I'm starting a new thread before I'm asked to.
Link to old thread:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2624704&page=1I just re-read that entire thread. Wow. I'm glad I documented everything, it is hard to believe that so much can happen in such a short amount of time. And that I am still standing up! This has definitely taken a toll on my physical health, though.
Thank you to all the posters who wrote such caring, thoughtful advice. I really appreciate it.
I wanted to sum up where we are and what I feel has worked, and not worked, to the benefit of other posters. Obviously, it's been a roller-coaster and I don't know for sure that we're slowing down, but I'm hopeful - as always.
At this point, H seems to be putting in a real effort. Some of the behavior from his end that contributed to our problems, is much less frequent. He is doing some of the things that I have said are important to me. He seems warmer, and firm in his commitment to working on the M. This is what I notice about 50% of the time.
The other 50% of the time, I sense underlying anger/coldness toward me, frustration over not feeling heard or considered/respected, a need for total independence, and some expressed doubts about the future of our M.
However, this is improvement. Really great improvement, compared to where we were a year ago.
On my end, I DB about 50% of the time and fail at it about 50% of the time. Examples of the first is when I validate and support H about non-R issues, express positive feelings towards him in his LL, meet his needs, avoid R talks, keep things brief, don't complain or criticize (I have definitely improved greatly on the criticizing).
I fail at DBing when I pursue R talks, ask for my needs to be met, continue to R talk and press harder for my needs to be met.
Also, it has worked well for me to be very firm and strong on defending my legal rights if H were to leave me for OW. Refusing to leave the home or M bedroom. Being clear that what I want (when H asks) is to save our M, but that I will survive if it doesn't, and that he is of course free to leave if that is what he feels he must.
This is what I see when I look back and analyze what has worked and what's not working.
Emotionally, I go back and forth between feeling hopeful, angry, and defeated at a 50/30/20 ratio.
Marriage isn't for sissies!
Thanks for updating on your sitch, Painter. 50/ 50 sounds good!
You sound like you're moving in the right direction.
I was going to update the other day, but had to abandon the post half-written.
H has pulled away again. He says he feels nothing, being close to me feels forced, he doesn't even feel the connection when we ML. I have noticed that his interest suddenly dropped. He said something about separation but 'doesn't know how we would do that.' He doesn't seem to think there is anything in particular that has caused it.
Afterwards, he said it was a good conversation! He's done that before when he has aired his negative thoughts about our future. It's peculiar, and seems to demonstrate a certain lack of empathy (this is pretty consistent).
I said that it was somewhat confusing that he just 2 weeks ago was adamant that he did not want to S but wanted to work on the M, but that I also thought it would be natural for the euphoria after reconciling to dim. I also added that maybe he was confused as well? - he didn't reply - and that it is after all only 2 months since he (supposedly) ended a R with OW that has been going on in one form or another for more than 2 years, and it was natural to need time to process that. He made a slight face at that.
Not sure if he is in contact with her again. Have no evidence to indicate that he is. But then again, I didn't see how he had time all last year, and he somehow managed by calling from work and e-mailing for months and months. It's the first thought in my head, that he is talking to her. That he's pulling away because she's back in the picture. I hope it's not, but if it is, I hope I found out quickly.
I told him the next day that if he wants to keep working on the M, I'm willing to give it time, and it's what I prefer - but that if he wants to S, I'll be okay with that. To not let his concern about how I would react, stop him from being honest. I assured him that I will be okay regardless what happens.
And I asked him to *please* be honest. That the worst is secrets and lies, it hurts more than anything else. He nodded.
Then for some strange reason, I've had a great day today, woke up feeling better than I have in weeks. I have slept in my own bedroom after his statements above a couple of days ago, it just didn't feel right to share his bed right now.
Also had a session with DB-counselor, we talked about me, then about what works with H and to keep doing that (communication-wise, I described it in the first post in this thread), and about our different communication styles. She helped me see what exactly I was doing right
and what I can't change in H because it's gender-based communication style.
Later in the day, I had a really moving conversation with a random young man about his childhood and background - he is adopted, like H, and we just had this great, open conversation about what that's like.
H and I had dinner and watched TV, completely peacefully.
Ended the evening with a long, scheduled work call, so I'm staying busy in many ways.
Tomorrow will all be working from home, Friday I have an all-day art class. I seem to be able to focus and not be devastated by H's twists and turns. In some ways, it's almost better when I think we're going to split, because when we're working on the M, I don't feel like I get my needs met very much. When we're not trying, I don't put my needs out there so it's easier.
I just made some calculations and found that H and I can manage a S if one financial puzzle piece falls into place. I feel relieved - it's just reassuring to have that knowledge.
Painter - I took the time last night to leave you a long, thought out response...and it is not here! LOL That happens sometimes.
You really are my hero. You've been working at this for such a long time. I completely respect you for that. M is a big deal, and should be treated as such. If, after all the work you've put in, it still doesn't work out - I can guarantee it's not because of something you did or didn't do.
To me, your H shows all the signs of MLC confusion. "Yes" one minute, and "no" the next -knowing the right thing to do, and not really wanting to do it - I love you, I don't love you enough. It all sounds so familiar to me. It's heartbreaking, isn't it?
I want you to know, I'm completely behind you, whatever you decide to do. You matter. You've been so busy trying to salvage what may not be salvageable at the moment - I'm sure it does feel freeing to imagine NOT working on it for a while. What a burden lifted from you!
This DBing is hard work. It gets exhausting when only one half of a couple is doing the heavy lifting. I don't feel like you're giving up - I just sense that you need a break, and H needs time to really think about just what it is he wants. He needs to realize just how wonderful you are. I can see it, easily. He needs to get there, too.
Whatever you need, whatever support and prayers you require - I'll be happy to provide. You deserve really good things, Painter. I'll do my part to help you get them.
Thank you for your sweet words, Ancaire, they really felt uplifting.
We have already decided that if we do S, I will stay here and H will move out. That makes it easier - I don't have to think about finding a place or moving my stuff.
I'm curious if I would actually be happier. I'm sure the initial peace would feel good, for both of us. It's been hard, not just on me.
Just had an interaction with H that I would like input on:
We sat down to watch TV, and I couldn't get the sound to work. Tried different controls and turning the TV off and on again. Still no sound.
H went off on me and said that this is what he's said over and over, that I let the TV stay on for hours and hours on end without watching, and now I had broken it.
It's not true that I leave the TV on without watching it - what will happen is that I'm watching/listening from the kitchen while cooking dinner, then he comes home and we start talking, then he goes into the living room and asks "why is the TV on when nobody's watching?" and I tell him I was watching until he walked in the door.
Lather, rinse, and repeat.
Suggestions for how to handle this? I think it's so unfair and nasty that I have a hard time staying calm. I pointed out that the TV is almost 10 years old and I did *not* leave it on for hours without watching.
Right after that, the sound worked and H claimed I hadn't turned it up high enough when I was trying earlier. Maybe, maybe not - I don't know. I thought I did.
I took my dinner and ate in my office. I'm there now, but my back hurts so I think I'm going to go to bed. The strange thing is that we had just a little earlier had a short, but joking exchange about how he blames me for everything - I said, 'I know I'm to blame for everything that hasn't turned out the way you wanted it in your life', and he replied, 'You're damn right you are! That's great that you finally got it!'
He's been much more aggressive lately. It's similar to when he first got involved with OW.
Hi Painter, I'm a little like your H in that I hate the TV to be on for longer periods of time as background - I find it stressful. I only like to have the TV on to watch a programme and then I turn it off. Do you think that's what he is trying to express to you, but it's coming out as aggressive and snarky comments?
I felt that kind of aggression from my H too. One of his areas of focus was the pants I wore & he would keep mentioning them in a snarky way. Whether this means he is in touch with OP, IDK. Have you seen other potential signs of this. It could just mean that he is having an 'off' phase WRT his feelings about the M.
Maybe it's a good time to change things up a little with the TV? Try having some calming music playing for yourself and a nice candle lit? See what effect that has? I'm not suggesting trying to contort yourself to please him, but it would be good to break the old wash, rinse, repeat cycle WRT the TV perhaps?
Hope this helps a little xx
Thank you for the idea, and I'm sorry your H criticized your pants! That is really rude and uncalled for.
H has the TV on between dinner and bedtime and on some weekends to binge-watch Netflix series, but he's annoyed that I have it on when he's not here, or when he is home and I'm watching something he doesn't want to watch. He talks about how the TV only has a certain numbers of hours before it dies. It's a total double standard and very unreasonable, IMHO, so I'm struggling to find a way to validate. It makes me feel like he's counting what it costs for me to live here, if that makes sense.
Hi Painter,
I am wondering if you could lend your expertise to kiwiGAL. She is asking some questions about co-parenting. I have always loved your advice in this area. I think kiwiGAL would benefit from knowledge.
Cheers Jellyxxx
Sure, I will pop over there!
Not sure if I should update. Hardly anything new to tell. H and I drift apart, then are drawn back together, then drift apart, etc.
But it feels a lot more apart than together - just glimpses of closeness that H seems to quickly resent. I long for someone who wants to hold my hand and hug me, who wants to spend time together. Not someone who doesn't like being touched or who feels like he is 'forced' if he gives me a hug, and who can't think of a single thing we can do to spend time together.
In conversations, he frequently chooses to bring up something he knows we disagree about. There is also a lot of complaining and negativity about other people. I really want to live with a positive and tolerant attitude, not angry and suspicious. It has always seemed to me that he feeds off anger and talking badly about others.
I am looking very hard these days at what this R really is. It's not what I want for myself, and it hasn't been in a long time. I read many stories here where people were happy for a long time before it went bad. I don't think H and I have been truly happy since back when we were dating. He started raging at me from the day I moved in, and I have never been able to figure out why. He wouldn't tell me when I asked, and wouldn't come to counseling with me. It's been expected that I should be a mind-reader. I'm really bad at that.
What I take from what he says now, is that he feels controlled and like his space is invaded by having a partner. He complains about my presence, the money I cost. We may just be a poor fit.
I always felt that his lack of decisiveness and planning left it up to me to plan and be decisive. Turns out he really wants to just be impulsive and do what he wants, when he wants it. It was a little tricky to live like that with 3 kids, an aging parent (his) and an old house, but the urge seems to be so strong that it sounds like he feels that he has been robbed of his freedom for the last 15 years.
There are signs of a MLC, I think? The almost desperate urge for freedom, wanting to be his own master, buying a motorcycle - but in actuality spending his time exhausted on the couch, watching TV...
"I don't think H and I have been truly happy since back when we were dating." This is what my wife says, that she has not been happy for a very long time in this marriage.
"Turns out he really wants to just be impulsive and do what he wants, when he wants it." Again sounds like my life. Most of the time she chooses to stay in her room or work. She answers only to herself.
"There are signs of a MLC, I think? The almost desperate urge for freedom, wanting to be his own master" I don't know if my wife is in a MLC but sometimes I think so.
The point of my post is to simple say your not alone. I have the same circumstance as you, except my wife does not talk to me. I am now back to being ignored when I say "Good Morning". Hang in ther Painter, the future will become clear in it's own time. Peace
Thank you, Mutatio. I'm sorry she is not even cordial to you. Rudeness really ticks me off, it is so unnecessary. We just have to continue to be faithful to our own values and standards.
H has expressed that over the years my unhappiness, or rather dissatisfaction/longing for more connection, has made him feel hopeless about the M. I feel bad about that. I also feel bad that he has the attitude (and he has said this straight out many times) that a R should not require any effort or work. He feels that if it's not right just as it is, it's better to move on. I think this is the reason I'm wife #5.
I had a good session with the MC today (H didn't want to come anymore). She urged me to get back into writing. I can tell I have more creativity bubbling up these days.
H is back, he was gone a week (business). He was very tired when he came back. He gave me a hug that was more like leaning on me to show how exhausted he was. That was the only physical contact we had. We had dinner and watched TV, then he went to bed (separate bedroom).
I was probably not at my most cheerful, we haven't had much communication while he was gone, and yesterday's call was not great. I had prepared dinner for him, though.
He made some negative assumptions about things taking place at home while he was gone (noticed some things were different and assumed I had done something he doesn't like). He was wrong, and I told him what the cause was. I get exhausted trying to explain these things to him, he makes me feel so defensive, like he's always looking to attack me for something.
I can't live with this. I can't live with someone who won't or can't communicate except negatively. I spend way too much time guessing what he wants or thinks, he's holding my attention by being so withholding. It's the whole intermittent reinforcement thing.
If I have to GAL to the degree that I don't even think about my R or H, it seems pointless.
I need a partner who has self-insight and can express himself. This is killing me slowly, I can't live like this. I've tried to communicate for 15 years, but his idea of talking is that he says what he thinks and that's the end of it.
He says he wants to save the M and doesn't want to S, but he's not doing the work because he 'doesn't like to be told what to do' and thinks it should be all organic and come naturally. Counseling is like 'telling a neighbor about our problems'. He can't think of a single thing we can do together on our time off, because he just wants to do the one thing he enjoys most (guy stuff) and is not willing to compromise on that (which he himself volunteered was being a little difficult).
We can manage a S financially, but I'm not sure at this point if I should take the initiative (I would want him to move out and he knows that) or just keep on working towards more independence.
Officially, we're 'piecing'. He's not doing much of anything, it feels like. He is trying to control his temper, and I think he's doing better, which is great. It really is, after 15 years I didn't think it was possible. Maybe it will benefit #6. I really think I would like to S. I have been trying to work this for 2 years but I don't know if I have anything left.
I don't think he likes me or wants to be with me. I saw his face when he talked about OW (last winter) and he doesn't have any of those feelings for me. I've seen his big grin in the selfie they took of themselves and he just got weird and moved away when I tried to take a picture of us on a rare outing last fall.
If anyone has anything hopeful to contribute, please feel free! I'm all out today.
Not much to contribute other than a hug Painter. You sound exhausted and rightly so. Cruelty is draining, energetically and physically. I can only imagine the level of fatigue and egg shell walking you must be dealing with.
I'm sorry I don't have more for you other than support and empathy.
And another hug,
PP
Hey Painter,
I don't think I've ever posted on you sitch but wanted you to know I'm thinking of you.
Thorn
Thank you, both of you.
It's good to be among friends.
Ah, Painter, you were so kind and helpful to me - and are going through so much yourself. You are wonderful to be so thoughtful - thank you and thinking of you.
Hi Painter--I've never posted on your thread either, and I only wish I had something hopeful to contribute. Sadly, we seem to be in the same sinking ship.
I thought H and I were piecing too, after he told me in January that he was not leaving me and I did not have to live in fear. I have no 'concrete' evidence of EA or PA, but just this week PA seems likely, as he went on a biz trip with 3 condoms and 5 Cialis, but came home with no condoms and 4 Cialis. He was home just in time to grab 2 more Cialis and is off on another biz trip for 9 days. Communication is minimal when he is on trips, but it feels more purposeful now. Like he is intentionally avoiding me. Well--he probably is!!
I too want to save my M. And he knows it. I know the road to reconciliation is not an easy one, but I get the same things from my H--he's in, he's out, he's hot, he's cold. I cannot imagine doing this for two years!! My heart just breaks for you.
Painter,
I'm sorry for your sitch.
It sounds like your love languages are different, and he's not interested in learning a new language. Not to say he's lazy, bu t learning how to selflessly love someone else is tough, and most couples try to rely on the old 'infatuation' to get them through their marriage, without any work.
Did he have a rough childhood? What is his negativity coming from? My wife had an ok childhood, but a mother who was verbally abused by an alcoholic father, so I think mom passed some bad traits to daughter. How I'd long for a wife who would want to hold hands, hug, kiss, and want to spend time with me! She's never really done that.
How's his self-esteem? Is his weight in check? Was he picked on as a kid? Lose a sibling or parent early? Just thinking of ways to explain why he's so upset all the time.
I'd keep poking around - would a slow
drip of an EA/PA be happening?
Kiwi, Mel and Trumpet, thank you for support and input!
Posting from phone so will have to answer later.
Very angry and upset tonight. Just lots of very confused feelings. Not sure if I'm being manipulated or what.
Hi painter,
You are a sharp, intelligent woman and offer so much insight to many of us on here.
A big part of me feels that unless WAS is truly remorseful and begging for us back, piecing will not go well. I am seeing that with my own situation as well.
My husbands actions demonstrate that he does not want reconciliation. I had so much hope based on 1 conversation, but I now realize I have to go back to detachment. For me to have hope and force work on it when he does not want it, is only bringing me heart ache.
Right now I am giving him as much space as possible. In a month I will reassess whether I really want to wait anymore. We are not powerless in this. We can leave anytime we want to.
I am truly sorry you are going through this. This is a lot of ups and downs for you. Your boundaries are being crossed and its a really difficult situation.
Julie
Julie, thank you for the very flattering words.
Trumpet, yes, there are definitely things in H's background that explain why he behaves this way. However, if he's not interested in looking at it, there's nothing I can do.
We (or maybe rather I) have decided to separate. I am looking for a place for H - who would prefer that I leave, but there are many reasons I won't. That causes a little tension in waves, but he reins himself in for the most part.
It just felt like we were friends with benefits. Not a situation I want to be in with my H. It felt demeaning and humiliating on a daily basis.
I told him this morning that I want to be in a relationship that is loving, caring, affectionate, and committed. I want to be with someone who wants to hold my hand, spend time with me, and be nice to me. He said he didn't think we could get there. So I said that it's unfair to waste my time if he has decided that he doesn't have those feelings for me and won't do what he can to get them back (he feels he has done everything, I don't agree - but that's a moot point now. He lists his main achievement as 'no longer yelling at me').
So we've been discussing practicalities today. He has been sad, upset, tried to hug me (he suddenly felt 'not pressured') and I pulled away. I told him it was mean to suddenly give me what I've been missing after we decide to split. Like if he gave up on our M after 2 years of no sex and I tried to seduce him an hour later.
Basically, he can't handle the pressure of being married. He can only do things that make him feel good. He can only do what he feels from moment to moment, and it can change from day to day. I can't live like that.
Honestly - I look forward to being alone. I want to clean the place up, throw out half of what is here, rearrange, have girl parties, eat what I want when I want - and not having to walk on eggshells because the mood can change in the blink of an eye.
I'm sure I'll be lonely - but I honestly don't know if I can be much more lonely than I already am...
I should add - I told H very clearly that I would prefer to have the kind of loving, affectionate relationship that I need with him, but if he isn't interested, he needs to set me free so I have a chance to find it with someone else.
He's still trying to say I'm the one who is breaking up the M.
After he 3 rounds of an EA/PA with the same OW and his refusal to continue MC.
He's still trying to say I'm the one who is breaking up the M.
Yes.
You talk about feeling exhausted, used, neglected. You talk about how he doesn't live up to your ideals of a man in so many ways. You talk about how he won't go to counseling or do the work.
There is a name for women like this: WAS.
No man will be the person you think they ought to be. They will be their own man. You will either learn to appreciate them for who they are, or you will be miserably married.
Just because he won't go to counseling or do what you want him to do, that doesn't mean he isn't willing to "do the work". It means he doesn't want to live his life as your puppet. He is doing the work in other ways. Just because he says he can't see a way for it to work, doesn't mean that feelings couldn't change if time was allowed to pass in a healthier way.
As for the EA/PAs...how is that relevant at this point if he ended them and has recommitted to the M? You cling to his failure from the past as a reason to leave now?
Bottom line, every marriage looks horrible at it's worst. Every man looks abusive, negligent, unsophisticated, and exasperatingly unwilling to fit into the plans of their women. There's a vicious circle where a man feels controlled or manipulated by criticism and so withdraw further into their cave to stay safe and cope. I'll bet H would be happy with another woman, if she didn't do these things, and accepted him as he was. But I think he could be just as happy with you if you did the same thing. You say he won't do the work. I say it takes one to tango.
I don't have all the answers, but walking away isn't the answer. You don't need my permission to separate or leave your marriage, but you don't have it nevertheless.
I know you feel strongly about this, Zues, but I won't live in a M that is nothing but friends with benefits. H has refused to communicate, changed the terms of the M and broken the trust, so yes, I consider him pretty responsible for the breakdown of this M.
He says he has recommitted to the M, but is in fact very withholding and says right out that he goes by how he feels from day to day. That's not what I call committment. He refuses to hug me, touch me or to spend time with me. He wants to ML every now and then, but that's the only time we are anything but roommates.
I am accepting of H the way he is, I don't have a problem with us being different or having different views, needs, perspectives or opinions. To me, that is enriching. He is the one who can't tolerate that I'm different, and who is frequently very angry at me for having other opinions or want to do something differently. He seems to feel he should have authority over me, and challenges me every day about issues he knows we disagree on to try to start a fight.
I have never said anything about 'my ideal of a man'. I have said that this relationship does not give me what I need, namely affection and love.
The thing is - I'm equally accepting of myself and what I need, so I'm going to stop ignoring the damage this is doing to my soul and heart and work my way back to health. The situation is breaking me down - it's becoming a matter of emotional survival.
I was thinking about relationships I had before and felt a small shock when I remembered that I didn't use to be afraid of saying anything to my partner in case they had a rage fit. And that it doesn't have to be like that.
It's interesting to see that since yesterday, when I suggested he move out, he has given me two warm hugs, taken my hand to hold, and felt very warmly towards me. I know that if we decided to give it another try, he'd pull right back again. He only wants me when he thinks he can't have me. I'm getting off this rollercoaster.
Painter, I know this was a difficult decision for you. Who knows, maybe in future husband will be willing to really work on his 180s and there will be chance for reconciliation. Maybe this is just the kick in the pants for husband to get his act together. Please continue to post and update us as to how you are doing.
Zues, I understand your committment to marriage, but when a spouse is serial cheating I really feel like the betrayed person has more to worry about then just her emotional health. Betrayed spouse continues to risk their physical health with intimacy. staying with a husband involved off and on with other woman can be very dangerous. From what I understood, painter frequently suspected husband was involved with other woman?
Also, I am beginning to think that for a reconciliation to really work, a cheating spouse has to be remourseful and truly be willing to put the work in. I feel like the cheating spouse has to really really feel guilty or what is to keep them from doing it again? Life is filled with stress and hardships. It's a guarantee. So if one day in future There is sickness or someone loses job or family member what is to keep the betrayer from resorting to another affair? They never really learned consequences or regretted their actions from before or did the necessary work on themselves to prevent it from happening again.
There are many posters here who reconciled with spouse and then return on here again because WAS did same thing.
I know how scary it must be to take the risk in dating/ marrying a new partner that might potentially betray. But it's actually more scary when you take back an old partner that you know will betray. Especially when they are not truly remorseful.
The ones that are truly remorseful are many of the LBS who are doing 180s, reading tons of relationship books, working on empathising and validating and forgiving their spouses.
If reconciliation is all driven by the LBS then I don't see how it is possible to make it work.
Hi Ju,
Thank you for your support. Yes, it's been a very difficult decision that has taken me more than two years to reach.
When we have discussed the causes of the A, H points to me and something I said or did (including things that happened *after* the EA had been going on for a year). Not saying I'm blame free, but he didn't have to have an A, etc.
Although he feels bad about hurting me, he doesn't seem to feel he did anything wrong *considering the circumstances*, and he also expresses that it is up to me to make sure he doesn't do this again, by behaving a certain way.
He believes our R hinges on how he feels about it from day to day, and on my behavior. He feel that he mostly reacts to my words and actions - although he will at times acknowledge that he's not the easiest person to live with.
If we discuss making a commitment for the future, he feels 'pressured' and loses his feelings for me, and gets resentful.
He also thinks that I should be completely over the A and trust him at this point, because it's over for him (he says), and the past is behind us. Two months should be more than enough time to 'get over it'.
This is why I think a separation is best for us, and why I don't take the blame for it, even if I'm the one pointing out the elephant in the room.
I don't even feel very angry or like he is a bad person - I just think he's confused, emotionally immature, and more than a little self-centered and spoiled. He's a nice guy (when he's in a good mood) and a hard worker, just not very good at impulse control, and some problems with being honest in relationships. Obviously I care for him and wanted to save our R - otherwise I wouldn't have put myself through all of this, but I'm not going to list all the reasons why in this post.
I know how scary it must be to take the risk in dating/ marrying a new partner that might potentially betray. But it's actually more scary when you take back an old partner that you know will betray. Especially when they are not truly remorseful.
I don't plan on dating anytime soon, but that's a great point you make.
Hi painter just wanted to say that I'm thinking of you I know what you are going through.
When they say focus on yourself .....they really are not wrong
I am a bit of a control freak and I used to believe that I could control things I cannot control others I can control myself.
Take care
Hugs
Ghost x
Painter, you have tried and have forgiven what most could not find it in their heart to forgive.
Your emotional well-being is number one. I am sure this was a very hard decision to come to and it was one you did not take lightly at all.
You may be the WAS right now, but it does not put you in your H's category.
Zeus, the covenant of marriage is so much more than staying married no matter what. I bet if you ask Painter, it's not so much that her needs aren't getting met. It's the unwillingness of her partner to even TRY to compromise and work as a partnership, which a marriage is, to meet those needs.
Painter, I'm sorry it ended this way for you. But you fought the good fight and are now taking care of your own emotional well-being by getting off that roller coaster. That's a very brave thing to do.
Hi Ghost,
I'm curious what you saw as controlling in my post?
I am not trying to control anyone, and my focus is very much on myself and my own future, which I'm actually very excited about (but don't post much about), whether it involves H or nobody or someone else (and that feels actually very secondary to me right now). My post above was in response to Ju to share my thoughs of why I don't think H is truly committed or has the right mindset for a lasting R. And I'm okay with that. He is who he is.
The challenge now is to maintain an amicable cooperation through the process.
Ginger, thank you for your kind words and support.
I said a year ago that I couldn't give up on my M until I felt I had left no stone unturned, and now I've run out of stones. I'm very much at piece with the decision.
You said something very insightful:
I bet if you ask Painter, it's not so much that her needs aren't getting met. It's the unwillingness of her partner to even TRY to compromise and work as a partnership, which a marriage is, to meet those needs.
It's very right. H's unwillingness to do anything that he doesn't feel the spontaneous urge to do on his own tells me he's a fair weather H and any changes will be temporary. I don't feel resentful, it's just not something I can base my trust and future on. It also tells me there's no point in waiting it out because he's not going to change his basic philosophy about relationships.
We say an A is like an addiction. Well, addicts may relapse. The door has been opened, they know what's behind it and if the going gets touch, someone with high self-gratification impulse may feel drawn in there again.
Hi painter
Just to clarify I was not saying you were controlling I was purely saying that in any relationship you can only control your own feelings I guess I used to think I could control my partner but I cannot everyone has their own thoughts and feelings
I was controlling in my marrage I did not realise it but I was I was not saying you were
Hugs
Ghost
Ah, okay - thanks for the clarification. I was curious if you saw something I didn't see in my post.
I've probably been controlling, too - I think sometimes marriages come together when we look for certain traits in each other to balance out our own, but then we start to dislike it. I know for instance that my H initially loved that I was capable and could take care of things, because it freed him up from having to deal with many problems. Then he got resentful because he felt I was managing things too much and he didn't have enough say.
On the other hand, I liked his laid-back and relaxed attitude, but then felt he become irresponsible and selfish.
Frustrated today. H has been acting very, very nice for the last few days. I am looking at places to live that I can afford if I get a second job I'm hoping for, because I know Dr Jekyll is just here for a visit. We have openly been discussing the practicalities of a separation, very amicably.
H found out today that he may lose his job. That would make things financially impossible, plus it would send him into an emotional tailspin that he would take out on me (went through this 5 years ago, that was actually the beginning of the end and when he started the friendship with OW). He will find out for sure later in the month. I dread the next few weeks, because I expect him to be yelling and ranting about how I need to find a well-paid, full time job (he already started on the phone).
Unfortunately, I moved very far to marry H, and my skills didn't translate well to this area, plus it's now been many years since I last worked in my field. I stayed home for years to take care of the children and elderly MIL. I have kept my skills fairly updated, but it's hard to demonstrate that to a potential employer. I was lucky to get the part time job I have now, and I can tell that my mental and physical condition makes me less capable than I used to be.
I will pray very hard for H not to be one of the ones to let go... He is the latest hire, but has some unique skills that may protect him.
Another update:
I have found a place I want to move to. Originally, I wanted H to move, but many factors make it easier/better for me to move. There are things that bother me about it (it feels like it's just being made too easy and convenient for H), but I have to look at the big picture. After initially feeling excited about looking at places and planning (trying to focus on the positives), I hit a wall today and feel very sad and defeated. I went to church but ended up feeling worse - like a total failure.
Next, it's about getting the financial situation figured out. I need another part-time job and we need to find out in two weeks if H gets to keep his job. So far, they don't seem to think he's is at risk.
We have agreed on a fair financial solutions for cash flow. We're not taking legal steps towards a formal S or D yet, I think. H will be supporting me.
H has been raging a bit, but not much at me, mostly at other situations. Today, he suddenly had an angry outburst at something and I went hot and cold with fear because I thought it was something I had done. As I try to imagine a life without H, I'm becoming more aware of the emotions I feel when I'm around him.
H still wants us to live like married while preparing to separate. He says a lot of different things that seem contradictory about it, and I told him I just can't - I have to detach emotionally in order to not hurt so much while going through with this. Every time we're together, I have to deal with the disappointment that it doesn't mean he wants to work on the M.
He says he understands, but continues to approach me. He hugs me and touches me more than before. I told him that if he wants to not S after all, I'm happy to give the M another try - but I need more than a fleeting feeling from him, an impulse that may not last more than a day or a weekend. He has to make a decision and a commitment. He doesn't give me that, and consistently pulls away when I say that. He says he thinks 'that we both need space'.
He doesn't understand why I want to stay for a year in the area, why I don't just move right away 1000 miles away to be with family. He is talking about how I could find a good job there (much better job market for me), and then he could also move there after a while if we decide to not split for good. I think it sounds really unlikely that we would ever decide to get back together if I'm that far away.
To me, this is about transitioning at a pace I'm comfortable with. I have ties here after many years, and friends I want to lean on in this situation. I could see moving in a year, but not until I am a little further along emotionally.
For those who read this and wonder if it is worth it to try to work on their M like I have done for almost 2 years if it's just going to end in an S/D anyway, I would say emphatically yes. I am at a completely different place emotionally now than I was when I first found out about the A. H is also much more present in a way that makes me think the A is over. I think it's really hitting him now what's happening, he's grieving and going through his own process. This is much, much less hurtful than when he was in the middle of the A fog and just threw me to the side. We can work on this as friends, without all the bitterness and anger I felt before. We're actually communicating better now than ever before.
Of course I'm upset and sad, but I feel that H and I are in this together and are actually supporting each other, instead of feeling completely alone and deserted, while thinking about him and OW enjoying themselves.
You have been strong.You still are. Good luck going forward.
After your rolkercoaster ride you deserve peace and happiness.I hope you find them.
Regarding H, he will no longer have a hiding place.You are moving out of the holding pattern. The next move is his. Don't expect him to suddenly change and give you what you need. Move forward for you, but it could happen.
Happy thoughts
Thank you, Roiste.
Tonight, this all feels surreal and silly. I look around in the home I created and wonder how I can leave it. The majority has been built from my ideas and plans - there are unique features I created that the builders had never done before. It was H's house before I moved in, but nobody would be able to recognize it if they hadn't been here since then. I put a lot of myself into this house, at the peak of my life. I feel broken and drained and old, can't imagine doing a fraction of all the stuff I used to ever again.
I'm questioning my decision to move out. I know H feels we both need space, and he seems to have just as much doubt about our future together as I have. My doubts are mostly due to his doubts, though. He keeps saying, if I just would stop picking on him (which is his word for 'disagreeing').
It has been difficult to handle that since we started talking about me moving out, he started showing the affection that I was missing so badly. He said 'the pressure was off'. And he said he hasn't stopped trying.
I am thoroughly confused, but hope I will feel better and stronger tomorrow. Nothing has actually changed, I'm just experiencing a moment of weakness.
don't have any advise, but I am impressed by your strength and growth. Sounds like you dropped the rope, and you are now truly focusing on you and your needs.
Very interesting comments from husband.
We cycled again. I started feeling hopeful and thought perhaps we had a chance, after all, and reached out to H. He had been so nice and said he wouldn't stop trying.
Tonight I got the backlash - irritable and firing questions at me impatiently, sudden anger and raging at me, putting me down, telling me how I've let him down (financially by not being able to get a full-time job, although he said before we married that I wouldn't have to work and I did land a part-time job last fall), rewriting history, blaming, making me feel like I am nothing and have no worth. It was a verbal beating that left me feeling devastated.
I told him that I felt this was a repeat of a pattern - we get close and he pushes me away again - which just made him angrier.
He was so angry and cold and mean that there was no way to try to have a rational conversation. I didn't show any anger back, just tried to calm things down and listened. And I said I thought he was way too angry and mean and I didn't deserve being talked to that way.
I almost feel now like I was beaten physically - it was so intense. I ache all over, probably from tension.
Well, I guess I asked for it. I got back on the rollercoaster and it just confirms what I thought. I experimented and observed the result... clearly not good.
Ouch. I'm so sorry this happened to you. The getting close and pushing away is so difficult.
Good morning painter, i am sorry you had such a tough interaction.
I am glad that you were able to keep your head and not take the bait for you to get angry back at him. This is a good thing.
Telling him that you do not deserve to be spoken to like that is a good thing.
Keep you head up.
Hi painter
Husband and I have similar dynamic. I guess the lesson learned (for me as well) is that for it to work they have to be the one to reach out. Not us. They are well aware of where we stand. If they want it bad enough, they will make it happen. Until/if then we have to just go about our lives. we both have to stop this pattern by not engaging or initiating. We also have to get ourselves in a better place, where we can take them or leave them. I think that is when they come back anyhow. When we no longer care. And that is even if you want them back. It will be hard for me to look back on this and forgive when I am no longer attached. So why do we want them back when their behaviors are so horrific?
I think maybe we are in a bit of denial, seeing small things as olive branches. look at the husbands on this board and the extremes they go to when they want their wives back. that's what would have to happen. And even then, if husband hasn't made his own 180s why would you think your marriage could work?
If I was dating someone, that did this (neglect, no return of phone calls, yelled at me) I would move forward and not look back. So what is keeping us participants in this very unhealthy cycle? What do you think?
I know how it feels to be on the receiving end of that type of verbal lashing. They are having little temper tantrums and I don't get it. Yet they say crap like " I haven't stopped trying". Can someone explain the psychology behind it? I think it's because deep down they like the power they wield. They know those little words keep us dangling on a string. I don't understand what they get out of being cruel like that. I don't think they are viewing us as people with feelings. we are their enemies. The people they blame for everything that went wrong in their lives.
We do have the power to say no, this is not healthy for me. No more.
let's fake detachment together so that it turns real. I have been not initiating anything for a month. i now have to get some GAL activities. What else can we do so they are not permanently on our minds?
Thank you, NYGal, Zephyr and Juju. I know you all know exactly what this feels like. I wish none of us had to experience this pain!
Juju, I don't know what causes the dynamic, I think it can be individual for each person. I believe it is something internal in H. He has FOO issues that could explain it. It's definitely not making him happy or satisfied. He was irritable all yesterday from when he came home, and he blew completely up over a very small thing that is a trigger issue for him.
I think what's keeping me in it is a mix of several factors: love, family, commitment and tenacity, strong bonds established over many years, fear of the losses I will experience if/when I move out - emotionally and financially.
The boyfriend I had before I met H, cheated on me and lied extensively. I immediately dropped all contact with him after telling him off. It was very, very painful and H knew how hurt I was by it. However, I wasn't even tempted to give it another try with him - there wasn't enough of an investment. I think a M is much more different than living together or dating than I thought it would be.
I actually felt like H was reaching out - he was giving me all the affection I had asked for, kept his anger under control, apologized for things, told me he wouldn't stop trying when I asked why he was being so nice after I said I would move out. He kept inviting me very nicely (no pressure) to come sleep in his bedroom.
For the most part, since the A, he has been much less angry - it has been a 180 for him, although he doesn't know what a 180 is. It's a change he has made. He is also much more open to conversation and is expressing himself much more. Last night he reverted to the way he used to be - and I suspect it was because we got close again.
But it's very, very painful to be on the receiving end of such anger after having made myself vulnerable again. My gut reaction is to get far, far away. I'm thinking about maybe not being home when he gets home from work, but I have a conference call that I would prefer to have in my home office so I don't know if it's possible.
I actually felt like H was reaching out - he was giving me all the affection I had asked for, kept his anger under control, apologized for things, told me he wouldn't stop trying when I asked why he was being so nice after I said I would move out. He kept inviting me very nicely (no pressure) to come sleep in his bedroom.
I agree. He seems to be reaching out.
For the most part, since the A, he has been much less angry - it has been a 180 for him, although he doesn't know what a 180 is. It's a change he has made. He is also much more open to conversation and is expressing himself much more.
I think it's ok to tell him this at some point. Approval, affirmation, acceptance...this is the predominant male need. If he gets the perception that you consider him immoral, immature, unreasonable, going through MLC, and that because of that you look down on him and dismiss him as a man and dismiss his views and needs as unreasonable or dysfunctional, he will likely withdraw and disconnect. If he feels that you view him as an equal, as a strong life partner, a whole person, with valid views and needs that should be represented and weighed even if you don't see it the same, he will feel respected, safe, and ultimately closer and able to open up more. This isn't "aimed" at you as I have no idea whether you've acknowledged this or not, just sharing general thoughts.
Tonight I got the backlash - irritable and firing questions at me impatiently, sudden anger and raging at me, putting me down, telling me how I've let him down...
...But it's very, very painful to be on the receiving end of such anger after having made myself vulnerable again. My gut reaction is to get far, far away. I'm thinking about maybe not being home when he gets home from work, but I have a conference call that I would prefer to have in my home office so I don't know if it's possible.
NO ONE should be subjected to this. I'm sorry you have felt so attacked and unsafe.
I definitely agree you should set some firm boundaries. If you feel attacked and unsafe you should be able to remove yourself from the situation without responding or escalating (good job!).
I don't think the answer is distancing or being unavailable. I don't see how this will improve the situation as it denies the opportunity for positive interactions as well. The goal should be to welcome the positives and abort the negatives.
FROM JU: They are having little temper tantrums and I don't get it. Yet they say crap like " I haven't stopped trying". Can someone explain the psychology behind it?
I don't think this is anything about animosity, power, punishment, or anything like that.
My take on this is that H feels
*dismissed*. People raise their voices when they feel that they aren't being heard. This can be either because their partner truly isn't hearing what they're saying, or more often because their partner is dismissing or minimizing it.
Note her reaction to H's outburst:
Tonight I got the backlash - irritable and firing questions at me impatiently, sudden anger and raging at me, putting me down, telling me how I've let him down (financially by not being able to get a full-time job, although he said before we married that I wouldn't have to work and I did land a part-time job last fall), rewriting history, blaming, making me feel like I am nothing and have no worth. It was a verbal beating that left me feeling devastated.
I told him that I felt this was a repeat of a pattern - we get close and he pushes me away again - which just made him angrier.
Does this seem to be validating?
Now, I already posted she shouldn't put up with verbal assault. So the part where she said nothing was being accomplished and she needed to end the conversation is absolutely spot on.
As for the content of what he's saying, though...this isn't validating. It seems to me she thinks H is unreasonable, hypocritical (debating the work issue), minimizing/dismissive ('rewriting history'), and focused on her dislike of his delivery. And I can see why he'd be upset with you saying 'the pattern is repeating', in his mind the pattern is repeating because you dismiss the needs he is voicing to you. And the same way that it hurts you to open up and then to be raged at, it hurts him to open up and then be dismissed.
It IS a cycle. He feels he isn't being heard and raises his voice. She gets upset that he's raising his voice and doesn't hear him. You know what I mean.
Not an easy spot for sure. I agree protecting yourself is a top priority. But I also agree that he's reaching out. I think if you place more of an emphasis on hearing what he's saying, validating him, and then acting as if what he's telling you about his experience, feelings, and needs, is every bit as true and real as yours, you will break the cycle.
What message is he trying to communicate that he feels is not getting through? What are the underlying needs that aren't being met that are causing him to feel so wounded? Are these issues worth divorcing for or is there some validity to them?
I felt compelled to post because this is so similar to my M. XW decided I was angry, unsafe, unreasonable, diagnosed me with a few FOO/personality disorders, then divorced me. That's one road. There is another.
Thank you for your thoughtful reply, Zues. I started this reply hours ago, but had to interrupt, so hoping it's not very disjointed. (I feel disjointed tonight.)
I have told H several times over the last few months that I have noticed the change in him, that he is much less angry, and also that we are having better conversations than ever before. I have said that I realize it's been a real effort that he has made consistently over some time now, and that I very much appreciate it and it has made things so much better. That it has given me hope.
Yesterday it was back to the old behavior, with the added coldness and blaming that entered the picture at the time of the A. And I have noticed repeatedly that it happens after we get closer.
One of the greatest difficulties I have in the R with H is that his reactions depend so much on his mood. The exact same thing can elicit completely different reactions depending on his mood and who did what.
You are right that he feels that I don't hear him - it is hard when he's hurling accusations that seem very unfair (he starts there, there is no escalation from a conversation > discussion > argument, he starts out in full rant mode on the top of his lungs. Imagine a military drill sergeant reaming out recruits.)
In this particular case, I was telling him that because I had built up a little surplus in my business account, I could help pay an expense he thought would be all on him. My mistake was to mention in passing a $25 business expense I have that he doesn't agree with.
He immediately started yelling and raging about it and went on for a full 15 minutes, which then turned into a rant about me not having a full-time job and all the income we could have had if I had worked for the last 10 years.
(Knowing what I know now, I would have preferred that, too. He could have paid for care for his mother, and I could have earned Social Security for myself.)
I used to have 2-3 jobs before we married, and I have always worked from home - still do. I have other opportunities for income that I am developing.
H feels that the work I do from home, doesn't count. He feels that I am making bad choices when it comes to the other things I pursue, and that it's just a repeat of what he perceives as past failures. He thinks that because my preferred jobs center around helping people, they are 'too altruistic'. He feels burdened with being the breadwinner. He has a sense of urgency when it comes to the finances, but we're not in a crisis and he has a *very* good income. Our financial situation has improved a lot over the last couple of years after a dip from when he was laid off, and it will keep improving (even in spite of any S/D). He is very angry over being unable to retire, which is due to poor choices he made a few years ago, against my wishes, but he blames on me not having had steady, high income during the M (which I couldn't get in this area).
He expresses resentment over choices going back over a decade. He remembers telling me I never had to work unless I wanted to, but 'things changed'. He doesn't think he can get past the resentment.
On my side, I know this: H likes to spend - a lot. This is a pattern that goes back to way before we met. I was never comfortable putting my foot down on the spending exactly because he was the breadwinner and we were adults when we married.
In reality, H would have taken any increased family income as an opportunity to buy more expensive, bigger toys and gadgets. He spends it all and more as soon as it comes in.
-------
After I typed the above, we had an interesting conversation where he said that he's just following his feelings from moment to moment. The reason he acted so affectionate and warm after we decided to split, was because he felt he could relax because I'm moving out. So it basically meant nothing in relation to the R, it was just that he could enjoy it without any commitment attached to it.
I asked him if he realized how confusing that was to me, that he suddenly gave me everything I've been begging for as soon as we had agreed that I would move out. He said he didn't realize that was all I had wanted. (Now who's not listening?)
When I said that I didn't think that was fair to me, to pull me back in with affection when I had already asked him to please not to do that unless he really meant something by it, because it made it that much more painful for me to detach again afterwards, he looked at me and said, 'It sounds so different coming from your side.'
I honestly don't see where we go from here. He will not go to MC. He wants me to move out.
Painter,
I hear so much of the exact same circular arguments in your R as I did in mine. It sounds literally like a cut and paste. My W too liked to spend, I was so walking on eggshells at the end that I hadn't even gone to the dentist so as to not be accused of spending and could keep the W's credit cards free and clear.
It's really hard to validate when you are being bombarded in such a way. You almost have to pick parts out to validate and not defend yourself on others.
My W finally went to MC, but it wasn't to try to work through anything - rather pretend to go through the motions while saying that there was nothing I could do to change her mind. I can think of an easier way to spend a grand. So if your H isn't interested, there's no reason to go unless you get somebody like Michele, who might be able to say something he'd listen to.
You're in a tough spot. If you leave, it will be much, much harder to reconcile. As I've found, if you have no reason to communicate such as kids - then that's kind of it. Well, you've seen what's been going on with me.
It's just so sad that money seems to be the root of the issue - whether or not that's an excuse I don't know. Sounds terribly familiar. Would you getting a full time job be a 180 he'd notice? If so, what good would come of it?
If indeed you are ready to let go, who knows. Maybe in leaving he'll really decide he misses you. I'm hearing a lot of positives coming from him in between the hurtful stuff. That's what I'd be focusing on if you want it to work. But the yelling rants have got to stop. I'm not sure how to diffuse that.
Hi 1313,
I think a lot of what comes out of the mouths of WS's is script... I was amazed when I read the quotes and then heard it from H. It's sort of fascinating, if it wasn't so sad and hurtful.
We actually saw a MC who had taken Michele's course, but she had a hard time with H. Not that I'm perfect, but I think I was more willing to put myself out there, learn and change. After he dropped out of MC, she said she is 100% pro-M, but wouldn't blame me if I left. It was mainly because of the way she saw him treat me in the sessions, and the things he admitted to doing outside of them. He really, really doesn't get that it is wrong - he just thinks that he deserves whatever he wants.
Some people get mean if you treat them nice. I am not a weak person and I don't let H get away with poor behavior, but I try to treat him like I would any person I care deeply for, and not get into a tit-for-tat mindset. I have tried to cultivate an 'us' attitude with compromising and working together, finding ways to communicate, but H is entrenched in a win/lose scenario and a power battle.
I am taking a break from packing - I started packing up boxes with stuff that can go to storage this morning and have been at it most of the day, and I'm exhausted.
My plan is to leave the area - I will go stay with family while saving for a downpayment so I can get myself a place to live. The job market is so much better there and I can probably get at least a temp job almost immediately.
My goal is to be fair with H when it comes to financials - I only want what is clearly mine of our possessions, one vehicle, and spousal support. I'm asking for quite a bit less than the guideline amount because I expect to make more money in the future than I do currently. There is really nothing else to get, there are no other assets to fight over. I have consulted with a very good and expensive D expert L several times, so I feel very good about it.
Well, the die is cast - my son is coming in 3 weeks to help me load up and drive 1000 miles back with all my stuff. It will be a very strange feeling. I don't expect to ever come back to this state or see my home again, and I've lived here for 15 years.
H is also hurting - but not enough to call it all off. He wants space and time to find out if he misses me or not. I'm pretty sure he'll 'stay busy' and not miss me at all, I told him I bet there will be another woman in here within 3 months. (3 weeks if it's OW.)
He keeps talking about maybe coming to visit, or even move after me - if I get a good job and he doesn't have to work full-time. I think he's just comforting himself and trying to feel a little better about the whole thing, that if it's not final, it's not so painful. For me, it just increases the pain by dragging it out.
I have been packing today, and made sure to pack a smaller box with CDs for the drive. It's all Aretha Franklin and other girl power music. My poor son...
This is going to be rough.
Oh, Painter. I am so sorry that all of this has happened to you, and after so many signs that gave you hope. That hope given and then taken back again is the cruelest thing that so many of us face. You have given your relationship the best possible chance it could have had. Stay strong.
Thank you, Phoebe. I was thinking it was going to be good to get off the rollercoaster, but now I'm just sad and heartbroken. Giving up is just so hard for me to do.
I want to DB for the next 3 weeks and not show H how sad I am, but I have no idea how I'll manage. It was easier when I felt there was hope.
You aren't giving up. You are moving on. What you are doing is brave and what you need to do to take care of you. It takes 2 to make it work. I hope your move gives you a beautiful new beginning.
Thank you, Ginger.
There is a small possibility that I can have the year I originally wanted and remain local, working where I am established already. Waiting for feedback to see if the owner of the place can commit to hiring me on a monthly basis. He wants to, but I don't know if he can afford it. I can tell from how I feel that it's what I would prefer. Also have my own place and not live in my son's guest room.
H wants us to act as if everything is okay until I leave. He talked to someone who invited us to dinner today (I've never met them) and he wants me to go. I guess it's his normal state of denial...
Should I go?
I went to dinner with H's old friend and his family. They hadn't seen each other in almost 40 years. It was very nice, they were great people. Very real and down to earth, lovely people to spend an evening with. Took my thoughts off what's coming for a few hours.
I asked H if he didn't think it was strange to go to dinner together and introduce me to an old friend as his wife when I'm leaving shortly? He didn't think so. "We're still married," was his reply.
Does anyone have any insight for me? Guys? (All my girlfriends thinks it's very odd.)
Hi Painter, from what you post, your H still sounds pretty conflicted to me. If you would prefer to stay local for a while, go for it. If you guys S, you can still focus on rebuilding your life and being minimally available to him. I do think there is less chance of reconciliation if there's a huge geographical distance involved - though I guess it depends if he has links with the area you would be going to.
JMHO of course & good luck with whatever you decide
Looks like I won't be staying local. I asked H to be really honest with me about what he feels, that if OW is still in the picture or he knows that he wants to separate with the intention of D, and is not interested in reconciling, I needed him to tell me so I can make the decisions that are best for me if the M is lost. He kept saying that the job market is so much better there (who cares!) and I was so happy when I visited (I do like it a lot better than this area), but finally said it wasn't right to keep me in limbo so I should go to start a new life where son lives.
He went to his room when I was packing last night, said he couldn't watch because it was so painful for him. I couldn't help saying that it was good for him that he didn't actually have to do it, then.
I read a sentence in a book the other day that stuck with me - about how easy it is to ignore the impulse to do good.
It seems like it's been a really quiet weekend here? Hopefully that means everyone is out GALlivanting!
I went to church today and had a lovely time, but it was tough, too, knowing how much I will miss it and the people there.
I'm not doing very well with DB'ing. I suppose I should make more of an effort, although it feels moot and I am really down and sad right now.
For the most part I'm nice and we cooperate well about household issues. I made H laugh a lot today and yesterday, but towards the evening it gets harder to keep the facade up. Something about the dark has always triggered anxiety for me. I guess with the night, there's no hope that anything will change for the better today.
I know I say things that make him feel guilty, and that is of course not very attractive. I'm not moping, but some of my anger and bitterness comes through at times. I tell myself they are truth darts, but maybe not...
I also tell him that I feel that this entire thing is surreal, especially because we get along fine 75% of the time.
He just repeats that he's not able to know what he feels with me here. He wants space. He is sad that I am moving out, but still wants me to (for some reason, that almost makes it worse).
What also makes it harder for me, is that this is not my country. I am fortunate to have my son here, but he is all I have.
Tomorrow, H will find out if he gets laid off (we don't think so, but these situations are unpredictable), and we are also taking our old dog to be put down this week. It's a very high level of stress for us both.
I wish for us all here that we wouldn't have to go through any of this. Not a single one of us have deserved this.
H's job is safe, so that's good news.
We are putting the oldest dog to sleep on Wednesday. He is getting weaker and is clearly miserable. It's been a year of steady downhill. We got him when our M was new - it brings back a lot of memories.
I am focusing on the things I can do in the city I'm moving to (it's quite rural here). Looking up activities online and contacting friends I made there when I visited before. It helps more than I expected to turn my mind onto that.
Also realized that it would be too easy to turn to H for support if I stayed close. When I move so far away, I *have* to manage on my own.
I still can't make complete sense of his behavior. I would like to understand so I can respond appropriately. I can't tell if he is conflicted, or relieved I'm leaving and just eating cake. Tonight, he came into my office and stroked my hair, commenting on how soft it was. He keeps touching me and looking at me.
I have spent some time thinking about how it was before he switched. That's how it has been for the majority of the time, so that's most likely reality. I'm trying not to let this throw me.
Painter, just got caught up on your situation. I am sorry to hear how things have progressed, but that being said, you are a strong and amazing woman and I know you will get through this.
I'm not doing very well with DB'ing. I suppose I should make more of an effort, although it feels moot and I am really down and sad right now.
I don't think DBing is a moot point. I hope this does not sound too harsh, but I have actually felt that you have often been more focused on saving your M, rather than saving Painter. I think that your H probably senses this as he never really seemed to be fully committed to piecing. It is actually more important than ever to keep DBing, but now is the opportunity to focus completely to you.
For the most part I'm nice and we cooperate well about household issues. I made H laugh a lot today and yesterday, but towards the evening it gets harder to keep the facade up.
This seems like good DBing. Given the situation it is hard to be perfect.
Something about the dark has always triggered anxiety for me. I guess with the night, there's no hope that anything will change for the better today.
I have similar anxiety with flying back home from trips for some reason. I think it is the idea and fear of not coming home to someone or having something horrible happen and I am all alone. My H and his family is all of the family I have here where I live, so I have to stop and remind myself of my friends. This is the one thing I still struggle with, but it is slowly getting better.
I wish for us all here that we wouldn't have to go through any of this. Not a single one of us have deserved this.
agreed! Sending a big hug and positive thoughts your way.
I did a name change, so you might now know who this is straight away.
Hi! I saw your new thread yesterday and was going to reply but didn't have time then.
Thank you for the reminder about DB'ing, you're absolutely right. I know I'll be okay and get busy once I've relocated, but it's very difficult right now. It's especially hard living with H and with him being so affectionate. I think I lost a lot of DB'ing momentum last year, and then finding out he had been back in touch with OW for most of it (which explained a lot).
Hope to see more posts from you!
H is still doing this dance. Last week, I responded to his warmth and affection, thought perhaps there was hope, and he promptly distanced himself again. Not terrible, just a little. He was not reconsidering the S, but he said the pressure was off and it made him have lots of warm feelings toward me.
These last two days, I feel like I got more of a grip on my grief and panic over moving, and was focusing on my future and the opportunities. The anxiety subsided quite a bit. I took emotionally charge and consciously shifted my attention (amazing how that works!). I had dinner out with a friend yesterday so didn't see H at all.
Today, we put our first family pet to sleep - it was time and we don't regret it - but we were both a little emotional. H 'handles' that by acting extra indifferent and a little obnoxious. Tonight, he put his head in my lap and laid there for a while. He normally would NEVER do this. Then he hugged me, held me and asked me to come in and sleep with him. Not ML, unless I wanted to, just be together. I laughed a little and said I've heard that line from guys before.
He's obviously feeling lonely and wants me to take that feeling away. I asked him breezily and without expectation (because I told him before that that's not happening unless he changes his mind about the S) 'Did you change your mind about the S?' He made a little bit of a face, pulled out of the hug, and said evasively, 'Well, you're the one who brought up a separation agreement.' (I had asked him earlier if he wanted a formal agreement in place before I leave, or how separate he wanted this S to be - i.e. does he want me off the bank account, transfer titles, etc.)
That's a very typical H-reply. Not a straight yes or no, just evasive, beating around the bush-, indirect replies that places the responsibility back on me. It's his reflex. If he has time to consider and understands that a question is serious, and the stars are properly aligned, he can answer much more thoughtfully.
I didn't say anything more, didn't feel upset, disappointed, nothing. Just observing. He kept hinting as he puttered around and finally went to bed.
Was that the right way to handle this?
Are those your reasonable boundaries?
Was this enforcing?
Was this the right time to enforce or was it for the sake of it?
Is this getting you towards your goal?
Just asking, as always no V is ok.
V
Vanilla asked:
Are those your reasonable boundaries?
Yes.
Was this enforcing?
Yes.
Was this the right time to enforce or was it for the sake of it?
I believe it was the right time to enforce. It was to protect myself from being yo-yo'ed once again. It's happened already a number of times and I had no indication anything would be different this timme.
Is this getting you towards your goal?
Idk. Depends on what the goal is... To protect myself so I hurt less when I leave in 2 weeks - yes.
So I had started writing a post about H and our interactions, but I deleted it because I just couldn't be bothered. Is that a good sign?
H and I interact in a friendly way most of the time. He is extremely friendly. We are in many ways getting along better now than we did for the most of our M.
I struggle with packing and thinking about what's coming, so that bubbles up sometimes.
H keeps making advances and I reply: 'Have you changed your mind about separating?' He smiles sheepishly and deflects - so, no.
No change. Nothing feels real, it's like being awake in a nightmare.
You were right to not give in to the nice act. If he wants in, he will have to clearly decide that.
I am sorry this is hard for you. Keep strong.
Thank you, Roiste. I so appreciate all the support on this board.
Our MC (I went by myself today, as I have since May) agrees - she said she sees this all the time (the nice behavior after settling on S or D) and to not be drawn in. She said nothing will change until I walk away, if it changes at all.
I talked to H again about his changed behavior today, and he said it's a mix of relief, a feeling that I can't get to him anymore (emotionally safe from criticism and control), and sadness. He also wanted to ML until I left because he'll miss it and he is attracted to me when I'm physically present. He said he'll leave me alone until I leave because he understands that it's confusing.
These are feelings that are sort of foreign to me. If I broke off a R, I wouldn't try to 'milk it' until the other person moved out. I'd pull away immediately. Otherwise I'd feel like I was taking advantage of the other person. He claims it's a 'guy thing'. Is it?
He said that he feels like he's in a box when he's in the R. That's why he's been hiding emotionally behind a wall. He agrees that he's been doing that, and only came out when it was decided I was leaving. I feel sad that he felt he had to hide like that. I'm sure it got a lot worse with the A because of course I disapproved of that.
Painter,
Your husband, to me, seems immature. Did something possibly happen in his childhood? He's not able to accurately figure out his emotions, and what to do with them... maybe?
I know I've grown tremendously understanding my basic emotions, secondary emotions, and the triggers that spur them. I can recognize why I'm getting upset, that I AM upset, or hurt, or happy, and express that emotion verbally, and not using sarcasm, passive-aggressiveness, hurting words, or silence to express them - telling someone what I'm feeling and why. Cool stuff I've picked up in counseling, and I feel like an adult now!!! LOL, 40 years old, and I finally feel like I have a grasp of this grown-up adult thing.
I'm SOOO sorry to hear things haven't worked out. I feel like you've done a lot of growing up and self-discovery. Your H might need to hit bottom and figure himself out before he knows what he wants and how to respond appropriately. The question then - will you still be available and around? (This is my question of the moment)
Trumpet, no, H is not what you'd call self-aware. It seems like he reacts and acts without questioning his own motives. What he feels and what he does, is just right to him. There's no self-doubt there. Because he wants it, it must be right. Must be nice to feel that way, really!
He finds it painful and exhausting to talk about feelings or problems and does what he can to avoid it. That's part of the reason he doesn't think we're a 'good match' - I want to talk about stuff and he just wants to have his needs met and then hang out with his buddies. I make him question himself and our interactions, and he experiences that as criticism and lack of support.
He can be very authoritarian when I don't agree with him - just today he was yelling 'I'm telling you ...!' when I didn't agree with something he said. And then he says that I'm so difficult and won't listen, and that I don't accept his authority and that's why he wants to D.
Since you've been through the counseling process, you'll know what I'm probably like having done that on and off since I was 20, and on top of that studied psychology. I have no problem talking about the human experience! And I have really enjoyed the DB process for myself.
Maybe we really are ill-suited... Even the MC asked how *on earth* we had ended up together.
H is nearing retirement age and he is very clear that he doesn't think he'll change or that he even wants to. He experiences counselors as intrusive strangers and he is mostly uncomfortable with them.
I really don't expect to ever see him again once I leave next week... But I will take up residence in your lovely city so I have nice things to look forward to!
Church today, shopping and lunch with a friend, then home to work on the S agreement with H.
H is angry that I want to run it by my L. (He downloaded it from a paid, state-specific, legal web-company. Our agreement is real simple, but we have to take into account potential complications.
For instance, we have agreed on length and amount of alimony (state guidelines) - but what if something happens to H during that time? I want to discuss options with the L.
How do we solve health insurance? Taxes? All that kind of stuff. H believes he's a subject matter expert on everything and there's no need to talk to our CPA or a L about any of this. It's causing friction, anger and arguments.
6 days until I leave.
Hi painter,
I don't know if the similarities in our situations are due to the universal male/female struggle regarding communication or if our husbands are just made from the same mold..
My husband also said to me that he needed the separation to see if he missed me and son and if he could handle it? (As if it's all about them and no one else friggen matters in their universe)
Same anger involved with the whole legal system.
When you described how he does what is best for him without an ounce of self doubt I felt like you put into words a very accurate description of my husband as well. Truly uncanny. (I believe they are both engineers and only children. I wonder if there is something that contributes to that mind set) I actually copied what you wrote in your 3/31 post and put it in a book I use for notes with my coach! I do not have any background in psychology (except for some introductory classes ) and struggle to understand it.
my husband also does not talk about feelings. Funny that your husband was hyper sensitive to you criticizing him for affair. My husband hypersensitive when I criticized him for waking up consistently at 2 pm instead of helping with family. My husband makes it out like I am verbally abusive for this. I felt frusturated at his inability to compromise and validate and actually listen.
My husband also spewed and became very angry when I brought up reconciliation. I now stopped. If they want it they will let us know. And they have to be so upset that they are really willing to do anything or it simply won't ever work. Really we just have to accept what their actions are saying as much as we don't want to believe it or accept it.
Painter, I have been asking myself this a lot lately... Are they really worth it? Did living with him provide you with such a loving, peaceful existence? or were you often left feeling completely frusturated and invalidated by their inability to abide by rational emotional thought and consideration? i think some people are just not capable of it. In my case, sometimes I wonder if I am hanging on because it's a power struggle. Someone in my divorce care group (just joined) said that God does not want people to be so unhappy and that when spouse is cheating and leaves the marriage we should recognize it as a gift from God to get us out of that relationship.
When I read your situation I get mad at how husband vilifies you and plays victim. I realize my husband does the same. Sometimes I believe him.
Juju, I agree that what I'm fighting for is not a bed of roses. There's many, many likenesses between our H's, you're right. I talked to a man who is married to a woman with Aspergers and was struck by the similarities in behavior... H's children have both been diagnosed with 'spectrum' disorders, so not completely unlikely. But H would never accept that this could impact his relationships, so no point in going there.
One example of H's behavior that I find bizarre but consistent with a spectrum disorder: His D lived 45 minutes away and didn't have a car. She kept asking H to come have lunch with her on his days off. She was very close to H growing up, and missed him and was lonely and isolated where she lived. He refused, supposedly because he didn't like the area she lived in, which he told me in a disgusted tone whenever I encouraged him to go. This went on for over a year - he never budged. He's now upset that she doesn't stay in touch with him more, and he does not see the connection between his own lack of investment in their R and the lack of closeness between them today.
H and I have plenty of warm feelings for each other and mutual respect in principle - we just can't figure out how to handle conflicts or differences of opinion on an everyday basis. I think that can be learned, and I'm willing to put all of me into that process, but H believes it is what it is, we are who we are, and nothing can be changed. So - he's giving up where I am willing to continue working. I have to accept his choice.
I feel both sorry for him and worried about him. The choices he is making are not going to benefit him, I'm afraid.
But there's many things I will appreciate not having to live with once I'm on my own. I spent 4 months away a couple of years ago and felt more like myself than I had in years, and it was a great feeling. I was hoping I could remain that person when I came back, but it seems I have to fight so hard to be able to be myself in this M. It shouldn't be like that, I think.
There were many signs when I was away that pointed towards staying away... I didn't listen to them. It was like a road was being paved for me. In some ways, I feel like I'm getting direction that keeps pushing me towards a S/D. It's weird, I have never felt that guided before in my life, and it's contrary to what I actually want.
I don't know if I actually answered any of your questions or if I'm just rambling... This is where I'm at today, I just e-mailed my L the S agreement for review.
H came home early from work and we went and got a storage place for my things. I'll store the things I won't need until I get a new home. So I'm just taking what I need for the summer to my son's place. It's less stressful and cheaper that way, and everything will be packed so H can get a container and have it shipped when I need it. It also allows him to add things to the storage facility if he finds things after I leave.
He had several meltdowns over how his plans were disrupted this afternoon, though - he needed a new battery for his watch and that was priority #1 for him. When he was delayed due to me needing something from him, he got very, very mean and angry. Once he got the battery, he was nice and pleasant again. It was interesting to observe in one way.
Hi painter,
I don't know if the similarities in our situations are due to the universal male/female struggle regarding communication or if our husbands are just made from the same mold..
My husband also said to me that he needed the separation to see if he missed me and son and if he could handle it? (As if it's all about them and no one else friggen matters in their universe)
Same anger involved with the whole legal system.
When you described how he does what is best for him without an ounce of self doubt I felt like you put into words a very accurate description of my husband as well. Truly uncanny. (I believe they are both engineers and only children. I wonder if there is something that contributes to that mind set) I actually copied what you wrote in your 3/31 post and put it in a book I use for notes with my coach! I do not have any background in psychology (except for some introductory classes ) and struggle to understand it.
my husband also does not talk about feelings. Funny that your husband was hyper sensitive to you criticizing him for affair. My husband hypersensitive when I criticized him for waking up consistently at 2 pm instead of helping with family. My husband makes it out like I am verbally abusive for this. I felt frusturated at his inability to compromise and validate and actually listen.
My husband also spewed and became very angry when I brought up reconciliation. I now stopped. If they want it they will let us know. And they have to be so upset that they are really willing to do anything or it simply won't ever work. Really we just have to accept what their actions are saying as much as we don't want to believe it or accept it.
Painter, I have been asking myself this a lot lately... Are they really worth it? Did living with him provide you with such a loving, peaceful existence? or were you often left feeling completely frusturated and invalidated by their inability to abide by rational emotional thought and consideration? i think some people are just not capable of it. In my case, sometimes I wonder if I am hanging on because it's a power struggle. Someone in my divorce care group (just joined) said that God does not want people to be so unhappy and that when spouse is cheating and leaves the marriage we should recognize it as a gift from God to get us out of that relationship.
When I read your situation I get mad at how husband vilifies you and plays victim. I realize my husband does the same. Sometimes I believe him.
Hey Ju and Paint,
No doubt WAS's act poorly. One thing I've wondered about lately is why. Is it that they are immature and horrible people, and that is why they leave? Or is it because they are leaving that hey are immature and horrible people?
We on the DB forums are trying everything we can to become better people. Motivated to avoid the loss of our M, and to try to avoid going through this type of pain ever again. But really, that is motivated by our loss. Before our loss we weren't doing all of this. So are we so awesome for doing this, or is this just a reaction to the loss?
Likewise the WAS doesn't care. They are checked out. They have no motivation for personal growth. Of course they aren't meeting our efforts on personal growth or maturity. That's because they don't care as much as we do.
Does that make them bad people? Is this our chance to judge them as levels below our own evolution?
Then again, they walked. Period. I never would have. Period. So in that one single measure, I do say that they have acted on emotions I wouldn't have. I also separate myself from those that didn't DB and instead had rebound relationships, reacted emotionally, etc. So I have a few things to be proud of. And I personally DO believe that people that walk don't have the same code that I have.
But at the end of the day I think a lot of it is situational too. I think a lot of the things your men are doing are things I probably did pre-BD in one way shape or form. You're just seeing a Zues that is motivated in a different way than I was before, and you're looking at WAS's that might prefer you to lose interest in them versus clinging emotionally.
Not sure I have any conclusions here other than to be careful about making conclusions. Are they bad men? Probably not...other than the one part about leaving in which case, yeah, open season
Zues
When someone is checked out of a relationship does it make them capable of some pretty pathological actions? Or are those actions due to some type of dysfunction that perhaps we were in denial about and now intensified because they have no motivation to keep it in check?
Throughout my relationship I often wondered if husband was mildly on spectrum. Fits in with his career, mathematical abilities, weird socilization and communication skills, and inexplainable selfishness throughout our entire relationship. Now I started wondering if he is a covert narcissist because I cannot comprehend how else he can do some of things he has done. Not just leaving, and after leaving but many of his actions prior. (Might post on my thread so as not to hijack...but I am fully aware of how this can make me come across as someone looking to play the victim role)
I feel like the typical battle was husband did something I perceived as selfish (or perhaps not working or making decisions as a team unit) and I responded with frusturation and criticism. And we both became resentful.
I am well aware that husband would have good reason to site my negativity and anxiety as my dysfunction or diagnosis.
Husband and I bickered so much even before we were married. I often was frusturated with him and he was with me. I am told that we were night and day. On top of this we did not understand each other's needs and neither of us knew how to communicate. Sometimes I think that we married each other because we were good on paper and no real reason to break up.
I can honestly say that my motivation for personal growth is not to win husband back. It is because I realize how unhappy I have been and because I am realizing that some of the ways I have been brought up is not conducive to happiness and because I do not want my son to be anxious and filled with negativity. But yes, you are right. husband leaving has been the catalyst for me to self reflect and evaluate my contributions to the marital demise.
WAS has no motivation for self growth because they are in denial as to their role. They are unhappy, but they blame it on us and our marriage. That blame enabled them to check out.
I guess the indifference of someone wanting you to lose interest is hard to accept and extremely hurtful. Husbands neglect for past years has been horrible for me. By reviewing his faults and flaws and ways they have hurt us and ways that they were wrong makes it easier to let go.
Zues, do you think anyone can cheat? Do you think we all have it in us, or is there a trait or conviction that makes some do it and others not?
I read in one book that friends have a lot of influence - far more people cheat if their friends don't condemn their actions.
Juju, I can so relate to everything you say, and agree with your observations - and I have all the same questions and no real answers.
I know why resentment has built up in my H and there was really not all that much I could do about it: He never shared what he felt or wanted. I remember asking him so often through the years, 'What do you think? What would you like? How do you feel about that?' and all I'd get was 'I don't know' or 'I don't care' or 'Whatever you want.'
Turns out he had preferences but didn't voice them, and now he is very resentful because he feels I ran everything and always got my way.
On the rare occassions he did have an opinion, I was probably not as careful as I could have been because I believed we could have a discussion about it, negotiate or find a compromise. Every time he didn't get his way completely, he saw it as a personal loss.
I didn't realize how fragile he was emotionally, and that's something I need to be aware of - my assumption that everyone is as assertive as I am.
It's funny, because before we got married, I told him: 'If we ever end up having serious problems, I think it will be due to your lack of assertiveness.' Almost prophetic.
Add-on: I'm packing to leave on Saturday. 15 years dismantled just like that. I'm realizing the more I pack that this is all something I can create again, somewhere else. Nothing is permanent, my home is nothing more than a sand mandala and it's time to sweep it all away.
Painter, I was reading on another marriage website that anyone is capable of cheating and that it is often just a matter of opportunity.
I don't necessarily believe that, as I had opportunities to cheat in past and made sure to disengage very early. I have opportunities to do so now (and I don't even think it would technically be considered cheating since husband left ) but still have shut it down. Most of my friends and girls I go out with have cheated and it still never Influenced me. No one in my family has been up unfaithful though, so that might be why. Maybe it's more related to family? I really don't believe that everyone is capable of cheating. I would bet my life that one of my brothers would never ever cheat as well.
What you describe with your husbands lack of communication is similar to my experience as well. My husband now says he compromised his happiness throughout the entire relationship!
Zues, do you think anyone can cheat? Do you think we all have it in us, or is there a trait or conviction that makes some do it and others not?
You know, it's really interesting you bring this up. Personally? I've got a couple of friends that are
dogs. I think if I were to have wanted to cheat, I'd have heard nothing from them. There's no way I could ever have an affair, in fact at this moment I'd feel like I was cheating.
When I worked in SF, I had women express their interest on several occasions. Good looking, bright women. Never even considered it. In fact, I wasn't even flattered.
The WW? I know for a fact that 2 of her friends (well 3 actually), 1 an old high school chum and 2 mutual friends
not only didn't say anything, but were
enablers.
Her assistant? Protected her. Lied for her. Knew the whole time, and even lied to me when I
knew! Her parents? Her Dad, had he known would have freaked out. And, he chewed her out and could still be mad at her. But her Mother - is a very, very, very forgiving Christian. My WW could stab a baby to death, eat it, and my MIL would say that Jesus forgives. Seriously. There's nothing you could do that she would not say "oh well, if this has to happen...", even if she could do something to stop it. She wouldn't. Maybe that's a survival instinct, I don't know. But right now, there's certainly no condemnation.
So, I think that if a person is prone to cheating even a bit (my WW is, and has cheated on me in the past) you've almost got to assume that they somehow gravitate towards like-minded people. And they'll only associate with them as well.
I think if just ONE of her friends had said "WTF do you think you're doing?!?", I truly believe she'd have stopped. Instead, she had friends she talked into thinking I was bad, or always lean towards that sort of gossipy nay-saying sort of attitude anyway. We have (had) 2 friends that have a winery, and didn't tell me a thing about her being there with somebody else every Sunday. I know they were involved because of emails I read before I left. This sort of thing allowed her to get deeper and deeper in her belief/reality.
So yeah, I think one reason she's tried to keep her A as secret as possible is so nobody will confront her. She's still keeping it pretty hush hush in general. I'm sure that she's got plenty of friends with a moral compass. She just relied on the ones that didn't. In the end, that was enough to help push it forward. She's just waiting until the D is final, and then it will be public.
Painter, I think that most people don't even think they're cheating. They convince themselves that their M is over. That they are just trying to be supported while they muster that strength to leave the R. Something that is in everyone's best interest. And they need the support because their LBS is abusive and they need to stand up for themselves, they are the abuse victim that needs support to recover. That it's the LBS's fault because they are just trying to get their needs met that they deserve. That this person is the person they were meant to be with, because they feel the way they've always wanted to feel.
And our culture eats it up. Not many people stand up for it anymore because there is no longer a common value system, so everyone gives everyone else permission to do whatever because 'each to their own'. And if someone did stand up and speak out, well, that friend is disposable too, just make a few facebook posts and make some new friends and get some additional 'likes', that replaces the need for sharing life with the same people through it all.
Cheating has always been around. But I do think it will be more common. Not necessarily what we think of as cheating...one night stands, boss/secretary at hotels, etc. But this type of relationship hopping where the hopping starts before the relationship ends...yes, this is going to be very common. Already is.
Will everyone cheat. No, I don't think so. I never will. Just a fact. How am I so sure? Because there are ZERO women in my life. My mom. My daughters. But I don't have girl friends, I don't hang out in mixed gender settings. I only had room for one woman in my life, my XW. Now there is not room for any woman in my life. If that changes, it would max out at one again. That's how I roll. And I would never leave that woman, or cheat on that woman. So if I feel that way, I'm sure others like me do as well.
What do you think?
How do we solve health insurance? Taxes? All that kind of stuff. H believes he's a subject matter expert on everything and there's no need to talk to our CPA or a L about any of this. It's causing friction, anger and arguments.
6 days until I leave.
I couldn't agree more with your reasoning, Painter. Also, don't just rely on L. Ith regard to taxes, I would actually talk to tax account. I failed to do this and it is not looking good.
Painter, I was reading on another marriage website that anyone is capable of cheating and that it is often just a matter of opportunity.
I don't necessarily believe that, as I had opportunities to cheat in past and made sure to disengage very early. I have opportunities to do so now (and I don't even think it would technically be considered cheating since husband left ) but still have shut it down. Most of my friends and girls I go out with have cheated and it still never Influenced me. No one in my family has been up unfaithful though, so that might be why. Maybe it's more related to family? I really don't believe that everyone is capable of cheating. I would bet my life that one of my brothers would never ever cheat as well.
I agree with you, JuJu. What you wrote pretty much sums up me. While I did in the last couple of months start to have some crushes on 1-2 people from afar, I had decided I was not going to act on anything until I was D. It just did not feel right.
Best wishes for the move.
Thank you, Roiste!
Son and I are heading out for our 1000 mile drive this morning. I've been packing and sorting non-stop since Friday, H finally started helping when I told him I would need another week to get ready.
It is very, very strange to leave my house for the last time. I have no expectations (or wish?) to return.
I had a brief chat with H's closest friend who was here to help move the big stuff yesterday, and he said H had told him it was over with OW ages ago. H had never told him he was in contact with her again most of last year and thought about moving in together as late as December. He was shocked and said he wishes we could work it out.
H has been very angry and mean, but is nicer when son is around, so that made things easier the last day.
I am choosing to look at the home that I created as a sand mandala. If I can do it once, I can do it again, the ability is in me and not dependent on this place.
More posting to follow from the road...
I'm surprised by my own calm. I have dear friends praying for me and supporting me. My son is by my side like the rock he has always been in my life. My sweet dog is with me, showering me with affection and attention. I feel lucky, in the middle of everything.
Zues, I think you make a great point when you state that the WS doesn't consider it cheating. H kept repeating, 'I thought we were separated.' I asked him why he then thought he needed to keep it a secret, and lie to me?
I had a chance to have an A - a friend I talked to a lot after I discovered H's A. He is M and I also know his W. I ignored the advances, then cut off contact when it got to be too much. It's a shame, because I liked our friendship.