Divorcebusting.com
Posted By: Zelda09 Abuse from a partner is not fixed through DR - 06/08/15 10:39 PM
Reposted from previous thread per request before it locked.

Cadet,

Can I ask you a favor? Would you consider adding something to your welcome message please.

To encourage newcomers to examine if there is a history of verbal, psychological, emotional abuse and/or physical violence that has been present in their marriage, and that MWD does not advocate for applying her methods, or being the first to change in these instances.

I can't find it in the book, but I could have sworn I read a paragraph or two on this.

Those of us that have been in these relationships continue in them because we believe that change is possible, it will be better the next time, we can do something about it, we can fix, or that somehow it was really all of our fault that they behaved the way they did.

DR plays into this hope.

During 'piecing' my STBX escalated his control efforts greatly - emotional blackmail, verbal abuse, and finally physical assault (in between the 'highs'). "Doing what works" in an abusive relationship will often hold it together but will also encourage more of the same, too. I sensed that when my H realized I was willing to be the first to change - I told him as much when he came home - he used that against me, and took up a new habit of telling me how much therapy I would need.

I am not blaming this forum, MWD books for anything I experienced. But I think it should be an important disclaimer on that welcome message, just as MWD has a chapter that addresses how none of this applies to such a situation. I chose to be in denial for many years on the severity of the head games and control, simply because my H was such a seemingly kind hearted man.

I had six years of physical intimidation, verbal abuse, psychological twisting, and would probably still have it today if I was just willing to admit once again I was responsible for his reactions and behavior.

During piecing, I was happy to believe one can change the dance, as MWD said.

Ultimately, if a man or a woman uses abuse to get their needs met, there is no method, or amount of counseling, to prevent them from falling back on that - unless they are truly motivated and willing to make that change.

For your consideration.

previous thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2562100#Post2562100
I think that most LBS's are codependent, and that seems to be what you are getting at.

What would you like me to say?
Write it up and I will consider it.

Understand that what I have written is a compilation of words from many sources and I by no means take any credit for them other than "Paying forward" things that I have learned from those VETS that came before me or most of the others here on the board.
No Cadet, I am not getting at codependency. Anymore than we look at a woman's clothing choices after she's been raped.

I am getting at abusive relationships, and recognizing them, and understanding the hope that is sold on this site, that one person can change the dynamics of their marriage. I do believe that - but there is an exception.

Dropping the rope, STFU, do a 180 - my point is, before a LBS tries DR in hopes of putting their M back together - if it has a history of abuse - there ought to be a disclaimer of sorts that:

Physical, verbal, emotional and financial abuse is NEVER deserved, caused, earned or justified in any way. If there is this history, the LBS cannot stop the abuse through DR methods or inspire change in their abuser. If in doubt, seek the counsel of a professional educated in abuse and anger management and make your safety and well being first priority.
Originally Posted By: Zelda09
No Cadet, I am not getting at codependency. Anymore than we look at a woman's clothing choices after she's been raped.

I am getting at abusive relationships, and recognizing them, and understanding the hope that is sold on this site, that one person can change the dynamics of their marriage. I do believe that - but there is an exception.

Dropping the rope, STFU, do a 180 - my point is, before a LBS tries DR in hopes of putting their M back together - if it has a history of abuse - there ought to be a disclaimer of sorts that:]



I believe even MWD does not recommend you stay in an abusive marriage.

Again what would you like my welcome post to say?

this ?
Quote:
Physical, verbal, emotional and financial abuse is NEVER deserved, caused, earned or justified in any way. If there is this history, the LBS cannot stop the abuse through DR methods or inspire change in their abuser. If in doubt, seek the counsel of a professional educated in abuse and anger management and make your safety and well being first priority.
We encourage newcomers to examine if they have been in a marriage where abuse has been present, and to know that physical, verbal, emotional and financial abuse is NEVER deserved, caused, earned or justified in any way. The LBS cannot stop the abuse through DR methods, or inspire change in their abuser through DR. If in doubt, seek the counsel of a professional educated in abuse and make your safety and well being first priority.
I think what is being suggested is some kind of disclaimer. I have had some training in the issue, and here are some off the top of my head kinds of things commonly said:

"No one deserves abuse. Abuse can take the forms of physical and sexual violence, emotional abuse, cutting a spouse off from family and friends, and financial abuse (to keep a spouse dependent). If your current partner is abusing you or threatening abuse, your first step is your safety and distance. Abusive spouses will often use coercion to keep you in the abusive situation, including threatening suicide, cutting of access to money, depriving the abused spouse of means of communication, stalking, or outright threats of violence. If you see any of these signs, get out, get help, and ensure your safety. Only then can you be in a secure position to evaluate the relationship with the help of trained marital and individual counselor."

Tinker, and condense at will. Obviously, shorter is better, and I am constitutionally not very good at this.
Posted By: job Re: Abuse from a partner is not fixed through DR - 06/09/15 09:54 PM
Zelda and Cadet,

Before anything is posted on the subject of abuse in the marriage, I suggest that it be run by Michelle. After all, she created the forum, wrote the books, has coaching sessions, etc. She may very well have something more specific that can be placed on her introduction page of this site, which would make more sense then adding a statement just on the Welcome Page that Cadet created.

Just my two cents.
From reading other LBS's posts over the years, I have come to believe that almost every person undergoing a mid life crisis is abusive to his or her spouse in some form or another - generally emotional and verbal, especially during the Anger Stage.

While I agree with reiterating that verbal and physical abuse is unacceptable (as posted by MWD in her blog http://www.divorcebusting.com/blog/) I also believe advising every person whose spouse is abusive in some way NOT to DB would be a great disservice.

My MLC ex was occasionally extremely verbally abusive and struck me once during the 5 years I stood for my marriage. DBing helped me to set boundaries and get stronger. DBing did not save my marriage but it saved me.
Oh, and I believe this is why the subject of codependency was brought up

Originally Posted By: Zelda
I had six years of physical intimidation, verbal abuse, psychological twisting, and would probably still have it today if I was just willing to admit once again I was responsible for his reactions and behavior.

I'm sorry you suffered years of abuse. No one should have to go through that. But you did not cause the abuse. No one is responsible for another persons reactions or behavior or choices or actions. Ever. Think about your rape-woman's clothing analogy.
Maybe what is needed is a thread on abuse with a link. Could that be recommended?

I doubt very much that I would have acknowledged abuse without DB and examining my lack of boundaries. This was my first experience of it too.

It was setting boundaries and being encouraged to do so which led me to finally say "I will not be abused".

Z has a very valid view here, sometimes (but not always) it is another poster who points out abuse. In my case both Sandi spoke and Gg (green grass), was brave enough to discuss her experience and then other posters spotted it. I really do believe without brave posters reaching an understanding of abuse, especially emotional abuse or verbal abuse and who mention it that dynamic remains undiscussed in sitches.

After my experience I do truly believe we have a responsibility to be open about this and to call it when we see it. Even on DB threads.

linda, whilst the person abused did not cause it, they are caught in a dynamic that keeps them doubting their experience. it's hard to acknowledge the abuse to yourself, and it takes a great deal of support and introspection to recognise it and change it. I can attest to that, and my journey into abuse was short and sharp. I recorded it and I would always encourage documentation to reground the abused person, to use as a reference when we doubt our reality. We are survivors in recovery when we do this. There is an element of Stockholm Syndrome iespecially when the soothing phase of the abuse cycle starts.

That is why DB is doing what matters and changing what can be changed. Doing that which works. DB an abuser, a compulsive or an addict is unlikely to change the abuser, compulsive or addict. Or to change their R. I say unlikely but not impossible. DB an MLCer can be very different.

The primary of goal of an abuser is to control not to twist for freedom, it is core to the abuser to control, abuse is that tool. My experience of MLC is limited but it seems that abuse is not the core aim of an MLCer. Abuse is a by product of MLC behaviour not its driver. Compulsives and addicts control to continue the addiction. it is the primary driver.

I have to admit it is very hard to admit that I have been abused, and even now I occasionally doubt the reality of it, until I listen or read my own experience.

I was diagnosed as non codependent, I did not enable my abuser. The more I stood the worse the abuse got, some DB techniques intensified the abuse but that is the thing which eventually caused the intervention.

Z is a very brave young woman and her journey of discovery is a very important series of threads. I commend her for her courage and determination.

V

Originally Posted By: Vanilla
Maybe what is needed is a thread on abuse with a link. Could that be recommended?

Absolutely.

I was also thinking about creating a resource thread for newcomers similar to what we did in the MLC forum.

However I need suggestions for threads(links) or new threads created.

I suggest that V and Zelda might want to create a thread on this subject.
I am happy to put some work into this.

To echo what V said, ppl do terrible hurtful things to each other. I certainly must have reached the end of my rope and said and done things that would qualify as emotional abuse (screaming banshee anyone?)

Sometimed we are hurt bc these actions are out of a partners selfishness, and sometimes we hurt others out of our selfishness, frustration or flashes of anger. It's human and we feel bad.

Abuse it is not that and there is a 'tool' at work - one that replaces healthy tools - where an abuser systematically degrades, gaslights, isolates and intimidates their partner. That is the behavior I think we need to include a differentiate from depression and MLC, infidelity. It is a very targeted hurt where someone comes into your space, past healthy boundaries.

As I look back at the last seven months, I do wish that there had been something on this forum that said:

"Being faced with losing your love, dreams and partner is incredibly painful. Whether the marriage was healthy or it wasn't. You can be the first to make it healthy, and yourself healthy through DR, but now is a good time to take stock of not only your role and behaviors, but your partners' as well, and the general dynamic of your M.

If you have been dealing with abusive behavior, it is tempting to minimize it along feelings of longing and empathy for your partner, who may have you convinced he/she is a victim.
(Insert list of red flags, abusive definition, behaviors.)

Know that you did not cause any of this, and therefore you cannot control it, reverse it, or fix it. It is possible to change these behaviors if an abuser is genuinely interested in making those changes. Persuading them and educating them may help in the short term, along with drawing boundaries for yourself, but these are rarely lasting changes unless the abuser is personally motivated.

Abuse escalates. These situations never start with a punch on the first date, or even first year together.

If you see these red flags or patterns, you may be tempted to think that your partner is not really an abuser because of all of their other wonderful qualities. However, this does not change the fact that you have recognized some very unhealthy ways your partner controls and hurts you. Personal motivation to change on behalf of the abuser and professional counseling is the only thing that can reverse this behavior. Changes you make through DR may draw your abuser back to you and may temporarily change patterns. But sooner or later, an abusive personality will use the tools they know best. Some people can grow, but the important thing is your safety until trust can be re established.

Divorce Busting and Divorce Remedy is for you at this point. We can all grow and become our best, and learn to be deeply considerate of our partners!

If any of these red flags looked familiar, please do not minimize your experience, make excuses for it, or blame yourself, or imagine how things will be different if you are to change your behavior. Seek the help of a professional and begin examining your boundaries and why you have endured a relationship with this dynamic."
-------/-

Would I have read this and gone on any different journey? Idk. I remember when I found this site I read it religiously, all the articles. I hoped so fiercely, this man was my soul mate. I loved him and would have done anything to get him back. I remember being willing to compassionately forgive my STBX for flipping me off, telling me to F off, telling me I was this, that, screaming at me, incapable of understanding him...all these things that I first kicked him out of the house for...I thought yes, "he is teething."

I think if we can differentiate abuse from teething, that could be helpful. I had five years of emails, articles I'd sent him about his sbusive ways. Begging him to stop treating me that way, recognize it. Telling him I wouldn't stand for it. So it got more subtle, or longer periods in between. But when I came here, I was so ready to save my M the last thing I wanted to say was, hey I dodged a bullet, good riddance!

I said, he is teething, omg, I can see why he did all that! I can change the dance! None of us want to believe we are being abused and asking for it to come back. Denial is a huge factor. Until someone has been through it, I imsgine it sounds crazy.
Originally Posted By: Zelda09
when I came here, I was so ready to save my M the last thing I wanted to say was, hey I dodged a bullet, good riddance!

So do you really think that anything we said would have changed your mind?

I feel like DB worked for you - just the way it is suppose to.
Maybe you didnt totally understand it, however I really doubt anything anyone would say or write would have changed YOU, until YOU were ready to change!

Their is a process here and if you leave out any steps it just sends you back to the start to reaccomp[lish what you skipped.

JMHO!
Cadet, with all due respect…

There are forums here on infidelity, depression, MLC. Abusive marriages does not deserve its place here?

This would have been helpful to me. Someghing, anywhere on this board to say sometimes DR is not enough and you're in over your head. What I have been stubborn? Perhaps. There is also a good possibility that I might have considered that abuse was a factor in my relationship. That DB does not Cure all. I may have been able to talk to a different kind of veteran who understood, and I may have sought help and called the thing by the right name earlier.

I daresay that Michelle wiener Davis would not advocate for someone DBing themselves back in an abusive situation as part of her process.

Maybe there is a bat signal you can send out to her.
Originally Posted By: Zelda09
Cadet, with all due respect…

There are forums here on infidelity, depression, MLC. Abusive marriages does not deserve its place here?

This would have been helpful to me. Someghing, anywhere on this board to say sometimes DR is not enough and you're in over your head. What I have been stubborn? Perhaps. There is also a good possibility that I might have considered that abuse was a factor in my relationship. That DB does not Cure all. I may have been able to talk to a different kind of veteran who understood, and I may have sought help and called the thing by the right name earlier.

I daresay that Michelle wiener Davis would not advocate for someone DBing themselves back in an abusive situation as part of her process.

Maybe there is a bat signal you can send out to her.

First of all I would submit that most people on the MLC forum are in abusive marriages.

I am not trying to give you a hard time and I do believe that MWD has a section in the books about not remaining in an abusive marriage.

The main purpose of this forum is to sell coaching and MWD materials, IMHO.
So if a DB Coach was helping you then I believe that they would try to get your focus on to YOU.
Certainly my main objective is to try to help people focus on themselves as that is really what DB is all about.
Controlling the only person that we have any power over.

Sorry I do not have any bat signals available to me and I have never met MWD.
TBH she has not posted here in many years and really this forum is not her focus.

We are a peer to peer group and none of us are paid professionals, but volunteers that are paying forward the gifts that have been given to us.

In my humble opinion.
^^^
I was thinking the same thing as fas as MLC and abusive marriages.

As far as the DBing/abusive relationship angle. I do think its set up very good to handle it, I do recal there is a part in the book where MWD actually says not to go back into that type of enviornment. Biblacly speaking even the church states one should remove and protect themselves and pray the S changes.

If you detach, GAL, 180 for you, are you not healing? Is that not the ultimate goal to heal and become self dependent rather than to feel obligated like a moth to the flame of an abusive relationship?

Alot of the MLCrs are in this type of situation and if you read enough ... there is a point where the power becomes theirs and they choose to either stand for the M and wait for the WAS to change, or they drop the rope and move on.

Not taking away from what you have gone through but I personally feel the process here, if followed, can easily save a person in any type of relationship by giving them the tools and they become independent regardless of the spouse and their actions.
Guys,

All crows are black, but not all blackbirds are crows.

Not all abusive situations are couched under MLC.

If this is truly a peer to peer support group, I think there needs to be a place for people to address abuse as abuse. With people that have been there, or have professional training in it. DR still applies.

Obviously this started off as a place to Sell books and Hope. Stand for your marriage. Be your best self. They will come around. I drank the Kool-Aid, it was very nice, and my STBX came around. I wish to God he hadn't because it was worse than ever.

But this should not threaten the status quo around here to let it be said that no one advocates for staying in a marriage like this. Just because it sounds obvious to you, doesn't mean it isn't something that can be put in big bold letters around here - somewhere. This is my whole point you seem to be missing - at time of grief, it is very easy for someone to get caught up in the idea that they can and should stay in this kind of marriage. And, I can't find a single spot in this board where this topic is even addressed. Sex starved marriages and all the rest, but nothing on the fact that some marriages are unhealthy and flat out dangerous.

I appreciate the fact that you guys have so many wonderful opinions on MLC, codependency, etc - but have you lived in a relationship like this? I can think of Sherman, TLEE, Vanilla, GGrass that can probably add a lot to this subject.

Nothing I am suggesting takes anything away from divorce Busting, divorce remedy, or all those wonderful things that help us survive a divorce.
Originally Posted By: Zelda
If this is truly a peer to peer support group, I think there needs to be a place for people to address abuse as abuse. With people that have been there, or have professional training in it. DR still applies.

Originally Posted By: Cadet
I suggest that V and Zelda might want to create a thread on this subject.

It's been my experience that abuse is hard for the abusee to recognize. My ex treated me just like yours did you Zelda, for 38 years ("flipping me off, telling me to F off, telling me I was this, that, screaming at me, incapable of understanding him"). It was not until he REALLY whacked out and went into a mid life crisis and I came to this forum for help, that other posters compassionately helped me to recognize this was abuse. I sort of figured it was all my fault and tried to be be better, but did not know it was abuse because he never struck me and I thought I deserved it. DBing helped me learn to set boundaries, and now I am happily divorced and whole.

A thread on how to recognize abuse and how to deal with it is an awesome idea. Cadet already invited you to start one smile
PS I think the quote you posted above would be a great way to start the thread!
I can certainly add a few of things I've learned about Cluster B personality disorders.

Cluster B is called the dramatic, emotional, and erratic cluster.
  • Antisocial personality disorder: a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others, lack of empathy, bloated self-image, manipulative and impulsive behavior.
  • Borderline personality disorder: pervasive pattern of instability in relationships, self-image, identity, behavior and affects often leading to self-harm and impulsivity.
  • Histrionic personality disorder: pervasive pattern of attention-seeking behavior and excessive emotions.
  • Narcissistic personality disorder: a pervasive pattern of grandiosity, need for admiration, and a lack of empathy.


Disorders in this cluster share problems with impulse control and emotional regulation.
This is a very interesting discussion Cadet.

MLC abuse strikes me as situational. The individual is transiting a life crisis and as a consequences exhibits abusive behaviour. Most often once the MLC abates the abuse is gone.

The type of abuse that I experienced is the result of a controlling personality and that is unlikely to ever change. These types of Abusers move from one victim to another. This is a control issue not a crisis issue.

It occurs as a result of personality not situational. It is very hard for this type of abuser to change. They abuse because it achieves the result they need, control. They generally charm then abuse and repeat this cycle.

There are several levels of abusive behaviour and with this type of abuser there is escalation as they require more control. It is not always physical abuse but there is a definitive cycle. With a consistent escalation. It is deliberate and patterned. It repeats and it is predictable. It doesn't start suddenly in midlife, it begins from childhood and is lifelong. These abuses blame those they abuse and it is in their interest to have a source of narcissist supply. In other words the abuse makes the abuser feel good and better about themselves. When thwarted the abuser will often lash or intimidate to get what they need. They may even have a midlife crisis as well!

Abusers often use alcohol as a choice to excuse abuse, that too is control. They may also have addictions, and self control issues.

DB is many things, in and of itself it is that which works, providing and giving access to resources to assist in that growth, personal development and to repair marriage and relationships. It has it's philosophy and club rules. I agree Cadet that it is a Peer to Peer group, with the wisdom of crowds.

There are some situations, abuse, compulsion and addiction that require additional resources extra to DB. Abuse counselling is available but often that requires an initial acknowledgement of the abuse. A recognition of it in the sitch is essential, either by self discovery or by uncovering it through the process of DB and the discussions that follow. For me that was very traumatic and dramatic.

I am sure that with hindsight this is clear. There is a chain process through which we in peer to peer patterning help each other. I do read MLC threads and rarely do I see this escalation and pattern abuse.

Do I see abuse in many MLC sitches? Yes, I do, situational abuse, MLC starts and abuse begins, some awful behaviours too, denial of As, ranting, spewing and lying. This behaviour has a starting point and in many cases a finishing point. The type of abuse I experienced and I believe Z was also subject is not situational. These abuses will not have an end there is no crisis to be over. This is a personality issue. It traumatises and is hard to escape from. In fact my family and friends are truly relieved my M is over, in some cases warning me to be sure to protect myself in case there is revenge.

Sadly this is where I find myself, repairing myself and my very damaged sitch. It may take years to do this. The abuser feels justified in his abuse in his words 'I deserved it', and he 'doesn't care'. There is no conflict in the abuser, this wasn't a loving H who had a crisis. This was an abuser who targeted me and will go on to target another. Likely behaving in the same way. He certainly abused before.

Applying DB made the abuse much worse as it represents lack of control to the abuser. That applies to almost all techniques. The abuser enjoys the distress and confusion of the abused as it represents more control. So in that sense DB did work as it created so much distress that the abuse became evident even to me.

I need DB and I want to recover, this recovery is only just beginning. It may take many years to rebuild from the trauma and I need every tool I need. I for one am prepared to pay it forward. Like Z am prepared to work with this. But I am no vet, and I am very new in recovery, I haven't pieced and my M is truly defunct. I am in love with an abuser and traumatised by the abuse.

Several times other posters have asked me to examine sitches where there is clear abuse and/or addiction. In Z case, Susanna and Ralliced for AHW? There are several posters here who are recovering from addiction and repairing their R, DBing as LBS, they too deserve all the help and support they can.

MLC is a specific condition with its own patterns with cheese less tunnels and replay. The abusers we discuss here know where the cheese is and will do everything to get it. They are not in cheese less tunnels they have all the cheese and intend to keep it all. They take away another's cheese. They don't like the WAS to walk away because they loose control of the cheese. They will keep going until they need to move on to the next source of cheese.

As Z says living in this abusive type of R is trauma and destruction.

Z we are hijacking your thread with this. Are you willing to start a thread, identifying abuse in R and how DB can be positive in recovery and repair?

V



Its a tough subject. But I'm thinking that giving search terms would make the most amount of sense... So when someone recognizes a DBer with facing abuse they could be steered to the thread and that could point them to other resources to help them understand/deal with what they're facing.

I know my situation happened gradually over time and that it is repetitive with the STBXW. She's done it all her life and will continue to do it. I don't think I'd have recognized the abuse when it started... it was subtle. Blatant by the time things were over though.
I just wanted to say Zelda, that I hear you and what you're trying to say.

Abuse is one of those things, that it doesn't mean the same thing for everyone. Abuse covers a broad spectrum. And that [censored] because there isn't a one size fits all approach.

AT the beginning of my sitch, I wouldn't have classified my H's anger towards me as abuse. I just thought it was years of pent up [censored] finally coming out. It didn't hit me until I was talking in a (rare) joint counseling session with him that what he was doing to me was verbally abusive and that it had to stop. Being called out like that shook H to the core -- and it caused him to exam a lot of things. It eventually lead to him getting help and as a result, receiving a mental illness diagnosis.

And I'm left with the question - was the verbal abuse a symptom of the illness triggering, or was it always there? I don't know. I don't know if I will ever know. *shrugs*

In my case, the abuse, in some cosmic effed up way -- helped. Not me. But rather my Husband. And I would like to believe that he's going to be better later down the road for the discovery of it.


I think perhaps developing a link to recognizing signs of abuse (mental, physical, verbal, controlling, etc) can be extremely helpful -- especially if the new people take the time to read the links.

Just my .02.

---

I think this is a great topic to think tank and explore, as a group.
Originally Posted By: Sherman333
Cluster B is called the dramatic, emotional, and erratic cluster.
  • Antisocial personality disorder: a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others, lack of empathy, bloated self-image, manipulative and impulsive behavior.
  • Borderline personality disorder: pervasive pattern of instability in relationships, self-image, identity, behavior and affects often leading to self-harm and impulsivity.
  • Histrionic personality disorder: pervasive pattern of attention-seeking behavior and excessive emotions.
  • Narcissistic personality disorder: a pervasive pattern of grandiosity, need for admiration, and a lack of empathy.

First of all MLC is known to mimic all of the above disorders and I or other veterans on the MLC forum, have seen posters whose spouses have these traits.

Originally Posted By: Vanilla
MLC abuse strikes me as situational. The individual is transiting a life crisis and as a consequences exhibits abusive behaviour. Most often once the MLC abates the abuse is gone.
And how are we as posters or vets suppose to know this?

Originally Posted By: Vanilla
The type of abuse that I experienced is the result of a controlling personality and that is unlikely to ever change. These types of Abusers move from one victim to another. This is a control issue not a crisis issue

CONTROL is a frequent subject within MLC and personality disorders.

Originally Posted By: Vanilla
It occurs as a result of personality not situational. It is very hard for this type of abuser to change. They abuse because it achieves the result they need, control. They generally charm then abuse and repeat this cycle.

There are several levels of abusive behaviour and with this type of abuser there is escalation as they require more control. It is not always physical abuse but there is a definitive cycle. With a consistent escalation. It is deliberate and patterned. It repeats and it is predictable. It doesn't start suddenly in midlife, it begins from childhood and is lifelong. These abuses blame those they abuse and it is in their interest to have a source of narcissist supply. In other words the abuse makes the abuser feel good and better about themselves. When thwarted the abuser will often lash or intimidate to get what they need. They may even have a midlife crisis as well!

Abusers often use alcohol as a choice to excuse abuse, that too is control. They may also have addictions, and self control issues.

DB is many things, in and of itself it is that which works, providing and giving access to resources to assist in that growth, personal development and to repair marriage and relationships. It has it's philosophy and club rules. I agree Cadet that it is a Peer to Peer group, with the wisdom of crowds.

There are some situations, abuse, compulsion and addiction that require additional resources extra to DB. Abuse counselling is available but often that requires an initial acknowledgement of the abuse. A recognition of it in the sitch is essential, either by self discovery or by uncovering it through the process of DB and the discussions that follow. For me that was very traumatic and dramatic.

I am sure that with hindsight this is clear. There is a chain process through which we in peer to peer patterning help each other. I do read MLC threads and rarely do I see this escalation and pattern abuse.

Do I see abuse in many MLC sitches? Yes, I do, situational abuse, MLC starts and abuse begins, some awful behaviours too, denial of As, ranting, spewing and lying. This behaviour has a starting point and in many cases a finishing point. The type of abuse I experienced and I believe Z was also subject is not situational. These abuses will not have an end there is no crisis to be over. This is a personality issue. It traumatises and is hard to escape from. In fact my family and friends are truly relieved my M is over, in some cases warning me to be sure to protect myself in case there is revenge.

Sadly this is where I find myself, repairing myself and my very damaged sitch. It may take years to do this. The abuser feels justified in his abuse in his words 'I deserved it', and he 'doesn't care'. There is no conflict in the abuser, this wasn't a loving H who had a crisis. This was an abuser who targeted me and will go on to target another. Likely behaving in the same way. He certainly abused before.

Applying DB made the abuse much worse as it represents lack of control to the abuser. That applies to almost all techniques. The abuser enjoys the distress and confusion of the abused as it represents more control. So in that sense DB did work as it created so much distress that the abuse became evident even to me.

I need DB and I want to recover, this recovery is only just beginning. It may take many years to rebuild from the trauma and I need every tool I need. I for one am prepared to pay it forward. Like Z am prepared to work with this. But I am no vet, and I am very new in recovery, I haven't pieced and my M is truly defunct. I am in love with an abuser and traumatised by the abuse.

Several times other posters have asked me to examine sitches where there is clear abuse and/or addiction. In Z case, Susanna and Ralliced for AHW? There are several posters here who are recovering from addiction and repairing their R, DBing as LBS, they too deserve all the help and support they can.

MLC is a specific condition with its own patterns with cheese less tunnels and replay. The abusers we discuss here know where the cheese is and will do everything to get it. They are not in cheese less tunnels they have all the cheese and intend to keep it all. They take away another's cheese. They don't like the WAS to walk away because they loose control of the cheese. They will keep going until they need to move on to the next source of cheese.

As Z says living in this abusive type of R is trauma and destruction.

I believe midlife in general heightens problems that all people have, and your body attack the weakest area that it can find.
So an abuser that enters midlife will have worse abusive attributes, an addict will become more addicted, and so on.
My mother was bipolar and her disease went off the rails in midlife.
Depressive people can have the same thing, all that being said I can not see how we can do anything other than work on ourselves.
I see codependent, conflict avoiding, fixers as most LBS.
This leads into a fertile ground for someone to create abusive behavior.

I understand V your point of view and my question is would you have recognized an abuser before you came to DB?

If you were to ever get in another relationship would you recognize an abuser?

What if it was a different type of abuse?
Feel free to hijack, I did not start this thread to discuss my situation personally.

I think there are some reliable sources on the web, which detail warning signs and signs of verbal abuse, physical abuse, emotional. It may be helpful to put it all in black-and-white, like a cheat sheet. It is always so clear in hindsight, and excusable in the moment.

Especially if it can be attributed to anything else! Like teasing, like MLC, the list goes on. When you love someone, you wanted to be fixable, you wanted to be anything else.

At the end of the day, it does not matter if it is personality disorders, mental illness, any number of things, that once someone recognizes the signs are there, it will still require a lot of work with a professional, and a strong support system.
Cadet,

would I have recognised an abuser before I came to DB?

The answer is yes, but recognising your H is a controlling abuser is another issue. It became very clear within a short space of time. I nearly walked after 6 months, I was not wayward but decided to stand as a result of DB. The abuse escalated to quite dangerous and threatening levels.

If I was in another R would I know?

absolutely.

What if it was a different type of abuse.

This type of abuse is about control that is the key factor to recognise. I would absolutely know this, one can not but know it. Whatever it's roots. It is very different indeed.


I originally posted this on thread 12 page 4 after seeking many sources of help to modify my own behaviour to improve the R, as the lower levelsof abuse were countered H escalated at this stage level 4 was a daily event. i had been effective in dealing with levels 1 to 3 . H had started some level 6 behaviour that of attack and intimidation. At that point I had not been to the police but I had recorded the rants etc. the stronger the boundaries I set, the firmer I enforced the higher the level of abuse. The abuse was also public H expected everyone to agree with him. Eventually I had VSO and contact with an abuse recognition program called the Freedom Program. This is UK initiative and is available on line. it is available for the abuser and the target. The purple remarks were on thread 9 and the red on thread 12.


_________________________________________________________
originally posted on thread 9, I am struggling to find ways of dealing with Verbal Abuse.

The exercise is in a book which describes abusive communications, so I am journaling my responses here.

These were Vs original thoughts but actually did not really know if I was correct at the time I wrote it.

These have been inserted from two or three sources and after discussion with VSO. I need practice sessions but I will keep adding as I find responses work or not!.

Identify the abuses in your R and prevents you from being your authentic self. (V added the scoring: I like scores)

On a scale of 1 to 10 identify how you enforce your boundaries.

Blaming Level 1 abuse : refusal of responsibility
This is the most frequent abuse tactic, intended to control, put down or make another responsible.
How much do you accept blame in your R?
H=3, V=2
V no longer allows H to blame her, if she is in the wrong she apologises and corrects or atones (12 step 8). No longer works for H.

Response that is best : "Stop accusing and blaming me immediately." "stop it!" "I do not want to hear that again." "You are talking to someone you should respect." " Do not say that in that way."

No justification, these are stories made up by H about my motives. Explaining or justifying continues the abuse cycle. If the criticism is valid that can be acknowledged later. This is like throwing a rock through a window, stopping the thrower from doing more damage.



Name calling Level 2 abuse: control
Insulting and bullying.
How much do you use this tactic and accept it in your R?
H=3, V=1
V walks away now, screaming banshee used to return insult for insult. No more, enormous progress on this one.

Best response: "Stop that, do not call me names, ever." "I do not want to hear you call me names again ever." "This is inappropriate."

Raging abusive anger/aggression Intimidation Level 6 abuse: attack
Designed to intimidate and control.
How much anger is in your R?
H=4 V=2
V gets annoyed but parks it. H has calmed down a lot since this has happened. H used to use this to get his own way.

According to VSO, the most dangerous of all. Get away immediately and if necessary with evasion. Just leave.

If slight control " Stop, please talk to me calmly." " Do not raise your voice to me."
Pay no attention to the words, look at the tone and posture.
If threatened : "Stop threatening me." "I do not want to hear this." " Leave me alone." " I am leaving now."


Covert aggressive manipulation Level 4 abuse: unexpected
Different from passive aggression. A power play using charm, implied reward, compliments, suggested punishment or withholding, helplessness, guilt, shame,self-depreciation, empty apology or playing victim. A manipulator may appear non aggressive and act aggrieved. Response is guilt, defensive confusion and capitulation.
How active is this component in your R?
H=10 V=2
This is the new H playbook, dropped the other tactic and this is the new and latest leading. V is often not observant enough to notice and she wants to believe H.

Counter measures need investigating.

Silent treatment, be matter of fact "I am very bored with this and am going to leave."

Sit with headphones More work needed on this, I still do not fully understand the best way to deal with it.


Ordering level 3 abuse: threats
Instead of requests instructing, treating another like a 'slave'
How much ordering or instruction is in your R?
H=1, V= 0
This just does not work with V although H would try it.

Best answer "who are you ordering about?", "please ask nicely" or "I make my own decisions". If uses we as in "we are going" then response is "that is not what I had in mind".

Judging and criticising Level 1 abuse: lack of responsibility
Evaluating, giving unwanted advice, and telling others what they 'should do'?
How much criticism and judgement do you accept to keep your R?
H=4, V=7
V is very sensitive to H criticisms although she does not react. She is also likely to impute the wrong motives every time to H. That is judgement but she does not criticise much to H directly. H judges everyone and everything, nothing is good enough for H. H expects perfection. V finds this rather amusing.

Needs work by V, V needs to find more that H is doing right. V also sits in judgement and criticises herself too much. She is kinder to others even H than she is to V.

These have been real blows to V self esteem. Constant and endless Defining another is real boundary infringement.

Suggested responses "do you hear yourself" "stop judging me" "cut that out, enough already" "that is not acceptable" "nonsense" " keep your views to yourself" "that is my business" " that is not your concern, it is mine" then disengage, further discussion promotes further abuse.


Play, jokes, sarcasm and teasing Level 1 abuse: denial
Wit, ironic, overt praise and always painful to the recipient. Concealed Judgement.
How much smiling judgement do you endure in your R?
H=8, V=2
H when called on his words or behaviour often says "it is a joke, where is your sense of humour?". Very hard to counter,
V needs more techniques to counter this. Considering more IC in March.

This is a I am better than you or at your expense and is very immature. Do try to explain what is unfunny or inappropriate or ask why the 'joke' was said . Do not laugh or wonder about the maturity.

Best response: " I wonder now you have said that, put me down, interrupted me, do you feel more important? I want you to think about it" then disengage. " This conversation is over" or "I will get back to you on that".


Opposing Level 1 abuse: lack of responsibility
Treats as adversary and argues against anything, perceptions, opinions, thoughts and feelings. Says "no" outright without discussion closing down constructive conversation.
How much opposing is in your R?
H=6, V=2
H gets very few requests from V, but not really one of H characteristics. H LL is Acts of Service.
V now has a tendency to say no to H almost without thinking and this needs review

Counters feelings or perceptions, deliberately misconstrues, refutes that you have said something. Best response is "stop", "let me repeat my statement".

Do not explain the view or this too will be countered, no arging, "I do not see it that way" "I have a right to my own views". "Hold it, can you repeat that or write it down". "Stop countering me". "As you say". Then leave.


Blocking and diverting Level 1 abuse: denial
Abort conversations, make accusations and effectively say "shut up"
How often is discussion closed down in your R?
H=4, V=1
V talks too much sometimes but has had to learn the difference between blocking, closing and evading. parking is V choice of response. H choice expression "do not go there" but V defers and parks and often the need to boundary enforce is needed. Does not happen very often these days. Much better on this.

This is thwarting in the worst way. Keep repeating the request (fogging) (An answer which is "no" or "I do not know " is neither blocking nor diverting.)

Instead say " you are creating a diversion" and "if you do not know then I reserve the right to find out".


Discounting Trivialising and belittling Level 1 abuse: denial
Minimising or trivialising feelings, thoughts or experience. Suggests feelings are not valid.
How often are thoughts, feelings or experience discounted in your R?
H=3, V=1
Simply does not work and therefore not used by either H or V.

Devalues the self. "I certainly do not feel supported when I hear this" "I have heard all I need to hear".

Undermining and interrupting Level 4 abuse: accusing then criticising
Undermining with statements such as "you do not know what you are talking about" speaking on another's behalf without permission
How much are undermining and interrupting evident in your R?
H=8, V=9
Oh yes a big one this, V wants to do more work on this as H is vulnerable in the work environment. V can be interrupting others at work.
V has identified a big issue to work on. However this is not as evident in her personal relationship now, but is a work issue.

This is cruel and covert. "I do not like your attitude" "that was low" " stop, cut that out" "this is the opposite of fun" .

Lying, forgetting and denying Level 1 abuse denial of responsibility
Concious lying is manipulation. Addicts and compulsives may deny agreements or promises, a conversation took place, even prior abuse. They may ever declare love and caring. Crazy making, referred to as 'gas lighting' . Particularly evident in gambling and hidden stages of addiction. Can even mean lying by omission.
Are you aware of lying and denying in your R?
H=10, V=1
As far as V is concerned H is a master at this, V tends not to believe anything that H says without independent verification. H has even lied at GA openly, not disclosing the length of time he has been gambling. Nothing V can do on this but try to separate the wheat from the chaff. Perhaps identifying areas where H may not lie and giving more trust. In 12 steps we learn that love is possible without trust.

Do not believe the denial. Do not say how this hurts frightens or disturbs you. Never try to explain or understand why the lie etc has occurred. No anger, use of authority will help, no try to explain. V did not make H anything, "mad" "hurt" "abandoned" or any other thing. Best response "this is crazy making", "stop it", "I do not believe you. Do not let this happen again"

there is one form of abuse that is not in the above. that is withholding which is a level 5 form of abuse. it is very irrational, no fight, no argument, and no anger. A refusal to respond, no contact whilst active in a R. Whilst carrying on conversations with friends, discover plans only through friends. This is shunning and distain could be evidence of an A. Exceedingly toxic.

Apologies for the long post but I wanted to gather my thoughts all together in one post.

V

Edited to remove quotes from V for readability - hopefully that is OK - Cadet
I was unable to modify in time. My high scores in the previous post are because I was effectively agreeing with H and abusing myself. Not because I was directing those behaviours towards H.

V
Cadet

I am musing and thinking on this question:

And how are we posters or vets supposed to know?

Looking to organise my thoughts off line.

Z I was going to suggest we plan to open our new thread on Saturday, if that's ok with you?

V
Originally Posted By: Vanilla
Cadet

I am musing and thinking on this question:

And how are we posters or vets supposed to know?

Looking to organise my thoughts off line.

Z I was going to suggest we plan to open our new thread on Saturday, if that's ok with you?

V


Sounds good to me.

I see nothing wrong with us discussing this in a useful help thread.

I do think that there was some wisdom here though
Originally Posted By: job
Zelda and Cadet,

Before anything is posted on the subject of abuse in the marriage, I suggest that it be run by Michelle. After all, she created the forum, wrote the books, has coaching sessions, etc. She may very well have something more specific that can be placed on her introduction page of this site, which would make more sense then adding a statement just on the Welcome Page that Cadet created.

Just my two cents.


I keep hoping that Job will come back and contribute to your thread as she has a wealth of knowledge that I trust and value.

I am not sure we will be able to convince Michelle to contribute which is my only concern about the above quote.
So my suggestion is we look for information that she has already written on the subject.
Her most recent writings are on her blog, facebook and twitter.
Cadet

Agreed, I for one will need guidance and Help from you, I am thinking two threads eventually. A discussion one initially then a Wonka style cheat sheet with the best bits, maybe a call to Wonka for her assistance on technique, we can but ask.

I agree much useful stuff already and some of this will be very key to quote and transfer. We can also have links to examples of abuse if other posters agree to it and add the links. I am comfortable with using some of the verbal abuse examples from my thread. Being open about this has been very important to me in my recovery.

Although I confess to being a little apprehensive because of my skill shortage.

V
Cadet

Cadet, sorry fat finger syndrome, posted too soon, ran out of time

Whether MDW contributes is her choice, good if she will. Everything we are doing is developing another aspect of DB discussion an added dimension, that will be useful to some.

The board isn't an abuse board, when I first came here I was confused because I couldn't read any posts from PWAS who like I was were in abuse situations. I could see LBS behaving in ways that would drive their PWAS away but not for PWAS who wished to stand. Those that appeared were sometimes criticised for wanting to walk. That was tough to read and in fact someone struggling with wanting to walk also needs guidance.

Sandi developed the concept of the WS as opposed to the WAW a great new tool was available. I perceived that suddenly within the board the number of PWAS rose, I actually took a milestone poll at one stage in Newcombers. I also note that posters are staying longer, but would love to see the stats on that as that is anecdotal.

This proposed thread is a further tool, in IRL additional resources are needed both for an abuser and the target., and an idicator in how to access that is also helpful. A good start in that area is identifying risk. How good that is will depend on the originators and the quality of the material on it, important enough that guidance is important in it. I suspect like all threads it will have a life of its own and need strength to get back on topic!

Addiction and compulsion are further twists to the abuse drama. As you know I believe in the twelve steps process, so there is much to think about.

Thank you Z for permission to hijack your thread.

V
Originally Posted By: Vanilla
I first came here I was confused because I couldn't read any posts from PWAS who like I was were in abuse situations.

PWAS = Possible walk away spouse ?
Sorry I don't know what that means, the abbreviation that is?

Doing some searching here is one thing I found from MWD
Originally Posted By: Michele Weiner Davis
In fact, in extreme cases, certain relationships are better off terminated for the health and well being of everyone involved. This book will also address these exceptional situations. However, most people considering divorce do not fall into these extreme categories.
http://divorcebusting.com/sb_divorce_busting.htm
Posted By: job Re: Abuse from a partner is not fixed through DR - 06/11/15 12:48 PM
Cadet,
Once the new thread has been created, will it remain here in Newcomer's or will it become a separate forum, whereby it can be viewed and posters can click on that particular forum? I think it warrants it's own forum, i.e., like Newcomers, MLC, etc....but that's my opinion.

Here are some of the abuse topics that may and should be discussed:

1. Verbal Abuse
2. Emotional Abuse (social isolation and gaslighting would fall under this category)
3. Physical Abuse
4. Psychological Abuse
5. Sexual Abuse
6. Financial Abuse
7. Digital Abuse
8. Stalking (yes, it's a form abuse, especially when a relationship ends the one party can't accept that it's over and becomes obsessed w/the other party).

When the new thread and/or forum is set up, I will be more than happy to post the information that I have on all of the above topics. I would suggest that each topic have its own thread so that people will have an easy reference to each topic.
I agree this is not an abuse forum. I wouldn't recommend volumes of data, but rather enough for someone to understand the basic differences and some pointers on where to seek additional help.

Just thought I'd add my reactions to these questions...
would I have recognised an abuser before I came to DB?
No. In hindsight I was preprimed from childhood and my mother to not question some things... not anymore.

If I was in another R would I know?
Now... yes. I can see a lot of the signs.

What if it was a different type of abuse.
If it's controlling, then yes.

And how are we as posters or vets suppose to know this?
You won't and that's ok. See my 1st point on this post. If it seems to be more than "normal" stuff, then suggest the person read the thread. If it strikes a chord with them, they'll follow-it. Or not.

Most of of us begin to wake up to the facts after a while (I'd hope).

Even for a MLC, recognizing what's abusive and setting a boundary is a good thing regardless. Knowing what's crossing the line can make a huge difference.

In some cases (like mine) it happened so gradually over time that I didn't fully catch on until it blew up. But I still knew something was wrong.
Posted By: job Re: Abuse from a partner is not fixed through DR - 06/11/15 05:57 PM
Sherman,
I checked out another forum today and a poster had some red flags going up which involved possible abuse. It was suggested to this poster that they look up domestic violence - cycle of abuse.

We may see the red flags more clearly for many of the posters because we aren't close to their respective situations and we can suggest that they do some internet searching of certain subjects, or at least point them in the right direction, but to actually post links, I'm not sure we will be allowed to do this. Again, it's something that will need to be run by the powers to be, as many of us, along the way, have posted links before and have had our hands smacked for doing so. We'll see how this unfolds in the next day or so. I'm sure we'll have some answers soon.
Quote:
but to actually post links, I'm not sure we will be allowed to do this.

I stick with the current rules. You only post links to the relevant thread here on this forum.

Quote:
It was suggested to this poster that they look up domestic violence - cycle of abuse.

Exactly. Suggest they google/search certain terms.

But have the basic information that points them in the right direction here on this forum. There are other places to find a lot more information.

Doing it this way stays within the current guidelines and the spirit of this board (as I see it).
Sherman, I agree wholeheartedly.

When I came here, I was also searching other websites for information about axis II, abuse...I knew for a long time my STBX was crossing lines but I guess I did not want to think of him as an 'abuser.' I wanted to think I could do something about it DR, or he didn't know any better and that's why he treated me the way he did.

Even when Mozza and Vanilla used that term, I rejected it. Still remember finding out he'd contacted a girlfriend directly and told her to stay away from me (shudder). That's what it took to be able to say this is an abusive person.

I think a forum/thread here addressing some of this can resonate like you said, at least be a starting point. Even Vanilla said she couldn't find anyone talking about it.

And that alone has a way of making someone feel alone.
PWAS=potential walk away spouse

POW= potential OW

My STBXH was busy indeed an OW, plus a POW or two, like having a queen and an heir and a spare in waiting. But of course they were all in my mind even the fishwife, the scuzzy and the tramp.

V
Originally Posted By: Vanilla
PWAS=potential walk away spouse

POW= potential OW

Thanks - I added these to the abbreviation list at the top of the forum.

Originally Posted By: Sherman333
Originally Posted By: Job
but to actually post links, I'm not sure we will be allowed to do this.

I stick with the current rules. You only post links to the relevant thread here on this forum.

Originally Posted By: Job
It was suggested to this poster that they look up domestic violence - cycle of abuse.

Exactly. Suggest they google/search certain terms.

But have the basic information that points them in the right direction here on this forum. There are other places to find a lot more information.

Doing it this way stays within the current guidelines and the spirit of this board (as I see it).

Yes the above is fine.


I have been in contact with the forum admin and we have determined that the DB Forum is not the place to discuss all of the abuse topics that Job selected in her posting.

Michelle has helped people in these situations save their marriages, however, it is not within the scope or purpose of the forum to be the place to do this.
Coaching is available if you wish to discuss topics such as abuse going on in your marriage.

So we will not be creating a new forum specifically for Abuse.
You are more than free to create a topic on this subject.
As long as we stay within the frame work of the board rules I do not have a problem with it.

I do still think that many posters here or on the MLC forum experience abuse, and that DB'ing in no way contradicts the basics of what you should DO.
My focus is still to continue for people to work on themselves and in doing that I do believe that you can not lose!

Thanks to Job for her efforts here, she is an invaluable resource IMHO.
OK new thread at 7am UK time Saturday in newcomers.

Please help if it's not on point Cadet.

Thanks

V
Z are you ok on this?

V
New thread:

New abuse thread

Thanks Z for being so open as already Stated on my thread, I consider you a brave and courageous young woman.

V
Thanks for starting this new thread on abuse Vanilla! Great job.

Did you notice that Cadet started a new thread too, to enable people to post to him and stating that he plans to start a Newcomer's Resource thread which will include your Abuse thread? I think that's such a great idea, because if no one posts on it for a day or two, the Abuse thread will get buried, but this way anyone can easily find it!

Thank you.
Originally Posted By: Vanilla
New thread:

New abuse thread

Thanks Z for being so open as already Stated on my thread, I consider you a brave and courageous young woman.

V

I think I will confine any of my comments to this thread on your new linked thread above.

Seems to me you are off to a good start, and I think it will be a good resource for the board.

And I see that Zelda has started her own new personal thread - well done!
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