He wakes up in the morning
Does his teeth bite to eat and he's rolling
Never changes a thing
The week ends the week begins
She thinks, we look at each other
Wondering what the other is thinking
But we never say a thing
These crimes between us grow deeper
...
Take these chances
Place them in a box until a quieter time
Lights down, you up and die
...
And all the little ants are marching
Red and black antennas waving
They all do it the same
They all do it the same way(Dave Matthews Band - abbreviated)
Sums it up really - H and I were just two people too caught up in the daily grind to see what was going on. Also, a good D(M)B song (see how I did that?) to rock out to. Nothing like singing "Take these chan-CES" at the top of your lungs.
Old threads
here.
Thanks everyone for your continuing support. Special shout out to Zues, Jim0987, Edz, LisaB, Vanilla, Calibri, Zelda, Ggrass...and of course my sister in all of this, Toots. And you - yeah you reading this - you too. You're a part of my journey, too.
Oh, oh! Me, pick me! I get to be the first to post on gan's new thread. Woo hoo!
First in on Gan's thread!
Thanks a lot Sunny. You always do that...;)
You have to be sharp to be ahead of me Zues. I have no doubt that you could. But you didn't today......ha!
You guys crack me up.
So. What should we take about on this thread then?
Gan, I don't even know what to talk about on my own thread. If I'd give up the notion that H should be nice to me then I have nothing left to say about my sich. What's important to you these days?
Gan, I hear you. Our sitches get to that point where there's just nothing to report..I waffle on about this and that, but there's very little happening with my sitch just now.
Can I ask you - save me looking back - how far geographically is your H from you now? Are there any non-pursuing opportunities for potential contact approaching??
Love the song, Gan.
What is your biggest goal this year? What is the big thing for your fresh new happiness?
Nothing happening is really something huge.
That is either the dawn before the storm or the dawn storm. Thunder, lightening and lashing rain. Keeps you steady, would love a little of that at the moment.
V
Toots, Zelda, V, SunnyB - thanks for dropping by. Been a busy (and good) week. Will post an update when I get home from work.
Morning Gan (UK Time)
Busy finishing your Papier Mache Moose I hope
So do you have a title for your paper yet?
Ok I lied. Didn't get on last night and now I'm at the airport en route to Uganda. Will post from Dubai....not that there is much to say!
You're such as jet setter gan. What a glamourous life you lead despite this minor set back. :-)
Greetings from Dubai where I am 6hrs in to an 8hr layover. Ugh.
Not much to report from the week. GAL score = average (2 x yoga + trivia with colleagues). Looks like work will be sending me to Canada at the end of August. Also a really promising post-grad dropped out of the sky during the week to ask if I would support her post-doc scholarship thingy. It will be really good if she gets it! No, Jim I’ve not yet got the titles for those papers yet – they are a ways off given where we are at in the research.
Still trying to wrap my head around the flight just past. I sat next to a guy who works at another university to me (different discipline). After exchanging pleasantries we chatted a while, then a bit longer, then pretty much the whole flight actually except a couple of movies and nap here and there. It’s a 14 hr flight, people! At one point I noticed him looking at my hand to see if I was wearing a ring…then eventually he referred to the fact that I wasn’t. By this point I’d noticed that he *was* wearing a ring and eventually he talked about his wife and kids. Seems happily married enough. Eventually I got into a little of my story. But there were plenty of references to me being pretty, romantic gestures, and stuff I wouldn’t usually discuss with total strangers. He asked what I was going to do with my long layover and then pointed out there was a hotel in the airport (!?) Later I asked what he was going to do with his layover, to which he responded he was going to ask me for coffee. So we grabbed a drink in Dubai and went our separate ways. I am so out of the whole dating/romance thing I really couldn’t tell if this was a benign conversation or not. Certainly it’s not my usual long haul experience! Did I mention he was French?
And of course…no word from H.
So now you see how affairs start.
Hmm, I agree with Cadet. Sounds like he may have been hoping for more than coffee. Shame to think of his W sitting at home wondering how his flight was going....
Glad it ended up just being a coffee, and hope the rest of your trip goes well!!
Hi Gan, sounds like an interesting flight! At least it kept you entertained. But yeah, sounds like he was hoping to join the mile high club with you.
It sounds like you are indeed in the same confused boat as I am, being new to this flirting game. "Is he asking me to have sex in the airport hotel or telling me it looks like I need a shower and a nap?" haha. Seems you handled it well.
I hope your travels are fun and safe!
hugs, Lisa
Interesting story, Gan. Crazy how bold people can be.
Ugh, LisaB and Gan, just the idea of dating again makes me nauseous. I can imagine how confusing it has to be at the start of entering back in that world.
Lol Gan, idk if benign is even on the multiple choice list here
I read this and all I can think - and lately every time I encounter a group of men - are any of them honest people? How many are slimy under their pretty manners?
Hope you're doing something fun for you.
Yeah, I think mention of a hotel room is pretty sleazy. I'm surprised you continued your conversation after that but it sounds like at the time it seemed more innocent than it does to some of us.
Agreed that I feel for the W at home. But no matter what, she can be proud of who she is when she looks in the mirror (that's assuming she's a wonderful person
)
I can assure all of you that there are many men that would never cheat on their wives. Just as I keep reminding myself there are many women that wouldn't throw away a man like that.
Either way, we get out of our lives what we put in. And I'm realizing that while there's nothing I'd love more than a partnership with a committed and mature woman, I'm not going to let someone else's destructive choices rain on my parade either. I've got too much candy to throw to the crowds. Whatever that even means.
Nah...didn't seem sleazy at the time. He didn't say "we could get a hotel" - I'd have stopped the convo there if so. He was suggesting I could get a hotel. I'd have thought nothing of it were it not for the fact that there were a lot of compliments and other nuanced stuff in the conversation.
One thing it did highlight is, having been with one guy for so long, I feel like I don't know how to take compliments on my appearance from other men. Is it a sign that they're game if I am, or do some men just compliment random ladies and not mean anything more by it?
So now you see how affairs start.
FWIW, I second this as well. I used to travel A LOT for work, and being happily married I never would have hit on someone like this on a plane or in an airport. My main focus was missing my wife and getting home.
While I think it's a positive towards you and could be conceived complimentary, this particular guy still seems suspect in my book.
Having said that, regardless of motive, I've never known anyone to compliment someone if they didn't find them attractive, so I say good for you and enjoy the attention, even if it's just for the moment!
Will post an "update" later. For now just wanted to acknowledge the sad news about the death of Nobel laureate John Nash (who the film Beautiful Mind is about) and his wife. He battled schizophrenia.
I noticed in the news reports that they were married in 1957 and divorced in 1963...then re-married in 2001!!!
Thanks for stopping by my thread Gan! I did know that John Nash and his wife remarried (when the movie reviews came out some of them mentioned it, along with his infidelity) but I had no idea there was such a long gap in between. 38 years! And apparently Stephen Hawking is much closer again to his first wife. I guess you never know what life will bring, particularly if you are a Nobel Prize Winner.
Hope you are doing well.
Wow, that is a long gap! Welcome back Gan & thanks for your post. I hope your trip went well. Any news of your H recently??
Looking forward to your update ;-)
Anyway, you ladies - raliced, Maybell and SunnyB (and Ahoy - haven't seen her lately?) - have been a feature of my journey since the beginning. Although I can't relate to the parental challenges you talk about on here (and so I don't post on your threads very often), know that I've found a lot of inspiration in the strength you show on here. You are such wonderful role models to your children.
Gan, I thought this was really sweet. You and I have the same BD month, and I feel like I'm such a different person than I was then. The people on these boards have been my lifeline, even if they didn't know it. I'm glad to hear someone else has benefitted from my path.
Welcome back gan. How is it that you are such a jet setter? If it doesn't give too much away.
And I thought 'ants marching' was a photoshop reference.
OD - I'm employed by a university and do research in Uganda/Tanzania. Better not say more than that. Actually, I've discovered that I have dropped enough hints since the beginning that someone could string it all together and google me*.
I'm still waiting for you to do the big reveal and tell us you were the guitarist from Pink Floyd or something.
* If you find me....be sure to look me up IRL ;-)
Hi Gan,
So how was uganda? any more debatable travel companions on the flight back?
So when looking at your timelines does the nobel prize make a difference?
I was a guitarist in 'something' a long time ago now. Not Pink Floyd though: not even the Australian Pink Floyd. I did play in Oz & NZ in the late 80s but never got to Africa.
I have cousins in RSA, maybe one day I can visit them.
Old Dog: Can't believe you even know about Australian Pink Floyd, OD. Hmmmm...so a guitarist in a band that made it all the way to Australia in the late '80s. That narrows it down a wee bit... ;-)
Jim: Uganda was good as always. Plane flight back was dull by comparison though...
Dang you two are peaking my google investigative curiosity!!!!!
WW actually worked alongside the wife of the OZ Pink Floyd guitarist a few years ago. They lived about half an hour away.
It was for a short time so we never manage to blag a guest pass in the that time though.
Careful there, Jim. Remember the asterisk bit!
Wait OD, so Australian Pink Floyd live in the UK? That seems a bit off!
So, time for a more meaty update.
First I wanted to acknowledge all the people who have come with me on this journey - either through posting here or offering insights on their own threads: the UK crew (Vanilla, Toots, Edz, Jim, Old Dog), the lovely mummies (Maybell, Ahoy, SunnyB, Raliced, Claire), the Martians (Mozza, Zues), da ladies (LisaB, Zelda, Calibri), and my mates downunder (Ggrass, Vossy) (with apologies to anyone I’ve forgotten). Weird to feel so connected to you all without ever actually meeting you. I also wanted to thank the vets who generously give their time on these forums (MrBond, Cadet, Wonka, Starsky, Sandi…and a special thanks to Labug, who posted here only a few times but guided and inspired me more than than she will ever know as I read (and re-read) her threads).
It seems many in my “cohort” have reached a point where things are as they are and we’re generally feeling ok. I’m no different in this respect. Life is good and I continue to be amazed at how much I have learned about myself the past year. I really didn’t realise how much of me had been swept up in relationship-land.
I continue to be fascinated by Myers-Briggs personality types. Being aware that I am an ISTJ makes it easier to see why I respond to situations the way I do, and why others react differently. Best of all I feel more able to accept those parts of me that I didn’t always like - it’s a package deal and while I can and do try to work on my weaknesses, I also accept that they come along with many of the things that I appreciate about myself. Being as ISTJ probably contributed to some of the problems in my M, but they also contributed to me being fairly resilient throughout its end…and explain to a large extent why I have continued to stand:
"Since the ISTJ is so willing to work hard at issues, and so tireless at performing tasks which they feel should be done, the ISTJ generally makes a wonderful, caring mate who is willing and able to promote a healthy, lasting relationship which is also a partnership.” (Source: some website)
On a separate note, the other thing I’ve been mulling over lately is if/when to start actively dating. “Plane-gate” left me a bit rattled. I confess I was flattered by the whole thing and enjoyed the male attention. But he was a married man and I had no intention on letting it go further even if my mind did get caught up a little in the whole idea. So yes, I get how easily affairs must happen. On the other hand, what I’ve learned from this is that I am going to be very vulnerable if/when I do start dating. I’m undecided about what to do with that at the moment.
As for H? Well, I can’t really see things turning around from here. I’m about a week away from a year to the day that H moved out. We can now file for D. I have no intention on doing so for now but have started to feel a bit more anxious when I open the mail box.
Throughout this I have mostly felt compassion for him, not anger. I do still have moments of sadness and have a little cry every now and then. Not in a needy way. I’m just sad that he couldn’t find it in himself to work on our M. Despite the generally ok vibes I have towards him, I have noticed that I still have difficulty wishing him well in what ever direction he goes. I mean I want him to be happy of course, but part of me still wishes that he is unhappy so that he questions his decision (still more work to do on detaching - clearly). With such limited contact - and no "inbetweeners" - I have no idea where he’s at actually….but if I play the numbers based on what I read here about WAS he may not be faring so well. That saddens me.
So…take home is I am doing well, ever discovering me and the world around me and awaiting new adventures.
Wait OD, so Australian Pink Floyd live in the UK? That seems a bit off!
The guitarist in question had almost retired I think. He certainly lived here and only did UK & maybe European tours at that time.
Hi Gan,
Thanks for the update on where you are at.
without that interaction or go between its difficult to know exactly where he is at - equally even if you did it wouldn't necessarily be that reliable as people present an image of what they want to convey
Best of all I feel more able to accept those parts of me that I didn’t always like - it’s a package deal and while I can and do try to work on my weaknesses, I also accept that they come along with many of the things that I appreciate about myself.
I just highlighted this because it seems really healthy. some of the traits that cause difficulties in one area of our life are the same traits that allow us to excel in others, we just need to learn to tailor our approach to the circumstances
in terms of 'actively dating' how does that represent a change for you, as you're an ISTJ I assume that means a particular change in your (probably very rational) approach to things?
as for the asterix - well theres a danger there that if i'm wrong then your colleague gets a very strange email
hope you have a good day
Hi gan!
Good to read your update. I was thinking about you today when analyzing my sitch.
I was thinking about how difficult it must be for you, not really knowing what is in your H's head, not knowing that there is an OW, not having those hard and horrible facts. I was also thinking about how nice that is, not to have those "facts" popping into your head all the time - visions of them kissing or texts between them that you discovered and read. I suppose either way is difficult. But I do feel for you, your situation is rather unresolved and mysterious and it would drive me crazy.
But it is so admirable how you have taken this time to look within yourself and try to improve things you found lacking. You seem like such a great person. You should be very proud of yourself.
Whatever the reasons your H chose to leave, he is a fool. And whatever happens in the future you deserve the ultimate happiness.
I'm around that one year anniversary too and it's funny how things have changed yet remain the same. Still unresolved and uncertain but at least the horrible heartache has mostly passed. I'm glad that we could all be buddies through this process.
Hope you are having a good day!
Hugs, Lisa
So, time for a more meaty update.
First I wanted to acknowledge all the people who have come with me on this journey - the lovely mummies (Maybell, Ahoy, SunnyB, Raliced, Claire)
This was sweet, gan, thanks.
And you guys are way over my head with Australian Pink Floyd and asterisks......
Jim: I guess for a while now I've been open to the idea of getting to know a guy if someone were to cross my path and I was interested. I've not really put myself in situations where that kind of thing is happening much though. So I guess for me the next step would be signing up to an online dating site and seeing what unfolds. That being said, I did have a look at OKC the other day...and really struggled with the idea of connecting up with someone who puts up a dodgy photo and chooses a stoopid namesake. I may just have to get over myself though...
Lisa: Thanks for your kind words. Yeah hard to know if things are resolved or not. No more or less than anyone else's situation here I guess (though decidedly more dark than most). H has told me he's been on some dates and so my mind could go there if I let it. I think I've just accepted that he's gotta do what he's gotta do in order to find his way out of this. Maybe he'll come knocking on my door when he does, in which case I'll just have to see where my heart/head is at at that time.
Treated myself to a spot of shopping and a spa pedi yesterday (only the second time I've ever done that!) Another 30km walk today + yoga. It's been nice seeing a few familiar faces on the walks (Meetup group). Plan to catch up with a girl I met at another Meetup event during the week.
A post...in celebration (?) of the 1-year anniversary since H moved out. H can now file.
Been an interesting start to the week (in gan's world anyway) :
1. Monday night GAL with new Meetup BFF. She's on a similar journey, having separated from her H about 6 months ago...though she has no plans to save that M (affair was deal breaker for her). I think we will have some fun GALing in the city. Today we shared text tales of hosiery malfunctions...
2. Just participated in my first non-violent communication practice group meeting. For those following the "riveting tales of gan" I read the book a while ago and recommended people here might like to check out the videos by Rosenburg on Youtube. He uses jackal and giraffe hand puppets to demonstrate "violent" and "non-violent" approaches to communication. The founding premise is that we all have needs that are the same regardless of culture, gender etc (e.g. to be connected, to be safe, to be appreciated). When these needs are being met we feel certain feelings (like happiness, excitement); when they aren't being met we have different feelings (like sadness, hopelessness, frustration). These serve as common ground - a way to connect with others.
Tonight we practiced listening with empathy. In NVC, you listen and make guesses about how the other person might be feeling and what needs are being unmet. Not important whether you get it right or wrong; by taking a guess, it give's the person an opportunity to clarify and for you to better understand. It looks like this:
A (experienced NVC practitioner): So tell us a little about what is going on with you at the moment, B.
B (novice): I'm feeling a little lost in life, just broke up with my BF, not sure about my career etc etc...
A: Oh, so it sounds like you are overwhelmed because you don't have much clarity about the future?
B (opens up more): Yes! I feel like X, Y, Z....
A: Mmm...so you are lonely and you miss being close to another person?
B: Sort of. I guess I do feel lonely....
etc etc
It was actually really interesting to hear B open up (she got quite emotional). She explained at the end that she felt really good knowing that others could identify with her feelings. She also found it useful to have other people put a label on her feelings.
One thing I found enlightening was just the notion of creating space for the other person. I think in some ways I thought empathy was about relating your own experiences...but that takes the focus off the other person and on to you. I asked the facilitator about this - how do you hold back and just allow the other person to talk rather than jump in with your own experiences and how you felt with it (ahem...Mr(s) Fixit). She made a couple of suggestions which I thought might be useful to people here:
1. Ask yourself what need of MINE am I trying to fill by fixing this;
2. After you've done a little to and fro with guessing at the feelings and needs, if you do see a solution say something like "I've got a strategy that I tried when I was in a similar session. Would you like to hear it?"
Next session is next week. Think I'll pull out the book and videos again for a refresh...
Hi Gan, just wanted to wish you well on your antiversary. Ours is in July, so I'm not at the year mark yet, but I'm not far behind you.
Sounds like you've been having an interesting week. I've also been enjoying new friendships & have been out a couple of times with a woman whose H was unfaithful. It's nice to spend time with people who have been through it. I feel no inclination to date at all, but I'm enjoying female friendships just now.
Interesting on the communication workshop too. I haven't ever watched the jackal, giraffe etc stuff - maybe time for me to take a look?
Take care Gan xx
Toots, LOL Antiversary. So funny!
Gan, so interesting to read about that non-violent communication meeting. I saw myself in your example! I find it pretty easy to connect with people but I do tend to use a lot of "I get what you are feeling - here is my similar story." And never really thought about how to connect in a different way. This is super interesting. Thanks for sharing!
Hugs, Lisa
Thanks, Toots and Lisa. Yeah the NVC stuff is really quite interesting. The phone-based practice groups are running over a 4 weeks (free) and then I think the plan is to have a workshop (paid). If the next few calls are similar to the first then I'd be keen to attend the latter. Methinks Gg and Jim would like it also.
I think in some ways I thought empathy was about relating your own experiences...but that takes the focus off the other person and on to you.
This has never occurred to me before, but makes perfect sense on how I saw being empathetic. Thanks for posting this and the suggestions given by the facilitator, one more thing I need to work on changing!
Side note: as a fellow D(M)B fan I have to ask - favorite song? I've always been a Bartender person myself, but recently came across Mercy and it's making a run towards the top.
I love reading your adventures. My intrepid explorer friend who visits Uganda a country I love on a continent I adore.
Gan there is a different space in travelling our journey with each other in current cyber time. In years to come, new DBers will read the threads to know and perceive the wisdom and advice. As we travel and apply that advice we impact each other's lives as we go. There is a sense in which empathy, sympathy and even controversial views can be insightful and resonate.
The jackal has his role to play, Jackal talk can be a 180 for a giraffe, doing that which works rather than that which we percieve to be the higher ground.
My sitch needed a little Jackal edginess, and I suspect there are occasions when yours does too. It is knowing how and when to switch and manage.
Giraffe ears are useful but a jackal mouth can achieve results too.
Jackals can protect against the predator.
V
Jedi79: Hmmmm...tough one. Ants Marching is up there but I'd have to say Dancing Nancies (Central Park version). I quite like Seven, too
I have to confess that I came to DMB rather late. Actually it was one of the last bands I saw live with H. Do you know John Butler Trio? Aussie band that I reckon you'll like if you are a DMB fan.
Vanilla: Yes, I see your point, though I think in my case - as I have a direct communication style that lands heavily on some ears - my goal is to become more giraffe-like.
Fun night out at trivia tonight with my team for Global Corporate Challenge (workplace stepping competition). We've signed up for WWF's Wild Onesie Week as well so had fun donning onesies earlier in the day for a team photo. If we reach our donation target we've agreed to wear our onesies when we give a lecture later in the year.
I see you as a giraffe my dear one. It's the long neck and graceful legs.
V
NVC practice group this evening. Tonight I was on the receiving end of the "empathy shower" while others practiced giving me empathy. I decided to open up about my sitch a bit, mostly because the other lady on the call was in the early stages of break up and I figured she might find it useful to hear someone who is further along in the process talk about their experiences. It was an interesting experience...being given the space to talk about my own journey while having others "take guesses" at how I might be feeling.
Me: Sometimes I feel like I live a double life. This past year has been the hardest ever on a personal front, but its not the kind of thing that I talk about at work.
Facilitator (NVC practitioner): hmmm....sounds like you feel a bit conflicted because you want to be more authentic?
Me: Yes, authentic...that's a good word for it. I feel like I'm not being authentic.
(later)
Me: There's a sadness there, but also hope...for myself...that didn't exist before.
Facilitator: hmmm...sounds like a strange thing to say, but it almost sounds like you are enjoying learning about yourself through this experience?
Me: Mmmm....I don't know if enjoyment is the right word...but yes I suppose there is a sense of fulfilment and there is joy in feeling like that yes.
The facilitator explained how the natural inclination to want to jump in and offer suggestions or relate our own experiences, often comes from our own discomfort at seeing other people feel sad etc. We want to relieve the other person's sadness, so we don't feel so uncomfortable.
That struck a chord with me. My H would sometimes say that he feels like he couldn't be sad because of the way I responded to him when he conveyed his sadness. In those moments, he was just looking for empathy.....not a way out of his sadness.
Dear Gan,
Nice catching up with you, I always get such nuggets of wisdom on my trips over here.
I can relate very much to feeling like I need to solve others' sadness. It is interesting being on the other side of that, no?
Are you still doing your yoga? What is your next big adventure just for you?
Oops, Z. Just saw your post above. Yep, still doing yoga...though other GAL plans have gotten in the way of that this week. As for my next adventure...well if you mean travel, then Canada is most likely up in August. If you are referring to something other than travel then read on to my next post...
Well...I think I finally arrived. I think I've hit the point where I just don't care what happens to the M. Sure, I feel sad that it ended but from here on in this is all about me and my journey. I wish my H well...and I think he is a fool.
Somehow, I feel like I'm able to engage more with the world and the people around me as I am today.
On Monday I went to an open mike night with a guy I met at a hiking Meetup thing a few weeks ago. He's probably 20 years older and nice company...so when he invited me I figured what the hey, I guess I can do that sort of thing. Though I have no idea what it means in the general area of "male-female relations". And I'm ok with it.
Today I also got a message from a younger, apparently smitten guy who attended the hike last weekend. I'll refrain from posting what he wrote, but it left me in stiches, poor guy. Actually, it occurs to me that I've been complimented (or propositioned!) by far more random guys in the last 6 months, than in the entirely of my 15 year R...so I guess I'm sending out something different. I'll confess it's a confidence boost and has me more curious about the dating scene. I think I am ready.
What's even nicer though, is that I will go to it with a greater understanding of who I really am, what I have to offer, and what I want from a R. While I would have preferred to come to this place through a different means, I have to say that I'm pretty happy with where I am at these days.
Newcomers - I know I found it hard to read "it will get better" when I first arrived here. I clearly remember thinking I didn't want to be here a year later. But the reality is you should take as long as you need. This time is a gift and if you treat it as such, you will reap the rewards. There's peace in me that hasn't existed in a long, long while and I think you'll find it, too, if you linger on the boards for a bit longer yet.
Newcomers - I know I found it hard to read "it will get better" when I first arrived here. I clearly remember thinking I didn't want to be here a year later. But the reality is you should take as long as you need. This time is a gift and if you treat it as such, you will reap the rewards. There's peace in me that hasn't existed in a long, long while and I think you'll find it, too, if you linger on the boards for a bit longer yet.
- there is a lot of reward in taking your knowledge and PAYING it FORWARD.
It really can help to increase your healing and understanding of this whole journey.
Mach1 says - You can give a man a fish or you can teach him how to fish.
One way he is not hungry for a day and the other way he never goes hungry.
My point is that you need to start to teach!
Newcomers - I know I found it hard to read "it will get better" when I first arrived here. I clearly remember thinking I didn't want to be here a year later. But the reality is you should take as long as you need. This time is a gift and if you treat it as such, you will reap the rewards. There's peace in me that hasn't existed in a long, long while and I think you'll find it, too, if you linger on the boards for a bit longer yet.
I certainly didn't intend to be here more than a few months. My entire plan was to wait it out until H lost his infatuation with the duck and then we could work it out. That's didn't work out for me.
But I totally agree with you, gan, that there's a peace available if you'll put in the work, and the work takes time. Its been over a year since BD, and I'm still learning things. Truth is, if I'm smart, that process of learning will last forever.
It's funny I know I am here for a long time. I have a lot of healing to do.
BD was 16 months ago, lurked on the board for 5 months then October I took the risk. I have learned so much.
From Gan and Sunny!
V
Yesterday, after I told a couple of people at work about 5LL, almost everyone in our dept did the online questionnaire.
It was so funny, and I hope helpful, as people began to recognise how some action by their partner gave them the hump.
There is a young lass who was married recently who I'm sure this could help with. She admitted being irritated by some of the things her husband was doing - classic acts of service, to which she was thinking 'why is he doing this, I'm not disabled'. She was able to see what he's doing now.
OD, I've also had discussions with a work colleague about 5LL (he'd read the book with his W). Actually I think 5LL totally plays in work relationships, too. He's acts of service guy...and in the workplace it translates to him fining it hard to say no to people. Some people exploit it. I don't because I recognise this is where he is coming from (and he appreciates that I recognise it). I've also realised why I like to work with some people but not others - one of the defining features of the former is that they use words to express their appreciation for my input. Words of affirmation is my main LL, with physical touch a close second...and I don't find that at work
Well, it's been a big couple of weeks for me. On the work front, I learned a paper has just been accepted to a pretty big journal. Plus I'm nearing completion of a chapter for a book. Whereas a year ago I was feeling pretty dispirited about work, I feel like things have tipped in the balance of "I've got a lot of big and exciting things happening." I'm also feeling like I have more work life balance than in years. I've settled into a good pattern of doing yoga 3X per week, some sort of social activity at least 1X during the week, and a big hike on the weekend with a Meetup group. I'm training as a reserve for a team-based, 100km charity walk later in the year...and am "auditioning" for a team on a 55km hike this weekend...eek. Training for that is reconnecting me to one of my pet interests - technical gear! I splurged on some new trail running shoes on the weekend and some compression leggings are in the mail. I'm also the team leader for a workplace stepping challenge and plan to get into the habit of doing a morning run at least a couple of times a week...around the Opera House no less ;-).
Coffee guy is a bit too hot and cold these days. Some days he engages, others he seems to ignore. He's busy, I'll give him that but whatever. I've decided I'll ignore him for a bit.
Smitten Meetup guy sent me a poem which I elected to ignore
Actually it occurs to me that Meetup could potentially be a great aid for a stalker because you can see when people sign up to things.
Other Meetup guy, well that one is interesting. Since going out a week ago, we've exchanged emails almost daily and he's invited me to various things that he's going to. I'm not really sure what to do. On my side, I'm not interested in anything more than friendship and I have no idea what he's thinking at this point. I definitely don't want to lead him on...but don't know if/when/how to broach the topic. While I'm not discounting an R on age alone, I estimate that he's is around 55 yo, so I'm having some difficulty figuring out just which bucket this fits into. I mean, I can hang out with whomever I want, obviously, but it's.....unconventional. Actually, OD, he reminds me a bit of you. Do you have any insights to offer here?
Well no sooner did I write the post above...and the other Meetup guy sends me an email "hoping we can catch up and get to know each other better. If you feel similarly..." So I think the moment has arrived to broach the topic...
Bah...it's a brave new world out there.
I don't know if it appears obvious to you, but reading your message from June 22, it seems quite clear that you put yourself and others in complicated situation with the hope of avoiding "awkwardness".
Tell Smitten Meetup Guy upfront that you are not interested. It will be awkward for one email and then everything will be clear for all involved. Right now, he's spending all that time thinking about you and composing poems, all in vain. His energy would be much better invested into someone else. Be kind to him and tell him you're not interested.
Engage Coffee Guy as much as you want, without having expectations of him replying a certain amount. If he's not responsive enough for you, drop him, but don't send complex silent signals with the hope of getting him to react. That's a covert contract and it leads to hell.
I'm glad to see that Other Meetup Guy has had the balls to be more direct because it will clear things up. It's now your responsibility to reply clearly to him and tell him that while you enjoy his company, you should be clear that you're not really looking for anything more with him. Like Smitten Meetup Guy, he will then be able to focus his attention where he might get what he wants.
Bonus: you'll be clear too and free to think about other things than people in whom you're not interested.
This might all seem very difficult to you, but I will suggest that you use the three gentlemen as testing grounds and just go ahead and be direct with them. See what happens. DBing is a learning experience and this sounds like a great opportunity.
I don't know your history all that much, so I'm not sure how much this avoidance has played a role in your life. I can tell you that it did mightily in mine up until separation. Then therapy came, with several readings and they all said the same thing: "Stop trying to be nice and be honest." I was so nice to a girl, years ago, that I got into a serious relationship with her (we even moved in) because I didn't have the guts to tell her I didn't want to spend my life with her. When I broke up with her, she was devastated, much more than if I had been honest with her at the beginning. We convince ourselves that we are being nice by not telling the truth, by avoiding to be direct and honest, but the fact is that we're hurtful to people.
Good luck and keep us posted.
Thanks, Mozza, for dropping by and offering these thoughts. I've pondered this quite a bit today and here's what I've concluded: I'm not an avoider but I don't like (fear) making mistakes. I don't want to infer a guy is interested until I am sure that is what is going on. And at the moment I'm not feeling very confident in my ability to judge that (if you recall, a married guy I sat next to on a plane a couple of months ago made reference to getting a hotel...and I was genuinely baffled as to whether he was propositioning me or not). I also guess I don't have a good sense for how far to let things go before announcing "not interested". Actually I am pretty direct and honest most of the time...that was probably a bigger factor in my M.
Coffee Guy: well that's just a bit of infatuation on my behalf and I don't think he's interested. I'm not being rude or anything, just decided I should try not to indulge myself. Ignore wasn't the right word. Of the 3, I feel the most attraction and tension here...though I think it is all in my head.
Smitten Meetup guy: we interacted very little on the hike and a few days later he sends me a message along the lines of "not meaning to be disrespectful...he doesn't really believe in love...but for some reason my face was upon his thoughts". OK - I get it. That's pursuit. Does that warrant a direct "thanks, I'm not interested" response? That seems a bit harsh having had such basic exchange. I mean I can't speak for all womankind, but I don't know any girls who are gonna want to go there. I ended up responding "Thanks, I'm flattered. Hope you're settling well" (he just moved here). Was that a case of me not being direct enough or a guy not getting that that means not interested? After that he sent me a poem (not written by him)...and that's when I didn't respond.
Other Meetup guy: we'd both been on a few of the same hikes and I met up with him separately one time. He invited me to a few other things after that (so he obviously didn't not like me) but I was genuinely busy so said no. I didn't want to make the mistake of inferring he wanted something more than he really did. Mostly I think this relates to the age difference. He could have responded...h3ll no, you're 20 years younger, I'm not that kind of guy and then it would be really awkward for both of us (that's probably me projecting my insecurities around the age difference onto him). I did reply - basically said I was only looking for friendship, wasn't really sure what he was wanting and then mentioned where I was at in my sitch. I left it in his court by saying if he is looking to have an occasional catch up as friends then I can do that, but if he's looking for more than that then it would be unfair of me to say yes to catching up. I finished by saying I hope he understands where I am coming from. Turns out he does....he's an LBS (5 years) and he's in no hurry for a relationship beyond friends (though the way that was phrased, he didn't rule out that that was what he wanted). We'll probably meet up next week. You were right, Mozza, I did feel relieved at having this out in the open.
... ... ... ...
I'm not too sure if I should be elaborating on the above. This is a pro-marriage site and that was something I really valued when I first came here. FWIW I still remain open to reconciliation and I still don't consider myself "in the dating scene." But I have been finding it interesting engaging more with all the people around me, including men (who I actually find it easier to get along with....ISTJ). Makes me realise how much marriage kinda pulled me out of that - 50% of the population was sort of off limits. So yeah...just kind of feeling my way through each day and if it turns into something then so be it. Keeping it real these days.
Hey gan, I'm glad if you helped you think about your sitch and yourself. As for talking about dating on these forums, I chose to share in general, though not in details, because I feel it's part of the process and it has a certain impact on me and my sitch.
Gan, Mozza...you'd be proud of me! I mentioned on my thread my I was offended by something my dad had said the other day at lunch about how stupid it was to have a life goal of "growing old with someone". Then he did something else that was meant to be considerate (he referred me to his financial adviser and told me his fa was expecting a call/email to ensure I had his contact info) but I'm so overwhelmed I was resentful he was putting more things to do on my plate.
Normally I would just bury it and move on. Instead I took the advice of my DB coach and emailed him how I felt. I tried to be tactful and acknowledge his positive intent and that I didn't feel he did anything wrong, while still voicing how it impacted me and where I was.
The result? We had a great conversation today and he agreed being direct is a good way to go.
Normally I don't copy/paste exact emails, but I think my Dad is safe so here it is. I'm feeling good. Hooray us for being direct!
Dad,
I hope you had a nice father's day as well.
One thing I have learned is I have a hard time with conflict. That is why I have relatively few close friends, and why when the going gets rough I tend to withdraw into my own world. This is something I'm working on, and DB Coach encouraged me to share my feelings with you.
The other day at lunch I found myself getting very upset. I didn't understand why at the time because it happened rather quickly. Looking back I was able to figure it out. When you were talking about the absurdity of a life goal of growing old with someone it pained me deeply. That happened to be a life goal of mine, and one that has been subject to a loss I'm not only still grieving, but one that is so expansive I am still stunned by the blow it has been to me. I am fully aware this misses the primary points of the story you were trying to tell and I know you wouldn't deliberately cause me to suffer, I just wasn't able to see past that because I am still very sensitive to this topic.
As for financial advisor, I will tell you that I am feeling beyond overwhelmed. My mediation is schedule for next Thursday and I am being bombarded with requests for documentation for the courts, on top of the parenting, job, and responsibilities that are crushing down on me. I was upset when you threw this on my plate and asked me to email him, but I realize you have only the best intentions and aren't aware of how I'm feeling. I can see this was a generous thing to do in ordinary situations as I am sure I'll benefit from meeting him at some point.
When I write this I could see how it could sound absurd to be disturbed by a comment about a life goal, or to feel resentment at having one 10 minute task put on my plate. I would agree if I wasn't in the spot I'm in. I feel very close to the breaking point and am reacting to pretty much emergencies only at this time. And even my definition of emergency has loosened up as fairly important things are starting to slide through the cracks.
I don't expect you to walk on eggshells around me. I am learning that I can handle a little turbulence now and then, and that is a small price to pay for the joy of having you in my life. The fact is if I didn't care as much as I do about you I wouldn't have made it a priority to share this. Frankly I still don't understand what good will come of it, but DB Coach insists this is what mature people do- "represent themselves". If it sounds like I'm speaking in psychobabble I probably am, I don't know what to do anymore so I'm basically trying to surround myself with people I trust and do what I'm told.
Thanks for being one of those people Dad. I love you and will talk to you soon.
I AM proud of you! I think this was an awesome -mail. In not surprised so much good came out of it. Congratulations and may this example lead the way!
Gan
You never cease to amaze me.
V
Why so, V?
Zues - I'll get back to you. There's something I want to unpack from your post above. But it's time for me to get some sleep.
Gan
Because of your sense of adventure and chutzpah.
Willing to have a 'go'
V
Normally I would just bury it and move on. Instead I took the advice of my DB coach and emailed him how I felt. I tried to be tactful and acknowledge his positive intent and that I didn't feel he did anything wrong, while still voicing how it impacted me and where I was.
The result? We had a great conversation today and he agreed being direct is a good way to go.
Normally I don't copy/paste exact emails, but I think my Dad is safe so here it is. I'm feeling good. Hooray us for being direct!
Hi Gan,
Great words of wisdom from Zues. I admire your sense of adventure, but if you are not feeling confortable, direct is the only way to go!
I wish you well.
Bob
When you are ready Gan would appreciate an update.
I see you on the board a little sometimes but I do concern myself with our intrepid explorer.
Plus you do some cool stuff.......
V
Thanks, Bob and V.
V - I love that you called me an adventurer/explorer. I like to think of myself that way, and I think it's a side of me that H never really appreciated/got to see.
I've been around the boards...mostly checking in on friends...but finding it hard to find time to post, especially as I've been meaning to respond in more depth to Zues' post above. Alas, now is not the time to get into that either.
Suffice to say things are good. No word from H. Had a really nice dinner with Other (Older) Meetup Guy during the week though...and he has a crazee LBS story (which I'll not go into here).
Hope everyone is doing well!
Hi Gan, thanks for stopping by my thread and good to hear that you are doing so well. Nice that you had dinner with older meet up guy OMUG??
I meant to say that earlier discussions on your thread about responding to potential advances from guys resonated with me. I also find it hard to deal with whether I'm making assumptions. If he asks me out, but I don't have a romantic interest, should I say that. But would that be assuming he does etc??
I'm going to try and be more honest and authentic in this area going forward. No news from H then? Have you now passed the point where either of you could potentially file Gan? Do you plan just to carry on as you are for now....which doesn't sound like a bad plan as I think you are doing well...??
Take care xx
Hi Gan,
just dropping by to say hello and see how the technical gear hunt is going for your hikes?
especially as I've been meaning to respond in more depth to Zues' post above. Alas, now is not the time to get into that either.
Suffice to say things are good.
Ha, you've had me on pins and needles trying to figure out what horrible character flaw I've revealed. Mostly kidding, you've always used nerf 2x4s
I'm almost done with me book and the one you recommended is next. Keep up the good fight and talk when you can.
Thanks everyone for your posts. Tonight I booked a date with DB to catch up with your threads and reply here. The lights are dimmed, the vino is flowing and the mood is set with the Best of 90s French Touch (?) thanks to Apple Music. I don’t know what that means necessarily, but I’m liking it so far.
Toots Honest and authentic is the way to go I think…but I acknowledge I find it a bit challenging at times and need to apply a beginner’s mindset. I also need to be ok being a bit vulnerable. As for H, we could file as of about 1.5 months ago, though I’ve heard nada from him since May. For now I intend to continue as is but if I do find myself in an R then I am sure to question why I am still M (on paper).
Jim The technical gear is serving me very well
I did the 50km hike a couple of weekends ago with no dramas. This weekend I (only) did 30km as I came down with a cold during the week. Looks like I found me a team so I am officially training for Oxfam Trailwalker and loving it.
Zues Oh, sorry you’ve been thinking I was going to give you 2 x 4! That’s not it at all. Really I wanted to say how much I admire you for the message you wrote to your dad. One of my big learnings through all this is how hard I find it to bring a voice to my feelings. It does’t mean that I don’t have feelings, but I tend to process them internally. I suspect others might find me a little hard to get to know - not because I am un-friendly, just that it takes me a bit to open up. So your intro paragraph in the letter to your dad really resonated with me. I've also come to realise that I need to time to process…so while I may make do in the moment (sometimes not very well), my insights often come later. I like your letter because you gave a voice to those insights and decided to share them with your dad after the original discussion. That was both brave and constructive. So I guess I really just wanted to say thanks for sharing an example of how to manage this “headflow” (as in workflow…but what is going on in my head!) Brace yourself for the Schnarch book - there’s some pretty graphic stuff in there. I look forward to hearing what you think.
Mozza I found myself in a situation yesterday that left me wondering if Mozza would think I was “put[ting] [my]self and others in complicated situations”. Basically it involved OMUG (older Meetup Guy) inviting me for dinner after the hike yesterday and me saying no…even after i was the one who kind of raised the idea. I ended up sending him an email today, apologising and calling myself out on the fact that I put him in a bit of an odd position. I also said I’m just not sure what to make of our interactions - given that we’re both (technically) still married and there is a big age difference between us. I confess I do enjoy the interactions…but I don’t want him to get caught up in my confusion. Trying to be open about where i am at...
… … … …
So, life goes on and I really just feel like I am letting things wash over me at the moment. Actually, I often have a visual of me standing under a waterfall and just letting the water flow over (cheeeesy, huh?) I’m enjoying navigating new territory and seeing what comes of it. Sometimes that new territory is just a different part of me that I'd not explored previously.
I also said I’m just not sure what to make of our interactions - given that we’re both (technically) still married and there is a big age difference between us.
My take is that you should enjoy it for what it is worth, however before you get too serious you should change your marital status.
You see how affairs start just with this interaction,
and do you want to be an affair partner?
Do you believe everything that this man says?
Hey, Cadet. Trust me, there is really no reason for me to be changing my marital status based on the current state of things. The situation is hard to explain. If we were two gals getting together over dinner and having the same conversation, there'd be nothing to it. But because he's a man - and an older one at that - it just feels a bit more muddled. My confusion about the interaction is just as much about whether we can be friends across that divide, as it is about being in an R. Trying to come to it from a place of no judgement.
As for your questions. Yes, I do believe what this man says. It's complicated and I'm not going to go into it here but the circumstances lead me to believe there is next to no chance for R between him and his wife. He's looking to move on, not have an affair.
Just back from weekday GAL drinks with a mutual friend of H and me. She's a lot of fun, and has a fresh perspective on relationships that I find very thought provoking.
Apparently H caught up with her H a couple of months ago. At that time H revealed he "had a lot of fun on Tinder but it wasn't really working out" (her words) and that there was "someone after that but it didn't sound very serious" (her words again). Apparently he asked after me. Sounded like they also had a conversation about his reason for leaving..."because the sparks just weren't there like they were in the beginning".
I feel strangely...whatever.
Oh...and OMUG got back to me and says it's cool, no need to over think. He's right about that.
Hi Gan, interesting to get a bit of feedback about your H. It certainly doesn't sound as though he has anyone serious in the picture. It may be useful that he tries a little dating. Going out with a few other women and not feeling a connection may be something he needs to go through.
Good that you just feel 'whatever.' There would have been a time in my sitch where I was thrown for a loop at that kind of thing. I think now I have closed down to him somewhat emotionally. Whether that could open up again I'm not sure.
Good that OMUG came back to you. He is right that there's no need to over think things. You're an independent woman who can make new male friends and be clear about her needs and what she does and doesn't want in her life.
Good for you Gan!! T xx
Hi Gan,
I read your update about your H and for me that was one of those head in hand moments. If he is only concerned about those early sparks then (in my opinion) he is setting himself up for a lifetime of shallowness and disappointment.
Sounds good about OMUG, its a phrase I picked up from these boards that I now use quite a lot in real life 'No need to borrow problems from tomorrow'
Anyway sounds like you're having fun with the hiking so that's good. And i cant remember if I said already but congratulations on having the paper accepted
Gan
Sounds to me like you are not yet completely ready yet.
You will know when you are.
In the meanwhile pleasant interactions are always acceptable distractions.
V
^^^^^^^^ Hi Gan, V is "spot on" again!
Sending positive thoughts your way.
Bob
V, Bob - not quite ready to....? Date? File?
Toots and Jim - will get back to you later (writing from my phone, on lunch, enjoying the winter sun).
V, Bob - not quite ready to....? Date? File?
Hi Gan, I meant date, and my
impression was that is what V thought, too.
V, am I correct?
Bob
Yes, to date. Apologies for being unclear.
Filing is altogether another issue, for a more complex post dear one.
V
Toots | Yes, I agree. I think him being with other people is pretty much a necessity at this point. It's the reality in any case. I'm trying not to think about it too much, though I imagine it will be a big mental hurdle if we were to R. I'm not sure if it's the sort of thing I can recover from...but I will address that if it comes to it.
Jim | Yeah, I have the same reaction. I suppose I knew that he felt this way and guess I know what he means. We did let other things get in the way of our R together. The difference between us - I accept that long term relationships can get like this and I am/was willing to work on it; I did not walk away. I've felt a bit of anger at this fact since meeting up with our mutual friend last week. Anger and sadness that he blew up our M to go after something that is pretty unattainable. It also feels like a bit of a black mark on me of sorts...and felt weird hearing our mutual friend convey that that was the issue. I know we both contributed to the situation, but I still need to work on forgiving myself for the things I did and didn't do. I don't want that to be a recurring theme in my next R.
V and Bob | Curious to know what it is I said that makes you think I'm not ready to date. I feel ready to date. I don't think much about H these days, and increasingly feel like I want to explore more on my own. If H were to turn around now, I'd have to stop and think seriously if I want to give up the life I've created to return to the M. That's how I've been feeling lately anyway. I've also been pondering what it is that is stopping me from filing.
... ... ... ...
So it was my birthday on Friday and it was interesting to stand back and reflect on how much my social circle has expanded in the last year or so. In addition to the usual "haven't seen you in 10 years, happy birthday" type FB messages, I had a number of exchanges with people throughout the day..many referring to things we recently did, or plans to next week etc etc...really made me realise how different things are.
Had a lovely dinner with a new girlfriend who insisted we go out on my b'day. I was ok with a quite one, knowing I had a 30km hike planned for Saturday followed by night out dancing. Alas, she tempted me with the offer of cheeeese and vino.
Saturday night was ridiculous fun. In the past I would have said I didn't like dancing....but deep down I think I kinda did. It was a bit of a meat market but I felt pretty comfortable with it. I'm feeling pretty at ease with myself these days and it helps that I'm not wanting to rush into an R. So I really don't need to settle or worry too much about outcomes when guys do show interest.
I gave my number to one guy, who followed up today. Bit of back and forward with OMUG as well.
Oh and H. After feeling a bit [censored] that he didn't get in touch on my b'day, he sent a text just now...right as I was about to send a message to the guy above. Now I'm not sure who I will reply to :-/
Gan
It is because my lovely adventuress your heart still seems to belong to Mr W Gan.
So I ask what is dating?
Is it going for coffee or a meal with some lovely lad who has no chance at all or is it being open to a new R if you get the right vibe?
V
Happy Belated Birthday.
Cheeeeeeeese
Moooooose
V
Hey Vanilla. To me dating would be anything that I wouldn't do if I was in another committed relationship. To your point, I wouldn't go out with a lovely woman to have a coffee whether or not I felt she 'had a chance'. I could ask a woman for directions, exchange a few sentences should I run into someone I know at a social event, etc...beyond that, I wouldn't cross that line.
As for when I would be ready to cross that line...not for a while. First off, I am still married and I believe that's important. This has been debated at length on other threads so I won't rehash that, although it has since occurred to me that building a relationship with someone that wasn't bothered with my marital status might not be in my best interest. Anyway, status aside, I am not ready to date.
Gan, you very well might be. Just for me, I'm a long ways off.
See, as of 7/12 I feel more 'over' my STBX than I ever have. There is a spooky lack of emotion. I can still vaguely remember having felt differently in the past, but right now all I can think is "that was before you found out who she really is". I can't even imaging wanting her in my life again. Even still I don't trust those feelings (or lack of). Following feelings is what my WAW did that lead us here (and what I did during our M to contribute), I want to do what I believe is right these days.
I don't feel the need to be in an R. This is a big step for me. I remember hearing "if you need an R you aren't ready for one", but as recently as a couple of months ago I was really concerned about my next R. Like I wanted to learn from this and get to the part when I was happily married. Now I am not in a rush, and I think it makes sense to go slowly after a D. To put it another way, I used to do consumer finance and was always blown away at how people that just filed bankruptcy would go out and buy new cars right after their debt was discharged. I was shocked at how reckless they were with their finances, but then I'd remember that's probably why they had to file BK in the first place. So when we just get a D, it's like 'whoa, let's take it easy for a while'.
And while I don't miss my STBX, I AM still sorting through what happened. Shoot, I may no longer NEED a M, but now I'm at the spot where I'm not even sure why I'd want one! I mean, I'm taking care of myself, GAL, all that. I have been working on letting go of expectations and accepting reality. The reality is that my next R/M will probably be very dissatisfying, frustrating, and depressing at times. I still want to be M because I find value in sharing our time on this planet, and showing love to my partner, but it sounds more like a job than a vacation right now- except for the honeymoon period which frankly I'm half jaded about because all I see are the same superficial desires for romance/sexual fulfillment that lead so many of our WAS's to leave in the first place.
To recap, I don't think feelings for my STBX impact me but I don't know if that will sustain or if things will trigger that and I want to be emotion free for a good while before dating, I am still working through what just happened and what I think M is about, and I'm not sure it's even what I want right now because I'm still grieving the loss between how I thought love worked in this world versus the fragile/convenience based love that actually exists. Hopefully a year or two after the D is inked I'll be legally divorced, emotionally stable for 1+ years, have sorted through my R confusion, and will be back on top of my life and feel like sharing it with someone. But that's not right now.
But that's just for me. I take longer than most because I'm pretty analytical and I need to reflect longer on a lot of things. Gan, if you find value in meeting other people then I trust you're in good shape, you know who you are and what you're doing. This isn't criticism or persuasion, just me talking about me and some of the factors I'm dealing with on this front.
Take it easy all and goodnight!
So I ask what is dating? Is it going for coffee or a meal with some lovely lad who has no chance at all or is it being open to a new R if you get the right vibe?
So, funnily enough, V, I contemplaited googling this exact thing. I've noticed that I don't feel like I am dating OMUG for instance...but why is this so? Where is the line?
In response to your above definitions of dating - I am not going to go out for coffee or a meal with someone who has no chance. If my heart isn't open then I'm just not going to put a guy through that unless it's clear that we're both only after friendship. In regards to OMUG, I've been honest with where I'm at with things. It's up to him if he wants to still hang out. Actually I'm just back from dinner with him now...and we had some pretty frank discussion about our current situations. So we'll see what happens next. On my side this is a friends only thing and I have communicated that.
But yes, I am open to a new R if I get the right vibe.
To me dating would be anything that I wouldn't do if I was in another committed relationship. To your point, I wouldn't go out with a lovely woman to have a coffee whether or not I felt she 'had a chance'. I could ask a woman for directions, exchange a few sentences should I run into someone I know at a social event, etc...beyond that, I wouldn't cross that line.
I've come to expect nothing less of you, Zues. And I think it is a quality in you that it to be cherished.
On my side, since I have started to feel what it is like to engage with members of the opposite sex again, I've started to question whether marriage really needs to be so all consuming. Maybe it is ok to give and receive what you can to/from your partner, but also enjoy interacting with other people as well - including those of the opposite sex - over coffee? I'm not talking physical needs here, I am talking about other forms of life enrichment. Sometimes my H didn't satisfy my desire to philosophise about things, for instance, whereas other men I've met could have. Should I have refrained from those interactions in fear it would get too intimate?
In some ways, I'm starting to think it is healthier to consider yourself fair game....and thereby make a decision not to pursue others...rather than considering yourself and your spouse automatically off limits.
Provocative thoughts....but something I've started to ponder.
Hi Gan, WFH today and just taking a little break. Interesting debate and a tricky area. Shirley Glass has views on this in her 'After the Affair' book. She suggests that very clear boundaries should be kept on friendships with people of the opposite gender. Absolute transparency. Is this person a 'friend' of the M? Has your S met them? and so on. So for me it isn't about ruling out those friendships, but being very clear on boundaries and standards for myself.
To me, if I start not telling my partner I met someone for coffee. If I start moaning about my R with them, or vice versa - these things are a line crossed. I've had my fingers burned of course. My H started 'lunching' with a group from work. They had a regular lunch club once a week. Mix of women and guys. That then morphed into lunch or after dinner drinks with one or more of the women and then that became an A. Those lines are so easy to cross I feel....
But I'm not commenting on your own choices just now. I'm not dating just now, but in our sitches - a year+ since BD - I don't have a problem with a little light dating. I just don't feel I'm ready for it, you know?
Toots, I think I always had a similar perspective to you. If I was open with H about who I was hanging out with then it wasn't an issue. If for some reason I felt a need not to be honest, then that meant the line had been crossed. ATM he doesn't seem to give a [censored] about what I'm up to so there is no need for disclosure on my end (not that there's much to disclose). I can see though that it will get tricky if I start dating all the while not intending to file. That's a hard one to explain to another person. I'm starting to ask the question of why I am not filing.
So I added a new GAL activity to my repertoire this week. I signed up for an 8-wk burlesque dancing course with a new girlfriend! We had our first class last night and it was soooo much fun. I can move ok but when I have to combine thinking (about the choreography) with moving I'm a total klutz. Lady V, do you have any tips on how to master this?
Burlesque - ooh la la!! Good for you. I enjoyed the bit of Ceroc I did, but it clashes with yoga, so I haven't been for a while. I also seem to be terrible at remembering the moves.
Yes, I agree it's a funny one about dating and not choosing to file. Fine if things are at a very light level - but if you start to want more? I don't know the answer - only that you are very wise, have integrity and I'm sure will decide on the right path for you.
In the meantime......enjoy!! xx
Gan
The only suggestion I have is that eventually with practice comes muscle memory. The same with Ceroc, it's about letting your body learn. I think of the moves as letters of the alphabet, or shapes.
In other words relax and just move. I found it easier to de focus my eyes too. If you remember learning to drive then everything is marionette but after a while the body just 'does it'.
I learned burlesque and pole dancing, it was tough for about 6 weeks but after than, just a great giggle. I also completed a Bollywood class.
V
Well it's been a crazy freakin week. On Monday my research got published in a pretty high profile journal. Since then my former student and I have done several media interviews, including with the BBC. All the while it's been one of my most intense teaching weeks of the year. I'm glad it's the weekend!
At one point in time I could have been accused of being too absorbed in my work. Not so this week. While all the above has been going on, I've been out every single night this week with a different person(s) to a different place.....catching up with an old friend, having a celebratory champagne, attending burlesque class, entertaining a visiting colleague or dining out at a fancy restaurant with yet other friends.
Part of me wishes I could be sharing the excitement of it all with my H. The other part of me just thinks he's a fool.
Congrats on the journal!!!! So happy for you and for all the GAL that has resulted. Keep up the good work!
Congratulations!
Don't fret... He is a fool.
Gan, that's brilliant news......well done!!! Sounds like a good GAL week too - you must be pretty tired by now, and I hope you can relax a little this weekend.
Take care, Toots xx
gan,
You need to start a new thread very soon. You've reached the 100th posting for replies/responses.
Gan, Congratulations on the publication and the big variety of GAL, sounds like you had a good week.
Gan!! I was thinking of you the other day and realised you haven't posted for a little while. I miss you!
Do post and let us know how you are doing my friend. I hope you have had little time for posting because your life is so busy and fulfilling....
xx
Please start a new thread. You have 105 postings/replies.