Just keep swimming in a new direction

Am not sure where I belong now 2

A new thread; a new beginning.

So, I finally decided to talk about kid's dream about OW to the X face to face. Talking about it through text is just so akward.

Before I picked kid up, I made sure to freshen up, put on some blusher and perfume. Put on a racer tank and some really short running shorts. He may be the X but I didn't want him thinking 'That was the cow I married?'

He had already arrived when I got to the driveway. Told him I wanted to talk and asked kid to play on the swing. I was going to speak to him with him in the car as he hates it when I want to talk to him. Thought I would make it quick and painless.

Kid refused to play at the swings as it was dark but surprise, surprise. The X suggested that he parked the car and that I should take kid up to the apartment first.

We took quite some time and 2nd surprise of the night, the X wasn't angry that I took so long. He was on the swing and I took the seat opposite him. Any contact with him while he's with the OW sickens me, whether we're divorced or not.

Asked him for help with kid later in the month. We talked a little about the schedule.

Then I moved in for the kill. Told him about kid's dream about the OW showering in the apartment, how scared she felt and how she was reluctant to go back to the old apartment.

And 3rd surprise of the night. I was unflinchingly calm and civil. X had to look away and his eyes were red. He had this little smirk on his face that he always has when he didn't know what to say. He didnt blow up at me and he didnt deny.

Things were getting awkward so I asked him to get back to me again on whether he could help with kid. I had started walking away because my composure was crumbling. He said yes to my back. And this is so uncool but I was concentrating so hard on walking away that I couldn't stop to acknowledge his answer.

But hey, at least he got to see my new and improved figure from the back. And he watched for quite a while before he got into the car and drove off.

A few minutes after he left, he texted to ask if he could have kid one of the weekdays and if kid could stay over at his place before or after that.

I am thinking of asking him to wait till school breaks for the holidays since we're still paying full fees for this month. Will answer him in a while.

Thanks Job! Not very good with links.

I transfered the link to your first post
Hit the quote key to see how it is done, eliminate the quote html - Cadet

Glad that we can co-parent civilly and that the X has kid so often. It frees up time for me to look for my new apartment.

If he keeps this up, I might just forgive him for the TP. But not before I snag the cute younger guy.

I could still see the glimpses of the man I fell in love with, and I still like his strong brows and brown eyes. But he is feeling more and more like a stranger that I used to know.

Sounds like you did great. I wouldn't feel bad about walking away as you crumbled. Much better than the alternative.

Thanks tl2.

No reply from the X. No way he could have missed my message because he was using his phone.

This is the new reality and I just have to get used to it.

He didn't say if he was picking kid up from school and I don't want to ask him. Getting rather annoyed as he would tell me the schedule in the prior week and then remind me again on the day itself.

I have given specific instructions to the school that I am the only authorised person to pick kid up unless I told them otherwise.

Should I be all business and tell the school that I would be picking kid up?

It's going to be a tough day today. Kid was asking me questions about how the X and I met. What we did, how we fell in love.

Then she asked me why I couldnt join them for trips anymore. And why daddy likes the other girl and when daddy likes the other girl.

She told me that she would slap the OW and spit at her.

Must try my darnest to keep kid away from OW.

Decluttering will be good today.

The ex -fil called to ask to meet up. He kept asking me if I had spoken to the X.

Starting to feel uneasy. Are they trying to ask that I not be so strict about kid's NC with the OW? Non- negotiable until kid is at least a few years older and can fend for herself. Anyway,the court counsellor had suggested that any OP not be introduced to kid until 2 years after the D. I am definitely keeping count.

Are they going to tell me that he's getting married?

Anyway, cleared my workspace at work today and I was so proud of myself.

I would be prepared for anything as far as the meetup.

If it's about the OP I would stick to the court decision for now as that is a more objective, external source and you can simply say you agree with the court, but are willing to re-evaluate in 6 months or something.

I know it's hard to be prepared but also not to assume the worst in advance. But that will just put added stress on you.

"Are they going to get married?" Slow down a little there, lol. Whatever it is, good or bad, it's not going to help you to obsess and work yourself up over. You're strong enough and capable of handling whatever it will be fine.

I think the 2 years seems to be completely reasonable and I've thought about it myself. It doesn't put your own feelings into the mix since it's what's best for kid and X should be able to see that. At some point in the future (2 years down the road) you will have to accept they may interact but cross that bridge when you come to it. Their relationship may not even last that long so no reason to obsess over it.

Thanks tl2 and Fogg. Your responses keep me sane and remind me not to become Chicken Little.

I must have a game plan or I will be thrown off by my affection for my ex-fil. I will stand behind my decision to have NC btw kid and OW and back it with the court counsellor's suggestion.

No to taking the kid overseas without me as well. That would be stretching the parenting agreement too far.

If he asks that I try for R, I will stick to my script that there is no point for a R if OW is still in the picture and the X isn't willing to have NC. Well, the existence of the OW and the X's unwillingness to have NC were why the previous 2 attempts at R failed.

I have to get on with my life. I think the ex-fil finds it hard to understand how I will want to get on with my life if there isnt an OM in the picture. Funny how they are projecting their guilt over the A on me. I tried telling him over and over again that even though I have feelings for his son, and I will love to have a complete family again for the sake of kid, it just can't be. And it's not me, it's the X who has to realise what it is that he wants to fight for.

I have intel that the X was supposed to have married the OW right after the D and move in with her. I guessed as much from his actions and his eagerness to push ahead with the D. That is why I keep steeling myself and kid for this punch in the gut.

The X insists that just because he's seeing her doesn't mean he's going to marry her. He says that just because I am seeing someone doesn't mean I am going to marry him. I told him that I date with a long-time commitment in mind. No FWB for me.

So many lies. I wonder if he realises he's insulting my intelligence.

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I wonder if he realises he's insulting my intelligence.

Important thing is that YOU realize it!

I went through a period where my W would look me in the eyes and lie to my face or use half-truths to twist things in her favor. She did that often enough and I became mush-minded enough (which is totally the opposite of how I typically am) that while I didn't believe her I eventually learned how to live with all the vagueness and spin. Took me a long time to snap out of it and she still has a way of getting to me like that if I let her.

No one has ever been able to do that before. I am typically an aggressive, confident person. I somehow rewired my thinking with her over time. Really messed me up.

So stay strong in your confidence in yourself.

Yes, tl2, these WAS really have a way of messing with our minds...

Then again, his complaint was that I didn't make him feel like a man. The feminist in me rankles and feels insulted for having to dumb myself down. The best part is that I did ask for his opinions but he would always say that we shouldn't have 2 indian chiefs. And now he says that I have never, the key word is never, asked or respected his decision.

So I am going to do some major mindreading here and infer that what he meant was that he needed words of affirmation and that I could have shown respect in ways that doesnt insult my intelligence but would have built him up.

I suppose this is a big takeaway for my next relationship, whoever it may be with.

Well, you know what the most fragile thing in the world is, right?

Grl,

He still sounds like he dealt with you in a very passive-aggressive manner. That could be his personality, or it could be a part of your dynamic together.

Men don't need women to make us feel like men. Men want women to accept our manhood (no pun intended...well, maybe!) and be woman enough to appreciate it and deal with it.

I don't know how things worked with you guys, but we feel like men when we make good, healthy decisions as men and stick to them. Period. When we men diminish ourselves by accepting less from a mate who isn't willing to give it, we all go down an unhealthy road. We end up compromising our manhood away because we don't want to be alone, we think it's the new-age sensitive thing to do, etc.

Originally Posted By: Grlonfr

Then again, his complaint was that I didn't make him feel like a man. The feminist in me rankles and feels insulted for having to dumb myself down. The best part is that I did ask for his opinions but he would always say that we shouldn't have 2 indian chiefs. And now he says that I have never, the key word is never, asked or respected his decision.

So I am going to do some major mindreading here and infer that what he meant was that he needed words of affirmation and that I could have shown respect in ways that doesnt insult my intelligence but would have built him up.

I'll bite on this since (again) this is exactly what I would think about W. I'll start by saying he's going to be stuck and thinking only about the times he didn't feel like a man because of how you treated him. When he said you "didn't treat him like a man", the way I would see W doing that was how she talked down to me. How she would disrespect me and always seem to have an attitude with me. Yes, words of affirmation and there were times when I didn't get them that I would resent her for it. How could she me such a bitch to me all the time? I took it personal and felt she didn't see me as a man. So there's the nugget of truth of how he felt at that time.

The other side of this, since I now realize there's so much more to it. It's very likely this was only a phase and it was because he treated you the same way at some point also, you might have even had the same feelings and can relate to the above. There's also his own insecurities that fed into his actions where he expected you to make him feel like a man but he didn't feel like one himself. He, just like me, didn't act in any way a man should and on some deep down level knew that. We were looking for validation we weren't such a POS and when we didn't get it from our partner it only made us feel worse about ourselves. It's not that you didn't make him feel him a man, it's that you reminded him he didn't feel like one himself. When people scratch those deep wounds we end up reacting anf lashing out. So with all things, what was about him and not you.

So your last paragraph, yes you could have. But you were also dealing with your own internal things so the cycle of lashing out kept going back and forth. Both of you are responsible for it continuing. He's still responsible for his issues and you yours. It's easier not to get defensive and react when we realize things aren't personal. People act because of their own deep issues.

(His) ego and my current state of self esteem?.

Argh. The X just passed a message through kid that he isn't going to pick her up as he said he was going to.

He saw me when I picked kid up and doesn't he have fingers to text?

Wth is his problem? And wth is wrong with me for still getting angry with him?

I need some help here. Thanks!

How do I get across the point that he shouldn't pass messages through kid? Kid is too young to pass messages reliably and it just stresses her out.

I have got a day procedure under GA today. Need some major PMA here.

Quote:

How do I get across the point that he shouldn't pass messages through kid? Kid is too young to pass messages reliably and it just stresses her out.

Have you told him this directly? If so, what was his response?

Yes, he does have a tendency to be passive-aggressive. Part of him, part of me, and part of our dynamics.

I guess for him, it really is an ego thing. His family dynamics weren't the healthiest, and he was a fat kid. Didnt and still don't have a lot of friends.

Outwardly, I seem to be the more successful one. More friends, more outgoing, more go-getting, more successful in my career.

He always didn't understand why I have this urge to be upwardly mobile. He's had most things handed to him on a platter. Me, I've had to fight for what I want. That's because of my background too. He feels that I am too dramatic, passionate, just too too much for him to handle.

And ahem, he did say something similar to what you said about manhood... And he probably meant in all aspects of it too...

He has a lot of issues to work with and I have always tried to show that I am with him. Not against him. But I can see how I could have been warmer and show the side I show to my kid and my friends.

Because, because I don't always have that biatchy resting face. I can be silly, I can be warm, I can be flirtatious, I can be coy. I can be very loyal and I would have caught a grenade for him, even if I did it with a BRF.

I can be so so so many things but he just never gave me the opportunities to show him this side of me. Or maybe he did and I was too angry with having to juggle too many balls.

Fogg, you are speaking like my X. This was actually what he told me in many of our R talks leading to the D. Yes, it's that 'tude again and the BRF. Maybe I should look into plastic surgery? Sigh.

You are spot on about the fact that he probably felt like a POS himself at times. The thing is that I realised that both of his outbreaks took place during times when he was undergoing extreme stress that he didn't tell me about. The first time was financial difficulties. We were having a recession and the family business was affected.

And this time round, he seemed to have been quite unhappy with work and something else. The OW whispering into his ear that his (ex) wife was a POS who didn't understand him and who couldn't manage her own life and his?

I will never know. Because all he said was that I didn't make him feel like a man. He made me mind-read him all the time, even now. But I will stop rising to the bait.

And he pours his GD soul to the OW, and goodness knows what else... A little bit of anger is good for keeping the blues away when I am fasting for the day procedure and can't have my ADs. :P

tl2, I am sure that I have spoken to him about this before. And being the P-A PITA that he is, I don't think he gave me an outright answer. During the mandatory counselling for parents, this point was EMPHASISED.

And since he was so upset after the counselling sesssion, I would think that he would have remembered. So far, most of the times, he has informed me personally about the schedule for kid.

Will take a deep breath and just wait and see what happens. (a 180 for me). Still thinking about plan b if he really doesn't inform me soon.

On a side note, my ovaries and I are not on speaking terms.

P!ss Event no 1
Ran some errands and decided to pop into a Gap store. Big mistake. There were so many cute little outfits for cute little people that I will probably not be bringing into the world.

P!ss Event no 2
Went to GF's house and played with her chubby little baby boy. Boy and I fell into mutual adoration. I teased him, he chuckled. He chuckled and I teased him even more. And he was more than willing to coo sweet nothings to me as well. What a welcome change from what I've been having!

Ovaries asked me why I was torturing them like that. I asked ovaries to shut up.

The problem with having to mind-read your p-a spouse is that, in my experience, we never get it right and we spend a lot of time and energy doing something that turns out to be an expense (a permanent loss of time and energy) rather than an investment (a temporary expenditure for the spouse who then returns the favor).

Job 1 for all of us is communication. I had a psych professor once who said that, in her opinion, a relationship is simply an agreement to meet each other's needs. But in order to do that, we have to be open about those needs, and accepting of the person meeting them.

I just spent 20 years with someone who typically held me in contempt for not getting it right while never telling me what she wanted or allowing what I did do to make a difference. I will never go back to something like that. It was awful.

Mind reading is so tiring. Especially when we don't even get paid for it.

I totally agree with the part about meeting needs. How on earth do we meet needs if we have to read minds? Especially when they can't even make up their minds like the X?

Then again, for me, I will have to work on the accepting part. Double oops. I admit I can be rather impatient and critical. I am still a work in progress.

Funny how the X can text me to ask to have kid overnight but he hasnt told me that he won't be able to pick her up one of the nights.

And so I am still playing the wait and see game.

In my opinion if someone won't be direct most of the time it is probably for one of two reasons (and possibly sometimes both).

1. passive-aggressive tendencies or personality

2. they don't want you to know them (this could be for benign reasons, or really scary ones)

And while I clearly can't read your mind...I can read what you do with parentheses (never gonna live that down).

My dear GF was with me throughout my whole medical procedure and she had left her little boy whom she was breastfeeding at home. And never did she once complain, even when the procedure took longer than expected. We were there the whole day.

She waited for me to go into the operating theatre and walked me all the way in while I was on the gurney.

And I thought of how the X would have have got impatient 1 hour into the situation. And then mercifully the anaesthetic knocked me out before I could brood too much.

tl2,
I think for the X, it might be both. It could even be that he doesn't even know himself well.

And about the parentheses, well, in my defence, others do it too... It's just a matter of that extra tab of the space bar. What a difference an extra tab can make.... -_-

Quote:

It could even be that he doesn't even know himself well.

I think there's a lot of truth there...for all of us who have been in long-term problematic relationships. Prob applies to some of us more than others.

Originally Posted By: Grlonfr

Fogg, you are speaking like my X. This was actually what he told me in many of our R talks leading to the D. Yes, it's that 'tude again and the BRF. Maybe I should look into plastic surgery? Sigh.

No, don't feel that its something you need to change. The BRF is fine in a healthy relationship. Its when the dynamics are bad for both that its not so much, but thats on him and you.

Originally Posted By: Grlonfr

But I can see how I could have been warmer and show the side I show to my kid and my friends.

Because, because I don't always have that biatchy resting face. I can be silly, I can be warm, I can be flirtatious, I can be coy. I can be very loyal and I would have caught a grenade for him, even if I did it with a BRF.

I can be so so so many things but he just never gave me the opportunities to show him this side of me. Or maybe he did and I was too angry with having to juggle too many balls.

He knew the good sides of you. I seen all of those things from my W, they were what drew me to her and made me fall in love with her. I love her smile and the way her eyes light up when shes really happy. The creases that come out of the corners of her eyes that show how much someone smiles and laughs. It just makes me melt to see it. Her flirtatious side, I would do anything to have that toward me again. It drove me crazy in the best of ways.

What your H was complaining about and what I complained about also was later in the M things went from mostly those other good sides to the RBF. I would see them when she played and talked to the kids or when she interacted with her family/friends but when she turned to me it was like a switch went off. Early on I didn't even mind her flirting with other people because I knew that was how she was. Later on I became resentful because she still flirted with everyone, other than me. She smiled and laughed with everyone, other than me.

Sorry, letting out a little of my frustration. This was the way I thought before and only 1/2 the story. I hated she gave all her affection to others and only had me as the punching bag. The truth is I contributed to that happening just as much as she did. I was a jerk in the M and not the kind loving man she seen in the beginning. Not the helpful man who would do anything to relive come of her stress. When she looked at me she likely seen the same thing, someone who stopped doing thing. As time goes by both sides stopped doing what they did when they fell in love and blame the other for things breaking down. We just don't see it at the time, we like to ignore our own faults and focus on our partners instead.

Just like you, my W had so much on her plate that I let her do, I didn't help to take some of that burden. I justified not taking it because when I did it for a short amount of time I still got the attitude. I just looked at it like why bother. This was the mistake, I only did it to get her love instead of doing it to show my love so it never lasted long enough to mean anything. She wasn't the climber at work like you were and I never had things handed to me, so that's different, but the dynamics are still the same.

Theres a story in someones threads about dealing cards in a M. I think its in Zeus's thread but I could be wrong. I would try and remember/explain all of it but I would just end up tying a whole lot of nothing and slaughtering it.

Don't beat yourself up too much over the RBF and attitude, I don't want you to feel that because I mentioned it and talked like H that you were to blame. The dysfunction in our M's are the result of both partners, not just one. All we can do is learn our own roles in that breakdown, change it so it doesn't happen again and hope our S's do the same.

Sweet Fogg, you don't have to worry about me carrying too many monkeys on my back. I have decided to carry only mine and even then I will eventually shoo them away.

I can see how it was like for the X. And perhaps like your W, I had shown that nice side of me to everyone else but him. But like you said, he had his contributions to my RBF. Hindsight is such a bitter pill to swallow. If he or I had just perservered just a little longer, we would have met each other in the middle. Or is this wishful thinking as the OW was already in the picture?

When you channel my X like you do, I just miss him so much. I loved his cheeky smiles and his gurgling laughter.

For me, it probably is too late for the X. But Fogg, you have done so much work on yourself that you definitely are a much better Fogg.

Waiting played out well for me. The X did inform me of the change in his plans to pick up kid. So crisis averted.

I can't help but wonder if there was something different that I could have done the past few weeks? Maybe I shouldn't have called him, even if it was for kid? Maybe he felt that I was pursuing him?

It's this ambivalence that's killing me. He would ask me if I had anything else to say to him; what was it that he wanted me to say? And why when things seemed to be improving did he have to run back to the OW?

I guess I will never know and will just have to get on with my life.

Skated for 2 hours today and fell only once. Not too bad. Caught a movie with kid.

Regretted not going on a trip for the holidays as this was what we used to do. Would have been good to get away for a while.

Quote:

I can't help but wonder if there was something different that I could have done the past few weeks? Maybe I shouldn't have called him, even if it was for kid? Maybe he felt that I was pursuing him?

I've gone around this particular merry-go-round a few times this year

I can tell you...it's good to evaluate what works and what doesn't, but I don't think there is any perfect combination of choices on your part that will produce the results we want with our spouses and ex-spouses. Ultimately, all of the DB choices are for US to continue growing and moving through life with strength and dignity.

So...it's good to learn from our choices, but no need to second guess. All you can do is release them to the paths they choose, and release yourself from feeling like you have to pull just the right strings. In this situation, the future we want with our WAS's has to come from their accepting responsibility and moving back toward us, and from our recognizing that it can't truly happen any other way.

Tl2 nailed it. Learn from our mistakes. Better ourselves and don't shut the door to our S possible return. They have to come to us now. And when/if they do, just think of what they will find, version 2.0 of us dbers will be amazing!

Quote:

(His) ego and my current state of self esteem?.

The male ego is the most fragile.

Originally Posted By: sandi2

Quote:

(His) ego and my current state of self esteem?.

The male ego is the most fragile.

Impossible!!

You're funny.

Funny how I thought of Taylor Swift's Style when I read your response.

And yes, I have gone round and round a few times like you. I need to stop feeling like I am responsible for everything. I will do what I can, GAL, have a PMA and get on with my life, regardless of whether anyone wants to join my ride.

I am feeling not too bad today, so I would have to agree!

Hi Dday, hope you're feeling better.

You're right. Although at this point in time, I can imagine myself deriving a perverse pleasure in shutting the door in the X's face when he wants to come back. But that's just the hurt and the anger talking. You'll have to ask me again another day.

I seriously can't imagine the X wanting to come back, so I really will have to get on with my life without him.

I keep trying to imagine that he's dead, and that I'm widowed instead of D'ed. But it's kinda of hard to do that when we have to communicate regularly for kid.

New GAL Item (Just because I have to outdo tl2)

- volunteer for meals on wheels and take kid along

I was listening to One Directions' Perfect and I felt ridiculously happy.

I am starting to wonder if I am going into another phase of MLC. First, my taste in music. Second, I just feel this strange sense of restlessness and recklessness that I've felt before. This feeling of YOLO and that it's now or never.

Well, I suppose now that I am officially single and available, there's really nothing to stop myself from indulging in another round of MLC, is there?

So, the next time, guys, even much younger guys start checking me, I will smile back at them.

So, watch out world!

Nice GAL. And since you communicate and will be seeing each other regularly for the kid, you have plenty of opportunity to show him that you've moved forward/moved on and maybe he will decide to follow someday.

I actually signed my D papers today. Kids are grown. W is coming with the movers tomorrow for the rest of her stuff. After that, don't know when I will see her again. I'm sure she won't be knocking on my door though!

I think I will have to escalate this GAL stuff...so I'm going to become an astronaut so I can take all of your meals on wheels recipients to the moon and back.

Just remember...it's true that YOLO...but you also have to live with every memory you create...and everyone walks around with a camera...and everything's online haha!

As you can probably tell...I'm not much fun at parties

Sorry to hear about the signing of your papers. You're going to be on your trip with your family and friends soon?

I am not very good at the faking it till you feel it, especially when I know that he's probably meeting the OW almost every day now. There is a very good chance that he will decide to be with her.

Wow. Well if you ever become an astronaut, do bring back a souvenir from space!

Gotcha on the reminder that everything can be posted on youtube. I will make sure that I won't be caught doing anything I wouldn't want kid to see me do!

Btw, I didn't exactly hang from the chandeliers during my extremely brief partying days.

Grl, live the life you want. Enjoy it and maybe along the way h will come back to you. And maybe you won't want him by then because you are with the quarterback of the rams or something. Anyway, have some fun and things will get better.

Good luck!

Thanks, dday!

The X told me that I will only be able to attract guys who are inferior and who will let me dominate them. Ouch!

That is cruel. Unless you are talking about 50 shades kinda stuff, lol. 0% of what they say. He is probably hurting and projecting his feelings onto you.

Good luck!

I don't think he had in mind 50 shades of grey! :p

Ok, going to start my meals on wheels this coming week.

Next on my GAL list: decluttering my stuff in storage.

Kid is spending the weekends with me and my family. I have to keep telling myself not to think about how the X is going to spend the time with OW and her family. I just have to keep myself busy and keep using that big mental 'stop' sign.

Really have to because I unwittingly ran a red light while driving.

Good luck decluttering. Be careful, it may become a trip down memory lane. But, it may be cathartic too.

Good luck!

Hi dday, you're right. I am going to start with the simple stuff first like clothes... Thank goodness my wedding gowns are at my parents'.

Argh.

Things you should never ask a recently divorced person:
How are you? Especially if you are expecting a chirpy, "Wow, I feel fantastic and I have never felt better. I don't understand why I didnt do this earlier!"

Seriously? I mean seriously?

Ok. End of rant.

Grl,

Having just gone through the entire house and done the trip down memory lane, I had to do it in small batches. Makes it easier to stop and put away a small amount of stuff if things get too heavy.

Grl, my heart goes out to you. Can't be easy.

On the other hand you sound amazingly strong, I see a lot of myself in you. And I have every faith and feeling that no matter what happens- you're gonna come out on top! (Maybe in more than one way

)

I saw a quote that was something along the line of one day I'll be what you need, but don't wait too long- cause that may be the day I've finally given up.

Makes a lot of sense to me.

And the thing of the ovaries playing games, mine do the same.. It ain't fair girl- and it ain't easy

tl2, I will have to do the decluttering in batches, like you suggested. And then I still have to deal with the stuff at the X's. That I will leave till the last since there isn't any complaint from that corner. And that decluttering is something I am really not looking forward to.

I have to get my butt moving because any new place that I move to will have very limited storage.

Thanks Cherry!

I do hope I can walk through this baptism of fire... But there are days where like you, I just want to crawl into bed and stay there for a very long time.

My feeling is that the X will never see me as enough. And perhaps like what you quoted, it will really have to take me getting into another relationship before he wakes up to the idea that I am no longer there.

As for the ovaries games, you really don't have to worry. You have many more years ahead of you and I am sure that you'll be able to get a worthy daddy for the babies that you want.

As a man who wants more kids right now all this talk about ovaries is making me antsy! Just saying...

Grl,

Speaking as a man (I think I still am, though some days...), since you're the one who filed the D, he may be partially motivated to not appear weak or may be doing his routine in order to deal with the feelings of rejection (assuming he has them).

If that's the case, being casually sociable for the kid's sake but detached internally keeps you in front of him. If he gets over/past whatever he's feeling right now, you will still be there since the kid is so young. So there's plenty of time. But since this isn't going on your timeline, you can't get impatient!

I can tell you that despite feeling rejected in small amounts by my W for several years, her announcing she was leaving seriously intensified that feeling of rejection. Honestly, although I have moved forward and am in the process of moving on, it really, really hurts if I let it or dwell on it, and it doesn't feel like it will ever go away. I know it will, and I'm going there, but I'm not there yet.

Because of all this, I don't even want to see, hear, or be around my XW, and when I am, I have the urge to be either passive-aggressive, or aggressive-aggressive (which is more my style). I'm very agitated, uncomfortable, and annoyed.

Assuming he gets to the point where he's interested again, it will likely be a while. He needs time.

Keep in mind I'm not defending him. Just how I see it, and I may be projecting too much of how I feel right now on the sitch.

I have one D, but always wanted her to have siblings. It's killing me that that won't happen. Or any siblings will come from her dad and some OW.

Decluttering [censored], it's nice afterwards but making the tough decisions is he!! under these circumstances.
If my H gets his way and I have to move overseas, I'll have to leave everything here with him. I'll just have a few personal belongings, my clothes and my D's stuff. That feels weird - 15 years and nothing to show for it.

Soooo..... I can relate to wanting to stay in bed all day.

Hope you're having a decent day.

Grlonfire, I just got back from watching Mockingjay 2 and I have to tell you that I LOVE your username.

I also made some interesting connections between Peeta and my H, seems they have the same problem with being brainwashed and not being themselves....

Oh Fogg, like Cherry, you're still young! You have many years ahead of you!

Ha, tl2, well as you could still get that double entendre about the parentheses, make no mistake about it, you're still very much a man! Don't let anyone convince you otherwise!

I am so sorry about your hurt. Do you like hot chocolate? Sending hot chocolate your way.

That sense of rejection did come up in our R talks in the months leading to the D. He kept asking why I did what I did. And I tried explaining the fear and confusion that drove me to it. My mum was there during his outbursts and she's scarred by them as well.

But I can see his hurt. And when I reflected on my mini- MLC, I realised that he might have been wondering if I was unfaithful because of the way I was acting. So I get where you and he are coming from.

I feel that the OW helps him to get over his rejection and she's doing quite a good job at it. In fact, she may be doing or pretending to do such a good job that I don't think he has a reason to come back. He wants a carefree life and it seems the OW can offer him that.

He is very annoyed and uncomfortable around me, probably because of his guilt over the A as well.

And this is the best part, he is still angry with me because he says I get agitated. Well, well, Mr Pot doesn't realise that he's calling me black...

I don't know if he can get over his anger and his issues, because it's still all about me. And his family thinks it's all my fault too.

I used to think that it was all a matter of miscommunication and misplaced expectations. And I tried so hard for a second chance. But now I am so tired. There really is no point going back to what we left behind because it just didn't work and definitely won't work the second time round. He needs to know that life is real and gets messy. And it's not personal, it's just messy in different ways for everyone.

But yes, I will work hard on the casually sociable part. In the meantime, I will also have to work on my own sense of rejection. If I manage to smile at him, I will broadcast it on banners here.

I feel the same way as you, Gmum. I have always wanted kid to have siblings, but have always held back because I didn't think the X could cope. And now the thought that kid may have step-siblings from the OW just f@@@$ big time.

Yes, all these years of life packed into boxes. Just makes you feel so uprooted, doesn't it?

Gmum, is it possible to get your H to ship them to wherever your going? Or is there a way for you to stay in the US? Will your L help you with that?

Pho, I watched the whole series and I love Katniss for being such a kick- ass woman. And I loved the song as well.

(Spoiler alert)

But the good news is that Peeta eventually came around, didn't he? And he was the one who really loved Katniss. That happy ending made me bawl. And those 2 little kids at the end, don't even get me started on them.

I think my body is finally breaking down from the stress.

The weight loss, the hair loss, the dry and blistering lips. And now this itchy scaly patch behind the knees. Nothing like these to make me feel so attractive.

Will have to see a derm asap. Upcoming lunch with ex-fil is putting me on the edge. What is it? Tell me already!

Yes, impatience. Still working on not stomping my feet in frustration when things are not up to speed. As someone much younger once told me, 'Just chillax!'

Catching a horror movie with some gf later. Love horror movies! Yay! Problem is that my car may not be around when the X drops kid off.

So what is he going to do this time round? See more of the OW? Oh wait, he's already doing this. More last minute changes of plans? But to quote tl2, NMYNMM.

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I don't know if he can get over his anger and his issues, because it's still all about me. And his family thinks it's all my fault too.

As a mostly recovered 'anger addict' for a few years now, I can tell you that he will never get over the anger/issues until he realizes it's really all about himself. Because it is.

Best you can do is take good care of yourself and be there for the kid. Remember...he is not your sun and your life and well-being do not revolve around him. I think you're more OK than it sometimes feels to you.

I'm sending love, I know exactly how you feel. The thing is- maybe right now the ow is giving him his carefree life, but that can't and won't last.. He will be shattered out of that bubble, and $h*ts gonna get real.

Then what do they do?? I'm so angry with h today I can't stand to be in the same room, so my db-ing isn't going well.

Originally Posted By: tl2

As a mostly recovered 'anger addict' for a few years now, I can tell you that he will never get over the anger/issues until he realizes it's really all about himself. Because it is.

I realised that the 2nd outburst happened because we have never resolved the issues from his 1st outburst. We tried MC for a few times, couldnt find a C that we both liked, and I gave up and decided to just plod along.

Thanks Cherry! I do hope the bubble bursts soon enough and that sh!t will hit the ceiling fan soon! Christmas wish for this year!

Chin up, girl!

At least we can comfort each other!

Yes hopefully it will, so hard to see someone you love hurting you and just having a trail of destruction everywhere!!

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I realised that the 2nd outburst happened because we have never resolved the issues from his 1st outburst.

Yes this is how I see it unraveled in my M as well. In my case, my XW was clearly not committed to me or honoring our M (even before she cheated...assuming she wasn't cheating then as well, which she sure could've given the 3 OM I know about).

My role in the circus was to ignore her actions and believe her words because it was what I wanted to hear back then. But I didn't deal with the anger that caused in me. And she was dishonest and manipulative (always has been; I refused to see it back then).

In the end, though, I had to understand that the person I was really angry with...and which was the root cause...was myself for my denial.

The thing about angry people...they/we are really angry with themselves/ourselves for their own choices, and then the rejection, the being out of control, everything feeds back into that just like the inflow of a trop storm or hurricane.

Once that person comes to the point where they truly accept (and not just 'realize', believe, etc.) they are mainly angry at themselves, the inner storm starts breaking up. At least, that's how I experienced it.

We too plodded along. One thing though: I went to counseling and worked on the anger. I apologized to her. I told her I wanted things to be different. And I made them different from my side.

Nothing from hers really except more play acting and biding her time.

When the individual doesn't own his anger first, the couple can't progress. And it's tricky for the non-angry person because if you want the M, then you might even want to be encouraging to your spouse, but you don't want to be taken advantage of or manipulated, feel like you have to appease or walk on eggshells. The lack of stability is counter-productive to the M. That's why the angry person has to own it and calm his a-- down first

Like all life sitches...the anger can be solved by 1 person but it still takes 2 to make the marriage.

Just how I see it.

Wow, tl2, sounds like you've done a lot of thinking.

At this point in time, the X doesn't own anything- his anger, his issues, his part in the failure of the marriage. The OW, his family, they are enabling him in his self - contained bubble.

I can forsee that in the near future, or perhaps for the rest of his life, he will remain that way.

NMCMNN.

Met with the ex-fil.

Just realised that the X and the OW started 3 years back, just before my mini-MLC. Now everything makes sense.

He had already bailed out on the marriage. His 2nd outburst was caused by the POS TP/ OW. And to think that I was killing myself all these months.

Ah, nothing like a betrayal to shred your self-esteem to pieces. I feel so so numb by all the lies that have been spun... It feels that I have been living in an alternate reality.

It's like I keep waking up from nightmares only to realise that reality is worse than the nightmares. And that I can no longer distinguish the nightmares from reality.

Spoiler alert: Major rant ahead

What makes it even more painful is that it's the same old conversation:

No one in the family dares to tell the X what to do. I am strongly encouraged to wait patiently and put my life on hold for the A btw the X and the OW to run its course and oops if they decide to stay together.

He can see how the OW and the A would have contributed to the failure of the M, yet the onus is on me to stand for the M while the X binges at the dessert table. And oh yes, not to forget that I have not been as sweet and cheerful as the OW. And that kid's tantrums come from my side of the family.

Much as I still have feelings for the ex-fil, I am starting to feel very very weary of having to defend myself. He said that it takes 2 hands to clap in the M but I replied that with the TP in the picture, it's 3 hands.

Would the OW have tolerated what the X put me through? Would her late H have tolerated the type of R btw her and the X? What kind of platonic friend sleeps with a friend of the opposite sex? Oh, if that's not an A, then they are just F%%%_^;/ buddies? And what sort of woman goes in for the kill right after her H has just died? How am I supposed to feel better about all these?

Towards the end of the conversation, the ex-fil did seem to understand that once the divorce had gone through, the OW had won a big part of the war... Even if she just remained as FWB with the X, she and the X have already broken up our family.

And the hurt, did he even understand the hurt that kid and I are going through just so the POS/OW can have a bigger inheritance? That not only do I have to go through the pain of reneged on promises of what the X would financially provide, I still have to go through the pain of knowing that I am plan B?

OMG. Why do I put myself through this?

I'm so sorry for you. I wish I had something to say. Try and find something fun today to take your mind off this for a few minutes.

Be strong

Thanks, dday. This is one of the days where I just feel like curling up in bed and doing nothing.

I don't think I can face the X today. Will ask someone else for kid swop.

Grlonfir, yes the movie ended well. But it also could have gone the other way and been a happy ending too. IMO Gale is pretty hot. But the kids are already here so my choice has been made. I also decided during that movie that I want to learn to apply eyeliner the way Katness wore it in the movie. Sorry for the girly-girl talk to any guys on here. Seriously, she looked good. Although I am 46 so it might not have the same effect! My therapist this morning told me I that when H is around I look defeated and crushed in my body language. I need to toughen up, need to watch some more tough girl movies and get that girl on fire wardrobe. You seriously chose the best name for DB'ing.

And your situation [censored], sorry I don't have any advice. I am in an anti-spouse, anti-DB mood today, I just want to punch someone. Maybe after I eat these reese's peanut butter cups.

Grl,

I am really, really sorry. I've been there. When the curtains are drawn back to reveal not only the deception and lies, but the way they allowed the blame to have been explicitly or implicitly put on you for so long...and to let you suffer with that while they know the truth and keep it from you is some of the stiffest emotional/mental pain I've ever felt.

You will get past it. I did. Takes time, spending time with good supportive people, etc.

Originally Posted By: Grlonfr

And what sort of woman goes in for the kill right after her H has just died?

A broken one who's willing to hurt anyone to fill that void in her heart. Searching for another person to fix her instead of doing the work. I feel sorry for your H, its obvious everyone can see how much he still has feelings for you and yet hes going to continue to [censored] it up over that woman. You see it, he knows it, even FIL likely does also. I'm betting even TP knows the truth since shes trying to look/dress more like you.

Just live your life grlonfr, if he figures things out and comes back then you see where your at then.

Pho,

Gale is hot but I like his brother, Thor, more! That loreal ad worthy hair... And the real-life pics of him carrying his babies...

Hmmm. I didn't really notice her eyeliner but I do want her girl on fire wardrobe too. I am too lazy for eyeliner now so I went with the dummy alternative- lash extensions. Have you tried them? Way better than any eyeliner effect. I am so addicted that I haven't gone without them ever since I started. No makeup needed.

By this time, I really think that I am doing this for myself. I have to, for my sanity and for kid.

I also feel like punching someone(s). Tell me where and when. I'll fly over to join you.

Thanks, tl2.

I really really hate being lied to. I can handle the truth; I just hate being lied to.

I will get past this. I have to and I will.

I really really don't know if he has any feelings for me now, or if he ever had any for me? I have always wondered if he chose me because I was conveniently in his path? Come to think of it, I can't remember when was the last time he told me that he loved me.

But I will keep swimming, and be like Dory and only remember the good stuff.

Had the day off. Sent kid to school but had nice brekkie at starbucks before that. Cute guy who just checked me out previously was there with a girl. Oops. Cute guy seemed disappointed to see me with kid and hear her call me 'mummy'. Oh well. Managed to flash a smile at him though. Nice distraction while it lasted.

Came back, washed the bedlinen and then went for my hour- long walk. I psyched myself, chanting 'thigh gap, thigh gap, thigh gap'. When that stopped working, I switched to 'buns of steel, buns of steel, buns of steel'. Towards the end, I had to tell myself that even if I had to end up all alone in a nursing home, I will be that old lady with the gorgeous lashes and the buns of steel, even if there was no one else to appreciate them.

Had takeaway for lunch. Smiled at the server, had good service and extra big portions.

Well, well. I am still alive and breathing. I can do this.

Darn right you can do this, get past this. Not only that...You are doing it!

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I really really don't know if he has any feelings for me now, or if he ever had any for me? I have always wondered if he chose me because I was conveniently in his path?

How much does it help you to wonder about that now? What do you get out of doing so?

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Come to think of it, I can't remember when was the last time he told me that he loved me.

I do hope you don't allow XH's betrayal to define you, because it doesn't. It defines him.

What are you doing to see yourself clearly and make the choices that define who you are becoming now?

tl2, thanks for putting me to task. I guess pity party's over. It absolutely doesn't help me at all. Just either makes me want to crawl into a hole, or to borrow from pho, dig Xh's sized holes in the ground.

Yes, I mustn't let it define me. It is so hard to, since the X and the OW will be in my face for as long as I can imagine. Unless one of us changes job.

But guess what, just as I am typing this, I am hearing Beyonc� 's Irreplaceable. The Powers that Be must be dropping a big big hint.

I can finally understand the lure of a full-blown irreponsible MLC. To be so warped that nothing else but your needs matter, but I wouldn't want the crash back down to earth.

Ha. I would say...depends on who's in the hole with you!

Now...where's my shovel... You're going to be fine. You have that spirit.

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It is so hard to, since the X and the OW will be in my face for as long as I can imagine. Unless one of us changes job.

Maybe so. Maybe no. The future is unwritten. Live right now knowing that if you make good choices right now your future has the best possibility of being written with great things. If you do so, the future will take care of itself and you will have done your part to make it so.

I'm hearing AC/DC's Back in Black, but to each his own

Got your message loud and clear, tl2!

I will throw away my crystal ball. And I really wouldn't mind some platonic company in my corner of the earth... Dont worry about the shovel, I can provide one.

shovels..for foxholes and graves, eh!

a twitter account under your nick would make a good shovel

Grl, you are doing great. Yep, the higher powers are trying to talk to you. Just listen. God, or whatever you believe, tries to talk to our WAS/WS too, but they ignore it. Nothing new, they ignore anything that doesn't fit their plans.

Keep it up!

tl2, I could look into that. But have never really understood twitter though.

I'm looking at myself in the mirror and trying to figure out who I am, why I am who I am, and who I want to be.

I am not quite sure yet. I am treating me as someone I am starting to get reacquainted with after a long absence. I have seen how I can survive when I thought I couldn't.

I don't quite like how naive and emotional I can get. Passion has its uses but I must learn to manage it. Breathe and wait for things to happen. Stop the fight or flight response that I have had since childhood but have the courage to stay and make the changes that must be made.

And this is where I am hesitating. I know I cannot be so naive and trusting again but I know too that I can't go through life with a prickly armour. Have to find that balance somewhere.

I must learn that I am enough. For myself, for any other person that I may be with. I am not perfect. Not perfect is good enough. I am a work in progress. Work in progress is good enough. Even if I end up alone, I am enough.

This will be my mantra: I am enough.

And oh before I forget, retire the RBF and put on dolphin face more often.

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And this is where I am hesitating. I know I cannot be so naive and trusting again but I know too that I can't go through life with a prickly armour. Have to find that balance somewhere.

It is always a tricky balance, eh? If I ever even think about a new R with someone it's going to be a long, slow process. A lot of "trust, but verify"...and maybe even a little "verify, then trust"

Even despite my XW's lies, I had gotten to where I was willing to do what might work to build trust again. For me it actually took years...but that was because she had a long track record of lies. Of course we/I never got there, because she was never willing to do her part.

Will be a while before I think I will be able to trust someone new very much. A long while. But if I could get there with XW, I can probably get there with someone new someday...though that's so far off I can't see what that would look like.

In the meantime, I have work, kids, a couple hobbies and friends and family. Going to have to be enough for a while for me.

I'm sure you will get there.

Grl, I am looking up lash extensions. I am completely clueless with makeup.
Apparently about husbands too, lol.

For me, it would be 'verify, verify, and then verify some more'!

So true, despite all that had happened, and the lies that were told to me all these years, I was willing to do what it would take to rebuild the trust and the M. Ah, but our XS just aren't there yet, are they?

I admire your courage, tl2, and I really hope that I will get there someday, and sooner rather than later, because darn it, I really want one or two more babies before the biological clock stops ticking. And because, being the studious person that I am, I really want to start putting into use all that I have learnt. Just seems such a pity to let all these new tools and knowledge go to waste.

Pho, go try extensions! It's a whole new world out there!

Hey, don't be so hard on yourself! You're not that clueless. You have lasted at least 25 years in the marriage with rather interesting ILs. I didn't even make half of your record.

New thread: Still swimming and looking for dry land

I am so bad with links.

New link here: Still swimming and looking for dry land

Grlonfire so sorry to hear all this! What a monumental fool he's making of himself- you soon very like me. Those lash extensions are super cute. Get them done for you, treat yourself to some feel good clothes. You are worth it- and either he will realise that when the bubble bursts with he- but by that point, you may have moved on to a more worthy person.
Either way, I'm sure you are gonna get there, one day at a time. Listen to some feel good tracks. Gotta love pixie Lott's cry me out