Well I danced with the sea creature in the abyss and now I just need to get back to be-ing. Last thread locked so I will paste this here by way of recap for those just joining. Will come back to respond to the kind words by Jim, Calibri, Toots, V, Maybell, Zelda and Gg.
For those just joining: meet ups every 2-3 months since separation Jun 2014, tonight was the first time I saw H since Dec 2014 with 1-2 texts since then, apparently no committed OW. Generally detached and good PMA with pretty good GAL. Few backslides except the occasional pity party, generally self-inflicted).
... ... ... ...
THE SKINNY:
Well that was a disaster. The punch line: I went running after, gave him a hug, and finished by saying I will expect to see the papers in the mail come June. No wait...I called him back after I got home and said that I think I failed to convey that regardless of how this ends I did enjoy our time together. He wanted to end the call since it's been a long night. He did say "he's got a lot to think about" a few times during the evening.
... ... ... ...
THE LOW DOWN:
Usual chit chat for a while until he says it: his new years resolution was to have a better relationship with me, though he doesn't really know what that involves.
Now call me stupid but I took that as a positive signal....
So I said something to the effect of: thank you for sharing that with me. Something I've been wondering about was if we might maybe meet up a bit more regularly?
To which he said: What do you mean?
To which I said: Like sometimes I see things that would be fun to do and I think about calling you and asking if you wanted to come.
To which he said: No he doesn't want that.
To which I said: errr.....so can you clarify what you mean when you say you'd like to have a better relationship with me?
He couldn't and then I should have STFU.
The subsequent conversation went around in circles. He wants to be friends, doesn't want a romantic relationship (doesn't see how things could be different, we're just different people), but since we spent a long time together feels like that should count for something ("society demands it", "plenty of other people are friends with their Xs"). I said well no, not really interested in that as you've hurt me a lot. Can go separate ways if we want (no kids, no major assets), not really getting much out of "friendship" as is though.
Since I'd already dug my hole I figured I may as well get more info. I asked flat out if he was seeing anyone right now - sounds like no but he "has been on a few dates". I asked if the dating started before we separated - he said no (and gave me a big stare). He asked if I had been dating and then added gee its been 10 months surely you've been dating - I said I didn't want to get into it. (He made a few references throughout the night about how he wasn't sure how much we should sharing with each other).
I said - so when we first separated you said you didn't know what the outcome would be. I asked if his position had changed. He said he didn't understand what I meant. I clarified. He repeated that he didn't understand the question. Long story short I basically coerced him into saying the words "we will be getting a divorce" though he never used the word "divorce" until after I spelled it out to him. Gah!
He did reinforce that the biggest issues were:
- I don't listen and he'd given up on telling me how he feels because there was no point*
- we had no outside interests, there was just the relationship
- work life balance was an issue for me**
* this boils down to what he thinks he conveyed vs what I think he conveyed. I agree that I was not always giraffe ears, but I also think he was a Nice Guy. In other words, we both have things to work on.
** I'll own my part in bringing home work stress and having a job that takes me away 2-3 times a year (so does he). I do draw the line in a lot of areas though (rarely working at nights/weekends, turning email off on weekends). I feel like he has unreasonable expectations yet never did we sit down and talk about what changes needed to be made to save the R. And certainly when we first met I was freaking vet student so busy all the time.
I did convey:
- yep - I appreciate that it may have seemed that I wasn't listening at times (though my attempt to use an example may have backfired)
- yep - emotional fusion - common problem in long term relationships and help is available for couples like us...which is why this is so frustrating to me (he never did read Passionate Marriage)
- I'm not asking him to come back to an unhappy marriage
- why not try hanging out a bit more and seek how it goes - no expectations (was the gist of my original response to his new years resolution)
So yeah...after he left, I ran after him and said this may be the last time so we may as well hug. It was a long hug that was reciprocated. And then I called him after I got home. There was confusion on the call - he seems to think that he always responded to my emails/texts since we separated. My experience is different.
... ... ...
So confusion all round. Not my best DBing and frankly I'm pretty close to done. I look across the table at him and feel like I've been here before - a partner who is not willing to work on the M even now things are out in the open.
I feel like this was my final showdown. Sure there was pursuit but I left the ball squarely in his court. Take it or leave it. He says he's leaving it though I swear he keeps adding something to the effect of "not right now".
It hurts to know that he says he was feeling so hurt and that I didn't recognise this while we were M...and that I can't convey my remorse over that. That hurts more than the pain he's put me through the past 10 months to be honest (though he said multiple times that I'm a nice person). Maybe I am just in the "too little, too late" camp.
Please, I need some 2 X 4s as well as a new way forward. Thoughts very appreciated. Total NC has not changed much in 10 months. A 180 would be to engage more frequently but to do so would ignore the fact that he just told me he does't want to increase interaction and will file come June (though it seems I just pushed him in that direction).
I don't think my heart will recover if he files. I think that will be the end for me.
Wow
Sounds like you did a lot of pursuing in that convo when he clearly did not take well to it. And you ran after him? And then you hugged him? And then you called him after you got home? And then he ended the conversation?
Would that be known as a backslide? Oh well, happens to me too. There is always tomorrow and a chance to do better.
As Wonka tells me often, I need to drink up the tasty STFU juice. My humble suggestion is to GAL, PMA and just leave him alone. He clearly knows how you feel so leave it at that.
I know this hurts so much, and you are feeling desperate but hang in there. Keep DBing. Your heart will recover with him or without him. You are a whole person on your own. You don't need him, you may very well want him, but you can do this either way.
Heavy D - 10+ months of no pursuit, no going after answers and STFU. I think most familiar with my sitch would agree that mine has been one of the darkest here - NC actually means NC. H left few clues from the beginning. There comes a time when you need more information in order to move forward.
Cadet - I appreciate your attempt to keep order on the forums by adding the link to my old thread. Along with a minor name change I actually made a conscious decision to try to step away from my old threads as someone I know is reading these forums. Those who want to know more about my sitch can figure it out using the basic search function. Can you please remove the link?
Cadet,
Not sure if you saw ^^ that or not.
Gan has kindly requested that you please remove the link of her previous thread. Thanks much.
Can you please remove the link?
OK sorry that has happened to you.
I am an expert at being stalked on forums.
Let me know if there is anything else you would like me to do to help that part out.
You can send me a private message by notifying on this post.
Heavy D - 10+ months of no pursuit, no going after answers and STFU. I think most familiar with my sitch would agree that mine has been one of the darkest here - NC actually means NC. H left few clues from the beginning. There comes a time when you need more information in order to move forward.
Makes sense. I can see how getting clear rejection and dismissal signs can help overcoming clinging denial and help deal with reality, striving towards acceptance. That's the one thing about going dark- it gives you a lot of time to project and imagine fictitious things about what's going through your WAS's head. Sometimes it helps to see the person they really are, and how they really feel. And...if it helps reach detachment, maybe that will be the best strategic step as well.
Gan- take care and thanks for posting on my thread. I didn't realize I was so negative before. I truly consider myself a very positive person. But I guess this road would make even Ned Flanders utter a "phooey" once or twice.
HD - Gan has had the least amount of contact with her H during her seperation - I can think of only maybe two others who have been as NC as she has.
Yes, there is a time to STFU, and I'm sure she applied it to her meeting as well as several times through her NC. But, some times there is a time when you don't STFU and I think this time was appropriate.
Gan followed her heart, and I applaud her for that.
Sometimes we have to go against the grain to get what we need, to be ok with at the end of it all.
Yeah, that would be me, haven't clapped eyes on the man since 2 September 14 or the 22 October, before that sometime in July. He seems to have only noticed the nc by October, which was 10months.
There is nothing else. I do tend to avoid places I have a fair idea he might be. The gossips tell me he's beating the bushes pretty hard, for Info.
Bit odd he doesn't want the truth, but then it's easier to justify if you don't have the truth and make me whole problem, but then he's in an a, which he chose willingly over me.
Gan, I'm glad you left that pesky ole sea monster in the abyss, and are back to be-ing.
As you know, I'm in the group of long time NC. I've not actually seen H since August '14, and only spoken once by phone for 20 minutes in the last six months. I can certainly understand the need for answers in our kind of scenario.
Of course the answer may not be what we want to hear. Your choice reminds me of advice Miman posted from his DB coach on this thread. Struck a chord with me anyway.
What I would say to you (and I say to myself) is this is just a point where we are at in our sitches. You have the 'now' answer. Whether that answer will be the same in 3,6, 9 months is unknown. And only you can decide what you want to do.
For me, I feel a slow erosion of love and respect for my H. And his recent/current actions show me that he is still foggy, which doesn't give me much hope for my sitch in the short term. Whether he and I could come back from that, I don't know. Do I want to? I don't know. Sometimes I wonder why I am still here doing this? Is it just a dogged, "well I've started this so I'll finish....."
Lots of uncertainty. And I do think your H's answers still sound pretty confused. But I do think the answer is to keep on with that direction of travel - forwards. And in time, things will become clearer.
We all wrestle with the sea monster from time to time, which is painful. But also painfully useful and it does move us forward.
Have a good weekend Gan xx
Cadet - thanks and no worries - you weren't to know. It's probably no big deal. Just feel a bit "safer" this way.
I'm at my folks place for Easter so only able to write on my phone. Thanks for all who have stopped by. I'll respond after the weekend.
Just back from Easter weekend with the family. It as a nice weekend but my head was elsewhere a lot of the time. Finally able to post my replies to your earlier comments. Hope everyone had a great Easter weekend (or regular old weekend if Easter isn’t your thing).
… … …
Calibri: I've not read NMMNG but I get the premise of the book based on what I read here. Yes, I think he probably is a Nice Guy. Am I going to have to make the decision? Maybe. No rush just yet though as we can’t file for another month or so. I do need to make the decision to re-commit to moving forward with my life. Thanks for sharing your story re sending letters. I do wonder how things would have played out had I taken this approach from the beginning and not allowed us to go so long in between contact….
Jim: once again you came to the rescue with your words. Even in my darkest hour you made me laugh with your remark about the UK. It's a great quality, Jim. Thanks for sharing it with me and others on the forum.
Toots: actually I still don't get the impression that there was an OW at BD (could be wrong of course). My take on the stare is that he was annoyed that I keep asking if there was an OW at BD (to be clear, this is only the second time - the first was at BD). If there was no OW I can see how the suggestion would be offensive. On the dating front, he didn't sound super enthusiastic about things, though he may just be keeping it on the down low since he was talking to me.
Vanilla: yes, I think H is re-writing some of our history though he did acknowledge that we had some good times and also makes a lot of sense about how unhappy we were. He often exclaims - gee, we saw our R completely differently...like I thought everything was all peachy, while he saw it as less so. In truth, like many here I was probably a WAW who never walked because I loved my H, acknowledged that no R would be perfect and resigned myself to carrying on. For a lot of the time I felt like I was walking on eggshells whilst wading through a pool of sludge. But I never would have described myself as globally unhappy in my M, just unhappy about specific areas that I felt we needed to work on. Unfortunately I was too focussed on how H was contributing to these problem areas (e.g. by withdrawing and avoiding the issues) rather than seeing my own role in the dynamic (e.g. controlling, bringing home work stress, not wearing my giraffe ears…) Lot’s of regrets rolling around at the moment.
Maybell: Gaslighting? Interesting thought. I'm not sure if H was deliberately trying to misrepresent things or if he himself is confused. If it was deliberate then it was wasted on me - I'm wasn't left questioning my version of events. But something to keep an eye on if I interact with him again.
Zelda: If I met this cloudy person on a date would I be impressed? I find that a hard question to answer. He’s clearly hurt by the course of events and I have a lot of compassion for that. I think he would come across differently if we were dating.
Toots, Gg: My sisters in prolonged periods of NC. Sigh. The only other LBW I've come across who seems to have faced a similar scenario is Labug. Are there others that you know of?
Zeus/Zues: Thanks for stopping by. Not sure that you became negative so much as less hopeful in your sitch...and that happened at a time when I was trying to stay hopeful in mine. But I'm glad to see you back on the boards.
Wonka: I get the impression you lurk a bit here as you pop up every now and then when I don’t expect it. Vets seem to come and go on my thread (MrBond, Labug) but they never seem to get very involved. I’ve always wondered why that is… Do things just seem...hopeless?
... ... ...
And a few more thoughts now that I've had more time to reflect on our meetup:
- H sounded pretty resolute that he doesn't want a romantic relationship with me. I know most of you have been here before and you've managed to keep on keeping on. This was a first for me. At BD he "didn't know what the outcome would be.”
- seems like H might not have actually researched D yet as he referred to June as the date we can file when actually you can file something like 28 days before the 12 month anniversary after separation
- he sounded like he may have been tearful when I called him back (as was I). But I suppose that's not surprising - surely most WAS grieve the R even if it was their decision to leave?
- I am not happy with the way I conducted myself the other night. I managed to STFU to a point but then the reptile brain kicked in when I felt H slipping away. I became flooded and said things I shouldn't have (which resulted in him feeling like I was blaming him and no doubt triggered negative emotions in him). I really need to address this. I need to get back into my yoga and meditation practice and be more self-aware. I slipped when I went to Europe.
- I think my optimistic nature is interfering with my ability to accept the situation for what it is. I've spent the last few days trying to remind myself of H's words (he doesn't want a romantic relationship with me) whenever feelings of hope return
Hi Gan. Happy Easter.
I'm going to take a wild swing at the vets commenting thing. I notice that for the most part they tend to filter out to the people they can connect with and who really benefit from their guidance.
Whenever someone needs help with scripting and validation Wonka appears, if someone is wrestling with wet noodle then starsky is normally around. Labug and Underdog really seem to be cheerleaders for that introspection and self improve journey. And so on...
I think its something like that saying about help will appear when you are ready to receive it. (Anyways I suspect they read a lot more than they post and if you are reading then a big Thank you to all)
One thing that is common is that the more contact with the WAS there is, the more people can give views and advice.
So back to you. Well there's a lot of positive to say about you which you can learn just from your posts. Given the way you don't contact him , lead a interesting life and have improved as a person then to me that says your situation is more about him than you or your M.
And unfortunately there's no advice we can give you to deal with his issues.
I appreciate this all might sound a bit pessimistic or like I'm saying its hopeless but its not. Just saying that you can only control one side of the equation.
As for the optimism, well that's a good thing. But see if you can shift its focus to be optimistic about YOU and YOUR future irrespective of your H. You'll be fine and it'll be good because you already are and it already is.
By the way the UK is beautifully sunny at the moment.
... ... ...
And a few more thoughts now that I've had more time to reflect on our meetup:
- H sounded pretty resolute that he doesn't want a romantic relationship with me. I know most of you have been here before and you've managed to keep on keeping on. This was a first for me. At BD he "didn't know what the outcome would be.”
AT BD, I got don't know the outcome. Then two weeks later I got the "no way we're getting back together" and then I got "I'm open to whatever happens in the future" and then lather, rinse repeat. For six months. That's just my sitch, and I attribute it alot to H's depression and people pleasing and just inability to make a decision in life right now.
Now, having said that -- with the amount of NC, your H may indeed be resolute that he doesn't want a romantic relationship. Can you remind me why you went so long between contact? If I remember correctly, didn't he suggest it?
- seems like H might not have actually researched D yet as he referred to June as the date we can file when actually you can file something like 28 days before the 12 month anniversary after separation
I wouldn't read too much into this. My H dropped bomb #768743523497 in MC that he was going to file for divorce from me, in October, and that he thought that, "I should know." And my retort was....we have to be separated for a year before you can do that. And when my MIL said the same thing to me? That was my same retort. Maybe they just make assumptions, maybe they don't know. Maybe they are clueless.
- I am not happy with the way I conducted myself the other night. I managed to STFU to a point but then the reptile brain kicked in when I felt H slipping away. I became flooded and said things I shouldn't have (which resulted in him feeling like I was blaming him and no doubt triggered negative emotions in him). I really need to address this. I need to get back into my yoga and meditation practice and be more self-aware. I slipped when I went to Europe.
Address with him or yourself?
- I think my optimistic nature is interfering with my ability to accept the situation for what it is. I've spent the last few days trying to remind myself of H's words (he doesn't want a romantic relationship with me) whenever feelings of hope return
*hug*
So, having thought over things, is there anything else you'd want to do, or do differently? I'm a no regrets type gal -- so I always think that way. Are you at peace with it all should the path continue this way?
Thanks, Jim. What you say makes sense re the vets. And don't get me wrong - I am so grateful for everyone who stops by. Truly, you, Toots, V, LisaB, Gg, Calibri, Zelda mean a lot to me and I don't even know you! I just your inner most thoughts...
I know I will be ok. I just wanted our M to work out.
I just wanted our M to work out.
I think most of us here felt that way.
Can you remind me why you went so long between contact? If I remember correctly, didn't he suggest it?
Well, most advice on here is to not make contact. Now I suspect I may have had an easier time with NC than others without kids (read: I'm stubborn) and so days easily turned to months. There were a couple of times I reached out via text but that resulted in a non-response or decline for further contact. I've mostly let H do the driving.
Address with him or yourself?
Ha! The letter
is drafted but not sent. Nah...I was mostly meaning me. Went to yoga tonight and reminded myself why I started in the first place.
So, having thought over things, is there anything else you'd want to do, or do differently? I'm a no regrets type gal -- so I always think that way. Are you at peace with it all should the path continue this way?
No I'm not at peace with it but I don't think I have many options left, do I?! I did draft a heart felt letter but I just don't get the impression he's open to hearing my perspectives. Maybe that will change, maybe it won't. I'm off to Tanzania next week so most likely will do nada till after then. Next step will probably be to meet with a L sadly.
There was an article in the newspaper the past weekend titled "Living solo in [city where I live]: successful women and lonely men"
"Women who live alone, particularly those younger than under 40, tend to be well-educated, have professional jobs and earn high incomes. By contrast, men who live alone, particularly middle-aged men, are less educated and earn lower incomes than other men. They are also twice as likely not to work at all."
Great.
I was especially delighted to learn that I now fit into the demographic category known as "lone-person household".
Also great.
Enough with the middle aged, though having said that I realise I'm about to start entering veterans age groups at my squash club.
you should know you also fit into the demographic of highly intelligent globe trotting professionals (who get excellent feedback on their courses)
Tend is the key word, averages and relative calculations can be really misleading plus there is a whole load of causal factors not discussed, for example (and i dont believe this but its an example) if the only thing women tended to find attractive was income then you'd get exactly that finding.
Besides if/when you do start looking then you only need one.... And things will find a way to make sure you find him
Ah. Yes. It can feel dismal looking out at the future.
I know I have a few friends who are in this demographic - one or two that are relentlessly picky, quick to find something wrong with every male, hearts closed hard. They have come out of heart break, also.
The key words here in your study are 'most' - look at this forum! There are plenty of men here who have a lot to offer who also got their hearts broken. Divorced men, men who've been single all their life - they're all out there and not all losers, lol.
And you my friend - well, you're a world traveler who I believe will come out of this strong and with a heart open. Don't give up on yourself. I am also scared, and I know what it feels like to be this age thinking, "now what?"
But there was a special moment on my way home (brief hijack, warning) I pulled over and started bawling my eyes out, realizing how things really could never be the same again, how I was truly done, just tremendous emotion. And then - my FB messenger started going off with a friend of a friend asking for me to give him lessons. So out of the blue. I'll admit that in all of my thoughts of the future w/o H, this dude is the first face I picture - he's funny, hot, driven, seems genuinely at home in his own skin, and I love the way I feel around him the few times we've ran into each other socially - I laugh so easily and he has such a bright and kind spirit. I've imagined in my darkest times in DR that this dude is the kind of person I want to draw toward me when I am ready. (I'm no where near ready.) But it was incredible, as I was crying tears of letting go, after all afternoon reading articles about what it is to be with someone who 100% wants you - that at that moment I had the randomest contact from him.
I share this because I think the universe does really give back to us what we choose to manifest, and the signs will be there, the doors will open when we are ready to close other rooms.
I believe in you, Gan! You have done the kind of introspection most people barely touch on, and I believe you'll be richly rewarded in happiness for the future. May you never have another year of waiting on one foot.
It strikes me that in a lot of these situations where piecing was successful, the LBS truly gave up and dropped the rope. Not all of our WAS return even with a rope dropped, that is a certainty. Try to understand nothing you do or don't do will make your H return to you, and if he does, it's his choice alone - and yours finally, if you still want him if that should ever happen.
You did all you could. Go forth and prosper! Be radiant.
There was an article in the newspaper the past weekend titled "Living solo in [city where I live]: successful women and lonely men"
"Women who live alone, particularly those younger than under 40, tend to be well-educated, have professional jobs and earn high incomes. By contrast, men who live alone, particularly middle-aged men, are less educated and earn lower incomes than other men. They are also twice as likely not to work at all."
Great.
I was especially delighted to learn that I now fit into the demographic category known as "lone-person household".
Also great.
Bet it was full of adverts for dating sites!
The paper will print what ever it thinks people want to read, so what better thing to print single lonely stories. Then next week it will be success of net dating.
Cynical you bloody bet.
Greetings from Arusha, Tanzania, fellow DBers! Arrived here late last night sans luggage. I guess I proved my theory wrong - that packing a full set of clothes in your hand luggage guarantees that your checked luggage will actually show up. Anyways I did and it didn't, so I'm managing in the meantime. Hope it arrives soon!
Had a full day in the field. Just posted photos on my FB showing Maasai helping get our vehicle out of the mud. Today was a hoot!
Ahhh Tanzania is beautiful.
Enjoy your trip!
Hi G! I missed you!
I haven't been around here but I have been thinking of you and hoped things were going well.
Sounds like you have had a bit of a downswing lately with this latest meetup. Do you want to know my take? Probably not haha but here goes:
- He's disappointed with the past and can't see positive in the future. No matter what you "say" he won't change his mind. It's in his head.
- You pursued a little too much in the meetup, but I get it. You want answers and you want to convince him.
- I fear this is one of those cases where you will get divorced and both move on and 10 years later he will tell you he made a mistake. But he won't realize it until he has a new relationship and the same thing happens again.
I think you have to live for yourself at this point. Decide what you want to do for you, "waiting" around for him isn't seeming to work. He's not seeming to understand anything new, and your rare communications aren't helping matters much. The only thing I can think is to send him an email and put it ALL out there in clear writing - exactly what you think you two can do to move on. He seems he is still running and putting his head in the sand.
That's just my 2cents. I'll write on my thread about my latest situation. Maybe that is clouding my vision of yours. But I truly hope you are doing well and having a good time on your trip, and that you get your luggage!!!
Big hugs!
LisaB
Gan, what an exciting life you lead! I hope your luggage turns up. I once flew to New York from Maine via Boston - but my luggage went on to Philadelphia. I was stranded without it for 24 hours.
I hope you have a good trip
Hi Gan,
How's Tanzania? Do you have your luggage yet?
Gan
I am so envious and the option to buy new s
V
Hey Superstar! You wouldn't be an anthropologist girl would you? Just wondering...
I kind of agree with Lisa above. dR Is about checking in on results and doing something different if it's not effective, right? What do you have to lose at this point. Just don't beg but maybe it is a letter to send?
I am no one to give insight or advice right now but it's a thought.
Thanks for checking in guys. Been super busy here.
Lisa - will get back to you about the R. My head isn't in that space right now (detachment?)
Zelda - nope, not an anthropologist though thoroughly fascinated by culture (see below).
So the luggage arrived on Wednesday, as did the warm showers. Didn't make it into the field today because the road was flooded and we couldn't cross. But I've spent the week up close and personal with Maasai and their cattle. It's been fascinating on multiple levels.
Got me thinking a lot about the role of Western culture in our current situations. We interpret our experiences through our thoughts, feelings and emotions. I guess I assume most of these to be "biologically programmed" - chemical changes causing me to feel a certain way to a certain stimulus (e.g. relationship breakdown). But...our culture plays a huge role here. In Western cultures, marriage is between two people. We speak of "love" and "soul mates." An OW/OM entering the picture makes most of us feel physically sick to the stomach.
...versus a different cultural model:
Most of the Maasai men have multiple wives, all living as "neighbours" in the same "housing complex." The men have children with these different wives, and all the wives and children interact on a daily basis. Do they feel jealous at each other? Sad that they can't spend enough alone time with their H? Is there such a thing as an OW? I have no idea. BTW I learned that the going rate for a "good wife" these days is 10 cows. I'm guessing a wife only a fool would leave would go for 11-12.
Heading home tomorrow...will check in on everyone's threads when I get back. Hoping for good things!
Hi Gan - fascinating! Sounds like it has been a good trip.
ps: I think you are a 15 cow wife
What if you only have chickens?
Just chickens may mean that you don't get to have the wife, but you do get to look after the cows...
There must be a cow/chicken exchange rate, though it may need to go through the intermediary of goats.
Few cows = few wives
No cows = not Maasai
Goats = important but not wife worthy (I think)
Chickens = not important
Oh my goodness, 15 cows for sure.
I think sick to stomach trauma feeling is radical change to life as we know it. Would one of your massai women have it if she were to discover she was going to be alone with her H for the rest of her life, the only one to deal with him?
Hey Gan - just realised you haven't posted for a little while....how are things going with you my friend??
xx
Hi Zel, Toots, All. Just getting back to my real life now. Returned from Tanzania last Monday and has been a super busy week at work. Here's the current situation:
1. Not a peep from H since we met up a few weeks ago.
2. I still want my H but he doesn't want me or so it seems.
3. I can and will live an interesting life no matter what happens, but (2) still applies.
4. We can file in a couple of weeks. I have no intention of doing so and I suspect H won't either (but I could be wrong).
5. Our M anniversary is in a couple of weeks. No celebrating there, but if I do want to send a letter that could be a good time.
As for me, here's a few random thoughts that have been kicking around in my head:
1. I'm not sure if I've really changed through this process. I do have some new ways of thinking about Rs (informed mostly by the work of Schnarch) and communication (Rosenberg). I've learned that I have a fierce flooding reaction when I hear things I don't want to hear, which interferes with my ability to live by the new perspectives I've gained above. I need to take responsibility for this and learn to put the reptile brain back in its cage.
2. I feel that I skipped the angry stage and that concerns me. Is it still to come? Have I been stuffing away my feelings away all this time?
3. It's been enlightening to read about some of the personal struggles people have had through this. From the beginning I never had any issues with believing I am good enough. Lately I've been wondering where I sit on the narcissist scale. The fact that I've been paying more attention to how I look when I go out probably hasn't helped! Man this whole thing is messing with my head.
(I think a trip to the IC is in order)
As for goals for the next little while:
1. I need to make more of an effort to build my social network. Having spent so much time overseas, I have friends in far away places (largely through Hs extra-curricular activities) but few here. As an extroverted introvert, I can easily pre-occupy myself with things that stimulate me during my alone time. But I want to feel more connected to others, particularly now that my major connection with another human has...well...become disconnected.
It took me a looooong time to get to angry. I had to truly believe STBX was doing what I saw him doing before I could get there. And even then I had to lose hope and faith that his choices were HIS and not the result of outside influences. (And I knew for a long time that he'd been cheating and even told ow he loved her). If you still want your H after all this then maybe you're just not there yet?
I've never been really clear on why he says he left. You seem like a delight.
I don't think you're a narcissist. Narcissists don't want to be connected by others; they want to be adored by them.
Welcome back, gan!
Hi Zel, Toots, All. Just getting back to my real life now. Returned from Tanzania last Monday and has been a super busy week at work. Here's the current situation:
1. Not a peep from H since we met up a few weeks ago.
2. I still want my H but he doesn't want me or so it seems.
Oh dear, mind reading again!
3. I can and will live an interesting life no matter what happens, but (2) still applies.
shouldnt that read I am living? There aren't many posters here with more adventure in their lives!
4. We can file in a couple of weeks. I have no intention of doing so and I suspect H won't either (but I could be wrong).
then you have the gift of time. Don't you?
5. Our M anniversary is in a couple of weeks. No celebrating there, but if I do want to send a letter that could be a good time.
I truly have no clue what you are saying!
As for me, here's a few random thoughts that have been kicking around in my head:
1. I'm not sure if I've really changed through this process. I do have some new ways of thinking about Rs (informed mostly by the work of Schnarch) and communication (Rosenberg). I've learned that I have a fierce flooding reaction when I hear things I don't want to hear, which interferes with my ability to live by the new perspectives I've gained above. I need to take responsibility for this and learn to put the reptile brain back in its cage.
Flooding is a physiological reaction which is beyond control. So, you have the choice of identifying the triggers and intervening first or soothing after. The attack itself is determined by your biochemistry which is very tough to control, it isn't in my book a question of responsibility more of management. So what can you do to manage this?
2. I feel that I skipped the angry stage and that concerns me. Is it still to come?
Who says there has to be an angry stage? I haven't had one either, it isn't in my genes! Like me you flood instead.
Have I been stuffing away my feelings away all this time?
Do you think you have?
3. It's been enlightening to read about some of the personal struggles people have had through this. From the beginning I never had any issues with believing I am good enough. Lately I've been wondering where I sit on the narcissist scale. The fact that I've been paying more attention to how I look when I go out probably hasn't helped! Man this whole thing is messing with my head.
Perhaps you are on the minus scale of narc, like me neurotic? Or perhaps you are a covert angel? Why label with such horrible descriptions.
(I think a trip to the IC is in order)
As for goals for the next little while:
1. I need to make more of an effort to build my social network. Having spent so much time overseas, I have friends in far away places (largely through Hs extra-curricular activities) but few here. As an extroverted introvert, I can easily pre-occupy myself with things that stimulate me during my alone time. But I want to feel more connected to others, particularly now that my major connection with another human has...well...become disconnected.
Liking the goals.
V
Hi Gan, How was Tanzania?
I know that flooding reaction well and its a major pain - something im trying to figure out because i can know all kinds of stuff about reactions and behaviours (and NVC) but its difficult to apply any of it when flooded. As an aside I love the way your acedemic nature has you referencing your sources.
Do you still want to send a letter then? what do you think it might say?
I know we only know you from what you post but I can't say you've ever come accross as even slightly narcissitic.
What on earth would make you think you're narcissistic?
To a certain extent, you can read those lists of 'qualities' and recognize them, but so many are pretty healthy and normal.
If we are truly reading your innermost thoughts, I sincerely doubt it!
The anger stage - probably because you are still feeling hope and compassion for your H. Anger requires feeling your values were infringed upon, injustice, all those things. Perhaps you are too kind or well adjusted to feel wronged in this?
Hugs, Gan.
From a distance it looks as though you and your H were compatible and the sparks stopped and he wanted more sparks in his life. If you truly want him, I cannot say that NC is your friend. He wanted a 'better relationship' with you but couldn't define it. I read this as you are tremendously important to him, but he doesn't know how or where to file you now. What I will say to you is going to sting perhaps, because my bestest friend (male) told me the same thing in Nov:
Your H has already divorced you and made the decision to work at accomplishing that a while ago. Emotionally.
This doesn't mean he doesn't have feelings for you. You loved each other for 15 years. You said he sounded like he was crying at the end of the phone call.
I say you not only have the gift of time, but the gift of a fresh start with him if it is what you want. If he is amenable to the idea of seeing you as a friend, I'd take him up on it, and enjoy each other, flirt, re-connect and re-attract, show him the sparks can be there.
If you can accept the idea your M is dead, and go at this with no expectations, I'd say that's your best shot.
I think this is a difficult one, and I'm in a similar position to Gan, with a largely NC sitch. In fact, I haven't seen my H since August and the last time we spoke by phone was Feb. In our sitch there has been an OP involved, so I went pretty dark.
I think the NC does help with detachment, and I feel my life is pretty peaceful now. Is it a good idea to 'pursue' friendship in hope of re-attracting your H? And being a bit flirty in the process? IDK.
For me, given the OP (and I don't know present status of that) I would feel pretty vulnerable. Gan, I imagine you may feel similar, not knowing if there may be an OP somewhere on the scene. Plus, didn't your H also say he didn't want to meet up or chat more often - even though he wanted to be 'friends'?
I agree that with childless sitches like ours, it is harder to 'remind' your S of how great you are, and of changes you may have made. But I'm not sure if 'friends in hope of some thing else' is the way to go. Particularly at this point in the sitch, where we are still somewhat raw, but definitely moving forward.
Just ramblings really. I would love the chance to show H 'gorgeous Toots' but don't know that I would want to put myself 'out there' pursuit-wise, to do it. self-protection versus trying to re-attract I guess....
Thanks, Maybell, V, Jim, Zel and Toots for your thoughts. I feel so lucky to have you around (virtually).
It's ok. I did a narcissist test online and I am only average. So I'll put that one to bed ;-) Just something about this whole situation makes me wonder if i’s me who is off my nut, you know?
Maybell Why did he say he left? He said he was unhappy. Wants more fun, more passion. Wants to date other people. The usual. The things I do own up to though: (1) I didn't validate his feelings enough - he interpreted this as me not listening; (2) I sometimes let work get the better of me and brought home work stress. We both let things slide in the ML department. In Scharnch language, we were "emotionally fused".
Vanilla First, your tone cracks me up. So delightful, yet to the point at the same time. Makes me smile. Is it mindreading if I base my assessment on words that come out of his mouth and his actions or rather non-actions (not making any move toward me in 10 months)?? Re flooding - I do ok with the self-soothing. I’ve read that women do tend to be able to settle themselves faster, and I’m inclined to agree. I’m less concerned about how it feels to me, and more concerned about how it is for those on the other side of it (i.e. H). So it’s the intervening first that I need to work on. What do you suggest? Yoga and meditation probably help…I’ve let those slide while I’ve been travelling but I am getting back on the bandwagon this week (did back to back classes yesterday + meditation this morning). I’m not sure if I’ve been stuffing away my feelings. I do think I have sometimes been parking them someplace with the intention of coming back to them when I know how this is going to play out…like sometimes I catch myself getting worked up over some particular line of thought and decide I’m just not gonna go there because it’s speculation or what not.
Jim Tanzania was amazing, mind-blowing and so fun to get out in the field. Crazy to think what I was doing just 10 days ago - feels like a world away. In terms of the letter - I guess I was mostly thinking of validating some things he said and let him know that I’m taking his lead when it comes to interaction (just as I feared, he now seems to be rationalising us not getting back together because we haven’t had any deep conversation in forever…because you know who is not initiating them).
Zelda I’m not sure if I’m feeling much hope these days. Compassion sure (I believe H true is/was unhappy) but not hope. H didn’t say he wanted to be friends, he said “he wants to have a better relationship with me”…but seems to want to do so without having more frequent interaction. I can’t reconcile those two things in my head. I don’t feel that I can pursue friendship as that seems to disregard his wish not to have more frequent contact.
((Toots)) It’s all I can say to you my friend. I don’t know what we are to do about our fellas!
Gan, can you add my Fella to your list with Toots please!
Feeling for ya Gan! Lots of warm fuzzies coming your way!
JB xxx
Jelly - thanks for stopping by. Just posted on your thread.
Been a busy couple of days with parents in town. Now it is their turn to head to the UK to visit my sis.
The weather has been a shocker here. Last week we had what would have been called a category 1 cyclone had it originated closer to the equator. Then there was a hail storm that caused several warehouses to collapse under half a metre of hail! Now they're predicting another deluge later in the week. Sheesh!
Trust that means good things are happening with the weather in everyone else's part of the world!
Oh boy, you know things are really average when my major update is about the weather!
At least its not average weather. Besides you cant go jetting off round the world every week
I can see what you're thinking with the letter but i suppose i question whether thats how he would read it (regardless of how well its written). I'd be relatively confident he knows how you feel, but if hes in self justification mode there is not much anyone can do to break through that unfortunately.
So important question - does your H now owe you a small herd of cows?
Jim, I think that's a large heard of cows.
I wish the rain would stop, I had a flood then almost snow the flood. sun would be nice
Jim - I think it's my dad he owes some cows to. I know what you are saying re letter. For all the talk about letters since the beginning of this debacle I've never sent one. I guess the idea was just to try something different. Not sure what I'll do...
Gg, thanks for stopping by. Haven't checked out your thread in a while. Will check in later today. More rain here, ugh!
So maybe your Dad should send an invoice instead
We had a couple of dry days.
I better go do some sort of an update.
So confession time. I know I’ve painted the picture of being pretty together but...
Right now I am fighting the urge to go out and pick up. I live in an area where there are a lot of night clubs and bars. It probably wouldn’t be so hard. I admit I’ve been out with work colleagues and had a few drinks. One by one each pealed off to head home to a partner or catch up with friends. None know I’ve come out of a 15 year relationship and going home…well...means going home alone.
Lately I’ve become infatuated with the guy who owns the coffee shop I go to every morning. Actually this is now the third “coffee guy” I’ve found myself a bit infatuated by (which is funny because H didn’t drink coffee). On various days this guy has complimented me on the dress I was wearing, my nail polish, my yoga tights…all brightly coloured at the time (which amuses me as I don’t usually wear bright colours…but have done so a bit post-BD in an effort to break the mould). Last weekend when it was raining he said there’s only one place to be on days like this…and I finished by saying at home in bed. Sheesh.
Tonight I find myself wishing that I would go out and find him there…
Hey Gan, already posted a reply but wanted to post on your thread too. I read this again to refresh myself, you haven't posted a lot lately so I wanted to make sure I was up on your sitch.
You mentioned feeling like a WAW that was too committed to leave. I can definitely relate. Shoot, my W and I probably didn't talk for about 3 years added up out of the last 5. We were just STUCK. No way to interact without going in the same destructive circle, so we just stuck it out and hoped the other person would change. Well, I was working with IC and I'm sure she was doing her best, but you know, it was pretty bad. Like many LBS's I guess I just never thought we'd D and that we had time to regroup and try again. Anyway, I really just want to acknowledge that while you were committed, I understand it was a painful and hard M for you as well. And I REALLY respect the fact that you stayed there through it all. Truly.
As for the comment about not getting to anger yet...yes, that is interesting. For most LBS's what I've seen is they stuff their feelings in the beginning, trying to be the perfect spouse to win their WAS back. Then when they feel that hasn't worked they get really mad, either because of that disappointed expectation of saving the M, or because they look back at all of the pain THEY endured during the M and feel like they were fools. They feel stupid to have put up with such a bad M, they feel taken advantage of, they feel foolish to have made such compromises and investments with the idea that at least they'd have commitment only to find that commitment wasn't as committed as they thought.
Again, I strongly admire the fact that you aren't tearing apart your ex for his failures, and that you're actually still primarily focused on your own growth and room to improve as a W.
I do think you should keep tuning in to your emotions, as it would surprise me if you didn't have a lot of anger in there somewhere. My understanding is that suffering leads to resentment, and I know you've suffered. You're the kind of person that could let go of that resentment, but you have to realize you're holding on to it first. Of course, I don't profess to know, maybe you have just grown so much so fast you have already forgiven him for being flawed and have let it go already...I'm no mind reader. But I like the fact that you're asking yourself that questions.
All in all I'm very impressed and hope you're having a great weekend!
Thanks Zues. As I mentioned on BW05s thread I'm moving our convo over here.
Have to confess that I have only quickly scanned your above posts but I jumped over to this thread after reading some stuff on JellyB's thread. This was was a big issue in our R too and I hope we may all learn something through talking about it.
A few of disclaimers:
1. I'm a woman with what I suspect is a normal sex drive (probably above normal based on what I read), but I was the "low desire spouse" in our relationship
2. I have a PhD (totally unrelated to the subject matter...but I get the pressures there and experienced my own little MLC just after finishing)
3. I'm far from saving my M...but I have learned a lot though this debacle
So....the thing I have come to understand through all of this is that men and women are different and no one benefits by making the other person feel like there is something wrong with them when they don't want sex.
Zues I hear you - my H evidently felt the same. We had some painful conversations where he told me he felt that way. At the time all I could do (like you BW) was say you shouldn't feel that way - I love you, I'm attracted to you, I'm not deliberately withholding from you, it's just that my body doesn't work like yours and I don't feel like it right now. I didn't validate his feelings and I acknowledge that now and feel very sad about it. But I was honest about my feelings and he didn't validate those either. In fact, H labelled me as the low desire spouse so much so that he couldn't see that - like him - I actually genuinely wanted more sex. We were totally stuck in this dynamic. His watching porn did not help (not that I was particularly against it, but that he evidently turned to it instead of me).
Here's what I want to convey - there is something not quite motivating enough about the message that women should "just do it" (tomorrow at lunch say). I just don't think it works that way. If it did, all I would be doing is letting you use my body. That doesn't make me feel so great. Would it make you feel great as the man knowing that was what I was doing? Or would you rather I actually be really into you when we ML? A lot of the sex books seem to push the "just do it" message. Like we should "just do it" and if we can't then there is something medically wrong with us. Well that idea doesn't make my juices flow either...
BW05 - if this is an area you want to work on then I recommend you check out the books by David Schnarch. He presents a different message - that there is a "high desire spouse" and "low desire spouse" on every issue in a relationship. The low desire spouse controls the outcome - be that having sex, having kids, etc. Like even now - the WAS is the low desire spouse - they are controlling the outcome, yes? The low desire partner has a choice - dig in their heals and commit to their way of things or they accept their partners way of things and learn not to feel resentment. Somehow by seeing this as the natural balance of things I feel more able to take on the sex issue as a matter of my own integrity. It doesn't evoke the usual "there is something wrong with me" mentality (cos that doesn't make me feel particularly sexy), rather "I can grow and deal with this" mentality. I only wish I had discovered these books before BD.
Zues - same for you. Check out Schnarch. Maybe there are other areas where you were the low-desire spouse and failed to move yourself forward in a way that made it easier for your wife to connect with you? Maybe that's why she couldn't have sex more frequently with you?
Thank you for the reply Gan. Let me first acknowledge that this is an extremely emotionally charged issue. This is an issue that played the primary role in the destruction of my family, perhaps yours, and certainly millions of other couples. Just reading your post evoked a strong reaction in me that compelled me to sit on it for a while, not because you were wrong, but because it flashed me back to how I felt during my M for years. Likewise, I recognize this may be a equally sensitive subject. I appreciate you replying and discussing this, but given how raw this is for me at least I'll try to step a little lightly.
I DO need to make a bigger point of understanding how the low desire spouse feels. I will admit that though I've thought about it, my feelings were so strong it was easy to just dismiss the outlook you described as "wrong" in the past because it was so awful to me. As a result, I failed to do my part to bridge the gap and see if there was a way through. As you mentioned, there are MANY things I could have done much better to get different results, and in no way am I pointing all the blame on my STBX, or on you in your R. I can't imagine how difficult it would be to be the low drive partner, to feel used, cheapened, disrespected, coerced, manipulated, abused, and even violated. No, I will admit. I didn't see past my own feelings in the R. They felt so powerful I just felt that my partner must be in the wrong.
I learned an interesting point of view about M...BOTH PARTNERS MUST MEET THE OTHER PERSON 100% OF THE WAY. The idea is that if both people want to meet 50% of the way there it will never work, because both people will view that 50% so differently and it won't be enough. Only when both give 100% can they actually bridge the gap.
Similarly, I feel that sex is a funny subject. It's not really a "Need" in the sense of food or water. But it's not really a "want" to the high desire spouse like a new car or a vacation to Hawaii.
For a high drive spouse to consider it a "need" is dangerous, as it can lead to entitlement, and all of the destructive behavior above, much of which I exhibited. Taken to the extreme, the idea that the low desire spouse should submit to the high desire spouse 100% of the time, any time he/she was turned on or horny...well, that wouldn't be possible, and the low desire spouse would quickly feel like a glorified blow up doll, emotionally trodden on, used, cheapened, and hurt beyond belief.
I also think that for a low desire spouse to NOT consider it a "need" is very dangerous as well. Just as I have admitted that I don't understand the other side of the coin, I feel that low desire spouses ******SEVERELY UNDERESTIMATE******* how much it IS a need to the high desire spouse. I would guess it's underestimated by a factor of 10. The LDS is not even in the right ballpark with the damage it causes.
So to me the question about "would you want sex if your partner felt you were simply letting me use their body" looks as alien as asking "would you want me to feed my hungry baby when I'm not in the mood and feel like I'm simply being a servant?"
The answer for me is "yes", because although I feel loved when my partner wants to meet my needs, I also feel loved when my partner CHOOSES to meet my needs even when they don't always feel like it. It says 'I love you' to put my needs in front of your mood. At least some of the time. It doesn't have to feel arousing or appealing, but it will keep the high desire spouse from feeling so awful they feel their only shot at happiness in life is to leave the M or seek fulfillment outside of it.
I'll back it off a bit and say again that the answer isn't that the LDS spouse becomes completely subservient, stuffs their own feelings perpetually, and becomes the one that feels traumatized all day. The point is that NEITHER spouse should feel that way, and both parties need to understand that no matter how strongly they feel their point of view on this issue is right, BOTH points of view are right, and somehow through love, communication, compromise, and both sacrificing more than they ever thought they could...maybe it's possible.
I don't have the answers. These are just my thoughts. I am sending you a big hug and sincerely thanking you for voicing your feelings respectfully. I feel there is a lot we could learn from each other and I am looking forward to becoming a better person from this discussion.
Vets, I'd love to hear from you. Particularly Starsky...I understand you've been through a love starved marriage. Could someone page Starsky?
So...where to pick up...?
Zues - I get you when you say you feel loved when your partner CHOOSES to meet your needs even when they don't always feel like it. On most issues I would agree, but sex (for me) is a bit different as it means (to me) putting my body out there in an exceptionally personal way. The idea of having sex when I don't want to invokes some pretty strong emotions in me (that relate to women's empowerment etc).
I think it was the book HTIYMWTAI that hit the message home to me that the high desire spouse feels totally rejected when the low desire spouse turns them down. I remember thinking Oh No! I was doing that and my H tried to tell me that. I feel dreadful about it. The things is, when he tried to tell me this I responded the only way I knew how at the time - by saying that he shouldn't take me not wanting sex at a particular time as being indicative of me not loving him or not being attracted to him. From my side it didn't work that way, it wasn't the message I was trying to send at all. I did however hear his message that he wanted more sex and so I started reading up on ways to may me more into it which prompted thoughts like - why can't I do this, there must be something wrong with me (a perspective that he reinforced by making me feel like it was my problem rather than our problem). Nothing kills your sex drive like feeling like that.
The reality was actually far from this.
As per my post before this one, you can see that I'm struggling with the lack of physical touch lately (it's up there with words of affirmation as an LL for me). So while I do desire sex, I have a lowER desire for sex than my H. In my next relationship I may be the highER desire spouse. It's a relative position...and viewing it as such brings a very different perspective to the issue for me, especially since there is a high/low desire position for everything in a relationship. For instance, my H was the lower-desire spouse when it came to kids. That infuriated me to no end. We had always talked about having kids...it was more a question of time. But we never took the step, because he wouldn't. By being able to relate my position on sex to his position on kids, it actually takes the particular issue out of it and I can see that it's more about people being able to find ways to meet their partner AND learn not to carry the resentment that could potentially go with that. So coming back to your point about your partner CHOOSING to meet your needs - I feel that is an option that is more available to me now, especially if I can see that my partner is also committed to working through the issues where they too are stuck and holding us both back. Does than make any sense?
Gan, hearing ya sista on this one! I'm in recovery, my usual pattern is to act out in this manner upon breakup. My rule at present is to be man free till Christmas. But I truly appreciate your feelings about coffee guy ( I have one of my own at present - what is it about them??? ) lol.
Gan, hearing ya sista on this one! I'm in recovery, my usual pattern is to act out in this manner upon breakup. My rule at present is to be man free till Christmas. But I truly appreciate your feelings about coffee guy ( I have one of my own at present - what is it about them??? ) lol.
Sorry wanting to ponder a little
I put my response on BWs thread. I do think that at any point after the initial lime ranch there will always be a mismatch of Iibido, but the gaps will change like a concertina.
Anyway my response
BW
Please attach to your feelings, recognise them even the awkward ones about H. Depending on the categorisation there are six primary states or feelings, sadnesst, trust, joy, surprise, anger and fear. If you google Plutchek there are eight add contempt and anticipation. plutchek model shows that other emotions are a mix of these.
My own personal philosophy is to think of this as a giant DJ mixing table with sliders up and down and on/off switches for each glider. All of us have a natural preset. Lets take anger as an example, assume we are at peace, just waking from rest, all the switches are off. Suddenly we feel angry as a memory arises, all the switches are off and anger comes in. It switches on at the preset level.
If the preset for a certain emotion (the slider is almost full up) is high, we flood with the emotion. Wait two minutes and it will slide to a lower level. Then we can consciously slide our slider controls: raise the level or lower it. We have no control over the preset., but we can manage the preset. This gives us a 'choice' in the level we feel of the emotion after the first two minutes. Some individuals have lower presets. They just may not feel at high levels bot positive or negative; others of us have high presets with swings or moods. We learn as adults to manage these.
Joy and Trust together give us love for example. love is a result of having joy and trust as emotional sliders high.
For each emotion there is a result. The result of anticipation joy and trust in a particular measure result in lust or sexual desire. That is what we mean by control over these. In my view sex is neither a need nor a want but a result, an action. By adding anticipation to our mix we can increase the result. The desire. Some individuals require touch to trigger anticipation, so once they begin to relax and flow into sex the lust responses kick in. Hence the 'just do it' attitude. Once they start its ok but until that point sex is a chore or a requirement for their R.
I felt it was important for me to understand body chemistry and states. If I looked further then I discovered that the electronics in my mixer board had bio chemical components so with the switch comes a chemical reaction in my body. Some bio chemicals and hormones, (for example adrenalin perhaps triggers anger etc) are in certain standard combinations or presets and result in standard responses, flight, fight or freeze body reactions. we can not control these, some refer to these as limbic or lizard reactions. So something in the environment triggers the on/off presets resulting in body State (feelings) followed by reactions.
Your feelings are yours, please embrace them.
Detach from your spouses actions not your own feelings.
For those who struggle, who tell themselves, I have low desire then know that is likely a result of low anticipation. increase the thoughts of those aspects of sex that are enjoyed (even if this is pleasure of your spouse) this will increase the anticipation. Then just do it, the body needs sex, it keeps one young, puts a spring in the step.
I used to confuse that my H did not want sex with low desire. It wasn't or isn't low desire , my H is using sex or lack of it as control. H says 'no' then he feels he has the control and power. Now H wanted sex but V has said 'no way, not if you are cahasing POW'. I don't have low desire for sex, just no desire for H.
This is the way I understand., hope it helps you as a starter.
V
Just musing........
(JB, got these from the DBT site which I found whilst looking for abuse help. There is a free learning module on there also bits from Al Turtle too. I know you love these corners of interesting bits n bobs)
Whilst cleaning. Hard to post with marigolds.
V
So V - do I take from your post above that you were the high(er)-desire spouse?
I think I was the higher in the beginning. Then that flipped due to being put down so much as stress increased desire decreased.
thus when I asked I to like nil got told no. Thus the circle of resentments and hurts started.
The sliding scale makes a huge lots of sense, to me. I tryed the just do it and was rejected to the spiral continued. Yes as was stated same drama same issues just over and over and over and over bigger and bigger
"I remember thinking Oh No! I was doing that and my H tried to tell me that. I feel dreadful about it. The things is, when he tried to tell me this I responded the only way I knew how at the time - by saying that he shouldn't take me not wanting sex at a particular time as being indicative of me not loving him or not being attracted to him"
Laughing WITH you on this one. Man, I've done the same thing in so many ways. Like my intent changes anything. 'Geez honey, I never meant for you to feel like you're being stabbed in the eyes with red hot needles. OK, phew, glad we had this talk and we're all better now'...;)
"I did however hear his message that he wanted more sex"
Natural reaction. I'm sure you've learned a lot since then, but it's not just about more sex. It's about finding ways to meet the emotional needs of your partner that are also filled during sex. That can take a LOT of pressure off the sex life as well, and lay a good ground work for it.
For example, when I was talking about ways to tactfully reject an advance, the idea was that although a physical need couldn't be satisfied, maybe an emotional need COULD. Understanding. Validation. Then potentially some actions to meet some of those needs in other ways to show that it was important. And yes, at some point sex would be involved as well.
"so I started reading up on ways to may me more into it which prompted thoughts like - why can't I do this, there must be something wrong with me (a perspective that he reinforced by making me feel like it was my problem rather than our problem). Nothing kills your sex drive like feeling like that."
Ug. Yes. Haven't gone through it but my WAW talked to me about feeling like the problem all of the time. I can see how I contributed to that and how counterproductive that would be. It's like how criticizing isn't a good way to try to steer your partner's behavior. I can see I did many things to make it harder for my W to be available to me.
"By being able to relate my position on sex to his position on kids, it actually takes the particular issue out of it and I can see that it's more about people being able to find ways to meet their partner AND learn not to carry the resentment that could potentially go with that."
ABSOLUTELY. I AM CONVINCED THIS IS THE ROAD TO EFFECTIVE COMMUNICATION. For example, the whole idea of the 5LL's is to relate your needs with their needs. "They want 'words of affection'? That's stupid, they shouldn't need that. I don't! But I'm dying because my partner won't realize that if they would just spend a little time with me I'd go from wanting to kill myself every day to being the happiest person in the world! OH WAIT...maybe they feel that way about words of affection!?!" And with that is the beginning of empathy, understanding, and compassion.
And I actually think of children as a close analogy. Most needs can be met some other way. But if a woman (or man) really wanted children, it was what they envisioned in their life to make them fulfilled...and their partner veto'd that for reasons that were anything less than earth shattering (meh, I don't need kids, I like having it quiet around here...
) that would be devastating.
I know HDS/LDS can be male or female, but I do believe men are wired for sex like women are wired for children. It isn't just a desire. It's almost like a life purpose. To be denied that purpose is to suffer. Not so much about one encounter, but overall it is paramount.
In fact, I used to feel a lack of sympathy for woman with WAH's because I would think to myself "Hmmm, I bet the last 2-3 years their H has been sexually starved and they have rationalized why it's ok, but rather than just giving him a good jump they still insist on trying to rebuild the M the way they feel they'd like it to be rebuilt". OK, those aren't my beliefs, just the thoughts that would stem from resentment coming from a frustrating point myself.
But I have also come a long ways and see how difficult both sides have it hear. The fact is that if I have the delusion that M is about me never being denied sex again than I'm going to be very disappointed which will lead to me making my partner feel consistently insufficient, judged, critiqued, and unappreciated. All while then trying to coerce her to by physical and vulnerable. Bah!
"So coming back to your point about your partner CHOOSING to meet your needs - I feel that is an option that is more available to me now, especially if I can see that my partner is also committed to working through the issues where they too are stuck and holding us both back. Does than make any sense?"
100%. The fact is that the pain I suffered from our sex starved M made me more sensitive. Now when my children ask me every time I see them if we can go swimming, I don't think "yeah, yeah, those kids, always wanting to go swimming, well that's inconvenient and I'm not really into it, we'll do it someday I'm sure, they need to realize they won't get everything they want, that's not how life works"
Instead I think "wow, what if they felt about this the way I felt about sex? oh my gosh, this is obviously really important to them. I want them to be fulfilled. What's so wrong with swimming? We can't go every day, or every time they ask, but I can make them feel heard, validated, I can find other ways to show them I love them and feel emotionally fulfilled, and then let me figure out when I can get them to a pool!"
Hm, I guess I agreed with this point already with the 5LLs reference, but I'll leave it. It truly is important.
Similarly I do think "just do it" is a CRITICAL tool for a healthy M. It should be used. Often. Repeatedly. And I'm glad this has helped you to see that as a viable option. ***SOME*** of the time.
For it should not be the ONLY choice. There should also be ways (as I mentioned) to gracefully decline. There should be ways to meet his emotional needs in different forms. Etc, etc.
And this applies to the HDS as well. They too should have tools to handle their own needs to a degree, to handle times of drought, and to learn how to build a M that will allow the LDS to feel minimal resistance vs. extreme repulsion to the idea of ML.
I could go on, but this is a good break point. Gan, honestly you've given me hope. I'll confess that when I first read your "I don't believe in 'just do it'" it was difficult. In fact, I had the idea in the back of my mind that if I could just find a 'JDI' woman vs. a non-JDI woman I might be ok. The fact is it's been such a difficult subject for me that I haven't been able to always see past the trauma I had felt. But this has opened my eyes to how non-black/white this is. I am no longer interested in a JDI woman. I am interested in a woman that is willing to work as a team to understand each others needs, validate them, and make it a priority to build a structure that will allow us to care for each other as much as possible. Sometimes JDI will come in to play for her. Sometimes STFU will come in to play for me
Thank you for talking about this, you give me HOPE for my future R. Time to go play some pool and GAL!
Gan
Yes higher libidinous in all of my Rs, a grand total of four!
In my first marriage (H1 died young) we had naughties almost every day we were together. With H2 and F I would say 3-4 times a week. With this H no real pattern as H3 is very controlling and now with POWs it's too risky.
High drive, until now it had never occurred to me. But it is something I really miss in my life.
V
Hi gan! Jumping in here on an earlier post, I too had a little crush on a coffee shop guy a few months back and had mini fantasies about returning there to chat with him or maybe running into him around town by chance.
It's funny because a bartender wouldn't really be an appealing target because you know they get hit on a lot, but somehow a coffee shop person is not such a "slutty" prospect. hahaha! I think they probably get a lot of action too, I've never worked at a coffee place so I don't know...
No harm in a little flirting and harmless fantasy I say!
Hope you are doing well. Hugs!
Hilarious LisaB...^^^^^^^^I wish I an been so descriptive...that had me on the floor laughing!! You made my day with that one. I won't be looking at my coffee guy in same way ever again. LOL
HAHA JellyB! You know what I mean though right? Everyone knows bartenders get a lot of action, but I bet those baristas do too!
I've known a lot of Barista's in my time my younger sister and best friend (roasts is his own coffee) have been in hospitality since we were in our early 20's, Im now 43).
The ones I have known, straight, gay, bi, and transgender - I have to say, saucy wee devils they are!!!!
haha! Good to know!
You are shattering my fantasies y'all. Stop!
I think we are quietly encouraging you Gan....lol
Dang, Jelly. I just put nude nail polish on. Wait...did I just say nude (giggles).
(Zues - I have more to say to you...am just in recovery mode after a 25km hike + yoga GAL day today...stay tuned).
Gan, wow a 25k hike AND yoga is impressive. Sounds like a great GAL day!
Now I need a lie down even thinking about a 25km hike!
Agreed. I'm not up to a 25km. I'm working on getting off the couch some days.
Oh, below is an excerpt from a post on JB's thread. It was just something that helped explain the feelings a bit better. The idea was that rejecting sex consistently and basically telling me "sex isn't all a M is about, it's something to do when we both feel like it to enjoy together, you wouldn't want me to go through the motions, let's work on our R and I'm sure we'll have sex someday"...well, that was her half of what ended the M. I'm working on my half. Thanks Gan.
"I feel like my desires are so strong I am ashamed of them...and because of that I feel like I am damaged goods that no woman would want...
I don't want to be with every woman I see. What I really want is to be with one woman who can understand how much desire is in my heart day to day, and who can still accept me regardless. And that she would show me that by talking about it with me, acknowledging it, and still making it a priority to take care of my needs (in ways that were agreeable to her).
The point is it really isn't about how much sex, or how often. What I yearn for is someone to understand the depths of my desire, and still love me. In fact, I often long for someone that will actually appreciate the fact that I will pledge eternal loyalty, monogamy, and devotion to just her. Think about it...all day long, hundreds of times a day, I have overwhelming desire...and I let it go, stuff it, put it away, deny it...all with the hopes that I can share that with my partner and turn to only her. And that in return I will do everything I can to understand her needs, accept her irregularities (if I'm irregular), and reciprocate to the best of my ability."
Zues
Sounds like you are regularly irregular!
It's the compulsive element that is concerning, although I confess to a few fantasies about Liam.......
Liam.........
Liam.........
Sadly Liam doesn't know about V. Crazy stalking V.
Gan, thank you for loving concern my dearest gan.
V
Coffee time! This morning I look "elegant"!
OK
Zues, enough frivolity with my coffee guy, back to you. Before you read on, know that I intend this as a friendly discussion and do not mean to point the finger…just sharing a little of my journey and musings on the topic which is FAR from black and white -
I'll confess that when I first read your "I don't believe in 'just do it'" it was difficult. In fact, I had the idea in the back of my mind that if I could just find a 'JDI' woman vs. a non-JDI woman I might be ok
What I want you and V (and all highER-desire spouses out there) to understand is that telling the lowER-desire spouse to “just do it” is not the (entire) solution. “Just doing it” when one does not want to is the fast track to resentment and most likely ordinary sex. It’s only through a lot of self-reflection and reading (Schnarch) that I feel that this is something I can now take this on, that is, doing it and not feeling resentment. That’s an internal journey that no-one except ourselves can decide to go on.
My H used to express his frustration at the fact that “sex always happened on my terms". That made sense to me at the time because it meant we were both consenting. My light bulb moment didn’t happen til after BD when I read the books by Schnarch (recommended to me by my IC) in which he explains how the lowER desire partner controls sex. That seems counterintuitive - we usually think it is the HDS who wants sex so they must control it. I certainly felt like my H controlled it. But actually the reverse is true. The lowER desire partner controls sex…and quite frankly we don’t want all that responsibility!
As I said previously, there is a lowER/highER desire spouse on most issues in a marriage. It’s a position one takes on an issue, not a personality or biological trait. When you are the LDS it's your responsibility to confront the issue - stay your course (and be ok with it) or be willing to accept your partners perspective (and loose the resentment).
^^^ is profoundly more empowering than the message “just do it” or "go get checked out because there may be something wrong with you medically".
Natural reaction. I'm sure you've learned a lot since then, but it's not just about more sex. It's about finding ways to meet the emotional needs of your partner that are also filled during sex. That can take a LOT of pressure off the sex life as well, and lay a good ground work for it.
Yes, I have some definite regrets here…and the jury is out on whether my H communicated those needs to me and I didn’t listen/hear or if he didn’t communicate them. Probably a mix. Looking back I know there were some things I could have done that would have made a difference…and I foolishly didn’t. I will always regret that.
OK, those aren't my beliefs, just the thoughts that would stem from resentment coming from a frustrating point myself.
I won’t repeat what came before this ;-) But that ^^^ was your responsibility to work through. You let the resentment build and as such you developed ideas about women that you (probably?) projected back at your wife. I suspect this in turn might have made it harder for her to be intimate with you - because you projected that she was someone who didn’t want sex. If that’s how someone sees you, well, that’s sorta what you become.
There’s a flip side too: When the highER desire spouse speaks of their need for sex, there is a tendency for the lowER desire spouse to (wrongly) think that their partner is over-sexed. Many HDS turn to porn to compensate (you did, my H did too)…right or wrong it fulfils the prophecy.
It’s a stalemate. Everyone feels bad. Game over.
Finally, you’ve used a few examples - like how it would be like not feeding the dog just because don’t feel like it, or depriving kids of going swimming when you know it’s really important to them. I understand you were using these to illustrate just how important the issue is to you. And I think I am coming to understand this in a way I didn’t before. The difference between these examples and sex is the fact that the latter involves me putting my body out there in a very, very personal way. There’s a whole lot more that goes along with that. BTW I’m one of the 9% of women who is generally happy with my body and if the numbers are to be believed then I have an easier time….er…at the end…than 75% of women. Knowing all the faffing that goes around in my head on this topic, I can’t imagine just how hard sex would be for women who weren’t quite so blessed.
So - question for you, Zues. What would it take for you to believe that things could be different in this department between you and your wife? You are clearly left very hurt (as is my H).
Gan: "Before you read on, know that I intend this as a friendly discussion and do not mean to point the finger"
Z: I braced myself after reading this opening. I'm definitely sensitive about this subject as I've historically felt ashamed of my desires, have turned to porn and fantasy to medicate, have behaved destructively to try to control my partner, and have watched that lead to the destruction of my M. Yet I didn't feel judged or attacked by your post, and for that I felt it was important to offer a sincere THANK YOU before going further. In fact, it felt a lot like compassion and understanding, those are powerful healing forces.
Gan: "There’s a flip side too: When the highER desire spouse speaks of their need for sex, there is a tendency for the lowER desire spouse to (wrongly) think that their partner is over-sexed. Many HDS turn to porn to compensate (you did, my H did too)…right or wrong it fulfils the prophecy.
It’s a stalemate. Everyone feels bad. Game over."
Z: Yes. Stalemate describes the last chapters of my M. And the feeling of my needs or desires being judged was devastating to me. Just as I mentioned how sensitive this is, it was very hard to open up about who I am so I learned I was hideous and I needed to put my mask back on, pretend to be the person she wanted me to be, and take care of my own needs...
I can see the other side as well, being treated like there's something wrong with you for not being higher geared, or not being able to satisfy your man, being insufficient, not being able to measure up with a fantasy world, and being told to go to the doctor for help, etc. Truly heartbreaking to see how both people can be so hurt by the different sides of the coin.
Gan: "Finally, you’ve used a few examples - like how it would be like not feeding the dog just because don’t feel like it, or depriving kids of going swimming when you know it’s really important to them. I understand you were using these to illustrate just how important the issue is to you. And I think I am coming to understand this in a way I didn’t before. The difference between these examples and sex is the fact that the latter involves me putting my body out there in a very, very personal way. There’s a whole lot more that goes along with that."
Z: Agreed. Just don't underestimate how hard it is for a guy that struggles with sharing his emotions, fear of rejection and abandonment, and shame about his desires, to then open up to his partner and talk about what's in his heart. It's strangely parallel.
What my W didn't know was that I didn't just feel rejected when she rejected me. It was perpetual.
Every time I saw a TV commercial that used a sexy woman, I was hurt that she didn't understand there's a reason for all of those commercials, it's because it's THAT important to men that it captures our attention. Walking through the mall and seeing a Victoria Secret sign hurt because it reminded me that there were other women that understood the desire in their men and took pride and joy in satisfying it. Basically, every single time I felt desire in my heart, I felt rejected again knowing I was alone with it, that I couldn't turn to the only person in the world I was given to turn to. I don't know if those feelings washed over me dozens or hundreds of times a day, but it was a downer. So each real rejection lead to many, many rejection 'echoes'.
But the flip side is that when we ML, when she tried things that I wanted to try, or she did things to surprise me and make me feel understood and special...I felt LOVE echoes like you wouldn't believe! Each of the above stimuli, well, I'd think to myself "I'm so lucky I have a woman at home that loves me, understands me, and is willing to celebrate who I am". So it's not a one way street, and the same thing that turns the heart to ice can turn it into a roaring furnace.
gan: "So - question for you, Zues. What would it take for you to believe that things could be different in this department between you and your wife? You are clearly left very hurt (as is my H)."
Separate response for this question. It is REALLY tough. So let me explain why this is so hard for me to answer. I'm not sure that my answer will be 'right'. I've used porn to varying degrees for many years. I don't know how differently I'll feel once it's an ancient memory. It could be that I'm 90% of the way to where I'll be when I'm truly purged, and it's a year or two down the road. It might be that I'm only 50% of the way there and my brain is still taking crazy circuits because of so much programming imagery. This is new to look at for me, it was part of my life for so long I never questioned that my thoughts and desires weren't just "who I was". And I think there's a lot of truth in that because there's a reason I was drawn in at the beginning, it is a *****POWERFUL***** force. But I'm a little hesitant about making declarations of how I will feel in the future.
But if I had to answer what it would take for me to believe it could be different the way I feel NOW?
My first reaction to hearing those words was to tighten up. I've tried to open myself up, beg, plead, explain, reason, threaten, everything- to try to be understood by my STBX. In my brain I know that people can learn and change, but my heart is pretty closed. This was the case before BD as well, and what lead to us not talking. It got to the place where there was just no point.
It would be like if you were selling your car and wanted $5,000, so you went to a dealership to see if they'd buy it from you. They nod, take you very seriously, fill out a bunch of paperwork, keep you there all afternoon, and then finally come back and offer you $750. You'd be like "that's crazy!" If they started negotiating, and then offered you $800, and started talking about nonsensical factors you'd have to just walk away at some point because you'd just realize that although you don't know how they stay in business, or where they're coming from, you know enough to realize you're SO far apart you're not in any danger of ever making a deal.
But then (and this analogy is breaking down) you realized you loved this dealership, it was so convenient, and you like their commercials, and they call you back and apologize that their last offer didn't work, and so they call you back in and promise they'll be in the right ball park this time...only to repeat the process.
I'm not saying this is a unique feeling to this situation, it's probably one we can ALL relate to in various ways.
But basically I'm at the point where I have no reason to ever believe that my STBX will ever understand how far apart we truly are. And I am sick to the core of begging, pleading, hoping, praying, and trying everything I can to explain myself, defend myself, or get it through to her. I just realize that I've got better things to do with my life than repeat that for ever. I wasn't a man that was willing to leave my M over it, but only because I was resigned to a miserable lifelong M.
So that's what I'd be trying to overcome.
That said, it's not one sided. I mourn for our M as much as anyone. In fact, if I was willing to be in a lifelong miserable M out of commitment, I'd be pretty interested in hearing any proposed solutions to our stalemate. So if she were to approach me and give me a 'legitimate offer', I think I'd still be willing to do business.
If she told me she'd recognized her part of the destruction of the M, how she realized she couldn't allow herself to see my point of view because of how threatened it made her feel, or how that would require her to do things she wasn't comfortable with, or whatever. If she said that she wasn't pretending it would be easy or she'd be a porn star, but that she recognized that it would be EQUALLY difficult for me to compromise and partner. And that she realizes that my needs aren't my problem that I need to fix, but a part of me that would be part of our M that we need to work together to manage. And that she loved me, and had faith that we could grow to do that for each other, and live a long, mostly happy, and at times freaky kinky life together...and then she was ready to back that up by showing me a side of herself that she hadn't shown me before...
Well, I don't think I could resist that!
Particularly because I KNOW there are no perfect woman and wouldn't want one. I KNOW there are no perfect M's. It's not like my next W will make all of my dreams come true. And I ALSO KNOW THAT I HAVE SOME ISSUES ON THIS TOPIC. And I'm NOT stupid enough to walk away from an offer like that above because I'd rather chase a fantasy.
And as I said in my last post, it wouldn't take long for her to win my heart back. Sex and lack of it has SUPER POWERFUL impacts on how I feel with her. In some senses I'm very easy, it's almost like I have one button that needs to be pushed now and then and I'll run forever and be a perfect robot husband. That's why it was so strange to me that we couldn't arrange that.
Anyway, different sitch. Different because she was a WAW, you are not. Different because I'm trying to stand for my M and heal as a person, he is not and is still medicating and rationalizing. Different because you are also trying to stand/heal, my WAW is not.
When I think about how hard it was for me to answer the above question with me WANTING to stand by my M, it makes me wonder how M's are ever saved. But I've learned not to try to be so darn smart and just trust that when it comes to the heart, and what's possible between a man and a woman, I need to STFU and admit I wouldn't be here if I knew how this stuff worked.
Gan, thanks for your time, and know that I'm touched you're willing to have this conversation and explore this so deeply. Honestly, if your H could see you doing this he might be pretty inspired. I hope for your sake he doesn't turn out to be a fool...
Gan
I am not saying " just do it" on its own. Of course not.
What I am saying is this, part of wanting to have sex and ML is anticipating. The sexiest organ in the human body is the brain. From there all the triggers for hormones flow. Sometimes just doing it gets the sexy going!
So I know that I need to do a number of things to get myself and my body ready to feel sexy,. Sometimes, yes, it is just do it. But it can take a little planning or self seduction.
1. Masturbate regularly. learn to please yourself. Buy some jelly and go for it. Not just in an R, during the dry spells too. This is for all your life. At nearly 61 I love sex as much now as I always did. I miss it too. H and I had some great naughty nooky.
2. Find your sexy triggers, underwear, no underwear, bathing, massage, cheeeese, makeup, meal. Find them all, note them down. kiss and snog lots too.
3. Like all behaviour changes, understand it and study it.
4. Think positively about sex, if you see it as a chore it will be, call it something good, a pet name it's easier to discuss
5. Learn to masturbate your man, give bj it can be a quickie like this
6. Watch him, look in his eyes, at his bum, left nostril, curly hair on nape. The thing that got to you when you first met.
7. Let him do the work, let him know what pleases you and lie back and think of England sometimes
8. Prepare your mind and body earlier in the day
9. smile, it doesn't have to be as in the movies, it can be sweaty, awkward and downright hilarious
So do you know what pleases you, (not asking for details here) but do you know your triggers?
What got you going in the beginning of your R. Do you mark it in your diary or journal? What opens up your thoughts to sex or ML or naughty nookie? Do you share this with your partner?
Like DB you have control over your own sexuality and are responsible for it higher or lower than your partner matters not. Let's hope during your life you cross roles sometimes.
V
Oh and by the way, I know I am oversexed sometimes. That needs managing too.
V
V, I can check off 1 thru 9...and yet the dynamic still played out. And that's why it bothers me so.
In fact, through much of my reading I actually can't relate to the low-desire partners position. I enjoy (and miss) sex and physical touch is up there as one of my LLs (though non-sexual contact was probably > than sexual contact). Knowing that this was an issue in our R I have tried to confront myself and grow in this particular area - talked to my IC, read books (SSM, Schnarch stuff, Mating in Captivity by Esther Perel - who supports your point on anticipation BTW). Heck, I even purposely went to the red light district and saw a couples live sex peep show when I was in Amsterdam just to challenge my views on sex. I remember thinking no big deal, done that. I will say that I probably relied too much on H making me feel sexy rather than taking this on my self - something which I have also been trying to address in his absence (a la #2 on your list above).
In the end H didn't initiate, it was all me...yet in our R I was still the lowER desire spouse. I suspect he didn't initiate because over time it wasn't worth him risking the rejection. So all I could do was initiate...which fulfilled the prophecy that I controlled sex. Downward spiral.
Zues, thanks for your replies and sorry for the harsh start up
Thank you also for acknowledging my efforts to be compassionate. Actually I think this is the reason why I haven't experienced anger at my H. I feel so sad for the times he felt hurt in our M. Of course he may never know this as we never really see each other or talk in any depth about our R...
^Maybe you should send the letter and tell him - if it would make you feel better to share this? Idk if sending a letter at this point is technically pursuing, given where you are in your NC? Like you said, it is something different.
Gan,
I'm of the opinion of not leaving things unsaid. I've left things unsaid and not had the opportunity to rectify it. Regret is a bitter pill to swallow.
The way I see it (and this may sound harsh, it's not intended, i'm running on about three hours of sleep) you have three choices:
1. You can write the letter to him and send it. What happens will happen.
2. You can write the letter and not send it as a way of forgiving yourself and getting it off your chest.
3. You can not write the letter and wonder what if.
I mean, imo, the worst thing he can do is continue to do what he's doing, which is receive the letter and not talk to you.
Is there any harm in doing it?
Not sure about your current sitch Gan, but by DB coach thought an apology letter was a good way for me at validate all of my H's concerns in writing and express regret and ask for forgiveness. I know for a fact that my H has read it multiple times. Part of the reason I did this was that when concerns were first addressed, I probably tried to rationalize my behavior too much instead of just validate.
Also, it really was also for me and made me feel better.
If you have DB coach, you might want to run by them. The only thing see really said was to make sure I bullet pointed each of my H's concerns and state at the end that it was not necessary to respond. Takes that pressure off of them. My H responded first thing in am. Apparently, there is also a LRT letter.
Hi Gan,
when/where are you jetting off next?
two things i want to jump in on if you dont mind?
first, i found that a really interesting discussion you had with Zeus. I can recognise some of the dynamic through my M. In my case i was the HDS (post kids) but for me it was the lack of desire on my XW's part that really hurt, so just doing it wouldnt actually have helped (in truth she occassionally tried the just do it approach and thats pretty unsatisfying all round)
where this got to in our case was that the difference in desire became so central to everything. If i went for more ordinary contact such as a hug or a kiss, my XW immediately felt she had to make clear it wasnt going any futher which just compounded the rejection. Its really not much fun when a 'I've just got in from work' hug is met with some variant of the 'I've got a headache' response. If i tried to talk to her about it then i handled it badly and ended up feeling guilty for 'pressuring' her.
If i tried anything to try and make her feel sexy then (i think) she just saw this as me trying to manipulate her - which i guess i was but at some levels the difference between manipulation and romantic geture is purely one of personal interpretation.
for me the end result was then not to initiate anything because it would be met with rejection and ruin both of our moods
this all meant
everything to do with our sex life was then determined by her as the LDS. and I suspect that she really felt the pressure of that which surpressed her desire for me even more.
Net result = increasing resentment on both sides
The second thing is about this letter which i know we've discussed a couple of times. I'm not going to say dont send one as given the lack of contact I dont see it doing any harm to your situation (depending on what it says).
what i will say is that from my purely external perspective to your situation there is a timing thing and i think that timing is when you are truly ready to move on and can send it without any expectation of a reaction or response of any kind.
I say this because only a couple of months ago you told him how you feel - he knows you want more and he knows you dont want to D (you chased him down the street if i remember
). so he will interpret it how he chooses to and rationalising and explaining may run the risk of invalidating his feelings
If you can send something that you're happy acts as almost a goodbye letter which explains how you feel and properly acknowledges how he feels then it might be worth it, but it needs to be (purely in my opinion) about closure for you rather than because you expect it to influence him.
Following Calibri's advice though - it might be worth writing something and then sitting on it for at least two weeks (whats an extra two weeks) to see how you feel about it.
Hope your doing well
Jim
No one can make another feel sexy. They do that for themselves, each one of us is responsible for our own 'sexy'.
If WW wasn't feeling it, then it was her own responsibility to manage it, discuss it and resolve it. Just as much as it is yours to provide an environment for change for you. Truly it's less about rejecting you and more about WW internal state.
V
So much community on the boards at the moment. It's been a busy week so I've not had much time to respond, trying to keep track of other people's stuff tho. Will come back to the above when I have a bit more time. For now, thanks, Zues, Calibri, Zelda, Jim and V for dropping by.
So...anniversary was yesterday. Started the day with a yoga workshop (breaking down triangle poses). Quick dash to IKEA after that as it's getting cooler here and you know who took the winter duvet when he left.
I decided not to send a letter, mostly - Jim - because I didn't think I could write it as a goodbye letter. Not yet anyway (will I ever be done?) I did decide to send a text just acknowledging the day and saying thanks for the times we shared together. Then off I went to an evening out with a Meetup group for "international ladies". Met some nice ladies, one of whom is American, just moved here from South Africa after her 10 year R and is starting over. Hope to catch up with her again soon.
Much to my surprise H replied to my message later in the evening: "Thank you Gan. Good to hear from you. Hope you're also doing well."
Now I'm off on a hike with another Meetup group and regular Sunday yoga this afternoon. Happy with my GAL score this week, especially as there were a couple of dinners with friends thrown in during the week as well).
Jim - off to Uganda next Saturday. That will probably be it with the travel for a little while at least.
Been grabbling with some ISTJ weaknesses the past couple of days. Today I had a bit of an exchange with a colleague who concluded that I have a tendency of taking things too personally. And then at the Meetup events over the weekend, I found myself intrigued by how open others were to sharing their story with complete strangers. Like the lady I met who is just out of a 10 year marriage. I'd been talking to these other ladies most of the night (hadn't said a thing about my sitch), then she came over and within minutes she had revealed her story. How this was the first time she had lived alone. How she missed the company and physical contact. How she felt like she didn't know what she liked to do by herself anymore. I was just nodding along and thinking u-huh, u-huh until I finally let out my story. It was amazing to me. I really didn't realise how much of a challenge I find it to open up about my thoughts and feelings to other people. Naturally I wound up musing over the role that my personality played in my M breakdown.
So I confess...H's text reply has put me in a bit of a spin. Why the heck did he add "Good to hear from you"? I know, I know, no mind reading. Still, it seems a bit odd given our last contact...which has left me checking the mailbox in anticipation of D papers.
Hi G
I know in my case before I had counselling for both BD and for my depression I internalised *everything*. Took things and spun them in my head from every angle, worked out possible meanings good and bad and.....
..drove myself nuts.
In some ways Im probably a bit oversharing at times now but its so much less weight to carry around and I remember the days feeling like I was at the bottom of a well with the top being nailed shut and have no desire to go back there.
Not saying you have depression of course in my case that was the driver there but the internalising I can certainly relate to. You've seen my posts over the past 9 / 10 months and its only recently Ive been able to move away from digging and digging into w's communications, coincidently when my mood lightened as well. It's very difficult to resist I know especially when unexpected and I still catch myself doing it!
Keep going G you're doing so well, and congrats on the Gal and travel!
Cheers
Thanks, Edz. Your journey and patience with everything has been so inspiring actually. I always had visions of you just plugging away, mulling over "the thing" yes, but always ever so slowly heading toward your goals. Observing your humour was a turning point for me. Well more accurately your's, Jim's, and that stinking mooooose....were a turning point for me.
One of the things that's been really interesting to me is realising how introverted I am. I'm not the classic "prefers to stay at home and read a book" introvert so didn't identify with that classic example. Actually, I'm pretty outgoing and enjoy bouncing around ideas with other people rather than being left to my own devices. But I'm not comfortable being the centre of attention (at least when the focus is me personally; I'm totally fine speaking in front of people on an area of my expertise). I prefer to get to know people over a coffee with groovy music in the background, rather than out at a big party with loud music in the foreground (concerts are another matter). This time alone has definitely helped me see my introverted tendencies in a new light. I realise I have a rich inner world going on upstairs. It probably explains why I was content to just dabble away on my computer or whatever, all the while H looked on and figured whatever I was up to wasn't much fun. Actually ambivert is probably the best term for me (discovered that one recently and I like it).
But...I think I need to make a bit more effort to open up about things, especially as I meet new people through my GAL endeavours.
Sounds like you're doing a grand job to me Gan, keep going and remember if you can take a detatched look at yourself without being defensive on other peoples viewpoints then Ambivert (cool btw!) or introvert thats cool. In my case I did that and my thoughts were "wait, what, thats me now...oh! Some assembly required - possibly a little light demolition!"
Ah "Thing", still can't say what it was, I made a concious decision to not pry into w's dealings and nothing else came up from those channels so it seemed to just stop once she started to come back towards the idea of reconciling. Will it resurface and be a (caps) "THING" or not? Don't know, just decided to work on me, what I can in the m as w comes closer and relationship with s and leave "things" I cant do much about or that arent immediately apparent alone for now.
We shall, as they say, see!
Cheers Gan, keep on keeping on
where this got to in our case was that the difference in desire became so central to everything. If i went for more ordinary contact such as a hug or a kiss, my XW immediately felt she had to make clear it wasnt going any futher which just compounded the rejection. Its really not much fun when a 'I've just got in from work' hug is met with some variant of the 'I've got a headache' response. If i tried to talk to her about it then i handled it badly and ended up feeling guilty for 'pressuring' her.
, meant to get back to you about this. I'm ashamed to say that this played out a little in our R as well (not the "just home from work" hug, but other more ordinary contact true). If your W was anything like me, then part of this might actually have been an attempt by her to "protect" your feelings ("protect" that's not quite the right word but it will have to do as I can't think of a better one). I know in my case, I *thought* by trying to send the signal that I wasn't into it earlier on, I would avoid the rejection later when contact was more intense. But it was rejection nonetheless. I see that now.
Something else I noticed (and recall physical touch is one of my main LL)...H would get frustrated sometimes when I would...er...touch him while he was making breakfast say. He'd ask why I didn't do it earlier, when we were still in bed. I think this reflects 2 things: (1) I evidently wanted to touch him but in a way that didn't send the message that it would lead to sex, and (2) he seemed to think that touch leads to sex. And I think that's the crux of it really - different expectations around what physical touch means. No right or wrong. Just is.
Man, I feel like a fool for making it all sound so complex. But I guess it is given that so many couples struggle with this. Based on my reading, it seems the patterns are just as reproducible across different Rs as the WAS scripts are that we all see on here.
Wow, gan, I just read through the last few pages of your thread. What an interesting discussion. It's unfortunate that sex seems to be such a source of stress for so many couples when it has the potential to be so binding. I'm not going to weigh in on the topic, I missed that window of opportunity, but it did give me something to think about. And reinforces my belief that I settled for far too long but makes me fear that by refusing to settle next time I'll end up with nothing.
Oh...but it's never too late to weigh in SunnyB. I'll be opening a new thread soon...
Also, for those of you who were wow'd by my 25km hike plus yoga - I think I've discovered the secret. I did another 30km hike this past Sunday. Threw in some half pigeon pose after (Eka Padarajakapotasana - as if I didn't just google that) and I was really good on Monday. For the runners out there, you can find a few running sites that recommend it.
One of the things that's been really interesting to me is realising how introverted I am. I'm not the classic "prefers to stay at home and read a book" introvert so didn't identify with that classic example. Actually, I'm pretty outgoing and enjoy bouncing around ideas with other people rather than being left to my own devices. But I'm not comfortable being the centre of attention (at least when the focus is me personally; I'm totally fine speaking in front of people on an area of my expertise). I prefer to get to know people over a coffee with groovy music in the background, rather than out at a big party with loud music in the foreground (concerts are another matter). This time alone has definitely helped me see my introverted tendencies in a new light. I realise I have a rich inner world going on upstairs. It probably explains why I was content to just dabble away on my computer or whatever.
Hi I'm Jim and this ^^^^^ describes me pretty much perfectly
what i have found though is that opening up a little bit, and in truth not a huge amount has really opened up some more human connections for me, I think Brene Brown would say i've shown some vulnerability. Its still really uncomfortable mind.
And I think that's the crux of it really - different expectations
a sentence which seems to sum up so many of the issues that get describe round these parts.
and one thats so easily resolved by some effective communication - If only i knew that sooner......
so is Uganda work or holiday?
Yup.
Uganda is for work. No cows this time. All people.
I guess that means they can't trade much with Tanzania
I hope there is a suitably obscure and very specific title for the paper that gets published after these trips
Oh boy, Jim. You've thrown down the gauntlet now. My co-authors will wonder what an earth is going on with my suggestions.
Join me for more thrills on my new thread
here.