Just got done seeing my attorney. Not looking good. With moving out, I'm trying to financially see how I can pay the amounts they are requesting. Attorney said it'd probably be a good idea to sit down with ww and see if she can work something out. Otherwise, her and her attorney can continue to ask for a higher amount than we are proposing.
This makes going dark seem even harder for me. She has 100% control in this divorce process and financially how hard she hits me. If I'm dark, why would she want to be anything but vindictive? She clearly doesn't care about me.
Going from bad to worse.
last thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2562012#Post2562012
Why is your attorney agreeing to the higher amount she is proposing? Why isn't he offering a counter proposal? Or is that what he wants you to negotiate? Isn't that what you hired him to do?
This makes going dark seem even harder for me. She has 100% control in this divorce process and financially how hard she hits me. If I'm dark, why would she want to be anything but vindictive?
Which is why the advice around here is usually to leave the divorce to the lawyers.
My attorney is offering counter - $800, when her attorney wants me to pay the mortgage at $1300. My lawyer is saying based on what I W2's that I should be able to pay close to $1300 and a judge would probably see that - I can't. Not with my new rent, etc. But, that's what state laws dictate.
So, since everything is negotiable, if ww would agree to work with me, that's a better shot than taking it to a judge to decide, who would prob decide in her favor.
So my lawyer told me that being open and transparent with my ww and letting her know what we're proposing and why could help her agree to it, vs her feeling I'm lowballing her with everything just between lawyers.
So much for just leaving it up to attorneys and going dark. How can I do both?
Well not sure how well that went or what I was expecting. Talked with ww about meeting with attorney and wanting to be able to talk through finances together so neither of us has to feel animosity and can be able to still communicate on important things.
Told her I cannot afford the full mortgage, but proposed and am willing to do $800. Also told her that I already am working to cut things out of my budget like cable in order to ensure she gets that payment.
She got angry and said that she hates dealing with this and loves being able to just have her attorney handle things because she hates talking about it. She also said she is scared because she can't make the mortgage payment on her own and is worried all the extra expenses will leave her in financial duress.
I told her I can understand why that would scare her and I want to look at our bills and find a way to get to a number that works for both of us. She is also stressed because she needs to out the house on the market and not sure to do that and not sure what happens if it doesn't sell, etc.
She also made the comment that she stopped coming to me because she felt like I no longer gave a [censored]. That when she would want to talk about light things, I would be checked out and give short responses - lrt and going dark as much as possible. So she felt she couldn't come to me with anything remotely serious.
I told her I understood that she felt that way and that this obviously isn't easy for either one of us. In the end I want to continue to communicate so that we can both be ok, so our sons will have 2 places where they can be safe and have what they need.
She said she'd be more open to talking, but never agreed on any amount and I didn't force the issue.
Really not sure what to do from here.
Sandi, wonka, everyone else. While living in the same house and going through trying to come to agreement on finances, I'm not sure how to go dark or lrt effectively.
As I do it, I'm not sure she really respects me. All she expresses is that it feels like I don't give a crap and that makes her feel like she can't trust me and I'm the bad guy out to hurt or manipulate her. How does that keep the path home smooth? How does that generate respect?
Part of me feels when I move out I need to go dark to have her realize what she's missing and stand by my no om boundary. But the other part knows she has abandonment fears and that by me doing that would just continue to prove her right.
Yes she made the choice to have the affair and she continues to disrespect me. But do I go dark when right now the returns are anger and an overall feeling that I don't care for her and am out to get her? Or do I continue to communicate and help her with selling our house and risk having her think I'm ok with the affair and possibly lose respect along the way.
Really confused as far as what to do and how to proceed. After reading tenbook's situation, I'm unsure if my wife is a WW or going through a MLC. She's 33, turning 34, so not sure if that;s too young for one, but here's a rundown of our sitch and her history:
-Dad abused mom growing up, got divorced and WW had a horrible relationship with father, who emotional and verbally abused her. Cut him out of her life at 18
-Had a relationship with an ex that ended poorly at 18, he dumped her and between him and her father, she ran to Omaha
-In Omaha, was in a job for 6 months she hated, felt lonely, didn't know anyone and met me, we immediately started dating at 19 and moved in together and within 3 years were married with a kid
-7 years into our marriage we had been in and out of conseling and she admits she no longer loves me and is having an EA with her ex when she was 18 - I move out of the house, she said she's filing for divorce, but never did
-Her mother and sister are diagnosed with Huntington's disease, a rare, incurable illness that leads to dementia and early death. WW has a 50% chance of having it because her mother does and if WW has it, each of our sons have a 50% chance. This leads to a lot of guilt and risk of suicide among people facing this. Depression is high.
-Her mother comes to live with WW and is so far gone, it's hard for WW to deal with and take care of her
-3 months after moving out, her EA dumps her and she runs back to me and starts initating sex with me and we work things out and I move back into the house, her mother moves back home to Wisconsin
-WW wants to gets tested for disease, but is too scared to and we sweep under the rug. We do not go back to conseling to fix any of the problems that initially occured
-We spend 2 years happy and agree to renew our vows on our 10 year anniversary last May
-JUL/AUG/SEPT she is off. She starts smoking, complains about how she hates work and is unhappy and doesn't know if she's ever been happy or ever could. She goes through a big depression
-OCT she claims the reason she has been depressed is she needs to get tested for Huntingtons and to stop living in fear. She schedules her test for FEB/MAR of 2015
-End of DEC she tells me she loves me, but not in love with me. Unsure if she wants a divorce
-JAN she admits to going on a date with OM, but that they are friends
-JAN/FEB she continues to go out late with whoever, unexpectedly and wants nothing to do with me. Said she needs space and is unsure what she wants to do in life, whether to go back to school, quit her job, unsure about anything and just needs to be free and find herself. She also said she is unwilling to do counselling and is constantly triggered by me and past hurt. She no longer feels she can get past the hurt, trust me and risk getting hurt again
-MAR she gets her results. She does NOT have Huntingtons. She continues to tell me she is unhappy. Apparently FEB (at the latest) is when she started her affair and hid it from me
-APR she hides money from our tax return, files for divorce, drops the bomb and finally admits to the affair
Overall, her MO is when things get tough, she runs and just wants them to be over. She has essentially cut her 2 sisters out of what's been going on for her and surrounded herself with OM and work friends she has known less than a year, who have no idea about me or our relationship, only people that would support her affair and moving on.
-Our joint therapist over the years believes WW suffers from PTSD with me and past experiences with her father. Until that's treated, feels WW will always feel unhappy after 2-3 years and the pattern of running continues.
I have done the no OM speech, given a boundary of not being able to be her friend and had things strictly communicated with me lawyer. I realize there's nothing I can do to change her, until she decides she wants to work on her.
What I don't know is does this sound more similar to MLC or WW? If one or the other, how should I react? From what I've read MLC is more about understanding her hurt and not trying to create more pressure, playing the long game - if you can handle it. And WW is standing your ground, setting boundaries and gaining respect.
Based on this, what do you guys think? I'm second guessing everything now. Any other questions about my sitch I can clarify?
Sorry for the long post!
I would respectfully suggest you stop trying to arm-chair diagnose your WW and focus on things that are in your control - your WW's reasons and motivations have nothing to do with you at this point, and there is nothing you can do to change this.
What you can control is how this divorce is going to happen, and nothing will influence this more than your initial offer and moving out of the house.
Moving out and leaving her in the house with the kids is almost always a bad move. Unless you are in a no support situation (you make about the same or less than your wife, 50-50 on kids and everything else) then you moving out gives her a big advantage. By keeping the marital home, even if the time works out 50-50 it is generally presumed that she will receive support to maintain her lifestyle in the marital home. If she cant afford this on her own - you will have to pay up. Judges spend a lot of time considering the $ required to support the kids, they wont give a second thought about what you need to live on in your apartment, even if you have 50-50.
You need to force the sale of the house, hopefully before you move out. Once you are both out of the marital home and with 50-50, then you are on equal footing and there is no reason why you should have to pay more than temporary, rehabilitative support. Especially if you can work the ongoing affair into the conversation.
If you just have to leave due to the stress of the situation, then be very careful about writing terms for how long and under what conditions you pay support. I have seen exes live rent free for upwards of a decade by sabotaging sales and refusing to pay the mortgage, some even moving their APs in with them while the LBS foots the bill. You cant say things like "until sale of the house", you will need to say "for 12 months or until cohabitation" etc.
Your initial offer is the best that you will ever get. If you are paying up just to get out of the situation a few months faster, bear in mind that you will still be paying for this far into the future, when you will probably think of your ex as nothing more than a contemptible leach. You are so desperate to move out now that your instincts are to pay up and end the pain, but think about 5 years in the future and you are effectively paying for her cruise vacation with her boyfriend, just so that you could move out a few months sooner and try to avoid upsetting her.
Basically, what I am saying is that you need to tough it out now and stand up for yourself, because you are dangerously close to making some very long-term mistakes.
Finally, when you see a lawyer, expect realistic assessments that wont make you happy. But also expect to hear options and advice. If you arent hearing that, I highly suggest you consult a few more attorneys and see which ones are willing to go to bat for you.
Fade - Here's where I'm at - I'm moving out 5/23 no matter what, signed the lease. She put in a temporary order for me to move out anyway. And the discussion we are finalizing is on the temporary order. Finally, my lawyer already clarified me moving out of the house will have no negative impact on custody or financially what I'm paying her. Also, already hired the attorney so not shopping around for others.
I had thought about helping with the house being sold, but I've gotten so much advice on dragging out the divorce and not helping with anything, letting her deal with it. Letting my lawyer talk to hers and having communication go that way.
That hasn't seemed to help and only built resentment from her.
What I'm not hearing is how to communicate and interact with her. Go dark or help her with the process? Get respect or communicate and have relationship of any kind? If I help with the process, aren't I just stopping any DB techniques and supporting her decision to divorce, creating a self fulfilling prophecy I don't want?
That's why I'm asking about MLC and WW. Because of other people's sitch it appeared you act differently between them. So again, I'm needing help on communication and interaction with her now. What do I do?
NOT legal advice.
Is anybody here? I'm starting to feel lost because of the timeline with temporary order. I'm thinking I need to talk with her and ask if she would like my help in selecting an agent, gettin the house on the market and doin what's needed around the house, even after moving out. That should make her less overwhelmed and hopefully feel I can work and communicate with her on things. I think this is also separate from my fear of her feeling this is me trying to be her friend or approving of the affair. This is working together to dissolve a partnership amicably. Or am I enabling her and allowing her to cake eat? This is where I need help!
Sorry her being overwhelmed is not YOUR problem.
I dont think you should help her with HER divorce, unless that is what YOU want!
Edit - less communication the better - IMHO
I have no desire for divorce and don't want it. However I also don't want the house and the extra costs of having it. Selling it seems to make financial sense for both of us and wouldn't this be separate from helping her with the divorce? Otherwise I'm worried I stick my head in the sand, do nothing and she builds up more resentment, still moves forward with divorce and hurts me more financially
I'm just not sure what to do anymore.
Rip,
Maybe it's just me but it seems like you come on here asking for advice, people give it to you to the best of their ability, and then you come back with a bunch of reasons why you think you should do something different. Which is fine. It's your life. You ultimately need to do what you think is best.
But it might be why you're not getting as much feedback.
Just my $.02
Drew - I appreciate the feedback. Since I've asked last night - the only responses I've received are from you, fogg and cadet. Each essentially saying - don't move out of the house and let the lawyers handle it. These decisions have already been made, can't stay in the house. I'm not trying to be argumentative, but the response I've gotten haven't really helped me answer the questions I've been asking.
What I'm not hearing is how to communicate and interact with her. Go dark or help her with the process? Get respect or communicate and have relationship of any kind? If I help with the process, aren't I just stopping any DB techniques and supporting her decision to divorce, creating a self fulfilling prophecy I don't want?
Again, I have no desire for divorce and don't want it. However I also don't want the house and the extra costs of having it. Selling it seems to make financial sense for both of us and wouldn't this be separate from helping her with the divorce? Otherwise I'm worried I stick my head in the sand, do nothing and she builds up more resentment, still moves forward with divorce and hurts me more financially
Like I've said before - this group and forum is amazing, not sure what I'd do without you. I come here to get feedback and help because you guys know more about what I'd be going through that anyone else and I try to give as much intell in my sitch to help aid in informed feedback.
Definitely not trying to come across like I don't value or dismiss people's feedback - just hadn't felt like my questions were answered.
Update: so I spoke with her and told her I want to do my part in helping sell the house and even assisting with real estate agents if she would like. Let her know I view this as part of coparenting and even though I'm moving out, would leave her to be screwed with that part, since selling the house is something we both want.
She said she's still processing everything from yesterday and spent the entire day being angry, scared and sad. Said she felt better but as soon as she stepped foot in here it all came back and not sure what she wants to do.
Guess at this point I just have to leave it alone.
Another update. Yesterday seemed to go ok. A nice stress free day. Came back to the house after work and had to take sons to oldest son school choir concert. Ww and I found out oldest I going to skip a grade in math so celebrated that proud parenting moment.
Had some moments of small talk and laughter at the concert and home after. Pretty lighthearted and it felt nice. About 8pm as kids were getting settled down I left to go meet some friends and watch a game. Already told ww I would be doing so Monday.
This morning as she's getting ready she was in a mood. She left without any interaction when the last three days she intentionally came in to do so. Also she packed her overnight bag with a change of clothes, perfume and sexy underwear. Wonder what she's doing tonight?
So I just texted her and asked if she was planning on coming back after work tonite. She said she might grab drinks, not sure. Told her I'm trying to communicate with her. If she goes out, she does. Nothing I can do about it. But I didn't know she was gone Tuesday and feels like I wouldn't have known today.
She responded "I came back by 6:30pm. If I do, I would let you know. You make plans, mine tend to be on a whim. Sorry . . ."
Just told her "thanks for letting me know. I appreciate that."
The open communication is not there. And when she tells me earlier that my distance and essentially going dark make her question whether or not I give a [censored] about anything regarding her, I tried to be more open to small talk and jokes. Yesterday and Tuesday seemed good. Now it feels like she's going to bang om just to punish me.
Rip, hang in there! The emotional roller coaster [censored].
It does feel like they are punishing UA from time to time, but I am not sure if that is a motivation or if it is all just for them.
I'm trying to. I've gone through so many other people's posts and tried reviewing my own - there's a wealth of info out there. Just to help save me more time, can someone explain the difference between the LRT and Going Dark? With moving out, I'm sure going dark is the best course.
Is the difference essentially going dark being no contact at all, where LRT accepts there will have to be some interaction?
It does feel like they are punishing UA from time to time, but I am not sure if that is a motivation or if it is all just for them.
Just my guess that UA is a typo and it means YOU!
Zephyr?
"us" sorry i hate being tired AND autocorrect
Ah - that makes more sense. Thanks.
Can someone explain the difference between the LRT and Going Dark? With moving out, I'm sure going dark is the best course.
Is the difference essentially going dark being no contact at all, where LRT accepts there will have to be some interaction?
What am I working on for me? What are my goals to better myself?
-Rediscover and rebuild my self-esteem and self-confidence
-Learn to better control my anxiety and stop pursuing behaviors
-Let go of fears, they should not control my actions
-Learn to enjoy uncertainty and having patience, not everything has to have plans or expectations
-Realize how I am the only person responsible for my happiness and can only find it within me. I need to appreciate what I have, instead of focusing on the things or people I don't.
Rip,
Sorry for being MIA for a while...I am GALing.
Can someone explain the difference between the LRT and Going Dark? With moving out, I'm sure going dark is the best course.
LRT is just that....Last Resort Technique after you've tried all methods and your spouse is still in active affair. That is everything STOPS full stop from your end.
Going dark is the same as dropping the rope. You don't initiate or pursue the WAS. It is essentially showing them that you are not available or tripping over your shoelaces to answer their calls, texts, etc.
Is the difference essentially going dark being no contact at all, where LRT accepts there will have to be some interaction?
Not quite. LRT means NO contact...that you've completely dropped the rope. I think it is detailed in page 124 or 125 in DR. Yes, I have a pretty scary wicked memory.
Doing dark does not always mean no contact. It just simply means that you do NOT initiate contact or pursue your W.
No contact is complete radio silence.
Hope this helps!
It's is detailed in there wonka, thanks. But in reading that it implies and says when you interact be positive and polite. I could never find going dark or dropping the rope in dr. So that why I thought going dark was you dropped off the face of the earth and are gone because you're so busy gal.
Also I swear Saudi or others have said you can't go dark when you live in the same house can only do lrt. Which would make sense if going dark was no contact. Also my last db coach meeting was about lrt and it included contact.
Sorry to make this seem more difficult that's why I'm confusing the two.
It's is detailed in there wonka, thanks. But in reading that it implies and says when you interact be positive and polite. I could never find going dark or dropping the rope in dr. So that why I thought going dark was you dropped off the face of the earth and are gone because you're so busy gal.
Also I swear Saudi or others have said you can't go dark when you live in the same house can only do lrt. Which would make sense if going dark was no contact. Also my last db coach meeting was about lrt and it included contact.
Sorry to make this seem more difficult that's why I'm confusing the two.
Rip,
All the acronyms and strategies are confusing for me too. I think the key here is not to get too bogged down in the name of a particular strategy. Instead, focus on employing the strategy that seems to work best in your sitch at this moment and then be consistent. Over time, if it is helping you achieve your goals, keep doing it. If it is not, modify it. Only you know the precise nuances of your W and your relationship.
But please, take this time to focus on improving you. That will never be the wrong answer. Stay strong and focused! Only a few more days until you move out.
Rip, don't get hung up on the definitions.
Also, did you read "No More Mr. Nice Guy"? It talks about how it is okay for men to make mistakes. Fear of mistakes and always trying to do the "right thing" are hallmarks of a "Nice Guy". I think you are suffering from a bit of analysis paralysis (I know I am!). I thought it may help you to know that.
Sandi also says to make changes, then step back and reassess if they worked. This takes time and patience. Remember, do what works. Sorry my advice is pretty vague today, I am at work and really need to get stuff done. Still, I hope this helps.
If you think you are a nice guy, read the book I mentioned above.
RAI
Hey! Defacto AND I had the exact same advice for you. How cool is that? Must mean we are learning.
RAI
Hey! Defacto AND I had the exact same advice for you. How cool is that? Must mean we are learning.
RAI
Exactly. Or maybe it means that it is good advice! Or maybe not...
That's awesome - thanks so much Defacto and RAI. I'll check out the No More Mr. Nice Guy book and see how it helps, there may be elements in there for me.
It's not easy, but lately I keep telling myself to use the time for me and I can't focus on her. She never returned from work, went to see OM and didn't come back til 1:30AM. For the most part, I wasn't bothered. Spent the evening with my sons and got some sleep. Was a good night. I need more of these and moving out will help.
As far as improving on me - I'll keep referring back to these and any advice/strategies/what works for you guys and the group, I'm all ears:
-Rediscover and rebuild my self-esteem and self-confidence
-Learn to better control my anxiety and stop pursuing behaviors
-Let go of fears, they should not control my actions
-Learn to enjoy uncertainty and having patience, not everything has to have plans or expectations
-Realize how I am the only person responsible for my happiness and can only find it within me. I need to appreciate what I have, instead of focusing on the things or people I don't.
That's awesome - thanks so much Defacto and RAI. I'll check out the No More Mr. Nice Guy book and see how it helps, there may be elements in there for me.
It's not easy, but lately I keep telling myself to use the time for me and I can't focus on her. She never returned from work, went to see OM and didn't come back til 1:30AM. For the most part, I wasn't bothered. Spent the evening with my sons and got some sleep. Was a good night. I need more of these and moving out will help.
As far as improving on me - I'll keep referring back to these and any advice/strategies/what works for you guys and the group, I'm all ears:
-Rediscover and rebuild my self-esteem and self-confidence
-Learn to better control my anxiety and stop pursuing behaviors
-Let go of fears, they should not control my actions
-Learn to enjoy uncertainty and having patience, not everything has to have plans or expectations
-Realize how I am the only person responsible for my happiness and can only find it within me. I need to appreciate what I have, instead of focusing on the things or people I don't.
Rip,
Good work last night! This is improvement. I know personally how tough those nights are.
I think those bullet points are great. Keep digging deep!
Also I swear Saudi or others have said you can't go dark when you live in the same house can only do lrt. Which would make sense if going dark was no contact. Also my last db coach meeting was about lrt and it included contact.
During the time I was reading DR, I read some other books that were very similar to MWD's writing, and they even used the same acronyms, so I would have to go look up page numbers, etc., which I can't do at the moment. So anyway, the way I remember it from way back then, was that "Going Dark" was when you were totally
cut off and
away from the WAS/WS. Nothing heard from you and nothing seen of you. It is as if you fell off the planet. No contacts whatsoever! That is why my argument has always been that if you share children, it is almost impossible to stay dark long enough to be effective in the hopes of reconciliation. If you live under the same roof.....it
is impossible! How can you not be seen or heard and living in the same house? I believe MWD referred to "Going Dark" as the technique
after the LRT. She may not have been the one to actually coin the term "Going Dark"(I will have to double check) however, her
description of "After the LRT" is the
same as going dark.
I guess we get tied down in some of the terms, IDK. I remember when some new people who were confused about going
dark, and could not stick with it (b/c they would backslide), started referring to going
gray.
What!?! (Drove the mess out me! Still does!) In other words, it was a compromise of going dark....which isn't worth a flip. I thought that was crazy, was not an appropriate term. They just made it up b/c
they couldn't stick to anything, and was inventing a new.....
whatever.
It caused confusion for other newcomers, too, and I still see it popping up from time to time.....but I hate that "going gray" is ever used, and I won't tell all my reasons right now.....maybe later.
I agree about dropping the rope as being
the LRT. I use to post an analogy of playing tug of war and what happens when you drop the rope. It may be floating around in some old threads somewhere. If I happen to run across it, I'll send it your way.
The way I understand the LRT, it
can be applied while still living under the same roof. I remember seeing a couple of people on the board (one was a mod) who argued whether or not the 37 rules were 180's or dropping the rope.
So funny! I just sat back and watched the show. The important thing, Ripken, is to do what works for your situation. If you aren't sure about the acronym or term, then don't use one. Just give a description of whatever it is you are doing. Most of us here use it b/c it saves time, but there is confusion from time to time. And....if I'm wrong about any part, I am not to big to submit and admit.....(but it will hard). JK
Thanks Defacto and Sandi! Here's my gameplan when I move out to test and see how it works - whatever it's called (NOT gray)
-Work on me and dig deep on the 5 points above
-GAL, rediscover what I enjoy, work out and meet new people
-Not intiate contact with ww and not respond immediately (if at all) when she does - I'm busy
-If I chose to interact with ww, be polite, positive and allow parts of me to show, even humor/jokes and general care for her well-being, where it makes sense. Tell me self it's ok to enjoy moments with ww and doesn't have to mean she's cake-eating or I'm backing off my boundaries. Don't have to be a cold hearted dick.
-Be an amazing father and continue to grow that relationship even further. When it comes to interaction and whether or not to with ww, if it's about the boys, that trumps everything.
No sure if this is LRT, Going Dark or whatever. But this seems to be my plan. Any other thoughts or suggestions?
This is a great plan, Rip. No reason you can't start on some of these now.
Maintaining your PMA, make this a priority. not just with spouse when there may be interactions...but make this a priority in your entire life, new firends, work, family...all of it. It will help with all the other things!
Can't remember...Have you looked into any of the books on codependancy? There is a lot of us in the descriptions of what a codependant is and it could help with your five points above.
Sending out positive thoughts!!!
Oh, and i have an into to meditation tomorow morning. there are 2 free sessions a week, so i am going to give it a try tomrow. Thank you for your advice.
Defacto - thanks, starting some now
Zephr - I'll look into some of those books. I did get too attached to her for everything. I was extremely self confident and that dissolved over time. I need to take it back.
Good luck with the meditation - I think you'll find it peaceful and relaxing!
After looking at NMMNG - I'm not sure that would be the best resource for me. There are times right now, were I didn't want conflict due to the divorce/affair, etc but I normally don't avoid it.
I do feel I may have grown codependant and especially attached with her being the reason for my happiness/unhappiness. What resources have worked to become less codependant/attached?
'Codependent no more' lots of insight and pretty 'simple' read. I paticularly like the have a love affair with yourself concept.
There may be better books out there. There are tons of blogs too if you want to sort the whey from the chaff.
Had I guess a set back today. Wife was talking about when to start dividing up time with boys when I move out next week. Had our first conflict with June 6th, I had plans for a bachelor party and she dropped the bomb that she took off work because she's going out of town with om. Ugh.
That was worked out, but later in the day she was getting more emotional and upset about which blu Rays I would take, because she thought I was making a point that since I make more money and bought them, I should have all of them and another feeling of her being worthless because she makes less than me and can't provide for the family. All her words and feelings not mine. I told her while there are a lot of things about her right now I'm not particularly fond of her being a lesser provider was never a thought.
Then she started talking about mutual friends we'd have after the divorce. And then said she was upset and hurt that her sister is still close with me and ww feels is closer to me than her. Said she wishes sister would just cut me out of her life, but would never ask her to do that.
Ww then went on a tangent about how she's finally doing things for her and while she's made some [censored] up decisions had to finally do it for her. I told her I was sorry that our relationship got to a point where she no longer felt she could talk to me and the only option she felt she had was to make those bad decisions.
She said there are tons of times she goes back and forth and digs her heels in, wondering if she should do what's comfortable, but always pushes herself to break free.
I told her that's why I needed to move out because as easy as it is to blame everything on her, I need to process what I can change in me and make me a better person. I need to figure out why I allow myself to think so low of myself that I can continue to be treated like crap from someone that doesn't care about me.
She started crying and said she does care and that's why she was crying.
I told her I hope she is able to work out what it is in her that brings up these triggers and feeling and how much of it is me, the same as I am.
This is the first time I've felt she's had any sense of questioning or second guessing any decision. She still is selfish and ready to move on and I still feel she doesn't care, but she's never said anything like that since bomb drop
Had I guess a set back today. Wife was talking about when to start dividing up time with boys when I move out next week. Had our first conflict with June 6th, I had plans for a bachelor party and she dropped the bomb that she took off work because she's going out of town with om. Ugh.
That was worked out, but later in the day she was getting more emotional and upset about which blu Rays I would take, because she thought I was making a point that since I make more money and bought them, I should have all of them and another feeling of her being worthless because she makes less than me and can't provide for the family. All her words and feelings not mine. I told her while there are a lot of things about her right now I'm not particularly fond of her being a lesser provider was never a thought.
Then she started talking about mutual friends we'd have after the divorce. And then said she was upset and hurt that her sister is still close with me and ww feels is closer to me than her. Said she wishes sister would just cut me out of her life, but would never ask her to do that.
Ww then went on a tangent about how she's finally doing things for her and while she's made some [censored] up decisions had to finally do it for her. I told her I was sorry that our relationship got to a point where she no longer felt she could talk to me and the only option she felt she had was to make those bad decisions.
She said there are tons of times she goes back and forth and digs her heels in, wondering if she should do what's comfortable, but always pushes herself to break free.
I told her that's why I needed to move out because as easy as it is to blame everything on her, I need to process what I can change in me and make me a better person. I need to figure out why I allow myself to think so low of myself that I can continue to be treated like crap from someone that doesn't care about me.
She started crying and said she does care and that's why she was crying.
I told her I hope she is able to work out what it is in her that brings up these triggers and feeling and how much of it is me, the same as I am.
This is the first time I've felt she's had any sense of questioning or second guessing any decision. She still is selfish and ready to move on and I still feel she doesn't care, but she's never said anything like that since bomb drop
It's a roller coaster, brother. My STBX has had a couple of these moments, including one this morning. Stay grounded and focused. Now is the time to really stick to your plan, especially when you are searching for any sign that WW wants to return to the MR. She doesn't, at least not anytime soon.
I was intentionally not around when my STBX moved out just to avoid the emotional awkwardness of it all.
You're right defacto. On this roller coaster even now I find myself reaching for things she says not does. She is going on a trip with another man but says she finds herself fighting through being comfortable, meaning being with me. I move out next week. Her emotions are going to be tough. I'm worried my expectations will come with any sign.
She is going on a trip with another man but says she finds herself fighting through being comfortable, meaning being with me. I move out next week. Her emotions are going to be tough. I'm worried my expectations will come with any sign.
Sure thing, you are comfortable to her. You're the plan B right now. I don't know about you but when I realized this in my own sitch, it became the single greatest motivator for me to get my sh!t together. You are nobody's plan B, Ripken.
Hello Ripken,
I'm sorry to hear things didn't go well today. I agree with Defacto's last 2 posts. Do not be her "Plan B."
Although my case is different that yours, (she is living 3 1/2 hrs away w/her Mom) I have "Gone Dark" which, as Sandi pointed out, means NO contact whatsoever. We have no children together, but 3 each from previous marriages. (it's in my sig)
I haven't contacted her in almost 3 weeks. The last time she did, it was a text a little over 2 weeks ago about an AT&T bill. I never replied. This is a definite 180 for me.
It's hard to remember all she has said in the past 6+ months, but it finally hit me that, if she couldn't make it on her own (she has MS) I am her backup plan - Plan B.
Just like Defacto, that motivated me to truly stick with NC, have a PMA and GAL. Also, all of you guys helped, too.
Does all this make any sense, Rip, or am I just rambling on? LOL
I can tell how much your M means to you and you are a great guy.
Hang in there mister.
Bob
Bob/de facto, thanks. It completely makes sense. However logic doesn't always communicate with my heart. I'm sure when I go dark after moving out it will help and be easier. Can't imagine being in a constant up and down roller coaster ride by staying in the house. Wondering who's she's texting, when she's coming home, etc.
I know I'll need help IF ww ever moves towards me and starts saying things like your wife has de facto. Right now, I think I would melt.
Sure I'm no ones plan b, but right now all I think of is maybe if we tried and both got help we could finally be happier and stronger together.
The denial stage is tough
Yes rip, denial IS tough. It is a sign that you are not accepting what is happening, that your wife is free to chose her own path....that we have no control over this situation.
I Truly hope today will be a better day.
Zephyr what I meant by denial was if she started to say things like I love you or I miss you or cry about what happened, I would deny that I need to watch actions and immediately reach to take it at face value.
I've accepted my wife filed for divorce, is still seeing om and doesn't love me or want me. I've accepted I need to work on me.
On a lighter note, went to meditation today and that went well. Worked out for 1 1/2 hours and ww came and told me since I'm not getting cable in new place, she suggested she give me the username and password for showtime and HBO to go, so I can still watch those shows in my place. Not reading into it, but nice she volunteered and was being nice.
I feel even more strongly that this move will be good for both of us. Time to realize what we need or want to work on individually, how much is the other really to blame and what type of relationship either one of us wants (not needs) to have with the other.
You know what's frustrating? Over the last two days and today especially Ww will ask me "how does this look?" "Does it look like I'm losing my ass?" "Check out my tan lines (around her ass and crotch) are they even" "take a look at my stomach, it's getting toned" and "are these shorts to shorts to wear in public". Oblivious on how asking me would make me feel. I so wanted to tell her to ask Om, but I didn't.
This just adds to my feelings that she is so far in the fog that she has no idea what she is doing and how it impacts me. I tried really hard to be polite but not overly validate
Zephyr what I meant by denial was if she started to say things like I love you or I miss you or cry about what happened, I would deny that I need to watch actions and immediately reach to take it at face value.
Yes, absolutely understood. These things they say may be true, may not...we are in denial about how genuine spouse may be, it suits us for them to be true. I am so guilty of this still after all these years of struggle. That is why living for ourselves is so important, being able to be happy through our own graces and actions is paramount.
I am glad you are working on yourself, went to first meditation group this weekend, was interesting and something I will be incorporating into my routine, maybe not daily...I could feel a difference right away, crazy...right?
Not crazy at all zephyr that's how it was for me. Glad it had such an impact and hope it continues to help.
I'll need to continue to stick with what's working for me. I am worried though that if she reaches out or turns to me and I dismiss or brush off, she won't try to turn towards me again. I know that's how everyone feels, but she has a huge fear of rejection and won't continually put herself out there.
Damn. How easily I try to mindread and pretend I know what the future holds. Will go back to staying in the moment and controlling me
You know what's frustrating? Over the last two days and today especially Ww will ask me "how does this look?" "Does it look like I'm losing my ass?" "Check out my tan lines (around her ass and crotch) are they even" "take a look at my stomach, it's getting toned" and "are these shorts to shorts to wear in public". Oblivious on how asking me would make me feel. I so wanted to tell her to ask Om, but I didn't.
This just adds to my feelings that she is so far in the fog that she has no idea what she is doing and how it impacts me. I tried really hard to be polite but not overly validate
Slapping you on the upside like Gibbs with DiNozzo....
This is no fog talking. She is doing this to check if you have any interest or any reaction to those comments. She's 33 not 60!
Wonka thanks for the comedic visual. If it's not fog and she's just wanting my reaction, what for? To see if I'm still there? To be a plan b? I told her basic, you look fine or no not bad. But really didn't validate much. What else do u recommend if this continues
Wonka thanks for the comedic visual. If it's not fog and she's just wanting my reaction, what for? To see if I'm still there? To be a plan b? I told her basic, you look fine or no not bad. But really didn't validate much. What else do u recommend if this continues
Bat signaling Sandi!!!! This is right up Sandi's alley...
Anybody else with suggestions if this continues? Obviously I value Wonka and Sandi's opinions and greatly welcome them too : )
Jeez Rip this is a tough one.
I am not a vet of course but if it were me, I would not respond to those temperature checks, I would just casually get up and leave the room or space. I would not respond to that. I think it is incredibly disrespectful to you and is clearly putting you in the Friend Zone. "How do I look as I get ready to go on a date" kind of thing.
Just my .02 cents.
I agree, Heavy. And I've seen every side of the "worry about friend zone" argument, so not sure where I stand on that. See both sides.
With this being my last week, I'm trying to be as cordial as I can and again, allow myself to be myself in reacting to HER interactions, not pursuing or initiating on my own. I don't flirt with her or give her much reassurance at all. In fact, when she asked about "are these shorts too short to go out in?" I responded with "I'm not sure, but where what you're comfortable with. It doesn't matter to me what you wear."
Any other opinions or suggestions. I'm sure the flow of things from guilt to control to temperate checking will continue and I can't read into things, but would like to know how to react. This is all new for me, but seems common with ww.
She is being nicer and even told me to have a good day before work. Doesn't sound like much but since bd, just comes and goes without any word. It is nicer being more cordial.
I would look at her with an upturned eyebrow, and say "You're kidding, right?", and then walk away.
Kramer, I tried that approach while living here. And with the try and see if it works mantra, it didn't. She began to shut down, paid no attention to me and pretty much tried to be as short and mean as she could. This also impacted her desire to want to communicate on just about anything.
She was mad, bitter and scared and told me she felt I basically didn't give a [censored] about her or anything. While I didn't and still don't reassure her of that, I noticed when I don't initiate, pursue and instead give friendly minimal reactions to her talks or stories, I get better interactions from her.
This has made it easier for me to live in the same house with her until I move out this weekend. After then, yes I plan on dropping off the face of the earth. It was just what to do as this could happen when I leave.
Based on what everyone said.
What's also made it easier is ww not coming back to the house after work. Said she was going to a friends and then nothing. Could be what' she's doing, I'm actually ok even if it's not. Her not being around isn't bad tonite.
For me it's just annoying. We seemed to have some nice family moments and we were more cordial together than we've been in months. But again, things get too comfortable or happy for her around me and she has to run from it.
If she ever questioned things I don't think she'd allow herself to really question it or turn around. There I go mind reading.
Hi Ripken, I would say as little as possible about the whole tan line, shorts, look at my tummy & bottom thing. It all has the air of 'gay friend zone' about it IMO. Either that, or she's still keen to keep you 'on the hook' by drawing your attention to her body.
I quite like the idea of a raised eyebrow and a 'really?" As in - you're really asking me this?? Or, maybe just go for 'distracted air' - & a "just go with what you're comfortable with W' and then leave the room.
Thanks Toots - especially with moving out, if it comes up again, I will do that suggestion you and Kramer gave. Going dark and not being in the same house, makes this approach much easier.
"Wonka thanks for the comedic visual. If it's not fog and she's just wanting my reaction, what for? To see if I'm still there? To be a plan b? I told her basic, you look fine or no not bad. But really didn't validate much. What else do u recommend if this continues
Bat signaling Sandi!!!! This is right up Sandi's alley..."
Sandi - I know you are busy. Any suggestions on this? I welcome your feedback, as always!
Rip,
I think I would have probably responded along the lines of her being free to dress anyway she likes. In regards to the other stuff, just be the man of steel and try to not let it move you.
Believe it or not, my STBX did some of the same junk. Pretty warped stuff. She will get real confused and curious when you pay no mind.
De facto, you my friend are a step ahead of me. It's like you're halfway through the same scary movie, so you can give me a heads up on when to cover my eyes.
Thanks for the heads up. I'll be on the lookout for that especially after I leave. Glad the trip went well. I hope one day my ww ends the affair and starts turning towards me like yours is. By that point you can fill me in on what to do next : )
Update on my getting a life. Have a meetup group tomorrow, piano bar that should be a good time. I like this group and am starting to make some new friends.
After moving out this weekend, I start weekly softball on Tuesdays, and Buddhist temple/meditation every Sunday. Working out 5 times a week and trying to do more meet ups, keeping busy! I think I have something going on every weekend from now until the middle to end of July.
I'm doing a 5k once a month and Saturday the 30th I take the Mensa exam. Not really expecting much, just always wanted to see where I'd stack up, so why not.
Awesome list of GAL activities. Keep up the good work Ripken.
Where exactly do you find these meetup groups? I really should be reaching out to new people, always have been introverted/anti-social.
Hello Ripken,
Thank you, as always for your suppport. Especially recently with my uncertainty about the reply I should make to my W.
I just caught up on your sitch. I haven't peeked in for a few days. I love what Defacto wrote just before your last post:
"She will get real confused and curious when you pay no mind."
That is very true! I learned that about my WAW, but it took me a long time.
You are a great guy. I want to dedicate a prayer to you tonight hoping your sitch turns around real soon. But you will need a lot of patience. Don't give up...I'm glad I didn't!
Here's a little Bible verse I hope you find inspirational:
“The LORD is close to the brokenhearted and saves those who are crushed in spirit” (Psalm 34:18).
Rip, you're gonna make it.
Take care, sir.
Bob
Fogg, it should just be meetup.com or Google meetup. They are all over so I'm sure some in your area and can check out all the activities and groups that fit you. The cool thing is EVERYONE is in the same boat as you, trying to get out there so it's a room full of comfortable strangers that hopefully become friends.
Bob, thanks as always. You are prob the biggest cheerleader of anyone on these boards. I'm not giving up dbing for me, because I'm proud of the person I'm becoming. Whether my ww ever sees that or not is out of her control, I know that now.
Update on my getting a life. Have a meetup group tomorrow, piano bar that should be a good time. I like this group and am starting to make some new friends.
After moving out this weekend, I start weekly softball on Tuesdays, and Buddhist temple/meditation every Sunday. Working out 5 times a week and trying to do more meet ups, keeping busy! I think I have something going on every weekend from now until the middle to end of July.
I'm doing a 5k once a month and Saturday the 30th I take the Mensa exam. Not really expecting much, just always wanted to see where I'd stack up, so why not.
Rip,
This GAL list is incredible! Great work. I am intrigued by the meditation stuff. I've always wanted to check that out.
Heading out for the meetup group. Came back to the house and ate dinner and played a game with the boys. Ww wanted to show me her pants were getting bigger. I ignored at first and when she showed again, said "great" and walked away. She seemed a little disappointed, fine by me.
She later wanted to switch gears and called me over to talk to me about something "important". Turns out it was only to ask me what gym equipment I was planning to take, nothing important at all.
She's definitely initiating more convos with me. Not mind reading and have no expectations.
The things I know is I'm going out tonight and looking forward to it. I'm moving out in 2 days and looking forward to it and she is still seeing om so there is no Us.
That's about all I know and I can only control me. Pretty sure my rope is dropped.
Rip, thanks for keeping us up to date and I am super glad you are getting out tonight!!!
Ugh. Moving out SAT, but the ww and I have procrastinated, so haven't had the talk with the boys. We both agree we are going to keep it to the seperation not divorce or house for sale because those things are down the road. Want to stagger and get them adjusted to it. Since we seperated 3 years ago, they boys handled it well and I'm sure they will do well here too, more than me.
WW texted me to see if I think we should go out to eat someplace nice and tell them. Wanted my suggestions as to where. I'm really triggered and started to feel sad with "the talk". I know it will go better than I expect, but just another feeling of things getting more finalized. Especially as she's the one pushing it.
Rip,
It looks like you are handling the upcoming transition well. Continue to be confident in the face of uncertainty.
Now is the time to really be a rock for your sons. Be at peace that you are doing everything possible to potentially save your MR and take care of yourself for their sake and your own.
I'm trying to. The sad thing is sometimes I'm with them, I feel like I let them down, because this is my fault - it's not, I know that, but they deserve to have a complete home with a mom and a dad that both love them and in that aspect, I feel like I failed them.
I will take it in stride. At least this will be something ww and I can be on the same side on and be cordial, polite and unified. As weird as it sounds, that may actually be nice.
Went as well as I thought it could. The boys understood and had no questions, very resilient. Afterwards ww and I talked about selling the house and she brought up she needs to leave tomorrow night because it hurts her to much to see me go after 14 years. Said she had a breakdown Monday. I just spent time validating and listening to her.
I actually feel really good. Excited to move out and now that the boys know, not worried or have any more scary conversations to have.
I really think she's going to continue to push through the divorce and will continue the affair. No talk of reconciliation or wanting anything to change. Right now I'm ok and good with that. I actually feel like I'm dropping the rope and it feels amazing!
Right now I'm ok and good with that. I actually feel like I'm dropping the rope and it feels amazing!
Glad to hear you felt it went well. I'm really impressed with how good you are doing these days, Rip. Keep it up!
Thanks. I saw my ic today. She said in the 5 years she's known me I am the healthiest physically, mentally and emotionally she's ever seen.
I told her it's because I chose to work on me and be the best me possible with this time, rather than just let my ww bring me down and depressed.
Was happy my ic and others notice this, but told her I was sad that my ww is the one who doesn't. We both agreed it is because she is still having the affair
I love the attitude lately! I am glad you are working on Rip2.0!!!
Talk went as well with the kids as possible. They seem resiliant, no questions. Didn;t discuss D or house going up for sales, just that we'll be in different places, that we love them, that it's not their fault and 50/50 split time. Afterwards ww and I talked for about 1 1/2 hours. She said that even though she wanted the D, it's still hard on her. Said she had a breakdown Monday and cried all day. Then said she would rather not be at the house tonight when I pack, because it's too hard to see. Finally, she wanted to talk about the temporary payments and was saying she would agree to what my lawyer and I proposed for a counter offer. She was much more agreeable and communicating with me, when normally her MO is to avoid anything uncomfortable. I really feel I didn't pursue or give in. When she cried and talked about how hard it is, I STFU and didn't validate much.
Today I started to get triggered by small things and then try and bring myself back. I have an opportunity to work on me and make myself better. She is still seeing OM, she still is pursuing D. Nothing I can do about that. Plan now is to go dark, GAL and keep a PMA.
Update: the move went great. The day of the move ww was off and seemed pretty sad. She was almost overly nice and accommodating. She gave me different things around the house she thought I would need and went to the store to buy Tupperware because she knew I wouldn't remember them and have tons of food I couldn't save. As I left I looked her in the eyes and told her to take care of herself. She looked like she was going to cry and told me to do the same.
After that spent the weekend with the boys getting settled, setting up things and with friends from out of town. Had a blast with the kids and friends yesterday doing barbecue and outdoor games.
I dropped the kids off at the house this morning so today is my first day alone in the new place. I'm keeping busy by doing a 1 1/2 hour long workout, some laundry and chores around the place. I may go shopping and return some items and if it stays nice, relax by the pool. Was hoping to meet up with some friends later, but if not I'll prob stay home and watch a movie.
Trying to get used to this change and be ok with the constant feelings coming and going. Ww texted me about something I forgot out the house, but it's not important, so I won't respond. Going to be hard to interact with her as she'll be dropping boys off at 530 or so in the morning and never coming up. She may even pick them up on her days to minimize that. We'll have to see where this goes, but I can use help on how to maximize the limited interactions we will have. Suggestions are definitely appreciated.
"The Phoenix must burn to emerge." I feel reborn.
Trying to get used to this change and be ok with the constant feelings coming and going. Ww texted me about something I forgot out the house, but it's not important, so I won't respond. Going to be hard to interact with her as she'll be dropping boys off at 530 or so in the morning and never coming up. She may even pick them up on her days to minimize that. We'll have to see where this goes, but I can use help on how to maximize the limited interactions we will have. Suggestions are definitely appreciated.
"The Phoenix must burn to emerge." I feel reborn.
Hey Ripken,
What an emotional day it must have been for you, but it sounds like you handled it very well. Well done, my man! Honestly, the emotional roller coaster will probably get bumpier before it starts to smooth out. I love your Phoenix quote, that's the spirit! Rip Version 2.0.
As for how to maximize the limited interactions you will have, this may seems obvious but try to keep them short and end them gracefully. Try to stick to the subject and no talk about reconiliation or your feelings.
Another thing I thought of, is to do what I do. If I get a text or VM from my W, and I'm not sure how to reply, I post on the forum and someone will always step up (you have!)and help me. Just today, I got advice from several people, and Wonka stepped up big time. She wrote to me today that this is second nature to her.
Patience, my friend. I am really proud of how far you have come.
Bob
Thanks, bob. You've come a long way, too. I tried not to put too much thought or worry into going dark or what limited interaction would look like or if ww would view going dark as me not caring, because I wasn't moved out yet. Now that I am, I'm sure that will start to sink in more and I'll be left with a lot of questions.
But I. Sure you, wonka, Sandi, heavy, Matt, de facto, Kramer and everyone else on this board will continue to be there with support and advice. No way I'd come this far without all of you!
Rip, you're so welcome and thank you for the encouraging words!
That's a good way to handle almost anything with DB'ing: don't put too much thought into things such as going dark, etc. That may sound funny coming from me. I'm probably one of the most "guilty" members in our "DB Family" of over-thinking things.
You're a step ahead of me, sir!
Yes, they will all be here. what would we do without them and each other? Such a blessing.
Chin up, I have a feeling you're going to get thru this.
I will dedicate a prayer to you and Mrs. Ripken right after I click on "Submit."
Bob
Rip,
I'm stoked to hear things are going well with your new place. Keep posting so we can help each other every step of the way. WW will probably give you the "I miss you" speech soon so be ready for it.
Thanks bob and de facto. I'm not sure about the I miss you speech. Just a couple days ago, she asked for my help to get more involved in selling the house and is looking at places to move to. The two of us living in separate places with no home to go back to doesn't seem ideal for reconciliation.
Rip,
The two of us living in separate places with no home to go back to doesn't seem ideal for reconciliation.
You need to know that the VAST MAJORITY of Success Stories involved physical separation. This works because it allows the WAS to see changes in you and miss the essence of the LBS. On several levels, this is a good thing in my opinion.
Keep going!
Wonka - you have no idea how great that makes me feel! I have always questioned that and felt that with DB preaching stay in the same home, I was hurting my chances, even though I felt I needed to do it for me.