Hi all,
First thread - Just need support Thread #2 - Yup, it stands for Rising Above It - I thread #3 - Yup, it stands for Rising Above It - II I am back for more. Here is a brief recap of where I stand. WW still involved with OM. I am dropping the rope and actively moving towards D. I am currently trying to balance living under same roof with WW, having five wonderful children who need my attention and the best PMA possible, a full-time job, the paperwork that is involved in the D process, an OM who is "gently" stalking me when I go out to run at night, with some GAL on the side.
I was not sure whether to start a new thread in the D forum, so I remain a newcomer.
RAI
I closed my previous thread with the following sentiment, teased out with Defacto's help: I get that there is no way to know how my W feels. I also realize there is nothing I can do about it, one way or another. What really frustrates me, though, is the fact that it affects me so much. It is just another reminder of how un-detached I am.
A case in point: I will be travelling for an extended vacation with my 2 eldest. In order to travel, I needed a notarized letter from my W, stating that she permits me to travel with the kids.
i.e. that I am not abducting them. So W came to see the notary in my office today. While signing the docs, she pulls out a catalogue from her new jewelry business and gives it to our office manager (who happens to be the notary). She is happy, smiling, vivacious, excited and energized by her new business. I am fuming. It is not enough that she is D-ing me. She needs to solicit my colleagues, fellow staff, and friends to build up her business. I also feel jealous that she is so happy (read: without me). I wanted to tell the office manager to trash the catalogue. But instead I calmed myself down and called my sister - who is very good and calming me down - and came back here to vent. I suppose any money she makes will be less I have to pay her. Also, her business is considered an asset in the D, thus I get a share.
I am so bitter. I want to scream out to the whole world and tell them what she is doing. What is wrong with me? I think it all comes from a very bruised ago. From my previous thread:
It hurts to know that there is someone who really loathes you. I know that I should not care, that what others think of me should not matter, that WW has to loathe me to justify her actions. Still it hurts. WW is worse that a stranger. I can converse and be civil with a stranger. I can't bring myself to be civil with her and she is doing such awful things. I feel sometimes that I am no further along than when I first got to this board.
There certainly are a lot of feelings to work through.
RAI
I Lifted this quote from Mozza, posting in Raliced's thread. Hope you both don't mind. It was just so a propos and really speaks to me right now.
I find your anger interesting. I had moments of anger earlier, a few months after BD, and I decided to feel them. I never took them out on WW, but I would not feel guilty for being angry at her. In fact, it helped me greatly to feel a little better and was likely instrumental in getting me to a better place each time. I encourage you of thinking about where this anger comes from inside of you and that might be triggered by the recent events.
The only difference is I am a few
years after BD. In fact, tomorrow will be exactly 1 year from BD #2. I have not thought about it much. A day like any other I suppose. I am annoyed by the fact that every time I think I will feel detachment or attain closure, something happens and detachment and closure are further away, again. After BD #2, where I found WW crouching in the back seat of OM's car, coming out of
his house, I thought to myself, "this is the closure I needed". But it was
not enough. I continued to pursue and spy and basically not detach. Then I found DB. Next month I will be two years into my sitch (BD #1 was in August 2013). Ugghhh. I am not sure how different I am from 2 years ago. Am I really rising above it?
RAI
Hmmm... really seconds guessing myself here.
WW is D-ing me, but she has no qualms about taking advantage of my connections at work to sell her wares. Is it cake eating? Should I stop it? Such chutzpah. I am really not liking her right now. She seems to have this sense of entitlement. She used my credit card to purchase snacks and desserts for her jewelry show. I don't know where she is getting the start-up funds. When I asked where she was going to get to money to reimburse me, she became indignant - as if it is my responsibility to put up the money for all her useless endeavors. Her previous business is still not turning a profit (none that I am seeing, anyway). Why is she starting another.
I am not having a very good day. Pretty lost in these thoughts.
I seem to have the hang of going dark. I have pulled away completely. I just can't seem to be civil or friendly with her.
Some more observations.
Of late, it has struck me just how public my M has become. Everybody has an opinion. I live in a small community. People seem unsure how to respond to the A. People are wondering why we have not yet D. I doubt anyone would understand DB. Many have told me they are "following my lead": while we are still a family, they are careful to alienate my W, even though they are disgusted by what she continues to do. Still others are probably questioning my self respect: why would I remain M to someone who is obviously and shamelessly unfaithful?
OMs W is probably feeling the same thing right now. I thought they already D, but I was mistaken.
What a mess.
RAI
RAI
Can I observe, what others think of you is their business not yours. You can choose if you like to ask those who you feel have value to you to comment and you can take that into account, what matters most is that which you think. I get the small town hot house, I have observed most people are more concerned about what you think of them than other ways.
If you want to stand that is your choice, if you want to stay M also your choice. If you want to D your choice too.
Similarly what you think is your choice, hence there is no need to apologise to me for your thoughts on my WH. In any case you have my assurance of forgiveness and thank you for the apology. I assumed that you were soothing and intentions were good. I have my own views on WH (some of which are unprintable), and in general there is no point in wasting my voice as I have sacked him as my H, it will have no effect on him, it will be damaging to me. So I let it go, I feel so sad for WH, it can't be a good place to be in his life. I pray for him that he finds his better self so that he stabilises for his sake and any further R of his is more complete.
I have no say in it, better concentrate on that which I can choose to change in my own life. So I think it is.
So feel your fear and go beyond it to achieve your goal of standing for your M and for yourself. Have your secret smile of knowing your goal and hold that to your heart, it has great value.
V
RAI, I'm sorry that you are still so tortured by your S after two years. This is a very long time to live under such stress. Obviously, living together makes it much harder to detach and move on. It is striking to see the change in tone on the boards when a WAS finally moves out. There is so much less to over-analyze every day, and it's easier to focus on oneself.
As for your changes, maybe you can try to list them. The list doesn't have to be long, though certain items may be more important than others. In my case, I'm closer to my kids, closer to my parents, more knowledgeable about relationships, more self-aware and in better shape. That's just the start. It's not so bad. So yes, we change, even though it can be difficult to see it on a given day.
The hardest part for me is trying to be "civil and polite and light and breezy" with communication with her - even with our kids. Does anyone else feel that way?
I know I have to, and do, but after all of this, it is very hard to just pick up and be friendly. In my mind she tried to kill me (emotionally) and now I just supposed to forget about all o that and just carry on.
She wants to make a big deal about being "fair" about time spent with kids, about money - we have to be FAIR. I think to myself - when is any of this FAIR to me or the kids? I did not have a voice in any of this nor did our kids. Why now is she concerned about fair?
To me it's like a kid crying about being an orphan after they have murdered their parents.[/quote] Ugghh. Heavy. I feel your exact pain. I know it is cliche on these boards, but I could have written your post myself. In fact, I have used the "orphan" analogy to describe WW many times. If you have read my thread you have seen my struggles at being friendly with W when I am constantly reminded of what she is doing.
I told my D9 about the D last night. Soo painful. I made sure W would be present to see the pain she is inflicting onn her children by her selfish and deliberate actions. W held D9 as D9 cried and all she could muster was "we are so sorry!". Not "sorry I have caused all of this with my selfish actions and am pushing for D", but "sorry we are all going through this difficult time right now", as if it is an unfortunate circumstance beyond all of our control, like cancer or a death in the family. It reminds me of an episode of Simpson's where Homer has gotten his hand stuck in a soda vending machine while trying to steal a can. He is about to have his arm amputated by the firemen when one of the firemen there asks: "Homer? Are you holding on to the can?", at which point homer removes his arm from the machine with no effort. For some reason, our WWs are willfully "holding on to the can" despite the damage that will ensue. Life is stranger than fiction.
----------------------------------------
RAI I saw this on HeavyD thread and it concerned me.
I would like to ask you if this was the best thing for your children?
V
RAI I saw this on HeavyD thread and it concerned me.
I would like to ask you if this was the best thing for your children?
V,
I am not sure to what you are referring? What concerned you? Was
what the best thing for my children?
I told my D9 about the D because the rest of my children know already. If I was her and I was the only one who did not know, I would feel terrible. D9 was at camp when we told them, and I did not feel it right that the whole family knows about the D and not D9. Also, I wanted her to hear it from me before she heard it from her sibs or a friend (yes, some of her friends know - I don't know how because friend's knowledge of this preceded me telling
anyone. One of her friends almost told her
at camp. luckily she told my niece instead who is older and had the good sense to tell this friend to hush up - imagine hearing about your parents D from a friend... at camp). Lastly, I am leaving with D13 and D11 on a trip next week and I did not want to tell her and then leave suddenly. I put a lot of thought into the timing.
I used the same script to tell D9 that I used for the other children - based on MWDs advice. I am also arranging for kids to see a psychologist.
Although it can be found elsewhere in my threads, in brief, I told D9 that Mommy and I have not been getting along lately (which she knows, because it is glaringly obvious) and that both partners have to want the marriage for the marriage to succeed and we don't have that - not blaming any one individual, not saying who did what, and also not lying and saying that it was a mutual thing, that Mommy and Daddy don't love each other. I still believe that love is a choice.
these...
W held D9 as D9 cried and all she could muster was "we are so sorry!". Not "sorry I have caused all of this with my selfish actions and am pushing for D", but "sorry we are all going through this difficult time right now", as if it is an unfortunate circumstance beyond all of our control, like cancer or a death in the family. It reminds me of an episode of Simpson's where Homer has gotten his hand stuck in a soda vending machine while trying to steal a can. He is about to have his arm amputated by the firemen when one of the firemen there asks: "Homer? Are you holding on to the can?", at which point homer removes his arm from the machine with no effort. For some reason, our WWs are willfully "holding on to the can" despite the damage that will ensue. Life is stranger than fiction.
...were just my thoughts on the matter. I did not verbalize any of it.
D9 cried, but after about 20 minutes, was better, seemed consoled. I don't think I alienated W in any way. V, you are scaring me. I hope I did not do anything wrong.
RAI
I am not trying to frighten you, heaven forbid. I am asking, not judging you. It isn't my place to do so, and I think you are reflective if questioned. You are a kindly thinking father that is why I ask.
What concerns me is "I made sure that W would be present to see the pain she is inflicting on her children by her selfish and deliberate actions. W held D9....."
Are you very sure that you did not try to punish W in front of your child?
My concern is for your D in this.
V
I am not trying to frighten you, heaven forbid. I am asking, not judging you. It isn't my place to do so, and I think you are reflective if questioned. You are a kindly thinking father that is why I ask.
What concerns me is "I made sure that W would be present to see the pain she is inflicting on her children by her selfish and deliberate actions. W held D9....."
Are you very sure that you did not try to punish W in front of your child?
My concern is for your D in this.
V
Re: "I made sure that W would be present", Sandi always says that in order for WW to snap out of the fog, she has to see the consequences of her actions. This is my rationale, although I definitely phrased it more harshly than Sandi had. I do think it is appropriate for W to see consequences.
As far as how sure I am that I did not try to punish wife...that is a tougher question. I am sure deep down I want to punish W. I am still dealing with anger and I am struggling hard to detach. that is no secret if you have been reading my thread. However, I gave my W notice the day before that we need to talk to D9. I explained my rationale vis a vis the timing of telling D9 (before I leave on my trip). She agreed that we have to tell D9 and agreed to the timing of telling her. At some level, do I want my W to feel bad? Probably. Although I don't know what is going on in her head, sometimes I feel like she doesn't feel
anything. Like she is still in a complete fog.
But when all is said and done, I truly truly truly do *not* think D9 emerged from the talk angry at her M. I also do not think D9 has a sense that one or the other of us is to blame.
Parenthetically, I do think that eventually the kids will understand and have full knowledge of what happened, regardless of what I say or do. My plan is not to tell children, but also not lie. Not sure of the mechanics of this, but I will cross that bridge when I get to it. Right now, kids are not interested in talking about things at all. I think there is a lot of denial in our house despite the revelation of the D.
I am not sure I agree with it, but someone advocated telling the children, or at least not defending or covering up WWs actions. I think it was GeorgiaBulldogs on DeFacto's thread, but I could be wrong. It is a difficult question for me.
RAI
Here is the post I mentioned about disclosure to children, in Ripken8's thread from 7/3/15:
Your wife is a wayward terrorist. There is no negotiating or compromising with a terrorist. They will just take advantage of you.
I'm concerned your children. Being introduced to the OM as though he is just a friend. He played a big part in the destruction of THEIR family. OM is not their friend and is not to be trusted.
I feel it is a disservice not to arm your children with the truth about their lives and allow and trust them to function within the truth as they see fit. They don't need all the juicy details but they should be aware of something like "one of several reasons that your mother and I are divorcing has to do with her inappropriate relationship with [full first and last name of OM]. You do understand that it's not appropriate for married people to date other people, right? Well I learned your mother was dating OM and, even though I was incredibly hurt I remained willing to try to save our marriage. Your mother and OM choose not to end their relationship so because of that and other private things between your mother and I we are where we are. I am not telling you this to motivate you to hate and I certainly don't want you disrespecting your mother or any other adult; however, I tell you this because I think it's important to be honest with you because this is your life too and you deserve the truth about what's going on around you here."
If you aren't sure then google information about telling children the truth. They need to truth to protect themselves. It's very inappropriate for you soon to be ex-wife to be sneaking a cobra into the home under the premise that he's her new supportive friend. I know you likely feel pressure to be kind. That being nice is the best way out or through this situation to a place where you and your STBXW can co-parent in ex-spouse harmony; but that's not going to happen unless she respects you. Keeping her secrets only enables more secrets. Be the parent where your children will seek and know truth. God knows, they aren't going to be getting it from their FORMERLY awesome mother.
So, I am pretty torn about things. Advice on this BB can be so conflicting sometimes.
RAI
RAI
Ok ... like any Forum ... there are going to be several people giving their advice ... and just as different the sitches, the advice too will be different and possibly conflicting.
Personally ... my son is 8. I understand the kids have to be told, however I was not going to do that until the D was final ... Just the way I approached it ... not saying you did wrong but I do think you had some expectation that your W would realize the pain and snap out of it ... even if she does its not going to happen for some time.
Like you, I did not lie, but it was not my place to spill beans. I sometimes can see the benefit of exposing the A with other situations, but in my case I did not feel this would 'shock' her out of it ... and would only make things harder if we were to reconcile later .. I will have to say my gut was right on this one .. the A ran its course. But at no time do I think you tell the kids "mommy has a boyfriend" My S figured that out on his own because of her actions and their R suffered badly, her circus her monkeys and now she is trying to fix all that.
Reading your sitch a bit ... yeah you have some anger there, I did to ... its hard not to. You mentioned the urge to punish ... let me tell you, that urge increases when she comes clean and wants to work on the M, I have had to really think about what I am doing and saying over the past month. I would suggest really getting a handle on that anger and urge .. for you ... its a weight and one you need not carry.
RAI
If you believe it's OK then I can go with that. You can always gently check D is ok.
I haven't posted on Defactos thread for a number of reasons, firstly I have never been sure the hard line stance proposed there is the best one and I am not strong enough or experienced enough to have the words. Secondly my WH was an abuser not an MLC and there is a difference. I also take the DB stance on not exposing an A. I don't know Rips thread so can't comment.
I do agree with GB on one thing, not lying or covering up an A even to children. I prefer a softer stance with less drama and more 'in sorrow than anger'. I don't know if GB is proposing open acknowledgement by both in front of a child. Truth darts are private things to me. I don't interpret others posts so won't comment.
Always children come first, I fostered children from difficult homes so I am very keen on looking after the children above all. There are other parents here so I hope there will be extra feedback.
It can be confusing to take advice given to another poster and apply it to your own sitch. I have made that mistake and it backfired on me, so I choose to ask on my thread and then I consider the choices. So I get that, wanting to do your very best at all times. I know you come from a loving place with your children and I always concern myself with hardline advice. There is another BB called MB with more exposure A strategies but I chose to be here because of the more spiritual stance, it fits more with my personal philosophy of growth and personal development and self responsibility.
I do believe it is not my job to make WH feel bad. Yes to be angry because that is my feeling and I deserve to feel good anger. It's what I do with it that is important to me.
There is a post by MWD on exposing As.
A message from Michele Weiner-Davis
It has come to my attention that some people on this message board are strongly suggesting advice that runs counter to my Divorce Busting philosophy and practice- the notion of exposing a spouse's affair to family members. While this plan may be helpful to one couple, it would completely backfire in other marriages. I have worked with many couples where the betrayed spouse revealed all the information to friends and family with extremely detrimental outcomes. First, when the unfaithful spouse discovered this had happened, he or she decided to file for divorce and it became a final decision. Secondly, there are those situations where the couple began to heal from the infidelity and get their marriage back on track, but the family members undermined the couples' efforts and even "disowned" the betrayed spouse. This made life-long commitments after infidelity a very challenging outcome because few people like giving up their family and friends. So, while I do believe that betrayed spouses need support from loved ones when dealing with such a distressing situation, it is ESSENTIAL that the information about the affair be shared CAREFULLY and with full recognition about the possible risks. I always recommend that, if information is shared, the person with whom it is shared is marriage-friendly, even in the face of infidelity. Nonetheless, it's still important to recognize potential risks.
V
RAI-
I'm dictating this into my phone at my daughters swim lesson so I'll have to keep it brief. It sounds to me like you did OK. You've written extensively about how many people in your community already know about the affair. It sounds to me like your kids would've found out sooner than later from someone else. And I'm sure everyone agrees it's better to hear this from the parents. I'm also fully on board with age-appropriate honesty. I'm also fully on board with age-appropriate honesty. None of us were in that room with you, and it's always a little hard to judge tone from writing.
I know you're thinking about what's best for your kids, and you did the best you could. Frankly, there's no way to have this kind of conversation that won't result in some hurt for the kids. It just stinks.
Keep your head up.
Haven't seen you around for a while, are you ok?
V
Hi V,
I have some other posts to reply to but I will get to those later. In the meantime, V, I did not want you to worry. I am doing pretty well. I am actually abroad with s11 and s13. Although I miss the rest of the kids, I am having a blast. It also makes it much easier to GAL and go dark.
Thanks so much for checking up on me. It means so much to me to have friends out here that care so much about me. You are one class act.
(((((Vanilla)))))
I hope you are doing well. It's pretty late and I have 3+ hours of driving tomorrow so I gotta split. I will write some more updates when I have some time. I also promised to write down some ways in which I have improved. Forthcoming...
RAI
PS I will stop by your thread when I have a moment, too.
In your own time. I am keen to know how you are
V
Hey RAI,
just checking in to see how you are doing. Hope you are hanging in there.
How was your trip?
Hi RAI,
I’m just swinging by to let you know you are in my thoughts and prayers.
Please hang in there . . . you will make it!
Bob
U-turn, My vacation was awesome. Thanks for asking. Possibly the best vacation of my life. S13 and S11 loved it. But as amazing as it was, it is all the harder coming back to my sitch. So hard to detach. I have submitted all the discovery paperwork for the D. I want and need to move forward. I don't want to do mediation. How can I do mediation and negotiate with someone whom I do not trust. There is no good will - mutually. There is so much anxiety surrounding the process. However, I know that I will not be able to detach adequately until we are no longer under the same roof. Still a lot of anger towards WW.
As for your changes, maybe you can try to list them. The list doesn't have to be long, though certain items may be more important than others. In my case, I'm closer to my kids, closer to my parents, more knowledgeable about relationships, more self-aware and in better shape. That's just the start. It's not so bad. So yes, we change, even though it can be difficult to see it on a given day.
, I have definitely changed in certain respects:
1. I am more loving and lenient towards my children. I am recognizing each of their primary love languages and emphasizing them. I am trying to spend more time with each of them. I have more patience for them. I think I am seeing results.
2. I am in better physical shape. This was apparent on the many hikes I did during my vacation see below. I also look leaner and more defined. a long way to go still.
3. I am closer with my family, especially my sisters and mother. Part of it is that I need the support, and may still be self-serving, but I like to think that even when all this is over (if it ever is??) that we will remain closer than before.
raliced, it has been a few weeks, but thanks for the reassurance regarding telling D9. Thus far, kids know we are getting D. We don't talk about it much although S13 asked me if he will still see me daily after D. I told him no. Very painful. The (older) kids must all be going through their own he-- due to lack of information. I am also not sure what to tell them yet. I really need to work on getting them in to see psychologist.
Bob, when you tell me I am in your prayers, I know you really mean it. thanks so much.
I had been reading all of your threads briefly over my vacation (and some others, namely Fogg and HeavyD). I know we are all struggling in our own ways. I am so thankful that we have each other. Sorry I have not had too much time to visit your threads. Hopefully will have some time to catch up soon.
Best,
RAI
Well today is my antiversary and anniversary. exactly two years since BD #1, which coinicided with my 15th wedding anniversary. I have good days and bad days. But overall, I feel pretty good today. I like the person I am becoming. I still struggle with detaching, some days more than others. I really don't feel glum today. Although I am still married and living under the same roof as my W, I do not feel very married at all. I feel single, and ok with it. I would not say I love being single - after 15 years of what I thought was a blissful marriage - but it's not terrible being single either. That said, In the back of my mind I am beginning to visualize how happy I could be with someone else. I miss intimacy - a lot. I miss the feel of a woman's skin, the scent of woman, the curves of their body - the neck especially, for some reason. I know that I am a work in progress, but I think that there is already a woman out there who will appreciate me. I just need to get through this awful D stuff. I hope I can trust again afterwards.
I saw OM today. I did not have the shakes. No pit in my stomach. NNo nuthin'. It felt good to be released from his grip. I hope my apathy towards him lasts and gets stronger. He was with his STBXW. I am not sure why his STBXW would want to be seen with him. I guess she has her own issues to work through. OM is so weak. I can see it from across the parking lot. He is so desperate for any kind of validation. He needed my W to give it to him, I guess. I think they deserve each other, as sad as that sounds.
Well today is my antiversary...and anniversary. exactly two years since BD #1, which coincided with my 15th wedding anniversary. I have good days and bad days. But overall, I feel pretty good today. I like the person I am becoming. I still struggle with detaching, some days more than others. I really don't feel glum today. Although I am still married and living under the same roof as my W, I do not feel very married at all. I feel single, and ok with it. I would not say I love being single - after 15 years of what I thought was a blissful marriage - but it's not terrible being single either. That said, In the back of my mind I am beginning to visualize how happy I could be with someone else. I miss intimacy - a lot. I miss the feel of a woman's skin, the scent of woman, the curves of their body - the neck especially, for some reason. I know that I am a work in progress, but I think that there is already a woman out there who will appreciate me. I just need to get through this awful D stuff. I hope I can trust again afterwards.
I saw OM today. I did not have the shakes. No pit in my stomach. No change in my mood. No nuthin'. Just complete apathy. It felt good to be released from his grip. I hope my apathy towards him lasts and gets stronger. He was with his STBXW. I am not sure why his STBXW would want to be seen with him after what he is doing. I guess she has her own issues to work through. OM is so weak. I can see it from across the parking lot. He is so desperate for any kind of validation. He needed my W to give it to him, I guess. I think they deserve each other, as sad as that sounds. My M is over.
My W wants me to send her pictures from my recent vacation with S13 and S11. I really don't want to share anything with her right now. However, she may elect to not share with me in the future. I just don't know how much goodwill to project, since she is still in the midst of an A. I thought of perhaps sharing only pictures of the kids or scenery and not giving her pictures with me in it. Once the D is final, will there be this kind of sharing? Do I set the stage now? Anyone have any suggestions?
RAI
Oh, I must have clicked submit prematurely. Sorry for the somewhat duplicate posts.
RAI- What would be the downside of sharing the pictures?
Ral,
You pose a very straightforward question. So why am I having so much difficulty answering it?
I'll give it a try.
I think it boils down to the fact that I still feel very taken advantage of and used. She is actively involved in an A. I am still paying for her every need. She is cake-eating to the max. I do not like the person she has become. I don't like doing things for her. Giving her the pictures would just be another capitulation.
In short, I just cannot seem to detach.
Any other thoughts?
RAI
I feel the same way RAI if that is any kind of help.
I don't feel very much like sharing our photos of our last vacations, school events or anything when we were a family. I too feel taken advantage of and am appaled when W asks for things from me.
In the larger picture, should we not turn the other cheek? Yes, I believe so, but not now. Not for me anyway.
Well RAI (and HeavyD),
I haven’t dealt with this particular peccadillo, so this is all just lip service on my part – but here are my thoughts…
You know, I share all these kinds of photos with STBX without his asking. Mostly because it means a lot to my daughters that he see picture of them at their various sports and other activities. It’s also how I handled the tricky Birthday situation – I gave him an album of picture of the girls (and from the girls) – the fact that these photos show the girls having a great time and going through significant life milestones without him? Well if that causes him a moment’s thought – that’s a bonus. By the way, I have never expected, nor received a similar gesture in return.
As far as cake eating goes – I dunno- I think you’re getting a little in the weeds with your definition. If she expected to go on your vacation with you as though nothing had happened – that would be cake eating. But getting copies of pictures? That’s parenting. And FWIW, no matter how your situation ends up, you’re going to be parenting together . Also- it would be one thing if she expected you to put together a scrapbook, but sharing phots? Pretty painless. Just send her a link to an online site without comment.
As far as the “she’s still in an affair- why should she get to do things like this” question. I will leave you with this thought. There is a difference between being the lighthouse, and being a towering statue of righteous and indignant judgment. I don’t think every interaction with our walkaway spouses needs to be agonized over , but maybe when these questions come up, ask yourself which one you are being? I think being the lighthouse includes a certain amount of graciousness, no?
Rai,I feel the same about living with W still. Legally M but haven't felt like it in forever. At this point I miss the intimacy a lot also, more than W maybe. I do still love her but I don't obsess or think about her much anymore. Work is helping tons with that but I can see now with kids and work how I'll likely not find anyone else for a long time. Not that I'm focusing on it too much,being alone for a while could be good for me also.
In the larger picture, should we not turn the other cheek?
Heavy,
It does help to know I am not alone in feeling the way I feel. I also agree that we
should turn the other cheek (see my reply to raliced below). I am trying sooo hard to rise above things and not be petty - hence my username and the name of my thread. I just have such difficulty doing it right now. Just not there yet.
no matter how your situation ends up, you’re going to be parenting together.
Raliced, I hear you 100%. I know the righteous indignation is a defense mechanism. I know it prevents me from detaching and focusing on myself. I know all this intellectually. I am just struggling with internalizing it. Especially with everyone around me telling me how awful W is. Frankly, right now, I agree with them.
Still your other points about W seeing what she is missing and kids wanting to share their experiences speak to me more strongly. I will upload the pics, also so I can share pics with my sisters and my mom.
being alone for a while could be good for me also.
I dunno, Fogg. I see how being alone can be good, especially if one is exiting a co-dependent relationship. But I feel a different imperative. I am 44 years old. I certainly don't want to rush into a new relationship, but I am also not getting any younger or more attractive (well, maybe more attractive
) I don't want to be alone forever. perhaps it is cultural. It says in the bible (Genesis 2:18) "it is not good that man is alone." I miss companionship. My male friends, G-d bless them, just don't cut it.
RAI
This is all just so freakishly hard. Nothing about this process is easy, maybe time will lesson the ego blow. I pray that it will and everyone can move past it. But for me, it is one day at a time, seriously. That's all I can focus on. Just this one day. That is the very best I can do.
Heavy, I sooo hear you. You are echoing my Mom's great advice to take each day as it comes. She told me this when I was ~5 years old and I still think of it all the time.
We will get through it because we will get through it.
RAI
I know it prevents me from detaching and focusing on myself. I know all this intellectually. I am just struggling with internalizing it. Especially with everyone around me telling me how awful W is. Frankly, right now, I agree with them.
Well RAI - I feel compelled to point out you aren't helpless in this. Detachment is for your peace of mind. If your friends are telling you things that prevent you from detaching?
Tell them they aren't helping you and that you want them to stop But I feel a different imperative. I am 44 years old. I certainly don't want to rush into a new relationship, but I am also not getting any younger or more attractive (well, maybe more attractive
) I don't want to be alone forever. perhaps it is cultural. It says in the bible (Genesis 2:18) "it is not good that man is alone." I miss companionship. My male friends, G-d bless them, just don't cut it.
Oh, come on....you're a doctor for heaven's sake. You'll be fine.
Well RAI - I feel compelled to point out you aren't helpless in this. Detachment is for your peace of mind. If your friends are telling you things that prevent you from detaching? Tell them they aren't helping you and that you want them to stop
I have to a degree. That is also a work in progress. I have told my friends and family to tone down the hostility as it does not help. In their defense,they are not (and have never been) that inflammatory, but you only need one small spark to ignite me these days.
Oh, come on....you're a doctor for heaven's sake. You'll be fine.
I hope you're right. I am just looking forward to the day. I really want companionship. I miss it alot.
RAI
RAI, thanks for stopping by my thread. I'm glad you had a fun vacation. I say send her some pics but only the ones with you looking hot! lol
I do believe detaching is key, if you figure out how to do that let me know. I haven't quite figured that part out yet and living together makes it that much more difficult! ugh
Thanks Losty.
Today is the 20th anniversary of the day I met my W. Coincidentally, I told her it is over tonight. I'm sure it was over for her a long time ago, and I probably sounded foolish saying it, but I closed the door on her forever. I told her that even if she begged me (which she wouldn't, I'm sure) I would not have her back.
It started with an argument. I told her that I wanted to visit me sister with the kids for the Jewish new year. The kids want to see their aunt. W refused because she wants to be with kids. I explained that there are going to be many more holidays where we will not be with our children, thanks to her. I know I lost my cool and it is very counter to DB. Everything escalated from there. It was a very ugly conversation.
To tired to go on. Just going to go to sleep.
It's over. It's over.
RAI
Last night, I told my W that no matter how good a mother she thinks she is, a good mother does not destroy her family. I told her that I know she remained with OM even throughout the months of MC, wasting my time - that she never recommitted to the R. I told her that I pity OM if he ends up with her. Then I said they deserve each other. There were a lot of heated words, some truth darts interspersed. I just don't want to rehash them anymore. I am ashamed. Getting them off my chest made no difference to my sitch. If anything, I felt 10 times worse.
Well, it's the morning after. Now that I have had some time to parse things (and cry), here are my thoughts:
1) I felt terrible most of the morning because I lost my composure. I was angry at myself for the hurtful words used. Even if they are true. I was angry at myself because I allowed WW to dictate my behavior. I have a choice in how I behave and respond. I am RAI - I am supposed to rise above it.
2) I am frustrated that any anger I show is evidence she shores up to demonstrate how terrible I am.
3) I feel bad because the Kids were still awake upstairs and heard us arguing. I don't think they heard any details, but I would really feel terrible if they did.
I left the house immediately after to get together with a friend who helped me decompress as little. S13 felt the need to call me moments after I left to see if I was ok. Some lighthouse I am to him!
At first I really beat myself up for my lapse last night. The more I think about it, it was not that big a deal. I have feelings. I have restrained myself for a very long time. I am not perfect. RAI can't always rise above it. Anyone in my sitch will lose their composure at some point. Saying hurtful things now is like breaking a window in a building that is about to be demolished. Married couples, even in the best of circumstances, fight and say things they regret. So it is at least excusable (not ideal of course) if someone in my sitch does the same. I am human. I am not a robot. I know we will have to co-parent at some point. I don't see this fight as an impediment.
All in all, it was a terrible way for our M to end - 20 years, to the day, from the day we met. Poignant or just coincidence? Who knows.
RAI
RAI, that may not have been the most DB-ing thing to do, but it wasn't that bad, and it's over now. It's not like she was begging you to take her back and you said those things and now she's walking away. In the big scheme of things, it wasn't the straw that broke the camel's back, and it possibily made you feel better. Take a deep breath, don't beat yourself up over it, and move on. Yes, we are all human.
(And raliced, BTW, that 8/20 post was brilliant.)
Hi Rai. Just to echo Sunny. It's over and no one is dead. Does it help your cause , who knows ? That one conversation means nothing in the grand scheme
Take your time before any action
Take care. Rd
Hey Rai,
Just read all of that. You're human. DB'ing is hard my friend. Our situations are impossible. Sometimes your humanity is going to boil over and you're not going to act anywhere close to perfectly. It happens.
Heck, it's probably good for you to not walk around with all of that anger inside of you. Now you know that it won't make you feel better and have the option of making a different choice next time. Live and learn, that's what this is all about.
Breathe, it's over.
PP
Thanks Sunny and rd. I think I just needed some time to recover. I lost my focus for a few hours. Now, back to being the best me I can be.
RAI
My W wants me to send her pictures from my recent vacation with S13 and S11. I really don't want to share anything with her right now. However, she may elect to not share with me in the future. I just don't know how much goodwill to project, since she is still in the midst of an A. I thought of perhaps sharing only pictures of the kids or scenery and not giving her pictures with me in it. Once the D is final, will there be this kind of sharing? Do I set the stage now? Anyone have any suggestions?
I just got portraits done of my kids last month. I believe some migrated to FB if my W is looking. She hasnt asked for them, and I havent offered. I think if she asked me for them, I would send a few of the files, but Im not going out of my way. No matter what happens, she is still their mom.
Edit to add that I posted this before reading all of the other things you posted. You know what? All it was was words. You said them, theyre out there for a bit, and then they are gone into the night. Learn from it and move forward.
There were a lot of heated words, some truth darts interspersed. I just don't want to rehash them anymore. I am ashamed. Getting them off my chest made no difference to my sitch. If anything, I felt 10 times worse.
Well yeah, I doubt after hearing this she's going to suddenly come to her senses...
but.......
Well, it's the morning after. Now that I have had some time to parse things (and cry), here are my thoughts:
1) I felt terrible most of the morning because I lost my composure. I was angry at myself for the hurtful words used. Even if they are true. I was angry at myself because I allowed WW to dictate my behavior. I have a choice in how I behave and respond. I am RAI - I am supposed to rise above it.
2) I am frustrated that any anger I show is evidence she shores up to demonstrate how terrible I am.
3) I feel bad because the Kids were still awake upstairs and heard us arguing. I don't think they heard any details, but I would really feel terrible if they did.
I left the house immediately after to get together with a friend who helped me decompress as little. S13 felt the need to call me moments after I left to see if I was ok. Some lighthouse I am to him!
RAI
You know - if you really internalize that this type of thing makes you feel worse, not better, and you start to move beyond the need to say such things, it may have served its purpose.
As for the kids - well, I don't think it's good for kids to hear their mom is "a bad mother" regardless of how you feel in the heat of the moment. I
do think it's ok to let them see
some of your pain and anger. You can't shield them from everything in life and I decided my my initial stiff upper lip may have caused my daughters to think I didn't really care. I think it was better for them once I started to show that, yes, I have felt hurt. I think it helped validate their own hurt feelings.
RAI
I really want you to put your children first. Frankly this should be the most important thing in your life.
Stop, think.
These children come be fore you, above WW.
Please do this . Now.
I don't really think your tender emotions, or complex interactions with WW are more important than your children.
Stop the drama.
V
Thanks everyone for the replies. I would like to address each of them soon. For now, suffice it to say that the nasty argument is behind me and I am actually having a nice weekend.
I have a question for the group: I would like to visit my sister with the kids for the upcoming jewish new year. My W does not want to be away from the kids for this holiday in particular - I'm not sure why. We are at an impasse. Here are the details of the proposed trip:
It would be 3 days (sun-tues). It will be the only time my nieces will be there. We will be home for the rest of the Jewish holidays - there are many more holidays within a week or two. Most importantly, my kids really love going and have been asking me for weeks. Although my sister lives 3 hours away, my younger kids have not seen their cousins since the bar-mitzvah in may.
We are still legally married. There are no custody issues. Do I put my foot down? Do I appeal to her and simply fold if she says no? I am as much of a parent to these children as she is. Prior to BD I deferred to her for all these decisions. The kids will be going through a difficult year anvd a trip to their aunts is something they really love. My W will have to understand that there will be holidays where each of us will not be with the kids. Or, do I concede, like I did for the first days of Passover?
RAI
No words of wisdom on how to handle the holiday. I would say don't concede if you feel strongly about it, not sure how to work it out seeing as you are married with no custody agreements.
Really just stopping in to check in. Sorry you're struggling, don't beat yourself up over it, it happens to the best of them. I know how hard it is to be living with a spouse who doesn't want to be married any more. Hang in there. (())
If you want to go then go. She knows where you will be and how to contact you & the kids if needed. Would you ask a neighbor for permission? There are your kids & there is no court order on specific visitation so take care of you and the kids.
Thanks Bravo. I actually softened my approach and outlined the reasons why going makes sense, and W acquiesced. She looked upset about it. I feel like she continues to find things about me that she doesn't like: she does not like that I go out at night to GAL. Some of those outings are with my kids. Some are with friends. Some are for exercise or to synagogue. I think she complains that I am out too much. This was her complaint pre-BD as well. I Should really stop obsessing over what she thinks. Is there anything I could or should do differently?
On another note, i was cc'd on correspondence between W and L. She has a new email address and she is using her maiden name. Ouch. She has really checked out. It hurts. DETACH RAI, detach.
RAI
And was her observation pre BD accurate?
Is there a 180 in this?
V
Thanks Bravo. I actually softened my approach and outlined the reasons why going makes sense, and W acquiesced.
RAI, this is good. When my kids are sassy, I tell them they can say the same thing and still get their point across in a different way. Nicer words, different tone of voice. Sometimes that's the key.
All is well, V. Thanks for asking and checking up on me.
Heck, it's probably good for you to not walk around with all of that anger inside of you. Now you know that it won't make you feel better and have the option of making a different choice next time. Live and learn, that's what this is all about.
You know what? All it was was words. You said them, theyre out there for a bit, and then they are gone into the night. Learn from it and move forward.
Azzork and PP, You are right. The fight was 2 weeks ago and, with the benefit of hindsight, I don't regret it anymore. I think I had been harboring a lot of anger. I still have a lot, but I have been keeping my composure. If anything,
WW is more angry lately - more on that later.
I do think it's ok to let them see some of your pain and anger. You can't shield them from everything in life and I decided my my initial stiff upper lip may have caused my daughters to think I didn't really care. I think it was better for them once I started to show that, yes, I have felt hurt. I think it helped validate their own hurt feelings.
Ral, this is a real eye-opener for me. I used to think that if I revealed my hurt I would be revealing too much of my sitch to my kids. But, as usual, you are right. It is ok for my kids to see me hurting sometimes. I also don't think it has diminished their love for their M.
I really want you to put your children first.
V, you wouldn't recognize me. I am being much more civil these days. I talk to my W about kid-related stuff. I don't know if it will stick, because I don't know what caused the transformation, but so far, so good.
RAI
A brief update:
All my disclosure paperwork is in. The ball is in Ws court. I met with a child psychologist and she seems really nice. My W is supposed to meet with the child psychologist now, but has not yet made an appt. Again the ball is in her court. I am training for the 1/2 marathon. Jewish High Holidays are coming up.
I have started to receive anonymous malicious texts. Not sure why. Not sure what to do about them.
RAI
I am thankful for...
my children and their health
my health
my super supportive family
my supportive friends
my good looks
my sexy car (although I will have to sell it for the D)
my DB friends
my job
That needed to be said.
feels good.
RAI
I think she complains that I am out too much. This was her complaint pre-BD as well. I Should really stop obsessing over what she thinks. Is there anything I could or should do differently?
And was her observation pre BD accurate?
Is there a 180 in this?
V,
I think that in the last year pre-BD (only) I was out a lot - from 9-10 PM. That said, I was also the driving force behind a weekly date night. Unfortunately, we had trouble committing to it. She did not like the fact that she always had to arrange babysitting. She also had difficulty separating from our then-S1. I probably was not committed enough to date night either. The other thing is that I tend to come home from work late - around 7 PM. This is not uncommon for doctors, but I probably could have been better about it. In truth, I am not out that much in the evenings anymore - although W would say otherwise to vilify me. If I had to guess, I also come home about 30 minutes earlier, on average. Perhaps it is not early enough. It bothers me that she makes dinner for the kids so early and that I only get to eat dinner with them on weekends.
I suppose there is a 180 somewhere in all of this. If I were to do this 180, it would have to be for me and the kids (as all 180s should be). It's just impractical. I work at a lot of off-sights, some of them are hours from my home. Although, they tailor my schedule to allow for commute time, I am just not that fast a physician. I take a long time to see patients. And if I leave my paperwork for another time, it takes twice as long to complete - because I have forgotten things.
I dunno, just some thoughts.
RAI
Could you perhaps do an early night once a week then two the next, then one very early etc?
Have a game or tickle night with the kids, a friend of mine plays 'murder in the dark' with hidden prizes, stories and giggles.
I am glad for the civility. Breathe.......
The awareness caused the change and yes it will stick. Because once you know you can never unknow!
V
RAI-
How is the marathon training coming?
I'm applying to med school. Any advice for the future?
V,
I like your ideas. I will try to do one night a week. I think Wednesdays would usually work for this. This also used to be date night
. I don't see why I cannot be home by 5:30 on these days. I remember "murder in the dark" from my youth, but forgot completely how to play. I looked it up on the internet. There are many variations, but I don't think my younger children will get it. What is your version? How does one incorporate prizes? What is a tickle night? in my house, every night is tickle night
. V, you are awesome.
I am still civil. It is still hard.
How is the marathon training coming?
I'm applying to med school. Any advice for the future?
rdken, thanks for stopping in. half-marathon training is going OK. A bit busy with work and Jewish high holidays - so it is hard to find time to train. I checked out your thread. Best of luck in your sitch and life in general. Advice for the future:
1) Embrace the obstacles in your life, because you grow from them (easier said than done, right?)
2) My mantra in residency was: "they can do what they want but they can't stop time."
3) find things for which you are thankful - even in our sitch, there is a lot for which to be thankful. It prevents one from becoming bitter.
4)You want to find something that you're good at, that you love to do, and that someone will pay you to do. That is the definition of career success. If you can hit the intersection of this three-way venn diagram, you're golden.
5) look up Calvin Coolidge's quote about perseverance and learn it well.
Best,
RAI
So many thoughts...
I had a great weekend. Now 4 weeks away from 1/2-marathon. Got in a good, but tiring, run. Took the kids for ice cream. Got a haircut - I look like a stud. Managed to stay civil with W the whole weekend. Did not snoop or pry. Was really detached.
Now suffering from the Monday morning blahs. I can't seem to focus on my work today. I think I expended so much energy GALing and PMAing on the weekend that I started my week emotionally and physically exhausted. I am overwhelmed by the work I need to do, and could easily have started chipping away at it. But...I...just...could...not...do...it.
Finally got 4-way meeting with W and out Ls scheduled. Not as soon as a I wanted. As terrible as D is, I really want to move forward with D so I can finalize new living arrangements. Living under same roof with W is very hard.
Interesting: over the last few weeks, I have a feeling that there has been a subtle almost imperceptible shift in our post-BD relationship. I think I now see W more clearly - warts and all, and W is starting to realize what a great person she is D'ing. I don't know if this is a transient anomaly in the pursuer-distancer dynamic, but it sure feels good.
RAI
RAI, Happy New Year, a little late. I am in awe of your 1/2 marathon. Just not something I think I'll ever do.
I understand about moving forward, now that it's started. Last week at our first collaborative meeting, we went ahead and scheduled the next two. It's hard to get a group of professional people together, so they are strung out over a longer time frame than I prefer. But, at least we are talking months, not years like some cases drag out to be. Good luck to you.
Thanks, SunnyB, for the New Year wishes. And to all the other Jewish DBers, Happy New Year! May it be a sweet new year filled with health and satisfaction.
Yesterday was Yom Kippur - another Jewish holiday. It is a time for repentance and forgiveness.
i.e. a very hard time for a LBS. In order to
sincerely ask for forgiveness, the person seeking it must do three things:
1) Admit what they did/are doing
2) Stop the offending action
3) Take steps to prevent it from happening again
And, BTW, the individual needs to ask for forgiveness
in person -
i.e. face to face.
In this spirit, I received an email from WW on the eve of the holiday. I am reproducing parts of it here to help me parse through it, and to vent. I have altered it a little so that it is not searchable.
So much time has gone by and there has been so much hurt that I don't recognize either of us anymore.
Not surprising. The old RAI was betrayed and taken for a fool. I am not your friend. Sorry - that's just the way it is. The old W is also dead. The WW that has replaced her is lost in a fog of her own self-interests.
I don't want to go back and forth about who did what and who said what.
*BLAMESHIFTING ALERT*. How convenient! It is easier to ignore the huge *ongoing* A that devastated our M. I could see how going back and forth would dredge up all that nonsense. P.S. nothing I
said caused you to have the A. Nice try, though.
in the spirit of the holiday I want to sincerely apologize for the pain I have caused you.
Sincerely? See above for what a sincere apology looks like.
I know I have caused you too much hurt for one person to bare[sic].
A bit self aggrandizing, aren't you? I think I
can bear it and I am doing great.
I am asking 4 forgiveness but not expecting you to.
WW always does this. She needs to be the martyr/victim. By not forgiving her, I am the wicked, harsh, unforgiving H. What she really wants is absolution. If/when I forgive her, it will be for ME, on my terms, to help me let go. It ain't happening while we are under the same roof and while I am receiving anonymous menacing text messages, that's for sure.
I know there is no going back
And live a lie? Why would I want to do that? Ironically, this is the only thing WW got right in this letter.
I hope that you will one day see me differently.
Me too, because you're not looking too pretty right now.
It is amazing that even though WW thinks she is being kind, she is just opening up the wound and causing more pain. I would much rather have NOT received this email. I have said everything I want to say in this post. I am not replying to her email. Does anyone feel otherwise? Should I reply? Let's open up the floor.
RAI
P.S. Sunny, check out "my 120 lb journey" on Youtube. It 's about a guy (Ben Davis) who became a runner. Very inspirational. I cry every time I watch it. Perhaps if you really want to run a marathon, all you have to do is "do it".
I am not replying to her email. Does anyone feel otherwise? Should I reply? Let's open up the floor.
RAI, I'm very possibly going to be in the minority here, but yes, I do feel otherwise. I feel you should acknowledge her email with something simple like, "W, thank you for the email. I know it must have been hard to write." Because I do think it was probably hard for her to write. What ended up in written form was not necessarily the whole thought process. And while I realize it's not the apology you want/need, fact is you and I are probably never going to get one of those. This is really way more about you living the life you want, becoming the person you want to be. No matter what W does or doesn't do. Your graciousness does not depend on the quality of her apology.
Thanks for the You Tube reference, I'll take a look at that this afternoon. I really have no ambition to be a marathoner. I do have a deadlift goal, however.
Sunny, thanks for the quick reply. What is your deadlift goal? Whatever it is, I think that is a pretty admirable goal, considering I can barely lift my 4-year-old.
I hear what you are saying, about graciousness. However, I replied to a similar letter one year ago with the following:
"I appreciate you sincere effort to apologize and I am sorry this is hard for you."
It is eerily similar to what you suggested, don't you think? and that was without any input from DB community, if I recall correctly
.
In retrospect, it certainly did not make me feel better. It could be argued that I am a better person for it, but a year had passed and I still wonder why I replied. I truly don't feel like a better person because of it: at best, I feel unchanged. At worst I feel like a chump for feeding into her belief that a painfully written email can fix the mess she wrought. I like who I am already. She will vilify me regardless. Why do I have to send an insincere letter in reply to her insincere letter. In short, Sunny, what purpose does it serve?
I dunno...
RAI
In short, Sunny, what purpose does it serve?
RAI, this is going to have to be from my perspective, I can't speak to your unique circumstances. So let's imagine that H had sent that letter to me. I would reply as I suggested primarily because I have three kids with him and it's better for my children if we have a friendly relationship. I'd reply that way because there are a lot of weddings, births, baptisms, birthday parties, and another round of weddings in our future and I'm going to have to sit beside him and make pleasant chit chat for a lot of years to come. I'd reply that way because I have a wonderful future and bitterness and anger and grudge holding are not part of it. I'd reply that way because I need to give him the benefit of the doubt and entertain the possibility that was the best apology he could offer up with his limited resources. I'd reply that way because our D is not yet final and I want to be on as good terms as possible while we make our negotiations, an angry spouse is not a generous one.
Some of those reasons are more noble than others, some more practical. In the end, you may find that none of them are worthy and reject them all. That's OK, I'm not trying to talk you into anything. I'm just saying that would be my purpose.
I appreciate you taking the time tremendously. Thanks so much. I really appreciate your perspective. Your reasons all seem valid. You have given me much food for thought. One thing's for sure, it isn't easy.
RAI
Received 2 more harassing text messages. OM has a lot of time on his hands. What a loser.
RAI
I would agree with sunny also and give a reply. There was some things in that email that many of us never hear and I believe while your comments have truth to them it also contains alot of your anger. She achnowledged she's caused you great pain and I doubt many WW could even say that. I
You asked what would be the point and I think the point would be to begin to forgive, which only requires giving up your right to punish someone. I think deep down you still want to punish her and not achnowledging she attempted to appologize at all (even if you see it as a bad or fake apology) would be trying to punish. You don't know for sure how difficult it was for her to write that letter, so don't completely discount it.
Fogg,
Thanks for checking in and for your offering your perspective. I appreciate it. How have you been lately? I will swing by your thread.
while your comments have truth to them it also contains alot of your anger.
True, true. There is still a lot of anger. It is hard not to be angry when she/OM is still harassing me (he cruised past me last night again as I was out running and I received two more anonymous texts) and I am still under the same roof. I
am venting. Why can't I save my magnanimity for when we are no longer living together.
She achnowledged she's caused you great pain and I doubt many WW could even say that.
Correction, she is causing - present tense - continuing to cause. If someone is stepping on your foot, their apology means little until they
actually get off your foot.
You asked what would be the point and I think the point would be to begin to forgive, which only requires giving up your right to punish someone. I think deep down you still want to punish her and not achnowledging she attempted to appologize at all (even if you see it as a bad or fake apology) would be trying to punish.
You are spot on. But there are degrees. Not acknowledging the email is milder than writing a scathing reply (akin to what I wrote in my post). Again, I
did reply last year and I don't feel like it helped me begin to forgive. Isn't there some value in biting my tongue if that is all I can muster at this stage?
You don't know for sure how difficult it was for her to write that letter, so don't completely discount it.
I
don't know how difficult it was. I don't know if she even actually wrote it.
I think I will get much more mileage from being more polite on a day-to-day basis.
RAI
RAI, for what it's worth, my STBX has said that he's sorry I'm hurt, but has never acknowledged that he chose to do the hurting. To me, it's like saying that you are sorry my leg is broken without acknowledging you were the one who ran me down with an 18-wheeler. But I have chosen to believe that's the best apology he can offer right now, and I think that deserves an olive branch for the sake of my children.
You are correct that saying nothing at all is better than a scathing reply. Better for her, and far better for your kids, but not necessarily for you. Because all that anger and bitterness and resentment is still inside you, and that's what we are trying to get you to let go of.
Hello Rai, I agree with Sunny that it is probably best to respond in a way that is in the interests of your family going forwards. I agree that it must have taken quite a bit for your W to write that message and rather than looking for the kind of apology you would like, accept the apology you have. Part of this is that perhaps you want to 'show' your W how inadequate her apology is in relation to all that has happened. I understand that if so.
You may be interested to have a look at Cali's thread in the MLC area of the forum. A few months ago, there was a long debate on the nature of forgiveness and how to work towards it. Very interesting and I have been meaning to go back to it. Whatever the ultimate outcome, we need to find a way to forgive. Some of us will heal and forgive together and some will heal and forgive alone. Both are fine. And some people will remain stuck in anger for perhaps many years. That's not what any of us want for ourselves I'm sure.
I hope this helps a little and best wishes to you xx
Ya...H tested me a "sort of" apology..."I don't mean to hurt you." I chose not to reply. His actions invalidate that apology. I had so many scathing replies to offer, it seemed best to not reply.
I know my lack of response irritated him, but really. An apology would be nicer if he actually "got off my foot." (Love that one!)
In the meantime, I'm taking away my penchant for caring. He can go on his merry way...I'll just keep working on me. I know I'll have better results.
V,
I like your ideas. I will try to do one night a week. I think Wednesdays would usually work for this. This also used to be date night
. I don't see why I cannot be home by 5:30 on these days. I remember "murder in the dark" from my youth, but forgot completely how to play. I looked it up on the internet. There are many variations, but I don't think my younger children will get it. What is your version? How does one incorporate prizes? What is a tickle night? in my house, every night is tickle night
. V, you are awesome.
I am still civil. It is still hard.
----------------------------------------------
Apologise for not posting, I downloaded the new upgrade for my iPad, every time I quoted, it locked and kicked me from the site. grrrrrr
So murder in the dark the very best of it. A very dark room, 'it' is blindfolded, everyone hides, each person has an object of their choice. Once 'it' catches a person, they have to find the object and guess what it is. You can also do this with food and tastes.
Tickle night is about penalties and prizes. Usually about tickling feet, or arms with a secret object, feather, piece of soap, loofah, fork, boiled egg. The tickled person has to guess what it is. tHen there is a prize, such as picking the pizza flavour, choosing the night time reading book.
RAI, I am sooooooo proud of you. I really truly am.
V
If it were me then I would simply validate WW
"Thank you for your thoughts, I appreciate you expressing them. "
I am a lone voice and I do not believe in forgiveness until there is a request for it. Let go resentment yes, forgive not always. Let go of revenge. My views are on gr8 thread.
It isn't my job to forgive, it is the role of the persons higher power. I must never get in the way. Just let WHs higher power deal it. It is between him, his higher power and his 12 step process.
V
Sunny, Sotto, Judy, and V,
Thanks for your thoughtful opinions - delivered so non-judgmentally, I would add. You guys are awesome big sisters to me. I am learning so much in my journey. I have visited Cali's thread and reviewed the lengthy discussion on forgiveness. I have also scoured the resources that the web has to offer. I learned that there are 3 types of forgiveness (per Dr. Steven Marmer at UCLA):
1) Exoneration: this is the one we commonly associate with forgiveness. It is reserved for cases where the offender shows true remorse and accepts full blame. It restores a relationship to it's former status. Clearly not the case here.
2) Forebearance: When the apology is incomplete and still blames the offended party. It would almost seem to apply here, except, my W is continuing her actions.
3) Release: This is the one I am truly pursuing. It is reserved for when the offender makes to effort to apologize. I would add that it may be beneficial in cases where there is no
sincere effort or when the offense is on-going. To quote Dr. Marmer:
Release does not exonerate the offender. Nor does it require forbearance. It doesn’t even demand that one continue the relationship. It does ask: instead of continuing to define your life in terms of the hurt done. You release your bad feelings and the preoccupation with the negative things that happened to you. It allows you to let go of the burden – the silent tax that is wearing you down and eating away at your chance for happiness. If you don’t release the pain and anger and move past dwelling on old hurts you allow the ones who hurt you to live rent free in your mind, reliving the persecution. It liberates you from the tyranny of living in the traumatic past.
Release is for my benefit. It means letting go of the anger.
I think it is what many of you are getting at. I am just not there yet. I saw how it took job (the DBer, not the biblical character) three years to get over her anger. I also noticed how everyone does it in their own time. Vs reply resonated with me the most. Validate, without commenting or speculating on her motives/intentions or being overly sympathetic. That said, I am still leaning towards not replying. I thought long and hard about it. I even had a good cry. I am still, admittedly, on the fence about it.
Regardless, I hope I took a baby step today, and I will continue to make a sincere effort to be civil with my W.
Thanks again and have a great weekend,
RAI
I like Jeanne Safer Forgiving and not forgiving.
V
Release is for my benefit. It means letting go of the anger. I think it is what many of you are getting at. I am just not there yet.
RAI, I don't think I ever used the word "forgiveness". Yes, I'm talking about letting go of anger, hurt, fear, resentment, bitterness, grudge-holding. Because who do you want to be? You get to choose.
You guys are awesome big sisters to me.
BTW, RAI, this was a sweet compliment. Thank you.
I've been struggling for a couple of weeks with the disparity between the guys I'm attracted to and my own age. I almost posted on my thread about it last week. Maybe I will tomorrow.
Jeanne Safer Forgiving and not forgiving
V, thanks for the suggestion. I will explore. Interesting premise, for sure. I hope you are well.
Sunny, I have been really civil lately. I don't initiate conversations, or say hello/goodbye/goodnight, but when W talks to me, I try to sound friendly and matter-of-fact. Hardest thing I have ever done. This is in place of replying to the email she wrote to me. I liked V's reply
"Thank you for your thoughts, I appreciate you expressing them.", but I just decided to let it be.
I received another anonymous text last night. I am pretty sure they are coming from OM because they typically arrive after I have seen him stalking me. I don't know if my W is aware of the fact that he is sending them to me. I am so amazed at how little there is to do about it. Cops won't file a report unless I can prove who sent them.
letting go of anger, hurt, fear, resentment, bitterness, grudge-holding. Because who do you want to be? You get to choose.
Hard to do in the midst of it all.
RAI
Big sis is enjoying seeing your progress.
Much more thought, consideration before action and calm.
I confess to be being freakkkkkk about OM. Be safe, very safe.
V
I confess to be being freakkkkkk about OM. Be safe, very safe.
V,
I am being careful. Thanks again for thinking about me, Sis. I like to think that if OM had wanted to do something to me, he would have done so by now. Rather, I think that I am still very much in OMs head. He is probably trying to get a rise out of me. Perhaps he needs that to keep his relationship with my W going. Perhaps he thinks he is defending WWs honor (I know, what honor???) by harassing me. Or...perhaps he just has too much time on his hands. He is an unskilled, uneducated, unethical loser, so nothing is beneath him.
We are getting closer to a 4-way meeting with the Ls. Pretty nervous and not sure what to expect. Not even clear on what the objectives of the meeting are. I hope I can control my anger and disgust. I have been doing pretty well in that category.
I think I had asked about this in the past, but does anyone use a D (as opposed to a DB) coach?
RAI
Saw this in vise82's thread. It is pure gold. Thanks Sandi! Reposting in my thread for posterity. Heck, I think I will print it and paste it inside my eyelids so I can see it when I sleep.
What do you mean confident especially with her?
In his interaction with her (male to female), but some includes a wider span. To name just a few..... making arrangements/plans for dates, instead of leaving everything up to her; he is decisive; he is not co-dependent; how he handles himself socially; how he pursues her; how he handles small rejections; how he talks to her, as well as others; standing his ground; taking care of his business; and how he acts in their bedroom. (Of course, for a LBH, he would not date and pursue her). He is not afraid of her. He won't allow her to hen-peck him. He does not take the passive way out; He is not afraid to disagree with her; He is not afraid to override her decisions concerning finances, family, home, etc, when needed. He is not afraid she'll be upset with him, or she'll get angry. He does not avoid conflict with her. He is not afraid to speak up. He is not afraid to call her out on her bad behavior/treatment. He doesn't measure his self-value by what
she thinks of him. He doesn't sob, fret and wring his hands, beg, whine, or scream, in her presence. (This does not include suffering, losing a loved one, etc.) He isn't constantly asking her what she's going to do....what she's thinking...if she's changed her mind, etc. He knows how to take-charge, if needed. Although he is considerate, he's not afraid if he doesn't check in with her throughout the day, and/or always asking her what she thinks before he makes small decisions for himself. He is not afraid to GAL apart from her and/or the kids. He does not walk on eggshells.
I think the man she sees in private, and the one she sees interact with others....should resemble each other.
I bought a laundry hamper for my room. I have had it for over a month. I am paying for a cleaning lady even though my W is home all day. Somehow it escapes my W to tell the cleaning lady that there is another hamper full of clothes to wash. Every time I come home, I find the hamper full and untouched. I have brought it up in the past. I think my W is conveniently forgetting to tell our helper about MY laundry or worse, is telling her to ignore my laundry. I am very angry about it. I know it would be vengeful to fire the cleaning lady and make my SAH W do more work.
It speaks to the larger issue of cake eating. W still uses credit card, cell phone, cleaning lady, all at my expense. She has two small businesses operated from our house that generate nothing (as far as I can tell - she does not share her finances with me). I know this all sounds pathetic and that my W is a freeloader. My L suggested I don't cut off her credit cards so I can monitor her activity - we share debt after D. L also suggested I don't cut off the phone for the same reason. If I ever need access to her phone to prove her illicit activity. Incidentally, I have a friend that just fired the cleaning lady 2 weeks ago.
I need to grow a set, I think.
Anyone have any suggestions: what to tell W, if anything; what to tell cleaning lady, if anything; just ignore it and wait for D? Stand up for myself? Fire the cleaning lady? Ask the L? I know that my W has told her that I am crazy in the past. Cleaning lady suspects/knows about the A.
RAI
How about: "if cleaning lady does not do my laundry properly, I am firing her"
RAI - my friend.....
I guess I am confused by this. Why are you expecting your W to notify the cleaning lady about the laundry?
If you want your laundry cleaned by her - call her yourself and give her that expectation. She's an employee - its none of her business which hamper is in what bedroom. Why on earth would you even consider firing her unless you confirm that she knows she should be doing it?
I get that your wife is not exactly pulling her weight around the house at the moment and that you are frustrated about it. However, you have to deal with the situation that is (and its not going to change until you all are in different households). Tell the cleaning lady yourself that you want your laundry done. Problem solved.
raliced x 2. That's exactly what I thought, RAI. If you have an issue with the cleaning lady, call her.
My goodness, yes, RAI. This is a simple one.
Unlike your relationship with your W, you have an employer/employee relationship with the cleaning lady. You can tell her what you expect. It would be completely unfair to fire her for not doing what you never requested.
Everything you said about your W is true, but so what. You know you can't change that. You know you can't rely on her to deal with the cleaning lady or anyone else on your behalf. Get over the anger. What does it matter what the cleaning lady thinks/knows about A? That stuff is all noise bogging you down.
Next time you see the cleaning lady, ask her politely to include your laundry in the scope of duties.
Now, what's the fun plan for the weekend that takes your mind to a better place?
Sunny and Raliced, I really really really wish I had seen your posts sooner. It was too late. I went home to do a load of laundry for myself and W was there. I confronted her. Uggh. It never goes well. I can never seem to do or say the right thing. I am very down about it. And not surprisingly, I received two more harassing "anonymous" text messages since. HOW IS IT THAT I AM ALWAYS MADE TO FEEL LIKE THE VILLAIN?
I had an IC appt yesterday. I asked him why I am having such difficulty letting go of my anger. He said it is too early. Anyone in my sitch would still be angry. The anger is normal and I am still very much in the midst of things. I hate my life right now. I really do. I am so sick of being consumed by all this.
RAI
Zew, thanks also for your reply. As you can see from my previous post it was all too late.
I feel like I just added another level of complexity to our already dead relationship. I really hate myself right now.
I don't have a fun plan for the weekend.
RAI
Is my WW a victim/martyr? Am I victimizing her/martyring her? I just can't take it anymore.
I received two more harassing "anonymous" text messages since. HOW IS IT THAT I AM ALWAYS MADE TO FEEL LIKE THE VILLAIN?
RAI, is there no way to block that number on your phone? Even if you don't know what the number actually is, there might be a way to block that caller. Have you called your phone carrier to see if there's a way to either find out the number or block it?
I had an IC appt yesterday. I asked him why I am having such difficulty letting go of my anger. He said it is too early. Anyone in my sitch would still be angry. The anger is normal and I am still very much in the midst of things.
RAI, do you like this IC otherwise? Because although anger is normal, it's never too early to learn to let go of it. And BD was over a year ago? How is that too early to learn to deal with anger in a more productive way than letting it get you down to the point you hate your life? Sorry, I'm an accountant, not a counselor, but there's just something that doesn't sit right with me there.
Deep breaths, RAI.
I guarantee this did nothing to your relationship with your W. She probably enjoyed the confrontation because she knows she got under your skin - therefore you're still all in.
Is your wife a victim/martyr? In her mind, most assuredly. Is it true, though? Likely not. It's part of the WW's faulty defense mechanism. To her, you are the root of all problems, and she is blameless. She has a diminished ability to accept responsibility for her part in this. Can you change her truth? Certainly not by talking to her, she has to get there on her own.
You say you can't take it anymore. What's the alternative?
You make your own plan. Pick a point on the horizon of where you want to be. Set a few small goals, just for today for now, that start you in that direction. Build some confidence that you can meet those goals. Soon enough you'll be setting weekly, then monthly goals. Your goals and steps will not depend on your W, and soon enough you'll realize you are under your own control. This is detachment. And once you are there, moving along that path, your W may realize that you are moving along just fine regardless of her circus. It may or may not change the dynamic, but by then you will realize the choices are all yours.
As one who has taken the scenic road through hell (and back), I can tell you it does get better, and there will even be parts of this that you will end up being thankful for. (!)
But don't beat yourself up. Nothing swings on a single confrontation. But now that you've seen how unproductive it was, let's not repeat the experience.
Get to work on the weekend. Do something that makes you feel good.
Well, RAI, having read a lot of your posts it seems like your anger is not consistent but crests at moments. It might be worth journaling when you feel it the most to see if you can identify some patterns and maybe avoid some of those trigger situations.
Where are you in the D process? Honestly, when I read your sitch, I frequently think that regardless of whatever outcome you now desire, things will improve when you are in separate households.
By the way - by all means consult with your attorney. But since you are still liable for the debt she is running up, I would certainly consider lowering the limits on those credit cards if you aren't going to close the accounts.
Hey Zew! Cross posted with you- good to read you again - hope things are going well with you.
Is my WW a victim/martyr? Am I victimizing her/martyring her? I just can't take it anymore.
Is this what you tell yourself?
If WW wants to be victim or martyr she will be, in spite of everything you do. Let her be who she wants, just simply disagree. So text message think to yourself "WW if that's what you want and need OK" "I don't agree WW, but you have the right to say so". I have a post on the abuse thread about this, and it's the stance recommendEd in 12 step.
I will find the link as a starter for you.
Faux victimhood Breathe, smile, my lovely you have come such a long way from your days of screaming banshee back. As I see it, the fact that this is now texts is a great achievement. Congratulate yourself on protecting your children.
As for not taking it anymore, Really RAI!
There is a boundary in this being broken I suspect so..........
Oh in case you weren't told (although I suspect you were) it's your responsibility to ensure your laundry is managed amoung other 'leaving home and cutting the umbilical things.' Note I haven't said that you can't delegate or fair exchange on this. Even the best of help hasn't got xray vision my dear.
Can I recommend a practical book called Life Laundry for you to dip into? The laundry concept I believe comes via Tolstoy from his book Anna Karena, the character Count Vronski had a laundry day, mine used to be every Friday, I called it Friday jobs day before WH came along. Thinking about it, it was a good system and I had a once a month sort it weekend! Thanks for reminding me, it was a good system.
Originally posted by V my strategy developed from NMMNG dealing with WH and his irrational al view that I was to blame for his life woes. I made every mistake in the book. After this I just stopped accepting it was all my fault.
____________________________
what to do, how to deal with irrationality as it happens?
1. Take time out and breathe. Cool it, detach, withdraw mentally for a while. Let the others anger burn out whilst you stay calm. Let them burn out any rant. Respond with let me see if I understand but I need a moment. Can you slow down I am seeking to hear. I hear you say.........
2. Feel empathy but not pity or sympathy. This is irrational and you don't agree but can acknowledge the others feelings. Nod or lean forward and listen. (First level response)
3. Move to second position in your mind (be in the others shoes) be compassionate and kind, above all be kind. See if you can identify the cause.(Second level response)
4. Reflect back the others feelings (you may have already reflected back their words in 1 above) use a calm even tone. So make this about them not you at this stage. (Third level response)
I think you are upset that I did xyz
Not
You are saying I treated you badly
You resent the fact I did xyz all weekend
Not
I hear you that you don't like me doing/saying xyz
5. Validate the others feelings (Fourth level response) having already recognise them and reflected them back.
See Wonkas validation cheat sheet for examples on how to do this. For examples of what not to say see the invalidation post in the abuse thread.
6. Express compassion about the pain
You feel hurt because you feel mistreated or abused.
Do not accept you abused them or victimised. "You seem to believe I agree with your view that I abused or victimised you. My stance is different and I feel upset that you feel and believe as you do. I want you to acknowledge that I am upset by you saying this. In addition I want to tell you that I respect you have the upset feelings even if I do not accept that I Abused or victimised you"
7. Ask for future discussion and then state how you feel
"I feel upset you believe that I deliberately caused your hurt, and I do not hold myself accountable. Although I do believe you feel that way as I do. I find this very difficult. I would like us to talk about that next, tomorrow, next week....."
I am having great difficulty with my confusion and resentment that you think I am trying to control/abuse you when I know that is not my intention.
8. Agree to disagree.
"We are obviously of different opinions, can we agree to disagree that I acknowledge you feel abused whilst I do not accept I abused you."
9. Say you will respond if mistreated.
"Expect me to refute your accusation every time I hear it, I accept you believe I am trying to control/abuse you and I will listen to what you have to say but I know I had no such intention."
hey RAI,
Just checking in, haven't been around too much lately. I feel for you, probably more so because we have similarities in our situations. Not much to add but I will say letting go of anger, like forgiveness, is a gift you give yourself. (((())))
losty!
RAI, where are you buddy? Tell us what's up.
RAI,
I know you often need muse time.
Then you emerge like the moth in its own time.
V
Edit - Please Start a new thread RAI - Cadet
New thread
Yup, it stands for Rising Above It - IV See y'all on the flip side.
RAI