue to work on yourself and develop your skills. Be the husband you want to be for your wife. Develop your listening and communicating skills.
God this [censored]. It hurts so bad.
Question for everyone - How do you get through all the pain? I'm trying to sleep, but can't. I'm trying to eat, but am sick to my stomach 24/7. I already exercise a lot, so getting active isn't an option. I'm just in a sucky spot. Thanks.
Its so hard. I've lost 40 pounds this year and not from exercising. Its been from stress. I even got physically ill from being in my W's presence at one point. My W and I met with a counselor for my younger daughter and I literally went to the bathroom to vomit because I was so wound up.
What you are going through is normally. It [censored]. I've sat in a dark closet and cried out to God for help. I've been at the lowest point in my entire life. Its horrible. Its sickening. But you must go through it. You will feel like you can't survive. You will feel like you can't go on. But you will survive. This won't kill you. None of it is fair and you don't deserve this no matter what your faults. All you can do right now is focus on you and do what you need to do to heal. Focus on your 180's and GAL. Its great that you are exercising. Keep it up. Start a journal. Talk to people. Force yourself to get out of your comfort zone.
Question for everyone - How do you get through all the pain? I'm trying to sleep, but can't. I'm trying to eat, but am sick to my stomach 24/7. I already exercise a lot, so getting active isn't an option. I'm just in a sucky spot. Thanks.
Trust me, most of us, if not all, have the same issues. I've lost 20 pounds since D-Day. I suggest you go to your MD and tell him your symptoms, he can provide you some anti-depressants. Mine put me on Wellbutrin which has few side effects. It helps a bit with the rollercoaster of emotions that comes with the territory. I take melatonin at night to help me sleep. None of these cure the problem, however, but they do help with some of the symptoms.
I'm still having terrible thoughts about the betrayal and particularly how my WW's lack of guilt over the whole thing.
Biggest piece of advice I can give, and I didn't learn this soon enough, is the best way to reconnect starts with working on yourself. You connect to the outside world by looking inside first.
tjcran,
I'm sorry that anybody has to be here. I was in incredible pain 3+ months ago (hard to believe it's been that long) and still am to some degree.
If you're still in communication with your W, it is imperative to follow the DR rules. I would really recommend getting a coach here STAT, because they can fine-tune to your sitch. You'll hear a lot of the same stories, but everyone winds up in a different place.
To tell you how to work through this, I can't. Losing weight? It's called the DB diet. I weigh a bit less now than I did in high school. It's pathetic. Like CWOL says, melatonin helps for sleep - but don't overdo it. Exercise, and then do it again. Get those endorphins working. And, GAL. Find other activities, things to do. Show that you can survive well on your own, in spite of what you may really feel. We're pulling for you.
Hello tjcran,
I'm so sorry for the situation you are in.
The good news is that you have found a wonderful support group here. Don't be too hard on yourself regarding missed signs. The best thing you can do now is to move forward in a positive way. Please notice that I said move forward, not move on.
Knowing what to do and what not to do at this point is crucial. Feel free to give me a call at 303-444-7004 to discuss how we can best help you determine what to do next.
Cristy
Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004
I'm trying to figure out how to follow the DB and DR method when at the same time I feel like we need to emotionally connnect.
To address this, again, I didn't get it until it was too late, but the only way she will reconnect with you is by seeing what is truly inside. For her to do that, you have to connect with what is inside you. Accept yourself for who you are, but focus on bettering yourself at the same time. Throw away the negativity.
In summary, you don't really need to change, you need to wake up.
Thank you everyone for the support! I am committed to doing my best DR I can.
Looking for advice - I talked in an above post how W had an EA about 6 years ago. Now she sent him an email. She doesn't know I know. Since we are going to separate next week, do I even bring this up? I'm trying to think this through. Part of me says Detach and let her do her thing. Part of me says she is breaking a boundary that was set years ago. I'm leaning toward just moving forward with me, but still part of me says I need to man up and take a stand. Thoughts??
What benefit do you see from telling her you know about her re-connect?
Follow the guidelines of DB'ing. Focus on you.
I only read the first page, but it sounds exactly like what I'm dealing with right now. Neither of us have moved out yet
Havn't started my own thread yet, just been reading a lot and I'll agree, these dbING steps seem like the exact opposite of what you should be doing.
But my wife talks to me now in more than grunts and we can have a conversation now. And last week was the first time that she said she wants to try.
I don't follow some of the rules because those few rules are what she is upset about.
Wish I had some advice to offer but I'm lost also.
Keep up the good fight man.
Slow and steady wins the race.
I'm getting more confused by the minute. I've been reading a lot of Sandi's stuff in the LBH threads. I don't see that there is an active EA right now, but I know my W has this dream of a prince charming and she thinks the EA from 6 years ago, whom she just emailed, is that prince. I'm now considering following Sandi's advice for a LBH and acting decisively and swiftly. Until we separate (and I'm the one moving out, with the kids I can't figure out a way that she moves out and they don't suffer) I might just move her stuff out of the bedroom and to the couch? Thoughts??
Are you leaving the house or is she? If its you, why? Where do you intend for the kids to stay? With you or her? Just trying to make sure I have it all correct.
Looking for advice - I talked in an above post how W had an EA about 6 years ago. Now she sent him an email. She doesn't know I know. Since we are going to separate next week, do I even bring this up? I'm trying to think this through. Part of me says Detach and let her do her thing. Part of me says she is breaking a boundary that was set years ago. I'm leaning toward just moving forward with me, but still part of me says I need to man up and take a stand. Thoughts??
What's the content of her email? Is it to get together after she separates? Or does it reveal her EA was active and part of the reason she's seeking separation?
In either case, hold onto this information for now.
I'm leaving the house. Because of our work schedules, I can not be primary care giver for the kids. If I stay in the house she takes the kids to an apartment - makes no sense.
The emails between W and her former EA are pretty tame. Basically W tells him we plan to separate. He responds that he is sad for her and kids but excited that she is available. He states if he travels to our area he will make a point to see her. A few days later she talks about being exhausted and needing space and he offers support. Frankly, I don't feel I can focus on this aspect, I need to focus on me.
Today I'm in a better place - sleep does that doesn't it? I also saw the W struggle a bit, emotionally, today. She is very guarded, always has been, and has been really trying to put forward this happy "my life is going to be so great" face. (At least that's my interpretation.) It was hard for me - my thoughts were essentially, "Great, you'll put your best face on for everyone else but me." Today was a relief because it showed me that she is human and this isn't easy for her either.
It also pointed out that I need to put on some of my happy face too. She needs to see me as a high quality person. One that everyone would want in their life. And this will be my focus - become the man that I know I should be. All this untapped potential needs to be put into motion.
Final thought - was confiding in a friend what has been happening. Started talking about life events from years ago. Was horrified and how my W and I handled things. So many missed opportunities to connect and support and love each other. No more regrets going forward!!!!!!!!
And this will be my focus - become the man that I know I should be. All this untapped potential needs to be put into motion.
I'm glad to hear this. What's your plan to make this happen? Do you have any concrete goals for yourself?
Thanks for the great question. I'm working on developing my goals. I often have things in the back of my mind where I'm thinking to myself "I should do more X." Or "I wish I was more like X." I need to start sorting those out - which ones are fleeting thoughts and which ones I want to develop. Then I need to come up with an action plan. No more just letting life happen! I guess first I need to have a goal surrounding sorting out the goals.
I am not sure how you define an "active EA". Your W wants the fantasy, and she is obviously chasing it down the wrong avenue. An EA really messes with the head. And don't think that b/c the OM is long distant that it's safe. It isn't. Lots of damage can be done via Internet.
As far as you setting a boundary about her contacting the OM, what would be the consequences if she chose not to honor it? I mean, the two of you are already separating, so what else could you do about her contacting him? See, a boundary is completely worthless if you don't have something as a consequence for her dishonoring it. Being separated limits what you can use as effective boundaries. Be sure you know the consequence, before opening your mouth to sound off some boundary.
Have the two of you drawn up any type of a financial agreement, child visitation schedule, etc.?
A lot of women want to live the single life and keep a foot in the M, too. They want the best of both worlds. We call it cake eating. They usually want all the advantages they had in the M, without the disadvantages. You know, like enjoying family times together. Doing things "as a family".......and of course, it's always "for the sake of the kids". No, it's for the sake of the WW! Everything is about her. She will still want to rule the roost, and partake in family events, maybe even have her time to cry on your shoulder when things don't go like she thought they would, or she'll expect you to run over ever times she beckons...........you know, kind of like she is still playing the role of your W, but she's not really.
I hope you get a plan of action in mind, and not fall for her games. She is going to try to play you, so be on guard.
I suggest you start with a massive GAL.
A lot of women want to live the single life and keep a foot in the M, too. They want the best of both worlds. We call it cake eating. They usually want all the advantages they had in the M, without the disadvantages. You know, like enjoying family times together. Doing things "as a family".......and of course, it's always "for the sake of the kids". No, it's for the sake of the WW! Everything is about her. She will still want to rule the roost, and partake in family events, maybe even have her time to cry on your shoulder when things don't go like she thought they would, or she'll expect you to run over ever times she beckons...........you know, kind of like she is still playing the role of your W, but she's not really.
Sandi, what you described is what my WW envisions as "amicable co-parenting." Even though she's knee-deep in our divorce proceedings, she still goes out to dinner with my son and I and we drive together to his baseball games. She's getting half my paycheck for alimony and child support, yet she demands that I pay for various things up front.
Maybe you can come over to my thread to help me strategize the best way to steer this to my advantage?
Two things:
1) Set your boundaries, but where possible, try to frame them as being about you. Otherwise, it looks like you're trying to control them, and what they want is to be safe and feel like they're in control of their desire to be with you. That's one half of what the detachment is for: you accept that you can only work on you, and let them decide what they will do for them. Communicate positively, try to figure out what it is they really want, and do your best to reflect that in your personality and behaviors... but never ever bring it up. Just do it.
2) I absolutely feel for you. I lost 40 lbs in a month. I still have trouble eating sometimes. I developed a terrible cough and sickness. It's the most stress you'll probably ever have. Let the bad thoughts shift around, but don't become a slave to them. GAL hard. That's the best thing you can do right now. You won't be able to do it all the time, and you're going to cry, rage, scream, and feel like the world is the most unfair thing in the world, because now you *know* what you should have been doing, and it's only fair you get one more chance... but the world isn't fair. You have to earn that chance. And, oddly, the only way to earn it is by not trying to earn it at all. Be the you she married, but better, more empathetic, and more ready to never, ever hurt the object of your love again.
Sandi has great advice. She is telling you from the perspective of a former WW. You need to be tough, but you don't get to be controlling. Had I run into her advice from the start and been willing to listen, I know my situation would have had a much greater chance of success than it currently does.
Don't lose hope, but know when to throw in the towel, too. You can't go on pining for reconciliation forever, and that's why you GAL.
Thank for your reply Sandi2,
What I mean by active EA is currently I don't believe they are communicating feelings toward another. Believe me, I'm not naive enough to think it can't or won't go that direction. I understand and agree with your point about boundaries and I've been thinking about that a lot. I don't have any consequences at this point other than to go the divorce route and I'm not ready to decide that yet.
I've been planning out how this will go and again, I realize all your points Sandi2. My W will be staying with the kids and there will be visitation guidelines. They are young enough that they can't be left alone, so she will not be experiencing a lot of freedom. In fact, she will experience a lack of freedom with me not there.
I am not and will not be a pushover. She wants to go this route, so she will carry the burden. Even though I'm not out of the house yet I have reduced communication to only what is necessary. I'm confident, decisive and positive when around her. She has inquired as to my housing arrangements and I've been vague and she is bothered by this. Well, sorry, where I live isn't your concern is it??
As stated a few posts above, I am goal setting and focused on GAL as priorty one.
Am I on track here?
I got to the forum too late....I didn't move out and the relationship was already toast after 11 years and she was not willing to do anything. DB'ing did nothing
I will only say be careful on the moving out piece just from a legal standpoint. It can hurt you if this doesn't work out in the long run .....
Maybe she just does need space and you both can reconnect. Some therapy is just not good these days as I went thru it. I did have a friend who went thru the emotionally focused therapy together which helped them reconnect.
Good luck to you!
Thanks for chiming in jazzy1. Good stuff. I've been talking some of this through with a friend. For now, I'm in a good spot and hope I can hang on to my current frame of mind. At first I was feeling sorry for myself and desperate. Now, I see all the things she has done wrong. I can only take ownership of my stuff and yes, things I did were hurtful. But, she has issues that she needs to address. I wholeheartedly want my MR to work, but not with an unwilling partner that hasn't made any changes. I hope she sees that and can use the "space" she is requesting to work on herself. If she works half as hard as I am going to we could have one awesome marriage.
What are you hoping to gain by moving out?
What I mean by active EA is currently I don't believe they are communicating feelings toward another.
Is this the same guy she had an EA with, once before? The fact he is M and told her he was happy she would be "available" and wanted to see her, should be a big red flag.
Anywho..........if you will listen and to take to heart what I am about to suggest, I think it could work in a couple of ways. She thinks you are going to want to reconcile and expects you to be offering to take her out and do things as a family. In other words, she plans to eat large servings of cake. I believe you should completely throw her plans for a loop.
The one thing she doesn't expect is to see you "enjoy" life without her. Every time she sees you, you are in a hurry to get somewhere for unexplained "plans". You never have time for her, anymore! Even when she calls, you don't seem too broken up or lonely. You seem as if you are very contented, living as a single guy. The kids come home talking about the great time they had with daddy and how happy he was. She wonders what is going on. So, she starts asking questions about where he's going, who with, (especially who with). She gets frustrated b/c she doesn't get a clear answer with details (especially details). She tries buttering up, pouting, crying, giving a cold shoulder, and showing her anger........but nothing works. She starts trying to find out from others what you are doing.
Now, this may sound like nothing more than games to you, but I assure you that there is one thing all WW's have in common. Actually there are many things, but my point is that they see themselves as dumping the H. They don't consider he might dump her. They never see him being the one to get over her and adjust so happily to single life. And one thing for certain, she never intended for her position to be replaced!! The one thing that usually never fails to be seen in a woman is when she realizes she is about to lose her H........she won't be ready. And the double whammy is for her to realize SHE put him on the market. It turns everything around for her. She is suddenly very interested and when she sees he isn't particularly interested in getting quickly back with her.......SHE WANTS HIM!
Here is what I want you to understand clearly. I am not telling you to date other women. I am telling you to get your calendar down and pencil in every weekend, holiday, special occasion, and the days in between. Have something planned if it's nothing more than going to the mall, library, park, or for a walk. It is key that you not share it with her. Never tell her a lie or give some fable excuse. Just don't give her the information she's trying to dig out of you.........and she will try. This is called being mysterious, like MWD says in her DR book. It piques the interest in your W. She won't tell you, so that is why I am telling.
Let her wonder what you are doing. The more she is interested in you, the less she is interested in OM. Am I telling you to be deceitful? No, you really do need to GAL, b/c it will do wonders in restoring your confidence and mental attitude. It helps with the depression and loneliness. It helps you to not spend every waking moment thinking about the situation.
Before I go any further, I want to know what you think about what I've said, and if you aren't sure about something...please say so.
Hi Sandi, awesome reply. I'd really appreciate it if you'd have a look at my thread?
I have some questions regarding interactions with my wife.
Thanks again Sandi2.
I'm with you 100%. Once I chased the "poor me" feelings away, I started thinking about exactly what you describe. However, my motivation is slightly different. I was having a conversation earlier with a trusted confidant and what I said was, "I'm going to make me the best me possible. As a side effect of that it will drive my W mad and she will pursue me."
I feel it is really important to portray a positive attitude during this (and really at all times). My W is questioning her love for me. If I act mopey and needy it prove to her I am a poor choice. But also, long term I will be happier if I adopt a positive attitude.
I also agree Sandi2 that I can not be deceitful. A strong H has integrity and is a man of his word.
In regards to the EA - same one as before. I know it is dangerous.
Thanks again to everyone who is helping me out. It is really improving my mood and helping me to know that this will work out with or without my W.
A strong H has integrity and is a man of his word.
Good for you! Always take the high road even when others don't.
Your motivation lines up with what I purposed in my previous post. I may not have given you that impression, however, we are on the same page.
She will need to be attracted to you, before she starts feeling those "in love" emotions. Most LBH'S think that means to spend time with her and show off his new improvements. However, I do not agree.....based on the mindset of a WW.
The first thing is for her to miss you being around. Having you sitting on ready to do whatever she wants you to do. Having you stop by the store on your way home from work, having you to fix things in the house, having you to watch the kids while she goes out for a while. You were quite convenient for her, but after separation.....things change. This is the time to show her how divorce will look. She needs that reality, in order to shake lose from the fantasy and the fog.
Be sure you look smoking hot whenever there is kid swap. Be positive, appear happy, etc. It's important you not linger. Let her just have a glimpse of you. Trust me, she will notice everything. Right now, your mission is to focus on being unavailable to her, and filling your time with things you have not been able to do in a long time. Find the man you were before M, or become even better.
It will take time for her to be reattracted to you, b/c of her mindset. Don't give up.
Thank you again everyone that is offering support.
Everyday is a challenge. Not much sleep last night. Mind racing as to what is going on and what do I need to do.
Last night W was very irritable and it was uncomfortable being in the house. This morning she started talking about some challenges at work. I was a very good listener and she went on for over 5 minutes. I gave her some quick encouragement and went about my business.
As I was putting my shoes on and about to walk out the door to leave for the day W walked over to where I was. She didn't say anything and I pleasantly said goodbye. It was an odd interaction for two reasons. One - she rarely will put herself in proximity to me when I am saying goodbye. It is usually a shout from across the house. Two - one of our kids was vying for W's attention at the time and W ignored kid and focused on me. That is really rare.
I hate reading into this stuff, but it was unusual enough that I took notice.
Just another thought that I'm interested in hearing others thoughts and experiences.
I've thought about contacting W's parents/sibilings. I haven't acted on this nor would I without lots and lots of serious comtemplation and research on pros/cons. I see LOTS of reasons not to. However, I just wonder what my W's support network would think if they knew what she was doing. I guess my thoughts about this is I'm looking for something to smack my W in the head and say - umm, maybe you could work on your issues a little and stop blaming someone else for where you are.
It is hard to understand her perspective on things as I know she is in a very different place than I am. But it is so odd to me that we are faced with the M crisis and her approach is to do very little if anything and my approach is to soul search, read books, start MC, seek advice, work on myself.
Just some rambling thoughts.
I'm close to my FIL, and called him this morning for the first time in the two months since the BD. I explained the WW concept and he was naturally disappointed in his daughter.
It can help if they have an open mind and care about you too. But if not,I wouldn't suggest adding another brick to that huge wall that she has built.
Somewhere on the rules it says not to get a group of people to team up against your spouse. I know in my situation that is 100% true. My W always feels like everyone is blaming her for stuff. So if she felt like she was once again bearing the brunt of it, felt like people were blaming it on her and that this whole situation was her fault. It would do nothing but drive her further and further away and sever any possibility of a reconciliation.
Point is, my belief is, it's up to you, your spouse and your particular situation.
As far as her differences vs. yours. It is very interesting. I think once they give up the fight then their instinct is flight. Then, once they fly, our instinct is to pursue/chase. That's where we are now. My W wants to leave, separate, "have space", etc... I want to work, do MC, try to do all I can to work on me and us. But, I suppose if I'd have been doing this all alone we wouldn't be in this situation to begin with.
Our stories sound a lot alike, especially with being emotionally distant. I hope things work out for you and we're all here supporting you through this.
I considered doing the same thing tjcran. I probably came within 24 hours of making the phone call to see if my in laws (her parents) would meet with me. But after a lot of praying and thinking about it, I decided not to and I think I'm glad I didn't go through with it. I'm very close to my MIL & FIL. Have a better relationship with them than my own family. But since we separated (and they don't know why), they've not reach out to me once to say "We're sorry for what you are going through, we're praying for you, etc." Nothing. I honestly done know how they would have responded. My main reasoning for wanting to talk to them was not to shame my W or to get them on my side. If was for them to understand why I was filing for D and why I needed primary custody of our kids. Fast forward a month and now my W has said that she thinks she wants to tell them and to apologize to them for hurting me. She plans to apologize to a few people and I think that is wonderful. It shows she's owing it. But the "rules" do say that you shouldn't try and get family and friends to gang up on her. This is a hard call. It all comes down to your relationship with them. Remember, blood is thicker than water.
Don't, it will push her further away. I did and it came back to bite me, she said "Nobody can make me do anything, not my Mom, my Dad or my sister. I make up my own mind, so don't keep wasting your time!" It made me look weak and desperate. I didn't realize it at the time, but I was trying to control the situation by reaching out.
I didn't realize it at the time, but I was trying to control the situation by reaching out.
I think that is exactly what I finally realized and what changed my mind. I realized that I was trying to control the situation and her. We can't. The only thing we have control over is ourselves. The LAST thing our S's want to see in this situation is us trying to control them. I agree with Melo. Spend your time and energy working on YOU and not your S.
I agree that I should not speak to her family. My gut was telling me that and I pondered it some more and reflected on everyone's comments.
I can't control her or her actions.
Well, things seemingly have changed for the worse. W is and has been for years, in a place that I can't understand and I'm now to the point that I can't be around it anymore. Everything I do is wrong and everything is my fault. I was mocked for reading books about improving my communication skills and relationship skills. Her position is that you either click with a person or you don't and there is nothing you can do about it.
The thing that makes that SOOOOO difficult for me to understand is that she is intelligent, educated, a nice person, she's empathetic to others, but she either can't see or won't admit that she plays a role in a relationship.
I'm off to go work on myself and figure this out for myself.
I read my last post and should clarify - I'm not off this site, I'm off on my own (moving out) to go work on myself because that's the only person I can work on.
A question for any WW out there. Do you always know what you are doing is wrong or hurtful? I ask becuase my W had an EA years ago. She has never apologized and we discussed it again recently and she says doesn't understand why it was a problem. Is it possible she is that out of touch or is she saying that as a coping mechanism.
I'm starting to look at my relationship in a different light. As I've talked with a trusted friend about what is going on I am saddened by many things that I am saying. As I talk about how things have gone in my marriage it isn't good. I've made many, many mistakes, but I'm also seeing how poorly I have been treated. I don't believe my W was intentionally trying to hurt me. In many cases she probably didn't know she was hurting me. None-the-less there has been lots of hurt. Will we be able to heal any of it?
I was talking to my W's sister today about a completely different topic. (Sister has no idea what is going on.) In the conversation she was talking about their upbringing and how the family dealt with conflict. It was quite revealing. Been married more than 10 years and none of this has ever been brought up before.
Very sad.
Two updates.
1) I told my wife a few nights ago that she must cease all communication with her former EA including not being friends on FB. She told me that was unfair, but I notice she has unfriended him. She hasn't said anything to me.
2) I'm leaving for the weekend to give her space. By what I see on this forum, most people believe she should be the one to leave. My belief is she should get a dose of real life, her alone with a house and kids, not a free weekend to do as she pleases.
A friend told me yesterday "The grass is not greener on the other side of the fence. The grass is greener wherever it gets watered, fertilized and cared for." If she doesn't want to water and fertilize and take care of our family of course the grass will turn brown.
I've thought about contacting W's parents/sibilings. I haven't acted on this nor would I without lots and lots of serious comtemplation and research on pros/cons. I see LOTS of reasons not to. However, I just wonder what my W's support network would think if they knew what she was doing. I guess my thoughts about this is I'm looking for something to smack my W in the head and say - umm, maybe you could work on your issues a little and stop blaming someone else for where you are.
A lot of H's in the same shoes have tried going to the in-laws for support. Even when the H is very close to his W's family, the bottom line is that she is their flesh & blood and although they may not be happy with her choices, the parents will support their daughter. One H was extremely close to his FIL, but the W's mother supported her and the dad said he could do nothing about it.
The WW is going to do all she can to make, at least one of her parents (usually the mother) believe she is justified in feeling and doing what she's doing.
A question for any WW out there. Do you always know what you are doing is wrong or hurtful? I ask becuase my W had an EA years ago. She has never apologized and we discussed it again recently and she says doesn't understand why it was a problem. Is it possible she is that out of touch or is she saying that as a coping mechanism.
Unless I have missed someone, I think I may be the only former WW around here. To answer your question, yes she certainly does know it is wrong and hurtful. What a lot of H's don't get is that the WW simply doesn't care. Her selfishness drives her decisions, and if a hint of guilt tries to creep in, she'll quickly justify herself and continue with her waywardness.
I was probably about as straight laced and proper wife as anyone, and yet, when I reached the rebellious stage........I really don't remember having much guilt at all, but it wasn't b/c I didn't know better. It is just so difficult for H's to realize that his W could be so opposite of who she once was. And to him, it seem as if it took place overnight.
If your W never apologized or showed any signs of remorse after the previous EA, then she never repented, and it was swept under the rug. A woman can stop an A, and remain wayward in her heart. It shows in her attitude, and the way she talks to her H, and the way she treats him. He may try to overlook it, but it all boils down to her disrespect and resentment toward him.
1) I told my wife a few nights ago that she must cease all communication with her former EA including not being friends on FB. She told me that was unfair, but I notice she has unfriended him. She hasn't said anything to me.
Did you read the link on setting boundaries? I recommend you study up on it and then decide what your personal boundaries will be, based on your values and belief system. Ask yourself what you cannot tolerate in your life, and then ask yourself what you cannot live without. (And please don't say your W, like some guys have said).
Boundaries are placed to protect us. Imagine a circle drawn around you, and you decide what comes into that circle and what doesn't. You have to protect your feelings. For example, let's say one of your boundaries is that you will not tolerate a lack of respect in your own home......or from your wife and children. In order for this to be an effective boundary, there has to be a consequence if it is not honored. All boundaries must have effective consequences if not honored. Simply telling her that it is your boundary does nothing! She isn't going to start honoring your boundary just b/c you
said it was a boundary.
Here's the tricky part about boundaries,
you are the only one who can do any action. Let's say your WW does something to show her lack of respect for you. You would need to do something that would be an effective consequence for disrespecting you. ( Of course, I am not referring to any sort of violence, or abuse). Here's another tricky part. Boundaries are not about dictating what the other person can do or not do. It's not laying down the law, or giving an ultimatum. Your wife is free to make choices. Boundaries are set to protect your feelings. So, it is about you and protecting you. If she chooses to not honor your boundary....that is her choice. With that in mind, what would you do that involved only you doing some type of action that she would see as a consequence for her choosing to disrespect you?
I have seen a lot of soft guys say that they will leave the room, or some other melty-cheese stuff. Well, what does that solve? He's already being bullied by her, so if he runs off to hide every time she disrespects him.......it will continue. He would have to do something that would not be worth it to her to continue to show disrespect. The problem is that most guys don't want to do the tough stuff. They want to cow down and continue to eat cr@p. He has to enforce his boundary by having a tougher consequence.
I remember one man told his W that if she continued slamming the cabinets doors (b/c she was pi$$ed at him), that he would leave and file for separation. WOW! That is a little extreme, IMO, but you can't say he wasn't tough. I would not recommend use that consequence for everything, but maybe it was related to her show of disrespect, I don't remember. The point is that she still had a free choice, and she could continue slamming cabinet doors and throw in the pots & pans, if she wanted. He was not dictating what
she had to do. He just told her what
he would do if she continued.
I'm not that good explaining about boundaries, so please read the link Cadet gave. Oh, and be sure of one thing. She will test you to see if you will really carry through. So never state a boundary that you are not prepared to back up. And don't start going around crowing about boundaries all of a sudden. Study it, first, and make sure you know what you are doing.
Sandi2,
Thanks for your repsonses and sharing of wisdom. I am not going to the in-laws for support. Like most, you hope that a stern talking to by mom or dad would do the trick, but in reality the W would see it as a violation of trust, would try to convince her parents she is right, etc. Not good. I realize that.
No, my W has never repented. I doubt she ever will until she can come to grips with some self-esteem, self-confidence and self-awareness issues.
I have read the link on boundaries. The boundary was not made lightly and I tried to state it as best I could about me. I didn't tell her she had to do it and even emphasized that this is her choice not mine. I stated it similar to this - You have told me that separation will give you time and space to figure out if reconciliation is possible. In my mind reconciliation is not possible if there is any communication with the EA, including a connection on FB. She bristled and I then stated, when I say reconciliation is not possible I mean I will file for D immediately.
I followed up with, "If you would like a few days to mull this over I'm okay with that and I will check back with you for your answer." She requested a few days, the FB friend was gone within 12 hours. I will ask her for her decision on Sunday.
I feel the boundary was clear and the consequence was clear. Will I follow through - Yes. I know others have differing view points and that is okay. I will no longer eat cr@p.
you hope that a stern talking to by mom or dad would do the trick, but in reality the W would see it as a violation of trust, would try to convince her parents she is right, etc. Not good. I realize that.
Also, how strong do you think that makes you look...bringing in mommy or daddy to help you. If that was your child (just saying) would you bring in gramma or grandpa to help with their behavior??? getting advice from them is one thing but having them come in and speak with your child...UUGH...
Hopefully lesson learned, ok?
Zephyr,
Like I said, I haven't contacted her family. I'm putting my thoughts down - I considered it because I wanted a certain outcome, but after contemplating it there was a snowballs chance I would get that outcome.
Roller coaster ride continues...
A cryptic text message makes me wonder what it means. Then a phone call about the kids makes me wonder what she's thinking. Why does she have the control over what happens???
Been working on myself as much as I can. Been busy being social and reconnecting with friends and family. Also been reading "No More Mr. Nice Guy" as recommended. Yep, that's me, Mr. Nice Guy.
Like I said, I haven't contacted her family. I'm putting my thoughts down - I considered it because I wanted a certain outcome, but after contemplating it there was a snowballs chance I would get that outcome.
In-laws are never reliable. In my case, after I told my MIL what was REALLY happening, she was shocked and fully supported our marriage. She had a night of stern talking to my WW, sent her packing back home and ordered her to stay home. That was all good until two weeks later, my WW apparently threatened to commit suicide if she made her stay in the marriage. Then MIL caved and gave her $6K for her L's retainer to sue me for divorce. :-(
Blood is thicker than water.
Why does she have the control over what happens???
She has only the amount of control that you let her have.
Glad to hear you're reading no more mr. nice guy.
If she's sending confusing messages, feel free to share them here and we can help you process them.
I know I have to establish control and create boundaries and I am really trying to figure that out. The No More Mr. Nice Guy book is giving me a lot to think about and work on.
I HATE that she has made a unilateral decision about our M without consulting me. That is the part where I feel she has all the control. We have always made big decisions together, and now she is making the ultimate M decision without me. That isn't what we promised each other we would do.
So, my W wants to talk about us tonight. I have no idea if this is - I've decided to D - or - Let's try again. My plan is to listen, validate and that's pretty much it. I know that she is going to press me for my feelings or input - she usually does - but I'm going to be as strong as I can and not react much at all.
What does everyone think? Is this the proper approach?
Yes it the right approach. Say its a lot of information and you need time to think it all over. keep it focused on what she says. Let her talk about what she wants and validate. You don't give an opinion about it just validate her feelings on stuff. doing that there is no chance for argument.
Good luck, you have this.
I'm getting angry and frustrated. Please chime in and help me through this.
Last night she wanted to talk. Then when it came down to it she said she was too tired. I said that she at least needs to let me know if anything has changed so I can plan accordingly (separate or divorce or what?)
We talked for a bit. I had begun the LRT two weeks ago. She is ticked that I have been distant stating that it proves that I can't change and will always be unavailable to her. I validated and backed off, but she pushed the issue. I then explained that when she said she wanted to S I consciously was giving her the space that she said she wanted. Apparently she didn't want that?!?!?!
She is convinced that I am the source of all problems in our MR. She says she needs someone who is emotionally available, yet she herself is completely emotionally unavailable at this point. Actually has been pretty much our entire relationship. She can't see this and won't hear it from anyone.
Like I said, I'm frustrated becuase I feel stuck. I'm angry because I'm busting my a$$ to improve and my partner is uncooperative.
Thanks for letting me vent!
tjcran,
The situation with your wife sounds very similar to mine; she's upset because she felt neglected, but now she's distant and I can't really give her the attention she so badly wanted. It seems to be a common conundrum.
I wish I had some good advice for you, but I don't. Others on this forum can provide better advise than I can. I've used input from the forum and I've had a DB coach. The coach seems to have a much lighter touch than the forum. The coach may be right about the lighter touch. I want to save my marriage, I also don't my wife to walk all over me, so frankly, I'm often confused about the best approach to take.
Anyway, I wish you luck and I hope you find some things that work well. I'll have to follow your thread and maybe it'll help me navigate the murky waters.
I'm getting angry and frustrated. Please chime in and help me through this.
Last night she wanted to talk. Then when it came down to it she said she was too tired. I said that she at least needs to let me know if anything has changed so I can plan accordingly (separate or divorce or what?)
Don't push the R talk. If this happens again, just say, "OK, Get some rest" Then go out of the house and GAL. Don't ask about rescheduling either.
I'm in agreement with cubebot, no R talk. Before DB I'd initiate R talk and it'd always make things worse. Since I'm blind and I have a thick skull, I never did make the correlation. So here it is:
- R Talk equals PO'd spouse (one to one correlation)
Now I dread R talk like the plague. I've had more cases of explosive diarrhea in the past two months than I've had in my entire life. (Explosive diarrhea is always the perfect excuse for excusing yourself.)
The emotional rollercoaster continues.
Told the kids what is going on yesterday - Dad's leaving for a while. Both were trying so hard to come up with alternatives to me moving out. That hurt. Found a place yesterday and I'm moving this weekend. Mixed emotions about that. Leaving feels terrible, but staying is not healthy for either of us. I can't sleep well when she is around and all I can think of is the R. When I'm away I can sleep and I can focus on myself.
Started talking about visitation this morning. It led to her talking about her feelings about the R. I did a DAMN GOOD JOB of validating and keeping quiet otherwise. The one thing I did say was how hard it is for me to not swoop in and comfort her when she is hurting.
One thing I am committed to - I will teach my son everything I can about the realities of marriage. No one ever taught me how to listen to a woman, how to empathize, how to validate, how to stand up to her when needed, how to take care of yourself in a marriage, get your own needs met and how to truly take care of your mate.
tjcran,
I'm sorry it's been rough for you, but I'm glad you're looking forward to some space and time for yourself.
We haven't talked to my sons about the marital issues although they've heard stuff along the way. My youngest constantly tells my wife and I that we're awesome parents and I know that he's trying to say "make it work" but it's also very sad that he feels like he needs to help fix things. Anyway, I'm just saying that I know how hard it can be when children are involved.
I'm glad you did a good job validating; I'm still struggling with that. I think teaching your son about you hard-learned lessons would be a good thing. I wish I'd known that stuff before getting married.
Last night I put my best foot forward and was in a super good mood when she came home. Had some light conversation and then did my own thing. Felt good to me that I wasn't waiting for her approval.
Today, again, had a great attitude. Some light conversation and even some discussion about the upcoming move. My mood seemed to pull her mood up. (Side effect - we like being around people who improve our mood.)
Working hard on improving my communication skills and have committed to pushing out of my comfort zone at least once a day. Also still working on GAL.
So, I've committed to making changes to myself. I need to do these changes for me, not just to win my W back. With the separation I hope my W actually gets to experience the changes. My fear is that she won't see much since we will have little contact.
I also wonder what will prompt her to change. She isn't without fault, but she puts 100% of the blame squarely on me. What kinds of things might allow her to see the bigger picture instead of being so focused on "husband = unhappiness."
She will notice TJ; even if you are separated. My W was in another house and fully engaged in her A and she still noticed what was going on with me and the changes I was making. So much so that it even pissed her off.
Dont worry about her or what might prompt her to change. Keep your focus squarely on yourself. It does not matter what she says or does at this point. At least not to you.
Hi tcran,
I am catching up on your sitch and I can say that I know the struggles and challenges you are going through.
I am still learning to keep it together and follow the advice in these forums as well as the Dbing. So my thoughts may be a little textbook, but I know in my heart they are the best options we have.
Dbing is not about getting the WAS to notice us so much as it is about us becoming the best possible spouse, parent, and individual that we can be. There should be zero expectation for the WAS as this is where we learn that we can only control ourselves. By Dbing you will heal,become a better man, and only God willing, maybe intrigue will be created where the WAS will start to be curious.
So in short do it for you first, the children, and then no matter what happens you will be in the best place possible for whatever opportunity the future holds.
I send you my support and have your family in my prayers that everything turns out for the best.
Everything you are saying is correct and I am doing my best to focus on me. It has taken me a while, but I am fully aware that any changes I make need to be for my own benefit, not someone elses.
But, I think everyone can relate - your spouse has been your partner for years. When they fail, you fail. When they succeed, you succeed. When they hurt, you hurt. When they experience joy, you experience joy.
I was lying in bed last night with my W right there next to me. I soooo, wanted to cuddle up to her and hold her because I know she is hurting, struggling, etc. She needs support, understanding and comfort more now than at any point in her life and it rips my insides to shreds that she is alone and feeling so distant from connection, when it is literally lying next to her.
tjcran,
I totally feel your pain. My WAW was my partner for almost half of my life. And in that time I think I become dependent on her so much so that as you say, her pain my pain, her joy my joy, and then BOOM!!!!
BD and now she looks like my W. But in the past 3 months I have learned that the W that was with me for 20 years is no longer here. I think my pain is for the woman that I knew, but now after almost 2 weeks separated anger is swelling inside me when I have to see a stranger every few days while exchanging my d5.
But my point is that your pain and desires are normal, you feel instinctively drawn to do the very things that will drive her further away as she is going through her own emotional turmoil. My WAW put up a wall of anger so she could go through with her decision. Her decision was not necasarily what she wanted, but the breakdown in our MR was more painful for her to endure.
The lesson that we in this situation are learning is that 2 complete attractive confident individuals that want each other as opposed to need each other will have a better chance for a solid sound MR. And each individual is responsible for them self and only them self.
I think some of us lose track of this in our MR and it can lead to where we are now.
I am pulling for you and encourage that you follow others threads as well as continue to pose questions here and your perspective will open up and you will find strength to grow, do what is right for you, and ultimately create the best chance for any future with your W. But as Dbing teaches us, we will be better for it no matter what the outcome is, and that is the hope we must hang on to.
More crazy stuff. We had to talk about some logistical stuff regarding the separation, so we sat down and talked. I had prepared myself so if feeling kinda stuff came up I would listen and validate and have a positive attitude. The conversation was going great - all about who will do what and when - and then it turned into talking about us. She pushed it that direction - I was only along for the ride.
It went well and I did a much better job of listening, validating and even empathizing. A few spots I could have talked too much. Even though it ventured into sad stuff, I kept a positive attitude thinking to myself - this was sad when it happened, but I now know I'm better and won't repeat those mistakes. That way of thinking really helped and I think it made the entire conversation go well. I even felt some connection that we haven't had in years.
I'm still expecting this to end in D, but I will not stop trying and I am glad I have found a better way of communicating that leads to connection.
Good job. You not only learned from your mistakes, but applied what you learned.
I'm still expecting this to end in D, but I will not stop trying and I am glad I have found a better way of communicating that leads to connection.
Unfortunately, we can't know how things will eventually turn out because you have no idea what your W will choose to do. BUT, you can fight for your M (even when she's not willing to) and you are on the right path to do that. Stay focused and follow the process. I know it hurts when people say things like "You'll be a better person after all of this, even if you don't stay married" or "You'll be ok even if you get D" because the truth is you don't want a D and you don't want a life that doesn't include your W. But you don't have any control whatsoever over your W so all you can do is focus on you and what you need to do. The good thing is that by doing that, you have a real fighting chance at saving your M.
I'm still expecting this to end in D, but I will not stop trying and I am glad I have found a better way of communicating that leads to connection.
Unfortunately, we can't know how things will eventually turn out because you have no idea what your W will choose to do. BUT, you can fight for your M (even when she's not willing to) and you are on the right path to do that. Stay focused and follow the process. I know it hurts when people say things like "You'll be a better person after all of this, even if you don't stay married" or "You'll be ok even if you get D" because the truth is you don't want a D and you don't want a life that doesn't include your W. But you don't have any control whatsoever over your W so all you can do is focus on you and what you need to do. The good thing is that by doing that, you have a real fighting chance at saving your M.
Well said LiM.
Fighting for what we believe in while understanding that the only thing we can control and improve is ourselves. I truely believe this, but find it a great challenge to keep it firmly programmed in the mind and heart. The situations we find ourselves in is truely a test for us to connect the knowledge with the core of our hearts and minds, and therefore our sincere actions.
Thank you for the comments and reminder.
Talked with some friends today about what is going on. They are a happily married couple and I wanted to talk to them to gain some perspective on some things I've been thinking and/or struggling with.
Wow! They've never heard of DB, but they made several recommendations that were pretty much lifted right from the DB/DR pages. It really helped to listen to them reinforce some of the things I've read.
When lost, you sometimes need someone to give you directions.
Update,
I've been out of the house since Saturday. It is nice being away from the W because there was so much tension. But, it is hard being away from my home, which I built with my own two hands and my family which I also built with my own two hands.
I was back at the house spending time with the kids and saw that my W had taken down all pictures of the two of us and any picture of just me. That hurt. At least she left up pictures of me and the kids.
W and I had a brief interaction and she is so snippy with me. I wasn't prepared and I snipped back a bit. I've got to be prepared for this next time. Come to think of it, she has always been snippy with me and I just need to have a strategy to deal with it.
Coming to grips with the reality that this is going to turn into a D. I'm not giving up hope, but the light is getting more and more dim. W is a woman that once she makes up her mind she doesn't change it even when there is a wall of reasons for her to change course. I wish she'd get some therapy because she is a very unhappy person.
Anyway - working on me and focused on being an awesome dad.
TJ,
I know how that snippy stuff is; I always get drawn-in. I do eventually remember to to back-off and affirm, but when things heat up my brain goes into defense mode. That's something I really have to work on.
Things are pretty dim for me right now as well. The sinking feeling isn't fun, but I do know I've got other stuff to look forward to, and like you, being an awesome dad is one of them.
Hi TJ,
I want to echo doodler's thoughts. We have become conditioned over many years of interactions with our W's and so it does take a focused effort to not snip back. Having a plan, and reminding ourselves that we are not trying to win an argument, but we are trying to validate her feelings whether right or not.
The sinking feeling is normal as I see many of us going through it, but as doodler says, looking forward to other things can help with the pain. I know easier said than done.
Hang in there, enjoy the moments with the kids and DB the heck out of today for yourself.
Hey, the good news it this, if you are still sniping back, you have something to improve on. Once you get to the point where you don't know what else you can improve and things aren't changing, then I think you would have real trouble.
Wow, that is rough about the photos.
Sounds like she needs some way to see clearly... a made up mind is a closed mind.
you sound really strong ... don't give up!
Only got a minute, so brief update.
Last night I started feeling like I don't want to reconcile. Today, same thing only stronger. Maybe I'll change, but right now I'm seeing all the hurt she has caused and her mistakes and how she can easily toss our marriage in the dumpster and I do not want to be with a person like that. Her family has confirmed that she will never admit she is wrong and never apologizes. Always blames everyone else for her problems. Yes, I made lots of mistakes, but a marriage takes two. I want someone that accepts me even with my mistakes. Realizes I'm human not superhuman.
Later.
tjcran,
Over the past few weeks, I've been exactly where you are; I'm uncertain that I'd even want reconciliation, even if I could. It's the approach-avoidance thing; I still love my wife, but at the same time I don't want her because it would be too painful to go through this whole thing again.
I don't have any words of wisdom, but I have read that you should treat reconciliation as entirely new relationship. So maybe that's the approach to take; see if the love grows sometime in the future. Right now, even though I love my wife, I'm not even thinking about reconciliation because I've been pummeled and beaten-down so badly, that I'd probably consider marrying Mike Tyson before I'd take my wife back. That sentiment may well change the next time the wind blows, or if Mike Tyson actually shows up at my doorstep.
TJ
I hear you! My WW is the exact same way. Her family gets run over by her all the time and they accept it. Does not mean that we do! Take it slow though, give your W time and space to heal. It will do both of you some good. Unfortunately for me, I reacted emotionally which sent me into a huge mess and a D.
I stopped snooping many days ago and that has helped immensely. My anxiety has come way down.
I've limited my communication with W to only the absolute essentials, that has also helped.
With the help of counseling and lots of introspection I've discovered that my W has been manipulating me for most of our marriage. Since we are apart, that has stopped, and I feel much better.
I began weight lifting again and that feels great.
I think all of these things combined have really boosted my overall spirit and outlook as well as even caused some physical changes.
Ask me tomorrow and my answer might be different, but I think I'm going to be able to get through this.
For me the answer to the whether I want to reconcile is always going to be, I am open to the idea. Half of the time I don't want her back, the other half I do. I will always reserve (at least to myself) the option to consider. Anything can happen, miracles, pure regret, forgiveness, ect. I am realistic, I don't think that she will ever come clean, be honest, be regretful, ask for forgiveness, work on her issues, be committed, or have a desire to put forth the immense effort to make a go at it. But that is mind reading, who knows. I also have no idea if those things actually happened if I could forgive and put the effort in to make it work either. So, I reserve a possibility for consideration.
Ralph,
I share those feelings as well. I'd leave the option of reconciliation open, but obviously it would never work without 100% committment from my W and that includes her examining her own contributions to the demise of our M. At this point, she is telling me and others that she is without fault.
My WW has always said the same. She also told me during the scorched earth period, that she is what she is and knows that she will never change. She has also told me that things should be easy in a R, and there shouldn't be any work.
Ralph,
Are we married to the same person?? I actually had to hold back laughter when my W told me the line about in a good R everything happens naturally and it doesn't take any effort. That's what the fog does to a person.
Yesterday I saw my W when I visited the kids. After seeing how she is, I realized I need to focus is on damage control. My W keeps asserting that her focus is 100% on doing what is right for the kids. Well, when your D is begging for your attention and you can't even hear her because you are so focused on your phone, how is that doing what is right for the kids? When you are sweet mommy one minute and irritable snappy mom the next, how is that doing what is right for the kids?
Oh yes, that is my WW. She has completely changed from super mom to snappy irritable mommy. She is only super happy when she is going to be out with OM. This weekend she is leaving town with him and missing daughters one dance recital of the year and other daughters final soccer game of the year. The urge to people please OM and friends is more powerful than most precious people's events. Oh well.
Lots to update.
Last night I took the kids to a play. When I returned my W was in a bad mood as usual. She wouldn't even look at me and would walk past me with a wide berth. I finally asked her if something was wrong. She went into a monologue about what a crappy person I am and then said she is filing for D next week.
I asked her what was it that finally made up her mind. Her response to that was "I just know. Why do you have to be so condescending?"
I'm not sure how that could be interpreted as a condescending question, but that is how she sees most everything - everyone is always looking down on her.
Part two.
This morning I'm coming to spend time with the kids. When this was planned out I had said I had a few things to do in the morning and would be over around 9:00 am. I said I would spend the day with the kids until 2:00 pm.
I was running behind and told her I wouldn't get there until a little after 9. I arrived at 9:15. She is immediately snippy with me and upset since I told her I would be there around 8:30. I apologize for being late (didn't argue about what time we had originally agreed on.) Then she says that she will be home at 6:00 pm. I laughed because I thought she was joking. She was serious. I told her that we agreed it would be 2:00 pm. She "recalls" that we didn't agree on a specific time only that I said I would spend the entire day with the kids.
I used to think I was nuts. Now it is so clear to me that it is her.
Tj,
It appears to be a common theme the further into the process it goes with the W. The anger and crazy just reaches a point of epic WTF???
But in an odd way it really does help us as we step back and realize, that we are not the crazy one that we thought we were at the BD.
At this point we just have to do our best to remain civil like we would with a crazy neighbor.
I wish you the best of luck and wisdom in handling the crazy that you have to deal with. I know the experience first hand, but detaching is getting easier to a degree. Maybe because when I see the crazy, it is not the W I had been with for so many years. It is simply someone that looks the same, but certainly not acting the same.
Yesterday I was really angry. After the time debacle from above, I was ticked. Especially since she used the time to go out with friends. I haven't had an hour with friends in over a week because I'm the one who had to move, I'm the one that now has a long commute, I'm the one that puts in long hours at work. It isn't fair.
I know that I have to stop thinking that way, but this is a roller coaster of emotions.
I'm still trying to sort this out - on Valentines Day she gives me a present that talks about how we will grow old together and she wants me to know how committed she is to our marriage. Then two months later she tells me to move out and less than a month later she says she is filing for D. No talking about it, no trying anything, just done. How does one process that??
Tjcran,
They are living a fantasy, and want the LBS to take on the responsibility for it. I know your pain from the emotional roller coaster as my commute has gotten longer, she wants my D's when she wants them and me to have them when she does not.
Just one month before the BD she sat me down and told me how she loved me, supported me and was confident in me. A week ago she tells me she wonders why she ever married me 20 years ago. I guess the truth is there is no way to process that. I have been trying now for several months to do so and all it does is leave me feeling crazy....but wait, I'm not crazy. I say what I mean and mean what I say. She clearly does not.
Hang in there my friend. This is why we will stop believing anything they say,and just move forward and focus on making ourselves the best we can.
SadHub,
I have to keep reminding myself to believe nothing she says.
I am being a really good dad right now. It is refreshing to be completely present while I'm with my kids. They deserve that.
I'm being pretty good to myself. I'm eating well and working out regularly.
I'm getting advice from here thanks to you and many others and I'm reading regularly about how to improve my relationship skills.
While all this is going on I'm still working and keeping in touch with my extended family.
(That was my pep talk to myself.)
Perfect pep talk tjcran!
I will echo it and I am confident this simple formula will keep you and me, and all that use it sane, help with our healing, and prepare us for better days ahead in any relationship we may be a part of.
Have a peaceful evening and know that you and your family are in my prayers.
For some reason this evening became very tough. At one point I was convinced that I wouldn't make it through this. However, now I'm in a better frame of mind. When boarding this roller coaster please secure all loose objects!
Can I get some advice or encouragement??
Tonight I will see my W when I visit the kids. Each time this has happened there has been tension. Partly because of me - I'm angry - and partly because of her, she is irritable and moody. I don't want it to be like that. What I want to do is give her a nice greeting and a hug. Why? Because that is who I am. I want people to know that I genuinely am glad to see them. Even my W, who has hurt me and our family, is someone that I like seeing, albeit in tiny doses at this point.
Part of me says this isn't a good idea because I know my wife wants to eat cake. She wants this D to go smooth, so she can feel less guilty. She appears to be thinking only of herself at this point. Why should I help reduce the guilt?
Part of me also looks at LRT methods and I feel I shouldn't be too engaging. Also, part of me thinks acting this way would be a 180 and she would really take notice.
What should I do?
Each time this has happened there has been tension. Partly because of me - I'm angry - and partly because of her, she is irritable and moody. I don't want it to be like that.
What I want to do is give her a nice greeting and a hug. Why? Because that is who I am. I want people to know that I genuinely am glad to see them. Even my W, who has hurt me and our family, is someone that I like seeing, albeit in tiny doses at this point.
I think their is no reason to be ANGRY.
That is on YOU.
So the only way that you will not be angry is if you hug her and give a nice greeting?
Not sure that is a great idea, but not being angry is also a good strategy and I think you should focus on your children and how you portray your image to them.
Certainly you are not angry at them, Right?
So you need to detach from all of this.
Go visit your children, fake not being angry if you need to.
Skip the small talk with your wife and the hug.
It is pursuit and not part of this deal.
Oh, and please start a new thread as you are over 100 posts, and we can discuss this there.