This is my third thread. I'm linking to the next to last page of the 2nd thread because I think that was 'interesting' or perhaps its simply 'depressing'. I don't know. Either way, here's the new thread.
...oonza...oonza...oonza...let's get this party started...o yeah
Bs 10-Week Bootcamp (2nd thread) October 11 (1st thread)
Let's get you straightened out on this thread, Bfice. Let's dedicate this thread to ZERO pursuit. Mmmmkay?
Fair enough. I was just reading your thread Thornton and you were saying how maybe your WAW just isn't right for you. And vanilla's messages about the scorpion. I mean, I definitely get the feeling that I'm being stung sometimes, but in my case I'm the one that is/has been the addict. Plus, I'm the super-codependent and my wife isn't. Long story short, I just keep feeling like it's wrong for me to simply let go of her. Logically it makes nothing but complete sense...but I still just feel like I shouldn't.
So, yeah. I'm heading back in to no contact mode. I'll keep updates periodically, and come in and journal.
A few little bits of what did happen today:
1.) D(15) started looking to schedule classes for junior year high school. She wants to take three electives: piano, chorus, theater 3. She's never played the piano, and she's never sung. Wife is a civil engineer and I'm an architect. We both value the sciences quite a bit. But our D(15) just really has never much of an aptitude for it. So, the WW apparently told my daughter that her electives were, in my daughter's words, "f'ing jerk off classes" and that my D(15) should drop at least two of them. Of course D(15) was crying when she told me this.
I talked to her for a good long while and I think I made her feel better. Not about what my WW said really, because I can't fix that. (It was funny though because D said, "It's just that everything and every opinion I have she just says things that are so hurtful." and I had to just nod and say, "I know, she does it to me too.") But anyway, I told D that I wanted her to be happy but that being happy isn't always about doing what's easy. Told her to listen to the voice in her head. Said right now I want to go buy a whole cheesecake and eat it, but I know that's the right thing to do. Listen to your voice in your head. And make choices in life that will keep as many doors open for you as long as you can. (I think I did just a tiny bit better than my wife...but who knows)
2.) While on the phone with D(15) WW asked to speak with S(9). Apparently she is talking to him about a girl in his class who is in a divorced family and WW told S(9) he can talk to this girl if he likes. I agree 100% with the talking and communication, but I am somewhat concerned about where my wife is coming from in this.
Then about an hour later, somehow, seemingly out of the blue, S(9) mentions that WW said her last name was her maiden name the other night at home. Both of the girls said they didn't remember that, so perhaps I'm making mountains out of mole-hills. But at either rate, its all completely out of my control.
So....
Yes. ZERO pursuit. Focus on me. Focus on the kids. Focus on work, studying, and recovery.
I agree with what TX Hubby said in your last thread B, that your wife doesn't sound like a very nice woman, at least not now. Do you think she might be going thru a mid life crisis? My ex went thru a MLC (probably is still in it
), and, while he was never the most demonstrative or kind person, it turned him into kind of a vindictive, nasty, cruel monster for a while. Rough times!
It about broke my heart to read about your poor kids suffering so, and your daughter crying because your wife decided not to let her go to the concert in New Orleans (and blaming it on you!), and mocking your daughter's choices for electives. It's sad how many of the spouses on here use their kids to hurt the LBS. Sad....
Have you worked the trip out with your wife yet? She does not seem to be hearing that you don't mind if she takes them to New Orleans; you just want to make sure that you get to keep your son at another time for the same number of days. Losing six days of custody is a big deal in a state that determines custody arrangements by the number of nights that a child spends with each parent over the course of the separation.
Stand strong. Don't worry about all that crap she is threatening you with either - saying in court that you are an alcoholic, drug addict and thief. And also threatening to get her mom to lie about you in court. Just more threatening BS to try to get her way. You can show that you are in AA and have not had a drink in 4 months yesterday! Congratulations!
I definitely get the feeling that I'm being stung sometimes, but in my case I'm the one that is/has been the addict. Plus, I'm the super-codependent and my wife isn't. Long story short, I just keep feeling like it's wrong for me to simply let go of her. Logically it makes nothing but complete sense...but I still just feel like I shouldn't.
Go back and read what you advised your daughter. It applies to you here too!
Yes. ZERO pursuit. Focus on me. Focus on the kids. Focus on work, studying, and recovery.
By jove I think you've got it!
Hey RosaLinda, thank you. Its always great to hear from you.
So, I have a bit of an update. I had an opportunity this afternoon to do some snooping. I know that I probably shouldn't have, but I just couldn't resist the possibility of learning the truth about who and what my wife is. So, she left her old cell phone in a bag and I found it and tried to log in...but of course the stupid PIN code lock she put on it kept me out. But...I also found her black book with addresses and stuff. So, I started flipping through there.
I found a page in the back with a list of pros and cons.
Without embarrassing myself, I will simply say that there are two dates written that are less than a month from our separation where she says 'Fell Apart' and then two days later, on her birthday 'He Left Me'. On the pros side there is acknowledgement of things that would only be discussed if a person was discussing genitalia. And the statement 'He Says He Loves Me'. As well as 'Would Make a Good Husband'.
None of that is proof of anything in particular, but there are conversations that I overheard back when I was living in the house that I know these discussions were happening. At the time I even asked her about it, and she lied and said she was talking to her sister.
So...
So, basically she got a new job and fell in love with her coworker and started having sex with him. She took me on a date with this guy and his wife too! Told me we would become friends. Then she throws me out of the house and I'm guessing starts making her move to make her affair a real relationship. When, apparently he decided he would rather stay married. So, it ended. I do think its over. But, I don't think my WW is any closer to wanting me.
So...
Here's the thing. I'm calm right now, but I'm sitting on a thunder keg. I need someone to explain to me in simple terms why it is best to not let her know that I know about this. And, I guess...if anyone can offer a valid reason on how and when a marriage rebuilt after infidelity could possibly ever have trust and love again?
I mean...I now know a lot more about the extent to which she has been lying to me, and frankly it is astounding how accomplished she is at being to lie. (Although, perhaps I'm just a big dummy and unable to see the truth.)
I gotta tell you this hurts. But maybe...maybe now I have the information I need to finally feel okay in letting this woman go. I just simply am blown away at her actions.
God...grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
Now is not the time to react because you are emotionally charged. You will say and do things that can have irreperable consequences.
An affair is just a symptom of the problem, not the problem itself. I know that doesnt make you feel better.
You are going to need to digest this somehow. In the meantime, I will let others w more experience chime in.
Just breathe for now.
Firstly I want to say to you that your sobriety and the things you are doing are to be highly commended. In these difficult circumstances you are going to AA and staying sober. This is the most important gift you have for yourself and your family.
It is a very short period of time.
The day the alcoholic decides to remove their sting seems like to them their addiction is over. I do not think compulsives and addicts understand that is the day their loved ones usually fall into disruption and disrepair. It is the day that most spouses start with their anger.
It takes a long time for spouses of addicts to begin to repair themselves from the damage done to themselves and their family. They see further work involved and feel that they can go no more, the risk of investing in recovery of their addict and their R to be disappointed again is too much to bear. It takes time and detachment to resolve. They need their space and time, sometimes the spouse isn't even ready for step 1. Acceptance that addiction is in control. Often they can't even think of 12 stepping. It takes too much pain.
You can expect that your W may take up to 2 years to get to step 4. That is usual and she may not yet even see codependency or her need for boundaries. She will protect herself. Know this that is a consequence of your addictive behaviour. Your responsibility.
It is also your responsibility to learn to set boundaries for acceptable behaviour and to gently reinforce them.
So stop, give W space. Stop the blame game, it isn't helping either you or W. Too much focus on whether there is an OM whether W is wayward. I personally don't read wayward as primary, I read anger and a desire to push forward with her independence. I understand it, I really do, if a spouse lives with an addict in full mode then that's where it comes from. I know you read Thornton's thread, and imagine if the way Thornton's significant other behaves is how your W sees you.
I think it would help you to rework steps 1 to 3 of your twelve step program. I can't see that the implication of those steps has hit you yet. Have you a mentor? That is vital to you.
I do not see you are ready to begin MC.
This is support from V, addiction is tough and very hard on families.
I also suggest you read about being the child of an alcoholic, your children are the children of an alcoholic. Sobriety for such a short time is not atonement. To atone takes great courage and humility. I don't see it nor do I read that you understand the damage done by addiction by the addict to the family.
It is very painful when the addict hits acceptance, it can send them back to their addiction. It is the first step.
I believe you have a great deal of work to do on you.
Secondly there are physiological issues that need addressing. Substance addicts invariably have poor health especially if they smoke. Nutritional deficiencies and you say you have lost a lot of weight. Know your numbers, get your health, liver function and thyroid tested. Kidney damage is also common.
That is just to start with. You need extreme care of you.
Let's also consider the body mind spirit interaction, this will take at least 9 months before the after effects start to improve significantly viz:
When heavy drinkers suddenly stop or significantly reduce their alcohol consumption, the neurotransmitters previously suppressed by alcohol are no longer suppressed. They rebound, resulting in a phenomenon known as brain hyperexcitability. So, the effects associated with alcohol withdrawal -- anxiety, irritability, agitation, tremors, seizures, and DTs -- are the opposite of those associated with alcohol consumption.
There will be longer term indicators of this too. I think it would help you to understand that much of your hyper reactivity and mood swings are related to your addiction and the consequences of it. It may take several months before this settles, and this may take longer if you do not take great care of you.
You need hyper nutrition strategies, gentle exercise and honest GAL with men and women of all ages who do ordinary activities. A hobby or pursuit in a club of your choice perhaps, volunteering at a school or charity, rotary or something to give back.
Dating is not good GAL and if I were W, that would make me think scorpion, so much damage and he dates?
Dark is not good. Validation is important.
You are rushing, it's in the nature of compulsives, you have time take it.
This is a long haul and there is much work to do with 12 steps and DB, exams.
Now I tell you extreme self care.
Breathe, calm and serenity.
One day at a time
V
Vanilla, thank you so much for taking the time to write all of that out. You just broke me down man. I heard your words as they were intended...but man...everything just came crashing down for me. You are right...I do have a ton of work to do just on me.
I will come back and post more...I can't do it in any way that makes sense right now. But, I just wanted to say that you made a huge impact, and I really appreciate it.
I'll be back when I have some time to gather my thoughts.
Tough day today.
Take your time, let your thoughts marinade.
Speak to your AA mentor and try to relax. This is good, and yes whilst I am not compulsive I have been involved with recovery enough to know how important this phase is.
When shift happens and I hope nearer acceptance that is enormous. You will move forward.
One day at a time, today is a good day when it is a day of awakening.
V
Vanilla are you saying that B's wife cheating on him is all his fault? I'm feeling sort of protective here, and certainly do not know as much about addictions as you do from living with your gambling and abusive husband (see, I have read your threads a lot, and FOO Led too
)....but this seems a little harsh to me.
The day the alcoholic decides to remove their sting seems like to them their addiction is over. I do not think compulsives and addicts understand that is the day their loved ones usually fall into disruption and disrepair. It is the day that most spouses start with their anger.
I'm sure B does NOT think his alcoholism is over. And his wife's anger and cheating started well
before B started going to AA. She also kicked him out of the house. The day he admitted his addiction was not the day she "started with her anger;" it was her anger that forced him to face his addiction.
You can expect that your W may take up to 2 years to get to step 4. That is usual and she may not yet even see codependency or her need for boundaries. She will protect herself. Know this that is a consequence of your addictive behaviour. Your responsibility.
So stop, give W space. Stop the blame game, it isn't helping either you or W. Too much focus on whether there is an OM whether W is wayward. I personally don't read wayward as primary, I read anger and a desire to push forward with her independence. I understand it, I really do, if a spouse lives with an addict in full mode then that's where it comes from.
I am looking at the 12 Steps online while reading this. They are great, and as a Christian, I have had to do 2 through 11 many times. A lot of people on this forum, especially Mach and URWorthy, helped me with #4 (the searching and fearless moral self-inventory) -- it's a much needed step in the DBing process. And Cadet helped me to understand my own codependency and enabling. B is new to this process
and AA, and is doing the best he can right now to move thru these steps, accept his faults.
But I don't think it is 100% B's fault or responsibility. B needs to take responsibility for only his 50% of the problems in his marriage. Living with an alcoholic, or a gambler, or an abuser, does NOT give one license to cheat and lie. It's just not right, Vanilla.
I believe that B's wife is having a mid life crisis -- maybe due to his alcoholism, that could be possible, right? Will this make a difference? A MLC is due to depression mainly, and she has a lot of the symptoms - your quote "anger and a desire to push forward with independence" are signs, as well as unhappiness with life, feeling a need for change, doubt about ever loving B, desire for a new intimate relationship, confusion. Lashing out at B and the kids. Lying constantly. She is not now ready to go thru these al-anon steps, but I believe the reason is that she is mired in the stew of MLC confusion and self absorption. It seems to me that an al-anon wife would need a mind-set that is equally humble and open as that of her AA husband, and throwing in a MLC might make that unobtainable.
Here's the thing. I'm calm right now, but I'm sitting on a thunder keg. I need someone to explain to me in simple terms why it is best to not let her know that I know about this. And, I guess...if anyone can offer a valid reason on how and when a marriage rebuilt after infidelity could possibly ever have trust and love again?
Yes, of course a marriage can be rebuilt after infidelity. But it would take a lot of AA Step # 4 on both sides, as well as humbly and honestly asking and giving forgiveness. A true change of heart on both sides.
Why shouldn't you tell her you know? Mainly because it won't make a difference. She will continue to lie, and to rationalize and justify her actions to herself. She is not ready to face the truth B. And Thornton is right, "An affair is just a symptom of the problem, not the problem itself."
God...grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
Amen!
Rosa linda
That is not my argument. W A is her choice of course.
When spouses live with compulsives and addicts they often decide enough, they walk mentally long before they have an A. Moving on from an addict isn't an easy thing.
I don't know enough about MLC to say, however often spouses of addicts pick transitional partners to give them strength. I have seen it often, sometimes it is friends or family that give the intervention. Sometimes the exposure of their children to addiction is enough. They choose to move on and need the support. They need out from their R. The reason is the addiction, that is the root of it.
Sometimes the addict picks up on that with a jolt, and knows the spouse has moved on. At that point they give up their addiction.
The addictive substance or the behaviour is as damaging as an A. Often the behaviour is MLC in the addict.
So after having lived with an addict in free fall, an S decided enough move on they say My partners A and EA was alcohol, that was his OW. There has been an A with an OW called addiction. It's over enough and LRT. The money you spend on this OW alcohol is depriving the family, the time you spend, the involvement with it. The lies, manipulation and lack of R, poor sex life, anger, putting you to bed drunk, clearing up your mess in the kitchen and bathroom. Your poor performance at work, and lack of memory for things. The inability to discuss anything to do with your OW and I know her name its addiction.
The addict gives up his OW called alcohol, gambling, porn, or drugs etc. Immediately his W is in MLC or wayward.
Because they decided to move on from an addict?
This W evaluated an A partner to transition. Her choice of course.
I sit in 12 step meetings I hear week after week of struggles and standing of those with partners who cheat with their addiction with money, resources, time, themselves, eventually spouses go enough, they mentally go no more.
Their addicts say no please don't cease to stand. I will change, I will give up my OP, my gambling, my drugs, my alcohol etc.
On other occasions loved ones walk in at crisis and say I can no longer cope alone, the damage is too much, the cash is going to the OP, the time and the attention is going to your addiction which is your OP.
So yes, the A or the EA is the spouses responsibility for them. The environment created is heavily influenced by the addict, if they remember what they do during their addictive phase.
An addict can't just say I gave up my addiction and the fact you my S moved on is being MLC or being wayward because the decision I made was to change. We spouses and loved ones of addicts are human after all, the addicts choice was their addiction. That was their OP of choice, their EA or their A.
If the recovering addict or compulsive treats their spouse as wayward, goes dark, blames and points to the spouse as wayward then it is my experience that the spouse will not only walk but run. I have seen posts here where the LBS has had an A, given up the A, their spouse moved on and then the LBS says wayward! Pot kettle black.
The recovering addict (who has my full support by the way, absolutely, it is one of the toughest roads) can work the steps, including atone, just as if the addiction is an A. And stop the blame. And in 12 step open meetings several addicts have chosen V as their sponsor, so yes I mentor addicts as well as their loved ones. You don't chose V as your sponsor unless you really want to give up your addiction! I work the steps. (This is called a sober sponsor).
Tough talk of the hurting spouse of the addict is likely to drive them away if they lived with addiction for a long time and they stood for a long time during the addiction.
This is my experience of it. Spouses who are not 12 stepping can really struggle, they really want out of living with an alcoholic or gambler or ........
I lived with a gambler for 4 years (also an alcoholic at the end) just suppose he decided to give up gambling and alcohol just as I had LRT and had a boyfriend. Then started telling me I am wayward or MLC.
Remember this W asked him to move out, asking an addict in full mode to move out creates guilt. I recollect telling my WH to move on in March 2014, when he sobered up he didn't remember any of it. I DB and his drinking got worse, his cash went to his addictions, it was only when I said no more cash WH left in a tirade of abuse, that was May 2015. I stand for M so am not wayward. However younger spouses feel able to LRT, they are not in my book wayward. They are just done.
So this behaviour is Ws, I do not condone it, I understand her position. She is the LBS with a WH whose OP is called addiction and she called time. The WH gave up his OP and wants his W back, because his W is LRT then she is MLC or Wayward?
I think it likely she moved on and was LRT, with the wrong A partner. Such spouses are vulnerable.
From my understanding this M has an excellent chance of R.
why?
Spouses of addicts don't hang on this long unless there is real love involved.
Linda
both need repair and to DB. At present there is great sobriety and I offer my full support on this. I really believe this M can repair if there is true compassion by both. There is true love in this.
I am a romantic, and have seen this too.
V
B
I am more than comfortable being your online sober mentor, any time you need. I will do my very best with 12 steps with you as required.
I internet promise.
I am not blaming you for your W behaviour, her A or EA is her choice over which you had no control. If there comes an appropriate time then she may benefit from Alanon. If it read that way that wasn't my intention.
I can not analyse if your W is in MLC, although I do think she was LRT before she had her fling. I think as a result of her anger.
Hugs
V
Vanilla and Rosa, unfortunately I still don't have a lot of time to sit down and read and think and make a good response. But I do want to take a few seconds to let you know I see the discussion and I appreciate both of your viewpoints. I do think that my WW may be in the throws of MLC, however I don't know enough to be able to say. I also don't know if the new evidence I found is really proof of a sexual affair, but its definitely proof of a good solid EA. Whatever, its immaterial. I agree about the affair being a symptom...I understand it and ultimately I need to be focused on myself and not her.
That leads me to the message I came here to right. What I got when I read Vanilla's message yesterday was simply that I was regressing...I have been trying to control things...I have still not accepted my powerlessness...I have not truly embraced or learned humility...
I have been full of shame...and full of self-doubt...and self-loathing...woe is me...poor pitiful me. And though, I have remained sober for the past 4 months, my inability to progress into the acceptance of my situation has stalled me quite a bit.
It's so weird writing this all out...because logically when I sit down and quickly type like this I am able to see or dictate my issues...yet somehow there is this divide that occurs when I start to act, when I move into being...I don't have the words to accurately describe...but its like I will stand up from this laptop and become blind immediately.
Vanilla, yes please, I would love to have an online contact to discuss these issues. I need to come back and have a serious discussion about addiction, because, I think alcohol is only one of a series of destructive habits I have that I have apparently been doing to myself since before I was a teenager. In other words...I recognize alcohol has been a problem for me...and I don't want to minimize the way I let it control so many of my actions...however, even sober I still find ways to self-medicate...or avoid reality.
Lastly...I want to say, the big thing. The things that made me break down from Vanilla's post is the fact that I think I may have realized for the first time...truly...that the faults in my marriage really do stem from me in many ways. Yes, my WW has many faults that I and my children can see. But...so do I. And, I need to worry less about her faults. Worry less about who's to blame. Worry less about why she is doing this...and I need to simply focus on me. I know it keeps getting said here over and over...and I will probably forget it over and over...but I need to accept my faults...and openly admit and address them...or else I will never be able to heal and will be doomed to repeat this scenario.
So, thank you both. And I will find time tomorrow to re-read a lot of this and make quotes and share more. But I just wanted to take a quick few minutes to respond. I hope you both have a great weekend for what's left of it, and thank you again for the honest words and thoughtful responses!
B-
Vanilla
The only thing I disagree about is the definition of wayward.
This is when someone starts to date or have a relationship while still married or in another relationship.
V - of course you are not wayward as you are not in another relationship.
My suggestion is to get divorced first.
Cadet
Yes I do agree that's how ideally it should be, what do you do if you can't get a D but are truly S?
My WH is going to make me wait 5 years, on the basis I will be worth more when we do D. I may never see or hear from him again. I filed for D which he did not acknowledge, he then cross filed which I did. If I date (not saying I will, although I may in the next five years) then I definitely will not consider myself wayward.
In Ireland (RD) it takes 5 years. In some parts of the world or in some faiths there is no D for women.
To my mind once there is S and a couple are living apart, no intention to R, then LRT sets in.
If your SO tells you get lost, no R, then one is free to date in my book. They sacked you as their partner. Often in addiction this happens, a SSM.
Wayward to me is an out of control EA or PA or series usually with someone in an M or R, or out hunting for a liaison. It implies need and addiction without confirmation of S. Even living together.
B we will work out a resolution, whatever happens and I am reluctant to speak for the amazing Rosa Linda although her generosity of spirit is apparent, I suggest we both offer you support in this.
You are doing fine, it sounds to me step one is carved and climbed on.
V
Hey Vanilla, And RosaLinda, and anyone else following along or would like to respond.
Am I okay? I don't know. I guess I can say yes. Today is officially 4 months sober. And interestingly I got a very nice text message from a friend. He's a great guy who is the dad in one of our old married friends families...they have a S(9) in our son's class and a D(11) in our daughters class. He and I went to the Daddy Daughter dance together with our daughters on Saturday, and we had a good time. I mentioned in passing at dinner that today was going to be my 4 month sobriety date, and he remembered and sent me a very nice text this morning. It really went a long way to put me in a very good mood. I was very appreciative and told him so.
So, that was good. The weather is nice today, and that's good too. I've been to two AA meetings in as many days now, and that was very good. I had a really great conversation with an old guy Mike last night and it was very comforting.
I'm going to kind of change tack here, and journal, but if everyone is okay, I going to make this about me...and not really my MR or lack there of.
I think I mentioned that I've been seeing this codependency therapist...and its really helping to open my eyes. Vanilla, your first post was also a great reminder. So many things are converging and really, I'm seeing that my focus just has to be on me. After all, I am the only thing I can have any control over.
What I've learned. I am a very flawed individual that has been carrying around a lot of pain for a very long time. My parents got divorced when I was 3 years old (my brother was a year old or less). My dad I believe was a drug addict amongst other issues. He left and never came back. I do have a memory of going bowling with him and I know that was in Texas so I would have had to have been in either kindergarten or 1st grade. I also have a memory where he came for my brother and I's birthdays (2 days apart) when I was in the 2nd grade in Louisiana. He brought a remote control airplane on a line that you spin in a circle and I crashed it in a basketball goal. And...that was the last time I ever saw him. I do know his name. And I have searched online a number of times, and I think he still lives in Texas, but really not certain. He hasn't made any contact at all over the years, no letters, no phone calls, nothing. My brother actually has zero memories of him at all.
In addition to him being absent, no one on my biological fathers side of the family ever was a part of our family ever. I never met or really even know if he has/had brothers, sisters, parents, etc. At one point, somehow it came out that perhaps he had a daughter in a 2nd or 3rd marriage.
So that covers half of my family history. I always felt it like a huge hole in my soul. Just this giant void that, frankly, had to be ignored, because it was taboo to speak about it in front of my Mom or Step-dad or Grandmother. My brother and I have our fathers last name...which is weird isn't it? (I'm literally just now for the very first time asking that question.) That is weird. I'm pretty sure my mom went back to using her maiden name and then when I was in 4th or 5th grade she got re-married and took that name. But my brother and I always had our fathers name. I don't know...maybe that's normal. But the whole identity of being a male with my last name was this thing that was a stigma growing up (in my head). My life, my family, and my identity, as I made friends and acquaintances growing up, was always difficult to describe or be honest about. It became easier to simply have a 'story' to tell people that was simple to explain and digest. But, without realizing it, I was making that void worse.
So, here's an irony that I now have a very small and uncelebrated amount of pride. My father-in-law is big into genealogy and heritage and as such he does this ancestry.com thing all the time. Well, a couple of years ago he started adding or searching for things about my family. And guess what?
This is so freaking weird.
The man that was a giant hole in my life...the most obvious missing person in my life, my father...well...apparently there is exists a true lineage of males from (now) my son, through me, on to my father, his father, and his father, and his father, and directly on until around A.D. 1300 in England!?!?#$!?! Wait...wtf? Seriously? Yes. The men in my family have literally had a son every single generation for over 700 years and handed their name down father to son.
I don't know...I've told two different 'friends' about that and they were both less than impressed. And ultimately, it means nothing...but to me...in a weird way, it meant everything, and yet, was again at the same just another reminder at how messed up my personal identity is.
I'm going to stop this post now because every thing is being traced in red.
I don't know who will be reading this, but this is therapeutic for me, so I'm going to continue...
So, above I discussed my biological father.
Now, I'm going to go into my mom. I was raised by mom as single mother and have a lot memory's of her as that. Arguably, I could even say that her identity never really moved past being a single mother even after she re-married. She married my step-dad when I was in about 4th grade. She was a Baylor graduate, speech pathologist. My step-dad was a potential high school graduate who worked at GM as a factory worker all his life. They were oil and water, but who knows, maybe it worked.
My mom's parents divorced I think all through the 1980's. By all accounts they had a very long, drawn out painful divorce. The end result being my mom and her mom on one side, with my mom's sister and my mom's dad on the other side. For a while, like maybe 3 years, there was a period where we (my brother and I) would go to live at my aunt's house for a week or two during the summer. Probably age 6-8 or something. But beyond that there was zero contact with my aunt or her sons until I was 18. Similar situation with my mom's dad. I have a few memories of seeing him when I was young, but then nothing for well over a decade.
The thing about all of this isolation or separation is that after growing up like that...and experiencing it...even when I would see my grandfather many years later, I felt many strong emotions of love towards him, but at the same time there was now this huge, awkward, wall or distance that existed. I wanted to love him. I wanted to know and respect him. But something inside me told me not to get too close. And, so I never did. As I got older, I knew that I was an adult and I had a choice to interact with my family members who had been absent so much in my life. And that if I didn't, then it was me who wasn't doing it. But still...something inside of me always felt self-pity...and would scream, "They never loved me. They were never there for me. Why should I be there for them now?"
My aunt. My mom's sister. Had two sons. Each had their own biological father, and they were both raised, and we were all told, that a third man (who coincidentally had the same first name as the 2nd son) was both of their biological fathers. The only reason I know this, is because at some point, my mom took it upon herself to bring her nephew, my cousin, to our house and tell him this in front of all of us.
My grandmother. My mom's mom. This lady. I love her to death, but she was tough as nails. She scared me some as a kid. She was a fantastic cook and to this day I will swear up and down that she could put out the very best Thanksgiving Day spread that any of you have ever had. She was a poor as dirt (self-admitted) family and earned everything she ever had working as a woman in a man's world. We always thought she was 'rich' because she had a swimming pool and lived on a country club. My grandmother was the 'matriarch' of our family and would use her will and money as a means to control people. I do think she genuinely loved me, but her love often came with rules. She was a good woman. A tough woman. But, she definitely contributed to many of my mom's issues and also directly to my own. She was very active in our lives even though she lived 4 hours away. I even went to live with her for about a year in high school.
My step-dad. Jim. That's all anyone ever called him. He was always just Jim. He had tattoos and that was always looked down upon. He cussed a lot, was angry a lot, and wasn't really a very good role model in many regards. However, he was there. He was there for my whole life. He just passed away this past November and I was the only person there who stood up and spoke at his passing. After college he would start to refer to me as 'son' when saying goodbye on the phone, and I would call him on 'Father's Day' which I think he liked. Growing up I made to feel that Jim was inferior by my mom and grandmother (I'm guessing). But, now, in counseling and reflecting back, I'm starting to wonder if Jim may have actually been one of the more solid figures that I had in my life. My mom and grandmother who I so revered...in an almost deity like way...were infallible and therefore it had to be this rough-around-the-edges blue-collar man with tattoos that was the bad guy.
Okay.
I guess that's enough for right now. I apologize again if this is going in a frowned upon direction. But for me, this is the struggle I'm working through. I am breaking down my life in all aspects, all the way down to the very idea and understanding of what it means to be in existence...and where I end up...I don't know. But, hopefully I'll know who I am, what I want, and where I want to go.
I'm feeling compelled to say this, so I will...I love you all who read and respond to this.
----Sidebar Question----
1.) I want to send my wife a message and suggest that we move to a true 50% custody. I want to say that if we switch to week by week...she has the kids for 7 days, and then I get the kids for 7 days...that everyone's life will actually be easier.
Currently, there are two transitions every week so the kids have to be packed up and ready to switch twice every week. This is time consuming and emotionally draining on the kids.
Not to mention that if we switch to week-by-week then both my wife and I will have a week where we can focus on the kids and do all kid related activities and then during the following week catch up on all the personal things we need to focus on. I don't know, for me at least, it feels like this constant transition is making it difficult for me to find a solid routine, and if its hard for me, its got to be hard on the kids.
So...the question to you all is, how would you recommend I approach this? Just an email written out just like above?
You're putting in some awesome work, B.
This is so cool to see. I really think if you can keep this up, exploring yourself and what defines you as a man, that you will continue to grow and ultimately become happy. And remember, happiness attracts more happiness.
Well done!
----Sidebar Question----
2.) A secondary question that is multi-faceted. Obviously my wife has lost complete respect for me, and even in her own words 'emasculated' me. She has threatened court action and taking the kids 100% custody and all of that, as has been previously discussed.
My question is about how I should be acting from a legal, business, pro-active stance.
I have been basically taking the stance of 'taking no action' so as not to rush or escalate anything beyond where it should be. However, it has come up a couple of times in conversations with friends, that perhaps I should take pro-active action and seek a lawyer to delineate our separation agreement formally. Does taking the first step on this make a difference?
Also, on the living situation. I know I need to get a bigger place. The complex I'm in is very nice, but it is an apartment complex, which is a step down from living in a house. I signed a 1-year lease, and at this point to cancel that least will cost me two months rent. Not to mention, that in general the 2 or 3 bedroom townhouses that I have found are quite a bit farther away from the kids house. Does anyone think that me simply switching my lease in the current apartment complex from a 1 bedroom unit to a 2 bedroom unit is an inadequate solution for the next 12 months? I'm trying not to make any rash decisions, and want to be financially responsible as much as I can, because I'm honestly worried about what types of expenses I may have depending on how hard my WW and her family come after me.
So, if I switch to a 2 bedroom, 2 bathroom apartment with a sun-room, that should be adequate for 3 kids in part-time custody right? If not, do you think a 3 bedroom would be adequate? A three bedroom unit would be a lot more expensive and for half the time would be completely overkill. I don't know. Curious to hear your thoughts.
Thanks,
B
B
Firstly
Amazing sobriety
Congratulations but only with lemonade!
The pressures at the moment are very great so that is one heck of an achievement.
I am reading along and am preparing a reply on the FOO (family of origin issues) and in particular about the lineage and 1980s issues. I was there!
The work you are doing on you is impressive indeed.
Can you give me a little time as I need to research a couple of issues whilst I organise my thinking. That is a interesting perspective on your relationship with alcohol.
In the meanwhile do you know if your dad used drugs before you were conceived. Was one of those drugs LSD?
Don't worry if you don't know.
It's just there is a very interesting study on epigenetic influences and drug use by parents prior to conception. It may explain a couple of things.
Big big hugs
I am very impressed indeed
V
--Sidebar Question----
1.) I want to send my wife a message and suggest that we move to a true 50% custody. I want to say that if we switch to week by week...she has the kids for 7 days, and then I get the kids for 7 days...that everyone's life will actually be easier.
Currently, there are two transitions every week so the kids have to be packed up and ready to switch twice every week. This is time consuming and emotionally draining on the kids.
Not to mention that if we switch to week-by-week then both my wife and I will have a week where we can focus on the kids and do all kid related activities and then during the following week catch up on all the personal things we need to focus on. I don't know, for me at least, it feels like this constant transition is making it difficult for me to find a solid routine, and if its hard for me, its got to be hard on the kids.
So...the question to you all is, how would you recommend I approach this? Just an email written out just like above
My thinking is kids and their wellbeing always come first. There are many parents around here who can give you better views on the how's.
Any changes should really be documented through an L. There is more peace if there is a parenting plan.
Several parents here use online scheduling tools to remove the heat from their interactions and both parents have access.
I will put a call out to a parent who uses this to see if they have advice.
V
----Sidebar Question----
2.) A secondary question that is multi-faceted. Obviously my wife has lost complete respect for me, and even in her own words 'emasculated' me. She has threatened court action and taking the kids 100% custody and all of that, as has been previously discussed.
My question is about how I should be acting from a legal, business, pro-active stance.
Your first stance is a good quality decent L and to follow their advice. I have been basically taking the stance of 'taking no action' so as not to rush or escalate anything beyond where it should be. However, it has come up a couple of times in conversations with friends, that perhaps I should take pro-active action and seek a lawyer to delineate our separation agreement formally. Does taking the first step on this make a difference?
I am a great believer in a good L. Interview several until you find one you like. They take instruction from you so if you want W to file first then proceed on that basis. A good L is not a therapist keep your instructions straightforward and interactions minimal. Use email as much as you can on everything and save all emails. Most first meetings are free so interview your L. This is the most important thing you can do for you a good L will save you a lot off hassle and cost. Don't do things yourself as it can cost a great deal to unravel.Also, on the living situation. I know I need to get a bigger place. The complex I'm in is very nice, but it is an apartment complex, which is a step down from living in a house. I signed a 1-year lease, and at this point to cancel that least will cost me two months rent. Not to mention, that in general the 2 or 3 bedroom townhouses that I have found are quite a bit farther away from the kids house. Does anyone think that me simply switching my lease in the current apartment complex from a 1 bedroom unit to a 2 bedroom unit is an inadequate solution for the next 12 months?
If that works then sounds good to me. Any way you could test it? I'm trying not to make any rash decisions, and want to be financially responsible as much as I can, because I'm honestly worried about what types of expenses I may have depending on how hard my WW and her family come after me.
I am more than ever convinced on the L if only for peace of mind.So, if I switch to a 2 bedroom, 2 bathroom apartment with a sun-room, that should be adequate for 3 kids in part-time custody right? If not, do you think a 3 bedroom would be adequate? A three bedroom unit would be a lot more expensive and for half the time would be completely overkill. I don't know. Curious to hear your thoughts.
Kids love bunk beds and sharing with dad sometimes. So depends on the space and the kids. How well they get on and space to play and do homework. Most important is the love of dad and his interactions. You would enjoy reading RD500 thread and the interactions has with his kids. Such fun, family film nights and big hugs. The most important thing is hugs and boundaries. Lots of love and I did say hugs didn't I? I tend to mention those a lot.---------------------------------------
One of the best things you can do is fill in your tags at the bottom. My stuff edit profile then at the bottom. It makes it easier for posters to post to you as it memory jogs.
I am so proud of you on the sobriety, not my place to say but I am saying it anyway.
Hugs
V
One of the best things you can do is fill in your tags at the bottom. My stuff edit profile then at the bottom. It makes it easier for posters to post to you as it memory jogs.
Which tags are you referring to here V?
your sobriety and the things you are doing are to be highly commended
Thank you for saying this V, and while it is nice to hear, the truth is...I should have been doing this long ago.
In these difficult circumstances you are going to AA and staying sober. This is the most important gift you have for yourself and your family.
It is a very short period of time.
The funny thing about the alcohol is that, so far it really hasn't been too much of an issue. There are a lot of reasons for that...the original and primary one was that in the beginning I believed that getting sober would prove to my WW that I was worthy of reconciliation. There has also been a great deal of fear, in that, I feel as though all of my actions are viewed under a microscope and that any slip up will surely prevent reconciliation and/or make me lose access to my children.
That being said...I do realize that I have a real alcohol addiction. I am powerless over alcohol. I also seem to be powerless over a couple of other 'self-medicating' behaviors. (Pornography and Video Games) I'm not sure yet where and how all of this comes together but I know that they are related in origin.
Know that this is a consequence of your addictive behavior. Your responsibility.
This is one of the key things that I took from your post here. And may be the sentence that truly crushed me. But...it is the truth and exactly what I need to accept. My WW and her in-laws have done many things that are wrong, or deceptive, or controlling, etc...and moving forward they will very likely continue this behavior towards me. I have to realize that doesn't matter. I cannot control them, I can only control myself. I can only look at myself, recognize my faults, honestly, and if possible correct them, and live my life. That has been the true revelation that came when I first read your post. So, thank you, so very much for not being afraid to speak your mind, sharing your experience, and taking the time to do so with me.
I think it would help you to rework steps 1 to 3 of your twelve step program
Yes. I have been starting to feel this also. The first 3 months, my whole focus in everything I did, was reconciliation. When I went to AA...it was so easy (well, not easy) but it was so obviously necessary to 'heal', to 'recover', to have some tangible proof to show my WW...'look, see...I'm better'.
Now, though. I'm looking at it through my eyes, for my life. And suddenly the prospect of sharing, and going through these 12 steps is suddenly much more frightening. Requiring a higher degree of self-reflection. I'll get there...I want to...but it is going to take time.
I also suggest you read about being the child of an alcoholic, your children are the children of an alcoholic. Sobriety for such a short time is not atonement. To atone takes great courage and humility. I don't see it nor do I read that you understand the damage done by addiction by the addict to the family.
This part is hard. Its hard for me to see clearly and accept that I have done so much damage and pain. If I'm being honest, a lot of the memories and details are missing...from gee I wonder why...getting drunk and not being able to remember. I ran and hid from life in alcohol and life just kept going on without me.
The biggest thing I've done...and this is hard to admit. Is that, basically...I allowed my WW to treat our D(15) as a scapegoat...and...even worse...I would do it too. I at least recognize that it has happened. I've discussed it with my WW before over the past few years and she denies any existence of such behavior. My poor daughter is too tender and broken to be able to recognize or speak about this for herself. (I mean, perhaps I project some of my own personal pain onto her experience, but I don't think I'm wrong.)
As for the rest of the time...well...I know that there was a lot of angry outbursts, mood swings, lying and isolating behavior. I mean, yeah, I've done more than my share of damaging my MR. I admit that. And if I look at myself objectively...what woman would want to stay with that man?
Do you have any recommended books on dealing with the children of alcoholics? I've mentioned to my D(15) the Al-Anon process and group and volunteered to go with her to a meeting, but in general, I don't think she is ready to face those types of things. I think she still wants to believe life will be okay on its own...you know...her parents will protect her and make sure she is okay like they always have. (That's sarcasm)
I believe you have a great deal of work to do on you.
Agreed.
Secondly there are physiological issues that need addressing. Substance addicts invariably have poor health especially if they smoke. Nutritional deficiencies and you say you have lost a lot of weight. Know your numbers, get your health, liver function and thyroid tested. Kidney damage is also common.
This is a good reminder. Something that my codependency therapist has been stressing also. 'Know your body' I quit smoking in 2000. (That actually contributed to a lot of my weight gain originally) The weight I've lost was necessary. Did I do it healthily? I don't know. I didn't take any supplements or diet pills or anything like that...I simply knew that I needed to lose weight, because I was fat, and was so depressed that I really wasn't hungry.
Last June I weighed 315lbs. This morning I weighed 231. I'm 6'4", so I still have some weight I feel like I want to lose so that I can have a body that helps me have a higher self esteem. But, for the past month or so I've holding mostly steady around the 230 mark.
But, I should go get a detailed physical probably. I have been to the doctor and my blood pressure was very good for a change. My kids say my snoring at night is gone also - due to weight loss.
Let's also consider the body mind spirit interaction
This is going to be where my real work is done. Early on in my first thread I had a realization one Sunday morning at a men's meeting. And...last night it was reinforced while sitting in a Divorce Care session where they were discussing spirituality and the happiness and healthiness that comes with letting go of anger.
My morality. My spirituality.
AA peers tell me to, 'do the next right thing'.
But...for pretty much for as long as I can remember...I act healthy, I act spiritual, I seem to be these things...at least at first glance. But...when I get alone...I shed those pointless notions and do what I want, how I want. Gluttonous, prideful, selfish, addictive actions. (Though, I never cheated on my WW) I don't know how I justified this in my head...I guess I just lied and figured no-one knew. But the hollow nature of self I created is probably one of the primary things that I have done to degrade into a man that had no value in his MR, career, etc...
I think it would help you to understand that much of your hyper reactivity and mood swings are related to your addiction and the consequences of it.
This right here...this is good stuff. And I've heard it said over the past few months...but never really took it to mean me. I have had extreme reactions both positive and negative to things that really probably shouldn't elicit much of a response at all. Which, that realization stinks, because probably it means that my WW has done less mean stuff than I think, and has also shown even less attention to me than the little that I believed she had displayed. But...that doesn't matter. It is good to remember that I need to slow down all of my responses. Take some time. Be patient.
A friend in AA said, "Nothing is as good, or as bad, as we believe it is."
Dating is not good GAL and if I were W, that would make me think scorpion, so much damage and he dates?
I'm not going to date. I have fantasized about it some. And, while it would be nice to have someone to hold me and tell me that everything will be okay. Forming some new relationship right now is just something that I don't really have any interest in. I do actually want to step out of the other side of this painful place as a new man...a healthy, happy man.
Dark is not good. Validation is important.
I would really like to hear you expand on this. I get the validation being important. I'm not certain I understand the dark is not good aspect. Are you saying I shouldn't be doing NC? I assume that any notion of pursuit needs to explicitly destroyed within myself. But...up to this point, I have had a very difficult time at being able to interact with WW and not pursue. If I force myself to not interact with her other than the barest of minimum responses, then I seem to be able to effectively detach. But, if I talk to her (like a couple of weekends ago) then suddenly I start to feel this desire to pursue.
You are rushing, it's in the nature of compulsives, you have time take it.
Again, great advice. I'm working on being able to put this in to practice. "Time takes time". Again though, one thing that I have really struggled with during this whole process, is how to feel, think, view my future. To sit in limbo...to accept her waywardness...to ignore the fear and uncertainty...to not rage out of control...so hard.
Thank you so much Vanilla for this post. It's difficult for me to express the profound response I had to this message.
I saw some of your other post and I will respond. I'm in no rush, so please don't worry about responding quickly. I grateful that you have taken as much time as you have.
And for RosaLinda and Thornton...I'm going to work my through this thread making responses to every post.
I will also be adding more of my self-examination.
So...stay tuned...same bat time...same bat channel.
Cheers all.
I love you all, seriously. Is it weird that I say that? I don't know why I'm feeling compelled to say that. It's okay, right? Anyway...
-B-
I
think Vanilla means the signature, on the bottom of your post. To keep it updated. I may or may not update mine to change my age to 64 this fall, sigh.... Thanks for posting all that stuff about your family of origin. It all contributes, and helps us to see and understand you better.
Lastly...I want to say, the big thing. The things that made me break down from Vanilla's post is the fact that I think I may have realized for the first time...truly...that the faults in my marriage really do stem from me in many ways. Yes, my WW has many faults that I and my children can see. But...so do I. And, I need to worry less about her faults. Worry less about who's to blame. Worry less about why she is doing this...and I need to simply focus on me. I know it keeps getting said here over and over...and I will probably forget it over and over...but I need to accept my faults...and openly admit and address them...or else I will never be able to heal and will be doomed to repeat this scenario.
My WW and her in-laws have done many things that are wrong, or deceptive, or controlling, etc...and moving forward they will very likely continue this behavior towards me. I have to realize that doesn't matter. I cannot control them, I can only control myself. I can only look at myself, recognize my faults, honestly, and if possible correct them, and live my life.
This is the point of DBing, and I am frigging proud of you for understanding this less than 6 months after your bomb drop, B. I muddled and moped around for years, truly. You are doing really really well!
Someone on here is very fond of saying that our marriages are over at bomb drop, but we just don't know it yet. And maybe we can reconcile with our spouse in a new improved marriage. Maybe not. Either way, YOU are and will be a wonderful man and dad. And that's all you can do.
----Sidebar Question----
1.) I want to send my wife a message and suggest that we move to a true 50% custody. I want to say that if we switch to week by week...she has the kids for 7 days, and then I get the kids for 7 days...that everyone's life will actually be easier.
Currently, there are two transitions every week so the kids have to be packed up and ready to switch twice every week. This is time consuming and emotionally draining on the kids.
Not to mention that if we switch to week-by-week then both my wife and I will have a week where we can focus on the kids and do all kid related activities and then during the following week catch up on all the personal things we need to focus on. I don't know, for me at least, it feels like this constant transition is making it difficult for me to find a solid routine, and if its hard for me, its got to be hard on the kids.
So...the question to you all is, how would you recommend I approach this? Just an email written out just like above?
2.) A secondary question that is multi-faceted. Obviously my wife has lost complete respect for me, and even in her own words 'emasculated' me. She has threatened court action and taking the kids 100% custody and all of that, as has been previously discussed.
My question is about how I should be acting from a legal, business, pro-active stance.
I have been basically taking the stance of 'taking no action' so as not to rush or escalate anything beyond where it should be. However, it has come up a couple of times in conversations with friends, that perhaps I should take pro-active action and seek a lawyer to delineate our separation agreement formally. Does taking the first step on this make a difference?
The thing is B, your wife does not really care if things are harder or easier for your kids, and CERTAINLY does not care one single bit what you want. You already spoke to a lawyer right? You need to discuss this with him. The divorce laws are pretty complex in NC as compared to most of the rest of the country, with "fault" still a big issue in assigning alimony and may impact custody arrangements.
While many vets recommend letting the wayward spouse file for divorce, you need to protect yourself and your kids. Your wife threatened to have her family lie in court so she can get 100% custody. The best thing you can do is to discuss this with your lawyer. NC is a hybrid state, and I think the fact that you "abandoned" your wife counts against you, as does your history of alcohol abuse. And your wife's adultery counts against her. Retain that lawyer you spoke to, or find someone you like better. Do it!
So, if I switch to a 2 bedroom, 2 bathroom apartment with a sun-room, that should be adequate for 3 kids in part-time custody right? If not, do you think a 3 bedroom would be adequate? A three bedroom unit would be a lot more expensive and for half the time would be completely overkill. I don't know. Curious to hear your thoughts.
I think 2 bedrooms would be good. The two girls could share a room, and you could put a futon in your room for your son, and use it as a couch when they are not living with you. I personally think your oldest daughter is too old to be sharing with a boy. It would save you a lot of money to be able to switch to a unit like this in the complex you're already living in. Sounds good!
I'm not going to date. I have fantasized about it some. And, while it would be nice to have someone to hold me and tell me that everything will be okay. Forming some new relationship right now is just something that I don't really have any interest in. I do actually want to step out of the other side of this painful place as a new man...a healthy, happy man.
I'm relieved to hear you say this. A new relationship started before you are healed and out of your old relationship is not fair to you or to the new woman.
And more on your wife's lack of respect and emasculating you...Sandi started a great thread on this. Really eye opening, and a little upsetting. Take a look --
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2653323#Post2653323I love you all, seriously. Is it weird that I say that? I don't know why I'm feeling compelled to say that. It's okay, right? Anyway...
Not weird at all. I love you too. And honestly, Bfice (what DOES Bfice mean, anyway??) my closest real life friends are people whom I met on this forum. There's something about going thru a terrible trauma together, and helping and upholding and cheering each other on thru good and bad times that gives people really really tight bonds. We know a lot more about each other and can see each other more clearly than social or work friends. Don't cha think?
I forgot to mention this:
This is going to be where my real work is done. Early on in my first thread I had a realization one Sunday morning at a men's meeting. And...last night it was reinforced while sitting in a Divorce Care session where they were discussing spirituality and the happiness and healthiness that comes with letting go of anger.
That is the most important thing I learned from Divorce Care. That holding on to anger and resentment and unforgiveness is poison and killing YOU, while the person you are so angry with is totally oblivious and going their merry way. Forgiving is SO freeing.
Hey All,
Just a quick post. I keep feeling the urge to want to tell my WW what I found about her affair. (Her list of pros and cons.)
I'm not sure why. I decided originally to not tell her because I read here that it was best not to. And also, I feel like it may be an 'ace in the hole' that could help me prove her intentions with regards to our marriage and help out representing myself legally if necessary.
But, I just hate the fact that she has been able to just lie to me. I don't know. I'm 'not acting' right now...coming here to get a level headed perspective.
I suppose...if I'm being critically honest...part of also hopes that she would be exposed...feel incredibly great shame...and then...you know...love me again.
^^^SICK^^^ But...it is the truth. And, I'm sure that based strictly on the above I should not talk to her at all.
In a month, maybe?
Oh B...let go of this miserable woman.
I actually had a thought earlier...I thought...if I let her go...if I let her no longer have any power over me...she wouldn't be able to make me feel like this. Then I dismissed that thought. But I had it! That's how normal people feel...right?
Anyway...thanks for any responses.
I struggle with the same thoughts. Don't reach out to her, you won't get the peace of mind you think you will. It's a dead end.
I wishi could just move on from mine too. Start over with someone that values relationships as much as I do.
Hey Thornton. How you doing bro?
So...here's me flip-flopping and showing my logical disconnect.
Today I had another session with my codependency therapist. Basically, its necessary for me (and all of us) to recognize that my WW isn't a bad/evil person necessarily. And, the way I would display that in relation to your post is to say, "our WW's do value relationships". I think its important for us to be completely honest. My WW would not have done what she did if she wasn't hurting and seeking love and value for herself. And, she has the right to want and get those things. I certainly disagree very strongly with the way she gone about making that happen for herself, but I am starting to see that she is only doing what she believes to be the best thing for her.
Now, this hurts like a mother to admit. It hurts even more to admit that my actions and inactions have contributed to her behavior. But, again, its the truth.
^^^^Who is this guy talking? And why can't I get him to be around 100% of the time and replace that other guy?^^^^
I hope you have a good day today Thornton. You deserve happiness to my friend. *e-bro-fistbump*
Sounds like you are making strides, B. That's awesome man, keep going.
I agree with you, it's tough to look in the mirror and recognize we played a part in this. It hurts me too. Sometimes its easier for me to play the victim, to point fingers at her and assign blame.
My waw isn't a bad person either. But it makes it so much easier for me to detach when I think about all the sh!tty things she's done. How hypocritical of me huh? Like I wasn't an ass sometimes.
I'm realizing there are no shortcuts, B. Detaching isn't a linear process, nor is healing. I can literally feel good for half an hour and then fall deep into depression for the rest of the day. I don't like being on my own, it gives me too much time to be alone with my torturous thoughts.
In my earlier days, I would simply go find another hottie and fall in love with her. I see now that it wasn't healthy for me. I never learned who I was. I still don't know who the hell I am. So far, I don't like what I see.
That leaves me with a few choices: continue on as I have been or change me.
The hard part is that so many things are deeply ingrained, where do you even start to begin changing?
Anyways, rant over. You're doing a great job, B.
B
when you are ready let me know.
V
Hey Vanilla, how are you? I hope life has been treating you well.
I am ready. But...I guess I'm not exactly certain what I am supposed to be ready for. But yes, lets do it. I'm ready!
B
Hey RosaLinda, how are you doing? I hope life is being kind to you lately as well!
Edit - Fixed Link - Cadet
I tried clicking on this link, but I get an error opening it. Says that the forum has a problem finding this in its database. Is this the thread of 'Sandi's reflections'? If so, yes I've read it, and yes it is upsetting. If not, could you try to link it again, please. Thank you.
Bfice (what DOES Bfice mean, anyway??)
Haha...well, its dumb and immature and related to some new methods of wording I have used. Suffice it to be that 'B' is a good way to refer to me. (In the interest of hoping to maintain some level of anonymity I don't want to fully explain it.) Though, I'm sure anyone reading this thread who may know me, would easily be able to figure out who I am.
Also...I finally did something yesterday that was just simply 100% pure unadulterated me GAL for me. I went to a meet-up for artists and made a 'monoprint'. Oil painting on glass, then press the paper on to that and get the reverse image as the print. My 'art' was less than great...but I had fun doing it, and it was nice to just sit and be creative and not really think about anything else.
Two things for input from anyone:
1.) I still keep having this desire to tell my WW that I know more about her affair than she realizes. I need someone to explain to me why I really just shouldn't. Giving up my ace-in-the-hole. Simply making her more angry for snooping again. Making her simply lie and say more hateful stuff. Stop being a wuss of a man and realize my WW is a crummy spouse and I should want to be rid of her. Why do I still feel like I should be able to have some connection with her? Why do I keep hoping that she will 'snap out of it' and realize what she has done?
2.) On legal stuff. I went ahead and signed a new contract to get a 2 bedroom apartment. Have to provide 30 days notice to the complex, so in about 3 1/2 weeks. I really feel that for the kids, for me, and for my WW...that moving to a week by week rotation of the kids will be easier on everyone and better for all of us. Also, when/if this switch happens I want to make it so that I'm not driving the kids on her weeks...that needs to be her responsibility. But my WW simply is holding strong to her position that not only is she not going to agree to the week by week rotation...she still fully believes that the kids should be 100% with her. So...how hard do I push on this? I mean...I'm asking around and looking to see which lawyer I feel most comfortable with and get a good recommendation from some people I know. I'll get them to form a separation agreement proposal...but...what happens when she simply rejects it? Knowing her, I expect her to go to her lawyer and get one that says the exact opposite which I will never agree to. What then? Will I just be spending money on a lawyer to make us all more angry with no real resolution or positive coming from it? Should I simply allow things to continue as they have, and perhaps tell her I want to back away from driving the kids on her days? My friend says I shouldn't be afraid or avoid doing what I feel to be right, if I'm doing it for the right reasons..ie the kids. But...I just know that I can't trust my own thoughts these days. It is after all, my best thinking that got me into this situation to begin with.
Edit - Fixed Link - Cadet
oh Cadet, thanks for fixing that link for Sandi's Reflections thread. I guess I'm not very technological
Yes, B, it was the same thread you already read. Sort of upsetting, made me wonder WHY my ex lost all respect for me. Probably had something to do with enabling him. Something else for me to work on.
Vanilla, I'm wondering how this online AA mentoring will work too. Will you guys start a private thread?
Also...I finally did something yesterday that was just simply 100% pure unadulterated me GAL for me. I went to a meet-up for artists and made a 'monoprint'. Oil painting on glass, then press the paper on to that and get the reverse image as the print. My 'art' was less than great...but I had fun doing it, and it was nice to just sit and be creative and not really think about anything else.
That sounds SO fun! My new guy's daughter and I want to go to something like that -- I think it would be a blast! I'm not too sure my "front image" would be very good, let alone trying to figure out how the negative of a painting would look, but it sounds fun!
No problem about not wanting to fully explain the B in Bfice, I understand the need for anonymity. My ex did not give a fig what I did, but a lot of people on here have spouses who stalk them. It always seemed so strange to me, to throw your spouse and marriage out the window, but then continue to spy on them? My real name is Linda, Queen RosaLinda was the name I always used when I used to play Civilization with my kids
Dropped the "Queen" on the forum here, but you may address me as Your Majesty any time you want LOL
I still keep having this desire to tell my WW that I know more about her affair than she realizes. I need someone to explain to me why I really just shouldn't.
Didn't you already tell your wife that you know she had an affair? And she already lied and said it wasn't true? If you confront your wife that you now have proof that you know she was lying, and had an actual physical affair, she will get just get angry and defensive and lie. That's human nature, and cheating wife nature too. When I told my ex I knew about his affair, he denied it, so I handed him copies I had made of his emails. He threw them into the fire, continued to deny it, and started yelling at me for breaching his privacy and changed his password.
What do you hope to accomplish by telling her?
I think, as you live in a state where adultery can be an issue in deciding alimony and custody, that you should let your lawyer know about this "ace-in-the-hole" and give him or her your proof.
When the time comes to rebuild your marriage, it should not be built on a lie. But none of us see that happening anytime soon. I just don't think telling her right now will accomplish anything besides more spewing and lies, don't see her becoming overcome with remorse or guilt or anything like that and "snapping out of it." Maybe someone else will have better advice.
Congratulations on your new apartment! On this custody stuff
But my WW simply is holding strong to her position that not only is she not going to agree to the week by week rotation...she still fully believes that the kids should be 100% with her. So...how hard do I push on this?
I mean...I'm asking around and looking to see which lawyer I feel most comfortable with and get a good recommendation from some people I know. I'll get them to form a separation agreement proposal...but...what happens when she simply rejects it? Knowing her, I expect her to go to her lawyer and get one that says the exact opposite which I will never agree to. What then? Will I just be spending money on a lawyer to make us all more angry with no real resolution or positive coming from it?
This is divorce B. Yes, you will be spending money on a lawyer and making her more angry with no immediate resolution or positive. That is what happens. The parties make and reject each other's proposals.
Stand your ground and do what is best for you and your kids. You might ask her if she'd like to try a mediator first, but in the end, if you cannot agree, a judge will decide what is best for your kids. Get a lawyer now B. And give him or her your ace-in-the-hole proof of adultery and be honest about your drinking and attending AA, as your wife probably sees that as
her ace-in-the-hole.
B
We can have a private thread if you wish.
Your choice or we can use your thread.
Already we have discussed steps 1 to 3
Step 1 We admitted we were powerless over alcohol - that our lives had become unmanageable.
Step 2 Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
Step 3 Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
-----------------------------------------------------
Step 4 Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
Step 5 Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
Step 6 Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
Step 7 Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
Step 8 Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
Step 9 Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
Step 10 Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
Step 11 Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
Step 12 Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics and to practice these principles in all our affairs.
---------------------------------------
AA says
Newcomers are not asked to accept or follow these Twelve Steps in their entirety if they feel unwilling or unable to do so.
They will usually be asked to keep an open mind, to attend meetings at which recovered alcoholics describe their personal experiences in achieving sobriety, and to read AA literature describing and interpreting the AA program.
AA members will usually emphasize to newcomers that only problem drinkers themselves, individually, can determine whether or not they are in fact alcoholics.
---------------------------------------------
I feel that you are ready to think about Step 4.
What is your view on it?
----------------------------------------
Rosalinda and B I have thought carefully about this, sometimes this exposes FOO issues at that stage absolutely private.
I assume Rosa Linda if B is happy to move forwards you are comfortable to contribute if he requests extra support?
That would be good.
Rosa Linda I have put an extra request on your thread regarding another poster here who has a sitch that concerns me greatly.
V
Hey Vanilla,
I've been having a LOT going on, and frankly I get tired when I come here and have had some difficulty getting here to write. I will make some time soon to come in and start with you on the steps...I think I will want to make that a new thread. But...should that be a private thread? I'm not sure...I'm not sure what to think about a lot of things right now. I went ahead and made the move to retain my lawyer and get her to start the process of drafting up a separation agreement. She sent out the first email this morning, and as you might expect, the WW is not handling it well at all. But...my fear of her actions should not be a reason to not take simple measures to protect myself and my children. So, here I am.
But, I'm still sober. Still doing my thing.
I'll be in touch soon. Love you all.
Congrats on the sobriety B, considering all you have going on that's really impressive.
We can rest on the 12 step issue, I am here when you want to post. It's ok, let's take the pressure away for awhile. I think there is enough going on and it's ok.
Keep posting if you can
V
Hello DB Forum,
Been a while since I've been posting. Lot's of stuff going here. As far as the relationship with the WW very little good to speak of. My MIL came back to town this past weekend, and I had a feeling that her return is like a herald of things to come.
My oldest D told me last weekend that the WW had mentioned to her that the WW said she was going to fight for her two week vacation and the 'grandparents rights' and that not having that is 'affecting their quality of life' and the my D would probably not like how she fights for it. (I didn't ask for her to tell me this, she just mentioned it when I asked her if there had been any new information on the concert she wants to go to.
The WW just randomly sent texts at different times, one wondering out of the blue what I was paying in health insurance for the kids, and another a few days later, saying oh yeah I just remembered I don't have your address, what is it?
I didn't respond to either. But I did go ahead and start searching and asking about lawyers from several sources and got a few good recommendations on the one I had already chosen, so I just stayed with her. I set up an appointment and went through the process of getting on retainer and told her I wanted to start up the separation agreement.
We went over all the evidence I have on the adultery, and what [censored] is that inn general, none of it matters unless someone is a 'dependent' spouse and just based on income its doubtful that I could be portrayed as the dependent spouse. But...I guess it can still be useful for leverage in the negotiations. My lawyer also had a serious interest in knowing a lot about the OM which was pretty surprising. In fact she said a lot of things that just seemed contrary to everything I thought I needed to be doing. But...I'm just listening and following her advice as it comes.
I have extremely mixed feelings about this altogether. It just feels so final, and there is no way to come back after this. But, I suppose the truth is that it was over long before this. My WW has interpreted the initial email from my lawyer as being an all out assault from me, and basically won't speak to me anymore. Which is probably fine, but I just have this bad feeling that she is going to really run this into the dirt in a way that will be bad for all of us. Although, the whole time she'll be saying and thinking and believing she is doing the 'righteous' thing.
All I really want is 50% custody, and 50% of the financial assets. Splitting up the goods in the house, I'm really not going to go too crazy about. The way I see it, most of the stuff in the house contributes to my kids standard of life and the more they have there, the more they have. I can get 'stuff' over time to fill up my place. Though, I would like one of our big leather love seats.
Yesterday, I was picking the kids up from school and waiting for them to finish up their violin practice. Our priest was out in the parking lot with the big box, so I walked over to help him load it up in his car, and we talked for a good 20 or 30 minutes. I gave him a pretty thorough update since I last met with him around New Year's. In the end he asked if he had my permission to call my WW and see if she would sit with me and him together and we could try to "get the puss out of the wound" as he put it. I said, okay (without saying what I thought my WW would think of that). I don't know if he'll call her, and I certainly have my opinion on what she will say about it if he does...but that's still where my heart is. I still wish that she would get her head out of her rear end and see what she is doing. But...I know that will never happen. She has dug in too far.
I've been reading a lot about narcissist's. And I've really come to believe that my WW very likely has NPR (narcissist personality disorder). Someone with NPR has such low self-esteem that they create this 'false self' that carries and faces reality for them. And everyone they have in their life is only their to reflect back to them their projection of that 'false self' and if they don't reflect back the correct projection they lose their value to the narcissist.
The narcissist will apparently go to any length to feed this 'false self' image. And reading about the behaviors here is what is really so frightening to me. Over the years I cannot describe the hell I have lived in where I have literally felt insane. Something would happen, and minutes after I would be accused of remembering it wrong. Or, I would wake up the next morning and be accused of something I did when drunk...and I would think, "man I must have really been drunk because I don't remember that at all". Events, and conversations, and opinions would constantly be replayed back to me in an entirely new way...and I always just felt that it was my own lack of ability, my own lack of human capacity for emotional understanding that made me so dense that I just "didn't get what was going on", or that "couldn't keep up".
The isolation of my personal life...the leaving behind of my family, friends, and all personal relationships...benefit the narcissist because it keeps me unable to see beyond the "cloud of confusion" the narcissist thrives on to be able to set the rules however they want or need to maintain their "false self" image.
How many times have I thought..."she's crazy, that didn't happen" and she would get so irate until I would apologize.
My logic was always overruled by passionate anger on her end...and then silence and detachment until I came crawling back asking for forgiveness...assuming the blame.
It's a real mess. But, the more I read about it, the more it makes sense. And, I think what has happened is that after so long, I finally stopped caring enough to reflect back happily that "false self" image she so desperately needs. So, she simply had to go get it from somewhere else.
I remember a few weeks before the separation I was talking to her trying to break through and "reach" her. I told her she has always had this "secret place" that I could never get in to. That there was always this part of her that was unavailable to me. Thinking, if I mention it, she will have to surely address it. But, no, she doesn't have to do anything.
The narcissism also falls in to line on how she can't or won't allow herself to go to therapists. Both times we went, she basically just wouldn't accept anything being negative in her description whereas I was always so willing to accept all blame.
I don't know. This whole thing just stinks.
V, I'm going to come back soon and start on the steps with you. I really need to do that.
So...I hope you are all well. I be around soon.
Later.
B
Bfice, I could have wrote your last post myslef. W has the same issues and they all stem from severe low self esteem. Same feelings from the past, it made me go insane and I was always the one apologizing in the end. That self she portrays is so believing at times it convinces me I'm wrong in the moment. Anyway, even if that's what she is (were not professionals so we can't diagnose it) it doesn't change anything. It's their issue to handle, not ours.
So, what are you doing now to live life to its fullest? Sure, events with W and family are going to be difficult but you can always find the moments in the day to be grateful and enjoy life.
How are you doing B? I'm awfully glad you finally retained a lawyer
I know officially filing for separation feels final and horrible to you, but as you say, your marriage was over a long time ago. But that doesn't mean that you and your wife could never get together again sometime in the future, with a new, improved marriage. It just means that you are protecting your rights and your kids' rights.
Is your mother in law still in town? I bet she and your wife are feeding off each other's anger, and egging each other on. Ugh.
I have a couple of friends on this forum whose spouses are NPR. It's an awful personality disorder, one of the worst in my (uneducated) opinion. They felt the same as you, that sometimes they wondered if they had gone insane, logic met by rage, total altering of "facts," and them painted as the bad guy lying cheater. It seems worse for people who are sharing custody of their kids.
How are your exams going? Are you done yet? Have you and V started working on your steps? Let's hear some of the good stuff going on in your life! Are you making corned beef tomorrow? We're all honorary Irishmen tomorrow!!
Hello DB Forum!
Hey Rosa! Hey V!
Been a while since I've been here. Lots going on in my life, and pretty much all of it is good, I guess.
I've gotten to the point now (I think) where I'm ready, willing, and able to move forward in my life, for me and not worry about the past or what might have been, should have been, or is going on in my WW's life. (That last part...thinking about her...does occasionally come up and it still hurts a lot...but I'm able to see now that holding on to any of those thoughts only does one thing...they end up hurting me...and only me.)
As I've heard said in AA (two versions):
1.) Resentment is a poison that we make for someone else, but end up drinking ourselves.
2.) Resentment is like peeing your pants. Everybody can see it, but you are the only one that feels it.
I find that I am happier now. I have tons of reasons I could be unhappy if I choose to focus on those things...but I wake up in the morning and most of the time during the day, I'm stress-free...and actually feeling happy.
My kids are happier too. So many great things are really happening with my oldest daughter in particular. She's 15. And she has struggled with introversion and shame...its just obvious to me. She is really so much a young version of myself. But the other night I got them all (3 kids) to get off of their electronics and 'lets just talk'. And my D(15) was actively communicating with me and I noticed it and was really happy that was she opening up and sharing and talking with me. Then I said something like, "even though I'm around you all less now, I think that this situation may actually end up improving our relationship" and my D(15) immediately chimed in with a big smile, "Yeah, you know what, I think it already has, I can tell already."
And that was just amazing to me. She has struggled so much, and my WW and her mother really emotionally beat my D(15) up...and to hear her say that was so awesome. I told her: 1.) I noticed that she was sharing in our conversation and I was glad that she felt comfortable enough to do so and 2.) That for her to say that she noticed the change was awesome because that means not only does she feel safe she is aware of it. It was just great.
I had the kids over for 4 days this week for Easter and we had a great time! Played outside a lot. My S(9) has gone football crazy the past year and just wants to be outside anytime he can and throw, run, catch, call plays whatever. We had a 'meatless' Good Friday with friends and had fish tacos. I grilled some salmon and cod and made a nectarine salsa and it was awesome. Then we went and did the candlelight Easter vigil mass Saturday night and again, just awesome.
What else...oh yeah...we went down to the St Patrick's day parade and had a lot of fun a couple of weeks ago. And I did something that I had been thinking about and just did it. In the car on the way back my 3-month AA chip fell out of my pocket. (My D(15) already knew about AA because of my WW and her absolutely terrible way of handling daughter IC session.) (Also, my WW and her parents are holding on to the notion of me being an addict as something that they can use against me. WW keeps saying things like, do you want your kids to know you're an alcoholic.) So...on the way back home that afternoon, I held up my chip and said I had something I wanted to tell them. I kept it short and simple. I said that the red chip is from a group I've been going to called 'Alcoholics Anonymous' and it represents me not having any alcohol for 3 months, but that (at that time) I was only a few days away from making 5 months sober. I told them my next chip will be yellow when I get to 6 months. I said that, to me, alcohol was something that was in my life that I wasn't in control of, not unlike playing electronics way too much, or overeating, or being extremely greedy, or anything else that could take over someone's life and that I had made a decision to get some help and get control of it. I told them that I was telling them for 2 reasons: 1.) I wanted them to know that I would always be completely honest with them and would share the events and struggles in my life...and that hopefully that would give them confidence if they ever needed or wanted to share something with me about their lives they could and 2.) I wanted them to understand that this was a challenge in my life that I was undertaking and I wanted them to be aware of it so that hopefully through my example they can see that they can overcome challenges in their lives. And that was about it. I asked if they had any questions or things they would like to say and everybody said no, so we just went and had lunch and went on with our day.
It felt really great taking control of that aspect, being honest with my children, and sharing with them the events of my life through the prism of the world as I see it...not as my WW will try to describe it...or anyone else.
Then...that evening...my S(9) and D(11) were hanging out and I walked in the living room and my son looked over and he said, "hey Dad, is there alcohol in beer?" I paused, and smiled, and, "Yes". He stopped, and looked at me thoughtfully then said, "So you haven't had beer in 5 months?" I said, "Well, on next Wednesday it will be 5 months, yes." He said, "Wow, that's really good. So...are you going to never drink beer again?" And I paused, and said, "Well...I can't say for sure, but that is the plan." And that was it.
So, lots of stuff going on. Moved into a 3 bedroom place last weekend and its really great. It was a much bigger emotional deal to me than I thought it would be, because its now like I have my own 'home' that is away from that life I had before. But...its great. Really. Still some good days and some bad. But...in general...more and more good days are happening.
On lawyers and the WW: The lawyer sitch is okay. My lawyer had suggested that perhaps I try to contact someone from my WW's work to see if I could get a witness about pre-separation activity with the OM. (In retrospect, I think I may have misunderstood her, but that's what I heard.) So, there was this guy that she works with who she told me she really doesn't get along with at all. I had met him a couple of times, and I called his cell # I got off of linked in. He didn't answer, but I left a voicemail and said, "Hey this is B, the husband of WW and I was wondering if you would be willing to talk to me about some things regarding WW. No pressure, and if you feel uncomfortable just don't respond, but if you're cool with it, I would appreciate it. Thank you." He never called back and I waited a day and called one more time. He didn't answer and I didn't leave a voicemail, and never called back.
Well...the following week...OMFG. So, WW was apparently out of town. When she got in town I guess this co-worker told her about my voicemail. So, sends me a text saying that I should expect a phone call from her office's (big huge company btw) security department to not contact anyone at her office anymore. AND, that she now has a security detail at her car and at the entrance to her parking garage to keep her safe from me. AND, she told me she was likely going to file a restraining order against me. I didn't respond to any of her texts. I also never got a call nor was I ever contacted in any way from her office or security.
So, then...the next day...the kids were back with me. And at 10:30pm I got a call on my cell from WW. Didn't answer. WW calls the apartment line. I didn't answer. The texts start rolling in: OMG I'm so worried about the kids! I don't trust them with you! You are acting so crazy and I just don't feel like the kids are safe with you. I'm going to come get them in the morning and take them back with me so that they will be safe. My mom and I are now carrying guns for our protection from you because you are so dangerous! ....I never responded...I had cooked baked chicken thighs and fried yellow squash for dinner and the kids were all in bed....then my D(15) comes out and says, "I just got a call from Mom and she wants to know if I'm safe, and if you are acting dangerous, and does she need to come get me and take me home." I still didn't respond to my WW in any way. Then another text comes in like an hour later basically saying...never mind. Freakin' crazy town.
Also...my WW had been telling me she had given ALL of our financial information to her lawyer and that she was going to get this separation agreement so cheap. Well...after over two weeks of trying, my lawyer finally gets her lawyer on the phone and WW's lawyer says that WW has provided exactly 'zero' financial documents and that all that he has done is guesstimating based on what information she has provided.
And then, last week I get a message from WW saying that she is getting a new lawyer and that I should expect to hear from him by the end of the day. Guess what...nothing...never heard anything.
So...that's a lot of typing and a pretty solid update, I guess.
I haven't been coming around much. But that's because I've been really busy and started legitimately working my AA program with my sponsor. Focusing on work. Spending the most I can with the kids when I get them, etc...
I do really like having this place as a resource. I've learned a lot here. And I will make an effort to come back and interact more. I realize that without interaction there's just no way for any of you to be too involved. But anyway..just wanted to share.
Take care all. Hope life is being kind to you all.
-B-
Oh yeah...one last thing. Rosa...I've been doing terrible on my exams and eating. Gained 15 pounds from eating peanut butter and haven't studied at all. But...I'm getting back on track starting this morning.