Dear JellyB
It is been some time since we have been on the same page and think it might be time that we talked about how to make this happen.
I know that there are things we want to achieve and have in your life that have yet to happen for you. I feel like you blame me for not letting those things happen.
I don’t want to feel blamed for this any longer.
I am willing to work with you to support you to achieve want you want, but you have to help me out here.
I actually don’t know how to help you. I feel like just when we are getting somewhere you stop right in tracks and sabotage everything we are trying to achieve. I don’t understand why you do this. I
It’s like you really don’t want you say you want. It frustrates me no end that you do this.
It’s like being truly happy and reaping the rewards of all your hard work and dedication is like a bitter pill or a hateful crime to you.
I feel so sad that you never allow yourself any goodness. I feel angry with you that you do this to us.
What do you want me to? What do you need from me? Because I am at complete loss as to how to help you have what you want.
When I look at you I see a beautiful woman, who has lived a good and honest life. I see someone who has been a good and faithful daughter and sister, a loyal and loving friend. A hard worker, dedicated to what you do. I know you to be a loving, kind and generous partner.
But what I also see is someone who doubts the gifts you have and the place you have in the world. I see you doubt and deny what you give to others and in turn doubt what they give you.
I see you long for acceptance both of yourself and others. I see you craving a partner who will accept and love you for all your brokenness, and when you find a partner that does, you hate them and disrespect them for loving something you feel is so broken. I see you choosing sadness and death over living life.
I know you don’t know what it means to live life, that it scares you beyond any measure. I am beginning to think that fear of dying is easier for you than fear of living your life with joy. I see you struggle with this. I wonder what this is, what is means to you. I know you look at the world and see people embracing life, not understand how they live it and love life.
But you know what Jellyb, it isn’t so scary to take the leap of faith on living life. It won’t break you, it won’t kill you. Likely it will hurt a bit at times. But likely it could feel good too. It could feel better than anything you ever imagined. Ah I hear you say, “But Jellyb, it’s so hard to do this all alone”. What you fail to realise JellyB is that everyone is doing this ride alone. No one dies doing this life alone. It won’t kill you, but you know what the way you are living life right now will do it.
It’s time Jellyb, it’s time to leave whatever is holding you back, to let it go. Leave it in the past. Leave it with the memories of all the people that hurt you and left you and didn’t love you and appreciate you.
There is a life out there with your name on it. Adventure’s to be had, good things to be seen and felt. I know it’s scary to let go, to step up and out.
Have faith JellyB, that I will see you through. I can’t guarantee that you won’t be hurt again, and I guarantee that we won’t fall over and stumble. I guarantee that there won’t be more darkness. But what I will guarantee is that I won’t leave you. I’ll be right here, and guarantee that it will be better. It will be much, much better.
I know I don’t say it often, ok at all, but I do love and cherish you. We will get there I promise.
Much love (((JellyB)))
Jellyb XXXX
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...220#Post2631220
I love the chit out of you for posting that!!
Beautifully expressed Jellyb, so moving and vulnerable. Please, please embrace the side of yourself that believes. The side that has faith. The side that is willing to simply put one foot in front of the other towards the direction of adventure and happiness.
There is SO much out there for you to enjoy Jellyb. So much beauty, so much love, so many people that are yearning for a role model such as yourself. Someone that felt the fear and did it anyway. Someone who had gotten knocked down but picked herself up and smiled at the world - despite the harsh realities of it.
I see nothing but glorious potential written in that post. Potential for the life you have desired all the way up to this moment. It's there, it's not far. You've done the work, it's so damn evident. Your heart is massive Jelly, its MASSIVE! It cares for everyone on this forum and creates poetry in your posts.
I too Jellyb, love and cherish you. You are there already.
PP
Jelly, I want to give you the world's biggest hug. I understand so much of what you're conveying. I'm going to agree with the part in which you say, "it's time".
It really is. I took a giant breath, said a prayer to strengthen my faith, and them took that giant leap into the unknown - partly because you were right there, telling me I could do it!
Living with melancholy (I love this more romantic term for depression!) really is like living with two versions of yourself: You've got the strong, capable woman you know you can be, and often are. Then you've got the frightened, insecure woman who is always whispering "you can't" in your ear.
You can. I know you absolutely can. You're going to have to fake it until you feel it. Reach out when you need someone to tell you you can do it. Some of us are damaged in a way that makes us doubt ourselves. But we have more empathy than a lot of people can even imagine having, because we feel everything so very deeply.
I personally find you to be one of the most beautiful, genuine, and loving women I've ever had the pleasure to know. It doesn't matter that I've not met you IRL. I "see" you in your beautiful, thoughtful posts. Jelly, I'm not the only one.
If you have to, while you're getting ready to take the leap, borrow strength from us - those who believe in you. Tap into our vision of you and use that to move forward. Just don't fall into listening to the whisper that will tell you you'll let us down. There's no way. No matter what, there is no way you'll let us down.
I know you will get there in time. Even if you don't, you will continue to be as lovely a person to me as ever. You can just be yourself, and you'll be admired.
You've got the most poetic, prose-like way with the written word I've ever seen. I could read anything you care to write for hours. It's hauntingly gorgeous, Jelly.
We'll stumble...but remember, that's not because we're broken. It's because we're human. My greatest insight has been from the realization that I'm not "broken" - I'm unique! Deep-feeling, thoughtful, kind, caring...all qualities I admire in others.
I've been so honest about who I am here - and have found nothing but love and acceptance in return. So much so, that I've learned to love and accept myself again, too. You're doing the same thing - and I can tell...you are fiercely loved by people here. You touch people. That is beautiful. As are you.
There's absolutely no way I can think to respond to that without diminishing what's going on. All I can say is you're cool. Thanks for sharing with us JB.
There's absolutely no way I can think to respond to that without diminishing what's going on. All I can say is you're cool. Thanks for sharing with us JB.
Please say what you think Zues. I put it out there because I need the help. I feel crazy for doing it but it needs to be done. (Blush so very embarrassed)
Hey jellyb, first stop putting yourself down every chance you get. You are not crazy or need training wheels or anything. Ive seen your writings and you are ao very close, but it seams like you just refuse to accept how awesome you are.
I will bet without ever seeing a single real life interaction that you refuse compliments, to the point of frustration on the giver????
Self esteem is so very hard to pull from the weeds, especially if it was never developed in the first place...this i know from experience
You are going to break that habbit. Next time you hear a compliment, try super hard to think of why the person could have said it, appreciate that it was genuine and was reflective of how that person actually sees you and then say thank you.
Try it and see what happens.
All I can say is, I wish we were friends IRL. You are AWESOME..
Agree with everyone else, its time. Time for you to love yourself in all of your awesomeness. No more putting yourself down or thinking your not good enough. No more thinking your not worthy of something or someone. Acknowledge to yourself how amazing you really are.
I wish I could hug you now.
Hey fogg, are you taking that note from your personal journal
Hilariously Pleased is a dedication to Zelda a former poster, whose spirit and intelligence I much admired.
When I first arrived here I was navel gazing about what happiness was and we joked back and forth. I told her about an Irish mental health nurse I once worked with who told me that he could never understand why everyone believes that we have an entitlement to happy, he advised the pursuit of made people crazy. Zelda told me about either her grandmother or an aunt who described happiness as being hilariously pleased. It has stuck with me since Zelda wrote it.
So I need a plan, a plan and goals to move towards being Hilariously pleased. I have no maps, I don't know any sign posts, I don't know what direction I am heading. So how do you do it. I assume that GAL is in there somewhere. I assume having a developed sense of gratitude is in there too. I have a sense of self love and worth are in there too. Boundaries. Maybe winning lotto. I don't know.
So if I think about it. I basically have a very good theoretical first year 101 knowledge in "The theory of being hilariously pleased". I've read the books and TED talks, spoken to others, attended workshops. So what is the practical application?
For some readers you will likely be thinking how does any of this relate to DBing. I can't really answer that to be honest. What I know is this 15 months ago, the person who I thought was the love of my life, said "nope, you ain't worth it". And while I feel better and stronger and wiser now, I'm not anywhere near where I want to be.
So any words of encouragement, words of wisdom, any challenges, any guidance, teaching, tricks of the trade, any questions that you need answered that will lend itself to me graduating from The theory of being Hilariously pleased to the practical application of it, would be sincerely and gratefully appreciated.
JellyBxxx
Hey jellyb, first stop putting yourself down every chance you get. You are not crazy or need training wheels or anything. Ive seen your writings and you are ao very close, but it seams like you just refuse to accept how awesome you are.
I will bet without ever seeing a single real life interaction that you refuse compliments, to the point of frustration on the giver????
Self esteem is so very hard to pull from the weeds, especially if it was never developed in the first place...this i know from experience
You are going to break that habbit. Next time you hear a compliment, try super hard to think of why the person could have said it, appreciate that it was genuine and was reflective of how that person actually sees you and then say thank you.
Try it and see what happens.
Zephyr thank you for the post. I appreciate your words and sentiment.
This may seem glib, but it is an honest question. How do I put myself down?
And I never turn a compliment down. I always say thank you. I am very aware of the gift of giving and would never deny someone's gift or appear unappreciative. I learned the lesson along time ago.
I am likely to hear the words of criticism ringing louder in my ears and heart, than allowing the kind words of good people to linger.
Thank you for taking the time to post.
Much love and light on your journey.
JellyBxxx
I love the chit out of you for posting that!!
Beautifully expressed Jellyb, so moving and vulnerable. Please, please embrace the side of yourself that believes. The side that has faith. The side that is willing to simply put one foot in front of the other towards the direction of adventure and happiness.
There is SO much out there for you to enjoy Jellyb. So much beauty, so much love, so many people that are yearning for a role model such as yourself. Someone that felt the fear and did it anyway. Someone who had gotten knocked down but picked herself up and smiled at the world - despite the harsh realities of it.
I see nothing but glorious potential written in that post. Potential for the life you have desired all the way up to this moment. It's there, it's not far. You've done the work, it's so damn evident. Your heart is massive Jelly, its MASSIVE! It cares for everyone on this forum and creates poetry in your posts.
I too Jellyb, love and cherish you. You are there already.
PP
Thank you for the championing PP. A girl like me doesn't know what to do when the most popular boy in school sends a smile her way.
It is interesting that you use the word potential. Both Mr Ex and Mr M, both used it. It's a harsh word. When they said it, it always broke my heart. I always felt like the runt in the litter when they said it. Please know that I am fully aware that it was not your intention in your comment. I feel I know your heart well enough to know your intent.
Mr M used to tell me I was a caterpillar in a cocoon and that he spent most or our relationship waiting for the butterfly. I think his intention was communicate his love and desire to see me be the best version of myself. All I heard was that I was green, fat caterpillar, lying dormant in a cocoon shell.
I don't mean to make light of your opinion of me or celebration of what you see in me. It is assuring to me that people see that I try hard, but I struggle. It's important to me that people see my honesty, integrity and desire to do and be better. If that is what you see then I am pleased.
Thank you PP, you have been a great friend and light in my life.
As always so much love for you.
JellyBxxx
Jelly, I want to give you the world's biggest hug. I understand so much of what you're conveying. I'm going to agree with the part in which you say, "it's time".
It really is. I took a giant breath, said a prayer to strengthen my faith, and them took that giant leap into the unknown - partly because you were right there, telling me I could do it!
Living with melancholy (I love this more romantic term for depression!) really is like living with two versions of yourself: You've got the strong, capable woman you know you can be, and often are. Then you've got the frightened, insecure woman who is always whispering "you can't" in your ear.
You can. I know you absolutely can. You're going to have to fake it until you feel it. Reach out when you need someone to tell you you can do it. Some of us are damaged in a way that makes us doubt ourselves. But we have more empathy than a lot of people can even imagine having, because we feel everything so very deeply.
I personally find you to be one of the most beautiful, genuine, and loving women I've ever had the pleasure to know. It doesn't matter that I've not met you IRL. I "see" you in your beautiful, thoughtful posts. Jelly, I'm not the only one.
If you have to, while you're getting ready to take the leap, borrow strength from us - those who believe in you. Tap into our vision of you and use that to move forward. Just don't fall into listening to the whisper that will tell you you'll let us down. There's no way. No matter what, there is no way you'll let us down.
I know you will get there in time. Even if you don't, you will continue to be as lovely a person to me as ever. You can just be yourself, and you'll be admired.
You've got the most poetic, prose-like way with the written word I've ever seen. I could read anything you care to write for hours. It's hauntingly gorgeous, Jelly.
We'll stumble...but remember, that's not because we're broken. It's because we're human. My greatest insight has been from the realization that I'm not "broken" - I'm unique! Deep-feeling, thoughtful, kind, caring...all qualities I admire in others.
I've been so honest about who I am here - and have found nothing but love and acceptance in return. So much so, that I've learned to love and accept myself again, too. You're doing the same thing - and I can tell...you are fiercely loved by people here. You touch people. That is beautiful. As are you.
Ancaire thank you so much for the empathetic and kind post. I know you get it. I know your struggles, but I also see so many of your strengths. Sometimes I see a mother hen in you rounding up her chicks, heads counted and everyone provided with a tap on the head, ensuring that they know they have been seen and heard by you. Other times you are soulful wise sage, whose years of knowing can cut to the quick of a person's situation. And then there is Ancaire who has a revolutionary spirit, whose courage won't let her back down from an unjust fight, you allow others to find their fight. And there is so much more.
I don't have your fortitude and resiliency Ancaire that allows you to overcome the lows like you do. You are a lighter spirit. More able to connect with people. You are ultimately a teller of stories. You listen, reinterpret and support people to become aware of what their own stories say about themselves. They feel heard and supported. I don't have the ability to connect like you do. I am far more clumsy and mechanical. Likely more scare of causing more pain to people already in pain.
I am rambling now. But just wanted to say that I appreciate you posting and supporting me.
JellyBxxx
Jelly - I'm almost speechless...almost. LOL
I understand what you're very ably conveying - but I disagree with your perception. You may not have the resilience I do, but resiliency can be learned and enhanced. I was the eldest child in my family, which was led by an alcoholic man who could never be counted on in any way that counts. That fact alone is responsible for much of my resilience. I was forced to become that way in order to take over a role a child shouldn’t have – my mother’s fill-in in whatever area of running the home and taking care of my siblings she most needed help. My mother was generous, loving, and kind; but sadly most of her attention was necessarily focused on my out-of-control father, keeping him from destroying our home or persons with his frequent rages, depressed spewing, or sometimes even out of control happiness. Living with him was like making a home in a tornado…always unsettled and anything but calm.
Which are you in your family’s birth order?
I adore your ability to peek into posts and develop a near-perfect perception of a person’s true self. What a rare gift you have! You've developed me really well. I am flattered and shocked at how accurately you've picked up on different aspects of my personality, and you've crafted that into a depiction with words so beautifully, that I would want to be me, if I weren't already!
Clumsy? Mechanical? LOL Not even close, Jelly. This is where your perception is off. I sense a bit of shyness, a hint of fear of being rejected and hurt - but nowhere near being unable to connect. You connect brilliantly. You have a pure heart which absolutely shines through your posts like nothing I have ever seen. Ever. You touch people in a very sincere way, which is so unexpected as to be gift-like – words from Jelly are to be treasured, read over and over again.
You are: Engaging. Soulful. Endearing. Captivating. Charming. Sweet. Generous. You paint highly detailed pictures with words alone. You see past the surface into the depths. That might frighten some. There are lots of people in the world who are hiding in plain sight. I could read anything you care to share for hours! You have insight that I don’t believe I’ve ever encountered.
Even though we both suffer from the same mental disorder, you fit the term I love to use, melancholy, beautifully. I love that term for you – I think it’s romantic and deep -a sweet, sweet sadness. I view you as a woman of mystery and depth, being blessed with a secret knowledge straight from the universe. You’re more like me than you realize – we fit in the same cup! I’m froth to your espresso. We both care deeply about people. We both enjoy meeting and talking with people. We enjoy learning about them, observing, finding the hidden treasures that make them unique. I’m deep. You are deeper and deepest. I mean that as a compliment, truly.
We moved over and over and over when I was growing up. My father was always chasing rainbows and my mother was dutiful and obedient. As a result, I was forced to become even more friendly than I would have been otherwise. It’s hard being the “new kid” all the time – so I learned how to make a connection with strangers quickly as somewhat of a guard against pain. So, yes, I learned how to quickly make connections; it was key to my survival! My siblings did, as well. We’re a friendly, effusive bunch!
My mother is shy. My father was very outgoing – but his childhood was remarkably similar to mine. I’m happy to say that a lot of traits passed down through my dad’s side of the family have ended with this generation – not that we don’t carry the scars – we just didn’t continue the dysfunction to the extent earlier generations seemed okay to live with. It needed to end.
I love to write, but haven’t done it in years. Your magical way with words has actually inspired me to take up writing again. I’ve started a short story, with you as the star! I need to finish it and post it so you can see it. It’s just for fun, but I think you would enjoy it.
I’m sorry you seem to be going through a rough time right now. I’m sure I’ll be there again one day – I’m just hoping it’s not soon. I’ve learned so much since I started this journey of self-discovery that I’m hoping to one day be completely in control…I don’t know if it’ll happen or not, but it’s my goal. I’d settle for being 80% in control! Wouldn’t that be a dream?
I’m grateful for you, Jelly. I’m not the only one. You’re making progress. I can see the difference in you from your old threads to now. It’s remarkable, really. Don’t be too hard on yourself. You don’t deserve that.
iAncaire,
Again gorgeous and generous post to me.
I am the middle child in a family of three girls. My father was a refugee from Hungary. When he arrived here he could not speak english. He was 12 years older than my mother. He had that eastern european charm and an accent to match. My mother ran away from her own homeland to avoid a father who married his other woman, shortly after her own mother's death. I think my mother was addressing her daddy issues with him. He was a compulsive gambler and workaholic. My mother too is a loving generous and kind, spend most of her time, making up for the loss of income my father spent on gambling. She was also the buffer to my father's controlling and traditional expectations of women's place and role in the home. Equally children were seen and not heard, unless of course you were my father's favourite, which was my younger sister. My older sister had my father's expectations placed firmly on her shoulders. Perfection at all costs. For her his love was completely conditional on her success. This is her legacy from him. I was not worth my father's attention at all. I was invisible except for when i wasn't. And when I wasn't it was consistent criticism. So I was a very good, good, good girl. Did I mention I was a very good girl.
He passed away in 2005. I had not seen him since I was 15 years old. My choice. The two years before he died, after having three serious strokes in a row, he asked to see both of my sisters and not me. Guess who took the call from the hospital social worker to hear this proclamation. Me. They called my mother first and my mother gave them my number because " I was the one likely able to manage it the best". Funny. I was 28 then and it still hurt. Now not at all.
So what did I learn from my father. I am expert at not being seen, remaining under the radar. Apologetic for taking up too much space or time of anyone. When I receive attention it feels uncomfortable and undeserved.
As for being deep Ancaire. Yes I would agree there is no superficiality about me. I share Zues' intensity and yes I scare people away. I'm exhausting to be around for too long because other people cannot sustain the level of emotional intensity I have. I find too that those I would enjoy spending time around, extroverts, people who naturally know how to be lighter and who have more fun in life, are exhausted by me. This is why connection with people is not my thing.
I naturally have quiet a reflective outlook, coupled with fortnightly episodes of deep sadness. I'm not fun to be with and people feel that I wallow. I see the word used here, never with me, but posters towards other posters when they are frustrated by another's immovability or insight issues (slow to see the role they play in their own demise because of blocks). It breaks my heart.
I don't wallow anymore, maybe in the past. But not right now. I know my pattern with sweet sadness now. She arrives the the beginning of the two weeks before my period and she stays for 10-14 days. For that time, my life becomes not my own. She is like the young adult that moved out, but whenever she comes back home, she uses the laundry, uses all the powder, basks on the couch ordering pizza watching tv, asks for money, leaves towels on the floor in the bathroom, Basically creating complete chaos and then leaves just as fast, with a bomb site behind her, saying thanks very much, see you next time. Reeking havoc like a tasmanian devil. And then I spend the next two weeks finding my peace and calm.
I am not surprised I can find no forward momentum in my life. There is no time to do so. I spend two weeks trying to haul my ar*e back from the brink. To understand why for two weeks out of every month I could throw a bottle of pills down my throat, or some alternatively silly gesture. This time for first time, I thought about cutting myself to release some of the pain. This is new and a bit scary. I think it is in response to knowing that I can rationally manage the irrational thoughts about dying. I know they aren't real and treat them as such. This time last year I believed everything they told me.
I know what the pattern is now. I have it handled on it most of the time. I'm quite practiced. I don't talk to anyone about it, because it worries people and also people are very judgmental. It would change my friends view of me and I don't that. My family don't know, my mum knows I get PMS, but not the extent and only one friend knows about the demons in my head.
So I guess there it is. That's all the broken bits for everyone to see. Lol.
You are good to me Ancaire. Thank you. I would love to read your story.
JellyBxxx
Every one is a collection of broken bits. Someone drop us and glued us back together. It's our humanity, but I think my handle is upside down and certainly the spout points inwards I know because the self spew pours that way.
There is good news about PMT, it stops at the menopause, thank goodness for that!
Oestrogen dominance isn't fun at all, but that's what it was for me, the hormones. Little buggers. I use a progesterone cream and I have to rub it on the skin that helped. Oh and lots of vitamin b6. Took several months to have an effect, when it did it really helped.
Oestrogen dominance helps you look better and gives fuller lips for longer. Keeps the naughty rude bits (front bottoms) in good working order. It goes with purple and a red hat.
Can't knock it in the long run though.
V
So I need some help with setting some goals I can actually achieve. I think I will just throw some stuff out there and see if anyone can help.
My weight:
* So back in therapy - next appointment is 29th of Jan. Had one session before Christmas to set the scene of what I wanted to achieve around, my body image and self worth related to it. It's connection to my fear of intimacy (emotional more so than sexual) with men. A tool maybe I used for self flagellation. Why do I keep this weight. Has it served is purpose and beyond it's use by date.
* Appointment booked with a Naturopath on 18th of Feb, for full testing for physiological barriers to no weight loss and the hormone relationship to the depression. This is expensive and tipping into plastic surgery savings. But feels like it needs to be done.
* Paleo - I stopped eating Paelo from about the 31st through to the 5th. PMS symptom, emotional eating from feeling lonely and socialising - drinking wine which is something I never do. I have spent from the 6th of Jan to now going through the carb blues and period. No wonder I feel so crazy.
* Exercise - I signed back up to the gym on Sunday. Habitate for Fitness. It's got a functional fitness focus. I have access to a kettlebell, TRX (which I love) and spin class, also Yoga - which would be new for me. I met with a new trainer on Tuesday and we went through my weightloss/excercise/food saga. I hour meeting. Not the usual. So we agreed that weightloss would not be the priority. I told him a wanted to get really strong for my plastic surgery. He has interest in Olympic weightlifting. I told I like heavy over lots of reps. So it might be a good match. We will see.
Plastic Surgery:
* I sent away for a full quote this week on the cost of just the surgery. OMG $15000NZ more than I had budgeted for. But I will suck this up.
* Surgery date needs to move from April/May to the end of June as my work secondment has been extended. I am a little disappointed about this as I want the surgery sooner rather than later. But I guess this gives me time to get healthier mentally and physically.
Work:
* As I said my secondment has been extended. I love the idea and the vision of the project I am working, however the day to day tasks involved, leave me unfulfilled. I am doing a lot of researching of children's child protection histories with the state and using his information with the child's current presentation with a recommendation to what interventions and support are needed in the here and now to address long standing complex needs the child is presenting with. The work facinates me. But it's not the part of social work I love.
* So I am considering a change of career direction. I think I want to move into psychotherapy/hypotherapy. Something face to face, maybe setting up private practice in the future as a move into my 50-60's. I have looked at some study options. Really exspensive. And likely not going to fit into a financial plan for a couple of years.
Social life:
* I have felt very lonely over the Christmas/New Year period. All of my close friends went out of Auckland for this period. So I spent a large proportion of it on my own.
*I guess to make up for this I spent some time with a very lovely man, who I think I could fall very much in love with. I don't think he feels the same. I am more attached than he is. I don't like feeling the unrequitness of it all.
* So to overcome these feelings I have dated up a storm since Christmas. I am not sure if this has been a good decision. I went into with an attitude of discovering male friendships, but the male/female dynamic is confusing for this girl. I really don't speak male at all.
* I have wonder who I can extend my social cirle without dating. I think I find dating so much easier that making friends, because of the one on one nature of the interaction. Where has meeting people in social settings, brings out my social anxiety. I freeze at the thought of walking into any meetup situation. I find the idea compeltely pertrying. Now that I am writing this I know exactly why I feel my life is stalling. This social anxiety and phobia is stopping me from walking out of my house to enjoy activities with other people. Ok so now we know.
GAL:
I don't -Hmmmmmm
What kind of help would you like?
V
What kind of help would you like?
V
V,
Ancaire said something in her post, about the whisper of depression telling me "I can't". It rang very true.
Eery time I think about things I am interested in, cycling, music or art or anything for that matter, and I think about maybe taking a night class or joining a group. I make all of the enquiries for when and where and how. And then I stop. I can't take the next step.
All I hear in my mind are "you can't". I feel so stuck that I can't widen my life to new experiences because I so scared.
How do other people do this. How do you go to your dancing? How do you take on something knew and be ok with doing it infront of other people. Talking to people you have no connection with.
Sometimes I wonder how I get myself out the door in the morning. Lol
JellyBxxx
OK, JellyB
This is the way I see it a little reframe
This is what I tell myself:
Think about a baby starting to walk, it falls over, shuffles on its bottom, grabs hold of the sofa, staggers, cries, falls over. We don't say, my goodness stop that baby from walking it's no good at it?
So it is with anything new we are like that baby we are going to fall over, be imperfect, and so what?
Mainly it's with strangers we don't have to see them again.
If we say to others who seem to know- I have never done this before and I am willing to learn then all of those I would value say, you are doing well, can I help, shall I demonstrate how to....
Most people are more concerned about what you think of them than what they think of you
It's a little like jumping into a cold swimming pool, just jump in without thinking about it. No chance to change your mind so don't give yourself space and time to change your mind, if there is a risk you will. I did a parachute jump for charity and a bungee jump for a dare. I went climbing a wall with a friend, made a commitment and couldn't back out. Take a deep breath and jump in, the water is warm once you are in.
Go girl
I don't have to do it again if I don't want to
Is there a trial session before I commit to it?
Are you new to this too?
I remember when I learned to do something new like Tango, I booked a workshop and mixed with the newbies, isn't funny that in lessons people are there to learn and improve. That's why they are called lessons.
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Let's examine something we both know this board. I lurked for nearly 5 months before I plunged in. Then my posting was dire, after a while it improved quite a lot. So how do you post to someone new here? The answer I suspect is that you are interested in them, you care, because of that you aren't worried about what they think of you because you think of them. The real world is the same. I am minded of the guru on the road, a traveller meets the guru and says " I am on my way to the next village, what are the people like there?" The guru says "what were they like in the last village?" The traveller says "they were kind and welcoming" the guru says "you will find the people in the next village the same". The next traveller arrives with the same question about the people in the next village, the guru replies in the same way "what were like in the last village?" The traveller says "unwelcoming, and very rude". The guru replies "that is how they will be in the next village"
I am sure there are many who are similar with similar thoughts as you and many of them are there. You only need one sympathetic soul and you have a plan.
At the end of the day everything we do has a skill set along a bell shaped curve, on somethings i am awesome with others blah and that can change. I was so poor at jive when I started I love music and after a couple of dozen sessions really good.
On the other hand I sing in the shower very badly, something equivalent to a cat wailing, I get dragged to karaoke, I pick a song that requires little singing and everyone sings a song with me. I mime.
At the end of the day act as if and keep on smiling. You don't have to like it just do it.
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OK so you want to go spinning?
Turn up at the gym dressed ready to get on that bike, pay then immediately to the studio.
Start on a bike at the back left hand side. That means early arrival to claim your bike. Have a towel and a water bottle. When the trainer says anyone new, raise your hand (excusing yourself as a first timer). It's your first time go at your own pace. Ask someone smiley near to you to check your bike is set up ok. Wear plain black leggings and T-shirt (no attention) smile, smile, smile. Enjoy the music, then at the end of the session, say to yourself "way to go Jellyb." Second time is easier.
Here is how not to do it, bike at the front, wear purple and a red hat, frown, hate the music and ignore the instructor whilst having your seat too high wearing high heels, die of thirst and leave in the middle to go for a P.
No one cares at all how you look, your health is more important than any temporary embarrassment. You don't have to like the medicine, just take it.
When you go spinning (and you will) there is a generous rainbow strength coming your way, as you can do it. Remember the first time is the worst, it's all up hill after that.
Spinning is an amazing workout, you can go at your own pace, it's low stress on a bike, jiggle bits don't jiggle, you don't have to jump on the spot, it's easy on the knees. There is great lively music. And best of all everyone is working out and ignoring you. You can do it with minimal fitness and work up to high gears and high speed. Sometimes the studios are in the dark with a back track projected onto a screen.
You got this. I think you can now see yourself spinning, it's called rehearsal, visioning or imagination.
V
My dear Jelly, as I read your post about your relationship with your father I was brought back to mine. It was a hard time. The yelling, the fear, the inability to understand why he was behaving this way. Revealing your childhood experiences in the manner you did dropped my defenses and allowed so many of my memories to flood my conscious. I absolutely love the way you write. I have pushed these feelings down for so long. I have forgotten how bad I felt. I feel sad now. This sadness has nothing to do with my wife. This is about a petulant man child who verbally abused his family to get his way.
I wanted to post here to say hi and see how your doing. I ended up talking about myself. After reading that post I think we both had some difficult childhood father experiences. It is weird, you describing yours floods me with mine. I like having this connection to you.
Hi Jellyb
On NPR maybe a year ago, there was this little clip about a man who was afraid of rejection and then intentionally went out and made himself get rejected everyday.. They said it became popular (almost like the Harlem Shake) and people were doing wacky stuff just to get rejected. I think a club was even started I am trying to find out who this guy was. Maybe someone else knows.
For me, the desire to do what I want to do supercedes any social fear. I never thought about this much until I read your post. I am told by close friend that I am oblivious to other people though. I also grew up in an area where anything goes. there are so many people you can basically do anything and you probably won't stand out that much. I agree with vanilla, most people are too concerned about themselves to even notice you.
Start putting yourself first. You have to be your own advocate and if you want to do something badly enough just take the plunge and make sure you do it.
what exactly are you afraid of?
Spinning is a ton of fun and hard work. I loved it. I would love to start going again. I agree with everything V said but would like to add prepare to be sore in places you did not know could be sore and have fun
Oh Mu,
You are such a sweet, soulful, gentle man and I am so very sorry that you have experienced similar pain to my own. Let the defences drop when you can and feel it and let it go. Hanging onto to it serves you no purposes, but the letting go will bring huge reward.
Mu it took me some time to understand the man my father was. Out of my sisters I actually have the best understanding and relationship with him (that must sound odd given he is dead, but nonetheless true). I did the work.
I have been reading Melodie Beatties book The New Co-dependency and she has a chapter in there called A New Legacy from Our Family of Origin. It makes for interesting reading. She says "each of ancestors plays an important part in shaping who we are ...if we can't honour our ancestors, we can't love ourselves".
I actually know very little about him. But I do know my father was physically and emotionally abused as a child. He was the second son in a family of five children. An older brother and then sisters. As the second son he had no status, but had status over his female siblings. He was by all accounts his father's whipping boy. And I mean literally. He was the chosen child to be scapegoated.
He grew up in wartorn country and somehow through some internal drive and resilence made is way out of Hungary. My mother tells a story of my father escaping across a policed boarder with friends a couple who had a child. There was some incident where as they were moving across the boarder, where the couple and child were separated and in the chaos my father saved the child and brought her across the boarder reuniting her with her family.
My father spoke no english when he arrived her in 1956. So I guess the fact that my father moved to a new country without family, without speaking english shows that there was something quite determined about him.
My mother says that he was an amazing father prior to the time we could speak english better than we could. It seemed to phase him that we could potentially out smart him by the fact that we had a better command of the english language.
My father had the most spectacular handwriting, it was curved and italic like. It reminds me of caligraphy and when I think about him writing in his second language. I find something strangly beautiful and romantic when I think about this.
My father had a complete love of food and wine. He was a wine waiter when he met my mother, who was a waitress. He could have been a sommelier, but his gambling got in the way.
My father eventually became a foreman for the biggest brewery in NZ. So this required him to manual labor, likely quite hard for my father as man who saw himself lifting himself and his family out of the poverty and peasent lifestyle of his childhood. But what I remember, every morning, my father would at 5.30am and he would shave and he would put on an ironed white shirt, trousers of business suit and a tie and would put his blue work overalls on top. My father would brylcreem his hair and would file his nails. He has the softest hands of male I have ever known.
Why am I telling you this? I guess because my father at the end of the day was a man of human fraility. He was a childhood abuse survivior, a refugee, a hard worker, and man with beautiful penmanship and a lover of good wine and food. He also happened to be a compulsive gambler and emotionally abusive and unavilable husband and father. Seeing the man in his totality is important.
I am now the age my father was when my father was in his most addicted period of his gambling. I look at my own life and my struggle with all of my demons and dragons, and I think, likely my father was trying to slay his own, the best way he knew how.
I forgave my father a long time ago for being who he was and what he did.
Now I just have to forgive myself. Mu neither of are our father's. We know better and have done better.
Sorry for the very long winded reply.
I have always felt you Mu. really I have.
Much love JellybXXX
Hi Jellyb
On NPR maybe a year ago, there was this little clip about a man who was afraid of rejection and then intentionally went out and made himself get rejected everyday.. They said it became popular (almost like the Harlem Shake) and people were doing wacky stuff just to get rejected. I think a club was even started I am trying to find out who this guy was. Maybe someone else knows.
For me, the desire to do what I want to do supercedes any social fear. I never thought about this much until I read your post. I am told by close friend that I am oblivious to other people though. I also grew up in an area where anything goes. there are so many people you can basically do anything and you probably won't stand out that much. I agree with vanilla, most people are too concerned about themselves to even notice you.
Start putting yourself first. You have to be your own advocate and if you want to do something badly enough just take the plunge and make sure you do it.
what exactly are you afraid of?
When I first starting dating when I was 29/30 years old, I went into telling myself that every date was likely going to be a rejection and I was going to use every date as practice for the next one. It became a social experiment of sorts. Now I have absolutely no fear of spending 45-60 mins on a coffee date with someone I have chatted to online.
See I really struggle with the cold engagement. The not having any background on someone or them on me, makes me feel completely under prepared and anxious.
I guess if I am completely honest, and this is going to sound so high school. I think they are going to judge me on how I look and then not want to talk to me, because they don't think I'm worthy of being there. Completely stupid and irrational I know but also the complete truth.
Spinning is a ton of fun and hard work. I loved it. I would love to start going again. I agree with everything V said but would like to add prepare to be sore in places you did not know could be sore and have fun
V and tfish,
I know I can go to spin, I used to go to spin class 3 times per week about 4 years ago. The anxiety doesn't change, I just push through it. I am just especially anxious about it at the moment because I have no fitness at all and being in a room of thin fit people, freaks me out.
I guess what I am figuring out, is that the anxiety is alot of negative self talk that I just have to push through. I guess I was hoping that after all these years I wouldnt have the anxiety and I could just rely on self confidance and not give it a second thought.
It seems to me it is relying on the old strategy of faking it till you make it. To learn not to care what other people think. Get my head out of everyone else's business and get into my own.
Lol OMG deep breaths
Hi jelly,
The guys name was Jason comely. You can google him. Its actually an endearing story. His wife had left him and he rose above it. The "dares" look fun. I would do them with you
One of them is to challenge a stranger to "rock, scissors, paper"... I think I would have to be in my 20s to do that one though!
a lot of people worry about being judged for something they know is superficial...the car they drive, their job, their house etc. it's part of being human. I am so embarassed about living with my parents and about their chaotic home (actually perfect for 5 year olds) , I don't want the kids to have play dates come over. So while it was easy for me to say just do it, I get that it's not so simple.
Although, admittedly I am not in a big rush to have to host 5 year old play dates
My favorite spin class was with male instructor who played and sang to meat loaf the entire time. His physique was similar to meat loafs as well. It was the best exercise class i ever took.
Let's learn to embrace what's not cookie cutter!
One more thought, who are some famous women or characters that you would want as a friend?
Spinning is a ton of fun and hard work. I loved it. I would love to start going again. I agree with everything V said but would like to add prepare to be sore in places you did not know could be sore and have fun
V and tfish,
I know I can go to spin, I used to go to spin class 3 times per week about 4 years ago. The anxiety doesn't change, I just push through it. I am just especially anxious about it at the moment because I have no fitness at all and being in a room of thin fit people, freaks me out.
I guess what I am figuring out, is that the anxiety is alot of negative self talk that I just have to push through. I guess I was hoping that after all these years I wouldnt have the anxiety and I could just rely on self confidance and not give it a second thought.
It seems to me it is relying on the old strategy of faking it till you make it. To learn not to care what other people think. Get my head out of everyone else's business and get into my own.
Lol OMG deep breaths
Yes, plus at this time of year there are many unfit people in spin classes.
If an old Broad like V can do this, a whipper snapper like Jellyb can
Who cares how you get there?
V
I used to care what other people think. I became wooden and provide very little to the conversation. I would freeze up and not be able to talk to girls, I still do with ones I am attracted to. I think the it is the visual. I don't struggle with phone calls or typing messages here. When I see them, I struggle. This is much better now then when I was younger. I have grown tired of it and really don't care or worry about it as much anymore. I am all right with them thinking I'm this or that because of what I say. I still struggle with women I'm attracted to. I guess I still care what they think.
(((Jelly))) pop over to my thread! I have a dastardly scheme on how we can accept a silly compliment... I will try it if you try it.
Transfer Compliment (gulp)
Jelly - I am ready to move to NZ! I'll go to spinning class with you. We'll have a great time. I will get to run away, and towards something better - and you'll get a companion at spin class.
What do you think?
Hold the phones, isnt NZ where they made Lord of the Rings, or am I making that up? If so you HAVE to let me come too!
Come on down lovely ladies and gorgeous Mu, the weather is good right now and hospitality is mighty good! Let me know when you arrive. Yip Hobbiton is here baby!!! About an hour and half from where I live. Come down to middle earth. Well that's actually in the South Island of NZ, but I wouldn't miss taking you all there. Much love JellyBxxx
Sounds like you are faking it well or you are having a good day?
Its a bloody good day here in little old NZ. The sun is shining 7.30am Saturday morning here, and I'm excited and feeling very cared for. JellyBXXX
You ARE cared for - and I was seriously on New Zealand's website learning what I needed to do to move there! LOL
Its become a lot harder to migrate to NZ in recent years. Its the same thing as lots of countries, if you have the money , it gets a whole lot easier. Its a tiny little country Ancaire. I reckon you would get to know everyone in no time. LOL You know that book/movie six degrees of separation. Well NZ it's about 3 degrees, from end of the country to the other.
Could we go watch an AllBlacks (rugby) match? I'm on my way!
Have a wonderful weekend!
So DadsCB - I'll call you Dads - like it like,
You are either a European who knows rugby and the All Blacks or a converted American who found the joys of rugby on ESPN, or you are an Aussie, who knows what the All Blacks are capable of. And Yes if you come down this way, then an All Blacks game is on the itinerary.
so we have:
1. All Blacks game
2. Hobbiton
3. Middle Earth
Where else would people like to go on this scenic tour of NZ?
You enjoy, your weekend too.
PS: I read you sitch yesterday. You have amazing self composure. I think you are heading in the right direction.
I know nothing about NZ but I am adding a trip to visit JellyB to my bucket list.
Jelly, I have never been to a rugby match, but love American football, so I'm in. And middle earth sounds fun. I like the elf women, they are cute and scary tough. Sounds like a good trip to me.
Hope all is well in jellyville
Ok all ...Google Waiheke Island vineyards. We can take the Ferry from Auckland waterfront to the island and spend the day drinking wine and maybe visiting one of the local beaches , or alternatively those with the millionaire lifestyle can helicopter over. Personally I prefer the 40 mins ferry ride. The harbor is beautiful.
dday - Amercian Football isn't that big here but it does have a cult following for those that do. I know there have been some kiwi's (New Zealanders) play for various teams over there. I personally don't understand American Football, but I hear that Amercian's feel the same about understanding Rugby. lol
You know, The Rock, spent some of his child-young adulthood growing up here in Auckland. I work with one of his cousins.
I will put this on the Itinerary so every one knows.
1.All Blacks Game
2. Hobbiton
3. Middle Earth
4. Waiheke Island wine tour
5. Elvish women for dday - hmmmm I need to research this one.
Anymore suggestions for the itinerary? What else do you lovely people know about my awesome country?
Where is that edit button..... Mu...there is a garden sculpture tour you can take too, one on the island and another i think up near the Kaipara. I will do some investigation.
Sounds great! What else could anyone ask for, awesome sights with some awesome people.
I once had a gnome called Git that went travelling.
He ended up in NZ at one stage. He had a passport it got stamped as gnome travelled all over the place.
He was on the TV too. Official WAG, walk away gnome.
V
Ah Lady V. We get a few Gnomes down this way. I tried googling to see if I find Git , with regard to the TV reference. But there are a number of travelling Gnomes who have some to NZ. I also found that NZ has a propensity to Gnome obsession too. Who knew! If Git would like another stay in the Land of the Long White Cloud - Aotearoa New Zealand. I would be happy to provide a place to stay. Accompanied or Unaccompanied Gnome. I wonder what the regulations are on Gnome travel.
So have been trying to work something out and seem to be going around in circles about it.
So we know I have been the poster child for co-dependency in my previous relationships with Mr M and Mr Ex. And I feeling pretty confident at the moment that I have a handle on the places where I get myself into trouble.
But I keep coming back to individuation. The ability to be together but separate. I liken it my head something to detachment, but a kinder more loving version.
I know that I have been guilty of getting all of my happiness, self worth,self- love and fulfillment from the men in my life. I feel much happy on my own as in being single. My level of self worth and self love goes up in this time to, only marginally I must say.
I am very confused about this. How much space do people give each other in relationships? What happens when one person needs more than another. Does there have to be a perfect match on the need for space and freedom for it to be a contented, loving relationship or can this be worked through when there is a miss match, Or are you better at finding someone who needs and wants the same level of space, freedom and intimacy.
All this questions have come up as I have realised that the only place in the world where I actually feel loved in when I am with a man who I believes loves me.
Can someone provide some clarity please. Sorry if all of the above is clear as mud.
Thanks in advance JellyBxxx
Cant say I have the answer because I've only had 1 relationship and I neglected it sometimes, smothered it others and then did both during some time also.
I don't think you would need to have a perfect match of how much space a persons needs. I think its more both people would be comfortable in their own skins and love their selves enough to give the other person whatever they wanted during that time. Each would enjoy the time together and the time apart. So if my S wanted to go out with their friends for the night I wouldn't take it as personal like she didn't want to be with me. Again, not sure how that fills in when someone has emotional needs being unmet. Maybe the trick is that most of our emotional needs needs to come from ourselves and the partner provides the extra that tops us off instead of filling us completely up.
Jelly
I can give you my (a mans) perspective. For me, the best balance of having space and being together is always changing. Some days you may want to lie in bed together for as long as possible and other days you may want to jump up and take the world head on. Most married men I know seem like they can't get far enough away from their wives for as long as possible. And most married women I know seem like they always want their husbands around.
I think it is inherent in men to want to have their own life outside of marriage for the most part. I don't really see it as much in women. (Until of course they run WW on you) . Of course this is skewed logic from a manly mans perspective, I'm just telling you what I have seen. For me and my marriage, W and I worked together for a long time and that is when she says she was most happy with me. I sometimes felt like we were together all the time and needed a break from each other. As you bring kids into the picture other things change. The focus is all on them and the husband can get away more. Not that that is a good thing either.
I don't think there is any such thing as a perfect match so you can dismiss that notion out of hand. That is why it's called a relationship, you must relate to the other and work together to find what works best for both. Good discussion.
I will put this on the Itinerary so every one knows.
1.All Blacks Game
2. Hobbiton
3. Middle Earth
4. Waiheke Island wine tour
5. Elvish women for dday - hmmmm I need to research this one.
Anymore suggestions for the itinerary? What else do you lovely people know about my awesome country?
Mt Tongariro National Park
90 mile Beach
Frank Josef Glacier
Milford Sound...I've been to them all and more....3 weeks in NZ 8 years ago
Mt Tongariro National Park
90 mile Beach
Frank Josef Glacier
Milford Sound...I've been to them all and more....3 weeks in NZ 8 years ago
Going on the list Is , definitely! Did you enjoy your time here? What were your impressions.
Hi JB
One of the best holidays of my life (and W).
Flew to Christchurch, hired a camper van and spent about 2 weeks touring South Island and half a week in the North. Then stayed with friends in Auckland . I remember having dinner in the Sky Tower revolving restaurant...another highlight.
W was pregnant ( 2 months) with first son so it was 12 years ago not 8! We didn't get as much tramping done as we would have liked because she was pregnant.
Sigh ......
Thank you for the responses Fogg and @2lt2lt
I do wonder about this, as I am not sure if I have been with two fairly typical men, who have enjoyed their activities and life , but also enjoy time in the man cave and had likely good emotional skills and intelligence. Or if I am actually attracted to love avoidants/anorexics/emotionally unavailable men.
I don't want to put myself through that again. I know the answer is likely that the love addict (ME) is attracted to these types of men. So a plan working on meeting my own emotional needs and addressing the addict behaviours in myself is likely to address the concern.
Hmmmm. How do I recognise a healthy individual who would make a good partner for me?
I can't believe I'm typing this. You all will probably think someone hacked my password. But here goes:
I don't think it's black and white.
There isn't healthy or unhealthy, independent or co-dependent, personality or personality disorder. They are all on a spectrum.
For me, I have given up on the idea of perfecting myself. The idea of working on all of my personality flaws, dependencies, neediness, etc...I have made peace with a lot of it. Now I have learned a bit so I process things differently, don't always feel the same emotions as I have a different perspective, and process my emotions in a slightly healthier way...and having seen the damage I've caused by being less responsible I think I'd be a bit more sensitive and mature. But we're talking about degrees, not night and day.
I don't expect any different from my partner. I read the 'passion trap' book where they talked about how in every relationship there is a push/pull dynamic, from time together, to sexual desire, to much more. I think the idea of trying to find a fit so perfect that it eliminates conflict is chasing the unicorn. I believe it's more important to find a partner that takes their role and commitment as a spouse seriously enough to transcend their natural desires and find ways to partner so that both people can feel fulfilled.
Things to avoid in my mind are people that think their feelings are more valid than their partners, who form perspectives based on their feelings that they think are 'correct', who diminish their partner's needs because they conflict with theirs, then point at their partners inevitable flaws to justify why they are right and their partner is wrong and needs to change to fit their bill...and who finally leaves to find a 'better fit'.
Instead I'd like to find a partner who can understand that is playing out on both sides of the coin, we're both right, we're both wrong, we're both flawed, and we need to somehow mix in time together and time apart, sexual binges and some patience when life gets in the way, a vacation where every day is spent joined at the hip and a vacation separate where H can hang with guy friends and W with girlfriends. But in the end both parties should be aware of each other's needs, fears, insecurities, and desires, and make them a priority.
I do think that's possible, and I look forward to it someday. Frankly I don't think there's a level of neediness that would scare off a man that can manage that, as long as you can do the same. Which may mean there are weeks you don't get the level of emotional support you want, followed by weeks where you can get as close as you want. Or something like that.
As to how to recognize that individual...I'm not sure. For me I think the best answer would be their past, and their conversation. At this point I feel I'm pretty 'hulked out' in the sense that I've been on these boards an hour a day for 18 months. I feel like I can tell how someone thinks to some extent. In pool, where I play high level, I know how good someone is before seeing them play just by hearing them talk. And after competing enough in sales and pool I can often times tell how good someone is in their field, even if I know nothing about it, because I see the same patterns of attitudes and outlooks, and I know what type of results that equates to on the bell curve. So I hope that by remaining on these forums and continuing to do the work I can reach a point where I can have a conversation with someone and get a good read on where they're at, then listen to them talk about their past, how they've made life decisions, etc. If someone talked about DBing for 2 years after the loss of their marriage, for example, that would send a totally different message than someone who says they left because their last partner was abusive and they couldn't live with them anymore.
Good conversation JB. I hope my reply conveys the deep respect I have for you
Zues,
"Instead I'd like to find a partner who can understand that is playing out on both sides of the coin, we're both right, we're both wrong, we're both flawed, and we need to somehow mix in time together and time apart, sexual binges and some patience when life gets in the way, a vacation where every day is spent joined at the hip and a vacation separate where H can hang with guy friends and W with girlfriends. But in the end both parties should be aware of each other's needs, fears, insecurities, and desires, and make them a priority."
I think I am this person or definitely becoming this person and I think this is the type of relationship that would suit me and I am looking for. I am just not sure how many men out there who think like this. I am finding that the 40+ year old male, is somewhat disillusioned by his experiences with his former wife/partner and seems somewhat resolved to being "true to himself"..."not changing for anyone"..."this is me, take or it leave it". For me these all seem very concrete positions. There is no flexibility for what intimate relationships call for. This is the starting place that some of these men are coming from. It feels so defended.
My natural disposition lends itself to a more fluid and kinder place. But is that my co-dependent thinking, everything can be resolved if we both just give and take. I guess I am disappointed with the above responses and because I no longer try a convince men there are different ways of relating and being in relationship, I just end up thinking that it must be me. I must be incredibly idealistic about people and relationships.
I am very confused. And I am not sure why.
Thanks for the post Zues. I know how you feel about me.
I am just not sure how many men out there who think like this. I am finding that the 40+ year old male, is somewhat disillusioned by his experiences with his former wife/partner and seems somewhat resolved to being "true to himself"..."not changing for anyone"..."this is me, take or it leave it". For me these all seem very concrete positions. There is no flexibility for what intimate relationships call for. This is the starting place that some of these men are coming from. It feels so defended.
Funny, this is the same fear I have about women. I'd add "My kids will always come first", and "I don't need a man to be happy and won't put up with any crap".
I agree. What I bring to a relationship is very flexible. I have a job, children, hobbies, and a personality...so the structure of my life is somewhat shaped. But within that structure I would make my partner #1, and have no preconceived ideas on what to build with it. I'd want to build that together and merge lives with someone else's structure. That's what I think is funny about personal adds. I'm not all about listing what my life is. I'm like, 'let's discover what our life together could be'. And of course the structure could change a bit as well. I'll never be one of those people that never remarries and has a girlfriend where we keep our own houses. I'm all in or not interested.
At least we know we've still got people like us out there. And it adds value. When you ask yourself 'what do I bring', you can now answer 'an attitude that gives a real relationship a chance'. Some people might want a nice fling with an independent woman that passes herself off as hot stuff, to me I'd rather stab myself in the leg with a pen. I'll take real and gritty and ready to climb the mount everest of marriage anyday...
Respectfully yours,
Z
I just end up thinking that it must be me.
Its not, stop thinking that way.
I am just not sure how many men out there who think like this. I am finding that the 40+ year old male, is somewhat disillusioned by his experiences with his former wife/partner and seems somewhat resolved to being "true to himself"..."not changing for anyone"..."this is me, take or it leave it". For me these all seem very concrete positions. There is no flexibility for what intimate relationships call for. This is the starting place that some of these men are coming from. It feels so defended.
Funny, this is the same fear I have about women. I'd add "My kids will always come first", and "I don't need a man to be happy and won't put up with any crap".
I agree. What I bring to a relationship is very flexible. I have a job, children, hobbies, and a personality...so the structure of my life is somewhat shaped. But within that structure I would make my partner #1, and have no preconceived ideas on what to build with it. I'd want to build that together and merge lives with someone else's structure. That's what I think is funny about personal adds. I'm not all about listing what my life is. I'm like, 'let's discover what our life together could be'. And of course the structure could change a bit as well. I'll never be one of those people that never remarries and has a girlfriend where we keep our own houses. I'm all in or not interested.
At least we know we've still got people like us out there. And it adds value. When you ask yourself 'what do I bring', you can now answer 'an attitude that gives a real relationship a chance'. Some people might want a nice fling with an independent woman that passes herself off as hot stuff, to me I'd rather stab myself in the leg with a pen. I'll take real and gritty and ready to climb the mount everest of marriage anyday...
Respectfully yours,
Z
Where are these men who think like you, who want to DB the sh*t out of their marriage to get their wives back. Are they all married? Fully engaging in their commitment.
I guess my comments are just a reflection of my frustration of being lonely. I miss being part of a couple. I guess I miss feeling loved. I wonder if I would ever be enough inspiration for man to want to DB.
That's what I keep thinking - the good ones are taken. And I really want a partnership. But not at any cost. And how the he!! do I find someone with enough self awareness to not run away or give up at the first sign of trouble.
Sigh.
Hi JB
One of the best holidays of my life (and W).
Flew to Christchurch, hired a camper van and spent about 2 weeks touring South Island and half a week in the North. Then stayed with friends in Auckland . I remember having dinner in the Sky Tower revolving restaurant...another highlight.
W was pregnant ( 2 months) with first son so it was 12 years ago not 8! We didn't get as much tramping done as we would have liked because she was pregnant.
Sigh ......
Is,
Sounds like you saw NZ in the best way possible traveling the road. One of the biggest tramping countries in the world. I'm glad you had a good time here. It's beautiful part of the world. I'm glad you got to see it. I like there are boarders that know some of the places I see everyday. Some other brilliant restaurants have come up around the skytower now. Aucklanders have access to some amazing food.
Come back and visit sometime.
That's what I keep thinking - the good ones are taken. And I really want a partnership. But not at any cost. And how the he!! do I find someone with enough self awareness to not run away or give up at the first sign of trouble.
Sigh.
I guess Gmum, you choose well, then rely a lot of on how much you have developed and grown yourself and then, some pray and some luck. That's my plan.
There are some beautiful, good, insightful, sexy, self aware and soulful men on the boards Gmum. You gotta hope you might run into similar IRL at sometime.
There is still hope for you Gmum, really with H or someone else. You have so much spirit, beautiful inside and out. Hold your hope. It is too soon for you to become hopeless and cynical.
I love the Swingers movie too btw. My Mr M, was a Vince Vaughan type - looks and personality. Watch any Vince Vaughan movie, that's him. Can't help thinking of Mr M whenever I see him in a movie.
Lots of love Gmum
JellyBxxx
Something Mu wrote recently has raised some interesting thoughts for me. To badly paraphrase he was asking about self forgiveness and how one does it. Mu said he would try.
I have been asking myself for months, how does one have self love and self worth. I am beginning to think that Yoda may have the answer "do or not do, there is no try".
When I try to make this happen and do all the things that people who love themselves do, I find myself with such resistance. I think I have been seeing this as more of an action, rather than a feeling or a state mind. That somehow if I could just learn how to do it, suddenly all the information would click together one day and I would just feel self love and worthiness.
But in the last week, it seems to me that self love and self worth are more a state of being rather than doing. I am sure that most of you are going "Duh" but this is a new way of thinking for me.
I think it my relationships knowing that I didn't love myself or feel worthy of love, just made me feel like I had to try and prove otherwise. I anticipated that my needs wouldn't be met and they rarely were.
So I have been thinking that the answer to Mu's question about how forgive yourself self and mine about to have self love and self worth. Well I think the answer is you just decide to. You just decide to forgive yourself and decide to live your life as person who is forgiven. I just have decide that I love myself and be worthy and live my life that way.
Maybe this is completely simplistic thinking. But what if this is the case.
Navel gazing extraordinaire
JellyBxxx
It is the case, Jelly. I believe in God. Others call it a Higher Power. Either way, the HP only knows love. There is no disappointment, judgement, or failures. It is only pure love. I am a child of God. I am unique. I am special. I make mistakes all the time - but that is part of my purpose here...to learn, to grow, to develop.
We were meant to love and be loved. We are already loved by something so much more pure than we can ever be. We are loved before, during, and after any mistakes or failures on our parts. I was created for a purpose, because I was loved. How can I NOT love something that was created by something far greater than I will ever know or fully understand? To not love a lovingly created being, seems a sin in and of itself.
Even when I was at my lowest, it wasn't self-hatred. It was pain driving me. A lot of it is The Law of Attraction. You attract that to you which you are expecting. I have no doubts that after I have learned the lessons this season has to teach me, I will be happy again. I fully believe that.
You know that beautiful soul full of compassion you have, Jelly? Turn it inwards. You have a beautiful soul. I can see it. Others can see it. Trust me, it is there. You are worthy of love. You are special. There is no reason not to love yourself. If you have to, look at it as choosing to love the creation of God. You are not, and never were, a mistake. You were designed and put here, with love.
It is that simple. The truth though, is that the simplest things are sometimes the hardest things to understand. It just is. Love what God made....that is you.
It is the case, Jelly. I believe in God. Others call it a Higher Power. Either way, the HP only knows love. There is no disappointment, judgement, or failures. It is only pure love. I am a child of God. I am unique. I am special. I make mistakes all the time - but that is part of my purpose here...to learn, to grow, to develop.
We were meant to love and be loved. We are already loved by something so much more pure than we can ever be. We are loved before, during, and after any mistakes or failures on our parts. I was created for a purpose, because I was loved. How can I NOT love something that was created by something far greater than I will ever know or fully understand? To not love a lovingly created being, seems a sin in and of itself.
Even when I was at my lowest, it wasn't self-hatred. It was pain driving me. A lot of it is The Law of Attraction. You attract that to you which you are expecting. I have no doubts that after I have learned the lessons this season has to teach me, I will be happy again. I fully believe that.
You know that beautiful soul full of compassion you have, Jelly? Turn it inwards. You have a beautiful soul. I can see it. Others can see it. Trust me, it is there. You are worthy of love. You are special. There is no reason not to love yourself. If you have to, look at it as choosing to love the creation of God. You are not, and never were, a mistake. You were designed and put here, with love.
It is that simple. The truth though, is that the simplest things are sometimes the hardest things to understand. It just is. Love what God made....that is you.
Thank you Ancaire for you kind words. Much love JellyBxxx
Hello my most favorite in the world Kiwi, has the universe delivered anything entertaining today for your amusement? I have the day off and I will spend it creating and reading.
I google imaged the places you referenced a couple pages back, they look beautiful. If I ever make it to Australia, I will make sure I travel through New Zealand. I would love see the stars of the southern sky for the first time with you.
I have decided to maintain a higher state of vigilance in respect to three issues in my current evolution, Codependency, self love and strength of character. If I can get better footing in these three aspects of my life my path would not seem so arduous.
I heard a movie quote and it gave me pause. I am not sure if it is true. I would like to get your thoughts on it.
"Inner beauty's the easiest thing in the world to see when you're looking for it... The brain sees what the heart wants it to feel."
I believe the first line is true. Do you believe the second line is true? If this is true, it is a double edged sword. It would explain why we fall in love and why it can change. What do you think? Is it emotion transformed into thought? Do you think it can work the other way also? I don't know what to think. I guess I can't see the forest because the trees block my view.
Thank you for your post JB. Your words meant more to me than you know.
I don't have the answers on self love or self worth. Personally I think they might be a bit overrated in the following way: If you feel there is some better life that you can only have once you crack some code of self worth...then you will spend your life trying to figure it out, wondering if you have solved it yet, poking, prodding, asking 'am I there yet, can I start enjoying my life to the fullest yet?'
No, I believe life can be awesome even if you struggle with self worth. There is nothing you're missing. Nothing except giving yourself permission to enjoy the screwed up life you have. Self love isn't about changing how you feel about yourself. It's about changing how you feel about how you feel about yourself.
I don't know, thought I'd try that on and see if it worked. Bottom line JB, whether you do or do not, you're pretty cool. And so what if you want a man's love. You'll get it. And some guys might consider a tiny bit of dependence a good thing vs. the independence we were talking about earlier. In the meantime, thanks for being on the forums. Did I mention I'm reading my kids Lord of the Rings? Someday I have to check out Hobbiton...
JellyB,
Why does it have to be all one or the other?
Isn't it just possible that this is a continuum and that at any one point it could be any juxtaposition?
Just as surely as someone who can only do one or the other is unbalanced.
A man who only has a hammer can only knock the head of the screw and the man with the screw driver can't drive in the nail. Those with a hammer and a screwdriver can hammer or screwdriver as appropriate.
I see myself as a girl who only had a hammer, now I have a srewdriver set, allen keys, plumbers wrench, socket set and am acquiring other tools.
So each sitch each moment, requires something different, that which works. Beware of using the same tool (skillset) in all sitches.
Adapt.
That is my thinking, when what we do ceases to work, adapt and change.
That's my thinking and my aim to get the biggest toolkit I can.
One day my blow torch will come in handy again!
V
JellyB,
Why does it have to be all one or the other?
Isn't it just possible that this is a continuum and that at any one point it could be any juxtaposition?
Just as surely as someone who can only do one or the other is unbalanced.
A man who only has a hammer can only knock the head of the screw and the man with the screw driver can't drive in the nail. Those with a hammer and a screwdriver can hammer or screwdriver as appropriate.
I see myself as a girl who only had a hammer, now I have a srewdriver set, allen keys, plumbers wrench, socket set and am acquiring other tools.
So each sitch each moment, requires something different, that which works. Beware of using the same tool (skillset) in all sitches.
Adapt.
That is my thinking, when what we do ceases to work, adapt and change.
That's my thinking and my aim to get the biggest toolkit I can.
One day my blow torch will come in handy again!
V
So I am relying on only one tool? What tool am I relying on?
Sorry V, I'm a bit lost.
I appear to be cryptic today, I managed to baffle Fogg too!
I refer to either being independent or being intertwined.
The same applies to being high self worth or low self worth.
Or being self love or self denying.
I make no judgement on which tool you have or want to use. Just that independence has its uses and so has being a stickle brick.
In addition just suppose we were here to learn and that failure is just another way to learn.
Just suppose that was our lifes purpose to grow and to make mistakes, by making mistakes we fulfil our purpose and make progress. In fact the more mistakes we make the more progress we make when we surrender to our Higher Power. Mistakes bring humility and humanity. We learn most from mistakes. We need mistakes as well as successes, a continuum.
So mistakes are part of our toolkit too. It isn't mistakes that are the problem at all, but not growing or deliberately causing harm.
How much more are we loveable and loved because of the mistakes and not in spite of them.
Go ahead make all the mistakes you can, if you need a fellow traveller I will do.
V
Hey there Jelly - just checking in and really loving the care you are getting here - including the care you are giving yourself. You may consider it navel gazing but really isn't it just trying to figure out the world? I find myself doing this all too often too. The questions you ask about men and time and space are great questions to ask, but I guess it all depends on the man. (sorry to backtrack so far - your thread moved very quickly - that's a lot of care
)
I would say that many of the men that I know don't really seem to be interested in giving their wives the time that they want, and seem selfish to me, but there they are still married, and here I am - not so much. I always found myself on the other end of the spectrum and was criticized by my male friends for being too close, not independent enough and more derogatory terms. I laughed it off and thought I knew what I valued and what I didn't need in my life.
I don't know if this is something that I would necessarily change about me, I guess I would fit more into my life. More her, more kids, and mix in more me with that. I don't think changing my priority to all me is what I would do though. Even after this mess, I still would keep the R as the priority. Maybe I am destined to fail.
But anyway - find the love you have for yourself (was there a time that you loved yourself or was proud of yourself? remember those moments and work toward those feelings again). Sure just saying now I love myself may not do the trick, but to build around a time that you actually loved yourself may help. I was reminded of a former me over the weekend by some old friends and it surely helped me focus on at least liking myself again.
Big hug from the arctic
u-turn
Hi jellyB
Regarding self love...
I think in order to love yourself you have to accept that you are not perfect and will never be perfect. You have to learn to embrace your flaws for what they are and not take them too seriously. When you worry too much about them they just drag you down. I think truly the best way to learn to love yourself is to learn to laugh at yourself. Personally, I like the people that are flawed because they are relatable and real and honest and more interesting, so why wouldn't I like myself? Perfection is boring and just a mirage.
I obviously have a very skewed view on all of this...hmmmmm feeling frustrated...
who are the women that you like to be around? Do they say the right thing? Never make mistakes? Look immaculate every moment of the day? Have a spotless home that looks like it's out of a magazine?
Or are they relatable people that don't always do the right thing, perhaps come to work with their shirts on backwards, or secretly clean that spill up with their socks?
I think it's easy to come to terms with being imperfect when you give yourself the same slack that you give others.
I guess it's not even giving them slack, it liking them because they do these things and these things are very human.
Lovely Mu,
Hello my most favorite in the world Kiwi, has the universe delivered anything entertaining today for your amusement? I have the day off and I will spend it creating and reading.
I google imaged the places you referenced a couple pages back, they look beautiful. If I ever make it to Australia, I will make sure I travel through New Zealand. I would love see the stars of the southern sky for the first time with you.
I have decided to maintain a higher state of vigilance in respect to three issues in my current evolution, Codependency, self love and strength of character. If I can get better footing in these three aspects of my life my path would not seem so arduous.
I heard a movie quote and it gave me pause. I am not sure if it is true. I would like to get your thoughts on it.
"Inner beauty's the easiest thing in the world to see when you're looking for it... The brain sees what the heart wants it to feel."
I believe the first line is true. Do you believe the second line is true? If this is true, it is a double edged sword. It would explain why we fall in love and why it can change. What do you think? Is it emotion transformed into thought? Do you think it can work the other way also? I don't know what to think. I guess I can't see the forest because the trees block my view.
I’m not sure if I am the right person to answer any of the above Mu. I am think I am also in the forest.
Mu you do know this quote is from a film called Shallow Hal? Lol
I don’t disagree with the first sentence. I guess I have a fundamental belief that most human beings see the beauty in others. I think there are few truly shallow people who are only interested in skin deep. I also think that outer or inner beauty is well, particular. I don’t believe that you can be beautiful to everyone. I guess that is where “when you are looking for it” comes into it. Everyone sees beauty where they believe they can find it. Potentially that means that some people find it at only a skin deep level. And think that this has to be ok.
I have never been a skin deep person, my life has required me to see beyond what is on the outer. The hypocrisy I would have felt to not see others would have been overwhelming and shaming for me. I have relied my entire life on the trust that the world would see beyond the me that wasn’t my weight. Don’t get me wrong, at times in my life I have felt that having my “inner beauty” seen has felt like the consolation prize, like being called the girl with the great personality, or the smart one, or she’s really funny. I have to say though that it is also likely that my experience of seeing people in their fullness means I that I have met some very cool and amazing people. It means that I met Mr Ex, wheelchair and all.
With regard to the second bit of the quote “The brain sees what the heart wants to feel”.
Here is something in response “ If you want to know where your heart is, look where your mind goes when it starts to wander” .
Mu, I’m not sure this is doubled edged sword, I think this is the joy of life. I am a romantic soul at my very heart, and falling in love will never be an exercise in rationality, as is falling out of love with someone. I absolutely know when I meet someone if I can fall in love with them. I met someone a few months ago and have been seeing him on and off for the last few months, and I know that I could fall madly, deeply and truly head over heels for him. But what stops me from doing so. It isn’t returned. My feelings for him are unrequited. The saddest of all loves. But it would seem an accepted part of life. I currently have a very full awareness of his lack of feeling in return. Do my thoughts to myself change my what heart feels, absolutely not. But my thoughts do dictate how much further I invest him. I am slowly turning the feelings I feel for him as I accept more and more that he does not feel the same way about me. Over time, these feelings will dwindle, and then there will be a time, when my heart won’t hiccup at the mere thought of him.
Mu, I am sure that none of the above has answered any of your questions.
Can I ask Mu, why this quote has resonated with you.
Self love isn't about changing how you feel about yourself. It's about changing how you feel about how you feel about yourself.
This has to be one of the best Zuesisms ever!
Thank you gorgeous man!
JellyBxxx
I guess it's not even giving them slack, it liking them because they do these things and these things are very human.
I think Julie I am just trying too hard to be everything to myself and everybody else. But I am not sure how to be any other way. I guess what you and V and Zues are all saying is stop trying to be anything other than what I am.
I guess I get confused about trying to figure all the things that I did that led me to have two failed relationships with two reasonably honest good men. Trying to fix my lack of friendships and social connections and trying to fix why I limit success in my life. Your supposed to fix these things to have a better life, to avoid making the same mistakes over again. Although V advocates for making lots of mistakes and growing that way.
God when I write it like that...oh dear! I'm f**ked!! Aarrraagggghhhh!
Hey there Jelly - just checking in and really loving the care you are getting here - including the care you are giving yourself. You may consider it navel gazing but really isn't it just trying to figure out the world? I find myself doing this all too often too. The questions you ask about men and time and space are great questions to ask, but I guess it all depends on the man. (sorry to backtrack so far - your thread moved very quickly - that's a lot of care )
Yes U, I have been very fortunate of late to be shown a lot of love and investment. I am very grateful to those that really do care about me and what happens to me. I don't think I have ever experienced such care and love in my life. It is an usual feeling being on the receiving end. I'm awkward with it sometimes. Clumsy even.
I would say that many of the men that I know don't really seem to be interested in giving their wives the time that they want, and seem selfish to me, but there they are still married, and here I am - not so much. I always found myself on the other end of the spectrum and was criticized by my male friends for being too close, not independent enough and more derogatory terms. I laughed it off and thought I knew what I valued and what I didn't need in my life.
I don't know if this is something that I would necessarily change about me, I guess I would fit more into my life. More her, more kids, and mix in more me with that. I don't think changing my priority to all me is what I would do though. Even after this mess, I still would keep the R as the priority. Maybe I am destined to fail.
I would love a man in my life who was prepared to prioritize a relationship with me. I have not had that experience with either Mr M or Mr Ex. But as you said maybe that is not the expectation to have. I always felt that I came after everything. After the cycling, after Mr Ex's daughter, after work, after, after, after.
But anyway - find the love you have for yourself (was there a time that you loved yourself or was proud of yourself? remember those moments and work toward those feelings again). Sure just saying now I love myself may not do the trick, but to build around a time that you actually loved yourself may help. I was reminded of a former me over the weekend by some old friends and it surely helped me focus on at least liking myself again.
I think we have talked about this before U. Loving myself has never been something I have been able to do, liking myself has been a stretch. I think that I have always felt a sense of underachievement in my life so haven't felt worthy of thinking well of myself.
If I am completely honest. I have a list in my head that goes something along the lines of.
1. Fat - fail
2. Virgin till 29 - Fail
3. First relationship and 35, ended - fail
4. Second relationship at 39 ended - fail
5. No marriage - fail
6. No children - fail
7. No home of my own- fail
8. Completely crazy - fail
9. Socially phobic -fail
10. No career progress - fail
11. Financial mediocrity- fail
I run this list over and over in my head to the point that I don't even recognise that I'm doing it anymore. I have read that there are a group of people who find it very hard to engage consciously with their successes and achievements. I don't know why I do it. Likely habit more than anything. Just so practiced at it , that I barely notice it.
I had supervision with my supervisor today. Interesting conversation. She wanted to know how I was going. She reviewed a piece of work that I had completed and she gave me positive feedback on what I had done. Which was nice, as I have been struggling to find a comfortable narrative style for writing my assessments. Its a new tool and I haven't liked not knowing how to do it.
But the interesting part of the conversation related to an observation I had made of myself with an interaction with a colleague. This colleague is incredibly dynamic worker, gets social work practice, but is also onto it strategically. Gets the bigger picture stuff and is a brilliant networker. And she is one of the most upbeat positive spin people I have come across. When talking with her about practice related issues she is always very clear and frames her stuff incredibly well. I guess to sum it all up, I am intimidated by how good she actually is.
My Social Work style is incredibly different. I know my stuff, theory and practice, but I don't have her flare. My style is soft but clear, I am likely far more therapeutically minded. I like the deeper connections both in what I read but also in my applications. More an observer and feeding back to people what I notice.
But here is the point. I was discussing my overall experience of my colleague and my sense of self in relationship to her, and said " I alway feel like the negative nelly, or downer when I'm in a room with S (colleague). I feel like whatever I say is never right or good enough when S is involved in the conversation. My supervisor made to critical observations.
1. This is not a competition JellyB
2. I don't perceive you to be a negative person at all.
So we discussion my tendency to constantly compare myself to others and we discussed that I have a difficult time gaging people's perceptions of me.
I am trying to give up the bad habit of comparison. My supervisor asked where I often put myself. I said always below or less than. We discussed how this was likely contributing to my feelings of my career stalling.
And talked a little about the my sense of people's perceptions. Often that I project my feelings about myself onto others, and assume that they feel as I feel about myself.
We ended the supervision with me explaining that same days it was a challenge being in my head. She laughed.
I am not sure why I shared that with you lovely U.
I miss you when you aren't around. I wish you would stop by more often.
Anyway I will stop by your thread with some light fluff, just to get your thread bumped.
lots of love U
JellyBxxx
"Can I ask Mu, why this quote has resonated with you."
I am trying to understand how to turn myself around. I love my wife so deeply and cannot get rid of my longing for her. This comes from somewhere. I see in the quote that my mind wants to detach from her and my heart does not. I feel like Sisyphus. I don't know what to do anymore. I can't go forward and I can't go back. Why do I continue to love someone who wants absolutely nothing to do with me. I guess my only choice is to love her and surrender to fate my future.
The quote was a way out of here for me. Like all other things I've tried, it's a dead end. I am sorry to have dumped this on your thread. I sought you out for your wisdom in matters of the heart. I'm sorry, I can't fix myself, my drama is not even that interesting.
Mu you are welcome to my place to share anything at anytime. You sound sad and heartbroken. There is no need to dismiss these feelings of love and attachment.
I can honestly say without a shadow of doubt that I still love Mr M, we have not been in each other's lives in any other way for the last 5 years other than the occasional phone call, text or coffee catch up.
It took a long time to not to feel the heartbreak and loss of him. To feel the love and be so overwhelmed by it. But the ache disspates over time. Life does continue, the colour is off life a little for a time, until one day you feel ok. I can look at Mr M now and I can feel happy that he has found someone who truly gets him and makes him feel loved. I never made he feel that way. It was my desire but I really did never make him feel that way.
Mu, you are living in an unnatural circumstance of being close to your lover, partner and friend and unable to make connection. It is inhumane and torturous. Don't ignore the reality of your situation. But recognise too that the heart and mind are operating under emotional warlike conditions and to have a pardon or leave from the hell would be liberating.
I have said this a couple of times on the board this week. That life and lessons come back on themselves. You have been doing the work Mu. The hard graft, the digging dig into yourself. For a this time your focus has been on you and your business. So for a moment you have peaked your head up and found that your sitch are the same. This saddens you and brings you back to feelings of grief and lost love. This is shift Mu. Because although it looks the same, you are seeing with different eyes and feeling with a different heart. Once the hurt and loss and heartache are felt, a new understanding and insight will come. Likely a new action or maybe just sitting with what is.
I would love to lighten this load for you my marvellous Mu. A thought springs to mind and this may not be your thing at all. I wonder if a therapuetic massage would be helpful. I know that your love language is Physical touch. Maybe some gentle touch would provide either some relief or some release. I am a physical touch girl. And I have found massage a good release for this at times. I have cried a couple of times on the massage table. Therapists expect it.
Once again please feel free to come by my thread anytime. My door is always open and hug always extended. You are very much loved.
JellyBxxx
Self love isn't about changing how you feel about yourself. It's about changing how you feel about how you feel about yourself.
This has to be one of the best Zuesisms ever!
Thank you gorgeous man!
JellyBxxx
Zeus, Did you come up with that yourself? Brilliant!! You should copyright it.
RAI
JellyB, the following was also posted on my thread. It is part thank you, part words of encouragement. Could not decide where it belonged, so I posted it to both our threads.
People who aren't regular posters get a bit lost in the noise of this place sometimes, so I tend to watch for them. Just so you know.
JellyB, thanks again for the advice. As a non-regular poster, I
do sometimes feels like I am posting to myself exclusively. I want you to know how nice it makes me feel to know that someone is looking out for me. Even if you don't reply, it means so much to me to know that you and others are watching over me. you picked up on my insecurity without me even having to mention it. Very empathic of you.
Also, I read your most recent thread. It seems like you have a knack for identifying the strength in others, but that you are simultaneously completely blind to your own strengths. I have news for you. You are
already a butterfly: you are living your life, tribulations and all. You are striving towards self-improvement.
Remember the Lion from the Wizard of Oz? He was afraid that he had no courage, but he
had it all along. the proof was in his
journey. Are you on a journey at present? I am assuming then that you have the sufficient courage to complete the journey.
For a long time it had seemed to me that life was about to begin - real life. But there was always some obstacle in the way. Something to be got through first, some unfinished business, time still to be served, a debt to be paid. Then life would begin. At last it dawned on me that these obstacles were my life.
-Alfred D. Souza
We all need to keep on keepin' on. Your life is not turning out the way you expected it. Is anyone's? That does not change who you are. A soul. When I read your last post to me, I thought to myself, who is this awesome DIVA? Another Ancaire, Another Vanilla, Another Sotto, Another Sandi? WOW! I challenge you to prove to me that you are NOT awesome.
RAI
Feeling very blessed today. Much love to you all. Chin up!
"The only real failure is the failure to try. And the measure of success is how we cope with disappointment. As we always must. We came here, and we tried. All of us, in our different ways. Can we be blamed for feeling we're too old to change? Too scared of disappointment to start it all again? We get up every morning, we do our best. Nothing else matters....
.... But it's also true that the person who risks nothing, does nothing; has nothing. All we know about the future is that it will be different. But, perhaps what we fear is that it will be the same. So, we must celebrate the changes. Because, as someone once said "Everything will be all right in the end. And if it's not all right, then trust me, it's not yet the end."
Evelyn Best Marigold Hotel
I like that movie.
Hope your day is a good one JB
Hi Jelly
I've been thinking about your post for a few days but didn't know how to respond as kits very similiar to what I was processing at the time. The idea of comparing my life to anothers, feelings of not being good enough and feeling like I failed. That pursuit of finally being good enough for something or someone. Its saddens me to think you see yourself as a failure because of all those things that may not have went your way. Things that very well could have been completely out of your control up until now. Things you associate with you and don't take into account life doesn't always go the way we would like it and that doesn't mean something is wrong with us.
So I worked out in my thread the problems of trying to fix things in myself and that came to a loop. If trying to fix ourselves is the problem, would stopping that fix us? But then I wonder, how can I grow as a person and become a better person if I'm not trying to fix myself, because fixing myself is one of my problems. Then I thought back to your post before how I always phrased things that I'm working toward fixing myself, showing me I'm broken. Showing that I don't accept myself as I am now but if I change into a new person I will. Yes, were all broken but that seems to also conflict with the idea we are all perfect just the way we are and should accept ourselves. But if we accept ourselves then how can we grow into something better.
I realized I was looking at things way too black and white. I always assumed I seen things from a balanced perspective. I've spent a great deal of time trying to understand W and stay in a place where I can empathize with what shes been through but not ignore the consequences of what shes done. Where I can see my role in the down fail of our M, but not ignore those issues because W is doing something worse. Outside, I think I see things very non black and white, but inside myself, that seems to be all I see.
Take being overweight as an example. I look at myself and I'm not happy with it. I don't accept how I look and its possible I never will regardless of how much I weight. So is the problem my weight or how I view my weight. If the problem is how I view it then accepting myself is the solution. But then by accepting there would be no reason to change it. So that makes me stuck. I chase the idea of what will make me happy instead of being happy. But heres where I think I see it too black and white. I can work towards being more in shape but love myself now also. Therse nothing wrong with accepting who I am now and still wanting to grow. Just because I want to grow into something else doesn't make the person I am now wrong, or the person I could be later right. Its just another aspect of my life and place I can be.
Again, I'm still exploring this and working through it so I might just be talking out of my a$$ and my view could be completely different in a another month.
Something that made me click was with my eating urges a few days ago. I told myself I wanted to lose weight, I had to go on a diet, I had to do this or that to get to a place where I'll be happy with myself. During those times I cave and eat an enormous amount of food, stop exercising and punish myself. So that day I decided to tell myself, I'm ok the way I am and its also ok to be working toward being more in shape. It doesn't mean either will make me happy, I need to do that inside regardless of what is outside. So knowing that, I stopped and got some fast food. I didn't beat myself up over it but I also didn't order the crazy amount I usually get. I got 1 single burger, without a meal(it was still a big burger) and I enjoyed it. The panic of needing to be smaller and weigh less causes me to do the opposite, overeat and be lazy. But, when I accepted myself I ate reasonably and even thought it may not have been the best, I didn't binge eat later in the day. I think that's why I like some of the paleo but doing the 80/20 portion. Right now maybe its more like 50/50 but that's ok. Its still better than the 100/0 I was doing off and on before(the 100 being all bad).
So all these things I knew about weight loss in the past, they never clicked. I cant do a diet to lose weight, I need to make a lifestyle change. That lifestyle change might just be accepting I can be at the weight I am now, or smaller, and still be happy. The irony of this kills me right now more than you know!
Sorry to spam, just working out thoughts. Hope they help. I think most of our problems are really only problems because we see them as problems that need to be fixed. So maybe fixing the problem is the problem, but its also ok to work toward changing as long as its not consuming us as a "problem that needs fixed to be happy".
At the root of it is ego. False identity.
The ego wants us to be important, and we are not. So it inflates our importance in our own mind. It creates an illusion and tries to convince ourselves that we are something special.
Sometimes it can do this directly, and we convince ourselves we are better than we really are...making excuses for our failures, distorting our memories and feeding on our highlight reel and convincing ourselves this is who we really are.
But othertimes our ego shows itself through criticism. We beat ourselves up for being mortal, flawed. This is actually the ego talking. When we criticize ourselves for things we would forgive in others we are really saying "Well, it's ok for the rest of the world to be overweight, but for ME this is unacceptable because I should be better than that". Holding ourselves to a different standard is actually egotistical.
When we try to eliminate the ego, it gets nasty, and says "but you NEED me, without me pushing you to be better you'd just be a worthless sack of crap, I am the one that whips you and drives you to be better...remember the time you did THIS, or THAT? That was because of what I did for you..." So we fall into the trap of serving our ego, thinking it knows what is best for us, that it will lead us the right way.
The ego feeds on feelings of inadequacy. I know a lot about it because I have battled inadequacy and ego my entire life. I'd say "I lost" the battle, but that is egotistical as it promotes false self modesty. It's a trap that I don't know I'll escape in my lifetime.
I have a lot more I could say on this topic, but the point I was trying to make is this- it is possible to grow and change without being unhappy with who you are. A baby learns to walk without beating itself up for being a pathetic crawler. We learn to talk without belittling ourselves. Learning is a natural process, and has nothing to do with self loathing or self criticism. Those are little extras we put in, as a backhanded way of complimenting ourselves on the fact we are so good that what we see in the mirror is a disgrace to how awesome we think we really are.
Zues
Just chiming in. I don't know how you come up with what you write here, but this really hit me. This is so spot-on for how ego has affected me and throughout life and so much during my lowest points in my situation. The feelings of inadequacy have overtaken me so many times - ego has loved feeding on this.
Thanks for putting into words what I try to figure out for myself so often.
Peace
u-turn
Thanks uturn. Trust me, ego and inadequacy have been a big challenge for me. It was a huge part of my pool playing. I'm on my way to a tournament now, but you inspired me to look up some of my old journal stuff on this. It has to do with pool of course. I'll quote it here and maybe we can talk about it on my thread if you want to reply, that way JB can actually get some support around this one
Thanks for letting me hijack JB.
Your ego tells you that you are the greatest player in the world. At first it feels great to hear, and you become addicted to placating the ego. You begin to treat your ego like a boss that you are trying to impress, constantly striving to earn its ongoing praise. You win tournaments, money matches, set new high runs, all striving to hear the occasional pat on the back from the ego. You collect praise from others and silently feed the ego at night.
When things go right the ego takes credit for your accomplishments. It says that it is your master, and if you serve it it will make you the greatest player in the world. In the meantime, every time you miss a ball it whips, saying “I should give up on you, how could the greatest player in the world miss that ball???” (This is apparent every time someone says “I should have made that” or “The score should be 4-2 right now”)
You believe that you deserve a whipping, even welcome it because you feel it is making you better. In fact, whip me harder, master. You want to satisfy your ego so badly that you wish to get whipped, because the more pain you endure now the better you will become. The ego admires your ability to welcome the pain, saying “You whip yourself harder than anyone in the world, keep this up and no one will ever beat you because they are too soft to go through what you are going through”.
Now you have reached the point where every poor performance is a session of self abuse, followed by depression. To heal, the ego stirs up memories of past performances, telling you how great you used to be, or how great you will be, and your misery today is worth it when compared to the amazing joy that will come once you can beat everybody all of the time.
On a good day, it takes credit for your performance and says “this is a taste of what serving me can get”. It then feeds on your win and gets you your fix. Often times the only way to get this fix is to blow your accomplishments out of proportion (I ran 5 racks, never missed a ball, won $5,000, played perfect, it was amazing). You then try to convince other players that this is true, because if they believe it then maybe you aren’t that far from reality. Constantly comparing yourself to other players, asking people how they think that you match up with so and so.
It is almost like people rank all of the players in the pool world, and assumes that the best players are the happiest. After all, they can feed their ego slightly bigger trophies, so they MUST be happy. In reality, they simply have a higher tolerance.
[PART II]
Ego says (laughable when you expose it):
(when you first pick up the cue) You can’t do this. Look at how hard it is for you. Everyone else is doing so much better. You must be the worst player in the world, might as well give up. (Ego telling you that the only reason to play is outcome, if you can’t get everything that you ever wanted easily, why bother?)
(when you make your first shot) Look at you! Now you’re talking. Shoot, you’ve only been playing for a few minutes and you already made that shot! Think of how great you’ll be in a few months! You could be the world champion! (bipolar already kicking in, ego building expectations, beginning to believe that happiness is attached to outcome and performance)
(when you get discouraged and someone gives you a pep talk) See, people are saying good things about you. Listen to me and do what I say and you’ll be great and achieve happiness, glory, and acceptance. (ego blows pep talk out of proportion and feasts on garbage. Person that gave the pep talk is part of a culture that thinks that it is normal that when a guy is ‘down’ you pump him up. That is feeding garbage, as what they really need is an ego check.)
(when you get positive results) See, I told you that if you listened to me you could become the greatest in the world. Aren’t you HAPPY NOW!!! Look at how perfect you are! You are the man, and everything that you do is awesome! Finally, you are there! (ego blows accomplishments out of proportion and feasts on more garbage. People around say things like, ‘gosh, so and so won one match and now he thinks he is the best in the world’. Obviously you have always felt that, and just needed a tiny bit of positive outcome for you to feel that way)
(when you get negative results) Do you know what? You might just be the most terrible player ever. Anybody with any ability at all would never have (missed that ball, lost that set, blah blah blah). Here you had a chance to be someone, to win, to be happy, to have something to show for your time here on the planet, but instead you blew it and now will be eternally worthless, despised by everyone who’s respect you need. And you deserve it, even misery is too good for you, being in agony every second for the rest of your life is more than you deserve after single handedly ruining my shot at fulfillment. (aha, MY shot, ego wants to feed and is furious that it gets nothing, may result in eating more garbage by fishing for flattery again)
(shortly after negative results- the deal) You had better not ever let that happen again! But you will, if you don’t have ME to help you. From now on, admit that you are horrible and that you need my help. Just do everything that I say from now on and you will be great. I can do great things for you and give you everything you want. Understand that you are miserable now so that greater happiness will come down the road, and it will be worth it. (mini ego feast to feel good again, maybe the ‘someday they’ll all see how good I play and then it will all be worth it’, or the ‘nobody else is willing to whip themselves this hard, they are all weak, that is why I’ll be the greatest’.)
Zues really interesting perspective
Foggy that's some really great insight about weight loss. Interesting regarding allowing yourself to be imperfect but actually preventing you from any binging
JellyB
I still stand by my love for people that are flawed. (My favorite characters were never the Disney princesses but I love those wicked witches! So much more fun and interesting and they always had depth Lol ).
Seriously though, we love Lucy because of her faults. Didn't you love grace and Karen from will and grace? Totally flawed. My best friend does so many things that are wrong but I love her for it. Ancaire, I never want you to suffer but I love you because you had the passion and righteousness to run into that truck. To be honest I would tell that story with pride (once it's a little bit more behind you) because it gives your soul lots of color.
A long time ago I wrote something pretty cruel and cutting about male and female dynamics...but honest to my best friend. This comment made us both look insensitive and pretty bad. It was more of a joke though. Like a joke where it's so bad but it's really joking about badness. Hard to explain. She had broken things off with her boyfriend at the time and he was mad at her and hacked into her transcripts and sent my husband a copy of what was written. My husband told me he did not read it and did not want to get involved. He joked with me, " I already know how nasty you can be. Your not sweet and innocent like everyone thinks". And we both laughed.
My point is that in a healthy relationship, you don't have to be perfect. Because your imperfections are what makes you you. You don't have to be perfect to have someone love you. They will love you because of your flaws. So embrace them laugh at them and then move on. Focus on the good things about you and keep building that up.
I really think it's as easy as that to learn to like yourself.
There is a difference between self esteem and self worth.
With self esteem we rely on how the world values us and we do so accordingly. High when we perform and low when we don't. Not enormously useful as it roller coaster ride in extremis. All the best screen psychos have high esteem and arrogance. This leads to unhealthy guilt and shame, inauthenticity and dissonance. The superficial smiles of FB. Transitory stability and ever drive to perform to excessive standards. An external measure.
It has its place as recognition and achievement together with the trappings of success and the disgrace of failure. The happiest on the podium steps is the gold medal winner then bronze and then silver. Many silver medal winners consider themselves second best. It's so sad.
Measuring ourselves on our self worth, as how we hold ourselves and our intentions is much better. Healthy guilt and shame holds us to account and we can allow ourselves foibles and mistakes. That's ok.
Self worth is our higher power at work. An internal measure.
We need to measure ourselves with the right yardstick.
V
The other posters have shared so much.
I just wanted to drop by between errands and say that, if I could see you,I bet you'll be as gorgeous and lovely as I imagine you to be.
*wink wink*
How are you my dear Jelly?
Oh what lovely people, thank you Foggy, Zues , Julie and Lady V thank you so very much for your posts, and investment in me. U-turn, Grlonfr and Mu thanks for checking in on me.
My head is spinning a bit, from the amazing posts you have made. I am attempting to sift through and find myself in what you have written and attempting to gain insight where I can. I feel shift happening incrementally. I feel like I am learning a new language and my brain and tongue gets a bit twisted in trying to 1. Make sense of it and 2. Get my head around the action.
Please forgive me for not responding individually I just need a little more time to process. On top though I think learning to let go of idealism and perfectionism is my lesson . I obviously expect it in myself, and see how I expect in others, in every facet of my life. I am a work in progress and I guess I will get there when I get there. Likely I will be human like everyone else and get there on my death bed. LOL.
It is an extraordinary experience to feel so loved and cared for. You all share a special place in my heart.
Jelly xxx
JB
Just checking in on your thread and wanted to give you some hugs you really are truly a lovely lady
You have been an absolute godsend and I am privileged to have you as a friend
Take good care of yourself
G x
Thanks G, I really appreciate you dropping by place. I am glad you feel coupld. I want to give back to a place and people that gave me a lifeline when I first separated from my ex. I was so scared of being alone again. Posters here rallied me and loved me, when I couldn't love myself and I didn't know what to do. They made me feel braver than I was. If I can pass that onto you or someone else. It makes me happy.
If you would like to do something for me. Please stick around to pass on what you learn. I saw in the last few days leading up to yesterday's triggers, you darting around the board leaving little notes of support and love. It made me feel so good to see. I would love to see you give back what people have invested in you. A kind of pay it forward G.
G, you have a lot to offer. You are a complete untapped goldmine. I'm not sure why I feel this way but I do. I think I recognise my own stubbornness in you. Like me, you tend not to like the thing that hurts you go. Most people know that when a burning match gets to your finger tips, its gonna hurt and burn.
That fact though G is that the flip side of stubbornness, is determination. The other thing I waiting for you is for you get angry and PO'd, about what is happening. I'm going to shout you a beer that day.
You have no idea how happy I am to have this conversation with you. As I said yesterday, if you are spinning come and chat with me. We can just shoot the breeze G. That's what friends do.
Sending you alot of love G. Come back and visit again.
Jellyxxx
I haven't thought about Mr Ex in any real way for sometime.
Probably since about May/June of last year when I was in the hell of fighting of a hospital infection.
I don't talk about him at all now, maybe a passing comment, but the gripping pain that used to wrench my gut doesnt happen anymore, when I say his name out loud or talk about an activity I did with him. That is gone and that is good.
But there is a legacy that hits me every now and then about the absolute disappointment I feel in him as human being and someone I chose to trust with the very essence of me. I am very cognisant of human frailty, I deal with it every day in my work. I have an endless amount of empathy and hope and care for people who have made a complete mess of their lives and treated others with unrelenting cruelty and disregard.
But Mr Ex's behaviour cuts closer and is more hurtful. I still don't understand why he couldn't see my pain and confusion. I still don't understand why the answer to the problem was to determine that we were incompatible and that it was easier for him flick me away lick a cigarette butt than it was to find something within himself to support me through the terrible hell I was in.
I have let go of the accussatory rage and despairing disappointment I weilded towards myself for not being enough, not being more, not being different. I whipped and lashed myself for months and months (Well years and years if you pile on top all my daddy issues).
I guess I have now replaced the disappointment in myself with the disappointment I feel in Mr Ex. And this disappointment, plays mind games with me about my future. It manifests in my fear in loving someone as deeply as I did him. I feel guarded in a way I haven't before.
Am I am generally an open book, once I allow someone to know me, I don't hide anything. I am picky about who I let into my inner circle. So to be so utterly betrayed by someone I let in. Like really exposed myself to, all my vulnerablities. I am angry in way that he exposed an innonence that I had.
My innocence was that love and commitment prevail over human ignorance and fraility. I am not sure I like a world where there isn't a level of romanticism about what human beings are capable of within intimate relationships. I miss the naievty I once had.
I am dating men and I see myself watching every word and action that is going to give me some clue to the way they are going to rip my heart out and make me watch as they break it one piece at a time.
So I am fearful I guess.
And fearfulness is the opposite of love really is it not?
Mr Ex broke something in me on October 5th 2015. But maybe too he fixed something. Or maybe I did.
In all the pain and devastation of a dream lost, I guess I found something that I would never likely experienced, or maybe I would have, the higher power has plan to get you where you need to go regardless the path you take to get there.
I am learning that not all pain needs to be suffered
I am learning that just because you think it needs fixing doesn't mean it's broken.
I am learning that appeareance doesn't determine value.
I am learning that comparison with always leave you feeling that you come up short.
I am learning that self compassion can heal any emotional wound, especially those you given in childhood.
I am learning that emotions just are, they come, they go - and you remain.
I am learning that happiness can and likely needs to be fleeting. I am learning it is not necessarily the noblest of goals to achieve.
I am learning that you love someone because of their flaws and not inspite of them.
This is not the post I thought I was making. Oh well.
Jellyxxx
You once commented that we won't find the intimacy we're craving in this world. I agree with that.
I posted some things on my thread that show I don't believe much in a marriage in which two people are compatible, bring out the best in each other, are functional, and fulfill each other. More and more I think this is the fantasy that people chase that destroys the reality that is achievable in this world.
What I do believe in is someone who will stick by your side even when it is bumpy. Who accepts that the butterflies don't stay forever, that we won't get all of the things we hoped we would out of our lifelong relationship. There is something even more romantic to me about the idea of two people sticking it out, even when it is just grinding through life, feeling lonely, feeling disappointed. To me that's true love. Because love is the act of staying, not the feeling of delight.
And maybe then, when those two people expect it least, they will have a moment or two in there when they realize how much they understand and love each other. Fleeting, like happiness. And like happiness it disappears if it is chased, vanishes with breakups and affairs. But if it is released and set free, it will come back and visit the marriage from time to time. But the beautiful thing is that when it leaves for a while both partners would know it will return someday. I believe that's what marriage is.
As for finding a partner that shares that belief...who knows. I am in a strange place. I can't see the future anymore. I can see now. I have goals just enough to me walking down the right path for me, then I let go and turn back to what's in front of me. I have faith that whatever is up ahead will be challenging and rewarding, whatever that is, and whether it looks like what I wanted or not, it will be ok. So the fear has mostly left me because when I have been afraid it is almost never because of where I am, and it is almost always about where I'm afraid I'll be. The more faith I have, the less fear I have. So I'd say faith is the opposite of fear.
Not the post I wanted to make either. Just saying hi to JB.
And reminding you to start a new thread.
Not the post I wanted to make either. Just saying hi to JB.
And reminding you to start a new thread. Zeus, that has to be the best "start a new thread" post I've seen so far! LOL
And, JB, that was an awesome post!
Dearest Jellyb
I hope I am not imposing. There is a poster on here that has not received many responses but is involved in a very complicated situation that involves 5 young adopted children and some challenging battles.
I am not sure how to advise and might be coming across too harshly because of the dynamics involving the kids. His name is Jimkao.
Jelly,
Please start a new thread.
Oh edit button, where for art thou...
The edit button appears and then disappears and works for just a few seconds and then poof! It's gone again.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2651537#Post2651537