Hi All,
I'm new here so please excuse newbie mistakes.
My situation at some points seems hopeful, then hopeless and so on....
I am married for 25 years with a 22 year old son. Life was always difficult as we married young and between our own mistakes and life not giving us a break we were under constant stress. I was immature and did the best I could to survive with the mentality that a 25 year old has at the time (wife + house + son). To cut a long story short I screwed up and she was talked out of separating a few times. We then entered this tunnel where you stick to a routine not happy but just live day by day emotionally surviving. Fast forward to the last 5 years I met a person who was fun and desireable and the complete opposite to my W and started an A that ended last December. I was no longer happy with this double life and wanted my wife back for better or for worse. A couple of years ago we had a bust up and she emotionally said to give it a go. I had been neglected physically and emotionally by her and with harsh words turned her down maybe more because of the way she said it than anything else. I now regret that decision. Looking back I now see her reactions with sad images on FB she had and her increase on dependancy on friends. She was inevitably heartbroken. I felt worthless and broke her heart.
Anyway this year I decided to try and repair what was left of our marriage with a clean slate. She never knew about the affair officially, she says people told her something was going on with someone we both knew, no more. For some years now I have been sleepng in another room, we do talk and whenever I travel she always wants me to tell her if I arrived safely etc. On ocassions she would say goodninght etc. This year I took her on a couple of trips with me which surprised me that she accepted and we slept in te same bed but with no physical intimacy. Things were still cold but we did have some fun. I began to see a light at the end of the tunnel but still did not know what other buttons to press to maintain this situation and obviously everything cannot be down to constant trips. She had lost her job 2 years ago and was depressed and focused entirely on sports which meant she used the gyms as an escape spending very long hours. Though minor we did begin to talk more.
Around begining of May I found out she wasn't where she was supposed to be so I placed myself in the area because a gut feeling was telling me something was wrong. She is a very methodical woman and any change in her is easily picked up. I waited and finally saw her come out of a bar in the afternoon with a guy who goes to the same gym. He is also married. She used the excuse of going early to the gym to meet up with this guy. FYI Last year I saw a message from this guy on her phone which seemed suspicious and after further investigation found out that contrary to what she had told me they had been in constant contact and according to her he was only a friend she could talk to. He has on his FB page that he is involved in a complex relationship. His wife has her status as married. I am a guy and know how we think so add 2+2 and was quite certain there was more. I spoke to the guy and asked WTF but he insisted they were only friends. A few days later I saw her act suspicious with her mobile phone so checked it and found loads of I miss you and need you messages on her whatsapp directory as well as some photos in lingerie, none were naked not even kinky type just the typical infront of the bathroom mirror you see kids do and post on a website. I confronted her about this her parents and our son found out and it really affected her and she apologized over and over. After lengthy discussions we decided to try and move forward, she said she never saw or met the guy since May (apparently this is true) I confronted him that if I ever saw him within 50 yards of my wife I would reassemble his legs. I think since then there has been 0 contact or at least from what I understand.
With us however and specifically me it has been a rollercoaster of emotions and I know I cannot throw any stone as I did something similar or maybe even more. I guess I am the unlucky one who did not get caught. We had a lot of arguments as the pain was raw. Judging by the date stamp most of this texting happened beginning of the year until say march and supposedly kicked off following the christmas party the gym had. She said by march and later and after travelling with me she saw signs that maybe a reconcilliation was possible. The kick in the gut though was that on her phone she sent this guy an "i miss you" message the day I caught her. Her excuse was that she missed having someone to talk to like she did with him. Anyway, after this incident and maybe prematurely we went on another trip but started with a big bust up as she would not touch me whilst I was trying to reconnect with her. The first time she was caught with the cafe thing she said lets start over clean slate but after the bust ups she has had more doubts. The the second night I went up to her to make up and one thing led to another but the following morning after I had gotten back from a meeting she asked me what was I thinking and felt offended that we had sex and that she felt pressured when at some points she even took her own clothes off. I was in a WTF puzzlement and after another discussion and steam let off the rest of the trip continued with limited physical contact but in general a pleasant trip.
After returning I was more determined to make this work. I got DB & DR and some others and made a picture of what to do. I also understood some basic facts a) I need to change b) I need to trust her c) I need to put the past behind me. The books were of great help. I have seen results from no touch to some light touching or brushing past without cringe, smiles, going out during the afternoon at weekends, and when I also improved my relationship with my son by partaking more she one morning kissed me on the cheek and said it was great the turnaround I had accomplished with my son. I am also helping more around the house without invading and generally on a more positive note. The issue however is that if I send a message and end with an icon that is a kiss she will send any icon or will not react. If I touch her she will not respond and the last trip we did last week except for the first day where we sort of had sex but with no after regrets from her it was in general a fun week with even a nice lunch in an italian restaurant. She even did somethings she would not normally do like selfies and other stuff but in the last hotel we had double beds and slept in different beds and still no touching by her. If I touch her she will not pull away but will not respond. Add to this the fact that during discussions she even said she contemplated some plans which would of meant being with me so in general things seem positive.
My main issue however is the no touching and if she is with me because she has no other solution owing to her being unemployed or because she really wants to make a go of this. I am worried that the same way she travelled with me in the beginning she also sent this guy pics and then met him so she can also be deceitful now even though I admit things between us now seem much better than they did then.
Fed up of this no touching lark I told her saturday I think we should sell the house because she in the past she said the ILY but not ILWY and with this no physical contact thing I am afraid to end up with a half marriage or someone who needs me not wants me. I want a full relationship not roomate type.
We talked again today and I explained my fears and she says she needs time and always said she needed time. I am therefore really confused as to her intentions, If she needs time or does not love me like I want her to how can she plan to do things like considering move abroad with me knowing there is still this issue. As for other small matters, yes, we do seem to spend more time together, she does seem to have these dinners that she then cancels or does not attend, she no longer goes to the gym on weekends like she did before, though she wants to do competitions so training will be part of her life which I can accept if it is not a substitute or excuse to be away, she also did mention about going to see a movie (she is not a movie fan).
Am I breaking the rule about once things seem to be going ok demand too much too fast? Should I back off and do as Michele says, more of what works and less of what does not? Do I become more loving and attentative and just give or draw a line and expect her to make the next move? During the discussion today she mentioned she believed there was somebody in the sidelines for me. I told her there was no one but do I let this jealousy bug continue or prove to her she has my individed affection (which is the truth). She says she is happy I have found new friends and should spend time with them (though she thinks one of these friends in this group is the one in the sideline) and yesterday when I received a whatsapp message at an odd hour (brother in law)she got uptight about the phone during dinner and threatened to walk out. Feeling I had she was affected thinking it was from another female. In my books this means jealousy = feelings = positive reaction and not indifference but I don't know really.
Sorry for such a long story but 25 years is a lot to sum up.
Any advice or help truly appreciated before I make more blunders.
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH. Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Welcome aboard Maximus! Awesome name btw. Cadet will be here in a minute with some extremely useful reading material.
Sorry you're here. It's a hell, but one populated by really caring, wonderful people.
PP
Thanks Pigpen, I like your name too though it does sound like a name Kevin bacon would use
Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka
that I totally agree with.
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.
Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
Hi Pigpen & cadet I have both already thank you but I do find difficulty in knowing which strategies to apply in my case.
Hello Maximus,
I'm so sorry for the situation you are in.
It can be tricky when trying to figure out which strategies to apply at certain times.
It would be extremely helpful to know what your next move should be. Please call me to discuss our program at 303-444-7004.
Cristy
Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004
Hi Guys,
Don't know if I did the right thing but as you know I have been living and working from the spare bedroom (stay at home self employed) for the past years. The walls keep getting smaller and smaller so last night I went into the main bedroom laid down, said goodnight and went to sleep. she did not say anything but this morning she was really p*****ed off and I mean really p*****ed off sowe had an argument. I told her I did not do anything wrong to continue being exiled from the bedroom and was planning to carry on sleeping there with or without her.
We had at lunchtime 2 arguments more ( i spoke calmly) where she said we should sell the house instead of waiting for our son to finish some studies as she originally wanted and I told her ok. The second argument after she got back from an errand I told her (according to the ultimate loss) that she was right, we live in 2 different worlds and relationships. In my world I face bills and keeping the home together and in hers she enjoys doing her sports and concentrating on that and hers is the real world whilst mine is the fantasy world. I need to concentrate on my world and either she was in or out. If she cannot be supportive then at least not be a distraction.
I also told her she can live her life how she pleases I will not interfere, not kick her out as it is still part her house and I do not want to be cruel and spiteful to take advantage but I do ask she do the same. She wanted me to define stay out of our lives and I asked she only cook and clean while I pay the bills and such as she is not working. I also told her that I will erase her from my business acount and we will only share the general account so she can do shopping and such. She however took all cards and threw them away in the bin. She also told me that when I come back from a business trip she will not be here and to discuss wih my son how to organize ourselves.
I think I know what her next step will be and that is involve our son.
Have I done the right thing and applied the right strategy? I Do want her back but I am tired of sleeping in this room, having a nice day only to go back to it as well as still not have real tender moments.
She is all about time time time and while she treated me well she never makes any loving gesture it is just the SSDD. If we go shopping and I am paying she will continue looking around and then go the shop door and wait outside. If we are walking to the shops from the car or exit some place she will many times start walking leaving me a few meters behind while I close up the car or whatever and have to catch up. I dont understand these actions when you mix them with other where she does act normal.
I have this gut feeling she feels she needs to stay with me because she has no other options but on her terms and indefinitely until she may decide to become a WAS or WW?
Any input would be appreciated.
Maximus - thanks for stopping by my thread.
I don't really know what to say about your sitch right now. But I AM curious if you've read or are familiar with the 5 love languages. You say you have good days but then no "tender moments". So I'm interested to what you consider to be a "good day". From your description of her behavior, it sounds like you value quality time. But maybe she doesn't...? What do you think?
I am also curious about your second "argument". I'd be worried about trying to put too much control on her. Why would you tell her she has to cook and clean? Do you want a maid or a wife? From the way you describe it, it sounds like you said "I'm going to cut off your income, control all the finances, and all you have to do is cook for me and keep the house clean!" What a deal.........
While you think on that stuff, what kind of goals do you have? What types of 180s are you working on?
Hi Azzork,
Thanks for replying.
I did read the 5 love languages and during our previous discussions she always mentioned about enjoying cooking and cleaning for us and I told her it was something I appreciated her doing. I tried to do some of the housework but she was very protective of it and told me to not carry on.
To your question what I consider a good day it is just a normal day with no arguments maybe go for a walk together the ssdd things a normal marriage does, I even used to go shopping with her because it was time with her. Since things went up [censored] creek she spent hours and hours (still spends a lot now) going to the gym. I imagined it was her way of letting off steam and having her own space. After recent developments I also imagine it was used to spend time with OM but cant confirm it. The way I see it, if you have a nice day, go out with your wife, go to the movies, have a dinner, travel abroad together, etc... how can you come back home and then go back to "you in the spare bedroom and me in the main bedroom". If I just want to giver her a hug because and ask for her hand she puts that "here we go again look" and if I put my hand on her lap while sitting next to her she will not return any form of contact. So with all this in mind I consider myself in a half marriage. I've lived it for years, heard she is not interested in sex or contact with anyone but does this with OM so the way I felt is that i'm being taken for a ride. She will not let our son sleep a day in a spare bedroom if he was going through our situation but doesnt flinch hinting we need more time and not do anything rash as our son needs 1 year.. so 1 more year basically living in the spare bedroom?.
As for the second argument, it wasnt even an argument, it was more like I admitted things were not going ok and we both wanted 2 different things from a relationship. we depend on my income only. I have to face the day to day and she never asks how are things she just concentrates on her sports and going to the gim 5 days a week for about 8 hours a day divided into 2 shifts. I made a real effort that she knew about and didnt say no when I bought her a watch used by runners (300$). The same watch I later saw in one of those pictures. The attitude we had walking and talking about the watch, which model, etc was like any normal couple. That same day I still slept in the spare bedroom and not long after she took a selfie with it on.
Anyway, as to your question.... she said where do we draw the line. I said I would like her to continue doing those things she said she liked so we try and maintain an organized home seeing she doesnt want any contact and I had and have thrown in the towel. Of course I dont want her to be a maid I want her to be my wife but if she wont commit to a full marriage and this is about keeping face for a year then if I am still to be the man of the house then she should continue to be the woman. Especially if she isnt working. Whats more I didnt say I was going to cut off her finances. What I told her was I was taking her off the business account I have. She would still be in the home account where I put money for the general household expenses and what she needs (hairdresser, clothes, etc). What I was and am not going to finance anymore are any extras. If she doesnt want a full marriage I think its unfair to demand from me a full commitment as well. And FYI I do control all finances but she had all cards with freedom to spend as she saw fit. Only change now is no more extras.
Its not a deal I agree, but then its not a deal to say we can act like a normal married couple. You can wine and dine me but all you get is a room mate/housekeeper. I am not interested in sex or contact in general and offer no guarantees as to when or if I will in the future.
Yesterday she was all upset and angry but then posts on whatsapp profile the lines "weve come a long way from where we began" from a song I love, leaves the bedroom door open because I said no matter what I was going to still sleep in OUR bed. I arrived late from gim and continued working and was too tired to see an angry face so slept in the spare bedroom.
She heard me speak with the travel agent about cancelling her ticket for a trip I had organized as part of a busines trip to Rome and straight away came saying if it was really over. Yet when I ask her to tell me her feelings, what she wants.. to come clean she doesnt. She seems unable to say "look i want to make this work so lets roll up our sleeves and get to work" or just say "i dont love you anymore". I just need to know where I stand. That's why I think she is using me. She has no income and only her parents house to go and it does seem a bleak future. But then so does living a sexless, intimateless marriage in a spare bedroom.
My goals right now are concentrating on my job and not making my son aware of these problems and continue the work I have done so far in trying to be the best father I can. Since I told her this I feel a little better each hour and told her I would not be going to her parents bbq next sunday because it seems false and also that during my trip tomorrow I would a NC for those days. I neded to disconnect 100%.
This morning she said to maintain contact with my son (which I had intention to of course) whilst away, we go to the bank to take her name off our accounts (we did) and she was going to move into the spare bedroom (which I told her was a mistake) because it defeated the purpose of hiding this from our son and because the spare bedroom is also my office.
As for 180's, quite straight forward, looking after my physical appearance, going out a bit more (nothing excessive) I never pleaded, begged etc. The contrary, the moment everything exploded I told her to get out of the house, took her key and it was only the intervention from my son and in laws that things cooled down. The only similar thing I did was admit I from my part thought it could work, wanted it to work but it was up to her. I have been waiting and been hopeful only to see this. More of the same like in the past so grew tired.
During the past I had moments of anger and let fly during the period after until the steam blew off and then promised to let go of the past as it was not getting me or us anywhere. Any discussions from that moment were about present issues not past ones. I have tried to be close and treat her well and do those things that women want and when we do it also makes us feel better as at least I feel I am contributing.
Sounds odd but its a bit like Cinderella... you work hard for the marriage, everything seems ok during the day (if we forget contact) but then come night time we are back to reality.
Any way hope this throws more light.
Thanks again.
Cinderella - wow, that's it, in a nutshell, isn't it?
I'm in the same Limbo as you Maximus. Cinderella. Tough work but no fairy godmother....
HI Sandy,
Could do with some help please to understand my wife? I tried a variation of the ultimate loss (variation because I cannot call her a real WW or WAS) but it did shake her to the core. Last update today was it was my Bday on Sunday and today she gave me a bracelet she had ordered. I said thanks and gave it back as I have never used bracelets in a long time even though it looked nice. I know it may sound callous but she has a history of making me return presents even when my son was younger standing there watching his mother open the present to pull a face and said she didnt want it because she never uses it or doesnt like it or it was too expensive and make me return it. So much so she took the ilusion of giving presents in the house away from us. we on the other hand do the polite thing, thanks and treasure it.
This is not a revenge tactic but at this moment I really do not have the time, patience or mood to be correct. Just real.
After viewing your posts I think you know much better than me what goes through a woman's mind... I dont
Thanks
So why are you asking?
What were you trying to do?
Hi Cadet... sorry dont understand your question.
Max,
I think what Cadet is trying to say is.....If it wasnt a revenge tactic, then wth was it?
Seemed a little tit for tat to me.
Hang in there bud
Max
Once you are detached it really doesn't matter cause you are not worried about what she thinks or does.
For me - she cant hurt me any more and she can hurt my kids however that is not too good a strategy for her.
Take the focus off of her and put it on yourself.
Make sense?
Hi Guys,
I think I know where the problem is. If you didnt read the previous posts I put then it could lead to confusion.
The objective is to try and keep her but not at any price and not wait for her. As I said in previous posts the focus on myself did make changes to the point she thought I had OW or was close to. We did grow closer and share some nice moments. The problem is the physical barrier. She will not get into any sort voluntarily. Result is it is back to square one only now we do interact more but 0 physical interaction of any sort. Neither when we argued did she or does she clearly say I want in or I want out. Loving Icons are also a no no from her.
I told her my feelings and decision and she got emotional and even posted lines of a song I love on her whatsapp profile. She has the key but wont use it so I have given up trying.
The only thing is that the same way we miss those signs things are going wrong at the beginning I dont want to miss those signs she is trying neither while caught up in my self focus.
Distancing yourself as a strategy may be good so long as you have clear if you want to lose the objective or not.
Dont know if you understand this?
Thanks
The objective is to try and keep her but not at any price and not wait for her.
Then what is your objective?
Try to keep her but with changes in how our marriage was and how it should be. Also not wait for her to take forever. Result... I start getting on with my life but not lose sight of her indications she is beginning to take those steps.
Forgot to mention .... know where line is from being distant to not over do it.
I'm sorry but I don't understand.
What is your number one goal? With no qualifications. If there was one thing you wanted, what would it be?
goal relation wise is make W want to have loving relationsip with me.
goal relation wise is make W want to have loving relationsip with me.
Great. (Though I'm not sure you can make her do anything. Your goal is to HAVE a loving relationship with your W, yes?)
Do you think giving her present back to her immediately gets you closer to that goal?
I'm also curious why you have so many qualifications on time and such. Your goal doesn't have to be your goal forever. But I would SET a goal and then CHANGE your goal of it changes. Say, in a year, reevaluate your goal and see if you stiil. Have that goal or not.
Azzork,
I think I understand you but..
Agreed I cannot make her do anything but how I act and who I become can and did change how she acts with me. Who i was got me here. Who I am now becomng could get me out.
Giving her the present back immediately (later would make no sense) may not get me closer but accepting it I felt wouldnt either. Just give the impression things are cool and she can relax. You think I should accept the gift?
For me time is an issue because I have waited so long I just see myself in a year in the same rut.
I agree the goal can change and it has ocassionally relationship wise and not. My concern is really... while changing not to miss those signs.
As for the re evaluation.... I really do not want to see myself re evaluating my relationship in a year's time.
I am leaving for a trip tomorrow, do you think I should do a NC for that week or just not initiate. Let her send the sms?
Thanks
My .02
If speed is your goal - you will fail.
Yes I would let her initiate contact and communication and mirror her.
another point ... then you guys think I should continue but give it time? How long is sufficient before you know there is nothing to do?
Giving her the present back immediately (later would make no sense) may not get me closer but accepting it I felt wouldnt either. Just give the impression things are cool and she can relax. You think I should accept the gift?
I don't think you should do anything differently now. I have a hard time seeing how rejecting this helps your towards your goal, though.
For me time is an issue because I have waited so long I just see myself in a year in the same rut.
How serious are you about meeting your goal? this situation is just not going to turn around quickly. IF it turns around, it could be a month, 6 months, a year, 2 years....nobody knows. I am concerned that if you are already putting time limits on this, that you aren't going to be willing to see this through.
Can you make it through TODAY? If yes, then don't worry about next year right now, you know?
I am leaving for a trip tomorrow, do you think I should do a NC for that week or just not initiate. Let her send the sms?
Whether you go NC for a week or not is not going to make a ton of difference. The key is DETACHMENT. NC is a tool we use around here to help to achieve that. I Would say it's probably good to do, but in and of itself, it won't change anything.
another point ... then you guys think I should continue but give it time? How long is sufficient before you know there is nothing to do?
Until you are ready to be done.
There isn't a set number of days.
Also, "doing nothing" for your relationship and moving on to a new relationship are not the same thing.
Maximus, welcome aboard! Glad you found this group, it is full of very knowledgeable and helpful people that have already walked a mile in your shoes, so listen to the advice!
Please do read all of the links in Cadet's post, it will answer a lot of your questions before they need to be asked. If you consider your M worth saving then it's a small thing to spend a few hours reading DB and all of that linked info.
To cut a long story short I screwed up and she was talked out of separating a few times.
You mentioned the affair which is a pretty obvious screw-up, but you also need to identify what other things you did wrong in the M. This is a very important step in DB'ing- determine what you did wrong and change those things.
I began to see a light at the end of the tunnel but still did not know what other buttons to press to maintain this situation
I kind of get this sense throughout your posts that this is a chess game of sorts to you. "I make this move, she makes that one, now I need to know what next move to make." But you're dealing with her feelings, there is no 12 step program for this. You need to right your wrongs and become the best person you can be, and do it not to save your M but because you need to. When she sees your changes she will initially think they are tricks to get her back, but eventually after months or even years she'll see you really have changed and THEN she might want a new relationship with the new you. Too many LBSs just want to go back to the way things were, but that's gone forever, it'll never happen. Your goal is to build a new relationship.
Around begining of May I found out she wasn't where she was supposed to be so I placed myself in the area because a gut feeling was telling me something was wrong.
I realize you're filling us in on some background info, but I'm not clear on whether all of the snooping and confronting (both on her and OM) that you mentioned in your OP are in the past or if this is something you're still engaging in. If so, it has got to stop. Snooping is VERY harmful to reconciliation chances. It always makes things worse. You'll never find out anything good, so the result is you'll be angry and upset, and she will be too. Do not talk to OM. Do not snoop his FB page, and especially his wife's! Do not spy on your W or snoop on her phone. Focus on YOU and making yourself the better choice.
I confronted her about this her parents and our son found out
How did her parents and your son find out? I suspect we know, and that too is very, VERY bad for your relationship. Don't try to "rally the troops" against her, it'll just look to her like you're manipulating everyone to believe you and not her, and ironically it'll drive her further towards OM because he's her only "safe haven".
With us however and specifically me it has been a rollercoaster of emotions
She is going through just as much as you if not more. It's common for LBS's to view themselves as victims, but the WAS is very much feeling the victim too. She feels you have abandoned her needs for years. She is hurting and afraid inside even if she doesn't seem like it on the outside.
The issue however is that if I send a message and end with an icon that is a kiss she will send any icon or will not react.
Your expectations are putting pressure on her. Stop with the ILY and cute little emoticons. She doesn't want that from you right now.
My main issue however is the no touching and if she is with me because she has no other solution owing to her being unemployed or because she really wants to make a go of this.
Your main issue is you're thinking only about you, not her. You want YOUR needs fulfilled. But what are her needs? Time and space. Does touching and intimacy fulfill her current needs?
As for other small matters, yes, we do seem to spend more time together, she does seem to have these dinners that she then cancels or does not attend, she no longer goes to the gym on weekends like she did before, though she wants to do competitions so training will be part of her life which I can accept if it is not a substitute or excuse to be away, she also did mention about going to see a movie (she is not a movie fan).
Those are what Michele calls "baby steps" in DR. That is PROGRESS. You talk like things are hopeless, but then you list all these positive steps and you seem oblivious to how important they are! These are the BEST you can hope for! Baby steps are exactly what you want to see.
Am I breaking the rule about once things seem to be going ok demand too much too fast?
Yes you are. You need to be PATIENT. This is a marathon and you're still at the starting line.
Should I back off and do as Michele says, more of what works and less of what does not?
Of course.
Do I become more loving and attentative and just give or draw a line and expect her to make the next move?
Do not be more loving and attentive, that's pressure and she has told you she wants time and space. So give THAT to her. And don't wait for her to make the next move, this isn't a chess game. Just work on you and let things unfold how they will. Quit obsessing over the relationship (I know, easier said than done!)
Regarding going back to the bedroom, no it wasn't wrong. You never should have left to begin with. If the WAS doesn't want to sleep in the same bed then fine, THEY can go sleep on the couch, in the basement or in a spare room.
The second argument after she got back from an errand I told her (according to the ultimate loss) that she was right, we live in 2 different worlds and relationships.
I'm not familiar with "the ultimate loss", but in general you need to be careful about mixing different approaches together. Your W will perceive it as some kind of strategy (tricks) on your part to get her back. It looks dishonest.
Have I done the right thing and applied the right strategy?
If you see it as a "strategy" then no, it's not right. Work on you. Make PERMANENT changes to yourself. Quit being controlling and manipulative, she sees right through all of that.
She seems unable to say "look i want to make this work so lets roll up our sleeves and get to work" or just say "i dont love you anymore".
All LBS's want some kind of definitive answer from the WAS. What you need to understand is she is in turmoil inside. If you went inside her head it would be like you're in a boat being thrown around in a violent storm, lightning flashing, rain pelting you, wind whipping you about. Somewhere close you can hear waves crashing against rocks, and you don't know how close you are. Yet you expect reason and logic from her! Instead what you get are inconsistent and confusing statements. Why? Because they are getting thrown like projectiles out of the storm. This is why she needs TIME and SPACE. YOU CAN'T END HER STORM. Only time can do that.
Understood about gift but I am still puzzled.
are you implying correct strategy is continuing as before but being more focused on myself and not initiate anything. Continue like this until I realize I am not getting anywhere and then call it quits?
IF it turns around, it could be a month, 6 months, a year, 2 years....nobody knows. I am concerned that if you are already putting time limits on this, that you aren't going to be willing to see this through.
Absolutely right. Michele says in DR to allow one month per year of marriage. You've been married 25 years I think you said, so that would be 25 months of recovery. This of course is only the most general guideline, every sitch is different. But her point is you shouldn't expect progress in days, weeks or even months. Years is a more realistic timeline. I have a feeling many more marriages would be saved if the LBS had more patience. Often the WAS does express interest in reconciling but it's usually years later, and the LBS has moved on by then. It's unfortunate.
are you implying correct strategy is continuing as before but being more focused on myself and not initiate anything. Continue like this until I realize I am not getting anywhere and then call it quits?
The overall process is laid out in the books, yeah?
Set goals ---> do things to try to meet your goals ---> reevaluate and set new goals
thanks
to the point and understood what I am doing wrong (i hope).
I will see how to approach this the best way I can and put into action your comments. All your comments make more sense than my own reasoning
thanks guys.
I also know I have to control my impulses or urges. I admit they do get the better of me. I did not realize about the 1 month per year time frame. curious.
Thanks again
I also know I have to control my impulses or urges. I admit they do get the better of me. I did not realize about the 1 month per year time frame. curious.
Hello Maximus,
Yes, you do, but it also takes a lot of work, determination and time. I had a very hard time with that once my W left and filed for D. Besides the support on this forum, one thing that has really helped me control my impulses and urges is forcing myself to go out and GAL. I have found it really helps!
Good luck, my friend.
Bob
Understood about gift but I am still puzzled.
are you implying correct strategy is continuing as before but being more focused on myself and not initiate anything. Continue like this until I realize I am not getting anywhere and then call it quits?
I really dislike that word "strategy", because it tells me you are implementing tricks to get your W back and then you'll go back to your old ways. She'll see right through that and it'll drive her farther away. You work on YOU. Period. End of story. Make yourself "the spouse only a fool would leave." Right now you are not that. You need to be, but it's going to take a long time. Do you have the patience for it?
I do.
I love her
She's worth it.
by strategy I mean course of action .. wrong choice of words.
Keep fighting for your marriage. It is worth it!
Bob
Thanks Bob and you guys, really appreciate the help.
Its just sad that you meet the nicest and most supportive people in the saddest places.
Hi Guys,
thought I'd give a quick update:
The other night we had a heart to heart.
I told her I didn't want to end up like her... depressed, unfulfilled and disapponted in life and everyone. Hiding from a half marriage in a gym or for a time relying on a 3rd party.
I wanted to be happy, be in a full marriage where I was involved both emotionally and physically. I did not want to end up looking for consolation with a pro or OW. I was 48 and wanted what remained of my life to be normal and in general happy. I was a good guy and saw who I was and who I was becoming and thought I deserved better than this. Whatever relationship I was going to get involved in had to be the full package, the real deal.
Right now each one of us had control of their own lives as individuals but marriage wise she had a say.
I also accepted the gift, thanked her and told her I was returning to our bed. I had not done anything to be exiled for so long and had as much right as her and ended it by saying that I do not know how this was going to end but arguing over bedspace and gifts was not the answer.
We went to bed had some small talk about events and our son and fell asleep.
The next morning...
She woke up as usual before me, then did I but come her time to go to the gym she was still doing things around the house and then began to move my stuff from the main bathroom to our private one in the master bedroom where we slept. Unexpected.
As I left for my trip I thanked her (she began to tell me not to start) and I interrupted her by saying I appreciated she was still here and it meant a lo to me and began to leave. As I turned round to close the door she was in the doorway and came up and gave me a peck on the lips and wished me a nice trip. It was not smooth as when things were good but I am NOT complaining. For the first time in years I was speechless. Too much too sudden.
I will never understand women but now feel more pressure to not c.o.c.k. it up.
I still wonder how the change as I do not feel as if I exactly did anything special or mindblowing and am sure I broke a few rules here.
I know that some other things i did do were done thanks to DB rules so once again appreciate the advice. If it hadnt been for DB I would have done all the wrong things for the right reasons.
THanks...
Hi Guys,
thought I'd give a quick update:
The other night we had a heart to heart.
I told her I didn't want to end up like her... depressed, unfulfilled and disapponted in life and everyone. Hiding from a half marriage in a gym or for a time relying on a 3rd party.
I wanted to be happy, be in a full marriage where I was involved both emotionally and physically. I did not want to end up looking for consolation with a pro or OW. I was 48 and wanted what remained of my life to be normal and in general happy. I was a good guy and saw who I was and who I was becoming and thought I deserved better than this. Whatever relationship I was going to get involved in had to be the full package, the real deal.
Right now each one of us had control of their own lives as individuals but marriage wise she had a say.
I also accepted the gift, thanked her and told her I was returning to our bed. I had not done anything to be exiled for so long and had as much right as her and ended it by saying that I do not know how this was going to end but arguing over bedspace and gifts was not the answer.
We went to bed had some small talk about events and our son and fell asleep.
The next morning...
She woke up as usual before me, then did I but come her time to go to the gym she was still doing things around the house and then began to move my stuff from the main bathroom to our private one in the master bedroom where we slept. Unexpected.
As I left for my trip I thanked her (she began to tell me not to start) and I interrupted her by saying I appreciated she was still here and it meant a lo to me and began to leave. As I turned round to close the door she was in the doorway and came up and gave me a peck on the lips and wished me a nice trip. It was not smooth as when things were good but I am NOT complaining. For the first time in years I was speechless. Too much too sudden.
I will never understand women but now feel more pressure to not c.o.c.k. it up.
I still wonder how the change as I do not feel as if I exactly did anything special or mindblowing and am sure I broke a few rules here.
I know that some other things i did do were done thanks to DB rules so once again appreciate the advice. If it hadnt been for DB I would have done all the wrong things for the right reasons.
THanks...
Hi Guys,
thought I'd give a quick update:
The other night we had a heart to heart.
I told her I didn't want to end up like her... depressed, unfulfilled and disapponted in life and everyone. Hiding from a half marriage in a gym or for a time relying on a 3rd party.
I wanted to be happy, be in a full marriage where I was involved both emotionally and physically. I did not want to end up looking for consolation with a pro or OW. I was 48 and wanted what remained of my life to be normal and in general happy. I was a good guy and saw who I was and who I was becoming and thought I deserved better than this. Whatever relationship I was going to get involved in had to be the full package, the real deal.
Right now each one of us had control of their own lives as individuals but marriage wise she had a say.
I also accepted the gift, thanked her and told her I was returning to our bed. I had not done anything to be exiled for so long and had as much right as her and ended it by saying that I do not know how this was going to end but arguing over bedspace and gifts was not the answer.
We went to bed had some small talk about events and our son and fell asleep.
The next morning...
She woke up as usual before me, then did I but come her time to go to the gym she was still doing things around the house and then began to move my stuff from the main bathroom to our private one in the master bedroom where we slept. Unexpected.
As I left for my trip I thanked her (she began to tell me not to start) and I interrupted her by saying I appreciated she was still here and it meant a lo to me and began to leave. As I turned round to close the door she was in the doorway and came up and gave me a peck on the lips and wished me a nice trip. It was not smooth as when things were good but I am NOT complaining. For the first time in years I was speechless. Too much too sudden.
I will never understand women but now feel more pressure to not c.o.c.k. it up.
I still wonder how the change as I do not feel as if I exactly did anything special or mindblowing and am sure I broke a few rules here.
I know that some other things i did do were done thanks to DB rules so once again appreciate the advice. If it hadnt been for DB I would have done all the wrong things for the right reasons.
THanks...
Last night had a bust up with W over the no intimacy thing. I have been giving this a lot of thought and to be honest I think it was staring me in the face but I was completely missing it.
I see other H&W enduring a lot of crap but still ML even when they know their S is with OW/M. Some of them even get hugs and kisses while things are tense.
If things are better on one level where you talk, smile, laugh, sleep in same bed and there are hints from your S of a future together why is it so damn hard to give a hug, kiss or some other sign of affection....unless of course you don't love the person as a lover or spouse.
I always initiated contact but never got a reply and even in bed if i touched her i noticed it was uncomfortable feeling. Here also lied my confusion, on the one hand being loving and her friend made us advance to this stage where we maxed out. If I changed the action and detached it created some tension so following MWD advice I did more of what worked and less of what didn't or did I?
Anyway I told her last Monday I was not going to keep on being in a half marriage. For her it does seem perfect as it was the type of marriage we had until now (me giving her space and everything I have to offer money wise). The problem was when I found out about the EA. So I see again a pattern of comfort for her where she again has everything with the only price now that I sleep in the same bed. She btw has been out of a job for 2.5 years.
I therefore called her out, If I was to live in a half marriage being friendly but not being able to get what I find a deal breaker - affection - then why should she have all the benefits of a 100% committed wife if she still feels this ILYB... emotion. The moment she decides to take the step to really committ will she also have my full 100% commitment.
Obviously I can't employ the same emotionally detach symptom so I pulled her first privilege. Took away her smartphone and gave her a normal phone where she can sms and navigate and call but its not the S6 anymore. her reaction was really really disturbing. She blew a fit, threatened to break my PC which I use for work, struggled to take it from me but with no luck and ended up kicking, punching and scratching me. I did not react and let her hit me (did not hurt physically as I do martial arts and weights and have a 70lbs weight advantage over her). I have never laid a hand on her. Once she was finished she got dressed, lef and drove off in her car. That was early morning and 4 hours later arrived home to do house chores.
I don't know if I did the right thing but I really am tired and running very low on fuel. I have a chance to change country and live elsewhere but it is a big step and I do not know if I have the strength to do it.
Doing so also has a lot of complications as our son is still at home and would have to either move abroad with me or go live with his mother at his grandparents appartment (says he would not do that). Additionally I would still have to pay off a small amount.
I am really torn in 2 and have no idea what to do.
Yes I love her, no I do not want to D her but if you divide the relationship level in 2 parts with A the day to day friendly interaction with B the intimate physical interaction we would be in say A7 B0 how can I be expected to live a married life with these differences?
I have merged your threads together as we like to stay on one thread until 100 posts, it is easier to follow along that way.
Hi Cadet noted and thanks
That's a long post, and I have many thoughts, but it's hard to get it all replied on my phone. Here's some thoughts:
1) have you read 5 Love Languages? You keep referring to "half a marriage", but I think you're missing the point. For you, it seems, affection is measured in physical touch - hugs, kisses, ML, etc. It's copletwly possible that she shows and RECEIVES her affection in different ways. For her, maybe spending a day together makes her feel loved and feel like she's loving you.
2) you can't just put your foot down and force her to change on your timeline. You can't say "you need to have sex with me or you can't have a smartphone." How do you think that is making her feel? You said you had a heart to heart less than 2 weeks ago. And now you're expecting things to move at a breakneck speed. And you're PUNISHING her for not going at your pace.
I'd advise you to really think about what you want. Do you think that doing these kinds of things are getting you CLOSER to those goals? I can't possibly imagine that it is.
why is it so damn hard to give a hug, kiss or some other sign of affection....unless of course you don't love the person as a lover or spouse.
Azzork knocked it out of the park here.
You are defining love as physical touch,
and maybe she does acts of service to express love.
I must admit that having a person in your life that
has the same love language is an awesome thing.
It does not always work that way as the end of my 28 year
marriage can prove.
Maybe it is time to learn more about Love Max.
HI Azzork,
I read the 5 languages of love and think I discovered hers which are acts of service. Whenever we had a discussion it would be out there at the front of her complaints of things she does for us because she likes to. That was the first area I started exploring first and did see improvements but I also said kind words, tried to spend as much quality time as possible and be physically affectionate (not sex).
More than a heart to heart I told her what I wanted and did not want my marriage to be like. Like this. Empty and unfulfilling. To be honest and looking back it was me doing the most talking. She listened and only picked on some remarks she didn't agree with or to poke at. I never really heard her say that she wanted this to work. I would say that if we are to have a life together bla bla she would keep quiet. Sometimes she would ask a question about something discussed earlier in the future of a possible move sort of implying a notion of coming as well. When we had a discussion she changed the whatsapp profile to include some meaningful lyrics. However hand on heart I never heard her layout any rules or conditions about a reconciliation. It was more like she is tagging along keeping quiet. When I then say something she quickly refers to the fact she never made any promises. This is true. She also used to say that she does not love like I want to be loved and why dont I find someone who does.
I am therefore really lost and agree these actions or backslides lose any ground covered. My concern however that I do not if I am being played as option B until she finds a job, maybe OM (though doubt it) or if she really is intent on trying to make this work in her own way.
She does have some issues with people, when she was made redundant no one really maintained any contact with her not even suppliers who were buddy buddy, her facebook has about 60 people mostly by her requests and her life was centered around going to the gym. She did start to spend more time at home as I said earlier and things were smooth but then the moment I initiate a physical contact hold her hand (she will go limp wristed says its childish), in bed if I spoon she says I give off heat and have to back off, if i put an arm around her waist or leg she will move around to a position where I can no longer hold that position so we break contact. If i dont touch her she will go for a long time sleeping in that position. When I left for a trip she gave me apeck and when I got back and tried to give her a peck she pulled to one side for the cheek saying about morning breath. Im not all about sex, I also like those small hugs and things and dont ask for earth shattering signs of contact but a squeeze here, small hug there fills my tank and lets me know she cares.
The way I saw it was that if I am upset for something then during that period no contact is normal but if things are going fine then surely some contact even minor should be there no matter what your love language is.
As I said before my concern is really why she is here, and from that maybe apply the correct attitude detach or continue the tlc until one day she cracks in the mid/long term future?
we have not had meaningful physical contact (not only sex) for many many years. I tried as best I could to get us through some hard times to a more stable life to only wake up one morning and find out someone else had filled her love tank and only to continue accepting gifts and going on trips while at the same time keeping the EA going.
If I were to go for B and contnue with TLC to find out I had been played again I would be devastated so I am just afraid of getting hurt.
The smartphone was maybe not the best call but I saw it as continuing to give her the whole package in return for a small percent.
I am at a crossroads and really lost
Maximus -
You said this:
What characteristics would you expect of a "fulfilling" marriage?
Which of these are you getting? Which are you not?
Azzork,
I believe each marriage and person within has a different expectation of what they want.
What I have now is a bit more than 3 months ago superficially speaking. Intimacy wise I can touch her but she will not respond. I can hold her hand but she will not close her grip. She will not initiate any contact no matter how small. I am not even talking about sex, that at the mo is Sci-Fi.
Only reason I am sleeping in MB is because I read here it was important so I decided to move. She got the hump but learned I was here to stay and she had 2 options, the spare or the couch.
A month before everything blew up she wanted an expensive sports watch so I did some numbers told her it was expensive but got it. I didnt get a thanks or hug or anything. I let it slide. When I discovered the pics a couple of them were with her wearing it.
The week before everything went up **** creek she sent me images of some stickers with phrases she put on the bedroom doors and I complimented her. I thought that was a good sign. The day before S day we met inlaws at supermarket and she proudly showed them the new company vehicle I got.
On S Day we had a normal cool day at lunch, she left happy said bye to us as she supposedly left for gym. And then I catch her with the OM and see that she sent image with words .. I really miss you ... that very same day.
As you can see, superficially for some these co actions as a couple seem positive but with me looking back they mean nothing as there was no gesture, loving action, I don't know ... something more intimate or personal.
What I have now is the same with a minor improvement in our interaction but still zero affectionate wise.
She thinks I am just referring to sex no matter how many examples of non sex related I give she could have done.
Without this reassurance everything else is just shaky and I cannot move ahead. She won't even tell me to STFU, that she will give it a go or that she wont. when I read other posts I see the WAS or WS wanting out, getting a life on their own. She can't so the more reason I feel she is trapped and whenever she gets a chance will fly away and again this feeling of being used which I consider worse than an EA or PA. The others happen and you get caught up in strong emotions. With this it is more premeditated and calculated.
Another point is that my company wants me emigrate next year with 2 possible locations and next week I will have talks. If I felt secure about her and me I would postpone as much as possible as she will have issues regarding her family even though she would benefit professionally and I think as a couple it would also be a fresh start. If she wants out I would count my losses, sell the appartment and move to a fresh start even though I know it will mean her ending up a divorced 47 year old, living with her parents and no income in a country with high unemployment rate. Add to that our son also wants to emigrate. Thats hurts me a lot and I really really dont want that to happen but I am also tired of living in an insecure relationship.
Anyway, last night I told her to think about what she wants to do. I don't want to end this but can't keep on living like this as everytime I bring it up I end up being the bad guy. If I leave it alone she will again get comfortable with this type of relationship as she has done for years and i will be stuck which I dont want to be.
Thank you for the recap. I understand most of that.
But in all of your posts your focus is on the negative. I'm trying to understand your goals. What is your ideal marriage. How far are you from having it? Objectively.
Objectively speaking i want her to stay with me as a loving and faithful wife.
I suppose if I close my emotions and put a smile on everything and continue as until now we can go back to a superficially happy relationship without the things i miss. In a short time. How far we are from a real fulfilling relationship I imagine still many months away.
Azzork,
Reading between the lines I think you are telling me to contnue as is and hold it out? Put bluntly?
Not exactly. You keep referring to two parts of a marriage - the daily activities and the physical touch. You've said you're living "half a marriage". I contend that a fulfilling marriage is much more than just these two facets. I'm asking you to consider this so that you can see what your wife has or hasn't been offering you to date. From that, you can understand what you want and we can work all together to figure out how to help you achieve it.
Nothing will change unless and until YOU change. But what and how to change depends on your goals.
Make sense?
It does make sense.
IMHO A fulfilling marriage to put in words is complicated and varies depending on the viewpoint of each individual but it has one common denominator, the parties are happy with it.
In my situation neither of us are.
I also recognize I overstressed the physical part and may have thrown you off (I am still learning about myself so please have patience). I consider the correct word to be affection in all its forms, be it actions, words or any other whereby you let them know you want them near you. Even problem sharing as strange as it may sound I would include because if you find your W opening her heart about her problems to someone else and not share them with you I find that a rejection and lack of trust. By sharing these problems with you they in a way are letting you know how they feel even if you cant do anything but listen. To me this creates a bond and an indirect message that im in there. There is a connection, much in the same way of a physical action. I do not know if you understand me.
Today we had a bust following a message she received. After the initial outburst a few hours later of really being tired I realized a few things.
1) What was done in the past was done. I cant throw a stone neither. The truth is now what happened after everything blew and there were changes only dynamited by my reactions on handling the EA and having to adjust to a severe knock in trust and confidence.
2) She does not fall into the category of a WAW or WW and is not neglecting the house, our S or not taking care of me as I read in some posts.
3) She will go out with me, she spends more time at home and wants to be less surrounded by people because she is sad or depressed.
4) She never adjusted/accepted losing her job and went from being someone in her mind to another that is totally dependant on others and got into a depression that led to where we are now.
5) I was blind and with no communication did not realize how deeply hurt she was and is as well as her plans. Now I know and can act.
6) The constant arguments though opening a crack to look inside what she is feeling also take a heavy toll on our R. This must stop.
7) I told her she seems to have a profound depression but should not handle it alone. She has a S, H & Family that love her and always have and always will be there but she needs to reach out to ask for help.
8) Self pity was never her style and hiding behind activities to keep the mind occupied is fine if it's temporary but after 2.5 years she has to make choices no matter how hard they are. Either accept her situation or find alternatives and discuss them....with me as well
9) There are alternatives and good ones, it just means she has to come out of her comfort zone but we are here to stand by her. As MWD said.... more of the same doesn't work, its time for a change. Her current situation each days makes it a little more overwhelming and seem hopeless. Time for that change.
10) Some of the strategies (expression) I opted for worked for me to make me a different person (I shall not say better) and things in my life have changed positively. I believe if she applies changes she will see the benefit too.
11) I cannot abandon her and not only because of her employment situation or she would have no where to go. That would be pity and not love. Instead because I made a commitment to honour love and protect. I have flailed with 1st, never stopped with the 2nd but sure as hell will not neglect the third. As my W and all that that means she needs my protection now more than ever. From herself. And I plan to step up. She wouldnt do that to me.
12) She wanted space and that I wasnt giving it to her. I reminded her that the last time I gave her almost a year of space we ended up how we ended up. I will step back with some conditions but she should use it wisely. We are sinking and another hit to the waterline will seal our fate.
I made these points known to her more or less as written and told her that we cannot guarantee how our R will end but if we are to suffer or feel pain then lets feel it whilst creating something so it lessens instead of whilst destroying something so it gets worse.
I hope that by reading these points whenever I have doubts I can stop myself from being a d**k.
As for the goals, I only have one at the moment. we have a trip within a few weeks that I would like her to come with me.
As for the other goals I really have to think which small realistic ones to set. I will have to think on that but her coming with me would be a positive step.
I wonder what you think Azzork.
It does make sense.
IMHO A fulfilling marriage to put in words is complicated and varies depending on the viewpoint of each individual but it has one common denominator, the parties are happy with it.
In my situation neither of us are.
I also recognize I overstressed the physical part and may have thrown you off (I am still learning about myself so please have patience). I consider the correct word to be affection in all its forms, be it actions, words or any other whereby you let them know you want them near you. Even problem sharing as strange as it may sound I would include because if you find your W opening her heart about her problems to someone else and not share them with you I find that a rejection and lack of trust. By sharing these problems with you they in a way are letting you know how they feel even if you cant do anything but listen. To me this creates a bond and an indirect message that im in there. There is a connection, much in the same way of a physical action. I do not know if you understand me.
I understand. If you have read the 5LL, then I think you can understand that there are five ways that people can give and receive affection. My point was that while you feel that she isnt showing her affection through physical touch, she may be trying to express it in other ways. Ultimately, I think you should try to reinforce positive behaviors rather than punish negative ones. I dont know, but it sounds like there are other ways your W is trying or has tried to do things for/with you - focus and reinforce these. Theres a ton of examples in DR.
Today we had a bust following a message she received. After the initial outburst a few hours later of really being tired I realized a few things.
1) What was done in the past was done. I cant throw a stone neither. The truth is now what happened after everything blew and there were changes only dynamited by my reactions on handling the EA and having to adjust to a severe knock in trust and confidence.
EAs are serious business. You cant just sweep something like that under the rug. But yes, whats done is done. Time to move forward.
2) She does not fall into the category of a WAW or WW and is not neglecting the house, our S or not taking care of me as I read in some posts.
I wouldnt worry about categorizing. The point of DB is to improve your marriage. WHether she has walked away or is planning to walk away doesnt make a ton of difference as to the process.
3) She will go out with me, she spends more time at home and wants to be less surrounded by people because she is sad or depressed.
try not to mindread. SHe may spend more time at home for any number of reasons. I wouldnt try to diagnose her as depressed.
4) She never adjusted/accepted losing her job and went from being someone in her mind to another that is totally dependant on others and got into a depression that led to where we are now.
Again, all mind reading. You didnt break her so you cant fix her. Its not your responsibility that she make a smooth transition. Of course, as her spouse, you should be supportive and helpful.
5) I was blind and with no communication did not realize how deeply hurt she was and is as well as her plans. Now I know and can act.
Understanding pain is important. Show empathy. Validate.
6) The constant arguments though opening a crack to look inside what she is feeling also take a heavy toll on our R. This must stop.
Agreed. And dont believe everything you hear anyway. Just because she says one thing doesnt make it true. But circular arguments help nobody.
7) I told her she seems to have a profound depression but should not handle it alone. She has a S, H & Family that love her and always have and always will be there but she needs to reach out to ask for help.
Nope. This is you trying to show her that shes not capable of handling herself. You arent a doctor, why are you telling her that SHE is depressed? And why would you say that you will always love her? Sounds like you are trying to control her too much here.
8) Self pity was never her style and hiding behind activities to keep the mind occupied is fine if it's temporary but after 2.5 years she has to make choices no matter how hard they are. Either accept her situation or find alternatives and discuss them....with me as well
Again, this is extremely controlling. What EXACTLY do you want her to do? She has found something that makes her happy, and youre telling her it isnt OK. This sounds like an ultimatum that is going to drive her to divorcing you.
9) There are alternatives and good ones, it just means she has to come out of her comfort zone but we are here to stand by her. As MWD said.... more of the same doesn't work, its time for a change. Her current situation each days makes it a little more overwhelming and seem hopeless. Time for that change.
Yes. It is time for a change. But it is time for YOU to change. NOWHERE in DR does it say that you should tell your spouse that THEY need to change. The whole POINT of DR is that it takes One to Tango. And the READER is that one. Dont tell her that she has to change!
10) Some of the strategies (expression) I opted for worked for me to make me a different person (I shall not say better) and things in my life have changed positively. I believe if she applies changes she will see the benefit too.
See #9
11) I cannot abandon her and not only because of her employment situation or she would have no where to go. That would be pity and not love. Instead because I made a commitment to honour love and protect. I have flailed with 1st, never stopped with the 2nd but sure as hell will not neglect the third. As my W and all that that means she needs my protection now more than ever. From herself. And I plan to step up. She wouldnt do that to me.
It is admirable to stand by your commitment. I think it's Painter that has a quote in her signature that I LOVE. But at the same time, you are selling her short. She is a GROWN woman. She doesnt and shouldnt NEED you. And I think it's a bit presumptuous of you to think that she does.
12) She wanted space and that I wasnt giving it to her. I reminded her that the last time I gave her almost a year of space we ended up how we ended up. I will step back with some conditions but she should use it wisely. We are sinking and another hit to the waterline will seal our fate.
This all sounds incredibly controlling. "Im going to give you space...but only every other Wednesday, if you check in with me first."
I made these points known to her more or less as written and told her that we cannot guarantee how our R will end but if we are to suffer or feel pain then lets feel it whilst creating something so it lessens instead of whilst destroying something so it gets worse.
I hope that by reading these points whenever I have doubts I can stop myself from being a d**k.
As for the goals, I only have one at the moment. we have a trip within a few weeks that I would like her to come with me.
As for the other goals I really have to think which small realistic ones to set. I will have to think on that but her coming with me would be a positive step.
I wonder what you think Azzork.
My thoughts are above in blue. My thoughts are that you want to put her into a box and only let her operate in the confines of that box. It sounds like you believe that if she is only permitted to think or do certain things in certain ways, that the end result will be that she loves you in the way that you accept. I think you are extremely hurt by the past and dont want it to go that way again.
Ultimately, I think you are setting yourself up for failure. You can (and maybe should) set boundaries around yourself, but almost all of the points you listed are you trying to set boundaries around HER and it just doesnt work that way. Read what you wrote again and before each point remind yourself that
YOU CANNOT CONTROL HER. Now, how do they sound?
I hope someone else comes on and can help too. These are my thoughts though.
Hi Azzork,
Thanks for reply and sorry for delay but I travel a bit and really have limited time sometimes to read and evaluate. I agree with your posts and yes, if she does show love in one way I shouldnt punish her for lack of sex and intimacy. I know, it is probably too early to expect that and demanding these things when everything else is not right is not a good thing. BTW we did last night, and not the most romantic or passionate by any means with a discussion to start off with but the previous time she left the bedroom. This time even halfway through she laughed at a comment I made and afterwards was close.
During the past weeks we have had some bust ups, big ones and then calm, after which we both mellowed out and changed our actions towards each other in a positive way. The latest arguments are owing to a new situation in my life which will change our lives drastically.
Another point that I have realized is that I do have this tendency to want to control everything in our marriage, her, how fast or slow we go, etc. I don't know why but I realize it. I agree I should STOP and cut some slack but her behaviour does irritate me a lot. Nevertheless I will make a serious effort to stop. It is not healthy.
As you know, she lost her job 2.5 years ago and she has found refuge in sports so as to spend less time at home, take her mind off things and the like. She is also trying to make new friends actively by friend requesting on FB, I hardly see anyone asking her. During our talks I told her that I was happy she was making friends as she should like we all should but sad that the little happiness she does seem to have she prefers to share with them and not at home. I also criticized her for not actively looking for work at the beginning and now after so long it is too litle too late with only 2 interviews to show. The result has meant all the weight of the house, finances, relationship and my own work responsabilities have rested on my shoulders during this time which I did not mind until I got criticized for my personality or behaviour by her. my only defence was that all this makes me act like someone I am not and do not want to be but I am tested daily, every time her phone pings, everytime she spends each hour away from home, everytime I have to make a decision, etc.
Anyhow I will be moving out of the country (confirmed) next year so have to sell the house and put it on the market next month. She is now at a crossroads. We argue because she asks a question now, maybe another in a few days but will not openly discuss this move and it is worrying her as she says it does not let her sleep. Our son is also wanting to move as there are no real career prospects and he does not want to settle for a minimum wage. An example of this was when I asked her if she had considered living with a good friend of hers and she replied if I was joking. I said no because she never made any clear indication she was willing to move. She replied that just because she didnt say anything did not mean she wasnt thinking about it. She also mentioned that our son should go with me next month to see what the country is like and I agreed but that it was funny that the person who really needed to have a look and convincing (her) was not coming. Her reply was that she was thinking of coming over with us but that she did not want our son to make a mistake even though she did not say anything. I am not a mind reader and she makes assumptions without hearing all the facts. I really do not understand this behaviour. She thinks about this move but does not want to talk about it. Just once she wanted the bullet points. her last comment was that her heart was saying stay and her head that she should go. I told her that I cannot live her life for her nor our son, I could live my life. What I did promise was to do everything I could to try and make her happy but it was her call. After so long doing it her way it seemed pointless to carry on and if she was affected at having no job as she said then doing more of the same expecting a different result in view of our current success was not the way to go. Maybe, changing the surroundings, having a job, earning decent money and seeing how it goes for a period, basically a fresh start would be better, especially if living as we are now she is not happy. She is aware that whatever she does I will be moving, and the house will be up for sale and she will have to go back to her parents house without income and as I also told her, I will move on with my life and her staying will inevitably be the end of our marriage.
She said that some days she was in favour going, others staying and so on and that going meant having what I called a whole marriage or lets call it normal marriage. I agreed, I told her that if she was to move I wanted a new and happy marriage and not the same crappy one we had until now. I made it clear to her that our life and our marriage as we knew it ended the day all this blew up 4 months ago. Nothing would ever be the same again. We now have a chance to build something new or let it go, she had a choice. I would work on any issues to correct them since we both agreed we wanted to just be happy.
Anyway, we cooled down, and started talking again normally about other things but I imagine she is in some sort of crisis, depression, etc seeing that she has no control of her life but still not wanting to take the bull by the horns and doing something about it.
Sorry about long text but so much happened these days.
Thanks for your help.
I am not in a position to offer advice but I hear your pain and frustration.
Listen to Az, he is trying to help.
I like you have a M that is missing some important stuff, but is still intact. Intact meaning no bomb drop and no separation.
I too am not willing to have an unfulfilling M, and have been close to pushing the issue. That day will come. Before that I want to really get a life and be really happy. I will use this time to also try improve R with W,
Ill add some thoughts in blue.
Another point that I have realized is that I do have this tendency to want to control everything in our marriage, her, how fast or slow we go, etc. I don't know why but I realize it. I agree I should STOP and cut some slack but her behaviour does irritate me a lot. Nevertheless I will make a serious effort to stop. It is not healthy. That "but" I bolded above...I find that using that "but" just invalidates what you said before. So it's like you know the first part is wrong, butyou feel justified in doing it because of the second part. Try to focus on the first thought and see how you can change your reactions and responses to the second part.
As you know, she lost her job 2.5 years ago and she has found refuge in sports so as to spend less time at home, take her mind off things and the like. She is also trying to make new friends actively by friend requesting on FB, I hardly see anyone asking her. During our talks I told her that I was happy she was making friends as she should like we all should but sad that the little happiness she does seem to have she prefers to share with them and not at home. Heres the same thing. Do you see it? You arent actually happy for her. Youre upset that she isnt sharing with you instead. I also criticized her for not actively looking for work at the beginning and now after so long it is too litle too late with only 2 interviews to show. The result has meant all the weight of the house, finances, relationship and my own work responsabilities have rested on my shoulders during this time which I did not mind until I got criticized for my personality or behaviour by her. my only defence was that all this makes me act like someone I am not and do not want to be but I am tested daily, every time her phone pings, everytime she spends each hour away from home, everytime I have to make a decision, etc. I understand what youre saying - it is certainly difficult when there is a big disparity in perceived "workload". This was a big issue in my M too. I just have trouble seeing how you are taking ownership for yourself here. The way this reads is that you are saying I act like XXX because YOU do XXX. It feels like you are blaming her for your response.
Anyhow I will be moving out of the country (confirmed) next year so have to sell the house and put it on the market next month. She is now at a crossroads. We argue because she asks a question now, maybe another in a few days but will not openly discuss this move and it is worrying her as she says it does not let her sleep. What exactly do you want from her here? You are right in that it is a big crossroads. She is deciding between her security and her perceived "happiness". How is she supposed to talk to you about this without hurting you by telling you the reasons that she doesnt want to go? Our son is also wanting to move as there are no real career prospects and he does not want to settle for a minimum wage. An example of this was when I asked her if she had considered living with a good friend of hers and she replied if I was joking. I said no because she never made any clear indication she was willing to move. She replied that just because she didnt say anything did not mean she wasnt thinking about it. She also mentioned that our son should go with me next month to see what the country is like and I agreed but that it was funny that the person who really needed to have a look and convincing (her) was not coming. Her reply was that she was thinking of coming over with us but that she did not want our son to make a mistake even though she did not say anything. I am not a mind reader and she makes assumptions without hearing all the facts. I really do not understand this behaviour. Like I said, Im not sure exactly what you expect from her. Everything she does towards moving will get your expectations up. Anything that she does towards not moving will cause you pain. By doing nothing, she avoids both. Shes both internally and externally conflicted. She thinks about this move but does not want to talk about it. Just once she wanted the bullet points. her last comment was that her heart was saying stay and her head that she should go. I told her that I cannot live her life for her nor our son, I could live my life. What I did promise was to do everything I could to try and make her happy but it was her call. No! You cant "make her happy". You can be supportive, helpful, attentive. But she is in control of her happiness. Not you. These kinds of comments will just come off as controlling. After so long doing it her way it seemed pointless to carry on and if she was affected at having no job as she said then doing more of the same expecting a different result in view of our current success was not the way to go. Maybe, changing the surroundings, having a job, earning decent money and seeing how it goes for a period, basically a fresh start would be better, especially if living as we are now she is not happy. The key to validation is understanding her side, and trying to be on it, but not to try to solve her problems. A lot of this, these suggestions, come off as you trying to solve problems for her. Thats not your job! She is aware that whatever she does I will be moving, and the house will be up for sale and she will have to go back to her parents house without income and as I also told her, I will move on with my life and her staying will inevitably be the end of our marriage. Sorry, but Im not sure ultimatums will work. I think she understands the deadline. But saying "she will have to go..." is just going to push her away. You are trying to solve her problems. There are many options she has - doesnt mean they are all good. But a lot can change in a year, so I wouldnt try playing out the options forward for her.
She said that some days she was in favour going, others staying and so on and that going meant having what I called a whole marriage or lets call it normal marriage. I agreed, I told her that if she was to move I wanted a new and happy marriage and not the same crappy one we had until now. I made it clear to her that our life and our marriage as we knew it ended the day all this blew up 4 months ago. Nothing would ever be the same again. We now have a chance to build something new or let it go, she had a choice. I would work on any issues to correct them since we both agreed we wanted to just be happy. I think dont be so quick next time to jump in that only SHE has a choice. You both have a choice. It sounds like youre saying "this is what I am doing. You can choose to join or not." Where is the compromise here? Where is the teamwork?
Anyway, we cooled down, and started talking again normally about other things but I imagine she is in some sort of crisis, depression, etc seeing that she has no control of her life but still not wanting to take the bull by the horns and doing something about it. Sorry to keep harping on the same points in my response here. You say she has no control of her life - but I think that its because you are trying to control it all. I think you are projecting your lack of control onto her. Just because she is being indecisive doesnt mean that she is clueless or out of control or depressed. I really think you need to think about the way this is written. Do you consider her an equal part of your marriage?
Sorry about long text but so much happened these days.
No problem for me! Write away!
Hi Azz,
As usual great comments.
I see that I do have to back off a lot and stop controlling.
It is true I cannot make her happy, just be as you say and hope that with that attitude it helps towards her being happy. But her happiness is I agree up to her.
I am happy she has friends but disappointed that she spends so much time away from home at the gyms, anything where she is needed has to be worked around those hours and as she chooses to not be a player then at least be a cheerleader, otherwise where is the teamwork?
As regards the moving I decided to never again touch the subject until the moment it is imperative that she finally jump off the fence. These kinds of actions require planning in advance, finding a new home, timetable of events, organizing the actual change, etc. At the moment things are still green so input from her is not really necessary at this stage, maybe a little enthusiasm would be appreciated but given the circumstances. When a comment does come up I do include the words us & we and she acknowledges but I leave it at that.
I never thought only she has a choice. We both have a choice to either work it out or not. I chose to work it out with her stay or leave. She has the same choice. What I do not choose is to carry on in a situation where I will continue to be unhappily married. If she wants to continue living her life this way, complain but do nothing about it then fine. It is her choice and I will respect that but not be a part of it. I consider this move that I HAVE to do as a fresh start to try something different for all of us.
So cruel as it may sound, I am doing it since as I said before, I HAVE to and she has to decide whether she wants to come or not. I only have Plan A, she has Plan A & B. The compromise is limited to the options we have. I am willing to listen and discuss any other options she may have that I have not thought of but here is where I go back to the point I made earlier about sitting down and talking.
The teamwork is at present non existent because she is just taking in info without sharing and I am trying to second guess as best I can. There will inevitably come a time when she has to say A,B,C or whatever and from then we can act as a team to reach the goal. Until then the left hand does not know what the right is thinking.
I agree that her silence may not mean she is clueless nor depressed and that I may come off as controlling her attitude but for the good part of these 2 years she has neglected basic duties that I have had to take over to avoid problems like forcing her to renew her licence otherwise we would have problems with the insurance company. I had to force her to do it telling her of the legal consequences if she drove without a valid licence and that it was either that or not touch the car. I then had to organize the medical, etc. The teamwork should have been her telling me she needs to do it so and if I could help her organize it because i handle these matters much better. So as you see, I can take her silence, withdrawal, neverending hours in the gym, etc but hey... at least make an effort to have your S's back if you know he is taking the brunt.
Another thing, I am not too convinced about this move and it is affecting me and making me nervous and I have shared this with her. I still think we have a lot to gain by moving but there are many uncertainties which make me nervous and I feel I am hit on all fronts. I have to work on my R and put emotional resources for those bad days when you question everything, I have to put resources on looking at the positive aspects of moving and how it will affect my R, life & S when I also question if it is a good move. I then also have to put emotional resources in trying to do my job as best as I can. I have been given a new challenge with a lot of responsability on my shoulders and cannot let personal problems affect my job.
Some days I feel secure and something happens to make me feel I am making the right decisions but the majority of the time I question every step I take knowing the implications of getting it wrong. After all, I am talking about my Life + Marriage + Career the three pillars we generally base our life in general on.
I try to talk to her and the general reply is it is a good move, it would improve my career and that I should think about me and do what I feel is right. The thing is anything I decide will inevitably affect those around me in a big way.
In final answer to your question, yes, I do think of her as an equal part of our marriage. I just wish she would too regardless of her job status. God knows the times I have and still do consult her and share things. The problem is she doesn't, she keeps her problems to herself doesnt do anything to solve them and then we find ourselves having to cover for her or let her crash and burn and learn the hard way (something you try and avoid if you love someone).
She just carries on with the same routine day in day out.
Today for example is shopping day and I generally pick her up at 11:15 from the gym, take her a coffee and we go do the shopping. She has some problems with her tendons due to over exercise so needs to visit a clinic to cure it for the next 2 weeks and has booked at 11:15 which is when she finishes gym. She asked If I had to do something at 09:00 to which I replied not really and she then said if I could pick her up at 09:00 as she has no class until 10:00 and do some shopping since at 11:15 is clinic time. This p***ed me off. I work from home so yes I can drop everything and leave, no one controls my hours but I politely said it would not give me time to finish off some things. I lied. She did not take it too well. To me she should have said can you pick me up at 09:00 I will skip class so we can do shopping and I can be at 11:15 at the clinic. THEN I would agreed. It is a compromise. She does this constantly, get people to work around her gym hours.
We all are tired of telling her to back off pushing herself, she is not a teenager but a 47 year old woman. Her achilles tendons are on the verge of giving up. She relentlessly continues. If they do snap she cannot do anymore of the stuff she does and will become miserable and again... at home we will have to bear the brunt of her anger.
Try to get her to stop and you are controlling, leave her alone until she falls and then you have to pick up the pieces. it is a no win situation. I told her explicity, if you damage your tendons you will be out for months. If you get a job request you will not be able to walk and will lose the job possibility. This affects us as a family unit since we could do with the money and she could do with a job that she seems to baldy want. In one ear out the other.
Any way glad to get it off my chest
Take care bro
More Blue! I see that I do have to back off a lot and stop controlling.
Good. Thats a start! 
It is true I cannot make her happy, just be as you say and hope that with that attitude it helps towards her being happy. But her happiness is I agree up to her.
I am happy she has friends but disappointed that she spends so much time away from home at the gyms, anything where she is needed has to be worked around those hours and as she chooses to not be a player then at least be a cheerleader, otherwise where is the teamwork?
As regards the moving I decided to never again touch the subject until the moment it is imperative that she finally jump off the fence. These kinds of actions require planning in advance, finding a new home, timetable of events, organizing the actual change, etc. At the moment things are still green so input from her is not really necessary at this stage, maybe a little enthusiasm would be appreciated but given the circumstances. When a comment does come up I do include the words us & we and she acknowledges but I leave it at that.
I think for now, the best bet is to "act as if" she is going to join you in the end. Positivity breeds positivity. I think the more you poke and ask and prod her, the more likely it is that she gets fed up and decides against it.I never thought only she has a choice. We both have a choice to either work it out or not. I chose to work it out with her stay or leave.
Right, but I believe that choice is fluid. Will you always choose to do that? I think probably not. So I wouldnt be so FINAL with saying "I choose to stay". It forces her into a defensive position right out of the gate. Either shes the bad guy or she chooses something that is currently leaving her unsatisfied. She has the same choice. What I do not choose is to carry on in a situation where I will continue to be unhappily married.
So, already, your bold "choice" has conditions. Thats why I think any grand proclamations are only going to hurt you. It isnt quite so black and white. If she wants to continue living her life this way, complain but do nothing about it then fine. It is her choice and I will respect that but not be a part of it. I consider this move that I HAVE to do as a fresh start to try something different for all of us.
I notice this a lot in your writing. Feeling like you HAVE to do something. Or are obligated to do something. You are under no obligation to do ANYTHING. You choose to do it. Now, some choices are easier than others: [color:#FF0000]I have this knife in my hand, should I stab myself wit it? yes or no? But you dont HAVE to move for your job. You could quit and find a different job, for example. Im not saying its a good choice. But if you think of things as choices instead of obligations, it will help you, I think. Lets revisit this up ahead. [/color]
So cruel as it may sound, I am doing it since as I said before, I HAVE to and she has to decide whether she wants to come or not. I only have Plan A, she has Plan A & B.
Have you read DR? I would recommend reading the section on The Beginner's Mind. I think you could learn a lot. The compromise is limited to the options we have. I am willing to listen and discuss any other options she may have that I have not thought of but here is where I go back to the point I made earlier about sitting down and talking.
The teamwork is at present non existent because she is just taking in info without sharing and I am trying to second guess as best I can. There will inevitably come a time when she has to say A,B,C or whatever and from then we can act as a team to reach the goal. Until then the left hand does not know what the right is thinking.
This is fair. But as long as you keep pushing, she is going to stay clammed up. You have to give her the space to process this. As you said, the time to make that decision is still a ways off. So, why do you need to know today? I agree that her silence may not mean she is clueless nor depressed and that I may come off as controlling her attitude but for the good part of these 2 years she has neglected basic duties that I have had to take over to avoid problems like forcing her to renew her licence otherwise we would have problems with the insurance company. I had to force her to do it telling her of the legal consequences if she drove without a valid licence and that it was either that or not touch the car.
So, back to making choices. Do you think that after the second or third time of you reminding her that she didnt know that she needed to do this? You said "if you dont renew your license, you cant drive" right? So what more did you need to do after that? You said: here is a choice you can make. Then you proceeded to make it for her by "forcing" her to renew. She's not a child. She's a grown woman. I then had to organize the medical, etc. The teamwork should have been her telling me she needs to do it so and if I could help her organize it because i handle these matters much better.
Huh? Your thought is "she needs to tell me to do it, because I do it better"? I dont follow this. So as you see, I can take her silence, withdrawal, neverending hours in the gym, etc but hey... at least make an effort to have your S's back if you know he is taking the brunt.
Im not arguing with you about this. Yes. In a healthy marriage, thats what should happen. But thats not where you are right now. But its good to know what you want. Another thing, I am not too convinced about this move and it is affecting me and making me nervous and I have shared this with her. I still think we have a lot to gain by moving but there are many uncertainties which make me nervous and I feel I am hit on all fronts. I have to work on my R
Nope. No reason to work on that right now. and put emotional resources for those bad days when you question everything, I have to put resources on looking at the positive aspects of moving and how it will affect my R, life & S when I also question if it is a good move. I then also have to put emotional resources in trying to do my job as best as I can. I have been given a new challenge with a lot of responsability on my shoulders and cannot let personal problems affect my job.
Some days I feel secure and something happens to make me feel I am making the right decisions but the majority of the time I question every step I take knowing the implications of getting it wrong. After all, I am talking about my Life + Marriage + Career the three pillars we generally base our life in general on.
The never ending self doubt is tough. We're all right there with you. But all we can do is try the best that we can with the tools that we have. I try to talk to her and the general reply is it is a good move, it would improve my career and that I should think about me and do what I feel is right. The thing is anything I decide will inevitably affect those around me in a big way.
You cant predict HOW it will affect them though. So I think she's right. Do what you think is best for you and for your son. Its easy to look back and second guess later. But do what you think is best. In final answer to your question, yes, I do think of her as an equal part of our marriage. I just wish she would too regardless of her job status. God knows the times I have and still do consult her and share things. The problem is she doesn't, she keeps her problems to herself doesnt do anything to solve them
Nope. She is doing something to solve them. Just not what YOU would do or what you WANT her to do. Her solution doesnt match your expctation so you call it doing nothing. and then we find ourselves having to cover for her or let her crash and burn and learn the hard way (something you try and avoid if you love someone).
As I said before, you dont HAVE to cover for her. If you act like her father and try to fix all of her troubles, she wont consider you as a husband anymore. Sometimes, I have learned, we need to let them understand that their actions have consequences. I thought I was being a great husband taking care of everything in my M, but I came to realize that by doing everything, she never felt equal, and always thought that I thought less of her. And so resentment on both sides grew. She just carries on with the same routine day in day out.
Today for example is shopping day and I generally pick her up at 11:15 from the gym, take her a coffee and we go do the shopping. She has some problems with her tendons due to over exercise so needs to visit a clinic to cure it for the next 2 weeks and has booked at 11:15 which is when she finishes gym. She asked If I had to do something at 09:00 to which I replied not really and she then said if I could pick her up at 09:00 as she has no class until 10:00 and do some shopping since at 11:15 is clinic time. This p***ed me off. I work from home so yes I can drop everything and leave, no one controls my hours but I politely said it would not give me time to finish off some things. I lied. She did not take it too well. To me she should have said can you pick me up at 09:00 I will skip class so we can do shopping and I can be at 11:15 at the clinic. THEN I would agreed. It is a compromise. She does this constantly, get people to work around her gym hours.
It is not a compromise. It is YOUR compromise. Maybe she had other thoughts and she thought that she was meeting you in the middle. Instead of getting angry, validate. Im having a bit of trouble following this situation, but in general, validation is much better than getting angry. We all are tired of telling her to back off pushing herself,
so.....stop. she is not a teenager but a 47 year old woman. Her achilles tendons are on the verge of giving up. She relentlessly continues. If they do snap she cannot do anymore of the stuff she does and will become miserable and again
My guess is that she is doing it to show you all that she can. The more you tell her to stop, the more driven she will become. ... at home we will have to bear the brunt of her anger.
Try to get her to stop and you are controlling, leave her alone until she falls and then you have to pick up the pieces.
No. You dont HAVE to pick up the pieces. SHE has to. You dont have to fix her. You dont have to save her. it is a no win situation. I told her explicity, if you damage your tendons you will be out for months. If you get a job request you will not be able to walk and will lose the job possibility. This affects us as a family unit since we could do with the money and she could do with a job that she seems to baldy want. In one ear out the other.
What if you told her what you want instead of how to do it. Start by coming from, Im concerned that ur income is too low. Instead of you cant go to the gym and hurt yourself so you cant work. Shes not working now, so why would she care? Youre trying to solve her problems insead of letting her figure them out. Any way glad to get it off my chest
Take care bro
[/quote]
Hi Azz,
I understand your comments about leaving her alone and respecting she is a grown woman.
What I find hard to understand is backing off say about the licence. She would still take the car and in case of an accident I would have to get involved. As for finding work, she said she couldnt handle it and stopped doing anything to even try and if I could. I took over sending her CV to job placement companies. All she focused on was going to the gym and getting into the EA. I cant see how in anyone's books that is doing anything to help get a job. She is BTW now actively looking after I mentioned she was doing nothing about it from what I saw. She couldnt say one piece of evidence that she had tried.
As for her tendons we did stop a long time ago.
As for today, we discussed about one of the gyms and the timetable came up of the classes. Some weeks ago she said she wanted to go to a class at 14:00 and I was upset because it meant eating alone. She would come at 11:30 do the food for me and my son, have a coffee and then leave. (I now know I should have let her do her thing). Now she also says there is a class at 16:00 so I ask her why she doesnt do it and she first said because she would not be here for our son when he arrived. I replied he is a grown man and if the food is done there shouldnt be a problem. Also, I would be here so he doesnt eat alone. She then said that before I did mind and got angry. So I told her I was wrong before and if she wanted to do it it was her choice and her life and I really had other priorities at this moment than argue about her gym classes.
later on, I casually asked if she was still going to go the gym I was at because I was paying for 2 people and it was pointless. She got upset and had tears and told me to do what I wanted. That something was up since this morning and when I said why did she get to almost crying she said she didnt she was just angry.
Looking back, the 3 issues I see that could have affected her are:
a) Not picking her up at 9 hurriedly as I did before
b) Telling her to do what she wants as it is her life (in general) and going back on my previous opinion about her timetable for the gim
c) Asking about removing her from the gym
I wonder what message I am giving out to her? Should I care?
I understand your comments about leaving her alone and respecting she is a grown woman.
What I find hard to understand is backing off say about the licence. She would still take the car and in case of an accident I would have to get involved. As for finding work, she said she couldnt handle it and stopped doing anything to even try and if I could. I took over sending her CV to job placement companies. All she focused on was going to the gym and getting into the EA. I cant see how in anyone's books that is doing anything to help get a job. She is BTW now actively looking after I mentioned she was doing nothing about it from what I saw. She couldnt say one piece of evidence that she had tried. If Im understanding, your opinion is that after reminding her once or twice, that she would ignore her license renewal and drive illegally? I have a hard time believing it. But I suppose it's possible. In my opinion, you could offer to help a little, but it sounds like to commandeered it to make sure it gone done. Same with the CVs. I would have said that you wanted her to look for something that she would enjoy. You can help her with reviewing the documents or something. But I think to just take over is not healthy.
As for her tendons we did stop a long time ago.
As for today, we discussed about one of the gyms and the timetable came up of the classes. Some weeks ago she said she wanted to go to a class at 14:00 and I was upset because it meant eating alone. She would come at 11:30 do the food for me and my son, have a coffee and then leave. (I now know I should have let her do her thing). Now she also says there is a class at 16:00 so I ask her why she doesnt do it and she first said because she would not be here for our son when he arrived. I replied he is a grown man and if the food is done there shouldnt be a problem. Also, I would be here so he doesnt eat alone. She then said that before I did mind and got angry. So I told her I was wrong before and if she wanted to do it it was her choice and her life and I really had other priorities at this moment than argue about her gym classes.
later on, I casually asked if she was still going to go the gym I was at because I was paying for 2 people and it was pointless. She got upset and had tears and told me to do what I wanted. That something was up since this morning and when I said why did she get to almost crying she said she didnt she was just angry.
Looking back, the 3 issues I see that could have affected her are:
a) Not picking her up at 9 hurriedly as I did before
b) Telling her to do what she wants as it is her life (in general) and going back on my previous opinion about her timetable for the gim
c) Asking about removing her from the gym
I wonder what message I am giving out to her? Should I care?
Who knows? Maybe it's cloudy? Maybe she slept badly? Maybe her leg is hurting? Could be anything. I wouldnt focus too much into it.
[/quote]
I agree,
Taking over and controlling is NOT healthy.
Thanks
I agree,
Taking over and controlling is NOT healthy.
Thanks
maximus I know you said that I should stop writing on other people's posts but I felt that as you have given me so much on my thread It would be only right To give you some advice ....
Now as we both know I am not the best at listening to advice and perhaps it seems that you too have this problem the thing that you have to realise just as I do ....your w is gone your marriage is over and just as I will have t get used to this you have to too
It is not what we want but it is not something we have any control on so buddy please for your own sanity let her go ...let her go and live her life the way that she wants to ...sure she might come back one day but you cannot live your life on this small hope.
Yes it will be tough being on your own at our age [censored] big time
Ghost
Oh one other thing
I notice in your signature you say
Sharing house W won't ask for separation or divorce
How long are you going live like this it seems the trust has gone from your relationship if she has had an EA and perhaps a PA do you really want to be second place
Hard as it is when the love goes a part of her dies inside .....but yes she has walked I do feel your pain
How sad it is for all of us we are all here for the same reasons it is not the fun club
It will be ok you can get through this but you have to let her go ..Do not crowd her this is not what she wants
move on do things for you do not worry about W stop persuading
Read the rules you were making too many mistakes I feel from what I have read you are just pushing her further away until she will leave is this really what you want
Go out get a life for you
Take care
Ghost
I agree,
Taking over and controlling is NOT healthy.
Thanks
I hope someone else comes on and can help too. These are my thoughts though.
Maximus,
I was going to ask you to read these:
The objective is to try and keep her but not at any price and not wait for her.
goal relation wise is make W want to have loving relationship with me.
I began to see a light at the end of the tunnel but still did not know what other buttons to press to maintain this situation
I also know I have to control my impulses or urges. I admit they do get the better of me.
I told her I didn't want to end up like her... depressed, unfulfilled and disappointed in life and everyone. Hiding from a half marriage in a gym or for a time relying on a 3rd party.
Obviously I can't employ the same emotionally detach symptom so I pulled her first privilege. Took away her smartphone and gave her a normal phone where she can sms and navigate and call but its not the S6 anymore.
Intimacy wise I can touch her but she will not respond. I can hold her hand but she will not close her grip. She will not initiate any contact no matter how small.
I didn't get a thanks or hug or anything. I let it slide. When I discovered the pics a couple of them were with her wearing it.
Without this reassurance everything else is just shaky and I cannot move ahead. She won't even tell me to STFU, that she will give it a go or that she wont. when I read other posts I see the WAS or WS wanting out, getting a life on their own. She can't so the more reason I feel she is trapped and whenever she gets a chance will fly away and again this feeling of being used which I consider worse than an EA or PA. The others happen and you get caught up in strong emotions. With this it is more premeditated and calculated.
If she wants out I would count my losses, sell the apartment and move to a fresh start even though I know it will mean her ending up a divorced 47 year old, living with her parents and no income in a country with high unemployment rate.
I cannot abandon her and not only because of her employment situation or she would have no where to go. That would be pity and not love.
I deiced to still add them as I think it would help, yet Azzork has hit the nail on the head:
My thoughts are above in blue. My thoughts are that you want to put her into a box and only let her operate in the confines of that box. It sounds like you believe that if she is only permitted to think or do certain things in certain ways, that the end result will be that she loves you in the way that you accept. I think you are extremely hurt by the past and dont want it to go that way again.
Ultimately, I think you are setting yourself up for failure. You can (and maybe should) set boundaries around yourself, but almost all of the points you listed are you trying to set boundaries around HER and it just doesn't work that way. Read what you wrote again and before each point remind yourself that YOU CANNOT CONTROL HER. Now, how do they sound?
Have you tried individual therapy or counseling?
I also deal with control issues and have benefited greatly with therapy.
How are things going for you today?
My situation is similar to yours and I understand how you feel.
Just dropping by to wish you luck
Hi Guys,
Things are complicated and I am thrown off.
she is not a WW or WAW as the EA does seem over, her actions have changed and when I did do some checks she was where she was supposed to be.
We are still adjusting and she says she needs time and space to work her s**t out. I am giving that to her and acting as a sort of lighthouse as sometimes I am now leading where she used to and taking control of the house or some chores.
For a woman who entered an EA and sent loving notes and inappropriate pics though not nude, she is anti sex on any level.
Crack a sexist joke it is not her cup of tea. Today we spoke about some boards with Calvin Klein models and G strings and how I bought her some fancy ones years ago when she looked great in them and she wanted to get off the subject. She doesnt like or watch erotic films but read novels with explicit sex scenes by a famous woman writer... megan somethng.
We still do not shake any sheets and she does not initiate at all any form of contact. I am divided as to continue giving her hugs and or spooning in bed or backing off. On the one hand I read woman need this contact that does not always lead to sex as they need to feel secure emotionally, etc. On the other hand I read backing off is the thing to do and let her initiate. I also read that intimacy, especially non sexual is something they treasure. Therefore her coldness gives me a bad feeling.
How long I will continue? Don't really know.
I need physical contact on all levels, I am not asking for the whole package now just real actions or proof that things will change.
I am worried that continuing like this we return to room mates or the sex-is-a-chore relationship I hated.
My final goal is pretty clear... if there will be no sex nor affection our R is pretty much over. It is unnegotiable. It is not control, just my desire. She can leave and live a sexless R with someone else or by herself. Not my issue and not with me.
Hope this clears this up.