Where to begin? Part 2 - DivorceBusting.com

Time for a new thread. Here is my old one:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...423#Post2613423

Thank you, Thornton. You really are a big help. I think I will see about getting some meds. This is all almost too much and I really can't handle it anymore. I try so hard but I feel like I am sinking with no escape in sight. I know this is a long road, and that just makes it that much harder. I miss her so much.

Guys I am really struggling now. If it weren't for my kids I don't know if I could even go on. I just feel so dead inside. I wish so much that I knew how my behaviors would have been back then so we wouldn't be in this place.

You're going to get through this, E.

Many times I thought about taking the easy way out. Instead of looking at the bog picture, break them down into bite size chunks.

Don't know how you're going to make it through today? Instead, think, just make through the next hour. Then set another goal, make it until 3pm, and so on.

Make an appointment with your doctor, he will be able to help.

And also, its VERY common to take on all the blame. Trust me, your w is not a saint. She has made mistakes too. Don't fall into the trap that you are the sole reason this is happening.

Relationships are hard, it's no wonder the divorce rate is so high. It takes two people to make a relationship successful. Yes, you made mistakes. So did she. We all do. Forgive yourself, there's not a step by step manual for this stuff.

Take a look at your mistakes and LEARN from them. That's what you can control now.

Don't give up. It gets better, I promise.

Thank you, Thornton. Yesterday was really a bad day for me. But, I didn't let her or the kids see it. Always remain upbeat even when feeling the worst! I realize that it isn't all my fault, and you are correct. I tend to take on the world on my shoulders and am working on that.

So, last night kind of evened out. We all went for a walk and got along great. I continued practicing the 37 and detaching and working on myself.

It took me a while, but I do feel that I am returning to that man I was and the one she fell for (I know, odd to hear concerning how down I have been lately). I want to think that she is taking notice and maybe she is. But I do feel better inside. I have made some fundamental changes to my way of thinking. I have to - for me. Which trickles down to kids and everyone else.

I don't know if this is an interesting turn of events - maybe it is what it is: My W has the holiday off and a while ago we had discussed me also taking it off for just the two of us. Today, she tells me that she wants us to go do something alone - which would allow us to talk about things and kind of sort them out. I don't really know what to think on that. The optimist says maybe that candle is burning a little brighter, and the pessimist says she isn't considering that at all. However, she did say that it was going to be nothing bad.

Take on this???

E, I think your wife wanting to go do something alone and spend time talking is a good thing. My only advice is to not read into things. Take it slow. Try to remain objective and detached. Try to listen and validate her perspective more than express and/or defend yours. Show that you can listen and understand what she is feeling and I think that will help her reestablish trust and see you more as the man she fell in love with. Remember, you need to approach these situations "As if" you are a team and working toward the same goal, but not so much that you push too hard or too quickly.

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Today, she tells me that she wants us to go do something alone - which would allow us to talk about things and kind of sort them out. I don't really know what to think on that.

Don't get your hopes up. Have no expectations.

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E, I think your wife wanting to go do something alone and spend time talking is a good thing. My only advice is to not read into things. Take it slow. Try to remain objective and detached. Try to listen and validate her perspective more than express and/or defend yours. Show that you can listen and understand what she is feeling and I think that will help her reestablish trust and see you more as the man she fell in love with. Remember, you need to approach these situations "As if" you are a team and working toward the same goal, but not so much that you push too hard or too quickly.

Thank you, Cole. Your advice is spot-on. For a while I made the mistake of pushing too hard and too quickly. Note: that is NOT what one should do in R situations...

One of my issues is that I read into things too much. My counselor has been helping me with that a good bit - also with the pushy bit. I have been working on all of that and think that I am in a better place because of it. Lessons learned. Time will only tell what her intentions are - and I have learned to look at things from an outsider's viewpoint. Not easy, because I know that I am an emotional driven person. That's next week's topic!

Thank you again for stopping and saying hello!

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Don't get your hopes up. Have no expectations.

Thank you, Sandi. Unfortunately, that is one of the hardest things for me to do and I really have no idea how to counter it.

Let me ask you this, would someone who is intent on leaving the marriage want to go to a birthday party which will have my family there?

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would someone who is intent on leaving the marriage want to go to a birthday party which will have my family there?

I think the better question to ask is "Does it matter?".

Focus on yourself and being a better man. Try to stop worrying about what she is thinking or what she is doing or what her motivations may or may not be. IOW, detach and simply go with the flow. Listen, observe, but try not to concern yourself with what she is doing and why. Notice what she is doing, certainly, but don't let it change your focus and don't let it distract you and get your hopes up. This is a marathon and you don't want to run off chasing the rabbit.

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Let me ask you this, would someone who is intent on leaving the marriage want to go to a birthday party which will have my family there?

If you mean a WW, then that depends on a few things. For example, if your family knows everything, or not. What the family's attitude is toward you W. Mostly, you just never know the "whys?" behind the action of a WW. When it comes to attending family events/holidays, for some reason the WW wants to think the pretense should continue, or if she's in public, she doesn't want to be alone and will want you to sit with her or whatever. It's crazy.

Selfishness is their main motivator. She's getting something out of it, or she wouldn't do it.

E,
Make the appointment. I finally did and don't know what to expect yet as its only been 3 days but I needed something to help even me out

So, not a whole lot to report from the weekend. It seemed very friendly but not a whole lot else. I haven't tried to get a temperature check in quite some time. She talked of all this stuff she wants to do with the house - as in new floors, cabinets, and paint.

Something I have noticed, the only time she ever really comes close to "attacking" (for lack of a better word) is when we are in counseling. I mean, she will - very rarely now - say, "well, for xx years you didn't...", but that's few and far between now.

I know we are working our "separation" now, but in house its kind of difficult. She said - if it wasn't odd or whatever due to our situation - that she has tickets for us to go to one of the holiday parties at her work.

OK, can somebody explain this... I slipped a little yesterday. We were working outside, and quite honestly she was looking pretty damn hot in her workout clothes, so I mentioned something about how good a stress and tension reliever it would be for a good ol' roll in the hay, to which she mentioned something about boundaries. So, then I couldn't just leave well enough alone and said well, it would be just that and its great exercise, too...and then she said something to the effect, if its just exercise, then she should be able to do it with whoever she chooses in a laughing sort of way. Now, knowing how my mind races, sent my alarms off. I then said NO. I know this is a stupid question, but I need to some mind-easing advice - is that something to be concerned about or would ya'll take it as joking?

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If you mean a WW, then that depends on a few things. For example, if your family knows everything, or not. What the family's attitude is toward you W. Mostly, you just never know the "whys?" behind the action of a WW. When it comes to attending family events/holidays, for some reason the WW wants to think the pretense should continue, or if she's in public, she doesn't want to be alone and will want you to sit with her or whatever. It's crazy.

Selfishness is their main motivator. She's getting something out of it, or she wouldn't do it.

Very wise words, Sandi. My family - as in my brother and his W - know pretty much everything, but my parents don't. As we were driving to the party, my W said something to the effect of feeling like she was going into the lion's den. However, she acted like she had a good time and interacted with everyone. In fact, she acted like the old days when things were good. Head scratcher, for sure.

Now, I have another question - the W had said several times that if we don't work out, then we would end up being the best of friends. If we don't work, I have no intention of being the best of friends - or pals, buddies, or whatever. The way I feel about it, either we will be married or acquaintances, but I can't be buddies. How does one approach that? Is "working on our friendship and being comfortable with each other" during our separation something normal, or is that a set up for the friend zone? Any thoughts/ideas on how to handle that???

Don't worry about what the future might hold in regards to a friendship. That's putting the cart before the horse.

Stay in the present, you're getting way ahead of yourself.

Be cordial but independent. Keep working on GAL.

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Don't worry about what the future might hold in regards to a friendship. That's putting the cart before the horse.

Stay in the present, you're getting way ahead of yourself.

Be cordial but independent. Keep working on GAL.

Hi, Thornton! Glad to see your response. I do have somewhat of a problem of looking at the future and, quite honestly, I don't know how to stop doing that.

I really have been working on everything and some days are really good for me. This weekend was nice.

Am I supposed to treat her like a friend? Or not even that much? I mean, she has said in our counseling sessions that we had to work on our friendship, so that's kind of what I have been doing. I just don't want to be friendzoned!

Be friendly without over doing it. Respond nicely to her when she talks to you but don't initiate lots of friendly conversations with her either.

The sweet spot for me in my sitch was when I was friendly when she reached out to me but I "acted as if" I was busy and didn't have a lot of time for drawn out conversations. I would be nice and crack a joke or two and then tell her I had to run.

I wanted to be mysterious, and not in a "I found another girl" way. But in a way that translated to I was becoming adventurous (think Bear Grylls). And I wouldn't give her too many details. I wanted her to wonder about me when I was gone.

You are still living with w, correct? You will need adjust accordingly and find your sweet spot.

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Be friendly without over doing it. Respond nicely to her when she talks to you but don't initiate lots of friendly conversations with her either.

The sweet spot for me in my sitch was when I was friendly when she reached out to me but I "acted as if" I was busy and didn't have a lot of time for drawn out conversations. I would be nice and crack a joke or two and then tell her I had to run.

I wanted to be mysterious, and not in a "I found another girl" way. But in a way that translated to I was becoming adventurous (think Bear Grylls). And I wouldn't give her too many details. I wanted her to wonder about me when I was gone.

You are still living with w, correct? You will need adjust accordingly and find your sweet spot.

Yes sir, we still live together. That is, we will until December. Odd thing, she hasn't even gotten her apartment yet (so she says) at her next duty station and she leaves in roughly two months. Kind of makes me wonder.

I am trying hard to behave like you, but in my situation, its pretty hard to do. Here is another question - given my W's mental state and her seemingly need for attention and acceptance, does the whole detaching and not showing attention and the like just validate her feelings of moving on? Remember how her walls are, and she made a comment some months ago - when I sort of went all detached - about how me not really talking sort of reinforced her alone feelings and all. I can understand how detachment would work in a more normal woman, but with my W's past playing into how her mind works it almost seems counter intuitive. Who knows. But it almost seems at times as if being friendly is playing into her mindset about moving on and just friendzoning me...

This may seem odd, but sometimes the detachment seems to really be taking hold and its almost as if I am in a "whatever" happens mode. I mean, I want this marriage to work more than anything and love my W more than life itself, but it just seems that at times that "whatever" mode kicks in. Does that make sense?

So, our anniversary was this weekend. She didn't mention it at all, which was kind of sad. I know that she is all into the separation and trying to see what will come out of that and all, but c'mon, really? Not even a mention. So, we all (us and the kids) went out to eat on that night and I said something to the effect of its our unofficial anniversary dinner, to which she laughed a little and smiled, but didn't say anything. WTF???

"Here is another question - given my W's mental state and her seemingly need for attention and acceptance, does the whole detaching and not showing attention and the like just validate her feelings of moving on?"

Detaching is for you, E.

Who knows what your w is thinking. I'm sure she is a roller-coaster of highs and lows. I remember in my sitch, I was SUPER paranoid and was hyper-vigilant as to what I said or didn't say.

I was worried she would think I didn't care by going no-contact. I looked for reasons to justify reaching out to her. The vets here kept me straight and held me accountable. I listened and didn't waiver.

It's ok to show some attention if she is still in the home. Just do it from a place of detachment, don't do it expecting a reaction or for her to suddenly snap to her senses. Make sense? If she is the type that needs attention and validation, do you plan on doing that if she divorces you? Maybe she needs to feel a sense of loss. Get busy doing things, make her wonder why your life seems so fresh and exciting.

The key is to be ok with you. Before you can be ok with her.

Regarding validation, you are not validating her leaving. You are validating her FEELINGS that she is hurt and confused. Don't confuse the two.

And the anniversary thing, don't look into that. Think of your w as being temporarily abducted by aliens. They brainwashed her (fog) and it's going to take some time for her to find her way out. And remember, you can't help her find her way out. But you can keep the front porch light on for her.

Thank you, Thornton. I don't know what I would do if it weren't for your help. You are helping me to right this seemingly un-rightable ship.

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Detaching is for you, E.

I know. And it is helping me to not have so many nutty moments. I just get so worried at times that by my detaching and acting as if "OK, do whatever you want" will give her mind a green light.

Some days are much much harder. I am really working on being OK with me. That I know I have to get in order first. My counselor has been a great help so far - I like going to her because she asks the tough questions and explains things better than any other has so far, and she also doesn't let me off easy, either. Sometimes I need that kick in the arse.

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And the anniversary thing, don't look into that. Think of your w as being temporarily abducted by aliens. They brainwashed her (fog) and it's going to take some time for her to find her way out. And remember, you can't help her find her way out. But you can keep the front porch light on for her.

Great analogy, sir. I try to be that front porch light and I feel that I really have made a lot of progress returning to where I was before. I want to think that maybe one day she will notice. But, what is the best way to be the front porch light while being detached and practicing DBing?

Yesterday she had off for the holiday, so she asked if we could do some stuff together. It was a nice day. We went out for lunch and did some shopping and also a bit around the house. I kept all relationship stuff out of it. Just a really nice day. We never did have any talk to sort stuff out as I posted about earlier - guess it never came up or she was just enjoying things. She did make it a point to really talk about the house and what she wants to do with it - although earlier she had said that if we do D, then I could stay in the house. I have to learn to not read into things!

Thank you again for your time and help!

"But, what is the best way to be the front porch light while being detached and practicing DBing?"

Live a great life! A life that anyone would want to be a part of!

Also, what are your biggest fears besides losing your wife? Or growing old alone?

Originally Posted By: Thornton

Also, what are your biggest fears besides losing your wife? Or growing old alone?

That is a very, very tough question. I have done some serious soul searching lately and always come to the same conclusion - my biggest fear is losing her. You see, for 10 years (married 7) she has been my best friend, lover, confidant...everything that a "soul mate" is supposed to be. That's one reason why I am still having such a hard time about all this. Last night in the midst of cleaning I found the anniversary card she gave me last year and I almost broke down because it was one of the most loving things I have ever read - and now to turn around and be in this position really less than a year later.

I am not afraid of growing old alone, but I AM afraid of growing old without her. If that makes sense.

What do you guys do when the W's family and friends are telling she is better off?

You do nothing. She's fed them a bunch of stuff in order to justify to them her reasoning.

Let your actions do the talking.

Also, you didn't answer my question. What are your fears besides losing your wife?

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Also, you didn't answer my question. What are your fears besides losing your wife?

Guess I didn't, eh? First and foremost are the children. I am really scared as to how they will react. And, quite honestly, I can't imagine not being able to put them to bed and get them up every day. They are my everything. They think that we love each other - my son says that all the time. When he asks things like why the W doesn't sleep in the same bed, it just breaks my heart. I'm afraid that she may try to take them. I'm afraid that she decide she wants more than 50/50 (if we D). I'm afraid of all that and more.

I am also afraid of losing my best friend. Not only was she my wife, but also my best friend. Now, we are just regaining the friendship that I never knew had a problem.

Those are my biggest, but there are other, smaller ones floating around.

Those are legitimate fears.

I was referring to fears that you can tackle to help give yourself a confidence boost. Scared of heights? Skydive.
Scared of swimming in the ocean? Learn to scuba.

These are things that will better YOU. And a better YOU, means you will be a better father, and husband.

Doing these things also brings a sense of adventure to your life. And I don't know anyone who isn't in someway drawn towards someone adventurous.

Someone I really admire is Bear Grylls. The guy is fearless. But he's also humble and down to earth. He exudes confidence and people gravitate towards him.

If your wife was to ask you what you had planned for the day as you were walking out the door and you said "I'm skydiving today". And then you walked back in the door a few hours later with wind blown hair and this new sense of confidence and excitement. Do you think that would make her wonder about you?

Perhaps you are stuck in a routine with her. You spend your day shopping with her and listen as she talks about what she wants to do with the house.

What if you were to say "I can't hang out today. My scuba lesson starts at 2". What would happen?

Honestly, I have never thought of that. Thank you again, sir! You have been a friend when I needed it most. Some great ideas you have and will come up with something. You are right about the rut thing. Maybe its time to shake the tree.

Here is something I have been wondering - my W said a few weeks ago (when she dropped the "I want to go ahead and file" bomb and not continue to work" in counseling) that "I may be making the biggest mistake of my life." It seems like that is a common statement around here. Why is that?

Confusion, Comforting you, themselves, because they are wak-a-doodle...who knows. It is just more evidence they can't be trusted.

Originally Posted By: Evil_E

Thread hijack (again)...

NDY (or anyone who can give advice on this) - you wrote:

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This shouldn't matter. If your W is pushing for 80% but you want 50% of the kids time then this will also be decided in court for what's best for the children. And no, the courts's don't automatically award custody to the woman. Those days are over. The reason it appears that way is that many men don't contest the custody orders.

Here is my situation. Let's say my W goes ahead and files for D. I (I live in the US) am the primary caregiver by far due to my wife's job, meaning that I get them up, get them ready, and take them to school every day (and have since they were born); pick them up from school; take them to after school functions; feed them; etc. She usually gets home and only has an hour or so with them at night before bedtime. Also, she will be moving to her new base in another state in a couple of months - meaning that she will be coming home only on the weekends to see them - so, in reality I will be the lone parent for the next 2 years or so until she retires (she refuses the idea of all of us moving).

So, she has also stated that I can keep the house (due to my giving up my career when we got married and moving around the country, I don't make all that much now) and she would continue to pay for it until retirement and then we would work out a deal to where she would pay half (She wants the kids to grow up in the house). She also told me that I could have primary custody but if I got the crazy about the kids she would "get nasty as I make it and take them." Also, I wonder if her mental state would play into the decision. There is no way she could get more than 50%, is there?

Have you spoken to a lawyer?

Might be best to get this all in writing as soon as possible.

Here is the thing about it all, if you can both agree and get it in writing then it does not matter what the laws are.

And IMHO the sooner it gets done the better the deal can be for you.
The longer it drags on the more entitled she will feel and the worse deal you will get.
It kind of goes against DB'ing but it I beleieve that protecting yourself is the most important thing here.

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Have you spoken to a lawyer?

Might be best to get this all in writing as soon as possible.

Here is the thing about it all, if you can both agree and get it in writing then it does not matter what the laws are.

And IMHO the sooner it gets done the better the deal can be for you.
The longer it drags on the more entitled she will feel and the worse deal you will get.
It kind of goes against DB'ing but it I beleieve that protecting yourself is the most important thing here.

Thank you, Cadet. I guess I shouldn't have hijacked the thread!

I haven't spoken with a L yet. I made an appt but cancelled when she backed out of filing and stated that she would rather do the separation route to see where that leads.

I see your point about getting it all in writing, but I am so afraid that if I bring the papers first that would just push her over the edge and past the point of no return. Given her mental state, that may be the final push.

I also believe in protecting myself and have recorded her saying all of those things, although it may not hold up. My thought was that I would gauge how things are and if they seem worse, then do go ahead and get the L and papers and all.

I just don't know if I have it in me to take that final leap.

^^^^^^ I did something of this sort Friday and it was like a huge weight was lifted off my chest. Got the child custody done through a lawyer and filed with the courts. Now there is no question about who's day, what to do on holidays or if the parent with the day can't fufill thier obligations. It's all in black and white. If she is willing at this point to also give the rest of that, get it signed! Contact a lawyer and get that ball rolling!

Originally Posted By: Evil_E

I see your point about getting it all in writing, but I am so afraid that if I bring the papers first that would just push her over the edge and past the point of no return. Given her mental state, that may be the final push.

Or given that it is counter intuitive it could maybe save your marriage.

There really is no way to know, I would work on getting over the fears of divorce.

And protecting yourself and your children is actually VERY attractive.

Sorry, we cross posted. I approached it as a way to protect each other. It gets it all on paper, that way nobody from the outside can influence anything. You can simply say it is now court order.

My XF had people telling her this and that. Screw him, do this, take that. I also had the same on my end.

I said it in a way that, I have been having bad influence on my side. I'm sure you have had the same. If we get this all in writing we won't have to explain anything. Just say it is "the law". She agreed pretty easily.

I had already started the process before filling her in but that's because one way or another I felt it had to be done. It just made it easier when she cooperated.

I am not sure I am at the state of filing now. We have another couples session next week and maybe then her reactions/answers will give me a better picture, if that is even possible.

So, I just got back from my own counseling session (who sees us separately and as a couple), which went very well but also left a lot of questions, too. I really like this counselor because she tells me like it is but also gives great advice.

Some of today's stuff:
*I really think we got to the root of why I am been so pushy/clingy... It all stems from childhood. Imagine that. Sigh.
*We also discussed the book "Codependent No More" which I borrowed from her. Good stuff.
*She told me that since I want this marriage to work, to stay the present course. We discussed this course at length and it almost mirrored the DB techniques from here. Seems that the stuff I have been doing is being noticed.
There were also a lot of unanswered questions that arose in our session:
*Last week in our couples session, the counselor (she also sees us independently and is mine, too) suggested a time frame in during our separation to sort of see where we are - like 6 months or so. My W, when asked if she agreed, really looked like a deer in headlights. She literally was dumbfounded and couldn't answer (reminded me of when I confronted her about the EA by waking her up so she couldn't form an answer). The counselor was perplexed. She thought maybe the W could possibly just be set on D and trying to let me down gradually.
*The counselor also said (during our couples session) that during our separation - since we are still married and "working" on us - that we shouldn't see other people. I agreed but it almost seemed as if the W slightly balked a little. We discussed that...
*She asked if the W was easily persuaded - she is EASILY (but not by me now)
*We discussed a little about me finding the receipt which showed her "toys" being shipped to a friends house. The counselor stated that since the receipt wasn't really hidden in the drawer, it may have been done purposely for one of two reasons: 1) Trying to trap me into saying something and then accusing me of snooping so that she could have an excuse of being done with it and filing; or 2) Putting it where she did was sort of an unconscious way to letting me down. Her question was "If it isn't one of two reasons, then why didn't she just throw it away at the friend's house?" Interesting indeed.
*We also discussed that friend to which the "toys" were delivered. A lot of questions there. She took particular interest that the week of our session (3 weeks ago) where the W said she was filing, that the W picked the same friend up and brought her to our house to watch the kids and then drove her back to her house, some 20 miles away. The counselor suggested that sounded very odd and that there may even be something going on. Especially, since a few months ago my MIL called the W and asked if she was a lesbian...OUT OF THE BLUE. However, the counselor has a plan to deal with that which will leave me out of the discovery method if in fact there is something shady going on.

Thats as much as I can remember off the top of my head for now.

A little journaling time.

Continuing to work on myself. Went for a 50 minute run last night. Man it felt good and gave me a chance to really think. Also, finally spent some time upstairs in my hobby room working on something (a model) I let slide for a long time. Left the W downstairs to watch tv.

Still reading "Codependent No More." Good stuff.

Things I need to work on: I know I have a problem reading into things and not taking them at face value. Jumping to conclusions. Getting angry/irritated at stupid stuff. There are still so many things that I

The W and I had a pretty good talk last night. Its funny with our situation being so unique, that we never argue...even now - well, when I exposed her EA 6 months ago, things got really heated.

At any rate, we discussed our situation a bit which is something we really haven't done outside of counseling. It all started when she mentioned something about our annual family vacation to our favorite place - mine, hers, I guess used to be ours, and the kids... She mentioned that she wanted us all to go, as long as we still understood our separation. I told her I would think about it and get back to her in a bit.

That talk led her to say that we are separated and in a platonic relationship. She went on to say that the separation/space is necessary for us to work on each other, and to also work on us and see where things go. It was something I had been saying all along but this time she said it herself. Not sure what to make of that (yes, I know not to believe...). Something else she did say about the vacation - I mentioned how fun the vacation is and she agreed and went on to say that if something happens then just let it happen and it can't be forced.

That was probably the best communication that we have had in a long, long time. I told her so and thanked her for it. She seemed to really agree. Maybe our communication is starting to turn the corner. If ya'll recall, communication was a weakness of ours.

So that's pretty much where we stand now. Going to be honest, guys. I miss her terribly and find myself still very much in love with her (yeah, I know...) even after all that has happened. But I am slowly coming to the realization that I am fine - thats not to say that I would revert to an emotional mess if she does go ahead and file for D, but now it just seems like I am fine. How can one be fine yet so desperately want the marriage to work?

I find myself wanting to tell her that our old M is dead and that a new and better one is there for the taking. Would that be a bad idea?

Bad idea, E. Don't do it.

No relationship talks at this point. When she brings them up, just validate.

Hi Thornton!

Yeah, I guess it is a bad idea. There are times when I want to tell her things like that, but I know how much of a bad idea that can be.

It has been a while, but in the worst of it my W has said that if we don't work out then she wants to be the best of friends. That is something I wholeheartedly disagree with. If she files, I have no intention of being her friend, buddy, pal, whatever. To me, we either will be married or just acquaintances. If she brings that up again, do I tell her that? Or just wait?

First, you are reading Codependent No More, which is good. May I suggest that I think it confuses you to believe you and your W are "working" on the M? B/c you are codependent and may not readily see how the ^^ two work against you. Let me give an example:

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Yesterday she had off for the holiday, so she asked if we could do some stuff together. It was a nice day. We went out for lunch and did some shopping and also a bit around the house. I kept all relationship stuff out of it. Just a really nice day.

To you it was probably thought of that you were working together on the MR. Am I right? Yet, it was cake-eating for her. She has a S but gets to enjoy a nice day with her LBH, shopping, going out for lunch, doing things around the house, etc. Thus, causing confusion for you, or supporting your codependency. (Just my viewpoint.)

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I have done some serious soul searching lately and always come to the same conclusion - my biggest fear is losing her. You see, for 10 years (married 7) she has been my best friend, lover, confidant...everything that a "soul mate" is supposed to be.

It sounds real sweet, and I think most married couples in a healthy R would share those feelings. At what point does it cross the healthy boundary and get into codependency? I have seen so many nice-guy types who come here as the LBS. Many of them seem to have developed codependency over time. So, I hope you will continue to work hard to overcome this unhealthy problem.

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I am not afraid of growing old alone, but I AM afraid of growing old without her.

How do you see the difference in the two?

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I haven't spoken with a L yet. I made an appt but cancelled when she backed out of filing and stated that she would rather do the separation route to see where that leads.

I see your point about getting it all in writing, but I am so afraid that if I bring the papers first that would just push her over the edge and past the point of no return. Given her mental state, that may be the final push.

You are repeating LBH script. They say they are afraid of pushing WW over the edge. Know what you are doing? You are thinking like a man. That's not how WW's think.

When she screws you over with the finances, controls who has the kids and when, the property, child support, etc., then you'll see why we tell people to just go get legal advice. It doesn't mean you have to file for a D. It doesn't push her over the edge. However, it usually has the reverse effect on a WW.

I just don't know if I have it in me to take that final leap.

Why not start being more proactive about your life, instead of depending on her answers or reactions? Doesn't mean you have to go file. Just stop depending on her to make all the choices for your life.

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I really think we got to the root of why I am been so pushy/clingy... It all stems from childhood. Imagine that. Sigh.

Doesn't everything?

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*Last week in our couples session, the counselor (she also sees us independently and is mine, too) suggested a time frame in during our separation to sort of see where we are - like 6 months or so. My W, when asked if she agreed, really looked like a deer in headlights. She literally was dumbfounded and couldn't answer (reminded me of when I confronted her about the EA by waking her up so she couldn't form an answer). The counselor was perplexed. She thought maybe the W could possibly just be set on D and trying to let me down gradually.
*The counselor also said (during our couples session) that during our separation - since we are still married and "working" on us - that we shouldn't see other people. I agreed but it almost seemed as if the W slightly balked a little. We discussed that...

Well, sure your W balked. She is wayward. You and the counselor may see it as both of you "working" on the M, but your W doesn't see it the same way. No, she won't say it....but she has a different point of view. She sees "you" working on the M....not her. A WW will not S in order to have a time frame of working on the M. Instead, they want a time to pursue the affair. If the A doesn't progress to their satisfaction, then the WW will use the LBH as her backup plan.

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*We discussed a little about me finding the receipt which showed her "toys" being shipped to a friends house. The counselor stated that since the receipt wasn't really hidden in the drawer, it may have been done purposely for one of two reasons: 1) Trying to trap me into saying something and then accusing me of snooping so that she could have an excuse of being done with it and filing; or 2) Putting it where she did was sort of an unconscious way to letting me down. Her question was "If it isn't one of two reasons, then why didn't she just throw it away at the friend's house?" Interesting indeed.
*We also discussed that friend to which the "toys" were delivered. A lot of questions there. She took particular interest that the week of our session (3 weeks ago) where the W said she was filing, that the W picked the same friend up and brought her to our house to watch the kids and then drove her back to her house, some 20 miles away. The counselor suggested that sounded very odd and that there may even be something going on. Especially, since a few months ago my MIL called the W and asked if she was a lesbian...OUT OF THE BLUE. However, the counselor has a plan to deal with that which will leave me out of the discovery method if in fact there is something shady going on.

Look, women will cover for each other when they are friends. A woman's girlfriend will babysit, let WW use her house to meet up with OM, lie to the LBH, let packages with sexy underwear or toys be shipped to her address, etc.

Have you ever....EVER....seen or heard anything to lead you to believe she could be gay or has thought about experimenting? Have you said anything to anyone where it could have gotten back to her mother?

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At any rate, we discussed our situation a bit which is something we really haven't done outside of counseling. It all started when she mentioned something about our annual family vacation to our favorite place - mine, hers, I guess used to be ours, and the kids... She mentioned that she wanted us all to go, as long as we still understood our separation. I told her I would think about it and get back to her in a bit.

Extremely common for the WW to want (even expect) to have her S/D and continue to share in family vacations, trips, holiday traditions, family events, etc. It's called cake eating. She wants the best of both worlds.

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That talk led her to say that we are separated and in a platonic relationship. She went on to say that the separation/space is necessary for us to work on each other, and to also work on us and see where things go.

WW script.

We never did have any talk to sort stuff out as I posted about earlier - guess it never came up or she was just enjoying things. She did make it a point to really talk about the house and what she wants to do with it - although earlier she had said that if we do D, then I could stay in the house. I have to learn to not read into things!

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[quote]That was probably the best communication that we have had in a long, long time. I told her so and thanked her for it. She seemed to really agree.

B/c you didn't disagree or challenge her on anything.

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I find myself wanting to tell her that our old M is dead and that a new and better one is there for the taking. Would that be a bad idea?

Yep, it's pursuing.

Thank you, Sandi, for another round of help and kick in the pants when I need it!

Sandi, may I ask you for more advice? The more I think on things the more I see you are correct. For example, we did a family day trip over the weekend to a place our kids love. We all had a great time. I mentioned on the way home that it was a nice time and she agreed, although I couldn't tell if it were from her heart.

When she talked of the family trip, she said that she wanted to reiterate that we are separated and that she didn't want me to give false hope or the like. She texted me about the trip and I answered by saying something like it will be fun and who knows where it will lead (I realize now I shouldn't have said that), to which she answered right now she isn't looking for things to lead anywhere.

I want to think that the EA is over and has been for a while, especially when I told her I won't share and to choose. Due to her job and travel times to/from work, I am pretty sure that there isn't an A as she is home fairly early enough and on the weekends she doesn't go out, or take "extended" shopping trips (really, no shopping without us), or the like.

I am trying so hard to follow everything. I don't text (as I said a little while ago, I keep a journal of what I want to text, which eliminates that need), call, email, or the like. I am nice at home and show her that am not moping or the like. I am really working on my confident self, too. Getting back to where I was when we met. Maybe I am too nice of a guy...

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Have you ever....EVER....seen or heard anything to lead you to believe she could be gay or has thought about experimenting? Have you said anything to anyone where it could have gotten back to her mother?

Honestly, I have never said anything about being gay to anyone...I would be too embarrassed to even do that. Thinking back, I am not sure on seeing anything. I mean, she keeps cutting her hair shorter and shorter - almost boy like now.

I do, however, think my W is in the midst of a MLC. Here is why - less than a month after BD, she buys a jeep, gets younger clothes, etc. Even "talks" differently - saying things like "sweet" (which she never used to do) or even cursing more. When I mentioned "what was that" she stopped talking that way... Is that a sign of a MLC?

Do I seem like I am on the losing end? After reading what Sandi wrote, I am having serious doubts about things. I just don't know what to do anymore. I have detached to the best of my ability and our separation is kind of odd given that we live together until she goes to her new base. I don't text, email, or contact unless necessary.

Is it normal to almost realize and accept that my M may very well be over, but at the same time want nothing more than for it to work? I want this to work so bad, but at the same time it almost feels as if my shoulders have been unburdened, if that makes sense.

Do I go on vacation? I know that every situation is different, and ours is quite odd, but I do desperately want to believe what she says.

Its funny, I can give advice on here but I can't even seem to follow my own. Also, I find it very helpful to me just to help others.

What do I do?

I would bet a years salary that she is stilling talking to EA. Even if she's spending time with you.

Does she take her phone with her to the bathroom? Does she put her phone face down when she lays it down on the table/nightstand? Is her phone on silent mode?

I think you need to stop doing stuff with her, E. I know that's counter intuitive to what you want to hear. I am codependent as well. I've read all the books, done the workshops, and even went to Codependent Anonymous meetings for a while.

You are dependent on her for your sense of self worth. She knows this and uses it to her advantage. Just like Sandi said, she gets to string you along while she figures out how to safely determine her next steps.

Start doing your own thing, E. Let her feel your absence.

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I do, however, think my W is in the midst of a MLC. Here is why - less than a month after BD, she buys a jeep, gets younger clothes, etc. Even "talks" differently - saying things like "sweet" (which she never used to do) or even cursing more. When I mentioned "what was that" she stopped talking that way... Is that a sign of a MLC?

Could be, however, the visible signs you've given run parrell to a WW.

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Do I seem like I am on the losing end? After reading what Sandi wrote, I am having serious doubts about things. I just don't know what to do anymore.

Oh my goodness, ^^^ that made me cringe.

Your stitch is not odd, at all. Have you noticed all the in-house separated people on the board? Btw, my H and I did not argue/fight either, b/c he simply would not do it. So, even though your stitch seems unique to you, it really does not appear different to us.

I did not mean to upset you. I just wanted you to see a few things from this old former WW's point of view. I understand how you would feel that you are doing everything you know to do. And, that is why I pointed out several things.

Let me inject, however, that when newcomer LBH'S attend MC or try to mix DBing with some other techniques from various authors of books, programs, etc., it can cause confusion for the newcomer. Right off, I questioned your MC. However, if she's hired to give you both face to face advice as a couple who says they are working to save the M.....then she may be advising as though you were reconciled. The work you need to do during the walk-away to the reconciliation period.....is quite different. Make sense?

Your W agreed to go to couples counseling b/c she felt it was unfair to you, if she didn't go. To me, that is not with the same heart as wanting to actually do the necessary work to save the MR.

Anyway, I think you could fine tune some of the things you are currently doing. For example, contacting W only when necessary. What constitutes necessary. I know most everyone says "the kids", but what about them? Why do you have to contact her that it could not wait till everyone is home? Discuss it in the evenings or before leaving for work.

The biggest thing I am seeing currently, is how you serve her cake. Again, if you can't see how she wants the best of both worlds and how what you are doing is not changing the stitch.....then I don't know that what I say would matter. If you have read all the threads on the WW, then it pretty much covers it.

Detaching is all about how you think. I hope you have not skipped over the detaching link. Honestly, I doubt you will experience DBing detachment as long as you have so much fear of losing her and living without her in your life.

I do not believe couples counseling will work while she does not want to commit. You could attend IC, but I think it is a waste of time for her.

Vacation? Do you mean with, or without her?

Originally Posted By: Evil_E

Do I seem like I am on the losing end? After reading what Sandi wrote, I am having serious doubts about things. I just don't know what to do anymore. I have detached to the best of my ability and our separation is kind of odd given that we live together until she goes to her new base. I don't text, email, or contact unless necessary.

Evil_E, we are dealing with something similar here. H is getting orders in three months. H has his own apartment, but is here a lot working on the house to get it ready to sell when he leaves for his next duty station. S17 is graduating from high school this year, so we are sticking it out here until then, but will probably return to my hometown afterwards. It makes for a very awkward situation though because H comes and goes like he lives here. We can't get enough space between us to make him miss us, but we don't get any quality time together to make him want to stay either.

Don't mix DB with anything else. When I first got BD, I read a lot of stuff online. Some of it was contradictory. I tried nice. All that got me was a kick in the balls, so give that a miss. In the end, I read sandi2's initial posts, before I joined the forum, read a couple of other sitch's, and found that actually, I wasn't the only man on the planet that this has happened to and that most of the stuff on cadet's homework, fitted my W to a tee.

I tried a MC session with my W. It was a disaster as she thought they were all against her and for me. 'Fawning' is how she put it. So, don't go there until she has made a commitment to be part of your M.

I don't contact my W during the day. I don't think either of us actually wants this, but, you've got to think 'why would I want to contact somebody who doesn't want to be with me?'. That's when it clicks in to place.

Keep at it.

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Does she take her phone with her to the bathroom? Does she put her phone face down when she lays it down on the table/nightstand? Is her phone on silent mode?

Actually, it has been a long time since she has taken the phone into the bathroom with her and she doesn't put it face down, either. Her time on the phone has decreased a good bit. Sometimes late at night when she is asleep or before she gets up I will push the button just to see and there haven't been any messages for a long time.

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I think you need to stop doing stuff with her, E. I know that's counter intuitive to what you want to hear. I am codependent as well. I've read all the books, done the workshops, and even went to Codependent Anonymous meetings for a while.

I know. I never ask to do stuff as she is the one who suggests things. I know I need to stop all of this but its just so hard.

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I did not mean to upset you. I just wanted you to see a few things from this old former WW's point of view. I understand how you would feel that you are doing everything you know to do. And, that is why I pointed out several things.

You didn't, Sandi. I value your answers because you tell me the unvarnished truth. I need that. Thank you. I will continue to have questions if that is ok with you.

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Anyway, I think you could fine tune some of the things you are currently doing. For example, contacting W only when necessary. What constitutes necessary. I know most everyone says "the kids", but what about them? Why do you have to contact her that it could not wait till everyone is home? Discuss it in the evenings or before leaving for work.

I agree. lately I haven't been contacting her at all during the day. I know I used every excuse to text. But, I have been keeping a journal - every time I get the urge to text, I would right what I wanted to say instead of actually texting her. I find that to work very well for me. And who knows, maybe if we reconcile it would make a nice gift.

Thank you and please keep setting me straight on this rocky road!

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Evil_E, we are dealing with something similar here. H is getting orders in three months. H has his own apartment, but is here a lot working on the house to get it ready to sell when he leaves for his next duty station. S17 is graduating from high school this year, so we are sticking it out here until then, but will probably return to my hometown afterwards. It makes for a very awkward situation though because H comes and goes like he lives here. We can't get enough space between us to make him miss us, but we don't get any quality time together to make him want to stay either.

Thank you for responding. How far away will his next duty station be? My W's will be roughly 2 1/2 hours away. Which brings me to this - for a W and mom who supposedly loves her children so much, why is she so resistant to all of us moving with her? I mean, wouldn't a loving mom want her children near hear all the time instead of being a weekend mom? Her excuses for us staying here: 1) great school system and our son is having some trouble but they are helping him; 2) near my family - she has always been big on family support even though they only see my family every two or three weeks (even though we are only 5 mins apart); 3) financial - we currently have two houses (one is rented) and couldn't afford it. I call BS on this one. The area where her next duty station is like job heaven for my field, where I would make much more than am now. I even said I could pay the house here and we could either rent it out or come back every couple of weeks. No go.

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We can't get enough space between us to make him miss us, but we don't get any quality time together to make him want to stay either.

Same here. How does one get quality time in our situation? My W made the statement in one of our counseling sessions that she doesn't know if she would feel separated because she would come home every weekend... WTF does that mean??

It does seem like we are on similar paths, no?

That's why they call it the "fog". It's like they temporarily throw all their moral convictions out the window and become narcissists who only care about themselves.

No sense in trying to understand it. It will never make sense.

Hi, Thornton! Thanks for stopping in - how are things going?

I have a question that I would like to have a future answer for. Its been a while, but when things were low for us and more like after the BD, but on a couple of occasions my W has mentioned that if we don't work out she hopes we can be the best of friends. I have no intention of this and feel that if she does file for D, then the best we can be is acquaintances. I believe I read somewhere on here that a poster said "either we are married or will be acquaintances."

Would it it appropriate to tell her that I have no intention of being her friend, pal, buddy, etc., if she ever mentions that again or would that be something best served if she files? I hope my question made sense...

Hey E,

Doing good!

I agree with what the other poster said. But only tell her this if she asks you. Don't bring it up on your own.

I think one of the main keys to DB is that you start to make the WAS feel like they are the LBS. And the only way to do this is with your actions.

You start moving on. You start living your life without them and enjoying it. I think WAS's can feel it when they sense the LBS moving on. The LBS gives off a different energy, and they have a glow about them.

That's why DB always pushes GAL and "acting as if". You have to start making the WAS feel you losing interest (and not in a spiteful angry way). But in a peaceful, loving way.

That's why I keep telling you to stop doing things with her. If she asks to hang out, tell her you have plans (and act excited about the plans when you tell her).

She might resist and act angry and start talking divorce. It's all fluff. She will try to manipulate you to get you connected emotionally because it soothes her. She can leave you and venture out on her own and have the comfort of knowing you will be waiting if she decides to change her mind.

You do not want her to feel comfortable right now.

You HAVE to get over your fear of losing her before you can get her back.

Make sense?

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You HAVE to get over your fear of losing her before you can get her back.

Make sense?

Perfect sense! Thank you for stopping in and giving me some much needed advice. I see what you are saying and am feeling better about doing just what you say. I will admit, its tough and scary, but I have a plan. She texted earlier about all of us maybe going out to eat Saturday...I haven't answered yet but I think I will say no because I want to watch the game. I guess that's a baby step for me, haha.

I wouldn't be so specific about the reasons for not being available - You can just say - no thanks, I already have plans, and leave it there.

As for the 'friends after D' thing. Thornton has already given good advice there. If my H ever asks me this Q, I plan to say...Aah, that's nice, but I don't really think that's going to work for me...

Even better, find some friends to watch the game with away from home.

"Sorry, can't make dinner on Saturday. A bunch of us are getting together to watch the game and grill some brats."

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As for the 'friends after D' thing. Thornton has already given good advice there. If my H ever asks me this Q, I plan to say...Aah, that's nice, but I don't really think that's going to work for me...

Thank you, Sotto! I like that and may steal it for my own use!

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Even better, find some friends to watch the game with away from home.

"Sorry, can't make dinner on Saturday. A bunch of us are getting together to watch the game and grill some brats."

Now that sounds perfect!

So, let me ask ya'll this - I got a phone call from my step FIL asking for my W's phone number so they could call and wish her happy bday, which I found very odd because I know they have her number. At any rate, we talked for a little bit and I suspect the real reason for the call came out when he mentioned (more like indirectly asked) that my MIL wasn't all that happy with my actions. Seems that my "snooping" when gathering intel about the EA was told to her family, but she conveniently forgot to mention the reason why I did it. So, to all of her family with whom I really do (or did) have a great relationship, now think I snoop in all her stuff and did all of these other things.... I kept it very civil because I like him, so I just said that there is a whole lot more to the story that isn't being told and left it at that. Was that an appropriate response?

So, I am sitting here at work (it is a slow day) wondering how all of this mess happened. Just how does everyone not think of their situation? I seriously have trouble shelving things and am down a bit now. I just can't stop thinking about my W and the M. The sad thing is, I have a gut feeling that my M is over yet I want it to be fixed more than anything. I guess another poster's thread about the holidays really hit me.

And then there was the whole FIL thing that also got me to thinking. I just don't know how much more of this I can take. For the majority of time, the only things I do with the W are family centered. With her moving to another base in a couple of months, I just can't see not doing this, although I know I need to really cut our contact. My thinking is that our young kids need the family unit and will more than ever when she leaves.

I try so hard to put on the good face, yet my heart is breaking so bad inside. I just never understood how someone could be so loving up to Valentine's Day turn around and BD in March.

Right now its my kids keeping me grounded. If not for them, I just don't know.

I totally understand your feelings, E.

That being said, what reason would WAW have to come back to you if she can be single and have you at the same time?

That's what we call cake eating around here. If you are ok with never having her respect, allowing her to do what she pleases when she pleases, and you get to occasionally see her and spend time with her, and then feel crappy afterward and long for her until the next time she has time to fit you in her calendar, that's really your call.

Not trying to be a jerk, E. But we're going to keep it real with you.

Dude, I know how bad this stuff hurts. It's excruciating. I remember telling my friends I would rather have someone break both my legs with a crow bar than to go through this pain.

There's no way around the pain, my friend. You have to go through it to get to the other side.

Do you have a therapist of counselor you can talk with? Have you been to the doctor to see if anti-depressants make sense?

Make it through today. And then start over and make it through tomorrow. There were days I didn't know if I would last until the end of the day. In those instances, I made goals to make it through the hour, and then another hour.

You're not alone. We have all been there.

Thank you, Thornton. It's almost as if you are my guardian angel keeping me in check.

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That's what we call cake eating around here. If you are ok with never having her respect, allowing her to do what she pleases when she pleases, and you get to occasionally see her and spend time with her, and then feel crappy afterward and long for her until the next time she has time to fit you in her calendar, that's really your call.

I understand that totally. Our situation is like this: The base is roughly an hour away with no traffic, meaning she usually gets home between 6 and 630 (not including duty days that require more hours) at the latest on rare days. We usually put the kids down around 8. She usually falls asleep by the time the kids do, so there really isn't all that much contact now. The weekends, we take the kids and do stuff with them or just stay home and yard/house work. That's pretty much it, except with the rare occasion of us doing something like earlier this week. She doesn't go out on the weekends, either, unless it is with us. You are right, I do feel crappy and long for her...

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Not trying to be a jerk, E. But we're going to keep it real with you.

Ya'll aren't being one at all. In fact, the harsher the better for me.

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Do you have a therapist of counselor you can talk with? Have you been to the doctor to see if anti-depressants make sense?

I do have an IC that I see weekly. She is awesome and also tells me like it is. Not only about the relationship (actually, that's pretty little of our talk), but we mainly talk about me and making me better.

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Make it through today. And then start over and make it through tomorrow. There were days I didn't know if I would last until the end of the day. In those instances, I made goals to make it through the hour, and then another hour.

That's what I do. Or try to, anyway. Sometimes I just hate things.

I remember I had a few vets that kept it real with me and it was so hard to follow their advice. My mind resisted their advice at the cellular level. They weren't blinded by the pain I was feeling.

The LBS is also in a fog, E. The pain you are experiencing really changes the way you view things.

Something interesting often happens when a WAS wants to reconcile with the LBS. The LBS suddenly feels VERY angry and looks at the WAS differently, almost like they have lost respect for them and they aren't as attractive anymore. It's because the fog lifts and we realize our WAS isn't perfect like we had thought the whole time they were gone.

Now we are now seeing clearly, and we start to think "why in the hell did I put up with that BS?!?!" "I allowed my WAS to walk all over me and I asked for another serving again, and again, and again!"

This is exactly what happened when my wife left me 15 years ago. I would have literally done ANYTHING to get her back. Short of murder, I would have done anything!

I hurt so bad, for so long. Guess what happened.. she wanted me back.

A weird shift occurred, almost immediately. After everything she put me through, played with my emotions, toyed with my heart and dangled reconciliation in front of me like a carrot to a donkey. I felt ANGRY. I mean searing anger.

Why was this happening? This is what I was hoping for, for so long! I tried to overlook all these feelings and tried again with her.

It was too late. I could see clearly now. She wasn't worth it anymore. She was abusive, manipulative, and all she wanted was to use me again.

SHE had become the LBS! And SHE did the begging, crying, threatening to kill herself, and stalking! I couldn't have been more turned off by her.

My point is this, YOU are in the fog. Maybe even more so than your W.

You will see clearly again my friend. Once the fog lifts..

Great post thorn

Thank you again, Thornton! You are so correct on the fog I am in.

So this weekend was pretty uneventful on the home front. On Saturday, the W had duty so she was at work while I kept the kids (BTW, by far I am the primary caregiver). That night I went over to some friend's and watched the game, which was a lot of fun. Raised an eyebrow, so that must good, eh?
On Sunday we did some family stuff by taking the kids to a pumpkin patch and let them pick out their pumpkins for Halloween. We all had a great time.

I wonder if the W's fog may be starting to lift a little. It seems as if the way she is treating me is changing. For example, in a post on her social media site she tagged me for the first time since before the BD. Maybe I am reading her actions wrong, but they seem more responsive to me. Heck, some of her texts yesterday were way more family oriented. Who knows. Guess we will find out in our next session tomorrow. I learned to not believe anything she says, but if those are signs then I don't know what is.

Honestly, I go back and forth between us having a chance - even a small one - to no chance at all. Just the way my mind works. She told me she hasn't contacted a L or filed, so we will see. Sometimes I alternate between feelings of dread and being at peace. I know that reading into things is not healthy, but I really don't know how to stop that.

One thing I find myself torn with is what level of "friendliness" do I need to be treating her with, especially when we do family things together? I know I need to be nice, friendly, and all that, but if she truly is planning on filing, then I don't want to be placed in the friend zone. I know there is a fine line with being "friends" or "friendly" and I definitely don't want her to put me in that zone. What is the best way to avoid becoming a "friend" like that? I don't want her to get comfortable in that aspect, because we all know how being friend zone is...

More journal time.

So, we had another counseling session last night and for the first time in any of our sessions I wasn't "attacked." It seemed our session went well. A lot of it was focused on some of the communication issues we had and discussed how they damaged our M, but it seemed neutral and neither positive nor attacking. When the counselor asked how things were and all (including her "space"), she answered that they were going well and didn't say anything negative (or positive).

She talked about our separation and how she didn't know if it would feel like a "real separation" when she comes home on the weekends from her base. I will say that she is persuaded easily and it seems that she tends to fall back on her research, especially considering military couples and separation/divorce. The counselor sort of pressed her on this, and it seemed that she still stuck to her feelings but it just didn't have that edge to it, if that makes sense.

It was an odd session. Almost seemed kind of upbeat and there wasn't any sadness/attacking/etc. I just don't know what to think on it.

So, I was thinking of talking to her a bit so want to run it by everyone on here first. Would these things be bad to say?
"It was an excellent session about the communication problems we had. We really have been communicating better lately (actually, we have) and it seems that we both understand things a lot more, now. Sure, we had children quick and didn't get to experience the M just between us, but that doesn't mean that it isn't repairable. Divorce isn't the answer and we can do this."

Or something to that effect. I have come to trust the advice given on here - what does everyone think? Is that a talk that should happen or is that pursuing? Maybe her fog is lifting a little, but I just can't tell.

About me now: I am continuing to work on myself with counseling, but also more time doing things by myself, too. That's how I think best - either running, lifting weights, yard work, etc.

It seems that my frame of mind has changed a good bit over this week or so. While I still get the crazy tinges of being all over the place emotion-wise, I don't get that as much. I find that I can think more clearly now.

Is it odd that at times I am angry with her, yet still want nothing more than keep this M intact? Sometimes I feel guilty about that..I love her more than life itself, yet at times I am angry. Maybe I am just rambling again...

Hey E,

Great job coming here first.

I wouldn't have the relationship talks until you are certain you will get a positive response. If you are unsure, leave it alone. This is outlined in the DR book.

Give her some time to digest what was said with the counselor. If you have the talks with her, that will feel like pressure and pursuing to her.

You will know without a doubt when the tides have changed. She will come to you with relationship talks.

Keep being patient, you don't want to scare her off.

Good morning, Thornton! Thank you for stopping in and sharing your help and wisdom!

I am learning! May be slow, but am getting there. Patience is not my forte, sir! But I am trying. So far she hasn't brought any relationship talks up. Patience...

She mentioned something in our session last night about about the separation, space, and all and said something to the effect of not knowing how to make things work again (I can't recall exactly). I wanted to tell her that just have to try and let things happen. Guess that wouldn't have been a good thing to say, eh?

So, just got back from my own counseling session (she is the same counselor that sees us both).

When I walked in, the first thing she asked was what I thought about our couples session last night. I told her that it seemed to go well. My counselor seemed to think that my W's fog is lifting. For example, she mentioned the fact that my W was adamant about me coming down to her family's for the holidays. She also said there were a lot of little things, expressions, and actions that told her, too. We have been going to this counselor for quite a while now and both of us really like her.

We came up with a plan - keep doing what I am doing because she thinks it is working. Now I didn't tell her about the DB techniques, I just called them different things.

Also, she said to keep working on the friendship part and rebuilding the emotional connection. She - as everyone on here - said to keep any relationship talk out of it and to let the W decide when to start talking about that (I swear its like she is reading this place). But that friendship and emotional connection was key, and they are so very intertwined.

My counselor is great. We also spent a good deal of time discussing the book Codependent No More that she let me borrow. She has been great in helping me to see a lot the things I was doing and helped me to discover why, which is really the key for me.

Guys, I want to say that its as if I feel a new and better me. Of course, there are still tinges of the wild emotion ride, but I feel a whole lot better about myself and things. She said she could tell and that she thinks the W notices, too. She mentioned how the W joked with me last night and touched my arm (which I completely forgot about).

My goal is keep working on myself and becoming the best person I can be. Tonight I will try to run for five miles and then some other exercises, too. I am going to get back to when I was in the best shape of my life!

I'm glad to hear things seem to be moving in a positive direction. Stay the course.

Hey Beckyb! Thank you for the encouraging words! How are things going?

I know I still have a long way to go, but this place has helped me on a personal level, too.

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She mentioned something in our session last night about about the separation, space, and all and said something to the effect of not knowing how to make things work again (I can't recall exactly). I wanted to tell her that just have to try and let things happen. Guess that wouldn't have been a good thing to say, eh?

Actually that is a hook she threw in the water, trying to get you to bite. My advice is to stay away from those type of statements, "I just don't know if it would work". That is a trap. You get into a R talk, which is not good. No matter how positive you may try to be.....she'll get you every time. Do not discuss the C sessions, period!

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When I walked in, the first thing she asked was what I thought about our couples session last night. I told her that it seemed to go well.

Why not say, "Oh, IDK. What did you think?"

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But that friendship and emotional connection was key, and they are so very intertwined.

Sure, if your W is working on saving the M.

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My counselor is great. We also spent a good deal of time discussing the book Codependent No More that she let me borrow. She has been great in helping me to see a lot the things I was doing and helped me to discover why, which is really the key for me.

Great!

Thank you, Sandi, for keeping me grounded as usual!

More journaling.

Last night was also uneventful. As I was getting ready for my run, the W asked if she could run with me - so I said sure. Loaded the kids in the running stroller and off we went.

Now mind you, I have been really good about detaching and abiding by the 37 and all - and haven't had any relationship talks in quite a while. In fact, no texts, emails, etc, either.

During the run, she was quite chatty - in fact, more chatty than usual. We didn't talk about us, but she opened up a lot about her next duty station and asked me what I thought on things, which has become a more frequent thing lately. It just seems like she is becoming more and more like her old self.

My to do on our relationship is still the same - there won't be any relationship talk until she initiates it. But I will continue to work on the friendship (NOT to be confused with the friendzone...) and rebuilding the connection. Maybe what I have been doing in that area is starting to take root - even it is baby roots, they are still roots nonetheless.

The counselor talked about rebuilding the connection. When we are in couples counseling together, if my W ever disagreed with the counselor on the relationship front she would be quick to point it out or whatever. In our last session, as everyone may recall, there was none of that and the W talked about how our laughing and joking was still there and actively happening. And she actually laughed and joked a little during that last session, too. That is one of the many things from that session that led the counselor to suggest working on rebuilding the connection - but in a way that doesn't bring relationship talk into it. I kind of liken it to pre-dating, if that makes sense.

As for me: I am continuing working on myself and also trying to be the best Dad that I can be. I spend as much time with the kids as possible. Some may say that playing tea party 50 times in a row or being the evil wrestler 50 times in a row would get old quick, but not for me. I love it and quite honestly, there isn't anything I would rather be doing.

You sound like you're in a good place, or at least a better one. I'm glad. Keep your spirits up but stay strong and consistent when it comes to interacting with your wife. I know how easy it is to want to believe things are back to normal. Take it slow. You seem to realize that, but I know that I always appreciate a reminder.

Time with the kids is definitely one of the few things keeping me going these days. There's simply nothing better than seeing your kids smile and laugh.

I am getting there, Cole. Thanks for stopping in!

I am in a better place as far as my own well-being. I am really, really trying to temper any expectations and not getting my hopes up - which is a problem I know I have. Thank you for the reminder! I need to hear it more than I want to admit!!

It's all about the kids. They ARE my life!

Ok guys, I am fluctuating between having hope and downright being scared that I will be crushed. I know that I am of the type who gets their hopes up. But what I don't know is how to stop that monster from emerging? How do I conquer it?

Now that there appears to be a candle at the end of the tunnel, I can't stop getting my hopes up.

Let me ask everyone this, let's say that there is a light. And that things start to grow...my W isn't the best at expressing her feelings and is also prideful - what if she doesn't come out and rightly say that she wants to start again, but instead feels that I should know this?

I wish I knew what to tell you. I keep screwing up and asking her about it every few weeks. That does not help me. Probably starts me back at square 1 again.

I hope that you are starting to see the light. I wish that for us all!

Good luck, and keep up the good work

Originally Posted By: dday

I wish I knew what to tell you. I keep screwing up and asking her about it every few weeks. That does not help me. Probably starts me back at square 1 again.

I hope that you are starting to see the light. I wish that for us all!

Good luck, and keep up the good work

Thank you for the kind words, dday. It really helps me out alot. There are times when I want to do a temperature check (more often than I afraid to admit), but I bite my tongue and go to the journal about it. I miss her, I really do. I keep telling myself that one day at a time and that the light I am seeing isn't a reflection from my own flashlight...
I really hope that the light is true!

Maybe the way to tell that the you're beginning to see the light at the end of the tunnel is when she starts to demonstrate true remorse and starts pursuing in a way that is undeniable.

Think about how most of us reacted when our spouses told us that they were no longer in love or when we learned about the A. We lost our minds and started begging and pleading and obviously pursuing. Maybe that's what you need to see before you can truly say that she is ready to work on your marriage and the light at the end of the tunnel is real. I'm sure I read about the roles of the LBS and WWS switching at some point and that the LBS needs to be careful not to carry too much anger and resentment if/when the WWS decides it's time to return and work on the R.

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Maybe the way to tell that the you're beginning to see the light at the end of the tunnel is when she starts to demonstrate true remorse and starts pursuing in a way that is undeniable.

Think about how most of us reacted when our spouses told us that they were no longer in love or when we learned about the A. We lost our minds and started begging and pleading and obviously pursuing. Maybe that's what you need to see before you can truly say that she is ready to work on your marriage and the light at the end of the tunnel is real. I'm sure I read about the roles of the LBS and WWS switching at some point and that the LBS needs to be careful not to carry too much anger and resentment if/when the WWS decides it's time to return and work on the R.

Very wise words, Cole! How are things in your neck of the woods?

Knowing my W as I do, she is very prideful and has a hard time admitting she was wrong. So far I haven't seen that.

I would more than love to see those actions out of her, but even when we were dating and getting serious she never was like that - she was/is very much like me and has a hard time expressing stuff and she definitely isn't a pursuer. I am not saying that she would behave in ways that is akin to pursuit, but I just don't know. Honestly, I really don't know what to make of her actions.

So here was our weekend and maybe you can decipher it for me: We were supposed to go to a military function but we ended up not going because her uniform wasn't ready and stained. So, she said why don't we just go out instead? Me, being the weakling that I am at times about her, said sure. The kids were already at the place they were spending the night so I thought why not. As we were getting ready, she was on the playful side poking me in the stomach and such. She also changed in front of me - something which she hasn't done in quite sometime. So we went out and had a great time and she was very chatty as she has been the past little bit. Came in pretty late and lay on the floor together watching a movie. Now, there wasn't any ML going on as she "isn't there yet," but it definitely seems her attitude toward me is warming.

I will say this, from the beginning of our dating I have noticed that she is unlike any woman I have ever met. Back then I knew some of her past and how it affected her. I also knew of her slowness to show affection even then. So, maybe that is affecting her now and she is beginning to thaw??? I just don't know.

I am still working on myself and trying to follow the advice here. Honestly, I really wonder if I push to much of the techniques on here what kind of affect it would have on her. I want to say that by doing what I have been has been working, but we will see. One of the things that I am most afraid of is if I go full out with the DB techniques is would she just give up? I believe in one of my posts somewhere I said that she doesn't give second chances at all. I just really don't know what to think.

Ok guys, need some advice:

As I said, we went out this weekend (at her suggestion - the kids were already at family due to pre-planned military event) and we had a very nice time...one of the better ones, I think. Stayed out late and ended up on the floor watching a movie.

I really want to "ask her out" again - what do you guys think?

E - I'm glad to hear that your relationship seems to be heading in a positive direction. At least it certainly seems like it. The fact that she suggested spending time with you is a good thing and I'm envious, I just would be absolutely sure to be strong and take it slow. Let her set the pace, let her pursue, don't ask her out but try to make it clear that you are open to the idea. Good luck!

My situation on the other hand seems to have played itself out and I expect to meet with a mediator after the holidays. I'll try to update my own thread rather than distract anyone from you.

What do you mean by "full out with the DB techniques"? What "techniques" are you talking about?

You have read the books right?

Hi Cole, thanks for stopping by. I really want to think that it is heading in the right direction. She does suggest things, but the closeness isn't there yet - I haven't tried to really touch her, as in hold hand or any other type of display. I think it's really hard to make it clear that I am open to the idea without pursuing, right?

I hope that isn't the case for you, Cole. Things always have a way of working out. Good luck my friend and keep stopping by!

MrBond,

It's kind of hard to explain it. Yes, I read it. The thing is my W is sort of different, I guess. I keep going back to her past (including childhood) and the affect it has on her thought processes today. One of her biggest things she has said is that I should have known things and never needed her to say it. Also, she is pretty skittish when about the heart and seems to run when things get bad.

That leads me to say what I did about going all out. I have been practicing Sandi's 37 pretty faithfully, although I do slip once in a while. I think that if I go too far and really quit showing interest, then she (in her mind) may think I have quit or just don't want her or whatever, therefore pushing the "leave" button even more. Although that may be all in my mind...

I guess in reality I am just scared to go to any extreme because - in her mind- it may push her even further down that road. She has said numerous times that she sometimes perceives things wrong but her mind sticks with it, if that makes sense.

Hi E,

I have seen a few posts where members worry that if they go too far in going dark or whatever shade of grey

their spouse will call it quits thinking they move on.

IMHO I think that before shutting down or moving on they always give a last tally ho. Be it an action or event either kindly or sarcastically and from their reaction you can tell how it affects them. If they do, take it with a pinch of salt, same as if they don't. Sometimes you missed the action or event as it comes in all shapes and sizes.

As their reactions can be for so many reasons dont waste too much time thinking about it. If they want you or the R to work, they will not checkout so easily.

As for you, I do not know your full situation but if you detach correctly and not shut out she shouldnt be in that position.

I think that we confuse how we acted in our M where we probably did more shutting out than detaching as well as have a different dynamic of a downward spiral and how we act now. I saw a post where a member explained it perfectly. The difference between moving on and moving forward. In our M we were maybe moving out/on and here we have to learn to move forward.

Maybe a vet can help out here.

Peace

Suddenly I just feel really down for some reason. I just miss her and us now. I really want to tell her this, but I know how counter-productive it is. I also want to find a way to tell her the door is open on my end without seeming like a pursuer, any ideas?

Don't do it!

I went through that on a daily basis! Don't do it!

"The thing is my W is sort of different, I guess. I keep going back to her past (including childhood) and the affect it has on her thought processes today. One of her biggest things she has said is that I should have known things and never needed her to say it."

I don't think you read the books carefully. This is just the way M is. Spouses get close and assume that the other should know what the other is thinking. It's called mindreading. What it really is, is a lack of communication.

"Also, she is pretty skittish when about the heart and seems to run when things get bad."

If you haven't noticed, all of the WASs on here are like that.

"That leads me to say what I did about going all out. I have been practicing Sandi's 37 pretty faithfully, although I do slip once in a while."

You do know those aren't Sandi's rules right? They are in the book.

"I think that if I go too far and really quit showing interest, then she (in her mind) may think I have quit or just don't want her or whatever, therefore pushing the "leave" button even more. Although that may be all in my mind..."

Again, I question if you really read the books because that's not what DBing is all about. DBing is to do more of what works and less of what doesn't. You can't control her actions or what she's going to do. You're doing that out of fear. Instead, do something and see how she reacts. If she reacts favorably, then do more of that. If she doesn't like what you do, then do less of that.

"I guess in reality I am just scared to go to any extreme because - in her mind- it may push her even further down that road. She has said numerous times that she sometimes perceives things wrong but her mind sticks with it, if that makes sense."

I don't know why you think you need to go to extremes. Make small changes and moves here and there so she doesn't even notice them. Eventually those things will become habit.

Thank you, MrBond, for your help! It seems that you have hit my nail on the head. I did read the books, but a month or so back I looked for it in my hiding place and it was gone...

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Make small changes and moves here and there so she doesn't even notice them. Eventually those things will become habit.

Excellent advice, sir! Thank you for your help and thanks for stopping by in my thread!

that is great advice

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that is great advice

It most certainly is. All of the posters who have so graciously stopped in have given great advice. I certainly can' thank them enough.

Originally Posted By: Evil_E

[quote]Thank you for responding. How far away will his next duty station be? My W's will be roughly 2 1/2 hours away. Which brings me to this - for a W and mom who supposedly loves her children so much, why is she so resistant to all of us moving with her? I mean, wouldn't a loving mom want her children near hear all the time instead of being a weekend mom? Her excuses for us staying here: 1) great school system and our son is having some trouble but they are helping him; 2) near my family - she has always been big on family support even though they only see my family every two or three weeks (even though we are only 5 mins apart); 3) financial - we currently have two houses (one is rented) and couldn't afford it. I call BS on this one. The area where her next duty station is like job heaven for my field, where I would make much more than am now. I even said I could pay the house here and we could either rent it out or come back every couple of weeks. No go.

My H is going to be moving to the opposite coast for his next duty station, so when he leaves here, he will be limited to seeing the kids only on opposite major holidays and a couple weeks during the summer.

I truly can't understand how ANY mother could be accepting of leaving her children. On the other hand, being in the military, H has spent half of our children's lives deployed or otherwise apart from our family, so separation isn't something unfamiliar to us. Maybe something similar is going on with your W?

As for quality time, when we first separated, my H would still come around and we'd do things with the kids, go out to dinner, etc., and he would say sometimes that it made him feel like we were a family again. Then he stopped doing anything at all with us for a long time. I tried and tried to get him involved with the family again in hopes it would help him reattach, but he wouldn't have anything to do with it. Lately he has started doing stuff again, but since we are actually in the D process, I don't put much meaning in it. Last night he was here and carved pumpkins with us. Everything was pleasant, but when D13 stepped out of the room, he asked me out of the blue if I were enjoying my single life, and kept asking me if I were dating anyone. I blew off the question and then D13 walked back into the room and everything was dropped. Very weird and uncomfortable though. I wanted to say..."you're D-ing me, why do you care who/what I'm doing?" lol

Hi annab74! How are things going?

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My H is going to be moving to the opposite coast for his next duty station, so when he leaves here, he will be limited to seeing the kids only on opposite major holidays and a couple weeks during the summer.

Ugh. I couldn't even begin to imagine that!

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I truly can't understand how ANY mother could be accepting of leaving her children. On the other hand, being in the military, H has spent half of our children's lives deployed or otherwise apart from our family, so separation isn't something unfamiliar to us. Maybe something similar is going on with your W?

I just don't get it, either. My W has never deployed since having children and has only really been away for a few short TAD's. It really is unfamiliar to us. Even though she really loves them, it almost seems as if she is unfazed by being separated from them. I hope that is not the case. Maybe she talks over that with her own counselor (she is currently having sessions with two counselors).

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Lately he has started doing stuff again, but since we are actually in the D process, I don't put much meaning in it.

Wonder what his reason is?

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Everything was pleasant, but when D13 stepped out of the room, he asked me out of the blue if I were enjoying my single life, and kept asking me if I were dating anyone. I blew off the question and then D13 walked back into the room and everything was dropped. Very weird and uncomfortable though. I wanted to say..."you're D-ing me, why do you care who/what I'm doing?" lol

Interesting turn of events, eh? I honestly don't know what to make of that. Maybe there are seeds of doubt sprouting? Who knows, though. But that he is coming around again and asking those questions would make me think that maybe there is doubt somewhere in there. Let me put it this way, if I were the one suddenly showing up again and asking questions like that, it wouldn't be because I was just curious...

Keep your chin up!

There are just so many things going through my head now that I don't know what to do. I think that my journaling is helping me to some degree.

I am proud to say - and not ashamed to admit - that it has been a while since I have even thought of snooping. At least I conquered that demon! Ok, so that may not be a big step but it is to me.

We ended up spending a good bit of time together yesterday because she had some day surgery done. I don't know what to make of it, but leading up to it she asked me several times if I would be there. I mean, I know that any number of her friends could have picked her up or whatever, but she asked me. I know I shouldn't make anything of it and that I shouldn't get my hopes up, but I do. Guess that is one of my demons... And she has been sending me funny pictures to keep me entertained during work. Again, I know not to get my hopes up, but that was something not seen for quite some time.

Its been a bit since we have had any relationship talk. Sometimes I just want to shake her and say snap out of it! And there are times when I want to do a temperature check. What if she wants to start on us but is too stubborn/prideful to say it? I mean, how is one supposed to know anything if they don't ask?

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I just don't get it, either. My W has never deployed since having children and has only really been away for a few short TAD's. It really is unfamiliar to us. Even though she really loves them, it almost seems as if she is unfazed by being separated from them. I hope that is not the case. Maybe she talks over that with her own counselor (she is currently having sessions with two counselors).

Maybe she is just dealing with it in her own way. At this stage of the game, clearly our spouses are not likely to share confidences with us, so I don't think its unreasonable to think she might be hurting over the idea more than she expresses. Hopefully that's the case. Or maybe she is just too caught up in her own feelings at the moment that it doesn't allow the loss to actually sink in. If she actually moves without all of you, perhaps that might even serve as a wakeup call that will make her more amenable to working things out. I have to believe at some point they will wake up and see things for what they are are.

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Maybe she is just dealing with it in her own way. At this stage of the game, clearly our spouses are not likely to share confidences with us, so I don't think its unreasonable to think she might be hurting over the idea more than she expresses. Hopefully that's the case. Or maybe she is just too caught up in her own feelings at the moment that it doesn't allow the loss to actually sink in. If she actually moves without all of you, perhaps that might even serve as a wakeup call that will make her more amenable to working things out. I have to believe at some point they will wake up and see things for what they are are.

I hope so, too. I never in a million years would have thought otherwise. Although she does say she needs some quiet time from them every so often...

She is moving without us. She has already gotten her apartment. I hope that does serve as a wakeup for her.

I think those quiet nights at her new apartment will get her thinking...

I agree with Thornton. She hasn't really had to process the loss of her family yet since you have remained together in the same house. Instead she has been able to spend all her time focusing only on what she doesn't like and wants to get away from. After she moves, the reality of it all is going to crash in on her. That's the point she will be forced to figure out if this is really what she wants or not. I think it would be a great time to go NC on her as much as possible too. Let her feel the emptiness and silence.

Thank you annab and Thornton for stopping by with your usual excellent advice and words of wisdom!

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I agree with Thornton. She hasn't really had to process the loss of her family yet since you have remained together in the same house. Instead she has been able to spend all her time focusing only on what she doesn't like and wants to get away from. After she moves, the reality of it all is going to crash in on her. That's the point she will be forced to figure out if this is really what she wants or not. I think it would be a great time to go NC on her as much as possible too. Let her feel the emptiness and silence.

I really hope you are right. I know that this may be bad to say about a loved one, but part of me hopes that when she gets to her new place that her world and reality really does come crashing down on her. Maybe then she will come to her senses. Is that a bad thing to think? I think that she needs to have to reality hit her in the head and knock her out of this fog. At one time she was convinced that everything would be OK and the kids would not suffer in the least - even if they have never seen us fight or act unkindly toward each other or the like. I

New thread:

Where to begin? Part 3