My Journey So Far. Hello again. I hope you have all been well considering sitch.
I've been away for 5 months (I'll get into how bad a mistake that was in another post) and it has been mostly good. While I did not do GAL as I promised, I feel much happier everyday. I'm no longer taking anti-depressants nor sleeping pills. I have a tiny bit of social life around the gym I go to everyday. I'm moving to Florida in December and, baring any surprises, my S12 will move with me to Florida next summer. S12 is doing very well too.
As far as XW, I went completely NC with her. I may have over done that to the point of ignoring her...
I saw her in person 2 times during those months. Not friends... just barely friendly. She has sent texts and left phone messages about various things almost every day, including apologies and "I wish things could be different" type speeches. On the rare times I responded, I only responded by text and only briefly and only about S12. She has continued to complain about my not engaging her and still asks to talk about school tuition/schedule/etc.
I did start the divorce process but then stopped without filing to pay school tuition. I did not tell her I was filing. Then XW did file. I have not acknowledged receiving the papers.
A few weeks ago, she sent a text to me that was intended for her OM about spending the night at his place. I did not mention it but, after a few hours, I texted her that I would not be available to her via phone or text for the time being and that she should email me when needed. I then blocked her from my mobile phone.
Then came today and this email from her sent at 1AM...
Hi HP,
If you are willing, I would like to talk about us, our marriage and how we can become a family again.
Are you willing to see if we have a chance again?7 hours later I test with...
What has changed XW?She replies an hour later...
Hi HP,
I had a very intense session with IC yesterday and I realized that I haven't fully thought through our relationship and that I have a great deal of sadness and anger about us, our marriage, and the impact of our marriage and separation on our S12. I have filed for divorce, and it struck me as the most insane thing to do given that we have not fully talked about us, and that this is a decision that will have a tremendous impact on our lives.
I have also been feeling an incredible amount of depression and sadness about the way we ended, and the impact of this on S12.
I want to make sure that you and I truly do not have - or maybe we have - any foundation to stand on. I don't know. I am not sure. Our separation has been difficult and a bit different that that for most couples, given that we haven't talked about us or engaged in any real significant manner since you left in Dec. To complicate things even more, I began seeing OM on a very regular basis after you left and have developed a relationship with him. What should have happened was that we spent more time talking, and me less time seeing him. But that is not what happened. I did not handle any of it the right way. Instead, anger ruled both of us, and now we are in this place.
What I do know is that we owe it S12 and to ourselves to spend some time together to see if we have anything more to give to our marriage. If we determine that we don't, I will respect that and move on, as I am sure you will also.
HP, I know you don't believe me, but I have thought of you each and every day and I have grieved tremendously over the pain I have caused both you and our son. I am not sure what the future holds, but I believe in my heart that we must talk once more and make sure that this is the right thing for us.
I will understand if you are not interested to talk to me. Whatever happens moving forward, I pray with my entire soul that one day you and I will have a friendship based on our bond with S12.....he is going to give us beautiful grandchildren one of these days and I want to share his life and his future in such a way where you and I can be comfortable and loving with one another.
Thanks for taking the time to read this.
Then, 4 hours later she sends...
I'm really sorry I even sent you this email. it was wrong and probably not the best thing to do given your silence. I guess I was simply having a moment of sadness after my session yesterday and really shouldn't have dumped anything on you. I have no right to think that you would ever want to remotely talk about us and since I'm certainly in no position to offer you any guarantees ... why would you want to.? I won't reach out to you and bother you about any of this again. take care of yourself.I was going to parse all this with plenty mind reading in a long email like I used to. I recognize her testing my boundaries and keeping me in her drama. It's like the time she pushed marriage counseling while not being willing to give up her A.
But then I remembered I have goals...
- I'm moving to Florida by December.
- I'm building a home there for S12 to move to next summer.
- I'm improving myself, my finances, my health, and my happiness everyday.
Everything I do must move me in that direction.
While I do not need to, I'm still open to working on our M, but it has to be real and right and in line with my goals. So my thinking the only email answer to the above is something like...
XW. If you end your relationship and all contact with OM, I think you will find me willing to talk about and work on any and all issues -- including my own role in the prior problems we had in our M. But that ball is squarely in your court.Except she already knows that. I made that clear in December. And I prefer to not mention OM.
So maybe I'm back to repeating the action that got me here... doing nothing.
What do you think? Is there a loving way to answer saying I would talk about R under the right conditions and before I leave for Florida without being controlling or compromising my goals? Can I make the road home smoother today?
Thank you again for all the help you give me on the board. It does feel nice to be back considering.
Oh golly! I think you need a vet HP.....
I agree, it probably isn't best to go straight back in with the OM thing. She has laid herself pretty bare in that email to you.
Might it be best to suggest meeting up for coffee or having a phone chat and hear more about where she is at with things? Of course the killer question for you is always going to be 'what's happening with OM?' And you would need to ask that at some point of course.
You could always send her a holding email along the lines of - W, thanks for your email. I appreciate your honesty and truly I need to think about all you have said before I come back to you. I'll reply as soon as I can. Take care, HP
I'm certainly in no position to offer you any guarantees ... why would you want to.?
Sounds to me like she is continuing to be the VICTIM and YES she is testing your changes to see if they are real.
Maybe she senses that she is losing her grip on you.
Would you want her back in this broken state?
That is the real question, IMHO.
Maybe all is not wonderful in paradise - and you are the first candidate for being OM #2.
What do YOU want?
IF you even want her back in her current state (and I agree with Cadet, she still sounds pretty "woe-is-me," and I wonder how much work she's REALLY done on herself these past several months . . .
I would respond with something like "You know what my conditions are for a reconciliation; they haven't changed. If you're ready to commit to that, please let me know. I don't expect you to be able to guarantee your FEELINGS for me for quite some time (and that will be difficult for me to guarantee as well), but the ACTIONS I would need to see have not and will not changed."
Something like that?
Starsky
Hey HP,
I don't think we need a vet to say that there cannot be a reconciliation with OM present in her life. Otherwise both you and the OM are just backup plans while she enjoys both worlds.
Let's skip mind reading and look at what she wrote specifically.
I have a great deal of sadness and anger about us, our marriage, and the impact of our marriage and separation on our S12.
I have also been feeling an incredible amount of depression and sadness about the way we ended, and the impact of this on S12.
HP, I know you don't believe me, but I have thought of you each and every day and I have grieved tremendously over the pain I have caused both you and our son.
I found her email full of guilt. Guilt that she has broken the family and her trouble in dealing with the associated misery. But nowhere HP is any indication that she feels her actions against you and S12 were wrong. Remorse is missing from her email. No apparent desire to reconcile her actions against what has happened isn't there.
To complicate things even more, I began seeing OM on a very regular basis after you left and have developed a relationship with him.
No indication of an end.
I will understand if you are not interested to talk to me. Whatever happens moving forward, I pray with my entire soul that one day you and I will have a friendship based on our bond with S12.....he is going to give us beautiful grandchildren one of these days and I want to share his life and his future in such a way where you and I can be comfortable and loving with one another.
I have no right to think that you would ever want to remotely talk about us and since I'm certainly in no position to offer you any guarantees ... why would you want to.? I won't reach out to you and bother you about any of this again. take care of yourself.
Reverse psychology at it's finest. She wants you as a friend and her relationship with S12 is troubled. You've denied all that to her over these months. She misses the consistency of your presence while indulging in her OM. The fantasy is breaking down because she needs HP as a part of that equation. She is now facing reality, but still desperately clings to cake eating. That email was a hail mary attempt.
XW. If you end your relationship and all contact with OM, I think you will find me willing to talk about and work on any and all issues -- including my own role in the prior problems we had in our M. But that ball is squarely in your court.
BINGO. Nothing has changed. Don't fall for the cake eating.
I have nothing to add other than the fact that you have one of the coolest names on this board. I imagine you walking out into knee deep water and "swimming" standing up.
Cheers.
PP
Hey HP,
I don't think we need a vet to say that there cannot be a reconciliation with OM present in her life. Otherwise both you and the OM are just backup plans while she enjoys both worlds.
Let's skip mind reading and look at what she wrote specifically.
I have a great deal of sadness and anger about us, our marriage, and the impact of our marriage and separation on our S12.
I have also been feeling an incredible amount of depression and sadness about the way we ended, and the impact of this on S12.
HP, I know you don't believe me, but I have thought of you each and every day and I have grieved tremendously over the pain I have caused both you and our son.
I found her email full of guilt. Guilt that she has broken the family and her trouble in dealing with the associated misery. But nowhere HP is any indication that she feels her actions against you and S12 were wrong. Remorse is missing from her email. No apparent desire to reconcile her actions against what has happened isn't there.
To complicate things even more, I began seeing OM on a very regular basis after you left and have developed a relationship with him.
No indication of an end.
I will understand if you are not interested to talk to me. Whatever happens moving forward, I pray with my entire soul that one day you and I will have a friendship based on our bond with S12.....he is going to give us beautiful grandchildren one of these days and I want to share his life and his future in such a way where you and I can be comfortable and loving with one another.
I have no right to think that you would ever want to remotely talk about us and since I'm certainly in no position to offer you any guarantees ... why would you want to.? I won't reach out to you and bother you about any of this again. take care of yourself.
Reverse psychology at it's finest. She wants you as a friend and her relationship with S12 is troubled. You've denied all that to her over these months. She misses the consistency of your presence while indulging in her OM. The fantasy is breaking down because she needs HP as a part of that equation. She is now facing reality, but still desperately clings to cake eating. That email was a hail mary attempt.
XW. If you end your relationship and all contact with OM, I think you will find me willing to talk about and work on any and all issues -- including my own role in the prior problems we had in our M. But that ball is squarely in your court.
BINGO. Nothing has changed. Don't fall for the cake eating.
Great post, TenBook.
Starsky
I've learned from the absolute best.
IMHO, I would not reply. Why give her the indication that HP is still waiting in the wings? To give her comfort that her indiscretions have no time penalty.
My response, if I even chose to say anything.
"I am sorry that you feel that way."
I'm certainly in no position to offer you any guarantees ... why would you want to.?
Maybe she senses that she is losing her grip on you.
This.
This statement boils it all down. She is realizing that she is losing control over you.
Sometimes a short reply (and I like yours!) is better than no reply at all, much like leaving a DIME for a tip for bad service at a restaurant is better than leaving NO tip.
NOTHING makes them wonder if you simply forgot, or didn't get it.
I like Starsky's pitched reply. A lot.
I'm as hard-lined as the next guy so I may be missing something here, based on my reading of some of the other responses.
Maybe I'm a bleeding heart or an eternal optimist. Maybe I'm just "a girl." But if there's a chance that a M will be reconciled - especially if there's been little-to-no physical contact for months, as in HP's case, and HP is detached (as he obviously is) - I don't see a thing wrong with cracking the door open as long as it's a response and not initiated. Just a crack.
I think there's good cause to be cynical, of course. But to just not respond to an email like that - or to be pis$y in a response - seems, well, frankly, cruel and vindictive. And careless.
Maybe it's because I'm not reading too deeply into her letter to discover hidden meanings and agendas? Because it seems to me, as I think it was Toots who said, she pretty much laid her heart out there. Okay so a half-cocked heart. She clearly isn't making a commitment. But she has to start *somewhere*. Why not be humane and respond?
Again, I really REALLY like what Starsky pitched.
I agree ... and that follow up 4 hours later looks like a Pursuit tactic we all would be water-boarded for.
I might crack the door open but with a very stern voice ... at least to get it to the discussion table, its not like in one email you will 'be happily ever after' ... I would at the least be open to talking, restating your terms and conditions and if she can not live with that ... its all on her.
Lovely to have you back HP.
I can't help with this one except to say this email of WW does not surprise me, not one little bit.
HP a man and father only a fool would leave.
V
HP
I had a similar conversation with my XW last night. She had been trying to get me to talk with her and tried to open conversation with me a couple of times. I finally agreed to talk with her.
I left her to show me action if she wants to fix what has happened between us. I am not going to stall out and wait around hoping or wishing. She needs to start with action, which I told her.
I did press her and ask if she wanted "me". She skirted the issue and said she wanted to be happy, optimistic, etc. I pressed again and she said she wanted "me". I need to see action to back up the words. Until then I am staying dark.
Hope your life continues well for you, you seem to have a good plan going to you in the next 6 months.
HP, thrilled to have you back on the boards. You are in good hands here, just wanted to say hi.
sunny ( rppfl)
Hello Toots, Cadet, Starsky, TenBook, PigPen, Train, CaliGuy, Vanilla, gogofo, rppfl, and the Overweight Lover HeavyD. It's really wonderful to hear from all of you on this new thing with XW today.
I've been doing very well being pitch black NC with the XW. She has said I'm punishing her... but I do it for me. So that I can get my mind back and move forward in a big way. To detach. To be the big planet moving in his own direction... she the little planet orbiting me.
There is really nothing I need from her. I ask her for nothing and expect nothing from her. It is opposite for her.
I think I am detaching well but I am not yet detached. She can still affect me like she seems to want to but she has to do something big... like send me a text intended for her OM calling him sweetheart then texting it was a mistake and then continuing to text me in a friendly tone about S12 like it didn't happen.
Then she expresses "frustration" that I don't respond to anything and tries to guilt me about it.
That is her word with me... "frustration." I have not done anything she has hoped or expected me to do apparently. Not like other couples she knows where the man bent over backwards to appease and keep the WAW close. Not me.
So then today... yes Cadet I want a woman who answers "What's changed? I realized I've done a terrible thing to you and S12. I've stopped seeing OM and want to see if there is a chance for us. Can we talk?" That is the right and only and obvious answer you give to an XH who left you and does not answer your calls after your A.
To send the answer she sent was kind of unbelievable. I know from my reading that her answer is common cake eating. But to try it now after everything that has happened... to think that I would say "sure let's talk" when you say you've been seeing OM "very regularly" and you were wrong to do that but still apparently have not stopped? Does she want me to compete to get her back like in the movies? She wants me to make her stop seeing OM and is frustrated I won't play along? Wow.
I should not have to reiterate my position. She said in her reply "What should have happened was that we spent more time talking, and me less time seeing him." Yes! That is what I told you then (just no time with him ever again)! That's why I left you and took S12! Wow.
But that's how it is with WAS and I know that now. So I'm not surprised... and I was going to ignore it b/c silliness.
But, like you said here, it's a chance to open a crack while still staying firm. That's what I wanted. Thank you for expressing it better than I could.
So, when she has done work with the IC, when she accepts and acts on what she already knows... I'm not having anything to do with her while she's involved with OM... then I am willing to talk.
(Note on the IC... it is the same excellent woman I started seeing during the worst of this. She knows my side of this. I stopped going and gave permission for XW to see her. She is a tough "harsh reality" lady and I'm not surprised XW was shaken by their meeting. If I do ever speak with XW, it will be with IC present.)
Her answer is also her pattern... if I push back on what she wants to do (e.g. asking "what's changed?"), she sends back a long explanation type answer that doesn't answer my question at all. Then, later, she'll walk back some of what she said or offer a compromise that she doesn't expect me to take. She does it every time.
So no, she's not really ready to do the hard work of R. She wants me to play along again... holding out a bone she doesn't seem to realize can be hurtful to me. I'm not jumping.
But I did jump a little didn't I?... I asked myself "why is she doing this?" Would she really offer talking about seeing if there's a chance for us just so she can feel in control of the situation? Wow.
Even so, Train, I agree with you that this is an opportunity to "start somewhere." It can't hurt to try as I am already out the door.
One thing I have been working on should "starting somewhere" ever happen with XW (or some other lucky lady) is being present. Fully listening. So, I have found that validating what XW says works in that it creates connection and that is what she really wants. It's what I want too.
So, instead of reiterating my boundary which she knows or ignoring her again... Maybe I'm going to show her curiosity.
Maybe I'll reply... "XW. You seem upset. Are you OK? "
I can always reiterate my R talk boundary as Starsky suggests later.
I remember when I used to spend everyday like this... calculating every response. Day after day. Not healthy.
Anyway... we'll see what happens.
Onwards.
Great to have you back HP.
Well spotted on your XW's behavior.
Keep us informed.
Hello again. Just to hopefully close today off XW replies...
Hi HP, I am OK. Thank you for asking.
Sorry to have bothered you.
Again with the bothering me.
Thing is... it would be nice to talk with her. I would like to tell her that it was no bother and yes I would like to speak with her about being a family again. I want to be a family if it can work and be wonderful.
Still, I know better to jump at things like her email or to let her affect me even this much. I know that her last temper tantrum email and the "sorry to have bothered you" is designed to make me feel like reaching out to her. To feel sorry for her.
So, if you're new at this... listen to vets... decrease contact with WAS... NO R TALKS... move forward bravely. It gets better.
A few months ago, a day like today would have been devastating. Now it is a groan... some pacing... and finally a shrug.
I have made bad mistakes and had my XW cursing screaming at me. I still get to the day where the XW reconsiders a little and says so. Maybe it gets better.
Even if it doesn't... I keep going.
Onward.
I have decided I will reiterate my boundary to XW in the morning just to let her know the crack is there. Something like...
XW. I appreciate your being open with me yesterday. I thought about what you said and, if we did talk, I wouldn't expect you to guarantee anything to me for quite some time (and it would be difficult for me to guarantee anything as well). But, the actions I would need to see before we talk have not changed. If you're ready to commit to those actions, then I am willing to talk with you about us. Just let me know.
Is that good? Reading it I'm not sure. I'll sleep on it.
Good night.
I have decided I will reiterate my boundary to XW in the morning just to let her know the crack is there. Something like...
XW. I appreciate your being open with me yesterday. I thought about what you said and, if we did talk, I wouldn't expect you to guarantee anything to me for quite some time (and it would be difficult for me to guarantee anything as well). But,the actions I would need to see by youbefore we talk have not changed. If you're ready to commit to those actions, then I am willing to talk with you about us. Just let me know.
Is that good? Reading it I'm not sure. I'll sleep on it.
Good night.
I am sure Wonka will comment too.
V
HP! Been wondering about you. Nice to see you back here (if you know what I mean).
So I'm not vet, but I had a similar reaction to Train and Toots (perhaps it *is* a girl thing). The thing is, women need to talk through their stuff in order to figure things out. Men, well you go off into your caves and figure it out (or not) on your own. The thing that terrifies me the most about DBing is that I am an LBW with a WAH...I'm in the dark and just can't ever see him turning round and expressing that he made a mistake even if he comes to the conclusion that he did.
If I were an LBW who wanted to R - then as a woman - I think this is exactly how I would do it. Write an email laying it all out and asking if we can talk. I would try to word it carefully but it may not stand up to the scrutiny of dozens of LBH who are reading between the lines!
I think she did answer your question but in her own words. It was not the answer you were looking for, but it does reflect her views of how her feelings have changed.
I suggest a softer approach. Not wet noodle by any means, but one that honestly reflects your position:
"XW. I appreciate your being open with me yesterday. I thought about what you said and given all that has happened it is hard for me to imagine a way back from here. That being said, if you genuinely feel that you are ready to talk about being a family again - and all that that would involve - then I am willing to listen."
Starsky's reply was - and still is - quite brilliant, IMO.
But considering the email exchange (ugh), I might change it up a bit. Here's a suggestion, but I'd be interested to know what others think:
W, let me be clear: I agree with what you wrote in many ways. Still, I've made clear my conditions for being able to entertain the idea of eventually reconciling our marriage and family. Those conditions stand. Once you've met them, I'm all ears.
Thoughts?
I like that version best Train.
V
Here's what I see. She continues with her master manipulation. Check it out in her email 4 hrs later when you didn't respond as quickly as she wanted.
I'm really sorry I even sent you this email. it was wrong and probably not the best thing to do given your silence. I guess I was simply having a moment of sadness after my session yesterday and really shouldn't have dumped anything on you. I have no right to think that you would ever want to remotely talk about us and since I'm certainly in no position to offer you any guarantees ... why would you want to.? I won't reach out to you and bother you about any of this again. take care of yourself.
Now every woman on this board knows what this gal is doing in that second email.
HP, look back at her first email. Although she admits she caused you and s12 pain, is she owning responsibility for breaking apart the family? Maybe it's just me, but it seems she is drawing you into her statements about how it's affected the boy. She even tried to be subtle about how "you" were the one who left (target shooting). As always, it's all about her feelings and she wants to talk it out..........which is nothing new. So I agree with your question of "what has charged"?
My sample response would be something along these lines.
"W, your words have not fallen on deaf ears. We all have suffered a great deal, and will need to make necessary steps to heal. At this moment, I can truthfully say that I would consider going to family therapy, or MC, provided all contact with OM has ended and he knows you won't return to the A. This a prerequisite to the possibility of becoming a family again, and you are the only one in the position to guarantee it. I can't say how long I may be able to wait for you to decide, for as you said, things have become more complicated".
^^ Agree with the manipulation. She comments quite a bit how everything effects S12 and placing the focus there. Then when you don't reply she makes it seem like a mistake to try and talk about reconciliation because YOU are silent, placing the blame back on you for whatever happens. Its possible the guilt of whats shes done is starting to take hold and shes trying to figure out why. Still, this could be a good thing in the future. Something is changing in her and that change may be her realizing what shes missing in a R with you, she may just not know how to face it without placing herself in a vulnerable position.
HP, pay attention to what Sandi, Starsky and Train are all saying here, and they are dead on in the analysis of your W. She's starting to see that her path is not great, but she is nowhere near committing to come back.
Your proposed answer was way too soft (IMHO) in that you say you aren't looking for a guarantee on the outcome of the R. We all know by now that there are no guarantees in anything, so don't even bother going down that path - it's a stroll through a minefield.
However, what you are looking for is commitment. Commitment is totally under your W's control and could be done immediately. As Starsky has often said, the feelings may take months to come back, but it doesn't take more than a minute to make the commitment to undertake the endeavor. And that commitment was totally missing in any of her emails.
What does it matter how she feels about this or that, wondering if you have a chance together, or how she hopes you can eventually be friends, blah, blah, blah. The last thing I would want to do is have a meeting with her to talk about stuff like that. If, on the other hand, she were telling you she was committed to making a R work, and specifically saying what she is doing to ensure that the goal will be reached, well that's a talk worth having.
So, you should respond so as not to appear to be ignoring her. But keep it simple, and in line with what you need, which is a commitment. And I wouldn't spoon feed her the commitment you need if you want it to really come from her.
By the way, you sound great, in control, and being off the AD's is good, too.
Hey very good morning Vanilla, gan, Train, Sandi and Fogg. I so appreciate all of your feedback while I slept. Thank you so much and again.
Feeling fantastic this morning and woke with a few thoughts before reading your feedback...
- I did not accomplish my goals yesterday so I won't continue this distraction.
- XW is not being the kind of woman I decided I want to meet in my future.
- This is only an opportunity to state my needs to her in MC and see if she can meet them.
- Sitch is better when I am clear and brief with her about my needs.
- My asking if she was OK was not needed and not clear.
- Don't make and move on decisions when you're tired and it's late.
I got here by being direct with her and focusing on moving forward. I don't stop every time she has a panic attack anymore.
So, I woke up with this to say to her and then move on...
XW. I heard what you said yesterday and you're right... these are important decisions that impact all our lives. I've given your words a lot of thought and yes I do want to talk with you about us and how we can be a family again. No, I won't do that if you're seeing someone else. If things change for you before I leave for Florida, let me know and I promise we will have a good talk about us.I'm not going to spend all day on this again b/c moving forward. I will now re-read this thread to decide which response if any to use to accomplish these things...
- Let XW know I've heard her and take her seriously.
- Let XW know there is a way back.
- Let XW know I'm not option #2.
- Let XW know I'm moving forward no matter what.
- Do this in a loving, non controlling way.
- Do this in a way where I'm not capitulating to her manipulations.
- Do this in a way where I'm not participating in her drama.
Now I've just read zew's post (hey zew). Yes you're right... I'm trying to soften all the sample replies given here. I'm used to replying in a business like way to her or outright ignoring her.
I think the difference here, though, is... this is a communication that I wanted her to make. How can we be a family again. I'm trying to reward her for bringing it up by being gentle. I'm remembering what DB coach said and 25's words on empathy.
But then, she has not shown any commitment yet like all of you have said. Looks like I'm not at the point where I can be gentle with her. Everything she says still requires testing.
Funny... I realize I'm angling for months of dealing with a depressed, backsliding, angry, confused person.
I'm not in a hurry to send something, so like I said I'll re-read and rethink and let you know what I'll send before I do. I know each email is not make or break. I know that break is far from the worst thing that can happen.
But yes, the main thing is I would need to see is a commitment.
If I'm honest (and I am),I don't think I will get one and that's no problem.
No problem at all.
Onward.
Hey HP!
Welcome back to the Fun House! Good to hear from you again.
You need to feel emotionally safe before you even consider R with XW. I am with Sandi that XW needs to own up to her poor choices and take full responsibility for her actions...not boffing them off to you.
Hey very good morning Vanilla, gan, Train, Sandi and Fogg. I so appreciate all of your feedback while I slept. Thank you so much and again.
Feeling fantastic this morning and woke with a few thoughts before reading your feedback...
- I did not accomplish my goals yesterday so I won't continue this distraction.
- XW is not being the kind of woman I decided I want to meet in my future.
- This is only an opportunity to state my needs to her in MC and see if she can meet them.
- Sitch is better when I am clear and brief with her about my needs.
- My asking if she was OK was not needed and not clear.
- Don't make and move on decisions when you're tired and it's late.
I got here by being direct with her and focusing on moving forward. I don't stop every time she has a panic attack anymore.
So, I woke up with this to say to her and then move on...
XW. I heard what you said yesterday and you're right... these are important decisions that impact all our lives. I've given your words a lot of thought and yes I do want to talk with you about us and how we can be a family again. No, I won't do that if you're seeing someone else. If things change for you before I leave for Florida, let me know and I promise we will have a good talk about us.I'm not going to spend all day on this again b/c moving forward. I will now re-read this thread to decide which response if any to use to accomplish these things...
- Let XW know I've heard her and take her seriously.
- Let XW know there is a way back.
- Let XW know I'm not option #2.
- Let XW know I'm moving forward no matter what.
- Do this in a loving, non controlling way.
- Do this in a way where I'm not capitulating to her manipulations.
- Do this in a way where I'm not participating in her drama.
Now I've just read zew's post (hey zew). Yes you're right... I'm trying to soften all the sample replies given here. I'm used to replying in a business like way to her or outright ignoring her.
I think the difference here, though, is... this is a communication that I wanted her to make. How can we be a family again. I'm trying to reward her for bringing it up by being gentle. I'm remembering what DB coach said and 25's words on empathy.
But then, she has not shown any commitment yet like all of you have said. Looks like I'm not at the point where I can be gentle with her. Everything she says still requires testing.
Funny... I realize I'm angling for months of dealing with a depressed, backsliding, angry, confused person.
I'm not in a hurry to send something, so like I said I'll re-read and rethink and let you know what I'll send before I do. I know each email is not make or break. I know that break is far from the worst thing that can happen.
But yes, the main thing is I would need to see is a commitment.
If I'm honest (and I am),I don't think I will get one and that's no problem.
No problem at all.
Onward.
Based on this ^^^^ HP,
I think you've got this. 
Starsky
Hi HP, I am OK. Thank you for asking.
Sorry to have bothered you.
This one got me as her fishing and playing the "poor me" card and trying to get a response. I assume she was wanting you to respond with "Oh, its okay. You are not bothering me." I agree with everyone else, she is fishing for control or trying to manipulate.
I left my XW with the position of if we try it needs to be only us, not and open relationship, and I need commitment. I also told her it is her move. She needs to show action. Until then I am not changing my interactions with her.
In the past I would have been broke down and so hopeful about the future again, not now. I guess I can learn something after a couple of tries.
HP I think we are waiting for the same thing, action. From there we can hopefully get into MC and work SLOWLY at reconciliation. My XW mentioned we needed MC to do this. I was surprised that she said it before I did as one of my conditions.
All of this can about because her IC told her to approach me about finding closure because everything else she tried was not working. After a some conversation I told her she has a "Gogofo" shaped hole in her and the D was not the solution to help fix her life. It was the wrong decision.
It sounds like your XW may be slowly seeing the fog lift to and that HP was not the source of all of her problems.
Keep on doing you, it has been working and will continue to work.
It sounds like your XW may be slowly seeing the fog lift to and that HP was not the source of all of her problems.
Keep on doing you, it has been working and will continue to work.
This brings up an important point. Well, TWO:
1. If this IC is as good and as challenging as you say she is, then HP's wife is likely to continue to make progress with her in terms of "doing the work" and realizing the full damage of her choices, and what needs to be done to make it right, no?
2. "Offers," or "cracks" such as yesterday's emails should not be seen as one-time opportunities, that if we don't respond juuuuust right, are forever lost to the sands of time. If your wife is truly repentant and desiring of working on reconciliation with you, she will continue to pursue that, and likely in increasingly satisfactory ways (see Point #1). And if she's NOT sincere, then you shouldn't touch the "offer" with a 10-foot pole.
Starsky
HP, I have been following this thread. This interests me alot because I started to think about how I would react if I received an email like that from my STBX one day. You sound like you are in a good place and I am happy for you. I have a daughter about the same age as your son.
I am no vet. But I do really like what Sandi said. I guess I picked up on some of the same things she did. My STBXW was very manipulative in our marriage and always avoided accepting responsibility. She would accept it on her terms. We are all adults here! She needs to put on her big girl panties and own it!! I also like zew's post. I think I can agree with them both.
After dealing with my kids emotional problems last night from our situation, if I were in your shoes, she would have to make a big commitment. You are not just dealing with you and your emotions, if things turn south again, your S has to go through all that crap again. To me, I would be willing to talk. But at that talk, I would want to hear those words " I am so sorry and I messed up and what do I have to do to work on things". Just my 2 cents!
Great points gogofo, Starsky, and Joe46. I am slipping back into that "must get it just right" thing like this "offer" from her is a real and once in a lifetime golden prize. If I just ignored this and she came back after more IC time with more commitment, that would be better long term R or no.
For now, I'll not ignore her emails. I'll go with a tweak on my words which I think says what all the sample replies you all offered says but in my own words...
XW. I heard what you said yesterday and you're right... these are important decisions that impact all our lives. I've given your words a lot of thought and yes together we should talk about us and how we might be a family again. No, I won't do that if you're seeing someone else. If things change for you before I leave for Florida, let me know when they do and I promise you we will have a good talk about us together with IC.
I validate her words, tell her what I will and won't do, give her a timeframe to do what I expect, and leave the rest up to her.
Done and moving on.
Thank you all again for your help. I really do hope this is helpful to anyone who gets to this point.
I remember when I felt desperate to get a chance to respond to an email like this. Now it's funny how this is such a pain in the a$$.
Now I will put on my spew jacket and not check my email until I go to sleep.
Onward.
Hello HP.
Just wanted to stop by and say hi. I've thought about you often.
I'm happy to hear that you are still planning and heading toward your future with your son. Keep it up HP.
as you say - onward
Cheers!
HP, I am glad this has come up. I think you are handling it correctly. Not just jumping in and asking for opinions. I have thought about this quite a few times. I did tell myself that if it did ever come up, my response would be, "I am going to have to really think this over and get back to you". My reasons for that response would be, am I willing to take a chance again? Am I willing to take a chance with my kids going through this again? Will I ever be able to trust her again? Is she really sincere or is the because she is lonely and things aren't working out like she hoped? My feelings are, if she is sincere, she would do whatever it takes to try and work things out. Even if that means emailing you several times or calling several times.
One thought I had, didn't you say you were getting ready to move away? This would explain a few things about the email and maybe some reality hitting her.
Hi HP. I hope it's ok to comment While I would follow the advice of the vets I would also see this as a sign from W that all is not perfect in paradise It seems she is thinking and that's got to be good. I feel my sitch is done because W has been sad since day 1 of leaving and just went into ADs because of depression
Your W is thinking and it might be a start Maybe not but what's your end goal ? Do you want W back , could you forgive ?
Again , I'm as far from a vet as possible but hopefully all opinions might help you form your own
Take care. Rd
Sounds like a good reply HP. As you say, best to keep moving on and see how things unfold. For sure, I think you are absolutely right not to become 'OM' if your W is still involved in another R ...
Can I ask? I recall you were having contact with another woman around the time you stopped posting. I wondered whether that was part of the reason you left the forum for a while? Please feel free not to answer if it is too intrusive..
Also, what would it mean for your W if you and S do move away. Would she be a good distance from you then?
Really glad to see you back on the forum and look forward to seeing how things go for you xx
Yep!
Lead. It's attractive (well, not to ME mind you, but . . . oh, YOU know what I mean!!! )
Just updating... I looked at my phone for another reason and saw she replied so just went ahead and read it. Not terrible and not unexpected...
Thanks HP for getting back to me.
What has not changed is the fact that I still feel that - regardless of me seeing someone or not - we should have talked more.
But I honestly I do understand your point of view and respect it.
Even if we don't talk about us, we need to talk about S12 at least. Are you willing to do that? To talk about the school year, what he will need, visitation and custody, and what your plans are for moving to Florida?
Thanks,
XW
That last part she knows we do and have done over email. And still with this "no matter what I was doing, you should have talked to me/not left/not made me homeless and things would have been better."
So lesson again... it's no use fussing over these conversations. It's really no use parsing what the WAS says. It's actions and commitment initiated by them that you have to look for. You can only state your needs and boundaries, don't expect any outcome, and keep moving forward.
So, no reply, nothing more to say, and moving on.
Chiming in HP, as I've been reading your updates with great interest!
She thinks that you and she should have talked more about your relationship even though she was seeing someone else? If so, she is a piece of work.
Maybe she just wants to have a more cordial co-parenting relationship with you. (Is that what she means by becoming a family again??)
It *is* in your son's best interest that you and she can have conversations about him...
What an interesting story you have HP. I don't have great advice but thank you for sharing your up dates. There is a lot for all of us to learn.
I agree - your W does sound like she is still in pitiful me mode. I don't read any remorse in her messages and still is implicitly blaming you for her behaviors - which is not fair. The whole "we should have talked more." is blame shifting in my opinion.
Carry on but I really think you are making progress.
Be well
Heavy
HP,
If I were you, I'd call out W on her "should have talked to me" comment by deflecting her responsibility in the A. She cannot blame it on you.
No more pussy footing around here. She asked about coming home and working on the M. So you have to be direct here.
HP,
Good to see you around. Obviously, your XW is being manipulative and trying to get you where she wants you. At an armslenghth. Not too close, yet not too far away.
What she says means nothing, until her actions align with her words. Here's my suggestion on a response.
XW,
I have put a lot of thought into your emails about our situation. First, I have put forth the effort to work on myself and will continue to do so. My life is heading in a positive direction, which I have learned to enjoy. Communicating about S12 through email works best for me. If I were to consider working on re-building a relationship with you, it would have to be without any outside influence. Otherwise, it simply doesn't work for me. Hope this makes sense.
HP
Anyway, welcome back. You got this.
As LITB seems to be referencing, there seems to be a balance to make sure that the effort is genuine, not just giving her the cake. I think action seems to be the separator between cake eating and genuine effort.
HP, what is best for you and S12?
As a family unit. Is your dad still supportive?
V
XW,
I have put a lot of thought into your emails about our situation. First, I have put forth the effort to work on myself and will continue to do so. My life is heading in a positive direction, which I have learned to enjoy. Communicating about S12 through email works best for me. If I were to consider working on re-building a relationship with you, it would have to be without any outside influence. Otherwise, it simply doesn't work for me. Hope this makes sense.
HP
But only if you reply at all. Why keep reiterating your boundary, that only weakens it.
XW,
I have put a lot of thought into your emails about our situation. First, I have put forth the effort to work on myself and will continue to do so. My life is heading in a positive direction, which I have learned to enjoy. Communicating about S12 through email works best for me. If I were to consider working on re-building a relationship with you, it would have to be without any outside influence. Otherwise, it simply doesn't work for me. Hope this makes sense.
HP
But only if you reply at all. Why keep reiterating your boundary, that only weakens it.
Yeah, I agree that would work better. Wonder which direction HP went.
He will let us know I think?
V
HP...glad you are back and that you are moving forward with your goals. Keep on keeping on, my friend. Prayers for you and your son.
Hello Train and everyone. I'm back to update with the latest sitch challenge...
After the "are you willing to talk about us" email exchange with my XW, I let myself fall into a low energy funk for a couple weeks...
What happened was, I didn't reply to her last email asking again to talk.
After a few days, I sent her an separate email saying, to help things go smoother going forward, I needed a legal agreement on who would pay what for S12's upcoming 6th grade school year and that XW agreed S12 would start 7th grade with me in Florida.
She suggested making S12s move to Florida with me a legal agreement back in April. I see I should have finalized that agreement back then. Not doing so was a mistake.
She replied she would get a notarized tuition schedule document that we could both sign together in person. She said she was uncomfortable signing a paper saying S12 would move with me to Florida.
A couple days later, she was back to sending me an email saying she was getting a D and wanted it done before I left for Florida. XW also sent emails upset again about me not responding to her emails. I did not respond to any of that.
She sent someone here to the condo serve me with D papers. I had the doorman turn him away.
So I did backslide on my PMA then. I stopped checking in here. I stopped working out. I ate badly and started in with the beer again. I felt down. Letting myself get sucked into her drama again was a drain, though not nearly as bad as it was before.
Last week I finally got up and started eating right. Making my protein shakes. Lost the 10 pounds I put on. Today I did my morning workout. Felt great. Got stuff done. Decided I would move to Florida in early November instead of late December to start building a new life for me and S12. Started thinking about the email to XW explaining my plan and school options I wanted her to consider for S12.
It was a good day.
Then, tonight, I see an email from XW titled...
"I can't believe you would leave this city and leave S12."
She now suggests I get another job here instead of keeping my job and moving to Florida. Urges me to reconsider moving to Florida even though she says she knows it would be hard for me to stay here considering our problems. Says, the more she thinks about it, the more she doesn't think S12 living with me in Florida is a good idea. Says that before she only "implied" S12 could move to Florida. Says it would not be an option to have him start school with me until the 8th grade and only if she and I are in a different place in our relationship. Again and as usual she wants to talk.
So I'm glad I got back on my feet these past few days. I need to be strong now and I am.
I was just telling my dad on the phone the other night that I was afraid that this might happen. Now I have to deal with it.
I have talked with S12 over the past few weeks about moving to Florida after this next school year. Just today he was saying, when we get there, he would like to learn to kiteboard and get a jet ski. That part I did well.
I realize I did not do well communicating with XW. Everyday I'm thinking of the email to send her detailing the nice neighborhoods and schools I am considering. I waited too long to do that and now I'm facing a possible court battle.
In her email she says she can't believe I'm leaving S12... using language like she has from the beginning to browbeat me into doing what she wants.
But, in her email from April, she basically laid out the plan how the move would work and why I'm leaving first and S12 later... instead of me and S12 leaving together this summer and him starting school in Florida this year, I agreed that it would be good for S12 to stay here from one last school year. I would leave at the end of this year and get settled in Florida. Then S12 would come at the end of his school year, spend next summer getting settled himself, and then start school.
So I have to reply. I don't want to go to court. I won't pay for tuition here and for a lawyer at the same time. I will homeschool him if I have to. And, whatever happens, I am moving.
So I'm thinking I try to keep it simple like I've been doing...
XW, thank you for sharing your thoughts. I am taking my company's offer to move to Florida this year.
As you know, I agreed to not move last June with S12 like I asked you to so S12 could do 6th grade here. I agreed with you that another year here would be a positive transition to 7th grade in Florida.
Your (attached?) email from April lays out a good plan where I go to get settled in Florida so S12 has the best move and experience possible. If I could stay here until the end of 6th grade and still take advantage of my company's offer to pay for S12 and me to move then I certainly would.
I have also talked with Solomon over the past few weeks about living in Florida after 6th grade. We have sat together and looked at possible neighborhoods, parks where we could go mountain biking and camping, homes for sale with yards and pools and tennis courts and kids that go to school with his cousins. Today he told me he was excited to learn to kite surf and jet ski when we get there. Talk with him about it. I will do everything to make sure his life there is fun, outdoorsy, and special.
As for a home, I am considering 3 specific A+ family oriented neighborhoods like (best neighborhood in this area) in Broward county west of Fort Lauderdale. I will send you a list of the schools I have found there for you to consider including some A+ rated public schools. As you know, I need to arrange for S12 to visit the schools in the fall.
I will keep you up to date on anything else I find. Communicating with you about the move or anything else over email works best for me.
My goal is for S12 to have the best teenage years he can. I am asking for your help to do that. Thanks.
I admit, I'm afraid I will not be able to make a life in Florida with my son happen. I have found that negotiating and pointing out truths to XW is not a working strategy. She will say whatever and ignore whatever to get what she wants.
Pointing out what she wrote in April means nothing. Saying nicely that I am just moving on with my life with S12 and I do not want my family broken means nothing.
If I say I'm not paying tuition here or staying in this city, then again I am the evil selfish one who is ruining S12s life. Even though I have been a great dad and have loved my son through all this. I have kept him here more nights and I have paid more money while she threatens me with custody papers and cries every month about how she's afraid I won't pay tuition. (I told her I needed her to stop those tuition emails and she said she would.)
I did talk to a lawyer a couple months ago who told me "you want to move with your son? Just move now and take the issue to court to get your son down."
My dad and brothers say to move and force the issue. XW can't pay this tuition without me. I can homeschool S12.
I told XW that I needed an agreement about Florida before we moved ahead with 6th grade here. Next payment is next month on the 15th.
Part of me just wants to say... "XW, if that is your decision then I do not agree to S12 going to 6th grade here." I know if I don't want to go to court, I shouldn't mention court.
What do you think?
Hi HP, good to hear from you again, and sorry you've been having a rough time. Can I ask you a little more about the Florida move and the impact on your S and his time with you both? What are the custody arrangements now? Who spends what time with S, and how would this change with the move? Also, what's the travelling distance if you move?
My HXW suddenly decided to move 2 hours away from him, which had a big impact on time he spent with S. He was upset about this as he previously spent some week nights with him and this had to stop. So, depending on your answers to the above and the impact on your W's time with S - I can understand how concerned she may be.
I can understand you wanting a fresh start, but I think you'll need to get to a point where you have a clearly defined plan from your negotiations - not a 'gentleman's agreement' and this may or may not be possible, given concerns your W is raising.
Good for you with the healthier lifestyle - you may have had a dip, but it didn't take long for you to pick yourself up again - that's the main thing.
Take care HP x
Hello Sotto. To answer your questions, we informally split custody. Although she suggests an even split schedule at the beginning of every month, S12 spends more nights with me b/c XW either can't keep the schedule due to her work and asks me to keep him, or S12 asks to stay with me instead. He has never asked to stay with her more time than schedule.
We live in the NE USA now, so the move would be a plane trip away. She suggested in detail in April how we could split the time with summers and time off from school. But I would be getting him to school and spending the most time with him. That is fantatic as I work from home and have a very flexible schedule. She relies on this b/c I'm always around to keep S12 when she couldn't this summer.
As to her concerns, since January she knew I wanted to go to Florida. It was in April that my company offered to pay for me to move there and I let her know. She replied detailing the way the move would work in a year instead of the immediate move I proposed. I agreed it was a good plan and agreed not to move immediately so S12 could go to 6th grade here and start 7th grade in Florida. I did not, though, push to have that agreement legal and now she says she is baffled and says I'm leaving S12?
So there was a defined plan, I proposed something and she countered and I said hers was a good plan. I did not get it legal and now here we are.
It seems I have to remind her of things she said. Now she's saying she only implied S12 could go. This is one of the reasons I only speak to her in emails... so I can have a record. I don't know that matters now though.
I would post her letter from last night if it helps explain.
In any case, I have one goal... to get to Florida with my S12 to start a new life. I have been patient with my XW. Even she said so in and email from a couple weeks ago.
But it keeps going back and forth. Now she's says in her email... "HP I hope this makes sense to you and I pray with my soul that you will consider not moving to Florida, that you will stay and be a regular part of S12's life."
She's writing like I'm abandoning my son! I feel like I must remind her that I proposed to leave immediately with him but instead agreed to what she asked for... stay here this year, then move to get settled in Florida before she brought S12 down.
Like I've been told many times here, as reality creeps in XW will lash out and get controlling. She has made promises to me and S12 in moments of crisis only to lash out and break them when reality set in.
The reality is, she will have a hard time with S12 on her own. She works in an office job she said she hates and travels. She has said she is seeing more of OM. S12 says she wants to move from her apartment b/c it's junky (he said he has to take baths sometimes b/c there is no water pressure for showers). She has not helped S12 at all with his Summer school work.
I, on the other hand, would love to take care of S12 on my own. I work from home, live in a beautiful condo and would have a wonderful home in Florida. I would pick him up from school on time everyday and would be able help him with his homework. I would continue to teach him programming and Spanish and make sure he does his music lessons everyday. I have family close in Florida where S12 could stay when needed.
I want to respond today. I'm thinking I send her an email now like... "I got your message and will get back to you." Then later in a more brief way than my last letter attempt state I am moving, remind her of her plan, propose that she send me her specific concerns so I can address them, and let her know that S12 knows the plan.
I am keeping PMA today. Whatever happens.
This is her email announcing she doesn't want me of S12 to go to Florida...
HP,
I have been wanting to write you for weeks now about your decision to relocate to Miami. I understand you will not be able to keep your job unless you move but I am baffled that you would ever consider taking a job that will take you away from S12. I realized that you want to do what's best for your career and clearly be able to provide for him, but I also know that given your skill set you can get a job anywhere in the world really. I know that our problems make it difficult for you to want to stay here. But I implore you to please reconsider your decision to move. I am NOT comfortable In any way shape or form with the thought of S12 living in Florida with you and me not being able to see him. I am sure that the thought of living in Florida and not seeing him everyday is deplorable to you as well... however you still are choosing to move to Florida and leave him here. I know that I have implied that at some point in the future I would consider allowing him to move to Florida. however the more and more I think about it I think that he needs to have both of his parents co-parenting together to raise him. I implore you to reconsider moving to Florida. Perhaps it is something you can do as he gets closer to Upper School. he has a great financial aid package that will take him to the next three years of his education which will be a huge financial savings for us. I think a move at this time for you given the debt that we have would be very unreasonable considering that in Florida he is highly unlikely to get financial aid and it would mean more tuition for us to pay. I know it's your life and I know it's your choice but I would beg you to really reconsider your decision to leave here. I am NOT seeing how a move for S12 even as early as 8 grade is likely given the nature of a our relationship, and our overall financial debt. the thought of not seeing my son or being able to drive to him is absolutely unacceptable to me and therefore I want to make it clear that the thought of him moving to Florida in middle school is not an option.. Therefore the earliest I would even remotely consider it would be for upper school and only if you and I are in a different place in our relationship and can communicate openly and freely and in loving way with S12.
HP I hope this makes sense to you and I pray with my soul that you will consider not moving to Florida, that you will stay and be a regular part of S12 life.
We should talk. Your move has many implications.
Hi HP, I can see your frustration - particularly if she seemed amenable to a move at one point. But I imagine there would be very few mothers who would voluntarily enter an arrangement which means they would be so far from their child and not see them for weeks on end.
What would the legal position be on custody and moving out of state? In my H and his XW's D, either of them must get written permission to take SS out of the country, but we are in the UK.
If that's the case in your position inter-state then I worry that you are pursuing a dream that your W may not ever agree to. It sounds as though her position right now is - if you go - he stays with me - and you can see him at intervals whenever a visit can be planned.
Where will your son end up - legally speaking?
Are their any statements in the divorce agreement about this?
HP, I would get a second opinion from another L. It sounds iffy to me to just move and try to get S later. Part of the reason is that if you leave w/o him, the new status quo will be that he is living with his mother and courts prefer to keep status quo.
What you would have to prove in court, is that it's to S's benefit that he moves with you. It is difficult to defend taking a child away from one parent. You have to prove that it will better his life, and that you have powerful reasons to move, reasons that are more important than seeing his mother frequently. You should also have a plan ready for visits with his mother at your cost.
There are specific criteria a court looks at to deem what is in your son's best interest. You may have a chance if you are the main caretaker and breadwinner, he has stayed more than 50% of the time with you consistently for at least 6 months, and you will loose your job if you don't move. But this is state-specific, so talk to a L who works a lot with custody and moves.
Hello Sotto. I would need, and of course I want, XW's permission to move with S12. She wasn't just amenable... she proposed the plan in April when I asked her about moving to Florida with S12 this summer.
Hello Cadet. What I'm proposing to her is an agreement. We don't have a divorce agreement yet. I told her a couple weeks ago I needed us to legally agree on tuition payments and S12's move to Florida before we move forward. Now we're here.
Hello Painter. I believe the lawyer was saying to take the issue to court now. To not wait and move later so no minds would change. Anyway yes, it seems now I need to get a good lawyer.
yes, it seems now I need to get a good lawyer.
YES - agreed.
It is very typical for them to get more entitled the further this goes down the road.
Unfortunately the legal wranglings can be fuel for their fire, however I think the quicker you can get an agreement the better off you can be.
As I prefer to negotiate this instead of going to court for custody, I'm thinking I will respond to her email with something like...
"XW. In April I told you I was moving to Florida in June and asked for your support getting S12 into school there for 6th grade. You proposed that he and I stay here for another year to transition and that by necessity I would move down first to meet my company's requirements and to get settled. Then you would bring S12 down to a prepared home and he would start 7th grade then with both our support. You said we could make that a legal agreement. I agreed that a transition year would be a good idea, told my company I would move later in the year, and asked (the condo owner) to stay here longer to support your plan.
Now I am asking for your support to keep to that plan. I will send you the cost effective school alternatives and neighborhoods I have found for your consideration. I am considering only the best options for S12. I am also willing to discuss helping you with travel expenses to visit. Your relationship with S12 is important."
Something like that. Stating what I am doing. Not putting her down. Asking for her involvement. Not being a wet noodle. Good enough?
Here is what XW said back in April...
If you are in agreement with the following, perhaps we can make this work for all of us – especially our son. But more than anything, co-parenting requires talking and making joint decisions. If you don’t talk to me, I don’t see how this can ever work – especially long distance. To be honest, that is why I filed for custody in the way I did. I was so frustrated. I want to work with you as we raise our son and you just haven’t wanted to do that. It is ok to not want to talk to me – I get that. But we cannot co-parent and not talk.
If you want to co-parent and raise S12 together, I think we can do it. Here is what I propose:
· Shared custody both primary and legal.
· --S12 finishes 6th grade here and moves to Florida in 7th grade. We can make this a legal agreement HP.
· --For 6th grade, S12 remains here with me for the many reasons i have shared with you. He is not ready to move but I believe we could help him get ready if we do this in a slow and well thought out way. This will also give me time to look for work in the area and make a move there if I can find a job. Like you, I don’t want to be part time parent and not see my son often. If in the short term moving with you and finishing school there is best for him, I want to make that happen. But not so fast and definitely not without taking the time to find the best school for him.
HP,
Forget doing this DIY on this complex matter. I'd consult with a L and be sure all i's are dotted and t's crossed. This isn't something that XW will agree. You NEED to do what's best for you and S12.
Get all the divorce agreement finalized and MOVE to Florida with S12.
It's said that we move about 7 times in our lifetime.
Hello again Wonka. Thank you so much for the insight. I keep meaning to write posts about what it means to have been able to move away from XW while still DBing. At first I was so happy about the possibility to live with her for 6 months while we figured this out but thanks to your advice I was spared that. I am much happier thanks to your advice.
As for now, don't you think I should at least reply with my proposal first and reassure her that I want to work together and I'm not trying to take S12? I have done a great job apparently of acting "as if." She has mentioned in some emails she believes I want a divorce and only seems to react positively when I turn around and I acknowledge her concerns. I know I have to at least acknowledge her fears about this.
Either way, I want to make this agreement with a lawyer's help. I don't know how to get an agreement finalized and move with S12 like you say if now she is so against this.
I do have a call in to a recommended lawyer and will confer ASAP. For now, can't I say (again) I agree with her plan, want to work with her, and I am moving on?
The other thing is, S12 is on board with the move. He knows what I am doing and that I am making it the best experience I can for us. XW does not know that. Shouldn't I tell her that?
HP,
I've got to run out the door now and will be gone for the rest of the day. Will return later on tonight for some ideas.
I am sure others will chime in here.
Hello Cadet. Yes, the entitlement attitude is very hard to deal with.
She writes asking me "from her soul" to reconsider moving to a place where S12 and I have family and friends. Says now she only implied S12 can move with me. Tries to tell me how to act and how to feel. Says she can't believe I'm leaving S12.
I should know that the irony of someone who has behaved as she has saying such things is lost on her. This is standard for WAW I know.
Even so, I am keeping PMA today. Still eating right. Coaching S12 through his guitar lessons.
But it is taking effort.
Life is interesting. The day I get my feet under me and restart my journey forward, I get XW saying she wants me and S12 to stay here. I also got a mysterious email from the director of my work to call him. For a few minutes, I was afraid I was fired.
Now today... a bunch of people I work with got laid off including the person I reported to. The director of our group called me personally to tell me I'm OK and I'm getting more freedom to do my work. And I see now that I'll have to fight XW to have the life I want with my S12.
This happens everyday... my situation is not different from others and others survive and even thrive. I do still believe this is all working towards a great something. So many good things have happened since BD.
Now I'm texting with my former co-workers. This is awful for them. It seems I was told I was OK before they all got their walking papers. Almost the entire team is gone.
I'm still here. Still working.
Onward.
HP,
As a mother, there is something about your situation that troubles me. It seems like you are having trouble understanding that your stbx doesn't want her son to be so far away, or that she changed her mind on such a critical decision .
Regardless of what your son says (and I would really question letting him be the decider at this age), I think it's important, if at all possible, for both parents to be physically present in their children's lives. I say this as a 6th grade teacher who has seen many of my students struggle with their parents' divorces and being shuttled to different homes.
I know this is not the prevailing sentiment on this thread but I wanted to offer a different perspective.
I hope you can both work it out in a way that feels ok to all.
HP,
What does "from her soul" really mean? She has made some serious judgement errors (putting it lightly). I do not think requests that are coming "from her soul" are more valid than any other requests. Just another figure of speech. Bottom line - she is acting on emotion, like all WAWs.
In reading your recent posts - they are awesome, BTW - I think you have been great at introspection. A real strength. I know that you had a vision in your mind about how it would go: you in Fla for 6th grade and S12 joining you for 7th. It was so perfect, crisp and tidy. Now W is changing her mind. Now is the time to really look inside yourself and reevaluate what is best for you and S12 in light of the fact that the sitch has evolved because your W has changed her mind. This has to (unfortunately) be taken into consideration. no?
RAI
I agree with Claire. I'm guessing you W was in a totally different place emotionally in April than she is now. There is no way in hell I would let my kids move out of state and not be involved in their everyday lives.
And I see now that I'll have to fight XW to have the life I want with my S12.
Sorry, but it's not just about you. I'm sure your son wants to move to FL, it sounds exciting...jet skiing and kite surfing. But I don't see how taking him that far away from his mom, unless she is an addict and/or abusive, is best for him. That's the Mom in me coming out.
Hi. Two points if I may. You mentioned W wants to talk , did you explore this to see what's on her mind Ive followed your posts and while I completly agree you shouldn't be in R talks with W while OM is about , I would like to know what she's thinking
On the moving S to FL , how far is that for W to travel ? I agree it's sounding like a great life for S but I would have thought having his mum in his life as much as possible is best
Just my thoughts. Take care. Rd
Claire I'm so glad you posted that. The mama bear in me has been coming out as well. I would never allow my D12 to move to a different state than me.
HP, not taking sides here. But I really get where your W is coming from.
Just took some time to read threads and came across Sandi's latest LBH thread. It was a great reminder of all the lessons all of you kindly pounded into my head over my first few months here.
Basically, I have to keep moving in the best direction for me.
Something interesting I read there... getting to the point where the former LBH becomes the WAS. I remember one of my threads a few months ago where the joke was I was more WAS than LBH.
Now yes I am officially a WAS. STBX says that she feels I want a D and is asking me to reconsider my move to Florida. While none of my actions are tactical anymore, it seems I have that "as if moving on" moving well.
This is a natural extension of that. My work offers to pay for me to move to a place where I have friends and family. I great place to live with great schools. It's what I want.
Even so claire and RAI... As you know I don't want D or S for my family. Even now I would prefer my family to be together and would be willing to work with someone serious about working with me.
But I want to be in Florida. STBX has known this for years. I know now it is not possible to rely on what she said in April but she laid out a plan for that to happen. I agreed to the plan. She even suggested she would look for a job there.
Now she's acting like that didn't happen.
I know that's typical and "don't believe what they say." But this can happen as she says and be a good thing for all of us. I don't want S12 to be away from his mom but at the same time I have an opportunity to have the life I want. More sun... more travel... less taxes... a job working from home... S12 having is cousins to play with in a yard. All great things.
So yes I'd like to reach out to her, remind her of HER proposal, say I want to work with her to make it work, and then make it work.
I have an appointment with a lawyer now on Tuesday. $200 just to confer with him for an hour. I don't want to do that.
What can I say now better than this?... "I understand what you're saying STBX. I am moving to Florida. Let me know your specific concerns with S12 starting 7th grade there. I want to work with you to address all of them."
Hello lost18, rd500, and SunnyB. I told STBX from the beginning I don't want her to be away from S12. If you read her proposal about how I could move to Florida, she mentioned looking for a job there herself. If that is not what she wants anymore, I would be willing to help pay for her visits.
So yes I can propose all these things to STBX and try to find a compromise (again).
Or I can take my case to the court and risk not winning.
Or I can just move and explain it the best I can to S12.
STBX would not be able to take care of S12 as she would like without me and my paycheck and my flexible schedule to support her.
Then there is the $1.2K I pay every month for tuition. More than I understand the court would give her for child support. Am I just to keep paying that when I would rather send him to another school?
Wouldn't I be backsliding by caving to this latest guilt trip letter?
And shouldn't I call her saying I'm leaving S12?
When STBX asked me to leave the house I was devastated. My M was over. My life as I knew it was no more.
She proposed I visit the kids every other weekend and one night a week. At that moment I was under extreme emotional duress. I had a full time job and had to keep working. I didn't have a place to have time with the children. I didn't know if I'd be able to manage having the children more than that anyway as I'd been a distant father compared to the man I was now. I agreed to that schedule for the time being, and may have even implied that would be ok with me.
Since then I've gotten my own place. I'm in a healthier place emotionally. And I am a great father. Most importantly, the children NEED me. They are blossoming around me, I can actually see them bloom while we engage together. They need their mom too, but we bring different things and I am so grateful I have this time with them and they are getting what they do need from me. It is making them healthier and happier children.
Now we are in mediation, and may go to court. I am not going to accept less than 50% parental time, even if that means we go to 6/14 nights for a year and then 7/14 going forward when the youngest is in school. STBX doesn't like that it's "disrupting their schedule during the school year". She disrupted it by asking for a divorce. She has already hurt my children enough by modeling the behavior of walking out on a marriage, she isn't going to hurt them more by depriving them of their dad. There is a chance that we can work this out L to L, but if not I am prepared to go 12 rounds in the courts if I need to.
This is regardless of what we discussed the first few months after BD.
A parent should ALWAYS have access to their children if they want it. I don't care what she said. I don't care if she changed her mind. I don't even care if she's doing this to control/manipulate you. She's being available as a mother to your child. There is absolutely nothing in FL, money, sun, alligators, NOTHING, that can replace the loss your child will incur if you try to deprive your child of their mother.
Personally I don't think the courts would even consider that request with a mother that wanted to stay involved. A 6 month old email exchange is not a binding contract, not enough for the courts to rule against a mother and child having a relationship. I'm no L, that just seems obvious.
I think you got way too carried away with this, I think you jumped the gun on the move, and I think you're making a terrible mistake to even try to fight this one. Not only won't you get what you want, you'll be setting the stage for a severely adversarial coparenting relationship, and your child will eventually learn of your attempt to take their mother away (which is how they'll see it).
PS- I love FL too. Alligators and SunnyB. If I didn't have family here I'd be halfway through Georgia by now...
Well said Zues!
By the way, it's not about you backsliding or caving to her manipulations...it's about S12.
I am not a lawyer, nor do I know the laws of your state but I don't think you would win taking him out of state, most D's that I've heard of you have to stay within so many miles. I'm just guessing tuition would be separate from child support and of course public school is always an option.
Good luck.
Hello lost18 and Zeus126. In this state, I understand I would at least have to submit to the court for permission to take S12 to live out of the state. I would have to provide where we're moving, school district, why we're moving, family and support system there, etc. The other party would then have 60 days( I think) to accept of reject that. If it is reject, then the case goes to court.
My court submission among other things would say... I'm moving for my job... I have family in the area... his cousins go to a school where his aunt is on the faculty... we'd be moving to family centered school district... I would help pay for STBX's visits as much as possible... etc.
Zues, your point is good. In my case, though, my STBX was many months into our sitch. She suggested even before I moved out of the house with S12 that she would allow S12 to live with me in Florida if she could visit him often. I will help her with that.
I have reminded her this whole year that I am moving to Florida. Took S12 to Florida over sprig break to look around and see what it would be like. She even called the school in Florida to find out what it would take for S12 to go there. It was then that she proposed the move for 7th grade option.
Plus, I understand how a mama bear would not let her cub go out of state. But note STBX in her email says she would consider delaying the move to 8th grade on condition that I talk with her and have a better relationship with her. She is just delaying it... again throwing me a crumb as is her pattern. And again with the "talk with me and co-parent" words when I have told her repeatedly that I am available over email, have agreed to all her schedules, have helped her by keeping S12 when he can't, have helped her with money for cars and storage and health insurance, have taken S12 for is haircuts and bought him new clothes and kept up with his lessons and more all without her prompting or help.
This is someone who skipped Christmas with S12 and was the one talking about her dream of us living in separate cities and sharing S12 on the holidays while she was gaslighting me.
So, yes I'm feeling frustrated now and a little angry that she would ask me to reconsider a move to Florida after all that. Doubly that she would say I'm leaving S12 and that she can't believe it when this is a result of the proposal SHE MADE and I accepted.
But your right that means nothing and I am venting.
I still have not replied to her accusing me of leaving my son. Now I don't know what to say.
Worse than that... I see now her proposal in April was just another crumb to get me not to move with S12 last June. Now that we are near fall and I have to arrange for school in Florida and the moving momentum increases b/c I asked for the legal agreement THAT SHE OFFERED, she throws me another crumb about "maybe 8th grade" and tries to shame me as someone who would leave his son.
This is what I'm dealing with. Yes I messed up by not just getting the legal agreement the moment she mentioned it.
I make this difficult time in her life easier by being so flexible and agreeable with my time. She simply gives me more days that she scheduled whenever something comes up for her or when S12 asks. Then she'll just come to visit him for lunch.
She knows I would spend everyday with S12 and takes advantage of that so she can do as she likes while still acting like a great mom for her friends.
I one of her latest emails she said I had the audacity to say I wanted an agreement about moving to Florida before moving ahead with 6th grade tuition. If I dare to say what I want in life, I'm audacious. If I leave town for a few days without explanation, I'd be wrong if it interrupted her plans.
It's not about S12 living away from her b/c with every crumb she offers that. It is about her convenience and people's perception of her.
Wow ranting again. Have not done this in a while.
Am I wrong to want to move on with my life in a place I want to be while offering to help STBX see S12 as much as possible?
Would I be wrong to go to court for that? Even if S12 knows that I want his mom to be with him in Florida?
HP, it very well may be that W was just playing you saying she would allow the move in April, and if you had pressed for a legal agreement then you wouldn't have actually gotten it. So don't beat yourself up over that any more.
What we momma bears are reacting to is the idea that you'd take S to FL and leave mom behind, just because she said that might work a few months ago. Just because you feel like it. BUT, and this is huge for me, if W said she'd move to FL and get a job there, well, then, in my opinion, that takes care of it. She has the opportunity to see him as much as she wants. If she moves.
So, for me, it all boils down to, is the plan for you to take S to FL and leave W behind, or is the plan for W to move down as well. To me, that's a critical difference. After all, a court can't force her to move, and a court can't prevent you from moving, but they can determine where S lives. And that would be a shame, in my opinion. It's his parents job to look out for his well being, M or not.
HP,
You've received a ton of advice, guidance, tips, and helpful information here.
My suggestion is to step back from this for a while. I would want to confer with the L and really tell her/him what you just said to us here. Ask for legal advice from the L and it also wouldn't hurt to seek a child psychologist for input as well.
For now, I would not respond to W's email. You need to gather some more information before you make any concrete decisions. A few more days would not hurt at all.
I get that you don't want to miss this great opportunity to chart a new life for yourself and S12. My mother moved several states away when we all were very young and we weren't 'damaged' as we were allowed to visit our relatives and father. Yeah, we all dealt with it when the move took place. This isn't the first nor the last time that a divorced parent moved several hours or states away with the child/children.
The MAIN thing is that the children be allowed to have a R with the other parent through phone calls, letters/cards, and holidays/trips.
Let me be the one to remind everyone that she has been a crappy mom. HP I hope that doesn't hurt your feelings but come on. These are some of the consequences of divorce. Why should she be coddled. It's not as if he is doing this out of spite. This was a plan for a long time. She has decided to remove herself from the family by cheating. Come on people, is it because she's a mother? He's taking a brave step in moving forward in his life and she's pulling the "but I'm his Mom" card. Guess what, he's his Dad and he is showing more moral character than she has. Just my two cents.
Let the verbal onslaught begin.
Bravo,
cheater or not, she is still a mother. Don't you go messin' with mother's feeling towards her child, that is just not right on so many levels...
bravo61
"She has decided to remove herself from the family by cheating. "
No. She decided to remove herself from HP. Not her son.
When you first came here you said you had alot of anger issues to work on. From reading many of your posts, it seems like you have a long way to go.
I think we all agree with slowing down, not responding, getting some legal and counseling advice.
HP, I can understand how galling it can be that a woman that left you can still, through your child together, manipulate the options on how you can live your life. And in this case it can feel like being jerked around on a leash.
Trust me, I get it. D is horrible and violating on so many levels.
I've thought about what the worst betrayal would be. Have you seen those movies where a guy is doing something illegal to make really big money (like the guy in Blow, or some Mob movie)? You know, the guy is making bank, he is wining and dining his woman. Then the moment he's in any trouble she turns on him, maybe even calls the police and turns him in, and laughs as he gets hauled to jail. She keeps his kids from visiting and vindictively taunts him about how she's got a new man now and they're better off without a loser like him...
To me that would be the bottom of the bottom. Locked up. Woman turning on you and remarrying. Keeping the kids from you. And skewing their reality so they are mad at you for leaving them and hurting their mom. Meanwhile you're doing laundry and fighting off guys with broomhandles.
But I've realized- if that is what happens, that is what happens. Whatever will be, will be. If God wants me in a prison, then I will try to find appreciation for the life he has given me regardless. It's called unconditional love. I love God and my life unconditionally. If I need STBX, or certain things in my life to be able to be grateful, then I will be miserable, because that's not how it works.
Point is once I was able to accept the thought of my 'worst case scenario' the idea of STBX jerking me around a bit didn't bother me as much.
She can't control you. She can only influence your external life. You are not your external life. You are the person inside that decides how to process all of it. So you are a free bird my friend. Glad you ranted. It's honest. Now work through some of that and be the free bird you want to be!
Hey Zues, sounds like "the work" by Byron Katie. Well said.
HP, it really [censored] that someone who has made (is making) such bad choices has an equal say in raising S12, and I totally get it. I am stuck in my current town even though I wish I could just move away - and I have offers everywhere. I think we all just have to have faith that everything is happening the way it is for a reason and believe that good will come even from the most infuriating things. We are in the middle of the story, and we don't know how it ends. I am sorry you are stuggling with this. Good luck with whatever you decide.
I just wanted to chime in and join in the chorus of those who are saying you should sleep on things for a bit.
RAI
Good morning SunnyB, Wonka, bravo61, Vapo, MrBond, and Zues126. I really appreciate your advice, encouragement, and 2x4s. I feel after all the great feedback that I have a way forward.
First, "doing what works" for me right now is ensuring I can peacefully take steps towards my goals everyday. I have specific emotional (confident happiness), parental (teach S12 to happily build whatever life he wants), lifestyle (living in my own home in Fl with S12), financial (make at least $1k a day with my business), career (honorably resign from my job eventually), and fitness (get back down to 190lbs at <15% body fat) goals.
The peaceful part of that is important. So I do not reach out to STBX, I do not see her, do not respond to her tirades, and I am simple and direct about anything I need from her (which up to now was very little).
One thing I have not done consistently is simply acknowledging her with a return email in a timely way when appropriate. So many of her emails (the only way I left for her to contact me) I find inappropriate and repetitive, so I delay even looking at them all and then take my time to respond simply b/c I'd rather think of and work on other things.
(What I did do, a few weeks ago, was send her an email calling out some of her recent unacceptable behavior and listing how I won't respond to them after she accused me of not responding to her. I said "I will not respond to your panic" among other things. The email worked for me b/c it shut down her thrashing and at me. Instead of worrying if I'm antagonizing her... I just state facts. In the process, she basically admitted she sends inflammatory emails and threats simply b/c I don't respond.)
One thing I see she has found out is if she can do something to me, then I have to respond. So she will threaten to take me to court for custody b/c she says she's afraid I'm not going to pay tuition and set a date. I respond reminding her I paid over $10k in tuition so far this year, and I paid for her rental cars, and storage for all our stuff, and life insurance for months, and she owes me almost $1.3k, etc. Then she thanks me, apologizes, and cancels the court date. I've allowed this to become a cycle. This is why I want legal agreements to end it.
All that to say, now I'm adding to my arsenal I simple reply to appropriate emails... "STBX. I'll get back to you on this ASAP." Simple courtesy.
This was suggested to me a while back but I never did it. Now I will to give her some acknowledgment while giving me time to respond in a way that works.
So I did this last night in response to her "I can't believe you're moving" email.
I got this quick response...
"Sure. I hope you're well. I I have been feeling so bad lately about so many things. Im really worried about how all of this is impacting S12 and the thought of you leaving really makes me feel such a sense of despair. I worry a great deal about it. at any rate I know you have to do what's best for you but I just really wish you could delay your move."
Which is about what I expected from experience. Some relief that I responded and an expression of her feelings about how terrible things are. Does this every time.
So, on Sunday I will send her an email. I will acknowledge her feelings of despair and worry, tell her of course I know how S12 must have us both in his life, say I want to work with her on this and I think it can work (repeating her words from her proposal), remind her I am moving to build a life for me AND S12, give her details about where I'm moving and that the location is about S12 (other kids, school, security, fun, etc.), and make a proposal which is basically her proposal plus my offer to pay for 70% of travel expenses to visit S12 as much as possible. I'll say we could set a travel schedule and I would look out for deals and purchase tickets in advance to make it as easy as possible on her. I will also ask her to let me know her concerns b/c I want to address all of them. I will tell her that her comfort with everything is important. I'll offer to pay 70% for the lawyer to make the agreement legal. I'll offer to go with S12 to sessions with the IC about the move.
I'll post that email when I come up with it.
I'll still see the lawyer. Still get my options.
B/c I agree with all... S12 needs his mom and if she's changed to where she is now in despair about seeing him and/or me move... well that's good.
If I can move with S12 and make sure she feels like she has all the access she wants to S12 and S12 is happy... that's fantastic for all of us.
If it's possible, I have to ask to find out and then work my ass off to make it happen.
I can do that.
Onward.
HP,
All that to say, now I'm adding to my arsenal I simple reply to appropriate emails... "STBX. I'll get back to you on this ASAP." Simple courtesy.
This was suggested to me a while back but I never did it. Now I will to give her some acknowledgment while giving me time to respond in a way that works.
So I did this last night in response to her "I can't believe you're moving" email.
Good job with this brief response acknowledging her email.
So, on Sunday I will send her an email. I will acknowledge her feelings of despair and worry, tell her of course I know how S12 must have us both in his life, say I want to work with her on this and I think it can work (repeating her words from her proposal), remind her I am moving to build a life for me AND S12, give her details about where I'm moving and that the location is about S12 (other kids, school, security, fun, etc.), and make a proposal which is basically her proposal plus my offer to pay for 70% of travel expenses to visit S12 as much as possible. I'll say we could set a travel schedule and I would look out for deals and purchase tickets in advance to make it as easy as possible on her. I will also ask her to let me know her concerns b/c I want to address all of them. I will tell her that her comfort with everything is important. I'll offer to pay 70% for the lawyer to make the agreement legal. I'll offer to go with S12 to sessions with the IC about the move.
I wouldn't send out that email at all. I would suggest that you wait until after the L and the child psychologist consultation. W can wait a few more days. It is critically important that you gather as much information and guidance as you can BEFORE you email W.
I hope you're active in reaching out to some child psychologists now that you've booked the L session for this Tuesday.
Your W is spinning and her guilt is eating at her. It is her problem, not yours. Don't be reactive to W. You've got this with being Joe Cool.
I rarely ever come by newcomers anymore. Somme strange force attracted me to this thread.
I have been going through this for 8 years. My ex left me for OW when my daughter was 6 months old. He is an every other weekend, one night a week dad, not really involved in her actual raising, but he's there and she loves him, nonetheless. He is remarried to OW also, for 4 years now.
He has been by no means a stellar father. I mean, he had an affair when his wife (me) was pregnant and left me for her when our daughter was an infant. I wanted to love out of our money sucking state when all this happened. We had ot short sale on our home, rentals are expensive being close to NYC, and I didn't have a whole lot of help here, just like I wouldn't have had anywhere else. I was an ICU nurse at the time and TX was offering us LOTS of money to move and work there. A bunch of coworkers did this. My ex said he would have given me permission if he could have her a few weeks in the summer. I just couldn't do it. I wanted my D to have a relationship with her father.
In my state the other parent has to sign off. And to rule regarding being a "crappy mother" well,crappy has to be pretty much abusive and neglectful. Extramarital choices are rarely ever taken into consideration. I know YOU want to go FL. But what about S12? Does he really understand the extent at which he will be away from his mother? Is he really OK with that? Does he really truly understand what that means? Florida witht he cousins sounds exciting, but I think he may not be putting together that means he can't see his mother on a regular basis.
This will go to trial if she doesn't agree. And he will probably have to undergo some rough questioning, meetings with child psychologists, so on and so forth.
I can understand going through all if HIS situation with his mother really is that awful and detrimental. But it doesn't sound like it is. She has made poor choices with the marriage with in turn, does affect him. Just as my ex did. And even does to this day. But I weight the crappy situations and I know my daughter is better off having her father accessible to her rather than us starting over somewhere cheaper and sunnier.
It really does stink, having to kind of build your life around the situation you chose not to be in. Believe me, I get it. A big portion of my life has to be worked around my ex and his AP/OW for my daughter's sake. But hey, we do what we gotta do, no matter how unfair it is.
I just urge you to think this all through. And not to make any decisions that come from a place of your ex not "deserving" to getting to keep her son close to her where you all currently live. Because oh man, if I went by what my ex doesn't deserve rather than by what my daughter does, life would be much much different.
Ginger, this is gold^^^^^.
He is an every other weekend, one night a week dad, not really involved in her actual raising, but he's there and she loves him, nonetheless.
Sorry to hijack and missing the main point here, but I had to speak my voice.
I am a "one night a week/every other weekend" dad. The reason for this is that I am the only income earner. My WAW was a SAHM for 10 years. That was her dream, so I worked my tail off to provide. Now she has evicted me from the old home, yet hasn't gone back to work in a year. To continue to ensure my children have food to eat I continue to work my tail off. There was simply no way for me to have my kids more than this immediately after BD. In fact, I didn't even have a place to HAVE my children for the first 4 months as I stayed in a basement with friends. Now I am working hard with my attorney to get to 6 days/14, and eventually 7. But it is hard, because each step requires me to seriously change my work schedule and handle more than ever before, on top of doing everything that my SAHM wife used to do.
I am doing it, but it is slow, courts are slow, L's are slow.
POINT IS- for the last 8 months this is the time I've had with my children, and I don't agree that I haven't been involved with their raising.
I am teaching my son to shave this weekend
I am the one that takes them to church
I am the one that is helping my son through his pain, doing some joint journaling exercises
I am the one trying to encourage them to read instead of watch TV by reading them books- real books. Currently on "Blubber" so we can discuss bullying in school.
Of course I could go on.
I see my children absolutely BLOOM when they are with me. I bring out things in them their mom doesn't.
I'm sure STBX thinks I'm the "fun dad" and that she's raising them, and that I'm just another friend she's letting them play with because she knows it's 'good for them'. That's fine. I know the truth.
She is equally important, and brings her own gifts, and yes, she has historically done most of the parenting and does quite a bit of the routine things.
I just couldn't sit back and indirectly be called an uninvolved dad.
Now- I know this wasn't your point, and you were definitely not aiming this at me, so I'm not tweaked or anything. Just speaking up for the dads doing everything they can. Thanks!
Zeus, definitely not aimed at you. Or people or are one night a week or every other weekend dad's.
I was the main money earner. I still make more money. Actually our deal was I would work per diem, and I was a SAHM during the week and worked the weekends and brought home more money. I flipped my lcareer a bunch of times to accommodate our daughter.
It's his choice to be what he is. And when I say he is a one. Isn't a week every other weekend dad, that is not the issue. He chooses not to be involved in her actual raising. He likes the fun times, He has no clue of what she is doing in school, or how she is doing, ect. On the half a night a week he has her requests her homework be done, her be showered, ect. He doesn't get her involved in activities, or his interests.
He was picking her up directly from school one day and the school called me to make sure it was ok, even though he was on the list because the front office and teachers knew I was involved but never ever heard from him or saw him regarding anything.
It's not quantity of time, it's quality of time. And it sounds like your time is quality. And I wish, as my daughter wishes, my ex would have his small quantity be of quality.
You may not be uninvolved, but my ex kind of is uninvolved. I never said nor have I implied that dad's who have the amount of time my ex does are uninvolved. My ex tried to give up his week day when I changed jobs from the one I passionately loved to that of one with hours which worked for my daughter. He figured I wasn't working shift work anymore so he didn't have to deal with the work it takes in that one night of the week and he could only be an every other weekend dad. I wouldn't let him for our daughters sake. She'd miss her dad too much.
I could only wish my ex had the passion and desire to raise his daughter as you do. He simply likes his life as is. So please don't take what I said as dad's who have less time as it not being quality. Every situation is different.
Wow Bond. Who's mindreading now.
I'm not mad at all just confused why people seem to be jumping to her defense. The family was comprised of the three of them. She has continually (according to the posts) willingly given up time with her S. She even agreed that S should move with HP.
Thanks Ginger. I felt this was what you were saying, it's just a sore spot. I feel I made huge sacrifices to work a crazy stressful job and not spend all day with my kids because my STBX really wanted to...and she is super tight with all the teachers for all the grades, walks kids to school with other moms, knows all the neighbors, shoot, she's Mrs. Popular and everyone talks about how great of a mom she is and applauds her for being a heroic single mom...yet she's a single mom that is playing possum to look as helpless as possible to the courts to try to get as much money as me and the government programs as she can, the single mom that chose to be single, even breaking up her family. And I do have room to grow as a dad, but now it just is a lot tougher when I'm across town during half their lives. Yes, it burns me up. I am still angry about the D. Not constantly. Just when I hit these sore points. Thank you for letting me rant.
Ginger
Your ex is an idiot - and I never met him, but you know I can speak from personal experience.
He will wake up some day and probably do something horrible when he realizes what he has lost, then again he might
stay in a fog the rest of his life.
You are a great MOM and someone is going to figure out what a catch you are!
Thanks for participating here!
HP - You posted on one of my early threads. I just read through this thread... I'm glad your posting again.
I'm not going to fall in line with most of the group. So this may prompt so good discussion.
In reading I could see a couple things that stand out. 1 - you are uber focused on your goals and plan. I love goals and plans! But life is what happens between them. Don't be so rigid.
“Be like water making its way through cracks. Do not be assertive, but adjust to the object, and you shall find a way around or through it. If nothing within you stays rigid, outward things will disclose themselves.
Empty your mind, be formless. Shapeless, like water. If you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle and it becomes the bottle. You put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now, water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.”
― Bruce Lee
Second, your W came to you, approached you with a fairly strong email baring her soul. Did it cover all the bases from DB perspective... No. It contained guilt but not remorse. But since when can one email accurately depict a persons mental state perfectly in 100 words. It seems as if the closer she comes the further you run.
You mentioned that you are open to reconciliation. Is it something you want? Surely going to FL will not get you that and you will spend thousands fighting her (IMHO it was ignorant to think that a mother was going to let you take her kid to another state. You should have realized how bad that would be regardless of what she said).
I believe in a way anger is driving you away from her. Which is understandable. my point is... If you want reconciliation (which I am sure is what your son wants and what is best for him, assuming reconciliation is possible), then test her instead of maintaining distant...
"X - Reconciliation is best for our family, but will require significant effort and growth as individuals and as a couple. My condition for this is the same, no OM. What do you want to do?"
WONKA, soory to hijack - but you can take a look see at Lost08's thread. He H is giving her the touchy feely mixed messages that Smothy's was and your early intervention may be useful. Thanks, Py
HPoirot, you're back! You disappeared so suddenly this winter, you had me worried... and very curious. I'm glad you're here. I just read this entire thread. Sometimes this kind of catching up is fun because you quickly get the resolution of the cliffhangers!
My IC told me early on that a separation is often the continuation of the relationship. I suspect this is what is happening between you and your WW. That the current dynamic where you dig your heels in anger and she overreacts is similar to what you had as a couple.
Both of you want to talk. Why is it not happening? You are both playing games now, guessing what the other really means, speaking in silences. Much like mahhhty, I wonder if you still want to reconcile. You say so, but I don't see much of it. I don't even see it in your goals. You seem to expect that she will change because you ignore her, that you follow your goals. I really like Starsky309's advice in general, but I admit here that he places the bar very high for your WW to clear before you can engage her. Maybe it's just me getting rusty at DBing.
Hello everyone. Thank you for posting the interesting mini discussion here about being a part time but all that you can dad. I believe I have been all that I can be... but, in my case, it doesn't matter with STBX. It goes back and forth here... one moment she says I'm a great dad and have been generous and patient with her. Others I'm a non-communicative ass who needs the courts to take care of me.
I'm sick of it.
There are a lot of posts and questions here I've been intending to reply to. I am very sorry I have not yet.
Thing is, since I started this thread with her asking to talk about us... I've been feeling somewhat down again. Not feeling like writing these posts. No where near where I was at the start of this... but still.
As an update... I postponed my meeting with the lawyer. I could not afford $200 for an hour with him right now. I rescheduled for after September 7th.
In the meantime, I've been working on being more productive and happy in the face of my feelings. That has been going OK.
As for STBX... last night she sent me and email... "We desperately need to talk. Let me know when we can meet."
This after I have told her repeatedly I would discuss anything S12 with her over email.
I shouldn't be moved by things like this but I was a little and paid for it.
I replied "How can I help you STBX?" I actually thought about the response trying to be friendly. I thought it might be nice to talk. I allowed myself to think about an outcome.
Reply... "If you have to ask, I guess we still need that court date. You said you would get back to me ASAP about your move. Oh well."
Something like that.
I did not bite... "STBX. Yes, this is important. I will get back to you ASAP."
I'm tired. Sick and tired.
I realize I made a mistake believing she would not change her mind about S12 moving with me to Florida for 7th grade. I should have got the agreement she proposed legal right then.
Thing is... if I don't move... I may lose my job (they just fired most of my team) and have to take a job where I don't get paid as much and do not have the flexibility for S12 of working from home like I do now.
So, I'm just going to make my case to her... let her know all about my job status... re-propose her proposal... and say I'll pay part of her travel to FL for visits, visit S12 here once a month until he moves, and pay for the lawyer to make the agreement legal.
If she can't do that, I file with the lawyer for custody and to have S12 move with me. That and I stop paying for the private school here if the lawyer says that is a good idea. I'll homeschool S12 if it comes to that.
I'm sick of being threatened with court by this person if I don't answer an email on her schedule.
To answer question... yes I am open to R... but not at any cost. My priority are the goals for me and S12 like the move. I'm at the point now where I have to set up possible Florida schools for S12 and find a place to live b/c I can't stay in this condo past December.
I'm going to send her the email explaining the situation by Monday. If she doesn't agree to basically her own proposal... lawyers will have to figure it out.
Am I wrong?
Forgot to say... Mozza... about the high bar for her to engage me...
I made clear in January that, under current conditions, I would engage her only about S12 and only over email. She has been testing me on that constantly since then.
At the beginning of this thread, when she asked if I would be willing to talk about us, I said yes I would be willing. Just not while she was in contact with OM.
That is more than reasonable. If she really wanted to talk... that is a low bar to hurdle. Her decision told me all I needed to know.
I would say I'm not digging in heels angry. I'm just keeping my word and respecting myself. It's clear and consistent.... no R talks with someone who is not really there with me. No convincing or pleading or name calling(like she still does... this time about me not moving and saying I'm not wanting to be a consistent part of S12's life by doing so).
If someone has a better way for me to do this... please I want to know. Her letter baring her soul about talking about us sounded like more "why can't you just do what I want you to do" which she immediately took back when I tested her. When I tested her on her proposal to make the move to Florida with S12 agreement legal... she immediately took it back.
I was warned of this type of behavior when I first got here and still I didn't say "I'm not going to be manipulated anymore" and go to a lawyer.
So now I'm going to a lawyer.
What else can I do?
HP
Your s12 comes first.
Gently, you know I think of you as one of the best dads I know.
No more engaging with WW.
The very best for your S is you. I can't forget the cruddy share of WW and S with a crying new born. How distressed your S was.
No paying for school, home school.
Go, achieve your new dream
V
V, you know I adore you but I have to respectfully disagree with the homeschooling part. I think a thoughtfully-planned homeschool program is one of the best educations a child can have, BUT....don't you think S has lost enough here? He's lost his family, his mom is not acting like she should, he doesn't see dad full-time. So now he gets pulled out of school, away from his friends, away from any teachers he might admire? Not my vote.
I haven't posted in a long time, and I don't remember your earlier threads so my advice may be off-base.
My guess, based solely on what I've read in this thread, is that your W is probably genuinely interested in reconciliation. But, just as you want to see changes from her, she wants to see changes from you too. Back in April, she agreed to let S12 move to Florida because she thought that it would soften your heart toward her (see, WAH? I'm willing to make sacrifices for you) and eventually lead to a reconciliation. (What's the word for that? Implicit contract?) When you didn't do whatever it was that she was looking for, she started to doubt her decision to let S12 move. She continued to stew over it for months. Finally, in July she reached out and tried to engage you in a conversation about your relationship, which is what she wanted all along. But, your response didn't tick all the right boxes for her, so she decided to use the only power she has to draw you into the conversation -- her agreement (or not) to allow S12 to move with you to Florida. I'd be willing to bet that this really isn't about S12 at all but about her own feelings of being abandoned. But because you won't engage her in that discussion*, she has to make it about S12, because that is the only area where you can't avoid engagement.
(I may or may not have done the exact same thing with my WAH over the past few months about selling a piece of property we own.)
*I know you told her you would talk if she stopped contact with OM, but in her mind that's quite a risk to take when you are dead-set on moving to Florida and not really engaging her at an emotional level. Note, I'm not defending her, just explaining why she might not have dumped the OM as soon as she got your terse email response.
What's the reasoning behind the email-only boundary? I don't think it's reasonable to expect that co-parenting can be accomplished via email only, except in the most extreme of situations. It would frustrate me beyond belief to not be able to call up my (hypothetical) XH and talk about our D8.
Please start a new thread. You have 103 postings/replies.