Divorcebusting.com
Posted By: Barry Onwards and upwards. - 03/15/15 02:10 AM
Hi everyone. Welcome to my new thread. Stop by and say hello anytime.

I'm afraid if you're looking for a success story, this isn't it. (Look up Mozza's thread for those). I'm filing against WAW soon.
There is however some great advice from people in my previous threads, which if you're a newcomer may be useful.

Links to my previous threads.
Thread 1.
Thread 2.
Thread 3.
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So, why the new thread?

I've spoken with my W today. I've told her I'm moving on without her and that I don't want our break up to be any more devastating an event as it is already. I accept that our M is over, and although we can't be friends, we have to be able to communicate effectively if our D is to go smoothly and we need to maintain some sort of respect for the other for the kids sake.

We talked about the details of the settlement and generally cleared the air a little. We both apologised to the other for the letting this happen to our R. I told W that she'll always have a place in my heart, and that if she's ever in serious trouble or anyone hurts her - that I'll be there for her, but I don't want to be M to her any more. I deserve to love and be loved. So does she.

She told me I was a good person and she knows I'll find love again. She hopes I do and whoever it is with will be lucky to have me. She told me to not love anyone too much in the future. It's not fair on the OP, and not fair on myself to forget who I am and what I want.

There was a funny moment when we spoke of something, and we both knew in an instant and just by a look that it had triggered a memory of a long standing joke we'd had between us. We both laughed as we used to for the first time since BD.
It's those moments I'll miss, and I think W will too - I could see it in her eyes.

We hugged each other warmly but without love. It was the embrace of two people going on a long journey in the opposite direction of one another. My journey is a bit daunting but I'm already on the path, I just need to keep going.

Where W's journey leads I don't know. Bon Voyage though W, take care out there.
I doubt they will but maybe one day the winds of change may blow us closer together.
I'll leave a light on.

Onwards and upwards smile
Posted By: Barry Re: Onwards and upwards. - 03/15/15 11:27 AM
Feeling optimistic this morning.
It's like a weight has been lifted off my shoulders now I've made the choice not to torment myself any more. Life is for living and loving, that's my goal now.

It's Mothers Day in the UK today, so all my kids are going with STBXW to visit MIL for the day. SIL's x 2 and their kids are going too. I hope they all have a lovely day together. My STBXW called me this morning to say that S13 had stayed at a friends last night, hadn't got back home in time to go and she couldn't get him on the phone so could she leave him in my care (obviously no problem with this). It was strange on the phone though. Up until now, whenever I've heard her voice it's sparked off thoughts of her and my sitch that I then dwell on for hours. I didn't feel that way at all today. It's an interesting and welcome development for me.

Anyway, I must get on with cooking the dinner (Mums day off).
Posted By: Sotto Re: Onwards and upwards. - 03/15/15 11:50 AM
Hi Barry. Welcome to your new thread! You say that yours isn't a success story. And it may not be for your M. But I do think you have grown a great deal in recent months and that is nice to read. You sounded pretty stuck at the start of your sitch, and I really think you have moved forwards.

Interesting comment from your W that - not to love someone too much and lose part of yourself. That's definitely something to take forward into a potential new R. Although I appreciate that may not be uppermost in your mind right now.

Enjoy spoiling your Mum today! :-)
Posted By: Barry Re: Onwards and upwards. - 03/15/15 02:50 PM
Hi Toots, thank's - I'm glad I'm able to be here.

You're right. I more meant that it may not be what a hopeful newcomer is looking to read, but it IS my success story of how to survive this. As I say, there's some great advice and support in my previous threads, that may be of use to any aspiring nice guys.

STBXW is right in her advice to me. That's been the underlying issue in me for a long time and it's motivated my actions, words, and thoughts regarding my R with her. I was a H at a young age and I allowed myself to become so enmeshed with my W over many years, that she dominated every fibre of my being.

There's something I've never told the forum about before. I have a BD of my own to tell you all about.
One that set me on my path to being a Nice Guy for most of my adult life and it's part of the reason I'm here at all.

I'll post it on my previous thread later on as this one is about the future not the past.
Posted By: Barry Re: Onwards and upwards. - 03/15/15 09:07 PM
My Mum enjoyed her day today. Obviously I'm living with her and my Dad at the moment so I've got even more to thank her for this year.
I can't wait to get home now though. As much as I appreciate them letting me stay there, it's not helping my PMA. It hopefully won't be long now and I can get things moving on that front.

All 4 kids put messages on FB to W, each had a photo of them as a baby with her, and one with her now. The old ones bought back some really happy memories for me and the ones with W now are all so nice. One thing we've always agreed on is no matter our differences, we made great looking kids.
W looked beautiful too, less stressed after yesterday's talk. I'm glad.

Back to work tomorrow, lots to do. I need to make some calls about the finances too and get things going now. I'm back in the gym after work then seeing S13 in the evening. I'll be getting an early night tonight, I need to get my head back in the game and keep this optimism flourishing.

I'm determined to come through this a better person.

Barry.
Posted By: Barry Re: Onwards and upwards. - 03/16/15 06:12 PM
I've had a good day today. I'm glad I talked with STBXW on Saturday, it's really helped me. For the first time, I actually believe the words I'm saying.
I felt like a liar before, and worst of all, I was lying to myself.
It's totally ok to "fake it till you make it"...just don't forget that it's fake.

But I made, I'm here in the land of STBXH's and although I'm still hurting about the sitch, it's more a dull ache than a stabbing pain right now.
Don't get me wrong , I'm sure there'll be dark days ahead when the D starts but for now, I'm feeling much more positive about the future.

I spoke with the bank today and things might move fairly quickly now on the finance front, I have a meeting on Wednesday with them. The woman there is very keen to help me, and said she will do all she can to push things along.
(It doesn't hurt that she's extremely attractive and about my age lol).

I also called an online divorce company today to find out more about how they operate. Does anyone know anything about online divorces, or has anyone heard of any pitfalls or bad experiences? I could file for around 800 ($1200) total with them compare to thousands with solicitors. They seem to be credible from the reviews I've read, and they had all the answers to my many questions. I'd appreciate any thoughts on this from you guys.

Sorry, I know most people are here trying to bust or remedy their D's, I can't stop mine so the more I know about it the better.

I must go, just about to take D16 to dance, then off to the gym.
Meeting a friend after for an hour or so then an early night.

Take care all,

Barry.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: Onwards and upwards. - 03/16/15 10:19 PM
Barry


The only online divorces I saw were brought to me b/c they did NOT work. That was in the USA however.

When there are children and or real estate, I am hard pressed to see any advantage to an online divorce. YES I know they are cheaper but if you make a mistake on the title or in the agreement, there will be he11 to pay later and you sure won't save ANY money.

To ME, a divorce when there are children and real estate, is like surgery. I don't want an online version; I want a surgeon.

I'm a lawyer myself, but I didn't file on my own. I hired a divorce lawyer b/c I knew that "representing yourself means you have a fool for a client".

If there were NO property issues and NO children and all issues were agreed upon,

sure, then I'd probably get a "Do it yourself divorce." (In my practice I have seen ONE DIY divorce succeed. There were no kids and no real estate and the marriage was only about 2 years).

Otherwise, I think it's penny wise and pound foolish.

But I'm biased and I'm in the US. Maybe it's a whole lot different in the UK.

If you are certain that saving money is worth the increased risk, What would it cost to have a lawyer review whatever you and your wife write up?

Can you pay for a few hours of their time?
Posted By: Barry Re: Onwards and upwards. - 03/17/15 08:12 AM
Hi 25years. Thanks for stopping by again

Here's the thing. At the moment, we are agreeing on all aspects of the divorce. I'm coming out of it much better than W, but it's what she wants..it was her offer.

Neither of us can afford to pay the extortionate sums of money lawyers charge when divorcing in the UK, but you're right, it wouldn't hurt to get one to look at it to make sure it's all correct. It may cost around 500 at a guess (a couple of hours work for them).
It wouldn't be a "DIY" divorce as such, you do actually get a lawyer drawing up the documents, and it does help that we're in agreement about all the assets, children, debts etc.

I still need to check it out properly before I do anything of course. Ultimately, it's as you say....cost vs. risk.

The main reason I'm filing at all is because of the financial risk, so in that respect, I don't want there to be any at all.
That does increase the cost significantly though.
Posted By: Barry Re: Onwards and upwards. - 03/17/15 09:57 AM
W also had a bit of an issue with me last night. It may not seem like a big deal but it annoyed me to be honest.

I visited a friend which is quite close to my W's older sisters house. My SIL texted me asking how I was doing, said she'd seen my car parked close by and said to pop in for a coffee and it would be nice to see me. We've always got on really well so I did briefly stop by. She is also the only in-law that lives locally.

I told her that things were going to go more smoothly from now on as I'm moving on and letting go. I said I still loved W but that I had to let her go so that we could both find happiness again. I made SIL a promise before we were married, that I'd always do the right thing by W and would look after her. Unfortunatly, the right thing now is to divorce.

SIL actually got a little upset about how sad it was that this was happening. Everyone thought we'd be together forever and it's a bit of a shock to them all (her family). I told her to try and not be sad about it, and ultimatly she needs to just be there for W now. I said that I'd keep in touch but that it was obviously going to be difficult for me to be (emotionally) part of their family now when (legally), I won't be.

I wish it wasn't like that, I have 4 lovely nieces, and I've always been close to all my in-laws. Anyway, SIL asked me to let W know that I'd been to visit her which I said I would. We agreed that if W wasn't happy with that, I wouldn't visit again.

This is how the conversation went...

B "I saw SIL tonight, she wanted you to know. It won't be a regular occurance, I hope you're ok with that?"
W "Whatever"
B "Would you prefer I didn't speak to your family again"
W "It's not up to me, it's up to them. They can make their own choices"
B "So no then"
W "I really don't mind either way, I don't need texts informing me after the event"

I didn't text back anything after that but it was the "they can make their own choices" part that annoyed me.

I know that technically they're not going to be my family for much longer but they still are at the moment. I don't want to fall out with any of them (and they don't with me either). I didn't say anything to SIL that I wouldn't have said in front of W, it was actually all very innocent. I was trying to set SIL's mind at ease about the sitch.

I suppose I DO need to sever the ties with all her family now though, it's just something else W has stolen from me along with my dreams and half my grandchildren when they come along.

I may tell W to let her family know that she would prefer that they didn't contact me at all, and that I won't them either but it's not MY choice for it to be that way.

Anyway...onwards and upwards.
Posted By: Sotto Re: Onwards and upwards. - 03/17/15 01:29 PM
Hi Barry. I think it's true that your W's family will make their own choices and some may well want to keep in touch, which is great if you do too. I wouldn't feel that you have lost them just yet.
Posted By: Mozza Re: Onwards and upwards. - 03/17/15 03:15 PM
What's wrong with your W's answer? It seems very fine to me and that's what DB advocates. In fact, that's what I told my W when she asked me about contacting my family. She leaves it to you and them, I really don't understand why you're bothered.

Perhaps you would want her to block those contacts so that you could claim to be a victim? "I love them so much, but W won't let me even talk to them!" And what if her stance doesn't reflect her true feelings, what do you care about them anymore?

Of the whole text exchange, I would keep only your first sentence. The worst part was "So no then". She had just been clear and you told her she was lying.
Posted By: Barry Re: Onwards and upwards. - 03/17/15 04:37 PM
Hi Toots, I'm sure that will be the case with her family. I'd like to stay in touch with them all really.
If they don't want to, then I'll respect that of course.

SIL was saying how horrible it was at Christmas (you're telling me it was!!), as we'd always got together as a family for such a long time. Obviously those sort of things won't happen again, but the occaional phone call, text, or even visit would be nice.
I've never really thought of them as HER family, they've been ours and we have been close.

W has avoided my family like the plague up to know. None of them have seen her since before Christmas and she told me she actually hid from my parents recently. Obviously it's awkward for W, she's the one who wants to split up and she's hurt me deeply so my family are angry with her. W says she doesn't care...yes W, I know you don't!!

Of course if the shoe was on the other foot and I wanted the split and she'd spent 3 months in deep depression, HER family would almost certainly not want to talk to me either. So I understand why my parents are being the way they are. They don't say much to me about her to be honest. They know I don't like bad things said about her.

This is just another one of the sad results of divorce I guess, dealing with ex-in laws too. It's not nice, but then hey, no-one says divorce is a fun thing!!

Ultimatley, my old life is gone (but not forgotten). Time to move on with my kids into what I hope will be an exciting future.
Posted By: Barry Re: Onwards and upwards. - 03/17/15 05:02 PM
Hi Mozza, good to hear from you.

I pondered over the same thing myself. What IS actually wrong with her answer? I guess I'm annoyed because I'm trying to give her what she wants with the divorce, the money, and I'm not being an a***hole about any of it. In fact, it's ME running around trying to sort it all out.

Now that that's the case, I'd hoped for a little more cooperation and maybe a more friendly manner from W. I wouldn't expect W to not speak to any of my family again, and the "whatever" text from W actually means a lot more than that.

I was annoyed because I've tried to tell my family that although it's going to be strange and probably unpleasant when they eventually see W, to not blank her and try to speak. So it feels like I'm actively trying to pave the way for a more cooperative future between us, and I don't understand why W can't do the same with her family.

Regarding the victim thing, you may be right that that's a subconscious thought - it's not something I'm aware of thinking but then we're back into the "what is water" scenario again.
I probably still have a lot of work to do in that area. Thanks for pointing this out.

What do I care about her true feelings? Not much tbh, the same as she does about mine.
Posted By: Mozza Re: Onwards and upwards. - 03/17/15 05:33 PM
It seems like you're bothered because you're still too attached to her reactions. You want her to be grateful and cooperative. Remember that it's not that she's your W in a bad mood; she's in a different mindset altogether. If she were in a coma, would you be upset that she doesn't respond to your questions? Try to think of her current situation similarly and have no expectations.

You chose to tell your family how to behave with your WAW. You went beyond what is recommended by DB and you probably meant well, because you're a Nice Guy. But that got you in a covert contract: I'm Nice to you hence you will be Nice to me. It's a setup for disappointment and anger. And that's what you got. In fact, she probably didn't care one bit about your "generous" intervention on her behalf, which happens all the time to Nice Guys. Take responsibility for your own needs.

On that note, stop thinking that you're nice in giving her the divorce that she wants. You don't have a choice. Same for the financials: you know you're coming on top so you're doing it for yourself. And there are no medals for "Not Being An A-hole"; it's just the honorable thing to do and you benefit from it more than anyone. This is another example of you being Nice and expecting people to fulfill your needs in return.

This was a very mature response on your part, by the way.
Posted By: Barry Re: Onwards and upwards. - 03/17/15 06:51 PM
Ahh Mozza, I've missed you on my thread.
You always seem to see right through me and always have good advice.

Every word of your post is accurate and I need to work on those things. I've made some considerable progress on the Nice Guy front recently, I should probably re-read NMMNG though. I do find myself stopping myself from saying things or acting in a certain way now (not with W, just in general) because I see old habits creeping in from time to time. It takes time to change habits of a lifetime I guess.

On an unrelated matter, I recieved an email this afternoon from a woman I haven't seen for a few years...we used to be work colleagues.
W met her a couple of times and thought that she would make my eyes wander (she's an incredibly attractive, younger, educated woman). I never saw her "that" way tbh and I was happily married to W.
We worked very closely on some projects and it was more her humour I found likeable. That and her infectious laugh! I think she may have had a soft spot for me though, and I think W saw it too.

Anyway, she said she'd heard about my sitch, was sorry to hear that blah blah blah (heard it all a thousand times now). She said that W must be crazy to let me go and asked if I wanted to meet up for a coffee sometime.
She now lives about 50 miles away so it's not just stopping by for a coffee as such. I haven't responded yet.

Of course I'm certain she just means a friendly coffee. I'm by no means looking to date anyone even if it were anything other than that. This is all way too raw at the moment. However, I felt lifted by it and it made me think that yes, I actually do have a lot to offer a R one day.

It's a shame it can't be with W but that's just how it is now.

Barry.

p.s Mozza, did you read my last post on my previous thread.
It explains a lot about me.
Posted By: Mozza Re: Onwards and upwards. - 03/17/15 07:23 PM
I noticed that you've made a lot of progress on the Nice Guy front and in fact I'm impressed that you progressed so fast because it didn't look promising in the beginning. It's all for you.

Another book that you might consider is "Models" by Mark Manson. It's about attracting women through honesty (not pick-up lines) and what I've read so far (10% of the book) applies perfectly to re-attracting our WAW. This section talks about how neediness is repulsive to women, more than to men, and yet it's a behavior that we see a lot from LBH on these boards. Sandi2, Wonka and Starsk309 are three of the main critics of the doormat/gay boyfriend approach. You have been criticized for this (along with 90% of us LBH) and I think you still display some of this behavior with your WAW. Anyway, another book to consider.

As you know, I'm always interested to see what kind of external opportunities LBS get, so I'm interested in this old colleague getting in touch. I'd say that in your case, your emotions are too raw but also your WAW has not put herself into some of the more extreme situations, like mine has (moving in with OM), so your justification for going on dates or making moves on other women is on less solid ground. I'm not saying that's what you're doing with her, it's just a thought about the general topic in your sitch.

I have seen your post at the end of your other thread. My first question is: Why did you bury it there while you had already started this new thread?
Posted By: Barry Re: Onwards and upwards. - 03/17/15 08:20 PM
I had to make progress in general, I could feel myself sinking.
Obviously I don't feel amazing about things, but I'm living again now.
I'll check out the book above, sounds interesting. It's not going to help me with my WAW, that ship has sailed but neediness has been one of my biggest character flaws for a long time. It's strange, I'm only really like that around W. This is one of the reasons I've decided to D. Although I love her still, she doesn't bring out the best in me any more. Right now, she feels toxic to me actually.

Regarding the coffee invite, as I say, I'm sure it's an innocent invite from the woman and I only mentioned it because it cheered me up a bit. W and I have agreed to remain single until the D happens. I'm fairly sure she'll keep to her word on that, and I have no intention of doing anything untoward either. For me, I do miss female company though. Not even the physical aspects so much (but boy I'm getting there!). I think I'll go, it'll be good to see her again and as I say, she's a funny (and fun) person. I need more people like that in my life right now.

I put that post on my last thread because I was trying to keep this thread positive in nature. That post describes the most shameful thing I've ever done in my life Mozza. If I'm honest with myself, I'm still ashamed to this day. I have to forgive myself completly and forget about it. I was never able to do that in my M, I was never able to say to W "I've never cheated on you", it felt like such a burden.
As I said, W forgave me years ago, it's a shame I couldn't do the same.

As I move on with my life, and maybe in time meet someone new, I won't have that with them. I can start anew, with a clean slate. That gives me hope.
Posted By: Mozza Re: Onwards and upwards. - 03/17/15 09:05 PM
As I've stated before, I'm concerned that you try to bury your actions under your words. This has been an issue at the beginning of your sitch and I suspect that it was there in your relationship. So to me it was a bad sign that you buried a very important confession into an old thread. A positive thread is one that takes you towards happiness. Its about your attitude: being optimistic, honest, mature, strong, etc. It sometimes involve painful steps, including confessions. This confession of yours is such a step. Now you're unlikely to get much exposure and feedback for it. It's almost removed from your sitch history on these boards because it is appended at the end of an old thread. If you don't mind, I would suggest that you repost it here. I almost did it when I saw it, but I decided that this was a decision for you to make.

By the way, if I have anything to contribute to your sitch, it's because of how similar to you I was and I am. I am upset at my own faults and weaknesses and spend a great deal of energy to fix them. It upsets me when I observed them and their impact in others. Some of my friends get the same treatment as you. I might be a few weeks ahead of you, but that's it. If anything, I am a zealous convert.

By the way, in general try not to start new threads until you reach 100 posts. It makes your stich easier to follow. I know why you did it, but it's very rarely done around here and not really advised.
Posted By: Barry Re: Onwards and upwards. - 03/17/15 09:45 PM
Ok, so for those that haven't seen this. I've copied it over from my old thread.
Mozza is right, I shouldn't have hidden it away.

Hello everyone, I have something to say, something I've not told the forum before. It's important but please don't judge me for it, it was a very long time ago. It had a big impact on me, my W and my M for a long time. As I reflect on how I find myself here, this is something that's had a profound effect on me all my life.

I cheated on my W when we'd been married for about a year.

This would be 20 years ago now. I don't even know why I did it. I prided myself on being someone who would never do that and I was very much in love with my W. I was such an a***hole.
I broke it off with OW. I was very attracted to her but I couldn't do it to my W any more. OW told me in the same phone call that she was pregnant.
She had a termination and I never saw her again.

About 6 months later, OW called my workplace one night (I worked shifts back then) to tell me she was going to tell my W as she felt I'd left her in the lurch and had got away with it (she was right, I had).

She'd found out where I lived and had been spying on the house. I told her there and then that I would tell my W rather than her hear it from an OW and she said she was going to tell her the next day.
I left work, went home and woke my wife at about 1:00am and told her everything. She was devastated and something died in her and in our M that day.

I left the house and slept in my car for a couple of days. I was so ashamed of myself. I had been for a long time, and I was almost glad I'd told her.
I called W a few days later and she said to come home.
We talked about it, and I answered every question she asked truthfully. We both cried, but she was so hurt by it. Anyway, she said she wanted me to stay and for us to work things out. She hadn't told anyone about it and she wanted it to stay that way. Our families still didn't know up to BD, although hers probably do now. Mine still don't.

I've never wanted to jeopardise my life that that again. I'm not a serial cheater and I've never even considered being intimate with anyone else in 20 years. I mean that.

It took a long time to gain her trust back but we were both determined to make it work. After a year and a half or so, she told me that she'd forgiven me but she'd never forget it. It affected me for years though, too many years. I let my W dominate me in a lot of ways because I walked on eggshells for most of our early marriage. I'd hurt the one I loved in the worst way possible and I was always trying to make amends even after she said she forgave me.

This went on in my head for so many years that it became engrained into my very being. It wasn't in the forefront of my mind all the time obviously but it became the norm that I'd always be the one to back down on everything. My W never apologised for anything in our M.

We went to Greece for a week on our 15th wedding anniversary and whilst we were there, something bought the topic up. I told my W that I still felt sorry for what I did back then, but that it had made me love her more when I realised what I was could have lost. She told me to let it go, that she never thought about it and only ever thought of me as a faithful husband. We ML that night and it was the best of our lives. In fact, those were the best years around that time.

I've never been able to forgive myself completely for it though. I always only ever wanted to please my wife and to make her happy. Over the years, I suffocated my W with love into becoming a WAW. It was her decision to go but I paved the way.

So here I am, about to be a divorced all because I couldn't forget the past.
As the saying goes, we reap what we sow.
Posted By: Barry Re: Onwards and upwards. - 03/18/15 09:46 PM
Hi all, just a quick post to say nothing really to report on the financial side of things so far. Still working on it all, and I don't want to file until I know for sure that I can take STBX's offer. NC with her, and that's the way it shall stay until I have some news on the offer or the D. She'll just have to be patient.
I'm setting the pace on all of this now.

I took D16 and S13 for dinner this evening which was nice. I need to just get this all over with now and get back home. I'm already in single Dad mode of course but I don't see the kids as much as I'd like and miss the boring stuff, making the dinner, helping with homework, or just sitting watching the TV with them. They're all taking this much better now they can see that Dad isn't falling apart at the seams. It's what lets me know that I'm on the right path for me and them.

I also had an opportunity presented to me at work today. It'll mean working away for 2 or 3 days a week in a big city around 300 miles away. It's a 3 month deal, in which time I'll learn some new skills (and teach others some of mine).
Obviously this'll have an negative effect on seeing the kids so I'm still undecided on it. My boss knows my sitch and saw it as an opportunity to get away from my home town for a couple of days a week. I think I'll do it, mainly because I won't know anyone there and it could be a great GAL activity in the evenings. Nothing ventured, nothing gained as they say.

Barry
Posted By: Barry Re: Onwards and upwards. - 03/19/15 07:55 PM
I'd like to talk about my feelings about my W. Not the feelings as to why I want to R with her (I could list these but it's futile for me to think of her this way any more, it only upsets me). I don't actually believe that R is possible any more.
I realise that's a bit of an un-DB like thing to say here but it's the truth.
Our M is over, even if not legally. That's just a matter of time now.

I know I've given up on her (I have to for my sanity) and that's not really what this forum is about but I want to keep posting because it helps, even if I get no feedback. I'm not sure now if people have read my 20 year old confession now and think that maybe I deserve all I get for doing that? I hope that's not the case.

One of the reasons why I've been able to detach from W so well over the last couple of weeks is that I've taken a long hard look at our M and tried to be objective on the things that I DON'T like about her. My love for her has always made these things tolerable or blinkered me into seeing her in a positive light.
W has detached from me just fine in only seeing the negatives in me and our M so I thought I'd give it a try. I was quite surprised as to what I came up with.

I'm aware that this post will come across to some that I'm playing the victim, that's not the case, I'm merely giving my thoughts on my W's part in this sitch.
I've tortured myself enough on what my role has been.

There are some things I'll list first then I'll follow it up with the thing that's the real dealbreaker for me...

Rarely cooked meals for her family (she's a cook by trade).
Rarely cleaned our home and was actually very untidy.
Not a sexual person at all.
Found it difficult to show affection towards me (simple handholding etc).
Selfish
NEVER apologised for anything.
Condescending and critical.
Controlling.
No interest in "dating" me.

And the dealbreaker for me is..

Emotionally closed off to me.

I'm making W sound like a real b1tch here. Obviously she wasn't like this all the time (and certainly not for all of our M) or we would never have stayed together for 23 years. She's changed a lot, we both have.

I've been thinking a lot about some of your sitches, particularly those whose WAS's have been or are still in an EA. For those that have been avidly keeping up with my sitch (thank you), you'll know already that there is no known OM on the scene. What there is, and what there has been for many years is W's best friend (female). W has been and still is in an EA with this best friend.

An EA is one person having their emotional needs met by someone other than their spouse. There doesn't necassarily have to be any sexual undertone to it.
I don't blame this friend for the complete break-up of our M, we did this all ourselves. She did play a part in being a constant (and I mean daily) addition in our M but it was my W's choice to let herself become so enmeshed with this friend that she pushed me away in the process. I suppose because W's emotional essence became unattainable to me, I wanted it more and more.

THAT'S what pushed HER away. This is what W meant when she said to me about not loving someone too much. She felt smothered because I wanted to be her best friend and the one she would turn to. Much of the root cause of my depression for the last 18 months has been centered around this ideal.

They have always been close, too close in my book. It's good to have friends but not at the expense of your M. If there were ever a need for a shoulder to cry on, someone to tell a secret to, or even for someone to just shoot the sh1t with, W would always turn to her friend to have her emotional needs met. It really upset me that this was the case, and I was jealous. I felt abandoned and lonely.
I was jealous of the bond they shared and what she represented in our M.
She was always the third wheel in our R.

I was talking to a colleague at work today (female), who has really helped me cope with my depression since BD. She was seriously ill with depression a couple of years ago too, but she made it through it so she knows how important it is to talk to someone who understands the emotions. She is happily married and I know her H too. Anyway, as I talked with her today about the above, I said to her "I'm sure you have girlfriends that you would tell things to that you wouldn't tell your H". She looked at me and said "No, I don't actually. I DO have lots of girlfriends but my H is my best friend. I'd talk to him about everything".

That got me thinking that to me, that's what M's should be like. Especially long ones like ours. My W CHOSE to turn to her friend over me. It wasn't like I didn't want to be there for her, in fact, that was what I wanted most in my M.

I've also known this best friend for most of my life and I've seen many changes in her that my W has and is trying to replicate. Best friend has been divorced, and actually married her AP. She has had the tattoos, the "boob job", the new car, the new job and started wanting to party like its 1999. All of these things my W is now doing herself.

The best friend also has a brother (single) who is actually a great guy. I've been away on fishing weekends with him and get on well with him (not a friend as such though). He's not what I'd call good looking but very funny and easy going.
Best friend and he are very close.

If I had to bet on what's going to happen, I can see my W dating the brother at some point...set up by the friend of course. It's none of my concern really, W is lost to me now and if it were to happen that way, I would at least know that she was dating someone decent.

When my W offered me her pearl of wisdom in not loving someone too much, I knew what she meant. I didn't tell her this, and maybe I should have but I wanted to tell her that should she find someone else, she needs to love them more - and show it. I wanted to tell her that she should remember that if she's in a R with someone, they've given her a large piece of their heart. They haven't given it to her and her best friend. They don't come as a pair.

Sadly, I know that W and friend will never change the bond they have and I fear for W in that she will find herself having a similar problem in the future. She'll realise one day that it's not just me that doesn't like playing second fiddle to a friend, that's the same for the majority of people unless they are just in it for casual sex. My W isn't (or I should say hasn't been) someone who would do that so I worry for her next long term relationship.

I'm actually decided. As much as I do love her still, I couldn't ever R with her as long as I was a safety net for when her friend isn't around.

Barry.
Posted By: rd500 Re: Onwards and upwards. - 03/19/15 08:19 PM
Barry. At the end of the day what you decide is all that's important. O e rule
Of thumb on this board is never act in haste. Don't make a decision based on how you feel now. Wait for a few weeks at least to make sure your feelings don't change.

Take care , Rd
Posted By: Barry Re: Onwards and upwards. - 03/20/15 01:09 AM
Thanks for that RD, good to hear from you.
Whenever I see you're signature by the way, I think how similar our family's are in numbers, kids ages, length of R and M, difference in age between H&W. Obviously you've got 10 years on me but still, very similar.

As it stands, I'm done. To turn this around now, I think it would take too much effort from W. That list up there ^^ ^^, is a partial list of what I don't want my M to be like for ME to be happy.

Those are things that W will not change. She doesn't believe she needs to change anything about herself, apart from getting away from me.
She's actually quite comfortable with who she is and what she wants now.
I can tell you for sure that her friends are all helping enable this transition from a married yummy mummy, to a single MILF.

I've become the symbol of her old life now, and everything that was wrong with it. I'm not saying she won't at some point realise that that may not be the case, just that I'd think I'd stepped into a parallel universe if she changed any of them. It makes me angry to even consider she might, but with someone else.

As I say, these things have bugged me for a long time and they're part of the reason she feels I'm controlling, of why I've been unhappy and why I find myself here. It's my reactions to these actions that caused W to decide to end things and I appreciate that I could of reacted differently. The cooking, cleaning, domestic chores things I could cope with to some extent, it's really the lack of desire for closeness with me (which has always been there but has been unbearable in the last 18 months) that tell me I shouldnt WANT to be with someone who doesn't return my affections.

I'm sure there are lots of women out there who are in the same position as me here, and they could write that list about there H's. I used to love loving my W, it didn't used to feel like hard work to have that love returned either. For a long time I've felt lonely in my M because I didn't feel loved. That's not how life is meant to be..we only get one chance, life isn't a dress rehearsal.

I need to accept that I had a good life with W but that for whatever underlying reason (from her perspective), she no longer feels like I'm the one. I wish that weren't true and that I could turn everything around. I just can't. She's not interested in how a M should be, only in how W wants to be.

If she ever decided she'd made a mistake in doing this, and she hadn't missed the boat and I was with someone, I would consider taking her back but it would take such a change in W that it becomes incomprehendable that this will ever happen. So for now, I move on...

Onwards and upwards smile
Posted By: Mozza Re: Onwards and upwards. - 03/20/15 04:55 AM
Hey Barry - Good on your for continuing to open up and progress in your thoughts and emotions.

It's late so I'll be short. I'm concerned that I see some of the Old Barry popping up. My main concern is that you're now trying to reject her to make up for her rejection of you. You're hurt so you find reasons to say that you don't want her after all. I myself came quite close to this a week ago when thinking out loud about whether my W is a serial cheater that can't be trusted. I know that this feeling keeps coming up in me: "She was worse than me and I'm the one who should be rejecting her." And you're going further by almost giving up on your sitch (the typical newcomer after a few months, I seem to observe with time).

Uncertainty is very difficult to bear for the human mind. Learning to live with uncertainty is apparently a key sign of intelligence. In our case, this uncertainty about our M is some of the hardest to accept and manage. We want an out all of the time: we want her to turn around right now, we temp check to see if she wants us after all, we are pessimistic and claim it's done, we decide that WE don't want to R, etc. Anything to take us out of this uncertainty, much like the person who says: "Just tell me today that I have cancer, I can't wait for the test results another day", even though it doesn't make sense.

So I encourage you to think whether you can step back a little and accept that you don't know the future. That leaving your options open holds more promises for you. You don't know if your W will change her mind about you (did you know she was going to leave you?). You don't know what she'll reflect upon in the coming year about her personal changes. You don't know where your mind will wander during the same period. You don't know. Try to ban the "always" and "never" from your thoughts, recognizing the principle of impermanence, the same one that has brought this unexpected S in our lives.
Posted By: rd500 Re: Onwards and upwards. - 03/20/15 04:12 PM
Hi Barry. With regards to what your W will change or not You honestly don't know. My W works at a certain place and loves it. It was a major factor in how our M collapsed I would have bet my life that W would never leave but over the last few weeks she has been talking to kids about leaving. I was stunned and then W starts telling me she no longer likes the place. I know this seems small to you Barry but please believe it's huge.

Don't even try to think what' your W will or will not do. Just worry about Barry
Take care. Rd
Posted By: Barry Re: Onwards and upwards. - 03/20/15 07:01 PM
Hi Mozza. Thanks for the encouragement regarding opening up. Theres a few things Id like to pick up on in your post...just to clarify my thoughts.

Originally Posted By: Mozza
My main concern is that you're now trying to reject her to make up for her rejection of you.

It's really "because of", not "to make up for". I don't think I'm feeling this way out of any sense of revenge or retaliation. I see it as a means to an end in my need to detach and as I say, it's worked wonders for W in seeing me in a negative light.

You're hurt so you find reasons to say that you don't want her after all.

I DO want her though...more than anything else, but I can't have her (at least now, maybe never). We will be divorced soon. I can go round and round in circles in my mind thinking of the woman I love (which I do very much) and who loved me, but that woman is not in my W's mind, body & soul at the moment. Maybe she'll come back, maybe not. To be honest, no matter how I think of her, she is still in my thoughts all the time in some way how could she not be.

And you're going further by almost giving up on your sitch.

I can't stres enough that giving up is not my preference at all. I don't want to give up on my M or on her, but I simply can't continue to feel like a dog that's constantly kicked by its owner and yet keeps coming back happily for more.
I've told my W that I'll always leave a path to R open to her, but that I WILL move on with my life without her and won't sit around moping about the fact that she no longer loves me.
W is the only woman I want in my life, despite my list of negative points about her. As I mentioned, there is a positive list too (maybe I should post that to add some balance to my posts?) but that feels like a list of what I'm losing and only causes me pain. I don't see any value in having it in the forefront of my mind right now. I try to keep the loving thoughts to a minimum at the moment.


So I encourage you to think whether you can step back a little and accept that you don't know the future. That leaving your options open holds more promises for you.

Of course youre right in that no one can know the future for certain. What I do know for certain is that once I get to the stage financially that I'm able to take W's offer, I'll then have to file for the protection reasons I've mentioned before. I don't have an option here, and D does seem to be the final nail in the coffin for us. No, I don't know for sure that we will definatly D - W may stop all this at any point, but me looking at my sitch through rose tinted glasses is not the way forward. It's ok for all of us to have a glimmer of hope, so long as we don't trick ourselves into being unrealistic.

You don't know if your W will change her mind about you (did you know she was going to leave you?).

Not so much know she would, but I knew she was capable of it. Because we'd had a similar (although smaller scale in terms of separated time) BD last year, I tried to do all I could to be a better person so she would love me again. I have to admit that she tried to, and therein lay her problem. She didn't think it "normal" that you should have to try and love someone. To her it was there or it wasn't. I tried to say to W that long marriages can be hard work, but you DO have to put the work into the emotional side. Anyway, we got to the point where she said she did love me and wished it hadn't have happened (no apology offered - but I didn't really expect one) but as things started to go sour again, I knew this time that she was quite capable of another BD.

You don't know what she'll reflect upon in the coming year about her personal changes. You don't know where your mind will wander during the same period. You don't know. Try to ban the "always" and "never" from your thoughts, recognizing the principle of impermanence, the same one that has brought this unexpected S in our lives.


I truly hope you're right with this ^ ^ Mozza. I hope W does reflect on things, and yes, I do still have some hope for our R. I don't think it will happen in time to call off the D that I'll be setting in motion though. Although I dont know that W wouldn't want to R with me after D, I have known her a very long time and it just doesn't seem likely. I do hope I'm wrong about that. I suppose the only never I should remember is that I told W I'd never give up on her completley even though I will move on without her.
I can't have it both ways I guess.
Posted By: Barry Re: Onwards and upwards. - 03/21/15 01:59 AM
Originally Posted By: Barry
I suppose the only never I should remember is that I told W I'd never give up on her completely even though I will move on without her. I can't have it both ways I guess.

This last part was confusing even for me to read back later? Can't have what both ways?
I think what i meant but communicated badly here, was that in order for me to emotionally move on, I feel like I need to give up on my M, even if not necessarily on my W. Does that make sense?
I accept that the M we had is over, and of course that's heartbreaking but it IS the reality. Does there exist a path to a R together at any point in the future??...maybe, IDK...I hope so.
Posted By: Kramer Re: Onwards and upwards. - 03/21/15 02:30 AM
Originally Posted By: Barry
Originally Posted By: Barry
I suppose the only never I should remember is that I told W I'd never give up on her completely even though I will move on without her. I can't have it both ways I guess.

This last part was confusing even for me to read back later? Can't have what both ways?
I think what i meant but communicated badly here, was that in order for me to emotionally move on, I feel like I need to give up on my M, even if not necessarily on my W. Does that make sense?
I accept that the M we had is over, and of course that's heartbreaking but it IS the reality. Does there exist a path to a R together at any point in the future??...maybe, IDK...I hope so.


Your sentiments are very similar to mine. In my case, my wife had the affair and also filed for divorce. I cannot fight the process, so I will respond and protect my interests. Of course, this will anger her because she expects that I will take on all the debt and let her keep everything. She will likely accuse me of being mean and vindictive, but in reality I am just protecting my interests in the divorce that she initiated. I love her and will always hold out hope for a reconciliation, but I will also participate in ending our marriage. I suspect that her pride will prevent reconciliation after we are divorced, but I will still hold ou hope, even as I move forward into uncharted and unwanted territory.
Posted By: Barry Re: Onwards and upwards. - 03/21/15 10:27 PM
Hi Kramer, our sentiments our similar even if not our sitch's.
I've seen it said many times before (and had it said to me) that you should be careful what you wish for.
In some ways, it's more difficult to DB your way out of a sitch where this is no OP.

There is no OM drawing my WAW away from me (see my post above reference best friend and EA though).
If there were, I'd have had a clearer run at this. I think that's the crucial part of my sitch in that there is no OM, there was never any abuse on either part, we didn't even really argue above and beyond what would be considered normal or even healthy in the build-up to this. She just gave up on us.

I don't believe that couples just drift apart over time.
One or both of them know it's happening, but unless BOTH of them are willing and able to recognise it, communicate effectively on the issue, action a plan, monitor the results, and change the plan as necessary to ensure the best results - they actually push each other away. You have a wayward W, I have a walk-away wife, but the end result is the same - we find ourselves in the same place emotionally in either sitch.

We need to heal and to protect ourselves. No-one can do that for us, and we can only control ourselves. Our actions however will have an impact on our W's, our children (in my case), our in-laws, and our chances of possible R in the future.

Your WW has filed against you, and I urge you to protect yourself by whatever means necessary. I will file against my WAW for financial reasons only (I'm getting the better deal out of the two of us, such is her offer). If there a way to not D her, but protect myself legally from the possible her in the future, I'd do it. Sadly that isn't the case in the UK so this is why I've made peace with my decision.

How I justify that to myself is a means to an end in my quest for detachment. I have actually told my W that I WILL move on without her but that I'd always be open to a discussion about R in the future. This is how I feel right now.

As I reflect on Mozza's and RD's posts above, it is true that in a years time, who knows where both of us will be. I'm not looking for anyone else that much is true now. W says she isn't either and to her credit, she shows no signs of looking for any kind of relationship. Anything is possible though in as you say, the uncharted and unwanted territory of our immediate futures without our W's.

I wish you lots of luck in your sitch, and that you find peace in whatever the outcome.

Barry.
Posted By: Barry Re: Onwards and upwards. - 03/22/15 03:48 PM
I had to see W yesterday as I've run into another complication with the finances. I'm keeping her in the loop as to what's going on with both the re-mortgaging and the divorce filing. I haven't filed yet until I know I can take her offer. I know I'm just stalling really because I will get the finances sorted out one way or another. We discussed a few things, but no R talks. She's asked me to file and get the paperwork moving so that once the finances are sorted, we won't have to wait too long. She gave me some examples she'd thought of to use as Unreasonable Behaviour.

She said that she really wants to get away from our house and start a new life. She wants me back with the boys because she agreed with me that living at my parents is not good for me. She's realises that it's probably going to be around 3 months at best from when I file to when she'll get the money and that was fine with her.
When I went round to our house, she was mopping the floor and I have to say, she'd totally scrubbed the place from top to bottom. I did the same when I moved out in January..she's readying herself to leave.

She'd changed her profile picture on FB to a recent one of her and D16, and both looked very beautiful. I told her it was a lovely photo (we aren't friends on FB), and that she looked good in it. She looked good when I was there too. Not just physically. She looks less stressed, more confidant, and does look happier now. It's horrible to think that she's all of those things because I'm gone but if that's what it takes for her to be happy then so be it. I'm working on my own and it'll be easier once I get home and have my own space back.
Posted By: rd500 Re: Onwards and upwards. - 03/22/15 04:57 PM
Hi Barry. You sound ok and that's great. Try not to mi d read if W is happier without you or not. You have no idea what she's thinki now or what she will think in a few months, etc.

Take care. Rd
Posted By: Barry Re: Onwards and upwards. - 03/23/15 12:45 PM
This just gets better and better. I received a phone call this morning regarding what is now MAJOR issues in raising the finances. It doesn't look like i'll be able to take W's offer and that I'll lose my house and the oppurtunity to live with my kids again too now.

If it's not bad enough that I have all this going on at all, now I can't even put an end to the drama, pay W off, go home and move on. This is really turning my world upside down.

I'm trying really hard to keep on keeping on but every way I turn, there's something making everything just that bit harder. In this case, it may be impossible to stop W forcing the sale of my house. It's probably the only way she can get her cash.

I was going to file today too if I could get a positive result with the finances. I've held off for the moment.
Posted By: Barry Re: Onwards and upwards. - 03/24/15 12:15 PM
I saw a friend last night and ending up breaking down for the first time in weeks. All the finance problems have hit me hard. If I can't sort it out (and it's looking likely I won't be able to), not only will I have lost the woman I loved (and love) to pieces, I'll lose the kids, I'll lose the house I've paid into for years and won't be able to afford another mortgage.

It's not that I'm emotionally attached to my house as such, it's only that by taking her offer, I was getting as good a deal as possible and I'd get half my kids living with me. We'd agreed on how things were going to work and although I wasn't happy with the sitch, I'd accepted that this was the way forward. It seemed like such a simple solution on paper.

All I wanted now I'd accepted the fact that my M is over, is to get all this over with as soon as possible. My STBX wants out of the house and the marriage quickly - and that's what I intended to make happen. There's as good as no chance of R between us before we D - she's litteraly a stranger to me now. I can't even think about whatever slim chance there may be.

I'm still so angry that she's done this to me and our family.
She's thrown me under a bus and I can't even pick myself up, dust myself off and move on without her.
Posted By: Mozza Re: Onwards and upwards. - 03/24/15 12:48 PM
Barry,

I'm so very sorry for your financial troubles. This comes at the wrong time, definitely. Everything was going to fall into place after the S and now you have another battle front. This is not what you needed right now. I completely understand that it's more about getting your life together post-S/D than anything else. In fact, you have the right attitude to this whole ordeal, one of acceptance. In a very short time, you've become very good at DBing.

The only thing you could change is to stop thinking in terms of chances to R. I know why you do it and I've done it for a very long time. In fact, I probably still do it in the back of my head. But the only place where this pessimism brings you is down. It's not the first time I tell you but I will repeat it: Some success stories of R have gone through where you're going and worse. Some better ones have never R. You don't know. You really, really don't. I know you hear and watch your W and think: "She's really moving on. She's clear. She says so, she walks the walk." People who have R have heard the same thing and more. They apparently hated each other, they moved in with OM, etc. I'm not saying yours is a sure bet, I'm saying that you speculate on things that you don't know, so not only is it pointless but it brings you down.

The helpful thing to do for you is to take action, acknowledging your current situation, but not extrapolating. You don't do it for her anyway, you do it for yourself, so there's just no point.

You've been doing good so far. Keep us posted on this financial situation. I really hope you'll find a solution. Not to sound like Richard Branson here, but 10,000 doesn't sound like such a huge amount, compared to an entire mortgage. By the way, don't exaggerate the impact: you'll get back most of the money you put in the house when you sell. Also, maybe you can't afford a mortgage now, but your life will turn around in the coming years, maybe you'll meet someone else or R, and you'll be able to buy a house again if that's what you want. Personally, I'm your age and I've never had a mortgage.
Posted By: Fogg Re: Onwards and upwards. - 03/24/15 02:10 PM
Barry, sorry your financials aren't going the way you would like right now. I can see you were happy about reclaiming part of something you lost and wanting to get to a point where the pain can start to diminish. I may be wrong, but I feel like you want this to end quickly so you can move on and stop hurting. I feel the same at times.

I know we have both very similar and very different sitchs, but I keep seeing similarities in our emotional states just offset by 1 or 2 weeks.

I'm just now starting to feel like I should have moved out a while back so I could start to to get myself together and push through the pain. Seeing my W daily kills me and I get to the point where I don't want to be in this house anymore. At times I just want to let go so she can begin to live how she wants, without me. I don't recognize her anymore, shes a stranger to me. I feel like a stranger in this house and to her. Then we share a small connection or nice conversation and I crash and burn inside. We rent so its not like I have any financial investment in staying, so I understand your position is much more complicated.

I'm not sure any advice I give would help because I don't understand this process at times either. I would just say try not to think in absolutes. Your not losing your children, your not losing your home even if you lose your house. Your home is where you make it and your children will always be in your life. Try not to focus too hard on making it work right now, it leads to disappointment when things don't go the way you want.

See it as another change in your path, one that will lead to your happiness in the end. We may not see what the future will bring, but it can always surprise us. Don't fixate your mind on only one possible outcome. Allow the possibility for anything to happen.
Posted By: Barry Re: Onwards and upwards. - 03/24/15 07:33 PM
Hey Mozza. Thanks for the cheerleading, although I do feel like a failure as far as DB'ing goes. I'm not busting one I'm afraid, I'm filing for one.

Regarding the chance of R, honestly, I know what you're saying about the success stories. I've read some sitch's that make me at least feel grateful that I don't have it any worse. AP's, small children, WAS's that want everything they're entitled to, feelings of hatred etc - I don't have any of those, yet even after all that and more, they clawed it back from the brink of D.

I don't seem to have seen many where D has actually happened and then they R successfully - if you know of any, please do let me know. I had an aunt and uncle who did and re-married. They were far from a success story though, and hated each other's guts by the end and divorced again!

In my case, at first I was filing for three reasons.
The financial protection it ensures when getting a consent order or "clean break" document in place. I would get my house back, even if it doesn't feel like home now, and last but by far from least I'd get to live with my boys.

However, I've come to terms with the hard truth that the only way I can hope to ever R with my W is to end our M. She needs to walk her path, and I mine. In time, maybe those paths will cross again - and that's really all I have hope for now. Who knows, maybe she'll think of me differently one day. Maybe she'll come to realise that for all our flaws, our differences, all the changes we've gone through, and everything that led us to this awful place, we had something special. We did, but to her, that's the past now. Barry is her past.

On the finance side, you're right...10,000 isn't a great deal of money. I'll elaborate on this, you never know, maybe we have a UK financial advisor on the forum!!

When W made me the offer and I started making enquiries about it, I called my mortgage lender to find out how much it would cost to have W taken off the mortgage, deeds etc, and asked about getting the 10k extra. It was at that stage where they told me that taking the mortgage over solely based on my income wouldn't be an option. Not only couldn't they give me the money (which I would be taking out of the not inconsiderable equity), they couldn't give me a mortgage at all. So I needed to try elsewhere.

The bank who we've had our joint account with for 15 years had sent me mortgage deals in the past so I tried them. When I saw them, they said that my credit score wasn't good enough to offer me anything. They said that if I could sort that out, they'd be able to give me an amount that would see me be about 5000 short on W's money.

I checked my credit score with the three main credit reference agencies and lo and behold, there's an unpaid mobile phone bill from last September lurking. It's in my name but the phone was my sons and W had got the contract out online. I was aware of this being done around 18 months ago. When I asked W about it, she said that we hadn't had anything saying we owed it...she thought the contract had finished so had cancelled the direct debit back in September. So then I get into a two week battle with the mobile phone company. I paid the bill immediately obviously.

What I needed them to do was take off the delinquent marks from my credit file when technically, I did owe them the money. They wouldn't do it. I spoke to Manager after Manager there and tried to even appeal to their compassion. What had happened now is that I couldn't get a mortgage so would lose my house and kids over a 50 phone bill that I didn't even know I had!! They wouldn't change it.

My score had increased just in settling the account so I went back to the bank and asked them to look again. They still said no and that they wouldn't even consider me for 6 months. It annoys me, we never miss any payments on anything. The bank can see this too, but they obviously see me as a risk.

It also doesn't help that we have 9k of other debt (credit cards, loan etc) and of course most is in my name as W wasn't working when we got them. We had holidays, cars, Christmas's etc on that money. I'm paying these, the mortgage, and various other bits at the moment and W is paying the household bills etc.
W doesn't earn enough to be able to get a loan to pay off half the debt, and we actually argued heavily about these other debts a few weeks ago. I asked her what she expected to happen with them?, was I supposed give her 10k cash and take all her debt away so she could live happily ever after??? She said she hadn't thought about it. I obviously called BS on that one.

Anyway, we've used a broker service in the past to change our mortgage (we always tie into a 2 or 3 year fixed rate deal) and I called them. Obviously there's a charge for their service but I need it sorting and they are really good. I spoke to my usual contact there and brought her up to speed on things as above.

I've only ever known this woman to be optimistic about our deals. We have a fair amount of equity in the house (around 60k) and we've never had a problem before. Almost immediately after doing some calculations, she said that she wasn't sure they'd be able to help me this time. My credit score is low, and my wages just aren't high enough. I can't change either of these things any more than I have. Shs said to leave it with her whilst she tries to see if anything can be done. It could be a couple of weeks before I know either way.

So the 10k I needed to raise has become a minimum of 112,000 (which pays off my existing lender plus W), which I'll have to take (if I even can) on extended terms (adding 6 years to the term) and at a higher interest rate (because of the credit score issue which was actually caused by W). All that AND I have to file for a divorce that I don't want. This is testing my acceptance and patience to breaking point I can tell you.

So now the worry is obviously that I can't get the mortgage, and W will force the sale of the house. Should that be the case, she's not going to want to take 10k when there's 55-60k coming to us. She said 10k so we wouldn't lose the house, but if it's going and that can't be helped, she may want more. She could get really nasty about things to be honest. She could demand more than half the equity by taking at least D16 and S13 with her (I'm certain S18 will live with me wherever). If that happens, I'll be paying support for both of them too, which we were avoiding before as we both had one depenfant each.

I don't know how this is going to turn out now. I was really hoping that it was going to go a lot more smoothly than this. I'll keep posting with any news.

Barry.
Posted By: Barry Re: Onwards and upwards. - 03/24/15 07:49 PM
Thanks Fogg, I haven't caught up on your thread for a while, I'll swing by in a moment.

You're right in that as much as I don't want any of this, it has to happen so I tried to take control of the situation and make it happen as soon as I could so I could move on. I really am looking at all the possible outcomes but the negative ones do far outweigh the positive ones...and they are far more likely.
It's the stress of it that's getting me down.
Posted By: Barry Re: Onwards and upwards. - 03/25/15 11:03 AM
I had to leave work early yesterday, and I probably will today as well - I'm really not feeling well at the moment. I'm so unhappy and the stress of all of this is too much. I slept for 5 hours in the middle of the day yesterday just so I didn't have to think about any of it.

I totally messed up last night too. I went to see W and broke down.

She doesn't have any stress, in fact, I only ever see or hear about her having fun. She doesn't even realise how much this is all affecting me. I've never done anything in my life that warrants me being made to feel like this.

I begged her to call all this off (I know guys, I know) because I love her and just want this to end. It's not like we've only been married for 2 years and they've been bad - we had 20 years together before that. I can't think of a single good moment in my life that she either wasn't there for or was part of and it's heartbreaking to see that she's happier and better off without me.
She didn't say a lot, apart from that she couldn't stop this. I asked because I'm desperate.

I'm trying so hard guys, so hard to make myself think like her in that this is all for the best. It's a constant battle though because I DON'T think it's for the best...not for me. Deep down, I still feel like I did at BD. I'm saying and doing all the right things in an effort to change my feelings about the whole thing but it's just not working. I come here and write to try and help with changing my feelings and to try to remain positive and upbeat. It's great to get positive feedback from you guys about how well I'm doing and I have found it a comfort. I can't help feeling like it's all just a sham on my part though.

I don't know if I should put this or not but I found myself thinking this morning (not for the first time) if my life insurance policy will pay out in the event of my suicide. My W and kids will get a large sum of money and the house gets paid for. I don't want to die, but the thoughts of losing the only woman i've ever loved, my home, and all my dreams for the future are overwhelming.
It's only thoughts of the kids that stop me.

I miss my W and family, and I'm so tired guys.
Posted By: Vapo Re: Onwards and upwards. - 03/25/15 12:04 PM
Hang in there buddy,

instead of sleeping, try to go into nature, take a hike, get some sun into you if you can, fill those lungs with fresh air, yell, scream, get the $hit out of you. And then when you are alone, give your w to God, let him take care of her, and give it to him out loud, not just in your mind. Ask for help and guidance and you shall receive it, just keep your heart and mind open...
Posted By: errod Re: Onwards and upwards. - 03/25/15 12:53 PM
Originally Posted By: Barry
I had to leave work early yesterday, and I probably will today as well - I'm really not feeling well at the moment. I'm so unhappy and the stress of all of this is too much. I slept for 5 hours in the middle of the day yesterday just so I didn't have to think about any of it.

I totally messed up last night too. I went to see W and broke down.

She doesn't have any stress, in fact, I only ever see or hear about her having fun. She doesn't even realise how much this is all affecting me. I've never done anything in my life that warrants me being made to feel like this.

I begged her to call all this off (I know guys, I know) because I love her and just want this to end. It's not like we've only been married for 2 years and they've been bad - we had 20 years together before that. I can't think of a single good moment in my life that she either wasn't there for or was part of and it's heartbreaking to see that she's happier and better off without me.
She didn't say a lot, apart from that she couldn't stop this. I asked because I'm desperate.

I'm trying so hard guys, so hard to make myself think like her in that this is all for the best. It's a constant battle though because I DON'T think it's for the best...not for me. Deep down, I still feel like I did at BD. I'm saying and doing all the right things in an effort to change my feelings about the whole thing but it's just not working. I come here and write to try and help with changing my feelings and to try to remain positive and upbeat. It's great to get positive feedback from you guys about how well I'm doing and I have found it a comfort. I can't help feeling like it's all just a sham on my part though.

I don't know if I should put this or not but I found myself thinking this morning (not for the first time) if my life insurance policy will pay out in the event of my suicide. My W and kids will get a large sum of money and the house gets paid for. I don't want to die, but the thoughts of losing the only woman i've ever loved, my home, and all my dreams for the future are overwhelming.
It's only thoughts of the kids that stop me.

I miss my W and family, and I'm so tired guys.



Wow Barry that post hit home with me. I have many of those same thoughts. I can tell you right now that if I did not have my daughter to worry about, I would not be here right now.
Posted By: rd500 Re: Onwards and upwards. - 03/25/15 01:10 PM
Hi Barry. Firstly please go and see your GP. They have seen people deal with this before and you need to speak to someone. Secondly. Insurance will not pay out on suicde and even in your sitch an "accident"'would be investigated by experts. Thirdly. You ha e children , your their dad. That's a responsibility that is also a gift What would the loss of you do to them,

What you are dealing with is incredibly hard , you have lost your best friend and basically your world as you knew it. No one knows what is around the corner , you W could want to reconcile , you could meet someone else , who knows.

Life is a bitch at the moment but the key is at the moment, Barry has a lot of living to do Please stop chasing your wife , she didn't decide to leave overnight and nothing you say will make her change her mind back overnight

Please go to the GP We all need help, I have L/C , friends , family and when my W left I got everything and my kids. Post often so others can offer advice and support

GP. TODAY BARRY

Take care. Rd
Posted By: Fogg Re: Onwards and upwards. - 03/25/15 01:20 PM
Originally Posted By: Barry

I don't know if I should put this or not but I found myself thinking this morning (not for the first time) if my life insurance policy will pay out in the event of my suicide. My W and kids will get a large sum of money and the house gets paid for. I don't want to die, but the thoughts of losing the only woman i've ever loved, my home, and all my dreams for the future are overwhelming.
It's only thoughts of the kids that stop me.

I miss my W and family, and I'm so tired guys.



Barry, this part of your post worries me alot. I completely understand those feelings because I had them two months ago. You don't want to die, but at the same time you don't want to live. Its a bad place to be in and if your going down that road you need to talk to someone to get some help. If your in counseling talk to that person, use a hotline if needed. Find someone to speak with.

Understand this. Your children will not in any circumstances be better off without you. No amount of life insurance money in the world can replace you to them. I understand your hurting, but they will not be better off. In fact, the pain you are feeling now would only be passed to your children if something happened to you. You cant do that to them. You understand how painful it is, be the man you need to be right now so you don't pass it off to your children/W. You don't deserve this pain, but neither do they.

Don't give up on things, I know it doesn't look good. It doesn't for any of us. You will be ok. I had a similar breakdown recently about detaching. I thought I was doing very well with it and then crashed hard when I realized I was just fooling myself about how well I was doing. I'm struggling to not show those emotions to my W aswell, you need to work on that. Don't let this cause you to backslide too much, understand how you are feeling, accept it and take baby steps to keep going. Nothing about this is going to be a short process but giving up or trying to force it to go faster will not help. Stop trying to control the outcome of your M, you can only control yourself and you still have work to do.

I know your tired, I am also. Nothing in life that's worth it is easy, but at the end of this you will be able to look back and see the journey was worth it, no matter where you end up.
Posted By: Mozza Re: Onwards and upwards. - 03/25/15 01:27 PM
Barry,

In the first couple of months of my sitch, I remember thinking that the timing would be perfect to be hit by cancer or a bus. I also remember thinking that all women but my W were ugly. Also, I couldn't understand how anybody could have the energy to start a project. How does the world even turn with this much pain in it?

You know what I'm going to say: it gets better. Just now I'm listening to a song I discovered yesterday and absolutely love. I had stopped watching TV for 4-5 months and now I follow a few series that I really enjoy. I bought tickets for a 3-day music festival and couldn't be more thrilled and, I'm astonished to say, a little happy that my sitch allows me to do this freely. And I see a lot of pretty women around.

What must be hardest for you is that you were getting better and then you got hit by these financial problems with real life consequences. Does it feel like you'll be at the bottom for a long time or even that things are going to get worse? If so, you must know that your life will be better than today in a year, and better than this another year later.

Here's a thought: there is passion in your future. Whether it's R with W or a new relationship, you will be in love, excited, having some mad sex, going out on dates and laughing a lot. Even for myself, I don't know how it's going to happen, but it has to. 20 years is a long time, but it's still just a quarter of your life. There's a lot ahead of you.

I'm going to recommend another book to you: "Models" by Mark Manson. It's a book about attracting women through honesty. It is the perfect complement to NMMNG but regarding women. It's not a pick-up artist kind of book; it's a book that forces you to reflect on your fear of rejection, but also what truly attracts women. And I mention that not in terms of dating new women, but of understanding what attracts your W. You can't afford these breakdowns in front of her anymore. Your gut is telling you to make one last attempt to convince her, but your gut has to understand how she'll be convinced. I keep thinking of all the LBH and WAW around here when I read the book because it overlaps a lot with DR even.

Vapo is right also: you need to GAL. If you can't plan anything, at least go for a walk, stop for a coffee and watch people walk by. I hit the bottom when I stay home too long and I reach new heights when I get busy. You need it a lot now.
Posted By: HeavyD Re: Onwards and upwards. - 03/25/15 01:44 PM
Barry

I wanted to comment about your situation and how much I empathize with you. I am so sorry about the pain you are in and the added financial difficulties. Believe me, I understand the pain.

You have your children to live for. They will need you for the rest of your lives as a guide and support and loving father. Please do not consider robbing them of you.

I know you feel down and this is a dark time in your life. Remember that this will pass and you will get to the other side.

Hang in there, I think it would also be a good idea to talk to your Doctor. There are a lot of medications that can help you deal with these understandably painful emotions your are experiencing.

I always remember the Churchill speech - never never never never give up.

I agree that distraction is the best rememdy at this point, go to the mall, coffee shop, bookstore, anywhere where there are people to watch. It makes you realize that the world is full of people and there are so many options.

We are all with you Barry.

Much support and love sent to you.
Posted By: Mozza Re: Onwards and upwards. - 03/25/15 02:25 PM
Originally Posted By: Barry
She doesn't have any stress, in fact, I only ever see or hear about her having fun. She doesn't even realise how much this is all affecting me. I've never done anything in my life that warrants me being made to feel like this.

I'm not sure you're being "made" feel like this. S is something that happens to a lot of people and we all have different reactions. On these boards, you see a lot of distress, but I have friends who have been much more accepting of it and just moving on within weeks or months. What I mean is that it's not your W that makes you feel like this, it's yourself, it's your reaction. Don't get me wrong: the circumstances are dire and of course you're going to be sad and down. But don't blame her for your reaction. Look inside of you.

That's what my IC helped me to do. He made me realize that I had put in my W certain ideas about myself and that the pain was to see these things go. For instance, my W is good looking, more than me, and so she was a sort of trophy wife that validated my own appearance and worth by her presence by my side. Another thing, and it is the one that should relate to you, is that I'm not comfortable with the idea of seducing a woman, of putting my needs and desire out there. In fact, I'm terrified of it. My IC made me realize that if I was much more comfortable and confident, I would react more calmly to my stich.

This is not to disregard the very real reasons you have to be sad. It's just to explore the reasons for the depth of your pain and your recent relapse.

Originally Posted By: Barry
I begged her to call all this off (I know guys, I know) because I love her and just want this to end.

Two excellent reasons for her to end this?

Originally Posted By: Barry
It's not like we've only been married for 2 years and they've been bad - we had 20 years together before that. I can't think of a single good moment in my life that she either wasn't there for or was part of

This is crazy talk. You were almost 20 when you met your W. You've had plenty of good times before you met her and you had plenty of bad times with her.

Originally Posted By: Barry
and it's heartbreaking to see that she's happier and better off without me.

Same here. When my W left me, she stopped all her medications and IC. She was on cloud me, free at last. When I met her, she had the glow of love and good sex. Guess what: five months later, she was back on medication and worse. Your W is on a high right now, finally doing what has been a secret desire. Don't go thinking that it's going to be for the rest of her life. She has not escaped the indignities of life.

In the long run, we have to stop comparing our happiness to that of our W, or even to feel competitive with other men who might make them happy. As an insecure Nice Guy like you, it drives me nuts too -- probably because deep down it makes me feel like an inferior male who can't compete to pass on his genes. Or according to the Nice Guy approach because it reveals our flaws, which we're trying hard to hide.

Originally Posted By: Barry
She didn't say a lot, apart from that she couldn't stop this. I asked because I'm desperate.

She did the right thing by listening and being steadfast, since that's her mindset. You shouldn't be looking for reassurance from her. And you shouldn't approach her when you're desperate. Has desperation ever worked with any woman? Ladies on this board, are you looking for a desperate man?

Originally Posted By: Barry
I'm trying so hard guys, so hard to make myself think like her in that this is all for the best. It's a constant battle though because I DON'T think it's for the best...not for me.

It doesn't have to be for the best. You don't have to agree with her. You've taken this too far. I don't think that my S is for the best, not for me, not for my kids, not even for my WW. It is what it is: reality. That's all you need to accept. It's her choice and as surprising as it is, she has every right to make it. We have no control and can only deal with dignity with the downfall.

Originally Posted By: Barry
Deep down, I still feel like I did at BD. I'm saying and doing all the right things in an effort to change my feelings about the whole thing but it's just not working. I come here and write to try and help with changing my feelings and to try to remain positive and upbeat. It's great to get positive feedback from you guys about how well I'm doing and I have found it a comfort. I can't help feeling like it's all just a sham on my part though.

I was concerned about this. Your changes had been very quick. As a Nice Guy, you adapt to meet expectations and it's possible that you've adapted to the expectations of this board. You want to be told that you're a good man, that you're doing things right. You find value in this because you don't find it in you. So you say what people want to hear.

Keep sharing what you are going through. This a large community of people who get it and are on your side.
Posted By: raliced Re: Onwards and upwards. - 03/25/15 04:19 PM
Originally Posted By: Barry

I begged her to call all this off (I know guys, I know) because I love her and just want this to end. It's not like we've only been married for 2 years and they've been bad - we had 20 years together before that. I can't think of a single good moment in my life that she either wasn't there for or was part of and it's heartbreaking to see that she's happier and better off without me.
She didn't say a lot, apart from that she couldn't stop this. I asked because I'm desperate.


I don't know if I should put this or not but I found myself thinking this morning (not for the first time) if my life insurance policy will pay out in the event of my suicide. My W and kids will get a large sum of money and the house gets paid for. I don't want to die, but the thoughts of losing the only woman i've ever loved, my home, and all my dreams for the future are overwhelming.
It's only thoughts of the kids that stop me.

I miss my W and family, and I'm so tired guys.



Barry- Forgive me for just jumping in on your thread - and I know plenty of others have already posted to you already, but your post has been bothering me all morning and I want to share a personal experience with you.

When I was a teenager, my best friend's father, who was a colonel in the Air Force, was found to have been cheating on his wife with a subordinate. He and his wife went through hell for about 5 months and then she finally forgave him and chose to reconcile. At that moment the Air Force decided to court martial him and the outcome at best, would have been dishonorable discharge, which would have severely impacted his ability to get a job. So, at least primarily because of the finances, he killed himself before that could happen.

His wife and two daughters have never really gotten over it. My friend, who was a sparkling, joyous person (and the class valedictorian) has never come close to reaching her potential. The suicide casts a pall on her children as well. It is an aching sadness and shadow that grievously affected my lovely friend and that has now been passed on to a second generation.

Oh- and it affected me too. Even as a bystander.The ripples from something like this stretch to places you would never imagine. I was very close to them and I respected him so much. I happen to work very near to what used to be the AFB he was stationed at, and I never pass it without thinking of him and what a tragic, stupid and unnecessary loss it was.

Please, please, do not consider inflicting this pain on your children or your W.

Barry - you'll get through the money problems. You will. I know quite a few people who lost everything in the recession and have dusted themselves off and rebuilt their lives. You can do the same.

I sincerely hope that what you wrote was just a brief moment of intense pain and that it has now passed.

Hang in there Barry.
Posted By: rd500 Re: Onwards and upwards. - 03/26/15 03:46 PM
Hi Barry. Could you give us an update please ? hope your doing ok

Take care. Rd
Posted By: Barry Re: Onwards and upwards. - 03/26/15 04:31 PM
Hello everyone.
Thank you all for your kind words of advice and comfort.

I didn't intend to alarm anyone with talk of suicide, or play the victim. As I say, the thoughts of my kids always stop me in my tracks. I'll be honest though in that if I didn't have them, there's a big chance I wouldn't have made it this far. I actually find that hard to digest. Surely I shouldn't want to live "just" because of my children, but that's what it's been like for me recently.
I can totally see how people get to the stage that they do it.

I'm already on anti-depressants...strong ones. I have been since Christmas. I see my GP regularly, I've been seeing an IC (although I have taken a break from it at her suggestion to attend an Emotional Wellbeing Course at my local college). I've been reading the books and talking to trusted close friends and family. I've had little to NC with W and it was all helping to a degree. I really felt like I was DB'ing well, and I felt as good as could be expected right up to the day that W made me this offer to buy her out of our home.

We'd initially agreed on a six month separation (obviously I hoped that we would R at the end of this period, or at least make a start on piecing), but she didn't even get a third of the way through that before letting me know she wanted out. I found it really difficult to deal with that and it really knocked me back to day one again. I've struggled ever since then really.

My GAL has been terrible lately. I've had no energy, no zest for life, just sadness and heartache. I know GAL works as it got me through the first 6 weeks - I need to get back to that, but without ANY thoughts of R now. It's just not going to happen.

My PMA (needless to say) has been awful since then too. It's almost like W saw me that day, and thought "Barry looks like he's really coping well and looks great - let me just knock him back down to Earth". I'm sure it wasn't that deliberate but OMG, how did she expect it to make me feel??

I've hardly see the kids lately either (I have talked to them on the phone of course). This is partly because I've been in a bad place emotionally and I don't want them to see me like that any more. It's also that I can't go to my house to see them, we can't relax in my parents house, and I'm so worried about the immediate future that I haven't wanted to spend any money on anything (fun activities with the kids etc) until I know what's going to happen.

I will add here that W has not stopped going out (not with the kids - she hasn't done anything with them), or spending money on herself. She doesn't need to worry about money - only when Barry will be able to come up with a way to get more.

I know it was a stupid thing to do but I sat in front of my W and sobbed my heart out the other night and she litteraly didn't care. Honestly, my W has always been the sort of person to offer comfort to a tramp in the street if she saw someone upset. She's wrecked the only life I ever wanted and I'll never forget that. Maybe one day I'll forgive her...but forget - no chance.

I respectfully dissagree Mozza when you say that I've not been MADE to feel like this. I understand your point in that it's my reaction to it that's the issue but I wouldn't be in the position to make any kind of reaction if W wasn't doing it!!! I'm normally prety good at rolling with the punches in life but this one feels too much like a knock-out blow.

When I spoke of feeling like a sham, it's not that I come here and write things that I think you all want to hear so that you'll send me away with a pat on the back etc. I was trying to say (badly maybe) that not just on this forum but in "the real world" too, I've been trying to "fake it till I make it", or act "as if" I'm accepting all of this. That was also working up to a point, I HAD started to accept it.

If I hadn't been stopped in my tracks by the finance issues, I would have filed already.
The momentum behind my progress came to a screeching halt then.

I'm still in limbo as of today, but I just wanted to say thank you to you all for your concern.
I'll keep you up to date with any changes.

Barry.
Posted By: rd500 Re: Onwards and upwards. - 03/26/15 05:02 PM
Barry. Glad you posted. If your on the ADs then they don't seem to be working This is one of the toughest things you can go through. We all know how you feel but things will get better. Don't hide your feelings on here because the vets will offer constructive advice if they know what's really happening.

It sounds like a cliche but you will be happy again. Take care mate. Rd
Posted By: Barry Re: Onwards and upwards. - 03/26/15 05:39 PM
Thanks for asking about me RD.

I told my GP the same thing about the AD's when I saw him last. He said to stick with them and I'm sure they are doing something. I do have moments of clarity in between everything else. If I'd have got them sooner (last summer) then maybe I wouldn't even be here now...but I didn't, and I am.

The bitch of a best friend has been posting status's on WhatsApp all day today, rubbing my nose in the fact that she and W are so close. She's not stupid, she knows I see them (I actually put one of my own asking her to please stop), but she continues. Her profile pic is always of them two together, and she's just put one on of them practically kissing. I hate her so much.
That bitch better not dare to speak to me ever again.

This is partly why I know there is no chance of R between W and I.
Unless she moves away or dies, this friend is always going to be around muddying the waters and sticking the boot in. Yes...I'm bitter.

It's W's birthday in a couple of weeks (this is the same day that I moved home last year coincidentally). I won't be sending a card, buying a gift or anything like that. In fact, I've arranged to go and stay with a friend for a few days instead. I did that so I didn't have the option of standing out in the cold for hours waiting to see if she brings someone home (as I did before) when she goes out clubbing with her new, younger, single friends.

I need to get away from here.
Posted By: rd500 Re: Onwards and upwards. - 03/26/15 05:47 PM
Barry. Do you see an I/C ? It's so tough but you have to move on with your life. Delete the app. Detach. You have no idea of what will happen over he next while. All the feelings you have are normal but do you want to live your life feeling this way ? Please get some help mate. I have an L/C , family, friends and I still struggle. My W is never happy, always crying and I got the house for now) and my kids. Without all these things my head would explode.

Ignore the best mate , delete / ignore Instagram. You need to detach. Barry is worth than this. I wish I had words to make this right for you but you will get there

Take care. Rd
Posted By: Sotto Re: Onwards and upwards. - 03/26/15 05:54 PM
Wise RD is right Barry.

WhatsApp = self-flagellation. I would delete the app right now and walk proud. You don't need to see that stuff...
Posted By: Barry Re: Onwards and upwards. - 03/26/15 06:23 PM
Of course you're right, I've deleted it twice already since Christmas.
I've got rid of it again now, and have deleted the friends number from my phone so even if I put it back on, I can't see anything. W has me blocked on everything already. I have to stop all of this though.
Posted By: HeavyD Re: Onwards and upwards. - 03/26/15 06:51 PM
Barry

Glad you posted. Yes, this all blows. I hear that and feel that.

Glad to know you have deleted those stupid apps they will only bring you down. I deleted my FB, Instagram, all of that Chit. I just don't want my nose rubbed in it and who knows, maybe she is doing it on pupose just to push your buttons. Don't give her that power man.

If I were you, I would harness all of the anger and bitterness into action - action for you. That would be good for you and who knows where it will lead you? Examples, anger is good at fueling workouts, etc... Channel some of this emotion that will bring your positive results for YOU.

See your kids, it's OK for them to see you are having a tough time, but let them see how a loving father handles chit that life throws. Show them how a real man handles adversity, with courage and confidence and love. They will notice and this will give them guidance for their older years when they are going through a crisis.

Plus playing with the kids is a great way to take off anger and refocuses your mind onto something else. Going to the park costs nothing, so does kicking a ball around, go to the library, play puzzles - so many things to do that don't cost anything. Do it for them and do it for you. Refocus your energy onto you and your kids. They need you.

You are stronger than what you think you are, now you just have to BELIEVE IT.

You can do this Barry!!
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: Onwards and upwards. - 03/27/15 08:56 AM
Originally Posted By: Barry
Hi Toots, I'm sure that will be the case with her family. I'd like to stay in touch with them all really.
If they don't want to, then I'll respect that of course.

SIL was saying how horrible it was at Christmas (you're telling me it was!!), as we'd always got together as a family for such a long time. Obviously those sort of things won't happen again,


I feel compelled to interject here^^^. You are now predicting the future, and negatively too. I don't get it.

I have a former sil whom I love very much - and with whom I REMAIN CLOSE. I've gone on vacations with her (and her new h!!) and with both our families.

BACKSTORY - My older brother divorced her b/c he was a fool, and he broke her heart. I would never turn my back on her.

Fortunately my brother did not ask us to do that. Sure, it's less often that we see each other, there are potentially awkward moments (which DO lessen with time), but we have made an effort to keep in touch and so, we do.

It's very feasible. Make it happen. Forget the victim status and please please do not spin your wife's words.

She did NOT say "no". On the contrary, she said "THEY could make their own decision."

I mean, short of her asking them to remain in contact with you, what was it you wanted her to say that she did not say?

but the occaional phone call, text, or even visit would be nice.
I've never really thought of them as HER family, they've been ours and we have been close.

W has avoided my family like the plague up to know. None of them have seen her since before Christmas and she told me she actually hid from my parents recently. Obviously it's awkward for W, she's the one who wants to split up and she's hurt me deeply so my family are angry with her. W says she doesn't care...yes W, I know you don't!!


but the good news is you do not have to know or guess her reasons.

because the reasons don't matter
. So....BACK TO YOU NOW....


Of course if the shoe was on the other foot and I wanted the split and she'd spent 3 months in deep depression, HER family would almost certainly not want to talk to me either.So I understand why my parents are being the way they are. They don't say much to me about her to be honest. They know I don't like bad things said about her.



Here^^, I crossed thru what sounds like more negative speculation on your part, since you evidently have not been told any of it...

As you can see, there is a lot of "Stinking thinking" that goes into your take on things. Let's work on that attitude, okay?

Maybe you can begin to TALK more with people in your interactions.

I hope that's something you get out of this ordeal. Really, I do.


This is just another one of the sad results of divorce I guess, dealing with ex-in laws too. It's not nice, but then hey, no-one says divorce is a fun thing!!
Ultimatley, my old life is gone (but not forgotten). Time to move on with my kids into what I hope will be an exciting future.


Well, those sisters in law and brothers in law and your in laws are STILL your children's uncles and aunts and grandparents.

Nurture those relationships as well as you can for the sake of your children, AND b/c it's the right thing to do

(And yes, b/c you want to Keep the Road Home, Paved & Smooth)...

AND b/c those in-laws have been deeply saddened by this.

Like your sil crying... SHE FELT SAD that your m was ending -- and you told her not be sad. (??)

I don't get your reaction at all.

When my soon to be ex sister in law cried when my brother left her, it was partly b/c she felt she was losing all of us. "Losing the whole family", - we meant a lot to her.

I reassured her that it was not true; we'd always be sisters. That meant so much to her.

Seems to me your SIL fears the loss of you, and the decrease in seeing her niece/nephew.
Might be nice for you to reassure them that you are not dropping off the face of the earth. Don't punish them (or your kids) because you are hurt.

Make sense?
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: Onwards and upwards. - 03/27/15 10:59 AM
Originally Posted By: Barry
Hello everyone.
Thank you all for your kind words of advice and comfort.

I didn't intend to alarm anyone with talk of suicide, or play the victim. As I say, the thoughts of my kids always stop me in my tracks. I'll be honest though in that if I didn't have them, there's a big chance I wouldn't have made it this far. I actually find that hard to digest. Surely I shouldn't want to live "just" because of my children, but that's what it's been like for me recently.
I can totally see how people get to the stage that they do it.


I understand this^^. Glad you are alright. We have lost a few DBers and spouses to suicide here on DB and its' a real blow to so many more people than they could ever know.

The fact that our kids are "The Only" reason to live has probably saved many lives, temporarily at least. I have seen the effects of suicide on families and it's horrific.

Ironically, it's also never produced what I assume the desired effect was. In one case, when our good friend lost his father to suicide after his wife left him, the kids were angry at him. Why weren't then enough for him? Why did he give up? Why wasn't he living a more fulfilling life, that one loss would so devastate him?

As for his x wife, to be blunt, she seemed fairly relieved and a bit sad...but None of us heard an ounce of self doubt about her choice to leave; by God, I think she felt the suicide validated her choice to leave.

But as you yourself can see, there must be more than our reliance on a relationship, to sustain our lives. The "more to life than our children" issue -- is ours to solve. It's not someone else's job to fill our lives or to give it or us meaning, we are in charge of our own happiness.

If your w had remained with you, would the kids AND her - be the "only" reasons to live? I hope not, but essentially, that is what you are implying by the statements.

Do you see my point?

Your wife's absence & divorce cannot ruin YOUR life - b/c it's YOUR LIFE TO LIVE and in truth, [i]she was never supposed to be in charge of your life or your happiness. It was always your job and always yours alone. Similarly, if SHE is happy that is not taking an ounce of happiness FROM you.
Her emotional state is NOT an index to yours.

If HER car breaks down, yours is not a faster, more expensive care BECAUSE of it--- these facts are not related. You must stop competing with your perception of her demeanor.

Aristotle said "Happiness is a virtue" and now I can see he meant was that it takes effort to be happy.

Happiness does not "land" on us, we create it, we nurture it, we balance it and we work to maintain it.
[/i]
The resentment you feel about her bff, though it's easy to understand, also strikes me as something you might want to look at someday...inwardly.

Meaning, maybe the bff was Not needy around your w. Maybe your w felt she could open up to her bff more, about fears, dreams, goals, incidents etc

b/c there was no danger of the bff getting worried or needier or judgmental or insecure, about any disclosures your w might make.

I read that "Disclosure builds intimacy" which is a tip that many people in politics and negotiations use to build rapport. I certainly believe it. If someone does not feel safe in disclosing things, then they'll go elsewhere.

You do seem to see things very negatively at this stage of your life. That will need to change. Yes Barry, it's not easy. We of all people know that it really stinks to be in your situation. So it's time to avail yourself of all the resources you can.

So, is your IC helping you? I know your GP said to stick wth the AD's but did you discuss possibly upping the dose? (Sorry if I missed that in the thread but I can't recall if you told your Doctor that you were feeling this badly, even now).

Not sure if I suggested this to you before, but there are 2 videos on youtube, on TED TALKS (2012 I think). They are about how to MAKE ourselves happier and there is solid empirical data they present to demonstrate this. One talk is by AMY CUDDY and the other is by SHAWN ACHOR, and each is about 20 min. Very entertaining and very enlightening.

I think you'll get a lot out of it, if you let yourself.


I'm already on anti-depressants...strong ones. I have been since Christmas. I see my GP regularly, I've been seeing an IC (although I have taken a break from it at her suggestion to attend an Emotional Wellbeing Course at my local college).


this^^^ sounds potentially very cool.

If you ever get a chance to come to the US, try the personal growth workshop called "Essential Experience" in Philadelphia. (Also called "EE").

It is quite literally, LIFE ALTERING. Several DBers have gone and we all got so much out of it. PowerOfNow, Autumn Leaves, Lucky Luke, me, my h (and he's not the workshop type) ALL HIGHLY recommend it.

I've been to a few types and "EE" is, by far, the most profound. (Another good one you might be closer to, is called "Life Spring" and i think they are international.)

For me and my work, a long weekend in which one can identify a problem area with exercises we cannot BS our way through, but must identify and process (B/C I for one tend to "edit" my reactions or rehearse them, and that's not always intentional. So I NEED to have exercises in which I discover things about myself I might not have wanted to...)

Finally, we create an action plan to work on our issues and to resolve them! WHAT???? Yes it's true.

So we'd finish the weekend with a strategy for creating a more fulfilling, more "Intentional" life.

Plus, the IC I had (a wonderful woman) was great. However when I'd make a break through or have a solid new insight, usually the time was almost up so I'd have to stop the work and go get the toddlers or go back to work. it was hard to recall it the next week's session. So for me, the weekly therapy, at times, was too fragmented.

So long weekends for workshops became the most efficient way for us to resolve a lot of conflicts AND OR painful items within. Definitely check out the Essential Experience website.

And do let us know how the Emotional Well being program is!


I've been reading the books and talking to trusted close friends and family. I've had little to NC with W and it was all helping to a degree. I really felt like I was DB'ing well, and I felt as good as could be expected right up to the day that W made me this offer to buy her out of our home.

We'd initially agreed on a six month separation (obviously I hoped that we would R at the end of this period, or at least make a start on piecing),


Not to beat a dead horse but....expectations are NOT helping you (or your wife or the situation, and certainly neither is continued pleading with her....You know this. Yet you inflict pain on yourself again and again...


but she didn't even get a third of the way through that before letting me know she wanted out. I found it really difficult to deal with that and it really knocked me back to day one again. I've struggled ever since then really.

My GAL has been terrible lately. I've had no energy, no zest for life, just sadness and heartache. I know GAL works as it got me through the first 6 weeks - I need to get back to that, but without ANY thoughts of R now. It's just not going to happen.


Not sure what you mean here^^^. But I think you are saying you need to GAL without hitching it to a r with your wife --ie you must NOT attach expectations, (which is so true)

but if you were really GAL (and not merely using another tactic to get a scrap of attention from her) then, she would not factor in here, at all...

AND that would not mean you had given up....

Barry am I talking to a plate here? I mean no offense by that, but I have said this til I"m blue in the face.

Maybe you do not really believe this....but I'll "gently remind you" anyhow, again, that

you cannot heal without Detaching and you cannot detach without GAL


My PMA (needless to say) has been awful since then too. It's almost like W saw me that day, and thought "Barry looks like he's really coping well and looks great - let me just knock him back down to Earth". I'm sure it wasn't that deliberate but OMG, how did she expect it to make me feel??

Well I bet she did Not expect you to feel WORSE. She cannot be held responsible for your sickness or your car/money problems, or the things that go wrong in all normal people's lives, forever. She wanted out of the marriage and you know that you played a role in that desire.

This^^ doesn't make you a "Loser" but it also does not make her a b1tch.

Do you get ^^this? You must MUST Disconnect her appearance and comments and apparent well being, from Yours.


I've hardly see the kids lately either (I have talked to them on the phone of course). This is partly because I've been in a bad place emotionally and I don't want them to see me like that any more. It's also that I can't go to my house to see them, we can't relax in my parents house, and I'm so worried about the immediate future

Your fears and discomfort cannot prevent you from seeing your children, unless you choose to live your life & make your choices based on FEAR...a sad, bad choice to make, don't you think?

No offense Barry but, can you see how that ^^ non approach (avoidant) might be like a partial suicide? OR maybe be seen as punitive? Your kids are already losing so much and your main job is damage control, for you & for THEM too...

Your kids' needs must outweigh your fears and discomfort.
The sooner, the better. TRULY.

that I haven't wanted to spend any money on anything (fun activities with the kids etc) until I know what's going to happen.


You think that^^ is a good reason Not to see your kids? Barry, you are now officially wallowing - and you must snap yourself out of that quagmire. Avail yourself of the resources around you asap, please!

PS -- no one knows what is going to happen. Not one of us.


I will add here that W has not stopped going out (not with the kids - she hasn't done anything with them), or spending money on herself. She doesn't need to worry about money - only when Barry will be able to come up with a way to get more.


Can you stop looking in the rear view mirror for status checks on her? When did that ever improve your situation?


I know it was a stupid thing to do but I sat in front of my W and sobbed my heart out the other night and she litteraly didn't care. Honestly, my W has always been the sort of person to offer comfort to a tramp in the street if she saw someone upset.


Why do You think you chose to demonstrate your grief and needs to her, again?
Why are you now "interpreting" her reaction?

Sounds like she was super uncomfortable (not necessarily guilt ridden either).

OR maybe she felt manipulated b/c clearly you did have expectations of her when she saw your tears. IF sobbing in front of her was a test, I'd say stop testing, but I have a feeling you "need" to keep doing this but I don't know why.


IF it was a desperate attempt to get her back, then you must like cheeseless tunnels. Crying to her has not once given you what you wanted. The most you have begged out of her was the concession that some of the marriage had been good...

Barry maybe you can explore this behavior with your IC. The imploring and exhortations of her to return in the face of her evident certainty that she does Not want to return, seems self destructive.

Barry, this behavior consistently makes you feel worse.

Man, if this is not new behavior of yours then you need to really look at it as at least one reason for you being here as a LBH. (i.e. repeating same behaviors but expecting a different result).

IF it is new behavior, then go back to who you were before.


She's wrecked the only life I ever wanted and I'll never forget that. Maybe one day I'll forgive her...but forget - no chance



Wow, Barry, please Stop the blame game.

Truly If I thought it was helping you detach, maybe I'd indulge it.
But it's Not helping you, at all.

Seems indulgent of you to use your wife's rejection as an excuse to blame her for how you live your life, forever. And for not seeing your kids more...

Do you know how many men on these boards do not get to see their kids except 2 weekends a month? OR how many men and women have their kids taken away from them, when their WAS move FAR away?

When you are operating in fear & self pity- you are NOT operating in faith, hope or love.

Do you think, looking back now, that you may have made your happiness HER responsibility?

B/c you certainly are now.




I respectfully dissagree Mozza when you say that I've not been MADE to feel like this. I understand your point in that it's my reaction to it that's the issue but I wouldn't be in the position to make any kind of reaction if W wasn't doing it!!! I'm normally prety good at rolling with the punches in life but this one feels too much like a knock-out blow.

None of this ^^ is new. Let's be fair and objective for a moment..

Given the givens, she has been almost as well behaved as any WAW can be, and you have conceded as much in the past.

I know It stinks to hear how "lucky" you are at a time like this. Believe me, I heard how "Lucky" i was to have a profession and healthy kids, etc;... but if you need reminders, then take the time to read a few lousy situations on this board, and you'll know it is true.

Of course it hurts to be rejected. We know! Dear God, how we know...

but still we must all do a few things for others or ourselves, even when our heart is breaking.

We/You must keep the wounded ego & injured pride at bay. Stop blaming your w for You not seeing your kids b/c You don't feel happy enough...that is on you.
See them asap and as much as you can b/c their needs are higher now, than ever.

Yes, you must step up to the plate and take care of and comfort THEM. And stop looking over your shoulder to compete or compare with your w...for your own sake and for your children's.


When I spoke of feeling like a sham, it's not that I come here and write things that I think you all want to hear so that you'll send me away with a pat on the back etc. I was trying to say (badly maybe) that not just on this forum but in "the real world" too, I've been trying to "fake it till I make it", or act "as if" I'm accepting all of this. That was also working up to a point, I HAD started to accept it.

If I hadn't been stopped in my tracks by the finance issues, I would have filed already.
The momentum behind my progress came to a screeching halt then.


That's fine, we understand. But as far as I can tell, she did nothing to make it worse

so she's not really relevant to this additional bump in the road.
Turning every obstacle or bad event into something "She caused" b/c she left you, will get you nowhere fast. And aren't you tired of feeling stuck?

You need to get back on the GAL/DETACHMENT horse and start riding...


I'm still in limbo as of today, but I just wanted to say thank you to you all for your concern.
I'll keep you up to date with any changes.


Barry.


Please do keep us informed. AND PLEASE check out the TED TALK videos on youtube (Amy Cuddy and Shawn Achor if I haven't already said their names) on creating authentic happiness in our own lives.

Instead of waiting to "Feel better" and THEN doing something...

we can begin behaving in new ways and THEN feel better...

And see the website for Essential Experience in case you come across the pond, and or see if the "Life spring" workshop has something in the UK.

Good luck Barry!

PS Yes I know 2 family members who divorced and remarried their former spouses a few years later and yes they were happier the second time around.

In both cases, each spouse improved as partners and made changes.

I'm not sure about who made what move back towards remarrying, but I don't believe any of them expected to reconcile, when they divorced.

Posted By: Barry Re: Onwards and upwards. - 03/27/15 04:07 PM
Hi 25years,

Thanks for your insightful response. There's a lot for me to think about there but in general, it's all pretty much accurate.
I'll respond to some of the questions you've asked later on when I've thought about it more. I'll take a look at those videos too.

I spoke to my financial advisors this afternoon who, as yet, haven't been able to secure me a mortgage deal (dissapointing but not entirely unexpected). They are continuing to try and sort it out and hopefully I'll know either way next week.

On a lighter note, I've had a much better day today - apart from that ^^ call. I've arranged to take all the kids out for a meal on Sunday evening too. They think we're going to one of our usual hang-outs but I've something better planned for us.
I've been speaking to them lots on the phone/texting obviously so we are in contact a lot.

My D16's prom dress came yesterday too (shipped in from the USA), she looks stunning in it...she should do for the price tag! smile
Posted By: Georgiabelle Re: Onwards and upwards. - 03/27/15 05:06 PM
Barry,

I'm sorry you are having such a difficult time and are feeling a bit better. I'm happy that you are seeing a doctor and 25 and Raliced posted some wise words to you.

I don't mean this in a cavalier manner as suicide is a very difficult topic. Life is truly short. Please know that you CAN work through this. I know it sukks-I do. Your life has taken a turn and while not what you "*wanted*, the opportunity for a wonderful, fulfilling life is right before you.

Bet D looks smashing. Take care!
Posted By: Sotto Re: Onwards and upwards. - 03/27/15 09:25 PM
Barry, in case it is of any interest, I have used London & Country mortgage brokers (by phone) a couple of times and found them to be excellent (Anita in particular.)

If your adviser doesn't come back with a positive, perhaps they are worth a try. Obviously I don't know about your circumstances, but there are the sub-prime lenders too - like First Choice, GE Money and Precise. Obviously, you don't get the best rate with them, but they are more flexible in terms of financial circumstances than other lenders.

You aren't looking at a huge sum, so hopefully it is doable in some way.

Take care Barry :-)
Posted By: Barry Re: Onwards and upwards. - 03/29/15 11:47 AM
Hi all.

I may have come up with an alternative solution to my financial difficulties so I can take WAW's offer. I won't elaborate just yet as it's still in the early stages...but I have a new plan. Hopefully I can update with some good news soon, it'd take such a weight off my mind.

I have all 4 kids this evening. This'll be the first time since Christmas Day that I've got them all together. I know that sounds crazy but it's because S20 lives away, is at Uni, and works. S18 works shifts so is only available 1 week out of 3. D16 has dance classes 3 nights a week (and has a new boyfriend), and S13..well, he's just always out with his mates. They're not little any more.

I've planned a meal out in a fantastic restaurant that they're going to love, then we're going bowling for the evening. We all enjoy that and don't do it often enough. I can't wait smile
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: Onwards and upwards. - 03/29/15 05:47 PM
Sounds like a wonderful evening.


And you are creating it. Well done!

cool
Posted By: Barry Re: Onwards and upwards. - 04/01/15 03:40 PM
Afternoon all.

I've not had much time to update things over the last few days..I've been busying myself GAL smile , so here I am!
I'm doing much better now, and as always, you're encouragement, advice and kind words have been a real help to me.

As I briefly mentioned in an earlier post, I'm now ecstatic to be able to confirm that I DO have a way to get over my financial hurdles. I actually have three options available to me now (from just one unlikely one just a week ago!!). There are pros and cons with all three, but I have a week or so to wait until the third option is clarified so no major decision needs to be made right now.
It's nice to know that I won't lose my home, even though I'm still losing my W.

I've had NC with her other than to let her know by text that I will be able to take her up on the offer. Polite response back just saying thanks for letting her know. She needs time to be able to find somewhere to live too so I said I'd keep her up to date with things.

I haven't filed for D as yet, it's probably going to be next week, once I confirm which option of the three I'm going with. I'm not looking forward to that but it has to be done. Timescale wise, it's looking like around 8 weeks before I can have the consent order filed and approved by the courts - at which time, she can have her money and move out of my house.
I can go home then - I can't wait to have my own space back and spend more quality time with the kids. I've already started thinking about some plans for the house and a few things that I'm going to arrange with the kids to bring us closer again.

My weekend was amazing. I sorted out the above, and had a fab time with the kids on Sunday evening. We had a lovely meal, went bowling, played pool, air hockey...alsorts. I took some really nice photo's as I realised that there are very few recent ones of me and the kids on our own. I was predominantly the one who took the photos as they were growing up so I have loads of WW with them. Don't get me wrong, they're lovely photo's of them with their Mum but I just wanted some of us on our own.

My sister told me about an app where you can get 45 photos per month for just the price of shipping. She's used it for a long time and has hundreds. They are brilliant quality. I got 10 completly free so they are on their way, and I'm going to have lots printed over the next few months. We have lots of family photo's but many are stored digitally (I will be giving WW a copy of all of them). I'm going to pick a few of my favourites and have them enlarged on canvas's etc for when I re-decorate the house. I'm actually getting some for WW too, of her and the kids - maybe a family one too that she can take to her new place. I'm sure she'll appreciate that.

There is something else too.

I will admit that I joined a few of the more well known dating sites about a week ago. Not so much to actively look for a date (I was actually seeing if WW was on any of them - she's not, or at least not under her real name or photo) and I've put against my profiles that I'm just looking to make new friends. That is true after all. I have used my name and photo so of course, maybe she will hear about it but hey, she's fired me as her husband so doesn't really have a say in what I do now.

Anyway, on Sunday, a very attracive woman messaged me saying hi, and we've been chatting since then. I'm extremly flattered that a woman that looks like she does is interested in me, and it's put a real spring in my step to be honest. We haven't discussed dating at all, we've just been talking about our lives in general. I have talked a little about my sitch so she knows that it's all still fresh. She's around my age, and sounds really interesting and kind. I'm very tempted to ask her to meet for a coffee (in the daytime) to see her in person. Ultimatly, it is only coffee but it could potentially cause problems if WW finds out.

Thoughts on this guys?

Barry.
Posted By: Barry Re: Onwards and upwards. - 04/04/15 02:06 PM
I decided not to by the way guys, I'm not ready.
Posted By: Sotto Re: Onwards and upwards. - 04/04/15 06:54 PM
Wise choice Barry. All in good time, and much in the way of fun and new experiences to be had in the meantime.

Have a good Easter! :-)
Posted By: Barry Re: Onwards and upwards. - 04/07/15 12:51 AM
Just a quick post to say there's nothing to update regarding the sitch. My WW continues to act as if I've disappeared off the face of the Earth. I don't know how she does it. It's heartbreaking but I have no more tears left.

I've had a nice few days over Easter, saw all the kids as usual at the weekends and sorted them all out with things they needed - yet another car for my S18!, mobile phone for S13, cash for S20 (typical student), and it was a lovely sunny day here today so I picked my D16 up and we went for a long drive in the country with the top down, and had lunch in the park.
I've visited friends and family and also arranged with SIL that I'll go and visit in a couple of weeks time to see my nieces.
Looking forward to that.

Although it was really nice today, I couldn't help wishing that W were with me so I was a little sad. I didn't let D16 see. I couldn't help thinking it would have been a perfect day to visit a quaint village we used to go to, and sit by the river eating ice creams. Those were the days my friend we thought they'd never end...sigh.

I'm told W and her BFF are going off for tattoo's tomorrow, it wouldn't surprise me at all if they were matching ones. I know I shouldn't have an opinion or let any of this bother me any more, I don't even know why it does. I think it's partly because tomorrow will be a year to the day when I asked the BFF to back off (whilst we were separated), and the day after, I moved home.
That's not going to happen this year.

I wasn't going to send anything for W's Bday but I think that looks like I'm bitter (which lets be fair, I still am).
I have a simple card for W, no soppy message inside etc, but I'm considering getting her a card with "Wife" on it instead - it'll be the last I give her. What do you guys think?

She'll be out on the town next weekend, so I've arranged to go and stay with friends in a different city.
I can't be standing around in the cold all night again. I don't think there's anything I can do at this stage that will help, but doing that again certainly won't.

I wish I could let go completely.
Posted By: Sotto Re: Onwards and upwards. - 04/07/15 08:05 AM
Hi Barry, sounds like you're doing pretty well - and glad you had a good weekend, even though it was bittersweet at times.

Just my 0.2 on the card. I think it's fine to send one, but I certainly wouldn't send a 'wife' one. Maybe just a more neutral card, with a message to say 'many happy returns - enjoy yourself on your Birthday!' Or something similarly neutral.....

It takes time to let her go completely, but you've come a long way already, and if you read back over your early posts, you'll see that....

Take care, T :-)
Posted By: Barry Re: Onwards and upwards. - 04/07/15 11:11 AM
Thanks for checking in on me Toots, I feel well enough in myself at the moment, I'm slightly nervous about the rollercoaster though.

Right now, I'm mentally preparing myself for the impending D proceedings and all of the heartache that it's going to cause. As I've said before, the thing that hurts the most is that my W shows no emotion whatsoever regarding our sitch - she's almost robotic in her extremly limited communication with me. It's like our lives together have had so little worth to her.
She can't or won't offer any comfort to me because she thinks (and she's probably right) that it will give me hope when there is none.

Many people have said to me that I don't know for sure that she's not upset, and that she could be crying herself to sleep at night over all of this. I admit that it's possible, but I think it's highly unlikely.
When I told her I'd be filing on the 15th April, I said she didn't have very long to stop me from doing it so to think about it carefully.
I realise this was temperature checking but at this stage, I don't need to check, it's sub-zero.

She's not going to stop me...I know that really but I needed to tell her that just if for my own sake.
I have to feel like I've given her every opportunity to call this off.

I think you're right about the card, I should keep it simple. That's the one I bought to start with so I should go with that.

I didn't mention this in my previous post but I know I'm nowhere near ready for dating because I went for dinner on Friday with an old friend from school (a divorced woman).

It wasn't a date, but it was a meal in a restaurant with a woman other than my W. It felt alien to me to sit there with no wedding ring on with another woman. There was no attraction on my part but she obviously felt differently as I recieved a text the next day with romantic overtones in it. I've spoken with her and said that although I'm flattered by it, I'm not in the right place for anything like that. She's fine with it and there's no awkwardness about it. I enjoyed seeing an old friend and the meal, it was a good exercise to see how it would be on a date. I wouldn't like it at this stage and maybe not for a long time to come.

One thing my friend did say to me is that she could see that I was doing well in detaching from W, but that when W does eventually meet someone else, it's still going to hurt. She's right, it will. I can't look at a photo or see W in person without still thinking of her as my woman. That day is going to come, and I just hope I'm strong enough to cope with it when it does.

I'd like to thank you (all) for your continued support. I still need it, even though my M is most probably a lost cause.
I do try to chip in on others sitch's where I feel it appropriate, but find it difficult to offer any really helpful advice to save a M.
I haven't been able to do that, but I am saving myself.

Take care, Barry.
Posted By: Kramer Re: Onwards and upwards. - 04/07/15 02:19 PM
Keep working on yourself, Barry. You seem to be making good progress with detaching. It's so hard to do so "lovingly", without coming across as needy or pursuing. I think we all see the value in detachment for our own well being, but it is tough.
Posted By: Mozza Re: Onwards and upwards. - 04/07/15 02:48 PM
Barry, you must have been missing me because it looks like you're baiting me to post. laugh

Originally Posted By: Barry
I couldn't help thinking it would have been a perfect day to visit a quaint village we used to go to, and sit by the river eating ice creams. Those were the days my friend we thought they'd never end...sigh.

Could it be that your idealize the past? Those days were also very hard, with the separation and tension and bad sex an more. It's fine to remember the good times, but not if it takes us away from a fair assessment of the M. sandi2 also tells people that they shouldn't focus on how much they loved their WAS because it brings them no good. I know I've stopped because every time I do, I cry. Also, not repeating it helps to take some distance from it.

Originally Posted By: Barry
I'm told W and her BFF are going off for tattoo's tomorrow, it wouldn't surprise me at all if they were matching ones. I know I shouldn't have an opinion or let any of this bother me any more, I don't even know why it does.

I suspect it bothers you for two reasons. First, you idealize what is happening to your W. Second, you haven't created a fun life for yourself. You've seen what I wrote on my thread and on stacey9's. Instead of forcing you to do anything, can you think of what you really like doing and do a little more of that? Once you align your life with what you love, you can't envy anyone else's life.

Originally Posted By: Barry
I wasn't going to send anything for W's Bday but I think that looks like I'm bitter (which lets be fair, I still am).

No, it won't look like you're bitter. It will look like you're moving on which is exactly what you're supposed to do. She will not be pleased with your card, she will just see it, sigh and think: "He really can't let go. Poor guy." If, IF, you manage not to send anything, she MIGHT notice (maybe not) and have the beginning of a doubt that maybe you're not always, always trying to convince her to come back. Then she'll listen to you more.

Originally Posted By: Barry
As I've said before, the thing that hurts the most is that my W shows no emotion whatsoever regarding our sitch - she's almost robotic in her extremly limited communication with me. It's like our lives together have had so little worth to her.

It was the same for me and it's also what hurt me the most. She looked at me with complete indifference. It's one of the reasons I cut off almost all contacts because I don't want to face it again. I can see two reasons for that. The first one is that our WWs have detached months ago. For the, the S was the end of the road, for us it's the beginning. So don't think that it happened overnight. The second reason is that they see our emotions as manipulative. And in your case, they still are because you really try to convince her to come back. You're not detached and you look for words or actions that will bring her back.

Originally Posted By: Barry
When I told her I'd be filing on the 15th April, I said she didn't have very long to stop me from doing it so to think about it carefully. I realise this was temperature checking but at this stage, I don't need to check, it's sub-zero. She's not going to stop me...I know that really but I needed to tell her that just if for my own sake.

Barry, you're not supposed to say such things because it reduces your chances to R. I don't think that's clear to you. You seem to want to R very much, yet you do these things repeatedly. Reaching out to your W like this is needy and women are repulsed by neediness.

I recommend that your read the chapters 1 and 2 of Models, by Mark Manson. These chapters explain, based on research and experience, what attracts women. You really need to understand this deep down. Now you're acting like the desperate nerdy guy with big glasses in high school who keeps bringing gifts to the head cheerleader who told him No seventeen times in seventeen ways. There is no way your W will go for it. Every intervention sets you back further.

Originally Posted By: Barry
I have to feel like I've given her every opportunity to call this off.

You "have to feel" it? Then you can feel it right now because you have done it. She knows perfectly she can come back anytime and that's why she's leaving without fear. If it gets cold out there, if she sees you in a new light, if she realizes you're a catch, she knows you'll drop everything for her. She's free to explore the world safely then! For sure, she won't come back and realize that another woman has realized what a wonderful man you are and she'll be stuck with the leftovers.

Originally Posted By: Barry
I'd like to thank you (all) for your continued support. I still need it, even though my M is most probably a lost cause.

Well, you haven't been helping it with your begging and pleading to your W, but it's not a lost cause. You just can't judge it at this stage. Your sitch looks like any other sitch, it's just more real to you. But believe me, the sitches of Labug, 25yearsmlc, T0324, Train and all other vets who reconciled also looked this bad in the middle. Stop thinking and saying that it's a lost cause.

You're doing a lot of things right, Barry. You seem to be taking good care of your kids. Your ideas are clear about finance and the future. You just need to get your interactions with your WAW under control and you'll be a stellar DBer, saving yourself and leaving options open for the M. Go for it!
Posted By: Train Re: Onwards and upwards. - 04/07/15 06:49 PM
^^^^ x 2.
Posted By: Mozza Re: Onwards and upwards. - 04/09/15 03:25 PM
Hey Barry,

This is from two weeks ago but it keeps bugging me.

Originally Posted By: Barry
I respectfully dissagree Mozza when you say that I've not been MADE to feel like this. I understand your point in that it's my reaction to it that's the issue but I wouldn't be in the position to make any kind of reaction if W wasn't doing it!!!

It's a trigger, but the reaction is still yours. Of course, I would expect your reaction to be negative, but the extent of it is yours, it's under your control. You can't blame her for that.

Imagine someone made a dent in your new car. You see it, you throw a fit, you get angry, you tell everyone how drivers are assholes, you still talk about the dent a week and a month later, every time you pass by your car, your blood boils. So, is it the fault of the guy who made the dent that you're so angry?

I'm not trying to guilt you for your reaction. In fact, I'm pretty extreme myself. I'm just trying to make you more aware that you have more control over it than you realize. If you're like me, you may even think deep down that the intensity of your reaction proves that she's wrong. We know it doesn't.
Posted By: Barry Re: Onwards and upwards. - 04/15/15 10:26 AM
Hi all.

Just a very quick post to say I'm still around, but have been too busy to update anything or catch up on other sitch's.
Had a good week with lots of GAL activities (will update better when I can), but the main thing to tell you is that today is D-day for me.

I'm filing today.

Take care, Barry.
Posted By: Barry Re: Onwards and upwards. - 04/16/15 03:25 PM
So it's started.

I thought I was going to struggle with filing to be honest, and was absolutely dreading it up until a week ago.
I haven't been being strong enough up to now..I know that myself and as most of you know too, I've had emotional outbursts every few weeks which have left me feeling utterly drained. I feel different now....better.

I treated it like an unpleasant but necessary business transaction in the end, and do you know what, Im actually ok with it.

A few weeks ago, I'd found some examples of unreasonable behaviour that the UK courts accept on a regular basis and had copied a few down. I wasn't even that concerned how true they were at the time, just that they would be accepted.
As I went through it all though, I realised that actually, WW DID do a lot of these things and in fact, was unreasonable.

I think I've said it here before that I always felt that my W was too good for me. As it turns out, it's HER that doesn't deserve me.
Ive even started to feel just a bit excited about the future.

Im going to be fine, the kids will be too. I don't know about W, she will have to find her own way now like I have.

Barry.
Posted By: Mozza Re: Onwards and upwards. - 04/16/15 03:37 PM
Thanks for updating us. I'm glad that your filing was easier than expected. You've come a very long way since your initial panic at BD.

It's fine if it helps you to think that your WW doesn't deserve you. At this stage, I guess it can help you detach and go through the motions. It's true that just one person left, doesn't mean that they did no wrong. It's just that they reached their threshold before we did. At the same time, be understanding of other people's failings. We're all flawed and will never be the perfect partner. By the look of your family, it seems like your W was long intent on building a stable family, in good faith, but lost the will before you did.
Posted By: Barry Re: Onwards and upwards. - 04/17/15 03:16 PM
Hi all.

I do feel I've come a long way, although it's been a hard and rocky road. I haven't helped myself or my sitch at times either.

When I say she doesn't deserve me, I mean she doesn't deserve my love or loyalty as a spouse any more. She's the mother of my children and we've had a good life together so I'll probably always feel "something" for her, just not love in the real sense of the word. She said she doesn't care for ME in any way now. That obviously hurts me deeply because she's saying that the last 23 years have meant nothing to her and the fact that I'm the father of her kids is just coincidental. I've a feeling that she is making herself be that way so that she can see this through to the very end without any thoughts of R.

As hurtfull as that was to hear her say (and it really was), it's helped my detachment no end, and for real this time.
I honestly didn't think it was possible for a person to change so much, which is one big lesson I'm taking from this.

You're right Mozza, I don't think my W ever planned to do this in any way. We talked about a stable family life and our future as a couple right up to BD. The intention was always to stay together but as you say, she lost the will before I did.

To use your analogy above Mozza, our car has been dented twice now and we've tried to buff them out both times.
She wants to scrap the car instead now. Sad but true.

I'd forgotten how much GAL helps in detaching. I'd been neglectful of that in the last few weeks. I was too busy attending my pity party that had a crowd of one. I put a stop to that 10 days ago. I've been doing lots with the kids, visiting existing friends (and made some great new ones too) and family in the last couple of weeks. My social circle is expanding nicely.

I've been invited on two holidays!, and been told by five or six women that I'm quite the catch and a lot of women would be thrilled to be with me. All good confidence boosters of course.

I've actually been asked out on a date one evening next week by a woman who's a friend of a friend. She's attractive, funny, single (divorced) and appears to be quite smitten with me. To be fair, I was flirting a little with her on a night out with a big group of friends.
I was really just trying it on for size.

She knows the basics of my sitch from her friend and realises that it's quite soon for me. When she asked me, she said she'd like it to be a date but if I prefered, I could just look at it as some food with a new friend. I think I'm going to go with that attitude to be honest. I did tell her that I needed to sort myself, the kids, the house, and get my life back on track before I had another relationship.
I don't want to lead her on.

I'm off to see my eldest son and his girlfriend tonight then visiting my sister in law and nieces over the weekend. I'm really looking forward to that as I haven't seen them since October.

I'll try to log on later and catch up with others sitch's. I feel more like I have something to offer the forum now for some reason, and even if it's not advice, I should offer support as so many of you good people have done for me.

Take care, Barry
Posted By: Barry Re: Onwards and upwards. - 04/19/15 10:33 PM
So STBXW text'd me today, asking if I'd filed. I knew the suspense would get to her. I said yes and that I'd email her with the details of the unreasonable behaviour I'd put as grounds for divorce, the timescales, a few details regarding finances etc. I told her I didn't want to talk to her on the phone or see her at the moment. It serves no purpose and I need to move on.

I said it's not out of anything like hatred, and that I still cared about her even if she didn't feel anything for me now. She text'd back saying that she was sorry she'd hurt me so much but that she couldn't make there be feelings that she doesn't have any more.

I emailed the details through and she text'd back saying that it was all fine.
So on we go.

I'm taking the offers of the two holidays (both short breaks) and am doing that over the next few weeks. I have lots planned with the kids and my friends. I'm considering taking up a martial art and some cooking lessons (I don't want to be Stevan Seagall lol!!, both are good GAL activities though).

I'm still unsure about the dating thing, and I'm thinking carefully about it before I decide if I want to go. I'm more concerned that the nice guy in me is still very much alive and kicking. I need to exorcise that particular demon.

Athough life isn't exactly "normal" with me living at my parents and away from my kids, I'm as close to happy as I think I can be right now.

Barry is on the mend...finally. smile
Posted By: Mozza Re: Onwards and upwards. - 04/20/15 03:11 AM
I'm impressed Barry. You're progressing much faster than I did, and you were starting from behind, considering your initial reaction to BD. I have avoided all paperwork for instance, so for me it's a big deal that you're already on it. You seem to be very accepting. The only thing that you need to improve, the same as ever, is to stop reassuring your WAW that you'll be there for her. Your window is closing. She KNOWS, inside out. She will know for months after you last said it. Yet she needs to doubt it to be attracted to you. Keep your options open.
Posted By: Barry Re: Onwards and upwards. - 04/20/15 09:20 AM
Hey Mozza, Thanks, I do feel stronger. You seem to be doing well yourself.

Don't get me wrong, if there were any way of avoiding D, I'd most likely still do it...although I'm not 100% sure.
Unfortunatly, our old M is dead and needs an end. Only then is there a chance for a new beginning.
I'm accepting of it because I have to be, all other roads lead to despair.

Will we ever have a loving R again, I don't know (I still hope so even though it seems like I've given up - filing has that effect!), but if there is ever to be a chance of that it needs to be on more equal terms. I have my own path to walk now and walk it I will.
I never would have even put my shoes on without W forcing the issue but now I'm out there, it feels ok...empowering. I think one of my biggest problems in our M is that I felt like I had no say, no control, that I always followed W's lead in everything out of fear.
Fear of this sitch becoming a reality. That fuelled what my W saw as controlling behaviour, and what I saw as trying to level the playing field.

I never wanted this, lets face it, who does. Yes, it's sad that it's happened but maybe this is the hand that fate has dealt me to save me from a loveless existence and to give me the oppurtunity for growth as a man. My W and I could have changed any number of things to prevent this but we didn't, and maybe on some unconcious level - we actively made it happen so we could both be happy...IDK.

What I do know is that I'll be ok so long as I remain commited to moving onwards...and upwards. smile

Barry
Posted By: Barry Re: Onwards and upwards. - 04/22/15 03:24 PM
Oh how quickly things change. This sort of thing has been constant since BD.

20 minutes after I made my last post, my stbx called me.
I knew it was going to be unpleasant, I'd only told her 24 hours previous that I didn't want to see or talk to her!

She was calling to say that my S13's school had been calling and texting her all day about arranging a meeting regarding his behaviour. She said that because I'm going to be his primary parent soon, would I arrange the meeting and go without her. She said she's tried everything to turn him around but he wont co-operate. Of course, he's my son and I will be the primary parent soon so I agreed to do that. I've had some success at this in the past with my eldest son who is now at University.

S13 was taken out of his mainstream school pre BD and has had problems for a while. He's now in a school full of all the little sh!ts though, which has made him even worse. I don't live with him and out of all the kids, he has the least to do with me. I call, I text, I make myself available and try to arrange to do nice things etc but he's not interested.

Anyway, I called the school and arranged the meeting. I then sent S13 a text (that he would recieve at the end of school as they don't allow mobile phones in the school) saying to him to not go straight out with his friends after school, that his Mum has asked me to take over now, and that I've been in touch with the school. I wanted to talk to him about it before the meeting.

I got a text full of abuse back from S13 at 16.00 saying that he didn't want me involved in any of it. This is because he knows I'm the tougher parent, I always have been. My stbx is so self absorbed at the moment too (that's not an opinion, it's a well known fact) that she now wants to wash her hands of what she sees as a problem child that she doesn't know what to do with.

Bearing in mind, I don't live with him at the moment, and whenever I ask him about how school is going, (of course) he says that everything is "fine". The school tells me nothing - stbx made a big song and dance about that months ago and insisted they only contact her because he was living with her, and of course, stbx tells me nothing either so although I knew he was in this "special" school, I didn't realise he was running riot and being abusive to the teachers!! We exchanged a few texts but his were all abusive.

I called stbx to ask her to make sure he didn't go out after school so I could talk to him. She said she couldn't stop him and started going off on one (she's actually crazy - I mean it). I bit back because I'm tired of her crap and she hung up on me. I called back and my D16 answers the phone screaming at me to "not shout at my Mum". I said goodbye and hung up.

I was still at work but was seething by this point so I left a little earlier than normal. I went to try and catch my S13 at home before he went out. As I was driving back, I get a text from stbx saying "I've managed to get him home". I texted back saying "Good, I'm 5 minutes away). When I get there, he's gone??

I asked stbx what happened and she said "well, I shouted at him so he stormed off". I asked her what she couldn't have just kept her mouth shut, she knew I was on my way and she's passed him to me now. Yep - we had another argument. I'm more angry at the fact that not even 24 hours after she gets it that I'm accepting the divorce, she's made it that I have to contact her again. Yes I appreciate it's about the kids but still.

I told her that I have enough going on already with trying to sort out the divorce I didn't want, raising tens of thosands of pounds that I don't have, and trying to get on with piecing my life back together. All I want is this over, her gone, and to get back home with my kids. I appreciate that my S13 has a lot going on too, I'm just trying to help him out of the mess he's in.

Anyway, I tried to find him as he kept rejecting my calls and wouldn't answer my texts. I found him in the end and asked him to come and some in the car with me, he was still really abusive and added into the conversation that he didn't want to live with me now (how it even got to that I don't know). He stormed off back to his mates so I left it there and went home.

I called stbx to say that I wanted her to talk to him when he got home, particularly about this "not living with me" business.
She said she wouldn't tell him that he COULDN'T live with her and that if he did decide to do that, the current offer would need to change and we'd need to sell the house, split the moneies etc.

I've been working really hard towards the goal of paying her off and getting back home with the boys and it's possible now that my S13's short term tantrum is going to cost me about 30,000 in equity and I could lose my house. My son is more important obviously. Those things are too though.

I did say to stbx that it was a bit of a cooincidence that this has all come about 4 days after I've filed. Yet another argument.

I went to bed early and feel back in limbo a bit again. I don't know what's going to happen. What really grinds my gears is that I've become a real supporter of the "only controlling myself because I can't influence others" ethos, yet somehow, it's fine for people to be able to influence the course of my life with their actions...how does that even work!!??
Posted By: rd500 Re: Onwards and upwards. - 04/22/15 05:45 PM
Very tough Barry. I have no advice just a bit of support. S13 is going through a lot and needs his Dad. You can only be there when it's needed Carry on with D. That's about protecting you and yorur sons. Relax back from it and give yourself time to think and process what is happening

Take care mate. Rd
Posted By: Barry Re: Onwards and upwards. - 04/27/15 03:39 PM
Hi all,
Just a post to say that things are slightly more settled now (thank goodness!).

I had a meeting with the school last week and we went through a few ideas as to how best to help S13. The headmistress told me that he's mentioned our impending D a few times, saying that he's generally unhappy and angry about it. I'm sure that's the case. As bad as it sounds though, I've a feeling that he sometimes uses the "troubles at home" trump card to make the school more lenient towards his behaviour. I told the school that I am on 100% on board in trying to help S13, but that I also need to show that I'm fighting his corner on the occasions that it requires it.

The D paperwork is going through, but I'm still waiting to get a timescale as to when I'll be in the position to give stbx her money. I'm still aiming for around 6 weeks from now.

I made my peace with stbx after last week's fiasco. I didn't realise at the time, but I'd actually made her cry...that's why she hung up on me. I didn't say anything that wasn't true during that phone-call though and my tone was fair but very firm. What appears to be happening is that stbx was immensly strong at BD and I was the weak one. The tides are changing a little now..Barry is now stronger day by day and there are crack starting to show in stbx.

As we were texting about S13 last week, out of the blue she said that she was sorry she'd hurt me so much but that she couldn't feel what wasn't there any more.

I responded the following day saying that I knew that and that I was sorry too. Sorry that this has happened regardless of the how's and why's, and that I'm sorry I can't tell her that I forgive her. Maybe one day I'll be able to, but I can't right now. I appreciated her apology, it doesn't heal the wounds though.

I do feel so much better, but I don't fully trust it. I've been here (or close to it) a few times although I do feel MUCH stronger now. I've made friends with a really great bunch of people and I've never had so much fun. I rarely think of stbx now and when I do, it doesn't upset me. Maybe the rollercoaster is just leveling out, I don't know.

Take care all.

Barry
Posted By: Fogg Re: Onwards and upwards. - 04/28/15 04:16 AM
Originally Posted By: Barry

I do feel so much better, but I don't fully trust it. I've been here (or close to it) a few times although I do feel MUCH stronger now.



I have the same mistrust in my sitch all the time also. Those times I felt on top of the world to only crash the next day, made me hesitant to say I'm doing better. We learn from it and keep going forward, all that we can do.
Posted By: Barry Re: Onwards and upwards. - 04/28/15 06:27 AM
Hey Fogg, hope you're doing ok.

Absolutely. The biggest lesson I've learnt at the moment is not to plan too far ahead. I do have a long term plan but I tend to only look at the next few days so that when something comes along to knock me off my perch, it's only short term goals it affects. It stops a drama becoming a crisis.
Posted By: Mozza Re: Onwards and upwards. - 04/28/15 06:39 AM
Thanks for the update, Barry. I always look forward to them. As usual, you evolve fast. I was here 2-3 months before you and I don't have a single paperwork drafted! My D can't be pronounced before October anyway.

Originally Posted By: Barry
I made my peace with stbx after last week's fiasco. I didn't realise at the time, but I'd actually made her cry...that's why she hung up on me. I didn't say anything that wasn't true during that phone-call though and my tone was fair but very firm. What appears to be happening is that stbx was immensly strong at BD and I was the weak one. The tides are changing a little now..Barry is now stronger day by day and there are crack starting to show in stbx.

I've no judgement on this, but I urge you to remain very aware of your tendency to cover your actions with your words. Stuff like "I didn't say anything that wasn't true" is an interpretation of what you said. If we went through your statements one by one, would we agree with this? Same for your tone that is "fair but very firm" in your opinion. The risk is that you end up with an interpretation (it was all true! I was fair!) and she with the opposite (he lied to me! He was manipulative!), both of you absolutely convinced to be honest. But it starts with your shame of your actions ("well, maybe that sentence was manipulative after all") that you try to cover. It's ok to say "I went too far on this, I shouldn't have put it that way, etc." People will love you more for your vulnerability, bot less for your faults (which they know already). Otherwise, somewhere deep down you're not fooling yourself and you'll get angry at the world for your own lies. It's typical of Nice Guys to hide their flaws in shame.

You have a historical tendency of doing one thing and then claiming the opposite ("I'm not badmouthing WW, but I said..."). People notice these things and it probably affects the perception of you by others, how much trust they have in you, whether you can influence them, etc. It is hard sometimes to acknowledge our actions for what they are, especially when it's the opposite of what we believe we should do. But it's another way to bring peace in your life.

Anyway, you're dealing with very difficult stuff right now, way more than I do, and you seem to be doing it well. Keep DBing.
Posted By: Mozza Re: Onwards and upwards. - 06/01/15 04:46 PM
We want an update, Barry!
Posted By: Barry Re: Onwards and upwards. - 06/02/15 12:35 AM
Hi all
(thanks Mozza, good to hear from you...great work in your sitch, and yet again I see similarities as you'll read later).

So here I am, over 5 months in. It's been several weeks since my last post, and a lot has happened in that time.
This could be a lengthy post.

To update my sitch...I've filed for D, and stbx should be served any day now. We did have some delays but overall, the online divorce process seems fairly straightforward. I have had to do some chasing up though. If there were any "battling it out" to be done, I wouldn't advise it be done online but if things are amicable then it is possible to D at a fraction of the cost.

There's zero chance of R between her and I now, and she continues to treat me like a stranger. We have NC except for anything about the kids (rare), or critical updates on the D. We're currently thrashing out the final financial details for the Consent Order to be drawn up. It's not ALL amicable but we're getting there. I'd describe things as "frosty" between us at best.
I have the finances in place to pay stbx her 10k, so hopefully in the next 4 weeks or so I can move back home with the kids and she can do whatever it is she wants to do. The sooner the better.

In my last posts I was saying about having some issues with my S13 at school, this is far more settled now. I've taken over completly from stbx as regards his schooling and we are making progress. Slowly, but progress nonetheless.
All the kids and I have spent as much time as we're able with each other, but what with either living away, working shifts, school, exams, dance classes etc, it has been somewhat limited.

It hasn't been easy being away from the family environment. I've gone from being the Dad and Husband in a family of 6, to feeling very alone sometimes. It's partly their ages too, they would have been out most of the time with their friends even if me and stbx we still together. I don't expect them to put their own lives on hold because of our sitch. It's part of their coping mechanism too. Whatever helps them, helps them. They all have this to cope with too, and all I can do is be here for them...they aren't little any more.

Regarding my own emotional state these days, as I've said before, I was going for longer and longer each time before having any real tears, even though I felt upset and angry. The anger was more productive for me. I had one night about a month ago where I'd arranged to meet S13 and he bailed on me. D16 wasn't ansering my calls, S18 was at work and S20 lives away and I couldn't get hold of him either. I hadn't seen any of the kids for about a week and any contact was initiated by me...every time. It was starting to feel like I was actually being punished for leaving the house and them at Christmas. It wasn't a good night.
It's not like that really, and it all got sorted out in the end. Thankfully, I haven't had any emotional outbursts since then. I continue to take anti-depressants. I've had a serious case of man-flu for a week or so now, it's a wonder I can even type this out lol.

So anyway, speaking of feeling alone.
A good friend of mine introduced me to online dating. I was very skeptical about the whole thing but agreed to make a profile on a well known site. I put a recent picture on and left it at that.
I had quite a few hits. I was pleasantly surprised. Some weren't my type but there were some attractve women, fairly local, who had sent me messages.

Now I knew I wasn't ready to be thinking of dating but I have to admit, it was exciting.

Under duress from my friend, I got talking to a few of them. Some came and went, but three were keen on meeting up and I kept up the conversations with all three for a few weeks. Anyway, I met one for a coffee and although I knew we were going to get on (we'd spoken on the phone a few times), there was no connection as such. We both said so, said we'd keep in touch (we have) and wished each other luck. I met another for a drink in a country pub - loving summers day. I tell you, this woman turned up looking like a supemodel. Unfortunatly, she didn't have the personality to match and was a dull as dishwater....NEXT!! smile

So then I meet up with the third one. I'd been talking to her for around a month and we'd gotten to know each other fairly well. We'd chatted on the phone a few times and she invited me to her house for dinner. I went, and was both excited and terrified. The last first date I'd been on was 24 years ago.
Her daughter (who loved in the flat opposite) was there too and we all had a good laugh, and some very nice food. Anyway, time was getting on, and the daughter went home. I stayed for a final coffee before hitting the road and one thing led to another.
I stayed the night.

I wasn't really expecting that to happen. I honestly thought I was going for dinner with someone who had become a freind through our online and phone conversations. I'm not gonna lie though, I've never had a night quite like that before.
I met up with her again a few days later and she was even more keen than last time. It was all really fun but it felt too much too soon. I spoke with her about it and ased her if we could put things on hold for a while whilst I deal with my immediate sitch first. She understood and was fine about it. We keep in touch but I think we both know my hearts not in it. The contact is tailng off. I learnt a lesson there....slow down!!

I'm only looking out for Barry and his kids now. I just want to go home.
I'll get there soon enough.

Till next time, take care all.

Barry smile
Posted By: Mozza Re: Onwards and upwards. - 06/02/15 01:10 PM
Juicy! I won't be the one disapproving of your steamy encounters. I'm glad to know that it was fun and that you might see another side of sex. While the general wisdom here is that faithfulness is the way back into a healthy M, I would personally hope that this encounter would raise your expectations of sex and bring a new level of satisfaction in your married life, be it with WW or your next partner.

Originally Posted By: Barry
There's zero chance of R between her and I now, and she continues to treat me like a stranger.
These statements drive me nuts. You don't know that. You just don't. And for just about everyone who have reconciled on these boards, there seems to have been a phase of hopelessness. Just ignore it. I also feel like there's a zero chance, but then I catch myself and realize that I don't know that. I just have to have the maturity to accept that. It's outside of my control. Today is not like tomorrow and we LBS should know that more than anyone.

Another thing that I would encourage you to do is to take more responsibility. I understand that your friend pushed you to be online, but it's irrelevant. You did it of your own free will. If he pushed you to fire a gun in a crowd, you would have told him he's crazy. You used your friend to do something you wanted, which is to meet women. I mention it because you bring up your friend twice, suggesting it's important to you to share the responsibility.

This is a theme that repeats itself a lot in your story, where you find some way to avoid responsibility for your behaviors. Trying to cover your actions with words is another such way. I see where this is coming from: the fear of shame and rejection. I have the same. But I have learnt so much from expressing myself clearly, facing and surviving rejection, that I want to encourage you to just plainly state what you want and do and admit that it's because you wanted it.

There's a lot of positive in your post. It's good to see how much effort you put in keeping in contact with your kids. Also, I'm glad to know that you're getting closer to being back in your home. I can see why you want it. I'm curious to see how it will work out though, given all the family memories in there. As for the D proceedings, please keep sharing how it goes. I'd say that things are a little frosty between WW and I, though always cordial on the surface. But it feels like we're both putting on fake smiles and politeness when we talk.

I'm very glad you came back to update us. Looking forward to your next update.
Posted By: Mozza Re: Onwards and upwards. - 08/08/15 01:53 AM
Really Barry, you're gone? Not even a little update? Your story is very interesting and I'd really like to know how it developed, ever so briefly.
Posted By: Barry Re: Onwards and upwards. - 08/19/15 03:27 PM
Hey Mozza (and all), thanks for your continued interest.

So I'm back home with three of my children now, STBXW and D16 are currently living with the BFF I mentioned before and are still looking for a new place to live. The BFF and HER husband of 14 years have now also split up and are divorcing. No surprises there, my ex and her mate have always been too close and ultimatly, their friendship has played a huge part in the destruction of our marriages. There is a lot of talk in the area where we live that they're both lesbians (there has been for a long time but that's really got tounges wagging!).
I don't think that's the case personally, although it would explain a great deal.

There is still no OM on the scene, or at least not one that she is being anything like open about. She goes out partying a lot though so for all I know, she could be with someone different most nights of the week. All the lesbian talk going around will probably accelerate the process now anyway.
The divorce is still going through - however it is taking longer than expected. There's some delays in the British judicial system, and they don't rush for anyone. The sooner the better now.

My GAL activities have taken a massive nose-dive since I moved back home as I've been concentrating of re-decorating and changing everything. It's looking amazing, and to a really high standard, I'm really pleased with the results as are the kids. All of them have said how homely it looks and feels now, which is exactly what I was aiming for. The boys have their own rooms for the first time in their lives and I've really given them a nice space to call their own. When I first moved back, the place was in absolute turmoil. It reflected STBX's mental state. She was never house-proud, but my God, a bit of self respect wouldn't have gone a miss!

One of the most hurtful things, was what she did to our photo albums. We've treasured those albums for over 20 years, of out wedding, and of the kids when they were little. She left me a bad of photo's, and in amoungst them, were the pages which had been ripped out of the albums. She'd litterlay torn them to pieces. I still have the photos obviously, but I pernally thought that that was uncalled for. I didn't bother talking to her about it.

I continue to take anti-depressants and have only had a couple of relapses over the last 2/3 months. I didn't stay there long. It helps that I have a very special female friend who's been so supportive to me since this all happened. It may possibly become something more than that in the fullness of time (more than likely to be honest). We're not rushing into anything though, and in fact, I've not so much as kissed her. We've been friends for around 8 years and have always got along really well. She's been a rock for me since all this happened and has taken quite a shine to me now I'm getting back to some sort of normality.
We'll see how it goes. There's no rush.

I haven't dated anyone since the last time I was here, I've been way too busy for that, and all I really do at the moment is work, sleep, and paint! I've taken time out to do things with the kids and of course, now it's easier to spend time with them now I don't have to arrange visits etc. It's not hugely important that I'm with a woman - in fact I quite like not answering to anyone but myself!

STBX and I don't have any contact unless it's about the kids or the divorce, and even then it's kept to a businesslike manner.
We aren't friends.

My financial status has taken a slight turn for the better, as I've taken a second job on the weekends on. The debts are coming down and by the time I need them to be, everything will be paid off. It's my 40th birthday on the 29th, which feels like a new beginning for me. Everything has changed so much in the last 12 months it's unbelievable.

I'll stop by as and when I can to catch up on others sitch's and update my own.

Take care, Paul
Posted By: Mozza Re: Onwards and upwards. - 08/20/15 08:42 PM
Thanks for giving us an update, Barry. I was just thinking about you this morning, wondering exactly how you were doing.

I'm very sorry about the photo albums. It does sound hurtful, especially as we're at our most sensitive these days. Things seem to hurt more than upset us, isn't it? Acts like this one are symbolic too and that's where it hurts. I've some precious photo albums too and I'm glad that my WW never tried to go after them (although kind of sad that she doesn't seem to care).

I find your special female friend interesting, especially that you managed to do nothing beyond the emotional support. It's good that you manage to go at your own pace, and probably hers as well. On the WW side, the absence of OM, the recent separation of her BFF and the planned move are all intriguing. I hope you'll continue to come and update us every now and then. Overall, you seem to be doing good. I'm especially impressed with the work you've done around the house and you shouldn't underestimate it: it sounds like major GAL. Congrats for impressing your kids.
Posted By: Barry Re: Onwards and upwards. - 08/23/15 05:55 PM
Thanks Mozza. I do feel like I'm doing ok, and the boys have said how much better I am now. Yes, the photo albums hurt. I've since mentioned it to my D16, who was with STBX when she did it. D16 said that she had to rip the pages out because she couldn't get the photo's out of each page. I tried and had no problems. As you say, it was the symbolism that got to me.

I was actually slightly nervous about her being in the house, and going through everything, picking out all the best photo's etc, but I needn't have worried. I forgot how bloody lazy she is, she didn't even try to fins all the good stuff. She's actually be heartbroken to know some of the treasures I've find from the kids childhoods. Some of them are heartbreaking now.
Rather than do the same thing, what I've actually done is split is all up as fairly as I possibly can, and have been busy bagging and boxing up anything that I think she may want. There's nothing to remind her of me - what's the point. She just wants to forget.

Yes, my female friend is an intersting situation. We're more than friends, but not in a relationship...a flirtationship. She was seeing someone at Christmas, but she's split with him now. I don't know if I'm doing the right thing in even thinking of doing anything with her - I don't want to jeapordise the friendship, and one surefire way to do that is hop into her bed!

WIll update soon smile
Posted By: Mozza Re: Onwards and upwards. - 08/24/15 03:08 PM
Covert contract. I would not send her the bag of memories. She had her chance to pick what she wants and she did it. You putting these things together for her is 1) telling her she's lazy; 2) feeling superior for your good behavior; 3) feeling like she owes you now; 4) not doing it for yourself since you find these memories very precious; 5) deciding for her what she wants; 6) pursuing to a certain extent.

What the WW wants is to escape our control, to owe us nothing, to move on, to free themselves from the past. These kinds of initiatives are just ways to remind them that we want to have a say in their lives and they're not even good for us. Forget about the bag: if she wants something more, she'll ask you.
Posted By: Barry Re: Onwards and upwards. - 10/23/15 02:46 PM
So I'm now roughly a week or so away from my decree absolute dropping through the letterbox. Life is not great.
STBX avoids me at all costs, and we have zero contact now. I'm told she's happy now. I gotta hand it to her, we're 10 months down the line, and there is still no OM on the scene.

Me personally, I'm not happy. My life now involves struggling my ass off to live a life I don't even want. The flirtationship with my friend is at an end. She doesn't want me either.
I don't know what it is, but there's clearly something fundamentally wrong with me. I knew it would be like this, I knew no-one would want me.

So I give up completly on the thought of love. It isn't all its cracked up to be and hurts too much.
Posted By: Zephyr Re: Onwards and upwards. - 10/23/15 02:59 PM
Barry, I have read your postings and I don't think I've actually posted before on your thread...You are in need for some loving alright, but that needs to start with you.

How can we expect others to love us, if we can't love ourselves?

How can we expect happiness if we don't want to be happy...I should rephrase that - we want to be happy, but we don't go out and grab life by the balls and do what we need to do to be happy.

There are a billion books, articles and blogs on how we make ourselves happy. There is ONE resounding theme in all of them, that is that we need to want to be happy. we need to want to accept that we can be happy in our own skin.

I get the fears of being alone. I get the fears that no one will ever want me again, i'll never have sex or a BJ or whatever again. I do understand where that fear comes from. it is something that you need to work through / get past and start kicking some ass.

You can do this!!! You are worth it!!! you need to start believing it!!!
Posted By: Sotto Re: Onwards and upwards. - 10/23/15 05:48 PM
Hey Barry, I'm sorry to hear how you are feeling just now. It's a tough time if you are expecting the decree absolute and your flirtatious friendship hasn't progressed. However, your W choosing to end your M and a further new R not working out doesn't equal you being unlovable. These are just two women out of millions.

I hope you'll keep posting and really use the opportunity to move positively forward at this point. Your life isn't over, you are lovable, happiness is achievable again, there are positives in this situation, a new door is opening (even if another may be closing.)

Have you considered doing a divorce recovery workshop if you are in the UK? Mine starts soon and I'm looking forward to it. There are groups all around the UK if you google it.

Keep posting my friend and take care. Things will get better xx
Posted By: Fogg Re: Onwards and upwards. - 10/24/15 06:00 AM
Barry. Glad you came back to update us and sorry things are so rough right now. I think Zephyr and Sotto have already covered what I would have said. Please consider their suggestions. Maybe it's time to come back to the forums and DB for you, there's still tons of potential for growth and the oppertunitiny to learn who you are.
Posted By: Barry Re: Onwards and upwards. - 11/30/15 12:23 PM
Hi guys,

I can't bust my divorce, it's completed. I really need to talk though and its better that I come here.
To any newcomers about to read this, it's really up to you if you continue, but know that for me, this process didn't work.
I don't think anything would have done, mine was one of the cases where there is no happy ending.
That's not to say that the process won't work for you though.

Divorce busting was supposed to be about saving myself first and then my marriage if that were possible. I tried so hard to stay the course and stick to the plan and although I fell down a couple of times, it was going ok. No matter what I did though, XW was never going to change her mind and see the good in me again. I hope you all have better luck with you're partners, and the process.

I just want to tell someone, anyone, that I didn't save myself, and actually - I'm not well. I've been on anti-depressants for most of this year but tailed it off a couple of months ago and haven't taken any at all in the last 2 weeks. I can't take them any more. They're all very well in stopping the bad emotions but I've found that any simple happy moments don't have the same effect on me any more - it's like they stopped ALL emotion. Obviously I'm aware that in stopping taking them, there will be a period of adjustment.

I don't feel any better now than I did 6 months ago though. My ex now has her own house (D16 lives with her but I hardly see her now - not because I don't make myself available either). XW has poisened D16 against me. I know this because on the rare occasions I do see her, she acts and talks just like XW. She doesn't see the boys either. They don't bother with her and she doesn't bother with them. I stay out of it.

I'm more aware than ever before how much of a co-dependant relationship I had with my XW. That's why it still hurts so much. Yes Yes, detach...I know. If it were that simple, I'd have done it already. GAL, difficult when you don't have a penny to your name.
The fact is, that all of this has changed the way I see the world. I used to be able to see the good much more - sadly, that's not the case anymore.

I don't trust anyone now...especially women. How can I??
I know I shouldn't judge them all the same, but God, you think you know someone when you've been together for 22 years and then they do this to you. How can I trust anyone now.
I never did anything to hurt my XW, all I ever did do was love her and want us to be together. She decided that she didn't fancy being married any more so wrecked mine and my kids lives to save herself....from nothing!

I was raised in a generation where the advice was to "work hard to be happy and get on in life". All i've ever done is work for my family, and the minute XW gets a job, I'm surplus to requirements. I feel used, betrayed, lonely, bitter and unloved.

I know everyone would say the same thing (it's why we married our partners in the first place!) but she was such a good person before all this happened. Ok, she had her faults, as did I. I always overlooked hers, I had no idea she was piling all of mine on the scale.
I slept soundly at night knowing that there was at least one person drawing breath who wouldn't hurt me come hell or high water. I was so wrong, and I don't know how to cope with the loss. This divorce has left me financially crippled and emotionally scarred and I can't find a way out of it.

S19 had spinal surgery a week ago (total success), which XW attended with me. We ended up spending 12 hours solid with each other, the most amount of time in probably 5 years. We did get on, but because I still love her, I found it difficult to hold everything in check. I did say that I wanted to be friendly (although not friends), and that that would be easier only up to the point where she meets someone else. I'm not sure how I'm going to cope with that - at a guess, not well.

I just can't get over the fact that she did this to me at all. She wanted to give up purely because she's still in her thirties and to her, that means there's time to find someone else. I've never felt more worthless than I have this year. All those good times we had, all those special moments - tossed away like they meant nothing. I invested over 20 years into my family for someone to wreck it all.

I think it's fair to say that most people would do anything to defend their family / loved ones from all harm. I always thought that the problem would come from the outside though, I had no idea that the enemy would be within.

To sum things up, I've lost my place in the world - well, the only one I ever cared about. My family has been split up, and all because of her. None of us deserved that.
Posted By: Sotto Re: Onwards and upwards. - 11/30/15 12:52 PM
Hey Barry, I'm sorry you're struggling with things. What has happened to us is one of the most painful things that can happen in life and it does take a while to recover. Like many of us, you're not there yet. But I would put the emphasis on the 'yet' and encourage you to explore that it is within your gift to recover and enjoy the many beautiful gifts life has to offer. After all, what is the alternative? Feeling angry and sorry for ourselves, bitter in the longer term....none of these sound particilarly appealing.

I recently read Viktor Frankl (Man's search for Meaning...`(I think)) He wrote about his experiences as a prisoner/doctor in concentration camps. He distilled from this something that has stayed with me - We don't get to choose what happens to us - in prison camp pretty much everything was stripped away from people - but we do get to choose how we respond.

So, while it may be sometimes hard to do this - recovery or otherwise from what has happened - truly that is within your gift. We are none of us helpless in the face of this ordeal - this tough hand of cards we have been played.

I'm going to suggest some things you may find helpful...

Attend a divorce recovery workshop. I'm also in the UK and just finishing one off. Have a look on their website to see if there's a local group (best) or a weekend workshop (there's a social scene that comes with this too.) Cost: 60.

Read Growing through Divorce by Jim Smoke. It links pretty closely to the DRW, but of course you don't get the social element...but well worth the 3 from Amazon.

Have a look at the talk on happiness by Shawn Achor on TED and try his happiness plan for a month - it's a combination of gratitude, meditation, exercise, helping others and journaling. He's also written a book on this, which I haven't read.

I'm not a medic, and would encourage you to see your GP about managing your depression, and possible medication. If you adamantly don't want to be on anti-depressants, maybe consider St John's wort and regular exercise to manage this.

Read NMMNG and consider joining a NMMNG group...

Reach out to your D on a regular basis and accept she is still coming to terms with what has happened in her life. Please don't presume she is being poisoned by your ex. Kust know that everyone is doing their best to heal from a difficult time.

Start to think about forgiveness. Try to think less in terms of what your ex has done 'to you' and more in terms of what she has 'done for herself.' She became unhappy for whatever reason and took steps to change her life. You were unfortunately the closest person around and have been impacted by this. However, this too can be forgiven.

Really start thinking about your own growth - spiritual, social, financial, hobbies, home, family, learning, work.....given all that has happened, what would you like to do in these areas now my friend? Try and see the 'freeing' aspects of D, and that (whilst unasked for) you have more freedom to make decisions about your own life.

You'll notice I haven't suggested dating. I think you have more healing to do before you consider this. However, I truly don't think you should say that DBing (to save yourself) hasn't worked for you....though it's fair to say you're not fully healed yet.

Please stick with us and journal and post - rejoin the community while you heal further. This isn't the end of the road for you my friend and there are many joys still to experience in life.

Take care xx
Posted By: Vapo Re: Onwards and upwards. - 11/30/15 01:24 PM
Sotto put it beautifully. I know it hurts buddy, but you are not alone. find things you can be thankful for and thank the good Lord every day. You will see, that all is not that bleak.

Stay strong buddy.
Posted By: Fogg Re: Onwards and upwards. - 11/30/15 03:44 PM
Great post Sotto. Barry, please listen to all of this and take it to heart. It think it would be good for you to come back to the forums and post more regularly. There's still a great deal of learning and growth you can do and I still think your M can be busted. At the very least there is you to be saved still. I've been through so much this year and learned so much about myself and I hope you can do the same. Forgiveness is hard when the WAS is still damaging us and add in the nice guy/Codependent qualities we both share and it makes it even harder. What she's doing isn't about you. It was the hardest thing I had to accept in all of this but your W didn't set out if betray you, even if she did. I understand the pain she's caused you but it is in no way a reflection of who you are or who you can be in life. You decide those things, only you. Who are you Barry? Are you a man who lives with whatever he was given in life and is happy, or one that allows an event (that's not about you) to destroy you?

It will be hard and take time to move through this pain to grow but I believe in you. You can do this Barry.
Posted By: Maybell Re: Onwards and upwards. - 12/08/15 04:52 PM
Hey, Barry, I saw your post on my thread and I wanted to come here and see what you're grappling with. Sotto nailed it, but I did want to share a little of my own experience.

The VERY BEST THING I did for myself this year was a trip to Paris. (I'm in the US, going to France is a big deal) I was completely terrified and kind of resistant to it, but when I actually got there and decided to just make it AWESOME, it was amazing, and I surprised myself with how great it was. Truly life changing. So pull out your bucket list -- or make one if you haven't yet -- and plan something that is just for you. Better still if it's something your X would never have done or would have done only grudgingly.

Anti-depressants: I hyper-respond to medication, so I never was on a prescription AD. St. John's Wort did enough for me. I took them faithfully during the year that the marriage was coming apart. At some point towards the end the bottle ran out and I didn't get around to replacing it right away. I had the chance to notice I was doing all right, so I let it go for several months. Then I hit a rough patch and had to go back on it again for a few weeks. Keep self-monitoring. If what you're taking is not working for you, go back to your doctor and get the prescription adjusted, or turn to the St, John's Wort.

Letting go of resentment and bitterness has been an act of will. I've had to work to magnify the good in my life and distance the frustrations related to Mr. Fantastic. His life is his. His bad choices no longer reflect on me. That is a good thing! He didn't value me the way so many other people in my life value me? That's fine -- now I have more time for the people who really care about me. And I count who they are. And I rely on them reminding me when I'm not meeting my own goals for myself.

I see you have a really short timeline in your signature line. Have you seen mine? I'm almost 2 1/2 years out from BD. A little more than a year and a half since he moved out. The divorce was final in September. I've had a LOT of time to process it all. Be gentle with yourself. This stuff is hard! Take time to feel what you feel and cry when you need to. Be angry and find some outlets for that anger. Do something new. Get to know your new situation and try to find the positives in it. Challenge yourself.

BE GRATEFUL. It will take practice. If you can only be grateful for the cool side of the pillow, then be grateful for that till you can find something bigger. But the more things you find to be grateful for, the easier it will become to find that you are happy in your core even if you don't like your circumstances. Those things can be separate until they come together.

Don't date. I started just very recently because I felt like FOR ME, it was needed in order to restore some of my better qualities, and as a form of self-care. When it doesn't make sense to put it off anymore, then you'll know you're ready to take that on too. Just remember, when you do, that there is another person involved, and you want to be able to be kind and engaged with that person, to grow from your acquaintance together (whether it's brief or long), and to be considerate of her feelings.

The biggest thing I hope you remember, though, is to be kind to yourself and don't try to put any artificial timeline on your healing. Feel what you feel, express it in healthy ways, and keep moving forward in gratitude.

Hugs, Barry, and I'm sorry you're here.
Posted By: Mozza Re: Onwards and upwards. - 12/10/15 05:06 PM
Barry! I'm glad you're back. I always want to hear what's up with you, even though you're going through rough times. I hope you find here people and sayings that will help you.

I hope you'll start a new thread real soon because I'd like to continue interacting with you. In the meantime, I'll share with you an epiphany that I had this week. It's no different from things that are often mention around here, perhaps just a new angle for me.

I'm dating, as you know, and these days I'm not hearing much from a woman I like maybe a bit more than the previous ones. I've realized that my reaction is a (very) light version of what I had when WW walked out on me. You know what that means?

The monster is in me.

I cling to the idea that WW put me in this awful position, did this to me, made me miserable by leaving and the way she did it. But now I realize that I have similar reactions with other women. It's not them who are doing it to me, it's me who is reacting a certain way to a romantic disappointment.

In a similar line of thinking, I've had friends who D'ed around me and none of them have had such a strong reaction as me. One of them met a new woman two months later and is still with her, and happy, some 8 years later. Another one didn't protest much even though he didn't want to D. This always struck me as odd, but also made me realize that the misery I was in was my reaction to the situation.

Yet another angle on this: My IC observed that my marriage was a "problem solved" for me, i.e. that since I had found a good mate, I didn't have to confront my fears of having to find someone. It made me realize that for some guys, D would be good news. They'd be free to date, sleep around, meet up with friends, arrange the house to their liking, etc. I know it's not good news for you and me, but we gotta realize that this is also our take on it. That there is another way.

So I'm saying that this monster that's making you miserable is in you. It is not your WAW.

And cut the cr@p on "no one will ever love me". You know who else isn't ready to share its intimacy and life with you? Kate Middleton, Emma Watson, Ryan Gosling and nearly 7 billion people more. Same for all of us. Just because a couple of people you know do not want to be with you doesn't mean you can't be loved. Dating is about matching, matching is just finding things that fit together. Rejection is being told you're not a match. You need to know it early and move on to find a true match. So keep wandering in the world, meeting people and testing mutual attraction. Some will want you for one night, and a tiny minority will want you for a long, long time.

Your wallowing about "I never did anything to hurt my XW, all I ever did do was love her and want us to be together" makes me think that you were in extreme emotional distress when you wrote your update. I'm very sorry about that and I relate to your pain. But we both know that's not true. We've been over this and you've confessed of your shortcomings in your M. Everyone has had failings in their M. No need to beat yourself up again, but this victimization is making you miserable. Only you.

Come on, open that new thread and please find another positive title for it because it will follow you for months!
Posted By: Fogg Re: Onwards and upwards. - 12/10/15 05:39 PM
^^ that was something about myself I learned earlier in the year also. I know the thread is over 100 posts but wanted to share the similarities. Most of my M I looked at finding W as being lucky also. I never had to deal with the dating scene and breakups. I found the woman I would spend the rest of my life early and avoided many things. I basically seen the M as a problem solved also.. The issue was I then became comfortable thinking because I found her I would always have her. I did the work to gain her love but I didnt do the work to keep it.

The problem was already solved so there was no need to work on it anymore(not really work anyways). Hindsight.....

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