Time already for another thread. Here are links for:
as_it_is - my adventure continues (part 1) as_it_is - my adventure continues (part 2)and
as_it_is - my adventure continues (part 3)First, a brief summary of some of the most recent developments (there is a recap of my sitch in the first part of part 3, so go there if you want more background):
W & I separated in early February, and she asked for a D in mid April of this year. She was very, very angry for a while, but that seems to have dissipated in the past month or so. There even seemed to be some signs that she was starting to think about us in ways that suggested the D wasn't as certain in her mind. However, she has consistently maintained since April that she is sure she wants the D.
A bit over a week ago, she indicated that she wanted to start pushing ahead on the legal front so that we could D after the end of this academic year (we both teach college, I am also in a M.A. in Mental Health Counseling program, and we have one S in elementary school & one in daycare). I had tried to locate a mediator with mental health training in our area, because we both wanted to go that route. There are none. So, I handed over the only suggestions from the people I asked and left the ball in her court. As of Monday, that sheet was still conspicuously laying on her office desk when I dropped S6 (who doesn't start school until next Monday off). I was a bit irritated to see it lying out where anyone could see, but didn't say anything.
I have a DB coach who has worked w/ me since May, and thought there were signs of progress. She wanted me to start planting seeds for the friendship phase, which entailed some activities that I felt were a bit like pursuit (inviting W out occasionally when I did something w/ kids), and they kept my focus on W a bit too much. Not that this was DB coach's intentions, but the combination of her advise and the apparent signs that things might be changing left me paying way too much attention to my W and our R.
Some of those things were her volunteering that she was reading a M book that I had really liked & recommended over a year ago when I didn't know not to do this. She also said we about things regarding the house and maintaining it together that seemed to be things we wouldn't be doing if we were selling the house as she has wanted in the Spring. Combined w/ the lessening of her anger and seeming interest in chatting during our trading off location & kids, left me holding out too much hope and giving her too much attention for either of our goods.
So, I have my next DB coach session tomorrow. Very interested what she makes of the developments in the past 10 days or so, and how that might alter her advice.
My focus has been to redirect to moving much more aggressively forward on getting on w/ my life wo/ my W. We've sort of been in limbo on furnishing the apartment we share (she & I rotate between our house & the apartment to keep the kids in the stability of living in their house) because it was initially meant to be a short term experiment in S.
I spend more time in the apartment because of scheduling. If we D, we will need to purchase some duplicates of things we have now. Some things of ours are obviously things that she will most likely keep & I have to replace, and some the other way around. And, one of the things I want to be able to do when I'm in the apartment is to have friends or people I'd like to become friends over. I went ahead and purchases a 4 place setting, some flatware, wine glasses, and regular glasses. I will ask W to get a set of pots & pans so I can bring the other one over here. I still need place mats & napkins.
W doesn't know yet that I've done this. But I'm signalling that I have accepted her decision and am moving on w/ or wo/ her. I'm tired of focusing so much on her and am ready to go ahead. If that changes the dynamic between us & she reconsiders, it will be much cheaper than what the D will cost, so I'm just plunging ahead.
I still feel baffled at times as to why she is making her choice, as the explanations she has given don't provide enough info to really understand. But I accept that this has been consistently the way she feels, and she may truly have decided that she is not coming back to the M no matter what. She has said that she doesn't see any reconciliation as a possibility for the foreseeable future, but that maybe in many years. For now she just wants to be alone (or as alone as a mother can be without abandoning that).
Neither of us are seeing anyone. We've both agreed that we don't want to introduce that additional complexity while we are negotiating the D. Further, she really does want to be not in an R so that she can figure herself out. We also agreed that we would inform the other should we change our mind about dating so that the other is forewarned rather than surprised.
I'm back in a really busy schedule teaching two classes & taking three for my Masters. It is very good to be back in a sitch where I have a lot of social contact with nice, nurturing people. It also really does make it easier for me to ignore my W while still being friendly and pleasant when we do come in contact. She & I work on the same floor of our building on the same campus, so we do see each other regularly. I just don't have time to stop and chat long or to seek her out. She is definitely getting a different vibe from me, and it is not me trying to play some strategic game. It is genuinely not being focused on her.
Thanks for sharing. I am looking down the barrel of dealing with separation mediation after 4.5 months of living under the same roof trying by myself to turn things around. I will keep up with you and may ask advice.
I'll be glad to help. I'll try to look in on your thread and catch up on your sitch. Hang in there.
Thank you for taking the time and sharing. I feel down just reading about the direction you wife is heading. I still struggle trying to understand why they cut and run. Sorry,I'm feeling a bit down tonight. Peace
It is more that she hasn't shared enough for me to understand. I know she has given it a lot of thought, and that this is very hard for her. I also know that I have to respect her wishes even if I don't understand them. And, quite frankly, that is the only path that makes sense in terms of building a healthy and potentially loving R with her.
On the one hand, I am still not understanding her and that bothers me. On the other, I am able to focus on myself and my life and let her truly have the space that she feels she needs to care for herself. How could I do otherwise? Ultimately, I do love the woman. I do have an R with her. I am doing right by both of those. That can't be wrong, and the truly letting go really is the only path that has any possibility for reconciliation. Not that it's always easy, but accepting that and being able to really take your focus off her (and even when I've said I'm focused on GAL in the past, I realize that I still had more focus on her than myself, and that this wasn't good for me, her, or our R/M).
Hang in there. It took me a long time to get to that point. I don't see anyway around that, so I don't beat myself up over it. Patience is for yourself as well as your sitch.
You are a fine example of how to behave while dealing with complex and challenging circumstances, thank you for your continued openness it is very inspiring.
Asitis, you, as always, have the right things to say to give me hope. You are doing so well.
You say you are not understanding her, but I suspect she doesn't understand herself either.
You are all welcome, and I'm glad you are finding what I post helpful. I hope she doesn't fully understand herself, but I suspect a lot is that she is not willing to open herself up to me and go into depth either because it is too painful, she doesn't want to hurt me, or she just doesn't see the point.
And I do struggle a lot at times, and my mood fluctuates. For instance, the last couple days, I've just been wrestling with why she won't really explain herself and why she really thinks divorce is the answer. There is still a big sore spot in me from that, even if I wouldn't like the answer, it is hard for that sore spot to heal when you keep poking it by wondering.
About to have my DB coach call. I'll post later about that.
For instance, the last couple days, I've just been wrestling with why she won't really explain herself and why she really thinks divorce is the answer. There is still a big sore spot in me from that, even if I wouldn't like the answer, it is hard for that sore spot to heal when you keep poking it by wondering.
That's something I thought about very early on in my sitch and it bothered me also. So many questions, so few answers. The truth is she may not give you an explanation or answer because she may or may not even have one. Even if she did, she may not feel she needs to explain herself to you. It's her life after all, she can do whatever she pleases with it. Nothing you can do about that but accept its her right to chose how she lives.
Is that something you can accept, that she may D you and never give you a real explanation? That she may never speak of your M again, that there may never be that moment where the fog lifts and she regrets anything?
She may walk away from your M and never look back again, no second thoughts, no regrets, no unhappiness. I don't think any of us can accept that early on, but it is a possibility.
So, can you move forward knowing there may never be an answer to some questions?
For instance, the last couple days, I've just been wrestling with why she won't really explain herself and why she really thinks divorce is the answer. There is still a big sore spot in me from that, even if I wouldn't like the answer, it is hard for that sore spot to heal when you keep poking it by wondering.
That's something I thought about very early on in my sitch and it bothered me also. So many questions, so few answers. The truth is she may not give you an explanation or answer because she may or may not even have one. Even if she did, she may not feel she needs to explain herself to you. It's her life after all, she can do whatever she pleases with it. Nothing you can do about that but accept its her right to chose how she lives.
Is that something you can accept, that she may D you and never give you a real explanation? That she may never speak of your M again, that there may never be that moment where the fog lifts and she regrets anything?
She may walk away from your M and never look back again, no second thoughts, no regrets, no unhappiness. I don't think any of us can accept that early on, but it is a possibility.
So, can you move forward knowing there may never be an answer to some questions?
Zues gave me something along these lines early on As:
You may get half the truth in three years, so be ok with that.
It [censored], but it's true. Her version of why she's doing this is going to go through so many iterations anyway, it just depends on the day you talk to her.
My W originally told me she left "to save your life". But then when I told her I had gotten sober added "I thought you would just explode into drinking, doing drugs, and sleeping around as soon as I left and would go as dark as dark could go. Thus I had to move far away." Very different than altruistically leaving me to save my life...
Your W may not want to say anything for a dozen and a half reasons, none of which would make sense to you, nor which make sense to her.
Sorry As. It_is_what_it_is.
PP
I agree that there's a good chance I won't get an answer. Of course I'm not happy with that, and it would be helpful to understand. But I know that I may not get what I want in many, many ways. It is just one of the things that has really surprised me about her.
On another note, had my DB coaching. She agreed that my instinct that her having me looking for signs & starting the inviting W do to things w/ kids & I occasionally sounds good, and that it is about trying and seeing how it goes, and stopping what doesn't work. She also liked my shift in focus to stop watching her for signs and focusing on moving ahead to get to my life.
We talked about my buying the place settings etc. She liked this was both going to send her a signal, but also was an opportunity to open connection and plant seeds for the next stage (if it comes) with new threat of seeming to pursue. Since W is going to be in that space, include her in some of the decisions about what to do. Both W & I have fairly good aesthetic sense, and I'm sticking with things that are safely within both our tastes (they are similar enough to what we bought as a couple). But now ask her opinion about some of those next choices to add some zip, like picking out the place mats & napkins. Treat it like an appendix to the house. Something we share and she is part of that we can work on to please both of us.
Told W what I got and why. She was pleased. I told her I would like her help or get her input on some of the next purchases to go with the stuff I got. She was very happy to help and seemed genuinely excited that we were moving the apartment we share past the crash pad stage to some place we can have friends over and feels more like a home.
The other thing DB coach suggested was that I explicitly tell W that I get that she doesn't see us as a couple, and that I'm not about to resist or change her mind. That I knew she would not make a rash decision and that she was making a decision that she felt she needed & I wanted her to be happy along with all the rest of us. I then suggested that instead of involving someone else in the negotiations at this stage that we start with some of the things we are likely to agree on and work from there. If we get to things where we can resolve something or need legal advice, we can deal with that then. She said she was thinking along the same lines now that she had looked into how things work in a D (she has apparently been reading the D for Dummies book my MiL bought her months ago, as it is not where it has sat since then). She was going to suggest the same thing.
The reason for this suggestion was that DB coach said that D negotiations are actually an opportunity to develop bonds and intimacy by being able to work well together without help to address the needs of both of us. Hadn't really though about it that way, to be frank, but it make sense. If we can work well through this most difficult time of our R, that helps the R (even if it doesn't save the M).
Not excited about this, but she's in agreement. She said that neither of us is happy with this, and that she has gone so slowly because she really wanted to by totally sure. That of course wasn't fun to here, didn't react. Funny how you can get comfortable with a route ahead, but doing it is still emotionally difficult when you are actually doing it.
So she is agreed we will find some time soon to sit down and start the process. I did say that we can move forward to create a better S that we can live w/ and take it from there, and that while some things will need to be legally settled for a D but that once we get to that place the big thing seems not to be the final legal arrangement but that we've taken care of the living arrangements so that we feel we can live our lives. I left it a bit vague. Wanted to say that I thought when we got to that point, we didn't need to rush the D, but could just stay give that true S some time while we saw how that arrangement worked out. Not that I want to stall the D, although having that real space and sense of living her own life may lead to a change of view before we take the final step. More that almost every step there have been decisions, seeing how that goes, then some adjustment that we usually both agree would be good. But I caught my self getting too caught up in thinking about how that stage could go when we have no idea what will grow out of this stage one way or another.
We also did some chatting about my week of classes (both teaching & as student), some of her new students, what I'd be working on that was of interest to both of us. Low key chat.
Then I went to play w/ S3 who had wanted my attention.
Good encounter, a bit of yuck for me along the way, and now back to all the stuff going on in my life.
Other thing that happened today was that I had to miss S6's open house where we found out who his teacher is for this year. I asked about it, she said the teacher seemed nice but they didn't get much time to talk. I asked who it was (I've been active on our PTA, so I know the teachers better), and she said she couldn't remember her name (S6 couldn't either). I thought to myself, WTF? How could you not remember the person who would be our S's teacher for the year when S has some issues and we need to be working with this woman (all 4 possibilities are women)?
She said the name was on a sheet that she left in the car.
Asked if S6's favorite friend from K was in his class. When we did his IAP (Indiv. assessment plan), I had requested that they be kept together. Both have special arrangements, but they are clearly good for each other & really like each other. School folks thought that was a great idea, but I wanted to know if they had followed through. W said she forgot to look at the list. Again, I was like WTF, what did you do. STFU smoothies.
W will have the kids 4 school mornings a week, so we've agreed that I'll swing by and take S6 to school at least one or two mornings per week (esp. the days W teaches). So, I suggested that I would take S to school Monday so I can meet the teacher. She said that would be great and very helpful.
She volunteered to do the food shopping for the week (obviously not for me). I said I would be doing some, and wanted to make Sun. afternoon a day to cook some meals ahead and freeze them both for me & for my nights w/ the kids, & I'd take care of that. I also said, I'd try to make hummus & pita (S6's favorite lunch - he takes after me on this, as it's always been one of my favorite foods) on Sat., and make enough for a couple of his lunches. Which she thought was great.
So, more positive cooperation combined with some puzzling lack of interest/focus on the open house.
You seem to really have it together asitis. I wish I was as wise as you. Keep up the good work.
I do find the coparenting makes the sitch quite interesting. You want to include your w in plans for the kids but it is prob not the best for the R. I am currently struggling with this. It seems you are dealing pretty well. Best of luck.
I still will invite the W to do things occasionally, but I'll give it a pause, before restarting that. And, I'll focus on doing more fun things with the kids rather than inviting her to just dinners.
I wouldn't say it isn't good for the R, as asking and being very casual about it still sends the message that I'm open to this no-obligations R that friends have. I think the DB coach is right on this. That said, it was getting me too focused on her, and I needed to change that so the dynamic would be better for both of us. She also said that she didn't think casual dinners was something right now. Great, back off, and try a slightly different approach. It is not that it was having a bad effect on W, but that it was clear that it wasn't joining us for dinner that would be on the menu in the near future. It was having a bad affect on me by not moving my focus more fully on me and my path.
All that said, I've been working for months w/ DB coach to - as she calls it - let the dust settle. The emotions, the tensions, the pressure, the reactivity. All of it. That has indeed happened. It hasn't meant a course change in the M, but it has improved the R enough that doing something like inviting W along makes some sense. A couple months ago, it definitely would not have been a good idea. So timing is important. Inviting S along is not either a good idea or a bad idea. It is all in the context of where your particular R is going.
I think you are a bit too early to worry about this from what you've shared, so I would just stick the idea in your pocket for later, and focus on the things that are already on your plate.
You seem to really have it together asitis. I wish I was as wise as you. Keep up the good work.
Thanks, but don't sell yourself short. I was a mess for many, many months. I've made a boatload of mistakes. I've worked long and hard, and had a whole lot of help. I've been working w/ a DB coach now for 3.5 months. I've had years of IC. I've had some mental health training, but more importantly, I've had lots of conversations with people w/ lots of this training.
It still takes time. It still is tougher than it may appear from an outside perspective. And, there really isn't anything special that means you won't get to a really good place with lots of good insights & instinct.
You're doing pretty good from what I've seen, and you have not had as many months of making mistakes before you got here and stopped doing most of them. So, have some confidence.
I am glad to check in and see a generally positive direction in you and your sitch. They say agreement draws closer, disagreement separates. Like in improv, the jokes fall flat if someone says no and doesn't go with it, right?
Stay strong, and thank you for the time spent reading my long posts and weighing in as you can.
Thanks Z. I'm glad I've been helpful.
I agree that getting more agreement builds. Not trying to hold out much hope for the M, but it should be better for the co-parenting R. Who knows about the M? That just can't be my concern at this point as it is too far out in the future anyway. I've got enough on my plate right now (which helps a lot - end of the Summer was rough from not being busy enough) to look too much beyond the step or two in front of me.
Thanks for stopping by my thread As, your input is really helpful.
I do see a lot of the parallels in our situations despite my lack of kids to work with. Our W's seem to be in similar spots - making what would appear on paper to be progress with us as H's, but doing so while continuing to head for the door. Maybe this is just how it has to happen before they'll be willing to stop, look back and possibly turn around.
Your point about not worrying about the M as it's too far out in the future is spot on, I feel that too. Now it's about rebuilding a friendship, a long one. That in itself is a challenge when the interactions are interspersed with business, and DB'ing.
I like the focus on you and work, I'm doing the same thing. I've even thought that if my W today were to somehow make her own 180 and tell me, I'm ready to work on R 100% I'd let her know that I'm still considering traveling for all of next year and that isn't going to change no matter what happens between us. I gave all of this year to her decision, next year is mine.
Keep keeping on As. From my perspective your sitch is making progress too. It's hard for all of us to see from the inside, but you've got this handled well in my book.
We all appreciate how much you give on this board too, I don't think there's a single person on here who hasn't benefited by you dropping by and lending your thoughts.
Have a great Saturday. Big hug to you.
PP
I'd agree that there are a lot of similarities. And we lost my beloved dog a couple years ago & haven't replaced gotten another because of the chaos of raising to kids & careers (and now the M sitch), I know that there are pets who play a very similar role to kids in the hearts of some couples. Your's is clearly one of those. Dogs are a lot less complex of course, but what to do when the couple is S is very challenging in a similar way.
One of the things I have had to learn is how to focus on me in a way that doesn't seem as closed off or selfish as I perhaps was in the past. I'm less available to W, but the feel is definitely more open, friendly, and healthy. Hard to explain. But definitely been one of the growth experiences I've seen myself go through.
Thanks for stopping by & giving your support. You have been doing your own part in helping a lot of others here. That's what makes it work. So many of us are doing this.
So rough evening. Feel like I'm coming down w/ S6's cold. Already had been to the grocery store today, and start making dinner: homemade pita & hummus as the main dish. Almost out of garlic & salt. Out of tahini. No mention of these by W when we traded off. Drives me a bit crazy, as I always mention if I use things up. Call her to see if she might have bought replacement but put it some place odd before I have to get the kids dressed & run to the store. Out to store again w/ kids to get tahini. Can't figure out where they keep it & clerk has no idea what tahini even is (I usually get it at the bigger store but that's a 25 minute round trip). Finally find it.
Back home. Struggling w/ new food processor that is leaving things too chunky. Parts of the garlic were bad, so not really enough garlic. then S3 has an accident. Loosing it. Kids are out of control. Dad is starting to lose control. Hummus taste like crap because of lack of garlic & new food processor doing a crappy job.
Then W texts about getting Netflix set up on her laptop. Call & let her know that I'm going nuts & can't really help. She talks me down. Good empathy. Suggests I just get the kids pizza. Sometimes being single parent is really a handful. She knows this as well. I order the pizza and get her some help on the netflix (it's my account, but I had offered a while to let her use it) as a gesture of thanks. Shouldn't have called, but it probably worked out well.
We've really been relaxed w/ each other in many ways the last few days. Good conversations. Her interested in my classes & what I'm studying, my helping out with some gender violence prevention trainings with some other professor's classes, etc.
I really, really wanted to ask her to come over tonight after the kids were in bed. I really just wanted her in my bed for a while. Really strong urge. Didn't ask, but I really wanted to. Still a bit surprised by how powerful the urge was. Glad I didn't act on it, as while I might have just gotten a yes, it was much more likely to have set things back and raised her defenses again.
Tomorrow it will be time to get back on track.
So, I'd like some brainstorming help.
W & I fell for each other because we have common intellectual interests. She is showing signs of interest in what I'm doing now again. But she is also getting back to some of her research that overlaps with what I'm doing. A good sign that maybe some of her depression is lifting.
Her work is researching from a political perspective female shame. She has done a lot of reading and thinking about the topic over the past year, but it is also something that she has been hesitant to share, because it is also personal and connected to our R. We can talk about my work & how it relates to hers, but I want to open up letting her talk about her work, as it is genuinely of interest to me and there is a lot of common ground and interest. She clearly gets enthusiastic about the topic, but I want to figure out how to make it safe for me to engage her and allow her to open up so that it is more her sharing and less me sharing.
It is awkward, and I recognize that it may be a bit too early, but she has brought the subject up a couple times, as if she is interested in making more of a connection. Just two days ago she volunteered that she was getting back into her research, but the kids interrupted discussing it further. I asked today what her research was on: coming back to the ongoing or something new. She was very interested in discussing it, but again the kids wanted her attention and it wasn't a good time. But, I signalled my interest back by asking.
So, I'm trying to think through how to bridge the awkwardness of connecting on this topic. She has not been comfortable doing anything one-on-one because of our sitch, but is clearly indicating interest in engaging. I don't want to scare her off, and I want genuinely want to flag my interest in her interest.
I only have one DB coach session before I have to shell over more money, that is a bit tight right now, so I'm hesitant having another session so soon after my last. It is really funny how I have a session, and then then next day my W initiates some kind of opening that I really want to run by my DB coach. It has happened more than once.
So, thoughts, suggestions, concerns?
That's great that she's interested in sharing with you As, that's fantastic. Is there a way to create an opening when you two switch for the kids, but one where they can't interject and take the focus away?
It sounds like the best thing to do would be to grab lunch or coffee with the specific intent of listening to her talk about her work, but that may be too bold a move at this point and come off as pursuit. You're kind of in a bind that way.
Next time you see her, I'd let her know that you're really interested in it and the last time when she started talking about it the kids got in the mix. Let her then set the stage for the how/where/when that she's comfortable with.
"hey I'd love to hear more about your research, last time we got cut off by the offspring...." (door is now open for her to let you know what way she wants to share)
Then it sounds like you get to sit there and enjoy a delicious cup of STFU and let her talk. And then maybe a second cup...
Hopefully the vets will chime in on this one. I still say it's a good sign.
PP
She has said she's not comfortable doing the one-on-one friend thing right now. I'm also a bit gun shy on this one since some of her wanting to explore female shame is because she felt/feels shame about not standing up for her wants in our M, so it is a bit sensitive.
But probably the best thing is just plant the seed that I'm very interested, and leave the ball in her court to respond or initiate.
Haven't y'all gardened together before? Go over just before she puts them to bed for a nap & asked her to help or show spots to work on etc. There's your in. Work in the same vicinity. Double bonus of bonding teamwork & her sharing her research with you.
Bravo61 is right, find something uncontrived that brings you together so that you can talk and work at the same time. It'll mean that if the R conversation goes off track you can switch focus. Make sure you end the time together prematurely, regardless of how well it's going, leave her wanting more.
If you start to fear this, it's good, you need to be courageous, which is acting despite your fear. No pushing, or shoving, be calm, cool and in control, put your lighthouse beam on its brightest and most attractive setting by being yourself, you can do it.
Haven't y'all gardened together before? Go over just before she puts them to bed for a nap & asked her to help or show spots to work on etc. There's your in. Work in the same vicinity. Double bonus of bonding teamwork & her sharing her research with you.
At first I was thinking you were using a euphemism for having sex in the "haven't y'all gardened together before?" Esp.with the when kids go to bed part (and I wish they would nap still). Shows where my mind is. Then again I just spent 4 hours surrounded by attractive 23-25 year olds wearing short skirts or leggings.
Seriously, we haven't had any real opportunities to do anything together of late except around child hand-off.
I did tell her I was interested in hearing more about her research sometime when we wouldn't be interrupted or distracted by the boys.
I'll just let that brew for a while, then find the opportunity to see if I can peak her interest to initiate further talk.
Really busy this week, so I haven't been posting much. Not much time for W either. We did have a few good talks about mutually interesting stuff, and I was the one to disconnect the discussion.
Lots of activity on FB with my M.A.cohort to keep the W wondering what I'm doing. Plus friend brought her kids over to share a baby sitter while we went to our Buddhist group. W was just leaving when she arrived & saw me playing a bit w/ friends D2, who is adorable.
Got home and W had left her Divorce for Dummies book in the bedside table. LOL. I knew she had it, and knew she had been reading it. Bothered me a lot for a while. Now, it was just a chuckle and back to my life. I'm curious if she realizes that she forgot it and feels compelled to bring it up. Some good comments did pop into my head, like "I didn't know there was any other kind of divorce?" More chuckles. But no sting, which made me happy to realize.
Also, had coffee after group video call w/ classmate who already has an M.A.in Marriage & Family Therapy, but burned out trying to build a private practice, and is going back to do school counseling. She's trained in systems theory, as are all those who do MFT rather than social workers who also get their certificate but may not really study systems theory. It was a very insightful conversation. Reinforced a lot of DB coach (who also is trained in systems theory), and added a few nuggets because we were talking shop rather than just planning the practicalities of what to do. I'm always the type who does better knowing how the watch works.
Some new counseling students have friend requested me, so W is seeing a slew of attractive young women in her FB notices.
Still haven't received my d*mned place settings. Still need to find some place mat/napkin candidates to run past my W as DB coach suggested, but until I can show her the place settings, that project is on hold.
I'll try to catch up on people's threads in the next couple days, but I expect to be swamped and have more trouble keeping up for stretches of every week for a while.
Asitis, you are making very good progress, keep on doing what you are doing although, if I may make an observation, you do seem to be doing things to, or wondering if events that are taking place will make your wife think, why are you doing this?
Remain caught up in what's happening in your life and leave it at that, she may or may not be wondering but if she senses you are looking over your shoulder, with a "are you looking at me" smile on your face, she may become cynical about all the progress you've made in many other areas, which would be a tragedy.
Just dropped in to catch up asitis. I become more insightful from your thread with each thought you express. Thanks
I agree, but I really don't think I'm sending that signal to her. Last night, for instance, I went out to meet my friend & her kids in part because W was out there & didn't know them. Didn't want any awkwardness between them. Once out, friend's D initiated the play. Nothing intentional. Besides, I felt a bit awkward like I had a closer R with my friend that her D was happy to see me even though I've only met her D once at a play date.
Same w/ the new FB friends. It is just that the thought pops into my head jeez, wonder what W is thinking about this my interacting so much w/ my young female friends. Focus is pulled away from my life by realizing W is watching me, not that I'm doing things to draw attention. If I wanted to do that, I'd be initiating friend requests to more of my classmates & others in my programs (I'm the old guy in the program, so I've erred on waiting for the young W to initiate on FB so to avoid the creepy old guy feelings). If anything, the humor is a response for my being a bit uncomfortable that I'm building a life apart from her, but she is still always there in the background observing.
But good reminder Beagley.
So, turns out W left something else out that she probably didn't intend. An old vibrator that I bought her as a gift years ago (no longer vibrates). It was tucked into the fitted sheet next to where we both sleep on the bed at the house.
Mixed feelings triggered by that. A bit of jealousy that she might be fantasizing that it is someone else. A bit of hope that it might be me that she is fantasizing about. Not sure whether she fantasizes or just takes care of the urge. Wondering if there were some way to plant the seed that I would not read any meaning about our R into her coming over for the real if she wants to scratch that itch. Then, no, I just leave it where it is & say nothing (just like the divorce book), as it is more likely to trigger defenses when some opening to talking about things of interest is going on.
I doubt she is thinking about pursuing a new R, as she is actually gaining weight to the point where it is showing. She normally would respond to that by exercising and cutting back a bit on deserts. If there were a new interest, she'd definitely be worried about doing things to attract. Doesn't mean she doesn't have interests that she is fantasizing about. But I don't want her to feel like I'm getting in the way of that by her even realizing I know that she is taking care of her needs. Not my business, and I respect that we are not a couple and I have no claims on her body even if we were.
Really would like to have some coffee though. It doesn't help that I'm surrounded by attractive young women in leggings and skirts five days a week. Don't want them though (still prefer W despite everything). Just adds to the reminders that I have unmet needs in that area.
I think she left it there for you to find. I mean, she knows you sleep in that bed. Maybe she is telling you that she misses sex, or maybe she is telling you that she can take care of herself. It could go either way.
The sex thing has been hard for me too. I still get some when I really can't stand it anymore, my H is still in the bed and doesn't seem to mind if I just, ummm, help myself, but he doesn't initiate and the emotional connection isn't there so its not the same. I suspect you'd find the same with your W if you had the opportunity.
Definitely be careful with the young women, you can complicate your life so quickly.
If I had chosen that particular item to give my H a clue, I think I would have left it on his pillow.
You men are so easy!
Sandi, not all men are that easy! My H literally believes that I "forget" to wear clothes to bed on occasion. Men can be really clueless. But women I think know exactly what we are doing.
This one is not clueless. With my W even the slightest unintentional flash of something would draw my like a fly to honey. I definitely was too easy - it really would have been better if she had to work a little bit. I can recognize other women as being attractive, and even prettier than my W in some abstract sense or what society would judge, but it is my W that I am drawn to, and likely always will be. She thinks it is just because I want something sex. Even when I've tried to be very clear about why it is not that, she doesn't really believe -- yes, she has issues with believing she is lovable & that is a big part of our problems. Very sad.
No, I don't think this was intentional. Just that I don't factor into her thinking right now, or that she just plain forgot. Either way, not mentioning it will not be the reaction she expects either.
I cannot tease her, and she is sensitive about sexuality even though she likes sex, and she liked sex with me a lot. I was the initiator mostly, as it was part of my primary love language. She really has to be the one to initiate things because of that dynamic. She has to feel in total control right now if she is going to take any risks.
And, trust me on the young women. There is only one I am actually attracted to as a person, and I could theoretically be her grandfather. There is such a huge experience gap that I know I would lose interest very, very fast. I couldn't do that to someone I liked.
I've also had decades of experience being around attractive young women with daddy issues as my students. I've never gotten close to that boundary. My boundary issue is that I tend to get fatherly. It is more seeing all the fit young women wearing tight leggings that are the trend at least wear I am. I am a butt & leg man (esp. the former), and that just isn't very nice of them - not that they are thinking of attracting the attention of someone like me when they chose what to wear.
No, where I'm going to possibly get in trouble is if they have attractive available aunts who know how to seduce. That will take will power. Good thing I've built that up through my meditation practice, as I really don't want any complications while we negotiate a D and sort through the rubble of our R for what we want to save and perhaps build on.
Oh, and on whether she is sending a message. I just can't imagine forgetting something like that. And if she were trying to send a message, I doubt she would have left the divorce book there as well. And, I haven't been doing any flirting or sending any other messages of pursuit or interest in sex her way. I just think she forgot to gather up all her things after an afternoon of being with the boys, getting dinner for them, and packing up her stuff. Still, I would think someone who has expressed discomfort talking about masturbation would be very careful about leaving such things around.
Who knows? I don't understand all that she is going through, or why she behaves the way she does sometimes. I know that she is struggling with her decision just like I am. She claims that she has no doubts, but it still is very painful.
I'll entertain critiques of the no response decision, but it seems right to me. Still, it is a very powerful reminder of something I miss badly.
Ah the beauty of DB'ing...you get to read between all lines. Even the ones that are left behind and don't vibrate any more.
I wouldn't read too much into it As, as much I hope it's a good sign for you.
I'm sure she has doubts, I'd bet a thousand dollars on it. And underneath those doubts is the need to live day to day with all of our desires and fumbley human needs. You're a rockstar my friend. Navigating all that you do with classes, students, and kids must be a huge load to carry.
Keep putting one foot in front of the other.
PP
Ran into W in the halls. Told me she ran over to the house to get a running bra (likely true), and wanted to let me know that she was there as sh put something in the fridge. Lay money she realized her faux pas, and went back to correct the oversight.
Anyway. I'll get back to post something interesting I've been looking into that my M&FT friend mentioned.
So, I mentioned in an earlier post that I had coffee w/ a classmate. She is one of the more interesting colleagues in the program, as she has a MA in Marriage & Family Therapy, and has several years of clinical experience w/ couples.
When we turned to discussions of my M (which I'm happy was not the focus of our talk - mostly on the program, being back in school, what we thought of some of the other people, shop talk about approaches, etc.). She said it sounds like W had Negative Sentiment Overload. I hadn't heard of it before, but it is one of John Gottman's studied concepts. Gottman is one of the most well regarded researchers on M, btw.
The idea is that Ss are either in positive sentiment overload (rose-colored glasses) or negative sentiment overload (sh*t-colored glasses) when they filter what their S does or says. When in positive sentiment overload, they interpret minor negative acts or statements as no big deal or even see it as neutral. Like, "OK, S is in a bad mood" but with the idea that this is not really a problem and the good S will shortly be back.
When in negative sentiment overload, every action or statement is perceived as bad and a threat by an opponent. Even things perceived by neutral observers as good, loving gestures, are perceived as attacks by the S in this mode. No matter what you do, your actions will be viewed as disingenuous attempts at manipulation.
Some of the later research indicates that this applies for neutral to mildly negative when S is in positive, but that seriously negative still get interpreted as negative. On the other side, even strongly positive get viewed as neutral or negative by the S in the negative mode. Not surprising as we are wired to be especially on guard against threats (a negativity bias).
It helps explain some of the frustration and disconnect we LBSs feel when our well-meaning actions and words trigger a hostile reaction. I know this happened a number of times w/ my W. I was just dumbstruck at the time on one.
So, a good MC would work to get the S in the negative mode to start working to look at the positives in the other S and the M. Now, what if you aren't in MC? There is good news and bad news.
First the good news: the switch can tack place remarkably fast. Literally an aha moment. The S takes off the sh*t-colored glasses (they say grey glasses in the literature, btw) & puts on the rose-colored glasses. In an R, you wear one or the other, the research indicates.
How do you get S who is not cooperating by investing themselves in MC? It is done through friendship. Really, getting to the point where the S relaxes enough to open up to being casual friends. That is what we are all working toward according to my DB coach (& I know she knows this literature, we just don't go into the theory and research in our limited time on the phone).
So, it takes a while, as you need to let things settle down. And, remain open and friendly, but do everything you can not to pursue or do anything nice for S. Anything nice will just slow this down, as it will strengthen the negative mode while they are in it. Really, back off. Leave openings for connection, have short pleasant chats, have no expectations or set any obligations on S. Then keep that up.
Once the friendship openings start being taken up by S, you need to restrain yourself and stick to plan. It is like having a fragile bird in your hand. A sudden move will spook them and they'll fly away. You need to let the friendship aspect develop gradually. Once that happens, a change could be very sudden. You should be prepared for that if it happens, and have some idea how you want to respond when it happens.
So, the bad news. I don't see any other methods mentioned for getting to that point in the literature. If I do, I'll pass that along. But if S does not get to that relaxed F stage, and won't invest him or her self into MC with someone who is aware of this dynamic, the chances are slim to have this critical switch take place.
I haven't seen anything on defensive reactions which make the S jump back in fear once they get this switch, but the suggestion is that this is temporary, as the perceptions have changed. Patience but small reinforcing gestures are probably OK.
Anyway, it helps me to know the theory & research behind the advice I've been given. This helps underline the importance of backing off and just letting things calm down between you and your S, while keeping it clear through body language & friendly interactions that you are open to the friendship. Don't tell S this, it has to be just the planting seeds and tending them. If an IC tells S, then it will likely be fine (as it is coming from someone with whom S does not have a negative sentiment bias). But it can't come from you.
I hope that helps some of you as much as it helped me to learn it.
Cheers!
Nothing to add except that it took me three paragraphs to realize that you meant ACTUAL coffee.
LOL. Yes. Her partner is a cop, so even if I were interested, I'd look for my coffee elsewhere thank you. No, she just is a really good soul and one of the few people that has enough experience and background to be really insightful and interesting to talk shop with. I don't feel like it becomes a tutoring session with her, as I do with many of the others.
BTW, she highly recommended John Gottman's What Makes Love Last? While the title makes it sound like many of his other books which focuses on how to strengthen a struggling marriage, this one talks about healing the marriage after the split or betrayal. I haven't read it, but I just placed an order. She's strong on saving the M unless there is abuse (and she had an abusive R before, so she understands that well).
Weird. I would have bet that W came over this morning to take care of the forgotten book & "toy." Nope. Both right where they were. I guess she just forgot. Strange. I can't imagine forgetting & leaving something like that out, and I'm not as bashful about such things as my W always has been.
Then again, her memory has been off during a lot of this time.
Just another scratch one's head, shrug one's shoulders, and give a chuckle at the oddities of W's behavior.
Remember the board game Clue? WAW -in the bedroom - with the toy and divorce book.
It's a shame you can't have a good humorous moment over it with her.
Clue was one of my absolute favorite board games when I was in that age range.
Yes about the joking around.
As, I think you should put a picture of your smiling face on it.
LOL. That would spoil her mood. I think the humor would be lost on her.
But think about us, As, you would be cheering up a lot of lonely depressed heartbroken DB'ers. Come on, we need the laugh!
Now I want to find a way to mess with my H, I am a joker and he NEVER gets my humor. Even when things were good.
If you were REALLY a nice guy, you'd replace it with one that works.
^^^Literally LOL'ed Azzork^^^ or put some batteries next to it
You guys are killing me! I am LOL too.
If you were REALLY a nice guy, you'd replace it with one that works.
If I thought she'd accept, I'd offer one that works any time she wants to come over and crawl into bed with me.
Man, she'd be horrified if she knew what we were talking about.
OK, we've had fun, but I'm feeling a bit bad about continuing it the more I think about it. I know I instigated, and I had some venting to do & some serious questions. I also know that none of you know her, but it still feels like I'm crossing a boundary that I'd like to pull back on. There is also something sad that she has a loving man who would give her all the pleasure, affection, and comfort, and she is not able to let herself take that risk.
Thanks for the laughs though.
Today is also a bit of a down day. I figured out that part of it is that when start relaxing and feeling like things are going well between us that she usually pours some salt in the wounds by wanting to move forward on the D. I think I was/am unconsciously experiencing anticipatory anxiety.
The push/pull is the hardest for a lot of us As, I feel it too. You get a good sign, or interpret something as a good sign but have to keep the idea in mind that it doesn't mean anything to your WAW. To them it's just a kind gesture, or a smile, or a laugh. It doesn't change what they really want or what they're still planning on doing.
Take it all in stride. You can sit through anything and will get through all of this in one piece. Better than a lot of people on here I'd venture, even though your pain is still your own.
Hope you get some cushion time this weekend.
PP
Strange. I can't imagine forgetting & leaving something like that out, and I'm not as bashful about such things as my W always has been.
My W has done things like this months and months ago and you might not like the answer to why. She likely just doesn't think about it. She is so focused on her new life and how happy it is going to make her that you and things such as that don't cross her mind that often. She has more important things to think about and focus on(to her).
There is also something sad that she has a loving man who would give her all the pleasure, affection, and comfort, and she is not able to let herself take that risk.
Today is also a bit of a down day. I figured out that part of it is that when start relaxing and feeling like things are going well between us that she usually pours some salt in the wounds by wanting to move forward on the D. I think I was/am unconsciously experiencing anticipatory anxiety.
Its not what they want in life right now so why should they try to fill their needs with us. It could be they want something specific more so why would they have the cappuccino when they're going after the latte.
Expectations will get you, they creep up deep down when you don't even realize it. That's the difficult part of doing all of this with hope that things will work out by our actions. You can do everything right and DB perfectly and it mean nothing. The fact is while we have some influence on them coming back its still mostly on them. Compare it to filling a bucket with water. We have the eye dropper and they have a big gulp cup. What we do, no matter how well, will only have so much of an effect on the outcome.
I think it mostly just forgetfulness on her part. It's not just things having to do w/ me, she's just plain more forgetful.
I know that she is not thinking her life is all that great right now. She's showing signs of depression still, talks about how hard this is for her, and just doesn't seem all that happy. That doesn't mean she is sitting around thinking of me & how to send messages.
You're right that we don't ultimately have that much control. We can DB perfectly and still have it not work out. I think this down mood today was not a why aren't we making progress down. It is more that I was starting to feel like the stress was down and things were at least smooth sailing so that I could just focus on my life. It is often then that W throws something into the room to screw that mood up. So, just pure anticipatory anxiety. I know things haven't changed, I know there are going to be these, things are going well right now, so it's time for her to make things uncomfortable again.
Putting it this way, I wonder if she starts feeling this way too, and it scares her. As we can just relax and get settled into a grove of relatively smooth sailing as co-parents. That could make her feel uneasy for many reasons (fear that she might have some feelings towards me, fear that she has not been maintaining her boundaries forcefully enough & I might do something that hurts her, fear that I'm not paying attention to her when I can be just pleasant but not focused on her like I clearly am when she stirs the pot). Who knows. No use guessing. But realizing that for whatever reason that there seems to be a pattern that I've unconsciously picked up on is at least something to be aware of. Not that I can do anything about it. But knowing that this is just par for the course may make it easier to not get caught by surprise.
Just thinking out loud. And, yes I'm aware there was a bit of mind reading in some of that. In this case, it is allowing me to relax & get my focus back on me.
DB when S is sick
OK, W has a cold. No big deal, but it reminded me of one of the scenarios I've puzzled about wo/ resolution. What to do when W gets sick enough to not be able to watch kids on her days? So, I decided to work through it some more here.
We have no family in the area to fall back on. Sure, there are babysitters. But we don't have someone on retainer. During the week, there is school & day care, but that only covers part of the day.
I'm busy. She is busy. She has been there for me when I went through months of cancer treatment that left me debilitated. Despite everything, I'm still pretty sure she would be there to help if I were really sick or injured, and I know I would be there for her in the same situation. It is who I am, and it is one of those things I'm not going to change.
Anyway, I'm pondering over my instinct to try to help, and my "this is the way she wanted it" reaction. I know that at some level she must not want or expect to rely on me as an H when convenient while not wanting me as an H. I also know that she would likely try to help some if the tables were turned, at least now.
Yet, now my schedule is busier than hers, and much less flexible. I really can't get behind, and I can't miss classes.
I also know that after the likely D, and if she is in a new R, that reciprocation will not be as available or available at all. So, do I do the nice thing, or is it time for tough love. This is what it is likely going to be like. If it isn't too much of an inconvenience, I might help you at such times, but I'm not going to drop things on your day because you aren't capable of handling it.
Thoughts? What have others done, particularly those who have the instinct to help & may have struggled w/ this conundrum?
Hi Asitis. I think it may be best to approach this primarily with a child focus, and not make it about you and her.
If she has a cold, she is well enough to be able to look after the kids. However, if she has flu, she probably isn't well enough. I think if you use that as your guide, that may be a good plan. And if you are getting news that she is really incapacitated, you can step in and help to ensure the kids are well looked after.
Otherwise, you may want to wait until or unless she asks for help, in which case you can assist if you are comfortable and able to do so...
Yes. I don't offer any more. There has to be a request.
It was one of the times she allowed herself to be pampered & cared for, and something I enjoyed doing. But I've been deconditioned by having her negative reinforcement for being the nice, helpful H.
asitis, being blunt why are you thinking about these things? Are you using her cold as an excuse to step off the DB path? You are detached/detaching right? So deal with things like this as and when she asks, nothing more. If you sense the kids are going to be unduly impacted, maybe take action even if it's not requested. The kids can look after their to a certain extent and their being around will probably lift her anyway. Get back to the focus on your hectic schedule and if something major comes up (it won't) deal with it, you aren't there for her anymore, you are there for you and your kids.
Nope. It had me thinking ahead to what the DB path is when the sitch arrives. It is something we haven't really faced yet, and the kids are the issue. How do we arrange things so that we have a workable plan when one of us is sick enough to not be able to watch the kids. Is it a you scratch my back kind of deal, or do we just leave each other to fend for ourselves? I'd rather think ahead and negotiate an arrangement that is workable & DB-friendly, than fly by the seat of my pants.
Point taken though.
Another surprise down day. Maybe it's working on a holiday. Maybe it is not being able to spend my holiday with my family. Maybe it is some small trigger from yesterday's kid swap with W. But, sometimes I feel like my WAW is one of those MWD says just never give the M another chance, no matter what.
My W can be stubborn. She had a year to consider her options, was in IC during that time. She thought a lot about her decision, and took her time to be sure (she says, & I believe her). In the almost 5 months since asking for a D and probably a month longer since she made her decision, she has not wavered in the slightest.
She says there she has gone very slowly and cautiously because she wanted to be sure. She is sure, she claims. She doesn't see any possibility for her changing her mind or reconciliation any time in the foreseeable future. Maybe years and years from now. Trying to avoid R talk, I didn't pursue what her reasoning is, but I suspect a lot has to do with her feeling like it is not healthy to be in any relationship for the foreseeable future, and especially one with someone she feels hurt her who she can't trust not to hurt her further.
OK, I know that she can't predict the future any more than I can, but she is stubborn, and I know she is scared of being hurt and lovable. I get that. I also see her as the type who will stamp out any slight glimmer of feeling because it is so threatening.
I really wish there were some clues to figure out if she were the WAW type who truly never looks back. I don't want to beat a dead horse. No matter how skilled at DBing you are, some Ws just aren't going to give the M a chance. That is what I see in my W's consistent message and actions. Yes, I'm doing good DB'ing, and yes I know it is for me as much as anything, but as long as I'm holding out the slightest hope, it keeps me focused on her & us when the best thing is likely to just give up totally. Not worry about what I say or do. Stop trying to be a good DB'ing spouse by not responding when she is unfair. Stop taking one for the team when there is no team, and likely no possibility of a team.
I know: cheeseless tunnel, no way to know, just keep detaching and GAL'ing, etc. Just explaining where my thoughts were going when I examined why I was feeling down and hopeless. I just needed to ventilate those thoughts so that I could see them for what they were and gain some perspective. Don't worry, I'm not going to change course. Just some catharsis.
And maybe it will help some of you who read my thread or other threads I post on to see that I am not some kind of super DB'er. Just a fallible human, after all. Just like the rest of us. Thankfully. I couldn't relate to & help others if I weren't. Got to take the bitter with the sweet.
Back to work (ugh, I'm not in the mood).
As, I'm a bit of a wreck right now and not qualified to give advice. I too, am looking for that crystal ball to know if there is a chance. I hope you have a better day. I am going to take a nap and cry myself to sleep.
Warm e-hug from a fellow traveler P. We'll both get through.
Sorry As, some days are just like that. I have the same feelings.
A counselor we both went to said, "Don't walk away from your M until you've exhausted any and every possible way to fix it." I told me W this and she said, "That's why I'm leaving you, it's going all in..."
This from a couple that only went to one counseling session together in our M, found it useful and didn't feel the need to go back. Doesn't sound like we've exhausted anything, just walked away.
Tomorrow's a new day man, you never ever know what will shift. You just don't. The holidays are hard too, they just are. It triggers all kinds of things.
All we can do is stick to DB'ing, and keep that focus on ourselves. Keep growing, keep expanding, keep becoming a better man. I hate to hear it, but I'll say it, if you do that you can't lose. You may not realize that this year, or next, but it's true.
You're a good man and should be with a woman that recognizes that. Or be on your own until your ready to have someone in your life, W or other.
Human or not, you're still a DB rockstar in my book As. Let today go.
PP
Thanks the kind words and thought PP. As you say, tomorrow is another day.
Probably should schedule my next (& last, unless I can figure out how to pay for more) DB session w/ my coach.
Hey asitis - that is exactly what I am thinking re my H. He is so stubborn. It is like once he has made a decision he will not budge. Today marks the one year date since he walked out with no prior warning. He came over today to help move a bed for our son and he cut the hedge as was all nice nice. This after yesterday when he said he is entitled to half of everything and we HAVE to sell our family cottage so he can get his own place.
Asitis, you know it's one of those downs on the roller coaster, nothing more.
Talking with your DB coach makes sense in some ways but if it's your last session for a while maybe revisiting your goals to get you back on a up part of the ride and reviewing your progress is a good first step before making the appointment if you really feel you need to. Looking at your previous posts, you seem to me to have lost sight of what you are aiming to achieve and allowed your W's fog to get to you. It's kind of the downside to cathartic moments they bring back stuff you had moved to the back of your mind, so don't be hard on yourself.
She may or may not change her mind, sitting around waiting you know isn't an option, moving on with the new you is and will potentially be a good reason why she does change her view and if she doesn't then it won't be of much importance to you as you'll have truly moved on.
You have said yourself that it's a long hard road, so hang on in there, there's better conditions ahead of you. {{{{man-hug}}}}
So, I'm trying to be more scarce generally. When I'm around W be friendly and casual. But when I'm not, I don't want to give her the contact. Of course this is hard working on the same floor. Often, however, I can go a day wo/ running into her.
Of course this week we had Labor Day (although I was in catching up on work because I'm a tool), so didn't see her then. Was hoping to make it through today. Nope. Talking w/ a colleague we're both long time friends w/. W come up the stairs and we're right there. So she stops to chat.
I know. Good thing. But all I could think of after is, I want her to actually feel what it's like to not have me around, and this isn't her getting to stop and have a quick chat is giving her just enough that it fills her need to stay marginally connected without actually feeling the loss of connection.
It's almost like trying to detach and distance when you have an in-house S. Guess, I'm just in a glass half empty sort of mood today.
Oh, and I'm up to 5 new 22-3 year-old very attractive women FB friends this week from the new students in my program (one of whom is married). And, before you ask, I'm not going to pursue any of them, it's just the norm in our program to develop good connections w/ our fellow students as part of building a therapeutic support network. Also, I wait for them to initiate the friend request to avoid the creepy old man vibe. Still, a couple times I wished I knew what my W thinks when she sees this.
Tonight several of us were going to meet up for dinner before class. I put on my calendar (W & I keep calendars that we each can see for coordinating kids purposes): dinner w/ the gals. Oh, and these dinners can be very amusing, as you are let into the strange world of young women who still think and act like college students. As a professor, I only got glimpses, but now I get to see behind the curtain that usually keeps us old folks out. I learn a lot of things I'm really can't imagine being interested in. But is also very interesting studying the social dynamics and dances that go on. I'm often in conversations, but there are sometimes when they just get a head of steam, when I have to clear out of the way and let them have their girl chat time.
Weird day today. Was going great, then W e-mailed me about taking the kids early so she can do a training for something she is going to volunteer for. No problem, but immediately wondered if she was doing this w/ someone, if you know what I mean. Quickly dispatched that as either silly or not something I really have any control over.
Then realized how much I still missed being part of her life, even after 7 months of S and lots of detachment. Went through all the fun of wondering whether or not she missed me and was determined not to allow that to stop her decision or just plain old didn't miss me. Whatever, cheeseless tunnel. That passed.
Then tonight I got John Gottman's What Makes Love Last? which a colleague recommended as his best for couples that were actually failing, rather than his usual target audience of couples worried about their relationship & strengthening it. Read a little bit, then took his questionaire on throwing in the towel (ch. 12). Tried to do it from my perspective & then from W's based on what she is saying & I suspect would be her realistic answer. Scored in the your R is dead zone. Sh*t. But surprisingly, that gave me a preverse hope. I recognized that her neuropathways have become re-wired in the past year to perceive most things I do as negative & a threat (which is part of where the re-writing R history comes from - I'll write about that sometime). And, we really are in the first month or so of me not triggering her negative reaction, having a few truly pleasant interactions, no negative triggers. It will take a while for those new associations to create new opportunities to view events differently. I have some of that time, as even if we start pushing forward on negotiations, nothing final is happening until after May of next year, and I doubt we could pull it off by then.
So, even with that negative stuff, I'm oddly optimistic coming out of today. I want to try to be less accessible generally. For instance, this afternoon I had the boys & we did father-sons dinner night. Dropped them off at the house. W was upstairs. Said goodbye to the boys, made sure she was actually up there by calling up, then left. I'm sure she expected me to take the opportunity to come up and attempt connection. Just got in the car and got home. I have some reading to get done for work/school tomorrow, & I'll swap the kids then. No reason to be available or intrude while she was relaxing in an evening off.
Nothing really big, but just felt like sharing.
Asitis warm hugs from ME to you I just thought I would check in on your sitch having a stubborn partner does not make things any easier but my thoughts are you have to keep that open mind
When you say have not explored every option I too can relate fully to this my w will not go to counselling she has checked out she has given up....well my thoughts are when everything is done and dusted I need to be able to say to myself and possibly my children I tried Everything to keep us all together if I can do this then I will sleep better.
Take care
Ghost
I like Gottman. I have one of his books and was thinking of getting "What Makes Love Last?". Let me know what you think when you have digested it.
Have you had to deal with icy indifference and silence from your wife. I would love to know how you might handle it. I remain neutral and try to ignore it. I think I give off a nervous vibe when I talk to her. I sometimes get apologetic when I feel the dreaded eye roll coming.
I did have to deal w/ that during the height of the anger stage and before I learned the difference between ending the pursuit and END THE PURSUIT. What I mean by that is that while I thought I had stopped pursuing by not initiating contact other than when it was an issue concerning the kids/co-parenting, I was still subtly pursuing her in may ways.
The other thing was really learning to listen & validate better to her anger, then come back the next day or so & tell her I thought about what she said & revalidate. Helped to go away for over two weeks as well.
So, nothing specific to say, but it is a signal that you may still be pursuing in ways you don't realize and she is responding to the threat w/ distancing defense.
Asitis warm hugs from ME to you I just thought I would check in on your sitch having a stubborn partner does not make things any easier but my thoughts are you have to keep that open mind
When you say have not explored every option I too can relate fully to this my w will not go to counselling she has checked out she has given up....well my thoughts are when everything is done and dusted I need to be able to say to myself and possibly my children I tried Everything to keep us all together if I can do this then I will sleep better.
Take care
Ghost
That's true in a sense, but the best thing I think I'm doing is to stop focusing on fixing the M, and focus on myself. Just really give her the space she clearly wants, allow her to have no real reason to perceive me as threatening, limit the interactions sharply so that there are just a few pleasant interactions, not daily or even multiple contacts a day, even if she seems to be initiating some. So, stopping trying to fix the M is the best way it seems to actually stand a chance to possible fix the M down the road. It is also, just a lot less stressful and let's me focus on re-building my life.
I know you seem really reluctant to stop trying to fix things, or find that trick that we are overlooking, but it really does work better to let go a lot. Try it. If it doesn't work, you try something else. You get time to experiment a bit before the clock strikes midnight.
Thank you asitis, your wisdom is only surpassed by your compassion.
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That's true in a sense, but the best thing I think I'm doing is to stop focusing on fixing the M, and focus on myself. Just really give her the space she clearly wants, allow her to have no real reason to perceive me as threatening, limit the interactions sharply so that there are just a few pleasant interactions, not daily or even multiple contacts a day, even if she seems to be initiating some. So, stopping trying to fix the M is the best way it seems to actually stand a chance to possible fix the M down the road. It is also, just a lot less stressful and let's me focus on re-building my life.
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I like this As, it's the same thing only in a much different focus. The more you work on you, the more you can do for your M when the time is right. And the more space you'll give your W. As you said in an earlier post, she still has access to you, lots of it. That's not space and separation.
Keep building yourself As, do all of the things simply to turn yourself into the man you know you can be and let the rest unfold as it will.
I have complete faith in your ability to focus on a project or task and this seems like a really good one.
Thanks for your words tonight as well, they were a big help to me.
Big hug,
PP
Your welcome PP. Of course,it is much easier to say than do, at least in my experience. It is still too easy to get sucked into her orbit. It is more like I decide to go this route, and do fine for a week or so when I'm really focused on abiding my my decision. But gradually the gravity of her pull reels me in a bit, and I catch myself having slipped. Then you repeat w/ the focusing on what you decided, and go through the same cyle. Lather, rinse, repeat.
I am going to get that book. I am SURE my H's neuropathways have been rewired. I can literally ask him "How are you?" and he will jump down my throat and say "what do you mean by that?" This is a real example.
As, just so you know I have ordered almost every book you've recommended and have quite a library now.
Thanks for your informative and thoughtful postings as always.
I have been getting similar reactions from my W. The other night she started a fire in the fire pit out back. I came out and asked where she found the wood so quickly. She got mad and said that I was being accusatory. As if I cared where the wood came from. I was just making small talk. This has happened several times in the past few months where she takes what I say and turns it around as if I am accusing her of something.
She even said that she didn't like the way I pray with the kids. I always start by thanking God for my family, house, job etc... She thinks im trying to make her look bad or something.
It looks to be a very useful book, at least in places. There are still a lot of things one can't apply if the S doesn't want to work on the R. It also paints a somewhat bleak picture for Ms in the state ours our in. But, it makes one realize that getting to the point where you have stopped triggering the association of you with anger & pain, where things are friendly (not friends yet, but maybe), that if given enough time, the associations can shift out of Negative Sentiment Override.
It isn't easy wo/ good MC, but that tool has been taken out of most of our hands by our Ss. Giving calm, and friendly, and hoping for a bit of actual friendship, and time is what seems to be the conclusion of what I've looked at in the book so far.
The reason the M history gets rewritten is the cognitive dissonance between the memory and the current feeling state. The brain rewires to make the focus of the memory connect to the current feeling state. Spend a long enough time in that negative state, and the memories that are dredged up get reassigned. It is probably the reason why you shouldn't bring up the good times to S at this stage. You are just offering those memories up to be recatagorized. Let them be until maybe the current feeling state alters. Then when they are accessed, they will be seen more positively. At least that's my take on it.
Yes! That makes sense. It is at the point where I am completely blown away at the way he interprets things. Its like he has to be trying to put a negative spin on things, actively trying because it is such a stretch. There has to be something going on in his brain that is causing this.
And the fire pit example- yes, that is my life too right now!
I ordered the book.
Ugh! W just e-mailed to see if we can meet for an hour to start dividing up assets & finances. I was hoping she'd go a bit slower on this. Not just because I'm not anxious to do this, but I'm tired & I just don't want to deal with it.
I should add, that my immediate reaction is to try to reason with her about letting this have time & what we are both going through, & why does is she so sure that this is best. I won't, but you recognize how much it still prods and pulls at you.
Just don't react. A good mantra.
Maybe she can get all of the relationship books in the split, you're a master at this by now. I am sorry for your pain today, but maybe each step you go through will get you closer to the other side, whichever way it ends up. One step closer to being off the roller coaster.
I am disappointed to read this. It must be difficult emotionally. I am sad writing this. Be well my friend.
Maybe she can get all of the relationship books in the split, you're a master at this by now. I am sorry for your pain today, but maybe each step you go through will get you closer to the other side, whichever way it ends up. One step closer to being off the roller coaster.
DB & DR as part of the settlement. I like that.
I am disappointed to read this. It must be difficult emotionally. I am sad writing this. Be well my friend.
As we say, we don't know what she is actually thinking, where her mind will be a month from now, let alone 8 months. So, it is what it is. It just still surprises me when it kicks me in the gut.
You have helped me a lot so I just wanted to chime in and say I feel your pain. My D is proceeding as well. He text and he said either I file or he was but he needed to get done this week. I said if you feel that is what you need then you go ahead and file I am not.
He said he would have be served at work today and sorry if I would be embarrassed. I said no worries. I have not gotten served today.
My point is Asitis is that you are right maybe down the road they will rethink it or regret it but right now in my situ he has no regrets and no rethinks and for me it is best just to move forward. I think H will go thru with it.
Look at it this way would you really want them back in the state that they are in now? Could you imagining living with them like they are now for another 20 years? I say no way. I am willing to compromise because I know some things need changed but lets face it they kinda are being jerks and we deserve better imo.
No, I don't want her back in the state she is in. What I'd like is for her to agree to actually work on the M before ditching it and see.
My DB Coach points out that working out the D, especially if you can handle a lot of the negotiating yourself, a DB opportunity. There are opportunities to repair during disagreements. There are opportunities to build some emotional bonding. And, if you can work well on this most difficult thing your R will face, that can have a profound impact on the WAS.
Still, you just don't know until it plays out. You do the best you can.
I'm better on the being punched in the gut yesterday. We actually may have to put off our talk until next weekend because of some things that have come up. But no matter when, there will be lots of staying calm, trying to stay solution-focused, opportunities to employ some humor to lighten tense moments, and work together to solve thorny problems. Getting to that frame of mind took some work, but I'm ready for it.
You should have seen us today on tweeking the the parenting schedule. Both of us bending over to be flexible and make things work. Recognizing that the R and the other's needs were more important that getting some kind of advantage. Still not enough to repair the R, as we have always tended to work well together, and that hasn't been enough so far. But still, we are improving even on that.
In the meantime, we need to remember that we are grieving a huge loss, and that gets entangled w/ moments of hope and hurt and frustration. So, it is not a linear process. Embracing the grief and mourning the M when it strikes is just as important, if not more, to efforts to repair the M, at least at this time. So, I'm trying not to push the grief away when it arises in the last couple days.
You are a wise man asitis, a wise man.
Stay strong brother. Your DB coach is right but that is a tough tough road to walk. It's like hoping if you're good with your executioners as their walking you to the gallows that they'll have a change of heart. Except with D, especially with kids, their is an afterlife.
You're smart to realize that this is hurtful As, for her as well. So you're both going to be a bit triggered. It's only natural. Even leading up to it for the next two weeks, you'll probably find yourself a bit more on edge. Be ok with that.
I echo Mutatio, you're a wise man. Stay true to what you know and your highest self and you'll get through this. Don't let fear mess with you.
You got this.
PP
Hang in there Asitis! Your wise words have helped so many of these boards. Be strong!
So, W was over to help do some of the yard mowing. She was wearing something snug. She really has gained a lot of weight for her. I knew from seeing her regularly that she had gained some weight, but didn't realize how much until this outfit which didn't hide. I don't think I've ever seen her with a gut and flabby in the rear. She was a little soft when I first met her & she was in another long-term R. But ever since I've been with her, if she puts on a couple pounds, she cuts back on deserts and snacks, and takes care of it. I think it is partly cooking for herself, partly single parenting half time (you get overwhelmed more easily and opt for the quick & unhealthy in experience), and drinking more than she ever did.
She still can dress to conceal, and isn't really that overweight, just compared to all the rest of the time we've been together. Tt really is sad to see herself let herself go. Neither of us can take as good care of ourselves as we did when we lived together and were able to cooperate better on parenting & chores. Definitely some depression going on.
She has also been looking older lately. It's like she has aged about 5 years in the last year. It's not the appearance change that bothers me. H*ll, I may never get to see her naked again, or any other fun stuff. It is that it is a sign of the toll all of this is taking on her is difficult to watch.
W & I talked a bit today about her being overwhelmed about taking care of the house while only living in it half time, and how even if we were not D'ing we need to get out of the house now that I'm so busy that upkeep is an issue. I agreed with her (I've always disliked this house, and only agreed because she really wanted to get the property hunt done before S3 was born). I asked if she was planning to try to buy a house or move into an apartment after we sell & D. She said house. I said that I would too, but don't see how financially it will be workable.
She replied that we will be splitting the net proceeds of the house, and I reminded her that there are a lot of issues w/ the house that will need dealt w/ to market it, that these will cost some real $, and that after taking out commissions, we may have less than she things. And that our income levels may prove difficult to get enough of a mortgage to buy right away. She looked surprised by this and slightly troubled. I think she thinks that she'll just financially jettison me and be able to downscale a bit and be back in a home at least as nice as the current. I really think she thinks that she won't be paying spousal and child support for several years while I get my new career started. Very sad wake up coming.
I said we'd figure out how to get all the things that needs doing done, so don't worry. Reminded her that we've worked very well on making the S work, and we'll do the same w/ the D.
I had a very good weekend w/ the boys, with lots of social connecting. Playgroup forming w/ like-minded families that the boys love, making some new friends & professional contacts at S3's friend's b-day party, integrating into my church network at our annual retreat. I'm just really firing on all cylinders, and W is just idling. I think she thinks my being a decent, caring partner is a sign that I'm trying to win her back, rather than just me being me. She wants the split, but I'm the one moving on to a full life, while she wrestles with depression and not facing her issues because she mistakenly sees me as the main thing that needs changing in her life.
There is still a good dose of anger & resentment on her part, and the best thing I can do for her is to keep on my path and let her see that I'm not longer available as an excuse for facing her own issues.
The last paragraph says it all. I feel the same way. It seems like the weekend was good for all of you.
Does your wife have this deep wisdom that you have?
If so are her emotions clouding her intellect?
I mean no disrespect. You are a very wise man and she is educated, so where is her disconnect?
My W is an intellectual peer. That is part of what attracted us to each other. She has insights, but she really seems to be struggling with the fog of giving me too much power and credit for her issues, and an unwillingness to do the hard work necessary to turn the pain & suffering into depth & growth.
Those two are interrelated, as it is really hard to recognize the need for hard work on oneself when you are still blaming another for much of your pain & suffering. I wish I could say that I feel nothing but compassion for her struggles, but I'm not always that good. It still pains me to see how she is rationalizing not making the real effort to repair things for the sake of our kids. I know she & her IC are doing the it is better for kids to not stay w/ a loveless M, but it is a loveless M in large part because they've rationalized the easy way out.
I can't say any of this to her, as she is afraid of me using my intellect to convince her that her needs and wants are not legitimate (she claims that I did this all the time in the past - which I'm sure is in large part true), but it makes it impossible when you actually have something compelling to bring it up. Even if you try to carefully couch it in understanding and do lots of listening and validating, it will take a while yet (if ever) for her to move beyond that block. And, in these sitch'es, we know that you can't use arguments to win the day.
Sad & frustrating, as you all know more than well enough.
Wow Asitis,
you have put in writing things that i have been feeling and thinking for a while. I agree in my sitch that if i am acting caring and positive that my W believes it is me trying to win her back or make her rethink. I am just being a good person and would be the same with anyone.
I also have had to stop talking about the reality of the separation as she also sees that as me trying manipulate the situation and make her think she needs me. Not true, but if she is planning on this moving forward so bad, she knows my intentions are to keep the house and a minimum of 50% custody, why hasnt she even looked into finding more employment? right now she teaches a few dance classes a week. she is going to need a lot more work than that even with any spousal support she gets.
Good detachment. I read somewhere and keep reminding myself that learning to detach requires courage, the courage to let the ones we love learn from their own mistakes and accept the natural consequences of their actions without us trying to rescue them. It is so hard to do, especially when you just KNOW that you are right, but it is what we have to do. Sometimes being right, is not the right thing for a relationship.
Your W will learn some financial lessons the hard way.
Also, as a 46 year old woman who has a ton of friends who are all women in our 40's, I will tell you that very abruptly for me at age 41-42, for my friends mostly anywhere from 40-45, women's bodies change and suddenly we put on weight very easily. I gained 20 lbs in a year and I did not change my eating habits, although I was in extreme stress due to my daughter's rapid mental and physical deterioration so maybe it was stress hormones for me. Many (not all) of my friends who never had a weight problem suddenly have to watch every single bite now that we are in our 40's. OK, we might be drinking a lot more wine than we admit to, so there is that. BD solved that one for me though- I lost 25 lbs in less than 3 months on the "ILYBINILWY" diet.
It sounds like you are doing better than W, wonder if she notices.
Some good humor from photoka. ILYBINILWY diet. Love it. I lost about 20 pounds on that one too. Releasing those we love to the consequences of their choices is called tough love. She will learn, whether or not reconciliation occurs. But she is setting herself up to be a very unhappy person.
I'm sure stress is an issue, but she is drinking a lot more, and that couple hundred calories every day or two adds up quickly. It is striking how much older she just looks to me at times. I know that stress and depression can affect the way a person appears without it being a permanent change, but it also can accelerate aging.
I'm definitely doing better than W, although I suspect she believes otherwise, as she likely feels she has moved on and I'm still clinging to the M. Not entirely true, but as I said, my being kind, generous, and pleasant is just being me, but I'll bet she interprets it as still stuck on winning her back. Very sad in a way, and more reason why detachment and both of us maintaining boundaries & space is important.
So, it is time for Part 5.
as_it_is - my adventure continues (part 5)