Divorcebusting.com
Posted By: Zues126 Black and white - 10/14/15 12:06 AM
Old thread

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2603230&page=11

I've given some thought to why I'm so all or nothing. It's the mentality that I have developed that's allowed me to achieve my goals, and do things no one else around me seems to be able to do.

It started when I played pool for money. At the time I didn't work. I won pool matches. That's what I did. If I lost, I couldn't call my apartment management company and tell them how lucky the other guy got. I had to pay or I got evicted at some point. If I showed up at the gas station and explained that I needed some gas but didn't have cash, they didn't really give a darn about whether or not I got hooked on my break, or how many balls my opponent slopped in. I learned there are two possible outcomes. Win, or lose. Either you get paid, or you pay the other guy. That's all that matters.

Boy is it tempting to blur those lines. Excuses. Consolation. "I lost but I played well. I wasn't really in the match today. I was jet lagged. I couldn't get used to the table. In these short sets there is just so much luck, it's like flipping coins. He had his career moment. I was in a fight with my SO. I didn't really care about this tournament anyway. I didn't really care if I lost, we weren't playing for that much, I was just laying it down so I could win more later." ON AND ON. God, to me it's all garbage. Just the static of thousands of losers explaining why they didn't have what it took to win.

I refused to buy in. But man, the pressure of having to win was crippling. No wonder people make excuses. The urge to just quit was so strong. The path was so hard. The pressure crushing down that said you can never lose, ever, to anyone, for any reason. It's not ok. No excuses. That pressure was so hard. There was a soft voice inside of me saying 'no one else pushes this hard, why can't you just let up a little, do your best, and just accept whatever happens, everyone loses once in a while, right?' Yes, when the pressure was so crushing that it felt like I couldn't go on the urge to listen to that voice was tempting. I could say I put up a good fight. I could point out that I won last week. I could point out that I still had a winning track record overall. But if I listened to that voice I wouldn't hit my goal.

It comes down to this: Do I want to be a champion, or do I want a story about why I wasn't? It's one or the other. It is black and white. All the others that murk up the waters, they are just trying to take the easy path and confuse the issue so the monumental gap between success and failure isn't so obvious. To me it is so clear I don't see how others can miss it.

Now pool may not matter to anyone else, but that's just one example. This is the same no bs approach I took to business, which is why I have almost never met my equal.

And this is the same attitude I took towards marriage: There are people that have life long marriages, and there are people that have stories about why they don't. One. Or. The. Other. If you tell me you got divorced, frankly, after that the rest is just a bunch of static about why you didn't keep your commitment, why you didn't achieve that goal. I don't really care. I don't want to hear it. You can tell it to your friends and family, and hang out with others that agree to buy your story if you buy theirs. Good for you. But all the story telling in the world won't replace the fact that your family is destroyed and you will never have another chance at achieving a life long marriage. And once you decide that there is ever a reason it's ok to walk it's a matter of when, not if, because marriage is that hard.

And while pool doesn't matter, and work isn't all that big of a deal, I think Marriage actually does. I think it is a big deal. I think loving and serving our partner and our family is actually what we're here to do. Not everyone has to agree, but those that walk down the aisle and take vows talk the talk. They just don't walk the walk.

For that reason I would never have walked from my M no matter how bad it was. We can all build cases, we all deserve better, our partners were all horrible. I don't care. I don't want a story about why I got divorced. I want a life long partnership. And nothing was going to stop me from achieving that short of my life.

As is my spouse walked away. She wins herself a heck of a story. And I and my family will pay the same price. She had valid reasons to feel the way she did. I made horrible mistakes. But zooming way out the fact is that I married a quitter. Black and white.

Hope this sheds some light on why I'm so black and white about some things. I know I seem crazy to a lot of people. Just realize it seems so clear to me it seems crazy others don't see it the way I do. Not judging, just different. No, I'm not easy to live with. No one is. She wasn't, I dealt with it. I am always working on myself, I am not the person I was two years ago, and I darn sure expect to be different in two more years, much less 10 or 20. It was up to her whether she wanted to crucify my failings or celebrate my qualities. And regardless of the failings I have I am a great man, that has done great things in my life, and will continue to. I will also continue to err. But while I'm not easy to live with, no one will ever have to worry about me finding reasons for walking, cheating, not providing for my family, or not giving my best to be the best man I can be ever day until they put me in the ground.
Posted By: Ancaire Re: Black and white - 10/14/15 12:58 AM
Z - I get you, I really do. Most of us fall somewhere between all or nothing, but there is really nothing wrong with your approach. As you know, I read through your old threads yesterday, and I know for certain you're not inflexible. That would be the danger of black/white thinking - but fortunately, that's not you.

When you're ready...your next R partner will be the luckiest W on the planet. The kind of commitment you describe sounds like a dream to all of us here. I'm rooting for you!
Posted By: Zues126 Re: Black and white - 10/14/15 04:12 AM
Thanks Anc.

So, I'm a little irritated. D8 told me tonight that I'm going to have two weekends in a row with them because mom will be taking them trick or treating on Halloween.

Um, what? STBX never mentioned anything to me about having them 10/31, or changing the schedule. As is I have plans to take them to my best friends house so that all of our children can trick or treat together.

I'm totally at a loss for what to say to STBX. I mean, first off you don't tell kids about changes to schedules without getting agreement first. Second it's awfully presumptuous to assume that I am not capable of getting them costumes or taking them out.

I was thinking of writing a rough draft for review by the DB forums...but actually I'm not going to send STBX an email at all. Why should I? I'm not going to ask permission to parent my children, nor am I going to lecture her on how to parent. Instead I will simply proceed with my plans. At some point she'll have to mention a schedule change to me at which point I will decline. But I see no reason I need to bring it up.

I can't wait until court.
Posted By: Ancaire Re: Black and white - 10/14/15 04:30 AM
So basically, it's still all about her, in her mind? Wow. She said it, so therefore it must be.

I'd be irritated, too. I'd wait for her to tell me, also. She has no idea you'll be ready with a reply. Wish I could be a fly on the wall...lol
Posted By: JksD Re: Black and white - 10/14/15 09:20 AM
Zues, I replied in my thread that I see some similarities between you and XH. I suspect that he has the same addiction as you.

But there is a big difference between you and him. You have the determination, the strength and the self-awareness to change. XH just isn't quite there yet.

And self-awareness is such a precious characteristic to have but not everyone will even come close to having it in their life time. You sound like you are really making the best of what you have now. smile
Posted By: JulieH Re: Black and white - 10/14/15 09:27 AM
Your such a nice guy for wanting to take them on Halloween. My husband actually is making plans and does not want kids that day even though he is away and missed 2 weekends with them. legally can she alter schedule.?

You Say you see things black and white when it comes to marriage. I agree with your sentiment regarding marriage. ( Personally I never would have left), but I see things as black and white when it comes to infidelity. I feel that while Marriage is a legal binding contract, remaining faithful to someone comes from something deeper and is more honorable. I wish there were legal implications for not honoring your pact of fidelity (think of dangerous diseases you have exposed your spouse to and the financial aspect as well )
It seems there cannot be 2 blacks and whites, as your logic says work on the marriage irregardless.
To me infidelity is the ultimate betrayal and I would not look past it. People can show me all the studies of brain changes and point out how rejected he felt and I don't care. I wouldnt behave like that, and I won't tolerate less. So yeah, I get your black and white position. I don't think it's being stubborn, I think it's a fair and rational approach in a very irrational and cruel world (but then again I'm a pessimistic idealist : ) )

It's hard being a Cassandra. I think one day our spouses will definatly regret this once they see that we have moved on. They just lack something within themselves that we seem to have and I'm not just saying this because we are the ones left behind.
Posted By: Avanti Re: Black and white - 10/14/15 11:32 AM
I am new to your sitch and so am only just catching up with developments and you've dfinitely been through to some incredibly tough times, I really feel for you.

I do get your black and white thinking, like you I thrive on success and I'm pretty direct.

One thing I don't believe in is war, do you?

If not, why are you taking the approach of going to war? By doing so you might get a few brief moments of self-satisfaction but something will come back and bite you, that's they way things go in any battle, don't try snd tell me you don't know this.

I am not saying lie down and take whatever comes your way, dealing with things as and when they happen from a less confrontational perspective will give you better results, guaranteed. Also having a plan of action, rather than of reaction is the way forward, don't consult your feelings for the way forward, consult your plan.

You've got your kids to consider and they may get caught up in the power struggle for who is right (you or your wife) get embroiled in. Take the what is right road you will feel much better for it and get more of what you want. You can still be black and white but be in a smarter game.
Posted By: Zues126 Re: Black and white - 10/17/15 02:19 AM
I want to share an excerpt from an email my mom sent to her betraying partner...Many things I could post on so sorry for not replying to other comments just yet. Right now I want to focus on something I feel quite passionate about: LBS's rewriting history. I get it. Our M's were bad. The "I don't want to return to that M either" and "I'm willing to recommit if WAS demonstrates growth as well", these are reasonable to a point. I mean, our M's were terrible and we'd definitely want to ensure this didn't repeat by both making the M better and ensuring our partner knew what a commitment meant. But focusing on the negatives in our M and WAS is not a healthy place to dwell.

As you know my mom was betrayed by a 12 year partner. He gave her a bunch of excuses, blaming her for much of it, basically saying "this was what was missing in our relationship and why I strayed". So zero accountability. The funny part is he asked my mom "you never told me what you felt my shortcomings were". This is what my mom replied (edited for protection):

Can I find times that I didn't like? Outlooks that I was uncomfortable with? Specific days when I wish A instead of B? Sure, I could come up with some kind of list for you. But if you are asking what you did that would drive me to cheat on you, there is no list.

We have different priorities and world views. Your growth and development is your business. Did things annoy me? Did I judge things? Of course, but I never focused on that. Believe me when I say this: making a list of YOUR shortcomings would be more about ME and MY shortcomings. What is it that makes me uncomfortable about something you are doing? Is it you? No, most likely it is me. What can I learn about myself examining my discomfort?

It makes no sense to hash over why my feelings might be hurt one day or how you could have given me more. You are you and as long as we were a team it is your growth not mine. It is your struggle. You felt lonely, you felt pushed away. Everything in this world will challenge us. Nothing in this world is going to fulfill us totally. I don't know how to say this to you any clearer. Making a list of your shortcomings will only tell me about me. I thought we were on a path and that we would bring out the best in each other. I did not look to you to make my world right.


My mom was a good partner. Not perfect. But I am really proud of how she has handled this, and her maturity. This was inspiring to me, making me want to really challenge myself even more to not vilify WAS and to hold myself accountable for my own happiness.
Posted By: Ancaire Re: Black and white - 10/17/15 03:10 AM
It was inspiring to me, too! How well thought out and delivered. Your mom sounds amazing.
Posted By: gonegrl Re: Black and white - 10/17/15 01:07 PM
Zues, I agree with you completely and your mom is amazing. However, I am starting to realize that there is a part 2. The part where the story changes, and it is no longer about your commitment or lack of it. It is about the fact that sometimes things really are out of your control. And then the story becomes how do you deal with that? How do you go on and have the best life possible, and be the best person you can be, in the face of having lost.

I am not ready for that story yet, and am still committed to reconciling the marriage. I do not want to lose my family. But I do recognize that there is more to it than my commitment alone, I really might lose this one. But I won't go down without doing every last thing that I can possibly do. I am not giving up.
Posted By: Zues126 Re: Black and white - 10/17/15 04:06 PM
JulieH/photoka: This black/white rant applied to my belief in the commitment of marriage. In many of our cases our spouse broke that commitment. I agree that them bomb-dropping us and starting a physical affair with an outside party is terminating the marriage. At that point we need to move forward with our lives. There is nothing left to be committed to. This doesn't mean we burn bridges. It just means we keep our eyes open. My last point was that we move forward focused on positive thoughts, and don't fixate on our WAS's or our M's failings. Yes, there are emotions to work through, but at the end we must simply own our part, work on ourselves, and let the past go. It's definitely a process, but with enough time and deliberation it does happen.

Avanti: My plan with STBX is very simple. I communicate only when absolutely required, and then I do so with as few words as possible, speaking only to the business end of things, with and possible emotions/judgments/opinions/defenses or ANYTHING taken out. For example, I won't ask her not to put the kids in the middle. I won't tell her how I think we should agree on things before communicating to them. I won't explain why I won't make the schedule change. I won't apologize. I won't reason. I won't debate. Nothing nothing nothing.

She did email me and ask if I could bring the children over so she could take them trick or treating. She mentioned that our D8 was really sad that she couldn't go with mom like she does every year and offered an adjustment that would make that work. Personally I think she is being extremely manipulative, and is making a mountain out of a molehill with D8 in an attempt to coerce me to give her what she wants. I believe what she should have done would be just to tell D8 casually "this is your time with dad" and then bring it up with me if she wanted. NOT to allow it to become a big deal and tell D8 she'd see what she could do. This is a joke. HOWEVER- I will respond with something strictly business-like and professional like "I agree we should continue to flex when possible for the best interest of the children. Unfortunately my plans with the children won't make that possible."

I can tell you that in the last YEAR those have been my responses. Why? Because I'm not playing. I don't pretend to know her motives, but if she is trying to push any of my buttons she will find me like she's trying to play a game that has dead batteries. She can push buttons all she wants but nothing will happen. It doesn't matter what she does, I will not give her a reaction of any type. It will be completely flat. Because any emotional response I gave would just pour gas on the fire and encourage her to try further ways to manipulate me or push my buttons. Pass. She gets nothing from me. She can do what she wants but she'll be playing solitaire. Of course she can get exasperated and complain to her friends about how unreasonable or crazy and inhuman I am...but she will do that anyway...and if she can't see it's her own horrendous behavior that has driven me to this point to protect myself from her then it doesn't matter anyway. So I'm not starting a war. She's trying to light a fire, I'm just becoming wet wood.
Posted By: JulieH Re: Black and white - 10/17/15 10:31 PM
Zues, I think that the way you are communicating is a strategy that would drive me crazy as a spouse. It is so hurtful and effective because there is nothing worse then indifference. I understand why you are doing it. She definatly is pushing buttons, and you can't allow your life to be consumed with petty arguments. Do you think they push buttons because they are still attached and want to see if you are, or do you think it's because they are just selfish and controlling and incapable of thinking of anyone but themselves?

Do you think this would have the same effect on a male as it would a female? If i communicated this way I think my husband would not even notice and possibly just think everything is going great.

I did not ask you, is infidelity a deal breaker for you as well? Are you done? Let's say she had remorse and wanted to work on marriage, would you still be willing to try?
Posted By: Zues126 Re: Black and white - 10/17/15 11:19 PM
Quote:
Do you think they push buttons because they are still attached and want to see if you are, or do you think it's because they are just selfish and controlling and incapable of thinking of anyone but themselves?

In general this type of speculation is considered mind reading. However it turns out that you can indeed discover their motivations when their behavior is specifically aimed towards you. There is a chart that I was given by my DB coach. Based on how YOU feel when they act a certain way, you can determine THEIR motivations. How is this possible? It's because they know you intimately, they know your buttons and what each one does, so when they are doing things strictly for your benefit you actually can tell what they are trying to accomplish. Here is the chart:

You feel: Irritated
Their motivation: Attention

You feel: Insufficient
They feel: Insufficient, desire to prove their value

You feel: Powerless
They feel: Powerless, desire to gain control

You feel: Hurt and/or Angry
They feel: Vindictive, desire for revenge

Couple of examples. I took my kids on a trip once early on. When I dropped the kids off I was only there for 30 seconds, yet she managed to tell the kids about all the things she did over the weekend at a mixed bonfire. It was clear she was aiming this to me. My DB coach asked me how it made me feel. It came down to I felt insufficient, like I was left out, she didn't need me to have a good time. My DB coach pointed out that she probably felt insufficient as I just had a great weekend with my family without her. Another example would be when she took back Sunday nights from me and said she wouldn't allow that again until after court. I felt quite powerless and a bit angry. It was clear her motivation was that she felt she was losing control, and possibly wanted to hurt me as well.

In this instance (with the Halloween thing) I feel partially irritated, partially angry. So I expect she is looking for attention and maybe a little revenge.

Before moving on I must say this is very cool. Again, I would never have believed how I felt about anything could reflect someone else's motivations, but when it is someone that knows your buttons and is taking specific actions aimed only at you, it is actually possible.

As to the other reason of 'why is she doing this', it is really just her acting on how she feels. There is no overarching strategy or consistent underlying theme (like she wants R, or she doesn't want me to move on, etc). She just acts based on how she feels. When she feels hurt, she might lash out. When she feels forgotten about, she might cry for attention. This doesn't MEAN anything, other than she is going through her own emotional journey and simply feels justified in acting out her feelings.


Quote:
Do you think this would have the same effect on a male as it would a female? If i communicated this way I think my husband would not even notice and possibly just think everything is going great.


I really don't know. When you said this would drive you nuts as a spouse I hope you know that wasn't my intent (except for the 5% of the time I'm feeling very childish myself). I really am simply protecting myself. But I would never treat my spouse this way. I am doing this because she ended our marriage, destroyed my family, and will continue to do as much damage as I allow her to in my life. I'm out on that. So if SHE did this I would be appreciative because I don't want anything from her. However if I was in a relationship with someone that did this it would be pretty difficult. I guess I wouldn't feel like I was in a relationship with them, because there's really no communication other than level 1 stuff. I DEFINITELY wouldn't recommend this as a 'strategy' in terms of trying to change WAS's behavior. Don't worry about changing his behavior. You can't. Just do what you think is appropriate based on the situation you are in. Unfortunately I was in a situation where this is appropriate for me.

Quote:
I did not ask you, is infidelity a deal breaker for you as well? Are you done? Let's say she had remorse and wanted to work on marriage, would you still be willing to try?


It's funny, I used to ask myself that question all of the time, as do most new LBS's. As well as "how could this ever come back together again", and "are we moving towards that or not", and "what would she need to do differently", and "could I forgive her", and many others. Eventually you get tired of that. Because quite simply that's not happening. She has already destroyed my family and my marriage. I don't see any reason to let her destroy my present. And at this point it wouldn't even be her doing it, it would be me by obsessing and spinning in circles. Which is necessary for a while (a LONG while it seems like), but eventually you let it go. One more point- LBS's sometimes feel the need to tell themselves it is done to try to achieve 'closure' and end the 'limbo', when in reality they don't know how they'd really feel and they haven't even started to comprehend how permanently destructive divorce really is because they're still reeling in shock.

So I will tell you where my brain goes if those thoughts ever pop up. I think "it doesn't matter because that's not what's in front of me", and "if that situation ever arises I'll figure it out then", and "I can't really imagine how I'd respond in that situation", and "God only knows, anything is possible with God, and I will follow his lead".

What I can tell you is that I am moving forward with my life as if I knew there was zero chance of R ever being possible, and I truly don't expect that to happen, and I've gotten pretty comfortable with that fact. But because I'm enjoying my life and excited about the direction I'm going I don't need to ensure that percentage is 0% to continue to grieve, grow, heal, and move forward. And I don't need to cling to whatever non-zero percentage is there because I am appreciative of what God has given me and the journey I am on.

Hope that answers the questions a little bit for me anyway. Thanks for following Julie. smile
Posted By: tl2 Re: Black and white - 10/18/15 12:30 AM
Quote:
She just acts based on how she feels


Exactly. That's the kind of thing that used to turn me in knots, because I am analytical (which is why I'm good at my job) and I don't make hasty decisions on impulse or simply on my feelings. So I have run myself ragged in the past trying to figure out the reasoning until I, too, finally realized there wasn't any reasoning, at least not like I do it. She will act based on how she feels, yet doesn't understand that actions drive feelings. If you want to change how you feel, you have to change what you do and how you do it. And you change what you do because of the commitment, because you've been doing something hurtful or destructive, etc.

Quote:
So I will tell you where my brain goes if those thoughts ever pop up. I think "it doesn't matter because that's not what's in front of me"...And I don't need to cling to whatever non-zero percentage is there because I am appreciative of what God has given me and the journey I am on.


Amen brother. Well said. This is where I'm at as well.
Posted By: JulieH Re: Black and white - 10/18/15 01:06 AM
That's great stuff zues. And it's true, it really does not indicate anything other then the feelings they are having at the time. I am someone that always lashes out and acts out based on my feelings of the moment in regards to my husband. It is just so consuming to me in the moment. It's my reality at the time. I guess The more I am hurt, the more I had hurt him.

When you are left feeling sad after a conversation, is there also a motivation?

I did not think you were intentionally closing off to hurt her. I realize you are detached and have to be detached in order to protect yourself. And for all practical purposes you were able to let go. Your comments, "it doesn't matter cause that's not what's in front of me" are comments my very logical husband would say. I wish I could think that way. Its very healthy.
Posted By: SunnyB Re: Black and white - 10/18/15 01:09 AM
Zues, a short diversion to tell you I saw an alligator today. He was just lurking around the edge of the lake, I was a little surprised to see him, I didn't even realize that lake had alligators, certainly wasn't looking for one. There you go.

Back to your serious conversation.
Posted By: SunnyB Re: Black and white - 10/18/15 11:21 PM
I went looking for gators today and spotted another half dozen or so. Amazing what you can find when you look. Hope your weekend was great.
Posted By: gonegrl Re: Black and white - 10/19/15 12:13 AM
Zues, the idea of my feelings indicating H's motivation has intrigued me. What if my feeling is of complete and total WTF? For example, H still regularly brings up that I destroyed his mother's life. Usually while drinking, he will give off this angry vibe and then make a comment like "how can you just act like everything is fine when you've destroyed 20 years of my Mother's life? What is your plan for making that up to her?" My feeling I guess is most closely related to feeling powerless/disbelief/pity. I can't describe it. What is the motivation there? It is these comments above all else that has given me serious doubt as to whether we will ever reconcile.

I believe I know what is going on in his head, but I am curious as to what you would think.
Posted By: Zues126 Re: Black and white - 10/20/15 01:02 AM
tlr, thank you. I like your point about acting on feelings without realizing that feelings are derived from actions. Something we all know to a degree, but it helps to be clear on that when you're feeling negatively.

Phou/Julie, unfortunately I don't have all the answers. Whether you're feeling sadness, disbelief, pity...I think that's just par for the course. In both of these examples I didn't get the impression that WAH was specifically trying to push your buttons, but rather that he was just ranting a little. For the whole "feelings to reflect motivation" it has to be him doing things deliberately to get a rise. I'm not sure that's the case if you're just feeling sad or stunned. The things you two described seemed more global and unintentional. But if you feel like he's taking stabs at you deliberately this chart can be useful.

Of course, right along the time I learned the chart I stopped caring. To some degree. Julie, you mentioned me being detached. It's funny. It's always a spectrum. I mean, I am detached from HER. To a degree I didn't know would be possible. But I'm still dealing with the ramifications of the divorce. Big time. Also, to be fair, when I do have to reply to an email from her it does still pain me because I can still feel the disdain, contempt, criticism, and dismissiveness that she has towards me. It's almost like I don't feel it 99% of the time, but when I have to interact with her and I'm exposed to her then I can still feel her negative energy. And this is unpleasant for me. Which is why I avoid her. To be fair I feel that way about a person I used to be friends with that burned a bridge with me...I see him at pool tournaments now and then and if I have to play a match with him it's very uncomfortable. The difference is I don't have kids with him. But I guess I would agree that I'm getting more detached, but the loss from the divorce and dealing with the legal process is still distressing.

Biggest thing is to know it takes time, but it does pass. I've been doing this coming up on 16 months now and it has gotten easier...but I know when the D is finalized, a few months blow by and I get in my post-D rhythm, and I move into a bigger place and settle in...at that point I think I'll be in really good shape. So it will continue to get much easier over the next 3-12 months. At that point I'll be in for 2 years, officially D, and will be a totally different person than I was during the M. Shoot, I might even be ready to talk to a woman again shocked.

Sunny, thank you for checking in on me. I am touched that you'd keep an alligator watch for me. I wish we could post pictures on here. That would be totally fun. I watched "PAN" with my daughters yesterday. At one point there was an enormous crocodile attacking them and I got super excited. I was like "this is just a day in the life for SunnyB"...I'm glad you took my black and white rants with a grain of salt. Hey, haven't seen any updates on your thread for a while. Please do check in when you can.

Good weekend with the kids. REALLY good. My son has needed some special attention in a key area and hasn't gotten it (I can't give it to him, it takes specific skills I don't have) but I had a friend of mine who's an expert in that field hang out with him on Saturday for 3 hours, I was there too. It was a great time. My friend is going to be his mentor a bit and help him through some things he's working on. It was a delight to see the impact on my son. I know he needed that more than he could vocalize. Meanwhile my mom was in town for some family support and took my daughters out. Then yesterday I spent some good time with my daughters and read to them all a bit. Nothing crazy, just life, but we're rock solid right now.

OK, that's all for now...but DID YOU KNOW? Alligators are a great way to destroy evidence. Remember, it's only murder if they find a body. Otherwise it's just a "Missing Person". Food for thought...;)
Posted By: PigPen Re: Black and white - 10/20/15 01:26 AM
Another solid update Zeus, I think 3 - 12 months is going to fly by for you. My IC today is also a divorced father and he said that it never gets easier to not have his kids, but he's learned new ways to deal with it. I think that's how it will be for all of us, things don't get "easier" they just get different.

You're going to be a completely new man after going through what you've gone through. With kids it's got to be a trial by fire and the fire is definitely forging you. One day at a time my brother.

PP
Posted By: tl2 Re: Black and white - 10/20/15 02:59 AM
Zues,

Great that you're leading your kids through this. That's exactly what/who they need.
Posted By: gonegrl Re: Black and white - 10/20/15 01:20 PM
So Zues, I am reading between the lines here, I should throw my H to an alligator, or his mother? Got it!

You are right, I think for my sitch it was a general rant and not directed at me. I believe my H is still in his own head completely unaware of how any of this is affecting me, he is in his own brand of hell and his mother is keeping him there. He needs to figure this out by himself. I believe some of his other rants were designed to get me angry, but not this one. This one is all him.

I am glad you are detached, sounds like a good place to be. I am working on getting there, its a tough one for me. Making small steps towards progress, with some setbacks. But to hear you describe it is inspiring me.

I love your posts, you bring a different perspective to the table and I learn a lot from you. Thank you and hope you have a great day!
Posted By: SunnyB Re: Black and white - 10/20/15 06:56 PM
Originally Posted By: Zues126
Sunny, thank you for checking in on me. I am touched that you'd keep an alligator watch for me. I wish we could post pictures on here. That would be totally fun. I watched "PAN" with my daughters yesterday. At one point there was an enormous crocodile attacking them and I got super excited. I was like "this is just a day in the life for SunnyB"...I'm glad you took my black and white rants with a grain of salt. Hey, haven't seen any updates on your thread for a while. Please do check in when you can.
Zues, I updated on my thread, not a lot to say, really. Things have happened that I didn't mention, but I hit the basics. I actually saw the gators in Gainesville, not Miami, but it's all FL, right?

I take everyone's rants with a grain of salt, including mine.
Posted By: Zues126 Re: Black and white - 10/21/15 11:13 AM
Yup, after a heck of a year I'm ok not having much to say as well. It's very nice.

You know, these days when I think of marriage I see it as more of a business partnership. Maybe it's because I've been doing B2B sales for a while and have had a chance to work with many owners and see how they operate with their partners. In business the goal is easy, building an operation that brings in revenue. In marriage people have completely different pictures of what the heck they're expecting or steering towards. I know this sounds obvious, but I didn't always appreciate how different views could be. It's like if I say the word 'bicycle' we both picture a bike, but mine might be a different color, a mountain bike vs. a street bike, etc.

Looking back at the end of my M it sure seems like it's destruction was unnecessary. I still do feel like we never really gave it a chance. We jumped in, things got difficult, and they just ran into the ground until she bailed. It would be like opening the shop, losing money, and maxing out all lines of credit, then filing BK and shutting the doors. No thoughts of advertising, marketing, adjusting costs, etc. Just open, fail, close. That's sure how it seems looking back. Of course I tried some things, she tried some things...but compared to how important marriage is and how destructive divorce is it sure doesn't seem like what we tried was proportionate to what was at stake. I say this now from a place of calm, peace, and acceptance...just how it truly looks.

We've talked about not settling, another of my 'black and white' struggles. I am starting to see that I won't settle next time...but I think in the right way. This doesn't mean I won't settle on someone that is human, has flaws, vices, insecurities, quirks, and failings. I am human and expect her to be. But where I realize I won't settle is on their overall commitment to marriage, and the attitude and outlook they bring to it. STBX and I weren't bad people but we definitely lacked some knowledge on how to make an M work. No scorecard, the only differences I see is that I was unwilling to give up and I am willing to accept that I might be wrong. She wasn't as openminded, it was her way or the highway, and I ended up the highway. That might change for her down the road if she learns from life, but not in time for our M. So commitment, humility, and openmindedness are keys to me. And the demonstrated ability to act based on beliefs and character during adversity and not steer by feelings.

This nearly triggered a rant about how it sure seems tough these days, with the breakdown of social tradition coinciding with people's pursuits of their individual happiness...those qualities are not easy to find...but I won't go down this road now. I'll just tickle it and move on.

One thing I'm still learning to accept is that it might not work out anyway. M is so tough, I can be selective as I'd like and I still might end up D again, or in a terrible M, some things are just hard to control. But I can do my part of it, be it taking the time to heal, becoming who I want to be before and in the M, and focusing on myself and my own journey regardless of whether future W is doing what I think is her half. You don't get a dog because of what you expect it will do for you. You get a dog for companionship, to love it, to take care of it. I am starting to think that's a better idea of how to approach a spouse. What they give back is kind of gravy, and not really what your journey is about.

The best part is I'm not concerned about it right now. I am enjoying being single. I CAN'T WAIT to get a bigger place with a pool table. Next July 1. It is a done deal. Nothing will stop me. Oh, yeah, I'll want more room for the kids, etc, etc. But I will have my 9' pool table up. My idea of paradise is the ability to do some drills, play the 10 ball ghost, some straight pool, slow down and shoot a trouble shot for an hour, work on my break, and just listen to music and wrench on my game...that's been half my life, and I miss it terribly...but I play so good, and I think this experience has toughened me up. I think once I start hitting balls again I can get to a level that's more solid than it was before. Not necessarily a better top gear (which is almost impossible), but just steadier, deeper, more consistent, and able to withstand more pressure more of the time. I truly feel my best days are ahead of me, and I am looking forward to testing myself and winning in some big arenas.

Maybe I take a few years this way before I think about a partner. Maybe I decide this is better for me and I stay solo for decades or for the count. Maybe someone really surprises me and leads me to believe that there is a woman out there I could partner with. But I'm not looking, and I feel happier and more at peace than I have...ever? Wow. That's pretty cool. I guess that's my reward for being appreciative of what I have in my life. Now all I need is that pool table...;)
Posted By: SunnyB Re: Black and white - 10/21/15 01:08 PM
Originally Posted By: Zues126
You know, these days when I think of marriage I see it as more of a business partnership.
Zues, my M was a business partnership, a good one. It still is. It's not enough. I loved STBX, I still do, but I didn't have a deep emotional connection with him, and although our physical connection was good, it was frequent, it wasn't what I wanted, we never got there after 25 years. Obviously, something was missing for him, too, he criticized me for 20 years and then left. I almost said "and then cheated and left" but truth is, this isn't the first time he was unfaithful, it was just the first time it was so in my face that I admitted it.

I'm not disputing that a M needs to have a good business partnership model, I think a lot of people go the other way, they think that just because they are head over heels in love then it will all work out. I don't believe that for a second, I tried that one also. I know that going forward, I'm looking for both.
Posted By: gonegrl Re: Black and white - 10/21/15 02:03 PM
Zues, I think your plan sounds great. I need to find my equivalent of a pool table and follow in your foot steps. I can totally picture you in your pool room, music playing, hours passing by as you just do your thing.

Your comment about the "business partnership" made me think of arranged marriages. I don't know the statistics, but I've heard they are more successful than "romantic marriages" so maybe you have a point there. But I do think you need some of both- the shared vision and the emotional connection.
Posted By: Zues126 Re: Black and white - 10/21/15 02:32 PM
Thanks guys. I have a few more thoughts (not conclusions) on this.

Phou, I've always idealized arranged marriages. Traditions. Social expectation to do your part in your family and community. I think this was the glue that held families together for so long. It seems like when it wasn't a choice of who to partner with, or whether you stuck it out...that's when people decided to appreciate what they had, and make the best of it.

Now, you could argue that it kept people together in low quality relationships. I've tried hard to look at the exaltation of personal happiness and freedom in our culture, and the divorce rate, as a positive- in that it forces people to put together stronger marriages because people simply won't settle and will walk away if they aren't happy. We are all here trying to grow as people in part due to the loss of our M's, a motivation we might not have had if our spouses had stuck it out. So the positive is that maybe this will prompt us to become better people, capable of better relationships. You could almost argue that the divorce rate is a good thing. I don't buy it, but it's not black and white smile

As for what's possible, two thoughts on why I am afraid of expecting too much. One is that the reason people walk from marriages is because they feel they can do (and deserve) "better". Anymore when I hear people describe the dream relationship they want I tend to assume these are tomorrow's WAS's because it's just not possible. Also, I think maybe being on these forums for 15 months has just convinced me that marriage is impossible in general, and it's only a matter of time before your partner pulls the plug.

My feel is that the majority of M's end in divorce, then you've got those permanently separated, those that resign themselves to cohabiting, and those that stay married and nag and disrespect one another. I've assumed that the best a marriage can be would be a comfortable working partnership, where there are some disappointments, gripes, unfulfilled desires, resentments, irritants, and pain points...but where those are managed, and offset by some positives...and that the result is an overall effective partnership that isn't unbearable for too many years at a time...and that in the middle of that acceptance of mediocrity comes the occasional surprising joy of having a companion through the hardship of life, or comes a moment when you do get a flash of what you desire, or a glimmer of realizing your spouse understands you and cares for you a bit more than you thought. I tend to think that's what's possible, and desiring more is just being unappreciative of what's possible and setting ourselves up for failure. I tend to think in this world we are destined to be lonely, misunderstood, unfulfilled, and suffering...and that joy is the byproduct of accepting this fact and finding meaning in our toil.

Maybe if there were marriage forums where people have these great marriages, with deep emotional connections, fulfilling sex lives, tremendous mutual respect, and spiritual connections...maybe I would believe that this unicorn existed. I'd love to read those forums, to see people that have achieved this, to hear them talk about their partners, to see how they work through the challenges. Because from where I sit it doesn't look achievable. And I think I could learn a lot from those people. Does anyone know of those forums?

This is great conversation. Thanks for participating. I'm trying not to be black and white, and dare myself to do great things in my life, without setting myself up for being unappreciative of what you can get in this life.

And yes, Phou, it is truly my shangri-la to be at a pool table. Play some music, take a shot that is difficult, then break it down, break it down, break it down, until it starts coming easier. In fact, my favorite memory was one particular shot. A long diagonal shot across the 9', bridged from 3 inches off the rail so I was jacked up (elevated cue), trying to make the ball and draw the cueball (backspin) so the cueball came back to where it started. In the beginning I shot the shot from the headstring (the kitchen line). Then I backed it up to the first diamond. Then I practiced from the rail but just stopping the ball, not drawing back. I did 25 shots from each position. Every day. For 3 months. At the end of three months I started hitting the shot right, and getting the cueball to run STRAIGHT back right through where my cuestick followed through. I did it again. Then again. It was like I won the lottery. I was so happy I did it for hours. Then I woke up early the next morning and ran downstairs to see if I could still do it or if it went away. I could still do it. smile This makes me happy.
Posted By: gonegrl Re: Black and white - 10/21/15 04:31 PM
Zues, you almost convinced me to buy a pool table, I can visualize you playing and your excitement is contagious! Although in my house it would probably soon be overtaken by legos. The only thing I have come close to having that passion for is hot yoga, which as I get older has to get less hot because I get dizzy, but I really should get back into it. To work on the postures and every day get a little bit closer to achieving a pose I couldn't do before, that was fun. Not that I can hustle anyone with my yoga moves though, lol!

I think the perfect ideal marriage does not exist anywhere but in movies and our dreams. And if there was a forum devoted to the few that might exist, I think we'd all feel less inspired by it and more hopeless about our own situations. I don't mean us DB'ers, I mean people in general. I think we'd look at it and say "That's not what I have, it must be my spouse's fault, I deserve better". It is human nature. We do that anyway, when comparing ourselves to others without even realizing what other's have or do not have. Pre BD I honestly thought most of my friends were happy. Since then, I have opened up and really talked to the people around me, only to find out that most people have struggles, and the ones who are "happy" are content, not really "happy." People project a certain image, on FaceBook, in casual conversation, just in general, people seem happy and managing and pulled together.

I have talked freely on this forum about my 14 year old daughter. I have no clue how I am going to survive the next few years with her. Her attitude is beyond awful, her stress is out of control and she is verbally abusive. I go on FB and all of my friends post their kids are on honor roll, going to Disney for vacation, kids just won some track meet, etc etc etc. I want to get on there and say "D14 just went to school 3 days in a row! She ate dinner without screaming! We rode in a car together for 30 minutes without having to pull over because of her screaming at me." But I couldn't, and while most of my friends know I struggle with her, they have NO idea the extent.

Same with marriages. Even now, most of my friends know we are struggling. I have a couple of friends who know the details. But most people think we are in counseling and assume that means we are working it out. Most people do not know the depths of my pain, and obviously, I didn't know the depths of H's pain pre-BD and I was married to him. I knew my MIL was in pain and I chose to view that as a combative situation instead of with compassion. And that has come back to bite me in the ass a million times over.

It is easy to assume that "most" people are fine, but I am learning that many, many of us are not. That is one thing this whole experience has taught me, opened my eyes big time to the amount of suffering and struggling that goes on all around me, and made me a much more compassionate and less judgmental person.

Another thing about arranged marriages, I think they are usually within cultures where extended family is so important, so the marriage, yes, is important, but has the support of both sides of the family and the expectation that it will work. At least in my case, I have in laws actively trying to "put me in my place" (yes they have used that term). In our culture the whole responsibility for the M rests on the H and the W and its just them against the world, which is hard. In other cultures, the families come together. Unless I have a misconception about other cultures, that is my impression.

On another topic, Zues, I have looked at your post several times, the one where you posted your mother's letter to her H, and all I can say is wow. That letter has resonated with me, and really opened my eyes to the fact that this is exactly how I think, and how I always have thought. I used to wonder why it is that H has so many complaints about me, and what is wrong with me that I have just as many about him but I don't talk about them? I used to wonder if I was setting the bar too low, or just letting myself be a doormat. Even in MC, H will spend half an hour reciting my faults, and I sit there thinking "I could say the same exact things about him" and then when it i my turn to say anything I just say "I am sorry." I don't go there and week after week I wonder why, I just don't have it in me to recite his faults. Once I read your mother's letter I realized that there is nothing wrong with me, it is my strength. It isn't because I think I don't deserve better, it isn't because I am afraid to lose him. It is because I don't look for weakness in people, and I never expected for him to work on his flaws to solve my problems. Your mother put that so well into words. So thank you for sharing that letter.
Posted By: SunnyB Re: Black and white - 10/21/15 08:31 PM
Originally Posted By: Zues126
You could almost argue that the divorce rate is a good thing. I don't buy it, but it's not black and white smile
Zues, you should let that sense of humor out more often. I like it.

Photo, several months ago when I was still struggling with "D" being emblazoned like the scarlett letter on my shirt, my IC commented that when some of my friends found out, they might be envious. That was incomprehensible to me, I was sure I'd be shamed and outcast when people found out my M had failed. And then people started talking to me, and it was incredible what's inside marriages that looked happy from the outside. In a way, it make me think my STBX is an even bigger idiot than I thought, because our M was better than those. And in a way, it made me a scared that I could ever find something great for my future. I really don't know anymore, but all I can do at this point is move forward.
Posted By: Ancaire Re: Black and white - 10/21/15 08:42 PM
Sunny, I love that! "All I can do is move forward." I don't know what is happening anymore, don't know if I care...but really; I can stay stuck with these awful feelings, or begin to move forward. I had this idea I could save H from himself. He doesn't want to be saved, and I need to be worrying about myself.

I am choosing to heal and move forward.

End of hijack, Zues. smile
Posted By: Avanti Re: Black and white - 10/21/15 10:32 PM
What has become clear to me, unfortunately only recently, is that a good M is made up of two people who consciously decide to make it great. They think about how to achieve the things they want to and then discuss it with one another, a bit like the business analogy you used earlier.

Because I didn't get a manual when we left the church on our wedding day I thought that everything just kind of worked without having to think about it and the feelings that I had during limerence of almost being able to mind read my W would continue forever. When things go tough we just built up a whole load of resentment until it got so big that we couldn't see one another anymore but it kept on growing.

The next R that I step into will not be weighed down with, it'll all just magically work, I'll be constantly looking for us to review what we can do to make our lives and R that much better. It all sounds a little lacking in spontaneity so I'll be sure to add some of that every so often to ensure we the spark going.
Posted By: Maybell Re: Black and white - 10/24/15 01:31 PM
Referring to what Sunny said:

I've been paying really close attention to my friends' marriages, because I want to know what makes a marriage work. It appears it's what she said, basically. They're not magic. They're commitment, a willingness to spend time continually getting to know one another, consideration, and low expectations.

In short, I think, a happy marriage is being able to navigate real life by yourself in an unselfish manner, but closer to the person next to you than to anybody else.

Love and sex and fireworks are things you get when you communicate what they look like to the person you're married to -- and that person is willing to receive the communication.

Now that we've been through this process, we understand the importance of communicating clearly, and hopefully we've gained some skills at it. The trick is fiinding a person willing and able to reciprocate.
Posted By: JulieH Re: Black and white - 10/24/15 05:42 PM
Hi zues,

Hope you and your family are well. I also hope your mom is doing ok. Thanks for posting on my thread, even when things are so tough for you.
Posted By: SunnyB Re: Black and white - 10/26/15 02:03 PM
OK, Zues, we've come to the part of the week where I ask you how your weekend was......so...

How was your weekend, Zues? How are the kids? How are things coming along legally?

My son entered a photo in a contest, didn't win, but placed. Guess what the subject matter was?
Posted By: Zues126 Re: Black and white - 10/26/15 06:53 PM
Originally Posted By: SunnyB

How was your weekend, Zues? How are the kids? How are things coming along legally?

My son entered a photo in a contest, didn't win, but placed. Guess what the subject matter was?


Alligators!!!!!! Great choice by him if I do say so myself smile

OK, didn't have the children this weekend so no updates there just yet...other than I'm working on getting s11 the stuff he needs for his project we're going to work on.

Court- some stuff went down today. Just got back from court. Not really ready to talk about it yet. I will soon. Instead for now I'll talk about something that makes me happy.

I played pool on Saturday and it was mediocre. One thing that is REALLY disturbing to me is that I don't recognize myself when I look in the mirror.

In my MIND I picture myself as a world class player. Physically. Mentally. My motivation and focus is unequaled by anyone, anywhere. I have a laser focus on a goal that I'm striving for. Every day I wake up with limitless energy and push forward towards that goal. Adversity just pours gas on the fire and makes me hungrier. I see obstacles as stepping stones to achieve because the fastest route to my target is straight through the challenges that lay in the way. I need to succeed, failure simply isn't an option, and life and death doesn't even begin to describe how important it is to get there.

But when I look at REALITY that's not what I see. I look like a shell of myself. Most days I have a hard time getting out of bed in the morning. I am perpetually fatigued. My goals are murky and look like chores. Adversity is discouraging, something I deal with reluctantly. I can barely keep up with life's demands. I am not in the best physical shape and struggling to keep working out. Sloppy, mediocre, disengaged...(shudder) 'average'.

This just doesn't work for me. That's not ok. It may be ok for others, but it's not what I'm here to do. I know what I'm here to do. I'm not quitting competition, and the idea of accepting mediocrity with excuses about how "I'm a dad now, I have to support a family, I can't put into it what I used to", well, read my original post about black and white. I'm not interested in a story about why I'm some busted out runner up. No thanks.

I played Saturday, it was the first time since the last tournament two weeks ago. I played the guy I split those last two tournaments with for some money. Well, I got him down 4 racks and then he asked to double the bet and he'd play 2 more racks. He fought like a lion and won them both to win his money back.

Afterwards I felt very dissatisfied. I didn't play poorly by any stretch. Heck, I outplayed him by 2 racks on the day, didn't do anything 'wrong' really, and didn't get beat. But *I* know what I *DIDN'T* do. I didn't play like the champion I believe I am. I didn't play like it was life or death. I didn't play like it was a game of inches, like the reason the universe was created was for me to shoot *this shot*. I played like a middle aged out of shape salesman going through the motions. At least that's how I felt compared to how I want to perform.

So yesterday I decided to enter a weekly tournament. It was a small event, but there were 3 players in the field that were top 5 in the midwest, so it was tough. I won my first match against one of those top players. Second match was against a guy I have a big edge over, but he got a huge lead and shot his best, it was a really gritty set and I barely got there. Then I played one of the other champions, this guy that is playing the game as well as it can be played right now. He is young, hungry, just realizing how good he is playing, and has no weaknesses. Smooth, confident, pocketing balls effortlessly, cueball on a string, great break shot, mentally tough. He just beat a pro player out of a few thousand a month ago in a money game. We actually played in the state championship in January, I beat him 7-0, he beat me 7-0, then I beat him 7-0 in the last round and won the title. So we respect each other and have even played on teams together. But when we play we want to win. Well, that respect for his game motivated me to play my hardest...and I ended up zoning out, COMPLETE trans, and beat him 7-0. He said "just like last time" and congratulated me.

Next thing you know I'm in the finals and have to be beat twice (double elimination). I end up playing the guy I beat first round. Figures, I knew it would come down to us three. Anyway, last time we played was a couple of months ago, he did double dip me in the finals of a regional event. I really didn't want that to happen again. But unfortunately something bad happened- he beat me to the punch on solving the rack. Non-pool players don't really understand, but at the highest levels no one really makes mistakes so the game comes down to getting opportunities. Most opportunities come from the break. And racking is half the battle. With old balls, different sized balls from mismatched sets, and divots in the spot, this can be a challenge. Figuring out the speed to break, which side of the table to break from, where on the spot to rack the balls...it's a big part of the game. It's not just 'hit 'em hard and hope'. Well, he SOLVED the racking/breaking game and was draining the wing ball in the same corner every time, and the 9 ball (we were playing 9 ball) kept hanging near the same corner. He has 4 'short racks' in the first set, meaning he'd make one shot then shoot a combo on the 9 ball to win. So 4 games where he'd break and tap in the 9. Meanwhile I'm dry breaking, getting hooked, and having to battle through tough layouts for each of my racks. We still went 5-5 but then he got a shot and ran 2 racks and out to close out the first set.

This felt so unfair. It is so frustrating. It is so discouraging. I can't even tell you. I want to win more than anything, more than anything I can't accept being the fat piece of crap with a story about why I lost, consoling myself with 2nd place because it was pretty close while knowing I am just reaping a residual off the skills I developed back when I was a real player. NO! I can't allow that! BUT- there was nothing I could do, because he continued to outbreak me and I couldn't get chances at the table. I felt at the bottom of a pit of despair, it was so terrible.

But then I realized- when you compete, there's always a wild card. Nothing goes according plan all the time. Sometimes your tip comes off and you have to play with a back up shaft you're not as comfortable with. One time a referee put me and my opponent on a 30 second shot clock to speed up the match which was a major distraction under the pressure of the last game. Sometimes the referee makes a bad call and you have to deal with it. Sometimes someone in the crowd is loudly rooting or betting against you. Whatever. Sometimes THING COME UP, and when they do you have to deal with them. Even when they're unfair.

I realized I had to deal with this break. And I couldn't stop him, and I couldn't duplicate his results (I was trying!), but I COULD make up my mind not to let it get to me. And not to allow myself an excuse to lose. I decided that the real tournament was about THIS. *NOTE*: It wasn't my first match, it wasn't all those shots I made, it wasn't beating the other champ 7-0, it wasn't running all of the tables I ran to get here. It was THIS. Dealing with THIS. THIS was the whole tournament. THIS would determine if I was a champion or a story teller.

So I handled it. I ratcheted up the intensity to another level, denied any negative thoughts whatsoever, and played every stroke with the purpose of overcoming this obstacle. And lo and behold, I got some chances, and he made a fumble, and I NEVER did, I played perfect on and on and on until finally I got the chance I needed and gunned those round suckers off the table to notch up the last game.

After that there were some congratulations, some pictures, some payouts, and me and my opponent shaking hands with a very, very mutual respect which we've shared for years. And a ride home. Very anticlimactic.

But look guys. I realize that I'm not a champion. Nor am I a fat sack of crap. I have a little of each in me. I'll never be one or the other. It's not black or white wink. BUT- I'll tell you this...my journey is about finding the champion within me and bringing it out to the best of my ability. This was a good win for me because I realized I haven't lost it...and it makes me hungrier to bring that out again and again going forward.

Thanks for asking, listening, and for sharing some of this with me. You guys are very special to me.
Posted By: PigPen Re: Black and white - 10/26/15 06:57 PM
Originally Posted By: Zues126


But look guys. I realize that I'm not a champion. Nor am I a fat sack of crap. I have a little of each in me. I'll never be one or the other. It's not black or white wink. BUT- I'll tell you this...my journey is about finding the champion within me and bringing it out to the best of my ability. This was a good win for me because I realized I haven't lost it...and it makes me hungrier to bring that out again and again going forward.

Thanks for asking, listening, and for sharing some of this with me. You guys are very special to me.


Nothing's black and white Z, especially with competition. Competing is truly one of the best opportunities to practice a lack of control because while you may want to control every aspect of it, stuff happens. You miss a shot that you could make blindfolded, you get the flu, your opponent plays the game of his life. Just happens.

Loved reading all of this, but especially that last paragraph. There will always be a champion in you no matter how you play, or what your W does, or what happens next in your life.

Great writing,

PP
Posted By: SunnyB Re: Black and white - 10/26/15 09:34 PM
I loved reading your update, your pool stories are always intense and I can tell they make you happy. Agree with PP that the last paragraph is great, shades of Zues.

So.....legal stuff? An overview, please, just to get it out there? That's part of the journey, too.
Posted By: Ancaire Re: Black and white - 10/27/15 12:42 AM
I needed this today, Z. Thanks for sharing your insight!
Posted By: gonegrl Re: Black and white - 10/27/15 01:16 AM
Z, you make me want to be a champion at something. I don't know what, but I need to figure it out. You are very inspirational!
Posted By: Zues126 Re: Black and white - 10/31/15 01:49 AM
Hey guys, sorry for the delay. Was on the road a few days for work and kids tonight. Been a whirlwind.

Court was just a meet and greet with the judge, and then we are scheduling an evaluation with a court social service to make a recommendation about parenting time. I am to prepare a statement describing our background, our children, my relationship with them, etc.

I'm not even sure what to say about it. When I was in the court building I didn't say a word. My L did the talking for me. I felt like everyone else was an alien because it was so strange to me that everyone else goes along with this like it's ok. That I literally have to make a case in court as to why I should raise my children. I started picturing them with alien tentacles coming out of their backs. I sometimes feel like I'm alone on this planet and either I'm totally insane or everyone else is.

I'm not sure exactly what I'm supposed to do at this evaluation. My L said she'd get me some talking points and review with me. I told her I could stick to facts, but I'd be a bit sterile. She said the courts need to see the real me. I said that's not a good idea because the real me thinks that everyone in this building is a criminal that will one day be regarded as the worst scourge since the Nazis and that if the social services people really wanted to know me they wouldn't put me in a room with a woman that made me more uncomfortable than sitting waist deep in a pit of snakes and interrogate me with the threat of losing my children hanging over my head...not exactly my normal 'day in the life'.

But I am a game player, I can do pretty much anything, so I'll review the talking points and put on a dog and pony show. I'll get some time with my children, not as much as I want, because anything less than 100% is a joke. But that's fine. My dad told me "it'll be ok". I said "it won't, but I can handle it until I die".

I talked to my friend tonight. I said it helps to understand nothing is really ours. Everything is so fleeting. We want to go out and get this life the way we want it, then hold on to it tight like it belongs to us. It doesn't. It's really on loan from God. Eventually everything will be taken away, little by little. Some people have some things a bit longer, but eventually we all lose it all. But that's only an issue if we feel we need everything forever. If we can accept that it's a loan maybe we can just enjoy what we have while we have it, and hold things a little more lightly. So my wife was taken back a little sooner than I expected, living with my kids was revoked...but...there are always things to be grateful for as well, so I focus on them.

One funny thing, I was reading a story in which a man was talking about traditional roles from the 40s and 50s. He was talking about how men used to go out and cheat on their wives, and their wives would basically look the other way and be appreciative that their husbands came home to them and provided for the family. This was in addition to putting up with a lot of other abuse and alcoholism. Yes, women put up with too much...but somehow it seems things shifted so far, that now they won't put up with anything. It's like everyone is on a quest for personal growth and thinks the goal is to grow, grow, grow, and heaven forbid anyone disagrees with them or has a different view, that must mean the other person is emotionally immature and underdeveloped, can't let that get in the way of their happiness and growth. That's why I hesitate with the growth kick around the DB forums...I LOVE that we do healthy things out of our losses, but I HATE the idea that somehow if we don't experience a rebirth we aren't worthy to be in an R. A newcomer said something about "driving his WAW away" and a vet agreed with his perspective...I do not...I agree with focusing on ourselves because there's no productive alternative, not because we're broken as we are.

Bottom line, when my buddy asked me if I'd ever trust a woman again or if I'd want a pre-nup I said "forget the prenuptual, I'd want her to drink a vial of poison that only I had the antidote to that had to be administered daily"...

So I can see there's a lot of anger I'm still working through. It doesn't feel like anger, not like I'm burning hot. Now it's more disgust with anyone related to the legal process, and repulsion for anyone that acts in ways that indicate they share these outlooks. But that's ok. Once I purge this crap out of my system I feel pretty serene and appreciative most of the day. I showed my kids a magic trick. We played a game of chess. We had a bowl of ice cream. We read together. Whatever happens I'll know I did my best and appreciated what came my way. Goodnight all.
Posted By: Zues126 Re: Black and white - 10/31/15 01:59 AM
PS- Maybell, it's been a long time! I didn't mean to leave you hanging, I just dropped the ball on replying. I tracked you down, I look forward to catching up on your sitch.

Sunny, looks like you're heading that way too soon.

Well gang, it's been a heck of a ride. I'll probably see you on the flip side shortly, but if I get lost in the shuffle thank you all for making it memorable!
Posted By: JellyB Re: Black and white - 10/31/15 02:57 AM
Hey lovely Zues.... Thanks for popping by my thread....I'm unlikely to disappear completely as long as there are a few souls here I connect too ...you my friend are one....hugs to you dear Zues...xxx
Posted By: Ancaire Re: Black and white - 10/31/15 03:15 AM
Zeus, I share your unhappiness with the demise of marriages. It's so easy now to change your mind and just walk away, that it makes me wonder why we even bother. Should we just use better and richer in our vows, understanding that the "for worse" part is a deal breaker?

I'm so sick and tired of hearing "you need to be happy". Well, yes, but people need to find happiness inside, not go looking for it elsewhere. The kids, no matter what age, pay a huge price when a marriage breaks down. I believe M is a sacred union. If I make a vow to God, I'm going to make sure He's okay with me breaking that vow. Even after all I've been through, I've not gotten an okay to give up. I understand my role for now is prayer and support.

D is rampant. Chasing happiness is widely accepted and celebrated as a reason for destroying a family. Affairs are common and overlooked/excused by most everyone. We're headed for big trouble as a society...or maybe we're already there. I don't know if I will ever trust again. It seems like I'd be an idiot to do so.

Regarding personal growth, you may be reading too much into a popular catch-phrase. Most of us have areas we need to improve. Doing work on those areas and making improvements is personal growth. What is it that bugs you? Do you hear people talking about it, but not really working on it?

The goal of Christianity should be one of selfLESSness. Doing what is best for others, thus making yourself happy. I believe most of us don't really get the concept. Finding joy in sacrifice? Putting your spouse and kids first?

Wait! What about ME? ME, ME, ME!!! We're a bunch of perpetual teenagers. How very sad.

I've ranted for today...feel a little better. Thanks, Zeus! wink
Posted By: gr8ful3 Re: Black and white - 11/10/15 04:29 AM
There was this wonderful quote that I read from Ralph Waldo Emerson that I think sums it up beautifully

The purpose of life is not to be happy. It is to be useful, to be honorable, to be compassionate , to have it make some difference that you have lived and lived well.

I posted this on my FB page and I had a few people say, but what about happiness! Of course, we all want to be happy, but that is not our life PURPOSE.

Hugs

Gr8ful
Posted By: SunnyB Re: Black and white - 11/12/15 01:05 AM
Originally Posted By: Zues126
Sunny, looks like you're heading that way too soon!
I had a financial meeting this morning and depending on how the group meeting goes next week, we could have things wrapped up and an agreement ready to be signed in a few weeks. We would likely delay in the actual filing until January for tax reasons. I'm more than a year and a half into this, it's not too soon.
Posted By: Zues126 Re: Black and white - 11/20/15 04:48 AM
I've noticed a common theme today in all my walks of life. Marriage. Sales. Management.

When I was a manager I was concerned about being the a-hole boss. In various degrees the first 2-3 years I was too concerned. I found that it didn't work. If I was afraid of conflict. If I was afraid of being perceived as a 'bad boss'. If I was afraid of making tough decisions that would result in people saying bad things about me in the break room. If I was afraid that an employee wouldn't feel I was treating them fairly when I had to admonish disciplinary action. If any of those things- they would take advantage. They would bully me around and I would be enabling them. Similarly, the more I showed I cared about how they felt, the more I tried to ensure they had a voice in the work place, the more I wanted to provide a good environment- the more entitled, demanding, and dissatisfied they became. Finally I said F it and just ran the ship the way I believed best. I heard them out. I listened to their voices. I still cared. But I took my role as leader. They had voices, but I had the deciding voice, and if they didn't like it they could work somewhere else. Guess when the culture and morale on my team peaked out?

Similarly in my marriage. I am so powerful sometimes with who I am and how I live, I was terrified of running STBX over, and as a result I was far too timid. Sandi says all wives test their husbands. I failed the test. I was so afraid of being the abusive, controlling, insensitive husband, that instead I became the nice guy, and let her lead in many ways so she couldn't say I ran her over. The result- she probably felt I was weak and lost respect for me. And of course she's more convinced than ever that I was the abusive husband.

Well, I've learned that lesson once again in my new role (I started a year ago but it's such a tough gig I'm only now starting to leave my 'new' qualifier behind). I work in B2B sales, and it's brutal. Ethics in business is very important to me, and I've been working very hard to do things the right way when others in the industry don't. Yet no matter how hard I try, customers continue to play the victim card. They act like I overcharged. Or I didn't deliver as much value as they expected. Or I should be waiting on them hand and foot. Or they get pissy and harass me about their billing. Or they want to cancel non-cancellable contracts. And the whole time they have this attitude like I am the big bad corporation taking advantage of the small independent business owners that are building America. And you know what? I finally realized this week it is total BS. I am absolutely killing myself to be fair, high integrity, to go above and beyond in delivering, making great personal sacrifices to leave my title at the door and do what I can to help them on their journey...and it's never enough. The fact is that the majority of small business owners fail and when they struggle they start lashing out at anyone that is charging them for a service. I've had a few major meltdowns in the last month and I beat myself up and beat myself up and kept trying to figure out what more I can do, and I'm finally realizing- nothing! I did it right, I would do it the same again, and some people are just going to have problems.

I am so fed up. I made up my mind I just don't care anymore. Now- I will still be true to myself. I will act with integrity, provide value, and deliver what I say. But I won't do that with the expectation they will be appreciative, that they will refer me business, or even that they will be fair. Frankly I am going into every business arrangement optimistic and with the hope that we develop a great working partnership...but also with my eyes open to the possibility we will end up in court. I will no longer be afraid of that, and I won't even feel bad about it. I am operating the way I am not so they will reciprocate, but because I believe it's the right thing to do. And if I do end up in court I will no longer blame myself because I know how much care I bring.

I'm sure there are balances, it's not black and white...but for me, I was so far on the super sensitive side this is the direction I must go. It's been a hell of a 3 months, the last 6 weeks were hell, and the last 2 weeks have been beyond hell. I've had some stuff melt down to a degree that I haven't seen before in my career. Bad fallouts. Big losses. Reputational damage. Loss of income for me. And a big loss for the business owner. And you know what? I'm coming out the other side saying 'ok then, if this is the deep end of the pool and y'all want to play tough, then I guess the gloves are coming off and I'm going to knock some people out, because there's only one possible outcome, that is me getting it done, so if you want it rough, it will be rough.' Again, for those that want to play nice I'll play nice, but I'm not afraid of using the strength God gave me. I'm going to get to the top the right way, and no punk that wants to play victim is going to stop me from setting some records.

I haven't posted for a while but wanted to share this for Julie H and all the other LBS's that are concerned about their WAS. You know what? Hell with them. Do what you need to do for YOU. Detach. GAL. 180. Absolutely. But walking on eggshells because you are afraid of conflict or because you are measuring your personal growth with their reactions? BS. You know what you did. You know who you are. You know what you need to work on. Detachment means you are free to do that without second guessing yourself. By all means reflect, be considerate, and strive to grow. But YOU measure that. End of story.
Posted By: JulieH Re: Black and white - 11/20/15 05:22 AM
smile

Thank you!
Posted By: isittoolate Re: Black and white - 11/20/15 08:01 AM
Quote:
I haven't posted for a while but wanted to share this for Julie H and all the other LBS's that are concerned about their WAS. You know what? Hell with them. Do what you need to do for YOU. Detach. GAL. 180. Absolutely. But walking on eggshells because you are afraid of conflict or because you are measuring your personal growth with their reactions? BS. You know what you did. You know who you are. You know what you need to work on. Detachment means you are free to do that without second guessing yourself. By all means reflect, be considerate, and strive to grow. But YOU measure that. End of story.


I needed to hear these wise wise words, Thanks a lot! Zeus
Posted By: SunnyB Re: Black and white - 11/23/15 01:23 AM
Zues, I'm sorry the last few weeks have been so hard. I know you'll be OK, you know you'll be OK, but I wish it wasn't so difficult for you right now. I can hear the pain and frustration and I can't really do anything to help you because we speak in code and nuances. But I'm sending good vibes your way, do you feel it? wink
Posted By: Zues126 Re: Black and white - 11/23/15 02:16 AM
Thanks for dropping by and for the ray of Florida sunshine! It's getting cold up here in MN and it's nice to know there are still alligators by the pond elsewhere.

I have realized that much of my exhaustion comes from the boulder I am carrying. The same that many of you are as well. It is the boulder of pain, fear, and anger. It has been so long. So long that I sometimes don't realize I am carrying it, because it just seems like this is the way life is. And to be fair I have battled some demons all of my life. Despair has always been something I've had to fend off. I vividly remember things being dark as a child, and dark during my marriage. I remind myself of this because I don't think the divorce is necessarily at the center, but rather the current weapon this demon has chosen to attack with. The result is that day after day I am exhausted, and I realize now that much of my energy is just in fighting this battle in the background at all times. Like a computer that runs slow because of a virus scan. I am perpetually tired. Barely able to keep up with life's demands. Instead of bubbling with creative energy and making miracles happen in my world, I am staggering around and trying to keep from collapsing. And it's been an awfully long time since I've felt free of this. I've even thought about medicating just to get a break, but it just doesn't appeal to me. I know the way out of this has to be through good decisions, and even if my lot in life is to suffer for some reason, at least I'll be able to sleep at night knowing I walked the path as best I could.

This ties into my prior post. I realize that part of my problem is which customers I am working with. In any business there is a bell curve of problem customers and customers that will be a pleasure to work with. The funny thing is the customers that are the worst to work with are the hardest to do business with. They have the fewest needs, the smallest budget, and in general are less professional and cause more drama. Bigger corporations have deeper needs, professionals designated to work with their business partners, and the profitability is quite a bit higher. So really the answer to my work problems is pretty clear- put more energy into developing relationships that will allow me to spend more time with the right customers. This will increase my job satisfaction and income substantially.

The hard part is making that happen. It takes a lot of energy, and it involves getting way out of your comfort zone. Discipline, thick skin, and persistence. The catch 22 is that you need to do this the most when you don't feel like doing it at all. If I had the business humming along great and I was on cloud 9 I would be more positive and it wouldn't be so hard to keep the machine running. But when you're broken and on your back and don't feel like getting out of bed it's hard to throw yourself into a scary situation and take on tough battles. Particularly when you don't HAVE to. What I mean is that I'm still doing "ok", meeting my goals, paying my bills. So there is nothing forcing me to do this other than not wanting to accept mediocrity, and knowing that this is who I am, what I am here to do, and that it will bring financial and personal rewards that I want to achieve. I see what needs to be done. It is hard. I don't want to have to do it right now. But you have to make the fire before you get the smoke. Feelings aside, I know I need to take this on.

So the question is how can I overcome this? Well, clearly it's just a matter of taking action. I get this. So when I tell you what I'm about to tell you, don't think I'm looking for a shortcut. It's really not. It's actually me trying to figure out what resources I need to involve to accomplish my targets.

Tomorrow morning I'm meeting with my hypnotist. I say 'mine', I met with her once before about 5 years ago for help with my pool game. Let me immediately dispel the myth of what I'm trying to accomplish. A hypnotist doesn't really DO anything. It's not like I'm being programmed to be a pool playing machine, or a sales machine. For those who haven't done this, consider it a very powerful guided meditation. She is going to hypnotize me and make a recording that I can listen to each morning. Maybe 20 minutes long. The content will be about gradually opening up the closet door and seeing the pain, the fear, the anger, really experiencing all of it...then choosing to let it go for the day, and see what's left in it's place. Then thinking about my goals. What I am trying to accomplish. Seeing it crystal clear. Thinking about the steps I will need to take to accomplish them. Then recognizing the doubts and fears that I will be faced with along the way. Finally picturing myself choosing to accept those fears and release those fears. Picturing myself doing this, and taking the actions I need to take. Then feeling the success that comes, both financial and personal, but mostly the unencumbered feeling that comes from letting this go and taking control over this part of my life. Finally there will be something in there about ramping up my energy levels. Feeling the excitement and passion that is there when the fears are gone. And letting that build so that it overpowers any negative emotions in my way, and that gets me tingling, ready to spring out of bet, and let loose that energy to make each day impactful.

At least this is my rough outline. I'll let her give me feedback.

The point is that right now I live in fear alot, am quite tired, and have a hard time getting out of bed in the morning. My hope is that instead of having to jump right into the shower and start reacting to my day- by listening to this each morning I will be able to have a few minutes under my covers, but dealing with the things that I'm fighting with, and building up my momentum, so that when the recording is over I feel present, unburdened, and ready to start making great things happen.

I have used a recording for my pool playing in the past. It was very powerful because it allowed me some very good checkpoints where I could regroup and get refocused and refreshed in between a lot of high pressure and fatiguing matches. I am optimistic that this can be an aide in helping me fight my fights. Again, ultimately I have to do what I have to do. It will be all me doing it. As I said, this is just a little help to get started on the path, like a workout partner helps get that first step of showing up to the gym accomplished.

Anyway that appointment is tomorrow. I'll let you know how the week goes.

I know, I know, if I have time left in the recording I'll make sure she hypnotizes me so that every time a telephone rings I think I'm an alligator... wink
Posted By: Fogg Re: Black and white - 11/23/15 02:36 AM
Interesting stuff Zues, curious to hear how well it works. Good luck.
Posted By: SunnyB Re: Black and white - 11/26/15 06:20 PM
Happy Thanksgiving, Zues. I hope you are spending it with people you love.
Posted By: Zues126 Re: Black and white - 11/26/15 06:58 PM
Thanks Sunny! Happy Thanksgiving to you and all DB board members as well!

I'm not doing anything today. My family isn't getting together this year and I don't have my children today. It is snowing out. So I'm just going to stay home, relax, play some online poker and chess, watch a movie, read a bit, post a bit, and probably take a few naps smile I've never been very good at "GAL", but honestly I like the life I have and like being on my own a lot of the time. Last night I went out and shot some pool so I'm not a complete hermit.

OK- the hypnosis is a very good thing for me. I went in on Monday, and after discussion my hypnotist did a recorded session designed to start each day with. It has a couple of sections.

First is just getting relaxed, in a trance so to speak.

The next section is all about shrinking my thoughts. Like picturing your thoughts as if they have physical space, like a thought bubble for a cartoon character. When the bubble is big thoughts are racing quickly and it's uncomfortable. But with each breath the thought bubble gets smaller. Less thoughts fit in, and then they move more slowly. Little by little I visualize the thought bubble getting so small there is almost no thought at all. Then I bring it inside of me and feel almost completely still. I feel how much more manageable everything feels, how in control I feel. And I anchor that feeling, and that technique, so I can regroup at any point I feel anxious.

The third section is in terms of dealing with emotions. I am at a lake. I have a heavy rock in my hand I've been carrying. It is the pain and anger from the last year. I realize I don't have to keep carrying it. Then I visualize how I'll feel without the rock in my hand, how it will sound when it plunks to the bottom of the lake. Then I take a minute to THANK the rock, for making me who I am. Finally I cast it into the water and feel the relief from being less burdened. Sometimes I have more weight than that, so I have to go through this a few times.

The fourth section is on gratitude. I spend some time thinking of the things that fill my life with joy. I see my children, my parents, my best friend, my life itself. I let those feelings build and I take a moment to be really appreciative for what I have and the good in the world.

The last section is on visualizing my day and building my energy. I see myself working out in the gym, feeling good as the energy builds. Then I see myself moving through my day, present, calm, in control, and with a good feeling as I enjoy the road in front of me. Finally I build energy up in my body and am ready to go when the recording ends.

I've only been doing this three days now, but again, I used a hypnosis recording for pool so I know what it does. It ISN'T a magic bullet. But I think it was a good move for me, as it's a good way to start my day more proactively and intentionally. The first time I went through the gratitude section tears were rolling down my eyes as it was so profound, I was so overcome with the love I have around me.

Anyway, that's the update on that part of it. It does feel like a lot of weight is off my shoulders. It's not a magic wand, there is more I need to process...but so far so good.

So while I'm doing really well, and I am in my happy place right now. Thanks for checking in Sunny. Talk soon!
Posted By: JellyB Re: Black and white - 11/26/15 07:43 PM
Hi Zues,

Thanks for posting on my thread. I will post a response there. But I did want to say that you are like a touch stone for me. Your advice and care always feels big brotherly. Which is kinda nice since I never had a brother. Your comments always bring a sense of grounding to something I am trying to nut out.

So when I read that you were taking up some hypnotherapy, I was like OMG yes I know the relief that can bring. In 2006 when I returned from the UK to home. I was in burn out from two years of intense child protection social work, and my anxiety was off the charts. I used hypnosis then. The impact was immediate.

I chose hypnosis as I tired of talking therapy, I felt like I was continually reinforcing the trauma by verbally replaying the distress over and over again. I needed something else.

I had forgotten all about it until you mentioned it.

It is a very kind approach to self healing.

I hope it brings the relief and refocuss you are looking for Zues.

Lots of love

JellyBxxx
Posted By: Ancaire Re: Black and white - 11/27/15 07:18 AM
Hmmm....interesting! Definitely going to look into hypnotherapy to help deal with stress. Great tip, Zeus!
Posted By: isittoolate Re: Black and white - 11/27/15 09:33 AM
Ive got some trance/induction tracks that I listen to

One is to help me sleep another is for confidence and they definately help.

My self confidence/self esteem/self worth has taken a massive hit over the last few months - when W was detaching and after the latest BD.

Now I feel more self-confident at work and with my GAL friends. I still need to work on it at home, to stop my being fearful of every reaction by W to our sitch.

Every minor confrontation I initiate, I end up backing down and saying sorry. It makes me weak. I need to grow a pair and not react to W's anger and not to anticipate her reactions to my setting boundaries.

W is not an angry controlling person. My fear is that I will do something to cause her to escalate the situation to the next step, separation/divorce.
Posted By: PigPen Re: Black and white - 11/29/15 04:13 PM
Glad to hear you're doing well Zeus, and that you're using hypnosis for yourself. How do you think it worked for you on the pool front?

I've been following some of your thoughts on other threads regarding your future relationships, what you can expect from them and if they're even worth getting into. Lots of introspection, but it also seems like a lot of thinking in an arena where rationality isn't going to work ahead of time. We just can't figure out a potential relationship before it happens. It's like trying to think our way into learning how to swim by reading books. Everything changes once you dive in the pool for the first time.

Future relationships are on a lot our minds as our M's slowly wither away. We all carry the pains of our M's exploding, and the subsequent aftermath into our day to day lives, especially when we think of the possibility of having to go through the scenario again some day.

I have a feeling that someone is going to come along when you're ready and she'll change your view on many things. Her desires and appetites may match or even surpass your own, crazy as it may feel. With 7 billion people on the planet and a number of them female, I can't imagine that you have the most extreme outlook on sexuality.

If the match is a good one, she's also going to allow you to just be Zeus. You'll get to be you with all of your intensity and drive. She may even surpass you in this area too. Or just give you the space to be as intense or relaxed as you feel. The need for the intensity may get softened by being supported in ways you don't know about because you've never experienced them.

Each person brings a completely unique flavor to a relationship. What we all have to compare them to is the women we've been with in the past. But that's not fair, as each person is so unique. Women you date will have their past relationships to compare with you but how unique are you? How many men have your background, your intelligence, your drive? How many have your experience with pool to shape their world view?

I'm sorry your M blew up Zeus, and I'm sorry your W hasn't been able to get past herself to recognize just how much work you've done. It sounds like she hasn't done much of her own at all. On some level I feel sorry for her because not only is she missing out on you and the family she probably wants, but she's also missing out on actualizing herself.

You're one of the long time guys on here that's still active so I appreciate your presence and comments, you could have bailed a while back as many before you have.

I hope you have a peaceful Sunday.

PP
Posted By: Zues126 Re: Black and white - 11/29/15 05:57 PM
Thanks PP. I think I'm just confused on which parts of my outlook are idealistic and just destructive, and which are healthy and productive.

For example...it doesn't feel like it's that crazy to think a woman could understand and accept me for who I am...but maybe that's idealistic? Or maybe I'm supposed to be able to accept that's not possible, play the game, and by doing so have at least a lasting partnership if not the marriage I actually wanted...But people act as if there is a 'match out there somewhere' as if it's a matter of finding the right person, which I don't believe as I see that as idealistic and the reason behind so many D's (we're not the right match for each other, etc)...But maybe the idea of accepting what you're given and staying loyal to one partner even if it doesn't feel like you're a fit is idealistic and I should just embrace relationship hopping...

So confusing to me. I can't tell the rules of the game. I'd like to think it works like this [Zues's Mariage Rules]: Rule 1. You pair up with someone. Rule 2. You never get to leave the partnership. Rule 3. You agree to both do everything possible to reach a mutually fulfilling partnership. Rule 4. You never give up on #3. Rule 5. Anything that is difficult, distasteful, irritating, frustrating, or challenging, MUST be overcome by one party, the other, or through TEAMWORK, until the objective is accomplished. See, I guess deep down I just expected that this was obvious, that anyone that played the game of marriage would play by these rules. But this forum proves otherwise.

My longwinded point, PP, is that it's clear the world doesn't operate under my set of rules. It's caused me a lot of loss, and I don't want to compound that by beating my head against reality. If you can't beat them, join them. I'm trying to learn the rules of this game so I can play it. The sad part to me is the idea of running through a lot of relationships trying to find the person that plays this way...well, to me that violates rule 2. But again, I'm not worried about it right now. Just can't help but wonder which rule I broke, and trying to understand the game that's going on around me.

As for the hypnosis with pool...it did help, but it certainly wasn't a magic bullet. It helped me stay refreshed and calm during high intensity high pressure marathons. It reminded me what my real goals were.

More later, thanks all.
Posted By: JulieH Re: Black and white - 11/29/15 08:54 PM
Zues, When I met my husband one of the things I liked was that he directly told me "I will call you on Tuesday". He did not play that wait 3 day to call game. I hate that. Who makes these rule up anyhow. They are ridiculous and everyone knows them anyhow so following them is kind of silly. I understand your desire for honesty in a relationship. I think it's refreshing and was not trying to advise you to change, only saying that I understand how in a relationship that was rocky it would probably be misconstrued by a wife.

Reflecting on it, right now in my present situation, if my husband was to come and tell me that these past few months he was attracted to another woman at work, never acted on it, no longer has these feelings and wants to recommit to a relationship with me I would Appreciate it so much more then any lies and betrayal I am assuming he committed. I would work torwards making our relationship better.

PP s advise is great by the way.
Posted By: Zues126 Re: Black and white - 11/30/15 02:14 AM
This afternoon my S11 mentioned something about not being able to do something at mom's house because they always had to be quiet so they didn't bother her friend. How mom always have friends that stay over for the night in her room. How he doesn't even know who these people are, and he doesn't like it, he feels like he should know who's in his own house.

This bothered me on two levels. One is that this isn't behavior I ever wanted modeled for my kids. Another is I still felt a sting, the reminder of the horror of the loss of the M and the grotesque aftermath.

But back to what I can control. I model my behavior to the kids, and while it isn't perfect, I can almost see the nourishment they get from being with me.

As for my personal pain, I just used the old 'convert to gambling addiction' technique. Instead of thinking about STBX as having affairs, I imagined how I'd feel if she was a gambling addict, and I learned that she had just lost her last paycheck at the casino for the 60th week in a row. My feelings wouldn't be hurt. I wouldn't take it personally. I would just realize that she was a struggling soul that gave in to an addiction. There is no surprise anymore. And it has nothing to do with me.

There is still more to process, more to grieve, and more to accept. But her actions aren't impacting me anymore. It's been all about me for some time now. And there is more and more good stuff going on in my life. Hope this can be a guide for some newer forum members struggling with fresh betrayals.
Posted By: Jpeg Re: Black and white - 11/30/15 02:27 AM
Zues -
[/color]As for my personal pain, I just used the old 'convert to gambling addiction' technique. Instead of thinking about STBX as having affairs, I imagined how I'd feel if she was a gambling addict, and I learned that she had just lost her last paycheck at the casino for the 60th week in a row. My feelings wouldn't be hurt. I wouldn't take it personally. I would just realize that she was a struggling soul that gave in to an addiction. There is no surprise anymore. And it has nothing to do with me.[color:#FF6600]

This is such a great way to think about it. This has helped a lot with me being able to detach from H
Posted By: Zues126 Re: Black and white - 12/02/15 03:04 AM
So I have been struggling at work the last couple of months. I'll spare the details for the most part. Basically it's a roller coaster sales position. I fell into the trap. Things were going really well for a while this summer, I got a little complacent and didn't prepare for the winter. There is some seasonality and I got a little sloppy. Now I'm paying for it, and I'm having a couple of poor months (plus I've had some major meltdowns as I mentioned).

I keep waiting for the killer in me to wake up. It's hard to explain, but I'm a lot like Popeye. Without my spinach I'm not a wimp...I'm still a big, strong guy (in the sense that I'm always capable and solid at what I do). But there are a lot of big strong guys, and I don't really stand out. What makes me a CHAMPION is that when I'm in the clutch...when those times come when some people fall and some people step up...when it's that fork in the road where 999 people go the easy way and the 1 person goes the hard way...that's when I eat my spinach and take it to another level. I've found that being the best isn't really that hard, it's just doing that one extra step a few times here and there. When I know the game is on the line I always step it up, and once I get fired up I find a level that is almost inhuman.

But this hasn't been happening. If you'll recall my post when I was talking about not recognizing myself in the mirror...this isn't just in my head. It's true. I keep waiting for myself to kick into high gear...but it's like trying to start a car with a dead battery. It's just not turning over.

So yesterday I was talking to one of my friends that has known me for 6-7 years. He's in the same job I have, I actually helped him get the job. He used to work for me when I was a manager, he was always the top sales guy. In fact, he and I are 2 of the top 3 highest producing sales people I've known in 15 years.

Anyway...we're talking and he's SO fired up. Making plans for national conquest, setting his eyes on the #1 guy in the country and talking about how to out perform that guy. Me, I'm just feeling like 'meh, I don't care, just want to hit my goals and pay my bills, and I'm not excited about the work I have to do to get even that far'. Suddenly he says to me: "I don't think you're acknowledging how much what you're going through is impacting you."

He didn't mean it in a mean or disrespectful way. He actually meant it in a positive way. What he was saying is that he's known me for a long time, he knows the energy I normally bring, the passion, the fight, the drive...and he just isn't used to seeing me so lethargic. But he says that's fine, that's normal. He says it's almost like mild depression, where I don't enjoy the things I used to, like overcoming obstacles and scaling tall challenges. But he said that anyone would feel that way, and that I'm not over the hill, I'm not making excuses...I'm just human, and that if I can keep grinding it out now, it won't be long when I feel better and better. Then, combined with my experience and the second wind I'll feel when I start feeling that passion again...then I'll be back on top.

It was a relief to hear. I have been a bit disengaged, and I'm paying the price of not flying high at work right now. I am trying to recommit to the hard work, so I made my motivation list. The reasons I work hard every day. I will review them daily:


I enjoy knowing that I will succeed each month, rather than worrying about results
I enjoy knowing that I can achieve consistent results based on my skill, rather than hoping to get lucky
I enjoy overcoming fear, discomfort, and laziness, to do things most people avoid
I enjoy being the best at what I do
I enjoy working with good clients that appreciate the value I bring
I enjoy having enough customers that I can 'fire' problem customers
I enjoy being busy enough my performance is never at the mercy of one customer, one underwriting decision, one technology issue
I enjoy setting an example to my family of how to play the game
I enjoy making the kind of money that solves all of my financial problems and allows me to provide a future for myself and my family
I enjoy knowing I will always have a spot on the team regardless of changes in the environment around me


Long post...bottom line, I'm going to grind through until I find my spinach. It's really hard, sales isn't much fun when you're not doing well...that's why I've never allowed myself to be here. I've gained some humility, I didn't think I'd be in this spot. But I'll fight my way out. And though I thought the pain was gone it's clear I'm still managing it and it's taking it's toll. Someday soon I'll find that extra bounce in my step, then it's going to be curtains. I'm going to come at Chip like a SpiderMonkey.

Thanks for reading wink
Posted By: V2pt0 Re: Black and white - 12/03/15 04:29 AM
Hey Z,

I think you are being too hard on yourself. As an overachiever in my work who often gives more than 100%, I understand wanting to kill it all of the time and not be complacent. My guess is that your complacent level is still higher than most. It is impossible to constantly give 120% even when things are normal, so give yourself a break. It sounds like you were really using work as an escape after BD, so you are probably just a little burnt out from extra work and stress from your sitch. You will get back there.
Posted By: Zues126 Re: Black and white - 12/04/15 11:50 PM
Choosing to be happy. We hear it in DR. We hear it in church. We hear it in the cliches passed down through generations. But what does this really mean? How do we do this? I'm 18 months into this process and I'm starting to see.

See, we have such a natural tendency to think of happiness as something that hinges on our external world. Our spouse, our finances, our lifestyle, etc. We are told 'money doesn't make you happy' or 'happiness is about wanting what you get, not getting what you want', yet we constantly feel that happiness is just around the corner.

How can I be happy when WAS is...
I'll be happy once this is over...
Once I meet someone else who is more like...

I spoke with a friend yesterday. He wants to make a lot of money so he can be 'free of obligations'. He doesn't want to have to work. He believes that if he can do more of 'what he wants' he'll be happier, because he doesn't enjoy being in the rat race.

I asked him- Suppose a guy had 100 million dollars in the bank and wasn't happy with his life. But he was convinced that if he got it to 1 billion dollars everything would be ok. Do you realize how absurd that sounds? He agreed, because while it's more money, he already has more than he needs and the extra zero doesn't really change anything if he can't be happy with what he has.

BINGO.

YOU are no different. Do you realize that out of all humans that have ever walked this planet, we are in the top .1% of all of them? Everyone on this forum has internet access and leisure time to post. Would you trade this for the life of a Egyptian Pharaoh?

So why, if we have it SO GOOD, can we not be happy?

The problem is that there are two ways to try to be happier: Change yourself, or change the world around you. So often we forget or never learn that changing ourselves is even an option. And in this day and age we have more ability to change our environment than ever before. So we keep trying to change the world around us to feel better.

Then BD hits. Full Stop. Boom.

We can't change this.

Oh my gosh. What do we do? We can kick and scream. We can try to control. We can do anything we want. But while we have internet, hybrid automobiles, and I-Phones, there is no application to force your WAS to recommit to you and your happiness for the rest of their life. And if there was, there is no app to protect you from losing them to a bus crash tomorrow.

So not fair. Doesn't the land of opportunity mean that if you want it bad enough you can get everything you want?

For me this has been a blessing. As an individual that has been given many gifts, I, more than most people I know, have been able to influence the world around me. Succeeding with my endeavors, with my finances, with my friendships. BD has been a wake-up call that told me that I have been so good at changing my world, I have neglected changing myself.

Look at third world countries. People travel to these countries and find natives that work hard, have little or nothing...yet they are filled with joyous spirits. This type of travel has been known to ground people. I always thought it was because it was a reminder of how good we have it. "If they can be happy with so little, I can surely be happy because I have so much more." But that's still backwards. We shouldn't be able to be happy because we have more than them, we should be able to be happy because like them we can make the choice to appreciate what we have.

Happiness is a SKILL. And at the center of it is appreciation. Choosing to spend time every day being appreciative of what we have, and focusing the flashlight of our thoughts on the feeling the goodness and love that is all around us.

I know a lot of you are going through tremendous pain right now. I'm not minimizing that. Nor am I suggesting that we shouldn't use our God given gifts to make a difference in the world for others and for ourselves. But BD was invaluable to me, because once I was faced with a loss that was out of my power to change, I was forced to learn to be happy by changing myself, instead of endlessly charging around the world racking up plastic trophies and shopping carts full of emptiness.
Posted By: JellyB Re: Black and white - 12/04/15 11:58 PM
Now that's the Zues I know and love. Another keeper of post Zues JellyBxxx grin
Posted By: Gmum Re: Black and white - 12/05/15 01:44 AM
Great post, Zues. Such an important reminder. I really needed that.

Please keep them coming.
Posted By: PigPen Re: Black and white - 12/05/15 02:34 AM
Here here! Well said Zeus! Very well said.

PP
Posted By: Sotto Re: Black and white - 12/05/15 09:28 AM
Hi Zeus - what a lovely post. Yes I think appreciation & gratitude are so central. And it can take the shock of BD for us to really start appreciating what was right under our noses the whole time - but 'life' gets in the way. I also think our advertising culture is an aspect - you'll be happier if you are prettier, look younger, are thin, have more money, have more stuff....and so on.

But people can have all of that and feel quite empty. Then there are people who have little of that and yet feel quite full...

Have a great weekend my friend x
Posted By: SunnyB Re: Black and white - 12/05/15 03:13 PM
The other night my daughter made the comment that happiness is a choice. I was so proud of her. She's 17 and knows that someone else can't make her happy.

I like what your friend said, Zues, that what you are going through is impacting you. Twice in my life I've been severely anemic, and it was only months later after I got the treatment I needed and felt better that I realized how crappy I had felt for so long without acknowledging it or allowing myself to slow down, or criticizing myself for having to. Be gentle with yourself, Zues. There are seasons to things, embrace each one.
Posted By: ep0215 Re: Black and white - 12/05/15 03:55 PM
Excellent post, Zues. I needed to 'hear' that today.
Posted By: Painter Re: Black and white - 12/05/15 04:38 PM
I think your friend was probably right and I think it was a very compassionate thing to say.

In later years, I believe I have found that inner happiness you talk about. I've always been naturally optimistic, but it's more settled now, I'm not so easily impacted by others. I'm not sure if it has to do with age, or choices, or freeing myself from focusing on material possessions, or a mix of all of those. And the funny thing is that this is happening more and more as my health is less good.

I feel grateful every day for the hot water in my shower. I feel very lucky that I have the freedom to choose my work, and that I can work with healing to help others feel better. I think that work has done a lot to make me feel more satisfied with my own life. There is nothing quite like having a client get off the table and be completely stunned because the crippling pain they experienced, is gone.

I am lucky enough to get to play with art. I think this is something everyone should do - find the creative outlet that works for you, whether it is gardening, painting, dancing, singing, baking, needlepoint - whatever you can think of. As long as you feel joy doing it and it makes you focus 100% on what you are doing right there and then, it will lift you up.

A few years ago, I started going to a local church. This is not something I had done before, but it has been very enriching. I volunteer with some activities and enjoy the people I meet there.

Do I walk around in a constant state of bliss? In no way! I get upset, sad, angry, frustrated - but it is more like deviations from a normal setting, the needle goes back to rest at content and happy.

And I believe that H's choice to have an A actually pushed me further into this state. It made me more aware of who I am/would be without him, and that I liked myself even better.
Posted By: Di-mond Re: Black and white - 12/05/15 04:42 PM
Painter, this is exactly where I want to head. Being reasonably happy, helping others. I will never be an overt optimist. I watch and keep to myself. I understand that the world is not fair and never will be. I just have to make my little corner of the world ok.
Posted By: SunnyB Re: Black and white - 12/07/15 12:08 PM
Zues, it's Monday. Where's my weekend alligator update?
Posted By: Zues126 Re: Black and white - 12/08/15 12:30 AM
HI SUNNY!

Wow, not much to say. It was a no-kid weekend so I was total degen. Poker, pool, and a few things around the house.

Boy do I love pool. Poker gets 99% of my attention these days because the pool scene is so dead, but boy, oh boy, when I start hitting those balls it is absolutely *sublime*. I need to get it going at work so I can get a pool table in my next place. That is a MUST. But playing good poker too and having some fun.

I realize I am super introverted. I thought about the odds of me meeting another woman without internet dating. Next to zero. I don't go out and do things where I could ever meet someone. I compete and train. That's all I do. I don't really 'take breaks'. My idea of a taking a break is working on a different game for a while. So if I'm burning out on poker I'll work on chess tactics or something. I'd say this isn't healthy but I've been this way my entire life and I'm very happy with this road. I just like games. The plus side is that I play good. I guess it's an out of balance life, but really no more out of balance than Tiger Woods or something. People get that he's going to be pretty extreme with his game. I'm like that, only I picked a game that pays $2 an hour. Oh well. Good thing I'm ok with all of this. After WAW I think I like being by myself. I just have no desire for anyone else's judgment and rejection. I am who I am, there is a reason I am this way, people that don't get it don't get it. I get it, and there is upside, so I will enjoy my own company.

Not much else to report. Kids tomorrow night which is really good, and then this weekend. I can't wait. It's hard to be apart from them for a week. I can't elaborate much more on that or I'll go on a rant. I'll keep it short and say that the time with my children is so precious and irreplaceable that it is criminal that the courts support this. But that's just my opinion, so I'll validate my loss, realize that anger only hurts me and dishonors what I've been given, take a deep breathe, enjoy the time with them I have, wrestle with the meaning of everything for a moment until I realize there is no answer, then go work on my game some more...

Oh, I might be divorced(?) The plan was to get the divorce before we settled on the kids/money stuff for legal reasons (just ink in "to be determined" on some parts). My L asked me to sign something a week ago, so I did and faxed it back. I think that might have been the legal paperwork that divorced me. But I'm not 100%. Funny, I signed it and didn't even think about that for a day or two. I guess at some point it stops mattering. I AM going to court on Monday for some social evaluation where they make recommendations as to parenting time. I hope everyone that plays a role in this inhuman system burns in hell, oops, breath and release, ok, that's fine, good for them, I'm sure in their minds they are doing righteous things by tearing apart families with 'care'. Anyway, that's Monday next week, so I'm not looking forward to that. But hopefully we get this crap settled so I don't have to think about it anymore. I don't think I'll ever accept some of this, but I think I accepted that I don't accept it and just let go.

I'll bounce over to your thread in a bit Sunny. Hi to all my DB friends (and enemies)! smile
Posted By: Zues126 Re: Black and white - 12/11/15 01:24 AM
I'm not sure I can do this.

Monday I am meeting at the court for social evaluation. This is where I am there with my L, STBX and her L, and two court appointed social workers. The purpose of the meeting is to get a couple of recommended parenting time schedules from the courts and try to reach an agreement.

I am the 'petitioner' and am supposed to open with a 20 minute presentation. This is to cover how STBX and I met, what our relationship was like when it was good, where things broke down, what it was like when it fell apart, and then my relationship with the kids.

I lost it at my L's office. I did. I told her there is no way I am going to give a biography of my marriage in front of these people and STBX. My L told me that I had to, that it was my opportunity to show that I was able to say good things about STBX, and that if I couldn't it would reflect poorly on me. L was very strong on this point that I didn't have a choice and that for the sake of my children I needed to do this. I told her that I simply couldn't have this conversation.

L continued and said I had one shot to make an impression and to make sure I included certain things to impress the social workers with how I was an involved dad and the things I was doing with my children that demonstrated this. She suggested doing a few things like making sure I showed I knew the names of their teachers, and registered for a log in to the district online community so I could talk about following those events. I told L I DIDN'T know the names of their teachers and I'm not going to lie. Any condescending SAHM that thinks that makes me an uninvolved dad and rolls their eyes has no clue. I have been the sole income earner in my family for 10 years, and suddenly my work load has tripled with providing for TWO households, parenting the kids while they're with me, and taking care of all of the things STBX used to do. I told her I was up to my A-hole in alligators, meanwhile STBX hasn't lifted a finger or brought in a penny since she BD'd me 18 months ago, and all she has done has played 'mom of the year' and rubbed elbows with teachers and hung at community events and PTA meetings. I said if this was a contest of who could drop the most names we shouldn't even bother. I am an AWESOME dad, my kids love me and flourish when I'm with them, if that's not enough they can $*%& themselves.

Then L got heavy handed and said I had one shot to make this work and that if I didn't, it would be 4-9 months of further social evaluations at my place, making notes with how I handled my children. I told her that while I appreciated that she was trying to help me do what's best for my family I wasn't going to be threatened and bullied by her or these criminals in robes at the courts. I am who I am, my children need me. I will speak to that, I can say what I can say, but I'm not going to fight for my rights to parent. This entire system is inhuman and If some third parties want to keep my children away from me because I won't do their dance then they can go right ahead, and may God have mercy on their souls.

That's about where we ended.

Since then I planned to write out my presentation but I am absolutely stuck. I have ideas of what I want to say, but every time I start trying to visualize myself saying one thing I find myself launching into a version of my true feelings which is that everyone in that room should burn in hell.

I guess I won't write it tonight.

I expect I'll find a way through. I'm sure I'll calm. I'm sure I'll come up with a compelling and mature and inspiring presentation. For Christ's sake I'm a talented writer and professional salesman. But all I can see is the pain this has caused and continues to cause my children and their endorsement of every step of it. I guess I get to watch my children get tortured in front of me but stay respectful to the people doing it or they'll stick in more swords. Good for them.

Yes, this is probably a very emotional and immature and unsophisticated way of looking at it, I'm sure these workers and this system has some good intent on caring for the innocent children caught between separations. I'm probably like a four year old throwing a fit. Probably validates all the reasons STBX left. That's fine. I am emotional and immature and unsophisticated. I don't want anyone's approval and will gladly keep to myself. I'll wave to my kids whenever the courts agree it's safe to be around a lunatic like me, the rest of the time I'll work like a mule to care for them and solve chess problems until I get a bullet in the head like the guy in 1984. White to play. Always white to play...
Posted By: gonegrl Re: Black and white - 12/11/15 02:20 AM
Zues, you can do this. Your passion and commitment and love for your children and your marriage come across in every post you write, those are all in your favor. You know how to play a game, you know how to be strategic, you know how to do this Zues. If anyone can do it, it is you. I personally would not want to compete with you in any way Zues, you are a winner. And I 100% agree with you that this system [censored] and is inhuman but that is the way it is. Fighting the system is not going to help you or your kids right now. Play the game Zues. You are paying your L for her expertise, she knows more about this than you do, so I think you need to listen to her. I think you can find a way to present your "case" and also be the authentic, passionate, committed, loving man that you are. I am sorry you are in this position, I am sorry your children are in this position, and will be thinking about you on Monday.
Posted By: Fogg Re: Black and white - 12/11/15 04:30 AM
Zues, I'm sure I would struggle a great deal with that also but at the end of the day it might what you can do best for the kids. I'm sorry its something you feel forced to do and I don't think it will help any with letting go of the anger and resentment towards your STXB, but if it contributes to making things on your children better then its worth it.

While I understand most of that last post is the need to vent somewhere, to someone, I hope it will lead you to more realizations about you, whatever they may be. Other posters will likely drag it out. I often do read your posts but struggle with what to say. While I think we share many similar opinions I recognize some of them have small differences of opinion that are significant to its overall meaning. It leads me to questioning my thoughts and unable to form a post I am content with submitting.

I think you do a great job with mirror work trying to understand who and why you are who you are. Its all very interesting to watch unfold.

Random thought, I wouldn't have thought you were so introverted with how competitive you are, I guess I don't connect the two.

Anyways, good luck with the speech. I'm sure you will be fine, you might not like it but many things like that come after BD. Yet here we are, growing, surviving and thriving, which is what you will continue to do.
Posted By: SunnyB Re: Black and white - 12/11/15 01:46 PM
Zues, my friend, I wish you could call me because I'd have some very specific things to tell you. We all know the kids are my hot button. But since that's not possible, I'm going to suggest you do go ahead and write it tonight. And put in all the nasty stuff you feel like. Get it all there on paper. And then do something nice for yourself and go to bed. Get up tomorrow and go to the gym or play with your kids or whatever. And then pull out that paper and start revising. Reword, refine, finess it, tweak it. It's a game. How can you take the story and restate it to win the game ? You can do this Zues, your kids are counting on you to.
Posted By: JulieH Re: Black and white - 12/12/15 12:11 AM

(((Zues))

I don't have any great advice on how to handle this. I too would be outraged at the injustice of it all, and I do not know how I would handle it. I love Sunnys idea though. Sounds like a way you can possibly remain true to your self.

Just wanted to wish you lots of luck for Monday.
Posted By: mahhhty Re: Black and white - 12/12/15 12:50 AM
Z - I'm sorry. That sounds awful and I can't begin to understand how you must be feeling!

But My Man... Pick your chin up! And BUCK UP!!! You are an amazing Dad that will do anything for his kids! You need to do this for them! They have a stable father in you. You must be that rock now!
Posted By: Zues126 Re: Black and white - 12/12/15 03:30 AM
Thank you guys. You're right, I was boiling over yesterday and just needed a place to rant.

Sunny, I didn't actually write out my spew in a letter, but this post was kind of a start. And I blew off some steam with a couple of my supporters as well. Once the emotions simmered down what was left was me, ready to do what I need.

I went to a drugstore and got two little plastic scrap books that hold 36 photos...then I printed out duplicate copies of 36 pictures of my kids, and put them in a nice order.

During my presentation I am going to start by skimming through the years we were together very, very quickly. Then I'm going to talk about BD and the days since. What I've done as a man. IC, support group, journaling, and reconnecting with my family. Then I'm going to talk about what I've done as a dad. Working hard to support them in both households, getting a different job that allows me more flexibility to make room for increased time with them. Then I'm going to give them a glimpse of what we've done together by going through the scrap book. Science museums, trips to the zoo and festivals, hikes around lakes, board games, reading books, birthday parties, trick or treating...then I'm going to talk about what's not in the pictures, homework, violin lessons, getting them to eat new foods, and so on. How my son doesn't seem like he's got behavioral issues when he's with me, and that I know he feels safe and at home when we're together. How my daughter tells me when we're together it's like the world becomes full of magic and it's like our special universe to just be together.

Then I'm going to talk about what's missing from the pictures. Day to day life. The quiet time where they do their own thing knowing dad is in the room next door. Time to do our own things without the constant pressure to make every hour count. I'll talk about how all my children constantly tell me they miss me and wish they could have more time with me. How when they get in the car on a Tuesday visit after not seeing them for 6 days it's so hard because we've become disconnected, and missed so much life together, and by the time the bond is reestablished our three hours are up and it's time for bed and school and I will see them again on the weekend. And that I hurt being apart for so long, and while this is about the children's pain and not mine, I know that they are hurting too.

Then I'll tell them what I want. 50/50 parenting time. OK to make that happen over 1-2 steps over the next 3-12 months. I'll mention that I know there are concerns. I know there are trade offs. This is disruptive to their school week, etc. But I'll let it be known that it wasn't my choice, and it darn sure wasn't the children's, and it's not fair to them to give them anything less than a meaningful relationship with both of their parents.

Then I'm going to drop the mic and walk the heck out of that place.

OK. That's an abridged rough draft. I'll revise tomorrow, then rehearse Sunday night. Bottom line though, I will deliver a presentation powerful enough to generate tears if it weren't for the fact everyone else in the room is remorseless and eats babies for breakfast.

I appreciate you guys more than you know.
Posted By: 2ltl2lt Re: Black and white - 12/12/15 03:36 AM
SexualI Chocolate!! That boy good.
Posted By: SunnyB Re: Black and white - 12/12/15 03:49 AM
And he's back in the game.....
Posted By: JulieH Re: Black and white - 12/12/15 04:37 AM
I love it.

I do think you should stay though instead of walking out. Make them face you and look you in the eyes.
Posted By: JellyB Re: Black and white - 12/12/15 10:59 AM
Hi Zues,

I have been pondering what to write since I read your desperate, frustrated, angry heart felt words, related to the custody and care matters with your children. I have struggled to come to a post that would validate your experience, but add some perspective. You have however got yourself exactly where you needed to be.

I have been pondering what to suggest to you that would support you to feel more empowered at this conference on Monday. But Zues you did it. In the place that you somehow always seem to find, is the perspective of what truly needed to be done and communicated.

I was going to say, you may not know the names of your children's teachers, but I bet Zues knows, which maths problems is son struggles with or that his daughters favorite dress is the pink one with bow at the back. Or that he can predict exactly what his children will ask for as a treat for movie night. Or that he knows what story book his children will generally pick on any given night. Those are all the things I would want to know from you Zues. And you completely nailed the scrapebook idea, with the photos. When I write reports for the court, I want the judge to be able to imagine this child, I create pictures with words. You have done exactly what is required.

Zues I have written this post over what feels like a thousand times. I have deleted a significant amount I have written that I would like to share with you another time. Maybe after your conference on Monday and maybe it was more for me to write for my own healing.

Take care my friend

JellyBXXX
Posted By: gonegrl Re: Black and white - 12/12/15 03:07 PM
Zues, I will tell you that as a mother I just fell in love a little bit with you. Your love for your children is amazing and true. There is nothing more attractive than that. Your XW is a fool.
Posted By: Zues126 Re: Black and white - 12/12/15 04:34 PM
Thank you all for your responses. I appreciate the time and thought you all put in. This has been a long and difficult time, and just when I make it through one challenge I get to another...but that is life. The secret isn't getting to the end, it's sneaking in time to find some joy in the middle of it all. That I am trying to do, and you guys are part of that.
Posted By: gonegrl Re: Black and white - 12/13/15 01:08 AM
Zues, truer words were never spoken, and that I needed to hear today. The secret is finding joy in the middle of it all. Because all we really have is right now.
Posted By: JellyB Re: Black and white - 12/14/15 01:06 AM
I will be thinking about you tomorrow Zues. You don't need a cheerleading section Zues, but I wanted to at least say it out loud, know that I am here cheering you on, we are here. Lots of Love JellybXXX
Posted By: Rain75 Re: Black and white - 12/14/15 01:40 AM
Your mom is just amazing. Her response was so mature. So dignified. Good for her taking the high road. Its not even on my GPS right now.
Posted By: SunnyB Re: Black and white - 12/14/15 02:30 AM
Good luck tomorrow. Please let us know what happens.
Posted By: Ancaire Re: Black and white - 12/14/15 08:29 AM
Originally Posted By: pho
Zues, I will tell you that as a mother I just fell in love a little bit with you. Your love for your children is amazing and true. There is nothing more attractive than that. Your XW is a fool.


Yeah. I sighed a bit, too. Why didn't I get a Z? I'm so jealous right now.

Good luck tomorrow. You deserve so much more time with your children that you are currently getting. They need you. You've done a good job of proving it.
Posted By: V2pt0 Re: Black and white - 12/14/15 02:45 PM
Just wanted to wish you luck today. Sending positive thoughts your way. You can do this!!
Posted By: mahhhty Re: Black and white - 12/14/15 05:30 PM
As you said... It's not about the destination, it is about the journey!

You will do great today I know it! Good Luck!
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