The first thread was great, very helpful to me and I’m sure others. Is it possible to continue with some of the next steps?
I read a post of yours in another thread (page 2 of Miman2) about when the WW comes back, how to tell if it’s just a temperature check or genuine, some responses to some of her statements ("I would have to feel I would not be hurt again, and considering everything, I don't know that I can take that risk yet").
Can you re-post that here or expand on it?
Yes, I would LOVE to see Sandi expound upon a "Letting Them Back Too Easy?" theme, from her unique FWW perspective.
That would be GOLD.
Starsky
Yes, I would LOVE to see Sandi expound upon a "Letting Them Back Too Easy?" theme, from her unique FWW perspective.
That would be GOLD.
Starsky
If they want to come back then they need to do work too!
It can not be a free ride! JMHO.
Yes, I would LOVE to see Sandi expound upon a "Letting Them Back Too Easy?" theme, from her unique FWW perspective. That would be GOLD.
Agreed. In 2009, my WAW cheated on me and when she confessed, I forgave her on the spot (when she asked if I forgave her I said yes immediately, no hesitation). We didn't do any systematic work, apart from the honeymoon period after R. Five years later, she did the same thing and now we're heading to a D. Letting them back too easy feels good on the moment, but doesn't seem to provide long lasting results.
The next steps.......yikes.
Well, let me first point out again that this is advice for the LBH who has a
wayward wife.
Miman2 had asked me to advise him and it was a little difficult b/c of the ground I was trying to cover. I will tell anyone here that there are no quick methods or sure fire steps to take that guarantees to save your M. People say they
know, but then they want to jump right into how to proceed with reconciliation.
I didn't feel that I did a very good job with that post, b/c you just can't cover everything at once. I will copy & paste, and hope I don't make too big of a mess. (I did correct a couple of misspelled words.)
Miman2:
So I think she stopped by the apartment without me knowing. I noticed this morning that some things were missing. Should I call/txt her and ask her about it or no because I should be detaching??
No, b/c you should have already been detaching. Are you sure you understand about detaching?
I normally read one's thread before giving advice, so what I will say is the advice I would give a H who had a wayward W.
Quote:
It's been one month since I've seen her. Still no contact about her coming to get some stuff. What I've been wondering is how do I handle it if she says she misses me, I know the general idea is we have to wait until they are 100% committed to working on the R or M but how do I best transition that? Or do I just test to see if she's even interested in working on stuff?
Let's break this down a bit, b/c none of this is going to happen all at the same time.
If she should make contact with you, she will probably use some excuse as being the basis of her contact. In the conversation, she may just say something about missing you. You want to know how you should respond, right? My suggestion is that you don't make an instant reply, b/c this is no big "sign" that she's having second thought or anything. It is more like her temp checking you to see that you are still attached. So what do you normally say when someone makes a statement you find very hard to believe. That is kind of the attitude you need at this particular time, that you know she is full of BS. You don't say it, but you know that's what she is doing.
I doubt you will follow my advice, but you should say, "Really!" (as if you know she's lying) "Surprisingly, I have made it much better than I would have thought".
Do you know why you tell a WW this? So she will think you are moving on........and she was the one to set you free! Even though she may respond in such a way that sounds differently, that will be what she is thinking. She has made you a free agent. This train of thought will get her focus on you a lot more than you could imagine! Do not sound like some pitiful victim that has been booted out of his M. Sound like a guy who is single and is discovering it's not too bad!
I am not sure if I understand the second part of that first question. The waiting till they are ready to commit to the M is referring to reconciliation. It is unlikely she will call out of the blue, saying she wants to save the M. However, if that should happen, do not jump at the chance to tell her, "Yes, of course!". You stall, and say something like, "I would like to believe you, however, things aren't that simple now". Then if she asks what you mean, you say, "I would have to feel I would not be hurt again, and considering everything, I don't know that I can take that risk yet". (Side note: You can even practice saying these things to yourself, if it will give you more confidence.)
By this point in the contact, you may be able to decide if she's temp checking or if she's genuine. I can assure you that if you seem excited about the possibilities of getting back together, it will turn her away. If there was ever a time to act hard to get, it would be at this time. She has to really want you back.......and not b/c she saw how tough life can be, or b/c OM rejected her, or b/c having you as plan B is safe. You want her back b/c she desires no man but you! If you agree to take her back under any other conditions, it will not be the M you want.
You are waiting to hear her ask what would it take. That is the time to tell her the conditions, and don't tell her before she asks. The conditions should be that she writes a letter to OM, stating that she made a terrible mistake by ending her R with you, and that she does not love OM and never wants to have contact with him again. She tells him she loves you and wants to work on her M. She writes this in her handwriting, no email or text, not even typed out. She gives it to you to read before mailing it. YOU mail the letter, not her.
She agrees to your transparency plan, not hers. She agrees to get tested for any STD, with you going with her to the doctor. She agrees to attend MC sessions with the therapist you choose.
I am probably leaving something out, but you get the general idea. There is a lot to consider when reconciling, or you will have a repeat experience in all probability.
A few things to look for, which are essential. One, is she remorseful? If not, don't waste your time. Does she get an attitude about any of the above? Has she apologized? How willing is she to do the necessary work? If she balks, accuses you of controlling, starts giving you her conditions of coming back, tells you that you'll just have to trust her, or any excuse for not fully cooperating with everything you want........then she was not really ready.
See what I mean? There is more involved than her simply missing you. And btw, it may take a long time for her to really miss you. Know the difference here, missing you is one thing........willing to do what is necessary to save the M is quite another!
Ah, thanks friend. Always helps to have support.
Sandi- just wanted to add my 2 cents from a LBH perspective on one of the biggest lessons I learned throughout my sitch.
My 'Mr Nice Guy' personality didn't help, but when I look back on my interactions with WAW, I'm ashamed at how much I tried to avoid rocking the boat (because I was afraid of the potential outcome). Easy to say, hard to do, but taking a strong, confident stance early on is key. Far too often, I gave W the benefit of the doubt or only heard what I wanted to hear. I bit on every worm she threw into the water, as opposed to standing up for myself and what I need/want in a R. I think all of that has only prolonged my sitch and muddied the waters between us.
When I finally got to a place where I could take back that power from WAW felt great and made me feel so much better about myself.
Question about what a WW tells her husband.
The last great effort the XW and I made was in November. We were doing really well and in that time she wrote me a Anniversary card. In it she wrote about how much she has felt we both changed and how we were doing great together and how we could make it through anything that came our way. I took her words as the truth and I still think she meant every word of it. She seemed to be focusing on "us“ and seeing things the way I saw them, not perfect but on our way.
We even had talks about us and being better and feeling better together. She even talked about being excited for the holidays and how she had not felt that way for a long time.
The last time she validated that we could work through any issues was a couple of days before we listed our house for sale. She expressed that she was nervous that she was forcing me to sell the house. I told her she wasn't, but asked why she brought it up. She explained that she would feel bad if something happened and we didn't work out. I asked if she felt there was any reason we wouldn't work out and she said no.
I truly believed every word she said or wrote to me, and I still believe she meant it.
Two weeks after the house talk she said she was done trying and wanted a D. She said nothing has changed and the holidays sucked and she just wanted a D.
I suspect (now) that the contact with the OM started again during this time. They work at the same place and she started back to work then also.
So Sandi my question is were these feelings she expressed to me true and the addiction to the OM changed her viewpoint or was she just keeping me as plan B for a while? Or is there another explanation or any way of knowing?
I feel she was being genuine but the OM made her change her behavior again like you described earlier in the previous thread. She got a taste of her drug and became addicted again.
I think she was trying to convince herself.
She felt like the M was ending, but she wasn't ready to accept it. So she was telling herself "we'll work through it", etc, etc.
But she had another voice telling herself "this won't work, I'm not happy, I want more, it will never get better", etc.
She vocalized the positive voice around you...but in the end she believed the other voice.
I think she was trying to convince herself.
She felt like the M was ending, but she wasn't ready to accept it. So she was telling herself "we'll work through it", etc, etc.
But she had another voice telling herself "this won't work, I'm not happy, I want more, it will never get better", etc.
She vocalized the positive voice around you...but in the end she believed the other voice.
Yep, I've unfortunately had the same thing happen to me. In my case, this all came right after I confronted her about OM, which I didn't know about during BD. At this time, OM wasn't working out, she had second thoughts but I think she wasn't over OM. It was 'new' enough being away from me that it was liberating for her she then blamed her being away from me on now being 'happy.' Well, I didn't bite too much, but like go go, I think her words were the right words, the time was bad. As Sandi has said, timing is everything. Now I see the 'happy' away is not really 'happy' for her and she's struggling to find the next excuse why she doesn't want to do the work. I'm going to need the right words and 'see' the change in her before there's any Chance of me taking her back.
Do not sound like some pitiful victim that has been booted out of his M. Sound like a guy who is single and is discovering it's not too bad!
This advice makes sense and like much DB doesn't come naturally.
Maybe I am done. I am all for standing for my M, but my WW has made her choices and I have no interest in playing games to try to jolt her out of a phase and win her back. She choose other men, alcohol, and a wayward lifestyle over me. That's her journey now. I'm not really interested in giving her enough influence over me to impact how I act around her. It would be on her to prove to me that it's worth giving her the time of day again, not the other way around.
That's not to say I won't do 180s for ME, and that I haven't learned from my mistakes. But they aren't to chase after someone that won't treat me in a way I am ok with.
As for that attitude in general...I don't know that I feel I'm a "victim"...but I don't feel the need to pretend that I didn't incur a devastating loss. Yes, I'll go on and appreciate what God gave me. I'm doing well in my life and will be ok. But I believe in M, I don't believe in D, and I feel acting like "meh, I'm single, party!" doesn't fit my character and beliefs. Again, if this doesn't woo back a WW then she is free to stay gone. Maybe someone will appreciate what I offer some day, maybe not. But this is who I am.
Yes, I would LOVE to see Sandi expound upon a "Letting Them Back Too Easy?" theme, from her unique FWW perspective.
We have to consider the makeup of the wayward mindset. In my simple breakdown, I would say there are 3 main veins that run to the wayward heart/mind. Those 3 are Resentment, Disrespect, and Rebellion. If you have ever experienced dealing with these feelings yourself, or dealt with another person who had them......you know it takes a lot of work to resolve those feelings completely.
Even if she is willing and trying to come to terms with it, the emotion and flashbacks that caused the resentment, still want to creep around inside her head. And there are trigger points that can set it into a beinge effect. If she has allowed herself to be controlled by her emotions (which, of course, waywards do) then it will prove to be very challenging for her and the H, just in different ways. However, I am a firm believer that it can be accomplished, if the WW wants to let go of it badly enough. Sadly, many don't want to turn lose of anger or whatever seems to control them at the moment, as crazy as that sounds. It requires a lot of self discipline, and which we know WW's have very little. Intellectually, they know they should do everything in their power to get rid of it. But what will it take to give them that "want to" get rid of it? That is the question that leads back to the H not being able to force her what to feel. However, he can certainly influence!
I wish I knew how to explain the dynamics in the female - male relationship. Then perhaps I could better explain why her respect for the H is vitally important, and how that respect, or disrespect, affects their entire MR. It definately affects her feelings for him (and I will get back to this in a second). If a man allows his WW back into the MR........
knowing he does not have her respect, he will never be appreciated, much less admired. Unless she simply fakes it, she
can't admire him. Those dynamics would also better explain why she has the rebellious attitude with him, as though she were a teenager and he was the parent. It is a very complex relationship and it leaves the H completely baffled with why she would say and do some of the things she does in her wayward state.
LBH's should not let her back too easily, with no questions, no discussions or decisions. He had better have a plan and have an agreement from her to cooperate 100% with his
plan before he evers says they can reconcile......then hold her to it. Rug sweeping is no solution, period. It makes matters worse, so that route needs to be taken off the table immediately. Neither can the H "nice" her out of her waywardness. This is where I think some of the LBW's here on the board may have a problem with some of the tough love advice. B/c they would love it if their bad H was nice, especially if he had been abusive. However, these ladies are not wayward, and that's the main difference. I am telling you it does not work with a
wayward woman. It stems from those three areas......resentment, disrespect, and rebellion.
There are some things that time eventually heals, but I personally do not believe time, alone, can heal matters of this nature. Time, coupled with good counseling can help with
a big part. However, before a woman can begin to resolve these problems, she has to be willing to work at leaning how to let go of the past and stop blaming her H for everything. in her frame of mind, I believe she has to have some type of guidance from an unbiased source........and preferably, professional. I don't mean attending MC with her H, either. She first needs help just for herself. If she has a spiritual leader, I would recommend spiritual counseling, b/c these are matters of the heart. Once she begins to deal honestly with her feelings......and is seeking to learn new skills, the couple stands such a better chance at reconciling. And
then the couple should attend a good MC or a highly recommended M program, support groups or something that will help guide them through Piecing. Just leaving a couple to figure it out on their own is not the healthiest of choices. The main ingredient there is willingness from both sides.
I believe a woman cannot hold on to these three issues toward her H and/or the M, and have a warm, loving, sexual desire for him. These strong, negative feelings will surface almost daily in some sort of fashion. Some women may be HD enough they will want the act of sex, but they use the man as if he were some type of object in order for her to receive pleasure. Some women may play along and just tolerate the sex, but she doesn't feel the attraction and desire for him. And that's not to mention those who use sex as a way to manipulate the H. She may go through the act of ML, but that's all it will be. I can't give any scientific proof, IJMHO, that it is impossible for a woman to have that kind of inner contempt for her H.......and be able to feel attraction/desire for him. I believe
that is the true source for a lot of SSM.
She has to find
appropriate means to help her resolve this mindset in order to have peace within herself. By that, I mean her meeting with her new friends at the bar is not the guidance she should receive to resolve her bad feelings. Even if she were to move on to another relationship, this mindset toward her H, consequently affects her ability to have complete contentment in her life, IMO. She may try to ignore it, deny it, and act otherwise......but it still lives in her heart and it is a dark, cold leach that [censored] away at the core of her spirit. So, just imagine how it would be for the LBH to allow his WW to return to the MR too easily, instead of her doing the necessary work, first.
When or if a LBH lets his WW back into the MR too easily, it is comparable to dismissing someone who is pregnant. She is pregnant and must go through a laboring process. (The pregnancy/labor metaphor is applicable to many things. I used it in the last thread illustrating Piecing the M back.) In the pregnancy stages, the H notices when things become uncomfortable for her, she is grouchy, complains, nothing suits her, etc. Her hormones are wacky, so she does some weird and out of character stuff. The H usually does whatever he can to make things easier for her. In time, she starts to experience contractions, and things go into high gear. She may, or may not, turn to a professional for help. The labor can be long and agonizing, and most H's wish there was just something he could do to take her pain away. His role during that time
should be to show her he is emotionally strong, stable, and confident. She doesn't need to see him crying or begging her for anything. He doesn't show her how afraid he really feels. He doesn't start acting like a crazy person and screaming along with her, or reacting to her contractions. He doesn't even get upset when she screams, "This is all your fault. I will never let you touch me again".
This may not have been the greatest anology off the top of my head, but I hope some of you will see that the main message here is to let her go through the labor process. The H is making a bad mistake to let her back into the MR without her doing some work on herself. Why would a man want a woman to be with him and have those terrible feelings toward him? There are no short-cuts and those unresolved feelings will surface!
Wow Sandi, that's an incredible post and we are lucky indeed to have you here on the forum.
Do you think those emotions of resentment, disrespect and rebellion apply to any WAS, not just WAWs?
Really, we need a male version of you Sandi to start an equally fantastic thread for the wayward husbands!
I am astounded at how very REAL these posts are. I have been struggling for years with the wife not respecting or appreciating all that i have done. She is finally starting to recognize what i do, but still so very little appreciation. I am convinced she (along with so many in our families) have Irish Alzheimers, meaning they forget everything, but a grudge. The fact is she NEVER ever can let things go. She knows it and still cannot help it. It certainly has contributed in making things hard on us.
Thanks Toots, I appreciate your support and encouragent. I have been asked about the male version in the past, but I am very hesitant to speak on behalf of the WH. I thought maybe a former WH would pop in here one day and help us out. We have had LBH'S to admit to cheating in their M, but they never spoke of their wayward mindset. I only remember one man starting a thread who referred to himself as the cheater or adulterer, but he didn't stay very long, and I don't recall him ever talking about the specifics, the way I have tried to bring out about the WW. He just sounded so sad and unhappy, as if his W was punishing him by making him tell his story.
I actually wrote out a post in response to your request, then I thought, "Meh, what do I know?" (ha). It was a long one, too, if you can believe it. .
Seriously, I believe there are
some differences b/c of the dynamics and complexity in the husband - wife relationship. I just don't know that I could do a very satisfactory job at explaining it. It would be, after all, mostly my personal VP. Since I have never been a wayward husband, all I have is what I've read over the years, and observed in others.........and my memory isn't worth much for book references.
If I knew how to give short advice, (ahem) I would say the same advice basically applies to both sexes.
Sandi,
I sincerely appreciate your honesty and sincerity regarding this subject. I would love your perspective in my particular situation, as well as most recent developments. Everyone thus far, including myself, agrees that I need to drop the rope and get a lawyer, and that my WW has no intention of returning anytime soon.
I see what is in front of me, but am so scared to miss any little shred of hope. My problem is that I keep seeing her as she was vs how she currently is.
Just The labor can be long and agonizing, and most H's wish there was just something he could do to take her pain away. His role during that time should be to show her he is emotionally strong, stable, and confident. She doesn't need to see him crying or begging her for anything. He doesn't show her how afraid he really feels. He doesn't start acting like a crazy person and screaming along with her, or reacting to her contractions. He doesn't even get upset when she screams, "This is all your fault. I will never let you touch me
Always helps to read your perspective and anologies, which I think fits well. I get caught up with trying to identify what my wife is over and over (WAW/depressed W/WW) or some combination of all 3 and think I need to be doing something. I need to just let go and stop trying/wanting to control the outcome.
I also keep wanting W to come back too fast and I know that can have a bad outcome. Deep down I know if she does come back and it's not done right I may be the WAH/WH later down the road, which terrifies me more.
I think I finally understand the second half of:
"Really! Surprisingly, I have made it much better than I would have thought"
In other words, "Surprisingly, I have handled getting along without you easier than I thought I would have" ?
Sandi,
I have read a lot of your posts and your insight is great. I have a thread in the infedilty section but I was wondering if you had an opinion on how to approach face to face contact with WAW when SHE has the kids and seems to be in control. A lot of the situations I read about have the WAW have a PA, go off and do crazy things, and have LBH picking up the pieces with bills/house/kids.
I have the reverse in that somehow W has engineered it that although she had affair, separated from me, wants a divorce, she has moved out and has our kids. I'm meeting her later for first time in a week with kids. Part of the reason we've git to this specific point is because of my crying/begging/pleading/desperation in terms of threats to expose A and stupidly to commit suicide (not seriously meant but still said).
I wonder how many others have done things so wrong in the beginning of a S that they have pushed the balance of power regarding kids, decision making etc to the WAW who it seems should be the one outcast from the family setting for her actions, not relocating it and having the LBH be outcast.
Although this is specific to me it may help others in a similar situation.
Maybe I should have also added whether in this case of WAW having the children whether the LBH should do what he can to be there and help with kids (if wanted/allowed) or take the tougher road in the short term of stepping back altogether and seeing whether WAW struggles with the kids alone and due to LBH backing off WAW may start to seek him out. I hope I'm making sense. Myself, I would like to be there at every moment for my kids and would never abandon them, but I do feel that if I'm helping out, running around doing school drop offs etc if I'm just facilitating an easier life for WAW and not allowing space for her to 'need' me. Does what I'm saying make sense? It's tricky balancing parenting responsibilities with pulling back, particularly when pulling back leads WAW to use guilt on LBH of not helping with children to manipulate LBH to help as she chooses. How would you suggest approaching that situation? Finally, in my own case, I'm trying to implement LRT. Any suggestions on that in general and how children might impact the viability of it?
Hi Sandi, I have a thread here in newcomers that I'd like you to take a look at the last question. My WW currently wants to come to a financial arrangement. Now I look at what you suggest about stopping paying for her cell phone etc.. I am very worried that I am being too nice and paying for her to maintain the same lifestyle. However how do I pay for that lifestyle for my children and yet restrict hers? I am concerned if I under pay her, she will just remove benefits from the children to maintain her quality of life... I know she is already doing this by spending money on petrol to visit the OM which is costing her about £200 a month.
Finally and I realise this sounds crazy, and tbh mean to the other party involved.. But how about getting another girlfriend? I only ask as it seems to me that would shock WW and get the jealously kicking in.. I have no interest in OW at the moment. I would cut off a limb to be re-united with my WW but hence I would do anything to increase the likelihood of that reunion becoming sooner!
Hi Alpha,
I think this is a very interesting point. I also currently do a lot of looking after the children, whenever I do the WW is with the OM. I love and miss seeing my kids everyday, but perhaps if I withdrew totally she would realise that she can only continue the A with my help... The danger is she then decides to start acting desperately. Bringing him round the house etc... Arrrgggghhhh! why do I feel like every decision I have to be thinking 12 steps ahead!
I am very interested for Sandi2's input on this as well.
To continue further along on the subject of letting the WW back into the MR too easily (or without her going through the process of working to rid herself of the waywardness, as discussed in my last post). I think we see many H's who are so focused on just getting his W back, that he wants to make it as easy as possible for her return. In doing so, he takes her back without her changing anything about herself. He has worked on himself, but she has changed nothing. Maybe she said she ended the A, but she still has resentment, disrespect, and rebellion in her heart.
One of the popular sayings on the board is to "keep the road home paved smooth". I don't argue with it, however, I do get concerned at how many men jump on that one cliche' and use it as their defense to not taking bolder moves. Some newcomer men are "nice guys" and they are already filled with fear. If he is given advice that might challenge him, he begins looking for something that "permits" a more passive position. Therefore, he grabs this "keeping the road paved smooth" as his game plan. He applies it in every response to his wife's waywardness, disrespect, recklessness, and selfishness. In other words, he uses this as his slogan and as his excuse in not applying any sort of tougher love approach, b/c in reality, the whole tough love idea scares them. They want to interpret it as saying, "It is okay to be the doormat, and nice her back into the MR".
Out of respect to 25yrsmlc and any other board members who give the advice of keeping the road paved smooth, I feel the problem may be in how some of the readers want to interpret it, and not necessarily the intended message given. I have my interpretation of "keeping the road home paved smooth", and I do not see it as a ticket for weak behavior from the LBS. Just as one example, would be when the LBS chooses to get involved in another relationship. That could cause enough barriers to prevent the wayward spouse returning to the M. That possibility should be considered if the LBS should decide to start dating (assuming there is a physical separation).
A WW does not have to live apart from the LBH to classify as wayward. She can emotionally leave the M. Maybe she hasn't dropped a bomb, but the H discovers there is OM somewhere in the picture. From what we read here on the board, the majority of WW's will drop the bomb if she is confronted. If the H confronts the WW, he needs to be prepared to hear that she wants a D......statements that she gave up years ago, yada, yada.
So, how does a H know if he is making it too easy for his WW to come back into the MR? There are some telling signs. She doesn't want counseling, she doesn't want to cooperate in a transparency plan, she doesn't want to do anything to change herself, and she has the audacity to tell the LBH he will just have to trust her. She may shed a couple of tears (which aren't for the H, btw, they are her self-pity tears), but she has no deep remorse for what she has done. She expects him to be able pick up where the MR was left.
Don't take offense with this description, but the wayward mindset is like a disease that eventually affects those around her, dealing with the fallout of her actions. The emotional stress for those who live within the same household, can be devastating. It may be all about her, but it affects the entire family. For the WW, or her H, to act as if she has suddenly snapped out of this disease could be fatal for their MR. I really wish the LBH'S would lose the notion of doing some technique to snap their WW right back into the R. I do believe there are things he can do that would yank her out of the fog pretty quickly, but it should be within that narrow time slot immediately upon discovering her A, confrontation, or the bomb drop. Usually by the time he finds the DB board, he admits to the crying, begging, etc. He continues waiting around, hoping it will just work itself out, as her waywardness gets worse. He tries some of this and some of that, until he has waited too long to have the same effect as it would have initially.
Her wayward mindset is the biggest problem in this entire ordeal. The longer she sees him waiting, the more secure she feels that he can be her fallback plan. As long as she feels she has him under her control (emotionally attached), why should she change anything? The old W would have appreciated him standing for their M, but once waywardness takes over, she sees his standing more as a barrier to her happiness. It will be after she weathers the storm of waywardness that her appreciation for her H will be felt.
Let's say the WW tells the H she decided she'll stay in the M if ___________(fill in the blank). In other words she gives him her conditions. Amazing! Remember, he is so focused on getting her back and busting a D, that her conditions sounds okay to him. He figures it buys him time and they can work out their differences later. But for whatever reason she has decided to stay, (usually some form of pressure......like finances) it does not take care of those three main conflicts stirring within her all the time. Resentment, disrespect, and rebellion will come forth in only a matter of time, b/c she has not worked to resolve those issues.
Her resentment becomes intolerable for her, and her lack of respect
for her H eats away like a cancer. Her rebellion has not gone away, either. It nags her and tempts on every hand. Even if she made an effort to end her A, these three issues are supplying her with plenty of excuses to contact OM again, or to go out and party all night, or maybe surf some dating sites, whatever may beckon her to act inappropriately. Some women are better actresses or can cover-up better than others, but it usually doesn't take long for the H to see their MR still has big problems. These three issues cannot be swept under the rug. In fact, I believe they are intensified if she gets back into the M too easily.
In order for her to become who she once was, that waywardness has to die all the way down to the root. It is very unpleasant for her, and it is a process much like pregnancy, labor, and giving birth (which that takes nine months, and this may take longer). My point is it can't happen overnight. She can't just "snap" back to being like she was before she had all this mess in her heart, no more than she can spit a baby out the minute she conceives. She has to go through the morning sickness, the cravings, and the burden. She has to deal with misery. Then comes the real pain.....LABOR! She thinks she's dying! It's too hard. She can't do it, and wants to give up. She has to keep pushing, with the whole sweat & tears stuff, until she accomplishes this birthing process. So goes the process for the WW's.
This process is necessary for her to become even similar to the W you recognize as loving in the past. She will respect her H, and she can once again have those loving feelings for him. She can earnestly reach out to her children and work to repair the hurt the caused them (as much as humanly possible). Her attitude/heart will be receptive and cooperative to his transparency plan. She welcomes the opportunity to prove herself as being trustworthy. She is willing to get help through counseling or M programs, and do whatever is necessary to piece together a strong MR with her H.
Sandi - This so much describes my situation and my WW.
I never thought I fit into this forum very well because my wife never said she wanted to divorce me, never left, never was verbally abusive or even angry. Just disrespectful with the lies told and secretes that she had. She just continued to live a double life that she tried to hide as well as she could (and she got very good at it) - and lied to me and everyone else about it. It seemed like this is exactly what she wanted.
Now, when she says she wants back in to our M, she is not indicating that she wants to do any work to get there. She only wants to get closer. This to, to me, may only be a more highly advanced cover of what she may actually want - both (with me as the family and him as the - you know).
The minute I pushed back with some things that I needed - NC & transparency, she lost what seemed like momentum in her return. In fact she has refused to give me anything that I have asked for.
If I let her back as easily as she seems to want it, without seeing any real changes in her, I don't think that I will trust again. I will always be looking for signs of OM or another OM.
Sandi- Thank you so much for starting this thread and continuing with sharing your wisdom. You are awesome.
U-turn, my wife is very similar. Never talked of divorce. But the lies, secrets and double life are what I am also dealing with.
Sandi, this helps me alot! I have been thinking lately about how I would accept my wife back into the M if she approached me about it. There are several things that would have to happen and it would take some time. Lots of time I think.
I wonder how many others have done things so wrong in the beginning of a S that they have pushed the balance of power regarding kids, decision making etc to the WAW who it seems should be the one outcast from the family setting for her actions, not relocating it and having the LBH be outcast.
You can read the scores of threads about other LBH'S who made terrible blunders out of fear and desperation. If only they could see from her eyes just how pathetic they make themselves. The LBH who reacts in this type of manner is so removed from the man he was when she first fell in love with him.
I'm going to be terribly blunt with you, and hope anyone reading on will learn from your mistakes, b/c you have made some serious ones. I have to ask if
you would want to spend your life with a woman who emotionally abused you? B/c that is what you are doing to her when you threaten suicide if she doesn't do what you want. Do you think it appeals to her sympathy? Do you want her to stay out of pity for you, or in fear of what you may do to yourself? Can you see this being a form of control? I hope you are serious about not ever trying something like that again.
I believe most women would see any kind of threat from the man as him controlling her. You said you threatened to expose her A. Did you expose it or just threaten her? I sent a post earlier about keeping the road home paved smoothly, and explained how I do not believe that means for a man to be a doormat, afraid to upset his WW. Let me add that any form of abusive behavior from the H definitely makes for a rocky road back home. You probably cringe when I use the word abuse, but you have to stop with the threats. No woman will fall into the arms of the man who threatens her.
WW's will use two primary cards with their LBH's. One is
guilt, and the other is
control. She guilts the H in manipulating him to do whatever she wants. If he clamps down on her, she claims he is controlling. I have not read your thread, so I don't know what all has taken place. Perhaps she is the worst b'tch to walk the planet, IDK. But I do know that these actions from you are "controlling", and now she can legitimately use both cards to play against.
You can be an example for any of the LBS, b/c both men and women have done the same as you. I don't know how recently this all took place, but now you are concerned now about how to approach or face her when you go to get the kids.
Let me lump you and any other LBH'S together when I say you need to stop with the antics. They don't work, and you can make matters much worse. Which, considering she's in an A, moved away with the kids, and has the upper hand.......seems questionable, right? It's true, though, you can be your own worst enemy. The LBH can louse things up by trying all kinds of gimmicks to get her back. Ironically, it is when he drops all of that stuff and leaves her alone that works better than anything. Just stop trying to get her back, b/c it is causing you to do bad things.
Use the time you are leaving her alone to turn yourself into an attractive, confident man who doesn't have to beg someone to love him. Grow as person and build a new life. If the two of you get back together some day, you can introduce her to your new friends and interesting activities. Please don't let your eyes just skim over these words. It is said so much here on the board until I wonder if men tune it out. They are looking for something quicker and easier. Drop the rope you have around her, change yourself, and get a life.
Also, get a lawyer! This goes for you and some others who asked about scheduling child visitstion and what the H is responsible for financially. You need legal advice and assistance or you may lose your kids. I don't know where you live but find someone who will fight for your rights as a father. Have a legal appointed child support amount you pay, and a schedule for when each parent has the kids. I know that some couples try to work this out without legal help, but a lot of WW's take advantage and punish the H through these two avenues (money and kids). And, a lot of LBH'S use their own children, consciously or subconsciously, as an excuse to contact the W......or even punish her. Don't be a slave to her demands, her time schedule, or her calendar. Don't allow her to bully you. The fair thing to do is have it all in writing and have an outside source, preferably legal, to enforce if necessary.
As for how to act when coming face to face, again I suggest you avoid it if you can. At least until you feel more confident. Don't be
afraid to face her, but avoid it as an opportunity to interact with her, right now. You need to pull back as far as possible. For example, if you go to get the kids to take to school, can you wait in the car for them?
I know things must look very dark, but you can turn yourself around, and in time she could be attracted to the
new you. It would almost be as if she were meeting a new person and learning to trust him.....only harder. This is will take a long time to really change, and longer for her to fully believe it will last. Plus, she has work on her side of the street, too.
I want to offer you hope, yet I want you to realize it will take longer than you think.
Sandi what a great anology of the waw. I have been on this Rollercoaster for 14 months and look back at my sitch and all the opportunities that I let slip by. My waw is turning 49 next week. So much of what I read In your post fits her to a tee.
Sandi,do you think a waw who has unresolved child hood issues with her father have a greater chance of going wayward? I guess another way to ask is from your experience with waw's is this an issue you see playing a role in the waw's demise? I have read a lot of books and I see the impact of a dads relationship with daughters playing a significant role in there seldom esteem etc. Love to hear your thoughts on this.
Hi. Great post I think it takes the LBS a long time to realise what you are saying. For me it's taken 6 months to see that W is wayward and not just unhappy or sad. Thanks. I hope all newcomers gett to see this asap.
Take care. Rd
Thanks for these threads Sandi.
I find myself in this situation, where I did let my WAW come back to easily.
From D-Day in December to March, I was chasing her. She went from a loving wife and caring mother to acting like a teenager, spending entire weekends, even sleep overs during weekdays, with the OM. She talked about separation, she wasn't happy, basically followed the script.
When I did the 180 at the end of Feb, she was the one who asked me if we can still work it out and of course I said yes.
I told her she has to go NC with OM, but she hasn't been serious about it. She said something like baby steps. She stays at home now, doing more work around the house, talking about future vacations, but I know she's still texting and possibly seeing OM during the weekdays.
We're friendly at home, even sweet, so I'm really confused how to handle this situation. She does ask for my attention and affection, something that was lacking pre A.
I fear that when I go strict on her like a parent, it will turn her off and run back to the OM.
How can I make her "go thru pregnancy" as you put it, without her leaving again?
Any advice?
Would be nice if people could check my thread:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2549137#Post2549137
Sandi,do you think a waw who has unresolved child hood issues with her father have a greater chance of going wayward? I guess another way to ask is from your experience with waw's is this an issue you see playing a role in the waw's demise?
What kind of unresolved issues does she have with her father?
Was talking to my friend about this and he came up with an interesting analogy.
Suppose someone had saved up a lot of money over 10-20 years. Then, they became a drug or gambling addict. They might burn through all of their savings, then eventually max out all of their credit lines, doing whatever they needed to for them to keep getting their fix. They might continue until they had no more money, their credit was shot with friends and with creditors, and they had no way left to get their drug of choice. Only then might they hit rock bottom.
Similarly, the love and emotional goodwill of the LBS is like the "savings account". The WW will throw the LBS some GENUINE feelings of conflict, regret, and affection, but the true purpose is so they LBS doesn't "cut them off". The true goal is to be able to avoid consequences and maintain a lifestyle in which they get their fix. They won't stop until the LBS gets tired of the game and genuinely lets go.
In the gambling/drug situation, the moment the other spouse tried to shut off access to the bank accounts, the addict would throw a FIT. The spouse is now a threat to their fix and so they become an enemy, subject to manipulation, rage, abuse, etc. So too with LBS's, the moment they ask for transparency and the requirement to leave OM, etc, the WW kicks and screams and get's really angry about how "they are trying to work on the M but you are making it impossible for me to want to", etc.
BEST THING A LBS CAN DO IS SHUT OFF ACCESS TO THE EMOTIONAL SAVINGS THAT WERE BUILT OVER THE YEARS. DETACH AND DON'T ALLOW YOUR DESIRE FOR R TO AVOID THE REALITY OF WHAT IS GOING ON.
Walk away, GAL, detach, take care of yourself. Maybe WW will bottom out someday. That can't happen unless you make peace and regain your independence, because as long as you NEED the M, the WW will use that to control the situation and avoid reality.
That's good, Zeus, and very true.
Great analogy Zeus but kinda scary.
My kinda of detachment and GAL is rather drastic.
I lived in SE Asia from 2000 - 2010. I have more family and friends there than I have here. So my last resort would be to resin from work, leave the kids with the WAW and go there for a couple months just to GAL and get myself together. Whether she comes to her senses or not, I'm hoping to come back stronger so I can be able to move forward with whatever the situation may turn out to be.
Sandi2, my wife's father left his wife and 3 kids when my wife was 2. The nxt weekend all the kids were sent to live with grandparents 2 hours away.
It's a sad story but 3 kids were then split up my wife went back to her mother at age 5. One brother went to dad and other brother stayed with grandparents. My wife has been writing her father letters throughout our 17yrs of marriage and never sent them. He is remarried and treats my wife like a stepchild
Anyway she has had self esteem issues.
Her oldest brother died in an accident 25yrs ago her other brother lives in the same town as we do. We have always been close with him and his family until last 2 yrs. I am still close but wife thinks he hates her so she has shut him and his family off completely the last 2 yrs.
The dynamic is she is jealous of her brother because of his relationship with her dad. Whenever dad is on the outs with brother she becomes chummy with dad.
She is turning 49 next week and is now talking about getting her masters etc...everything is always trying to please dad because he never loved her unconditional.
Wow that was a lot to share. I hope it's something you can comment on.
Determined, I hope I was able to address your questions within the post I replied to Alpha. If the couple is still living under the same roof, I believe the H should not finance any of her personal bills, such as: cell phone, beauty salon, manicures and spas, gas for her car, nights out on the town, etc. Some people may argue that those are punitive actions, but that is not the case. All of these things are applied to her wayward lifestyle, and you would be enabling it. Neither is not about control, but it is about you not supporting something that goes against your core values (if it does). If it doesn't, then you need to examine your own heart to see the true motivation behind your actions.
When a couple separates, It can get complicated over finances and scheduling for the kids. She naturally wants to continue the lifestyle she is accustomed to, and really expects you to support it. She wants all the advantages of a M, but without the commitments & responsibilities. That is why I suggest making it official. Otherwise, she will keep you twisted in knots, causing you anguish over how she is spending your money and her control over when you get the kids.
How do you draw the line in making sure the money goes toward the kids instead of her spending it for something else? When you pay a lump sum for child support, I don't think you get to designate how it is spent. She is the admistrator in that home. I don't know where you live, but if you have a lawyer, I am sure he could advise you. To my knowledge, and narrow experience, the W receives the check once a month (or how ever it is set up) and then it is up to her how she manages that money. It can be a bitter pill, but in the long run, I believe it is better to have it automatically drafted and keep you detached from having to actually write out that check and physically handing it over to her. B/c I see it like constantly picking the scab on a wound. It doesn't get better if it continues to bleed.
I have divorce all around me in my family, and have seen it from the woman's side and the man's side. Unfortunatly, both my S & D have now gone through the experience of divorce. I have seen the unfairness, manipulation, and control up close and personal. My advice is to let the legal system make the decision about the child support and also in scheduling the child-parenting calendar. If you don't, it will be a constant source of push-pull irritation. It can cause a rocky road in trying to reconcile later.
The dating issue is certainly a personal decision, and should be based on your own principles/spiritual beliefs. Otherwise, I could see a few advantages in it. However, let me clarify. To get a girlfriend with the intent of making the W jealous is not one of them. This could backfire in your face. Remember me talking about keeping the road back home paved smooth? Well, this can be applied here. Technically, you would be using another person much like a tool to get something you wanted. A person who has feelings, and who just might fall in love with you.......or become possessive and vindictive (think boiling bunny) . What if she got pregnant or you caught a STD? See what I mean? You would be digging some serious potholes in that road back home, You can't play with people to gain your own personal gratification.
Now, some guys have been able to go out and maybe have a friendly, non-intimate type of "date". It can cause jealousy for the W. But is it effective in getting the WW out of her A and back home again? My answer is that the MR has to be built on fabric much stronger than jealousy. In fact, it won't work if that is all they have.
If you are seeking some technique to use in getting your W back, I would discourage you in taking the route of getting a GF.
Hope this helps you.
Member
Registered: 06/02/14
Posts: 432
Sandi2, my wife's father left his wife and 3 kids when my wife was 2. The nxt weekend all the kids were sent to live with grandparents 2 hours away.
It's a sad story but 3 kids were then split up my wife went back to her mother at age 5. One brother went to dad and other brother stayed with grandparents. My wife has been writing her father letters throughout our 17yrs of marriage and never sent them. He is remarried and treats my wife like a stepchild
Anyway she has had self esteem issues.
Her oldest brother died in an accident 25yrs ago her other brother lives in the same town as we do. We have always been close with him and his family until last 2 yrs. I am still close but wife thinks he hates her so she has shut him and his family off completely the last 2 yrs.
The dynamic is she is jealous of her brother because of his relationship with her dad. Whenever dad is on the outs with brother she becomes chummy with dad.
She is turning 49 next week and is now talking about getting her masters etc...everything is always trying to please dad because he never loved her unconditional.
Wow that was a lot to share. I hope it's something you can comment on.
_________________________
M 54
W 48
T 19
M 17
D 12
Twin S 6
Twin S 6
Ilybnilwy 1/26/14
A discovered 2/3/14
D filed 7/25/14
Sumons served 8/14/14
Sandi, I was reading through Ben2010's posts and I saw something you posted there.
If it helps, I was very torn and confused. I changed my mind a thousand times a day. Now what may seem odd is that it was not my LBH that talked me into staying in the M. Remember, he could do nothing right, in my eyes. It was, however, total strangers who got my attention and told me the truth of what was happening to me.....and what was needed to get through the mess I was in.
If you don't mind me asking what total strangers? Here from the board?
Okay, thanks Igit. Maybe I can simplify this by saying it this way. If your W is having an A, she is already wayward. It is not a matter of her becoming wayward, b/c she's already there. One WW's behavior and attitude may be worse than another, but it's still coming from a wayward heart.
The information about her relationship with her father is sad, indeed. How much that conditioned her to be vulnerable for waywardness, I don't know. It may have set the stage for a negative self value throughout her life. I mean, look how parents are blamed for most of our psychological problems. However, I strongly believe that waywardness is a choice. Not that we wake up one morning and say, "I have decided to become wayward". No, it is broken down into small decisions & actions based upon the negative feelings of that person. Usually they have carried around a lot of resentment and/or other unhealthy feelings, and at some point it tips the scales in what is right to what I want. IMO, they are not receiving the positive/healthy things they need to keep the scales balanced. A better description may be to see the scales balancing what we know to be right on one side and what we are feeling on the other side. When the scales tip over to what we feel, then the emotions steer the actions. It may take some particular incident, or going through a long period of endurance that takes its toll to weight the scales down.......but when the side of what I want to feel becomes too heavy........that is when the line is crossed. They do some action that is contrary to the principles/values/belief system/code of morality they previously lived. But it's more than the matter of just one action. One action could be repented, confessed, forgiven, and left behind. Instead, the one action grows b/c it feeds on the emotions of that person. It becomes a different lifestyle, perhaps hidden for a time, but eventually becomes to big to hide.
People have to have a few healthy things in their life that off-sets the bad. That's why it is so important to nourish a MR. If not, we can expect trouble. What started as a reaction to negative feelings in small, but rebellious acts, grows into larger ones, compromising their integrity. The person they once were, fades into a new rebellious and selfish creature.
I have seen many newcomers come here with broken hearts, trying to rationalize the behavior of their S. I have seen many who immediately labeled the S as having a MLC. My intent is not to add more confusion for anyone about the wayward W. I hope to explain how the waywardness separates them from the W who leaves the M for other reasons. As I said, an A certainly defines her as wayward, especially if there has been no remorse and turning away from OM. Also, from many who are in MLC get involved in a A or other wayward behaviors. Reading the symptoms of the WAW, WW, & MLC sound very much alike, don't they?
People with low self-esteem, in unhappy marriages, dealing with constant high pressured drama, have years of unmet emotional needs........on & on, are susceptible to having an A. Let's face it, if we are human we are susceptible! Doesn't mean we will choose to have one, just that everyone has some kind of weakness and need in life. It can be met in a healty way, or unhealthy. I never thought I would get involved in an A, either. I just wasn't that kind of person. Ha! That type of thinking sets us up right there. We all are capable....if the heart is wrong and conditions are just right.
The smart person, and couple, would have an affair proof plan for their M. Sadly, most of us see no need to have one, until it's too late. The misconception is believing you don't need one b/c you trust each other, have a solid M, or b/c of religious reasons, or whatever. I have learned those can all be shot down.
Sandi, I have a question about this post. I can see how years of a W not getting her emotional needs met can push her over that edge. She starts thinking that it is time to think of herself and her emotional needs. But isn't this kind of saying, you didn't love me like I wanted to be loved so now I can find love elsewhere? I guess it confuses me some. I thought that we had talked about a WW and her actions are not justified because her bad things happened in her marriage? In my situation, I can see how I have handled things wrong. Not shown the love to my wife like she wanted. But I think that MC or couple retreats or just sitting down and actually talking are way better ways to handle things that doing things that make it worse." Keeping the road paved smooth" can also apply here I think. My wife has never sat down and sad, this bothers me when you do this or I want us to spend more time together or it hurts me when you act this way or say a certain thing. I would have at least known we had some problems.
Was talking to my friend about this and he came up with an interesting analogy.
Suppose someone had saved up a lot of money over 10-20 years. Then, they became a drug or gambling addict. They might burn through all of their savings, then eventually max out all of their credit lines, doing whatever they needed to for them to keep getting their fix. They might continue until they had no more money, their credit was shot with friends and with creditors, and they had no way left to get their drug of choice. Only then might they hit rock bottom.
Similarly, the love and emotional goodwill of the LBS is like the "savings account". The WW will throw the LBS some GENUINE feelings of conflict, regret, and affection, but the true purpose is so they LBS doesn't "cut them off". The true goal is to be able to avoid consequences and maintain a lifestyle in which they get their fix. They won't stop until the LBS gets tired of the game and genuinely lets go.
In the gambling/drug situation, the moment the other spouse tried to shut off access to the bank accounts, the addict would throw a FIT. The spouse is now a threat to their fix and so they become an enemy, subject to manipulation, rage, abuse, etc. So too with LBS's, the moment they ask for transparency and the requirement to leave OM, etc, the WW kicks and screams and get's really angry about how "they are trying to work on the M but you are making it impossible for me to want to", etc.
BEST THING A LBS CAN DO IS SHUT OFF ACCESS TO THE EMOTIONAL SAVINGS THAT WERE BUILT OVER THE YEARS. DETACH AND DON'T ALLOW YOUR DESIRE FOR R TO AVOID THE REALITY OF WHAT IS GOING ON.
Walk away, GAL, detach, take care of yourself. Maybe WW will bottom out someday. That can't happen unless you make peace and regain your independence, because as long as you NEED the M, the WW will use that to control the situation and avoid reality.
You are writing about my H!
V
I can see how years of a W not getting her emotional needs met can push her over that edge.
I wouldn't say it pushes over the edge, b/c that sounds as if she's forced over, against her will. However, it can cause her to have very negative feelings......and that sets the stage for waywardness.
She starts thinking that it is time to think of herself and her emotional needs
.
Like I said in my last post, it begins with having the wrong feelings in her heart. Those feelings continue to grow until it outweighs anythings else. Then she reacts to something, and with that comes a good feeling. So good, in fact, that she wants more. So she engages in more of the same behavior. She will try to justify her actions, but that doesn't mean they are!
It's not like she makes this sound decision that she should start thinking of herself and finding a better H, or even a lover who will make passionate love to her. This has been slowly building from a heart that is filled with resentment, disrespect for her H, rebellion, and maybe much more......like low self esteem, rejection, abandonment, lonliness, etc. There has been something missing. Her needs have not been met someway, somehow. Then usually something happens to either cause much stress or creates an opportunity. Either way, her guard is down. She is emotionally vulnerable. Perhaps some women welcome the temptation and responds greedily. Perhaps their heart has hardened against the H they don't even care. Perhaps it is a moment of weak desperation to feel desirable. We could list many possibilities! Bottom line is.......she's accountable for her actions. No matter how bad the M is, she is accountable for her own actions. If we start saying the H pushed her over the edge, then that sets her free of any responsibility. See what I mean? Sure, bad circumstances can influence our decisions. Being mentally or emotionally unstable can influence our decisions. Being in a terrible M can do terrible things to people. As one man told me once, the right thing to have done was for you to get D before deciding to have an A. Of course, at the time, I wanted to blame my H for everything. He was to blame for part of the breakdown in our M, but not my A.
But isn't this kind of saying, you didn't love me like I wanted to be loved so now I can find love elsewhere?
Maybe. I'm not sure how you mean this, b/c you are trying to make it sound too logical. WW's are not logical. Their emotions are leading their actions! Women think so differently from men, so how can I possibly explain where you understand?
I guess it confuses me some. I thought that we had talked about a WW and her actions are not justified because her bad things happened in her marriage?
I thought I clearly pointed out in my last post that her actions are not justified.
But I think that MC or couple retreats or just sitting down and actually talking are way better ways to handle things that doing things that make it worse." Keeping the road paved smooth" can also apply here I think
No, you are wrong. Instead of me repeating everything I have already said in this thread, why don't you go back and read my posts here? This really frustrates the he11 out me, Joe. I spent a very long time explaining why this very concept you just said about paving a smooth road is wrong!!!
Sitting down and have a long R talk doesn't do a thing to help a WW. But soft men will fall back on that cliche' b/c they are scared to do the action it takes when dealing with a WW. You had rather, even prefer, to take all the blame for you W's horrible behavior than to follow through with the boundary you set. Go back and read my thread, Joe.
Reading this makes me realize that I felt just like a WAW. And I probably resent my WAH for doing what I couldn't or wouldn't bring myself to do-- leave. I wanted to.
Sorry Sandi, I was not trying to frustrate you. I was talking about a WW. I meant that I think that if a W is unhappy in her marriage that maybe she should go with her husband to MC, a retreat or talk with the husband or D, before all of sudden have an affair. The WW is not making things easier to repair the marriage by doing these things. It makes it way harder and for some impossible. IMHO.
I was really just picking your brain and you answered all my questions. Plus I like reading your posts!
And I wanted to see if you would yell at me again!! LOL!!
I believe what triggered my wife to start acting this way was when her youngest son from her first marriage graduated. It was at that time that she began to change. I saw anger in her. She would talk about herself as being a bad girl. She always pointed out when other men would notice her. She shared these things as trying to hurt me. Her self esteem was very low. She began to talk about things that she normally did not. Her swears words became worse. She acted like she did not care about anything anymore.
The sad thing is our two younger children spent all summer at home playing video games during the day. There were alot of days that she would sit in her room all day doing her work. I started getting texts from younger D that her mom just sits and there on her computer. I was 30 miles away at work. This is before we moved to town. It felt like she did not want to do alot with them because of me. It was weird.
Dear LBHs,
I'd like to draw your attention to this portion which is a variation of the same theme you all have said in your own threads over time:
My wife has never sat down and said, this bothers me when you do this or I want us to spend more time together or it hurts me when you act this way or say a certain thing. I would have at least known we had some problems.
I would challenge this very grieviously erroneous "A$$umption" on your part for your wives have ALL said over a period of time how unhappy they were but you all have TUNED them out as "nagging." Then one day, the nagging stops. In your mind, all's well because she's stopped doing it...and you think the M is in good shape.
As MWD eloquently explains in the book, when your wife stops nagging, then your M has slipped into the danger zone because your wife has completely given up on the notion that you've heard her and not taking her concerns seriously.
This is when your W drops the bomb...and you come crying here all "shocked" that not a word was said about how
unhappy she truly was in the M.
Then you feign shock at the BD. Well, that got your attention FAST...alas...a bit too little, too late AFTER MONTHS (AND PROBABLY YEARS) of "nagging."
Really??!!
Are you all so tone deaf that you never HEARD a single word from your W raising the alarm about the state of the M and her unhappiness??!
Let me spell it out for you clearly here:
Your wife stops communicating her concerns because she's seen that YOU'VE not taken her concerns seriously despite her best efforts to call your attention to the growing problem.
You think all's well when she stops "yapping" at you. You think that your wife is all happy again.
Delusional thinking.
I am sure with your 20/20 hindsight now, you realize that the hints and clues were all there for you all along and YOU missed them.
I second Wonka's opinions.
My WAW tried to "tell" me through weird ways that she was unhappy. One method was using playing a song and expecting me to listen to the message and figure it out.
She often said "This marriage is broken" usually before I went ot of town on business which ruined my whole business trip. When I got home, she was back to normal. I gave up trying to figure out what she was really saying. I would say I need a specific example of what you are talking about and she would always say "You should know, I shouldn't have to tell you". I am many things but a mind reader I am not.
When her grandmother died in August I was not there (in a diferent state) now that I look back on it, I can tell that she really wanted me to be there. I was working and should have gone home to be with her but honestly I just didn't get it. I missed that signal. She started he affair at the end of August. I am sure she and her AP bonded over the loss of her grandmother. They were most likely in constant contact via texting and emails during this time period.
Crud - so many missed signals and opportunities to connect with her.
I regret all of that so much. Now she is beyond reach and I have no opportunity to reach her at all. A devastating loss for me and my kids.
I know you think that we are ALL stating the same thing. Guess what, my wife never "nagged". My wife never talked about anything through most of our marriage. I tried to talk to her. She wouldn't talk about anything. In all our years together, we had one conversation where she said she wasn't happy. And I sat down and LISTENED. I told her I was sorry. I did not realize I had upset her. I told her I will work on these things. My wife and I both grew up in families that don't talk much about our feelings (unless we have had a few drinks). She was worse than I was. I wanted to talk things out. Ironically the one conversation we had when she was not happy in the relationship was when D graduated. Than we have problems when her other S graduates. I started to wonder if I was being used to help raise her kids!! So our first conversation was 2 years before her S graduated. I did change in those 2 years and she has told me that I did.
Just for future reference, I came to this forum for help with my marriage. And hopefully some others to talk to because it is very hard going through all this alone. I came here for support and I also thought I would get some help from people who have been through this. I came here to learn about myself and to get advice from people that know. Some of us might be a little slower than others. Yes, I ask alot of questions. I want to learn. I want to do the right thing. It does not help when there are replies that make me dumb for bringing up a topic. Or that I was stupid because I never noticed problems in my marriage. Sometimes the replies I get make me not want to post or ask questions. Maybe I am being misunderstood in what I am saying.
See this is where the Divorce Busting gets confusing!! Wives send their husbands signals that they don't understand. After sending these signals for a long time, the wife finds another man. Than we come here and are told to avoid contact with them. Don't text, call, write or try to talk to them. So now the wife has more ammunition to say " I'm glad I left". Or we help push them out the door by doing all these things. I am suppose to validate my wife's feelings, but I can't because we are not suppose to talk about relationship things. Or I am suppose to DETACH. I wonder if this is really Divorce Busting or Divorce prepping??? I feel like the things I have been doing lately are pushing my wife out the door. I get the feeling she is stock piling money and spring cleaning so she is ready to leave.
Joe- you're making the faulty assumption that there is a "winning play" you can make that will bring your W back, and quickly at that. So by that rationale anything that doesn't immediately get her to come back to you isn't working.
Bad news. You can't control her. There is nothing on ANY forum that can change her mind. That is up to her.
That's a hard reality. Many people try DBing as a form of control, trying to do anything and everything to try to keep control of their relationship. That doesn't work. It just keeps them from detaching as they interpret every mood of their WAS as a sign of working or not working.
But while there isn't a magic bullet that will guarantee your WAS will return, there are things proven to destroy those chances. Sandi is sharing some of those things in this thread and with the rules condensed from DB/DR. And while these don't guarantee a WAS will return, it will help you grow stronger as a person, lead a better life, and be the best person you can be. Ultimately that's all you can do to set yourself up for a healthy R in the future.
For it to get your WAS back she has to notice, believe those changes, AND be willing to do some work herself. Sadly that is up to her. But that IS the best thing you can do for yourself and your R.
Understood Zues. Thank you. I think I just get myself in trouble when I ask questions. I have problems reading things sometimes. I think I should read some posts a couple times before I post. This is why I struggled in school so much. I also get confused real easy.
Sandi, I was reading through Ben2010's posts and I saw something you posted there.
Originally Posted By: sandi2
If it helps, I was very torn and confused. I changed my mind a thousand times a day. Now what may seem odd is that it was not my LBH that talked me into staying in the M. Remember, he could do nothing right, in my eyes. It was, however, total strangers who got my attention and told me the truth of what was happening to me.....and what was needed to get through the mess I was in.
If you don't mind me asking what total strangers? Here from the board?
Miman2, yes, the strangers were those board members who talked really straight to me. Thankfully, I had some wise people coaching me. I will forever be grateful they came to the rescue of a WW.
Joe, I hope you read Wonka's post.
I believe what triggered my wife to start acting this way was when her youngest son from her first marriage graduated
Triggered is a good word, b/c I doubt that her son's graduation was the cause of her waywardness. My personal experience would take too long to give much details b/c it had been building for years. However, I will try to briefly give you a picture.
We had had bedroom problems for a long time due to my lack of atgraction for my H.......which was caused by others issues outside the bedroom. I prayed for years that God would help me have sexual desire for my H. I would talk to my H about my needs until I was blue in the face. He never got it. I felt the reason we didn't have enough sex was my fault. Anyway, at some point, I felt my prayers were being answered, or else b/c I was applying more effort. The ironic part was just as I was enjoying sex and looking forward to being intimate with my H (instead of dreading it), he suddenly pulls back. He gets this idea that I am just doing it for him........or something. He would never really tell me. I knew in the past he felt rejected many times, but here I was finally able to be the sexual partner he had always wanted....and he stops cold turkey. So then my pride really kicked in. We stubbornly waited on the other one to initiate. Both egos were beaten down.
In the meantime, we had gone through extremely tough times with our grown D. I can't go into all of it b/c it's too long. She had a serious disease, was divorce and had a child. We were struggling to pay our bills and my H wasn't working like I thought he should. What seem to be my trigger was when our D was in an accident that would takes weeks to recover. She and her teenage son had to stay with us, in a very cramped little house. The stress was working overtime on me, and to escape for a few hours every night. I would go online to play games. You know those games where another person can be your opponent, and on yeah.......you can instant message while you play. At first whenever someone would say anything flirty I would shut it down immediately. Anyway, there was this one man who was really nice and didn't do any of the flirting, etc. He was very funny and I would enjoy spending that time with him b/c he made me laugh and forget my problems for a while.
What I did not realize was that I was developing an emotional attacment to him. He made me feel good. Anyway, long story shorter, it ended abruptly and I found myself searching for someone else that could make me feel better. I won't go into the sorted detailed b/c it is embarrassing. Let's just say that for the first time in my life, I was being the bad girl, and found it exciting. I eventually ended up on a dating site. I had become addicted to the thrill. That is how I met another man and that led to having an Internet A.
And that is why I could see what was happening to your W, Joe.
You see, for years I tried to hold down the resentment in my heart. It started right after we were M and my H would not make me priority over his family, especially his mother. He would stand up for me, and that really affected my desire for him.......which led to other problems. I also lost respect for him, and that led to even
more issues. Neither of us were getting our needs met from the other one. Remember, I am talking about decades, b/c our children were grown when I finally crossed the line. So many other things were involved, but there's not enough space or time to tell it. You might say I was being "conditioned" to eventually put my emotions into the driver seat and go wherever they led.
It doesn't take years for all women, of course. That is just
my story. We read stories on the board how some couples are M just a couple of years, or less, when an A or wayward behavior Is discovered. Every woman is an individual with a different character.
I would dare say that more was going on with your W than just being depressed over her son graduating. Especially when she still has little children at home. Makes no sense, does it? She withdrew from the entire family, not just you. Maybe you never discovered what else was happening, but I'll bet it was much more complicated than you know.
Listen Joe, my H discovered my Internet activity. He first tried the loving approach. I could not even look at him. I cried my eyes out. Not out of remorse, Joe, but from being caught. I was guilty as sin! He gave me a chance, even though I never apologized or agreed I'd never do it again, he just assumed. I continued with my activity, just much more carefully. The next confrontation was not quite so lovingly. My inner rebellion rose up and I thought, "Just watch me!". So, I continued by taking my A deeper "underground". The third confrontation, all sh't hit the fan! Guess what I did? Took it even deeper.
You cannot sit her down and have a loving discussion to work this out. She is rebellious. She will defy you. Have you ever had to deal with rebellious teenagers or young adults? I mean those who are he11 bent on doing what they want to do and you won't stand in their way? That is exactly how the WW is, only worse. MC won't work right now. You have to take a tough stand, let her go, and move on with your life. You aren't doing it. You are allowing her to stay in her room and continue doing the phone sex. You ignoring her and/or what she's doing doesn't work if you gave a boundary about it. You are trying to find excuses to cover yourself, like saying you like having your own bedroom, etc. That is pure BS! You are scared of the tough love it will take for her to realize you mean what you said.
If you want to live under those conditions, so be it. I am not trying to bully you to do something you don't want to do. Just don't set boundaries and then make excuses to cover your lack of action.
Just for future reference, I came to this forum for help with my marriage. And hopefully some others to talk to because it is very hard going through all this alone. I came here for support and I also thought I would get some help from people who have been through this. I came here to learn about myself and to get advice from people that know. Some of us might be a little slower than others. Yes, I ask alot of questions. I want to learn. I want to do the right thing. It does not help when there are replies that make me dumb for bringing up a topic. Or that I was stupid because I never noticed problems in my marriage. Sometimes the replies I get make me not want to post or ask questions. Maybe I am being misunderstood in what I am saying.
No, don't feel this way about it. All of us get frustrated at some point. I may say something too bluntly or even harshly, but I never intentionally direct it to a person's inability to learn. This stuff is hard, and it's sensitive. It hits you in the most tender area. The LBS comes here in shredded pieces, and I don't know how they grasp anything!
Asking questions is good. As long as you are taking the time to search for the answers. Last night I was the one frustrated b/c I thought I had covered the issues you were questioning. Like I said, we all experience it. Don't feel as though anyone is attacking you, Joe. I truly don't believe that is anyone's intentions. Okay?
I guess I am confused on what my choices of action are now. What I do effects our kids. This is why I have been doing alot of thinking. She stated, in our argument after I switched me cell phone, "I am not leaving". So my only other choice is for me to leave. Than I look like I abandoned my kids. My actions lately have been to avoid her as much as I can. I spend alot of time in my room at night. I find other activities to keep busy. I have been getting more involved in things around town. If I tell her she has to leave, this will definitely be more of the same for me. The first years we were together, I would tell her that when we got in major arguments. It was wrong of me. But it was my way of controlling the argument. This is why I have been really considering leaving, but it is very frowned upon here. Plus I know it would give her ammunition. She will tell the kids that I left them. I can't stand to be away from my kids. Don't know what to do:(
Don't leave your kids behind. Can't you take them with you? You said she was pretty much neglecting them, so they need you more than ever.
In the meantime, conduct yourself as though you have separated emotionally from her and this inappropriate job. Otherwise, it will appear as if you condone it. However, I don't think you should be the one isolated in your room. At times, you may need to go there, to regain control over emotions, or whatever. Spend time with the kids after dinner, helpIng with homework or playing with them. You can be their bright spot of the day.
You can separate the bills so that she is responsible for half. Get your name off any crdit cards or accounts she uses. Also, separating your bank accounts, etc. Some men even have to protect their savings and retirement fund, or their kids'' college fund.
What I am saying, Joe, is if you just cannot take the kids and leave at this time, then do everything possible to show her you are enforcing your boundary of not accepting an open M, if that is what you told her.
Protect your little kids as best you can. Her son may start to ask questions, and you should not have to lie to cover what she's doing. But that is my opinion and some will not agree. That is something you have to decide.
Let me encourage everyone to make sure you delete your computer history, if you don't want your posts on the board discovered by your S, or a family member.
and, if you don't mind me butting in, paraphrase letters, conversations and text messages when writing them here!
a google search of word-for-word letters or text messages etc. can bring someone right to your thread
I also slightly alter some info just in case the W finds this site. However, if you've been reading my sitch my W would probably figure it out after reading a few of my posts.
Sandi, this is exactly what I have been doing for the past couple weeks. Everything is separated as far as bills. I take care of the kids as soon as I get home and on the weekends. She eats dinner then goes to her room. I have detached emotionally. We really don't talk much at all. I have just been doing my own thing. Once my truck is back, it will be much easier to take the kids and head to town and do fun things with them. I guess I go to my room some because I can get on here in private. Plus my kids like watching cartoons on the other tv. I have started moving on with my life. She can either stop what she is doing and WORK on joining me, or not. It is her choice.
Sandi, I have a question for you.
I am reading your original threads. Frankly I am very impressed with who you are and what you've done. Yes, you were a WW. But you came to these boards, got help, and seem to have done the work needed to restore your M. I haven't gotten through them all so maybe there were some serious backslides. But honestly I think you are in the minority of WWs.
What struck me is that even while you were in your WW state, you seemed to understand it was a fog or an addiction. You were battling with what you felt and what you knew to be right. You were trying hard to steer towards loving your H again.
Do you think most WW's are aware of this? Or do you think they are trying hard not to look at it so they don't even realize how foggish they are?
I guess it doesn't much matter. I'm just going through a tough time. It's sad. Whatever the reason it's sad. But I do appreciate you linking your thread, more than anything you could paraphrase it's inspiring to see what you went through. I know I'm humbled about my failures as an H seeing how hurt you'd been by the disconnection over the years. I am just sad that your M is such an exception to the vast majority that cause too much damage and don't come out of the fog until it's far too late.
That means a lot, Zues, thanks. I had just the right people giving me the information I needed.
Do you think most WW's are aware of this? Or do you think they are trying hard not to look at it so they don't even realize how foggish they are?
I am not Sandi but, I think that closer to the beginning and middle they are less aware, later on as the fog starts to slightly clear they are more likely to see what has happened.
And of course Sandi's case might have been different than what I have learned.
Joe- you're making the faulty assumption that there is a "winning play" you can make that will bring your W back, and quickly at that. So by that rationale anything that doesn't immediately get her to come back to you isn't working.
Bad news. You can't control her. There is nothing on ANY forum that can change her mind. That is up to her.
That's a hard reality. Many people try DBing as a form of control, trying to do anything and everything to try to keep control of their relationship. That doesn't work. It just keeps them from detaching as they interpret every mood of their WAS as a sign of working or not working.
But while there isn't a magic bullet that will guarantee your WAS will return, there are things proven to destroy those chances. Sandi is sharing some of those things in this thread and with the rules condensed from DB/DR. And while these don't guarantee a WAS will return, it will help you grow stronger as a person, lead a better life, and be the best person you can be. Ultimately that's all you can do to set yourself up for a healthy R in the future.
For it to get your WAS back she has to notice, believe those changes, AND be willing to do some work herself. Sadly that is up to her. But that IS the best thing you can do for yourself and your R.
Perfectly stated, Zues.
Starsky
What struck me is that even while you were in your WW state, you seemed to understand it was a fog or an addiction. You were battling with what you felt and what you knew to be right. You were trying hard to steer towards loving your H again.
Do you think most WW's are aware of this? Or do you think they are trying hard not to look at it so they don't even realize how foggish they are?
Interesting question, and I'm not sure that I can give a qualified answer. For me, I didn't have the terminology or information related to these issues. I had read books for years on MR's, but not on this particular subject. Cadet gave a very good answer, and I would say that my fog had cleared just enough for me to reach out to this board for advice.
In my own case, timing played a vital role. After all this time, some of the details may get a little fuzzy, but I can look back and see how things came together to have its final and fullest impact to clear the fog. For example, I thought I could make my grown children believe their Dad was the bad guy, and I wa considering leaving the M for
that reason. Well that idea was totally busted when my daughter told me she had known about OM for weeks.....and had read most of the computer history between me and the OM!! I was mortified! I couldn't blame anyone but myself b/c in my fogged out state, I had left the computer monitor open. Other things had been happening beforehand with the OM that was causing me some doubt about him, but I tried to make excuses. Combined with little things here & there with the information I was getting, being busted by my own carelessness and knowing "I" had destroyed the respect of my family was my personal "loss" that cracked the barrier, so to speak. It was at that moment the last of the fog lifted and consequences of my actions slapped me very hard in the face.
Maybe for other women, it happens all at once, IDK. Can't remember reading such a case. I do believe there can be a certain shock value to her awakening. The problem for a lot of newcomers is getting focused on what to do to shock the WW back, and it doesn't work well for them.
Sometimes, I think
maybe I was somewhat an exception to what we usually hear. However, the main exception was my coming here to the board. Everything else was pretty much the same as other WW's.
Wish I could give you a more direct answer to your question.
The problem for a lot of newcomers is getting focused on what to do to shock the WW back, and it doesn't work well for them.
Just a couple of points about this.
Someone can do everything "right" and it wont shock them back.
Someone else can do everything "wrong" and they come back.
The changes we make need to be for us and need to be real, not to fool them or trick them back.
That wont work.
DETACH and basic DB is really the best path.
The fog I beleive will render them without memory later on.
As Sandi said above she does not even remember things that happened.
Think more like a woman in childbirth does not remember the pain of it when it is over, only the joy of the child.
The brain works that way to protect us from bad things.
Hope that helps.
Zeus, I don't think I answered your question about me seeming to struggle with what I knew was right and what what I was feeling. This is absolutely true! But during the first part, when the fog was at it's worst, most of what I knew was
right took a back seat to what I
wanted to feel. And of course, like all WW's, I would try to justify my reasons.
I had been the "good" girl growing up. I had been the respecful daughter and the
proper Christian W. But then I ventured into this new realm, at least for me it was new. I had never gone through that part of growing up where I sowed wild seeds, like some people may experience. I am not saying it is a necessary part of transitioning into adulthood, I'm just saying that I lived the way I was expected.......and according to my religious beliefs. The one thing I protected and clung to was my clean reputation and respect of others in the Chrisian community. Sounds pretty ironic, doesn't it? I think that is why losing that place in the eyes of my adult children was what it took to finally shake me to the core and lift that bit of fog.
I had continued to attend church during the entire span of my wayward actions. Undoubtly the spiritual was conflicted with the physical. But even taking the religious or spiritual part away from all of this, anyone who believes in a strict moral code in daily living surely feels conflicted when they violate that code. Maybe not as deeply as when it is a spiritual/religious matter......IDK. You might compare it to how one views their wedding vows. Like Starsky talks about core values, and how we base decisions on those values. Do we act based only on what we know to be "right"? If so, then any emotions that run
contrary must not be allowed to rule our decisions. Sounds all rather cold and technically, doesn't it? But it was how I was taught to deal with temptations that could ruin a person's life. Up until 2006, it worked well for me.......at least in controlling my outward behavior. For many, many years my heart was turning wayward. I allowed my feelings to get behind the steering wheel.
Humans are emotional creatures, especially when we react to pain. I have watched people who have had to live in constant, agonizing pain. It can do terrible things to change that person. But this is getting a little away from answering your question.
you seemed to understand it was a fog or an addiction.
You know, even my H told me it was an addiction, but I did not want to hear anything from him. Partly b/c I wanted to believe the fantasy, which I managed to do for quite a while. It was when I came to the board and it was explained about the PEA, etc., that I began seeing it for what it really was.
I
did recognize I needed guidance. I knew I was on the edge of making a life-changing decision, and basically that was my reason for reaching out. I had considered talking to someone in person, but I wasn't ready for my "secret" to get out, and living in a small town where we know almost everyone....i was still trying to shield my reputation Until I began getting this information, I was just as confused about my feelings, and being just as selfish as any other WW. Plus, I quickly learned that accepting the information as truth was the easy part. My willingness to do what needed to be done, was altogether a different matter. It had a battle with my rebellious heart, let me tell ya!
Thanks Cadet, you are so right.
Sandi, I have brought this addiction up to my wife on several occasions in the past before I came here and learned that I was wasting my time trying to talk to her. I even sat down very nice and told her that I can understand how taking those calls can feed her ego and make her feel good. Of course, I got the " that has nothing to do with it and I don't feel anything from those calls". I have heard several different reasons for her to justify why she still took the calls. The story changed each time. We also live in a small town where everyone knows everybody else. I hear the comments, your W never goes out anymore. Never comes to the games. We hardly see her anymore. She hears it also. Her justification for what she is doing is "she is providing for her children". Sorry I pay all the bills. She was buying groceries. Even that has slowed down now. She buys just enough for a few meals. She pays for the phone/internet and her cell phone.
I would like to address something that could possibly be unclear for some newcomers who have a WW. Even though I can't always explain the complexity of a woman......much less a WW, I think it helps, maybe, for the LBH to understand the reasoning
behind a couple of avice tips we give on the board.
One tip is telling the LBH that he should not leave the master bedroom, and if she has a problem with it.....she should be the one to move out of the bedroom, and also the marital home. Personally, I believe there can exceptions to the house, but I'll, get to it momentarily.
The H needs to remember he is not dealing with the woman he has known as his lifelong partner. He is dealing with her wayward mindset. Although he may be limited, he can at least try to enforce a few things in the name of "respect". She no longer respects him as a man, as her H, as the father of her children........not to mention the leader, provider, protector, and I personally believe as head of the home. Not saying that any of those roles give him rights to mistreat or abuse it any way.
The WW will constantly test the H with her disrespect. She actually expects him to be the one to leave the BR, b/c after all, he's the rugged man, who can sleep the ground and allow her feminine lsoft body the luxuries of their comfy bed. Isn't that what's a gentleman should do? Let me say this nicely. He is a sucker if he falls for that one! His decision should not be based on the fact she is the woman and that is what men are suppose to do.....take the harder and give her the nicer. Instead, he should think of the stronger
message he will be giving her if he sticks his tail between his legs and says, "Yes dear, anything you say, dear" and takes his pillow to find a spot to lay down.
To me, the MBR is symbolic of their private union. That is the place they share their most intimate part of their M. Now she has brought another person into the M and she is saying she doesn't feel comfortable with you in the BR? She is the one who has defiled it. She broke her vows of "to thee and thee only" and wants to kick you out? Granted, some women have a softer approach, but I promise it all comes from the same source.....disrespect. She crowns herself with entitlement. Furthermore, if allowed, she will completely turn everything around to make herself appear justified, while making you appear to be the one responsible for this mess anyway.
If there are children in the home, it is even more important that the man establishes his "authority" (go easy on this word) and place of respect in the M, the family, and the home. This may goes against the grain for some folks who read this, and I hope my lack of word skills will not be taken to exceed the meaning I want you to see. If the man succumbs to his W's outward show of disrespect, he opens the floodgates for more serious problems. For him to measly accept her terms, in the name of keeping the peace.......or thinking he's preventing worse scenarios, is really giving out a strong message that it is fine to wipe manure on him b/c he has little value in the M, the family, and/or the home. He is stripped from his rank as leader and is demoted to a much lesser position, comparable in some cases to that of a servant. If you think I'm stretching it, then you have been around here long enough.
Maybe you think I am overdoing this a bit, but not really b/c the lack of her respect and the H's failure to get her respect, will ultimately leave the MR in ruins. This is true even when there is no issue of affairs, etc. Even if they stay together. If young men could just realize how the MR balances on respect. She has to have it in order to love him.
Remaining in the MBR is symbolic to comanding outward respect. (If this had been a guy writing, he could have summed the whole thing up in that one sentence.)
The same principle applys to who moves out of the home. Only, it gets more technical, I think. Back in my father's generation, it was mostly the man. That's just what men did......and maybe b/c the men were more likely to cheat, according to what we've read. Today, we live in a different society and just by looking at the majority of the threads that come and go here, the tables have dramatically turned. At least that's the way it appears to me. Ugh, I could get out on a whole other topic.
Anyway, as I told 3kids on his thread today, there are no die-hard BD rules about some of these actions. He wondered if he should help move out his WW's things left behind in the marital home that has been recently sold. They have been physically separated for a while now, with her living in a different house. His objective is to clear the house before new owners take procession. He asked what to do about helping her move these things b/c of the advice not to help the WW move out.
Each person has to look at the rationale and decide the best option to take. There will usually be something to crop up eventually in the stitch that could get the LBH completely off track. For example, the issue of who leaves the marital home. What is the right thing for the man to do and what is best for his children at that time? Does the house belong to him? If it is in her name only, or her family, it limits what he can do. What are the legal and/or the financial consequences of him moving out, etc. I sure don't have all the answers. I don't have the legal knowledge nor the personal experience in those areas. I just encourage everyone who may be faced with this matter of who leaves the home, to get legal advice before acting out of emotions......or advice from on the board.
These two tips that are often passed around may need the explanation that it is never meant to be vindictive. In fact, none of the advice should have vindictive purposes.
Sorry, I have rambled on and on.......once again.
Sandi,
I am not a guy, but I can shoot with the best of 'em!
Remaining in the MBR is symbolic to comanding outward respect. (If this had been a guy writing, he could have summed the whole thing up in that one sentence.)
Here is a short sentence for you to chew on LBHs....
Frankly, I don't give a damn! Rhett really threw out Scarlet a few times...and look how she went back to him?! Because he didn't take chit from her.
Capisce?
Sandi,
I am not a guy, but I can shoot with the best of 'em!
I bet you can, too!
Originally Posted By: sandi2
Remaining in the MBR is symbolic to comanding outward respect. (If this had been a guy writing, he could have summed the whole thing up in that one sentence.)
Here is a short sentence for you to chew on LBHs....
Frankly, I don't give a damn!
Rhett really threw out Scarlet a few times...and look how she went back to him?! Because he didn't take chit from her.
Capisce?
Love it! There for a while I was referencing to Rhett Butler quite often. He is still one of my favorite characters.
Sandi, an excellent post - as usual.
I am still in marital BR with my WW (separate beds). I think I missed an opportunity after BD#2 in July: My W went to sleep on the sofa and I actually told her not too, because she always plays the martyr and I did not want her to do so again, and make me look like the villain to our children in the process. This was obviously before I found this site and began DB. Had I known, I probably would have encouraged her to remain out of our BR.
I know she is still seeing the OM and I know they were in our house together when I went away with the kids (I had her followed a few months ago), but I feel like the time to ask her to move out of marital BR has passed. I have been counseled by others(Ahoy, I think) in my previous thread to set a boundary and ask W to move out of BR. I have demurred because 1) I still don't want to be the villain; 2) I will miss out on the children: they often come to her bed in the middle of the night, but they spill into mine; 3) I worry that I am only doing it to be vindictive - which, as you mentioned, is never a good reason; and 4) I wonder whether could she use this action against me in mediation/divorce proceedings.
I have been focusing on detaching and I no longer confront her about her wayward behavior. So right now she has no boundaries that I can think of, and probably has no reason to respect me. I do not think I am doing a very good job of shocking her out of the fog.
Can you weigh in on whether I should still try to have her move out of the bedroom? Of course, there may be other mitigating factors that are specific to my sitch, but is there a specific time after which it is too late to set such a boundary? Is it still worth it? Is there any chance it would improve my sitch.
RAI
I'm not sure if it's the right forum, but I have a longstanding question about a tenet of DR.
It's about "script".
I often read on here that a WAS is following a "script". I understand what it means: almost all WAS follow similar steps and say similar things. I agree.
What I don't understand is why it diminishes those WAS words in any way. The word "script" is often used to reassure the LBS, as if these words are not really heartfelt by the WAS. The WAS are living a fairly widespread experience and humans tend to live them in similar fashion. We all follow a "script" when we stress out about college admissions, fall in love with our future spouse, have a baby, visit Paris, etc. It does not make the experience any less real. In fact, I would venture to say (and I've actually seen this idea somewhere here) that the LBS also follow their own script. There is the begging, crying and pleading of the beginning, then there is the anger, the acceptance, etc. Can the WAS look at us and say "Oh, it's all script anyway" as if they can dismiss it?
So when we say the WAS follows a "script", what is that supposed to mean to the LBS?
"So when we say the WAS follows a "script", what is that supposed to mean to the LBS?"
It's not supposed to "mean" anything. It's to explain the "sudden" change in mood and attitude that the WAS goes through. There's no other way to explain the irrational way that they are acting.
We've all heard versions of the "script". The key is to be able to determine which parts are BS and which parts are the REAL reason why the WAS left in the first place. Many times they don't even know themselves.
RAI, it is not a requirement to have separate bedrooms. I was referring to the reason we tell men not to be the one who leaves the MBR if his WW doesn't want to share a room and tries to get him to be the one to leave. I wanted to point out the purpose behind the man staying in the MBR.
Many WW's want the H to leave the BR, but some never say anything about it. It is strictly his decision if he insists she leaves the BR. I am not saying he should or shouldn't without knowing the specifics in the stitch.
Let me point out that none of this is to use as a shock technique. Men need to let that go.
RAI, It sounds as if you need to find confidence in yourself and in the purposes of the action taken. If she has absolutely no boundaries to honor, no consequences due to her behavior........and you fear taking any action will cause you to look bad, then I would guess you have demoted yourself and have accepted a passive, powerless position in your M and in your family.
I understand you don't want the children to see you as some villain. Right now, they are watching......and learning......and will use what they learn to apply in their own M some day. Isn't it more important to be the parent-teacher that demonstrates how a man carries himself during a like situation?
How will you deal with your children if, in the near future, they rebel against everything you thought had been instilled, and they defy you at every turn? A WW is very much like a rebellious, resentful, and disrespectful teenager.
What is your role? Are you the leader, or a passive buddy who doesn't want to rock the boat?
So when we say the WAS follows a "script", what is that supposed to mean to the LBS?
Well first, let me say that when we say it, we don't intend for it to sound like a flippant answer. And that we usually refer to a "verbal" script coming from the WAS.
In the beginning of his stitch, the LBH is in panic mode and when his W throws the usual WW statements at him......it scares him b/c he believe every word that comes out of her mouth. He is not aware this is almost protocol for her. He doesn't realize almost every WW has said practically the same words to her H. We are informing him that all she is saying is common and for him not to react out of fear but to get a grip and focus on what he needs to do.......instead of being slain by her words.
It usually surprises newcomers to read other threads and see another man's W saying almost word for word his own W said. Some men have said, "Wow, it really is like they all read from the same script".
I don't think the intentions are for the LBH to find comfort in hearing it is all script. Nor does it necessarily diminish those words she spoke. Telling him it is script is simply more information, such as the 37 rules, the boundary examples, detaching, etc.
The point here is not whether or not it is heartfelt by the WW. The degree of emotions or her sincerity does not change the fact that she is still saying the same stuff as every other WW has said. A person can be sincere, but be sincerely wrong.
So when we say the WAS follows a "script", what is that supposed to mean to the LBS?
It is suppose to mean
"TRUST THE PROCESS"
because they are following the script.
When I first arrived on the board, I was a WW who had the resentment, disrespect, rebellion......and defensiveness. I went head to head with some who hit me with the truth that I was completely responsible for my A. Naturally, I wanted to blame my H. "If he had responded to my emotional needs, I would not have been vulnerable to someone else". I think I actually said something very similar to that statement.
It may be in just a few of the threads I read, IDK, but is there some blame shifting taking place in the thinking of newcomer LBH'S? Recently, it seems we are seeing the LBH accepting all the blame for the actions of his WW. It concerns me for several reasons, but I will try to wait to post it later, and give you a chance to express your thoughts.
Many of us have tried to explain that the H may have had a part in the breakdown of the MR, b/c they usually do, and some have a bigger part than others. Some men have no clue as to what they could have done to cause such an affect on her unhappiness to lead to an A. Part of the early information we give the newcomer is to help them look at themselves, dig deep and see the areas that were weak and needs work. I believe the LBS and/or the WAS who comes to the board, needs to go through the deep self-examination.
After the self-examination, we usually see that newcomer hit wit guilt, sadness, anger at themselves, etc. Some of them become very empathic toward their WAS. They want to write letters of apology or do something to show her his sorrow and regret. Even if we tell him it won't fix things, he has such a need to make it right with her. He wants her to know that he finally sees what she put up with all that time.
Since this thread is about WW's, I want to keep the central thought in that direction. It is good for a man to see where he failed, in order to make corrections and improvements. It is good for him to empathize with his W. It is good that he can own his part of the breakdown in the M. I personally believe it may even be necessary in some cases, to prevent self-righteousness. We all make mistakes in M, but some have serious, devasting results.
No matter the role, I hope everyone here agrees that each adult is responsible for the actions they choose from a free will. A woman puts her wayward heart into action, and willingly goes against her H and/or what is "right" and she is completely responsible for those actions.
I also hope newcomer H's will be able to see that he shares part of the breakdown. Maybe he is responsible for how she felt at times in the M, but it's still up to her as to how she deals with her feelings. It was her choice to cling to the hurt or anger and let it grow into a deep resentment. Maybe he didn't even know how she felt. Maybe she never explained in a way that got his attention. Her emotional needs were not completely met.......his needs were not completely met, and they just tried to make the best of things......or so he thought.
Then one day maybe some guy at work winks at her and it makes her feel good, so she responds in some flirty way. It's just all in fun, right? But over time, one little thing leads to another, b/c her ego is being fed and it feels good. She tells herself it means nothing and she has done nothing wrong. The guy gives her compliments, or seems very interested in what she says or the work she does.......whatever, he pays special attention to her, making her feel sexy, or beautiful, or important. The whole experience is lifting her self-confidence as a woman. She begins looking forward to seeing him on the job b/c she feels excited and alive. Let me stop and ask you, is her H responsible thus far?
As her feelings grow into an emotional affair, is the H responsible? As the contacts and time spent with her coworker expands and the EA eventually turns physical, is the H responsible?
Instead of me continuing to just give my comments, I welcome anyone who would like to join in and give thoughts along this subject, b/c do we have a few newcomers who need some guidance here.
Hi Sandi - very interesting. I've responded to at least one poster with a similar query about responsibility.
One of the things I have struggled with in our sitch is that my H didn't 'fall' into an A in the way you describe. He decided to start 'dating' whilst working away. He then went out for drinks with two women who had previously been attracted to him. And then had an A with another close colleague/friend who already had a partner. I've struggled with the deliberateness of all this.
I have really had to reflect on my lack of awareness of his unhappiness and our inability to communicate about it. He has acknowledged that he let small problems build into big things and that he sent out 'weak signals' about his own unhappiness. He also said that he put his own needs last and this became unsustainable. Months after his A began, he was still telling me out M was 'perfect' even though I had found evidence of an EA.
I'm not downplaying my role in things. I can see that I missed signals about his unhappiness and that our love life had become routine rather than exciting. I put a lot of things down to work stress, because he wasn't saying anything about 'us.' That whole aspect I find really difficult and next time around, I would make sure that deeper communication doesn't get lost through general business and 'life,'
Just my thoughts anyway - and obviously this is a WAH not a WAW!
Thank-you Sandi,
This couldn't have come at a better time for me. *hugs*
I'm currently going through this self-examination on the advice of my DB coach, and it does get quite depressing. I am willing to own up to my part in the breakdown of the M, and take the time and steps necessary to 'fix' me. I even started to feel a little responsible for the A after such a look in the mirror. This reminder is just what I needed today.
Sandi, your comments are like gold dust so please don't stop. You post some of the most insightful comments on the whole board. Your last few paragraphs saying that although LBH may have had some part in the R breakdown but ultimately it is the WW who is responsible for her actions certainly ring true.
I have noticed on my thread people saying it is all script. I get what they mean, it's par for the course. You talk about sincerity. Of course a WW can be sincere in what she is saying. One of the rules is not to believe what she is saying, doing etc.
May I ask, at what point should one believe what they are being told? I ask because isn't there the chance that although it has been said many times before by many WWs, a particular WW may be right, sincere, and determined in her speech and subsequent actions.
Are there any points when the script becomes reality in your experience here, and how would one know when that moment has occurred?
Do you know at what point this 'script' will be discarded and 'normal thought' might be resumed. I'm sure there is not an average time, so does it need to be a crisis moment or some other point?
Your description of how a EA with co-worker becomes a PA described my WW's situation to a 'T'. If everything is all part of a process, as has been mentioned in the post between yours, what is the next step in the process once it has been established that the WW is following a script?
I hope I haven't asked too many questions. I've tried to keep things general so that any answers help as many LBH's such as me.
On a personal note (more in my threads) WW has rented a new place, has the kids, wants to sell our house, and ultimately at some point wants to D. She mentoins fresh start, clean break, ILYBINILWY, marriage was a mistake, not happy in years, and is adamant she is done with our R. All seems to follow 'the script'.
I know each situation is different but given the overall similarity of what a WW says is there an flip side script that LBH may follow in turning things around?
EDIT: to answer myself, I guess DB'ing is a general answer here. However incredibly good and useful that is in general, it is also 'made to fit' each sitch. One thing I struggle with is exactly what, where, and when to apply elements of DB/DR.
Sandi, we've talked many times about this, but I'm still having trouble getting my head around it. I'm posting here instead of my thread so it'll benefit more people.
What are your thoughts on a WW who is no longer in an A? My W cut off her A three months ago; she'll be the first to admit that OM is still in her head too much, but I'm confident she's pulling her weight on NC.
But she's still wayward; she can be verbally disrespectful, openly worrying about her dating prospects, asking why men don't want her (when I'm sitting right there). A lot of the time she can discuss rationally, and we can talk openly about what led us here to our current situation. I was treated to a 36-hour spew session last week, where absolutely everything that was wrong was all my fault. When she finally came down I said that we needed to S. I can't make that happen quite yet but it's still on the table.
That triggered an immediate turnaround in her behavior. The spew stopped. This week she has (IMHO) made a more concerted effort to live "as if". OM is in town and I haven't heard a peep out of her about him, which I know is an attempt on her part to get him back in the "friend zone" and get him back to the place he was before, when he was just another regular guest.
I roll my eyes at the friend zone thing but I won't micromanage how she handles things, as long as she sticks to boundaries.
She's asked several times in the last few days how I feel about her and us. I've said that I hope we can work things out, but I'm no longer as convinced as I was that it's possible, which is true. What I've tried to convey to her is that I only want to be married to someone who wants to be my W 100%. 100% committed, 100% faithful, 100% intimate.
On balance I'd say she's trying, but there's still a lot to work through. There hasn't been any sex for a while, but I've stopped trying to initiate or even mention it. I'm prepared to turn her down if and when she attempts to initiate. That'll be a 180 for sure!
I guess I'm not sure how to modulate behavior towards her now that I feel like she's putting in some effort. I don't want to let her back too easy, but I'm not sure that full on detach, Stockdale, GAL, moving on mode is really appropriate here anymore.
I'm so glad you brought up this type of stitch, Toots. I could see how it would be difficult for the LBS, especially when they thought they were doing a pretty good job in their role as a mate.
I have seen (outward observations, obviously) what I considered to be wonderful people, who seemed truly devoted to their H/W in every way, yet they had cheating spouses. Of course, I could not see behind doors, so nobody really knows except the couple themselves.
In reading your post, I remembered one of the first truths that was extremely hard for me to accept, as the WW. That being, my H was not responsible for my happiness. It would take too long to explain, and it makes me look ignorant......and maybe I was, but I think I believed we were responsible for making the S happy. So, that thinking fueled my resentment. I don't mean that I didn't have enough sense to help myself do something about it, but I had always heard that a couple was suppose to make each other happy. Apparently, I took it way out of context.
Not to use this as a cop-out, but back in my growing up years (you know....Leave it to Beaver days) girls were actually taught they were suppose make their H happy and vise versa. Then, of course, the first disagreement my H & I had, I wasn't equipped with the proper skills to deal with it very well (considering I was eighteen).
We see all the time how actions of one spouse can make the other spouse very unhappy. Are we responsible for making them unhappy?
I don't really believe it is quite as cut and dried as some make it sound, so could be interesting to hear others comment.
In keeping with the subject of who is responsible for what, in the MR, what do you all believe? If we can affect the feelings of our S, are we responsible? If not, why? If so, why, and where do you draw the line?
Wow, great question.
Like Toots, I don't want to downplay my role in our failed M. I missed (or didn't take seriously) signs W wasn't happy over the years. But despite her unhappiness in the M, she always said our family was the most important thing in the world to her (she came from a broken home). We had so much fun as a family and we we're both pretty excited (I thought) about planning our 15 yr anniversary vacation (she had pages of notes, costs, flights, etc) when she BD'd me. So there was plenty of happiness as a family, but apparently not as much as a couple.
Anyway, I think in my sitch, my W did look to me for her happiness (or unhappiness). To be honest, I looked to her for mine as well. It's not til now, that it's really hit home that we are responsible for our own happiness/feelings. We got married very young and didn't have the proper skills either. However, I do think we are responsible for SUPPORT (emotional, verbal, etc), which in turn contributes heavily to our partner's happiness/unhappiness. At this point I can only envision what my future R(s) would look like, but I see myself being so much more supportive- listening, showing empathy, celebrating achievements...as opposed to 'my day was worse than your day' type comparisons. I know I lacked that skill and as I look back, I think that was the biggest aspect of our M that was missing. If support had been there (from both of us), I think it would have led to more of an emotional connection (=increased happiness).
Sandi, this is such a great thread. I agree, there is a gray area in terms of responsibility for unhappiness. Ultimately, we are each responsible for our own happiness, but in a MR we each have needs/wants that our S should at least try to fulfill. My H had an affair. I am not responsible for his decision to enter into the A. I am responsible for neglecting his needs in the M prior to that. I am not fully responsible for the breakdown of the M though. We both own a portion.
It seems like most breakdowns start from having too many expectations of the other person, thinking all of our needs should be fulfilled within the MR, and not appreciating the efforts the S does put forth. I know in my case, prior to the A, we were both angry about what the other person wasn't doing. But neither one of us was clear about what we expected or needed. Now we are clear. We also tell each other what we do appreciate and are generally much kinder to one another.
However, I do think we are responsible for SUPPORT (emotional, verbal, etc), which in turn contributes heavily to our partner's happiness/unhappiness.
I totally agree with this.
Thanks, Burger, it is great to know this thread is helpful.
And you too, Alpha. I hope you read my response to Mozza earlier about the "script".
May I ask, at what point should one believe what they are being told? I ask because isn't there the chance that although it has been said many times before by many WWs, a particular WW may be right, sincere, and determined in her speech and subsequent actions.
Oh I'm sure there are some things said out of sincerity at that moment, b/c her emotions are leading her all the way. She can be sincerely wrong! She may even be determined, in her WW mindset. She may see it as "right" in her viewpoint. However, bear in mind, she is not being logical/reasonable; she has an extorted viewpoint; she is creating a fantasy; she needs to feel justified; and, she needs you to take the fall for the breakup. However, none of it makes it
truth. You have to stay balanced enough that you are able to distinguish what are her emotions talking and what is real truth.
Do you know what is the real truth in your marital history? B/c you cannot measure it by what she says. She may give little pieces here and there, but mostly her accounts are stretched to the outrageous. The H is so shocked and hurt by her words (script) and many simple take it as truth b/c he has had to reason to doubt her before now. She does sound sincere! She does sound determine!
So, you go through the painful self examination and see there is just cause for some feelings she has, and b/c of your own feelings (discussed in my last post) it would be easy for you to believe every word out of her mouth. At the least, you begin to doubt what you knew as true about the MR you had. Am I close?
Just b/c someone else has said the same words does cause it to be a lie. Script does not necessarily mean lies, it just means what she is saying.....when she says it....and the way she says it is extremely common with the WW. Take that fact into consideration.
How do you know at what point you can believe what she tells you? I am not sure in which context you meant, so I will assume you mean as what she says regarding to her plans for the future, b/c the past is in the past and you have a good idea what is true about it. The present and what she speaks of being the future should be based on her actions, behavior and attitude lining up with her words.
For example, If you have a W who
says she wants back in the M.........yet she is uncooperative in doing what it takes to reconcile, and her bad attitude is obvious, and she continue with bad behavior........ then be assured, you cannot believe her words.
If you have read what I posted about a process the WW goes through, perhaps you will understand you really cannot place your complete trust in her words. Her actions, behavior, and attitude tells the real truth.
Have I even come close to answering your question?
Guilt is huge. I know all too well the things I did that helped set the stage for my current sitch. I was NOT the husband she needed a lot of the time. Classic case of self-centeredness and immaturity on my part. I've made no bones about the fact that I went straight from home to college to marriage without really ever growing up.
Her spew is often peppered with truth. The truth would sting, and prevent me from taking the strong stands earlier that I should have.
Sandi, your point about paying more attention to her actions than her words was right on. It actually gives me some hope...my W still talks a negative game a lot of the time...feeling lost, disconnected, feeling unattracted to me, etc., but her actions tell me that she's trying to reconnect.
I can honestly say that I never once considered myself responsible for my wife's affair. I found it to be a selfish, cowardly and destructive decision on her part, my own contributions to the pre-affair dysfunction of our marriage notwithstanding.
I beat myself up for many things (like being too naive and stupid to see the warning signs initially), but being responsible for her decision to bed another man wasn't one of them.
Starsky
There's a difference between feeling guilty for setting the stage and feeling guilty for the affair, without a doubt. I draw a heavy line at her actions once she decided that getting with OM was a reasonable option. I'm not responsible for anything she did with OM....events leading up to that, yeah, I feel quite responsible for a lot of those. That's where I beat myself up too, having been too self-centered to see the disconnect happening... that started long before she even knew OM.
I see the line very clearly. W, not so much.
I felt that something was off for a couple of years, but I didn't have the words and, to be honest, I was too much of a nice guy to sit her down and try to clear the air. I even had an odd premonition the weekend before BD. She was out of town with some girlfriends, and the thought struck me out of the blue that she was going to have something serious to discuss with me when she got back. No clue what, just a feeling.
Thanks Starsky, I was hoping you would join in and give your perspective, since some of the LBH'S seem to be feeling they are responsible for their W's affair.
You know no matter what your transgressions were,
no matter how bad you messed up,
YOU did not cause the affair/infidelity!
I think most LBS's are codependent and tbh this is the
area that they need to work on the most.
Being told what to do and when to do it,
is not healthy behavior.
We are now adults and get to choose the life that we want to live.
It takes a long time to understand that.
You know no matter what your transgressions were,
no matter how bad you messed up,
YOU did not cause the affair/infidelity!
I think most LBS's are codependent and tbh this is the
area that they need to work on the most.
Being told what to do and when to do it,
is not healthy behavior.
We are now adults and get to choose the life that we want to live.
It takes a long time to understand that.
Amen to that! It's a lesson I'm learning very slowly. I never really believed I caused the A, but codependency has been a huge and paralyzing issue for me in the past. Still is, sometimes.
The other common mistake newly-bombed LBSs (usually LBHs) make is that they want to take any spin, spew or even truth from their wayward spouse into account, wrap it up with all of their own guilt, and then IMMEDIATELY set about to trying to "fix" the broken marriage.
IT DOESN'T WORK WHEN THEY ARE WAYWARD.
It takes PATIENCE, to continue to learn and grow and work on your own GAL, 180s and doing what you can to attract them back . . . knowing that you will have PLENTY (weeks, months, YEARS even) of time later, during the PIECING phase, to show her how you've changed.
You try and do it now, and it's going to come across as weakness and supplication, and that AIN'T attractive to her, and it'll kill YOUR self-esteem.
Starsky
There's a difference between feeling guilty for setting the stage and feeling guilty for the affair,
Exactly! Thanks, NH, for your input. I think it carries more weight for the men to hear this from other guys who have experienced the same ordeal with a WW.
Is it fair to say that any LBS could misplace some of the guilt they feel, to cause them to believe they are responsible for the WAS's affair (or other wayward behaviors)? From what I have seen in some threads, it seems this follows shortly after they do the deep self-examination. Perhaps it is a response to those feelings of guilt, and they don't see the lines clearly?
Sandi2 that's my very situation the wife owns the home, when she BD she moved upstairs with the kids so me in the MB was her choice , I've given her space and she's just used it to further develop her R with OM, I'm having a hard time making her fear any loss , want to practice tough love, but not sure how to without causing more problems and arguments (guess I should fear that things are already out of hand) would really appreciate it if you could read my post it has a back story and I'd really appreciate any advice you could lend to me, I'm new here but I've been glued to this thread about the WW for the last week thanks to cadet THANKS