How do I link first thread?
First thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2594460#Post2594460Starting my second post and I really wanted to thank everyone on here for your stories and advice and comfort. It truly has been my savior in getting through a very difficult and confusing time. I am so grateful for the insights of so many wise, spiritual, and generous individuals. It is so amazing that we can learn through each other's experiences and help one another.
Love Julie
Thanks job.
Had really confusing and frustrating conversation with husband today. He called about kids school but he also initiated conversation regarding relationship stuff, but i am confused about what it meant. I was pretty mad when he called so my tone was kind of tense. I did not validate at all. Can't remember exact details but some parts that stood out included, him commenting on how my family is cold to him now when he drops off kids. He even said that this will potentially affect reconciliation and that they should not be involved (my family is never confrontational but I am sure they are not going to be friendly with him). I took that as a threat or mind game and defended them by saying he should try to see it from their perspective. They are now obligated to help/support his family. He asked me if I understand why we are here in this situation now. I am pretty sure his underlying message was saying that "you are the reason we are here in this situation" but I said yes. I also mentioned that a family member believes he is misleading me and he said that this has been very hard for him and he doesn't want to make wrong decision. If we try to reconcile and it does not work it will make things more confusing and worse on kids. He also said if I think he is misleading me then I could speed decision up and take matter into my own hands (didn't say it but indicated pursue divorce). He also recommended that I get a free consultation from attorney so I could understand financial aspects better. Why would he tell me that? He said he has not consulted with attorney. Anyway end of coversation it was agreed upon that neither of us wanted to rush into any decision. I did say I did not want to divorce but would understand if that was his decision. Confused because why would he care about my family? He never really went out of his way to converse with them anyway. And why say that would affect reconciliation? He's the one that called and brought topic up, I was just giving space.
Julie
Believe nothing of what he says. WH has revealed his hand.
He is telling you to get L, go get good L. Keep those cards close to your chest, if you don't he can turn round and say "I told you".
The double bluff, long con. Discussing your family is button pushing distraction. And actually in essence you haven't really anything agreed, if there is no ink, there is no agreement.
V
Julie
Believe nothing of what he says. WH has revealed his hand.
I guess I kept trying to believe what I wanted to believe. Another poster said mentally he is already divorced. Everyone was telling me he was trying to drag this out so he doesn't have to pay child support? Or just because he tends to procrastinate. I dont want to believe it. I want to believe him and that perhaps he was considering reconciliation and that taking his time on a decision is typical of his personality
He is telling you to get L, go get good L. Keep those cards close to your chest, if you don't he can turn round and say "I told you".
this is so bizarre to me. Why would he suggest I go? Wouldn't it be better for him if I did not know my rights? (I did receive some advice and am aware that once I go to court I will do ok. I was advised by my cousin who is attorney that court system would get nasty and no chance of reconciliation after we go through it. Mediation was not recommended for me)
The double bluff, long con. Discussing your family is button pushing distraction. And actually in essence you haven't really anything agreed, if there is no ink, there is no agreement.
double bluff long con...do you mean that he fears me using the court system? V. Based on what I have said do you feel that he is stringing me along? I debating between 2 extremes....1. He is confused and hurt and needs time to forgive. Deep down he does not want to divorce but is just so stressed and depressed. Vs 2. He has had this planned out for a while, and is saving money right now and he has been looking for excuses and just waiting for me to slip up....more on how I did mess up this next post.
V
I basically lost it today. I have been mad about everything especially the finances so I asked him for money for the kids. He wanted an itemized list to justify what he should give me for the kids and I disagreed. I was asking for less then what courts would give me (goes by percentage of salary) he was getting angry and I basically blew up, screaming at him on the phone. (This is something I just do not do. I can't even count on 1 hand the times I have screamed like this. Most people are pretty impressed by my level of patience in general). I was screaming about the fact that he left us and has not provided for the kids, and that he is stringing me along and I really don't care whether we reconcile or not. I was screaming that the courts would give me a lot more then I was asking him for. He started saying that Im the one that pushed him out that he never abandoned us. (Not true at all) I called him a dead beat dad he told me if I pursue child support in court he is going to pursue a custody battle. It got really ugly. Of course he told me he had been having hope for reconciliation but that is gone now. He told me all I ever did in past was criticize him. Things kind of softened by end of argument. He told me how he hasn't been sleeping at all these past few months and I told him how devastating it has been for me. I ended up telling him I still have hope and want reconciliation. He said he is not going to say anything at this point until his emotions are settled. I emailed him letters expressing how I have missed him and why we should work on it. Basically I just did everything wrong. I sabatoged any chance we might have had.
I feel like this is how things have been going...I get mad because of something he did or didn't do and then I react to it and it makes me look like the bad guy and justifies him leaving.
Julie
Believe nothing of what he says. WH has revealed his hand.
Is there any chance that he is not WH? I know realistically no one can really answer this. It seems so obvious and would Make sense. I wish I could find out because then I would go full extent and move on. He denies. But of course he would. This is truly the worst thing a partner could do to me. I think he could be and would never admit it because he knows I would not settle civilly. But then why drag it on? To pay as little as possible and keep things status quo?nobody thinks their partner would do this, so why would mine be any different. The only fear he seems to have right now is the courts. Could it ever be true that he really truly is in deep turmoil and stress, not sleeping because he is debating reconciliation. Is that too far fetched? I need proof. I just want to know the truth.
Julie
You can protect yourself and your children. Consulting an L means you know your rights from an independent third party. That doesn't mean you need to use an L.
From that which you say you have no Intel to know either way about WH and his activities.
He isn't living with you and resents paying for his children, that's enough for me, children come first. And just because he says X orY, custody, payments etc none of that is agreed. It's not agreed until the ink is dry.
Again it's counter intuitive and even if you could file without L why would you?
If he is going D, he's firing you as his W.
By the long con, I mean that WH is seeking maximum resources for WH.
None thinks their partner would do any of these things until they do. I know you want to know the truth but you may never have it. There may be uncertainty for a long while until it all unfolds.
You may have to forgive yourself and move on managing your life and your children.
Your WH is behaving like many do, I may come back, you spoiled it, I may make this very nasty if you don't do that which I say etc. then YOU soothe him, YOU give him the attention he needs. YOU feel guilty and ashamed because like me you have reacted as a screaming banshee. (that's what I call my shameful and awful phase). I managed to escape it because it didn't work for me. It gave control to my WH.
I think you are getting angry a little, which from my perspective is good it will unstick you.
As far as I can see getting good advice can only help you. Knowing exactly what the position on your children is can't be a bad thing can it? Go do it.
If you would like to see similar advice being given to another poster here, read Eric's current thread, if you think Eric go get independent advice then see that for yourself.
Your sitch is already open now, close it down. It's also counter intuitive but having an L in the pocket means you can add distance to your position.
V
It's possible he's stringing you along but you never really know. For some reason the impression I got from reading some of those posts is that D is what he's leaning towards but he's not completely sure. Like he wants you to pull the trigger on it so he can feel less guilty. Regardless of what he's thinking or really doing reacting to him is something you can work on. You know it doesn't help anything in the long run one way or another.
Hello
Don't want to get into too much detail regarding L as of now. (I worry after reading matts post. I doubt it but you never know) basically once I go through courts my husband will have to provide financially. I also know this will mean no chance for reconciliation. I worry that it will mean winning a battle to lose a war. The better long term outcome for my kids is reconciliation vs a couple of months of child support? I do wonder if he is forcing my hand so he does not have to pull trigger. I know he is accumulating max resources for himself right now. He has said so. This past year he has not contributed anything. We were living with relatives. We have always kept separate accounts so I have no idea what he has. someone remarked to us that we lived so separately there really was no true healthy marriage ever. he said he will pay itemized list. Does not want to pay for things he didn't agree to like karate lessons for kids because it's not in his budget. In court this would not matter he would have to pay. It would be easier to move on if things were in ink, but at that point I worry no chance of reconciliation. We had been getting friendlier torwards each other until I asked about money. He sees things so narcissitically. (Although I am constantly questioning if it is me that is being stubborn). He truly sees himself as a wonderful father and husband that has made immense sacrifices for his family. He sees me as verbally abusive and someone that has only showed him negativity. Sometimes I believe that. Sometimes I feel that I was reacting to someone that has always been very selfish. (If I get the courage I will post on that later) We always battled about things like this in the past, I felt like he was stubborn and he felt that way about me. Now the difference is that he wants out of marriage so I have lost bargaining power. I am angry because to me kids come first. I am angry because he is twisting the situation around. I am not trusting my opinions anymore because I recognize that I could be the selfish one perhaps trying to control and abuse.
I basically lost it today. I have been mad about everything especially the finances so I asked him for money for the kids. He wanted an itemized list to justify what he should give me for the kids and I disagreed. I was asking for less then what courts would give me (goes by percentage of salary) he was getting angry and I basically blew up, screaming at him on the phone. (This is something I just do not do. I can't even count on 1 hand the times I have screamed like this. Most people are pretty impressed by my level of patience in general). I was screaming about the fact that he left us and has not provided for the kids, and that he is stringing me along and I really don't care whether we reconcile or not. I was screaming that the courts would give me a lot more then I was asking him for. He started saying that Im the one that pushed him out that he never abandoned us. (Not true at all) I called him a dead beat dad he told me if I pursue child support in court he is going to pursue a custody battle. It got really ugly. Of course he told me he had been having hope for reconciliation but that is gone now. He told me all I ever did in past was criticize him. Things kind of softened by end of argument. He told me how he hasn't been sleeping at all these past few months and I told him how devastating it has been for me. I ended up telling him I still have hope and want reconciliation. He said he is not going to say anything at this point until his emotions are settled. I emailed him letters expressing how I have missed him and why we should work on it. Basically I just did everything wrong. I sabatoged any chance we might have had.
Your H and sitch sounds a lot like mine, but we don't have children. The WH does not want to be pushed or challenged. One thing I have done a 180 with is finding my voice. One of the issues I brought to our M was not speaking up more for fear of not being loved and abandoned. I have for the most part done this in a calm and confident way. Yes, I did get emotional and raise my voice a few times, but that is to be expected. It was when I confronted him about having OW in our home back in May that he pulled out the same line about how he was trying to work on R, but now there was no way forward because I confronted. He did this again in July during a similar discussion. That time he pulled out the word D. I think what I was saying was bringing out his guilt about A and he wanted to avoid those feelings at all costs.
I think your H is using that same card to get you to stop pushing on child support. If you do this, I will not reconcile. Don't let him control you with that. My H started doing that this week to try to keep me from hiring L. He threatened that if I did, that he would go after more of my money. In my case, I was the primary bread winner our entire M since H was in school for all of it. Well you know what? I hired an L and filed. If nothing else, I will end the end have earned some respect and gained some confidence back. I'm not saying this is where you are at and need to file. You don't need to file to hold your own. In my case, it was just the best way forward with my sitch. The OW in my home on multiple occasions was my line.
I think there is a chance your H might be setting the sitch up so that you file so he does not look like the bad guy. I believe that is what was happpened in my case with my M. He says he has no guilt, but I don't believe him. Well, he got what he wanted. Again, I believe this was strongly influenced by A and might have been different if he was not in the fog. There has to be guilt involved in walking away from your children, so if you pull the plug he probably believes some if it is off him. Regardless if you file, he is the one that walked away and choose not to fight for his M. If it turns to filing, you are just protecting yourself and your children.
Stay strong. I can't even imagine having children to worry about in all of this.
It's possible he's stringing you along but you never really know. For some reason the impression I got from reading some of those posts is that D is what he's leaning towards but he's not completely sure. Like he wants you to pull the trigger on it so he can feel less guilty. Regardless of what he's thinking or really doing reacting to him is something you can work on. You know it doesn't help anything in the long run one way or another.
Yes. I think you are right. He was leaning to divorce but with a little bit of hope and just waiting for me to make a mistake so he can know he is doing the right thing. I feel horrible now. I could not control my emotions and just sabatoged myself. I could not see past my own feelings. I over analyzed throughout the whole process. My fears, lack of patience and insecurity destroyed any chance. I am devastated. I know now that he is completely done. The things I yelled at him were so critical of him that it just proved him right.
Bt13
I only read your 1st and last threads but will try to catch up. It is so sad when I read about everyone's hope in the beginning and then learn how sadly things end up. I feel like you had every right to get emotional regarding OW. Who wouldn't?
In my case I feel like I look like the good guy and he looks like the villain for not paying child support. But he feels like he tried so hard to make our relationship work years ago and now he feels like he is losing everything when I was the one that caused him so much pain by neglecting him and criticizing him all those years. He told me "I will lose everything but I can't survive in this marriage". My screaming all those negative comments to him reinforced to him how critical and unappreciative of him I am. (Telling him he abandoned us, and wasn't a man or provider, etc). I am sick to my stomach that this has confirmed it for him. (I have no doubts he is done) and now all I can do is let him go but I am so mad at myself,
I know what you mean. I was just reading an article about how every man's greatest fear is feeling like a disappointment and failure to their W. I know I have made my H feel like that in many ways and it makes me sad to realize that. I never meant that to be the case and have lots of regrets for not focusing on being grateful for the positives and showing my H my gratitude. I know that DB says to not focus on the A and to let it go for the time being, but it was just too hard. I am sure my words only reinforced my disappointment with H.
None of this is easy, so please be kind to yourself. It is good that you recognize your faults and mistakes. However, it takes two people for an M to get to this point. Just try and focus on improving yourself. You still have the gift of time and no one mistake will ruin all of your progress. No one is perfect. Just get back to GAL and keep pressing forward!!
Some WH are a great disappointment to their W and it's valid to truth dart with it!
V
Some WH are a great disappointment to their W and it's valid to truth dart with it!
V
My mom's and my best friends sentiments as well! In the past I never feared criticizing when I felt something was unfair and maybe I took it too liberally. But now the relationship has turned into something very unhealthy. I am sick over the thoughts of how this will go when it comes to litigation. He was at one time my best friend and now we will become worst enemies. I don't know how to keep this civil. Should I suggest counseling to get through Co parenting and the legal process? Has anyone done that?
I have read others on here going through coparenting counseling and it seems like it would be a good idea. Whether or not your an will go for it is another story. I suggested it to H for us as well so that we can try and get through this as best as possible. Seems there is much to come to terms with in D. He is so against counseling that he just ignored the suggestion. Maybe you will have better luck.
Talked to husband other day and in beginning of conversation he basically said we should just move on. He said he's concerned with how limbo is affecting me, and it's unhealthy for both of us. Said I really hurt him with what I said. Acknowledged that he has said a lot of hurtful things to me. Started asking if i really thought there were a lot of other guys out there better then him. He said he does not like my insecurity and lack of ambition (I have a doctorate in my field but I do not work full time in order to be home with kids). I basically did everything I should not have done... Debated all the reasons families should stay together, etc. however the weird thing is my argument seemed to soften him. Our conversation ended with him saying he needed time and we both need space. I agreed to use space to grow. Weird thing is the next day he said he would pick the boys up early to take them camping overnight with his family. He actually was up at 7 am. (This has never ever happened before). When he dropped them off he helped with a chore and offered to pay an old bill of mine that came in mail. I don't know what to make of this. Any insight? I am suspicious that he might be doing this because he is afraid I will pursue child support or maybe he is thinking that he needs to change his ways in case there is legal issues and a custody battle (based on the blow up). If I look at it more optimistically, Perhaps he wants me to make changes and is showing that he can too? Any way there was 1 day I felt great thinking it wasn't truly over and then today I am consumed with anger that he is not paying child support and because he never took responsibility for the kids. Any insight?
Julie
I still believe it's the long con.
Get great L advice.
V
Julie
I still believe it's the long con.
Get great L advice.
V
L agrees with you too! Not sure if divorce busting is giving me false hope. I'm just being thick headed thinking we can work on it. When I actually talk to my husband about relationship I feel some hope, but i could just be in denial. When I saw his mom she hugged me and told me she loves me looking as if she wants to cry and I realized it's because she know her son does not want to reconcile. It's frustrating because I know if we were not living with relatives we would have been able to work it out and it would not have been so easy for him to just pack up and leave. Had 2nd talk with coach yesterday and will post about later. (We are allowed to on the forums right?)
Julie,
Divorce busting is for you to grow and learn. If you let go of the outcome with WH, this is for you. If what you are doing isn't working for you then change it.
I am pleased you have L, very relieved in fact that you have some great support IRL.
Please stop mind reading, it's not helping you. Detach and work on you for you.
There is no reason why you can't discuss your coach, some posters find it helpful to do so, others mull for a while.
V
I am lucky that I have great support. I have a best friend that instinctually gets the whole DB philosphy of never pursuing etc. She even advises me on what it is I want (reconciliation) and what I'm doing wrong, and then on what she thinks is best (to move on) .
My problem is that I can analyze and understand what I should and should not be doing, but I can't seem to control myself emotionally.
The DB coach was very calming. She told me she feels that my husband is struggling because he still feels connected. She does not feel that my outburst was unrepairable. But told me I absolutely have to stop the pursuing behaviors because it just creates resistance. ( I know this but then it's like this intense anxiety takes over) she said I have to avoid letting fear take over. She said fear will drain me And I have to stop feeding it. She said I have to choose faith and hope. (This is difficult for me because I have always been the one to expect the worst and in the past I have actually made things worse this way. I acknowledge that but I always seem to succumb to the emotion of the moment. Or let it fester until I cannot control it. Also my family has been angry as well and understandably so they can really add fuel to the fire) I am afraid to feel hope cause maybe it could lead to more hurt but then again I am losing it so how much worse would hope be? Maybe hope would put me in A better mood to have fun and do things for myself and children. After our last conversation I was just so happy that we weren't definatly divorcing I was in a great mood and planning on doing all these positive things for myself. Had a great time with the kids. Then the next day I was depressed again. (Sad thing is that my good mood was not independent of husbands response)
As homework she wants me to create a list of positive things that come from husband with a date. And to start a list of new ways I respond to any situations that occur between myself and husband and compare them to how I would have responded in the past. I think this will be helpful because it will enable me to focus on positives and perhaps limit criticism.
Any techniques that you have found successful in controlling anxiety and preventing those pursuing behaviors and in controlling angry, resentful arguments and tones (asking him if he loves me, telling him I miss him, asking if there is another woman, picking fights when angry) .... I was thinking I could maybe Start by getting through each day and aim for three days without these behaviors and then it should be easier to get through each week (used this technique when I detoxed from sugar and carbs and then i no longer craved them and then eventually became repulsed by them) I have definatly been my own worst enemy
Julie stop yelling at him and getting angry. If you want a shot at reconcilling read Sandis thread on the 37 rules and the wayward spouse. Have you read divorce busting yet?
I too was once a WAH before I became an LBS (karma). What i remembered is that the more she yelled and demanded of me the more i wanted to run. And ran I did. and never came back.
So take a deep breath. Change the things you dont like about you. Post often and lets us know how you doing daily. Ok
Julie stop yelling at him and getting angry. If you want a shot at reconcilling read Sandis thread on the 37 rules and the wayward spouse. Have you read divorce busting yet?
I too was once a WAH before I became an LBS (karma). What i remembered is that the more she yelled and demanded of me the more i wanted to run. And ran I did. and never came back.
So take a deep breath. Change the things you dont like about you. Post often and lets us know how you doing daily. Ok
Thank you Rick,
I am going to post daily because posting might prevent me from calling husband and getting emotional.
I just skimmed through your first thread and will try to read more. How were you at first WAS and then LBS? When you say you ran did you physically separate and then return home and then became LBS?
I was M very young and began an A with a women who I later married and later divorced me. The reason I came to the boards over 4 years ago. The WAS will use anything negative that you do or say to rationalize their behavior. When you yell, chase him you make it easy for him to not want to come back.
I know that as a new comer you probably in a lot pain and want all of this to go away. The way most of us did thid was by coming here often and posting. But at the same time you have to take care of yourself. Look good and happy always. Go out if you can. Workout and look your best.
The hardest part of all this is not knowing how I am going to feel from day to day or even hour to hour. I am so angry and then remorseful and occasionally numb. Today I woke up feeling hopeless like everything is too late. I am remembering all the horrible ways I contributed to the demise of our relationship. I am remembering all the good things he did when he loved me. It's been almost 2 months since he physically left and a long period of him just being emotionally gone. It is not getting any easier. I know I need to detach but have not. He feels like he tried and tried in past and has just given up. He feels like our relationship was unbearable for him. I want desperately to work on it but in an apt away from relatives. If he would just give our family a chance.
All normal reactions of grieving. If you have time read kubler ross stages of grieving. And under MLC read Erics thread about fear. The fear of the unknown will consume you. It did it to me. Dont borrow trouble from the future.
He needs to see changes in you that are long lasting and consistent. not to win him back but because it is the right thing to do for you.
And you cant tell him you have to show change by your actions
Erics thread is title the star inside you under MLC.
I did read DR recently and DB a while ago and I do read sandis rules. I follow them inconsistently because my emotions take over. Not good I know. I'm gonna try to get through 1 day at a time, continue to post, and keep a journal as the coach suggested and hopefully that will make it easier to avoid these very unappealing behaviors. I will have to check out Erics thread.
Today my husband did early morning errand that was beneficial for kids. (He called me early to get info about it) He has also been leaving work early to spend time with kids when I am at work (this is completely opposite of anything he ever did before and I am completely thrown off. It's like he's doing a 180 and I don't know his motivation. Is he thinking he wants to look good for court? Is he trying to improve himself for next relationship which is unfair because if he had made this commitment we would have gotten along so much better. Is he doing it for kids? That would be nice.is he maybe showing me he is trying to do his part to work on us? If I belive this I might be setting myself up for dissapointment. I know I have to stop mind reading. My anxiety is destroying me. I have to cope better.
My fear has basically destroyed all of our reconciliation attempts. When we started counseling, I became so insecure because husband wanted counseling I refused to see that he was trying. Instead I became obsessed with the possibility of him leaving us. I became clingy and constantly sought reassurances. He would ask fo space and I would just seek relationship talks. This evolved to him wanting a separation ( due to continued fights regarding his detachment and work). So he could get space. At first it was with the goal of reconciliation. My fear made me imagine worst case scenarios, (that there was OW, that he was trying to set me up for big legal loss, alcoholism, drugs, etc) and now he almost pulled the plug the other day.... Even right now my fear is telling me that the only reason he is not filing is he does not want to pay child support, or he wants me to have time to get adjusted mentally etc.
I know I sound like I should be on meds. And in my own defense he is not the best communicator. (Our counselor said that to me once about him.) or maybe I'm not hearing what I don't like. I have to remember what DB coach said. Approach this with faith and positivity. Maybe this is negativity breeds negativity but if I focus on the positive I can create positive outcomes.
Good news is 4 days went by without me pursuing.
Was thinking about the issue of anger and how it makes us feel better, less hurt, and less at fault for the marital demise.
I am confused by my own situation. So far my husband only seems to get angry when I try to discuss the relationship or when I bring up child support. If not we are able to maintain polite superficial conversation. Does that mean he is indifferent?
I am angry about the child support and am still debating what to do. We have always kept our finances separate. I worked a lot less hours after the kids were born. This means I accrued a lot less savings, pension etc.. He has been trying to push me to return to work full time this past year and refused to move out of my relatives house until I worked full time. (Logistically and financially impossible till the kids started school full time) I would try to explain this and his response was "other people do it, figure it out". I wanted to leave to work on our marriage cause I saw how unhealthy it was getting. He has been able to save when living with relatives because he had and continues to have no expenses. He earns 3 x my salary. I have not been able to save this past year because I figured he did the saving and I spent money on kids.
He has been gone 2 months and has given very little for the kids. Although he has been making more efforts to spend time with them He wants an itemized list of kids expenses instead of child support and figures that because of my current living arrangement I don't need that extra money. He has actually said "go to work like everyone else". This is so humiliating because I have always been a very hard worker. I worked since I was 16. I worked throughout my schooling. I actually love my job and I find it a lot easier then being home with the children. (Although having the opportunity to be home with them for the majority of time has been so fortunate and rewarding) The only reason I stopped was for the children, He has been and is currently able to save. I cannot.
I discussed this with db coach and I have had legal advice. I can go to court and file for child support. I will get this, but once I do, everything will be set in motion. I am pretty sure no chance of reconciliation if I file (better option long term for our family). But then again, a guy not paying child support is pretty deplorable. Can anybody analyze this for me? His salary is decent although he has always been pretty frugal when it comes to others (but he will never go without what I perceive as luxuries for himself) DB coach said he could be trying to punish me. Or maybe he has a distorted sense of entitlement? She doesn't know where this is coming from. But agrees it is humiliating for me and not right. The fact that he did not want to leave my relatives house earlier could be calculating because he knew he wanted divorce or it could be that he really wanted to improve our families financial situation by saving. I tend to not believe it was calculating because living in the house was absolute torture for him and he seemed to have 1 stress piled upon the next, (job, serious health issues, car trouble, our marital issues) he could be trying to buy time, for legal reasons.
If I don't file there might be chance that by continuing to give time and space and working on my self there might be chance for reconciliation. As of now, I don't believe there is OW. Like me, He comes from a supportive and hardworking family and background in which you work on your issues. There has never been infidelity or divorce in either of our families (extended included). He has a hard time handling a lot on his plate so I don't know if he would go there with OW. (I know I could be i denial as well as) DB coach thought an itemized list would have been the right way to go but could not recommend it when I told her about legal precedents it might set. She suggested I find another approach to discuss it and we went over soft beginnings and endings when communicating etc. I still don't think that would work because his answer is give me itemized list with receipts...
This issue fills me with so much anger. I feel like I am in the right, but will have to put it on hold for a couple of months for sake of amicable relations and possibility for R. But it comes down to trust. I could be kicking myself in a couple of months if there is OW or he really has moved on. That is why limbo is so hard. If there is no chance I will do what's best for me and kids no. If there is chance I would rather lose the battle to win peace. He does not know the answer of whether he want R so what do I do. Financially I can survive but it's a matter of fairness. My family is supporting his responsibility for gods sake and he doesn't see that!
Of course he should be paying child support. It's the law. But me pursuing will definatly ruin all chances of R. he truly does not see this as being manipulative or wrong. In fact he is surprised that my family is upset with him and really thinks this is all about how I treated him, and my anxiety. How do I get him to see my point of view. Why is this a problem for him, but not for so many other fathers on this board? If I was the one that left him for OM I would understand it. But he left me. He knows I want to work on relationship,
I am reading what everyone is going through in the divorce process and aftermath and I just want to avoid divorce so badly. I don't want to live with the vindictiveness and resentment and lost child care time. I want to do anything to make it work but I feel like this child support issue is a check mate for him....
any chess experts?
Julie,
Having read your situation, your H sounds anything but indifferent to me. Just guessing about this, but my guess but maybe he is angry because he knows deep down what he is doing is wrong??
My H is being very vindictive with how we are going to split up things in D. In my state it is pretty much 50/50 unless we are able to negotiate otherwise. He has made it very clear he plans on taking what he is "entitled" to down to the penny. For example, the other day I mentioned that I assume he will keep his car and I will keep mine. Yeah, not so much. He brought up that there is a few thousand dollar difference in value in my car and plans to go after it. He is doing this about EVERYTHING. I have been trying to figure out his mentality on this. This is coming from a man who has never held a fulltime job since we have been married, has been in school for 11 out of 13 years, and had one year of employment. I do not want to D, he does. I did not have A, he did. I have worked my butt off for everything we have in assets. The only thing I came come up with to rationalize this is that if allows me to keep anything over 50% it would be somehow admitting to guilt?? I have no idea, but I have lots of resentment and anger building from this one aspect of my sitch. Does not bode well for keeping emotions in check.
Maybe if your H gives in on child support, he feels he is taking responsibility for where your M is and he is not willing to do that? It does not make any sense to me and it is flat out wrong. I can appreciate your anger. I am obviously not a therapist, but your H sounds like he might have some narcissism in him or maybe the WAS just starts to take on some of those traits to protect themselves and it starts to mimic narcissism. It sounds like yor H has little empathy or compassion, tons of self righteousness and selfishness, entitlement, etc. It is hard to reconcile such big changes in our spouses that seemingly happens overnight.
Yes. It's hard to come to terms with that irrationality. I sometimes view it as when he loved me in the past vs now..
Although there were many selfish behaviors in the past that I couldn't rationalize and led to many fights. But I know they could have been the result of me trying to control too much or perhaps not communicating with him effectively. In the past, If I had used soft words instead of demands, and given time I think he would have reacted differently. Instead we both wanted to be right and convince each other we were right instead of work on coming to solution.
Same thing occurring now. He feels like he is right (feels the father that worked full time suffers from current laws) and I feel like I am right for the reasons I stated above. Maybe in a couple of weeks I will try again using a softer approach and find something that works for both of us.
The problem is the legal precautions we both realistically have to take. Those definatly get in the way. Seems like it did for you as well.
I noticed how the legal advisors I talked to made my husband into the epitome of evil. The wording they used, and assumptions they took. Some of them were being pretty unfair and irrational as well in order to assist me. And they do make you feel entitled. Maybe your husbands legal advise made it easy for him to do that to you. Letting go of being in the right, letting of the "worldly goods", might help with the anger and resentment which will destroy your health and spirit. (I know I sound religious right now, but I'm not at all). In the long run he will be consumed with petty items, but if you can let it go you will be happy which is priceless.
That being said there is def narcissitic tendencies. But I often question my own perceptions.
Just stopping by to say that I hope you have a great LD weekend. Any good GAL planned with the kids or otherwise?
Just stopping by to say that I hope you have a great LD weekend. Any good GAL planned with the kids or otherwise?
Hi, funny I was just about to post. I have a lot of fun physical activities planned for the kids this weekend. I Never like to be at home, plus with boys you really need to get them out and keep them active as much as possible or they will just get destructive. I really am lucky because while they are exhausting they are so much fun and really keep me going 😊. I Hope you have great plans as well !
6 days and no pursuing behaviors! The documentation of our conversSations and my old response/new response has really been helpful. It has helped prevent me from making some very snide remarks and 1 desperate 1 as well. This is my 180 so far.
Next week when the boys Start school full time, I am going to try and pick up some per diem work. This is against legal advise, but honestly I do not want to exploit a system. It reminds me of people that go on disability when they do not need to. Not just a drain on society but it ends up psychologically affecting them as well. Plus it's good for me to try something a little different in my field.
Husband is throwing me off. Since my blow up and our post conversation that almost ended in him finalizing that he wants to move on, he has been making a lot of effort to be more involved with the kids. He is acting more friendly as well.
This can be because:
1. He had legal advise and was told to do things with the kids, make sure he shows his face at school functions, save ticket stubs, document etc.
2. He genuinely misses kids and wants to be part of their lives (although he really neglected them before so why all of a sudden)
3. Trying to appease me to avoid court and move torwards mediation
4. Try to prove that we are friendly and both in agreement to this separation and that divorcing is the best for all of us?????? This would alleviate a lot of guilt for him probably.
5. Could be baby steps?
Only time will tell
I am pretty sure no chance of reconciliation if I file (better option long term for our family). But then again, a guy not paying child support is pretty deplorable. Can anybody analyze this for me?
It's natural to think this way, but it's not a good compass to use. You cannot control what he does or doesn't do. You have to do what you know is right for your family.
It's possible that no matter what you do he never turns back.
It's possible that him experiencing consequences for his choices brings him to rock bottom much more quickly than if you enabled.
It's possible he does get pissed, but a year or two after the D sees his life isn't so hot.
So many ways for it to unfold, the best thing to do is detach, do what you believe you're supposed to do, and have faith that if you're the woman you believe you're supposed to be, things will work out for YOU regardless of how that looks.
I am pretty sure no chance of reconciliation if I file (better option long term for our family). But then again, a guy not paying child support is pretty deplorable. Can anybody analyze this for me?
It's natural to think this way, but it's not a good compass to use. You cannot control what he does or doesn't do. You have to do what you know is right for your family.
It's possible that no matter what you do he never turns back.
It's possible that him experiencing consequences for his choices brings him to rock bottom much more quickly than if you enabled.
It's possible he does get pissed, but a year or two after the D sees his life isn't so hot.
So many ways for it to unfold, the best thing to do is detach, do what you believe you're supposed to do, and have faith that if you're the woman you believe you're supposed to be, things will work out for YOU regardless of how that looks.
Thank you Zues, you have given a lot of good advice throughout this board (maybe one day you will write your own DR book
) and I am going to catch up with your threads
Its funny that you used the word "enable". I have always complained about his mom being a big time enabler (he admitted she was one as well ), but never thought of myself as one. I never thought of him as weak or someone that needs to hit rock bottom either. Instead I keep thinking of my own shortcomings.
The anger I feel over this issue is consuming me and makes it hard for me to empathise with husband. I am going to keep rereading your post (and others) regarding this issue. I know I can't let this go on too much longer. I can file for child support without filing for divorce. I just have to be ready to deal with those consequences as well.
It all comes down to having confidence and trust in my own perceptions. Because I have a lot of anxieties (I can convince myself I have certain diseases etc) i am often not sure if I am being rational or perceiving things realistically. It makes it so difficult to trust my decision making. I want to be fair but I don't want to be taken advantage of. I'm willing to give in if it means a better outcome for all involved (especially kids)
I have been faithful, and loyal and I never walked away. I never self medicated (can't even if I wanted to. I'm up very early with the kids). I remain a great mom. Rarely resorted to petty behaviors. I expressed my desire to reconcile. At least in the future I will have that to look back on.
Did you read the post on my thread (alligator love) about the "Outer Limits" episode? I know JUST what you mean. This is so emotionally extreme your mind can play tricks on you. That's why it's so important to go slowly, and to really reflect on core beliefs instead of feelings sometimes.
Thanks for the kind words. We're all on this road together, that's for sure.
I am posting right now to prevent me from contacting husband and asking him....
" why the sudden interest and increased contact regarding the kids? Why are you suddenly so agreeable and willing to wake up early for them? Is this what an attorney is advising you? (If that's the case it is so sad and pathetic) Are you trying to appease me so i don't push for what I'm entitled to? Are you suddenly in good mood because there is another woman?" He's acting the way I would have loved for him to be in the past but it's such a difference I don't trust it and it's making me question his motives. Before coming to these boards I would have called up asking about this. Right now all I can do is just go with it. I know I am asking questions there are no answers to. I know I have to detach.
Maybe this is what the WAS feels when the LBS does their 180s. The LBS really has to just be patient and continue to prove themselves despite initial distrust and anger.
You know going down a mind reading road isn't good for detachment or for anything really...but if I had to guess, it would be that he's trying to be a better dad.
I wasn't the dad pre-BD I am today, not even close. STBX asked me the same thing in judging and accusatory tones. All I could say was the truth: That before I had lived with them, and it was easy to take having kids in my life for granted. But having been moved out for a few months, knowing what it was like without my family, and knowing that if I didn't take swift and bold action I might lose them forever...well, that wasn't acceptable so I had to step it up.
So try not to mind read, and if you have to at least give him the benefit of the doubt. That's not because he deserves it, but because that's the type of person you might like to be.
I truly hope he's doing it for the kids and not for ulterior motives. I have been doing tons of vilifying, which is so unhealthy. (I actually was fantasizing about running into him today with another woman and her kids and how I would react and this became my reality for a little while...yes I know how crazy this sounds)
My family members tell me he has it too easy. He gets his independence and gets to see the kids when it's convenient for him. No financial obligations. Can do what he wAnts when he wants. I do not have this freedom. Between work and the kids I am exhausted. I hope that this is hard for him.
Despite all this I would rather be in my situation....
As of now my situation is a lot easier then most others on this board.
For me there really is no change. My husband had been so neglectful and detached, that once he left there was no adjustment period for any of us. Took the kids a week to even notice. We were living with relatives so it's not like I have to downsize. I paid all my own bills and most bills pertaining to kids so financially once I file for child support it only gets better.
My husband pointed this out to me as well. So if Divorce is actually a win for me, why does he think I'm so at fault? Isn't it obvious I had been getting the short end of the marriage stick for a while? Why is it so hard for me to detach?
9 days straight with no critical comments, asking for reassurances or pursuing behaviors. But it's been very difficult. Being rejected really hurts. I tell myself at least I'm not the one that has to look back and say im the one that ended it. Although he has proabably already committed to a hundred ways to justify it.
Funny, I can say the same thing about the end of my M.
STBX and I weren't talking for close to 6 months before BD. Not out of anger, but out of defeat. So it's not like separation changed much there.
From a 'win' perspective, my life will get better than THAT in many ways. I'll have more money, more freedom, the ability to interface with women that might actually like me, etc.
And, like you, I would never have walked, so I can at least know I didn't give in, and won't live with that guilt.
That all said, divorce is so horrible of a loss it sweeps over all of that. No matter how bad it was it was a marriage, and that was the foundation on which my life was built. No matter how many ways my life improves. And the loss was so great, not being 'at fault' for me would be like trying to console myself that I didn't light a fire that burned down my house with my family in it.
No matter how bad the M it could've improved, and likely would've improved, had we remained in it, and stopped being so stubborn in our own ways. It is a loss that I will not try to find a 'bright side' to.
I will, however, do my best to do what I should've been doing all along from this day forward. It won't undo what's been done, it's just the only thing I can do to avoid further damage to my children and myself. Through good decisions and appreciation for what we still have in our lives we find peace, and at times we're even blessed with relief and happiness.
Hoping some of those feelings come your way this week.
Zues,
Yes. Its the loss that is so horrible. In addition to the loss of a family unit, it's the loss of respect and trust for our partner. I understand that life is a constant state of change and we can't really rely on anything or anyone being there or remaining who they were or who we thought they were. Life is hard in general because nothing we have is permanent. We can lose anyone we love at any moment in time. (That's why I am always anxious because I understand this but haven't learned to accept this lol)
I read your last post in your alligator thread and was wondering if you were asking about screening tools to determine if a potential partner would stay committed to a marriage even when it hits rock bottom? How to avoid being hurt again? Very interesting question. especially when people and situations are in constant flux. Hopefully our new knowledge in human relationships and our own contributions will help prevent the problems we had in our first marriages.
My husband seemed so committed and stable and secure and trustworthy. He never lied (I still don't think he's lied but I'm afraid of trusting) and he was brought up Christian and has faith. Yet he is ready to end a marriage with a wife that is pretty stable (except for anxiety) has never betrayed him, stays in shape, works, and is a great mother, (although not the best at housework) and most of all a wife that is willing to change and work on her issues
I myself was not brought up with any religious background and I don't even know if I believe in a god, but I have never considered giving up on a marriage.
I think our marriage could have improved. To be honest I needed a wake up call like this to really get it and to be willing to put the work in. I think it's too late though. It's always a matter of timing. When he wanted to work on it I was consumed (with children, with resentment, with sleep deprivation) when I wanted to work on it he was consumed (financially, work, resentment, his car) now with this separation I feel like we are just distancing more and more.
Good luck to you. While I have not been able to catch up with all your threads as of yet, you seem so resilient and self reliant. I think the right future partner will be very lucky to be committed to you and will really end up appreciating your self described "issues".
Husband just came to pick up kids. He stayed a while and we made polite talk. It's so hard to keep the resentment out of my voice. Especially when I was up in the middle of the night convinced that there is another woman.
When I look at him and talk to him I don't think so though. While his friends are all alcoholics ( and many of them seem to be separating and divorcing) I know none of them were unfaithful. This issue kills me, because I place a high value on fidelity. I wanted so bad to ask again for the hundredth time if there is other woman. I know it would do no good but if there was I would move on.
I am proud of myself because I didn't go there today and hopefully I won't when he drops them off. It will ruin these past 9 days. I have been trying to approach this as an experiment...let's see if MWD's theory is true, The only way I will know is if I follow this and not contaminate the experiment with my needs for control, reassurance, security! This requires a bit of detachment, looking at it from outside of myself.
Men always want action! My husband would always say words mean nothing it is the actions that count. He was and is a horrible communicator. I would say if words mean nothing why have mine hurt you so much? Also actions can be so easily misinterpreted. (I don't know if he is being nicer and texting more because he wants to keep possibility for reconciliation open or because he has moved on and wants us to be amicable while co parenting) when I don't know how to interpret something I usually assume the worst and behave accordingly. But just words from him would clarify so much to me. I do know that words don't mean anything unless they are backed up with actions and that people can lie as well.
I know I know I have to detach. Not happening though, right now I am just attempting to fake detachment and that is hard!
it's only hours later and now I miss my husband so much and I regret so many ways that I behaved in the past. I was so immature, I could have done so many things differently, I took for granted that he would always love me. I worry right now because anyone he meets will be so much better then me the past few years. I wish he would give us a second chance. (BT13. Your right, anger can feel better then regret)
When I read some of the posts written by a lot of the husbands who were LB, I feel like my behavior was similar to the ways their wives were when their relationships hit rock bottom (at the time I felt overwhelmed with kids and fatigued and stressed) In fact I read a lot of "I almost became a WAH" I remember my husband telling me years ago "all you care about is what I do for you. That's all anyone cares about. What I can do for them" I felt horrible at the time, and expressed that this was not true. It was not true, but this is how he perceived things and I can see why he perceived things this way.... Because I never really showed him my appreciation. I just viewed it as a fight that we made up afterwards, but his needs were never addressed. Now my husband became the WAH. IF he had stayed, detached and emotionally unavailable would I have ended up leaving? I guess I will never know, I do know I tried this past year, but not in the right ways (giving him space, becoming needy)
I have expressed my desire to reconcile in texts. I hope my very cruel blow up did not permanently ruin things. (It very nearly did and quite possibly has) I don't think there is anything at this point that I can do but let him go and hope he chooses to work on us.
My 180s have been accepting his lateness without critisism and Stopping many snide remarks. I have limited contact with him right now. He has been initiating most texts and they pretty much concern the kids. I only initiate if I need something for the kids. Is this bad since his old comment was about him feeling used by me? He responds nicely if I send him a friendly text, but I don't know if I should do that too much? I have asked him in past to go on outings with me and kids and he has gone but has always said "I don't want to Mislead you this is about the kids and doing thing as a family". Should I stop this because he should know what it will be like if it does come to divorce or is it good to get the time together since we are physically separated and only see each other during drop offs/pick ups.
I'm sorry everyone, I know I'm being a bit of a poster hog. The writing out my thoughts really does help me though. I hope one day I will be able to support and help others as much as Everyone has helped me.
OK Juliw,
Suppose I accept what you say, about who you are and how you were in your M, what are the 180s?
How will you achieve those?
With or without H.
V
OK Juliw,
Suppose I accept what you say, about who you are and how you were in your M, what are the 180s?
How will you achieve those?
With or without H.
V
My 180s..
1. Stop asking for reassurances. It was controlling and annoying and broadcasted my
insecurities. Just because i keep asking , doesn't mean my husband would give me
the answer I wanted to hear. (Stopped for 9 days)
2. Showed my appreciation more. I always complained about what was not there instead
of appreciated what we had. (I have to recognize the good things and verbally
acknowledge them) I focused on what my husband was doing wrong instead of right.
(The journal my DB coach recommended is helping with this)
3. Stop the controlling behaviors. I Needed to accept my husband for who he was
instead of pushing him to do things he didn't want to do. I like to go places with the
kids and he didn't like to wake up early. I should have just accepted this and went out
in my own, instead of getting angry and using guilt trips so he would do what i want
when I wanted.
4. Communicate differently. Listen better, use softer words, validate. I misinterpret a lot
of what he says and does. I should have asked him to,explain what he means instead
of assuming he meant something and then becoming defensive and argumentative.
(Have a lot of trouble with this one)
5. Make time for myself to spend with friends. Since the birth of my sons 5 years ago I
went out with my friends possibly 2 x. This wasn't healthy. My husband encouraged
me to do so, but I wanted spare time to be family time.
6. Dress up more. With the kids I just didn't want to spend money on myself and didn't
feel like it mattered how I dressed anymore. ( just got a haircut in city and started
wearing makeup again and sexier clothes)
There is more, but I need to reflect and get some sleep.
it's only hours later and now I miss my husband so much and I regret so many ways that I behaved in the past. I was so immature, I could have done so many things differently, I took for granted that he would always love me. I worry right now because anyone he meets will be so much better then me the past few years. I wish he would give us a second chance. (BT13. Your right, anger can feel better then regret)
Try not to be too hard on yourself, Julie. We are all inperfect when it comes to love and marriage. The silver lining is by having this all happen is that you now have an opportunity to work on you and become a better person moving forward. Yes, anyone your H meets now will on the surface seem better because it will be in the early stages of infatuation, but that will soon wear off and he will quickly realize that person is not perfect either. By not doing the work to repair his first M, he is just preparing himself to run again.
Yes, when you let the anger go, the pain, hurt, and sorrow come flooding back to the surface. What I am realizing is that it is easy to want to go back to feeling anger to get rid of the pain, but it inhibits personal growth because you spend too much time focus on what the other person did wrong and not on improving ourselves. It is easy to do this when your spouse does stuff that leads to resentment. That is where detaching comes in, but easier said than done.
It does sound like you are doing better with you 180s. Keep up the great work!!
Julie when you are happy with your answers I have some further questions!
V
A couple more 180s...
1. Be more independent. I asked husband for too many things I could have done myself. Probably a combination of wanting his attention, laziness, insecurity. I justified it by saying I have to watch the kids, but really I could have figured it out. (This I have done out of necessity the past 6 months)
2. Clean more and be better organized. I love to read and exercise and (currently obsessing over these forums) but instead I should be doing more domestic stuff (something I hate)
11 days and no pursuing behaviors. Just staying detached. Kids started kindergarten yesterday. Husband came by to see them off and we were polite. He went out of his way to walk me to car. Conversation was about children. I was polite but distant (being warm and friendly is so unnatural right now). He called me later and was asking about how I felt regarding kids starting school and growing up. I stayed away from relationship talk. In the past I would have brought up how the real sadness is the kids have separated parents or something like that but I am trying to act like this doesn't affect me.
As the days go on its getting easier to not feed into my obsessions regarding asking him what he's been doing and if there is other woman. The feeling comes and I will call a friend (don't want to bother her too much though) or write here and then I can get through it.
Julie
I think WH was baiting your sadness in the convo, then temp checking with his later call.
You did well, really well.
Impressed
V
Yes, when you let the anger go, the pain, hurt, and sorrow come flooding back to the surface. What I am realizing is that it is easy to want to go back to feeling anger to get rid of the pain, but it inhibits personal growth because you spend too much time focus on what the other person did wrong and not on improving ourselves. It is easy to do this when your spouse does stuff that leads to resentment. That is where detaching comes in, but easier said than done.
Yes you are right. I bet this is true for the WAS as well, so I should avoid pushing his buttons, (something I was doing a lot of in past)
The problem is the majority of the time I am angry and it comes through. The DB coach and books recommend being upbeat when interacting with spouse. This has been impossible for me because of my resentment. I think I come across as distant and cool.
H stopped by yesterday to see kids and it was his suggestion for us all to go out to eat. I thought he just wanted to be with kids but he indicated in indirect way over phone that he was including me in visit. He Actually seemed frusturated when I assumed it was just him and kids but would not directly say the words...hard to explain. When he got here it was clear I was invited. He was surprisingly agreeable to go to a restaurant that the kids and I like, but One where he does not love the food. (I forgot when I made the suggestion thinking it was close by and kid friendly ) We both made polite conversation catching up on each other's families. Kids started fighting half way through and it got tough and we both wanted to just get out quickly! Still felt the distance though. I'm worried he's doing these things to prove that we can coparent and keep things amicable, or because he thinks it's good for the kids to have us all go out together. (Personally I would not want that if i knew no chance of reconciliation. I figure if he definatly tells me he wants to pursue divorce or legal separation, i would have not want to do any family outings because it sends mixed messages to everyone kids included). I would be hopeful that this is a baby step, but I know I can't count on that. I have read others posts where this happens and it means nothing. I was polite, but certainly no warmth because of the underlying anger. For a while We had become that couple that had nothing to say when we went to a restaurant, and it's even harder to be friends now cause outside of the kids there is nothing. That's why the marriage was failing. I wanted him to take up hobby with me but work and sleeping late was his life. I wanted connection for past year but he was too far gone.
Past few days were very rough. Husband on business trip and of course I am filled with anxieties. He only texted 1x to check on kids. I am feeling hopeless right now. I am sick that he will come back and tell me no chance of reconciliation and that he wants to move on.
I long to call him and ask questions about his goals for reconciliation but know any answers this early will only be ones I dont want to hear. I want to call about reassurances that there are no OW. I Know that this will diminish my power and self respect and broadcast my continued attachment. The only thing I have left is to do nothing.
Hard because I am still so attached. Only good thing is I have followed rules and no pursuing behaviors for 17 days. I feel like right now all I am doing is trying to get through my day. i don't feel like I have much to look forward to. If I break these rules i will be starting all over and will have to wait longer to see if they actually work.
He has not said that he wants to end things yet (accept after our fight and my blow up) and he did say after our big fight that he would not just send divorce papers without telling me first (the fact that he told me this is a bad sign). I just feel hopeless without contact.
There were so many signs that husband had mentally checked out this past year. I feel like he was just waiting for me to do something wrong so he could leave. I was trying but it was never enough. He feels like he was trying but it wasn't enough.
We had financial difficulties, health issues, car troubles,we were living in my relatives home with no privacy, and we came from a past where we were fighting a lot because of being overwhelmed with kids and finances (although his perception is that I was the problem, and I was to an extent. There are so many things I Should have done differently). He now lives in more comfortable environment, and has very little expenses, can sleep late and only has to worry about his car and work.
We are physically separated so little chance for him to see 180s.
I have no proof of OW and he has repeatedly said that there is no one, this is about us making each other miserable despite both of us being good people. In a situation like mine, are the chances slim that he will want to work on things or is he already committed to separation but scared to pull trigger (A while ago when I talked to our marriage counselor privately about this she had advised against the separation because she felt once he was gone there would be no reason for him to return. Things would be too easy for him)
Would love insight of my chances for reconciliation. Am I just fooling myself? I feel like that right now. I feel like he is again looking for that 1 excuse to end things.
Hi Julie! I have no idea what I'm doing here yet, but your last post especially really rang out to me. Lots of similarities to my thoughts right now. I haven't really laid my history/story out all that well as my mind skips all over the place and I write walls of text haha.
Any advice I give may not be good advice
I kinda of just want to talk haha. Maybe bounce things back and forth for support!
Your first paragraph mirrors my story so well it's not even funny. She checked out of the relationship years ago. I tried, but didn't really listen to what she was saying. So many difficulties, so many arguments with finance and sickness and kids and moving. I felt like neither of us really wanted to deal with it. We were both trying to escape I see now. Each in our own way. Me pulling into myself becoming depressed. Her staying away from the house always with friends becoming angry and hopeless. But yes she left and is now living imo far easier than I. Says she "deserves" it. Sleeps in. Doesn't have to worry about bills. Only has to go to work and work on her "happiness"
Now about them being separated and seeing the 180's I don't believe they should be for them to see. They are for us. They don't want to see them anyway. They don't care if we change. Once we realize this I think it's easier to just move forward with ourselves instead of worrying if they know that we are doing all of this work.
I too worry about OM. . Actually it's one of my deepest fears right now. It's something I am going to have to really try to move past. Because it almost paralyzes me when I think about it. She has told me there is no one. And that she can't even start to think about someone else. Which I hope is true but am trying to have no expectations on that whole situation.
I really hate to say it, but something I was told is that once they've walked out the door they have made their first step, they have had it in their mind to do this for a while. They have already been preparing for divorce. I don't know the chances of you guys working it out. And I didn't read all your posts so I don't know your whole situation. But I don't think anyone will know the chances.
Your counselor was right. They don't have a reason to come back. But they didn't have a reason to stay in their minds either. Yes things are easier, yes they say they are happier. So what. We have no control over them. Never did.
As far as chances for reconciliation, from what I understand, it's better not worry about it. We truly have to let it all go. It's not something we can control, predict, plan for etc.. None of that. Easier said then done, I know I'm not there yet.
I'm sorry if I got to black and white straight forward. I've had a lot of anger today. And I'm typing on my phone >:( I really do have hope and trust in God that things will work out for the best. And that there will be light in the darkness that's surrounding everyone here. Again take anything I say with a grain of salt. And if any vets say things that have countered what I say, then I would heed their advice/input over mine.
Most important of all, don't lose hope in yourself!
Hi hav hope
I guess a lot of our marital woes are pretty universal. I know a lot of our issues are described in numerous relationship books to the T. It's so frusturating. If only he would have read some of these books, or explored a different point of view on working through a marriage. But I can't control him.
Our situations are similar in that our spouses have not committed to a definitive answer. My husband has said he needs space, and does not want to make the wrong decision. Does not want to commit to reconciliation or things that would work torwards reconciliation like dates or marriage counseling partly because he does not want to mislead or send mixed messages to me or children (this makes no sense to me why wouldn't you try to do anything to prevent divorce...although we were both filled with anger and resenment so maybe he is right) but does not want to make any legal commitments (this could just be for financial reasons or maybe he truly is still attached on some level).
In a way this might be better because there might be hope that they are less committed to divorce? Or maybe it is worse, because we are left dangling...
In my case I am not collecting child support and not sure what steps to take. If I pursue it, he does not have to take that final step. I'm the one that will have made the decision and he goes guilt free. Telling everyone including himself that he wanted to try his wife filed. By not pursuing it, he lives easily getting to build up resources for himself. Does not really experience what divorce will truly be like. I am left in limbo and debating whether to do things that would be better for our relationship and finances and future but could potentially hurt me legally and financially as a single mom.
Yes you are right. They have been mentally divorced for a while. Nothing left to do but detach. There are so many ways I can analyze the situation. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't depending on spouse. But that is all we have left. But a lot to consider. In my case, I'm gonna give it another few weeks of following the DB rules and then see how it is progressing.
P.s. You give great advise, and I love hearing from the husband perspective. (My husband hates relationship talk, is a poor communicator, was very emotionally withdrawn)
I guess a lot of our marital woes are pretty universal. I know a lot of our issues are described in numerous relationship books to the T. It's so frusturating. If only he would have read some of these books, or explored a different point of view on working through a marriage. But I can't control him.
Its actually pretty fascinating to me that we can all be in such similar situations, have similar feelings, that span age,sex,time etc. I am more frustrated at myself for not knowing about these books or trying to see it from her point of view before she left.
Our situations are similar in that our spouses have not committed to a definitive answer. My husband has said he needs space, and does not want to make the wrong decision. Does not want to commit to reconciliation or things that would work torwards reconciliation like dates or marriage counseling partly because he does not want to mislead or send mixed messages to me or children (this makes no sense to me why wouldn't you try to do anything to prevent divorce...although we were both filled with anger and resenment so maybe he is right) but does not want to make any legal commitments (this could just be for financial reasons or maybe he truly is still attached on some level).
In a way this might be better because there might be hope that they are less committed to divorce? Or maybe it is worse, because we are left dangling...
Couple nights ago she said in no specific way that its going to be a divorce she just doesn't know when. And I guess for me its easier that way, because I know where we are at. I would hate to wait around for her to make up her mind, never knowing where it was going. On the other hand, I have little hope in reconciliation before Divorce, I do know 2-3 couples that have re-married but it is definitely rare from what I've seen. And this kind of crushes me.
Take the following with great amounts of salt, I am not a mind reader haha, I only know what I have done/thought.
He sounds unsure of what he is doing from what you have been saying at least. He is probably scared. Has he had a hard time committing to anything in the past? This may be whats happening. I know I always took forever to make decisions, because I was scared I would make the wrong one. When I joined the military I was mortified that I had made a bad decision. But it wasn't, and while I hated it when I was in, in retrospect it made me a stronger person. This might be where he is at with all of this. And that may be no consolation, but hopefully insightful.
In my case I am not collecting child support and not sure what steps to take. If I pursue it, he does not have to take that final step. I'm the one that will have made the decision and he goes guilt free. Telling everyone including himself that he wanted to try his wife filed. By not pursuing it, he lives easily getting to build up resources for himself. Does not really experience what divorce will truly be like. I am left in limbo and debating whether to do things that would be better for our relationship and finances and future but could potentially hurt me legally and financially as a single mom.
I think that for this, you have to make the best decision for you and the kids. Looking at the picture now, not what may happen. You guy's are physically separated, he doesn't want to work towards reconciliation. He doesn't want to commit for potentially financial reasons. All red flags IMO.
I don't want to say give up. There is always HOPE in eyes. Definitely watch and listen. But I think if the time come's to make the hard decisions, then don't set yourself up for failure. You deserve to be happy, your kids deserve security and happiness as well.
He is still going to have guilt, but who cares if you make the first step. You will know the truth of it. Your conscience will know the truth. Your kids will know the truth. He can sit there and pretend he did nothing all day, but that's on him. If you get tired of waiting around for him, then I say do it. Not saying rush out and sign the papers first, but definitely do what you think is right for you and your kid's.
Yes you are right. They have been mentally divorced for a while. Nothing left to do but detach. There are so many ways I can analyze the situation. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't depending on spouse. But that is all we have left. But a lot to consider. In my case, I'm gonna give it another few weeks of following the DB rules and then see how it is progressing.
I am right there with you. I have pretty much gone completely dark. I only respond to texts from her about bills, or my daughter. I am waiting and watching. No rush. Trying out patience. Working on myself (trying to make it for me not her, but difficult to do.)
And thank you
we all have to support each other. I was right where your husband was 3 weeks ago, but as a 180, I will no longer keep my feelings inside, and will communicate openly anything I desire ha ha. Relationship talk is the oil in the machine of marriage. If we avoid it, the marriage eventually breaks. (except with my wife at the moment, cause im detaching
if she opens back up, then we will see if i have truly learned anything. )
Havhope...
yes . husband is certainly not the impulsive type. He took 1 year to tell me he loved me, and a very long time to propose (I never pressured him on either decision as I was pretty content). He tends to take a long time doing things (something very frusturating for myself and others to deal with) and is very meticulous. I have to say that when he does something it's always done correctly. He is only capable of doing 1 thing at a time. I had such faith in him that this would never happen. He was so dependable and trustworthy and stable and loyal. I miss him.
That is why I know how serious this is. This was not an impulsive move. He was unhappy for a long time. Many of his friends are getting divorced, so despite coming from a family Where divorce just simply does not happen, I don't have much confidence that he will choose to work on things. i thought his unhappiness was due to finances and his job and our living arrangement but I guess it was me. We moved in to my families house for financial reasons and things deteriorated fast. He feels like I was always criticisizing him and took him for granted and that he tried to make me happy but I was always negative. And he's right. He was so detached this past year, and the stress was never ending. I actually feel like he was doing things to avoid reconnecting with me. I felt like I was set up to fail.
It's weird but a few days after I had my blow up at him (screaming about child support, and that he abandoned us, and wasn't being good father and other stuff I don't even remember.) we talked on the phone and he was ready to proceed. He told me "this ship has sailed we are just both afraid of change and that I really hurt him" I discussed all the reasons to stay married..our vows, there is still love, I can work on myself, the kids, reasons cited in DB book, etc. and he ended up saying he needs more space and that I shouldn't worry that he would not just file without tellin me. Afterwards he has been more interested in kids, waking up earlier to see them, and actually asked me to join them to dinner, but things were very distant and polite.
I have no idea what's going on. Hes away now and only texted 1x to ask about kids. I feel like No other contact clearly means he is not thinking of me and wants out. I want so badly to call him. I want to ask him if there is still chance for reconciliation or has ship sailed but I know that's the worst thing to do. I am terrified that when he returns he is going to say he wants to proceed with divorce. The writing is on the wall but I keep holding out for hope. I am dying to call right now as I write this and just ask him but it will ruin the 18 days of me being faithful to sandys rules. Plus he honestly might not know yet.
Honestly I think chances are slim and I'm just fooling myself.
So I guess the real question is, what type of chance do sandys rules and 180s have when spouse had been checked out and actually doing everything possible to avoid connecting for about a year. Especially now that spouse has moved out.
If he was distant it was because he was afraid of being hurt again. It wasn't because he didn't love you and stopped being attracted to you. Imagine a rose surrounded by thorns. Reach for the rose, be stung by the thorns.
Remove the thorns, let him see that he could be safe with you, and he might come back. You can't talk him into it, or make promises, or do anything you've done before. You must genuinely learn what was hurting him, validate it to the point that you change yourself, allow him to see those changes, and then trust it to work out as it was meant to.
The challenge is that usually we have our own fears. Our own insecurities. We weren't hurting our WAS's by choice. But validating their concerns would somehow force us to confront parts of us that frighten us, that we didn't think we could change. And by default we put our discomfort ahead of their needs or feelings. And they were hurt. So it's not an overnight process, 'ok, I get it now, c'mon back and it'll be fine'. It's more about understanding why we're so afraid of making those changes, addressing them from the roots, then gradually deciding to grow into a person that is stronger.
This is pretty touchy feely, but the point is that his biggest fear is that he will love you too much and return, only to be hurt again. Work on the thorns, and let him approach at a pace that is safe for him so you don't scare him off.
Zues, thank you.
I want so much for what you say to be true. I am actually afraid to have hope that what you say could be true.
I have to reflect more on this, but I think he might feel like i could never accept him for who he was. He feels like I was never happy with him and always complaining. He felt like I never had patience. We are so different and I was trying to fit him into how I thought things should be. Also intimacy was neglected after kids and then he felt used when I wanted to conceive again (this is true after experiencing multiple miscarriages). I subconsciously blamed him for everything that went wrong as well and I don't know why.
If your analysis is correct would I still only initiate contact with him when pertaining to kids or would friendly non relationship conversation be appropriate? Should I invite him on family outing or wait for him to do so? We only see each other during drop offs and he does linger in my families home. Should I just proceed as is for now? I have to try to get coldness and anger out of my voice and will reread your message before I see him on Friday.
I Was miserable past few days but after reading your post I have some hope again. I think i might actually be able to get some sleep now
Right now I am feeling like my husband is being ridiculous and I just don't want to play these games anymore. I don't want to be worried and depressed anymore because he's being an [censored]. I'm sick of it. He is acting like a big [censored] baby and I'm acting like this lovesick puppy victim. I just want no part of it anymore. Time for me to detach. I will remain polite but I cant do this anymore.
I hope I feel like this tomorrow.
So far I am doing great with holding back on pursuing behaviors. It's been 21 days without any. I'm feeling less paranoid and obsessed with other woman and I get the urge to confront him with my anxieties less and less. Not asking for reassurance is making me feel more powerful as well.
He did push my buttons on a topic that really bothered me. It involved my family. The call and topic was initiated by him. The good thing is I did not respond with nasty comments or anger. It did not result in a fight. And I did a little bit of validating. My bad reaction I is that it bothered me so much I called him twice to defend my family.
Had my 3rd session with DB coach. She feels like I need to focus more on being a friend to him. Right now it is hard for me to be anything but cold and polite. I am hurting. I feel like he abandoned us. I am angry that he is doing this. I am angry because he blames it on me. I am mistrustful and anxious that he might have legal/financial motives.
She told me I need to be more friendly and talk to him as I would a friend. That I need to act as if...And that good feelings are contagious, that positive energy is powerful.
She told me That it is good to go on family outings together for the kids. (Something I did not want to do because I don't want to be just a co parent. I don't want him to have his cake. I want him to realize That a divorce will not be amicable and wonderful with us all being friends)
She also said That it is ok to give him a compliment once in a while. That its ok to initiate a friendly call. Just no pursuing.
Any insight to this, as it seems to be opposite of what I read on the boards. Perhaps because I'm a female dealing with husband who left? Perhaps she could sense my negativity and feels like positivity would be the 180? Any ideas?
I'm not sure how to be anymore!!!!!!
It's not easy.
We can't fall into the trap of thinking there's a right way to be to maximize your chances of getting him back. That's a covert contract, "I'll act this way and then you'll want me back". He won't do his part, then you'll be resentful, and that act will fade.
The only thing we can do is improve ourselves, using this crisis as a catalyst, and looking for the grain of truth in their spew in terms of holding ourselves accountable.
The big challenge is that you're hurting. When you're hurting it's really hard to see beyond yourself, and it's hard not to be angry at the person you feel is causing you that pain. But that's real life. I've realized that part of being in a mature relationship is behaving in accordance with your beliefs even when you don't feel like it.
That means standing by your M even when you are sick of it.
That means treating your H respectfully even when you don't feel he deserves it.
These are 180s. Because I'm guessing that during the M you didn't do these things. An H's biggest need is for the approval of their W, and often measure this by sex life. If you judged him and found him lacking and withheld his deepest emotional and physical needs because you were angry...maybe this is a good 180.
Don't judge him. Don't treat him disrespectfully. Draw boundaries to avoid getting mistreated, but grow up into a person that can recognize that his pain and his emotions are as important as yours when you're on a TEAM. Look at things through the TEAM lens. Realize that getting what you want and bulldozing him to get it makes the team lose, and that's kind of what happened here.
To recap, how should you act? Act in accordance with your core beliefs, and I hope those beliefs are about commitment, respect, and the ability to give validity to his needs and feelings to the same extent as yours.
This won't happen overnight, so no need to rush. But create some good checkpoints. How much of the time do you spend thinking of the pain you're in vs. thinking about the pain he's in? How much of the time do you think about where he's being unreasonable, vs. thinking about where you're unreasonable? What are some things you can do to get beyond yourself when you're blinded by pain and anger? These are things to consider.
In the midst of all of this just be your best self, relax, take things one day at a time, give him space without walling him off, let go, and work on yourself to become the best person you can be.
And so on...;)
Julie,
I wish I had some great advice to give you right now
I think your coach is saying be friendly because it will help YOU be more positive. I keep forgetting that this all isn't about our spouses anymore. It about who we are and who we can become.
You can be angry with him all you want but its not going to help things either way. I know the anger masks the pain, but when the pain breaks back through it does so with a vengeance.. at least for me.
You should still protect yourself. Let go of expectations for him. He may or may not have motives that are less than amicable. But you cant read his mind. Do what is going to make you the best version of you. Set yourself up for success.
I wish I could just have a db coach in my ear telling me advice. because as soon as I walk away from reading all this. I slip back into the negative emotions. So we have to DB ourselves. Be our own coaches. Yell at ourselves to get back up and keep on the positive side of life.
Hi Julie, I have been reading your thread with great interest as I feel my situation is identical to your ( apart my H had/ has an A). I know it's hard but try to shift the focus from him to you. What hurst the most is being in limbo.
Do you want a D? If not then don't think about it, and try to find things to do each day to take your mind of the situation. If he wants a D, he'll have to file for it. Call me naive but I also don't want to raise your hope too high, but if a spouse really want to check out of a M, they'll find means and ways to do it.
My H husband was determine to cut ties with his dad. He has done it. He also determine to cut ties with his ex-partner, he has done it ( virtually no contact with her, unless it's about their child). So I believe if he wanted a D, he'd initiate it. One of my friend thinks that H don't file for D because they are lazy. I do believe if someone REALLY wants something they can do it.
I pushed my H to file for D, but still waiting to hear from him. Fear pushes us to do awful things, so turn the wheel round. You have been looking after your kids on your own now, so you know you'll be fine with that. The financial side will settle by itself.
I know that's not you want to hear right now but unfortunately a quick fix won't work. We all need to learn how to be patient. You are on your journey to better you, and I'm afraid your H must do it too! Probably not at the same pace as you.
You are doing very well as you are saying that you are not on medication, then you are able to get up every morning and look after your beautiful twins. This shows great character as many people won't be able to do what you are doing now. Keep having faith.
Thinking of you :-)
What are you plans for today? Me baking with kids, then taking my dog for a walk. Simple things but they make me happy.
The big challenge is that you're hurting. When you're hurting it's really hard to see beyond yourself, and it's hard not to be angry at the person you feel is causing you that pain. But that's real life. I've realized that part of being in a mature relationship is behaving in accordance with your beliefs even when you don't feel like it.
That means standing by your M even when you are sick of it.
That means treating your H respectfully even when you don't feel he deserves it.
These are 180s. Because I'm guessing that during the M you didn't do these things. An H's biggest need is for the approval of their W, and often measure this by sex life. If you judged him and found him lacking and withheld his deepest emotional and physical needs because you were angry...maybe this is a good 180.
Yes i am very hurt and very angry. I was awake late last night thinking about the past few years. My husband was being pulled in a lot of directions. He had the stress of his job, his father died and his mother was asking him for a lot of help, he had his own hobbies and errands that he needed to take care of and then me and the kids wanted his attention. It was hard for him to balance everything and he communicated this to me many times. I often felt that me and the kids were last on the priority list. I realized that we were in fact last on the priority list because we were the first to go when things got difficult for him. He left us and has not been financially contributing fairly. And I am so hurt and so angry. On the other hand, if i had looked upon our relationship more as a team, and was more understanding to his dilemma maybe he would have actually put us at the top of his list? I felt like i was competing with his mom and his job, and if i had acted a little differently we would not have been obligations but fun times.i guess i just did not have the tools and was unable to separate myself from the situation
Don't judge him. Don't treat him disrespectfully. Draw boundaries to avoid getting mistreated, but grow up into a person that can recognize that his pain and his emotions are as important as yours when you're on a TEAM. Look at things through the TEAM lens. Realize that getting what you want and bulldozing him to get it makes the team lose, and that's kind of what happened here.
No. That is exactly what happened here. I definatly bulldozed in order to get what i wanted. It was not fair and backfired cause we both ended up resentful and bitter and never actually had fun. (Zues, out of curiosity, how do you have such good instincts just from reading an individuals posts? Do you have a background in psychology? Im sure this helps you succeed with sales) Right now we are a team when dealing with the boys. I believe we are working well in that aspect. It is hard to know because our communication is just so detached and polite and formal.
To recap, how should you act? Act in accordance with your core beliefs, and I hope those beliefs are about commitment, respect, and the ability to give validity to his needs and feelings to the same extent as yours.
I am currently trying to respect him by giving him space. That is something he has asked for for a long time and something i was not good at giving him. I have avoided all relationship talk. I am asking him his opinion when it comes to the children and making it more a joint effort. But i feel like we are growing more and more apart. I am not sure about the duration of this. I know the boys ask him when he is coming back and he says "i dont know" Is this a good sign that he has never actually said to them a definitive "daddy is not coming back"?
This won't happen overnight, so no need to rush. But create some good checkpoints. How much of the time do you spend thinking of the pain you're in vs. thinking about the pain he's in? How much of the time do you think about where he's being unreasonable, vs. thinking about where you're unreasonable? What are some things you can do to get beyond yourself when you're blinded by pain and anger? These are things to consider.
When i am consumed with anger I actually will read your posts, and i review notes i took during a DB session. I find that they have helped prevent me from saying things that would really destroy any chance at reconciliation. It is hard for me to think that he is in pain, because i feel like he has all the power. I feel like he in the drivers seat. I want to work on reconciliation, he does not know if he wants to. That is where we are. I am living my life like i always did but i feel like he has the power. There is nothing I can do, only things i cannot/should not do.
In the midst of all of this just be your best self, relax, take things one day at a time, give him space without walling him off, let go, and work on yourself to become the best person you can be.
Thank you.
Hi Julie! Reading through your thread with interest. Lots of good advice in here I want to apply.
I am a mom of twins, also! I call them our bonus kids...I wanted "just one more" and had identical red-haired twin boys. I deeply love all our children, but these two have been a special kind of fun. All of us had a hand in raising them.
I'm doing some deep thinking today while reading through other situations. I have some decisions to make and need all the input I can get.
Hi rouky
Thank you for your kind words. And I am Sorry it took so long to reply. I was so busy and tired these past several days. did catch up with your threads, and yes there are so many similarities. I had questions regarding your husband and will come post on your board shortly.
I do place hope on the fact that he has not said the word "divorce" or has actually filed. I am hoping that he just wants change in our marriage. Although I do know that if I pushed him for an answer today he would choose divorce. When you said the financial side will settle by itself, does that mean that you think I should just hold off on pursuing child support? My gut tells me yes, but my family, and most posters think I'm crazy. At times I'm furious more because of the fairness of it then the immediate need for money. He has agreed to help pay for things when i ask. Surprisingly he has also been wanting to see kids more, but like your husband does not want to commit to schedule (which would be so much more helpful to me) he wants to come get them when it's convenient to him.
I have been asking his opinion more when it comes to kids and really following his advise. I really only just started this, but I think its been positive because it is helping me to improve communication skills (at least when it's done via text) and I did not always do this in past. I am going to continue this and see how it goes. He actually does have good insight when it comes to the boys.
It's weird but a few days after I had my blow up at him (screaming about child support, and that he abandoned us, and wasn't being good father and other stuff I don't even remember.) we talked on the phone and he was ready to proceed. He told me "this ship has sailed we are just both afraid of change and that I really hurt him"
I feel like No other contact clearly means he is not thinkng of me and wants out.
Hey Julie, I know I have had a blow up of my own, so take this advice from the perspective that I heard about last week and in our counseling session this week. As good as it feels in the moment, it really is not doing you any favors. My H brought up thus and a few other things as irrational/unstable behavior and is why he is fairly determined to not R. I know there is a good reason to cause me to act in this way, but it does not help. He said he was very hurt but my words, though he did say something about considering going to IC because I said he was being a narcissist or sick. Point is your H is likely keeping a running tab on all of your behavior right now. Try to find other ways to channel your anger. Maybe go break some plates in the garage or something.
The statement about not thinking about you is mind-reading and wasted energy. You don't know that is the case and probably very likely not.
Did you ever go talk to L? Can't remember.
Bt13
I know it was the worst thing I could have done. the truth is, I really do not lose my temper like that. I can count on 1 hand the times I have lost it like that in the entire time we have been together (instead I have always relied on nasty passive aggressive comments
). That child support issue and the anger and hurt over being abandoned and the being in limbo just took its toll. Plus my mom had been really instigating. Plus the day prior he initiated a conversation with me that I might have misinterpreted? It just led to the perfect storm.
In a follow up conversation I initiated 2 days later, he told me he wanted to proceed and that the ship has sailed and that we are only with each other because we are afraid of change. I basically told him how much I wanted to reconcile, and that we made vows, and that we have a family and should not just throw this away, that our problems are salvageable, that I am still,attracted to him, etc... It ended by us agreeing to take more space. At least that's how I think it ended. I told him I would use the space to work on me. I asked him if he loved me and he said "I'm still talking to you". Basically I pursued and did everything I should not have.
It's been 25 days since that incident, and without any pursuing behaviors (including constantly asking if there is other woman...this mad me look needy and insecure). . IM proud of that but surprised at how much time has gone by. All of my interactions have been about the kids or about some thing superficial (and that is minimal). I have been a bit cold and detached but very polite. I have been putting more effort into my appearance (since kids I was always a gym clothes no makeup kind of person). He initiated another pretty offensive conversation about my mom, but I did not lose my temper or make some comments I would have in the past.
I have noticed that he has been waking up earlier and spending more time with the children. he has also been agreeable when I ask him for money for kids.
My DB coach suggested I try to focus on being warm and friendly now and to treat him as I would a friend. She said do not bring up topic of divorce. So this is where I am now...still in limbo, wondering what he is thinking.
Hey Julie. I've had writers block and haven't had much to offer. Just wanted you to know I'm reading and sending you some good vibrations. If you can just keep from doing anything irreversible and destructive you're doing better than most. I'm glad you have a DB coach and are reflecting, while still working on yourself. Keep it up and keep posting!
Hi Julie, if your H isn't mentioning D, don't approach the subject as you might hear things that you are not prepared to deal with. Regarding the money I meant that if you keep a log of how much he gives you for the kids, if it comes to worse you can then show to the court that he didn't support you and it can't see the court not pleasing in your favour. I know I sound revengeful but we didn't ask to be in that situation. Yes we have our own flawns but we never acted the way out H did. TBH I see it as a sign of weakness as it is far easier to jump out of the ship before it sinks than working on keeping it a float.
Keep working on you and something good will eventually come out of it.
Ugh. I am embarrassed and ashamed to have to admit this, but during a conversation about kids, I ended up pursuing by asking him where he was going and then getting upset when he was being evasive. I assumed there was other woman. I ruined the 26 days that I had been doing so well and am mad at myself. It did lead to a relationship talk though. And of course I don't remember how it all went or the order of it. I'm mad at myself though, because now he knows how attached I am. There was no yelling, which is good. But definite disgreement.
I said something along the lines of he should not have to feel like hurting me because he is the one that left us and he has all the power. He disagrees with this and says Im the one that pushed him out with all the hurtful things I have said. He mentioned how differently we both see this. He told me that I'm the one that rushes off the phone and ends the conversation (very true because I'm hurt and thought that's what im supposed to do)and that I do not call
He said there is no other woman. I asked him if he would be jealous if I had other person and he said yes of course. I know that was a pushy question and pursuing. I'm just so desperate for some type of affection.
He said that I am playing the victim and I have not taken any accountability for my self and my role. That I think it's all him. I disagreed.
He says " I don't know" when I asked him how he wants to proceed. And that I need to work on myself and he needs to work on himself regardless of what happens. He basically said that I need to do all the things that are recommended in the divorce busting books (no he does not read self help or relationship books) and that when I act insecure and blow up at him (27 days ago) it does not make him want to fix things.
I feel like it was good because his conversation with me showed that he is still attached to me. He knows infidelity is my boundary and reassured me that this not occurring. (I was badly hurt from that in a prior relationship and Ended everything). If he truly wanted to end things this is all that would have to occur. but bad because I feel like he has all these excuses to keep this going a long time. It's also bad because we see things so differently. I also feel like it is difficult for us to empathize with each other.
Right now I long for companionship. I am lonely. I want someone to share life with. I want intimacy and he has closed himself off for who knows how long. I have felt like this even when he was here and I am just sick of it.
For me working on reconciliation would mean dates, and counseling, and talks, and he wants space. When I give him space he mentions I don't call him.
I am so unhappy and lonely. I hate my living situation. I'm not sure how much time to give it, and I don't know how to work on me to make myself happy.
I feel like he gets a vacation. Can go and come as he pleases. No responsibilities. Knows he has me waiting for him.
I am so unhappy and lonely. I hate my living situation. I'm not sure how much time to give it, and I don't know how to work on me to make myself happy.
Sorry you had a tough day. Don't be too hard on yourself. Anything that happens in the first 90 days that isn't absolutely irreversible is a job well done. I'm saying it again.
I'd like to know more about your beliefs on M and D. When do you believe D is justified?
I know you're hurt, scared, and lonely. It doesn't feel good. Hang in and keep posting.
Julie, give yourself a break. We all feel like we've broken the rules from time to time. shake it off, move on and continue doing the DB, I think from you post that not all is lost. I recall feeling so desperate as well at the beginning and lonlee is my middle name. Try to look at the positives that came out of you conversation with him .
1- he is noticing that your being short on the phone and not calling.. thats good .. let him wonder what your doing...
2 - he says there is no other woman.. hopefully this is the truth.
3 - he is telling you not to play the victim ..be confidant be happy positive attitude smile.. all things that show you are not a victim and you will not be broken by his actions
4 - he has not made any decisions to end things at this point. don't ask let him work on things.. and you work on you
5 - you feel good about the conversation because you feel he is still connected to you. good use this bit of positivity to spark you to keep doing the DB and work on your goals . all is not lost at this point.
your living situation is Stinky i agree .. so is mine .. but you can do this. I have been in your shoes and it is /was not easy. it may take a long , really long time for the tides to change.
How badly do you want a R with your spouse? Remember, this is your chance to make the changes in your next relationship to be what you want it to be. You weren't happy before you were separated so work on getting the things you want, into your next R. The marriage you had is over. time to think about what you want from your next R with your spouse and work on what you need to do to make it better.
My H recently said to me "its like were dating, but as a couple" Ill take that as a positive sign that we have come along way since BD in April. I have DB to thank for it, and all the wonderful friends iv'e made here along the way. We are not ready to reconcile and move back together at this point in time. And I can honestly say that at this point its just as much about me and my feelings about our R as it is his. Your H doesn't have all the power in this. You carry a lot of weight being the other half of this R. think about it.
we are all rooting for you. take pleasure in the baby steps, notice the small things, they add up to be big things in the future.
Thanks lonelee. I really look forward to reading your threads. I have been scared of having hope in the babysteps. I have read about others babysteps that unfortunately do not always lead to success and it can be demoralizing. I end up feeling like, who am I to think my situation is different? That my husband is not having affair with OW. That this babystep indicates something positive. I would be a fool to really truly have faith. So you have given me some hope back.
Thank you as well Zeus
When do I believe divorce is justified?
When someone's life is endangered, or a child's life or well being is endangered. No brainer.
But I know this is a more complicated question. It's not fair to be miserable your whole life and deprived of a healthy relationship but it's not fair to break vows and commitments when your unhappiness is fixable either. I will reflect on this.
I'll offer my two cents
I like your answer. I agree, if it's truly self defense of you or the children, agreed with getting out of dodge. I could also be on board with chronic adultery.
Beyond that I think we need to suck it up. Because what's next? Addiction? To what? Drugs? Alcohol? Pornography? Gambling? Caffeine? Shopping? Processed foods? Facebook? Where do we draw the line? Should we include emotional abuse? Arguing? Years of resentment? Loneliness? Neglect? Lack of appreciation? No sparks? Poor sex life?
Guess what...if we used those definitions approximately 100% of married people could build an iron clad case for divorce. I really believe that any married person could hold up their spouse's imperfections and their pain and suffering to a jury of friends and family and be given a 'green light' to get a D.
But what does that accomplish? We have 300 million people in this country with problems. If we partner up, have children, then D each other and tear those families apart, only to swap partners with someone else with problems...all that's happened is that we've caused a lot of suffering just to end up with different problems. From a purely common sense perspective it doesn't make much sense. Sure, some individuals might find someone who's problems are more bearable, but that's the dragon everyone is chasing. The lure is that new relationships feel good for 6 months but D leaves a lifetime of destruction.
So I am of the school that believes everyone should STFU and stick it out. Is your spouse neglectful? Tough. Are they an alcoholic? Tough. Maybe, just maybe, if we were all truly committed to M, we'd invest more energy into making it better instead of just thinking "they'd better fix this or I will cut bait at some point".
These are my beliefs. I was in a M that was absolutely sex starved which for me would be a deal breaker if I had one. I mean, it's the one thing I can't get outside of M and it's my deepest physical/emotional/spiritual need and it was just flat out denied to me for years at a time...I felt so lonely I felt I was a single man that could never date again that paid 100% of my income in child support with no word of thanks. But even still, I was never going to walk, because I figured maybe in 5 years we'd work through it. And I still think we would've, if we had truly known our only options were to be M and miserable or to be M and find a way to be happy. But when the D option is out there it's just too easy.
I really like the 3 part series on "Marriage Expectations" by Andy Stanley. He talks a lot about what we should do when our spouse is failing our expectations. That comes in the later parts. About an hour all in. I'd love your take on it if you get time to view it.
I bring all of this up because I know your M stinks right now and you want more. I think it helps to know what you believe in, because emotions aren't always a good compass during times like this. And I always find it funny (or tragic) when a LBS no longer stands by their M because of their feelings when they get mad at the WAS for acting on THEIR feelings. I think we should follow our beliefs, not our feelings, and that we need to act with the character we wish our partners had. If we can't do it, it's not fair to expect them to.
Thanks for listening to my extremist ranting Julie
Hi zues,
When do I believe divorce is justified?
I am afraid of committing to a definitive answer because I understand the irony and double standards that my answers will have. It's true. Often enough, I do not want to stand by my M because of my hurt feelings over my husband acting on his hurt feelings.
thank you for reminding me not to rely on my emotions.
In my case, I can say that any physical affair would be grounds for divorce. This issue is Black and white and was clearly defined by both of us early in our relationship. It is a boundary neither of us would tolerate. As my husband would say, "you don't just accidently slip your..." You get my drift.
A lot of the other issues that have plagued our relationship are not so clear cut or easily defined. And we place different values on each of them, so it really would be a tragedy to tear a family apart when it's all due to lack of understanding, ignorance, effort and lack of simple tools. Too bad I never sought the tools until our family was torn apart.
That's why I do not think your views are extremist ranting. I think they are very rational and logical. People (that do not have severe mental illness) choose to have children and commit to raising them despite the difficulties. Why should you commit to marriage and then abandon it?
My husband and I both made each other unhappy for a long time. In my mind divorce simply wasn't an option. Instead I tried to fix it by trying to get him to see things my way. That was disadvantageous. I find that I am still doing this (at least in my mind cause relationship talk is very limited)
Will try to watch marriage expectations shortly
Julie
After watching the first series I realize a better way of viewing it is committing to another person not marriage.
I like your post Zurs126, and you are right when you say that our emotions get in a way, my only reserve is how can you carry on with our belief when your S clearly has his/ her own and there are the opposite of yours (you wanting the save your M, him/ her wanting out)?
Zues,
I love you dearly, but I can't agree. Some behaviours are so destructive, so selfish so damaging to an M, they require attention and other than 'sucking it up'. Gambling, smoking. Alcohol, porn, excess spending, religion etc when compulsive are very distructive. I could say a poor sexlife isn't a deal breaker, for you it is. No sex life is a deal breaker, if it's deliberate, what do you do if the spouse is ill, depressed etc.
It's a view, all sitches are different. Absolutely they are.
V
Zues,
I love you dearly, but I can't agree. Some behaviours are so destructive, so selfish so damaging to an M, they require attention and other than 'sucking it up'. Gambling, smoking. Alcohol, porn, excess spending, religion etc when compulsive are very distructive. I could say a poor sexlife isn't a deal breaker, for you it is. No sex life is a deal breaker, if it's deliberate, what do you do if the spouse is ill, depressed etc.
It's a view, all sitches are different. Absolutely they are.
V
I didn't say no sex life was a deal breaker for me. I said it would be the most painful thing I'd have to endure. But I would endure it. I would not walk on a M.
You're right that 'sucking it up' isn't always the best option. There are many ways to handle these difficult situations, and they ARE all different.
My main point was that walking away from a marriage is not one of those ways.
Most people think they agree with that but then, when they aren't happy, their sitch becomes the exception that warrants D.
I only wish that these people would speak up at the onset. Instead of "for better for worse, richer or poorer, sickness or health, until death do we part" I wish they'd put an asterisk and mention "or unless you have any of the following 52 vices (list), 193 mental conditions (list), or you don't meet my following unvoiced expectations (list)". At least then I'd know to stay away from those people because I'd know my M would be doomed and it would just be a matter of timing.
Instead I'll have to be on the lookout. I think that these days the majority of people are following these 'adjusted' wedding vows. Even many of the members of this board. There's going to be a lot of empowered individuals that have multiple failed M's, torn up families, tons of pain in their heart, live singly with their own house/bank account and have a 5-10 year bf/gf that they get to know during their golden years to take walks with while they wonder what could have been...
For me, give me a miserable M that meets none of my needs and has me dealing with codependency and destructive compulsions. This is not what I'm hoping for or looking for, but if this is how it goes, which is all I've ever really seen in the real world, I'll be ready to navigate through it. And while everyone else is wondering why I put up with that, I'll be married and at times happily. I'm guessing 99% of the board is shaking their heads right not. Don't worry, odds are good next W will leave me again anyway, so I'll be able to enjoy the same empowered single lifestyle, and it will all be over soon enough.
In the meantime I still play a good game of pool. Somewhat compulsively at times...;)
No I get it.
This is your choice and absolutely you are allowed to be miserable in an M if it is on balance the better option than D
V
Zues
I agree with your sentiment, and i believe that many of the problems in marriage are universal battle of the sexes, and very fixable. But like rouky mentioned, when one person does not share that sentiment or level of commitment what can really be done? Unfortunately there really is no screening method for finding that partner that really would stay with you through everything.
My husband was so stable and dependable and loyal in every way. He took a long time to commit to marriage and said this was something he only wanted to do once. As I have said before, i did not cheat or flirt or partake in any vices, I have been a very patient mother (one of my sons has major behavior/sensory issues) , I stayed in shape (although admittedly was too tired to dress up), and to be honest I nagged a lot less then many other wives did and probably tolerated more than many others would have (husband would stay up late with video games/movies and then would not wake up to help with anything till 2 in the afternoon and if I let him even later) and he left when things became difficult. (He justifies leaving by insisting that I pushed him out with some cruel remarks)
I feel so angry just at the fact that he would abandon us, because I thought his character was similar to mine, and this lack of commitment is very hard for for me to come to terms with.
In the first series of the talk you recommended, the speaker mentions that the problem is that we commit to a marriage instead of a person. Are/were you committed to your wife or to marriage as an institution? Which is it that you are referring to?
Lonelee,
I have still not been able to catch up with your threads, but I have reread your post a few times and find it encouraging. You said that I too have power, as I make up half of the partnership. My husband said something like this to me as well during the conversation. I have thought about it and still do not feel it and to be honest I don't see it or really understand.
I feel like The only power I have comes when I no longer care about making the relationship work. If/When I get to that point I don't know how that would help anything.
Am I seeing this wrong?
How do I work on what I need to do when he is not around? The crazy thing is I have great relationships with my family, coworkers, friends. He would even tell me "you have patience for everyone but me". i don't know why this is true but it is and now I worry because I have limited chances to work on things and I do not know how to navigate it because the advice is conflicting and counterintuitive and I simply don't get him. He walled me off.
I am not sure about committed to the spouse thing. Most of the time I think we are primarily committed to our spouses. However, when you are dealing with something your S has done, intentionally or not, that is so painful, whether it be an A, sexless M, no affection, etc., I am not sure it is realistic to rely solely on commitment to your spouse. I think it is more like Painter's signature:
_________________________
On a good day, I'm committed to my spouse.
On a so-so day, I'm committed to my marriage.
On a bad day, I'm committed to my commitment
I realize I was the one that filed in my sitch, but at a certain point you realize you have to start protecting yourself. Maybe I could have found that another way, but I think in my case it was the only way to get H to realize I he was going to lose me. Even now, it seems to has not made a difference and its most likely because of his A.
Today sucked. I was feeling pretty depressed about how my life is just not where I wanted it to be. I feel like such a failure. It is hard to be fun and optimistic with the kids.
I was reading another post in which a left behind husband moved on from his wayward wife. She now wants him back and he came to the realization that she had too many issues and no longer wants to reconcile.
I am happy for him (all of our ultimate fantasies I'm sure). But I could not help feeling like I was that wife. i did not do the things that she did, But obviously my actions were bad enough tthat my husband feels he could not handle it any more. That I was so bad to him he left. I remember all the times I took my stresses out at him, and criticized him. And I feel like now it is simply too late and the longer he is gone, the less of a chance he has to come back. There is no other woman. He just was so miserable he left. He actually said to me "I cannot survive in this".
Looking back, he had checked out so long ago. It has been 3 months since he left. He does not want to go to counseling, he does not ask for us to spend time together, only initiates contact regarding the children, I feel like right now I'm just wasting my time. I feel like those baby steps are just unrealistic. I feel like all he is doing is waiting for me to prove him right so he can be justified in leaving. I feel like he had been building his case for the past year. How long should I continue this.
I am so negative...that was my main issue, and I cant break out of it.
JulieH,
It has been only 3 months and it is still raw. I fully understand where you are coming from, and in a way you are like me a tad impatient :-).
Please focus on you and your kids, they need their mum. Do you have friends with whom you could go out for a couple of hours, and take your mind of things?
Unfortunately mind is a powerful thing, and if you keep focusing on negative, you'll only see negative things! Change your mind to positive. I promise it will get better.
Sending you positive vibes :-)
Julie i'm sorry your feeling so low. It is a long road unfortunately. Read sandy's rules again and try to do one or two and see how it goes. I know you feel like your not doing anything to make your sit better but sometimes it is what you don't do that makes the difference. just because he is not coming around or talking much with you doesn't mean he's moving on or planning anything. He is taking the time he needs to figure things out for him self. respect him enough to give him this time.
You have power but you haven't identified it yet. You have the power to change your life, your children's lives and potentially your husband and marriage. If you find your self being negative make it your 180.If you couldn't dress nice before make it a 180 .. or at least anytime theres a chance you'll see H. I remember a time not so long ago that my every thought was consumed with what my H was doing and with whom. It was so exhausting. I can tell you that with time this phase will get easier. Have faith in the DB method. try to remain positive and do what you can to GAL and get thinking about something other than your sit.
Thinking of you..
I am happy for him (all of our ultimate fantasies I'm sure). But I could not help feeling like I was that wife. i did not do the things that she did, But obviously my actions were bad enough tthat my husband feels he could not handle it any more. That I was so bad to him he left. I remember all the times I took my stresses out at him, and criticized him. And I feel like now it is simply too late and the longer he is gone, the less of a chance he has to come back. There is no other woman. He just was so miserable he left. He actually said to me "I cannot survive in this".
Looking back, he had checked out so long ago. It has been 3 months since he left. He does not want to go to counseling, he does not ask for us to spend time together, only initiates contact regarding the children, I feel like right now I'm just wasting my time. I feel like those baby steps are just unrealistic. I feel like all he is doing is waiting for me to prove him right so he can be justified in leaving. I feel like he had been building his case for the past year. How long should I continue this.
I am so negative...that was my main issue, and I cant break out of it.
So don't prove him right!
One thing that has been so interesting to me during this whole miserable journey is how my relationship with my H can seem like it's the worst it could ever be, and then takes a slightly more positive turn. Then goes back down again. One thing I regret is not giving him the space he needed. I would initiate contact just because the silence was too much to bear, which would make me feel better temporarily, but I probably made it much worse.
I feel the same way as you sometimes, that my actions were so bad that he had no choice but to leave. I regret not being nicer, and regret criticizing him. But I have also spent time thinking about why I was stressed out, or what I criticized him about, and that helps remind me that it's not all my fault. While I should have been less critical, I also had needs that weren't being met. I think in any relationship, you could easily switch the leaver and the leavee. If I was the type to give up or run from commitment I could have easily justified leaving, and made him feel that he made me so miserable that I left. But instead he was the one who left, so he gets to convince me that the death of the relationship is all my fault.
JulieH,
It has been only 3 months and it is still raw. I fully understand where you are coming from, and in a way you are like me a tad impatient :-).
Please focus on you and your kids, they need their mum. Do you have friends with whom you could go out for a couple of hours, and take your mind of things?
Unfortunately mind is a powerful thing, and if you keep focusing on negative, you'll only see negative things! Change your mind to positive. I promise it will get better.
Sending you positive vibes :-)
GAL has been a little difficult. I depend on family to babysit while I work, so to ask for extra help is often a little too much. They are not easy kids to watch. one of my sons, while quick and witty and fun has some sensory issues that a lot of people just don't get. My husband is not committing to set schedule. I tried to push for every other weekend, but a lot of times he will just come Saturday afternoom and drop them off Sunday morning. I am hoping this will get better. If this goes to court there will be set times and schedule so I could make plans, take classes, maybe even work extra. I have this fear he will ask for 50/50 to avoid paying child support and then have his mom take over all the child care (something I am sure she would love). But everyone says this won't happen. He seems to just want them at his own convenience. Work has always come first. Maybe I am vilifying him though and this won't happen.
Truth is, often times when I do get some spare time I end up crawling in my bed depressed and just reading over these forums!
Lonelee
Thank you again. You have personified my husband and reminded me that this is about him too. He had actually been asking for space for the past year and I would pursue with relationship talks and requests for reassurances. I would even do this when I knew he was consumed with work or after his car broke down etc. (although things like this were constantly happening so there was no other time)
The true 180 for me is to not be negative. This is so challenging to me because it is how I was raised. We worried about everything constantly. And this situation is very hard to handle. Sometimes I can think of some positives when I read a great quote or hear some good advice but I am not consistent. Honestly those good feeling might last an hour, I need to embrace positivity and make it part of me but truly don't know how to do this daily.
Tiny doc
Yes. I go back and forth constantly. I blame myself and then I blame him. Of course we both contributed. And your right and I like how you worded it..." He was the one who left, so he gets to convince me that the death of the relationship is all my fault"
Maybe they were more hurt or have more courage and initiative then the left behind? Sometimes it is necessary to be brave enough to "pull the plug" when there is no chance of revival right? To hold on is just wasteful and damaging?
I take so much comfort in the DR philosphy that while a marriage can die you can build a new one with the same spouse. The negative part of me reminds myself that this is rare : (
[quote=Rouky]
GAL has been a little difficult. I depend on family to babysit while I work, so to ask for extra help is often a little too much. They are not easy kids to watch. one of my sons, while quick and witty and fun has some sensory issues that a lot of people just don't get. My husband is not committing to set schedule. I tried to push for every other weekend, but a lot of times he will just come Saturday afternoom and drop them off Sunday morning. I am hoping this will get better. If this goes to court there will be set times and schedule so I could make plans, take classes, maybe even work extra.
Truth is, often times when I do get some spare time I end up crawling in my bed depressed and just reading over these forums!
Hi Julie,
Just a couple of things:
1) With regards to your H not committing to the schedule, do you mean he won't agree to one in advance or he breaks what has been committed to? Regardless, it seems you need to maybe be a little tougher here. Why does he get to push boundaries here and dictate this? You need some time for yourself. It is so important right now. If you make sure you are out and about on Sunday, he can't just drop them off, right?
2) You have to find a way to push yourself to get out. It makes a world of difference. The past few weeks I have not had a lot of GAL scheduled and I noticed how much more emotional I have been and how much I was dwelling on my situation. It does get depressing! It felt like the world was ending and I had nothing to look forward to. This week has been full of GAL and I feel more energetic, vibrant, positive, less emotional, and I am thinking about my situation less. I went out for drinks last night with a friend had a great time. I even noticed a very handsome man checking me out. It made me feel good! GAL will help you realize that life will be ok with out your H (if it gets to that). Spending time on this forum can be therapeutic, but too much and it makes it hard to get away from thinking about it all. You need a break.
Julie needs to take care of Julie a bit!!