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Posted By: sandi2 Sandi's Reflections - 02/14/16 11:53 AM
I've got to break this down into several posts, so if someone responds before I get it all copied and pasted, please don't think I am ignoring you. It's a quite day around my place and I've been mostly reading posts from husbands who have a wayward wife, I am not going as far to say that every LBH who has a WW is the nice-guy type of man. I do get amazed in how many I see on the board that usually have those nice-guy traits. In all fairness to men across the board and over the years, i have definitely seen a few who were not considered the nice-guy type........they just had a WW.

Anyway, I am going to just talk about it, for anyone newcomer who may might stumble across this thread. I want to tell the readers that I am not down on anyone, and I am not trying to make enemies in saying what I do. I am not truing to be offensive, even if it is taken as so. I am expressing what I have been observing for quite some time, and I hope it won't run anyone away from the board, but I do feel strongly that it needs to be addressed.

I see many husbands as being the nice-guy type of man. The kind of man women love to have for a friend. Kind of like having a big brother to protect her and listen to her problems. Someone to hang out with, when there's nothing better to do. However, at some point in the R, she begins to lose respect for him b/c he lets her get away with bad behavior and mistreating him. I am sorry to say, gentlemen, all women will try it, and if they say they don't......she's fibbing.

The nice-guy tells himself he's "taking the high road", but really, he is being passive and avoiding confrontation, or the issues. He won't call his W out, stand up to her, hold her accountable, or let her deal with the consequences of her behavior. He tells himself it is easier to just leave it alone......keep his mouth shut and keep the peace. Only problem is......it doesn't work. All the time he thinks he is keeping the peace through avoidance, the resentment and disrespect is brewing in the wife. She becomes more and more wayward in her heart. She begins to harbor a lot of bad feelings in her heart. It shows through her attitude, the way she talks to him and her unique style of disrespecting him. Eventually, she finds something, or someone else, to give her the thrill that was lacking in her R with her H. He wants what she thinks is a "real man". What she chooses is usually a loser and fits the term of "affairing down", b/c he is not the man her H is, much less a better man. However, he fills her head with fantasy nonsense and makes her feel sexy, young, beautiful, smart, valuable..........whatever she seems to need to hear, he's there to give her all the b.s. And if for some reason that man doesn't work out so well, she moves on to the next guy, b/c she gets that excitement and thrill of a possible new love.

The big question looming here is......what is this wayward woman's husband doing all the time she's engaging in this behavior? Personally, I am saddened at how many men continue to think everything will be okay if only he can persuade her to change her mind. Some men have their wakup call when they discover an affair, and oh boy.....they are ready to do everything they should have been doing for years! He just can't understand why his WW doesn't feel the same way. He is awake now, so what's her problem? Why can't she just give the M a chance? In his attempt to show her he's working at making the changes that she always wanted, he puts on his cape and tights and writes across his chest, "SUPER HUSBAND". SH goes into action doing everything! He works all day, comes home and does all the housework, cooks for the family, plays with the kids, gives them their baths and tucks them into bed......all the while the Princess is communicating with her latest OM. Super Husband is stirring around like a busy little bee and smiling.........watching her to see if she is noticing all that he's doing for her and how happy he is to get to do it. What he doesn't know is if she gives him a thought at all, it will be along the lines of, "If he's crazy enough to do it all, then I'm sure not going to stop him". The really ugly WW will think, "What a fool. He thinks he is impressing me, but it's too little and way too late, now. I could care less how he works his tail off, b/c it has no affect on my feelings".

This woman's heart is closed to her H. He could work himself down into the ground and it would have no affect on her feelings. Some nicer WW's might say, "Thanks", once in a while, but soon she takes it for granted and expects him to do everything. After all, she's entitled! When he serves her coffee in bed, she's entitled to it. When he compliments how great she looks, she's entitled to compliments. And when a person feels entitled, they don't really appreciate the one giving, b/c they are arrogant. And you know what really gets me? The nice-guy H who says he doesn't matter if she appreciates it or not, that he's doing it b/c he wants to do it. Of course, b/c he has the nice-guy mindset and believes eventually it will pay off.

The wayward wife is the epitome of arrogance. Everything is about her. She will step on whoever gets in her way of whatever she wants at the moment. She is a master of manipulation and will use every trick in the book to accomplish what she wants. Her desires are at the top of her priority list, and she believes it should be on everyone else's, too.

So what does a man do when his wife's heart is hardened and closed off to him? When all his nice-guy ways fail miserably, what is the next step? Well, from what I have seen in the majority of the nice-guys, their nature is to want to wait it out. WAIT IT OUT?? What exactly do they thinnewk will happen? Let me say this to all the nice-guys out there.......this is part of your problem in the MR. You are passive and you want to just wait it out about everything! You think things will eventually work itself out. If most WW's are turned anything like me, then that type of attitude of the nice-guy drives her crazy!! A nice-guy will sit on his butt and watch his WW have an A and think if he just sits around and waits it out, then everything will eventually be okay. That is the laziest approach.......it's not even an approach. It's nothing! Oh, and I have seen, and maybe at some point over the last nine years I have been guilty of saying something similar..........that there is nothing he can do to control her, so............. It leaves the impression of giving him the excuse of remaining passive. No, there is plenty he can do, but does he really want to do it?

Continued on next post.




Series Links

Links to this series of threads

First thread
For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554&page=1

Second thread
For the Newcomer LBH who has a wayward wife Part 2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2548490#Post2548490

Third thread
For the LBH who has a WW Part 3
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2551039#Post2551039

4th thread
Guide for LBH who has a Wayward Wife
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2551811#Post2551811

5th thread
Help for LBH who has a WW
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2593214#Post2593214

6th thread (this thread)
Sandi's reflections
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2653323#Post2653323



Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/14/16 11:56 AM
So, let me calm down and get back to what a nice-guy should do when he
is faced with a WW.  There are three areas, at least, that I have seen
these wayward wives have in common.  First comes resentment, and
there's no telling how many years it has been building.  The H can't
do very much about how she feels toward things that has happened in
the past.  All he can do is deal with the things in the present, and
if he is aware of issues that cause her resentment.....and if he is
causing it, then he can work to correct it.  Just one example, (and
we'll say this started before her waywardness)............ it may be
the way his family treats his wife.  She may feel that he does not
defend her to his family.  It hurts her that he won't speak up to
them, and he takes the passive way out.  So, the resentment begins.
Then as other things happens that she see as him not taking proper
action, it adds more resentment to what's already there.  If he would
just stand up to his family one time, it could desolve those hurt
feelings she's pushed down, but he doesn't, so she keeps pushing it
down and the resentment turns to bitterness.  If he would listen
carefully, it would show in her conversations.  She may take a jab
about his family, or him, but he just lets it roll off his back and
decides it's not worth causes waves and he'll stay quiet and it will
keep the peace.

The second area that WW's have in common is disrespect for the H.  In
her mind, he has failed at being the kind of man he should be.  Maybe
he has allowed his neighbor to bully him, or friends to take
advantage, or maybe he can't keep a job.  Perhaps he has mismanaged
the finances and now they are in terrible debt.  He might be the kind
of man who is full of a lot of ideas or dreams, but he never puts them
into action.  People on the outside see her husband as being a really
nice guy.  Other women even assume they must have a great MR just b/c
they see her H is so.......nice.  And she thinks to herself,
"If only they knew what I have to put up with, I bet they would change
their opinion".  She is angry and keep pushing it down in her heart,
trying to keep going.  But she loses her respect for him, little by
little.

Continued on next post.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/14/16 11:59 AM
The other area is rebellion.  It may start slowly and more subtle, or
it may break lose in a furious attack of every moral principle she
held.  B/c of the deep resentment and the disrespect she feels for
him, her attraction for him falls by the wayside.  He is not the man
she fell in love with, and the sexual desire has left.  After awhile,
she just feels empty and craves for something to fill that emptiness.
She may turn to various activities, friends, or whatever trying to
fill the unhappy void in her life.  Emotionally, she is done with her
H and the MR.  She may not realize it, or may not care, but she is in
a vulnerable state of mind..........and in fact, her entire mindset
has been changing into a direction her family will not understand, nor
will they recognize the women she becomes.   It may come subtley or
brazen, but usually something/someone is going to appeal to her and
cause her to feel alive again.  She will feel as if she is being
offered oxygen to a sufficating body.  Women will respond in various
ways, but they will respond b/c their mindset is set for rebellion.
In some cases, she may intentionally go seeking something, and then
she may act like girls gone wild.  Whatever or however, she will
display some form of rebellion against her H, her M, and anyone who
tries to stop her.  If her friends don't like it, then she drops them
and finds new friends.  Usually, the new friend(s) will be divorced,
maybe in an A themselves, hitting the bar/party scene, while leaving
their kids at home with the H.....or whoever will keep them.  She will
forsake her parents, kids, religion, career, marriage, and every
principle she ever held dear....if they interfere with her new
lifestyle.  If she doesn't get her way, she will react in fury,
hatefulness, pouting, craying, throwing a fit, on & on.  She acts
worse than any melodramatic teenager imaginable.  She has turned into
a selfish monster that nobody recognizes, least of all, her husband.

Okay, so back to the question of what should a nice-guy husband do
with a wayward wife.  These three areas I have described are the
enemies.  He needs to bear in mind that that is the source of her
waywardness, and he is not going to nice her out of it.  He is not
going to persuade her to give him another chance to prove how great he
can be.  She is done, over, and out of the MR.  She will not hear a
single word he says, as long as she has no respect for him.  I don't
think LBH's truly get it, b/c they have this idea that they need to
show the WW more love.  WHAT??  Read my lips........she does not want
you showing her how much you love her!  At this point, that's the last
thing she wants.  He needs to understand he is dealing with a
different creature.  Unless a woman has experienced being wayward
herself, or a man has gone through the hell of having a wife who is
wayward.....I honestly don't know if other people realize that the
general advice someone gives for a troubled MR, simply doesn't work
when it involves a wayward.  The WW has a different mindset, and it is
dark and very unattractive.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/14/16 12:02 PM
So, the nice-guy LBH can forget about showing more love to his WW.
Until he has her respect, he will never have her love.  At least, not
the kind of love a woman has for the man she adores and wants his body
and heart.  I think that's what most red-blooded men really want in a
woman, isn't it?  Does he really want to settle for just a friendship
for the rest of his life?  These guys buy into some kind of fantasy
that if they become her BFF, she'll eventually fall back in love with
him.  I know that is what the DB coaches recommend, and I try to be
respectful to them.  I just respectfully disagree when it is dealing
with a wayward.  I can agree, in most cases,  if the
woman is not wayward, let me make that clear.  B/c when the
woman is wayward, you have a different creature from any other, and
are dealing with .......well, to put it bluntly.......sin.  Therefore,
he needs to stop being this soft, passive, nice guy.  He needs to
start showing strength, tough love, decisiveness, assertiveness, and
firmness.  He has to deal with the WW, much like he would a defiant
teenager, only it's more difficult b/c he can't punish his WW.
However, there are other things he can do.

The LBH of a WW must, MUST, let go of the fear of a separation or
divorce.  I know all the arguments.  I don't disagree.  I am just
telling you that I have read countless threads since 2007 of men who
are scared sh'tless that their WW may leave the M.  It paralyzes him
from taking the assertive action required, and in most cases, he's
already a nice-guy type....so to think he is going to start applying
tough love may be stretching the imagination.  I will say this much
about the fear, and I have have not been in the shoes of the LBS.  I
have had to face things in my life, afraid.  Some things, the fear is
not going to subside.  As one evangelist says, "Do it afraid".  But do
it!  Listen, the WW has a keener sense of smell than a hound dog.  She
can smell fear in her LBH.  Do you want to know how it affects her?
It disgusts her.  I could get more graphic, but I won't.

The LBH of a WW needs to be as solid as he can be, so he needs support
from reliable sources.  He can see his spiritual leader, a counselor,
get meds for sleep and/or depression, etc.  He has to be centered on
taking care of himself, or he can't hold up physically or emotionally.
This will be the toughest ordeal he has had to face, and just like in
the military, he has to be in shape and ready to face the enemy.

He will experience different levels of emotions.  He will have bad
days, and then out of the blue have a good day, for no apparent
reason.  He doesn't need to try and analyze everything.  It's going to
happen, so expect it.

He needs to decide his boundaries.  A lot of people have no idea what
their boundaries are, or even what it means to enforce boundaries.  It
is one of the links in the post Cadet gives newcomers.  He needs to
study it.  Decide what principles he can not live without having these
honored in his life.  Decide what he will not tolerate in his life.
Boundaries are not to be used to police the other person's life.  It
is to protect him.  If the other person crosses that line he has
around him for protection, then it is a direct attack on him.  It may
be rather subtle, or it may be daring.....but they have crossed the
line.  Now, what will he do about it?  Slug it out?  No, I don't mean
anything physical.  What else can he do?  If he cannot control the
actions of the other person, then that just leaves him doing the
action.  Here's the catch......if his action does not cause some type
of consequence for the other person, then it is not an effective
boundary.  And an ineffective boundary is no boundary at all.  He
needs to know, in advance, what his actions will be, if his boundary
is dishonored........then by all means, know he can carry it through.
He should never make some brave statement and then back away when
tested.  B/c believe me, the WW is going to test those boundaries, so
he needs to suit up his armor every single day.

He should read anything he can find about WW's, b/c he cannot afford
to be caught unguarded.  I have read more posts from LBH'S who say
they were caught with their guard down.  Know this now, she is going
to use her feminine wiles to manipulate the LBH.   Most guys melt the
first time the WW just smiles or acts a little nice to him.  Come on!
Really?  He thinks she's having second thoughts?  No way!  She is
manipulating him, and she knows just what to do to get him around her
little finger.  He may not see what she's up to right that minute, but
usually within a day or so, she'll hit him up for something.  He needs
never to forget that selfishness motivates the WW.  It is all about
her, period.  If he will look closely in everything she does, he can
probably see how she benefited in some way.....or at least tried.

He needs to be prepared at all times for her to test him.  When he
least expects it, she will do something that messes with his head.  He
immediately wants to believe she's reaching out to him and that he
needs to do "the right thing" and respond to her.  Nope!  It's a test.
One thing to look for is her emotions.  Is she crying?  Is she feeling
down on herself and he feels he needs to encourage her?  Is she having
a pity a party and wants him to comfort her?  Is she lonesome and
needs someone to listen to her long one-sided conversation?  Is she
suddenly acting playful, flirty, or even trying to seduce him?  For
gosh sakes he better not fall for any of that stuff.  This is not a WW
reaching out, having a change of heart, or any of the things he wants
to read into it.  Two things, she is either giving him an emotional
temperature check to see if she's still in charge of the relationship,
or she is just getting her kicks cause she knows she can.  Yes, well I
told you her heart was dark.

Continued on next post.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/14/16 12:20 PM
How does he get her respect?  Well, it's not by being a softie.  He
has to stop all her open show of disrespect for him, especially in
front of his children.  Sadly, so many men have lived in it so long
that they are conditioned to it.  They don't even realize she is
disrespecting him.  Some signs may be her showing a lack of
impatience.......taking long sighs, tapping her foot and/or putting
her hands on her hips & looking disgusted, rolling her eyes, speaking
with a disgusted or impatient tone of voice, talking to him as if he
was one of the kids, speaking to him indirectly through the kids,
making fun of him in a disrespectful manner, making verbal jabs at him
in front of others, a total lack of consideration, rudeness, saying
rude things to the children about him in his presence....or behind his
back, any kind of slurs, on & on.....the list is almost endless.
These are things he can, and should, call her out.  In other words,
instead of ignoring it, like he has made a habit of doing......he
needs to confront her immediately about her show of disrespect.  He
may not be able to help how she feels about him....but by God's help,
he can do something about her showing disrespect.  And, I
cannot stress enough how important it is to stop her from showing this
behavior in front of his children.  It is teaches them to disrespect
their father, and he loses credibility.

Now, he needs to understand that she has carried his balls around for
a long time.  She is not going to meekly hand them over to him the
first time he calls her out on her disrespectful behavior.  (and, btw,
he needs to take one at a time as it come, instead of trying to cover
everything she has ever done.  She'll get the idea.).  Anyway, back to
getting his balls away from her.  It will take more than one time for
him.  She is going to try him over and over, to see if she can either
out do him or to slide by without him calling her out.  Just like a
kid!  It's rediculous, but it's true.  Even women who aren't
completely wayward will do that much!

It is important that the H understands that he needs to handle these
smaller sized showing of disrespect, before he can expect her to do
much with the larger ones......like having an affair.  I don't recall
reading about that anywhere, so it may be debatable.  I just don't
think he will have much authority over the bigger issues if he has no
authority over the smaller ones.  Therefore, if his WW is in an
affair, I don't believe she's going to end it out of respect for
him.........b/c she has none.  He will have to show her he means
business. And this where he has to do it, even if he is afraid......or
else prepare to have a very miserable life.

I believe every LBH has to be ready to leave the M.  I know, I
know.....I can hear all the protests now.  I said he has to be ready,
b/c otherwise, he is going to wait too long.  He will cling to every
excuse in the book.  Usually, it's what it will do to the kids.  Okay,
at the risk of sounding like the worst human on earth, I'm not buying
it from all these men.  That's not to say they are not good, caring,
loving fathers.  I just think for the most part, it is a good excuse.
It sound justified for a man to sacrifice his entire life for his
children, right? I mean, what Christian minded person would find fault
with his reasoning?  Me.  I would.  When I see all the rest of it, and
he is scared of his own shadow and can't go poop without asking his W
if it's okay.....yeah, I think it is cowardly.  I think he uses his
own kids to cover up the fact he has no balls.  He is too scared to
stand up to his own wife, and that is why she the b'tch from hades.
That is why he is going through this mess is b/c he has not been the
man he should have been.  "Oh, you are blaming her affair on the H".
No, I am blaming him for being a nice-guy who gave his balls to his
wife.  Now he wears the dresses and she wears the pants with his balls
attached.

I won't say every single man that has a wayward wife is cowardly.  I
have met some men on this board throughout the years that I respect
very much, and I never saw them as being like those I described in the
previous paragraph.  I saw some who I liked and wanted to shake them
for giving too many warnings or waiting too long to shift into an
asertive gear, but they still had all their male parts.....from what I
could observe.    :). So, I don't want anyone to think I having a
man-bashing day where I just let them all have a piece of my mind.  I
actually like men a lot, and had rather work with them any day of the
week before dealing a some of female co-workers I had.......but,
that's another story.

Let me close this part by saying that There are some women who leave
the M due to giving up, out of discouragement, loss of connection,
etc.  Perhaps the H neglected her to the point she no longer wants to
stay with him. Perhaps he has nothing at all, but she has other issues.
 And of course, there are WAW's who come from abusive
R's, and other issues I could name, but the point I'm making is that
these woman may not have a wayward heart.  Just b/c they left the MR,
does not mean their heart has gone bad.  That was my point in dividing
the wayward wife from the walk-away wife.

Let me see if I can say something encouraging, after all that other stuff. It is not impossible for the WW to turn back. If you understand repentance, you can understand there is hope for a WW. People thought I was a good woman. My H thought I was, too. I would like to think my heart was not that of a bad person, however, little by little I succumbed to things I should not have done. I hurt those I loved the most, and it will always be something I cannot go back and undo. I know I have been forgiven, but I still struggle at times, knowing I let my family down. I am hoping that I can say something to help one of you realize a little more about the mindset of a WW. It may be dark, cruel, and selfish......but it can be changed under the right conditions. You men have to be use tough love if you want to save her and save your family. Even if she returns home, she won't truly love you if she doesn't respect you as a man.
Posted By: Zephyr Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/14/16 12:37 PM
Sandi, this is amazing as usual!

I have seen women, inclding my own wife practically challenging thier husband to be assertive, without any consequence.

I recall a time a year ago, my wife going out on a shoping apree not a week agter we talked about cutting back on superfluous spending. She called me and said something like, 'i am so bad' basically saying what are you going to do about it, smile and nod like usual?

My reaction was not strong. Part of it was me thinking that i didnt want to control her the other was fear that i would make her angry. No consequense.

Not the Marlboro Man. There is a pretty obscene word to desribe a man who doesnt act strong like he should and that had been me for a really long time, letting wife run ramshod over me.

Thank you for your posts sandi!
Posted By: pinn Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/14/16 12:42 PM
Thanks Sandi! This is much better than having to search through all the threads for your words of wisdom. Now everything is condensed right here! After reading through your words, I have two questions:

1. You talk about the temp checking and how that is all it is and the LBH cannot fall for it. How do you tell the difference between temp checking and something more than that?

2. You mention a few times that the LBH has to be ready to leave the marriage. But what does that mean exactly? Are you suggesting the LBH should push things along (I don't think you are)? So how does the LBH show that?

I lot that you post rings true with my WW, at least from what I have seen. Thanks for the post :-).
Posted By: Tyler12 Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/14/16 12:57 PM
Your posts are always informative and help me get a better grasp in what I need to do with myself. Thank you Sandi.

My question is how does one enforce some boundaries when S is no longer in the same house or even town?

In my thread I talked about it earlier in more detail but I don't appreciate OM being involved in my kids lives. I tell her I don't like it however I don't believe it will stop it
Posted By: brutus3 Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/14/16 12:58 PM
Originally Posted By: pinn


2. You mention a few times that the LBH has to be ready to leave the marriage. But what does that mean exactly? Are you suggesting the LBH should push things along (I don't think you are)? So how does the LBH show that?



I think she means that you have to be able to move on from the marriage and know that you will be okay. You have to be able to feel it in your heart. You can't fake it because the WW will know. It'll probably show in your actions. Once you GAL, find yourself, and love yourself, you might be able to pull it off. Your perception of your wife will change too, she'll change from a radiant goddess into a diseased rat. Sometimes I'm in that frame of mind now that I'm away from her and I see her from a distance.

Originally Posted By: Tyler12

My question is how does one enforce some boundaries when S is no longer in the same house or even town?

In my thread I talked about it earlier in more detail but I don't appreciate OM being involved in my kids lives. I tell her I don't like it however I don't believe it will stop it


Maybe if you contacted the OM? I've done that before to the point it drove one of them away but you might want to be careful. My wife used the argument that I was controlling her. Just another reason for her to leave the marriage.

In regards to enforcing boundaries while out of the house: my wife recently asked me to dinner one night and I accepted. Turned into a nightmare and told her I needed space from then on. That we couldn't hang out like friends anymore.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/14/16 02:36 PM
Oh, thank you......all of you. I wasn't sure how this would be received, but like I said, I want to help someone learn from the mistakes my M has made, and from I have observed in others.

Quote:
2. You mention a few times that the LBH has to be ready to leave the marriage. But what does that mean exactly? Are you suggesting the LBH should push things along (I don't think you are)? So how does the LBH show that?


OMG, let me answer this one first, b/c I may have totally forgotten to get back to why I said the H needed to be ready to leave the M.

It is the attitude or state of mind he has to have, when dealing with a WW situation. I don't mean he necessarily runs out and files for a D. However, he should not be afraid to do it. I would suggest that before he filed, that he separate from her, to show her he means business. Even if he just left to go somewhere else for a few days, she won't know what he's planning to do........which is good, she needs to worry. Every single WW that I have seen come and go on this board has said that it took her seeing that her H was done with her, before she woke up. She has to believe she could lose him. When he dropped her, instead of clinging to her and pleading that she won't leave. That's when it hits her. As long as he is clinging to her, she knows she has him and isn't losing him.

It is all related to his fear of his M failing, or of his W leaving him. The fear holds him back from being as assertive as he needs to be. He is afraid if he goes too far, then she'll leave or file for divorce. So, he ends up catering to her, mostly. IMO, he has to make up his mind that if it means the M is over in order for her to start acting like a respectful W (notice I did not say loving, but respectful), then so be it. He is not going to live with anyone who does not show him respect, or subject his children to that disrespect of their father, who is suppose to be the head of the home.

This is especially true when it comes to enforcing his boundaries. If he is scared of what she may do, how effectively do you think he'll be in enforcing his boundaries? She smells the fear in him. And b/c she can smell his fear, she will dare him to stick to his word. That is why I have recently started cautioning men about stating how they will not live in an open M........if they are not ready to walk out the door. She is going to dare him. As if to say, "Let's just see how serious you really are".

It's kind of like when kids are pushing us to see if we really mean what we say. As a parent and grandmother, I have never believed in telling my kids to do, or not do, anything but one time (being sure they hear me, of course). I don't believe in this telling a kid they better mind me by the time I count to three. B/c guess what? It becomes a game to them, and they will make the idiot parent count off to three before the kid moves. I have seen parent say, "One, two, .....two and a half, two and three-fourths........". What!? And the kid is standing there with a big grin on his face b/c it's all a game to him. Makes me want to get my hands on the parent!!

A wayward wife is much like that kid. That's why giving her a certain amount of time to decide what she wants, never works. She will wait until the midnight hour of the last day and then call crying and saying she just needs a little more time. So, the H starts saying, "Two, two and a half". He just can't play those kind of games. He lays it out once, and if she doesn't comply, he packs her stuff and leaves outside, or he leaves. Of course, without going into details, he always need to check his legal standing before leaving. I know men have been leaving for many, many years, and they still get to have their kids, but check anyway.

Probably said too much trying to answer your question, but if still not clear, please tell me, b/c I don't mind expounding further. And thanks for bringing it to my attention.

Quote:
1. You talk about the temp checking and how that is all it is and the LBH cannot fall for it. How do you tell the difference between temp checking and something more than that?


WW's can be very emotional, b/c they are guided by those emotions.......and her emotions are all out of whack. Anyway, it is no problem at all for a WW to turn on the tears, especially when it's about her. Some men think this means something else, and they can be influenced by the WW, due to the man feeling sorry for her. If nobody died, don't feel sorry for her! She has to suffer the consequences of her decision, and usually, she's crying b/c she doesn't like those consequences. I think tears runs close to number one on the list of ways a WW can sucker the LBH.

However, I give the blue ribbon prize of tricks to the category of sex. It takes a wise and strong man to withstand some of the temptations of his naughty WW. I mean, she treats him like a bag of sh't, and the first time she parades around partially dressed, he crumbles? Come on! And I have actually seen men say, "What can I say, I'm a guy.....ha-ha". That's not funny, it's pathetic! Listen, I have read more than one account where a couple were separated b/c she was sleeping with another man and would not end it. Then suddenly, surprise, surprise....she shows up unexpected late one night.....falls into the arms of her LBH crying and blubbering some sob story. Then, surprise, surprise, a little kissing starts.......and you can guess the rest. And each and every story like this has the same thing to happen.......the very next day, when the LBH is thinking there has been a wonderful development......low and behold, the WW is cold as an iceberg. Then she's right back to the OM. Yeah, the H got played. The vets use to warn newcomers over and over, and they would fall for it every time. All the WW wanted (no matter her sob story) was to see if the H was still in the palm of her little hand. The H needs to make her WORK to get him back, and one night of sex isn't work for her. Work for her is getting her heart right, ending her wayward ways, start showing respect and devotion to her H & family, behaving like a decent woman, and apologize with a broken heart for everything she has done to her H and the destruction she's caused. That's the real work. And trust me, it is not sudden. It is not going to be one of these overnight things. Coming out of waywardness is not a quickie for most women. It is painful, and part of her pain should be remorse she feels, not some self-centered pity party she's having.

Let me add one more, that seems to throw men. It is when the WW suddenly starts acting nice. I think if the LBH'S would just be leery of anything she does "suddenly", he would be on safer ground. If she has been horrible to him, and suddenly changes her mood and starts acting as if she's doing something for him.........look out. Everything is selfishly motivated, so she's doing nothing more than setting him up for the kill (whatever the kill might be).

Here's the thing, if the WW is earnest in wanting to make things right with her H, and if her heart is in the right place, her attitude will tell the story. She will be humbled. Her tone of voice will be softer and more tender. She may be broken, and show it, but if she's real......I think her H surely would be able to see it. If she's broken and humble, She won't feel she deserves another chance or that she deserves to have her H. She will be willing to do ANYTHING her H wants, in order to reconcile with him. If he sees anything less, she's just playing. Now understand, she doesn't have to feel the desire or loving feelings for him, to reconcile. However, she doesn't get to Kay down the stipulations. He does. And one of those stipulations is that she will sleep in the same bed with him. He won't have sex with her right away, and he will be be patience to a degree, but there will be no separate bedrooms. This stuff takes time, too. He can't expect her to feel everything for him overnight. I really don't trust a WW who cliams she does. But she has to be respectful, and willing....to be willing to do what is necessary to save the M and heal back the relationship.

Sorry if I use too many words to answer.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/14/16 02:49 PM
Unfortunately, the LBH is limited when she is not living in the same house. I mean, once she is out from under his roof, she can pretty much do whatever she wants. If she's in an affair, she is dishonoring and disrespecting him, but they are already separated, so what else is there to do but maybe divorce.

I am sympathetic to parents who do not want their children around the affair partner. As a grandparent, I have had the sorrow of facing that situation, and it was hard. Unless the law says she cannot sleep with him while the minors are in the house, I don't know what the H could do about it. He might check to see what it would take to get a R.O. Someone else who has had experience in that area may be more helpful.

The sad truth is that once the couple separates, boundaries seldom come into the picture. The H can hold her feet to the fire about child care/visitation, and things of that sort. B/c she will take advantage if she thinks she can get away with it. He mainly needs to have something legal stating the days, etc., otherwise, it's just a source of argument.
Posted By: Tyler12 Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/14/16 03:03 PM
Thanks for the response Sandi. It definitely seems like there is not much I can do with her out of house. So what I am going to do is be the best dad I can to the kids. And be the best man I can be. If she sees it great. If not I can't care.

I do want to ask about if WW comes back. You said a stipulation would be to share a bed right off the bat? I can see positives and negatives from that. Not that I am expecting her back any time.
Posted By: AU Bob Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/14/16 03:43 PM
Hi Sandi

Unfortunately, the LBH is limited when she is not living in the same house. I mean, once she is out from under his roof, she can pretty much do whatever she wants. If she's in an affair, she is dishonoring and disrespecting him, but they are already separated, so what else is there to do but maybe divorce.

What advice do you give for us in this sitch. My wife left 9 months ago but checked out long before that.
Do you think divorce is the only way to go?
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/14/16 04:41 PM
Quote:
I do want to ask about if WW comes back. You said a stipulation would be to share a bed right off the bat? I can see positives and negatives from that. Not that I am expecting her back any time.


Yes, but again, this is not to say he should expect her to desire sex him right off the bat. I don't think he should push for that part right away. However, he should require her to share the same bed and present the opportunity for emotional intimacy with each other, so they will gradually work toward having the sexual intimacy.

The reason I said she shouldn't be the one to lay down stipulations is b/c first, she really is not, or should not, be in the position of giving him any stipulations. He is a fool if he allows her to do so. And the second reason I said this is b/c I have actually seen men here on the board, who let the WW come back on her terms, and she took a separate bedroom, and from that point on, they were never like husband & wife again. They shared the same house, and that was all. They were, at best, friends. So, if want you want to see a passive man who lets his WW rule the roost, just let that happen and you've got it. You will die from a lonely and unhappy life. Some people think not having their spouse in the house with them is lonely, and I say not having your spouse ever in bed with you, makes for a lonely, unhappy extensistence. If there is no physical issue that causes the couple to need separate rooms, they need to be together in the same bedroom.
Posted By: rich4j Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/14/16 05:49 PM
Sandi2

I read the posts and thank you for putting this down. I do relate to at least one of the scenarios probably 2 .....

Quick Q as I just re-read DR book about the WAW. And trying to read the definitions again as i may be just confusing things.

Is the WW one who has "cheated" versus the WAW who just has said "I am done'?

I know i am simplifying the above. I have not figured out if my STBX was a WAW who drifted to a WW or I was just blind anyway.

My sitch with the impending divorce once the L's get their act together has required me to be alot tougher and set boundries. As well as the last resort technique which I have failed at and am re-reading
Posted By: brutus3 Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/14/16 06:43 PM
Sandi2 makes an interesting point about separation. Once my wife left the MB, I never felt more alone in my life. When I moved out, oddly enough, I felt less lonely. Once I found out about the 2nd guy, it gave me some control of the situation. However, I knew it opened the door for her to do whatever she wanted and I accepted that risk. But I knew I was only postponing the inevitable if I didn't leave. If we stayed together under the same roof, it would eventually go so uncomfortable that life would become unbearable.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/14/16 08:11 PM
Quote:
What advice do you give for us in this sitch. My wife left 9 months ago but checked out long before that.
Do you think divorce is the only way to go?


As far as boundaries, they are rather limited once she move out of his house. I would say to make her stick to the agreed child care/visitation scheduled, agreed vacations and holidays, and when she pulls her little tricks of being half a day late getting them or cheating you out of your full vacation or special holiday with the kids......you carry her a$$ to court and make her stick by the order.

Don't allow her to intrude on your time and or guilt you into baby sitting while she goes out GAL. Things like that are about all you can do. You can mainly drop the rope and leave her alone. No communication unless absolutely about child related and nothing else. Perhaps if she sees you are really done with her (and that's what she needs to believe) then she may start pursuing you.

But boundaries work better when you have a WW living under the same roof as you.
Posted By: Vanilla Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/14/16 10:11 PM
Sandi

My WH was abusive and drank heavily. Sex was sometimes forceful and unwelcoming, I left the MBR to protect myself.

Actually I don't care how lonely he was, I was not going to sleep with a heavy drinker.

Mind you I am not wayward, he was.

V
Posted By: ATPeace Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/14/16 11:29 PM
So much of what you write relates to me and to my sitch....I still do not know fully if my W is a WW because of her behaviour and her attitude towards me or whether she is really still just a WAW.

I know on my signature I put down possible EA however is this just my own insecurity and her playing on Facebook and awful lot I am not able to look at her iPad or iPhone as that would be seen as snooping

I know right now my wife has zero respect for me and mostly all the things I do just makes her angry or upset ....she tells me when we talk that all she ever wanted was equality and for me to do my share and I feel this is still what she wants but no matter what I do it is still not enough and with this in mind ...no matter what you do it will not be enough and as sandi points out she will just expect more and more from you .

Please listen to sandi she knows her stuff this thread has so much valuable information within it.

Much love
Ghost
Posted By: Si_07 Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/15/16 04:59 AM
Hi Sandi, thank you putting this together.

One question I had for you.

I had read before somewhere that LBH should not fear separation, I have 2 weeks left before she is due to move out and am looking forward to some peace. I was wondering if you could expand on this thought or does it follow along the lines of not fearing the end of the M? Is it to do with the losses you mention that need to happen within her? I do expect the time without the kids to be a reality kick for her.

I have found out from a friend who told me that my W feels very angry, something I most definitely agree with, and needs her own space to deal with it. Now I also believe my W stories can be varies depending on who she talks to so I do take what she says with a grain of salt.
Posted By: Cadet Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/15/16 07:47 AM
Originally Posted By: sandi2
I am not going as far to say that every LBH who has a WW is the nice-guy type of man. I do get amazed in how many I see on the board that usually have those nice-guy traits. In all fairness to men across the board and over the years, i have definitely seen a few who were not considered the nice-guy type........they just had a WW.

I saw you start this thread yesterday however was on my phone and wanted to respond from my computer and read it all in detail.

Why are men NICE GUYS?

Answer:
We are raised mostly by our mothers, have teachers who are mostly woman, may have fears of abandonment, possibly some sort of shame that we are some how responsible for being abandoned.
We were raised in the post Vietnam war era/ World War 2 parents.

I know in my case my father was a "NICE GUY" who was raised by his mother.
So much of what I learned to be a male came from my nice guy father.
So he was a conflict avoidant,co-dependent, enabling personality, so of course was I.
Of course as stated above - mothers and teachers also have some responsibility in this trait.

So I agree that nearly everyone on these boards can fall into some category here.
And of course another question is how do we keep our children and grand children from falling into the same trap?

Anyways great posts sandi2, thanks for all you do.
I will likely link this thread in with your others so it can be used as a resource in the future along with the others.

Posted By: mrx2030 Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/15/16 08:08 AM
Sandi, thanks for the advice and the post you have done, I have one last question before I stop posting on this board.

My wife of over 15yrs has had an EA of over 2yrs according to her. She agreed to MC we went whe she was ask to give up EA she refused and said that she was just there for me so Maybe I would realize it was over. Last Saturday we talked
She said could I still be friends with OM and I said No.
She wants an monthly allowance, she wants to get a career so she can be independent while she lives in our house and wants me to be her best friend not her H. I said okay we can start being friends and all the other stuff but you need to give up EA, she is not willing to do that. I told her that I couldn't do it anymore living in the same house being a family while she still engaged with the OM.
She will stay at the house until the kids get out of school. I care sh..less of how I will take care of the kids, had a hyperventilation attack yesterday.
My question is since you have live through this, Did I do the right thing? It might be to late now but shoulded I just continue being passive like the DB couch said I don't think my couch realized how deep my wife EA is, she is going by the books that EA only last 9 months it's been two years.
Any who, I would really value your opinion.
Thanks.
Posted By: TimR Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/15/16 08:23 AM
Thank you for the post Sandi!

I can see myself and my W in many of your situations that you describe. I am the LBH who reads into and analyzes everything, "ooo she was nice to me today!" "what does that mean?" "ugh she was mean today, what does that mean?"

In my own situation I am doing my best to detach and set boundaries. Since we are living under different roofs, how do I know if cutting off all contact with W is the most appropriate thing to do? Currently in my boundaries, I will answer texts if they are about the kids. If not I will answer some but not all. Also, with phone calls I will answer some calls but will ignore others. Is this the right thing to do? After all if she is being is becoming remorseful and wants to reconcile, how would I know if I completely cut off all communication?

Wedding rings?? She took hers off at least a month ago, I still wear mine? I took hers back when I discovered the A, which enraged her. Should I be or no?
Posted By: roist Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/15/16 08:32 AM
Yet another great thread Sandi. Thanks

Cadet, throughout my situation I have thought about what I can and should teach my sons. They are still young so I have time. I have every intention of using what I have learned to improve me, to also guide them. This is not the topic of this thread but I wanted to highlight it as an important point.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/15/16 10:56 AM
Quote:
Quick Q as I just re-read DR book about the WAW. And trying to read the definitions again as i may be just confusing things.

Is the WW one who has "cheated" versus the WAW who just has said "I am done'?

I know i am simplifying the above. I have not figured out if my STBX was a WAW who drifted to a WW or I was just blind anyway.

My sitch with the impending divorce once the L's get their act together has required me to be alot tougher and set boundries. As well as the last resort technique which I have failed at and am re-reading


Thank you for bringing this up, Rich. Let me clear about the "terms" or "definitions". I am not trying to superimpose anything on what MWD writes, b/c after all, she influenced me in staying in my M. I started using the wayward wife term, and did not suggest that anyone else adopt it......and MWD did not use that particular definition in her book. I said "I" started using the WW term, but people who were on the board when I arrived (such as Puppy Dog Tails, who later was known as Starsky) used that term.......and b/c I was a WW, I hated it. I would bristle every time I read one of their posts. Anyway, as the years passed here on the board, I could see some great advice being given to LBH'S....only I knew that advice would not work on a wayward. If she was not wayward....then, yes, it would have probably worked. I continued to see failure and frustrations in the H's who kept trying to bend over backward trying to become what his W said she wanted.....only for the W to treat him worse and worse. That's b/c the real issue was not being addressed. The real issue was not her complaints about him, but rather, her waywardness.

I think what really made me decide to start writing about the difference in a WAW and a WW, was when Vanilla came to the board. (I had seen other women in the past who referred to themselves as the WAW, but who did not have wayward behavior). Vanilla referred to herself as a WAW b/c she had left her abusive H. However, the first time I read one post from her, just one, I knew this sweet, classy lady did not have the heart of a typical WW. It bothered be me a great deal that she was putting herself into the same category, and trying to apply advice that perhaps was not pertinent to her situation. Eventually, I decided to express my opinions and observations of the differences in a wayward wife, from one who had walked away from a M....without having waywardness of the heart.

Waywardness is a word not used very much these days. The wayward lifestyle has become almost commonplace in our world. And why not? When it is accepted and even encouraged by movements like women's lib, and by movies and books. I was a young woman when women's lib first started, and now I have lived long enough to see it's devestating results. Do not misunderstand, I am all for equal pay and those type things, but I am talking about the moral decay that seems to have been rooted from those types of encouragements.

Sorry, getting too long winded again. Getting back to your question about the cheater. If a spouse has cheated, then I would say that defines them as wayward. I will go further and say that there are other things, and not just infidelity alone, that I personally believe would classify a person as wayward. The Bible refers to a wayward wife as being disobedient (that should boil blood of some women's libbers grin). Hey, I don't like it either b/c I am a very independent gal, and would not like the idea of "obeying" my H! Actually, it means to go against him and the boundaries of marriage. To act as if she is not a married woman. To act as if she is not his W, or that she respects him and her M vows. To be resistant and to rebell in mind, attitude, and behavior.

IMO, a Wife is wayward when she is overtly disrespectful to her spouse, and engages in acts that she knows are unacceptable for a wife and mother. When she is riotious. When she willfully does things unbecoming of a married woman (Any type of inappropriate Internet or phone activity; bar hopping; flirting and sexting with men; wild partying; coming home in the wee hours of the morning; spending nights away from home with a "friend"; acting like a rebellious teenager who goes against morality, tradition, and conforming to the role of respected, loving, devoted wife & mother). She may do these things without actually having sex with a man, but usually sex of some kind is involved. These are usually the prelude to sexual hookups. I did not actually have physical sex with the OM, but what I did was indecent. And yes, it was cheating. I was very wayward. Perhaps I was not as bad as some others, maybe I was worse than some. The overt behavior stems from what is in the heart. I believe any type of an A is cheating.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/15/16 11:04 AM
Quote:

What advice do you give for us in this sitch. My wife left 9 months ago but checked out long before that.
Do you think divorce is the only way to go?


Hi Bob, before divorce, I would advise the H to drop the rope and act as if they are already D. Go as dark as possible. The divorce papers just makes it legal, however, she should get a taste of how it will be.
Posted By: daybyday Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/15/16 11:41 AM
Great stuff Sandi. Thanks for such depth. Wouldn't alot of this apply to WAW also? I mean even though WAW may not have acted I would bet that most have thought about affairs and that would be a prompt for wanting out. So for us H's waiting for them to come around, they could be playing us just like WW do. I guess GAL is as much about gaining your respect for yourself as it is for WAW or WW respecting you. But you TRULY have to GAL for yourself and NOT to win back spouse. That is very difficult.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/15/16 11:44 AM
Quote:
I had read before somewhere that LBH should not fear separation, I have 2 weeks left before she is due to move out and am looking forward to some peace. I was wondering if you could expand on this thought or does it follow along the lines of not fearing the end of the M? Is it to do with the losses you mention that need to happen within her? I do expect the time without the kids to be a reality kick for her.


I do not think the H should try to stop her from leaving. He should not try to persuad her stay. Just let her go, and do not break down in front of her. Go somewhere she can't hear you, if must cry. It is important that you have a presence of inner strength. I don't mean that you act angry, sullen, rude or moody. None of those things imply strength.
If you think you cannot hold it together, it might be best to take the kids and go do something while she moves out. Some H's help their W move, but I have some mixed feelings about it.

She does have to experience consequences that come from her decisions. As long as her H is there to soften the way, clean up her mess, pay for what she needs, fix her little problems...........how quickly do you see her getting her eyes open to the reality of what she's done?

During the separation period, I believe the H should pull all the way back. This is not the time to pursue her and try convincing her to reconcile. Remember, I am talking about a WAYWARD wife here. The only interaction should be child related, until she can approach him in the manner I spoke about in the early part of this thread.

It is like when you have an almost grown child, there comes a time the parent has to stand back and allow him/her to learn from their personal choices and decisions. Consequences can be a cruel teacher........but oh so very effective. The LBH who is separated from his WW needs to be like that parent and stand back and let her learn. I have seen some people accuse H's of wanting to punish their WW. This is not about vindictiveness, revenge, punishment, or anything along those lines. It is about removing yourself from her life, as much as possible, in order for life to teach her. (If she was not wayward, the advice would not be the same).

If the H's fear causes him to do the opposite of what I've just said, the separation will be pretty much useless and a prelude to D. However, if during the S period, if he will let her get a taste of what D would be.......it could be an effective step to reconciling.

Quote:
I have found out from a friend who told me that my W feels very angry, something I most definitely agree with, and needs her own space to deal with it. Now I also believe my W stories can be varies depending on who she talks to so I do take what she says with a grain of salt
.

The anger is probably the resentment coming out. Most WW's are very angry at their LBH. Having a cooling off period could be helpful. I think too many H's keep the WW in the home too long and her anger gets worse by the day. I know we normally recommend that the LBS not move out, but there have been some cases that I really encouraged getting away from the WS. I think it causes more damage to stay in a close vicinity with an angry WS for a long time.
Posted By: cubebot Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/15/16 01:53 PM
Hi Sandi,

Thank you for being brutally honest. I think I fall into this category of Mr. Nice guy in a lot of ways and not wanting to do anything hoping it will get better. With a WW I have learned it only continues and they will only push further. I believe that she doesn't have respect for me and that is ultimately necessary if there will ever be an R and also even if we only end up co-parenting.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/15/16 02:05 PM
Thank you, Cadet, for the following post. I agree 100% about the Vietnam post war generation and being raised by mothers. Those mothers of that era were influenced by the women's liberation movement and other rebellious things going on our country.

Quote:
Why are men NICE GUYS?

Answer:
We are raised mostly by our mothers, have teachers who are mostly woman, may have fears of abandonment, possibly some sort of shame that we are some how responsible for being abandoned.
We were raised in the post Vietnam war era/ World War 2 parents.

I know in my case my father was a "NICE GUY" who was raised by his mother.
So much of what I learned to be a male came from my nice guy father.
So he was a conflict avoidant,co-dependent, enabling personality, so of course was I.
Of course as stated above - mothers and teachers also have some responsibility in this trait.

So I agree that nearly everyone on these boards can fall into some category here.
And of course another question is how do we keep our children and grand children from falling into the same trap?

Anyways great posts sandi2, thanks for all you do.
I will likely link this thread in with your others so it can be used as a resource in the future along with the others.


Just in case anyone wonders, I like nice guys. Everyone likes them. I married a nice guy. It's just that after I married him, then I saw the down side of him being the nice-guy "type". My father was nothing like the nice-guy. He was a WWII vet and married to a very spunky lady who happen to be my mother. Can you imagine what I could do with a quiet, soft-spoken, gentle, easy-going, likable, nice guy? He thought he was marrying a sweet, outgoing girl that was the love of his life. He soon discovered she wasn't so sweet, and her attractiveness was fading. Unfortunately, he didn't understand that I needed him to be assertive, and to speak up, and stand up to me. I, apparently, inherited my mother's spunkiness. I needed him to call me out when I didn't treat him well and was disrespectful. I needed him to put me in my place, so to speak. Instead, he grew more & more passive.

I wish I knew the answer to how to raise our sons not to be the same passive type of man. To teach him not to be afraid to stand up to his wife and tell her "no" sometimes. I use to say if I ever had a son that I was going to teach him how to treat a lady. I assumed his father would teach him other aspects of it, but oh well. We did have a son. And I taught him how to treat a lady, alright. All the females thought he was the sweetest thing since sugar. He didn't have a lot of girlfriends, b/c they would usually give him the line, "I love you like a brother". Eventually, he married a sweet girl who I think truly loved him. I never saw the passivity in my son that I saw in his dad. He was very good to his little wife, and they seemed happy for a long time. Then she started complaining about him not doing enough to help her around the house. Which turns out was just a smoke screen for the real issue. He would not tell her, "No". I think she pretty much did whatever she wanted and he could like it or lump it. Over time, the attraction for him faded and she became dissatisfied and started an affair. So, I think I have a son who has nice-guy traits. frown. I really did not detect it before he married. How much his dad's passivity and conflict avoidance, or my teaching him to treat women special affected him, IDK.

My H will always have some of his nice-guy traits which will always drive me crazy, but let me tell you something else to that story. He doesn't seem to have any problems standing up to me any more! Of course, ever since my A, I have not given him quite as much to confront me about. I watch myself and how I speak and interact with him...especially in front of others. Human nature being what it is, it's good that he no longer allows me to treat him disrespectfully. So, people can learn to change. Both of us are proof of it.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/15/16 02:58 PM
Quote:
My question is since you have live through this, Did I do the right thing? It might be to late now but shoulded I just continue being passive like the DB couch said I don't think my couch realized how deep my wife EA is, she is going by the books that EA only last 9 months it's been two years.


I think some affairs last a long time. Mine lasted longer than nine months. Honestly, it is not about the length of time they last (unless the H is just trying to out wait the affair) but what the H does during and immediately following her A. You see, when her EA stops, your MR will not be automatically healed. The A is an obstacle, but I believe it just evidence of other issues that were in the MR.

By the description of your WW, she is in complete fantasy land. She has this idea that she can keep her nice home, continue with family activities, have the OM, and you and OM will be BFF's............just one happy family. The sooner she is shocked into the reality of this situation, the better for everyone concerned.

My suggestion is not to promise her anything. Get legal advice about where you stand regarding the house, if you can leave........make her leave.......if it will affect anything in the near future, etc. If you can afford one, get a shark lawyer who doesn't pu$$yfoot around and perhaps that will help shake some sense into her. You can't let her take advantage of you in any way, hoping the A will be over soon and you'll get on with life. You have to take charge now.

Do not give her any allowance, unless the court orders you. Do not finance anything for her, unless it is court ordered. I don't think you should have told her she could remain in the home. That is her having her cake and eating it, too. I don't believe your health will tolerate staying with her under the same roof, but like I said, check with a lawyer about what to do. If you have to leave, then leave. You know what you can stand and what you can't. How in the world can live with this WW until your children have finished school? That is unrealistic.

What has she lost, due to her disrespect and EA? How concerned is she of losing you? How concerned do you think she would be with you staying with her while she continues her wayward living?

It sounds to me as if she's calling the shots in the relationship. It's time for the man to take charge of how things will go from this point forward. Stop leaving it up to whatever she says or wants. Be smart and start taking care of you and your kids. Protect your finances!

Btw, do not share information with her. At this time, your business is your business.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/15/16 04:00 PM
Just to clarify, I do you think you told her the right thing. Also, you do have to help in supporting your kids, but you don't have to enable her A by financing her lifestyle. She can get a job.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/15/16 04:32 PM
Quote:
Great stuff Sandi. Thanks for such depth. Wouldn't alot of this apply to WAW also? I mean even though WAW may not have acted I would bet that most have thought about affairs and that would be a prompt for wanting out. So for us H's waiting for them to come around, they could be playing us just like WW do. I guess GAL is as much about gaining your respect for yourself as it is for WAW or WW respecting you. But you TRULY have to GAL for yourself and NOT to win back spouse. That is very difficult.


Thank you! Yes, a lot of it would be applicable to a WAW situation, just as MWD tells in her book. The reason the W walked away would probably determine what the H would do. When I think of a woman, who has no ill intent in her heart, leaving her M behind and waking away broken hearted and defeated.........I picture a woman who is in pain and/or sees no hope in things ever getting better. There are cases where the H is just too awful to live with, and she can't take it any more. It just seems that the majority of the stories that come here involve a wayward spouse.

I also think that ocassionally there are some women who leave that are just really discouraged and believe they could be happier starting over, or whatever, that has no signs of waywardness. I think these women may few and far apart......but I believe they exist.

Whenever I think in terms of a woman "playing" her H, I see hints of a wayward wife. She may not be riotous or in an A, but she might be completely selfish, spoiled, and have a sense of entitlement. Hey, there some real b'tches who are not in affairs.

But don't confuse this with a woman who has sorrowfully given up on her H ever contributing to the MR and walks away b/c she has lost all hope. She would not be "playing" him b/c she is done with him. Her H would probably have to make some life long changes before she would be convinced they were legit. If all her attraction for him had faded, he may have to work hard and long to get that back again. However, it is what is in her heart that led her to leave him that determines if she was wayward or if she is a hurting WAW.

In my mind the two types are easy to distinguish, but that doesn't mean I am that great and explaining it the differences.
Posted By: Nate W Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/15/16 05:32 PM
I don't really consider myself the nice guy type some would say I'm an a-hole. Yes, I did kiss her a$$ after we separated for awhile but not anymore. I'm not really sure how to look at my sitch though. After all I have read I'm pretty sure when my dad got sick it triggered a MLC in me and I kind of went wayward first but by the time I came to my senses it was too late and she was going wayward. I'm not really sure what to do but definitely don't want to go down the road of the persuer again. I have just been trying to detach and let her have the divorce she felt she needed. I'm already past all the separation end the marriage stuff. It's pretty much either I will see her again or I won't.

Sandi you are awesome and damn I wish I have found this site before I was already going through it!
Posted By: mahhhty Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/15/16 06:14 PM
Thank you Sandi.

I saw a lot of myself in those posts. I think you are right about a great many things in there. In my short time on these boards, it was usually the guys who took a stand that had more success (of the top of my head... Squiggy). And I believe you outlined the reasons why.
Posted By: 1313 Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/16/16 01:43 PM
Sadly, I see an awful lot of what's happening to me here. I'm a nice guy. However, I've always defended her to friends and family, often making myself look like an idiot. But always doing nice things for her - going out of my way - which went from being totally appreciated to loathed.

Yes, the OM has a lot to do with this, but I've often felt she is doing these hateful things to help justify her actions. Because the story changed.

The "walkaway" is part of the negotiation process, don't do any deal you're not willing to walk away from. The fear of loss is what keeps people from walking away. Yet here, I'm scared to death to walk away.

My issue is that I am so cut off from my wife - no kids and communicating through lawyers - I'm not sure anything I do will be noticed by her. She strikes back at me through her assistant, as I have to beg for access to my home to get things. Even that I think I'm done with until we split the marital assets.

You're right about her being unrecognizable to her family, her Mother and Father are on my side and can't believe what she's doing. You put it into terms I would never have thought about, but I think you're spot on in your analogies.
Posted By: Wrigley Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/16/16 03:01 PM
I believe I am at that point as well. Time to take a stand. The om seems to be in and out of the picture and when he leaves my ww calls or wants to hang out with the boys and I. Then they talk and she disappears.

She came over the other day and just broke down about how depressed she is and crying all the time. We talked and went for a walk and she pretty much said she has no one else to talk to but doesn't want to lead me on.

She agreed to go to counseling and had her first appointment today with the woman I am seeing. Afterward she came over to get the boys and I could tell she wanted to linger around and talk. Told me she liked the counselor and I told her I am glad she went and left it at that. I can't be her support system. She fired me from that job. She needs to figure this out alone and in the meantime I need to detach and not talk to her and hang out with her as much as I want to.
Posted By: 1313 Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/16/16 03:29 PM
My wife had agreed to counseling for a "birthday present" after she started waving around the D word. Turns out she had no desire to work things out - only let me know she was going to move ahead with the divorce. She was however doing the "we can be friends because that's all we ever were" #$%&! stuff.

I did get angry on the last day, and say if that's what she'd doing there's no way we could be friends after 30 years of marriage. It would and does break my heart thinking of her with somebody else - much less see them together.

My problem is I'm going from deep depression to anger, and feel like telling a choice few people about this. I know it's against DB policy, but I've protected her so much for so long. And to know that everybody assumes it's my fault and I'm the one that filed for divorce is killing me. Also to know some people I thought were friends were enabling this. To think that she's still keeping it a secret from most people so she's got a comfort level, well - I'd like to take that comfort level away.

It gets complicated, doesn't it?
Posted By: Mowgli Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/17/16 12:33 PM


Originally Posted By: sandi2
By the description of your WW, she is in complete fantasy land. She has this idea that she can keep her nice home, continue with family activities, have the OM, and you and OM will be BFF's............just one happy family. The sooner she is shocked into the reality of this situation, the better for everyone concerned.


This!!!

W actually admitted to me that she thought I would just agree to pick up and move with her and the kids so that she could be with OM, and that she thought I'd actually be happy bout it!

When she said it out loud, she said " I guess I never really realized how in the fog I actually was until I just heard myself say that..."
Posted By: someguy1233 Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/17/16 01:40 PM
Wow. This has been a great read. I think I fall into this nice guy category. W and I have had many issues over the last 10 years, lots of on/off periods and her having an A. Each time I’d take her back with open arms.

The difference this time is I’m actually thinking about D myself.

My question is this… how do I put my foot down? Her latest complaints are that I don’t care for her enough. I don’t help with the kids enough. I don’t make sure she’s cared for. My initial thought was to 180 this and “win her over.” But after reading this thread I second guess myself. I’m open to ideas.
Posted By: someguy1233 Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/17/16 01:47 PM
Originally Posted By: sandi2
Quote:
Thank you for being brutally honest. I think I fall into this category of Mr. Nice guy in a lot of ways and not wanting to do anything hoping it will get better. With a WW I have learned it only continues and they will only push further. I believe that she doesn't have respect for me and that is ultimately necessary if there will ever be an R and also even if we only end up co-parenting.


Well, I have seen a lot of divorced couples co-parent who didn't necessarily respect each other. But of course, it sure helps if they do and can be civil to one another.

The book No More Mr. Nice Guy is a free download, if you want to read it and see more details about what a nice-guy type is. I can't give the link, but it's not hard to find.

Thanks for your input here.


Can you tell us the author of the book? I'm getting multiple hits by that name.
Posted By: Old Dog Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/17/16 04:08 PM
Dr Robert Glover.

Also look up The Art of Charm podcast. He was a guest on that and explains it all there quite succinctly.
Posted By: Bfice3 Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/17/16 06:05 PM
Sandi,

Thank you so very much for taking the time, and having the heart to share with us all your experience, strength, and hope! As many others have said, I painfully read through your posts and was haunted by a vision of myself and of my WW and our MR.

I particularly like how you write about the three various aspects of resentment, disrespect, and rebellion. This was very much an exact description of my WW.

The hard part was reading about my own 'cowardice'.

But, just today I was having a phone conversation with a good friend and he said some things to me that I want to believe but I'm not sure how to 'think' about it. So, first let me say that: 1.) I accept that my actions are the only thing I have control over. And also that I am responsible, and I accept my own role in becoming a man that was no longer desirable for my WW. 2.) I also recognize that 'blame' doesn't do any good, and I'm not looking to point fingers at anyone except myself; however, for my own sanity I feel that a full understanding of all sides of an issue is paramount whenever possible.

That being said...here's the question:

What 'should' be the response of a wife in a loving MR with a 'nice-guy type' husband when she sees him devolving into this person that she detests? What is her responsibility? Obviously this can be different in each MR...but couldn't a loving spouse elicit or respond to a husband in such a way as to foster change without having to go through this wayward nonsense? I mean, this just seems like such a shallow, empty, self-serving action this woman is taking...and we are all supposed to just say its okay because, "that's how women are?"

I mean, I get it. Like I said above, I accept my role in this fiasco. I know that I have been this 'coward'. I'm learning, just this week, to say that in fact, I've always been cowardly. And, for me, the only thing I can do is stand up and live my life moving forward in such a way as to become the best me I can be.

But...doesn't the WW share some responsibility? Perhaps not. Or at least, if she does, it shouldn't matter to me, because she has had my balls in a jar for the last 15 years. I just can't help but feel that what my WW has done is easily the most hurtful and disrespectful thing I could possibly imagine.

Anyway. I'm sure I'm setting myself up to be pounded on for focusing on the wrong thing.

Thank you again for sharing, and for any responses.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/17/16 07:06 PM
Quote:
My question is this… how do I put my foot down? Her latest complaints are that I don’t care for her enough. I don’t help with the kids enough. I don’t make sure she’s cared for. My initial thought was to 180 this and “win her over.” But after reading this thread I second guess myself. I’m open to ideas.


I don't think most WW tell the H the true issue at hand. She will either complain about something from years earlier, or give anything the she thinks sound good enough to be a justifiable excuse to break up the M. By the time she is a WW, you could kill yourself trying to "show" her how much you care.........but it's not really the issue. The issue is her lack of respect and admiration for you as a man. That's the direction to work from and where to put your focus. Women don't respect & admire a man that does all the house cleaning, laundry, cooling, child care, etc. That is why M's fall into trouble when the man is a SAHD and the W has a career. She loses respect and admiration for him.

Unless you were you so neglectful and uncaring you were cruel in your treatment of her, I'd take her excuses with a grain of salt. Become a man she respects, and you've won the biggest part of the battle.
Posted By: pinn Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/17/16 08:23 PM
Originally Posted By: sandi2

I don't think most WW tell the H the true issue at hand. She will either complain about something from years earlier, or give anything the she thinks sound good enough to be a justifiable excuse to break up the M.


I think this is spot on. It took me a while to realize this. My wife gave me a very specific issue that was our problem, something she knew I could not argue against, something she said could never be changed. I took me a while to realize the issue she mentioned was just a symptom... the real problem (I believe anyway) is much deeper and along the lines of what Sandi mentions (along with some other things). Once I realized this, I could at least understand things much better.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/18/16 10:27 AM
Quote:
What 'should' be the response of a wife in a loving MR with a 'nice-guy type' husband when she sees him devolving into this person that she detests? What is her responsibility? Obviously this can be different in each MR...but couldn't a loving spouse elicit or respond to a husband in such a way as to foster change without having to go through this wayward nonsense? I mean, this just seems like such a shallow, empty, self-serving action this woman is taking...and we are all supposed to just say its okay because, "that's how women are?"

I mean, I get it. Like I said above, I accept my role in this fiasco. I know that I have been this 'coward'. I'm learning, just this week, to say that in fact, I've always been cowardly. And, for me, the only thing I can do is stand up and live my life moving forward in such a way as to become the best me I can be.

But...doesn't the WW share some responsibility? Perhaps not. Or at least, if she does, it shouldn't matter to me, because she has had my balls in a jar for the last 15 years. I just can't help but feel that what my WW has done is easily the most hurtful and disrespectful thing I could possibly imagine.


Bfice3, you ask a thought provoking question.....at least for me. If I had had instructions about how to deal with a nice-guy, passive husband when we were first M, maybe it would have saved a lot of heartache for both of us, IDK. I certainly did not respond correctly.

I don't know that it is the W's responsibility, but just as in DBing, her response can make a difference. I wonder how many average women know what to do with a passive husband. The trick is having a wife who is smart enough to take the initiative to find the information about passive-aggressive personalities and the nice-guy syndrome, and how to communicate/respond to them. I had never even heard of these terms, and I had no idea how to deal with my H, except to talk plainly about our problems. To him, I'm sure he mostly heard criticism, which just caused him to withdraw even more. The more he withdrew, the less he interacted with me, and the more frustrated and hurt I would become. Eventually, the resentment would win and I know the disrespect had to have shown through me....and I think it made me look mean. His passive, nice-guy ways certainly affected me, and I thought I tried everything. Apparently, I didn't.

In the material that was mostly out there that I would see (back in the day) about relationships, would tell the wife to accept her H as he was and not try to change him. That is still true today and we pass it along on the DB board. We can't control our spouse. However, as you said, our response or interaction can elicit a more positive behavior from them....if we just know the correct manner of response. I think one the problems for a wife who has a passive H is that her level of frustration makes it very difficult to remain calm, patient, and compassionate to what makes her H the way he is. If she's fortunate enough to know why he is passive-aggressive, then it may help her in how to approach him.

I read tons of material on marriage, b/c I knew my M had problems. However, it never occurred to me to read something about his personality traits or character temperament. I held a lot of resentment toward my H b/c I felt forced into having to take charge in everything from disciplining our kids to hurting my back b/c he would never move that heavy object. And if I asked more than once, then I was nagging. We were definitely wired differently! I could have the yard work completed, while he was still looking at it and drinking his morning coffee. I'm sure some people thought I was the controlling bad guy, while he managed to come out smelling like a rose, but truth be known, he was not putting anything into our relationship. So, I resented being the bad guy to my kids, and I resented others thinking he could do no wrong and everything was my fault.

He appears as a nice guy to everyone else, but then they don't have to live with him. He doesn't know how to express himself, and forget emotional intimacy (which is my real LL), or just come in and tell me about his day. His workday would be over and he didn't want to be bothered....at least that was how it appeared from my VP.

For the wife, it's pretty tough to be compassionate when you have resentment, however, the passive person usually needs to be approached with lots of compassion. If the wife approaches as though she's in attack mode....he will not react the way she wants, and things just get worse. So, if she wants to deal with the real issue that's at the bottom of a lot of their problems, she needs to research information about the nice-guy syndrome and see if her H fits that description. Then, she needs to research how to communicate effectively with a passive-aggressive personality. She can't be criticizing, demanding, accusing or blaming. He needs a positive approach. On a day to day basis, he needs her emotional support by praising him for what he does do, admire him as a man, and however she can help build up his self-esteem and confidence.

There are some short youtube bits on how to deal with passive people, and of course, books.

One last thing, I wanted to comment on this part, especially:

Quote:
but couldn't a loving spouse elicit or respond to a husband in such a way as to foster change without having to go through this wayward nonsense?


Just to clarify, she is not going through this wayward nonsense to foster change in her H. He may think she's trying to make him do whatever she gave him as her excuse to end the M, but she is beyond caring if he changes. That's one of the issues, she has given up on him ever changing. She feels she did everything she knew to do, and he would not change for the better. She is wayward b/c she lost respect for him and her resentment grew bigger than the love. She feels he is to blame for her feeling the way she does.

Her waywardness is not his fault, nor his responsibility to change her. Neither is it her fault that he has the nice-guy passivity, nor her responsibility to change him.
Posted By: Bfice3 Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/18/16 11:45 AM
Thank you for responding Sandi. Terrific message, if for nothing else than my sanity.

Quote:
Just to clarify, she is not going through this wayward nonsense to foster change in her H.


Quote:
She is wayward b/c she lost respect for him and her resentment grew bigger than the love.


I understand. I can see this now. Unfortunately...way too late.

Quote:
She feels he is to blame for her feeling the way she does.


This is the part that I just can't process. And I'm basically talking to my WW here...but if I'm responsible for my own happiness...if its up to me to become a better man...then how the hell can you turn this on its head a blame me and hold me responsible for the way you feel and the actions you are taking?

Quote:
Her waywardness is not his fault, nor his responsibility to change her. Neither is it her fault that he has the nice-guy passivity, nor her responsibility to change him.


Yeah...just a tangled web of faults that fuel each other. I never had the words, the correct terms, but I watched this happen and tried to explain it to my wife many times over many years. What I failed to understand was she didn't want my words...she wanted action.

Oh well...live and learn.

Have a great day Sandi!
Posted By: daybyday Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/18/16 01:12 PM
Sandi, you had replied to an earlier question of mine about a WW and separation. To pull all the way back and let them have a taste of H not being their safety net. Can you expound on your opinion of a WAW and separation? I guess my question is, is it the same as for WW? Confused as to my WAW (no OM to my knowledge) wants to separate. Don't want to pursue but can't let it go stagnant either? Ugh!
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/19/16 05:54 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
She feels he is to blame for her feeling the way she does.


This is the part that I just can't process. And I'm basically talking to my WW here...but if I'm responsible for my own happiness...if its up to me to become a better man...then how the hell can you turn this on its head a blame me and hold me responsible for the way you feel and the actions you are taking?


The short answer is that what you say is completely true......and logical. However, a WW is anything but logical. She doesn't think in reasonable, rational terms. She bought into the fairy tale that her H was suppose to make her happy. She sees him failing to do it, and she is angry about it.

For the W who feels she tried to make the MR work and that her H was doing nothing, she turns that resentment on him. She blames him for her anger, disillusion, emotional emptiness, unhappiness, and the failure to have a good marriage.

It takes time for her to deal with those feelings, and that is why she won't listen to him trying to persuade her things can be better and that he has changed. She sees him as the source of her unhappiness and her main goal is to find whatever makes her happy. Sadly, she is seeing that she is responsible for her own happiness, but with her crippled mindset, she doesn't see it from a healthy view point. Her selfishness is driving her, and she has all that anger in her.

She basically has to learn the hard way, by experiencing her reality and dealing with the losses she has caused. That is what shakes her out of the fog. Then she is able to see her H more clearly. If he has made positive changes in himself, she will be drawn to him. She still has to deal with her internal feelings. If she feels remorse and wants to save her M, she will humbly approach her H.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/19/16 07:12 AM
This is just my opinion based on the differences I have observed in a WW and the wife who walks away without a wayward heart. A wayward wife has bitterness, resentment, vindictiveness, coldness and a goulash of other negative issues against her LBH. She usually shows some type of rebellion against the MR and her H.

Then there is the woman who has given up on the M and her H. She has lost all encouragement and hope. Some women leave out of very serious issues, such as abuse, imprisonment, abandonment, etc. Some WAW'S have a hurt heart. They are sad, disappointed, feel devalued, etc. There may be resentment there, but I don't think it is the same as the wayward wife. The wayward leans more toward hatefulness, meanness, and just cold as ice. She isn't hurt......she's mad! And the main things are that a wayward wife is motivated by pure selfishness. Whereas a walk away wife may be just trying to escape/survive her situation. The wayward wife is manipulative, whereas the walk away wife is not focused on manipulating her LBH. The wayward wife is rebellious. To me, that is a key difference.

I remember when Coach and Greek were on the board. I can't remember all her reasons for walking away from the M, except that Coach spent every spare minute focused on his team and Greek felt very lonely and neglected. Coach made changes and Greek went back home. She started posting on the board to encourage others. I never detected any wayward signs in Greek. So, that is an example of a walk away where there were no issues of abuse or severity of that nature. She was fed up and felt she didn't have a H, and that his team was his priority. The only form of rebellion was just leaving the M. She wasn't in any type of A, she wasn't acting like a wild teenager, or any of the typical behaviors of a wayward. As I remember, Coach (who could be called a man's man) used a certain amount of tough love, by not begging, being a doormat, etc. He did not have to go to the lengths a man with a WW usually has to take, and Greek went home pretty soon.

Depending on the reason the wife has walked away. If the H has hurt her, then he can sincerely apologize to her, then give her space and start making drastic changes in himself. She will have to see for herself that those changes are not just him trying to con her and that they are authentic. This is a situation where he could slowly try to ease into a friendship with her. The only time I balk against the friend route is when the wife is wayward. Of course, I still caution the H to go slowly with his WAW and don't become her gay boyfriend. He wants her to be attracted and sexually drawn to him. If she has a hurt heart, then he has to prove to her that she can trust him with her heart again. He has to ease slowly into a romantic pursuit, or she will take off running. Every situation is a little different, so this is a wide span of advice, instead of narrowed down to individuals.

One more word of caution. Just b/c there have been no evidence of an A/OM, does not mean her heart is not wayward. Her attitude usually gives her away. Is she hurt, or is the deep ugliness within her rearing it's head? Does she lash out at you? Is everything about her? Does she act like a completely different woman from the one you married? If she appears to be a devil dressed in your W's body, there is very probability that she is wayward.

Have I answered your question, or did I talk around it?
Posted By: Sparkls Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/19/16 08:30 AM
How do you tell the difference though? My WS seems to be doing both. He brought up legitimate concerns in our relationship (some things I really am working on changing within myself), but is also doing a lot of the wayward things (I never loved you, I never wanted this life, there is OW who makes him *so* happy who he is living with, not sure if I'm happy with her because I was so unhappy with you etc.).

I guess at the end of the day, my response is kind of the same. Let him do what he needs to do and focus on myself and fixing the things I think I need to fix (learn to try and control things less, listen more, appreciate, get treatment for my depression etc) but some of these I can only really work on if he comes out of his fog and agrees to try and work on the relationship.


Edit - Slight correction: he is staying with her and her best friend in her best friends house.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/19/16 09:32 AM
Sparks, IMO, if they are having an affair, they are wayward.
Posted By: daybyday Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/19/16 10:20 AM
Yes you did Sandi. She is def. hurt, but everything seems to be about her. Always has been kind of. Always needed tons of validation and that's one thing that I couldn't give. It became exhausting. That's one of her major beefs. I believe if not her body, then her heart is Wayward as you have said. I guess respect and admiration are the first steps to winning this battle?


Let me clarify, I shouldn't have used the word validation because that is not what I meant. I should have said praise. Constantly looking for that verbal pat on the back. Insecurity I know and I grew to resent that so I pulled back. It makes you appreciate what a fine tuned machine a good marriage is as there are so many moving, interchangeable parts.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/19/16 11:32 AM
Quote:
I guess respect and admiration are the first steps to winning this battle?


I would say so.

Your W's love language is probably words of affirmation. On the other hand, I have seen a few people who thrive on praise. They get so centered on themselves that they almost become demanding of praise. They are like a vampire sucking you dry.

I have a relative who has very low self-esteem and depends upon others to make her feel good about herself. If anyone ever says one little negative word, she's through with them. If you praise her, she comes alive. But she doesn't know how to build her own self value, and what she gets from others is not self-sustaining.
Posted By: Fogg Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/19/16 01:30 PM
Originally Posted By: sandi2

I have a relative who has very low self-esteem and depends upon others to make her feel good about herself. If anyone ever says one little negative word, she's through with them. If you praise her, she comes alive. But she doesn't know how to build her own self value, and what she gets from others is not self-sustaining.

This would be my W. This behavior confused the hell out of me over the last year because validating/being kind to her would make her chatty toward me. Took time to realize it was still just all about her. I'm sure there is some deep attachment and feelings in there for me but it was mostly convenience I was around. Anyone else that could make her feel good about herself would have worked also.
Posted By: Georgia Bulldogs Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/19/16 04:09 PM
There are so many issues and strategies and philosophies discussed in this thread that it makes me dizzy to read.

I found myself agreeing and disagreeing throughout.

First off...I agree with Sandi that sitting back and accommodating a wayward doesn't work. Men very often do have conflict avoidance issues as well as lack of understanding about marriage and women.

Just a couple of quick counter points though:

1. Dr. Glover of No More Mr. Nice Guy fame is not nor ever was "a nice guy". His two marriages failed (*see quote below - he was a serial adulterer and still sounds very much like an unrepentant wayward). Part of Dr. Glover's rationalizations and justifications for marrying, cheating on and then dumping his two wives is that his picker was bad and he shouldn't have ever married these two (weaker, no fun and less undesirable) women. That he was too much of a "nice guy" so he married them and then cheated on them because they weren't right together from the get go. His whole philosophy about be a good "ender" of relationships and dumping people (women) after getting really intimate and close with them (including sexually, of course) because they aren't perfect fits in your own narcissistic life plan of banging younger and younger women and having fun where fun suits you....is completely anathema to the purpose and values of this forum (divorce busting). In other words...Dr. Glover promotes divorce (being a good "ender" by realizing your wife was never a good fit for you and you'd have realized that if you weren't so busy being nice and trying to fix things or patch things up with her). Dr. Glover's philosophies and advice on relationships should be read with that understanding. He was NOT a nice guy trying to act like a nice guy and it then resulted in him becoming a serial cheater. He, not his ex-wives (particularly the wife of his youth), was the poor choice and sorry excuse for a husband.

Click to reveal.. (Dr. Glover direct quote from Episode #60 Why Nice Guys Are Actually Nasty Guys)
[Dr. Robert Glover] Yes. Actually, my second wife, like a said it began as an affair. We were both married when we got together. I did have an affair early in that marriage and that’s why I started going to therapy. Then, yes she did have an affair towards the end of it. Then I stuck around three more years. I had other reasons for sticking around, like kids were involved. But yeah, on both of our parts there was unconscious stuff going on there, for sure.


2. Being a nice guy doesn't cause wives to cheat and women love actual "nice guys". This can be demonstrated by how quickly and easily most of the divorced betrayed husband's on these forums have absolutely no trouble finding new girlfriends and wives within a short time after divorce that are so often twice the woman their ex-wayward wife ever was. These "nice guys" ARE awesome.

3. I have gleaned that MOST OF THE TIME (not always) the primary or biggest problems and issues in the marriage can be most attributable to the wayward spouse. Sure fix some stuff and clean up your side of the marital street but stop blaming yourself (or your niceness) for your spouse's unhealthy, destructive and hurtful choices. Their choices can more probably and easily be explained by looking at the wayward's (and their family of origin's) history of bad choices. Generational curses happen because children from broken dysfunctional homes are more likely to cheat, abuse and use and break their own homes....the apple usually doesn't fall far from the tree. Notice this is applied to both wayward husbands and wayward wives. How "nice" their husband is doesn't really factor in.

4. As a man...YOU define your own masculinity. Be careful when others (women, men of weak character like Dr. Glover and especially your own wayward wife) tell you what a man is. Neither my wife nor, apparently, Sandi would put up for 2 seconds with what they both put their husband through. So they both pull their hair out watching betrayed husbands on these forums put up with so much crap. However, both Sandi's husband and I saved our wives from the grips of infidelity and restored our loving marriages and families. We both did something right even though we didn't do everything right every day.

5. Your biggest enemy isn't your wife's lack of respect for you. She couldn't care less and demonstrably has ZERO respect for you. Thus you can demand or request all the respect you want but she won't give it to you unless it helps her keep the affair going. It's all about the affair. Interfere with it and she'll be hateful. Leave it and her alone - she'll be as pleasant as a wayward can be. The reason being nice doesn't work isn't because it kills her respect for you, it doesn't work because it doesn't interfere or otherwise facilitate the ending of the affair. Accomplishing "no contact" is the only thing that matters. You've got to hold her accountable and, if she resists, expose evil. If your wife is messing with a married man, and you are a Christian husband, you have a duty to confront your spouse and if they refuse to stop sinning, to disclose the affair to OM's wife (without warning or threatening OM or your wife or it WILL backfire). If your Christian, you also have a duty (after private confrontation and she refuses to end it) to disclose your wife's sin to the Church/Pastor who should bring it to the attention of the Church elders and any bible study group the wayward participates in. I also think, in short order, the children of the marriage must be told lest the little narcissists conclude it's all about them and something they are causing. The children need to know the truth about their lives too...in an age appropriate manner.

6. Get help. You've never been cheated on before and certainly don't know how to respond. The fact you find yourself in this situation at all is probably an indication you have weak relationship skills and conflict avoidance issues already so trying to do it yourself is foolhardy. Your wife is cheating on you. You can't conflict avoid yourself out of this. I know it FEELS shameful but infidelity is rampant. It's already happened to many of your friends and family you just don't know it yet. Getting help from experienced persons is essential for your best chance to save your wife and family as well as your emotional well-being. Especially as the only sane parent remaining in the household, your children need you to be smart about this and seek wise counsel to save mom and their family. In the process though be sure to use your discernment from whom you solicit and take advice. There are more wayward therapists out there than just Dr. Glover. Marital therapists actually have one of the highest rates of divorce and infidelity of any profession. Ask questions - a good therapist, in general, should be happily married, speak well of his/her spouse and have a client list full of reconciliation success stories one or more of whom he'd be willing to offer you as a reference. Personally, I think you are better off with a marriage coach because counselors generally prefer talk therapy and you need someone experienced to actually tell you what to do instead of talking about your (or your wife's) childhood; or, worse, how you caused your wife's affair because you were too nice.
Posted By: Georgia Bulldogs Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/19/16 04:21 PM
Originally Posted By: sandi2
Quote:
I guess respect and admiration are the first steps to winning this battle?


I would say so.



I would say no.

The first step to winning this battle is busting up the affair. You (or she) can respect and admire the heck out of each other but as long as there remains a third party interfering in your marriage, you don't stand a chance.

Now if by "respect" you mean -

A wife that demands her husband allow her to remain friends and in contact with her affair partner doesn't respect her husband....

Then I would agree that she needs a modicum of respect for her husband, her family and, quite frankly, herself, to actually establish and maintain "no contact" herself. However, even that doesn't matter much. The OM in my situation dumped my wife after he was exposed as an adulterer to his friends and family. My wife had no choice in "no contact" and would have probably preferred riding the fence cake eating for a few more weeks, months...years. I probably would have ended up divorced if I simply waited for her to "get it". However, after a few weeks of "no contact" she started realizing what a fool she had been and despite having zero respect or feelings towards me decided for herself that "no contact" was what she wanted to and despite not feeling it...to give reconciliation a fair shot. The rest is history.

The point is....you don't need respect or remorse FIRST. You only need "no contact" and THEN you have a chance to get respect and remorse....eventually.
Posted By: 1313 Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/19/16 06:42 PM
Originally Posted By: Georgia Bulldogs
If your Christian, you also have a duty (after private confrontation and she refuses to end it) to disclose your wife's sin to the Church/Pastor who should bring it to the attention of the Church elders and any bible study group the wayward participates in. I also think, in short order, the children of the marriage must be told lest the little narcissists conclude it's all about them and something they are causing. The children need to know the truth about their lives too...in an age appropriate manner.


My WW planned way ahead on this one.

First, her OM is divorced and I doubt his X would care at all.

Second, the W suddenly stopped going to Church oddly right around the time I believe the EA began. While I was not a regular attendee (I sure am now), she blamed the fact that the Church ousted the pastor because he was having an affair. While my IL's felt he should have been forgiven, I could sort of understand the Elders' decision. After all, this is their decision to make.

In hindsight it's pretty interesting that this was the reason, and one that the W objected to. The timing couldn't have been better for her.

With her turning her back on God and our Church, I'm guessing she no longer felt there was a moral authority dictating to her. What completely floors me is that she was and has been a devout Christian for many, many years. Extremely active in the Church and even sang in the choir. I'm the sinner in need of saving.

This is where I have a hard time as well. I haven't told anybody at the Church - not that it would make a difference now as she's buffered herself from it. But I suppose I should, at least they can pray for her.
Posted By: ARose Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/19/16 07:03 PM
Originally Posted By: SparkSB
How do you tell the difference though? My WS seems to be doing both. He brought up legitimate concerns in our relationship (some things I really am working on changing within myself), but is also doing a lot of the wayward things (I never loved you, I never wanted this life, there is OW who makes him *so* happy who he is living with, not sure if I'm happy with her because I was so unhappy with you etc.).

I guess at the end of the day, my response is kind of the same. Let him do what he needs to do and focus on myself and fixing the things I think I need to fix (learn to try and control things less, listen more, appreciate, get treatment for my depression etc) but some of these I can only really work on if he comes out of his fog and agrees to try and work on the relationship.


Sparks I have struggled with the same question. And then I realized that we ALL have legitimate issues in our marriage. But we either suck it up, talk to our spouse about it, or get counseling. Those are the healthy responses to dealing with legitimate issues. That is what you do. If you go wayward, then you use those legitimate issues as an excuse to justify your own behavior. Doesn't mean the issues aren't real, just means that you are using issues - that everyone in every marriage has- to justify being a cheater. If you talk to your friends with "healthy" marriages you will find that everyone has issues. Everyone. Not everyone cheats, not everyone spews, not everyone uses those issues to justify bad behavior.

Go ahead and address your issues because it is the right thing to do. But do not accept the blame for your partner's behavior.
Posted By: 1313 Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/19/16 07:11 PM
Originally Posted By: sandi2

I don't think most WW tell the H the true issue at hand. She will either complain about something from years earlier, or give anything the she thinks sound good enough to be a justifiable excuse to break up the M. By the time she is a WW, you could kill yourself trying to "show" her how much you care.........but it's not really the issue. The issue is her lack of respect and admiration for you as a man. That's the direction to work from and where to put your focus. Women don't respect & admire a man that does all the house cleaning, laundry, cooling, child care, etc. That is why M's fall into trouble when the man is a SAHD and the W has a career. She loses respect and admiration for him.


Pearls of wisdom. Like most LBH here, I found the WW rewrote history - completely. Some of her parting shots to me were absolutely mind-blowing. Like her disappointment on the honeymoon night (never mind the nights before and after), or not having intimacy when we were in Venice. She's always been one to have fantasies, and huge expectations for certain things. The problem with expectations is you're setting yourself up for disappointment. If I disappointed her, I am truly sorry. I only ever looked at all the amazing times and honestly remember few bad.

But of course - this is all part of their journey into turning us into useless, pathetic, repulsive creatures. The 99 good times are over-ridden by the 1 bad. Even if it wasn't bad. I'm sorry I ever apologized for anything I did to tell you the truth.

I just wonder - she expected so much before - do they expect the same from the OM? Or are they all of a sudden forgiving when the door isn't being held open, or they need to fix their own dinner? I'm assuming the guy could take a dump on her and she'd think it was roses.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/20/16 10:36 AM
I believe young women are set up for high, romantic expectations. All her growing up years, she watches romantic movies, read romance novels, and daydreams about her knight in shining armor. So, a nice man comes along and he is so sweet and wonderful to her. She believe he is the one for her. She pours herself into a dream wedding and has romantic fantasies of the wedding night......as well as for the rest of life. They are usually unrealistic and b/c these expectations are so lofty......she's going to be greatly disappointed. With disappointment comes her resentment and blame. She blames her H for not being what she wanted. He didn't produce the desired effects. She complains and cries, and he tries harder to make her happy.....b/c she thinks it's his job to make her happy, and he's just trying to get along with her.

Quote:
But of course - this is all part of their journey into turning us into useless, pathetic, repulsive creatures. The 99 good times are over-ridden by the 1 bad. Even if it wasn't bad. I'm sorry I ever apologized for anything I did to tell you the truth.


Right! Let me add that it's not as much as the good times vs the bad times as it is the emotional connection. Couples can go through devasting times and still be crazy about each other. Love should not be based on how many great days the couple experienced.

Here is the dynamics I see in most of these nice-guy marriages to entitled princesses. She has these lofty fantasies. When he doesn't produce the happy feelings she thinks is his duty to do, as her H.........she reacts. When she reacts, he may crawl into his shell, man cave, or whatever he does to withdraw from her. He is hoping she'll calm down and he can bear to live with her again. Some nice-guys may try "explaining" to his immature, demanding W, how life really works......but she's not having any of it. She feels entitled to more, better, than him. She may throw fits, give him the ice treatment, withdraw sex, or cry for days..........and he finds himself doing the only thing he knows to do.......apologizing. He may not realize WHAT he apologizing for, but he will do anything she wants just to get her out of this mood. He walks around on eggshells, fearing the least thing could set her off. He lets her have her way, just to keep the peace. However, instead of appreciation, she becomes more demanding, harsh, disrespectful in the way she talks to him and in her attitude toward him. It's as if she has this hidden agenda that he can't figure out. He is knocking himself out to give her what she wants, and she seems to like him less. He keeps giving and she keeps taking.

Sure he probably made some mistakes in their MR, who doesn't. However, he is the one who always seems to give in first. He's the first to apologize, to initiate making up, and willing to do whatever she wants him to do. If he will evaluate their relationship, he will see that she actually controls the MR. How? By having her fits, bad moods, bulling, withdrawing sex, manipulation, etc. A man can take just so much of this behavior! However, it has worked for her in the past, so that is the weapon of choice. If he does not change how he interacts and responds to her, this dynamic of her running the show in selfish, irresponsible and disrespectful behavior, will continue even after they are divorced. He has to change the dynamics within their interaction, their relationship and connection. She will not change toward him until he makes the changes necessary. First step is finding his b@lls.

I will tell you men a secret, and I am going to put it plainly. Women love men with b@lls! We are drawn to men who have b@lls, and who especially show their b@lls to us. We don't tell them, of course, but we respect those guys who act like men with us. You know the type I mean, right? Men who won't be manipulated, pushed around, and we can't use our little feminine tricks with them. Men who are not afraid of us, and will call us out for disrespect and bad behavior. We women, who we're born without b@lls, try to acquire them by taking them away from the men. If we are M, guess who is our number one target? And, once we have the power of our H's b@lls, we don't intend to hand them back easily.

When women marry a nice-guy type, the negative side of his nice-guy traits become more visible after marriage. B/c guess what? The guy's W is going after his b@lls. If he meekly hands them over to her, he has lost his position as the man in the M and she takes the man's place, b/c she has the equipment that says, "The one with the b@lls is the man". The nice-guy thinks he is being cooperative, or keeping the peace, or whatever reason he tells himself when she tests his manhood. Each time, she walks away with his b@lls. And you know what? B@lls just do not compliment a female. I mean, she's just is not very attractive trying to attach those things to her. She loses a part that makes her soft and feminine. And guess how she sees her H, who is minus the b@lls? She sees him being the soft and feminine one in the relationship. Well, this order of things does not work well in a male-female MR. The roles gets all messed up, and the woman who took the b@lls becomes more of a bully than a loving wife. The kicker is.....she's still unhappy and she thinks it has to be all the H's fault.

Years of resentment toward her H, and the lack of respect she feels for him as a man......is followed by bad behavior, waywardness, rebellion. It may show in various ways, but it's just a matter of time until she's ready to throw him aside and find herself a "real" man (or so she thinks).

Quote:
I just wonder - she expected so much before - do they expect the same from the OM? Or are they all of a sudden forgiving when the door isn't being held open, or they need to fix their own dinner? I'm assuming the guy could take a dump on her and she'd think it was roses.


Well, in the beginning, she is so fogged out of her mind that she seldom sees him for what he truly is, b/c she is buying more & more into the fantasy. She has these dreams of him being her "true" love who is going to rescue her from the miserable life she's had with her H. Even if someone shows her proof of this OM being a loser, her fantasy drives her to make excuses, ignore it, or forgive him. She will either see him more clearly when the fogg lifts or when they are living together and have to deal with real life.

Regardless of the outcome with the WW and OM, the LBH needs to really strive in changing his nice-guy tactics and learn from the interaction in his MR. I will tell you another secret. A wife will need her H to stand up to her, not fear her moods and fits, and put his foot down when she is misbehaving. Every time he allows her to push him around, she loses more respect for him. Avoiding conflict is not how a man needs to deal with his wife. He needs to take charge, get his b@lls to the rightful owner, and start being the man he was meant to be. He needs to be the leader, instead of acting like her employee. He must command respect from his wife and children and take the position as head of the family.
Posted By: ARose Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/20/16 11:05 AM
Originally Posted By: Georgia Bulldogs
Originally Posted By: sandi2
Quote:
I guess respect and admiration are the first steps to winning this battle?


I would say so.



I would say no.

The first step to winning this battle is busting up the affair. You (or she) can respect and admire the heck out of each other but as long as there remains a third party interfering in your marriage, you don't stand a chance.

Now if by "respect" you mean -

A wife that demands her husband allow her to remain friends and in contact with her affair partner doesn't respect her husband....

Then I would agree that she needs a modicum of respect for her husband, her family and, quite frankly, herself, to actually establish and maintain "no contact" herself. However, even that doesn't matter much. The OM in my situation dumped my wife after he was exposed as an adulterer to his friends and family. My wife had no choice in "no contact" and would have probably preferred riding the fence cake eating for a few more weeks, months...years. I probably would have ended up divorced if I simply waited for her to "get it". However, after a few weeks of "no contact" she started realizing what a fool she had been and despite having zero respect or feelings towards me decided for herself that "no contact" was what she wanted to and despite not feeling it...to give reconciliation a fair shot. The rest is history.

The point is....you don't need respect or remorse FIRST. You only need "no contact" and THEN you have a chance to get respect and remorse....eventually.



GB, a couple of months ago you advised me to gather some intel to determine once and for all if h was still with ow. I don't know if you remember, but H was leaving for 6 months for a job across the country. I did not take your advice.

I chose to believe him when he said it was over. He still says it is over and I kind of believe him. But I don't know, and now that he is not here I have no way to find out. I wish I had taken your advice then. H is still angry and alternates between anger and silence and I really wish if I knew if I was dealing with a wayward H or just an angry H. It would mean a huge difference to me in my commitment.

I just wanted to let you know that I regret not taking your advice. You were right. I should have listened to you. Being in limbo is the hardest thing. Please keep posting and sharing your perspective. It is helpful.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/21/16 01:52 AM
GB, I don't know why you persist in following me around on the board and trying to discredit my posts. We obviously do not see eye to eye about some things, but why do you feel you must pop in from time to time to make your "counter points" to what you think I am saying? We know where you stand about exposing affairs. This thread is not about exposure and the tactics you recommend.

The Nice-Guy Syndrome is about a personality type. It is much deeper than just a man who seems nice. If you want to discredit the author of the book, based on his private life, I had prefer you not do it on my thread. I recommend the book b/c it explains the the NGS much better than I could attempt. And perhaps, according to your judgements of Dr. glover, I shouldn't have anything to say, either,........since I am a former WW, IDK. I am not trying to tell men how to be men, I am trying to explain how women react to the negative side of the NGS. When men ask me how they should do this or that.......maybe you see my answer as telling them how to be men, IDK. All I can tell them is from a woman's VP how she will react to his NGS.

I have tried very hard to explain how it is much more than the affair that was happening in the MR, and how a foundation of disrespect, deep resentment, and rebellion is formed before the A comes on the scene. In some cases, there is no affair at the time a newcomer arrives, but his W has all the signs of being ready. But I do not blame a man for his W's infidelity.

This is not meant as a personal challenge to debate, it's only my defense of my thread.
Posted By: rd500 Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/21/16 02:30 AM
Hi Sandi , just a quick thank you as a LBS Your perspective is unique because you where there and lived it. Others have beliefs due to place of birth or whatever and they can come a cross as a bit self righteous Please don't defend your position , I can't speak for others but your posts help me get through this and IMHO your invaluable

Thank you. Rd
Posted By: Si_07 Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/21/16 03:36 AM
I agree with Rd Sandi, I have found your posts and answers to questions insightful and can take much from them. Thank you for your continued support to this board.

I had been looking back trying to find something, I think it has been mentioned in several places that a WW can wait till the last moment of a 'deadline' before turning on a big sob story as a test of whether her H will cave into it. I have a week before my W is due to move to her apartment but find some of her actions around the house to be strange. For example, we have wood floors and they get oiled occasionally, I told her I would do it when she has gone and some of the things are gone as it will be easier but she is dong it this morning. It's almost like she is cleaning like she is planning to stay... I could be entirely wrong of course but just wondering what I might expect if she was to take this to the 'deadline'.

I have continued like you suggested awhile back of removing myself as much as possible from her and am doing my GAL activities without explaining myself.
I have also had her family contact me in the past week, something they haven't been doing for a couple of months.

I'm expecting this week to get stranger by the day and will keep moving forward with my own things.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/21/16 07:05 AM
Thank you for your encouragement, RD.


Thanks SI, it hard to say about your W and why she's oiling the floors. I remember waxing the floors right before we moved from a house, b/c I did not want to be seen by the landlord as less than a perfect housekeeper. And, that was before my WW days.....so who knows why or what she's thinking. I could guess several things, but bottom line is women can do some strange things sometimes.

Stay focused on you and don't get distracted by her craziness.

Posted By: Huddy Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/21/16 10:14 AM
As a LBS, I can only say that, virtually to a tee, everything that sandi2 has said about WW has been spot on. For that, she gets my respect as I am quite sure I would be in a desperate position now if I had not read her words (others as well). I commend this hero to anyone. Don't forget, sandi2 has lived everything she is talking about - if we didn't have that insight, I doubt few of us would realise what was going through our W's heads.
Posted By: daybyday Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/23/16 01:23 PM
Sandi, a question about how WAW may feel. Still in same house (at the moment) and am wondering about making plans such as seeing movie, out to eat etc. Do you think the WAW gets a sense of relief when we make plans without them or are we supposed to try to include them in our plans. Don't want to be seen as pursuing when I am just asking if she wants to go along with S and I. if she says no, we are still are doing it.



I am also having a heck of a time identifying my wife. Is she WW or just WAW. I was here 8 years ago and she was WW with known EA. This time it seems different but there are different dynamics at play also. She doesn't go out much, the last time she did. She still comes to me to talk about stuff, the last time she didnt. But, she has to have thought of life without me and I am sure she would not be celibate so wouldn't that classify her as WW. Are there degrees of WW or is this just the start.She wanted D right off the bat but I was able to talk her off of the ledge. I suggested sep. She agreed, but has still not found a place. I just hate to be applying WW Db'ing to a legitimate WAW who is just done with trying to fix. I would love to hear your take.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/23/16 04:43 PM
I would evaluate her based on her interactions and behavior toward you. In your evaluation, consider the answer to the following questions: Did she appear to change suddenly? Does her heart seem to closed to you? Are her reasons for ending the M based on selfishness? Does she make every thing about her, and if it's not....then she isn't interested? Does she take out her moodiness or anger on you? Does it take very little for you to set her off? Does she keep her phone glued to her? How was the sex life before she announced she wanted a divorce? Does she show a disrespectful attitude toward you? Does she ever put you down in front of others or the kids? Does she seem to have resentment, yet you aren't sure why? Have you seen anything out of character for her? Aside from talking about herself, her day, her problems.........does she seem interested in you at all?

Does she seem overall sad and hopeless? Does she act as if she has given up all hope? Does she act as if she is hurt or disappointed? Has she tried to work out the issues with you? Does she act as if she wants to be free, or escape?

Do you feel this could be the result of things not being resolved from the time you were here in 2008?
Posted By: daybyday Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/23/16 06:51 PM
Thanks Sandi.No, no change suddenly. Yes heart closed to me. Reasons sort of based on selfishness. Not all about her, but little interest otherwise. No to taking her anger out on me. Phone is sometimes left next to me on the couch when she leaves room. Sex life was not good. Had been 1 1/2 years (red flag).No disrespect or put down in front of others. Does have resentment but she has told me why and they seem reasonable to me. Some interest in me but not as much as earlier in our marriage.No longer seems sad or hopeless after bomb. Hurt and disappointed before but not after bomb. She has said she just doesnt want to be married anymore because she doesnt like me anymore. Said i was mean so on so on. I do feel that we didnt resolve issues in 2008. She has mentioned that we have a codependent R and she had made excuses for me for a long time. Said she has no more fight as we would just end up right back here again.
Posted By: Sparkls Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/23/16 06:54 PM
Curious how the whole process works when its a wayward husband as opposed to wife. Sandi has been amazing at laying it out based on her situation. I guess I'm just curious if it's different if it's a man who's strayed as opposed to a wife. Thoughts? I'm sure there's probably a post somewhere on this forum about it but I'm struggling to find it.
Posted By: daybyday Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/23/16 09:54 PM
Sandi, after my last post, me and W had a long overdue lay-it-all on the table talk. I believe with all my heart that she is WAW. We discussed past EA 8 years ago and she was remorseful and ashamed. We also agreed that we never knew enough back then to begin to work on the real troubles of our M. There is noone else and we agreed that when we separate that there will be no one else in the picture or the whole thing is moot. I am leary of someone who has lied in the past but I truly believe she has issues other that another romantic interest. She will be financing her apt but will require some help. I told her that I will be paying attention to our acct. and we agreed that this is reasonable. It will be a 6 month lease.

My question is now A. Do i help her move out? the only reason I am considering it is because she could have been a real bitch and came at me hard with D papers in hand already, or not agreed to try a separation. So even though she is WAW I am going to do that. B. How do I proceed from there interaction wise? I don't want to be her BFF and will work on myself and being a better H. Is less more even with a WAW or do I interact more? I know I have been told, "make her feel what it's like to live on her own" so unless I detach she won't feel or possibly miss anything. On the other hand, by me detaching, doesnt that just make it easier for her to learn to live without me as her H? I am glad that we are getting this process started as living together in same house and guessing the answers to my many questions was not fun. I feel that I now have my answers and although am not happy that she feels she has to leave, it will give us both some time to think. I may feel different in 6months just as she might. She has come around a bit though. When B was dropped she said there was no way that her feelings could change. Now, she's not sure. Not sure would be a normal response IMO. because, who does know the future. People can fall in love again, but not without reflection, forgiveness and real change. I hope that we can get there, but I am a dumb insecure male at this point in my journey. My life has been my family and I will need some support from this great board to smack me in the head when needed and to uplift me when I despair. Rambling a lot I know but I am just relieved. If you take the time to read and respond, bless you as I haven't remembered to break my response into smaller paragraphs for easier reading. lol
Posted By: ATPeace Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/23/16 11:52 PM
Sandi so much of what you write just screams,out at me as yes this is her ...

My W is a ww and,she has lost total respect for me you know from my threads that in her mind any issues in the marrage has been turned into meet absive my w never apologised to me it was always me apologising first.... come to think of it I do not remember a time when she ever said sorry to me for anything.

You said in your post When I think of a woman, who has no ill intent in her heart, leaving her M behind and waking away broken hearted and defeated.........I picture a woman who is in pain and/or sees no hope in things ever getting better.

This is her.

When you said But don't confuse this with a woman who has sorrowfully given up on her H ever contributing to the MR and walks away b/c she has lost all hope. She would not be "playing" him b/c she is done with him. Her H would probably have to make some life long changes before she would be convinced they were legit. If all her attraction for him had faded, he may have to work hard and long to get that back again. However, it is what is in her heart that led her to leave him that determines if she was wayward or if she is a hurting WAW.

I can see this in her

You also said I don't think most WW tell the H the true issue at hand. She will either complain about something from years earlier, or give anything the she thinks sound good enough to be a justifiable excuse to break up the M. By the time she is a WW, you could kill yourself trying to "show" her how much you care.........but it's not really the issue. The issue is her lack of respect and admiration for you as a man. That's the direction to work from and where to put your focus. Women don't respect & admire a man that does all the house cleaning, laundry, cooling, child care, etc. That is why M's fall into trouble when the man is a SAHD and the W has a career. She loses respect and admiration for him.

How do I rebuild the respect and admiration that she once had ? If I stand up to her it just rattles her even more

And finally you talk about her taking the balls and becoming the man in the marrage and THIS is what has happend in our marrage

Now she wants nothing to do has closed down on working in the marrage and has made her mind up that the marrage is over she is stubben always has been she has turned the whole marrage into doom and gloom

Sandi my W disowned her father because he was not a good enough dad he ignored the fact that the stepmum was abusing my W and she has nothing to do with him has not been in contact in over 20 years or more she also disowned her mother because she and her fathers marrage broke down her mum was cheering on her father so she has nothing to do with her for the sae length of time ....she also stopped all contact with two of her sisters many many years ago...and when my brothers law tried to talk to her she blocked him and my sister from her life ....so why am I surprised that she is now cutting me out of her life.

My daughter has seen this and she is also cutting me out of her life and she has done the same to my sister and my sisters daughter and her husband.

I like so many wanted to find a way to save our marrage turn it arround and build a new better relationship I do not want to accept that this is not going to be Posable and this makes it impossible for me to move forwards.

Internet hugs and respect to you

Ghost
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/24/16 05:49 AM
Before I forget to ask, do you have children, and what are the ages of everyone?

I certainly am no authority about how to deal with separations. I do believe there are different types and reasons, and the LBS needs to base his/her behavior accordingly.

I think most couples have different expectations in the separation. Usually, the LBS sees it as a means to repair the MR, whereas the WAS sees it as freedom from the bounds of M. You see this separation as buying you more time. Have the two of you discussed each one's expectations? Is she simply agreeing to a separation, rather than divorce, to help you deal with it? Have either of you discussed a limited time for the separation? Will this be a legal separation, or will the two of you work out the details yourselves?

Perhaps your W has gone a long time with unmet emotional needs. She may feel that she gave one last hard try when she ended her EA and you thought things were really good. Sometimes, IMO, men think the MR is great b/c they see the W working hard at the R.....plus, the sex is great. However, the truth of the matter is that she's giving it her all, and he's enjoying the heck out of it. But, he is not really contributing to the relationship. His needs are met but her needs are not met. He thinks she's happy b/c he sees her doing things within the MR that he sums up as her being happy. Life is good. Only, it isn't b/c if she was not the one "giving" and putting out the work, it would fall flat. Her depression gets worse. She wonders when he will start giving her what she needs, and she eventually wears down. Her emotional energy is drained. Her motivation is gone. She feels things will never get better for her as long as she stays in this M. It is like a slow death for her. She is suffocating inside a plastic bag and is scratching & clawing to get air. For her, the answer is to end the M. She thinks it is the only way she can survive. If she is ever to be happy again, then it will be apart or outside of the M. Does this seem to describe your W?

One reason she may appear happy and motivated after the bomb is b/c she feels released and is starting a new life. At this time, she probably has no intentions of reconciling, and thinks she is allowing you to ease into the idea of divorce. If your W is not wayward, then I think it is important to keep things as friendly as possible. Don't allow her to roughshod you, but try to cooperate as much as possible. Bear in mind that there may not be a R, and once she's out of the house, you may discover a hidden affair or she may go ahead and file for D. So, be wise.

Personally, I think the H should give her the space she needs right now. That means he is not contacting all through the day or evening. He doesn't drive by her place, or just show for some made up excuse. He doesn't ask her questions about where she's been, what was she doing, or who she was with. That is a huge turnoff. If she initiates contact with him, then I think he should respond in a friendly, upbeat manner. During the "kid swap", he should show her his best smile and personality. In fact, during the S, je should show her his best whenever he has the opportunity.

If I were you, I'd probably give her a few weeks before I suggested having a once-a-week family outing. If she initiates wanting it, that's even better. Remember, this is very contrary to what I would advise a man who has a wayward. I don't want to blow anyone's mind here. Give her time and space first, and slowly build up to a healthy rapport. Put romance out of your mind for quite some time, b/c I doubt she will be ready very soon. Way down the road, if she still is not seeing anyone (as she claims), and if she seems to be warming toward you, then you might suggest just the two of you going out. Please, please understand that this is a very general scope or overview. And I continue to repeat that is not for a wayward.

Although she may not be wayward, she feels she is completely done with the M. If she feels you pressuring her to see you, she will start getting colder. If you push, she will bolt and padlock the door, so be sure you do nothing to indicate you are wanting to date her. She needs to think that you are being friend-ly, co-parenting well, and cooperative. Do NOT "remind" her (I don't know why men think women need to be reminded all the time) that you still want to reconcile, that you don't want to D, that you believe the M can be saved, ask her for another chance, etc. This absolutely piles pressure on a woman, and she will push you away. The two of you have different agendas, and you cannot afford to push your onto her. Does that make sense?

If you start right away wanting to date her, etc., I think she'll shut you down.....and it could cause her to go on and file for D. So, you would need to take things very slowly. The WAW absolutely feels dead on the inside......just as she described the tree. I used to compare it to a flower that never received sunshine and water (her emotional needs) and finally withered and died. That is how she feels.

She may have agreed to not dating, but I think she eventually will. If the two of you can agree on some ground rules, that's good. I just think she may not stick to them. The ground rules should not be with the intent to controll each other. I'll bet it was your idea about the no dating. In this day & time, people pretty much conduct themselves as if they are already divorced. Anyway, don't tell her you will or won't do something.......hoping it will spur her to agree likewise.

It is key for you to GAL. I can't stress that enough.

I don't know what she meant by you being mean to her, but if you know, then you need to fix it.
Posted By: daybyday Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/24/16 07:38 AM
We have discussed expectations. We have one S13. I am 50 she is 45. We will split custody. It is a six month lease so we agreed to revisit it then. I don't doubt that at this time she is probably doing it to ease me into divorce. Details worked out ourselves. It was my idea about no dating, because we are technically still married. I know her words may be just that at the moment. All makes sense Sandi. Your description of her and WAW is right on. I understand about taking it slow, being friendly, and build a rapport. She didnt say mean to her as much as she didnt like me for many reasons. I will definitely work on my issues. I agree that she may just be placating me with separation. That's why I have to GAL. All makes great sense Sandi. Now, is there any hope? How big of a player is physical attraction in the whole situation? The only reason I ask is that 8 years ago I was overweight and had lost 60 lbs. and that seemed to help bring her back. I know that wasnt all but...So, thats again where I am. Overweight and I'm sure she isnt physically attracted to me. I realize that her issues with me go deeper than looks, but does it play a part? We talked for a long long time about stuff that was never brought up before. Grievances, some misconceptions, stuff we each need work on.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/24/16 08:10 AM
Quote:
Overweight and I'm sure she isnt physically attracted to me. I realize that her issues with me go deeper than looks, but does it play a part?


Physical attraction an important part. I believe the degree of importance differs with people. There is also a difference in a person losing their sense of personal pride in their appearance.....from say, a person just getting older. I have seen skinny people look pretty bad, so it's not alway about being overweight. We aren't going to look like we did when we were in our 20's, but we can look our best at whatever age we are. We have to do the best with what we have. smile For some, they take for granted their spouse will always be with them, and it's easy to let their appearances go. Have you kept the lost weight off, or did you gain it back?

Have you noticed a change in her appearance? Does she dress younger or more sexy than she use to dress? Has she changed her hair style (color, etc.). You said she seldom went anywhere, so I assume she doesn't go out partying and staying till the wee hours of the morning.

Has she talked about losing her youth, or wasting years, or anything along those lines? Did she ever seem restless, as if she were caged?

Has there been a great loss (parent, close friend)recently? Were there some unresolved issues from her childhood that you know about?
Posted By: daybyday Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/24/16 11:27 AM
I have put all of the weight back on and more. Had a ordeal with my both parents getting very sick and I just kind of shutdown. Let myself go. I guess maybe I have the attraction thing maybe going for me as I have lost about a third of what i need right now. When we filled out a questionnaire at MC last time, her number one thing was physical attraction for opposite sex.She dresses the same but changed hair style. Doesnt go out partying so doesnt stay out late. She did seem restless 8 years ago. She has said that I hold her back from life. I am not possessive. We both had our social lives and enjoyment that neither questioned. I am an introvert, she an extreme extrovert so there was problem. She liked to go out with other couples, I did not(stressful). She did say that she didnt want to wake up at age 60 and ask, "Is this all there is?" Not a great loss but a relative very close to us had and accidental shooting kill someone and is now in prison. Really hit her hard. Nothing comes to mind about childhood issues but I'm sure there is something there if she claims to be so co-dependent.


Edit above post, she did lose a close friend back in novemeber, yes.
Posted By: Si_07 Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/24/16 12:38 PM
As a relative newcomer to this whole experience, I have been on the receiving end for the past 3 months. What amazes me most of all is how someone can get so twisted and so cruel (can't think of another word for it right now). Some of the things being said to me are one thing but have found out some of the things W is saying to her family etc.. They can twist anything, it's staggering.... I thought I had been doing well to avoid as much conflict as possible but she will still rewrite the conversations and twist anything.

I never thought this person I have been with for so long could turn out like this.

I know you say they need some sort of loss or something to hit them Sandi, and I know there are many success stories out there, but man, is it ever hard to see how that may happen...
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/24/16 12:54 PM
Quote:
I know you say they need some sort of loss or something to hit them Sandi, and I know there are many success stories out there, but man, is it ever hard to see how that may happen...


Well, you may not ever know (unless she tells you) exactly what it is that hits her the hardest. It may be something that doesn't have anything directly to do with you. It could be an accumulation of things (loses). That's why we can't put a time clock on these matters. Everyone is an individual. I just know that as long as they get the best of both worlds, or they get their way about everything....they may not have to deal what they see as lost.
Posted By: Si_07 Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/24/16 01:25 PM
I understand that I may never know, I just meant that it's hard to see anything at the moment.. I get that she is a mess and all, I have just 4 more days before she is due to move out. My W is and always has been a big talker but rarely walks the walk.. Now I'm not expecting her to not move out and as much as I will miss my kids half the time, she does need to go. She seems to have friends at work that are supporting her, many that do not know me. It's just hard being portrayed as the things she is saying...
Posted By: Wrigley Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/24/16 03:00 PM
sandi thoughts on a dealing with a ww after the affair is over and she now is a waw. I believe mine used her affair as an exit affair. From what I can tell the affair part is pretty much over but she is still telling me she isn't in love anymore but wants to be friends.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/24/16 03:37 PM
I would not classify her from a WW to WAW. I think she's the results of her waywardness. It is a long, hard pull for the WW to intentionally get her heart right, let go of the years of resentment she's held against her H, start showing him respect, and stop her rebellion against what is right for a wife in a marriage.

It is very, very typical for a WW coming out of an A to not have those loving feelings for her H. They have been blocked by her other negative feelings for a long time. Then, the OM was in her heart, instead of her H. So, it takes time for her to get the OM completely out of head (even after the A ends), go through the withdrawals, and hopefully, she will feel remorse for her behavior and want to do whatever it takes to save the M.
Posted By: Wrigley Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/24/16 04:41 PM
So then the tough love approach would still applying? Or now do I try to be her friend
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/25/16 06:07 AM
I really would like to see an update on your thread before answering that question. Is your W still living in the rented house? Is the OM still staying with her? If the OM is still in the picture, then don't try to be her buddy. It places the OM in a romantic zone and it puts you in a friend zone while she continues her wayward lifestyle. She continues to get the best of both men.

If she really gets rid of the OM and stops all contact for good, then you can think about the next step, but from what I have observed in your thread, she misses her family and the life she had at home.........but has made it clear her feelings for you have not changed. I know you miss her and want her back home. I think you feel you need to help her out of the mess she created. IMO, she needs to clean up her side of the street. If you rescue her, she will be back in it again. Yes, it is painful to watch, but it is part of the process.

I strongly caution you not to take her back too quickly. She needs to do some work. If she seems regretful, ask yourself if it is b/c of the hurt it has caused you and the children, or is she feeling sorry for herself? It is an important difference. If you listen carefully, you can probably make that determination by what she says.
Posted By: daybyday Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/25/16 08:25 AM
I have a question for you Sandi. When you came out of your waywardness, had your H changed? If so what was different or did you just accept him for him.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/25/16 09:06 AM
As I have told others, the unusual thing about my situation was that it wasn't the LBH who came here looking for help. I was the one who stumbled around and "accidentally" found my way to the DB board. So, my H did not get the tools that are given here. The work was on me. He really did not change and I basically had to accept him as he was. His health took a serious dive and our lives had to adjust again when he was forced into retirement, due to his health. There was a time that I don't know if I could have dealt with all that I am facing right now, but I think I am doing pretty good. The person who changed in my MR was "me". smile
Posted By: Ojap Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/25/16 09:38 AM
Huge props Sandi. It is obvious that most people don't take responsibility for themselves...much less their MR.

You give out so much wisdom...it should be noted that you ROCK. And I'm so glad to have your experience to shed light on my path. If you're a person of faith...I would say you have found your 'calling'. Thanks for the hope and wisdom you bring to our lives!
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/25/16 10:11 AM
Ah, thank you so much, Pajo! That's very encouraging to hear.
Posted By: Wrigley Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/25/16 10:35 AM
I think the om left her but still has his furniture at her house because he hasn't found a place to live besides his parents. She claims they are done but are still friends. She still lives in the rented house and has told me she isn't in love anymore.

I told her we can't be friends and that that's a long way off for me. We were doing a little hanging out with the boys and small communication but it was messing me up so I stopped it.

She has agreed to come into to my counsellors office together Monday but it was at the request of my counselor and I think she is seeing it as a way to clear the air and move forward as co parents. Not any type of marriage counseling.

She came to me a few weeks ago crying about how bad her life is, how depressed she is. All about her. Telling me she didn't want to lead me on but pouring out her heart. I fell for it too. Thinking it was some kind of sign. It's not and I read your posts about that afterwards.

Her dogs go lost the day after I told her I couldn't be her friend and she called and texted me frantically all day. I ignored the calls and text and finally that night responded and said "I'm out with friends, not my concern any longer".
Posted By: Wrigley Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/25/16 10:39 AM
It's also more excuses and now she's saying she's been unhappy all along. Well then why did you have kids if you were so unhappy? Just typical rewriting the marital history. Blameshiffing everything
Posted By: JujuB Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/25/16 11:00 AM
Hi Sandi

Thank you for this thread. Your willingness to be open up about your mistakes and to help others, shows the type of person you are.

There are so many differences between the ways males and females communicate and even on their needs and expectations throughout the marriage.

Surely there must be a difference in the WAH and WAW? I actually asked about this when I first came on these boards. But very little about it.

Would love a thread about WH vs WAH. Although I don't believe we have any veterans on here that could speak on behalf of a husband that left their marriage.

The only thing I do notice is that WAH/WH seem to follow wives paying more attention to kids, career stresses and mother issues? It also seems rare for husband to leave unless OW involved (in my case, I have absolutely no proof or indication of OW)

Some people say that WAH has a better chance of returning then WAW? Or perhaps in many cases, WAH doesn't actually walk away but detaches and distances and stonewalls himself so much that the wife eventually becomes WW?

I have to say, when you described WW as being dead on inside, it reminded me so much of my husband.
Posted By: Wrigley Re: Sandi's Reflections - 02/25/16 02:57 PM
Sandi I also want to tell you thanks. You're post and information have been so valuable to me in seeing the insight of a ww and how I should be handling things. Ty for the time you take
Posted By: TimR Re: Sandi's Reflections - 03/01/16 07:20 AM
Sandi, Thank you so much for your posts through out this board. Obviously you offer a unique perspective of being on the other side of the fence.

I would like to ask a huge favor and ask your advise regarding my sitch. I have so many questions that I would like to pick your brain about but the most pressing is whether I should go for custody.

My WW has specifically told me she does not want me in any way. And is recently going public with her A. While the differences in OM and WW certainly indicate it will never work out, I do not know that the M will ever be able to be saved.

I have two stepsons whom I love dearly. She and MIL has poisoned the relationship between me and S16 however relationship between me and S13 is even stronger. He has text me about living with me. He has asked me in person about living with me and he has told other parents he just wants to live with me.

WW will not allow me to spend time with him outside of sports and has started consistently threatening to push me out of his life altogether.

Even though I am a L, I spoke to another L to get her advice. She said I could get significant time with S13 but didn't know about 50/50 since I am not biological.

There is a lot more to my thread that I will not take more space on this thread about. I could just really use your insight.
Posted By: 1313 Re: Sandi's Reflections - 03/02/16 02:09 PM
I seem to have about half NGS, but a lot of things don't apply. Often I've stood my ground and gotten an apology from the W. But I can certainly say one thing that she mentioned in her litany of complaints (it was like she had a script) was when I would joke at a party or something "I'm Mr. her name"

So yeah, a lot of the nice guy things apparently irked her. And towards the end I was walking on egg shells and doing whatever I could for her.

But at least until things started getting bad, I would tell her I don't have time for something if I didn't. But sadly, I enjoyed doing things for her and when it came to her business, would bend over backwards to accommodate.

What's weird is that the W's assistant actually verbalized (well text-ilized?) about my manhood. It came 10 days after last contact - and out of the blue she said something to the effect "I've been going through my old texts - and you sure whine a lot for a man" - "then again you're not a man!". Oddly, my texts weren't whining but telling her I did what they had asked, and I'm done. Have a nice life.

I figure since the assistant has been acting as a proxy for the W, this is probably coming indirectly from the W.

Oh, did I say that she started reading romance novels about 2 years ago - and I could see a change in the way she related to me after several months? I never put 2 and 2 together, but honestly it's the same as porno - well it is porno - but with a fantasy that plays into the WW mentality.

Guys, if your W's start reading romance novels - step in and do something. Just my opinion.
Posted By: Cadet Re: Sandi's Reflections - 03/02/16 02:16 PM
Originally Posted By: 1313
Guys, if your W's start reading romance novels - step in and do something. Just my opinion.

And what would you suggest to do?
Posted By: Sparkls Re: Sandi's Reflections - 03/02/16 03:03 PM
I'll just say as someone who has read a decent amount of romance novels, I always knew that that is not reality. No real relationship is like that,
What I will say is that for me I started reading them because my libido was gone (due to depression ) and I was looking for *anything* to spark it back up. My WH did nothing cause apparently he was off doing someone else the whole time.

My suggestion : if your wife is reading them, ask what she gets out of them. Maybe it's something you can share?
I take the same stance on porn. I don't believe porn is bad. I think it can be a healthy part of any relationship. But you just have to ask what you're using it for. It's a tool. Just like all the other bedroom toys you may use.
Posted By: 1313 Re: Sandi's Reflections - 03/02/16 07:01 PM
Originally Posted By: Cadet
Originally Posted By: 1313
Guys, if your W's start reading romance novels - step in and do something. Just my opinion.

And what would you suggest to do?


I think at the very least - I would have said I was uncomfortable with the content of some of these. Discussed it with her, and let her explain it to me. I could have asked how she'd feel if I were looking at online porno - something I've always avoided. It's possible I could have nipped something in the bud - perhaps not.

Being the trusting type I never really paid attention at first. I should have looked sooner to tell you the truth.

I remember a popular Lady radio personality psychologist (the W used to listen to and follow in her moral days) called them porno and trouble and tantamount to cheating. I laughed it off.

Granted, some seem pretty tame, but there were a couple that were - wow. Pretty graphic. These were literally coming in on my Kindle as for the longest time I used my W's prime account. I just madly deleted them instead of looking.

Towards the end - before things started getting bad - I expressed my dislike and called them porn. She had started getting very distant, I can't remember if this was before or after she moved out of the bedroom because of her "sore back". She scoffed at my feelings - yeah, things were slipping by then.

She's always been an avid reader - and loved pulpy sorts of things. For years she read all kinds of mystery novels, and I bought her dozens and turned her on to many authors. I researched lots of historical type mysteries, which she liked.
Posted By: 1313 Re: Sandi's Reflections - 03/02/16 07:14 PM
I wish I were still talking with her. I would certainly ask. And perhaps that's why she was doing it. To tell you the truth - we had lots of bedroom problems, although I don't know if I'd call it that (but it was). She went through early menopause, and her desire dropped like a rock. It was a tough time for a few years, but I just got used to it.

Also, I didn't like her drinking - and she'd want to do it once she was blotto. I hated that because sometimes she wouldn't remember - and often she'd fall asleep. So yeah, it was bad for a while.

Then, my own libido started to fade - and I talked to the doctor. I started on the testosterone. The problem I had was then I was horny - and she wasn't. So I stopped. One benefit was an improved mood and memory. She was complaining a LOT about my memory - but then I began to notice it wasn't my memory. I think this was the beginning of Sandi's "finding reasons and things that bug me".

Anyway, so for about 3 years perhaps longer, things were sporadic at best. It completely stopped a year and a half ago. But now I know that was when the W made her decision. She might not have been aware of it herself, but her desire for me was dead at that point. Funny how somebody else sparked that again. Also - and I think this has a LOT to do with it - she went on a health kick, and as a result stopped drinking (for the most part). I think that she wouldn't be able to connect the dots in her state of mind to notice her increased libido might have something to do with that.

I've always been incredibly supportive of her health "issues", no gluten, always some sort of vitamin kick, cooking a certain way (I did all the cooking) - helped her with vegetable fasts etc. But then with the OM and maybe a MLC (who knows), she started an exercise program and weight loss thing a friend had success with. Started walking, a lot. Got invisalign braces - I haven't seen her for almost 2 months, but I'm sure she looks like she hasn't in many years.

Very sad for me - it took somebody else to do this.

Anyway, sorry for getting off track. I've been doing that a lot.

Yeah, I wish I was in communication with her - I'm sure the romance novels are helping her with her new squeeze.
Posted By: Sparkls Re: Sandi's Reflections - 03/02/16 07:26 PM
Don't worry, they're not. Because again, they aren't reality. Just like you can't learn how to be good in bed by watching porn.
But yes, I noticed the same things in my WH much more recently. I started this diet and he was all gung-ho about it. Claimed it was to be super supportive of me but it actually really bothered me how into it he got. Like he's this scrawny 150lb guy doing this crash diet "to support me." He had a little bit of a belly but really nothing I thought he needed to lose.
Oh, and his "friend" (really his OW) came over to my house when I was out of town one night and made him a diet friendly dinner. That really bugged me. But I didn't say anything. Just mentioned that it was weird. Now it all makes sense. Of course, the irony is she didn't even do it right. Somehow thought "gluten free" pasta was no carb.
I know you're struggling 13. We all are. Just know you're not alone. WE'll get through this! .
Posted By: Sparkls Re: Sandi's Reflections - 03/02/16 07:30 PM
I just realized how vague that first sentence was. DOn't worry, the romance novels are in no way helping her with her OM. Because they're pure fiction. If she expects real men to act that way, she'll be sorely disappointed. As far as upper her libido, maybe. but that'll fade too, just like the butterflies for the OM will. That's chemistry at its finest. Keep releasing the same neurotransmitters and they actually stop being effective as your neurons decrease the number of receptors.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - 03/03/16 04:50 AM
Thanks to each of you for participating on this tread. Also, thank you for your kind words of encouragement in how something said on one of my posts helped.

It is time to close this thread, as it has 100 posts.

New thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2773301#Post2773301


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