For continuity sake, here is Georgia Bulldog's post with my and Caliguy's response below...
"I still think you have missed and keep missing opportunities and it's frustrating to me to watch you miss this under the banner of detaching.
Detaching, to me, means this "spew" won't/shouldn't really bother you anymore, not that you give her the silent treatment when she starts talking about your relationship. Your wife has months and months of rationalizations and justifications built up in her mind that she needs to work through before she can get to a place of being ready to accept responsibility for her choices. So what if she blames you and etc, etc, etc. Her words are only expressing her illogical "feelings" on the subject because taking full responsibility is just too hard to do at this moment. You are a logical thinker. She isn't. All you have to do is listen. You will get a lot of credit LATER for just listening to her say whatever mean thing she chooses to discuss with you. Half the time they don't even remember half the hateful stuff they say. They are just reaching for whatever they can, like a child, to make everything someone else's fault. She can blame you all she wants but your logic should be telling you "I'm rubber and she's glue, whatever she says to me, bounces off and sticks her".
Point is. Of course she's not ready. She's lost. She's not going to stumble upon the right words and give you assurances of anything. Even if she said "the right words" you'd be a fool to believe them YET anyway. As Michele Wiener Davis says "The general rule of thumb here is to be responsive to your partners new interest, but not too responsive." Whereas you are being almost completely NON-responsive. You asked one question and she started spewing and you demonstrated your conflict avoiding/emotionally unresponsive stance by evading, getting off the phone ASAP and, now, giving her the silent treatment.
I suggest you apologize to her for skipping out on the conversation and tell her, as she's aware, that you are a conflict avoider. Tell her that if you two are going to figure anything out it's going to involve some conflict and you aren't afraid of being emotionally vulnerable. Then ask her casually if she'd like to meet you somewhere specific (a restaurant or park) "to talk" sometime this week OR NOT. You'd be approaching this as essentially saying that YOU are doing her a favor and finally willing to talk to her...if she wants.
Please see that her first big objection above was "I TRIED to talk you to". This is now her most current rationalization and justification. SHE has tried and you aren't communicative so it's again, your fault. By generally offering to talk...you take that away.
NOW...if she ACCEPTS talking. Go back to your MWD LRT techniques. Meet with her but HAVE FUN. Be more GAL than serious. When it gets serious....JUST LISTEN. I prefer to say "tend to agree" versus "validate" because validation of wayward spew is just so hard to do sometimes where it's easier to NOT buy it, let it fly past you and say "Hmmmmm, I see", while seeming to nod your head up and down followed by a poignant or misdirecting question instead of a "validating" statement. It's not your job to "validate" spew and a wayward doesn't need you to say "yeah, you're right, it's all my fault". They don't REALLY believe half the stuff they say themselves. Anyway, heres the LRT suggestions"
Originally Posted By: MWD LRT
1. Be loving in return, but not overly excited or enthusiastic.
2 Accept some invitations to spend time together, but not all.
3. Do not ask any questions about your future together.
4. Be vague when asked questions about the changes in you. Say that you are just thinking things through.
5. Continue to be upbeat.
6. Do not say, "I love you"
7. Resist getting into conversations about your marriage.
8. Beat your spouse to the punch when it comes time to leave or separate from each other at the end of an activity. You set the tone for going your separate ways.
You need to stay interested, but cool, until you are absolutely convinced that your spouse's renewed interest in saving your marriage has taken hold. Once you feel absolutely sure that this is so, you can test the waters by becoming more obvious about your desire to stay together. You can try discussing your future together and see what happens. If your spouse is receptive, you can continue to move forward slowly and begin to tackle the issues that drove you apart in the first place. If, on the other hand, you're met with reluctance, backpedal just as quickly as you can. Resume your interested but distant stance until things move in a more positive direction. This might take a whole lot longer that you would like, weeks, even months. However, you must be patient. As long as your spouse seems to be somewhat interested rather than pulling away, it's okay for your marriage to be in a holding pattern. It will try your patience, but what else do you have to do right now that could be as important as trying to save your marriage? Be patient.
I certainly expect some detractors to come behind me telling you to stay the course you are seemingly already on. Keeping your distance and making her chase you. They care about you just as I do and want to protect you from further emotional pain but you've had a window of opportunity here to save the mother of your children from making the biggest mistake of her life for awhile now. I'm estimating that she's just about done "pursuing" you (way wards think THEY are the prize...she just had some big shot Doctor chasing her so she FEELS like she's the deal right now). I KNOW it's wholly inadequate. I know she's still thinking and saying very hurtful things right now. But detaching enough so you can get in there and hack the spew while BEING the cocky arrogant man who knows he's the best man in the world for her and she'd be a fool not to reciprocate eventually is the best way to go. On behalf of your daughter/children that you DO love more than life itself I urge you to TRY to win over your wife's cold heart by being a resilient confident man who's not afraid of a little conflict and complaining.
Turn your FEAR into FAITH. You can be her hero and save her...if YOU choose to be. Sure she can reject it but she'll never be able to tell anyone you didn't try or you gave up on her and your family."
I responded...
GB,
I appreciate your response. And to be honest, even though it's only been a short time in my journey, I have questioned "doing nothing" in regards to saving my family. Now, of course, I haven't been doing nothing behind the scenes. I have been a rock solid father, GAL'ing as much as I can, and rediscovering my confidence. Yet, STBX did make some comments yesterday that troubled me.
One, she said that she did try calling in the past to express her interest in changing our present course. I don't know what this meant but it made me wonder.
Two, she said that she used to miss me a bunch but now she is just accepting everything as it is. GB, this would give credence to your theory that my window of opportunity is passing.
But, I'm torn just because her actions are pretty undeniably opposed to reconciliation.
Just thinking out loud here... I could call tonight around the regular time I call to say hello to the kids and say that I was in the area and would love to say hi to the kids in person, especially after D4's meltdown yesterday. Then, if things seem positive with STBX, I could ask her if she wants to grab a coffee and finish our conversation from yesterday.
Thoughts?
Then CaliGuy replied...
The kid stuff is so darn tough .... I do not have much to add or tell you .. I can see GB's line of thought and reasoning, this DB dance is a delicate and tricky one, I do think deep down you just need to trust and figure out what to do and when .. timing does seem to be a huge factor in all this, catching the WW in a good time and place does help.
STBX sent me two pics of the kids with a new puppy. I called 30 minutes later and said that I had just finished dinner in the area and asked if I could stop by to see the kids. STBX said i could but she and the kids were walking the puppy with her parents.
I met them at the park and walked with D4 and her new puppy. It was great to see her. She was so excited to have her new puppy. After we got back to the in laws house, I stayed s little while longer to play with D4 and the new puppy. Then I said goodbye and STBX drove me back to my car at the park.
While driving, I apologized for being out of it yesterday when she called. I then told her that if she ever wanted to finish our conversations and grab a cup of coffee to let me know. She said that she could never pass up a cup of coffee. As I was getting out of car, she said that she liked my bracelets and thought they were cool.
I was friendly and upbeat. STBX and I conversed about the puppy and smiled at each other a few times when talking about D4. All in all, I felt it was a win to see the kids and at least make the effort for future communication with STBX.
I was friendly and upbeat. STBX and I conversed about the puppy and smiled at each other a few times when talking about D4. All in all, I felt it was a win to see the kids and at least make the effort for future communication with STBX.
Hi Defacto,
A win indeed! You got to see your children, the new puppy, how happy your D4 was with the puppy and your conversation sounds like it went well. It sounds like you
may be headed in the right direction.
Please, try not to move too fast...keep on doing what you have been doing.
Take care my friend!
Bob
Agree with bob. Pma, upbeat and looking good. Then detaching with no expectations help any meeting not be devastating. That way if she spews, you're detached and it doesn't get to you.mor if no spew but not as well as you may have hoped for, there's no hope because you have no expectations.
All easier said than done, but seems to be the goal. The best of you with ww having no impact on your feelings right now.
I don't disagree with GB's post to a point, and I can see that being ok if executed well.
I have personally gone the other route. Detach, GAL, 180's, and LRT.
My wife is an addict. I have boundaries. I'm not here to enable her. I'm not here to teach her consequences. I'm not her dad. I'm not her counselor. And while we may be married in name, when she tells me the M is over and begins her serial affairs she is no longer under the umbrella being my W.
For there to be any chance of R, SHE needs to overcome her addiction, she needs to work on herself, she needs to take responsibility for her actions, and overall she needs to step up.
I have boundaries, and for me I am not going to remain friends with the person who murdered my wife (this is how I view it).
My contribution to the chance of R will be my 180s, my GAL/detachment that allows me to stay strong and remain true to my vows. That is what I can do.
Her behavior is 100% on her, and it is on her to demonstrate to me that she wants things to change. If she won't do that then I'd prefer to finalize the divorce as it's been a year and I'm not a plan B.
If she wants to interpret my distance as disinterest in her wellbeing or our M...that too is on her. I'm not responsible for assumptions, mindreading, or projections on her part. I'm here if she wants to ask questions, but I'm not chasing her down and hoping she asks so I can make sure she knows my feelings on the matter.
GB- it's funny, I don't disagree with your post, believe it or not. I simply am unwilling to assume responsibility for my STBX's actions during the M, post BD, or in the future. I am walking a path I believe in, I am just no longer interested in trying to sell it to her in any way.
I see a lot of truth in me being a conflict avoider. I will reflect on that, I have been posting on the very topic. At the end of the day all I can say is that it's part of who I am, and while I can grow and change to some extent (and I have), I am good enough the way I am, and if she doesn't see my value I'm not going to blame myself for her choices or condemn myself for not being someone I'm not.
While I see what GB is saying I just don't think your W is there right now, D.
Please go into meeting her with no expectations and if you get a chance read a post that NH copied onto his thread about detaching
For easier purposes...
It's so good I'll just re-post it. Credit to Robx
Robx on “What is DBing?”
Do you think the WAS will be attracted to someone who wouldn't move on with their life and would just stay and wait till they came back to them? Is that attractive? When you move on with your life, when you show them that you value your life just as much as you valued there life, it shows them you're a strong, confident person - those are attractive traits. When you stop holding on to them and let go and move on with your life and whatever that brings you including possibly dating new people, it shows the WAS that you are no longer a backup plan or option in their eyes, if you stay behind and wait for them to come back to you, they will always know that they can take their time coming back if they even want to come back, you give them the power of choice over your life, again not attractive. When you remove yourself as an option in their life, they don't have that choice anymore, you've taken back control of your life which is attractive because think about the qualities you're displaying with this action: confident, secure, ambitious, taking a leadership role in your life again, etc. You're not the backup plan anymore for them, the WAS is then faced with the reality that you aren't there waiting anymore, you're moving on with your life, and if their new relationship isn't working out and they were considering coming back, this generates fear of loss on their part and makes them reconsider their current actions.
That's DB'ing.
What isn't DB'ing?
Hanging in there,
writing long letters & emails,
text message "terrorism" (where you text them non stop),
begging, pleading, grovelling for love,
giving them books and articles and telling them they should feel different and they should love you,
telling them that they took marriage vows and they have to stick it out even if the marriage is horrible in their point of view,
moving out of the master bedroom,
moving out of the home to "give them space",
being sad and acting depressed,
etc. etc. etc.
None of these things is attractive,
none of these things is going to bring your WAS back home.
Is the method that I'm describing fool proof, NO.
Is it 100% successful, NO.
You show me any divorce busting method that is 100% successful all the time, it doesn't exist.
Some relationships can't be fixed for whatever reason, the other person may be at a point in their life where they really want something new & different regardless of how shortsighted that point of view may be.
But they moved on with their life.
They had an affair and found someone new.
And how did you respond when they did these things?
You started working on yourself to show them that you could change, on top of that maybe you started working out and buying new clothes to make yourself look more attractive physically. You started getting a life to show them that you're an attractive individual with options in your life. You did all these things when they moved on and chose to end the relationship. You did all these things because they moved on. They discovered they had options and when a person has options they become more attractive to other people. When a WAS leaves their marriage and starts dating other people, maybe having an affair with someone new and starts a new relationship all the while knowing that they have you in the background should they decide to ever come back, they know they have options. That makes them attractive to you because you were busting your butt trying to get them back and then trying different techniques to get their attention, etc.
In my opinion, why not try doing some of the same things the WAS does, it certainly works on you and every other LBS on these forums so there seems to be a common effect being displayed here. The person who leaves makes the decision to leave on their own. When you originally started seeing each other and dating, you BOTH chose to do that, you would BOTH choose to go out to restaurants, movies, parks, do activities together, etc. When you considered getting married, you BOTH chose to do this and planned out how it would happen. When a person leaves a marriage to pursue other people, dating, have an affair, etc. THEY are making the CHOICE on their own, they aren't making that choice with you. They are taking all the power in the relationship and choosing to do what they want and the LBS is left behind powerless. How do you change that dynamic? How do you reclaim some of the power in the relationship? How do you make a WAS reconsider their actions?
FKAF, for what it's worth, in my own situation,
things only turned around when I took back control of my life and took back the power in the relationship. I tried everything else. I moved out of the master bedroom and then the home because she asked me to because she wanted "space", I wrote letters, emails, shared my feelings, showed my wife how vulnerable I was, I begged her to go to counseling, I was needy, insecure, wussy like, bought gifts and generally jumped through every f!@#$%* hoop there was to show my wife that I loved her and wanted her back. When the WAS has that much control in a relationship, they will never be attracted to the LBS and they will never be motivated to come back. Marriage vows are just words and when a WAS has that thought process in place and "runs the show", the only thing you can do is to shake up their reality. In the end this is what is working in my situation and I'm the one now that has the hard time wanting her back after this whole process, that's the danger of detachment, I reclaimed my life back, my eyes are open now, and I'm not sure I want someone like that back in my life who would have done all these things to me, my wife now wants me to go to counseling, she wants to move back home, she talks to me everyday: in person, by text, by email, she does favors for me, she is sorry and is starting to show remorse for her actions, she wants me to forget the past and wants us to move on to a "great new" relationship for us and our family, she tells me that "people make mistakes", she tells me that she "held her family and friends in higher priority than her husband and that she knows now that is wrong".
She didn't see any of these issues as problems when she originally dropped the "bomb". She was content to live on planet "fruitopia" while she was in control and living a great life. When I hit rock bottom, reached my personal threshold of tolerance and that switch inside me finally flicked on and said "she's never going to change and she's hurting me and she knows it and still doesn't care, why am I still jumping through all these hoops to get her back?", that's when I moved back home and experienced "batshitcrazy" (and it was an experience), I slept in my bed in the master bedroom and packed all her things and told her that I wanted her to move out, instead of taking the custody scheduled she so generously gave me, I got lawyers involved and got shared joint custody, I became more active in my own life, I made her responsible for her own life (the term around here is "she can wear her big girl panties"), she was basically living an easy life on my dime, what would prompt her to change that if she was allowed to cake eat for as long as she wanted and I was feeding her that cake?
A free ride compliments of me and I realized that and I didn't want that anymore so I decided things would change.
But that's just me, that's where I am right now.
Life is really good and it's good because I know now that I'm responsible for living a great life and for a long time during the unhappy portion of our marriage I was miserable and taken for granted and I never took care of myself.
Now I have options, now I won't settle and my wife knows that. Yes I'm a bit of a hard a$$ as well as being a smart a$$, I'm working towards that middle ground for me. I'm a great dad and I make sure my kids have a great life, they didn't ask for this situation and although a part of me wants to give them their family back I can't just be married for the kids, I got married for me first and I want a great relationship and my wife is in personal counseling right now for herself and she's making real changes in her life and I just want to be sure that before I re-enter married life again if that's what I choose to do, it's for the right reasons and that a relationship will be loving, caring, fun, enjoyable and maintainable because regardless of what anyone says, marriage is hard work and I don't care if that doesn't sexy, that's reality. Married people get lazy with each other and take each other for granted, you have to consciously treat each other better, you have to make time for dating which means getting a sitter for the kids, you have to put excitement in the mix, you have to travel, you have to do things together but also make sure you maintain a personal individual life as well.
How's that for a verbose long winded post ;-)
I hope it helped a little.
Just an FYI...there are tidbits of truth and effective strategies in "Plan RobX'" but it's NOT DB'ing. It's plan Robx. Limited in scope and depth by his own singular personal experience. He mixes his own philosophies and terrible advice and he's simply a nobody, LIKE ALL OF US HERE, except Michele Weiner-Davis. Stick with the real expert and her LRT if you really want to save your marriage.
BTW, Robx was banned from DB and several other infidelity forums. I surprised that post is allowed here because it's promoting another plan, "Plan Robx", that is being literally presented as DB.
My personal opinion. I think Plan RobX is divorce advice.
I'd also surmise his experience doesn't apply to your situation because you DID NOT roll over completely on your wayward wife. You stood up for yourself. She moved out. You exposed and you basically haven't taken her spew (sure you avoided it, but you didn't just take it and accept all the blame). Your wife is pursuing you.
There are some good points so it's not a complete waste of "ink". I was thinking of suggesting a couple similar points though. For example, I think you'd approach this "having second thoughts conversation" from the aspect that YOU are the one now having second thoughts. You thought you were done with the marriage and moving on but when you spend more and more time with your kids and see the effects it's having on them; you just KNOW you have to try. Basically, you PRESUME her interest because YOU are the awesome dad, good provider, super guy that has confidence and mojo....of course, she wants to get back together with you. You almost apologize for not approaching her with your feelings earlier. Just don't give talking about her second thoughts much ground. Why wouldn't she have second thoughts, it's not like you had an affair. Now, don't SAY that. You just proceed "as if"....being fun and confident. You aren't there to talk her into giving you a second chance and it'd be nice to slip in a couple boundaries you are going to require before you are willing to commit full steam to recovery (she needs to leave working anywhere near OM). It should be a primary condition prerequisite to her moving back home along with ending the divorce filing.
Read up on "Presumptive Closing" as a sales technique because that's basically the strategy you'll implement. Might avoid some spew because you aren't there to listen to her grievances. You are there to talk about the future.
When you meet her. If the conversation gets deep you might also use a DB type - Solution Focused Brief Therapy type - MIRACLE Question: Ask your wife to close her eyes and envision a future where you both have a wonderful happy marriage and family and ask her to describe what that would look like to her, then ask her to be specific with first what you'd be doing in such vision and then what she'd be doing in such vision. Listen long and hard. Let her wonder around with this focusing her on the future versus spewing about the past. Then you say, "we are both reasonable logical intelligent individuals that should have no problem developing a plan and implementing those behaviors until they become our habits and achieving a marriage both of us with enjoy and be fully satisfied with. I know that doesn't sound romantic but it can be. Basically we both want the same thing, a romantic and loving marriage of extraordinary care. We just never knew how to do it. I've been learning a lot lately and I'd like to lead us there if you want. I can't do it alone. It won't be easy, but I'm willing to try. Our children deserve a shot at that vision too."
I do agree with part of what he is saying about being attractive to the wayward spouse. Building a life and GAL without them. Many of the reconciled spouses have said that a big factor was seeing the LBS moving on without them and that life would be 'okay' without them.
That was the point I was leaning towards.
Thanks for the response and support guys! Sorry, I meant to post this yesterday but I wasn't able to. I will catch up on the other comments and reply later when I get the chance.
Zues,
I completely understand your position. I do want to at least have a shot at saving my MR. My W, or who I knew to be my W, is gone for good. I'm not even really confident I could ever love this new woman again because of how much she's changed. It makes me wonder if she pretended to be somebody else during our MR and just finally decided she had enough pretending.
What gives me an ounce of hope is that STBX still seems conflicted about her present course. I feel she still genuinely cares about me or why would it matter if I was angry with her or hated her like she alleged the other night. Maybe that is the guilt talking, who knows?
Journaling:
Today started out much better than Monday. I went in to work a few minutes early to get caught up from yesterday. STBX sent me a few cute pics of D4 with the new people. I responded with a short TM playfully acknowledging the pics. A few hours later, STBX sent a pic of S1 with the puppy and a video of D4. I did not respond to this.
Around lunch time, STBX sends a TM saying that she is contemplating a different school for D4 and asks if I remember one of the schools we looked at before. She also invites me to visit the school again with her again tomorrow morning.
Me: Yeah, I do remember liking it. I will try to make it tmw morning. Thanks!
I'm totally in favor of a different school for D4 mainly because the financial burden of her current school is tremendous. So hopefully STBX and I can agree to make the switch.
I FaceTimed with the kids as usual. At the end of the call, I told STBX that I'd be able to meet her in the morning to tour the prospective school for D4. She seemed grateful that I could make it
Last night, I had the philosophy discussion group that I facilitate at the local brewery. I always look forward to a little John Locke paired with an American lager. I have thoroughly enjoyed reconnecting with my love for philosophy and critical discussion. It just stinks that it took BD for me to do it.
I can see some of the take aways from Rob X's plan. However, I don't plan on dating or doing anything like that.
Journaling:
This morning's school meeting with STBX went great. She was late with the kids but I didn't let it affect me. The old the Defacto would have been agitated or even upset, but I didn't let it bother me one bit. We enjoyed the new school for D4, plus it's much more financially viable than her previous school. Win win. STBX and I were both very engaged and asking questions with the school personnel during our meeting.
After the meeting, STBX and I talked about the school and we both agreed this was the best option moving forward. It reminded me that if there was one thing we were good at together, it was problem-solving.
I helped put the kids in the car seat and STBX came over and hugged me and thanked me for being there. After I finished saying goodbye to the kids, she came over and gave me another hug and thanked me again. As we were driving away, I didn't look over to her car. At the stoplight I glanced over and STBX was looking at me. She smiled and waved at me. I smiled and waved back.
I think it went really well. I acted "as if" and I was confident and assertive. I was attractive and friendly. Numerous times, when we heard something we liked about the school, STBX and I would look at each other and smile. I know, no expectations. But I am pleased that we are able to work together when making important childcare decisions.
I do agree with part of what he is saying about being attractive to the wayward spouse. Building a life and GAL without them. Many of the reconciled spouses have said that a big factor was seeing the LBS moving on without them and that life would be 'okay' without them.
That was the point I was leaning towards.
Yep. That's spot-on, and it's basic human relationship dynamics. People tend to value most that which is difficult to obtain.
Starsky
My personal opinion. I think Plan RobX is divorce advice.
I didn't agree with everything he advised (ex: dating), but thought he had some pretty good advice. While whether or not someone was able to reconcile their marriage or not shouldn't be the be-all/end-all in determining the value of their advice, it sure does influence it.
Starsky
On the dating question, ask yourself if you feel you are ready to have a real relationship if the other person goes and falls for you? What if your W asks to reconcile, what would you do with this OP?
On your above question about whether or not you can love this new woman your W has become, that's probably a good place to be. It is detached, it is not take her back at any cost. The point is you will have to decide to give it a try, and then you'll both have to spend time learning who the other really is. Then you decide.
Is she who she is now or who she was then? A little from column A, a little from column B, with a bit of column C (she doesn't & you don't know yet who she is growing into). She changed abruptly. Don't get too locked into pegging her as the way she is now is the way she will always be (if you look back at yourself, I suspect you'll recognize how you have changed and will be a different person in a future relationship without all of the emotional stress of the current sitch). Trying to fix someone in time is a big part of our problems. We start reacting to the people we think they are, rather than seeing who they are, what they need, and what they are afraid of in this current moment, and then our reactions get us into trouble. Both parties do this, and it is somewhat inevitable, but the less you can do it the better you'll be at Rs, whether w/ your W or someone else.
Hello Defacto,
I just wanted to stop by and say "Hello!" You are in my thoughts and prayers. I'm really happy to hear that this morning's school meeting with your STBX went great. Hooray!
Please keep a PMA, don’t give up and keep moving forward. We all have your back, my friend.
Bob
Thanks Asitis and Bob, I truly thrive on your advice and encouragement.
Journaling:
STBX called while I was on my way home from work. She said she was so sad. I asked her why. She said that she sees my pictures on Instagram and all the comments from my friends. She misses having all of her old friends in her life. She said that she wished that we could have figured this out just the two of us. I did a lot of "ok's and I understands." I didn't apologize but I told her that I understand how she feels because I went through something similar when we first met. It's obvious that she still blames me for the exposure but I just let her talk about why she was sad.
However, I felt it was time to take the lead. I told her that I don't know what happens between us in the future but if we were ever got to the point where we work on our MR, I wouldn't let any friend hold it over her head if I was able to forgive her. I told her I have some reservations and concerns myself. I'm not convinced we could ever get back together either.
I then utilized GB's example and I asked her to imagine a perfect relationship, like the one we envisioned for each other. She said that she was having a hard time imagining it. She admitted that we did have great times together with the kids but she's not sure that is enough to make us happy. I alluded to how well we worked together at the school on Tuesday and she agreed. I told her that I always felt like we did well to problem solve during our MR and again she agreed. I then asked her why two intelligent people like ourselves couldn't figure out these problems.
I told her that our MR could never be the same and I see that now. She asked me what I meant. I told her about some of the things I wish I knew about myself and marriage in general before BD. She sincerely thanked me for sharing this and said it was good to hear.
I then thought it would be wise to change the subject a bit to lighten the seriousness. I told her about my experience with the new puppy spending the night yesterday with the kids. We joked that the puppy helped me to work on having more patience and we both shared how we like watching D4 with puppy.
I then told STBX that I needed to get ready for the kids and we said our goodbyes. I almost felt like she was lingering a bit when I hung up.
So, I feel that it went ok. I obviously tried to employ a nuanced approach. Some might say that I might have pleaded but I think it felt more like me leading. Multiple times I shared my reservations and doubts about us ever working out. I never asked her to do anything. I feel like I just offered some alternative viewpoints.
Anyway, no expectations. I really do have doubts about us still being compatible but for the sake of the kids, I'd still like a shot at it. However, I do feel like I am making my own way much better as of late.
I'm really looking forward to heading out of town on Saturday. It will be great to spend time with friends and getting away from it all for a few days.
Perfect.
I read on another thread Cadet bumped where MWD posted the following:
You ask whether doing a 180 will lead to out of sight, out of mind. It totally depends on your particular situation. That's the point about all of the methods I write about. You try something, and you watch the results. If it isn't working, you switch gears. But doing the same old thing when it isn't working is the best way to create problems in your marriage.
So, try your 180 for a few weeks and see what happens.
Michele
I think the point of trying something new is a good one. "Pursue" her for a bit here, in a confident, fun, "as if" manner and see what happens. Focus on the "fun". She just hinted at being jealous of all the fun you are having....so invite her along when you can (coffee first, no doubt...don't over do it). She needs to experience this new more fun you AND see that all your friends are going to pretty much be fine with you two being back together. Pick out the most understanding of friends. Maybe you know a couple that has even experienced infidelity, told you about it after finding out about your situation and survived. They could be very helpful since they reconciled themselves. Our friends were super supportive and we've become the go-to couple for helping all our friends as everybody struggles with this marriage thing.
Let your wife "pursue" serious couple conversation. You listen intently. Ask questions and listen some more. Do your leading by actions versus trying to lead a recovery by talking about it or wearing your heart on your sleeve.
It's be kind of funny for the stoic non-emotional guy to be the one saying "I'm not really quite ready or sure about becoming emotionally vulnerable to you right now. Let's just have fun". Perhaps you hint that there's a lot more about you you've recently discovered and learned about yourself that you'll share in time; but, right now you are content with just having fun and getting to know the real her.
BTW, my wife was really different for a year or so but slowly morphed into something better than she ever was before or during that time in our lives. Life has planted you both here. Bloom. You don't have much to lose in the effort, but SHE unknowingly does.
Thanks GB. I'm just trying a varied approach if STBX seems to be pursuing. We'll see if this works any better...
Journaling:
STBX called as I was driving home from work. She said she was just waking up. We made some brief small talk and then she asked about the kids schedule this weekend. I told her that she had them Saturday and Sunday night. She seemed surprised and then she inquired about when I would be dropping them off. I told her my normal time 3pm.
This wasn't satisfactory for her as she talked about having to wake up early and how I don't get enough time with the kids because of the nuances of our work schedules. She complained about having to hear about how D4 misses me all weekend. She also said that I was abandoning D4. I responded that I didn't see it that way because I was dropping the kids off with their mom. STBX asked if I could keep them longer tomorrow and I told her I couldn't because I was going out of town.
I responded by saying that I always want to spend more time with the kids. I agreed that under normal circumstances I could keep the kids for longer. I also agreed that I saw how our schedules sometimes shortchange my time with the kids. She thanked me for listening and I thanked her for bringing it up, especially when it's about what's best for the kids. She said that I'm obviously the more fun parent but I downplayed this a bit. I then said I needed to hurry to pick up milk for S1 and we said our goodbyes.
I was calm, drank a STFU smoothie, and agreed with STBX where applicable. I would think she'd be happier getting more time with the kids on this occasion but who knows the heart of her motivation.
Two things that are interesting. STBX called to say hi to the kids on her way into work. At the end of the call, she asked if I remembered before we were separated when she used to send me TMs that she missed me. I said yes. Then she asked me if I missed her too when she sent those TMs. I said of course I did but I know I did a bad job expressing it. She said that there was a spot at work where she used to send those TMs and she was reminded of it the other night. I told her that I used to like getting them.
Second thing is that she mentioned in passing that she would just pick up the kids from my house tomorrow now because she has some errands to run. I thought to myself...Really? Errands? I thought you needed to get some rest. I told her that it made no difference, whatever was most convenient for her.
Anyway, having a great night with the kids. Looking forward to my morning with them tomorrow and then my trip out of town afterwards.
Journaling:
I had a great extended weekend. It started with STBX picking up the kids from my place. She came inside, sat down on the couch, and motioned for me to sit next to her. I did and she put her head on my shoulder. She started to fall asleep and after a few minutes I woke her up and let her know I needed to head out. D4 asked about STBX's sandy feet. STBX said that she went to the beach and took a nap in one of the cabanas. She then gave me a hug and said that I looked nice.
As soon as they left, I began on my road trip. After a few hours, I arrived at my best friend's house and he, his wife, his wife's friend, and I hit the town. We had a good time but we're probably out a bit too late.
The next morning, after a delayed start, we picked up some breakfast and Bloody Mary's. Later that afternoon, my best friend and I worked on making concrete pavers for his back yard. It felt good to get my hands dirty and help my buddy out. Afterwards, we rewarded ourselves by hanging out in the pool and hot tub. I FaceTimed with STBX in the kids while I was still wet from the pool. STBX felt compelled to ask if I was at a hotel. I just replied by saying no.
Here's where things get a little dicey. After we finished with the pool, my friend, his wife, her friend, and I wanted to get caught up on True Detective. However after a few minutes, my friend and his wife went to bed, leaving his wife's friend and me. We had been chatting off and on throughout the weekend. Needless to say, a few too many beers later and she and I ended up making out. I'm obviously a little conflicted about this and I'm sure I have a bunch of 2x4s coming my way.
Today, I woke up early so I could visit a state park on the way home. Then I got home with a few hours to spare so I went jogging, straightened up the house, and picked up a few things from the grocery store. Definitely a productive and rewarding day.
STBX dropped off the kids on her way in to work. She asked me if I had fun over the weekend. I told her that I did. Before she left, she got out of her car to give me a hug. The hug was longer than usual so I ended it after a few seconds. STBX also said that I looked good as she got back into her car.
So all in all it was a fun and pretty eventful weekend. I do regret the incident with my buddy's wife's friend but the selfish, weak part of me feels like I deserved it.
No 2x4's...just a little Tsk Tsk (and a little high five). Learn from it and move on. No harm, no foul.
Defacto- would that have ever happened if you hadn't been served D papers?
Not saying it's right or wrong, just curious.
I'm assuming the answer is 'no', and if so then you just regroup and reread your mission statement. No one besides you and that individual should ever think of it again. But I would encourage you to shut that down going forward until you are fully D'd, have accepted that to the core, and have waited long enough to know that it won't turn around. That's just me though. Take care!
So when you ask your wife to change jobs and/or never see or speak to OM again and she, in return, justifiably requests that you never see or speak to OW as well as your best friend and his wife again what are you going to do?
What a horribly disrespectful thing for your best friend and his wife to do to you and your family. Casually setting you up on a pseudo-date and then leaving you alone with her. Your first mistake wasn't kissing her...it was putting yourself in temptations way. If anything good can come of this (which it probably won't) is that you'll now understand that cheating isn't all that hard to do. Share some laughs, some conversation and a few drinks and, just a few hours later, you FEEEEEEEL like you deserve it.
Feelings LIE.
Just like they did for your wife who imagined herself as all that as Dr. McDreamy picked her out of the crowd of other female minions to give his attention to.
Both of you FINALLY did something for yourself AND IT FEEEELLLLLTTTTTT GOOD.
Sometimes these things have a way of working out and helping recoveries. I hope so for your children's sake but I can't help thinking you'd have been better served just sitting on that couch with your wife friday night and never leaving town.
Are you still communicating with this girl?
If her number is in your phone ERASE IT RIGHT NOW before you lose your mind and start texting and calling this girl like a typical wayward.
Don't go back there until you are divorced.
You do intend to tell your wife about this, right? Your best shot at recovery requires honesty. It'll probably help. Your wife will be hurt and jealous, but now that you are in the same boat she'll see a path of recovery that doesn't involve so much shame and guilt on her part (where she won't feel like you can or will hold it over her head forever). I've seen it go the other way too, where the wayward FEEEEELS they made a mistake and got in to far making their affair an accident whereas your revenge affair is supposedly over the top and intentionally done to hurt them. It's crazy logic but revenge affairs are a double down on crazy. I'm just hoping for the best since I invested so much time and energy helping you.
Thanks Ralphy. I think this is a good approach to take.
Zues,
I'm sure that subconsciously being served triggered a finality in my understanding. I can try to persuade myself that it isn't over (and I know that it isn't) but sometimes it's difficult to ignore the cold reality that my STBX has taken finite and calculated steps when filing for D.
GB,
I knew you'd be disappointed. And while I don't think it's entirely fair to compare it against my STBX's previous actions, I do regret what happened. To be honest though, revenge wasn't a conscious motivation for me. Now, the source of my regret and motivations is a discussion for another thread.
To answer your questions, I do not have any way of contacting her. And I would tell my STBX about it if we ever found ourselves in a place of reconciliation in the future.
I am disappointed in myself because I wanted to be above reproach during this whole journey. Nonetheless, I will learn from this mistake going forward.
Journaling:
I had a pretty uneventful day at work. Made the kids dinner, bathed them, and they drifted off to sleep with no problem.
STBX called a little late to talk with kids and they had already fallen asleep. We had a friendly chat about topics relating to the kids. Then, as I was saying goodbye, STBX said that she would like to get together sometime later this week and spend some time with me. I said something like "yeah, we can figure out something to do."
I think it would be a mistake to turn her invite down as she's clearly pursuing a bit. What do you all think? Ideas on how to handle a get together with STBX?
Friendly and nonchalant. Be the one to leave first.
Defacto,
I just wanted to tell you what a huge inspiration you have been. Ive been lurking and keeping up on your sitch for about a month.
Just wanted to say, keep up the good work. You have come such a long way.
Good luck with your "get together"
Lunch with her in a public place wouldn't hurt.
LIGHT conversation. Be an incredible listener, but no R talks!
Wear something new (clothes [including new SHOES -- chicks dig shoes!] AND a new cologne). Have somewhere you have to be after 75 minutes or so, and be the one to cut the lunch short. Give her a sliiightly lingering kiss on the cheek, tell her she looks amazing, and leave.
That's what I'd do.
Starsky
T0 & Starsky,
Thanks for the advice. Yeah, I'm definitely planning on keeping it lighthearted. I'm a little torn on the specific scheduling. With our schedules, I could do an extended lunch with work on Friday or I could meet her before I pick up the kids on Saturday afternoon. I also have Friday night available but I would kind of like to keep that open for GAL activities. I'd like to get whatever scheduled with STBX by Thursday evening.
Any thoughts?
Journaling:
Work has been very manageable as of late. STBX called once after her shift to get some info from me so she could enroll the kids in the new school. She called a few hours later to tell me that the kids were officially enrolled. I could tell she was happy and excited so we enjoyed it together. I sincerely thanked her a couple of times for getting it all set up.
Did a little shopping at the mall on my lunch break. Pretty stoked to pick up two blazers for next to nothing.
Got home from work a little early. The kids and I threw a couple of steaks on the grill. S1 was exhausted so he passed out fairly quickly. Then, D4 and I did some workbooks together so that she keeps her studies up over the summer break. Right before D4 fell asleep, STBX called to say goodnight.
Just an all around good day. Tomorrow night I have band practice. Opened up a beer and picked up the guitar to make sure I remember how to play these songs.
Journaling:
Another low key day at work. Just really having fun with all my coworkers. STBX called at the end of her shift but I was busy and didn't answer. After lunch, she sent a cute video TM of S1. I jokingly replied to the TM.
When I got to band practice, I spoke with the kids a bit. As I was about to end the call, I asked her if she wanted to grab lunch tomorrow (in response to her request earlier in the week to spend time together). She said yes and seemed excited about it.
During practice, I saw that I missed a few calls and TMs from STBX.
"Wanted to ask you when you would like to meet tomorrow. I told my friend that we could meet her at the beach so I want to coordinate my plans. Also...I've eaten at X Restaurant almost every morning the last three days. Is there anywhere else you'd like to go? Otherwise we can have dinner. Whatever works for you. :)"
My reply:
"I really am super flexible for lunch and could do an early dinner too."
So it sounds like we will either end up doing lunch or an early dinner. Either way I will keep it fun and casual. And I took Starsky's advice and picked up a new pair of shoes.
Other than that, had a blast at band practice and am currently taking an online parenting class my state requires for divorcing parents. Fun!
Just realized that you and I have almost identical BD dates Defacto. Mine was 1/10 of this year.
Talk about a crummy weekend for us both huh?!
I had actually high fived a client three weeks before because 2014 was such a tough year for us both and we were sure that 2015 was going to be much much better....
Good luck on the meet up tomorrow, I know you'll be cool and all of the hard work you've put in so far will keep you that way.
Love the shoes idea too. Brilliant.
PP,
Thanks brother! Yeah that was a crummy weekend to say the least.
Journaling:
STBX agreed to meet up for lunch today. She sent me a TM that they were on their way so I knew that she was bringing the kids. No worries, that just makes it easier to be friendly and casual.
I decided to be a few minutes late and I pulled up next to her car in the parking lot. We both helped get the kids out of the car. She hugged me and said it was good to see me. She also mentioned that she liked the bracelets I was wearing.
The conversation was all light and casual. We talked about the kids, her new opportunities at work, but nothing even close to R talk. I was friendly and engaged the whole time. I made eye contact with her whenever I could and noticed she had watery eyes for half of lunch, but I won't go as far as to say they were tears. I've also noticed that her hands sometime tremble but this could just be from lack of sleep or something.
We smiled at each other whenever the kids did something funny and held a fairly steady conversation. We both agreed it was time to go after about 40 minutes. I helped load the kids into her car. Once both kids were strapped in, STBX waited by the side of the car and gave me a hug. Then I pulled a Starsky, gave her a kiss on the cheek, and told her she looked amazing. She said, thank you, and told me that I've never looked better. Then, she asked if she could have another hug.
Then she walked over to the driver side and said thank you. I asked for what. She said it was for agreeing to meet up with them. I smiled, wished her a good day with the kids, and said goodbye.
I felt it went pretty well. No big deal really. I figured it would. No breakthroughs. No expectations.
Way to go, Defacto. Looks like you are on the right track.
Keep it up
Pulling a Starsky is better than pulling a muscle, I always say.
Thanks Jeff and Starsky!
Well, strikes and gutters, my friends.
After lunch, STBX sent me two TM pics of goofy book covers from the library. I kind of chuckled but didn't feel the need to respond. About two hours later, STBX calls. I decided to answer.
STBX proceeds to complain about having to get three years of financial records together and her running out of her retainer for her L. She basically says that her L wants to go after me for alimony and child support and she doesn't want that. She mentions trying to resolve the D between ourselves. She complains that if she has to pay another retainer, she can't move out and get her own place. She tells me that she is in debt and can't afford for this to be drawn out. She states that she doesn't want to go after me like her L wants her to.
I just listen the best I can. I tell her that if she wants to propose another approach, I can review it with my L. I say that I'm not a legal expert so I don't know all the options. She says that she doesn't have time to research all the other options this weekend because she is going out of town. Eventually, I tell her that I need to get back to work.
A half an hour later she sends me this TM:
"I spoke further with my L. I guess we will stick to the path we are on. I want to be clear though that I want this to be amicable because I love you and I love our kids."
So, yeah...kind of a downer. I know, stay the course but sometimes I just really contemplate getting this over with so I can get on with the rest of my life. It really makes me wonder if she didn't just want to get together with me so I would be more agreeable to just go along with her quick D idea...
I'm really starting to wonder if I shouldn't just take the D that she's offering now because it seems completely fair (joint custody, no child support, no alimony). Dragging it out will cost me more and I might get less in the end.
However, is it possible that her L would go after child support and alimony now when their initial D filing didn't?
I'm really starting to wonder if I shouldn't just take the D that she's offering now because it seems completely fair (joint custody, no child support, no alimony). Dragging it out will cost me more and I might get less in the end.
Defacto, I think you are one of the better DBers around. I just wanted you to know that. FWIW, I think you will ultimately be successful. Your WW talks so lovingly to you. Not like the usual temp checking. Even if you do D, don't you think she will come around?
Also FWIW, joint custody, no child support, no alimony sounds like a great deal. I would snatch it up in a second.
RAI
Correction: you will be successful no matter what. What I meant to say is that eventually I think you will R.
I'm not a lawyer
However, I would take whatever you think is best for you and the kids. So, if you think this offer is great, I wouldn't let you hoping for R get in the way of taking it. Yes you may R but you also may not and the terms of the D will stick by you and your children. If she's being friendly and willing to be amicable I personally would take it. As many say divorce is a piece of paper.. You two haven't been living the married life for awhile now.
And I apologize if I'm coming off harsh I just wouldn't want you to pass up a good setup for D over the hopes of R. I would hate for you to wait and things turn nasty and you end up having to fight tooth and nail for custody, etc.
Hope this makes sense
Oh and time to pull back if she's pushing D again but I'm sure you already knew I was going to say that
I'm really starting to wonder if I shouldn't just take the D that she's offering now because it seems completely fair (joint custody, no child support, no alimony). Dragging it out will cost me more and I might get less in the end.
Defacto, I think you are one of the better DBers around. I just wanted you to know that. FWIW, I think you will ultimately be successful. Your WW talks so lovingly to you. Not like the usual temp checking. Even if you do D, don't you think she will come around?
Also FWIW, joint custody, no child support, no alimony sounds like a great deal. I would snatch it up in a second.
RAI
RAI,
Thanks for the encouragement. It doesn't always seem that I am doing a good job DB'ing.
Part of me has a hard time understanding why STBX can be so nice to me but still want to D. Maybe she's just so far removed from R that the friend zone seems natural to her. When we D, I don't know how much longer I will wait around for STBX. I guess I'll just have to wait and see.
I'm not a lawyer
However, I would take whatever you think is best for you and the kids. So, if you think this offer is great, I wouldn't let you hoping for R get in the way of taking it. Yes you may R but you also may not and the terms of the D will stick by you and your children. If she's being friendly and willing to be amicable I personally would take it. As many say divorce is a piece of paper.. You two haven't been living the married life for awhile now.
And I apologize if I'm coming off harsh I just wouldn't want you to pass up a good setup for D over the hopes of R. I would hate for you to wait and things turn nasty and you end up having to fight tooth and nail for custody, etc.
Hope this makes sense
Oh and time to pull back if she's pushing D again but I'm sure you already knew I was going to say that
T0,
Yeah, that's kind of where I'm at right now. Is it wise for me to look a gift horse in the mouth right now? I'm not sure a drawn out, contested D is really going to help anything right now.
Journaling:
FaceTimed with kids and STBX last night. I was outside a local brewery talking with the kids and STBX asked where I was. I told I was out getting ready to watch a friend play a music gig. I find it odd that she still wants to know what I am up to.
This morning, STBX dropped off the kids (and the puppy!) at my place. She greeted me with a long embrace. I returned the embrace. She also commented on how she liked my shoes. We all went inside for a few minutes and talked casually about kid stuff. Then, STBX said goodbye and gave hugs to kids. She then turned to me and gave me a hug but this time I kept it brief on my end.
She didn't mention anything about where she was going this weekend and I definitely wasn't going to ask.
GAL update...
Enjoyed some friends playing some cover songs last night. Just an all around good time last night. Tonight, the kids and I will be spending the night with my best friend's family.
Defacto, I have the same issue. W being do nice to me the last few months which is a completely different attitude from BD. I know part of it putting no pressure on her and leaving the her to her own path. Another part wonders what else may be the cause of it. Shes still completely consumed in the A also, so who knows.
Defacto, I have the same issue. W being do nice to me the last few months which is a completely different attitude from BD. I know part of it putting no pressure on her and leaving the her to her own path. Another part wonders what else may be the cause of it. Shes still completely consumed in the A also, so who knows.
Fogg, I think it's fairly common for a WW to act nice and wanna be "friends" with her H. Mine tried taking it to the extreme initially. It was almost as if overnight we went from being a married couple to being BFFs. She was friendly and all smiles, wanted to talk on the phone, hang out as a family, even tried talking about OM at times, although I always put a stop to that. I finally realized that it was total cake eating and I had been putting up with it to be close to her, and thinking that being friends was an open door into rebuilding our M. After reading enough online, getting plenty of advice from family, and realizing that she was totally head over heels in love with OM, I pulled the plug on the whole friendship idea and have went almost totally dark on her. Not sure if she's feeling any impact but it is helping me to detach.
In Defacto's case though, there seems to be some mixed messages coming and it definitely sounds like his W is confused about what she wants. I still think there is a good chance of reconciling based on reading through the entire thread. Hang in there brother.
Fogg & Dwh,
I didn't think I had expectations going into Friday's lunch with STBX but subconsciously, it seems like I did. Why else would I have been so impacted by her D and L talk later that afternoon? Just need to keep on my track and pull back a bit.
Journaling:
Had a fantastic weekend with the kids. Saturday night had a sleepover with the kids at my best friend's house. I posted a picture of us making raspberry lemonade popsicles to Instagram. STBX commented, "You are the best."
The next day, I took the kids down to a children's museum, along with my buddy and his son. It's so exciting to see the kids learn and discover new things!
STBX called to talk with the kids for the first time on Sunday night. It was the normal exchange. The kids and I were upbeat, etc. STBX did go out of her way to ask what the kids and I did over the weekend. Again, she made no mention of her whereabouts, nor did I inquire. I simply said goodbye and wished her a good night.
On the legal front, I think I will stay on my present course. I was contemplating calling my L to ask about just moving forward on D but I will hold off on that approach for now. I have been procrastinating and haven't gathered up all the financial documents yet. I think I will do that tonight.
On Tuesday night, a friend invited me over to her house to hang out. Don't worry guys, her girlfriend will be there too. And on Wednesday, it will be good to get back to our trivia night after a few weeks off. Then, I have the kiddos from Thursday to Sunday.
Good job man. It's tough to NOT have expectations, even when you think you don't. I'm 4 months out from BD and still bounce around emotionally almost every day. Stay the course - you are making the right choices for you and your kids, and with any luck, are lighting a path for your W to eventually find her way home.
I think that female friends are fine, as long as you are both sure and feel the same about the status of the relationship. I think it's difficult, but not impossible, for a man and woman to be just friends, especially when both are single. Having another person around is a good idea, to help keep things casual. If you reach a point where you start to have romantic feelings, or believe that she does, then I would quickly back off. I made the mistake recently of actually going on a date, and realized within 5 minutes what a terrible idea it was. I felt guilty the entire time I was with her, and although I enjoyed the company, I simply couldn't relax. To make matters worse, I could tell that she was extremely interested in me. Fortunately, nothing intimate happened, unless you count a hug goodbye as intimate. I texted the very next day telling her that it was a mistake and I am not emotionally ready to date anyone right now. She was actually very cool with it and thanked me for my honesty. We are still texting but doubt I will spend any more one on one time with her.
Good luck with moving forward on the D. Remember, that doesn't mean anything other than a legal status. It has nothing to do with how you and W feel about each other. I've been dragging feet as well but plan on going ahead with my own in next couple of months. There are plenty of stories where people still get back together after a D. Hang in there buddy, you're doing great.
Dwh,
Thanks for the encouragement. I feel pretty safe for tomorrow's get together as her literal girlfriend will be there. She's just an old classmate from college. As far as D is concerned, it seems inevitable now. Just staying the course and being a rock star dad for my kids.
Journaling:
TM exchange with STBX from this morning...
Her: D4 had such a good weekend with you. She really likes the science museum. Thanks for being the best dad ever.
Me: (an hour later)
We had a great time
STBX: (immediate response) Awww.
I just spoke some more with my attorney and she had very nice things to say about the guy you chose.
(Note: STBX bashed my L on Friday, calling him a misogynist.)
I guess her paralegal had the wrong idea about him.
Me: Oh ok
STBX: She said he's a family man.
-----
Kind of a weird exchange with STBX when I FaceTimed with kids tonight. She seemed mellow, even sad, and was overly inquisitive about my weekend with the kids. Apparently, D4 mentioned to STBX that she was with her friends over the weekend. This must have piqued STBX's curiosity about her old friends. She mentioned about how she missed them. She was asking about her old friends and if they had anything new going on. I just responded nonchalantly and tried to steer the conversation back to the kids. I just kept smiling and kept a PMA. She knew I was out at dinner so she wished me a good night and I did the same.
Anyway, met up with a buddy for happy hour. Plan on watching an action flick and try to work up the motivation to get my paperwork together for the financial affidavit.
Maybe I am being a greenhorn here, but have you read the DR chapter about "act as if" recently?
You seem to have accepted what you see as inevitable yet, if you think about it, there are small signs of something different. Why did they happen and how could you create more of them. One thing I have picked up from the book is that it's never too late, the fog could lift at any time, even the darkest hour...
Feel free to ignore me, this is all new stuff to me and I'm a bit of a kid in a candy store ATM.
Beagley,
Thanks for the perspective. I agree with you that my sitch, and any other sitch, could turn at a moments notice. And I have continued to apply the DB principles. However, the inevitability I speak of is probably more of a psychological coping mechanism. Telling myself that D is inevitable is helping me get to the acceptance stage of grief. I need to convince myself that I will be just fine even if my marriage fails, as it clearly has up to this point.
But you are right, I could probably stand to learn a few more things from a DR reread.
Hang in there Def
I am watching your every post and think you are doing so well.
It seems to me like there is alot of hope in your sitch....even if the D happens.
I know how hard it is to stay positive and have no expectations.
I am so new to this and always look at your sitch to see what/how you are doing.
Stay the course...It isn't over and she is giving you nice interactions, even if it is about lawyers and stuff.
Agree with the others. Honest, I would love to have some of the exchanges you are having right now. Your W seems genuinely interested in your life. I thought I had that for a few weeks, until I realized it was extreme cake eating, and she really had no interest in me, other than as a friend and source of financial support. When the money stopped, so did her interest in me. It's only been a couple of weeks, but almost total lights out so I'm not feeling very optimistic right now. You seem to be doing well and have reason to feel slightly optimistic, but play it cool. As you know, everything can change on a moment's notice. Hang in there brother.
Morning D
I agree with you on this one. When I read the Stockwell Paradox it really reasonated with me. You see traces of it here all the time. Accept and expect the worst and anything that is a positive is just icing.
Not that we should be miserable or anything. Just accepting the reality allows us to find an inner peace.
Sorry NDY, can't see where the Stockdale Paradox says anything about accepting the worst and anything positive is just icing.
Vice Admiral James Stockdale said "You must never confuse faith that you will prevail in the end—which you can never afford to lose—with the discipline to confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be." This seems to be more like you will win through even though what you perceive about you current circumstance may not be to your liking. In other words always have a PMA, work with what you have and/or can see and always believe that you'll succeed.
Maybe I am missing your point?
Jeff & Dwh,
Thanks for the encouragement. I feel that I am hanging in there. It makes me glad that my sitch is able to provide some type of inspiration to you all.
NDY & Beagley,
Perhaps "inevitable" was too strong of a word to use. Maybe it was too deterministic. Nonetheless, I can't see how pretending I am not on the path towards D helps me through my journey. IMO, acting "as if" is a strategy to employ when you are interacting with your WAS. I can have a PMA when I am around STBX while still knowing D is a present reality. DB'ing is more for me to detach from any negative reaction to STBX's waywardness. I don't want a D. But, as far as my personal recovery is concerned, I don't think it's healthy to deny my present reality. However, this doesn't mean that I have given up or lost hope. I know that I still have a long way to go either way.
Journaling:
Last night, STBX sent me a pic of S1 and a told me how he is scared of thunder. I chuckled to myself but didn't respond.
I watched a movie and watched the latest episode of True Detective. I even began getting my financial paperwork together for the L. This felt surprisingly cathartic.
This morning was pretty busy at work for a change. It's now just finally starting to settle down.
STBX sent a video TM of the kids this morning. Immediately afterwards, she sent a YouTube link to a funny video that had a song we used to enjoy together years back. I replied with...
Me: Aww I love that they're so musical (only responding to video TM of kids)
STBX responds with some commentary about S1's funny dance moves.
Me: I agree
STBX: I miss you.
And I miss my friends. XXXX is in town and was trying to coordinate seeing me and XXXX(her former best friend) separately. It's so awful.
Me:Yeah, it's been tough. I miss our little family.
STBX:Me too. I do not belong anywhere.
I contemplated replying but decided against it.
-----------
Ultimately, STBX is going to figure this out on her own. I've given her subtle nudges along the way and have occasionally returned her pursuit.
I do miss my STBX. But I wonder if it is the togetherness with someone who makes me feel good about myself that I really miss. I've learned that I am way too beholden to the acceptance and approval of others. This is something I need to explore on my own within myself regardless of any R with STBX.
Has anything moved on the Divorce Front. My wife served me the same day. My wife does not seem to be anywhere near the state of mind that your wife is right now. However, I would read Sandi's thread, or again if you have not already read it. You need to make sure you are not being used as the "friend." That allows her to cake eat and you will never really move forward.
My wife had me convinced that we were working on things. The reality of it was she wanted me to go peacefully while she continued the A. No that the papers have been served she has turned into a real nightmare to deal with. She is in full throttle attack mode.
...You need to make sure you are not being used as the "friend." That allows her to cake eat and you will never really move forward...
Very wise words WhyUs.
Sandi's thread might give some ideas for how to test this or maybe one of the vets has some words of wisdom?
Is it time for some boundaries to be defined? If there's any negative reaction to them, then maybe it's an indicator that cake eating is prevalent?
Well, I served cake myself for several weeks and am quite familiar with what it looks like. Based on what I'm reading, this sounds like more sincere interest than cake eating. Of course, I would recommend caution and not having expectations, but maybe a glimmer of hope in there. Crossing my fingers and toes; I love reading positive outcomes.
I agree with Dwh.... Seems like interest to me. Plus I don't think Def has been serving much cake lately anyways. He is holding his boundries and she is pursuing.....just be careful, Def.....keep with the process...no expectations, Right?
That sounds wonderful then. Looking forward to a positive outcome as well.
Good luck:)
I don't see where Defacto has been serving up any cake for a long time now, so I don't think he has to worry about his wife trying to cake-eat. She's in partial PURSUIT mode, so that is good, and he's successfully flipped the power dynamic. It's now up to him to decide which pursuit offers to accept, and which to be too busy/mysterious for, and as long as he maintains his core boundaries through that process he should be fine.
Starsky
Thanks for everybody's response to my sitch. I truly appreciate the insight and feedback. Sorry I haven't been more responsive the last couple of days. I made a conscious decision to step back a little bit. I think what happened to Matt spooked me a little but it's more that I need to spend more time living and less time worrying about my sitch.
Journaling:
The last couple of days have been fairly straight forward. Work is starting to pick up a bit. Had some fun nights out with some friends.
Last night began a four day run with the kiddos. I'm really excited to have them back and have some really good ideas for some fun adventures together this weekend.
Interactions with STBX have been status quo. She intermittently sends video TMs of the kids and sometimes I reply back, sometimes not.
Last night, STBX called well after the kids bedtime. She was concerned about D4 being upset at the child exchange. I told her that we had a fun time and both kids were sleeping. STBX then began to say that she missed our family and she missed me. She said everything happened so fast and she wished things had turned out differently. She then talked at length about the friends she lost and how much it hurts, etc. I mostly STFU, listen, let her talk, and occasionally agree or validate.
After a few minutes, she gets a work call and says that she will have to call me back. I say don't worry about it, I'm going to go to sleep, and have a good night.
Obviously, the lost friends issue is a major hurdle for STBX. I don't have any quick fix for that, just time I guess. However, it appears that she is still detoured from focusing on addressing the real problems in the MR, including her A.
Still a very long way to go...
Have a great weekend, friends!
Journaling:
I hope everyone had a great weekend!
Had a wonderful time with the kids. We went to the circus and the zoo and I just cherished every moment with them.
Had a few phone interactions with STBX. She continues to mention missing me and the family. I validate and share when appropriate. She asked to have breakfast on Sunday morning but I tell her the kids and I already had plans for the zoo.
----
STBX called this morning. She is obviously still conflicted. She started by saying she was sorry. I aloofly asked her for what. She said for how everything fell apart so fast.
She said she just doesn't know how it will turn out. I ask her what she wants to happen. She said she doesn't know and asks me the same question. I respond by saying I'm not so sure either anymore.
She then talked about how she has thought about getting back together many times. She then asks if she could open up to me. I respond affirmatively. STBX says she would have a problem ML because of her marital rape allegation and she couldn't imagine being in a MR like that. I validate her concern, say that I would have some issues too, and mention that if we ever started to work on our relationship again, we would obviously need some help to work through everything. She agrees.
STBX then asked me if I was dating. I kind of laughed and told her that I wasn't ready for that yet and was spending all my energy on the kids. Somewhere in the conversation, I mention that I have learned a lot about myself that I would be able to apply to my next relationship with her or somebody else.
Then, STBX spent a lot of time talking about the group of friends she lost through all this. I just listened and validated. She got emotional recounting the difficulty of her lost friendships. I did say that time can heal a lot of things.
After a little while, I said that I had to run for work but if she wanted to continue this conversation some time to let me know. She tearfully thanked me and said she would. We then said our pleasant goodbyes.
STBX opened up a few times over the weekend but this call was a little more in depth than the previous calls. I plan to pull back a little over the next few days, as I will have the next three nights to myself.
As usual, I will try not to have any expectations. I feel like my best approach here is to be patient and continue to do what I have been doing.
Any feedback or suggestions?
Good Job Def!!!
You are doing so well in your sitch. Very Inspiring. Keep it up.
Thanks Jeff! Like anybody, I'm always second guessing myself though. Just need to be reminded that this is going to take a while to resolve, regardless of the outcome.
Hi Def, I think you did really really well. Just to clarify - the marital rape allegation? Was that an allegation she made in respect of your M? Feel free not to answer if this is too personal a question.
The only part where I thought you should play it cool was this:
"but if she wanted to continue this conversation some time to let me know"
I'm being pedantic, but it looks a little like pursuit. She knows where you are if she wants to talk again, you don't need to offer....but really I think you did great in general - I'm only being picky!
xx
Toots,
Thanks for checking in on me!
Totally agree how the invitation to STBX to talk further could be viewed as pursuit. I justify it, rightly or wrongly, as me planting a seed for her future pursuit if she wants to actually take me up on my offer. Kind of that back and forth dance.
I do want to clarify the marital tape allegation, especially as it could help me get some much needed perspective. STBX told me after BD during a MC session that sometime after the birth of S1 I pressured her into ML when she didn't want to. She does admit that she never asked me to stop during the incident in question. The incident was never discussed and we continued to ML months after the incident, including twice after BD. My STBX does have previous incidents of assault, with which I helped her to begin to deal with early in our R and felt I have been very supportive throughout. Even today, she admits that this only happened once during our R and she knows it is not in my nature.
I obviously take her allegation seriously and I understand that her feelings are paramount here. I can't stress enough that I feel horrible that I made her feel that way, even if not intended. However, a part of me can't help but think she is just using this isolated incident as some justification for her actions. Immediately after I exposed A, she also made other wild, untrue allegations that haven't been brought up since.
Just not sure how I should respond in the future if she continues to bring up this incident...
Wow, de facto, my ww brought up the same thing. She said there were a couple times 4-5 throughout our 14 year history that she would have sex with me even though she didn't want to and wouldn't say no or ask to stop during. Looking back in those moments I guess I essentially wore her down by almost begging in a sense. Nothing physical or threatening like most assume when rape is brought up.
Every time happened after I was drinking, but no where near every time I drank did this occur. We would talk about it the next morning and it seemed to be ok and we'd continue to have sex.
She tried to get therapy, but in the end, didn't do the work or want to do the work to get past it.
I hate it because I take that extremely seriously and definitely don't consider myself someone who would take and violate someone else. However, if you say "ok" and have sex with me how do I know you don't want to. For me it felt like every sitcom you'd see. Married guy wants sex from his wife and she doesn't give in very often so he begs and pleads and eventually she say ok and he's happy.
That was a lot of our relationship, but I never constituted that as rape.
Interactions with W look great defacto, keep up the great work. That allegation she's made is tough with the situation you're in but I think your doing the beat you can. I can understand thinking it may be her justifying things that have happened. You atill validated her concerns and told her professional help would be needed. I'm not sure you can fully apologize for something that may or may not happened but you are respecting the fact that right now she has those feelings and aren't discounting them. In the future if things do change it can be something that's looked into deeper with help.
Wow, de facto, my ww brought up the same thing. She said there were a couple times 4-5 throughout our 14 year history that she would have sex with me even though she didn't want to and wouldn't say no or ask to stop during. Looking back in those moments I guess I essentially wore her down by almost begging in a sense. Nothing physical or threatening like most assume when rape is brought up.
Every time happened after I was drinking, but no where near every time I drank did this occur. We would talk about it the next morning and it seemed to be ok and we'd continue to have sex.
She tried to get therapy, but in the end, didn't do the work or want to do the work to get past it.
I hate it because I take that extremely seriously and definitely don't consider myself someone who would take and violate someone else. However, if you say "ok" and have sex with me how do I know you don't want to. For me it felt like every sitcom you'd see. Married guy wants sex from his wife and she doesn't give in very often so he begs and pleads and eventually she say ok and he's happy.
That was a lot of our relationship, but I never constituted that as rape.
Thanks for sharing from your personal sitch, Rip. I often wonder why my STBX didn't bring up this incident before BD but then I realize that she probably didn't feel safe sharing that with me due to the present state of MR. For me, just like with all the other issues in my sitch, I need to strongly consider how my STBX feels about the incident. Based on her past, I highly doubt she would exaggerate her feelings about something this serious. However, when she has mentioned this incident previously, she brings it up like a cataloging of my past wrongs to counteract her misdeeds. Like a "I know I did something wrong but do all of our friends know what you did wrong" kind of thing.
Interactions with W look great defacto, keep up the great work. That allegation she's made is tough with the situation you're in but I think your doing the beat you can. I can understand thinking it may be her justifying things that have happened. You atill validated her concerns and told her professional help would be needed. I'm not sure you can fully apologize for something that may or may not happened but you are respecting the fact that right now she has those feelings and aren't discounting them. In the future if things do change it can be something that's looked into deeper with help.
Thanks Fogg. I think that is really the only way to deal with this incident in the future. I will respond with the sensitivity required when brought up again. If we ever R, this will be another item for the therapist to work with us on.
Defacto,
Great job interacting with your wife. It looks like things are moving in the right direction. I stated that your wife has lost a lot of friendships. Does she have friends that have stood by her during this time? Are there people who support what she as done?
Defacto,
Great job interacting with your wife. It looks like things are moving in the right direction. I stated that your wife has lost a lot of friendships. Does she have friends that have stood by her during this time? Are there people who support what she as done?
Thanks for the support. Her closest friends know about the A. They have drifted apart because of they won't support her actions. She has made a lot of new friends at work. I'm sure they have supported her as some are divorced themselves but I don't know how much they know about everything.
Defacto, I completely agree. There's my experience and ww experience and while both could be different, it doesn't change the way the experience made/makes her feel.
I don't discount that and have done a lot of work on pursuing, self-esteem, etc so that sex with anyone isn't my go to cure for insecurity or feeling alone/apart from anyone who cares about me - as was the case largely with her. I made her essentially my everything.
With that, she can either choose over time to accept that, do work on her own and heal or hold on to it and nothing will be the same. I have the same choices when it comes to the lying, cheating, affair hurt she did.
I continue to wish you the best and hope you and your wife and able to make choices to do the work and move closer towards each other, assuming that's what you BOTH want.
I was just wondering because my wife has kept several of her friends throughout the process. She started brain washing them prior to the A being exposed. It drives me crazy that they support her. It is like they have no brains. They don't even take the time to understand the truth and the hurt she is putting our children and me through. They tell her things like, you will find the special true love of your life one day. You will know and feel it when it is there. You can handle being a single mom, many women do.
Why the heck are they not saying. Stop what you are doing. Try to work things our with your husband at least for your children's sake. your moving way to fast. I just don't understand. I don't understand how anyone can support her though this. Even her parents, what the heck are they thinking. Do they honestly believe all the lies she tells them even though they have never seen me act any of the ways that she claims.
I was just wondering because my wife has kept several of her friends throughout the process. She started brain washing them prior to the A being exposed. It drives me crazy that they support her. It is like they have no brains. They don't even take the time to understand the truth and the hurt she is putting our children and me through. They tell her things like, you will find the special true love of your life one day. You will know and feel it when it is there. You can handle being a single mom, many women do.
Why the heck are they not saying. Stop what you are doing. Try to work things our with your husband at least for your children's sake. your moving way to fast. I just don't understand. I don't understand how anyone can support her though this. Even her parents, what the heck are they thinking. Do they honestly believe all the lies she tells them even though they have never seen me act any of the ways that she claims.
People in general are naive about infidelity. They just don't know what to say or how to be supportive. Waywards also have a delusional way of either mishearing someone or misconstruing everything said into being supportive of their chosen [wayward] actions. Unless you are reading or hearing this stuff yourself, don't believe that everyone is being 100% supportive of your wayward spouses activities and behavior.
Also, people are generally self centered and your wife has demonstrated by her actions that she thinks people and relationships are disposable. They don't dare confront her because she likely has already conditioned them to tell her only what she wants to hear. If they even hint at a "serious discussion" they get a stone face and then the silent treatment for a time. The truth is inconvenient to the fantasy so way wards avoid friends and family to a large extent thus the friends and family are scared she's ditching them too. Like you, they are in friendship and daughter relationship survival mode.
Sometimes, after a recovery, the friends and family will indicate that they were talking among themselves and thinking it was a bad idea but they never were given the opportunity by the wayward to give their true opinion.
A true friend would sit them down and set them straight, but way wards are squirrel'y like that and difficult to pin down.
If you recover....avoid these friends and family for awhile. Focus just on your marriage and marital relationship and put off considering or thinking about mending those friendships until later, if ever. I choose to forgive most of those persons without an apology because ignorance is bliss and I didn't need to "teach them" anything. My behavior as a man and husband thereafter speaks and spoke for itself. However, there is one former close friend of my wife's that was much more of an accomplice that we haven't seen or spoken to in over a decade. I'd forgive her if she asked, but we are in no hurry to ever reconcile a relationship. I never laid down any law about it...like "we will never speak or see her again" rather it was a joint decision in recovery that our marriage and family would be better served associating with healthy, preferably married persons that would hold us both accountable for our behavior versus unrepentant multiply divorced adulterers. Your mileage might vary.
The incident was never discussed and we continued to ML months after the incident, including twice after BD.
Pretty good indication that it's a rationalization and justification for her affair that will subside and disappear once she's in love with you again. She ML twice after Dday, but she's still conflicted and probably each time "just didn't feel it". This is a continuing effort to say "I'm not comfortable having sex with you right now and I don't know if I will ever be". That is a common sentiment for wayward wives because women, generally and genetically, romantically "love" one man at a time. Since she's not "in love" with you right now it feels kind of "bad" to have sex with you and wonders if it will ever be OK again.
I obviously take her allegation seriously and I understand that her feelings are paramount here. I can't stress enough that I feel horrible that I made her feel that way, even if not intended. However, a part of me can't help but think she is just using this isolated incident as some justification for her actions. Immediately after I exposed A, she also made other wild, untrue allegations that haven't been brought up since.
This is DEAD on. But you don't need to educate her on this.
Just not sure how I should respond in the future if she continues to bring up this incident...
Validate. Listen and empathize.
Maybe....IF and WHEN this continues a third...fouth...fifth time, you'll have to take this to conflict. Recall...the road to intimacy is THROUGH conflict so this isn't a bad idea. It isn't a fight. It's a discussion. You don't have to conflict avoid this, in fact, you point this out as a new relationship tool you've recently learned.
Your talking points:
1. Rape is a dangerous and unfair word to use here. Sure "no" means "no" but she did say "yes" at some point and you were never armed, never threatened her, never truly coerced her (she's been allowed to say "no" hundreds even thousands of times before without true repercussions)..
2. Honesty is important. Just as it is important for her to communicate honestly that she didn't want to have sex that night AND that after you two did have marital relations that she was actually emotionally hurt by the incident such that you could apologize and make amends in a timely fashion BEFORE she built up resentment about the incident and secretly harbored such a bitter thought, it is ALSO important for you to express YOUR feelings which would be:
a. That you are again...super sorry you ever made her feel that way and that you will do whatever you can to make amends for it. (owning it in the exact manner you hope she'd own her behavior...continue to lead or be the lighthouse by example).
b. Make suggestions for making sure this never happens again (again this is corollary to the way you hope someday she'll make amends for her affair and to make sure it doesn't happen again). For example, there is a consent app. It's not perfect but college kids (guys) are now using the app to insure, by video, that they have preauthorized documented [sober???] consent to contemporaneous sexual relations. I've never seen the app in person. Just read about it. It has flaws and it's certainly ridiculous to suggest in a marital situation but it might be a good suggestion to show the lengths you will go to to insure she never "feels" that way again. Then again (thinking to myself), you'd be a fool to have sex with her again WITHOUT express consent if she's got a "marital rape" allegation in her still pending divorce petition. She could be setting you up for a more aggressive allegation and then use it against you an unexpected child custody dispute.
[I know that sounds OUTRAGEOUS, but way wards are unpredictable and if you are the 1 in 50 guy that's being set up...at least you were forewarned]
b. That, at the same time, you can't help "FEELING" that this a convenient truth and merely a rationalization and justification for her affair with the doctor. That might make her mad, but you are just sharing your "feelings" in a calm manner. You are being honest and honesty has been a problem in your relationship. Her being mad and upset that you'd "feel" she made that up is OK. Conflict is OK. Listen and validate, but you wouldn't be being honest unless you shared your doubts.
c. Hopefully, in time, she'll come to forgive you just as you hope and believe, in time, you'll be able to forgive her. Perhaps it's good that we both have some issues coming into this potential recovery. Our kids deserve our best efforts to figure this out and clean up our respective sides of the street.
On to another point -
She asked you the other day/night if you knew what you wanted. You choose the "I'm conflicted and not sure myself" route that day which is fine in the distancing/pursuing game; HOWEVER, at some point it MAY be nice to skip to the next step in the LRT and be a little more confident. Consider also that it's attractive for a man to know what he wants and pursue it. Women also have a need/want to be cherished, desired and loved. This isn't a suggestion to pour your heart out there, buy her gifts and declare your never ending love; but, it does, perhaps, to some extent mean saying something like the following:
You: "I actually know exactly what I want"
her: "what???"
You: "I want to want you and I want you to want to want me"
her: "huh, what's that mean?"
you: "It's really a minimal emotional requirement"
her: "huh?"
you: "Let's see if I can explain this. I think you and I both logically can agree that our children deserve the best future we can provide them and that getting back together is in their best interest...wouldn't you agree?
her: "sure"
you: "That was a yes or no question, so you agree, we "should" try for them?
her: "yes" [get her saying 'yes' like any good salesperson would]
you: "But, I'm thinking that's probably not enough for either of us. I want....no I need, passion and love in my life too. I need more than just staying together "for the kids". I also know I'm not going to survive in this marriage if I don't get to ever see you looking at me the way you did on our wedding day. Do you agree, yes or no?
her: yes. (you are speaking her language - love and passion the wayward fantasy)
you: So, if we aren't "in love", this isn't going to work for either of us.
her: ok???
you: So our "problem" isn't that we both don't know what we want to do. Our problem is that we aren't in love with each other and if we both just simply decide "OK, today our kids DO, in fact, deserve our honest effort to fix this even though it will be uncomfortable and emotionally risky but we don't have to fix anything right now. We just both need to agree that we want to want to fall in love with each other and maybe make our way out of this mess". At that point, our problem simply and logically just becomes "how do we fall in love with each other again"?
you: [presume the close....that she wants to want to fall in love because who doesn't?} So how do you fall in love?
LISTEN....VALIDATE....LISTEN SOME MORE.
you: well, actually I started to compile a plan. You know, logically me and trying to engineer emotions but it occurred to me that YOU are my (and our families) emotional center. I couldn't conceive of a plan to fall in love with you without your input. Maybe that's why we are perfect for each other. A marriage can't be all emotional and it can't be all logical. I cherish the balance you've brought to my life and am prepared and willing to learn more about being and expressing myself emotionally. Will you help me?
her: help you what?
you: "learn to be more emotionally expressive in the way that you like AND give me your honest input with the recovery plan I've partially conceived in my mind."
her: "sure, I guess but I can only imagine what you've engineered in your mind. Love should just happen, it can't be planned"
you: "I so agree. But "love" doesn't happen in a vacuum. We'd have to spend time together alone and as a family. We have to date just like we did when we first met. My initial plan is pretty simple but we can discuss it later because any effort we make to recover is going to involve some conflict and arguing because avoiding conflict is one of the biggest reasons we are at this point today. Today isn't about figuring out any definite JOINT plan. Let's deal with that later...when we are a little more sure about wanting to want..... SOOOOOOO... do you want to fall in love again?
her: maybe
you: Yeah...you now KNOW what you want. Me too. I want to want to fall in love with you too. That's it. That's all we need to decide TODAY. That should be a valentines card really. Let's go have some fun and deal with this stuff later. How about Saturday...Saturday night at 8 o'clock good for you.
Don't be afraid to tell her what you want and what she should want. Ask her to agree. If she doesn't, no big deal. Just go back to distancing. She's again, not ready. If you get a chance to drop in that your "initial plan" that you worry about arguing about requires, at a minimum, if she ever expects you to "look at her as you did on your wedding day" and how you "fall in love with her" that she has to quit/change jobs. That there is zero way possible for her to expect you to actually be head or heels in passionate romantic love with her if she continues going off daily to work in any proximity to the OM. Simply ask her how she would honestly "feel" were the situations reversed. You aren't asking her to do anything she wouldn't require herself if the shoe was on the opposite foot here. If she wants you to want to fall in love with her.....that's a good way for her to show it.
Wow...that took awhile. Not around as much lately. I'm over 250 posts in and still under restriction. Not feeling very welcome here (I know, feelings aren't truth but still).
The incident was never discussed and we continued to ML months after the incident, including twice after BD.
Pretty good indication that it's a rationalization and justification for her affair that will subside and disappear once she's in love with you again. She ML twice after Dday, but she's still conflicted and probably each time "just didn't feel it". This is a continuing effort to say "I'm not comfortable having sex with you right now and I don't know if I will ever be". That is a common sentiment for wayward wives because women, generally and genetically, romantically "love" one man at a time. Since she's not "in love" with you right now it feels kind of "bad" to have sex with you and wonders if it will ever be OK again.
I obviously take her allegation seriously and I understand that her feelings are paramount here. I can't stress enough that I feel horrible that I made her feel that way, even if not intended. However, a part of me can't help but think she is just using this isolated incident as some justification for her actions. Immediately after I exposed A, she also made other wild, untrue allegations that haven't been brought up since.
This is DEAD on. But you don't need to educate her on this.
Just not sure how I should respond in the future if she continues to bring up this incident...
Validate. Listen and empathize.
Maybe....IF and WHEN this continues a third...fouth...fifth time, you'll have to take this to conflict. Recall...the road to intimacy is THROUGH conflict so this isn't a bad idea. It isn't a fight. It's a discussion. You don't have to conflict avoid this, in fact, you point this out as a new relationship tool you've recently learned.
Your talking points:
1. Rape is a dangerous and unfair word to use here. Sure "no" means "no" but she did say "yes" at some point and you were never armed, never threatened her, never truly coerced her (she's been allowed to say "no" hundreds even thousands of times before without true repercussions)..
2. Honesty is important. Just as it is important for her to communicate honestly that she didn't want to have sex that night AND that after you two did have marital relations that she was actually emotionally hurt by the incident such that you could apologize and make amends in a timely fashion BEFORE she built up resentment about the incident and secretly harbored such a bitter thought, it is ALSO important for you to express YOUR feelings which would be:
a. That you are again...super sorry you ever made her feel that way and that you will do whatever you can to make amends for it. (owning it in the exact manner you hope she'd own her behavior...continue to lead or be the lighthouse by example).
b. Make suggestions for making sure this never happens again (again this is corollary to the way you hope someday she'll make amends for her affair and to make sure it doesn't happen again). For example, there is a consent app. It's not perfect but college kids (guys) are now using the app to insure, by video, that they have preauthorized documented [sober???] consent to contemporaneous sexual relations. I've never seen the app in person. Just read about it. It has flaws and it's certainly ridiculous to suggest in a marital situation but it might be a good suggestion to show the lengths you will go to to insure she never "feels" that way again. Then again (thinking to myself), you'd be a fool to have sex with her again WITHOUT express consent if she's got a "marital rape" allegation in her still pending divorce petition. She could be setting you up for a more aggressive allegation and then use it against you an unexpected child custody dispute.
[I know that sounds OUTRAGEOUS, but way wards are unpredictable and if you are the 1 in 50 guy that's being set up...at least you were forewarned]
b. That, at the same time, you can't help "FEELING" that this a convenient truth and merely a rationalization and justification for her affair with the doctor. That might make her mad, but you are just sharing your "feelings" in a calm manner. You are being honest and honesty has been a problem in your relationship. Her being mad and upset that you'd "feel" she made that up is OK. Conflict is OK. Listen and validate, but you wouldn't be being honest unless you shared your doubts.
c. Hopefully, in time, she'll come to forgive you just as you hope and believe, in time, you'll be able to forgive her. Perhaps it's good that we both have some issues coming into this potential recovery. Our kids deserve our best efforts to figure this out and clean up our respective sides of the street.
On to another point -
She asked you the other day/night if you knew what you wanted. You choose the "I'm conflicted and not sure myself" route that day which is fine in the distancing/pursuing game; HOWEVER, at some point it MAY be nice to skip to the next step in the LRT and be a little more confident. Consider also that it's attractive for a man to know what he wants and pursue it. Women also have a need/want to be cherished, desired and loved. This isn't a suggestion to pour your heart out there, buy her gifts and declare your never ending love; but, it does, perhaps, to some extent mean saying something like the following:
You: "I actually know exactly what I want"
her: "what???"
You: "I want to want you and I want you to want to want me"
her: "huh, what's that mean?"
you: "It's really a minimal emotional requirement"
her: "huh?"
you: "Let's see if I can explain this. I think you and I both logically can agree that our children deserve the best future we can provide them and that getting back together is in their best interest...wouldn't you agree?
her: "sure"
you: "That was a yes or no question, so you agree, we "should" try for them?
her: "yes" [get her saying 'yes' like any good salesperson would]
you: "But, I'm thinking that's probably not enough for either of us. I want....no I need, passion and love in my life too. I need more than just staying together "for the kids". I also know I'm not going to survive in this marriage if I don't get to ever see you looking at me the way you did on our wedding day. Do you agree, yes or no?
her: yes. (you are speaking her language - love and passion the wayward fantasy)
you: So, if we aren't "in love", this isn't going to work for either of us.
her: ok???
you: So our "problem" isn't that we both don't know what we want to do. Our problem is that we aren't in love with each other and if we both just simply decide "OK, today our kids DO, in fact, deserve our honest effort to fix this even though it will be uncomfortable and emotionally risky but we don't have to fix anything right now. We just both need to agree that we want to want to fall in love with each other and maybe make our way out of this mess". At that point, our problem simply and logically just becomes "how do we fall in love with each other again"?
you: [presume the close....that she wants to want to fall in love because who doesn't?} So how do you fall in love?
LISTEN....VALIDATE....LISTEN SOME MORE.
you: well, actually I started to compile a plan. You know, logically me and trying to engineer emotions but it occurred to me that YOU are my (and our families) emotional center. I couldn't conceive of a plan to fall in love with you without your input. Maybe that's why we are perfect for each other. A marriage can't be all emotional and it can't be all logical. I cherish the balance you've brought to my life and am prepared and willing to learn more about being and expressing myself emotionally. Will you help me?
her: help you what?
you: "learn to be more emotionally expressive in the way that you like AND give me your honest input with the recovery plan I've partially conceived in my mind."
her: "sure, I guess but I can only imagine what you've engineered in your mind. Love should just happen, it can't be planned"
you: "I so agree. But "love" doesn't happen in a vacuum. We'd have to spend time together alone and as a family. We have to date just like we did when we first met. My initial plan is pretty simple but we can discuss it later because any effort we make to recover is going to involve some conflict and arguing because avoiding conflict is one of the biggest reasons we are at this point today. Today isn't about figuring out any definite JOINT plan. Let's deal with that later...when we are a little more sure about wanting to want..... SOOOOOOO... do you want to fall in love again?
her: maybe
you: Yeah...you now KNOW what you want. Me too. I want to want to fall in love with you too. That's it. That's all we need to decide TODAY. That should be a valentines card really. Let's go have some fun and deal with this stuff later. How about Saturday...Saturday night at 8 o'clock good for you.
Don't be afraid to tell her what you want and what she should want. Ask her to agree. If she doesn't, no big deal. Just go back to distancing. She's again, not ready. If you get a chance to drop in that your "initial plan" that you worry about arguing about requires, at a minimum, if she ever expects you to "look at her as you did on your wedding day" and how you "fall in love with her" that she has to quit/change jobs. That there is zero way possible for her to expect you to actually be head or heels in passionate romantic love with her if she continues going off daily to work in any proximity to the OM. Simply ask her how she would honestly "feel" were the situations reversed. You aren't asking her to do anything she wouldn't require herself if the shoe was on the opposite foot here. If she wants you to want to fall in love with her.....that's a good way for her to show it.
Wow...that took awhile. Not around as much lately. I'm over 250 posts in and still under restriction. Not feeling very welcome here (I know, feelings aren't truth but still).
(((standing O)))
Starsky
Just checking on my pal!!!! Any updates Defacto?
The incident was never discussed and we continued to ML months after the incident, including twice after BD.
Pretty good indication that it's a rationalization and justification for her affair that will subside and disappear once she's in love with you again. She ML twice after Dday, but she's still conflicted and probably each time "just didn't feel it". This is a continuing effort to say "I'm not comfortable having sex with you right now and I don't know if I will ever be". That is a common sentiment for wayward wives because women, generally and genetically, romantically "love" one man at a time. Since she's not "in love" with you right now it feels kind of "bad" to have sex with you and wonders if it will ever be OK again.
I obviously take her allegation seriously and I understand that her feelings are paramount here. I can't stress enough that I feel horrible that I made her feel that way, even if not intended. However, a part of me can't help but think she is just using this isolated incident as some justification for her actions. Immediately after I exposed A, she also made other wild, untrue allegations that haven't been brought up since.
This is DEAD on. But you don't need to educate her on this.
Just not sure how I should respond in the future if she continues to bring up this incident...
Validate. Listen and empathize.
Maybe....IF and WHEN this continues a third...fouth...fifth time, you'll have to take this to conflict. Recall...the road to intimacy is THROUGH conflict so this isn't a bad idea. It isn't a fight. It's a discussion. You don't have to conflict avoid this, in fact, you point this out as a new relationship tool you've recently learned.
Your talking points:
1. Rape is a dangerous and unfair word to use here. Sure "no" means "no" but she did say "yes" at some point and you were never armed, never threatened her, never truly coerced her (she's been allowed to say "no" hundreds even thousands of times before without true repercussions)..
2. Honesty is important. Just as it is important for her to communicate honestly that she didn't want to have sex that night AND that after you two did have marital relations that she was actually emotionally hurt by the incident such that you could apologize and make amends in a timely fashion BEFORE she built up resentment about the incident and secretly harbored such a bitter thought, it is ALSO important for you to express YOUR feelings which would be:
a. That you are again...super sorry you ever made her feel that way and that you will do whatever you can to make amends for it. (owning it in the exact manner you hope she'd own her behavior...continue to lead or be the lighthouse by example).
b. Make suggestions for making sure this never happens again (again this is corollary to the way you hope someday she'll make amends for her affair and to make sure it doesn't happen again). For example, there is a consent app. It's not perfect but college kids (guys) are now using the app to insure, by video, that they have preauthorized documented [sober???] consent to contemporaneous sexual relations. I've never seen the app in person. Just read about it. It has flaws and it's certainly ridiculous to suggest in a marital situation but it might be a good suggestion to show the lengths you will go to to insure she never "feels" that way again. Then again (thinking to myself), you'd be a fool to have sex with her again WITHOUT express consent if she's got a "marital rape" allegation in her still pending divorce petition. She could be setting you up for a more aggressive allegation and then use it against you an unexpected child custody dispute.
[I know that sounds OUTRAGEOUS, but way wards are unpredictable and if you are the 1 in 50 guy that's being set up...at least you were forewarned]
b. That, at the same time, you can't help "FEELING" that this a convenient truth and merely a rationalization and justification for her affair with the doctor. That might make her mad, but you are just sharing your "feelings" in a calm manner. You are being honest and honesty has been a problem in your relationship. Her being mad and upset that you'd "feel" she made that up is OK. Conflict is OK. Listen and validate, but you wouldn't be being honest unless you shared your doubts.
c. Hopefully, in time, she'll come to forgive you just as you hope and believe, in time, you'll be able to forgive her. Perhaps it's good that we both have some issues coming into this potential recovery. Our kids deserve our best efforts to figure this out and clean up our respective sides of the street.
On to another point -
She asked you the other day/night if you knew what you wanted. You choose the "I'm conflicted and not sure myself" route that day which is fine in the distancing/pursuing game; HOWEVER, at some point it MAY be nice to skip to the next step in the LRT and be a little more confident. Consider also that it's attractive for a man to know what he wants and pursue it. Women also have a need/want to be cherished, desired and loved. This isn't a suggestion to pour your heart out there, buy her gifts and declare your never ending love; but, it does, perhaps, to some extent mean saying something like the following:
You: "I actually know exactly what I want"
her: "what???"
You: "I want to want you and I want you to want to want me"
her: "huh, what's that mean?"
you: "It's really a minimal emotional requirement"
her: "huh?"
you: "Let's see if I can explain this. I think you and I both logically can agree that our children deserve the best future we can provide them and that getting back together is in their best interest...wouldn't you agree?
her: "sure"
you: "That was a yes or no question, so you agree, we "should" try for them?
her: "yes" [get her saying 'yes' like any good salesperson would]
you: "But, I'm thinking that's probably not enough for either of us. I want....no I need, passion and love in my life too. I need more than just staying together "for the kids". I also know I'm not going to survive in this marriage if I don't get to ever see you looking at me the way you did on our wedding day. Do you agree, yes or no?
her: yes. (you are speaking her language - love and passion the wayward fantasy)
you: So, if we aren't "in love", this isn't going to work for either of us.
her: ok???
you: So our "problem" isn't that we both don't know what we want to do. Our problem is that we aren't in love with each other and if we both just simply decide "OK, today our kids DO, in fact, deserve our honest effort to fix this even though it will be uncomfortable and emotionally risky but we don't have to fix anything right now. We just both need to agree that we want to want to fall in love with each other and maybe make our way out of this mess". At that point, our problem simply and logically just becomes "how do we fall in love with each other again"?
you: [presume the close....that she wants to want to fall in love because who doesn't?} So how do you fall in love?
LISTEN....VALIDATE....LISTEN SOME MORE.
you: well, actually I started to compile a plan. You know, logically me and trying to engineer emotions but it occurred to me that YOU are my (and our families) emotional center. I couldn't conceive of a plan to fall in love with you without your input. Maybe that's why we are perfect for each other. A marriage can't be all emotional and it can't be all logical. I cherish the balance you've brought to my life and am prepared and willing to learn more about being and expressing myself emotionally. Will you help me?
her: help you what?
you: "learn to be more emotionally expressive in the way that you like AND give me your honest input with the recovery plan I've partially conceived in my mind."
her: "sure, I guess but I can only imagine what you've engineered in your mind. Love should just happen, it can't be planned"
you: "I so agree. But "love" doesn't happen in a vacuum. We'd have to spend time together alone and as a family. We have to date just like we did when we first met. My initial plan is pretty simple but we can discuss it later because any effort we make to recover is going to involve some conflict and arguing because avoiding conflict is one of the biggest reasons we are at this point today. Today isn't about figuring out any definite JOINT plan. Let's deal with that later...when we are a little more sure about wanting to want..... SOOOOOOO... do you want to fall in love again?
her: maybe
you: Yeah...you now KNOW what you want. Me too. I want to want to fall in love with you too. That's it. That's all we need to decide TODAY. That should be a valentines card really. Let's go have some fun and deal with this stuff later. How about Saturday...Saturday night at 8 o'clock good for you.
Don't be afraid to tell her what you want and what she should want. Ask her to agree. If she doesn't, no big deal. Just go back to distancing. She's again, not ready. If you get a chance to drop in that your "initial plan" that you worry about arguing about requires, at a minimum, if she ever expects you to "look at her as you did on your wedding day" and how you "fall in love with her" that she has to quit/change jobs. That there is zero way possible for her to expect you to actually be head or heels in passionate romantic love with her if she continues going off daily to work in any proximity to the OM. Simply ask her how she would honestly "feel" were the situations reversed. You aren't asking her to do anything she wouldn't require herself if the shoe was on the opposite foot here. If she wants you to want to fall in love with her.....that's a good way for her to show it.
Wow...that took awhile. Not around as much lately. I'm over 250 posts in and still under restriction. Not feeling very welcome here (I know, feelings aren't truth but still).
Wow GB. The effort you put in is tremendous. There is so much to take away and digest from your post. Thanks for your perspective. And I agree that at times I need to take the lead when STBX asks a question like that. However, I also feel like I need to do some soul searching to determine what it is I really want also so that I can answer her with conviction and purpose.
Also, I enjoy having you around GB, especially because you are not afraid to speak your mind. I appreciate your viewpoint.
Just checking on my pal!!!! Any updates Defacto?
Jeff,
Thanks for checking up on me! Nothing too divergent to report. I'm trying to get away from just posting the monotonous interactions with STBX. We generally have positive, kid centered interactions daily. Trying hard to limit my expectations and focusing on my day to day life. Just trying to stay busy with enjoyable and meaningful activities.
STBX did kiss me on the cheek tonight when she dropped off the kids. It's been months since she did that. However, this was a few minutes after I leaned in to her car and saw that OM was saved to her favorites on her iPhone. So yeah, just need to keep on my path. Slow and steady...
Stay the course Defacto. Sounds like you've got a lot going on all at once and navigating it all is going to take a lot of energy.
GB hit it out of the park in this thread.
PP
Glad you are still staying steady. You have come such a long way bud.
Just seeing him on her phone could have sent you into a tailspin and you didn't let it. Great Job!!
STBX called a couple of times late last night but I didn't answer. Then this morning she called as I was driving to work. We talked about some nuances with next month's schedule and the upcoming birthday party planning for the kids.
Then she paused and said that she just didn't know. I asked her about this and she said that I seem so happy and it seems like I'm done. I jokingly respond and let her continue. She talked more about how she didn't expect this to happen. I just listen and validate.
Then, I say that I had thought about her question the other day, about what I wanted. I told her that I do know what I want. I told her that I want to be happy and I want to feel in love with someone again like the way I felt for her when I looked into her eyes on our wedding day. She sighed like she was dreaming and remembering that moment fondly. She replied by saying that she knew I would find that again and the she sees all the girls who like my pictures on Instagram. I playfully laugh in response to this.
I then asked her about what she thought was best for the kids. She talked about the kids seeing both parents happy and independent, etc. I tried to lead the conversation a bit like GB's script but it didn't seem to be flowing the same way. I just validated and eventually ended the call. I pleasantly wished her a good day.
Then STBX called back a few minutes later and said she had a question for me. She asked me if I thought I could ever love her again. I paused for about ten seconds and said "yeah, I think so." I told her it would certainly take some time. I joked that if we ever got to that point, it would almost feel like I was dating someone for the first time. She chuckled. She said that it was something to think about it and we said our goodbyes.
It felt good to be confident and clearly express what I want to STBX. Who knows where this leads. But, I know what I want. I deserve to be happy and I want to be in love again with someone who respects me, even if that's not STBX.
Defacto,
Sounds like some good progress. I wish I were in your shoes man. You are doing a great job and she is responding well. Remember, dont push her, she will just pull back. It sounds like you have figured this out already. I'm really excited for you!
Awesome, awesome job, DF! That was really good.
I personally think you're at a key potential turning point with your wife. I will defer to GB to guide you, but will be following along as well. Your wife is displaying a lot of the classic signs that I see just before reconciliation.
Starsky
Defacto,
Are you out there? I would love to hear an updat on your sitch.
WhyUs,
Thanks for checking in. Nothing really to report. My STBX has been working for the past few days and I had the kids all weekend.
The kids and I had an awesome time. We had multiple things planned for both Saturday and Sunday. I was active on Instagram all weekend, posting pics of the kids and I having a blast. STBX "liked" every pic and really enjoyed the video I posted on Sunday. I have one more night with the kids and then I have the next two nights to myself.
Interactions with STBX have been standard and limited to saying goodnight to the kids. However, she was excited to tell me on Friday night that she got approved for a home loan. So there's that...
Just going on about my life, treasuring the moments with my kids, trying hard to limit my expectations.
How was your weekend?
My weekend was good. I had the kids as well. We visited my family and went to the beach. I still have not had any contact with my WW. Your D papers were served the same day as mine. However, the A started about 2.5 months later your WW's. My WW moved out 2 days before serving me papers. Maybe in 2 months I will start hearing from the WW. Who knows...
I'm starting to feel angry for some reason. Previously I felt sad. I am guessing this is part of the process.
Quick journaling;
Been a solid couple of days. No R talk from STBX since Friday. Interactions have been business-like. Yesterday, STBX, along with the kids and MIL, went house shopping. This action combined with filling out my financial affidavit discourages me a bit.
Then, I think about my journey thus far and my needs in a R. I deserve respect and honesty. If STBX won't or can't satisfy these needs, then D is the best option for both of us. I know I will be ok and this brings me hope.
D, you have continued to show strength in all of this.
We are all here for you, rooting for defacto
D, you have continued to show strength in all of this.
We are all here for you, rooting for defacto
Z, thanks for checking up on my sitch and sending some support my way!
Journaling:
I missed a call from STBX and I decided to call her back. She proceeded to tell me how she is going to look at houses again today. I respond with, "Oh cool, good luck."
She then states that she doesn't have enough money for a down payment and complains about not having access to the joint accounts. She said that she thought I was a higher class of person than this and can't believe that I would change all of the passwords to the bank accounts. I remained calm and responded that it is really out of my hands and I'm sure the L's could work out something in the settlement, etc.
STBX complains about wearing out her welcome and running out of room for her and the kids at her parents house. I empathize briefly and then change the subject to the kids. I say hello to the kids and then wish her good luck today.
I am no longer in denial about the D. It is happening. I have accepted it as reality. I see brief glimpses of STBX being conflicted about it but then it just disappears. I find it odd that she still asks about my plans but I'm sure that's just misguided curiosity. I don't think asking her to lunch or talking to her on the phone about her day will change her motivations right now. She clearly doesn't want to be with me. And I don't want to settle and be with someone who disrespects me either. We are strangers to each other. My life is not over, far from it.
So what's the plan now D? I've been feeling exactly the same way although I must admit your interactions with your WW are way better than mine. I'm as dim as I can be with her and the few times we've met have been pretty short in duration although she is displaying less anger these days.
So what's the plan now D? I've been feeling exactly the same way although I must admit your interactions with your WW are way better than mine. I'm as dim as I can be with her and the few times we've met have been pretty short in duration although she is displaying less anger these days.
NDY,
Yeah, that's a good question. It's important to reevaluate what my plan is going forward. Unfortunately, while I know it could be worse, a bucket full of civil interactions and a few R talks with STBX sprinkled in doesn't begin to repair MR.
I think my plan is to just continue on my current path. I am getting stronger each day. I am treasuring every moment with my kids and I am providing them a stable environment when they are with me. I am taking care of myself. I look and feel great. I am more creative, more contemplative these days and am doing things that I've always wanted to do. I didn't choose this path but I am definitely making the best of it.
I am patient but I am also fighting the false mindset that if I just wait long enough, STBX is bound to see the error of her ways. I am coming to terms with the idea that she is not coming back. I'm beginning to think that the popular image of a wayward emerging from some kind of fog is just a coping device that an LBS employs to give themselves hope and meaning in the face of utter despair. It's almost like the pot at the end of the rainbow to justify all of the suffering. While STBX might have regrets (she told me she is depressed), this can all be explained by the anxiety caused by her fear of an unknown future.
You know what? I'm okay with all of this. I can't and don't want to control her anymore. I haven't given up but I am slowly letting go of STBX as a source of my happiness and personhood.
I feel I let her go a while back. So every now and again I backslide but mainly I'm ok on my own. I understand your thoughts on 'the fog'. I've read everything sandi2 has written and as brilliant as he is and it's amazing how their M survived I just don't think I could go through half of what they did. This is leading me to think my DB days are drawing to a close. It won't make much of a difference to my life and I'll carry on regardless but for me it's done. Over.
Hi Defacto,
I can't remember if you are a man of faith, but I'd like to pass this prayer on to you:
"Lord God, Your kindness never fails. I trust that You will be with me and have mercy on me every morning. I will depend on You from now on. Amen."
I hope you find some comfort in it. Hang in there, buddy!
Bob
D -
Not that I'm trying to bring you down from you accepting the D but i think it's common that most WAS feel when the LBS truly lets go. A lot of people, including myself, say they drop the rope but it takes most a good while before the really let go.
You sound really great. Your kids are lucky to have you and so will a woman, whether it be your W or not.
So what's the plan now D? I've been feeling exactly the same way although I must admit your interactions with your WW are way better than mine. I'm as dim as I can be with her and the few times we've met have been pretty short in duration although she is displaying less anger these days.
NDY,
Yeah, that's a good question. It's important to reevaluate what my plan is going forward. Unfortunately, while I know it could be worse, a bucket full of civil interactions and a few R talks with STBX sprinkled in doesn't begin to repair MR.
I think my plan is to just continue on my current path. I am getting stronger each day. I am treasuring every moment with my kids and I am providing them a stable environment when they are with me. I am taking care of myself. I look and feel great. I am more creative, more contemplative these days and am doing things that I've always wanted to do. I didn't choose this path but I am definitely making the best of it.
I am patient but I am also fighting the false mindset that if I just wait long enough, STBX is bound to see the error of her ways. I am coming to terms with the idea that she is not coming back. I'm beginning to think that the popular image of a wayward emerging from some kind of fog is just a coping device that an LBS employs to give themselves hope and meaning in the face of utter despair. It's almost like the pot at the end of the rainbow to justify all of the suffering. While STBX might have regrets (she told me she is depressed), this can all be explained by the anxiety caused by her fear of an unknown future.
You know what? I'm okay with all of this. I can't and don't want to control her anymore. I haven't given up but I am slowly letting go of STBX as a source of my happiness and personhood.
There's so much good in this Defacto. Think of all the pain you've had to go through to end up with such a strong and positive mindset. One that I'm sure your kids see and even though they may not be able to express it, are grateful for.
Keep focusing on you, on your goals, and on being an amazing father and you're going to be just fine my friend.
PP
NDY, Bob, T0, & PP,
Thanks so much for your encouragement. The support that this place provides is absolutely tremendous.
Not much to report other than STBX feels compelled to give me updates on her house hunting LOL. I have the kids again tonight and will have Saturday night and Sunday to myself.
I'm thinking about taking the kids to some local gardens tomorrow and let them tiptoe through the tulips.
Here's to hoping I can convince one of my friends to host a True Detective viewing party on Sunday night.
Journaling:
I'm having a great morning so far. I did a couple of exercises at work with some colleagues to get the blood flowing. Then, I picked up my new iPad from UPS so I can start preparing for my fantasy football draft next month.
STBX called later this morning but I didn't answer. Then she sent a TM.
STBX: I put an offer in on a house down the way from you. I like the idea of us all staying close together.
Me: Ok, good luck!
STBX calls again but I don't answer. She sends another TM.
STBX: I thought you would be happier to have us all nearby.
I get such a strange vibe from you. Like you really don't want me to be happy.
Me: Slammed at work right now...
Of course I want you to be happy. I also think it's great for the kids to be close by and near school.
STBX: Ok. It makes me feel better too. I want them to know their daddy is right there. Always nearby.
---
The old Defacto would probably stress out about this little text exchange with STBX. Sure, it's a little discouraging to see her so ready to make such a large post-MR financial investment, especially before D is even final.
However, that discouragement quickly subsides as I realize that it IS more convenient to have the kids close by. And, if STBX feels comfortable moving forward with purchasing a new house at this time, more power to her. She couldn't live with her parents forever.
I don't think this new development changes my approach. Am I wrong?
Don't know mate. Those with more experience will advise but probably no. My WW takes every opportunity to tell me how she's planning on renting nearby as well. I said exactly the same thing as you 'Good luck with the house'. But so far she's put very little effort into actually looking for a place whereas you WW has actually committed.
Defacto, I'm in the same boat, but maybe a little further along. Keep doing what you're doing. Always for you. The progress you made is amazing. I told my stbx earlier this week "I'm happier when I don't interact with you and at times, wish I didn't have to. But, we have kids, so that won't be the case". She told me she missed talking with me at times, I told her I missed the person I used to talk with, but she's gone and not sure she's ever coming back. I also let her know I'm almost done with the grieiving process for my wife that died, not the person who's left behind I have no desire to get to know.
It's not turning ugly, but I'm also not caring about what she does or says anymore. It's pretty liberating and great for GAL and spending time with my sons.
I wish you the best. Who knows if your stbx reactions are a sign of progress or not. Either way, you have to do you and see if who she is, is someone you even want, when/if it ever comes to that.
But, the way I see it, nothing changes.
Journaling:
I'm having a great morning so far. I did a couple of exercises at work with some colleagues to get the blood flowing. Then, I picked up my new iPad from UPS so I can start preparing for my fantasy football draft next month.
STBX called later this morning but I didn't answer. Then she sent a TM.
STBX: I put an offer in on a house down the way from you. I like the idea of us all staying close together.
Me: Ok, good luck!
STBX calls again but I don't answer. She sends another TM.
STBX: I thought you would be happier to have us all nearby.
I get such a strange vibe from you. Like you really don't want me to be happy.
Me: Slammed at work right now...
Of course I want you to be happy. I also think it's great for the kids to be close by and near school.
STBX: Ok. It makes me feel better too. I want them to know their daddy is right there. Always nearby.
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The old Defacto would probably stress out about this little text exchange with STBX. Sure, it's a little discouraging to see her so ready to make such a large post-MR financial investment, especially before D is even final.
However, that discouragement quickly subsides as I realize that it IS more convenient to have the kids close by. And, if STBX feels comfortable moving forward with purchasing a new house at this time, more power to her. She couldn't live with her parents forever.
I don't think this new development changes my approach. Am I wrong?
Been tied up awhile.
IMO....this sure sounds like she's gone back to super foggy which is an indication that the affair is back on (or never stopped) and/or she's dating someone else.
Thinking back I probably should have had you stress more that any shot at reconciliation or even talk of reconciliation requires she leave that job. No contact is step one to any reconciliation. It's why I like some snooping (not obsessive snooping) because information is key to effective strategy. Based on her pursuit I presumed the affair was done and over (like you, I hoped). Should have known the entitled narcissistic doctor wouldn't give up his family AND his side piece so easy.
If you were my friend in real life I'd have you now confirm continued contact, tell OM's wife again and then, in response, tell your wife you still would like to want to want her and your marriage but you aren't going to continue to allow her to abuse and use you while she remains in her affair. Until she quits her job and ends the affair you will remain completely dark on her to the point of having an intermediary read all email, no phone calls, text only if the kids are in the hospital (and block her if she abuses it) and a neutral drop off point where you don't see or speak to her whatsoever (and she doesn't get to see or speak to you).
Disabuse her of the notion that you're all in on this live down the street from one another as "besties" and that is what is healthiest for the kids. Your kids need YOU healthy and that, if the affair continues, is best achieved by distancing yourself completely from your abusive spouse. It's also modeling proper behavior to your children. You aren't obligated to be friends with her "for the kids".
While DARK...continue your GAL but without seeing, writing to or talking to your wife whatsoever. Her (or OM) ending the affair first and going "no contact" is the only way you'll consider moving forward with any relationship whatsoever.
That, of course, would be the best plan to save your marriage and family FROM divorce. If divorce is your plan (which as a betrayed spouse you have every right to pursue), then playing along nicely with her wayward delusion of "happy" co-parents and getting the best divorce deal possible is likely the best course of action. IMO, once you achieve the divorce you are best off distancing yourself completely from your then ex-wife for at least one year (intermediary for all communications even text messages AND neutral child exchange person so you don't see or speak to your then ex-wife). Of course, true repentance can mediate that time; however, forgiveness doesn't require reconciling of the relationship (friendship/marriage). The reason for this is simple. Waywards, for as long as they continue down their destructive path are toxic. Misery, pain, depression, anxiety, accidents, hostility, etc. follow them and those around them like flies on elephant carcass. Your kids need at least one emotionally, mentally and physically safe parent to look out for them and their needs. Let your (ex) wife run her own circus.
Defacto,
Just checking on you bud! How are things? Give us an update,please!
Doesn't change your approach D, other than think of this a bit more as a co-parent. The kids will be much better off if you stay close distance wise. Otherwise, it disrupts their activities (sports, band, clubs, or just hanging with friends). It is like multi-tasking: one eye on your M & one on the sitch for the kids.
In fact in D negotiations, I'd be pushing for some kind of clause limiting distance for the kids sake, but that may not be realistic with career needs etc.
Edit - Please start a new thread - Cadet
Hey Def,
Everything ok? just checking in.
RAI