Time to start a new thread, y'all.
Part 1:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2556647#Post2556647Part 2:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2565389&page=1Part 3:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2565428#Post2565428The story so far...
-STBX involved in A since late December/early January 2015
-I begin versions of LRT in mid-February
-STBX moves in with her parents first week of April
-I expose A to OM's W in mid-April
-STBX threatens to file for D immediately following exposure of A
-Holding pattern for now
Personally, I feel like I've come a long way in a relatively short period, largely because of the support I've received here. I am slowly learning to detach and come to the realization that this is going to be a very long journey. There is no magic bullet. The true goal is for me to become a whole person on the other side, no matter what the outcome. I owe this to myself and to my kids.
"Begin to be now what you will be hereafter."
-William James
This is an interesting development. Out of the blue, I just received a text from OM's W.
"Hi how are you? Are things better between you two?
He denied everything. We are trying to move on."
I have not replied yet and frankly, I'm not sure how I should reply.
I would say hi, and wish her the best.
You know from this forum that these things just don't move on.
I would say hi, and wish her the best.
You know from this forum that these things just don't move on.
TenBook,
I agree. But this text from OM's W does mean a few things to me.
One, OM or OM's W are not pursuing a D (at least not publicly).
Two, OM's W wouldn't have texted me out of the blue unless she was searching for some intel.
Three, I still have access to STBX's phone records (I haven't checked in a few weeks) so I could ask OM's W about the new, suspicious phone number calling my STBX.
OR, I could do nothing, knowing that I've done enough to expose the A, and just be patient to see if A will fizzle out on its own.
Defacto - IMO, let it die. If it is going on, the more you snoop or expose, the more they may dig their heels in and stay in the fog. Also, it may be harder for your WW to accept you've changed if this comes up.
Nothing you can do about the A - let it fizzle out on it's own, work on you, etc. Your gameplan doesn't change.
Nothing wrong with a "hi" and maybe a "things are moving along as well a they can for me. I wish the best for you and hope you are happy, whatever the outcome. Take care."
I agree with the idea of a vague text to keep the line open.
hold on...don't respond yet. She's been non-communicative so getting the best bang for your buck might be important.
My first impulse is to text her to call you. Actually probably say, "I figured he & they would deny. I was told you thought I was crazy for calling you. I'd rather speak to you directly. I have a few questions I'd only feel comfortable discussing with you on the phone. Obviously this is an extremely sensitive discussion and I'd like to know I was actually talking with you. I hope that's ok."
You'll get to express and get much more detail in a phone call.
Also, you never know who's on the other end of that phone if you text.
Defacto - IMO, let it die. If it is going on, the more you snoop or expose, the more they may dig their heels in and stay in the fog. Also, it may be harder for your WW to accept you've changed if this comes up.
Nothing you can do about the A - let it fizzle out on it's own, work on you, etc. Your gameplan doesn't change.
Nothing wrong with a "hi" and maybe a "things are moving along as well a they can for me. I wish the best for you and hope you are happy, whatever the outcome. Take care."
I mean no disrespect to Ripken and you are obviously free to take anyones advice here. We all are in your corner just trying to help you with our unprofessional peer opinions. However, I respectfully disagree with this advice.
1. Affairs don't "fizzle out"...they are either in an unhealthy inappropriate destructive extra marital relationship or they are not. There is no going back to "just friends" or even a "professional relationship". That would be dangerous to the way wards and disrespectful to the betrayed spouse. Relationship OVER [no contact] or not.
2. Any progress you've made towards getting your wife back or to see you've changed is meaningless if the affair is continuing. ( I personally think and hope that it's actually over and OM has dumped her to a large extent but even them remaining coworkers and making daily eye contact is actually a continuing inappropriate and hurtful relationship that eventually needs to stop if this two want to ever reconcile).
3. "Nothing you can do about the A" = true and false. There are some things he can do like exposing the affair to the OM's wife which he has done and continuing to communicate with his ALLIE (OM's wife) to collaborate and insure that the affair is actually ending/ended/dead and not underground. OM"s wife is hopefully going to be a lot more aggressive keeping her husband in line (woman just naturally tend to do this). Maybe she's making her husband quit his job and move to another hospital or clinic. That would be good information for Defacto to know. It's not snooping...it's fact checking to make sure you aren't wasting your time trying to make love tank deposits with a person STILL in an active affair.
4. Watch your boundaries. Don't meet with her in person and don't spend too much time consoling her. You aren't there to help her save her marriage. This is just helping each other kill the affair to the extent she and/or you.
This is an interesting development. Out of the blue, I just received a text from OM's W.
"Hi how are you? Are things better between you two?
He denied everything. We are trying to move on."
I have not replied yet and frankly, I'm not sure how I should reply.
Some mind reading (experienced based guessing):
OM denied it. She loves him and wants/wanted to believe him. The facts and information you shared with her are sinking in and OM's wife now isn't sure what to believe. It's likely she bought the "Defacto is a nut bag abusive jealous husband" line for a few days which is why she didn't respond to you earlier. I'd also guess she's talk to a family member or friend who told her that her husband is/was full of crap and that you (defacto) are and were likely telling her the truth. So NOW, finally a month later she does believe something inappropriate happened but she is going to let things "move on" for peace sakes hoping this was just a one off situation. OM is either dutifully making it up to her and giving her every assurance she needs or defiantly telling her she's nuts for second guessing him and not trusting him (gas lighting her).
Now she's hoping against hope that you have no more information for her and that your wife and you are working it out because that would mean your wife is staying away from her husband and all is right in the world again. She really won't be too excited to hear they are still talking via his office phone hard line. (OM will surely just tell her he was just checking on your wife).
One of the reasons you want a phone call with her is because you can convey a lot more rationality and calmness in a conversation than in text. There's too much opportunity to read between lines and have someone wonder if you are or could be a dangerous manipulative controlling man in text versus a nice guy just trying to do what is right and save your family.
Plus...you'll be able to laugh off when she tells you OM said you were crazy, dangerous, abusive, etc and say "a friend of mine told me word for word that's what your husband likely told you. It's like a script. All way wards say that. It's meant to manipulate you into disgusting my exposure and making you fear me communicating with me further. It avoids having to explain or justify anything. Attack the messenger. I assure you I am none of those things but understand you don't really know me so I would help you with any facts you need or want to assure you. Unlike your husband (and my wife), I'm an open book."
If I was so dangerous why not file a restraining or personal protection order against me?
Even if I were controlling abusive etc, how does that explain or justify their sexual relationship? Is your husband going to pursue inappropriate relationships with every distressed woman in that hospital?
If I'm a liar wouldn't your husband be suing me for defamation?
A potential bomb you could drop: "My wife has hinted that she was not your husband's first inappropriate relationship at the hospital. He has a reputation there so "moving on" and burying your head in the sand hoping this was just a "one off" situation that went a little beyond harmless flirting might be a huge mistake. IMO, she's still in denial that this was that bad and giving her husband the benefit of the doubt. It's likely he's a serial cheating doctor who gets off on the attention of the support staff females. The sooner she wakes up to that fact the better. The phone calls alone tell you that OM's not done with your wife and lying to his wife is a habit. He'll do it again and has likely done it numerous times already. Where there is smoke there is usually a fire.
Thanks Rip and Mahhhty. Still debating what to do next with the OM's W text message.
I did check STBX phone records for a little bit of intel. What I learned:
-no direct phone calls to/from OM's cell for since 05/08
-STBX did receive three incoming calls from the same suspicious doctor's office phone number (which I believe to be OM) in the middle of the week last week.
-STBX called a hotel in Hollywood, CA Sunday morning 05/17 for 3 minutes. It would have been 4am local time there. Odd to say the least.
-inbound text from OM 6:38pm 05/19
-outbound text to OM 11:54 pm 05/19
(I can't normally track text messages between STBX and OM due to iMessage. OM or STBX must have been in a location without good cell coverage)
Anyway, I confirmed STBX is still in contact with OM. My assumption is the majority of contact is probably thru text/iMessage as it can not be tracked. No idea as to what extent though.
I checked the phone records partially out of curiosity, but mainly to validate how I could utilize my contact, if any, with OM's W. Also, to see STBX still in contact with OM energizes and re-focuses my efforts towards DB.
The phone calls alone tell you that OM's not done with your wife and lying to his wife is a habit. He'll do it again and has likely done it numerous times already. Where there is smoke there is usually a fire.
And how do we know that they are lying.
Their lips are moving!
My first impulse is to text her to call you. Actually probably say, "I figured he & they would deny. I was told you thought I was crazy for calling you. I'd rather speak to you directly. I have a few questions I'd only feel comfortable discussing with you on the phone. Obviously this is an extremely sensitive discussion and I'd like to know I was actually talking with you. I hope that's ok."
You'll get to express and get much more detail in a phone call.
Also, you never know who's on the other end of that phone if you text.
This is great advice if I decide to contact OM's W. She did say before that OM is the tech guru and controls all the devices.
I think the trick here would be to give and convince OM's W to only move forward with intel against her H that she could verify without me getting involved, like phone calls and text from his own cell phone. I can ask and tell OM's W about the new land phone line to convince her of continued contact but I am not really looking forward to going down the spew route again with STBX. However, I'm sure STBX will suspect me again if there is any new turbulence in her A anyway.
OM and his wife still live together so she is in a better position to snoop herself. Hopefully any information you share will just clue her in on where to look herself and she can "bust" OM using her own intel.
It's a good sign that OM denied it. That means he still plans to stay married and lie (as long as he can) to his wife versus just coming out with it and saying "I'm in love,d it just happened and we need to divorce so I can be with my schmoopy soulmate".
I decided to text OM's W back and ask if she could call me. We'll see if she calls.
If she does, I plan to be calm and ask how she is doing. I will tell her that I expected STBX and OM to deny A. I will tell OM's W that STBX accused me of acting crazy and stalking when I exposed A. I'm sure this is what OM told his wife so it will actually confirm OM's and STBX's relationship to an extent. I will tell her that it is good that she and her H are trying to move on. I plan to ask OM's W if she recognizes the new phone number. I can tell her about the recent texts and calls between OM and STBX but I will ask her to use her own intel if possible.
Let the waiting game begin.
Never heard back from OM's W. Maybe tomorrow, maybe never. Who knows?
On a GAL front, went to a philosophy discussion group and then met up with some friends for some suds and Trivial Pursuit afterwards. Good times!
The only "contact" with STBX during the day was her comments on my Instagram pictures from my camping trip.
However, she did try to FaceTime in the evening but I was at a bar so I didn't think it was appropriate to answer. Then, an hour or so later, she texted:
"FaceTimed you earlier. The kids wanted to say goodnight. Hope you are well."
I didn't reply.
A few minutes later, she called five times in a row. I didn't answer.
I've been fired as her husband. I don't need to answer her phone calls. If she's worried about me, let her worry. Or let her wonder what I am up to.
Journaling:
STBX called this morning, we said our hellos, and she began asking about last night. She was calm and asked about the missed FaceTime call with kids and all the calls she made. I told her that I had a discussion group and then went out with some friends. I changed the subject to the kids and our drop off plans for today. STBX asked again about what I did last night. I just tell STBX that I went to this new place with some friends. She replies with, "That's great!"
STBX dropped off S1 with me as she was taking D4 to school. She got out of her car to give me some money for a bill. She then commented on how she liked my new shoes. I decided to nonchalantly ask STBX is she wanted to join the kids and I on a day trip that I have planned for tomorrow. She seemed interested, stated that she would go, and said that it sounded fun. She then gave me and S1 a hug and said it was good to see me.
I thought it was interesting that STBX had a lot of makeup on this morning. It seemed excessive for just dropping off D4 at school. I have no idea what her plans are today but she does deserve to have time to herself too. STBX did tell me the other night that she plans to meet up with some friends from work tonight. None of my business though.
I have no expectations for tomorrow. Actually, I fully expect STBX to not come along tomorrow, especially if she's out late tonight, gets a hotel, etc.
Either way, I'm looking forward to my next two days with the kiddos.
IF she comes...
Ask her to join you in making a big deal out of turning off your phone and putting it away when spending quality family time together. Explain to wife that it's just something you read about raising girls these days and once they become teenagers getting them to separate from their phones is near impossible UNLESS it's been family habit/tradition for years.
Act like you didn't even talk about this concept the other day because you don't want to be telling her this phone idea of yours like you are explaining why your wife was ridiculous to be mad the other day when she tried to make it out like you were merely trying to punish her. Let her draw her own conclusion that EVERYTHING isn't all about her all on her own.
THEN...maybe..a small part of her will miss EVERYTHING you do NOT being all about her.
Great job inviting her. I think she'll come. She'll tell herself it's good for your daughter to see you two getting along and co-parenting. She hates missing out on these moments.
IF she comes...
Ask her to join you in making a big deal out of turning off your phone and putting it away when spending quality family time together. Explain to wife that it's just something you read about raising girls these days and once they become teenagers getting them to separate from their phones is near impossible UNLESS it's been family habit/tradition for years.
Act like you didn't even talk about this concept the other day because you don't want to be telling her this phone idea of yours like you are explaining why your wife was ridiculous to be mad the other day when she tried to make it out like you were merely trying to punish her. Let her draw her own conclusion that EVERYTHING isn't all about her all on her own.
THEN...maybe..a small part of her will miss EVERYTHING you do NOT being all about her.
Great job inviting her. I think she'll come. She'll tell herself it's good for your daughter to see you two getting along and co-parenting. She hates missing out on these moments.
GB,
Thanks for the follow up and advice.
Part of me is having second thoughts now about inviting STBX tomorrow though because I have a hunch that she went to see OM today or will tonight. I don't want to make "deposits in the love bank" if the A is still full steam ahead.
Btw, nothing from OM's W yet. If she hasn't called by now, I'm not sure she intends to.
Journaling:
If anything, today proves just how much work I need to do to detach from STBX and to have no expectations.
I hadn't heard from STBX all day and I had a hunch something with OM was planned. I went all day without checking the phone records but I gave in a few minutes ago. I discovered that OM called STBX three times from his cell all within a 15 minute interval. I know that by itself, it doesn't mean anything. But with all the circumstantial indicators, it has me pretty bummed out.
I tell myself that whatever happens today with OM has happened before. I just need to refocus and utilize the time with my kids tonight to clear my head. Tomorrow, I need to act as if nothing happened today and be the best version of me I can. I know I will look my best because I picked up some new threads this morning.
STBX liked a few of my Instagram pics from my camping trip with D4. A moment later, STBX called to check in on the kids. We talked briefly about D4 and I put her on the phone with D4. STBX then asked if we could change the family day from Friday to Saturday. I told her that we were still going to do it tomorrow. STBX replied that she wouldn't be able to make it then. I remained calm and said, "That's ok. We are going to have a good time." STBX then asked me to give D4 a hug for her. I said I would and wished her a good night.
Maybe it's just me projecting but STBX seemed a little off to me.
Anyway, there's no way I'm going to change my plans with the kids tomorrow so I can accommodate whatever it is STBX is doing tonight/tomorrow morning, especially if it involves OM.
Well, I guess that settles that. I'll be sure to post a pic of the kids and I tomorrow to Instagram so STBX can see what she missed out on. Good riddance.
I had a great day so far with the kids. We went to a local museum and gardens. The kids loved it!
I didn't hear anything from STBX until around 1pm. She called and texted immediately following the call to check on the kids. I didn't answer or reply. She called again about a half hour later. This time I answered.
The tenor of the call was business like, very matter of fact. STBX asked about my morning with the kids. I told her that the kids and I had a great time. There was an awkward silence where the small talk usually goes. STBX then said she might not have to work tonight due to low patient count but she said that she would pick up the kids in the morning either way. (It's mindreading but my hunch is that this a lie about STBX having to work at all tonight).
Then, STBX again mentioned doing something with the kids tomorrow. I didn't really respond to this other than by saying I had hoped to get a haircut tomorrow. STBX said to just let her know when I make my appointment, which I did by text.
I don't have any plans tomorrow during the day (other than the haircut) but I do plan on going out tomorrow night.
So my question is this, how should I handle the possibility of doing something together tomorrow as a family?
I gave STBX the possibility of joining the kids and I this morning but she passed and never gave a reason. It feels like a get out of jail free card for her if we do something tomorrow, like there was no consequences for her decision today. I would also feel kind of weak by just going along with something. I definitely don't want to be the one to plan anything.
However, I don't want to put the kids in the middle of this and force them to suffer as a result. D4 and S1 deserve to have time together with both of their parents.
Also, STBX didn't volunteer anything about what she was up to all day yesterday, last night, or this morning. And I certainly didn't ask!
What is your parenting plan - you need to develop one if you don't have one already. Example would be 3 days with one parent, 3 days with the other etc...
It really helps to avoid miscommunication.
Heavy D,
Thanks for the feedback. I totally agree we need a structured parenting plan. Right now, because my STBX works overnight and I work during the day, I watch the kids when she works and she has them when she's off from work.
I think part of me has resisted discussing a parenting plan with her because it felt related to a D. If we had a three days on, three days off type deal, I'd be worried about who would watch kids when STBX is working. Plus, right now, MIL fills in the gaps (like when I am at work and STBX is sleeping after work). It's all whacked out!
Any recommendations on my current deal for tomorrow? My current thought is to not ask about it but if STBX brings it up, I could say something like, "That's a possibility. What did you have in mind?"
Defacto-
You really have come a long way but I think you're still 'stuck' and I really believe your W know she still has you on the rope.
Now that you know she is in contact with OM what are you going to do? What's your game plan now? Are you going to continue more of the same or really let her go?
Let me ask you this - if you turned back time and you went to the time you and W were dating and you found out she was seeing someone else, how would you react? Would you be pining over her? Or would you say I deserve better in my life?
I think you need a strong stance. Sandi advocates for the man to be a MAN. The attractive, independent guy your W knew that wouldn't put up with this sh!t.
You know your W is with OM and you still fill her in on what you're doing? I think it's time for more boundaries and less talk. Don't get me wrong. I think it's great you two can coparent and get along but I don't think there should be any family days. She has chosen another man ... So that cuts you from her life as her husband and as a family unit. The family dynamic has changed.
You don't have to be rude but you can be matter of fact still with a smile on your face and polite. She needs to feel what it's like to lose you because I don't think she feels that right now.
I made all the mistakes and many more. I wanted H to spend time with us as a family. I stupidly asked and got led on but it never happened. I asked knowing he was with someone else. It was stupid. When I stopped asking and stopped giving a you know what he noticed. I wasn't available and I didn't care if he showed up anymore.
I'm sorry for the 2x4s but I say all of this with love. I want you to be successful - whatever he outcome is if it is D this dynamic needs to change regardless.
Let her go. You will be happier I promise. Go out enjoy yourself and stop filling her in. Be mysterious.
Heavy D,
Thanks for the feedback. I totally agree we need a structured parenting plan. Right now, because my STBX works overnight and I work during the day, I watch the kids when she works and she has them when she's off from work.
I think part of me has resisted discussing a parenting plan with her because it felt related to a D. If we had a three days on, three days off type deal, I'd be worried about who would watch kids when STBX is working. Plus, right now, MIL fills in the gaps (like when I am at work and STBX is sleeping after work). It's all whacked out!
Any recommendations on my current deal for tomorrow? My current thought is to not ask about it but if STBX brings it up, I could say something like, "That's a possibility. What did you have in mind?"
1. It sounds to me like your current situation has the kids mostly sleeping at your place. As far as the courts are concerned (and the IRS) where the children sleep is what counts as "custody". If they are sleeping mostly or always at your house this is a good deal for you and you might not want to rock the boat. It's a decent setup towards you arguing for and winning "primary" custody should the divorce case proceed and a custody dispute result.
2. I don't think you should ask her what her plans are. It's weak to let her dictate the plan. IF you are going to spend time together (and why not take more of her time with your children) then come up with an idea that your wife can tag along to. Have her following YOUR lead (or not, her choice to tag along or not):
Idea 1: Well there's this pottery place where kids and parents can make art tougher that I was considering taking DD4 to someday to make some stuff, how about we all go over there tomorrow and give it a shot.
Idea 2: Find a local little carnival. I live is a big city and you can find a carnival going on somewhere in town just about any weekend.
Idea 3: Just meet for lunch after your haircut; maybe Chuck e cheese.
Give wife short spurts of focused attention but then focus on your daughter and let her observe you. This is why you want a fun place with lots of distractions.
I wouldn't suggest driving together anywhere. Meet her (and the kids) there so you can make a timely exit.
Instead of an awkward goodbye...call for "family hug" and then leave without turning back (or just waving to your daughter).
Don't say you have somewhere to be or an appointment but look at your watch and make it seem like you are acting like you don't have somewhere to be...but really do have somewhere to be at a certain time.
Drive away the opposite direction from the direction you'd be expected to go home.
3. I'd drop the ticked off attitude towards her. Your marriage is dying and your wife is off in wayward la la land. If there is any hope for your marriage you need to be that lighthouse for her guiding her back to the marriage. Sure, she may not come back but you really don't know if she's seeing OM or just talking to him a bit on the phone. Being snippy with her only helps her justify and rationalize divorcing you and feeling OK about that decision. She said she was having second thoughts. Some way wards just say that and do nothing whereas others actually begin down a slow painful path towards recovery. You don't know but being a great guy is what you are better at. It's more attractive and more likely to make her think harder about what she's doing...MAYBE....no expectations.
4. OM's wife: Text "Sorry for bothering you again. I know they probably told you I was this angry vindictive and maybe even abusive husband that your husband just had to support my wife in leaving but please understand that people in affairs ALL say that. It's a lie. I am not abusive or controlling in the least. I simply love my family and I'm fighting for my marriage. You say you just want to "move on" and I wish it were that easy. Neither of us can do that if they are continuing their affair. The reality of the situation is we need to work together just a little to make sure neither of us are getting played. I'd simply like to speak with you to confirm some information and compare notes as I don't trust sending texts because I can't be sure it is you receiving it. If you are uncomfortable about this maybe three way in your mother or sister and we can all help make some sense of this situation."
Defacto-
You really have come a long way but I think you're still 'stuck' and I really believe your W know she still has you on the rope.
Now that you know she is in contact with OM what are you going to do? What's your game plan now? Are you going to continue more of the same or really let her go?
Let me ask you this - if you turned back time and you went to the time you and W were dating and you found out she was seeing someone else, how would you react? Would you be pining over her? Or would you say I deserve better in my life?
I think you need a strong stance. Sandi advocates for the man to be a MAN. The attractive, independent guy your W knew that wouldn't put up with this sh!t.
You know your W is with OM and you still fill her in on what you're doing? I think it's time for more boundaries and less talk. Don't get me wrong. I think it's great you two can coparent and get along but I don't think there should be any family days. She has chosen another man ... So that cuts you from her life as her husband and as a family unit. The family dynamic has changed.
You don't have to be rude but you can be matter of fact still with a smile on your face and polite. She needs to feel what it's like to lose you because I don't think she feels that right now.
I made all the mistakes and many more. I wanted H to spend time with us as a family. I stupidly asked and got led on but it never happened. I asked knowing he was with someone else. It was stupid. When I stopped asking and stopped giving a you know what he noticed. I wasn't available and I didn't care if he showed up anymore.
I'm sorry for the 2x4s but I say all of this with love. I want you to be successful - whatever he outcome is if it is D this dynamic needs to change regardless.
Let her go. You will be happier I promise. Go out enjoy yourself and stop filling her in. Be mysterious.
T0,
I sincerely appreciate the constructive criticism. It means a ton because I know it comes from experience and success.
You are right that this week has been tough for me in the detachment department. I've definitely backslid in this area. I'm off from work so I have a lot of extra time on my hands that I have not used as productively as I could have. And, you are right, I definitely deserve better. It should make me angry and even more resolute to know she still continues to engage with OM.
In regards to family days, they used to be a weekly occurrence. But since BD in early January, we've done something resembling a family day only once, and that was a few months ago. My motivation for inviting STBX this time was simply to try something different. Honestly, I was leery of even inviting her and a little relieved when she declined.
In response to sharing too much information with STBX, I'm assuming you are referring to my personal life. As their mother, I feel she still has a right to ask how and what they are doing to some extent. As you can read from my posts, this pretty much is all we talk about whenever it is that we talk.
STBX doesn't always ask what I'm doing but I try to be mysterious when she asks. I know I can do a better job though. I usually start with being vague but will reveal nonessential details if she continues to inquire further. I try to walk the line of not lying but also not coming across as childish by pretending like I'm hiding something from my parents. Suggestions and advice on tricks to being mysterious without sounding curt or silly accepted and appreciated!
Thanks again for the 2x4s!
2. I don't think you should ask her what her plans are. It's weak to let her dictate the plan. IF you are going to spend time together (and why not take more of her time with your children) then come up with an idea that your wife can tag along to. Have her following YOUR lead (or not, her choice to tag along or not)
Thanks. Good advice, GB. IF STBX asks, I will say that the kids and I are headed to a local Green Market in the morning and she is welcome to join us if she wants to. If not, I will drop the kids off at her place when we are done.
3. I'd drop the ticked off attitude towards her. Your marriage is dying and your wife is off in wayward la la land. If there is any hope for your marriage you need to be that lighthouse for her guiding her back to the marriage. Sure, she may not come back but you really don't know if she's seeing OM or just talking to him a bit on the phone. Being snippy with her only helps her justify and rationalize divorcing you and feeling OK about that decision. She said she was having second thoughts. Some way wards just say that and do nothing whereas others actually begin down a slow painful path towards recovery. You don't know but being a great guy is what you are better at. It's more attractive and more likely to make her think harder about what she's doing...MAYBE....no expectations.
Is it that obvious? I know I was being stern on here but I had hoped that it didn't translate in my conversations with STBX. But, I'm sure it did slip in a bit. Anything that stood out to you so I can correct it immediately going forward?
4. OM's wife: Text "Sorry for bothering you again. I know they probably told you I was this angry vindictive and maybe even abusive husband that your husband just had to support my wife in leaving but please understand that people in affairs ALL say that. It's a lie. I am not abusive or controlling in the least. I simply love my family and I'm fighting for my marriage. You say you just want to "move on" and I wish it were that easy. Neither of us can do that if they are continuing their affair. The reality of the situation is we need to work together just a little to make sure neither of us are getting played. I'd simply like to speak with you to confirm some information and compare notes as I don't trust sending texts because I can't be sure it is you receiving it. If you are uncomfortable about this maybe three way in your mother or sister and we can all help make some sense of this situation."
This whole situation is troubling. Why would OM's W reach out only to go back into hiding? I'm worried about sending such a long and detailed text especially based on her lack of response in the past and not knowing who really is sending the texts. However, I feel like OM's W could really be instrumental in destroying the A because it looks like OM isn't heading down the D path in his own MR.
She has chosen another man
In my experience, this isn't USUALLY the case.
She has chosen confusion. She has chosen to stay undecided about everything another day. She's not sure what she wants. She may know she can't imagine not talking to OM another minute or day or they may be wrapping things up and having dangerous "closure" contact (dangerous because often the affair just reignites). She also may know she's having trouble imagining a life without Defacto and she doesn't like the idea that he may or may not be dating someone himself. She may have split emotions about the thought that defacto could be dating someone else because on one hand it means he's now ALSO a an adulterer (less shame/guilt for her) while also Defacto is moving on, accepted the inevitable divorce and is better off without her but on the other, she doesn't want some other woman around her kids or taking her man.
All mind reading and really difficult to pinpoint. Waywards are all over the place so part of detaching is really not worrying about it or listening to it. You can't argue with a wayward or teach a wayward so it's really just about listening and being around them as much as you can. Which is why I keep encouraging Defacto to spend time with her, invite her places, without being needy or overly concerned if she says "no" (like she has the last few days).
Defacto - don't expect or even act concerned about why she's cancelled or not available. Don't ask her to report in. Make the presumption that she'd rather be with you than anybody else (self confidence wise because she'd be a fool not to want to be with you) and if she doesn't show or want to come...her loss. No expectations. Simply tell her she's missing out on a lot of fun and good times. Being around you should be fun. Nothing serious. If serious conversation ensues it's because SHE started it. Then you hyper focus on her and her needs, listening intently, validating and mirroring her until the conversation drags...then go back to having fun.
I've also been thinking about a response to the next time she says something like "I'm having second thoughts". Perhaps an alternative would be something like "having 'second thoughts' is a nice comment that you keep making but what does it mean? Am I supposed to beg you to choose me? Am I supposed to be excited by the comment? I just don't know what to do with that comment so I guess I'm left with asking you "what's your plan?" and if you don't have one, would you be open to discussing a plan of specific actions you could take to make me receptive towards actually believing these "second thoughts" are more than just empty words."
Your Plan:
1. No Contact with OM.
a. Send him a "no contact" letter
b. Send OM's wife an apology letter promising to never interfere with their marriage and family again
c. Pursue changing jobs completely away from OM (this doesn't have to happen overnight but actions and progress should be spelled out specifically)
2. Put filing divorce on hold until Fall, at the least. (NEITHER of you are committing to recovery right now, it's simply agreeing to delay the filing of the divorce until much later this year.
3. Moving back in together by the end of June or July (it's really hard to recover while separated but at the same time it might be really hard on DD4 if she moves home and then back out shortly thereafter. It'd be nice to know you are actually recovering versus just delaying the divorce before she moved back home. Thus, you may leave this off the table up front. She's at her parents so it's not like you have to be trust that OM isn't sneaking into some apartment in the middle of the night.
4. Commit to spending as much time together as possible with AND without the children.
Also, STBX didn't volunteer anything about what she was up to all day yesterday, last night, or this morning. And I certainly didn't ask!
Hi Defacto,
Perfect, good for you! Detach, detach, detach.
Your friend,
Bob
D -
I'm always on my phone so sometimes I have a hard time making sense/articulating what I want say and how I want it to come across. So I apologize in advance for that.
What I'm trying to convey is yes by all means be nice to Your W. I want you to be friendly. But there is a difference between friendly and behavior comes off as pursuing.
I'm far from a vet as I still have a lot to learn so please don't abide by my advice alone. Is there a happy medium? Is there a way to email W and say something along the lines of 'I Am not okay with you stepping out on our M. As long as you are in contact with OM I cannot be in your life as anymore than a coparent'
I don't know what you're trying to accomplish by inviting her out with the kids. I personally don't think it's the right decision. You're rewarding her bad behavior with treats of things you did in the past. you're letting her know it's okay to have OM in her life and break up her family but you guys will still get together as a family. Sure down the line if this ends up in a D you want to do things for the kids but right now she needs a taste of what her decisions will change her life to be like.
I hope this helps.
And now for your hourly update (very similar to the previous update), STBX just called to check on the kids. When I answered the call, STBX heard me talking with D4 and immediately asked to speak with D4. I then asked her what time she was coming over to pick up the kids tomorrow and we agreed to 9am. She asked briefly about S1 and I wished her a good night.
Obviously, STBX wasn't working tonight (because of her flexibility to pick up kids in morning) but she didn't mention it. She also didn't mention doing anything tomorrow and I didn't ask. Honestly, STBX sounded off to me, almost like she had just woken up or had been drinking or something.
Anyway, looks like I will have most of the day to myself tomorrow. Thankful for the wonderful time I had with D4 and S1 the past two days. Time to start putting some GAL plans together.
I just want to send out a giant thank you to everyone on this board. The community here is pivotal to so many of us in extremely difficult situations. I don't know where I'd be without this group!
And a happy Memorial Day weekend to all!
STBX just came by to pick up kids. I was sitting on the couch when she came in and she sat right next to me. She kind of snuggled up against me. A few moments later, she put her head on my shoulder.
We did our usual conversation about the kids, our schedules, and we just sat around for about twenty minutes or so. (I did ask her how she was feeling because I knew she went to the doctor on Monday). After a while, STBX mentioned they should be going, so I walked them out to her car.
I finished saying my goodbyes to the kids and STBX opens her car door and puts her arms outstretched like she wants a hug. I lean in to give her a brief embrace and wave goodbye.
That's it. I was friendly, confident yet soft spoken, and I looked my best. STBX was also friendly and cordial. She didn't mention joining her and the kids today and I didn't ask. All in all, it seemed like a pretty natural interaction.
Now, time to GAL enjoy the holiday weekend!
STBX texted me her work schedule for next month as I requested. She also texted to ask if I wanted to take the kids tomorrow. (I had hinted this morning that maybe I would take them to a BBQ or something) I was still mulling this question when she called.
STBX said she called to ask me if I wanted to meet up with her and the kids for lunch tomorrow. I agreed that it sounded like fun. I also told STBX that I would take the kids tomorrow night because I want to spend as much time as possible with them. Then, STBX asked me about watching the kids at the end of June (for some friends coming into town) and in October (for a bachelorette party in Guatemala!). I said I would, as long as I didn't have anything else planned. I then said my goodbyes and told her I would see her and the kids tomorrow.
I hope she doesn't call again today. I want to enjoy the rest of my day. I probably just won't answer if she does call.
Two takeaways:
One, I need to start planning some getaways or fun trips for myself. I guess I haven't really thought about planning anything significant but I could certainly use some time away to visit some friends.
Two, I know that STBX is really confused right now, still contacting OM, and we are likely headed towards D, but it stinks to hear that she is expecting to not be together with me as far off as October. Oh well, no big deal. What did I expect?
Detach. Detach. Detach.
Anyway, getting lunch tomorrow should really be a low pressure situation. It really is just a child exchange with some food thrown in. I'll just be upbeat, an attentive dad, and exemplify what she is missing out on.
I had a great time last night meeting up with some friends. We hit up two breweries in the area. For the most part, I didn't think about STBX. While I was out, she did send me a text with a voice memo of D4 singing a song. STBX said D4 was working on a Father's Day card for me. I didn't respond to the text.
I only have a few days of vacation left. STBX will have the kids a couple of days. So I took my own advice and made plans to get out of town on Monday and Tuesday. I will be staying with a good friend in a town a couple hours away. I'm really looking forward to this. The ironic thing is that my buddy lives in a town that whenever I have visited in the past, my STBX would always get nervous and suspicious.
Anyway, the question I would like some help with is this, should I even tell STBX that I am going out of town?
I was thinking of letting her know when I drop the kids off tomorrow morning. I'm definitely getting out of town for me but why not plant a seed and let STBX think about what I am up to?
STBX just called to see if we could move up our lunch because D4 was starving. I said no problem. As I was ending the call, STBX asked me to hold on and talk about something else.
She said that her work schedule got messed up because I changed my vacation schedule (which is not true, but I didn't mention it) so she had to switch her work days around. She stated that she now has to work tomorrow night. I responded that would be a problem because I had plans. She stated that I had to do it. I told her that I was going to be out of town. STBX asked me where I was going. I told her and I could tell she was a little surprised. But, she still insisted on me watching the kids. I was silent for a few moments. She then proposed that I go out of town tonight and be back in time to watch kids tomorrow night. (That actually works out better for me due to an event I wanted to go to). So I agreed and told STBX that I thought it was a fair compromise and I was glad we could work it out.
STBX then let out an expletive and she realized that this new schedule conflicted with her plans tonight. I said, "Do you have to work tonight?" Of course she doesn't but apparently had made some plans when I originally volunteered to watch the kids tonight.
I could tell STBX was flustered but it's not my deal. These are the type of scheduling and communication mix ups that happen in a D. I feel that I have been more than flexible in this new arrangement. However, I can see the lack of a structured parenting plan will have hiccups in the future.
We ended the call by saying that we would see each other tomorrow evening at the kid exchange.
Now it's time to hop in the car and enjoy my little road trip!
STBX just called and put D4 on the phone to talk to me. Then STBX apologized for the last minute change. I told her not to worry about it and it actually worked out better for me. Then she asked what I was doing. I told her that I was going to an music event out of town. That's all I said about it.
STBX asked again if it really worked out better. I told her that it did in this instance but we are going to have to be flexible going forward.
I know I could have been more cryptic about my plans. Oh well, it'll have to do.
I'm glad she called though because I have been really missing those kiddos.
Oh, I think 'music event out of town' is a pretty good response. It still raises all kinds of questions about what sort of event and with whom...
Hope you have a good time! :-)
Oh, I think 'music event out of town' is a pretty good response. It still raises all kinds of questions about what sort of event and with whom...
Hope you have a good time! :-)
Thanks Toots! That makes me feel better. I don't want to forget that just me telling her I was going out of town may have been surprising to her also.
I don't think it's a big enough deal to worry about. I don't know if STBX was going to call anymore but I think it's a good idea to ignore her calls the rest of the time that I am out of town.
And thanks again, I will have a great time!
I had a great night hanging out with some good friends. It feels good to get away.
STBX texted me to share a funny story about D4. I didn't respond. Thirty minutes later, she called twice. When I didn't answer, she texted me this:
"Thanks for continuing to spread rumors about me. You know, I'm still the mother of your children and if you wanted what was best for them then you would stop talking badly about me. It reflects on them.
And tell your friends thanks for "unfollowing me" on Instagram. Super cool move."
Uh, what? Huh?
Apparently, STBX has resorted to scrolling through her friends on social network sites to see who has stopped following her. I did tell two friends that STBX and I were moving towards D but neither unfriended her.
Of course, I didn't reply to this text.
best to just ignore those texts. Spew.
Hey guys, could use some advice.
STBX called twice this morning and I let it go to voicemail both times. The second time she left a voicemail but it was S1 saying hello to me. It brought a smile to my face.
Mind reading here but I imagine she was calling to check in and see what I was up to. I believe she will ask me what I did, where I stayed last night, and why I didn't answer the phone.
I know I could do a better job being mysterious to STBX. I don't want to lie or come off as being childish. Obviously, I didn't do anything to be ashamed of and just crashed at my buddy's house.
Suggestions appreciated.
To me it seems about control. She doesn't like the fact that you aren't taking her calls. When she realizes she can't control you by being nasty or demanding she tries being cute or warm (using S1). Bottom line is she's trying to find which buttons control you.
It's up to you how to handle it. You can either not respond to any of it and if pressed just say that while you intend to be good co-parents for the sake of the kids, you are not interested in a friendship and that you'll only be replying to discussion that involves the children and is important...or you could not reply at all...or you could choose to reply in brief and friendly ways when she is friendly to you (in effect telling her the types of messages you'll respond to).
I like the last option the best, and could see dropping her a text message saying "nice to hear from S1, hope you two are enjoying your weekend" and just ignoring the other comments. If she presses you feel free to just stay dark. You can communicate on your own terms. You're not her H anymore, you don't owe her anything, you just have to be sure you feel your behavior matches your beliefs (free of control and punishment on your end, etc.).
I
To me it seems about control. She doesn't like the fact that you aren't taking her calls. When she realizes she can't control you by being nasty or demanding she tries being cute or warm (using S1). Bottom line is she's trying to find which buttons control you.
It's up to you how to handle it. You can either not respond to any of it and if pressed just say that while you intend to be good co-parents for the sake of the kids, you are not interested in a friendship and that you'll only be replying to discussion that involves the children and is important...or you could not reply at all...or you could choose to reply in brief and friendly ways when she is friendly to you (in effect telling her the types of messages you'll respond to).
I like the last option the best, and could see dropping her a text message saying "nice to hear from S1, hope you two are enjoying your weekend" and just ignoring the other comments. If she presses you feel free to just stay dark. You can communicate on your own terms. You're not her H anymore, you don't owe her anything, you just have to be sure you feel your behavior matches your beliefs (free of control and punishment on your end, etc.).
Zues,
Thanks for the reply! I agree that it's all about control for STBX. I traditionally only respond to texts about the kids or bills, etc. I've begun experimenting with screening more of her calls too. I have purposefully ignored all of her communications while I was out of town for strategic effect and for my own good.
I don't plan to contact STBX until later to just let her know when she can drop off kids tonight. But I do expect her to ask me in person about my trip. I just want to have some responses ready that way I don't betray my sense of mystery.
To me it seems about control. She doesn't like the fact that you aren't taking her calls. When she realizes she can't control you by being nasty or demanding she tries being cute or warm (using S1). Bottom line is she's trying to find which buttons control you.
Hey Defacto,
I agree with Zues, too! It's about control. She probably feels putting S1 on the phone will get you to call back. Hang tough.
How are you otherwise?
Bob
Hey Bob, thanks for checking in on me. I'm just trying to hang tough. I'm having a good time on the backside of my vacation.
It's been a little more difficult to detach as of late though. That may have something to do with both STBX and I being on vacation at the same time. Just a lot of extra free time to occupy I guess. I just need to keep telling myself that this is a marathon and to keep a PMA about everything.
Right now, I'm trying to follow some good advice and working on being more mysterious to STBX. The trick is it not coming off as forced or as me trying too hard.
So, STBX called while I was driving home and I figured it probably would be smart to answer from a scheduling standpoint. Early on, I tried to dictate the conversation by keeping the focus on the kids. We worked out the pick up and drop off plans for the next two days for the kids.
(The details below may be out of order as I'm trying to get all the details in.)
STEX then asked me why I don't return her text messages anymore. I responded by saying that when I saw them it was too late too reply.
She then started saying how her feelings were hurt because a handful of my friends stopped following her on Instagram. I've validated her and told her I understand how her feelings would be hurt. STBX then said that she assumed that this took place because I had to be spreading rumors about her. I responded by saying "Listen, I don't really talk to these people all that much. And when we talk, I don't talk about our relationship. I try to keep things light and social."
STBX then says that it feels like her and I aren't friends anymore either.
I reply that there are no winners in this type of situation. She then says how her friends who have gone through this before told her to expect to lose half of her friends in a D. And that her lawyer/therapist told her that she would be a stronger person after going through this.
STBX then began to talk about how she doesn't feel it's fair to be losing friends because they don't know the details of our marriage. She said that she just wanted a H who was crazy about her. She talked about this a little longer and also talked about how she felt that she told me how unhappy she was all the time. I said that she has valid reasons for being unhappy in our marriage. I say again that if I had it to do all over again I would do a lot of things differently.
STBX reminds me of how I knew she was abused when she was younger and then brings up her solitary allegation of marital rape again.
STBX then said that she had hoped I would cheat on her to give her an excuse to end the relationship.
Again, I did a lot of validating and let her do most of the talking.
She said that I would never be able to put up with all her "flakiness" and that she would never be able to put up with my nuances. She kept reiterating how she just wanted someone who is crazy about her like it was in the beginning of our relationship.
In response I said that I just want to say one thing and then I need to get back to driving. I told her to remember that feelings and emotions can change over time with a little bit of effort. (I know this last part is probably pursuing but I felt like she wouldn't hear this truth from any other source right now.)
I then change the conversation back to the kids, the drop off this evening and I said I'd see her tonight
I know this is mind reading, but it seems like STBX is spending a lot of time comparing the limerance, the euphoria of falling in love with OM, to any and every flaw with me and our marriage. And I'm also a little confused as to why she wanted to talk about all this again. She has told me all of this before. Why again and why now?
I really wasn't ready for this type of call but I tried my best. I was kind of thrown for a loop by it all. The call lasted around 15 minutes, a little longer than I preferred. However, I thought it best to let STBX talk about the MR if she was wanting to. I spent most of the time just listening.
Did I do okay?
Hey Bob, thanks for checking in on me. I'm just trying to hang tough. I'm having a good time on the backside of my vacation.
Hey Defacto, you're welcome, I think about your sitch so much.
Regarding the post after this one, your last about the convo, she really caught you off guard. Also, you raise a great point wondering why she's bringing all this up again. I wouldn't waste much time/energy on trying to figure it out, but I understand why you would ask.
I feel you did a good job by validating her feelings. Having mentioned that, I can understand wanting to take the call, but may I make one suggestion? First of all, hindsight is always 20/20, I know that. But since you asked, I think you should not have answered her call. Again, it sounds like you did a good job, but you were really caught off-guard.
If this happens again, you may want to consider not answeing and, shortly thereafter, sending her a text indicating you are busy. Ask her in the text what she needed. Maybe you can get a clue about want she's going to vent about and you can be more mentally preprared.
I have gone thru this, too. I've learned the hard way that most times it's best not to answer. Make any sense? Vets and others, what do you think?
Defacto really needs us now.
Chin up!
Bob
Answer questions with questions...then listen to her talk in circles.
Wife: Where were you last night?
husband: Why does it matter?
Wife: 5 minutes explanation why she is entitled to know all about your life followed by I just wondered where you were?
Husband: Are you accusing me of something (acting kind of defensive almost as though you actually do have something to hide)?
wife: 5 minutes more of talking in circles that you listen intently upon tending to nod in agreement and looking her in the eyes with focused attention followed by do you have something to hide?
husband: Are you looking to have an honest conversation?
wife: him and haws knowing she wants truth FROM YOU but isn't really prepared to discuss herself honestly but what the heck...she doesn't have to share any truth of her own that she doesn't want to so why not "sure, what do you want to talk about honestly?"
husband: You said last week you were having second thoughts, what does that mean?
wife: let her talk for 5 minutes explaining and sharing her wishy washy feelings again you just listen, tend to agree and keep her talking without sharing all that much yourself. Then she asks how do you feel?
husband: guess I'm having second thoughts too. Sometimes when I'm out there on my own something happens and I really want to share it with you like always, know what I mean?
wife: let her talk again. Ending at so where were you last night?
husband: [mockingly] Are you jealous? laughing...continue, don't worry about it lets go get some ice cream.
Answer her questions with questions and just use the opportunity to really listen to her. In the end, you never really shared where you were, who you were with. You distract her attention to going to do something fun instead of dragging out the conversation on and on. If she starts really hammering you - Who were you with last night or something demanding an answer you could say "Are you still talking to OM?" as your question to her question that she's not prepared to talk about. Then you say, "see, neither of us are completely prepared to be honest with one another. If you want my honesty than you need to get honest with me about your relationship with OM. When did it start? What did you two do, specifically? Where do things stand now? These are questions that need answers if and when both of us decide to try to do anything about having "second thoughts". If you don't want to have this conversation today or now, I'm fine with that. Let's go get ice cream".
Then...after all that focused attention...you back off. You pushed so now you pull back again. Go pay attention to your children and leave her to think and stew or whatever. If she wants to talk more make her pursue it and again, answer her questions with questions and just listen.
You don't have to be stoic, dismissive or flippant. Detaching doesn't mean in her presence you have to be aloof and uncaring. Your 180 is to show some emotion from time to time but you do so without begging or pleading for another chance with a willingness to accept crumbs from her. You "detach" when you aren't with her so you can be strong when you have these interactions with her and uncompromising. SHE has a lot more "answers" to provide you that are a lot more important than what you did last night.
Other good questions:
1. Who are you? I mean, it's strange to have been married this long and feel like I don't even know you. Let's say you are a house, I feel like there are some private rooms you've never really let me in to. If we are maybe divorcing I'd like to know who you really are before that happens? What's going on with you?
[this is a tough question. she's probably really not ready to share much but way wards do love to talk and they often think they are sooooo very deep and interesting that you just might catch her a moment of clarity where she decides to really share and even over share. You've got to just listen. Some of it will or might be just ridiculous. Some of it might be really hurtful. You'll want to argue. You'll want to teach. You'll want to defend. Don't. It's not worth it. She's not ready to be taught but just by listening to her calmly and without judging she'll appreciate it so much more and find that she can and maybe could have talked to you more all along.
2. A recovery starts with a foundation of honesty, wouldn't you agree?
3. Wouldn't you agree, that us being happily married would be the best for our children?
(key word there..."HAPPILY". She may object saying staying married just for the kids isn't healthy but you respond "I fully agree. I said "happily married", I agree that in the end if we can't achieve being "happily married" that we should amicably divorce.)
4. Got any ideas how we could achieve "happily married"?
You are leading the witness here. You want her to have nothing and then ask you if you have any ideas. Right then you may just want to say "I've got some, would you like me to email them to you later cause now this is getting a bit heavy and we need to get going?
*I worry sometimes over detaching sends the following messages:
a. You really don't care about her
b. You are fine with divorcing
c. You have given up on her, the marriage and the family
d. You've actually found someone else
e. She should just file and get it over with
f. You seem happier without her
g. She's not lovable (way wards are often deeply insecure)
h. You never really loved her (justification for cheating on you)
i. OM is her only and best option
You can counteract that with just one conversation where you don't really assure her she's still got you on the hook and can continue cheating and doing whatever at her own pleasure while you remain her backup rather that you too are having second thoughts (notice this is flipping the choice on it's head by saying you didn't think you could stay married to her but you're now not sure maybe you can forgive her) and that you've always valued her and cherished her. Divorce is not easy for you to think about either. You commiserate with her instead of 'miserating' at her. Mirror her emotions and if she cries, you cry too. All the while you remain detached from the outcome. Either way, you are going to be fine. Then...be the one to end it. Leave her to want to pursue more with you. Leave her wondering what you are thinking. Leave her wanting to share more with you.
Wow, that's great gb! I was just saying u wondered if detaching would come across as too uncaring, but you're saying detaching is what we do when we are away to give us the strength to have positive non pursuing interactions with ww, that we end on high notes.
That's a great way to look at it.
Wow, that's great gb! I was just saying u wondered if detaching would come across as too uncaring, but you're saying detaching is what we do when we are away to give us the strength to have positive non pursuing interactions with ww, that we end on high notes.
That's a great way to look at it.
If a wayward wife is living with OM or openly and notoriously dating OM, you don't have these kind of conversations at all. Instead I think you fight the affair directly but that's another thread another day.
If a wayward wife has filed for divorce and served you, you might second guess having these conversation until she takes the step of actually putting the divorce on hold or dismissing it.
Defacto may not have these conversation for another month yet...because he is not the one pursuing such conversations. He just needs to be prepared for it if and when it happens and by answering questions with questions he can sort of lead his wayward wife to herself lead the conversations in that direction (since she's the one doing all the talking and answering).
Notice too...by detaching he's got HER asking questions about what he's doing and with whom. He's got her calling, texting and generally blowing up his phone. If he completely avoids responding...she'll just stop. Girls don't chase forever and eventually a man has to step up and pursue the woman he loves. A betrayed husband has to do this very carefully, without expectations and in an internally detached strategic manner. It helps to have a slightly cocky arrogance essentially acting confident that you are the superior choice for her, you know it and she's either going to figure that out or her loss.
Betrayed husband's need to be let in on the secret. YOU ARE HER SOULMATE. God choose you for her. You are her perfect mate. God didn't and doesn't make mistakes. She can try to deny that all she wants and she MAY eventually divorce you to be with OM or anyone else but that doesn't make it less truthful or prove God wrong. She has free will. She can deny God's gift for her. You can't stop her from denying it, but just knowing that should give you some confidence knowing you can do or say just about anything and it's perfect because it's supposed to be you and her together. See the humor in her rejecting you and that truth. She's struggling to justify a lie (that you two don't belong together). Don't compare yourself to OM, he'll never be anything compared to you. You aren't competing for her with OM or anyone. You've already been declared the winner by God. You fight for her because it's the right thing to do. To cherish her in good times and bad, in [wayward] sickness and health. Because you took an oath to do so. If she ends it and gives you a certificate of divorce, your obligations end at that moment.
If a wayward wife is living with OM or openly and notoriously dating OM, you don't have these kind of conversations at all. Instead I think you fight the affair directly but that's another thread another day.
Now that is a thread I would love to read. Please expand.
Betrayed husband's need to be let in on the secret. YOU ARE HER SOULMATE. God choose you for her. You are her perfect mate. God didn't and doesn't make mistakes. She can try to deny that all she wants and she MAY eventually divorce you to be with OM or anyone else but that doesn't make it less truthful or prove God wrong. She has free will. She can deny God's gift for her. You can't stop her from denying it, but just knowing that should give you some confidence knowing you can do or say just about anything and it's perfect because it's supposed to be you and her together. See the humor in her rejecting you and that truth. She's struggling to justify a lie (that you two don't belong together). Don't compare yourself to OM, he'll never be anything compared to you. You aren't competing for her with OM or anyone. You've already been declared the winner by God. You fight for her because it's the right thing to do. To cherish her in good times and bad, in [wayward] sickness and health. Because you took an oath to do so. If she ends it and gives you a certificate of divorce, your obligations end at that moment.
Defacto,
Wow! GB gave you some excellent advice in both posts after mine.
GB, the part I quoted from you above I agree with 100% ...no...1000%
Hang in there Defacto.
Bob
Bob,
Thanks so much for the advice and encouragement. It's good to remind myself to not answer a call that I'm not prepared to answer.
GB,
As usual, pure gold. I specifically like the advice to answer STBX's questions with some questions of my own. It's a strategy that I hadn't considered. I can always count on your timely support to help me on my way. And, I agree with Bob that your last paragraph was one of the most inspirational things I have read. It is unlikely that STBX and I ever reconcile, but I will reread that paragraph when I am lacking confidence.
All the remaining interactions with STBX today have been only about the kids and I'm completely ok with that. I could use a couple of easy breezy interactions after this afternoon's phone call.
STBX dropped off the kids at my house before her work shift. I was so excited to see the kids. My joy was overflowing and I'm sure STBX could tell. As I was walking around her car to pick up S1, she complimented my new haircut and my new shoes. I responded with a nonchalant "Thanks." I then made sure she got a chance to give both kids a goodnight kiss. However, I didn't want to seem like I was waiting around for a hug so I started to walk away and simply gave STBX a smile, a wave, and wished her a good night.
STBX then called from work to check on kids like she normally does. I quickly put D4 on speakerphone. When D4 finished, I told STBX that D4 and I were having a slumber party. I wished her a good night. STBX made it a point to say "thank you very much." I'm not sure what she was so thankful for but whatever.
Just a few upbeat and no nonsense interactions to help keep a LBS focused and put this afternoon in the rearview mirror.
Journaling:
I had another fun night with the kids. D4 and I snuggled until we fell asleep.
At 1:26am, STBX called from work but I didn't answer.
This morning, after her work shift, STBX called, as she normally does. We talked about D4 a bit because she was upset about something. Then, I asked STBX how work went. She started to tell me a story from work when D4 asked to talk with her mom again. Once D4 finished with STBX, I asked if she could finish her work story. I listened to her story and made a few validating comments. Then, I confirmed our drop off schedule for later today and encouraged her to get some rest. I did not say anything about the late-night phone call, nor did she volunteer anything.
Reflecting:
This is a pretty standard interaction between her and I, a quick child status update and small pleasantries. On these calls I'm always upbeat, cordial, and interested. I know these morning post-work phone calls are made by STBX out of comfort and habit. However, I know there has been some discussion about me being less available, more mysterious to STBX. I have tried to employ this strategy when I am not with the kids.
Here is my thinking on these interactions. One, STBX is still their mother and I believe she has a right to check in on the kids. Two, it gives me a chance to show her that I am an enthusiastic and involved father, which I believe is never a bad thing. Three, it allows me another opportunity to make a positive impression on STBX, which is something I think is important to maximize at this stage in the process before I have been served D papers.
My concern about either ignoring these type of calls or being less interested while on these calls is that STBX will view it as more of the same or I will come off as not being friendly.
Thoughts and suggestions requested.
Defacto,
I'm prob not the best to ask, but I would look at what you're doing as good DB.
What I'm reading is that you are NOT pursuing. You are interacting based on HER communication and choosing to be positive and have some interest, but you are not the one initiating.
Also, you still remain mysterious. It's the balance between the two that I believe ensures you are a nice, supportive guy, who's moving on and has other things to do.
Not some lonely person who can't make it without ww and every interaction is guilt, sadness and hurt. Plus, being an amazing dad NEVER hurts.
I think she needs to see what she will be losing by choosing D. You get close to it and she sees so she tries to exhibit more control over you and then you're right back to where you started. Remember DB is the opposite of what you think you should do.
Right now she's not feeling like she's losing you - she calls, you ask about her day, basically it's more of the same of having a H but not living together and getting to date another man.
See?! THIS is where I get confused. Do you or don't you have conversations about her even if you are not the one initiating or do you just always stay dark?
As long as she is actively involved with OM and not expressing desire to work on the M I believe you stay dark. This doesn't mean you are rude but just simply busy!
When you do have interactions you put your best foot forward.
Right - so the interactions Defacto is having, how is that not his best foot forward? Because he asks about her day? That's viewed as pursuing and needs to stop while the OM is present.
I guess I understand that part of it. All of those conversations and interest in her is paused until the affair is over. Is that the gist of what you're saying?
Yes .. He can be pleasant about the children but I really don't see the need to ask her about her day? Or following up on her Dr apt...
I'm not a vet by any means but to me if I were his W. It wouldn't be attractive to me if I wAs wayward. I would think I could walk all over him and continue having my fun
Agree with TO324. It jibes with nearly everything in Sandi's WW threads, too.
Starsky
T0,
I sincerely appreciate your continued interest and insight into my sitch. I'm sure it's frustrating to see me stuck in the same behaviors we have talked about before. Thanks for hanging in there with me! As you know, it's tough to walk the tight rope.
In the interest of helping put an actionable plan together for my specific sitch, I'd like to move from the theoretical to the practical. I understand and agree with the idea of why I should pull back more from STBX, I'm just not sure how to execute it.
If STBX calls when I have the kids, should I just start ignoring her calls completely or only answer some of her calls/texts? Or, what about when STBX knows I'm at home with the kids while she's at work and she calls at her usual time, just don't pick up?
Or, pick up, be friendly while talking about kids, but ask her nothing else? Sometimes she will just begin a story about work without solicitation. Just listen, validate where applicable, and cordially move toward ending the call?
I'm sorry to be so detailed but these are the majority of our interactions right now so it's important to have a good plan of attack. I'm just concerned that I will come off as unfriendly or uncaring to STBX. Or maybe I'm overthinking it a bit?
LOL
Thanks for everyone's time.
Agree with TO324. It jibes with nearly everything in Sandi's WW threads, too.
Starsky
Thanks Starsky!
D
No problem! I want to return the favor to anyone because I owe so much to this board and the people who helped me. I required a lot of hand holding and detailed guidance! I was so afraid to do the wrong thing. There isn't one thing that will make or break your sit here - it is about consistency.
You should do some homework and read Sandi's WW threads. She was once a WW and has a TON of insight. She was also super helpful to me (along with many others). It took me awhile to get the hang of DB and once you get it you realize it is quite simple. For me I feel like I one day stopped being so concerned with how H perceived me. I was more worried about my own happiness.
My best advice is to create some boundaries first and foremost. you want to be a good coparent but you also deserve to have a life with the kids without W checking up on them and calling all the time because, let's be realistic, if you do D and remarry ... When you have the kids on your time you aren't going to be speaking several times a day to talk about the kids.
She needs to feel what it's like to lose you, that's the only way she will really decide if she ever wants to find you again. You have to make her miss you. That's why it's so important to be the best you when you do get the chance to be around her. Not pushy like you are trying to show yourself off but to be genuine.
I would ignore the calls but that's just me. Maybe Starsky has some better advice but I would ignore and if she texts just say.. Something along the lines of hey sorry I was in the middle of something. If she continues To push you should make it known that you're only interest is to discuss the children. I would limit this to text or email (also so you have a record of conversation and interactions if need be). Plan out a schedule in advance. I am a nurse also so I know my schedule at least 6 weeks out. Make the schedule as far as both of yours allow. Less reason to interact. I would absolutely not be asking her to spend time together or asking about her day. Let her OM meet those needs.
If she does call when. You have the kids you don't necessarily want to ignore her but maybe it's time to have a talk regarding this..
An email or text.. Hey W I've been thinking about this and I think in order for us to both spend quality time with the kids we should agree to one call a day or at night this way the other parent gets to speak to the kids but that we don't have to feel so tied to the phone. Let me know your thoughts on this. I want what's best for everyone and think we all deserve some down time too.
Boundaries.
When she starts to talk about work maybe you could be busy -- oh hey the kids just spilt something, I've gotta run. Etc.
You're not her H, you're not her friend. You're the father of the children. Not your job to listen to her about her day -- but always be POLITE!
I would ignore the calls but that's just me. Maybe Starsky has some better advice but I would ignore and if she texts just say.. Something along the lines of hey sorry I was in the middle of something.
Well, of course the REAL key here is to mostly really BE in the middle of something! You know, cuz you're busy, GALing, and The Most Interesting Man in the World . . . right?
But yeah, unless and until you are, then FAKE IT. I agree with everything T wrote right there^^^. Healthy boundaries are KEY in these situations, and good for BOTH of you if you think about it.
Starsky
Starsky I had just edited my post to be busy when she starts talking. About her day when you were posting
Thanks for the help
Also to add,
Expect her to get mad and throw some temper tantrums. She will start speaking in all sorts of nonsense. She will test your boundaries. Forge on and stay on them. Eventually she will get the picture.
Time for you to take control of your life.
Great advice and I really appreciate everyone taking the time to reply. Thanks for the suggestion to reread Sandi's WW threads. I will do that tonight for sure!
Journaling:
I just dropped off the kids with STBX. I had on a new outfit and I was looking sharp, but appropriate. I kept the immediate conversations about the kids and told her a story about D4 from school. STBX did make a comment that she tried to call me earlier. I told her that I must have missed it when I was out with S1. I'm not sure she was convinced by that answer but, oh well, fake it till you make it. Before I could think, I asked if everything was alright (I know! It's second nature) and she said yeah. I played with D4 for a few minutes and then said my goodbyes. STBX walked to the door to let me out. She wished me a good day back to work tomorrow. I said thanks, smiled, and wished her a good time with the kids.
That was it. I didn't want to linger like I was looking for her breadcrumbs or something.
Because STBX mentioned the missed phone call, my hunch is she will call me later to talk about whatever it was she wanted to talk about this morning. Should I go fairly dark until Friday, my next night with the kids?
YES
Do not answer any calls or initiate any. If W says D4 wants to talk to you then just keep it at that. Your busy it's your time off from the kids.
Do not ask any questions. Next time don't ask if everything is okay
Someone once told me the WAS can still sense you want them. Even if you aren't actively pursuing, it's just a way about you and the same goes for when you've dropped the rope and don't care. The poster told me even in my journaling of our interactions he could sense that.
Sorry guys. One more scenario to get your input on. STBX just texted me a cute video of kids. To reply or not to reply?
I think not.
An update from the GAL front: just got back from seeing a movie with a buddy. Now I'm watching some baseball and just trying to relax before I have to head back to work tomorrow.
A few minutes after STBX sent the video text of kids, she called me. I didn't answer. I haven't responded yet to her text either.
We'll see how this goes. Thanks for the support and encouragement today, gang.
No contact is hard enough when there are no kids involved (my sitch). I admire you and those DB'ers who can stay so strong when they must have contact with the WS because of the kids. God bless you and hang in there!
Thriver,
Thanks for the support and encouragement!
Defacto - keep it up! I have 2 kids as well. There are times when ww will text me about things she could have the kids bring when she drops them off. Those things are not important, so I let the texts go and maybe the next day I'll respond.
I've felt like there's times she'll include something related to the kids in the text, so it SEEMS to be about them/important, but it's really not.
Watch the video, enjoy it. But you don't owe her a response on it. You can always bring it up next time you interact in person. "Thanks for the video text. I always love seeing the kids" and leave it as that.
Gives her more time to miss you, you time to GAL and PMA and the strength to make continued positive interactions when you do see her.
Defacto - keep it up! I have 2 kids as well. There are times when ww will text me about things she could have the kids bring when she drops them off. Those things are not important, so I let the texts go and maybe the next day I'll respond.
I've felt like there's times she'll include something related to the kids in the text, so it SEEMS to be about them/important, but it's really not.
Watch the video, enjoy it. But you don't owe her a response on it. You can always bring it up next time you interact in person. "Thanks for the video text. I always love seeing the kids" and leave it as that.
Gives her more time to miss you, you time to GAL and PMA and the strength to make continued positive interactions when you do see her.
Rip,
Thanks brother. Your encouragement means a lot this morning, especially because are situations are so similar. My STBX will do the same thing of using the kids as a reason to contact me about something else. I am slightly worried that STBX will come to the conclusion that I don't care about the kids and am a bad father, but I know that's not true.
Hey everyone, I have a kind of goofy question that I would like some opinions on.
As you can tell from my sitch, STBX and I are active on social media, mainly on Instagram. STBX has read a lot into who likes her pictures and who follows her on Instagram. I wouldn't put it past her to use Instagram as a method of keeping tabs on me and what I am up to. My general rule on "liking" her pictures is I will like the picture as long as it's of the kids and as long as I am not GAL'ing.
Does anyone have thoughts on this?
Hey everyone, I have a kind of goofy question that I would like some opinions on.
As you can tell from my sitch, STBX and I are active on social media, mainly on Instagram. STBX has read a lot into who likes her pictures and who follows her on Instagram. I wouldn't put it past her to use Instagram as a method of keeping tabs on me and what I am up to. My general rule on "liking" her pictures is I will like the picture as long as it's of the kids and as long as I am not GAL'ing.
Does anyone have thoughts on this?
Yes. My thought is that you still have way too many thoughts about what your wife thinks about things you do.
Starsky
Hey everyone, I have a kind of goofy question that I would like some opinions on.
As you can tell from my sitch, STBX and I are active on social media, mainly on Instagram. STBX has read a lot into who likes her pictures and who follows her on Instagram. I wouldn't put it past her to use Instagram as a method of keeping tabs on me and what I am up to. My general rule on "liking" her pictures is I will like the picture as long as it's of the kids and as long as I am not GAL'ing.
Does anyone have thoughts on this?
Yes. My thought is that you still have way too many thoughts about what your wife thinks about things you do.
Starsky
Yup. I agree 100%. LOL.
Fake it till you make it.
I certainly have a long way to go.
Detachment is an ATTITUDE, Defacto. Everything that T and others have advised you above is really just an overall demeanor and attitude that you have to put on like a suit. Once you get there, the strategy will flow from the attitude, and the tactics that you ask so much about will flow from the strategy.
Change your FOCUS. Put it on YOU and YOUR KIDS, and on DOING THE RIGHT THING in every situation. The rest will start to come naturally to you, I promise.
Stop trying to get a reaction out of your wife. LEAVE HER BE.
Starsky
And this ^^^
Is why I specifically mentioned yesterday ... Even though you think you're playing it calm cool and collected ... I'm sure your W can sense she still has you on the hook.
Come on. We all know you can do better than this. Take our advice and just try it for a few weeks
You got this Defacto. Use the time for you and your kids. All the DBing techniques are there for you. There is a chance by doing that it COULD draw your WW closer, but from what I've read, that only happens is you truly detach and do it for you.
Easier said than done, but you can't drop the rope unless you let go with both hands and walk away.
Have a great time taking care of yourself!
Thanks gang! I appreciate the genuine concern and interest in my sitch! The 2x4s are much needed. That's what this place is all about.
I certainly feel like I've regressed in the detachment category. I'm not sure what set this off but it could've been my vacation. Or maybe the vacation exposed the false detachment. Either way, I need to wake up each day and committ to a healthy mind state. If I think of my actions as relating to soliciting responses from STBX, I need to stop and correct myself.
All the detailed questions may also coincide with how much I personally find comfort in routine. Subconsciously, I assume that if I just get a strategy for every preconcievable situation, I won't have to think, I can just react like instinct. However, I think this goes to confirm the points Starsky, T0, Rip, and others have been making all along. If I truly have the proper mindset, my instinct will already be the correct response.
Needless to say, thanks to all for the constructive criticism. I obviously need the guidance right now.
However, I think this goes to confirm the points Starsky, T0, Rip, and others have been making all along. If I truly have the proper mindset, my instinct will already be the correct response.
I certainly feel like I've regressed in the detachment category. I'm not sure what set this off but it could've been my vacation. Or maybe the vacation exposed the false detachment. Either way, I need to wake up each day and committ to a healthy mind state. If I think of my actions as relating to soliciting responses from STBX, I need to stop and correct myself.
DF ... just chiming in here ... read up on your sitch .. well the past few weeks anyways. Detachment is a tough one, but the reason I think, .. reading your changes.. for you the reason you all the sudden feel like you got sucked in was because you have been GAL'ing, taking advice and your WAW has been pursuing you ... sucking you back in ... its a tough line as your emotions are tugging that she is being nice, she is TM me, calling me ... truth is she is testing.
This happens, you are doing quite well but take the advice of TO and Starsky ... keep at it, even if it feels like hard ball ... you are not going to nice your WAW back into the M, she has to respect you first, she is not going to respect a cute puppy that wants his belly rubbed just because she was nice to him ... she will however respect that German sheppard that will snap at her if she crosses a boundary.
As far as the kids ... yeah you have to lock that down, she knows thats the 'in' with you ... mine did that too. I was given great advice and will share with you concerning calls/TM.
Emergencies -Reply immediately
Stuff concerning Kids 15-20 minutes
Anything else 2 hours or a nonreply You choose.
As far as the Social media .. I 'unfriended' my W ... she asked why, gave me the "I know we are divorcing but we can still be friends for S's sake" ... my reply was simple, Make no mistake, if we D we will not be friends, I will co-parent with you to the best of my ability but I am not interested in a friendship, I would never keep a 'friend' who left me like you did and cheated on me with an OP ..... D is not want I want but I respect your choice.
Sometimes you have to draw a hard line in this, you do not have to be mean nor bitter, just firm kind and very matter of fact.
Totally agree with Caliguy. I told my wife in no uncertain terms that I would not be her friend if we divorced. Friends don't do what our WS have done to us.
Stay strong and walk the walk. Be cordial, firm, and calm. My wife was convinced that I was living large, footloose and fancy free. I wasn't, of course, but it just goes to show you that the process works.
DF ... just chiming in here ... read up on your sitch .. well the past few weeks anyways. Detachment is a tough one, but the reason I think, .. reading your changes.. for you the reason you all the sudden feel like you got sucked in was because you have been GAL'ing, taking advice and your WAW has been pursuing you ... sucking you back in ... its a tough line as your emotions are tugging that she is being nice, she is TM me, calling me ... truth is she is testing.
This happens, you are doing quite well but take the advice of TO and Starsky ... keep at it, even if it feels like hard ball ... you are not going to nice your WAW back into the M, she has to respect you first, she is not going to respect a cute puppy that wants his belly rubbed just because she was nice to him ... she will however respect that German sheppard that will snap at her if she crosses a boundary.
As far as the kids ... yeah you have to lock that down, she knows thats the 'in' with you ... mine did that too. I was given great advice and will share with you concerning calls/TM.
Emergencies -Reply immediately
Stuff concerning Kids 15-20 minutes
Anything else 2 hours or a nonreply You choose.
As far as the Social media .. I 'unfriended' my W ... she asked why, gave me the "I know we are divorcing but we can still be friends for S's sake" ... my reply was simple, Make no mistake, if we D we will not be friends, I will co-parent with you to the best of my ability but I am not interested in a friendship, I would never keep a 'friend' who left me like you did and cheated on me with an OP ..... D is not want I want but I respect your choice.
Sometimes you have to draw a hard line in this, you do not have to be mean nor bitter, just firm kind and very matter of fact.
CaliGuy,
Thanks for the support. Obviously, I've been stressing as of late about everything so I appreciate the vote of confidence.
I hate that the kids are in the middle of this. Of course, that's what happens in a D. While I was out shopping, STBX facetimed me. That's usually the method of communication she will take if the kids want to talk with me at night. Of course, it wasn't appropriate to answer at the store nor was I ready to talk anyway. But, it hurt so bad, just feels so wrong, not being able to talk with my kids.
Totally agree with Caliguy. I told my wife in no uncertain terms that I would not be her friend if we divorced. Friends don't do what our WS have done to us.
Stay strong and walk the walk. Be cordial, firm, and calm. My wife was convinced that I was living large, footloose and fancy free. I wasn't, of course, but it just goes to show you that the process works.
Kramer,
The support means a lot, especially with the recent breakthrough in your sitch. While I haven't had the formal talk with STBX about not being friends, I think she will be getting the point with my lack of response.
Journaling:
Yesterday was a pretty good day. My day back at work after the vacation was pretty stress free. After work, I went for a jog, laid out and read a chapter of my new book at the pool, did some grocery shopping, picked up some new music CDs at the library, and met up with a pal for a few beers. It felt great to be busy.
While I was out with my friend, STBX sent an adorable text about D4. It really made me smile. It also reminded me how much I miss being with my kids 100% of the time. I thought about replying but I decided against it. I realized I was overthinking it and was worrying about what STBX would think so I just did nothing.
Time to begin another day and keep myself focused. I'm looking forward to my DB coaching session this afternoon too. It's been a month or so since my last one.
Glad for a good day defacto. Staying busy while expanding your "network" is so important. Keep it up. You can do it.
Yesterday was a pretty good day. My day back at work after the vacation was pretty stress free. After work, I went for a jog, laid out and read a chapter of my new book at the pool, did some grocery shopping, picked up some new music CDs at the library, and met up with a pal for a few beers. It felt great to be busy.
That's awesome! Way to stay busy. I agree, the DB session should be good, especially with the ups and downs you've been feeling lately. They should be able to give you additional tips specific to your sitch that can help with detaching and not pursuing.
Glad to hear it - keep it up!
Thanks Matt and Rip!
Ok, detachment and text experts I need your help! STBX called twice this morning. I didn't answer either call. She then follows it up with this text message:
"Let me know if ignoring phone calls and texts is the new normal so I can know who I should contact in case of emergency."
I feel that I should respond as this is my chance to set a boundary even though it appears it is just another power move on her part.
Possible reply:
"Hey. Hope you are well. I've been super busy. It's ok to call or text about the kids."
Thoughts? Or should I not even reply?
Sounds like she's testing and wanting control back. Wanting to make sure you are still there.
I'd keep it short. Maybe something like:
"Sorry, I've been busy. If there's an emergency regarding the kids, I'd want you to call/text me. I'll make myself available when it concerns them."
Sounds like she's testing and wanting control back. Wanting to make sure you are still there.
I'd keep it short. Maybe something like:
"Sorry, I've been busy. If there's an emergency regarding the kids, I'd want you to call/text me. I'll make myself available when it concerns them."
I agree. If she had an actual emergency, she would've let me know.
I dig your text edits. However, I don't want to apologize for being busy. I have considered not giving her any explanation there too.
Here's what I got now:
"Hi. I've been super busy. If there is an emergency with the kids, please call or text me. I'll make myself available when it concerns them."
Just thought I'd share what STBX just texted me.
"Great. You've chosen to make this ugly. Good job."
I haven't replied to either text. But I do plan on replying to the first text. No need to hurry though. Gives the vets a chance to respond.
Yes. YOU have chosen this path. Sigh.
I'd give advice but I'm terrible at these kinds of interactions.
Def
Its about control, she is trying to control you and your actions by using the kids. When I started detaching the W HATED it ... she blew up my phone one morning, TM and calls ... then I get a TM "We got into an accident please call" I immediately called and asked if they were ok, she started in on me ... I stopped her and told her it was obvious there was no emergency, no crash, I had no desire to speak with her .... told her to think about what she just did becuase next time when there actually might be a real emergency it will not be my fault for not responding to her cyring wolf game.
When we set boundaries .. they WILL test them
I would simply TM back asking her if there was an emergency you are more than available .. otherwise do not expect a rapid response as you now have a new life (not one you asked for) and will do the best you can to move on.
Short and simple .. then once again go dark.
Sounds like your W is losing her grip and it is making her nervous. She is trying to maintain control over you. Although it sounds like she is accusing you of "making it ugly", she is actually threatening that she is going to "make it ugly". Can she? Truly? The vets will tell you that WW is a "paper tigress" and that our fear of WW is based on a faulty perception of them. I *hope* a vet will chime in about this. I would never respond to this because you will not convince her otherwise. She will blame you regardless. Everything she does is to justify her own improper actions.
In the meantime, keep your chin up and consider it the ramblings of someone who is completely removed from reality.
Best,
RAI
Seems like Caliguy and I are of the same mind. It is about control. Nothing else.
RAI
P.S. Caliguy, our sitches are very similar. Right down to the BD timing. I have been meaning to check out your thread in more detail. Just haven't had time.
Sounds like she's testing and wanting control back. Wanting to make sure you are still there.
I'd keep it short. Maybe something like:
"Sorry, I've been busy. If there's an emergency regarding the kids, I'd want you to call/text me. I'll make myself available when it concerns them."
I agree. If she had an actual emergency, she would've let me know.
I dig your text edits. However, I don't want to apologize for being busy. I have considered not giving her any explanation there too.
Here's what I got now:
"Hi. I've been super busy. If there is an emergency with the kids, please call or text me. I'll make myself available when it concerns them."
Perfect.
Starsky
I would simply TM back asking her if there was an emergency you are more than available .. otherwise do not expect a rapid response as you now have a new life (not one you asked for) and will do the best you can to move on.
Short and simple .. then once again go dark.
This is good too.
Just finished up with my DB coach. At first, it felt like she was trying to steer me away from going darker. But, after talking through it a bit, she agreed with my approach. No major breakthroughs, just encouragement and some role plays, for when STBX brings everything up.
After my coaching, I sent STBX my revised text:
Hi. I've been super busy. If there is an emergency with the kids, please call or text me. I'll make myself available when it concerns them.
It definitely feels good to get the boundary out there.
YES! It's short and the boundary is definitely implied without it specifically saying - I'm available for them NOT you - which could be read as ugly.
You're busy GAL, but never too busy for your children.