Good morning. I have been posting a lot this week. Thank you for bearing with me, this week has been a very introspective time for me and I am learning a lot. I thought I'd start this thread with things I have learned. Please add if there is anything you have learned.
I have learned that the Affair and the ensuing months of spew was not about me at all, in any way. I have no responsibility for that.
I have learned that I can STFU and listen. And not react.
I do not have the need to be right.
I have learned to consult my plan, not my feelings.
I have learned that damage done in childhood can manifest in very dysfunctional ways as adults, even when it appears that the adult has "moved on", it is lurking and waiting to come out. I am using this lesson to try to really listen to my children and build resiliency in them, so they can be the best adults they can be.
I am a lot stronger than I ever thought possible.
I have learned not to dismiss my H's perspective as "crazy" (even when it is) because that is HIS perspective and very real to him. Facts don't matter when it comes to what someone is experiencing as their truth. It is ok to listen and to "understand" without agreeing. Not only is it ok, but it is loving and healthy.
It is ok and normal to feel sad, angry, lonely, heartbroken. Those feelings will not kill me and do not need to be avoided, medicated, hidden, run from. It is ok.
I have learned not to judge a person who is in crisis. No matter how badly they are behaving.
I am in the process of learning that I will be ok even if my marriage doesn't survive. I will still be lovable and capable of love and I will be ok.
I have also learned that it is very very hard for me to detach. I am working on that one.
I have learned that I cannot carry a tune or hit a note even after 3 months of singing lessons but I am having fun and doing it for the joy of it. I will let you all know when I go on tour! I have also learned that I needed an outlet, something fun, something just for me.
I also have learned that there are people out there who are kind, compassionate, loving friends, people who I will never meet in person, but who are capable of holding me up and caring for me better than I would have thought possible. I love you and I thank you all. If it weren't for this board, I am pretty sure I'd be divorced, on anti-depressants, and crying all of the time. (OK I am still crying a lot.) Thank you. There are so many good people out there. Thank you all.
Previous thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2623863#Post2623863
Thank you for posting this!
I know you don't know who I am (yet), but I'm unlurking to let you know that this is exactly what I needed to read today. My roller coaster emotions were spiraling downward and I needed a pick me up.
Thank you, and with that I'll slink back into the shadows.... :-p
Pho,
I had to read your post several times. I must say probably is the most inspirational post I have read in quite some time, especially the two parts concerning childhood damage and dismissing the H's perspective.
I spent far too long missing those two points that I may have irreparably damaged my on marriage's future. How I wish I had my eyes opened so long ago.
Right there with you on learning to detach. One minute I think I am doing really good, and the other it comes crashing down.
I second your point on the people on here. They really have helped me more than they will ever know. And yes, there are some who I wouldn't mind meeting if just to say hello.
You have really helped me in so many ways, Pho!
I have learned that just 'living' is not enough. I need to figure out what I want and take steps towards making those things happen. If I dont stand for me, nobody else will.
Great way to start your thread.
It really is a gift that we have been given.
You are a better person and getting better.Thevfuture can only be good.
Thank you for posting this!
I know you don't know who I am (yet), but I'm unlurking to let you know that this is exactly what I needed to read today. My roller coaster emotions were spiraling downward and I needed a pick me up.
Thank you, and with that I'll slink back into the shadows.... :-p
SciDad, don't lurk- come out and play! I'd love to hear your story.
A beautiful post Pho. I have learned I am not alone. It is difficult to see that while you are hanging so tightly to a rope that is no longer tied on the other end. I thank every one of you.
A couple more I thought of before I head out to run some errands....
I do MUCH better emotionally when I focus on myself than on H.
And for the newbies..... Snooping does not help. It does not make you feel better or give you real answers. If you find something, then you need to keep looking for more, if you do not find something, then you think you missed it and you need to keep snooping. Also whatever you do find you will not be able to get out of your head. Do not snoop.
Snooping does not help. It does not make you feel better or give you real answers. If you find something, then you need to keep looking for more, if you do not find something, then you think you missed it and you need to keep snooping. Also whatever you do find you will not be able to get out of your head. Do not snoop.
Truer words have not been spoken, and few words are harder to follow...
"Snooping does not help. It does not make you feel better or give you real answers. If you find something, then you need to keep looking for more, if you do not find something, then you think you missed it and you need to keep snooping. Also whatever you do find you will not be able to get out of your head. Do not snoop."
Man was that a tough lesson to learn.
I kept putting my hand on the hot stove. Over and over and . . .
Pho, I promise I will come out and play soon.
I can always use more friends - it's just tough to find private computer time. You'll understand better once I post and share my story.
Man was that a tough lesson to learn.
I kept putting my hand on the hot stove. Over and over and . . .
Right there with you, 2point0. That one took me a long time to learn and I burnt my hand too many times before I learned to pull it back!
At the height of it all I had so much stuff that I screenshot and saved I could have used it to wreck her career, even though it was an EA and if I was of the vindictive sort. I kept it all hidden because, in my mind, if she got crazy with the kids or something I would use it as a bargaining chip. And before anyone asks, even though what I found was just an EA, the info I had was enough to totally wreck her. Totally. But I realized something along the way, what good was it all? Why keep it? I realized that by keeping it, I was holding on to that anger and it was not allowing me to move past it. I have forgiven her for that - both to her face and in my heart. And, just as importantly, I have forgiven myself for my behavior. That one was tough.
I did the same thing Spiff. 100% PA with photos and comments to boot. It hurts and I try to avoid it as much as I do the plague. Sometimes curiosity gets the better of me like it did earlier this week. The pain is never worth it.
I am in a forgiving mood today. A conversation I had recently left me thinking more about my actions and faults in my M. I feel giving in and giving up is the likely next step. That may change tomorrow so for now I will do nothing.
Hi 2point0!
I am going to be quite honest. There are still some of the more damning things that I have hidden away and really don't know why I haven't gotten rid of everything. Someone once told me that by keeping that kind of stuff is setting up the marriage to fail if she does decide to come back - as in the trust still hasn't returned. Made sense to me. But, I don't know why I still have it. I don't want to go the bargaining chip way and I guess I held onto to it for so long because part of me tells me that she may really get nasty if she does go ahead with the divorce.
Guess that is no reason, eh? I would never hurt my W in any form and I realize that keeping that stuff - if she ever found it - would be the undoing. I haven't looked at it in months, and honestly forgot about it.
I am in a forgiving mood today. A conversation I had recently left me thinking more about my actions and faults in my M. I feel giving in and giving up is the likely next step. That may change tomorrow so for now I will do nothing.
I forgave my W months ago - but she thinks there are trust issues between us. I don't know how to get past that, any advice? Everyday I feel like giving up, but I think of my family - and my W - and how much I love them. And I continue to put one foot in front of the other and go another day. What other choice is there?
I wish I had some good advice. I have read a lot here and have followed several threads but I am not a vet by any means. You are hundreds of posts ahead of me already!
We say actions speak louder than words. I would wager that acting as if applies here. This sounds like something your W will have to figure out.
If there was some advice I would confidently give it would be what you have already said: put one foot in front of the other. Oh and do not look at that stuff!
You all have inspired me to throw away the receipts I have hidden away of H and OW's dinners and drinks and lunches. I have a ripped up credit card statement that H threw away and I fished out of the garbage (along with the pics of me and him that he ripped to shreds.) As of today they are all gone. What good will they do me? I don't look at them, and I'd have to tape them back together to read them, but why am I holding on to this stuff? These are from February. Maybe throwing them out will release some kind of energy or karma for me. A step in the right direction.
Another thing I have learned! That you become like the people you spend time with.
For so many waywards, they were spending time with friends going through a D at the time they "lost it." For me, if I wasn't on here with my DB friends, continually challenging me to do the right thing, the calm thing, the non-reactive thing, I probably would be divorced by now. You all are a good influence! I will make sure that I choose my company wisely in the future. I will pay attention to the company those close to me keep- not in a controlling way (well maybe a bit controlling with my kids) but in an aware way, so that I am not blindsided again. My eyes are wide open now.
Another thing I have learned! That you become like the people you spend time with.
Such a true statement! On so many levels, my W and I are so much alike. Someone brought that to her attention the other day and she didn't say anything. Oh well!
For so many waywards, they were spending time with friends going through a D at the time they "lost it." For me, if I wasn't on here with my DB friends, continually challenging me to do the right thing, the calm thing, the non-reactive thing, I probably would be divorced by now. You all are a good influence! I will make sure that I choose my company wisely in the future. I will pay attention to the company those close to me keep- not in a controlling way (well maybe a bit controlling with my kids) but in an aware way, so that I am not blindsided again. My eyes are wide open now.
I really wish I had listened when I was on here at the beginning. I naively thought (or was maybe scared) that advice from so many on here would hurt things, especially considering my W's past and mental state. One thing I learned about being aware so you won't be blindsided is to not make that a priority - in other words, don't allow those walls to be erected. We live -and love - the best when those walls are down. Believe me, I learned the hard way. As with you, my eyes are wide open to. Hyper aware, you know?
Spiff, I wish I was on here in the beginning too. I trusted the advice here when I found this board, because I was already 4 months into it and wasn't getting help anywhere else. My eyes are wide open now in the sense that lets say H and I reconcile, and a few years from now suddenly H's brother or good friend is calling him every day for support with his divorce. I will not naively assume that this will not affect H. Not that I could or would tell H who to talk to, but I would be aware he might need a counterbalance to this, such as setting up double dates with another couple, or going on a trip, or going in for a MC session. Same as if your friends are all into exercising and eating well, you are more likely to get fit. If your friends are gossipy, you are more likely to gossip. I think we absorb more from other people than we realize.
And Spiff, we are mid atlantic and we float too.
Ahoy, Pho!
Mid-Atlantic, eh? Spent the last duty station in MD. W is going to FL so you can figure out we are pretty close to there (only roughly two or so hours away). If you don't mind me asking, is he medical?
I will not naively assume that this will not affect H. Not that I could or would tell H who to talk to, but I would be aware he might need a counterbalance to this, such as setting up double dates with another couple, or going on a trip, or going in for a MC session.
Once again, that is awesome. Your advice is spot-on and helps me out a lot!
Pho
I really like this thread. I need to sit down later and add.
Don't we all wish we stumbled here the day of BD or months before!
Ahoy, Pho!
Mid-Atlantic, eh? Spent the last duty station in MD. W is going to FL so you can figure out we are pretty close to there (only roughly two or so hours away). If you don't mind me asking, is he medical?
I will not naively assume that this will not affect H. Not that I could or would tell H who to talk to, but I would be aware he might need a counterbalance to this, such as setting up double dates with another couple, or going on a trip, or going in for a MC session.
Once again, that is awesome. Your advice is spot-on and helps me out a lot!
No, not medical! He is in a very unique situation and moves between locations though so I can't give hints or I will be outed.
I am glad my advice is helping you. I am hoping I am figuring things out before its too late for me, I still have a lot of hope but it could go either way. I'll be a really good partner for my next H though!
O, if we had stumbled on this pre-BD would we have really given it proper attention? I think sadly we needed the BD as a wake up call. We weren't paying attention to our own lives. Or maybe we just took things for granted. Not that we deserved any of this, of course. Up until the actual BD, even literally 5 minutes before BD, I would have bet my life that H would NEVER do this to me.
I'll be a really good partner for my next H though!
Ain't that the truth?
Sidestepping - It is good to read many on here that have an opportunity to find this early enough and some even with S @ home. How I wish. Detaching is a roadblock for me so maybe my sitch is better suited for my issues anyhow.
PS: I just figured out how to quote
O, if we had stumbled on this pre-BD would we have really given it proper attention? I think sadly we needed the BD as a wake up call. We weren't paying attention to our own lives. Or maybe we just took things for granted. Not that we deserved any of this, of course. Up until the actual BD, even literally 5 minutes before BD, I would have bet my life that H would NEVER do this to me.
Agreed. I remember thinking a few weeks before I asked my H to leave if maybe I should come on here and just check things out. But I was 100% sure the M was dead, so instead I asked him to move out...
I'll be a really good partner for my next H though!
Ain't that the truth?
Sidestepping - It is good to read many on here that have an opportunity to find this early enough and some even with S @ home. How I wish. Detaching is a roadblock for me so maybe my sitch is better suited for my issues anyhow.
PS: I just figured out how to quote
Good job on the quoting 2.0! It took me forever to figure that out. The problem with the next partner is that I would only want another DB'er. Imagine going through this whole journey, working on yourself, going through hell, and then you end up with a smooth-talking wayward again. I figure the people left for me to date will either be waywards, LBS's who haven't done "the work" and are probably emotionally wrecked from the experience, or DB'ers who are emotionally grown up now. The problem is they will all come across as charming until you really get to know them, and that might be when they walk out again on their next spouse.
We should have a secret handshake or something so when we get out in the dating world we know who we can trust!
dont let a couple of people on hear get out one night and get a DB tattoo after one too many cocktails!
dont let a couple of people on hear get out one night and get a DB tattoo after one too many cocktails!
How funny would that be? I actually did go out and get a tattoo after BD. I am the last person in the world that you would think would get a tattoo, but now I am thinking of another one. Not a DB one though!
Pho,
No worries. Wasn't going to ask any further than that. If it were medical then the world would have shrunk immensly cause you are well aware of how small that community is! As it is, I imagine if you spent any amount of time on east coast then it's probably a safe bet that bases have overlapped!
Pho what tattoo did you get??
Pho what tattoo did you get??
Jpeg, I got H's head on a stake. It was very satisfying!
Just kidding, I got a small outline of a dove on the back of my shoulder. My only regret is that it is on my back so I can't see it. But it looks cute with a bathing suit. I am thinking of getting something small on my forearm. Not sure what though.
Pho you are hilarious!!!
My two girls have each gotten one. D19 got a very pretty script letter J with a 7. My first name starts with J all of the kids (and H) have middle name that starts with J. She wanted to unify the family. D 18 got the sentence "This too shall pass"
I have always said I never would get one, but I have started to think about it. Any ideas??
Jpeg, I never wanted one, never even crossed my mind. Shortly after BD when I thought I was going to drop dead from the pain, maybe 2 weeks in, I was driving through the "seedy" part of town and I passed the tattoo place and out of the blue it just hit me so strong that I needed a little dove for "peace" and "new beginnings" on my shoulder. I went in, they didn't take credit cards, so I ran home and raided my daughter's babysitting money jar and went back and did it.
I didn't tell H and it was more than 3 months later when he saw it (because he was sleeping on the couch), and he was shocked. H hates tattoos on women. That has nothing to do with why I did it though, but makes me like it even more.
I like the handshake idea. I can picture it already - if the other person is "in" then instant connection and if not then at least a memorable first greeting!
The idea of a tattoo has crossed my mind here and there. I think there are alot of good phrases and sayings found in this forum alone for a decent one.
An evening on my own with a glass of wine - I'm trying not to let thoughts get out of hand so this will be a good distraction. To tattoo or not . . . and if so what and where?
Well 2point0 did you come up with any good tattoo ideas??
Oh, here is another one I learned:
You can go a really long time without having sex.
When my twin and I were going to get infinity symbols with each other's birth time I learned a trick. Draw what you want with a sharpie marker/pen and spray it with hairspray. It will stay for weeks. I decided I really liked the tattoo and the placement. Now I am ready to go get it. I just need to convince her
Pho - You can go a really long time without sex, I learned that too. BUT man does it SUCK!!
Thanks Ep, I am going to try it!
I have learned not to talk about the R, and I also learned that as much as I know this I can still screw up and talk about the R, in which case I WILL regret it.
Feeling hopeless after last nights talk. I "lost it" and cried, H asked what was wrong, I told him my heart was broken and I just wanted to work together to fix the relationship already, I am exhausted and I am sad and I want to move forward. He told me he has come to the conclusion that I have borderline personality disorder and that he has 25 years of rage and resentment to work through because of my treatment towards him. OK. Wish I had cried in the bathroom quietly and came out when my eyes were dried as I usually do, didn't need to hear that. At least he said it in a calm manner.
I couldn't really validate that, but I did listen, reacted more than I should have but didn't get out of control, said I am sorry that I hadn't been listening to him and respecting his viewpoint all along, I am sure I don't have BPD but I am open to the possibility that some of our dynamics and communication skills might have some similarities to what he is reading about, and I am open to listening and thinking about it for the sake of our relationship.
He reiterated that he does not love me. He said he cares, he is attracted to me, he has "some" empathy, but he does not trust me and cannot talk to me. I thanked him for sharing and for letting me know where I stand.
I am being "set up" to be blamed for everything. I see the writing on the wall. He has his theory to use against me, so that I will be the scapegoat and he can walk away feeling like the victim.
I am trying to act on my plan and not my emotions. My mind is blown. Almost a year into this. My mind is completely blown.
I just googled BPD and its not even close. The only symptom that describes me is intense emotional reactions, and the only time I have those is when fighting with H in response to HIS intense reactions, and I have learned since BD to stop those. Not one of the other symptoms is even close to describing me!
oh Pho - I am so sorry honey. When does he leave for 6 months? I truly think that time will be so good for you and hopefully stress free. You can be yourself without shame. I just wanted to offer my support. I don't really have any advice right now.
Ep, he leaves in January. Right after the holiday. On the bright side, this is helping me detach. The "crazy" thing is the book he is reading is a book I read years ago trying to find help for dealing with his mother. He refused to read it then, now he is reading it and applying it all to me. Also on the bright side he apologized for the affair and the months of spew. That is huge. But he said he is still angry and not over the 25 years of BPD tactics I put him through over the last 25 years.
I know you all don't "know" me and I could write anything and portray myself any way I want on this forum, but I swear I am not BPD. I am/was reactive. I did have a very hard time listening to H without escalating into an argument. I did use emotional language and cry easily. I have stable friendships and family relationships, never abused substances (maybe a little too much vodka in college, but just for the first 3 semesters, then I cracked down and studied and earned a 4.0 GPA nearly every semester), I am not a thrill seeker or a drama seeker, I am a very quiet homebody person, kind of introverted, content to be home with my kids and friends and the quiet life. I am not what he says. Yes, I am reactive. I am praying that he is picking up on some of my reactive qualities and running a little crazy with this as a theory and will come to realize that is all it is. But we are almost a year into this. He should be further along his "path of enlightenment", still so far off the mark.
I will not react. But I am really starting to doubt the sanity of staying with someone who repeatedly tells me that he does not love me. I asked him if he is still attracted to me "I am VERY attracted to you." That is something at least.
In other news, SIL is not going to the IL's for Thanksgiving. I heard some undercurrents of drama there (I am out of the loop, thank God, but I catch little bits, not enough to fill in the blanks but after so many years I know the dynamics.) BIL will be there alone. (IL's do not like SIL and they all avoid each other as best as possible.) I am wondering if I should just let H take my kids and I can go to a friends. That would be a huge 180. Would that be making too much of a statement? My concern is that the conversation would be all about me in front of my children, and my absence would appear to all extended family as though we are really separated which is what FIL and MIL has been pushing for, and also being there gives me a chance to plaster a smile on my face and demonstrate the epitome of grace and patience and family togetherness.
I am not sure what to do. I am one big step closer to detachment.
Pho,
I could've written this post myself. My stbx filled the script on me: I had bipolar, he had assigned 30 years of rage against me (yet we were only together for 10), he was attracted to me BUT didn't love me and would "never allow himself to open his heart to me because of all the damage and abuse I put him through."
Pho, I'm not a professional, I don't know what you're going through - I'm only armchair psychology here. But my healthy guess is that he's projecting everything that he feels onto you. That's what my stbx did, he didn't want to accept that he was ill, so I became the one who was ill. He didn't want to look at the issues of his foo, so it was on me.
I've heard almost word for word what you've heard, and it damn near killed me. The last year of my life almost killed me. I became a shadow of myself. I nearly lost my job, my health, everything. I understand that you love your husband, I do, dear heart. But saving your marriage at the expense of yourself, is not worth it. I may have the unpopular opinion here, but that's my own opinion. I know you want your family together, I know you're standing tall, but you can't do it if you have to sacrifice yourself. There's a big difference between becoming a better person and falling on a grenade.
I will share with you, what my stbx shared with me a few weeks ago. And it's really helped me. He told me that while I was hurting now, that one day I was going to be better off, and that I would thank him. Of course I was like, "erg is this bullshit!?!? This is a cop out, script, etc."
And then he told me his thoughts. He has a difficult form of mental illness that he hasn't yet been able to get under control. He is volatile, and unsafe. Even when he (hopefully) one day will be stable, the chance that he will derail (for a lack of better words) is there, not an if, but rather when. His mother is ill and will never seek help, she will always get worse. His dad will always look the other way because he's too afraid to see what the reality is (mentally ill, alcoholic, drug addict wife destroyed their family, his own sons are now destroying their respective families). His family will never support me (in fact, are incomplete denial of his illness and did not help me at all when he first was sick and needed help) and won't support him in healthy ways. STBX told me that he knew I would follow him to the ends of the earth, and that I would sacrifice myself for a relationship and for him because of my vows and my love for him. And he wasn't going to let me do it. He point blank said, "Calibri, you will never feel secure, you will always be walking on egg shells with me, even if I get stable. You'll always be waiting for the other shoe to drop. And what kind of life is that? A life of cleaning up messes, of monitoring me to make sure I'm taking my meds. Of turning the other cheek with my parents and their abuse? Of weathering a storm with the hopes that's you'll see glimpses of the man you married once in awhile?" He told me, "you are a strong, beautiful, phenomenal woman who deserves everything in life. And right now, I can't give that to you."
It hurt like a bitch.
But it was absolutely the truth. I would be on pins and needles my whole life, waiting for the meds to stop working. I would be cleaning up messes. I would be suffering nastiness from his mother - because I loved him. But the truth is, he's no longer the person I married. And while I would've gone to hell and back, it would've been at my expense, and the payout, for a lack of better words - wouldn't be there.
Sweet Pho, I admire your strength and courage. I admire your determination. My question to you is this: say H gets his [censored] together. Say he gets "better" - then what? Are you going to be able to put this all behind you? Will you be able to trust that he's openly and honestly communicating with you and not your MIL? Will you be waiting for the other shoe to drop? H may get better. But it's my understanding that things like this can come back, and worse.
There's a lot of unknown here. But Pho, you have to save yourself. Let H go out to sea, and sink if he needs to. Let him go. For you, for your children, for your sanity.
Let him go. Whatever that may look like.
Pho- I love this. Thank you for sharing!
Calibri, thank you. H just asked me to go to lunch with him. I did, and it was ok. Not great, not tense, quiet though. On the car ride home he told me that he did not think I had BPD, but I had some of the traits. I told him that I read a little this morning and I have reactivity and that is all, but that is something I have made huge strides with and will continue to work on. He told me he was sorry for all the spew. He called it "Yelling at you a few months ago." He said he has been thinking about that more and more lately and he is feeling a lot of remorse about it. (It was extremely bad.)
He said he doesn't know how we can just move on, he will "keep trying" but he doesn't know how that will work. Calibri, he used the exact line your STBX used about "never being able to open his heart because of all the abuse and damage".
And yes, Calibri, I am concerned that even if we do "fix this" that he will crash again in a year or five years, or whenever, and by then I could be well on my way to a new life which might really be my better option. I don't know what to think.
I am not sure if all this talk is leading up to a "good bye" and he is wrapping up loose ends, or if it the start of him opening up to me and breaking his silence and asking to be understood. I will do my best to be a safe place, to listen, to be kind, to not react. There is definitely a shift in his energy and I am not sure what that means.
I will be ok either way. I am hoping this means I will be out of limbo in the near future, whichever way things happen.
OH! And another development. In the last week I have noticed that H is backing me up with the kids and insisting that they be more respectful to me. Little things, like we have a lot of leaves to rake and H will send the kids out to rake, and if they call for me, H will say "Mom always does most of the raking every year, this year the kids do it and Mom gets a break. " Or if a child whines or starts to defy me H will step in right away and say "Do NOT talk to your mother that way." He has NEVER done this before. I mentioned before that every week after H has IC I can pretty much tell you what the IC advised him, because every single week there is a new behavior. I would bet money that she advised him on this one last week, and this week's issue is speaking his feelings no matter how awful they may be.
So this could be a positive thing, if it is just the beginning of H "learning how to talk" and not his final thoughts on our situation. I am going to not react and wait and let it play out. I will watch my reactions extra carefully. I will use my knowledge of his awful perspective on me to help me detach. I do not want to be married to someone who thinks I am an abuser. Really, I don't.
I should print out my first post of "things that I have learned" because when I deviate I get in trouble.
OMG my head is going to explode. My boys keep losing/breaking their glasses. My neighbor's kid keeps coming in to my house and moving my chairs around. This dog pees everywhere. I am depressed, distracted, anxious. I just want to crawl into a hole and cry and sleep for the next 6 months and then come out and find out if my H is going to work with me or leave me. This is hell.
I know, GAL. I cut back on GAL because I was exhausted. I don't want to do this anymore. I have a delicious bolognese sauce cooking on the stove, the house smells so good. My kids all have friends over and are happy. H is soaking in our jacuzzi. I am on here, thinking about my sitch, sad about my sitch, can't let go mentally.
I am re-evaluating my GAL for when H leaves. I can leave my kids home alone for a couple of hours, but can't really be having late nights or leaving them frequently or they fight and their friends come over and eat all my food.
I am going to look earnestly for a part time job (ideally) or work from home position. I am going to continue with my voice lessons and try to teach myself guitar. I am in a dinner group that meets weekly, and I have a church service weekly. I walk 3 miles every morning, maybe I should add more physical activity. I regularly meet with friends for lunch or to shop at thrift shops (my idea of fun.)
I really want to date. How terrible is that? I want to date my H, desperately, but if he is not interested or available I want to date. I know that isn't right, and I know that isn't good for me (or my marriage- lol!) .
I have two new divorced friends, women who are not interested in dating (totally over men, I don't know their stories, but I am sure I can figure it out) , so maybe I can go out with them? I feel like I don't really fit in with the married crowd, don't fit in with the divorced and moving on crowd, so maybe the divorced and not dating friends will be a good fit? I looked at meet-up.com for a separated group, but even when he is gone we are really not technically separated, not legally and we are both claiming we are still working on it. I need a DB meetup group! Couldn't find one online.
I am probably overthinking it, the truth is I will be alone with 3 children, probably have limited opportunities to go out at night so I will just take any invitations I get that work out. I will be lucky if its 1-2x per month, can't be too picky, I'll just do what works at the time.
I am tormenting myself. I should just learn how to live in the moment and be ok. That is the key right now for me. I need to just be ok. Maybe there is a good tv series I can immerse myself in? Watch an episode a night after the kids go to bed? Something distracting. Maybe I can set up a treadmill in front of it and combine it with physical activity. OK, there are possibilities. I am working this out. Gotta get myself focused on me. Gotta be ok during the uncertainty. Gotta follow my own advice.
And then there is the thought that this is all just a nightmare and I am going to wake up. That would be nice.
Pho, sorry you too are having a rough weekend. I sincerely wish that this was a bad dream. Wouldn't it be great to have bettered ourselves and wake up to our loving spouses?
Then again, I probably have better odds with the lottery...
Good luck pho
Pho, I totally relate to you regarding the limbo situation, but what I read and hear is someone really hurt. What good does this do to you? My H is with OW, cold, cruel, rude but won't file for D (there is also no legal paper indicating separation) still have his mail delivered here, and comes and goes as he pleases him! I can't no longer bear it, so I told myself that he is dead! Which in fact he is (I mean the man I married), and I say to myself shall I put my life on hold because I'm a widow! The answer is NO.
I know it's hard to detach but you have to for your own sanity. What good would you be for your kids if their mum breaks down? You are amazing and it breaks my heart to see you like that. Please look after yourself! x
Rouky, I know this is the most disrespectful thing to say and probably I should go to confession, but it would be so much easier if he died. And you have a good point, the man I married is dead, I do not know who this guy is. I do see glimpses though, but he's buried deep.
My IC said the same thing as you about the hurt.
I am sorry you are in limbo too. It is so hard. I will be ok. I am going through a huge "down" been 2 solid weeks already. This is the biggest "down" since May. I think I need it on some level, my brain needs to work through some issues before I can move on to the next step. Either that or I need antidepressants.
Hi Pho! Hope you had a good weekend!
So this could be a positive thing, if it is just the beginning of H "learning how to talk" and not his final thoughts on our situation. I am going to not react and wait and let it play out. I will watch my reactions extra carefully. I will use my knowledge of his awful perspective on me to help me detach. I do not want to be married to someone who thinks I am an abuser. Really, I don't.
From what you have posted, I think that it is as you thing - learning to talk, so to speak. I am not trying to pump sunshine, but I look at it this way - if he really was on his way out, why would he defend you?
Also, I don't think that he thinks you are an abuser. I say this because, to me, this is where perspective plays in. I could be an expert on that with the way my W is acting.
I say keep up what you are doing but temper the expectations. You got this!
Thank you Spiff. I appreciate your positive outlook, I am torn between feeling positive and negative. If he really believed I was so abusive that I could damage a grown man with my abusive ways, would he be leaving his 3 children in my exclusive care for 6 months?
Also, here is an interesting one. H has spent his every free moment in the last week changing our light switches. The actual wall switches, to new and improved toggle switches, some two way, one three way, all on dimmers, all labeled. If he was on his way out would he be even thinking of this? I could understand if it was house maintenance, to get the house functioning better for his kids or for real estate value. But fancy light switches? And last weekend he put in recessed lighting in our master closet.
I think, for me, the key is to show him that I am moving forward. Hard to do while he is gone, but then again that might make it easier because I can "act" it during phone calls, texts, etc, instead of living it day in day out. I want him to think he can lose me. Because actually he can. Not what I want, but after 10 months and enough spew I think anybody would start to feel like maybe its not worth it anymore.
This morning I applied for 2 part-time jobs. Either would be a good fit as they are in my field and $ is decent, and one is 20 hours per week, the other 25-30, so I could do either without being overwhelmed or needing to hire out childcare arrangements.
Another thing I was thinking. My neighbor is separated. I am thinking about asking her while H is gone if we can rotate Saturday evenings- I will watch her kids one week, she watches my boys the next- so we can go out and have a little free time. I don't even really want to go out, to be honest, I am a homebody and my ideal Saturday night is cuddling on the sofa with my boys watching movies (although they pick the worst movies) , but it would be really good for H to call and find out I am out on a Saturday night. I would enjoy seeing live bands, maybe at local bars or even a real concert once or twice a month. I did find a meetup group that would fulfill this purpose, or I think I mentioned earlier that I have 2 new friends who are divorced women who might like to go out sometimes for a girls night. I am liking this plan.
You know something, Pho, I think you may be on to something. He sure does seem to be doing a lot of stuff that any normal person wouldn't do if they were on the way out, so to speak.
That is awesome on the job front! Will do you a world of good as it will give you something to do and keep your mind off of things, ya know? As for me, my company is really getting rid of a lot a people. Was told that maybe by the new year wouldn't be here. Great. Just another super stressful thing. Not sure if I should mention that to the W as I am sure if she does file she will try to use it against me.
I think that is an excellent plan. Let him wonder for a bit. Dang sure couldn't hurt, eh? It may be just me, but hanging out with two divorced people may blur things for you - kind of like how we discussed influences on our spouses, no?
Spiff, yes, spending time with divorced friends might influence me. But most of my friends are happily married and then I feel like I either have to pretend everything is ok, or else I feel like a downer. They have been incredibly supportive of me, although they only know a fraction of what has been going on. I think my best strategy is to spend time with whoever is available and interested in the same things as I am, and not share that much about my issues. Basics ok, but not details.
I am a little slow on the uptake here, but it just really crossed my mind that I might be better off without H. Really, what am I holding on so tightly for? If he doesn't want me, he should go. That is starting to sink in.
I am a little slow on the uptake here, but it just really crossed my mind that I might be better off without H. Really, what am I holding on so tightly for? If he doesn't want me, he should go. That is starting to sink in.
WANTING to be with your H is very different than NEEDING to be with him. That, to me at least, is how I define detachment.
Intellectually I am there. Realistically I'm miles away
I am a little slow on the uptake here, but it just really crossed my mind that I might be better off without H. Really, what am I holding on so tightly for? If he doesn't want me, he should go. That is starting to sink in.
WANTING to be with your H is very different than NEEDING to be with him. That, to me at least, is how I define detachment.
Intellectually I am there. Realistically I'm miles away
SciDad, I am still miles away too, because I know my H loved me for so many years. I know he did. I still think he might, but its buried deep. But I can't wait forever for him to figure it out. I am starting to think in terms of a timeframe/deadline. I don't want to do that. Right after BD I thought my birthday would be my deadline. That was 4 months. Well that came and went, then I thought the end of summer. Here we are in November. Now I am thinking one year anniversary of BD, but H will be away for 6 months, so maybe when/if he returns. At some point I have to be loved again or find it somewhere else. And then I feel selfish, like I am letting my kids down. But at that point it will be 18 months and I think that is more than fair.
But things have been improving, so what if they continue to improve but are still not where I want them to be? At what point do I decide that its enough. I guess I should take that thought off the table for now, because I am not there yet.
Hi Pho!
But things have been improving, so what if they continue to improve but are still not where I want them to be? At what point do I decide that its enough. I guess I should take that thought off the table for now, because I am not there yet.
That drastically complicates things, no? It's a long, long process that doesn't happen overnight. My good friend and his wife were in the same boat and she told me it took her two years to love him again. TWO YEARS. Can you do that amount of time? I would like to think I would be able to say here is the time frame, but honestly, I couldn't do that. Whatever it takes is my saying...
I agree that it's a long process and from where I stand you have a chance. You still have hope and your H seems to show little steps. I know it's hard to be patient. If you are meant to be together you will. Your H needs to go on his journey like you with yours. Do what makes you happy, then I think everything else will fall in place :-)
Thanks Rouky. I am trying. Detachment is so hard. I feel like I just can't shake this heartbreak. I will be out doing something fun, playing with the kids, etc, and it is just there like a cloud over my head.
I have been realizing that music is so helpful. I can immerse myself in singing, dancing, being silly with music and that is one of the only things that gets my mind off things.
I have been so strong, but there is only so much a person can take. Is it my imagination or is it about the 1 year mark where the LBS kind of starts to really move forward? I don't know if I noticed that trend or if I made it up, but that's what I've been telling myself.
I can only validate your heartbreak Pho. I'm like you, and I don't know how to deal with it. I guess time is really a healer. If you look back at the beginning of DB, are you still the same person. My IC told me that affair provokes devastation in our heart, so it might take a while before it goes away. I love my H very much, but he isn't showing any sign of coming back, so I have to tell myself that i will always love him, it's not reciprocal and that there is someone out there for me!
Hi pho,
Lately I have thought that I obsess about my sit every waking hour. But once I stopped to think about it, I realized that when I go out and dance on Friday nights, I am not obsessed. I did not even realize I was getting a break. Try to find the activities in your life that offer you a temp break and do more of those. Then you can more easily make the decision to choose to save your M, instead if you feeling you HAVE to save it.
Pho, I feel the same way: it would be so much easier if he had died instead of leaving me. Not uncommon to feel that way. Hope everyone realizes m not trying to make light of the people who acfually become widows/widowers.
Also, I still often dream that we work it out. So devastating when I realize it was just a dream
No wise words here, just wanted to let you know that I can relate.
You said "But things have been improving, so what if they continue to improve but are still not where I want them to be? At what point do I decide that its enough."
My answer to the question "How do I know when to choose to divorce?" is simple and straight forward. I will choose to divorce when the pain of staying is greater then the pain of leaving.
You said "I have been realizing that music is so helpful. I can immerse myself in singing, dancing, being silly with music and that is one of the only things that gets my mind off things."
Music is an incredible thing. When you listen to music you must stay in the present moment.You can not dwell in the past. You cannot go ahead. You are in the here and now. Very cool indeed.
I hope this post finds you well pho. Be well
I find that music helps as well however certain songs can be a trigger for memories special memories
If you stay away from these then you can loose yourself and it will help
I read what mutatio said about when to know if to divorce I think I am fairly close to this point of wanting and needing to make the decision for myself to start the divorce process.
Hi, Pho! Hang in there, we are all here for you! I am going to say this and it may sound funny, but I am envious of your position. From what you have been telling, it seems that progress is being made. I would give anything for that. Anything.
Detachment is so hard. I feel like I just can't shake this heartbreak. I will be out doing something fun, playing with the kids, etc, and it is just there like a cloud over my head.
I am right there with you. This is by far the hardest thing I have ever done in my life. I set myself up so many times for false hope when what I thought I saw was a light but was actually a train. That cloud has completely enveloped my head.
I have been so strong, but there is only so much a person can take. Is it my imagination or is it about the 1 year mark where the LBS kind of starts to really move forward? I don't know if I noticed that trend or if I made it up, but that's what I've been telling myself.
You have been very strong, and I also envy you about that. There is only so much a person can take. I think the question is, what is our breaking point? I think on that quite often - about how when my W does her crazy stuff or goes off or completely stomps on my heart, that I am just ready to hang it up. Sometimes I am on the brink but a question always pulls me back - what if she really is trying and I throw it all away? What if this is nothing more than her projecting and I am completely misreading (done that many many times) her? One of the things that scares me the most is relevant to those questions - given my W's past and how it has shaped her, what if she really wants to try but doesn't know how and is looking for a candle to also guide her? I think this may be partially correct given some of the things she has said. All that is why I just don't say **ck it and lets be done...whenever I am ready to cross that line, those always pull be me back into my own little corner of h*ll.
We are here for you, Pho. You have been more of an inspiration than you will ever know.
Spiff, I think all of those same thoughts, exactly, and then I think "what if he really doesn't love me, really does believe I am an abuser, really will be happier without me and I am just clinging to him." But then there is the upcoming job, he will have freedom, I will not call him, I will not pursue. It will be in his hands. I will continue to validate and be kind and if that is not enough for him, well, that's the best I have, so I guess it will be over.
Pho,
I think all of those same thoughts, exactly, and then I think "what if he really doesn't love me, really does believe I am an abuser, really will be happier without me and I am just clinging to him." But then there is the upcoming job, he will have freedom, I will not call him, I will not pursue. It will be in his hands. I will continue to validate and be kind and if that is not enough for him, well, that's the best I have, so I guess it will be over.
I, too, think the opposite thoughts. Its a tug of war inside that I don't know how to stop. I have a serious question about this upcoming freedom - as we are in the same boat - since they won't be near us and completely separated/cut-off and all, just how are we (you and your H; me and my W) supposed to work on us and grow our marriage if there is no contact? How are we supposed to "work on us" if there isn't contact? How are we supposed to work on us by not actually doing anything other than seeing if we miss that person? Sorry for the little mini-rant...
The healthy man does not torture others. Generally, it is the tortured who turn into torturers.— Carl Jung
pho, he is also struggling. Enjoy the holidays with your family and spend the 6 months apart examining your heart. The truth will reveal itself.
Another thought while I am busy obsessing over my H. One of H's biggest "issues" when he "lost it" was that he felt disconnected from his father. So since BD he has been talking to his father every day, seems like they have a constant ongoing text conversation.
Now at what point is he going to make the realization that he has his own 2 sons who have practically zero relationship with him? At most he spends 5 minutes a day with them. Some days less.
Also my H is a workaholic, just like his father. Literally, working easily 14+ hours per day every day, including weekends. Well, yesterday I had a talk with my 12 year old. For the past 2 years my son has been "running a company" - he pretty much talks about his company every day, hires kids at recess to work for him, gets into regular labor disputes with them and then he has to fire someone, has the kids over regularly for "business meetings" and even one "all hands meeting" (which involved re-enacting scenes from the Hunger Games, lol.) Yesterday my son told me that he cannot stop thinking about his company, it keeps him up at night, he is worried that they are not making any profits and nobody has done any actual work in months. (OMG, this kid cracks me up.)
Suddenly a lightbulb went off in my head, that this is a lot more than imaginative play. This is a mini-H in the making. Is he going to crack up in his 40's when life gets tough and he realizes he doesn't have a relationship with his father and all he has is work? How can I prevent this from happening? I have plenty of non-workaholic males on my side of the family but they don't live near us, I want to find him a role model. And my younger son, his personality is a lot more like mine, and he seems very resilient, but still, he needs a father.
If we do divorce, and he gets every other weekend with the boys (he would not get our D, they do not want anything to do with each other) , maybe it would improve his relationship with them. He'd actually spend more time with them. It might be a blessing in disguise. Or he might ignore them those weekends like he does now. But it makes me wonder.
Pho, I am rolling at your description of your son's "company." Needed that laugh today!
Competent role models are very hard to find. I do hope that your H steps up to the plate in that department. While there are others who can, but not in kids' eyes...
he would not get our D, they do not want anything to do with each other)
If you don't mind me asking, why is this? How old is she compared to ya'lls sons? I just find that troubling for some reason. Sorry if I made you feel uncomfortable with that. Just wondered why. And you may be right, the upcoming TAD may be a blessing. I certainly hope so.
Pho, I am rolling at your description of your son's "company." Needed that laugh today!
Competent role models are very hard to find. I do hope that your H steps up to the plate in that department. While there are others who can, but not in kids' eyes...
he would not get our D, they do not want anything to do with each other)
If you don't mind me asking, why is this? How old is she compared to ya'lls sons? I just find that troubling for some reason. Sorry if I made you feel uncomfortable with that. Just wondered why. And you may be right, the upcoming TAD may be a blessing. I certainly hope so.
Spiff, if you saw my S in action you'd really laugh. He will come home every day with updates "X quit, I have to hire a new marketing manager, I need to have A and B over today to work out some programming issues. " And this is all made up! He does have a web page but that is it! I think they are supposed to be making video games or movies, it keeps changing. At one point he had 25 employees, kids were showing up at my door to apply for positions, or discuss "business." It is really funny.
About my d. She is 14. This is a complicated situation. She has always been a tough kid, always hard on H. She has ocd and sensory issues, his face, his voice, his mannerisms set her off. She rages at him, and is really really nasty. She does this to me too, but 100% to him. She hit rock bottom last year, around this time, that is when H hit rock bottom too. He said he was moving out because of her. She was becoming physically abusive. He couldn't take it. In Jan/Feb of last year they were both threatening suicide, both completely went over the edge at the same time. (This was when H called his parents for help and they told him it was all my fault, and he decided to believe them. Downhill from there.) Anyway, D is doing much much better now, last spring she was in a hospitalization program for 3 months, they helped her so much, she is back in school, she is functioning, she is sleeping (she had major sleeping issues her whole life) she is eating, no more self mutilation, no more screaming fits (although that started a little this week), she had been passing out and having trouble with her heart rate, all of that is controlled now. Except she is still really angry all the time with H and he with her. They both have a similar personality in that they both LOVE to argue and have to be right at all times. He views it as a discipline issue, I view it as both a discipline and a health issue. Her will is so strong, I don't really know what to do with her, and tbh I am a little alarmed at being alone with her while H is away. It is exhausting keeping up with her, so many appointments and also she is so smart and constantly argues and negotiates every thing.
Pre-BD H kept saying he was leaving because he couldn't live with D, but then when he talked to his parents, he said "They have opened my eyes, it is not her that is the problem, it is 100% you, you have caused this in her. " And of course his gf agreed.
I told you it was complicated! I am 100% sure that her issues are what caused him to break down. Complete rejection by his own daughter coupled with her escalating and then some outside influence that encouraged him to just blame me.
Pho, your son is cracking me up!
Thank you for sharing that about your daughter. I know its tough, but if anyone can handle you can! Sorry that they have such a complicated relationship, and to have the ILs doing their thing on top of it all, good grief! I get that ILs only know one side (or only care about one side), but dang I wish they would open their eyes. But oh well, only so much we can do, eh?
I hope and pray that things can be evened out between your H and daughter. You will be just fine with her while he is away. Continue giving her the love and support only a mother can give. You will be fine!
Thanks Spiff. Honestly, I think my D and my MIL have some issues in common, both have ocd traits and try to control those around them to manage their own stress. Both very self-centered and unable to empathize with others, its all about them and what they need in any particular moment. Truth is fluid, changes to meet their need at the moment. Both extremely controlling and emotional. I definitely think there is a genetic component.
Good grief, Pho. That sounds just like my SIL. She is so self-centered that it isn't even funny. Did I mention that she is manipulative? And lets not even forget emotional.
I believe fully that she is the driving force behind my W's decision to divorce. Especially considering that when the SIL started going through her marriage troubles (roughly two months before the W's BD) that my W said "I don't care how bad things get between us, we will never divorce." Then came the many, many phone calls/texts/messages. Remember what they went through together... One of the most damning messages came between the two when the W said "I never knew I was so sad." Oh well.
Spiff, my H said "I never realized how this was all YOU until my parents opened my eyes, the dam has broken now and they HATE you and I HATE you." That was after talking to his mother. Google narcissistic personality and tell me if you think that is SIL.
Damn Pho, I am not sure I could recover from a statement like that. But my W said something close to that early after BD - treated me like total shite...but you know something? I still want her. How silly is that?
I looked up narcissistic personality and decided to paste the definition:
"Narcissistic personality disorder is a mental disorder in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for admiration and a lack of empathy for others. But behind this mask of ultraconfidence lies a fragile self-esteem that's vulnerable to the slightest criticism.
A narcissistic personality disorder causes problems in many areas of life, such as relationships, work, school or financial affairs. You may be generally unhappy and disappointed when you're not given the special favors or admiration you believe you deserve. Others may not enjoy being around you, and you may find your relationships unfulfilling."
Pho, so much of that describes my SIL. That first paragraph so fits her to a T. She can't handle criticism and goes off the deep end at what she perceives to be even the smallest slight. More problems in the areas listed than you can shake a stick at. Feels she deserves everything. And this is the person "living it up" after her D issues and constantly telling my W that the grass is greener. Ugh.
Little story to give a perfect example - on S6's first birthday, we drove all the way down to where the W's family lived. The SIL sort of "arranged" a bday party for him. My W asked me to extend the olive branch (we had been on the outs for several months - and I saw some of the NASTY messages she would send to the W about me...). So I did. I swallowed my pride for my W and said thank you for setting this up...you did a wonderful job. Know what she did? Looked me in the eye for a minute and turned around and walked away without saying a word. W just stood there apologizing for her. That was when I was done with her. I extended the olive branch and she just stomped on it. The W never wanted to see why our problems existed and how the SIL acted.
Also, my W went to see her and her family a couple of months ago and to go to a concert the SIL wanted her to go to (the grass is greener...). During the concert the W texted me a few times and then I got one of the nastiest texts from the SIL telling me not to "bother" my W and that she was having a good time. WTF.
And this person is coming up for Thanksgiving.
Spiff, yes, sounds like my MIL. I read a book years ago called "children of the self absorbed" and it fit my H perfectly. I don't remember specifics, but it fit.
And now you have me thinking based on your thread. About the cycle of being abused/escaping. A big lightbulb went off in my head while reading your thread.
Over the years H and I always fought about the IL's. Because I felt that they were abusive, and he would not stand up to them. For me or himself. So finally, maybe 3 years ago, I was at women's group meeting and a speaker was talking about marriage, not even anything to do with these specific issues, but I decided that I needed to make changes for H. I stopped getting into it with his parents. I cut the complaining by at least 50%, I started "letting things go." When BD hit and H turned to his parents and they unleashed hell onto me, I was blindsided because I thought things had improved.
But now I am thinking, I was right. Things had improved. We weren't arguing anymore. To the point where H couldn't take it and turned to his parents to get that adrenaline rush of "fight". He will deny it. Maybe I am wrong. He will say that our constant fighting is what drove him away. But we had stopped fighting! And since BD I have not said one word about his parents, not one! And has that calmed him down? No, that has driven him closer to them, along with all the Pho-bashing that entails. He claims he wants peace, but he is seeking the drama. Actively seeking it out and fueling it. I am hoping that this is a process and he will "see it" and heal from it and actually choose the peaceful option (me!) or at least disengage from the fight and make peace on both ends. If the IL's can let go. They might, if they realize the consequence could be losing their son. I did somewhat, on my own, and then I did 100%, when I realized that was the consequence. But H is still holding onto the fight.
And now that it has been going on for this long and starting to become very obvious that I am not going to engage in it, he is leaving. Because he can't get the fight from me, so he is escaping. He will deny this and say the opposite. Maybe my theory is not exact, but I think there is some truth here, I need to think on it and explore some more.
Thank you Spiff.
Pho,
I am so glad that my post was able to help you. I wish that I had come across that information a long time ago, before it was too late. The question now, is how do I proceed with her?
I am coming up with a last shot talk before she leaves but not quite sure. Given how her past is affecting things, I just don't know. I don't know anymore. Maybe she is done. Maybe she doesn't know. My head hurts.
Hope you get it figured out! Because my different journey is just starting... We can do this - we need a new plan!
Spiff, I think you just need to keep DB'ing. Regardless of "why" our spouses are acting the way they are, or if it is actually in our best interests to remain married to them, right now we ARE married, we do love them, and we are not ready to file for D.
The decision most likely won't be ours anyway, so I think we DB for our own integrity, sanity, etc, and in the event that our screwed up spouses decide to reinvest in the marriage then we are armed with the knowledge and insight we need to decide if and how to proceed. In the meantime, we focus on our own selves, let the spouses do their thing, let it all play out.
Can't stop singing this verse, from an Eminem and Rhianna song....
Just gonna stand there and watch me burn
But that's alright because I like the way it hurts
Just gonna stand there and hear me cry
But that's alright because I love the way you lie
I love the way you lie
I'm singing it loudly and frequently, H is so far in his own world he doesn't even notice, makes the song so much more meaningful. I have entered into the "I am messing with him" phase of my recovery. Also I am not hitting the notes right so its not sounding so great, but hey, I'm on a journey.
Hi Pho,
Catching up on your sitch. While views about each other change, and often abruptly, I think your big insight a few pages back that you (& I'd make that a plural to include your kids) might be better off without your H. Maybe that is what it will take to get him to deal w/ his issues - I suspect he will still blame others for his unhappiness, but it will be harder to do & maybe (just maybe) he might face reality.
I know that your D will likely be relieved to have more space from H. Your S is the one who concerns me, as his obsession w/ his business is troubling. I suspect that if he were a client, I would be seeing a lot of compensating for the absence of your H in his life, and a repeat of the generational dynamic. I worry about his heading in a direction that makes him struggle to form healthy relationships as an adult. I know you have him in IC, but if they aren't exploring this angle, it is worth bringing up with IC (I wouldn't mention it to your S - or your H, as it will likely not help). Your S is clearly resourceful & has talents, and is trying to fill his life with meaning. You and IC might be able to help him channel those strengths into a more healthy path that will keep him from the future duplication of your H, which you noticed - I think rightly.
I also worry that you are still letting H call the shots in the R, and are not yet really putting yourself at the center of your consideration. If I haven't recommended it already, I really think that Bepko & Kresten's Too Good for Her Own Good will really speak to you in an eye-opening way. It may not help your M, but I think it will help you and future Rs, and give you insights into what needs to change if you have a hope for a healthy M with your H.
I don't mean to be a downer on this day of giving thanks. You're an incredibly strong, caring, decent person, who is single-handedly holding your family together. Your kids will thank you, and I think they'll wish you had taken your needs more into consideration than you tend to. You are the strength of your family, and that is a very difficult role to play, and you do it very well. I see all that, and I see someone who also may put herself last in her thinking too often, and who will be able to sustain herself and her kids most by showing herself a bit more importance and self-care.
Much respect and best wishes to you and all you do on this Thanksgiving.
Thank you Asitis. I just ordered the book. I am feeling so extremely emotional today. I am here with the IL's, they are treating me well, but why did it have to come to this?
I am concerned about my son. He has very good social skills and makes friends easily, and is very affectionate and open with me, so that is a good start.
I had a tremor in my arms and hands all day, could barely hold a drink. (drinking water!)
My jaw hurts all the time lately, I am afraid that I am going to break my teeth.
I feel like my body is giving out. I am crashing. I often feel both extremely strong and extremely "done" at the same time, if that makes sense. Not weak, but done.
Getting past this day will be a relief for me, and then I will re-evaluate.
As, when you say you fear I am letting H call all the shots. Yes, he is. But what do I do about it? What shots can I call? I feel immobilized, like anything I say is going to be seen as an ultimatum or will be "proof" that I am controlling. I don't know what to do.
Last night I felt detached for several hours, it was such a good feeling, almost euphoric, almost like being on a high. I need to get that back.
And on top of all of this, out of the blue I am experiencing a deep mourning for my grandfather, he died 12 years ago, he was so important to me and so loved, and I think going to visit my grandmother triggered this in me today, but I just keep tearing up and wanting my papa. I feel like I am almost as upset today missing him as I was when he actually passed, it is just hitting me so hard.
Sorry for the rambling, I am so emotional today. I feel so much loss. I am going to miss H's aunt and one of his cousin's in particular. And I can't even say goodbye as that would be melodramatic and its not like we are even separated, but I can see the writing on the wall. I can't do this anymore.
Thank you Asitis. I just ordered the book. I am feeling so extremely emotional today. I am here with the IL's, they are treating me well, but why did it have to come to this?
I am concerned about my son. He has very good social skills and makes friends easily, and is very affectionate and open with me, so that is a good start.
I had a tremor in my arms and hands all day, could barely hold a drink. (drinking water!)
My jaw hurts all the time lately, I am afraid that I am going to break my teeth.
I feel like my body is giving out. I am crashing. I often feel both extremely strong and extremely "done" at the same time, if that makes sense. Not weak, but done.
Getting past this day will be a relief for me, and then I will re-evaluate.
As, when you say you fear I am letting H call all the shots. Yes, he is. But what do I do about it? What shots can I call? I feel immobilized, like anything I say is going to be seen as an ultimatum or will be "proof" that I am controlling. I don't know what to do.
Last night I felt detached for several hours, it was such a good feeling, almost euphoric, almost like being on a high. I need to get that back.
And on top of all of this, out of the blue I am experiencing a deep mourning for my grandfather, he died 12 years ago, he was so important to me and so loved, and I think going to visit my grandmother triggered this in me today, but I just keep tearing up and wanting my papa. I feel like I am almost as upset today missing him as I was when he actually passed, it is just hitting me so hard.
Sorry for the rambling, I am so emotional today. I feel so much loss. I am going to miss H's aunt and one of his cousin's in particular. And I can't even say goodbye as that would be melodramatic and its not like we are even separated, but I can see the writing on the wall. I can't do this anymore.
You can do it as long as you want. However, you are better off without him right now - my blunt assessment from afar, so take it for what it is worth at that distance. It may be time for you to initiate some further space between you and your H. He is draining you, and drawing your focus away from you and your kids much more than seems healthy or sustainable. Just my two cents.
Maybe stop trying to save your M,and start trying to save yourself and you kids? It may just be the best thing to save your M. You tolerate a great deal of abuse by your H for the sake of your M. You kids are not doing well, you are not doing well, and - not that this is a priority- neither is your H. He has a lot of his own narcissistic tendencies to deal with. He may, or may not be able to attend to those. I don't see what you are doing getting him to deal with this, or to move towards reconciliation on terms that would be healthy.
Maybe dumping the a$$, and let him decide whether he wants to get his life in order to fix that. It won't necessarily draw him & the children together or apart, but it stands a better chance than the status quo.
You can do it as long as you want. However, you are better off without him right now - my blunt assessment from afar, so take it for what it is worth at that distance. It may be time for you to initiate some further space between you and your H. He is draining you, and drawing your focus away from you and your kids much more than seems healthy or sustainable. Just my two cents.
Maybe stop trying to save your M,and start trying to save yourself and you kids? It may just be the best thing to save your M. You tolerate a great deal of abuse by your H for the sake of your M. You kids are not doing well, you are not doing well, and - not that this is a priority- neither is your H. He has a lot of his own narcissistic tendencies to deal with. He may, or may not be able to attend to those. I don't see what you are doing getting him to deal with this, or to move towards reconciliation on terms that would be healthy.
Maybe dumping the a$$, and let him decide whether he wants to get his life in order to fix that. It won't necessarily draw him & the children together or apart, but it stands a better chance than the status quo.
Agreed with everything 100%
Pho, your body is giving you clear signals. It's too much. You've got to reign if in before you shut down. If you break down, then what? What happens to your kids? What happens to you.
Imo, you're sending a message to your husband that gives him a hall pass to treat you like [censored]. That you will take all of the abuse. Absorb it. Become the scapegoat while he melts down, encourages his family to berate you, and blames his daughter and in turn you, for issues that he himself is not accepting. And you're just standing there, taking it, sending a message that, "hey, it's ok that you melt down, are unstable and are generally acting like a self absorbed ass - we're married. For better or for worse will come at my expense. Continue on - I'll stand here and be steadfast while you essentially act like a petulant child."
Yeah, hell no.
Pho, you're paralyzed. You're full of fear. You've lost your voice. It appears that you feel that standing for yourself is not as important as standing for your marriage. A marriage is (Imo) two healthy people working together towards a common goal. He's not healthy. You aren't either (and that's not to be rude, but it's an observation. You're going down - and fast, sweetie). You're clinging to the shards of your broken marriage looking to put it back together, cutting yourself in the process.
You can't force him to be healthy. You can't force him to be the partner that you need. You can't force anything, and why would you want to? You should desire a partner who wants to be there. Who is going to work through it, who wants to be healthy. And I'm not seeing it from him. I see a man who is ill, who is lost and not present and has no desire to do so.
He's not afraid to lose you - because he's already gone. Send him on his way. Seriously, you can still love him from a far, but I have to wonder that if you jerk that rug of safety out from under him - what will he choose? Enabling him to wander around and not present isn't doing either one of you favors. It's allowing him to make a choice, by not making a choice. And you're better than that, you deserve better than that.
Stop giving him all the power. Stand up tall, enforce some boundaries and take back your life.
Calibri - I needed to hear those words too. I was paralyzed with fear too until I realized it was at my expense.
Pho - I too lost my voice in my marriage. I see it now and I am getting it back. I was scared to lose what I thought was real, I was willing to put up with anything. I know how you feel. Please don't lose yourself at the expense of this broken man. Your children will be great because they will have a strong role model for them.
Asitis, Calibri, ep, thank you. You are right. I am going to have to reflect on this more before I really "get" it. Thank you.
Oh, I almost forgot! I think I mentioned a couple of weeks ago that I picked up on the undercurrents of problems between SIL and the IL's. Well SIL and her children didn't come yesterday, they visited SIL's relatives instead. So BIL came alone.
Back in July when I was here I noticed that all of the pics with me in them were taken down. Yesterday I noticed that my pics are still down, but also now there are no pics of SIL and her children. So what used to be a huge picture collage including everyone, is now a few pics of the IL's with their sons and the biological grandchildren. SIL, her kids, and I have been erased! Even group shots that include me or SIL are gone.
Pho...I almost cannot believe the level of childishness you're describing...taking down pictures?!? That is one of the most passive aggressive attacks I've ever heard of. Good grief! Did you check under your bed to make sure there wasn't a doll,representing you, with pins in it?
H and his family sound like a hot mess. Nothing like an entire group of people who refuse to grow up. You poor woman!
Give your kids an extra hug on my behalf today. Give yourself one, too!
Hi pho, beware here comes a rant.
Your mother in laws world is not a world I would chose to live in. I would eliminate her from my life. Good riddance to bad rubbish. If she wants to see the kids let her son bring them over. I know that's burning a bridge by who cares. It will force your husband to have to chose between his wife and his mommy.
If he chooses mommy you will know what you should do in respect to your marriage. If your husband chooses you then you have a true sense of his commitment and work from there. Either way you slap down that rabid dog of a MIL and show her who's boss. She seems to be an cancer in your marriage and life. Cut her out and then radiate your marriage. You may not save the marriage but can save yourself.
I am calling it as I see it. If other people here say it's bad advice that's okay and listen to them. I'm just not felling the compassion for Satan right now. That's all I have to say, there is no more.
What she said
And you can still text me for support.
Hugs Max
Thank you Ancaire, Mutatio, Max. I am having a very hard day. Fighting with H. Not a good thing, DB wise or else wise. He is claiming that 10 years ago during a fight I told him not to call his family of origin his "family" and that was reserved for me and the kids, and that he has stopped using that term for his FOO and it is dysfunctional, and it really "messed him up" and caused him pain and resentment for me all these years. I do not remember this conversation at all. Not even as a vague memory. I told him that it sounds to me like we were probably having a nasty fight, and if I said that it was taken out of context, or I was really upset about something, but that doesn't sound like me and I have no recollection of it. I asked him if in the future I say something that causes him so much pain or confusion to please discuss it with me later when emotions are calm, or make a counseling appointment for us so we can talk with a 3rd party. I said I would never want him to carry around pain from a comment I made and I want a plan to make sure that moving forward pain doesn't fester like that.
I truly do not remember anything even remotely like that, but he says it was 10 years ago, so maybe?
He did say that "there is some love there" and that is why he is still here, so that was good news. But he has so much pain from the past and I never cared about it. I told him that I did care, I do care, but maybe I was young and caught up with other things and with "being right" and being overly emotional and my concern for him was not my priority and I regret that now. I told him I would never be perfect and there has to be at some point a choice to focus on the future and on rebuilding and not on past hurts, most of which the other person doesn't even remember. And I reiterated that I do care about his feelings, and I am truly sorry and I get that I didn't in the past, and I said I suffered a lot over this realization and beat myself up about it, it was a hard realization for me. I added that I am done beating myself up over it. Done. I am not going backwards with him. I do care and I can listen now.
All of this started in the car when we were still over an hour away from home and my friend texted me to say she was going to taker her dog for a walk and did I want to join her. I said "not home yet, if you go again later maybe." H asked who texted, I said it was my friend , she wanted to see if I could walk with her. He said "are you going to?" And I said "No! We are not even in (our state) yet, I don't think I can make it!, maybe if she wants to go again later" And he got angry and said I shot down his small talk. OK, I probably could have phrased it better, but it wasn't in the tone of "you are an idiot" it was in the tone of "she's going now."
So now I am wondering what other crazy statements I have possibly made over the years that messed with H's mind. I am sure I said loads of stupid things in the course of arguments, or he imagined I did, and he is carrying this stuff around for years? Actually now that I am thinking about it, when MC asked us last week what we were doing for Thanksgiving, H said "going to NY" and I said "To see H's family." I am pretty sure I said that???? Maybe I said his parents, I don't know, to me the word family was never an issue and I didn't realize he was avoiding its use. Actually, I am pretty sure he has been using the word all along, but maybe not? Maybe he's been saying parents, brother, etc.
Since then, H has come up to our room 2x to bring up other issues, something about the dog, something about an interaction with D. We handled those issues quickly logically and non emotionally.
So this is what I am wondering. Is our communication improving, and this just [censored] because we are terrible at it, but this is our baseline and can move up from there? Or is this just it, and it [censored]. Also, I took an anxiety pill after the first fight and that helped a huge amount with the successive talks.
I am trying to "reframe" the IL's as "H's elderly parents because they are in their 70's now and if I met them now I would excuse a lot of dysfunction due to "old age" but I have known them since their mid-40's and they were worse then, so its hard for me to forget. But if I can start over as though I am meeting them at this point in my life, keep a healthy distance, let h do his thing and kind of phase myself out of it as I have been doing, but maybe a little more so. If they can drop the talking about me, I think this can work.
And also, I am still fully aware that I am on the hook still and having to explain myself for making a comment I don't remember 10 years ago, while he is still scott free and above taking comments about the actual affair he had this year, and the bashing of me to his parents, and months of raging drunken spew.
I hate this. I really hate this. I cannot wait until he leaves for his job. I know I can be pleasant and breezy on phone calls, and if does visit once a month I can be friendly and maybe the break will be a "break" from our old ways of interacting and we can establish new ones. Maybe living together and having to be "on guard" 24/7 is what is holding us back. (among other things, but I will be positive.)
I have a lot going on in my mind right now that I want to ask advice on, but I will hold off until the time comes. Things like how to handle when the IL's want to visit the kids while H is away. How to deal with H when he comes home to visit. How to deal with no sex. Should I even be having sex at all with him since he doesn't kiss me during it and then I feel used, but the dilemma is that I have a very high sex drive so its not easy to go without.
How to not get too excited and hopeful that h said "there is some love there."
And, on top of this all, I visited an old friend yesterday. She knows the situation, but I haven't talked to her in months. She asked if H was still talking to the lesbian. The lesbian? Where did she get that? She calls the ow the lesbian? I asked her why and she said "just a feeling, I think she is." OK, that came out of left field but strangely makes me feel so much better. Wouldn't that be the ultimate irony if H was falling in love with someone who really did think they were just friends? No wonder why it didn't turn physical, if she is a lesbian! LOL! I will never know. It doesn't matter. But in a weird way it made me feel so much better. It would be just like my H to miss the signs. My friend has a lot of lesbian friends, she said something about ow just struck her as being one. IDK, she is probably just trying to make me feel better.
Sorry, getting sidetracked. I have no one else to "talk" to about these things. You are all my bff's.
OK, apparently everyone is out shopping or sleeping off Thanksgiving, or GAL so I will be my own advice giver.
I need to reign in the emotion, go back to non-reacting which I have been doing well with except for a couple of slip ups.
Practice patience and kindness with H. Keep a pleasant tone and attitude.
Carefully consider what I actually want and bring it up in MC when I figure out how to phrase it, and it has to be something that will help me move forward and not be a rehash of an old problem.
GAL is exhausting me right now, so I need to tone it back and work on simpler ways to GAL that build my energy rather than sap it.
H is leaving soon, so things will take their own course pretty soon anyway. No need to rush into anything, just focus on now.
As far as things to bring up in MC, we have about 2 more sessions before H leaves. I want him to leave on a positive note. I want him to feel validated and I also want to feel validated. The issue I think I need to address right now is that when he brings up a concern he brings it up in a way that makes me feel berated. I need to find a way to express that in a non-confrontative and honest way. I will not focus on my hurt, on my loneliness, on "I want to fix this marriage"- I will express concerns about the way he communicates. I need to find a healthy way to express this as a boundary and not an accusation.
Also he called me "mom" twice this weekend and this isn't the first time this has happened but I am staying away from that one with a 1000 foot pole.
I am welcoming the separation. Actually welcoming it.
Also, since I am journaling here, I noticed something interesting this weekend. FIL hugged me about 3 or 4 times, which is a lot for him, and they were big strong bear hugs, also unusual for him. He also started calling me "honey." And, he bought all the beverages for the party. This was the first year he bought my favorite, (a type of soda I am addicted to) and he made sure to tell me he bought them for me, and sent a case home with me. He was also the one who noticed that I had a terrible uncontrollable tremor in my arms and hands, and "checked" on me a few times, offering me a drink and asking me to sit down and showing concern.
And, finally, bedtime on Thanksgiving. H and I were on the sofa bed, my s's were next to us on another sofa. S12 came over and hugged us, climbed in between and gave us a hug. I said "Happy Thanksgiving, S, I am so thankful for YOU." He said "I am thankful for my family."
I think if I can maintain my emotions, set healthy boundaries so I can move myself out of this awful limbo, things can turn around. At the very least, I think when H comes back from his trip I will be ready to file if he isn't ready to reconcile. I really believe I have done 90% of what I can do for the marriage, just tune up my DB a little and then focus on myself full steam ahead and let life unfold. If I can put in the effort on myself that I have on the R I will be in great shape.
I'm here. I was looking at places out west where I could live. I am not feeling confident this marriage. I'll keep trying but she seems to be drifting farther and farther away. It's her life and her choice.
Your idea to make the best of it till he leaves is the right play. Then you will have to do some soul searching.I'll keep an eye one the thread if you need someone to bounce things off of.
Hi pho,
You are living what I lived before husband moved out. I was trying so hard. I was letting him treat me pretty bad. I was afraid to complain or voice my needs for about 6 months. He was pretty rude and selfish and inconsiderate and filled with anger towards me. I keep thinking about it now that I have a bit of my "power" back. He is walking on egg shells around me because he does not want me go through court. I don't feel good about it, but letting go has helped me mentally (not completely detached because there still is a bit of hope that he will change. But a part of me does not even necessarily want to go back to him)
for the first time ever he wants to talk, which I delayed. He also gave me a check for child support the other day. (He would have e eventually had to give me it anyway so it's not an olive branch to me...would have been one if he gave me for the months that are not retroactive
)
I really think you will be relieved. It was great for me to not be around that negativity. He was right. Nothing changed for me. My son's and I developed a stronger bond because I had less tension once I accepted he was gone. I wasn't worried anymore because I knew it could not get too much worse, only better when he has to pay. So horrible how unequal he was with all the finances. We really did not work as family unit.
Thank you Mutatio. For so long I wanted the silence to end and now that he is speaking up the things he is saying just are so hurtful. It's like he is describing a different relationship, a different person than me. I don't recall this incident, it just doesn't sound right. What else is in his head? And at the same time his behavior is improving, so it leaves me to wonder if this is his process of working things out and there is hope? Maybe by talking about these awful things he will find some resolution and healing and we can move forward? Because right now when I hear these things it just makes me want to vomit and wonder WTF? I want to be hooked up to a lie detector test to prove that I didn't say this, but that isn't going to happen.
A friend of mine went through this and she said it took 2 years before she felt "safe" that her H was back. She said just when things seemed better he'd start spewing and sleeping in the basement again. Maybe this separation is what could save us, because I believe I'd break down during those 6 months if I had to listen to this during that time frame.
It also makes me tempted to create some off the wall things that he said just to see how he likes it. I can say "remember that time you said you only wanted me to hop? well that messed up my knees and now I can't bike any more." I mean it feels like that level of crazyness to me. Maybe I did say it, I can see maybe a context where he was saying "My family this" "My family that" and maybe just maybe I said "We are your family too". That I could see saying. I think he twisted it. But I can't even say that because I don't remember it at all.
And he says he altered his speech about his family and has not called them his family for 10 years after this and this is an example of how controlling I am?
I can just imagine what kinds of things he is telling his IC, no wonder why he came to the conclusion that I am emotionally abusive and borderline personality.
And what about the things I actually really said? All of the ILY's and How are you, can I get you something, would you like a massage, are you ok?, all of those 1 million caring loving statements are not remembered and given no weight at all?
OMG, what has he been telling his parents and friends that I said? Everyone probably thinks I am insane.
Over the years I have written him a lot of letters, I know he kept them, maybe one day he will read them and get a different perspective on our life. I can't even suggest it. It would probably be what he does the day I walk away and then it will be too late. He can start over with someone else and think things are awesome until his memory starts playing games with her too.
Could this all be spew from the EA? Could an EA create this much confusion and guilt and rewriting of history? He claims it was just Jan-May but I know they were in contact through August. I am thinking the original round of spew from Feb- May was associated with the EA but could this be stemming from that still? I think this goes much deeper than that.
He leaves in about 6 weeks. I can hang on for 6 more weeks. And then just let events unfold as they will.