My first thread was titled "Avidya" which is a Sanskrit word whose literal meaning is ignorance, delusion, unlearned and unwise.
Here is a link to Avidya:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2597117&page=1My second thread was titled "Vidya" which is also a Sanskrit word whose literal meaning is correct knowledge or clarity.
Here is a link to Vidya :
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2601644&page=1The name I have chosen to title this thread is "Sati-sampajanna".
Sati means mindfulness. Mindfulness focuses primarily on understanding what is, on what is going on, and learning how to be present for what is, learning how to be present for our experience, to understand the way things are.
Sampajanna means wisdom, or understanding, or clear comprehension, it has a lot to do with learning how we can respond to the way things are.
Sati-sampajanna means a clear understanding of reality appearing in the present moment.
In regards to my marriage, by the end of my second thread I hoped to have correct knowledge or clarity, Vidya. To some extent I feel I do have clarity and have achieved this goal.
In regards to my marriage, by the end of this thread I hope to have an understanding of reality appearing in the present moment and the wisdom of clear comprehension in action.
What a beautiful thread title and equally powerful intention. May the clarity and wisdom you seek in your marriage be apparent by the end of the this thread Mutatio!
Big hug,
PP
Thank you PP, I gave it some thought. George Harrison wrote a song with the line "If you don't know where you'really going, any road will take you there".
I want to keep turning corners, keep moving forward, allow myself to reach my fullest potential.
I love the thread title! You are clearly moving in the right direction.
I keep thinking about how you greet your wife, and she just ignores you. I thought about what if it were my H, and he chose not to respond to my greeting. It would irritate me, and I would be tempted to say something snappy. Following DB protocol - I would still address it, because it's rude. I think I would say something like: "I'm just trying to be nice to you. When you ignore me, it feels like you're trying to communicate something to me without words. Would you like to tell me what you're trying to communicate, or would you prefer I just not speak to you at all?"
Give it some thought. But I would not tolerate it. It's rude.
Thank you Judy, your support buoys me. I agree it is rude behavior. I am tempted to say something to her but wonder if it is even worth it. If she doesn't want to talk to me I can't make her.
My plan is to be polite, model good behavior and respect her desire for distance between us. This way I comply with her wish for space between us and I can maintain good manners. If she chooses to be rude, that is her choice. I have chosen a different path.
It does hurt me and sadden me and I would love to talk to her about it but I guess the bottom line reason I don't call her on it is because I am afraid of losing her.
It does hurt me and sadden me and I would love to talk to her about it but I guess the bottom line reason I don't call her on it is because I am afraid of losing her.
Your fear is holding you back, my friend. It also means your detachment isn't as strong as it should be. It is not good for
YOU to allow someone to disrespect you by acting in a rude manner. I, personally, would not tolerate it. She is telling you something every time she does it; she is saying "I do not respect you."
I'm not trying to push you where you are not ready to go, but I can tell you from my point of view as a woman, if my husband allowed me to treat him like that...I would view him as weak. Weak is not an attractive quality in a man. You do not have to be mean or aggressive...just don't be weak.
Does this make sense?
I'll digest this Judy, thank you.
I agree with you Judy and am of the fence on the rude behavior. The next time this happens when we are alone I will address it.
Thank you Judy for the insight. I am very grateful for this community of friends.
Hi Mutatio,
Passing by to support you my friend. You are doing great. I love the titles of your posts. You are heading in a great direction.
I agree with Judy, you need to address the rudeness with a loving approach, set your boundaries. You are a human being, and deserve to be respected. Love yourself, respect yourself, and care for yourself. After you address it, and it becomes clear that she prefer not to speak to her, then the decision is yours my friend. You can always continue to greet her, but not expect anything in return, this allows you to still be happy with yourself for doing what you want to do and feel right doing.
Much love and support my friend.
Mutatio
You are getting a lot of support and great advice.
I would like to explore some of the early posts we shared. It has taken a while for me to formulate my thoughts.
In essence we went for the obvious last time, I think we have some tricker stuff to explore.
Just a reminder!
Mutatio,
This work is about you, that is the best thing you can do for you.
You described your R as being a play in four acts, you are now moving into act 5.
Your W may not see the R in the same way.
Let's see if I have this right
1. The loving phase
2. The abusive phase
3. The beat Mutatio up phase
4. The WW breakaway phase
You described these as clearly delineated in your description. I can't see it that way, phase 2 was when WW switched off, and stayed switched off, I think. MWD describes this clearly in her opening chapters of both DR and DB.
There are 4 layers of work to do each layer has its deficits and advantages. This is a wonderful opportunity to atone and rebuild.
Mutatio these layers can be useful to you to start to rebuild yourself, to help you detach and to unravel your own feelings and involvement.
To build love for yourself, so you become confident in yourself. To become.
peace
V
-------------------
Vanilla - So here is a very tough question, which of course you can choose not to answer.
How does WW see the acts in the play?
The transition between the loving phase and the abusive phase was because of 2 new factors in the equation. The first was my new job. I worked for her father. I wanted to work there, made good money but my skill's did not complement the job. I struggled and at best provided a "C" grade performance. I was very hard on myself during that time. I wanted to prove my worth to my wife and my FIL. It was a night job, getting up at midnight and working till noon. I grew to hate the job because of the hours and my poor performance. I brought my disappointment home and was mean, grumpy and a bully.
The second factor was the beginning of our family with my children being born. I began to feel trapped in the job and my wife was spending less time with me because of the children. I became unhappy with the lack of attention from my wife. I knew the children needed her so I bottled it up and became mean and a bully. I did not help her in the day to day maintenance of the children because I was exhausted, 4-5 hours sleep a night. She says she raised the kids like a single parent. There are many small incidents that switched my wife off. It was the death of a thousand cuts. I was a weekend binge drinker during this time. I would consume a case of beer a weekend.
I quit drinking at the beginning of the beat Mutatio up phase. I sensed my wife pulling away. She was in a EA/PA. The EA was going strong for 2 months when they met. It was heavy petting and they were planning to meet and go all the way when they got caught. I felt guilty because of my 16 years of bad behavior and she because of the affair. She says now she was done with the marriage then. We should have gone to couples therapy then but did not. We rebuilt our relationship on our own and it was great for 3 years and the last 4 drifted apart slowly. I became codependent after the scare of losing her.
During the WW breakaway phase I felt her emotionally absent and pushed to get her back and was trying when she determined she was done with the marriage and me.
What did you do to take action after act 2?
I quit drinking (sober 7 years) and quit my job working for her father. Jumped back into my old career. I tried to be a better father and was, she says I am a good father now. I stopped being mean and a bully. Not perfect but 99%. I began cooking dinner every day.
What actions are you taking now? IC?
I go to IC once a week. I just completed a cognitive therapy 12 session therapy, on anger management while going to IC. I have joined a Buddhist Meditation Center, going twice a week. I will begin Meditation teacher training this fall as part of my GAL. I am taking a adult ed class in the fall on a subject I have great interest in, also GAL.
Vanilla or anyone else, I would appreciate any insights or questions you have have, thank you for your support.
------------------------------------------------------
Hi Vanilla, thank you for helping me on my journey. I could use your sage advice. Here's a little more backstory on chapters 2 & 3.
The last two years of chapter 2 are important. At the beginning of the last two years I found a new job and left my FIL's business. The business was doing poorly, the hours (nights) were really rough and I hated the job. My wife and I discussed it and we agreed to make the change. After working the new job my wife wanted me to take a more active roll in my children's lives. I behaved better but not good enough in hindsight. I worked around the house instead of taking the kids to the pool. I drank beer and worked in the garage. The truth is I asked the kids if they wanted to go to the pool and they didn't want to go. I now realize that between my bad behavior and not doing things with them there was not a deep relationship with them.
My wife told me later that after changing jobs she really hoped that I would change. In her eyes I did not. One year before the EA/PA I began to sense her pulling away. Reduced emotional and physical intimacy. The summer vacation before the beginning of the EA we had no sex. That fall I sensed her pulling away more and more. When I would come into the room she would immediately close her laptop or turn it in a way so I could not see what she was doing.
These behaviors worried me, I felt something was wrong. I knew that I my drinking was a problem. I wanted to be a better man for my wife and my family. Sensing my wife pulling away and and knowing my selfish behaviors were the cause was the mechanism. I had a moment of clarity and stopped drinking. One month later the EA/PA came to light.
I was shaken to my core. I truly believed I caused my wife's EA/PA with the years of bad behavior. I swore off the booze, meanness a__-
nd bullying. I blamed these behaviors for all the problems we were having. It was easy to drop those habits by blaming them for my wife's actions.
I now realize that I did not do enough to repair the marriage. I will regret this mistake till the day I die. I love my wife and always will. The sad thing is that may not be enough.
--------------------------------------------
Good morning Vanilla. Here is the chain of events I believe you are looking for. To set the stage the time period is the fall of 2008. I am beginning my third year at my new job. At this point I have been behaving better (by old me standards) but I still drink a case of beer each weekend. My wife has been on a geek discussion forum for about a year where she has many friends, one a male, living 25 miles away. During the summer of 2008 she seems a little more distant. She enjoys her online life and I am happy it gives her joy. I am a little jealous of the time she spends online but I don't discuss it because of my guilt from behavior in the past.
During September and October my wife is spending more and more time on laptop. She is in the room with me and the kids and is somewhat involved with us but she always has the laptop. In hindsight the online EA has already began. They, my wife and the male from 25 miles away have never met in person. Halloween 2008 is the day that the the EA becomes sexual. What they will do to each other, bad mouth their spouses, yada yada yada. It consumes more of my wife's time. She is secretive with the laptop and always has it close by.
In early November I begin to see my wife has really changed, more distant the ever. I realize something is really wrong but don't know what. I've be thinking for the last half of year that I should stop drinking because it only leads to problems between my wife and kids. Now with her pulling away I really consider it to be affecting my relationship. Also during this time I start to wonder if my wife is cheating, its just a hunch.
Now for the moment of truth, the tipping point, the flip of the switch, Thanksgiving 2008. I had a few beers at my wife's cousin house Thanksgiving day. It was a nice holiday for one and all and in the evening we are heading home. My daughters are in the backseat fighting nonstop about their territorial space and it gets ugly. My wife is dealing with it while I drive but is not succeeding at making it stop. I grow impatient and chime in. I say to my eldest daughter to stop being like bin laden. My wife becomes very angry with me and rips me a new orifice. She says she can't take it anymore and she is done. She repeats this to her self a few times. That night I decide to stop drinking although I do not tell my wife. Friday I do not drink. Saturday we have plans to see a band we like with a large group of friends we know. We all meet early for dinner and drinks. I decide to drink with my friends. I get pretty drunk. We all leave and walk over to the show, its a small theater venue. When the music begins my wife says she is going to stand down in front of the stage. I hang back because its to crowded. I am listening to the band in my drunken stupor and watch my wife talking with some guy (not Mr EA). It goes on for a couple songs and I realize I am losing her, that I have driven her away with my bad behavior and drinking. I get really sad at the state of my marriage and sit down for a while thinking about the situation and I decide to quit drinking. Eventually I go down and hangout with my wife. Sunday morning I tell my wife I'm going to stop drinking. I have not had a drink since that night almost 7 years ago.
On December 10th 2008, a rainy Wednesday, Mr. EA decides to drive to my wife's workplace. She meets him in the parking lot of her building and they sit in her car for over an hour. They talk, hold hands, kiss and grope. I was at work but for some reason I just knew something was wrong. They decide to meet again after the holidays and "do it". On December 21st, we get a phone call at 5 am from Mr. EA's wife. She tell's my wife its over and to back off. Later that day my wife comes clean and tells me it all.
Questions the paragraphs above did not answer-
Did you go to AA? No I don't need it. I never want to drink again. Every difficulty with my wife reminds me of that fact.
What did that change feel like for you? I was glad to removing such a terrible habit from my life, marriage and children.
How did WW react? My wife was glad that I chose to quit drinking. I suspect she had a wait and see attitude about my resolve because it part of my every weekend activities.
It was two weeks and you discovered EA, what happened in those two weeks between pivot point and EA discovery? Between the Sunday I quit drinking and my wife beginning the PA nothing unusual happened. I was completely sober and tried to be a nice, less selfish person.
I hope this answers the questions you have Vanilla. I would be happy to answer any more that may arise. I would love to hear your take on my situation. Be well
So, I want to explore phase 1. In that phase you stated that you gave up your desires to work for FIL I his business. You also implied there was a poor fit of skills.
I don't think the exact details are relevant but the principles are.
Why did you decide to work for FIL?
Having done that why did you continue when it was clearly damaging to you?
Where does the desire to submit to this come from?
Have you always 'fitted' or made 'best fit'.
Knowing there was a bad fit what did you do? Re skill? If not why not?
When did you break free of this and how did it happen?
Had you been bendy man before, twisting like a pretzel to fit in?
Is this still a factor in your life?
V
Thank you for responding V. I will begin responding to your questions tomorrow night.
Today was a good day. I had planned to go to a sculpture garden with my eldest daughter all week. The weather was good. I asked my wife if she wanted to come mid morning. She said maybe. One hour later she said no, I said okay. One hour before we were leaving, she said she changed her mind and would come.
I waited to this morning to invite her because she has stopped planning ahead and will say no to everything.
It was a nice afternoon and everything went as I would have expected. There was some small talk that went well. We all went out to dinner later and that was fine. She is in her room now with the dog. She said that she had enough of everyone and wanted to be alone. So here I am with you and watching Dr. Who.
Today was a good day. I know that it is a predictor of nothing. I know I still maybe divorced. I also know that the past cannot be changed and today was a good day.
I realized there is an area that I need to work on, validating responses. I read the cheat sheet a while ago but because there has been so little conversation between us, for so long, I could not practice and improve my technique. I will now practice on my kids so if and when I am lucky enough to talk to my wife again validating responses with be second nature for me.
Today was a good day.
I am glad you had a good day, Mutatio. Validating is hard, and I am in the same boat, with very limited communication you have few chances to validate. I also agree with V that you need to call out W on her rude behavior.
Hope you have a peaceful evening. You are doing really well. And I love the title's of your threads.
Thank you photoka, I appreciate your support. I am exhausted all, and must say good night.
Ignoring you is in my opinion the adult equivalent of sulking and passive aggressive behaviour. If you asked " do you want to talk about it", You would only get petulance. It's hurt hobbit behaviour, which only WW can resolve.
This is a big sulk by WW, an enormous big sulk. Like a teenager.
WW is silently saying that deep hurt is being felt because in her eyes you are utterly selfish. I am not saying you are selfish by the way, just WW has a thought you are.
Disappearing to another room isn't an option because you might forget that she is having a huge sulk so she is very visible and she pretends you don't exist. But it has to be where you can see her or it won't have an effect. Especially dramatic on your arrival or departure.
Guy Browning says:
No eye contact is the clearest possible sign that a major sulk is under way and secondly, if you were to do anything funny or loving she might inadvertently smile and the sulk would be irreparably damaged. It's a cast-iron rule that once a sulk has started it must not be interrupted. It's like frozen food - once you've defrosted you can't then refrost.
Sulks can last anywhere between seven minutes and seven years. Teenagers are in an almost perpetual sulk because they are in a continual state of being misunderstood.
When people are in a sulk they discover how much harder everyone else has to work to humour them. Some people enjoy this so much that they decide to become permanently grumpy.
The sulk, like the trifle, is a peculiarly British thing. That's because it's the form of emotional expression for people who don't know how to express themselves. The sulk says, "I can't express myself, so I'm not going to express anything and you'll just have to guess what I would have expressed had I been able to express what I wanted to express."
The sulkee then has to decide their response to the sulker. Ignoring the sulk is like ignoring the laundry basket - it'll keep building up until it gets very unpleasant indeed. What's generally required to end a sulk is a mixture of complete attention, physical reassurance, brief subjection to verbal sarcasm, and then major admission of guilt and selfishness.
As the air clears it's absolutely vital not to say, "That was a big sulk, wasn't it?" This is the quickest possible way of launching the world's largest, longest and deepest sulk.
-----------------------------
I do hope there is a pout to go along with it, an insy lip quiver or a bite to hold ithe lip still.
The best thing to do is to ignore it, this beast will keep reappearing the more attention you give it. Don't say nice things, don't jolly along, when entering just smile and nod, stay silent. No reaction, smiling face, you are pleased to be home, so normalise. Hell, even whistle a happy tune.
Otherwise you are temp checking every time you do.
It's a behaviour that may stop when you act as if it isn't happening.
It's a behaviour that happens when there is poor emotional education. Let it be that.
V
sorry fat finger posted too soon!
The above is conflicted Guy Browning suggests that the sulker wants soothing, but of course with an adult this won't work as if you soothe they have a chance to reject you. This is passive aggressive revenge. Poor emotional regulation often as a result of childhood indulgence by a parent. This isn't disengagement to get thinking time and cooling off. Space to process, as it happens every time it's pointed.
It can also happen as a way of setting one parent against another.
It's manipulation and level 3 ( on a scale to 6) abuse, ignoring you. Very unpleasant. You can see it as disengagement an alternative to a full blown rant.
So what has caused this passive aggressive behaviour?
I think it's a poor coping style because of, fear of failure, resistance to authority, repressed anger. It can also be depression.
Try not to label WW, although I think you do need respect. This is very disrespectful and I think important you don't take it personally, although it feels very personal and pointed. It's more about WW than you. It's her issue not yours and I know that is hard when you feel you are the target. The alternative is tantrums and ranting. Passive aggressive= passive + aggressive, passive without open anger, is still angry. Although disengagement is better than openly ranting.
Were her parents controlling and intolerant, punishing her when she disagreed, sending her to her room for hours for asserting herself or were they indulgent, possibly one indulgent and the other resistant to that?
This won't have come out of the blue, it's likely been a small game between the two of you that worked. It will have its roots somewhere in soothing or its being done because in the past it has been effective tactic. It can stop being effective, you are not responsible for WW health and happiness she is.
Your higher power is asking you to dig deep. The answer is there.
Validate if you can and then go be active elsewhere. If it persists then the adult in you may need to acknowledge the disengagement in some way. Maybe something to think how that could be done.
V
Such a great post V you are amazing with your wealth of knowledge
Mutatio sounds like you had a lovley day i do not know about you but I find whenever I have a nice day that involved my w I feel hope but then reality hits again
Enjoy the day for what it is
Take care my friend
Ghost
Good Morning one and all.
Ghost I am like you but I've learned though is past performance is not an indicator of future results. It was a gift from the universe and I will move forward knowing Christmas comes but once a year.
Vanilla, thank you for sharing your wisdom with me. I will answer you questions about me tonight. I do have a moment now to answer your questions about my wife.
Her parents are both smart. Her father worked and her mother ran the house, as it was in that generation. My FIL is a very wise man. My MIL is strong willed and wants things her way, the right way, just so. My wife has one older sister. SIL was the rebel, challenged her mother and wanted to do things her way. My wife is very smart, saw the SIL MIL battles and chose a different path. My wife is an advoider, she kept/keeps her parents in the dark, has no conflict and does what she wants.
V said "I think it's a poor coping style because of, fear of failure, resistance to authority, repressed anger. It can also be depression."
I think it is all of the above. At times she is depressed.
V said "Were her parents controlling and intolerant, punishing her when she disagreed, sending her to her room for hours for asserting herself or were they indulgent, possibly one indulgent and the other resistant to that?"
MIL is controlling. Not sure about the rest.
V, should I mention the ignoring me when I say good morning? I am back on the fence. Maybe I should say good morning and ignore her rudeness. If she gives me the silent treatment there is not much I can do about. She talks about issues, briefly and to the point. Just nothing extra. I can live like this now. She must be struggling. I feel I should just ride it out while I work on myself.
I love my wife and feel she needs to work through her own issues.
Let's see what tomorrow brings. Thoughts V, anyone?
I would just say "morning, want a coffee' if she ignores you say ' that's a no then, ok"
Whistle, and move on.
V
Sorry for some reason the great internet in the sky scrambled my post. (Scratches head in bewilderment)
I would just say "morning, want a coffee' if she ignores you say ' that's a no then, ok"
Whistle, make happy busy noises, clanking of dishes, music on the radio and move on.
The headphones trick works too, listen to the MP3 player, take headphone out of one ear, cock head, shrug shoulders, then put ear phones back in.
Music selection of awesome, or meditation as the mood takes you. Any thing that raises your mood. In addition before you enter the house or room, ground yourself.
Another trick is to give your strong sexy Mutatio self a name, you are good at naming, call on him before you sashay into the room. Wear sassy aftershave, not the fly spray type most men wear. Freshen before you enter. Wakes your senses. Changes your state, this is a good habit to acquire. Acting as if changes your state.
If you want to see how to do it then a demo by Tony Robbins on the Operah Lifeclass live stage with a guy who tapped into his "general" persona. It's about 32 minutes in and is a live demo.
V
Vanilla asked these questions of my past and I will try to answer them now. You may want to change the channel its not interesting.
Why did you decide to work for FIL?
I wanted to make money and his business was doing very well. By getting a good paying job out of the gate we could buy a house and start a family right a way.
Having done that why did you continue when it was clearly damaging to you?
By the time I realized that I didn't like the work I was trapped. My wife worked part time to be with children so my income was needed for family, mortgage and everything else. I felt obligated to my FIL/MIL they took me in and trained me. I worried what they would think of me, leaving a good paying job and putting everything at risk because I was unhappy in a job FIL did all his life. Fear I would not measure up. I could never find a job that paid as well.
Where does the desire to submit to this come from?
I thought it was the right thing to do. I had to be a man and do what had to be done for the family even if I didn't like it.
Have you always 'fitted' or made 'best fit'.
I don't understand your question, I'll guess at what your asking. All my work has been similar. My job for FIL was a salesman. I was not very good at it. I went back to previous type job after quitting and much happier.
Knowing there was a bad fit what did you do? Re skill? If not why not?
I worked 12-14 hour day, worked midnight to 2 pm. came home, always exhausted, watched kids, maintained house and went to bed around 7-8 pm to get 4 hours sleep. Did this for 16 years. There was no time to train to be a better salesman.
When did you break free of this and how did it happen?
Two big events happened in the last few years that ended up slowly killing the business. I began to hate going to work. I felt the business was dying, there was nothing I could do about it and I did not want to stay to the bitter end. I found a new job and then I quit. The business lasted 3 more years and then closed.
Had you been bendy man before, twisting like a pretzel to fit in?
This salesman job was the first time I tried to do something I was not good for a long period of time in my life. Now I'm guessing your meaning more then just work, but life. Since 2008 and my wifes EA/PA I became co-dependent and would do anything to please her out of fear of losing her.
Is this still a factor in your life?
I am working in a profession that is a good match for my skill set. Again I'm guessing your meaning more then just work, but life. I am not codependent like before BD and am doing GAL things now.
Vanilla, I am happy to answer more questions if you have them. Thank you for helping me improve myself.
These answers are important, very incisive and well thought out.
I need the mulling time.
V
Yesterday evening it very quiet here again. I wonder what triggers it? Me or her, bio chemical, mental?
Yesterday evening it very quiet here again. I wonder what triggers it? Me or her, bio chemical, mental?
Irrelevant my dear friend... Quite possibly it's all 3 of the above.
She is in the world of pain right now and lashing out. Have you ever seen a dog or any animal with an injury and as you tried to help it it would bite at you because it is causing it pain. They aren't seeing your actions as helping but only see their pain...
Thanks for sharing that insight Vapo. It was a perfect metaphor and "Irrelevant" sums it.
I saw my IC today. I was told I was behaving well in regards to my wife. I responded that my friends told me what to do.
Thank you all for your help, without you all I would be lost.
Not much more to report, same old same old.
Sleep well
"Same old, same old" sounds like you are bored by your sitch, but it's probably more like you are able to deal with it better so there aren't as many things that surprise or concern you anymore. That's good news, right?
Vanilla asked these questions of my past and I will try to answer them now. You may want to change the channel its not interesting.
Why did you decide to work for FIL?
I wanted to make money and his business was doing very well. By getting a good paying job out of the gate we could buy a house and start a family right a way.
I am assuming that the house and family was something that you both wanted, discussed and decided on. You paid the price by working in a family business always a risk.
Having done that why did you continue when it was clearly damaging to you?
By the time I realized that I didn't like the work I was trapped. My wife worked part time to be with children so my income was needed for family, mortgage and everything else. I felt obligated to my FIL/MIL they took me in and trained me. I worried what they would think of me, leaving a good paying job and putting everything at risk because I was unhappy in a job FIL did all his life. Fear I would not measure up. I could never find a job that paid as well.
Money is a great servant but a poor master as you discovered. The fear was a double bind. Damned if you do and damned if you don't, in actual fact lack of confidence in yourself was the main cause, faulty thinking that you would lack success in any other field. In fact you succeeded in making your move. What is interesting to me is that you perceived your skill sets as a poor fit and illustrates that others opinions of you and pleasing them is more important than your own success and achievement.
Where does the desire to submit to this come from?
I thought it was the right thing to do. I had to be a man and do what had to be done for the family even if I didn't like it.
Were you trying to compete with FIL? Where did the image of a man come from? Do you see a distinction between men and women in the workplace? In the home?
Have you always 'fitted' or made 'best fit'.
I don't understand your question, I'll guess at what your asking. All my work has been similar. My job for FIL was a salesman. I was not very good at it. I went back to previous type job after quitting and much happier.
OK, so when you say much happier are you still sacrificing your potential for expediency?
Did this create resentment which leaked into your home life?
When you say 'not good at it' , that must have put pressure on you every time you went to work. This says to me that you lived with a very high level of dissonance, in essence this held back your personal development. I can only imagine the frustration.
Knowing there was a bad fit what did you do? Re skill? If not why not?
I worked 12-14 hour day, worked midnight to 2 pm. came home, always exhausted, watched kids, maintained house and went to bed around 7-8 pm to get 4 hours sleep. Did this for 16 years. There was no time to train to be a better salesman.
You worked through the night, sacrificing daylight hours, that shows work ethic and a low regard for your health and wellbeing. I too work long hours but I enjoy what I do and I also ensure I keep my skill set up to date so the stress is not eustress. In the long term 4 hours of sleep will cause physiological destruction. This physiological structure seems to be the root cause of the following events. Using alcohol to medicate. You gave up alcohol and I think the underlying steps to recovery weren't followed, this leaves a vacuum.
I do find it difficult to accept the lack of time, the tiredness and lack of sleep would have diminished your desire to up skill in an area you did not enjoy and felt you did not fit.
When did you break free of this and how did it happen?
Two big events happened in the last few years that ended up slowly killing the business. I began to hate going to work. I felt the business was dying, there was nothing I could do about it and I did not want to stay to the bitter end. I found a new job and then I quit. The business lasted 3 more years and then closed.
You refer to this as a 'job' rather than a career. One of the important parts of life is work which brings enjoyment and satisfaction. To what extent are you now unable to find the time to develop your skills?
Had you been bendy man before, twisting like a pretzel to fit in?
This salesman job was the first time I tried to do something I was not good for a long period of time in my life. Now I'm guessing your meaning more then just work, but life. Since 2008 and my wifes EA/PA I became co-dependent and would do anything to please her out of fear of losing her.
I think this answers much of the frustration in your life. My thought is this is a barrier to you discovering you. In my view a career development plan would give you confidence. To see yourself as a man with a plan. This involves great detail and discussing with a specialist in life management. The strength this would give you, the satisfaction would be enormous. Reward follows performance and that derives from a skill and personal development plan. Every one of us works for themselves and are responsible for their career.
Have a career not a job. Even if this means you like where you are and doing what you do, knowing your company, industry and products. Developing hard and soft skills. I was advised early in my career that 5% of my net salary should be invested in my skills and a minimum of 10% of my time in developing new skills. I exceed that.
I wished I had known that this applied to the soft skills of my life.
Is this still a factor in your life?
I am working in a profession that is a good match for my skill set. Again I'm guessing your meaning more then just work, but life. I am not codependent like before BD and am doing GAL things now.
Codependency generally doesn't just disappear. So I am going to ask, what measures are you taking to invest in your skill sets, to get ourself excited by your life and work? What are the plans for you? How will you ensure that you put your development in these areas before all else?
Vanilla, I am happy to answer more questions if you have them. Thank you for helping me improve myself.
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I think I know how you got to the alcohol and codependency although I am not convinced that abstaining stimulated recovery, in essence one addiction was replaced by another, that isn't recovery. Giving up alcohol is a major achievement, quite outstanding in fact and shows you have enormous will and determination. That comes at a great price by doing and undertaking life situations and roles from obligation. There is a better way, reward by achieving, performing with enjoyment.
As yet I can't understand why it happened. The answer may lie further back, did you do school subjects you didn't like? Try to please parents, teachers rather than having best fit? If so why?
What dreams did you have for you when you were a child? What did you really want to do? Are your desires in your work or hobbies?
More questions!
V
Salutations from the world of mutatio.
Vanilla, I will answer your questions tomorrow afternoon. I think some of the answers will help you understand me better.
I think I have been feeling down yesterday and today.
I am beginning to lose hope. I just think my life has become a mess. I am working on myself to be the best person I can be, right? Maybe, just maybe, my wife will consider not divorcing me. This seems like more of a long shot each day. So I become this new and improved man who is divorced. After going through this experience I am reluctant to do it again. To open oneself up to this pain again seems reckless and foolish. This chapter of my life has taught me you can't trust people with your heart. People break vows and treat you as a worn out pair of shoes. This is all done for the sake of companionship, well the price is to high from where I'm sitting.
If you think this is about my wife, about a lack of detaching you are wrong. You build a life for what? To have it all torn down by some chameleon saboteur. I care for my wife, I love her(I don't know what this means anymore), right now as I type this I would take a bullet for her and what does it get me, the trash can, like a dirty diaper. I don't think I can ever trust anyone again.
Life seems so empty now. Love seems to be an illusion, a projection of one's feelings onto another, that's a dangerous game.
All in the name of companionship. If this is the case, it's a suckers game.
This is not a question of trusting my wife, it is a question of trusting "love". To put it all on the line for an emotional feeling. Seems more and more illogical to me.
I haven't given up on love but I am not trusting it right now.
I think I have been feeling down yesterday and today.
M - without question, you are down. We all have those times. The times pass, too. I'm glad you came here to vent.
I have to disagree with you about Love. I'm not sorry I feel it, even when it is not returned. It makes me a better, more compassionate person.
Think about your daughters. You love them with no expectations, right? So, love is a good thing. Expecting to get something in return...maybe not so much.
Hang in there. Life is good. The lessons sometimes are hard.
Thank you Judy. I was tired when I wrote that and I think the fatigue shaded the tone.
I am very disappointed in where my marriage is going.
mutatio, we all get tired and we all feel a little jaded from time to time, if you are feeling close to giving everything up, make sure it is not for one of the following reasons:
You are feeling hurt
You are feeling frustrated
You feel you are up against the wall
When you are feeling low concentrate on:
Making sure someone is in your corner - we all are, have you got someone you can speak to locally, if not is there someone who you could ask?
Taking a break, don't keep slugging away. Review your plan and goals, what's next...what needs to change...how successful are they, what do I need to do differently?
Being coached - whether that's a DB one or an IC
Hang in there, you aren't a quitter.
Avanti - formerly known as Beagley
When tired I too am less positive.It is tough slogging it out in a seemingly endless unwinable fight.
I too fear how I will look at any future R. But I know that I want a future R. I want to feel affection, feel loved and treat someone with what I have learned about R in this process. I want to love and to be loved.if I can save my family I will do so too. If not I will be best dad I can.
Take care of you today.
Take some time out. I was frustrated a few weeks ago. Ready to give up. Back now. Still exhausted, but a break from the forum just gives some space as well.
Avanti thank you for responding. You have got me thinking. I think this could be a good time to reassess.
Roiste your support makes me feel better. It is comforting to have dialog with people in similar situations.
Huddy thanks, I think I need a tune up. This emotional roller coaster can were you down from time to time.
I am going to digest my situation this afternoon and review my options. I'll be back.
Avanti - formerly known as Beagley, is this one of those Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner things?
I am only joking around and I do respect people with transgender issues. Their lives may be in better shape then my own.
I was thinking more along the lines of the artist formerly known as Prince lines, but you Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner thing is fine too. ;-)
Actually it was inspired by Vanilla who suggested that Beagley had grown up and perhaps needed to cast off some previous vestiges and take decisive steps forward towards completing a transformation.
You sound as if you need to take some time to reassess and regroup, good luck with it and you know you've got loads of people happy to help out if you comes across any sticking points.
More answers for Vanilla"s questions. Read if you struggle with insomnia.
Were you trying to compete with FIL?
I wanted to prove to wife I was as good as her father. I wanted to prove to my FIL I was worthy of his daughter.
Where did the image of a man come from?
My image came from me. My father was not a man I respected. I thought I should be the stoic hero type from a hollywood movie.
Do you see a distinction between men and women in the workplace? In the home?
I see no distinction men and women in the workplace or in the home.
OK, so when you say much happier are you still sacrificing your potential for expediency?
I am need to work to support my family. I am working towards a pension. I enjoy what I do. This is all good.
Did this create resentment which leaked into your home life?
I brought resentments home with my FIL salesman job. I have no resentments with my current job.
To what extent are you now unable to find the time to develop your skills?
I am improving my skills at work an in classes in the evening.
what measures are you taking to invest in your skill sets, to get yourself excited by your life and work?
I am improving my skill set so that when I retire I can start a new career with my own business.
What are the plans for you?
I plan to move to an different area of the country and work as an artist.
How will you ensure that you put your development in these areas before all else?
I am passionate about my interests and prefer doing them over almost everything.
The answer may lie further back, did you do school subjects you didn't like? Try to please parents, teachers rather than having best fit? If so why?
I did not reach my full academic potential because my father pushed school hard and I pulled back and did not apply myself to my studies. I pleased myself by not giving my father the grades he wanted me to get.
What dreams did you have for you when you were a child?
I wanted to have money. My father was a civil servant so we were not wealthy.
What did you really want to do?
I wanted to be an architect, I like to design.
Are your desires in your work or hobbies?
My work and my hobbies are one in the same, just different mediums.
More answers for Vanilla"s questions. Read if you struggle with insomnia.
mutatio, quit making this kind of comment. We all learn from one another's sitch's and the responses they get, you shouldn't be the judge of whether something is important to others or not. If you were going for the self-deprecation angle, find other ways or other places within your post, not your opening line.
The reason for saying this is it hints at a lack of inner self-confidence, if you feel that, start faking confidence and it will start to happen on its own. Fake it till you make is now a scientifically proven psychological approach.
You are right Avanti, I will refrain from such commentary.
Hello, I am just bumping this thread back up to the top in hopes that Vanilla will notice that I answered the additional questions.
Vanilla, I would appreciate if you could let me know that you are aware of the answers.
Thank you again for your compassion and kindness towards me.
Yes my lovely I did. I will respond.
Unfortunately my iPad updated and failed and until I visit the apple shop l am stuck with being unable to write long posts and quotes
My responses are from my iPhone so much shorter, the screen is so insy.
Some may say a good thing!!
I also owe Fogg a post and Photo my prayer and affirmations list. Shouts loudly, it is in the making.
V
No rush V, just wanted you to know. I appreciate your help.
We went out to our friends house for a diner party last night. She said one or two things in the car. I answered but did not try to have any extended dialog.
Should I make conversation with her in the car or let her start conversations?
My worry is that my silence means that the relationship is done. I don't want her to think I have given up on us. If the silence is not having her reach that conclusion then I can accept it.
Which is it?
We don't talk so I don't know where we are. Should I ask?
I don't know how things got the way they are, please respond.
If she's initiating the conversation there's nothing wrong with having it with her, just don't be the one to always initiate it. Thinking she's given up is one of our irrational fears and causes us to want to pursue, you know that doesn't work already. It's just the fear working in your mind and wanting to control fix things.
If you think your silence is being moody and down then you need to perk up and be happier. Remember the rules, you want to have a good PMA. I know it's a struggle and I find myself being more silent and removed from any emotions at times also. Just don't always be like this.
Thank you Fogg. Your right, I think my problem the last week has been with my PMA. I am managing the relationship in an acceptable manner but my PMA is low. My short term goals will be to maintain an higher PMA. Thank you again Fogg for your kindness and wisdom.
Any suggestions on gaining and maintaining a PMA?
How would I create goals that maintain a PMA?
...How would I create goals that maintain a PMA?...
PMA comes from what you do and think.
Some suggestions would be:
Set yourself a goal to read books to learn from. Not just books about PMA, books about things that interest you or cover a topic you've thought about before but never really investigated before.
Set yourself a goal to recognise when you are thinking about dark things and gently guide yourself toward better thoughts.
Set yourself a goal to engage with others on a regular basis, doing something you enjoy so you find yourself forgetting all about your sitch. Because those people will be doing something they enjoy, typically they will be very positive and this will rub off on you.
Set yourself a goal to act as-if you have a pma, fake it, till you make it.
Mutatio
Chat about admin not R, real neutral stuff, how to cook a steak, the weather in Outer Mongolia, whether you need petrol, air in the tyres, the great novel you read. Collecting stamps or minions.
Like a friendly neighbour, humour, soft voice. Chitter chatter, music.
I say breakfast at Tiffanys, not dinner at Marcos with wine and violins.
As for PMA, music, GAL, exercise, sleep and great food. Meditation, sunshine, breathing and smiles. Plus hugs with the kids, lots and lots and lots.
V
Thank you Avanti and Vanilla. Your suggestions helped me this weekend. Not much to report since the rest of the family's sick and I worked in the garage to not catch it. Be well
Any suggestions on gaining and maintaining a PMA?
How would I create goals that maintain a PMA?
For me, PMA comes from several places -
1) Ive been dressing better, smelling better, sleeping better. This all helps me wake up and feel good about myself. Starting the day on a positive note is so important, I think.
2) GAL! Hanging out with people that like me doing things I like? What could be better than that?
3) Have you watched the TED talks by Amy Cuddy and Shawn Achor? Two great ways to help you
develop your PMA. Its not something that happens by accident.
Find that inner source of happiness. And the PMA will flow.
Mutatio, I am having the same problem. How to make small talk with someone who hates me. The other day H came to me, very excited and asked me if I knew what the busiest airport was. I guess he is having the same problem as I am and looking up trivia to pass off as small talk? I find a lot to say about the kids, my S9 especially says the funniest things. Also H has recently deactivated his FaceBook account so I will tell him what he is missing on Face Book. Although I know what he is really missing on FB is the chats he had with OW.
Mostly I've been just avoiding him, and talking to friends online, so much easier to talk to someone who responds.
As far as PMA goes, music is getting me through. I am going to concerts lately, either a "real" concert or I find a live singer or band in a local restaurant or bar and just take in some live music for an hour or two. Come home and sing along to youtube videos. Drinking lots of wine helps too. Talking to you and the other DB'ers.
.. the rest of the family's sick and I worked in the garage to not catch it...
So DB'ing stood for Disease Busting this weekend. :-)
Have you written down any goals? Not prying to find out what they are simply to find out what action you took.
More answers for Vanilla"s questions. Read if you struggle with insomnia.
Were you trying to compete with FIL?
I wanted to prove to wife I was as good as her father. I wanted to prove to my FIL I was worthy of his daughter.
So, this wasn't for yourself, or to satisfy your life needs, but to meet your WW objectives and to be worthy in FILs eyes. Do you consider that in light of later responses you respected FIL as a father figure in your life? That he symbolised an ideal for you and that pleasing him satisfied that desire?
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Where did the image of a man come from?
My image came from me. My father was not a man I respected. I thought I should be the stoic hero type from a hollywood movie.
This is a wonderful insight, which super hero or combination would you like to be? Which superhero powers did you want then? Which would you like to be now? I believe this represents your idealised self, and would be very useful to know. Very useful indeed.
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Do you see a distinction between men and women in the workplace? In the home?
I see no distinction men and women in the workplace or in the home.
This is also very important, very important because there are fewer barriers in your parenting. Fantastic position to work from.
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OK, so when you say much happier are you still sacrificing your potential for expediency?
I am need to work to support my family. I am working towards a pension. I enjoy what I do. This is all good.
Security is important to you, more important than your role? Would you ever round hole square peg for security? That is a trade off you would be prepared to accept?
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Did this create resentment which leaked into your home life?
I brought resentments home with my FIL salesman job. I have no resentments with my current job.
This doesn't seem to fit, and I am confused. There seems to be spillage unless that was hangover resentment.
-------------------------------------------------
To what extent are you now unable to find the time to develop your skills?
I am improving my skills at work an in classes in the evening.
This indicates to me that there was enormous growth and learning from your experience with working with FIL. That when presented with a sitch, if it isn't working for you that you can turn it around. The techniques are clearly there and the insights in your work life to develop new strategies. An important skill set to have.
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what measures are you taking to invest in your skill sets, to get yourself excited by your life and work?
I am improving my skill set so that when I retire I can start a new career with my own business.
That is a complete life plan. Can I ask if you live in your dreams, in the future, rather than the now? How flexible are your plans? This is something I understand as I am doing the same. I see myself with a role until I am 80, although now I am beginning to look to enjoying today.
----------------------------------------------
What are the plans for you?
I plan to move to an different area of the country and work as an artist.
So why do you need to move? How will this affect your family?
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How will you ensure that you put your development in these areas before all else?
I am passionate about my interests and prefer doing them over almost everything.
Is there any way you can share this enthusiasm?
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The answer may lie further back, did you do school subjects you didn't like? Try to please parents, teachers rather than having best fit? If so why?
I did not reach my full academic potential because my father pushed school hard and I pulled back and did not apply myself to my studies. I pleased myself by not giving my father the grades he wanted me to get.
You self sabotaged? As a child or teenager, was a perversity or a rebellion? This is a odd combo, rebellion against dad but pleasing strategy for FIL. Is this a pattern for you, pleasing some, and not others? If so how do you make the distinction?
-------------------------------------------
What dreams did you have for you when you were a child?
I wanted to have money. My father was a civil servant so we were not wealthy.
I confess again to confusion, one of your cores seems to be security, civil service with its pensions seems secure. In essence isn't this more secure than FIL who lost his business? Did you lose respect for FIL when this happened?
--------------------------------------------------
What did you really want to do?
I wanted to be an architect, I like to design.
I like that you know this, very much. How much effort goes into this?
-----------------------------------------------
Are your desires in your work or hobbies?
My work and my hobbies are one in the same, just different mediums.
This is wonderful, are you including your family in any way sharing your enthusiasm?
V
Apologies lost my wifi again and the rest of the post didn't post! The last bit should have read:
This is wonderful, are you including your family in any way sharing your enthusiasm? I am asking this because I see this an obvious source of PMA, a useful 180. So knowing that which excites you would be a useful PMA source. A little imagination and invention could create some interesting opportunities. In what way could we find PMA opportunities in it? My aged Pa was an engineer, I loved working on the car with him, decorating, repairing etc. It was his enthusiasm (not mine) but I really loved from being tiny learning and growing with Aged Pa. My gran loved cooking, I learned chopping, frying, salads etc from her, my love of great food comes from her. A close friend took photos with her dad etc. My sense is that this is going to be the source of some great PMA.
V
I like you Vanilla, you make me feel good after reading you posts. I will answer your new questions most probably Thursday. I think my answers will interest you. Thank you for taking time out of your life to show me some kindness and compassion.
Azzork, Photoka and Avanti, I am thinking about my goals and will bounce them off you in a day or two.
Tomorrow will be a very busy day.
I went to my IC yesterday. She thinks that intellectually I am managing my relationship with my wife well. My hat is off to all of you for this. She went on to say that emotionally I am deeply hurt by all the things my wife has said and done these last few years. I have to agree with her. Between the hurt she has inflicted and the isolation of the silent treatment, I feel great sorrow.
I was really sad before and was going to post about it. Before writing, I posted on some other threads and began to empathize with all of you and your situations. I believe that by helping other LBS's you can help heal yourself. I still feel sad but not alone. I have all of you and this makes it bearable.Thanks for your support.
What is my wife thinking?
Yesterday I hear my wife talking to my daughter in the kitchen. Having a happy conversation about what my wife's day was like at work. I walk into the kitchen and she stops talking. She goes silent. I drink my water and leave. She then starts talking again.
When did I become the enemy?
Today I walk in on my son and daughter resolving a dispute with my wife's help. I drink a glass of water, sit and listen. After its resolved I ask my daughter a question to clarify part of what I heard. My wife gets up and leaves. It seems she can't even be in the same room with me.
When did I become the enemy?
I respect her boundaries.
I do not pursue her.
I have become a better man/father.
When did I become the enemy?
Mutatio, you are reading WW mind. How do you know she didn't urgently need to make a call? X go to the loo? Make her escape because she is uncomfortable. I see no malicious intent in her requirement for privacy. She has sacked you as her H, that isn't making you the enemy. If you keep pushing and pushing, critiquing non verbally or puppy dogging you will make yourself an annoying bee that is chasing her.
Her silence seems to be mainly the need for privacy as she sees you perusing, she will run. It will have to do with her feelings not yours.
Let her handle the issues with your children when she is doing such a great job and even if in your eyes she isn't, sounds like she was doing well anyway. If you need to ask or clarify, later on would be better, although personally I would just nod in agreement. I think I would feel if I were mom you were interfering too, be tempted to say " I got this" "don't undermine me". Heck I would leave rather than be sarky to you in front of the kids too. That shows self restraint and a need for peace.
A different way might be to observe then later validate "I like the way you handled xyz sitch today"
You are chasing her away. And remember beliefs such as " she thinks I am the enemy" are self fulfilling pink elephants. Do you want to be the enemy? Thought not! 180 needed in my view.
Just my 2c
V
Mutatio, you are reading WW mind. How do you know she didn't urgently need to make a call? X go to the loo? Make her escape because she is uncomfortable. I see no malicious intent in her requirement for privacy. She has sacked you as her H, that isn't making you the enemy. If you keep pushing and pushing, critiquing non verbally or puppy dogging you will make yourself an annoying bee that is chasing her.
Her silence seems to be mainly the need for privacy as she sees you perusing, she will run. It will have to do with her feelings not yours.
Let her handle the issues with your children when she is doing such a great job and even if in your eyes she isn't, sounds like she was doing well anyway. If you need to ask or clarify, later on would be better, although personally I would just nod in agreement. I think I would feel if I were mom you were interfering too, be tempted to say " I got this" "don't undermine me". Heck I would leave rather than be sarky to you in front of the kids too. That shows self restraint and a need for peace.
A different way might be to observe then later validate "I like the way you handled xyz sitch today"
You are chasing her away. And remember beliefs such as " she thinks I am the enemy" are self fulfilling pink elephants. Do you want to be the enemy? Thought not! 180 needed in my view.
Just my 2c
V
^^^^Cosigning V. ^^^^
Thank you V and V. I am surprised, I did not see that. It seems so obvious to me now. I will be on guard for that behavior in the future. Thank you again.
Mutatio, I was about to agree with you, and empathize about the silent treatment and then I read V's post. I have some examples in my sitch that mirror yours exactly. And V's take on it does shed new light on the dynamics.
Thank you Mutatio and V.
Here are the answers to your questions Vanilla.
Do you consider that in light of later responses you respected FIL as a father figure in your life?
Yes I do, he is one of the wisest men I know.
That he symbolised an ideal for you and that pleasing him satisfied that desire?
Yes it did.
This is a wonderful insight, which super hero or combination would you like to be?
I would like to be a combination of Kwai Chang Caine (Kung Fu) and John Wayne.
Which superhero powers did you want then?
A wise strong leader.
Which would you like to be now?
A wise content man.
Security is important to you, more important than your role?
Security is more important then my role. If you mean role is type of job.
Would you ever round hole square peg for security?
If you mean compromise on role for security. Not until I get my pension in 3-7 years.
That is a trade off you would be prepared to accept?
My pension is my employment goal. I will improve my skills for my work life after pension.
Can I ask if you live in your dreams, in the future, rather than the now?
I live for the future.
How flexible are your plans?
If you mean plans for the future then somewhat flexible.
I plan to move to an different area of the country and work as an artist.
So why do you need to move?
Cost of living, preferred weather conditions, scenic beauty.
How will this affect your family?
My wife may or may not be my wife so unclear.
My eldest daughter is graduated from college.
My other daughter will graduate college by then.
My son the youngest will be in college.
I will miss them and try to have them move near me.
I would try to start a new life, clean slate, a little scary though.
I am passionate about my interests and prefer doing them over almost everything.
Is there any way you can share this enthusiasm?
I try to share my interest with my daughter and my son. We recently went to a sculpture garden. My wife even came with. That was nice.
I did not reach my full academic potential because my father pushed school hard and I pulled back and did not apply myself to my studies. I pleased myself by not giving my father the grades he wanted me to get.
You self sabotaged?
Yes
As a child or teenager, was a perversity or a rebellion?
As a child, it was rebellion.
This is a odd combo, rebellion against dad but pleasing strategy for FIL. Is this a pattern for you, pleasing some, and not others?
Not a pattern.
If so how do you make the distinction?
My father emotional abused my mother. I watched him hit her once. He bullied me. I have no respect for my father. My FIL is a gentleman, a leader, a mensch.
I wanted to have money. My father was a civil servant so we were not wealthy.
I confess again to confusion, one of your cores seems to be security, civil service with its pensions seems secure. In essence isn't this more secure than FIL who lost his business?
I saw my father and our family struggle with money over the years. I wanted to go into business and make more money. When I got married I took the job with my FIL to make more money. It was a less secure situation but I was drawn to the money.
Did you lose respect for FIL when this happened?
My FIL had retired and his brother was in charge. The brother was in a horrible car crash where his daughter died and he nearly did. He came back to the business but was not the same after that. The other thing that killed the business was 9/11.
I wanted to be an architect, I like to design.
I like that you know this, very much. How much effort goes into this?
I love design, I love finding solutions to problems. I do this at work and at home in my spare time. I do this when I day dream.
My work and my hobbies are one in the same, just different mediums.
This is wonderful, are you including your family in any way sharing your enthusiasm?
They do not have my interests although I feel my eldest would like to do things with me.
This is wonderful, are you including your family in any way sharing your enthusiasm?
I try to go to museums or art exhibitions involving art or sculpture. Scheduling makes things difficult.
In what way could we find PMA opportunities in it?
I think you are on to something here. I will give this some thought. This could be very good for me and my children. It may help me live in the here and now.
Thank you Vanilla for your compassion and willingness to help me.
Hello Mutatio,
I may have left the room if my H did that as well. I would have felt angry, even though you were trying to do the right thing. I want help with the kids, but I do not need help in something I have under control. If you want to get involved there are a million other things the kids need.
I would have also been angry that you stepped in when you did not have all the facts.
I know you were asking questions to get more facts, and I am not saying this is logical, but I do not think it would have mattered what question you asked. Because this issue could be somehow connected to past issues, and unless you have all the facts from all the past issues, she might feel that you should not step into what your W might think is the middle of an issue.
There is only one exception I can think of. Except when your sentence begins with "Your mother is absolutely right..."
In the past, I might have appreciated it if my H stepped in and tried to get more info, but when things are strained, it could feel like you are double checking her advice to see if you think it is right.
I may be wrong, but as a W and mom, stepping in on a bunch of little issues would go a long way in making me feel better. Things that might not seem important. For example, everyday ask your S or D what they had for lunch. Even if you think you know the answer, just ask. Next week, if W is going to the store, ask her to buy whatever your S or D ate the most of. It shows you really paid attention all week, and you are already thinking about what they need next week.
I know when you worked for FIL you put in many hours. She may be feeling that she has handled this fine all this time. But I bet she also feels alone in the small things. She would feel more like a parenting team if someone else knew that the purple sweater is the favorite, and they want to wear it on Saturday, so it must be clean, etc...
I am not saying you did anything wrong at all. Asking questions and talking to them to get more information is wonderful! Please dont think I am bashing you in the slightest. I'm just trying to show you what it might have looked like in her eyes. She may not even know why she was mad or realize what you were trying to do.
You are trying so hard, and getting little reward, and I know how tough it is. Sorry if I rambled too long on your thread. Have a good weekend!
That's awesome advice Mona52. You sound like someone who is very accomplished in DB'ing and I'm looking forward to catching up on your sitch. Can't get my head around the registered at the beginning of 2012 but only 17 posts, hopefully your thread will clarify why that is the case.
You are trying so hard, and getting little reward,
Yep.
Don't work HARDER. Work SMARTER.
Mona, thank you for your insight. I appreciate your opinion. I will be conscious of that type of behavior and stop it. Your suggestion to be more attentive to family and household needs is brilliant. Thank you and please stop by again. I need more friends like you.
Avanti, thanks for stopping by I welcome your support.
Azzork, outstanding advice in only five words, thank you.
I am not sure whats happening to me but I am less driven, compelled, focused on my wife every second.
It's not like I don't care, I do.
It's not like I'm not interested, I am.
It's not that I've given up hope,I haven't.
It's that I am just tired of actively waiting for her to change her behavior.
I am thinking about what I want to do this weekend. What I want to accomplish. I am done trying to effect change in my wife's mind.
I think I have evolved.
You sound like a man who is turning a corner mutatio, keep on doing what you are doing, thinking like you are thinking and a new vista will soon appear.
That is great to hear! Don't be surprised if tomorrow you feel like you have taken 3 steps back and your world revolves around her again. It is not a straight line of evolution, but it is evolution non the less! Just remember, days like this will come more frequently if you work on it. Good job!
That is great to hear! Don't be surprised if tomorrow you feel like you have taken 3 steps back and your world revolves around her again. It is not a straight line of evolution, but it is evolution non the less! Just remember, days like this will come more frequently if you work on it. Good job!
Ain't that the truth! Great advice, Mona.
Mona, thank you for your insight. I appreciate your opinion. I will be conscious of that type of behavior and stop it. Your suggestion to be more attentive to family and household needs is brilliant. Thank you and please stop by again. I need more friends like you.
Avanti, thanks for stopping by I welcome your support.
Azzork, outstanding advice in only five words, thank you.
I am not sure whats happening to me but I am less driven, compelled, focused on my wife every second.
It's not like I don't care, I do.
It's not like I'm not interested, I am.
It's not that I've given up hope,I haven't.
It's that I am just tired of actively waiting for her to change her behavior.
I am thinking about what I want to do this weekend. What I want to accomplish. I am done trying to effect change in my wife's mind.
I think I have evolved.
Good, good, good!
And, wow. You're getting great advice.
Thinking of you...have a good weekend.
lost08
In my short time here I observe shift.
Shift happens almost instantaneously, once there is knowledge one can never unknow. Commonly referred to as light bulb moments.
This is major shift, the big leap stuff that moves us to the next Kubler Ross stage (or back) as needed.
Sometimes I observe enormous struggle and resistance but then that pull of the higher power comes and great shift occurs. Often with internal evaluation and thought process. It's sometimes enough to make the story and become authentic.
Let us recap.
You have significant childhood disruption, I think I counted at least 6 ACES (adverse childhood experiences), we have then a four stage recovery ending with you and W separating.
A substitute father figure in FIL, who seems to have done a terrific job all around.
The inheritance of this is your absolute need for assurance and security before you are able to take any risk. It would seem from your observation that once you are score then you will follow your dreams.
Nothing so far seems to be untoward. Dreams are sometimes intended to be only dreams.
So I have a couple of reservations about those around you. Primarily giving up alcohol and without a development program or 12 step to address the pathway to addiction and redress.
I encourage you to heal from the physiology up, and after this to explore the addiction (alcohol) and its effects and to atone completely to all including yourself.
It has cost you not to have been in a recovery program, I think you appeased rather than atoned. My sense is this is where damage lies.
Addiction is a very selfish act, it needs repair. When you follow your dream as you must, absolutely you must, without repair this too may be seen as a selfish act. Keeping your bridges intact will disenfranchise you from your children and in laws.
There is much work to be done, with each child and family member to ascertain an individual link and to make ready.
What do you think would be best with each child (yes, I know adults!) but still your children.
Tell me about each one and the effects of this on them.
You can say, nose out V, it's ok.
V
Good luck Mutatio, once Vanilla gets ahold of you she makes you do some serious thinking. She knows her stuff!
(I am still working through the resources you referred me too Vanilla, not ignoring you.)
Thank you all for your support. It feels good to have friends that care.
Vanilla I will respond soon, just not tonight.
I am working on my goals which I will also share later.
Well I finished everything I needed to do this weekend. It's been quiet around here. I am going to turn in now, be well.
Glad your weekend was productive.
All the best
Hi my friend,
Passing by showing you love and support. You sound to be hitting a good stage in this journey. It makes me very happy to hear.
Don't have much to add, as everyone here is giving you amazing and deep advice. Keep up the good fight.
God Bless
Roiste and EM thanks for the support. In this stage of my evolution I just got tired of waiting for her to change her behavior.
Sure I get sad, feel lonely but I am a multi function tool. I can feel those emotions and go on with my life. If I can help it I will not dwell in despair.
I'm going to bed I've got a lot of life to eat tomorrow. Be well
Sending you strength Mutatio, tomorrow is a brand new day filled with endless possibilities.
PP
Roiste and EM thanks for the support. In this stage of my evolution I just got tired of waiting for her to change her behavior.
Sure I get sad, feel lonely but I am a multi function tool. I can feel those emotions and go on with my life. If I can help it I will not dwell in despair.
I'm going to bed I've got a lot of life to eat tomorrow. Be well
My DB Coach reminded me to focus on how good I was DBing and not on how W reacts or acts, as you get sucked in to interpreting their behavior too much. For instance, you being different and attractive and not doing what they expect leads to provocation on their part. They want you to play the role they've assigned you, want you to be the one they can blame for the D, and get angry and scared that they are drawn in by you, doubt they can trust you, etc. The point is that you just won't know if there is progress until much later.
In group therapy there are general stages, and they fit with couples to some extent. One of the earlier stages is called "Storming." This looks like conflict, but it is also a stage of feeling each other out, testing to see if you care and are trustworthy enough to allow oneself to take a risk and become vulnerable, and to establish the place in the relationship. It is critical to listen, validate, and respond constructively rather than react. What is important is to recognize that what looks like conflict and tension can actually be a sign of progress. You just won't know until later.
Hence the advice my DB coach had about keep my focus on who good a job I'm doing DBing and allow my W to work out her own sh*t through the interpersonal connection.
When you should get really concerned is if you aren't getting any reaction - that signals they have moved on. Anger, esp. when it is over something an objective observer would judge as positive, means they are still not done w/ you. Warning you off can be the same kind of thing. I'm scared because you are acting in a way that I like.
So, multi-task away. Live your life, keep DBing, and let your W do what she is going to do for the time being without getting yourself too stirred up about judging what that says about your R possibilities.
Wow, thanks for sharing this info! This is truly interesting and helpful.
Mutatio, I was just dropping in to say hello! I stumbled on to the gem from Asitis while here. Pretty sure I needed to read that.
I hope all is going well.
That is a very useful piece. Cut it out and laminate!
Thank you all for your support, it buoys me.
Asitis said:
"When you should get really concerned is if you aren't getting any reaction - that signals they have moved on."
Could you expand on this Asitis or anyone else. My wife gives me no emotion. Does that mean it's over, done deal, I'm finished?
I think he means, does she still yell at you and give you grief when you say things to her? Does she act defensive when you pull away or is she angry? These would be signs there is still fire in there.
I do not get any emotion. She says that she is indifferent to me. I interact with her on household business only. She does not share anything about her life with me. She will not watch television with me. Where I had her in my life emotionally I now have a void.
Have other people resurrected their marriages from situations like this?
Mutatio,
I am not sure what to say. I have read that indifference is not good. Look in the DR book and see if there is anything in there on dealing with this.
There is never a point at which things are not possible. Yes, they can be harder to work through, but not impossible. If I find anything in the book I will let you know.
mutatio, don't take one small, potentially unintentionally badly worded, section of a sentence and read so much into it. Be aware that we are all susceptible to confirmation bias, in other words we unconsciously seek out facts, under the guise of research, to confirm a supposition we've made already.
What you wife says and feels are two very different things. You aren't that far into your journey and Sandi2's rules still firmly apply, in this case, including don't believe anything she says and only 50% of what she does, that 50% being anything positive.
One thing I also want to mention is the cheeseless tunnel concept that Michele writes about. I am guessing you are familiar with this but as a reminder...if what you are doing is not working, try something different. Give it a week or two and check for results. If the results are negative or you see not change, try something different.
Just be sure to give it enough time to work. You will not always see immediate results. Read page 146 in the DR book.
Mutatio -
I dont think your wife is indifferent at all. If she is immediately leaving the room when you walk in or giving you the silent treatment, thats not indifference. Indifference to me would be having generally moderately mediocre interactions. General pleasantries, mild conversation about the weather, not cold, but not warm.
Basically, the way we are trying to act towards our spouses!
Have you ever seen any DBer get advice suggesting to do what your W is currently doing?
Yes. This would have basically been my answer to you if Az hadn't beaten me to it.
I'd add that your M may be done, just like mine may be. We don't know yet, but that is one very real possibility. Even if it is, DBing allows you to get out with your dignity and a whole new skill set, it helps the post-D R, and is just a good way to treat someone you love - that isn't about what we receive if it is real love.
I know that last bit is hard to swallow, but the reality is what it is and you've read enough people's threads here to know that. I don't think you ever stop holding out a tiny bit of hope, even after a D (after all 10% of D'ed couples remarry each other). Still, when you can lean into that uncomfortable, painful reality a bit more and have it not leave you distraught, it is a lot easier to DB effectively, including taking care of the life you have been putting on hold rather than living. And, don't go beating yourself up that you aren't there yet. We've all been there, and it is normal. It is a process, and you just have to let it unfold like the rest of us.
All that said, I don't really see that much indifference from your W. There is still anger if she doesn't want to share room with you.
Mutatio, you know my H gives me the silent treatment too, but underneath that silence is a simmering anger that I manage to trigger every couple of weeks. So what may seem like indifference, could actually be anger or even rage if that makes you feel better! I am sure if you really wanted to find out that you could trigger her and see what happens.
As, I never heard that 10% of D'd couples remarry each other. That is a good statistic.
WhyUs thank you for the support and the suggestions. I will look at the book tonight. Your suggestion about changing things up is good. I will think about that and modify my behavior.
Avanti my friend, thank you for that thought. It made my realize what I had done.
Azzork your wisdom is profound. Thank you for guiding me on this path.
Asitis thank you for both those posts. The first was so insightful and the second so supportful.
I can't thank you enough my friends for your kindness and compassion during this chapter of my life.
I used to want to know how this chapter will end.
Now I want to live each and every day trying to reach my fullest potential.
What happens later on down the road is of no consequence now.
I reside in a quiet world. Not much is happening at home. I fully and completely accept my situation. For the most part, I am at peace with the possibility of my wife choosing divorce. I will be sad and disappointed if that is her choice but that is not her choice today.
I chose to reside in the here and now. I truly am becoming a better man.
I feel joy when I think how I have and will grow through this experience.
Good morning, my friend!
I love going back and reading your post on my thread of how you love mornings and the possibilities they hold. I sat looking out over the water of the bay this morning, watching the gulls, watching the morning unfold. I basked in the beauty of nature for a moment. A gift indeed!
I also took a moment late last night to walk to the beach, lie on the sand and look at the stars. Listening to the waves crash. Closing my eyes and praying to the Lord, just one small human in this vast world.
I haven't felt joy yet, but the sparks are there. To hear you feel joy is so uplifting.
It is evident in your writings you are growing and changing and becoming a better version of You! I am celebrating this with you and for you!
May today be full of endless gifts and opportunities to see the beauty which surrounds you.
xoxo
You are doing great focusing on the present and to enjoy it.
Your strength to deal with your situation is inspiring.
How did you get on with thinking of something newto try as suggested a few posts back?
Enjoy your day
I reside in a quiet world. Not much is happening at home. I fully and completely accept my situation. For the most part, I am at peace with the possibility of my wife choosing divorce. I will be sad and disappointed if that is her choice but that is not her choice today.
I chose to reside in the here and now. I truly am becoming a better man.
I feel joy when I think how I have and will grow through this experience.
If I am not mistaken that is detachment. The dynamic of everything will change at some point and you will be ready and prepared for whatever it is.
You say "things are quiet at home" that's a result of you and your behavior, it's probably similar to what has been in the past, it's how you react that's changed and things don't get so messed up as they once did.
You now realise you are in the driving seat for where your M and R with your W end up, use that control wisely and maintain the focus on you, a bit of sitting back and just letting things be for a while, probably makes sense. Doing nothing is a choice.
Avanti thank you for these thoughts. I am improving myself with constant adjustments in attitude. My current struggle is the same as Photokas. Asitis addressed it perfectly on her thread today.
Roiste thank you for your support. As you know, in a difficult moment it's uplifting to get support from a friend, thanks. I have been so busy at work that I have not been able to give the new ideas much thought. I hope to finish the current deadline this weekend. Then I have some breathing room. The new ideas are important to me.
Vanilla, I have not forgot about you and the next round.
I posted a quote I found while reading on Photokas old thread. It has helped me the last few weeks and I would like to share it with all of you.
"Life is change. Growth is optional. Choose wisely."
Such a great quote you ended with Mutatio. It's so true. The law of impermanence tells us that all relationships will come to an end at some point either by separation or death. It's a law of nature.
How we deal with all of that is the true measure of our lives and for those of us on this board, we are still choosing to fight for our marriages, even if the choice to do so has to remain relatively silent.
I admire the courage and steadfastness you are bringing to your situation, there's a wisdom in your words and actions that will live on far beyond the dramatization of this transitional phase.
Sending you strength my friend,
PP
Hello mutatio,
Sounds like you are moving in the right direction. Keep up the good work. Focus on your goals and post your work on them every day.
(((hugs)))
Hi Mutatio,
Passing by and giving you my support. I am happy to see you are in such a good place. Being calm, and at peace in this situation is key, it will allow you to make rational decisions, and be able to accept whatever comes with this.
I am continuing to pray for you and your family.
Hello, Mutatio! Dropping in to check on you...
Love the quote!
Hi everyone, it's a quiet evening at home. Not much to report. I hope to get a lot done this weekend. My son wanted me to play video games with him after dinner. I said yes even though I am terrible at it and have no interest in it. He was really happy. I am glad we shared the moment. I think I will offer to do it again with him when ever he wants. Soon he will be to old to hang with the old man.
I would not have chosen this path but if I have to travel it, I will enjoy myself.
PigPen, I really like you, even if your not named Ron "Pigpen" McKernan
Mona, thanks for posting, your opinion matters to me.
EM, thanks for stopping by, I can use all the help I can get.
Ancaire, glad your here, that quote spoke to me when I read it.
Thank you all for your kindness.
Please start a new thread.