I have started using the term wayward when posting about a wife invoved in an A. Mainly b/c I feel that there is a major difference in the heart of a woman who does not have sights on another man and leaves the M for other reasons .....compared to the heart of one who has eyes for another man or who wants to conduct herself as though she were some wild, single girl looking for fun. It came to my attention some time back that there was some confusion, and I personally think it has to do with these two different women.
The newcomer H initially thinks his W must surely be having a MLC b/c he cannot believe what he hears and sees in her. Surely something has fell on her that is the "cause" of all this terrible behavior and attitude. From all the posts I have read since 2007, I am convinced there have been extremely few who really "get" the ugliness that is born in that cold, empty, place inside the woman who suddenly crosses the line into a state of waywardness. She is lost to her new found feelings, which are all based on what is wrong. Wrong feelings, wrong facts, wrong truths, wrong dreams, wrong people, wrong standards.......everything is just wrong.
I may have a bit of a different take from the majority on the board, when dealing with a WAW who is
not in an A, compared to how to deal with a WAW who has some other man (real or imaginary) in her head. A wife in any kind of A becomes wayward, IMO. Therefore, the H's response to those actions should be a much tougher love comparable to a W who is not in an A. When the H is dealing with a wayward wife, successful DBing is at least a three-fold process. However, at the moment, I would like to refer to what I believe are the first two parts of DBing a WW.
First, the H has to see his own part of the downfall in the MR and work very hard to improve himself as a man. Notice, I said "man" and not H. The reason I said that is b/c the M is past the point of him showing her what an improved husband he can be. She is not interested in him as her H. If he now starts trying to implement all the things he sees he should have done in the past, it will hurt his effectiveness in getting this stitch turned around. For the WW, it is much too late, and she no longer cares about you doing those things. Based on what most newcomer LBH'S say, they think spending more time with the kids, showering the W with more attention, doing the housework, cooking, and running her errands (basically catering to her) will do the trick. A H should never do
everything and leave her with no responsibilities, and certainly not at this point in the broken M with a wayward.
That leads me to the second part. As the rejected party, the H cannot enable her in this terrible, disrespectful behavior. Every time he does, it will set him back. Before he can show her what a wonderful & improved H he wants to be, he has to prove what kind of man he is. All of this still comes under the heading of DBing. His first objective should be to gain back her respect and attraction. She can't love him if she doesn't respect him, and won't desire him if she's not attracted.
She have already displayed her willfulness in continuing this A at any cost, so he has his work cut out for him. He can do it, and it has been done by others. I can not recall a case where the H saved the M and really "got his W back" by supplicating, appeasing, and any doormat methods he mistakenly thought was DBing. That is not the way to get the respect from a WW. She is tough, and the H has to be tougher.
Many men get more focused on the OM instead of the WW. They think if OM was out of the picture things could be fixed. Problem is that it's the WW.......not OM. She is what's standing in the way right now. It's true that the MR cannot go forward as long as she has this OM in her head, but just b/c an A ends doesn't always mean the M problems are over. Many women still make the decision to end the M, after the A........b/c the real problem started long before the A.
Here are just a few things (in no particular order) I hope will help gain better insight about a WW:
*She is not the girl you married. She no longer feels the same and won't act the same.
*No matter what her values and spiritual beliefs have been in the past, and regardless of the high standard of morals she held, they have temporarily vanished. For how, nobody knows.
*She does not want to be fixed. Nobody can fix her, especially you.
*She is in complete rebellion, and will defy you when you make demands, threats or give ultimatums.
*Her heart has turned cold and selfish. All she thinks about is what makes her feel good at the moment.
*You cannot change her mind, influence, convince, or sway her by talk.
*Her brain has lost all capacity to use logic. Therefore, you cannot reason with her.
*She is addicted to the high she gets from the A. She will do most anything to get her "fix" again.
*She cannot be trusted as long as she is wayward, and until she goes through the complete withdrawal stage from OM/A.
*She will cake eat whenever it suits her......if you allow it.
*She wants the best part of the M and the A. She gets the H for security and OM for her emotional needs.
*She will bait her H, and test him.
*She will give him just enough crumbs to keep him hanging on and attached.
*She keeps the M/H as her plan B, in case A/OM doesn't work out.
*She will be interested in H if he detaches, acts as if he is busy, happy, moving on without her, and won't give her the details when she starts asking.
*Pursuit from her H only pushes her further away.
*She is living in a fantasy world. She wants the dream to continue.
*She will blame her H for every thing wrong in her life. His apology does not erase her resentment. She will totally rewrite their marital history. She holds on to her anger toward him b/c it fuels her negative view of the M and justifies her present actions.
* Her common sense is gone and she only operates from her emotions.
*She is willing to risk everything and throw everything away for her addiction when the A is at its thickest.
*She sees her H as the enemy.
*She has to suffer some type of loss (due to her decisions) in order to shake her from her fantasy fog.
* She is on a roller coaster and will not act the same every single day. Her emotions will be up, down, and all over the place....but never on an even keel.
There is more, but I hope this will better prepare, if possible, the newcomer. Most everyone here has experienced the pain of being the LBS. I can only give you my VP from the other side. If you had known me before my A, you would have thought I was the last person (other than your mother, maybe) to do what I did. I would like to think I had a sweet and loving heart. However, everything was in place for me to be vulnerable to what happened. And once I became wayward, my heart turned very cold and selfish. It was filled by all kinds of negative feelings toward my M and my H. Those feelings had been slowly building over the years, but when I crossed the line, the fury of those feelings hit hard. Then one day I went over into a place I knew I had no business, but I felt a new thrill. I thought I was numb, until then. It was the beginning of an addiction. The month before, I would have bet my very life I would never have been involved with another man.
Series Links
Links to this series of threads
First thread(this thread)
For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554&page=1Second thread
For the Newcomer LBH who has a wayward wife Part 2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2548490#Post2548490Third thread
For the LBH who has a WW Part 3
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2551039#Post25510394th thread
Guide for LBH who has a Wayward Wife
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2551811#Post25518115th thread
Help for LBH who has a WW (new thread)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2593214#Post25932146th thread
Sandi's reflections
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2653323#Post2653323Definition and Guidelines for Piecing
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2832573#Post2832573
All I can say is wow. Good stuff. Pretty much nailed my sitch.
And now I'm like yes, yes, yes.... Oh shhhhhh!
Can you elaborate on what the type of loss is that you reference?
Getting fired?
Losing the family?
What else can she lose that will jar her
Thanks a lot, sandi2. I will add a link to thins post in the Resources section at the top of my threads.
What a wonderful asset you are here, Sandi
Thank you so much Sandi!! Great post!! Sounds alot like my wife!!
Can you elaborate on what the type of loss is that you reference?
Getting fired?
Losing the family?
What else can she lose that will jar her
The loss of the marriage. The loss of her fantasy-world which is largely facilitated by the LBH. These losses are easily blamed on the LBH by the WW, but may be enough to begin the process of her snapping out of the delusion she is living.
-PM
I believe the ultimate loss that finally breaks through and cracks her hardened heart, may be something the H had not even considered or ever know about (if he was trying to create some of the loss). It may be an accumulation of losses. In short, it has to be enough to humble her. That word may sound offensive to some, but it is as true as I know how to say it. I'm sure all of this I am posting is contrary to what a lot of the softer approached DBers like.
IMO, the H can be instrumental in overseeing the losses connected to him, however, he needs to be careful, especially if he has controll issues. His objective is not to control or punish her. With his own intense hurt, I think it could be easy to mislabel his true motives when executing particular losses. In the past, there was a LBH on the board that I felt crossed the line and was giving advice in how to manipulate every area of the WW's life. It sounded more like bully tactics to me, and what I saw as making the road back home anything but smooth.
I stand on tough love toward a WW in an A. However, I believe it is much more effective to use the "let her go" method, and let her believe she is the one being dumped instead of her giving you the boot. I say this from the VP of a woman......and former WW. If men would do this as soon as he gets the bomb, it would speed things up dramatically. Every WW who has come to this board has said when her H dropped her.....that cracked her A fog.
The first loss the wayward should experience is her H. When everything is laid out and she starts with the usual BS of not seeing a future with him, etc., he should start immediately in pulling away. He needs to do it to the degree she feels his absence in her everyday life. And it is important that the H does not make any grand announcements about his intentions. He doesn't talk. He acts. He doesn't tell her what he's doing, he just does it.
* Immediately separate the sleeping arrangements, by putting her things out of the master bedroom. No discussions, he just takes her things out of the marital bedroom. Let her figure out where she will sleep. The H's message is he won't sleep with a cheater. The H is not to take the lesser desired room or bed. No moving down to a basement, out in the garage, on the couch, etc. He is not the unfaithful spouse. He should not act as if he is the guilty party, sneaking around to sleep on the couch and keeping it a secret from the kids. It is her problem, let her deal with it.
*Immediately stop all contacting throughout the day. If there are any decisions that need to be made about kids, school, babysitting, pickups, etc,. Tell her to get it straighten out the night before and no texting him about details later. (He is not to explain that he is going NC, etc.) He completely withdraws his part of the texting, emails, and calls unless it is urgent. He is not to use the kids as an excuse to contact her. She needs to feel this loss. He is not being available at her fingertips.
*Immediately stop all the little things he use to do for her as a loving act of service. Taking her coffee, servicing her car, cooking her breakfast, carrying in the groceries for her, washing her clothes, cleaning her messes, etc. If she asks, he should just look at her and say, "Really?" (Now, if she really cannot lift the bags of groceries, he can help, but the point is for him to withdraw volunteering those little things she took for granted).
*Immediately stop engaging in R talks, b/c when he gets sucked into one of these talks......it shows her how badly he wants to hang on to her. The message she should be getting is that he is not interested. Do not even try to initiate small talk. If she initiates small talk at the dinner table or in front of the kids, then he should respond in civil but few words. His talk should be more focused on the kids and perhaps their scheduling for the following day. He is not to reveal details of his GAL plans during any of these conversations, other than saying he will be out. If she asks any questions, he should simply give her that incredulous look that says, "Seriously?"
*Immediately withdraw his physical presence from her as much as possible. He should spend time with his kids, of course, but not alone time with her. He should not engage in usual family events, celebrations, etc. It is better the kids be disappointed for a shorter period of time than a lifetime of hurt.
*Immediately withdraw all physical affection. No hugs, kisses, pats, cuddling, snuggling, or spooning. Remember, she is having an affair. The H is not in competition with OM. He will not score points by giving her affection. Withdrawing affection will be noticed by the WW. What I have noticed from the majority of LBH'S is how it's him that has the problem withdrawing the physical touch. He cries about how hard it is and he misses her closeness. He has to stay really focused, especially when she starts to tempt you sexually. This is entrapment!
*Do not recognize her birthday, Valentines, anniversary, mother's day, or any other holiday by giving her gifts. Are you kidding me? She is cheating! She has said she isn't in love with him and doesn't see a future together, and he wants to set her on a feather pillow and treat her like a princess b/c the calendar and our commercial society has brainwashed us to buy something on those dates?
The H needs to think of what he would have done in a dating relationship where the woman was cheating with another man. Would he chase, plead, serve, constantly text, email, write love letter, send songs, have flowers delivered, and give gifts to anyone who treated him like cr@p? Would he hang out at her place every evening, hoping she might notice how great he is? Would he try to kiss and snuggle with her when she's made it obvious she is interested in another man? Marriage is not dating, but the man-woman dynamics do not change. Why do men turn from being the self confident male he was before M, into a soft- passive-clinging-fearing-doormat? This is so unattractive to all women.......single or married.
*The H should stop paying for anything that enables her to continue her A. Paying for her cell phone, buying gas for her to go "out", paying for her beautification (hair, nails, plastic surgery, spas, etc.). No financing any of her trips, whatsoever. If W has her own income, he should put the savings account in his name (minus whatever amount she may have contributed) and start his own private checking account. The message to her is that the financial security that wa once available for her access has been limited, and could be stopped altogether.
As a result of these actions by the H, the WW experiences loss of the H's availability, his presence, his intimacy, his physical affection, his meaningful conversations/interactions, his attention & closeness, his acts of service, his words of love & affirmation, quality family time, and his financial assistance/support. If he will do all of this together, and if he would do it immediately, she will experience the loss. It doesn't guarantee to end her A. In fact, b/c she feels loss of control, she will play a lot of games to get it back. She wants the security that was provided to her, but she doesn't want to give up the A to have it. That's her selfishness leading.
Men get confused and say, "But isn't this more of the same behavior from me?". IDK, but I know that the difference here is what she wanted back then.....and how she feels now. Your motives and attitudes were different back then, from what they are now. Nothing about this will be more of the same. The dynamics have changed.
The H needs to be extremely strong and confident. He cannot backslide and have sex when she comes on to him (game playing) b/c it will put him back at the start position again. Who wants to go through it again?
How long he remains in this stage of DBing is up to the H. However, he should not end these detached actions and just go back to being as he was before she dropped the bomb. He may not quickly see true evidence of positive results from the loss he has caused her. WW's are very crafty. They will play on every emotion the H holds (guilt being number one). In his desperation to see some "sign", he often falls for her little game of manipulation. Even though she has said she no longer feels anything for him, he will use all her feminine wiles to keep him in her control. Things usually get much worse before they get better, and he will need to stand taller and stronger. It may take a physical separation before she completely faces the full impact of her reality. The H should not fear a separation, nor try to talk her out of it. He should not help her with any of the process in getting set up in a new place for her.
Such an insightful post. Thank you! I will refer to it often. My WAY keeps wanting is to be friends and to coparent our kids. Right now thst is a spreadsheet
And nothing else.
I have read the books and am actively employing their methods.
I have no idea if they are noticed or are successful but I am doing them for me and my kids. We will come out of this stronger.
I am a little surprised how much my Wayward spouse goes out of her way to hurt me and kick me when down but I guess that is part of the script.
Again thank you for your nuggets of wisdom
And ezperience. As my wayward spouse has moved out -
It's easier for me to GAL and try to put her out of my mind even though I still struggle.
Onwards!!!
Second to last paragraph, can't help but wonder if I made a mistake yesterday Sandi?? I presume to know your answer is yes. Did I just go backwards? I suppose time will tell where I'm at and if she was genuine with me or being manipulative.
I actually responded on your thread about what you told her. Women can and do have sex without any feelings, and certainly without love. Historically, women used their sexuality to accomplish or conquer various goals in their life. Some were so limited in survival skills they had to rely on their sexual abilities. It still goes on today.
. Mostly, I think women have used their sexuality to control. It happens with the little housewife and goes all the way up to the White House.
True, some HD women who are in an active A can have sex with OM and her H. I won't say your W was not....(ahem).....in the mood........but based on how easily she brushed it off afterwards, and went her merry way on her "night with the girls" instead of honoring your request to be with the family, I'd say she was temp checking and getting you back in the palm of her hand. Yes, control.
I hate to tell you, but you need to write it off as nothing. In the future, please stop telling your W how she feels!!
Go back to acting as if none of this sex took place and you have not changed your stance. Do not make any comments about the sex. Just let it alone.
Thanks PM, for your comments. Hope others will join in, also.
Thank you Sandi!! This just answered quite a few questions I was having. GREAT POST!!
I found a post from a guy on a different forum a month before I found this forum. He posted some things he learned from his WW. One thing that he said was after they had a big argument, he prepared himself for their separation. He acted as if she was leaving him. He started to think about what he needed to do. How he would take care of his kids. How he would go on with out her in his life. Once he started realizing he would be fine. It would hurt and be tough, but would get through it, he felt better about it. He acted "as if" they were separating. He moved on with his life. Stopped worrying about what she was doing. He said it did not take long before his wife noticed that she had pushed him to far and she was afraid she was losing him. She began to become more attached to him. He said at one point, she told him that she thought he could handle being without her better than she could handle being without him. Seems the rolls got reversed a little!!
Got a question for you, Sandi2.
You've been following my sitch, I plan on going to court and testifying against my W if asked to do it. I say this for three reasons:
1. I have to draw the line somewhere. Hitting is NEVER OK in my opinion.
2. I feel that if i let this go she will continue walking over me.
3. I am showing her "tough love".
All of my friends agree with me.
Does that sound right?
Sandi,
I was thinking a little about what happened with phunguy's experience. I started thinking about what I would do if my wife came down and wanted to do that with me. I would probably respond by telling her that as much as I would love doing that, I just can't as long as she is doing what she is doing on the phone with these other men. I guess my question is, what does that do to her insecurities right now. She has gone through alot of insecurity issues lately!! But I guess I have gone through some also since she has cut me off!!
My WAY keeps wanting is to be friends and to coparent our kids.
I forgot to comment on the "friends" part. I have written rather lengthly posts in past times on the friendship the WW claims she wants to keep with her LBH. I believe as in so many things with men & women that they have a different definition or something gets lost in translation.
Many times, the WW will drop the bomb and hit the H with, "but I hope we will always be friends" without hardly taking a breath. At that particular time, she is "done" and sees herself moving on, but she wants his full cooperation and no trouble. She is "soothing" his feelings by offering her great consolation prize of friendship. Maybe even BFF!
All the time, the poor H's head is spinning and hasn't had a chance to grasp the news with which she just blew him off planet earth. He desperately grabs for any crumbs she throws at him. Friends? His mind is reeling. He thinks by being friends they will be able to work out their issues and reconcile. In time, she will see his improvements and will realize she still loves him. Yes, friends sounds like a good idea to him.
However, that is not her thinking at all. If he agrees to this friendship, she will use it to her advantage in every possible way. Especially if they are living in separated houses. He becomes her handyman, plumber, electrician, errand boy, babysitter, and the best one of all......a gay boyfriend. She can cry on his shoulder when there is a problem between her and OM, and will expect his sympathy! She will expect him to drop every thing at the last minute and put her wishes as top priority 24/7. If he EVER complains or, heaven forbid, tell her "no"........she starts the old dance & song of now she knew she couldn't depend on him. He said he would be her friend and now .....yada, yada, yada. Do I need go continue. Or do you get the picture?
It is entrapment, guys, I'm telling you! Here's the point. She reduces you from a position that only ONE person can occupy. Her
husband. Now she wants you to fill a role that
anyone can have. Her friend. Now which role do you see as more valuable? As long as you act like her gay boyfriend (no offense to anyone) she will not see you any differently. It's up to you, if you want to settle for a friend relationship instead of a marriage relationship, that's your business. I only remember one man who was honest enough to admit that he would settle for friendship.......just to be close to her. How sad!
This is the epitome, IMHO, of the WW cake eating. She gets the A/OM as her main course and keeps H on the side as her BFF. Consequences? I would say NO.
Now about co-parenting. You can have a "friendly" (as in civil, cooperating) co-parenting arrangement without being chummy. Oh sure, she would be fine with going together to the school events, birthday parties, and anything else she has time to put aside. It beats her having to sit alone at the games, right? She is only cake eating, guys! She gets to participate in family/school activities --with you by her side. She doesn't have to miss any of it.
So sure, have a co-parenting schedule to adhere. But don't be her personal escort. Don't invite her to the parties and other family functions. She didn't want a future with you in it.......remember?
Sandi,
I was thinking a little about what happened with phunguy's experience. I started thinking about what I would do if my wife came down and wanted to do that with me. I would probably respond by telling her that as much as I would love doing that, I just can't as long as she is doing what she is doing on the phone with these other men. I guess my question is, what does that do to her insecurities right now. She has gone through alot of insecurity issues lately!! But I guess I have gone through some also since she has cut me off!!
Joe, at the risk of sounding harsh, I don't know that her insecurities should be your main concern at the moment. Besides, she is getting those ego shots from other men all the time.
It is very
common for a WW to test the H through sex. She feels she is still in control when he caves to her sexually. I would
not tell her the following;
as much as I would love doing that, I just can't as long as she is doing what she is doing on the phone with these other men.
A few thoughts about this type of response, okay? First, from her VP, it sounds rather self-righteous & preachy. I mean, every word is truth, but that's how it will sound to her. Second, it will be seen as punitive. You aren't punishing her.....you are turning her down. You don't want left-over sex.
Hey, don't explain how much you would enjoy doing it. You only have to remember two little words. "
No thanks!"
I promise you if you remove yourself by saying those two words......
message received. You will not settle for sloppy left-overs. Then if she verbally attacks you, just turn away and leave her presence. In fact, do it when you first say, "no thanks".
Awesome information and perspective, thanks. This all makes so much sense, but conflicts with what I'm doing in so many ways also so makes me feel lost in what I'm doing. Either way gives me a lot to think about.
That makes sense. I never thought of it like that. I have always had a problem figuring out the right thing to say. Thank You.
Sandi
You and I have exchanged posts on that which constitutes a WW. V is a Potential Walk Away Wife who is not wayward but standing for herself and the right to build a new and better M.
I would just say that the H in this situation needs to be clear his W is wayward as these actions would further push away a non wayward spouse.
It would also be useful if the post could be adapted for WH, can that be done?
Thank you Sandi
As always
V
Thanks Vanilla, and I agree with what you said. That is why I tried hard to clarify it in the beginning of this thread. I am trying to be cautious not to advise something that would damage the MR worse than what it is. As I once explained to you, the WAS is not usually the one who is wanting to save the M. Although you did leave at one point, you are currently the one trying to save it. As you so eloquently said, you ate trying to stand up for yourself and build a better life. I applaud you from the bottom of my heart. You are too good, V. I can't even read threads about men such as your H b/c it angers me. (No offense meant to you, please know.)
It was actually after I was reading your first thread that I started using the wayward wife term instead of just WAW. (When I cirst came to board nearly eight yrs ago, I hated that that seeing that term.) Anyway, when I saw you referring to yourself as a WAW, and when I started reading more of your posts, I thought, "Wait, this lady doesn't sound quite like any WAW I have read about... and sure nothing compared to myself".
. After I posted to you, I thought I detected a little confusion......or maybe it was just your sweet way of disagreeing with me. In past times, I would try to remember to distinguish between the two WAW's by adding "who is in an A". After posting to you, I made a greater effort to disquenish them. I do truly believe it makes a huge difference in the condition of her heart whether or not she has an OM. (And of course, there have been those who just went wild, with no particular OM in mind.) By saying I believe it makes a difference in her heart, I am not suggesting a woman couldn't lose her love for her H due to other reasons. Several serious and legitimate reasons, other than infidelity, can break down a M beyond repair. Many women have reason to have a cold heart, but it isn't wayward. I hope I am making sense. I realize i am not the most talented in writing skills.
I believe there are some women who walk away who feel done with the M, however, they are not interested in finding someone new right away. There is no outlandish change in their moral behavior. The same cannot be said when she is wayward and has that cold, rebellious, selfish, defiance that has grown over years of resentment and it takes priority over everything........often times her own babies. She has allowed another man to take over her mind and/or have his way with her body. That is what separates the two types of WAW'S, IMO.
I try to be cautious and indicate that my advice is for the H who has a very wayward wife. I never advise cruelty, or even coldness toward the WW, just applying tough love instead of soft soaking the stitch. Also, I want it understood that this tough love stance is hopefully not forever, but could be for an indefinite amount of time. The determining factor is the behavior of the WW.
Again, thanks, V, for bringing attention to that difference.
Love this, thank you Sandi for such an informative post!
Great post. You could write your own book on relationships, Sandi2. And I would buy it. "Tough Love" by Sandi2. I find you brilliant.
I've been failing horribly since bomb day one month ago. What are your suggestions when LBH is late to the party like me? Ease into the appropriate course of action, or go all in 100% the moment you read this great post?
I've basically spent the last month begging or testing out hollow tactics to "snap her out of it." In short I've dug myself into a deep hole.
I have been a little confused on which WW I am dealing with. I would say that what she is doing is out of her normal moral character. Although I have no proof of her having an affair. Lying about passwords, hiding cell phone and creating multiple emails sure looks like there is someone she is hiding. I have decided I need to treat my sitch with a "tough love" stance. Would you agree?
Sandi2 - Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom. Something struck me and suddenly I wonder if my W is a WW.
I believe there are some women who walk away who feel done with the M, however, they are not interested in finding someone new right away. There is no outlandish change in their moral behavior. The same cannot be said when she is wayward and has that cold, rebellious, selfish, defiance that has grown over years of resentment and it takes priority over everything........often times her own babies. She has allowed another man to take over her mind and/or have his way with her body. That is what separates the two types of WAW'S, IMO.
My W has an OM and he was a factor in her decision to leave. She denied it when leaving but he was a constant presence around her before and after the S and 1.5 month after leaving she emailed me saying she had met someone: him. He moved in officially 3 months after she left me.
The reason I'm still wondering relates to your comment about the moral character of the W. My W cheated on me in 2009 with another sweet talking colleague. She kept it a secret and told me that she would leave me because we were incompatible or something to that effect. As she told me, she slept with him twice during a business trip. She said at the time that she saw the light and confessed her A to me, telling me that she would stay if I forgave her, which I did on the spot. We moved on but little changed in our couple past the first couple of months.
So fast forward to 2014 and, once again, we're incompatible, she needs to be alone, to find herself, etc. Our M is a disappointment because it only delivers half-emotions. The original romance is gone and we fight too much. Turns out there's another OM, a colleague again.
So, is she a WW who lost her morals or is she a serial cheater? Is it possible that those were two exceptions? If she's a serial cheater in your opinion, should I just cut my losses and hope that she'll never come back?
Excellent post. Describes my wife to a tee. As I mentioned in my posts, she has left me and everybody else in her life and is continuing full steam ahead with her affair. She has moved into her own place and filed divorce. She has not had any contact with my children and grandchildren since I disconered her affair on New Years eve and confronted her. After doing the begging and pleading early on, I have now gone dark and limit my communication with her to texts or emails tegRding legal issues. We don't have children together, but I raised her children as if they were my own for 17 years. Only the youngest wants anything to do with her. The rest have distanced themselves from her because of her selfish actions.
I've actually spent the last 2 days cleaning our house after she and her youngest left. They left a huge mess and she left behind all of the pictures, clothes, and memories that we accumulated over the years. Very sad. I am actually getting dinner ready now for 3 of her children. They are all adults but we still do things together.
I will adhere to the advice that sandy2 espouses, but am doubtful that she will return. Her boyfriend has money, nice house, and drives a Maserati. I can't comptete with that. I think she sees a sugar daddy and doesn't have to deal with the drama in our lives this way.
Wayward is wayward. I didn't mean to make this complicated, my goal was to help make it more understandable for some newcomers. I am talking about two types of wives who walk away from the M. One type is not wayward, the other is.
Joe, I have already told you that your W is wayward. Your W may not have narrowed it down to one specific man, however, she has a broad spectrum. She doesn't have to have just one man. She has a variety of men. She is selling sex every night. You even found evidence in emails and where she had signed up on dating sites or in a chat room.
I have seen this, where the H goes into some kind of denial and tries to convince himself that his W really is doing nothing wrong. He thinks maybe his imagination and jealousy is in overdrive. I suppose that may be a natural respone, IDK. You are not imagining any of this. And here's the thing, Joe, if she had not crossed the line into waywardness, then she would give up that lifestyle for the sake of her M and for her kids. But it has a hold on her. She is as addicted as any A could do, b/c she gets the same thrill from her sexual contacts. And as with other addictive drugs, it requires more to get the same high the next time. That is why her sexual activities are have overlapped into other areas on the Internet. She is hooked, and now she is rebellious and defiant. She will choose this "job" over her H and kids, not b/c of the money but the addiction.
Thanks, Kramer. You sound like a good man. I bet her older kids really appreciate having you in their lives.
She may be gone until OM is ready for a newer/younger version. When she has nowhere to turn, she may call you, IDK. In many cases they have to hit rock bottom before they recover their senses.
Thanks Sandi. I wasn't meaning to complicate the situation and I wasn't really denying what was going on. I just wanted to be sure I was handling it correctly. There are other feelings involved in this besides mine. If we did not have all these kids together, I would sit down and tell her to make your choice right now. Stop the job and work on our marriage or keep the job and pack up your things. And if things don't change sometime soon, it may come to that. First I am trying to separate myself from everything going on except the kids. And once my truck is fixed, it will be alot easier to GAL. Older daughter is coming to visit for a couple days. She is good at asking questions and also telling it like it is. Wife will make up some story about having her own room. It would be sad, but a huge dose of reality for daughter to over hear her work. She would say something for sure.
Wow Bing, what a compliment!
I've been failing horribly since bomb day one month ago. What are your suggestions when LBH is late to the party like me? Ease into the appropriate course of action, or go all in 100% the moment you read this great post?
Like I said on your thread, you can't do anything expecting some desired response from her. You have been looking for a magic bullet to shoot this down. Not going to happen that way, sorry.
Ease into the appropriate course of action, or go all in 100% the moment you read this great post?
That is a good question. Personally, I feel too many men wait too long before they take appropriate action. They get so worn out mentally & emotionally that they can't cope, before finally letting her go. When they let go, she knows if it is real. Women just know.
I have also seen those newcomer H's who are too quick, and did not take time to learn what they should be learning, and I recall one guy who took some bad advice (and I won't tell you what about or it will get this thread off topic) and anyway he jumped and and filed for a divorce before ever doing anythings else. Then he came back crying about what to do! Well, it is a lot harder
after you've sc@wed up everything once already. See what I mean? He just picked up a tidbit of something he thought would shock her out of her EA, but he didn't think it through and just used it as a gimmic. People come on the board, go strictly against the advice.....then ask us what to do next. Think before you act.
Just as in setting boundaries, you need to understand what it means, what they are, how it works, and how to enforce it. Same thing applies with what I have said in this thread. You have to be prepared and READY to let her go. Otherwise, you are simply faking it, and she just might call your bluff.
I don't know if you are there yet, Bing. Have you finished reading the book?
Considering your bust with the boundary setting, my advice is to keep studying and getting this information under your belt, first. It is too much to learn in just a very few days. However, you could be applying the "37 rules" right now.
Oh I understand about other's feelings that you must consider. This is nothing to take lightly. Neither is what she's doing should be taken lightly.
You first mentioned what if S19 overheard her. Now you are saying her older D is coming and if she suspects anything she will talk straight to your WW. I get the impression you are kind of hoping someone else does it, to take some of the weight off you.
If this was an affair like in most of these cases, I would probably not even mention this, but have you considered a family intervention (you and her grown kids) if your W continues with this sex phone and the online activity? There have been a couple of times where there was a situation where something of that nature was needed in other stitches. I certainly won't push it if you don't feel comfortable about it, just wanted to plant that thought in you.
Great post. I'd appreciate any insight into what you think about my situation.
My WW mentioned that her new boss is interested in "dating" her today. I started with the friend card, but now I'm 2nd guessing myself a little. I want to get everything in motion asap.
I've basically spent the last month begging or testing out hollow tactics to "snap her out of it." In short I've dug myself into a deep hole.
Learn the lesson now - and do not forget - that being fake will get you nowhere you want to be. Not just in this situation, but in life.
A tremendously important part of this journey is the self-evaluative process you undertake - putting in the time and effort to figure out who the man you want to be is, keeping the good traits, getting rid of or changing the bad traits, and understanding that no one...NO ONE has the power to change that person you are becoming. No matter how someone else acts, no matter what someone else says,
YOU are going to be the man you are intended to be.
So no easing. Evaluate the situation. Determine the plan. Execute the plan.
That is an informed and intelligent approach. And it does not rely on feelings, but on truths and actions. Your feelings will lie to you. They will try to get you to do things your head knows is better.
Never never never blindly follow your feelings.
Always be honorable. Always do the right thing. Become the man only a fool would leave. Be a leader. Be bold. Stand firm in your convictions.
-PM
PatientMan, could you help a young man out under Need Help.
Amazing post. I really wish I had this on D day. I hope people that are just discovering this site take your advice to heart.
DBing has really opened my eyes on what it takes to make a healthy marriage. It should required reading before a marriage license is issued. Unfortunately, I may have discovered it bit late.
I guess I never thought about the intervention thing. That might be an idea also. I will keep that in my thoughts. I am going to give her another week and see how she does and than I believe we will be having another talk. She knows I am not screwing around anymore. I don't know what the fit was about last night, but today she has a different attitude. One of worry. I also know that she might be a tad nervous about older daughter here. D knows we are having problems. I have texted her in the past about a few things when she asked me. I guess wife claims to have texted her also. And wife asked her to take her to the doctor last time awhile ago when we had a fight about her job. So d texted me. I also did not act like everything was all well between me and wife while D is here. D asked why there is a bed in wife's office. I told her to ask her mother. I did not stay in the room to hear the lie. D can tell something is going on.
I don't know if I am hoping someone else hears her and confronts her to take the weight off as much as it might just WAKE HER ASS UP. Maybe seeing one of her own children hurt and sick from what she is doing would get her attention. She lies to them too!!
Leon, concerning your stitch and testifying against your W, is this for custody of the children? I will go to your thread to respond, okay?
Awesome, awesome thread, Sandi. Much-needed too, in my opinion.
There are some things in life that fall (at least in my idealistic/altruistic mind) under the "Things That Ought Not to Be So" category. A lot of basic male-female human dynamics fall into that file it seems.
I have long said on this forum that people would be very wise to study the cr*p out of these basic relationship and interpersonal dynamics, and LEARN. So much time and energy seems to get wasted on some basic version of "But it shouldn't BE that way!" angst on the part of the betrayed spouse, instead of just snapping into action and actually USING these dynamics IN THEIR OWN FAVOR.
Bottom line, supplication isn't attractive and it doesn't work. Men AND women both tend to value most that which is difficult to obtain.
Starsky
Wow Sandi2 let me just tell you how great this is to read. Thank you very much! I have been struggling for the past week to figure out how to proceed in my sitch and this address a lot of what I have been struggling with. I really wish I had read this when I first came here, that being said I wish I had come here and found DBing a lot earlier on in my sitch. But I also believe I wasn't ready to read or hear some of the things both here and what you have commented on in my sitch any earlier then I did (if that makes any sense). Thank you again!
Hi - My wife has asked for a divorce, she states she is no longer wants to be married to me. We have been married for 23 years, and have two kids. Long story short, I was arrested, went to court, there is a temp custody order, i mean this is horrible. Can divorce busting help?
Mozza, sorry that I am just now getting back to your question.
The reason I'm still wondering relates to your comment about the moral character of the W. My W cheated on me in 2009 with another sweet talking colleague. She kept it a secret and told me that she would leave me because we were incompatible or something to that effect. As she told me, she slept with him twice during a business trip. She said at the time that she saw the light and confessed her A to me, telling me that she would stay if I forgave her, which I did on the spot. We moved on but little changed in our couple past the first couple of months.
So fast forward to 2014 and, once again, we're incompatible, she needs to be alone, to find herself, etc. Our M is a disappointment because it only delivers half-emotions. The original romance is gone and we fight too much. Turns out there's another OM, a colleague again.
So, is she a WW who lost her morals or is she a serial cheater? Is it possible that those were two exceptions? If she's a serial cheater in your opinion, should I just cut my losses and hope that she'll never come back?
I don't wish to make this any more complicated that it already may be. Psychologists would probably break it down into more complex categories, IDK. But trying to keep basically to where I started, I believe it is what's in the heart before an A ever happens. Whatever moral and spiritual/religious foundation they received while their character was being molded in childhood to adulthood, IMHO (and I am certainly no expert), would have a great influence on those type of decisions in life. It does not always prevent a person from being wayward, b/c it is an act of volition. People can change (either direction) and do not always adhere to their parents or even their own previous belief system. And since we know a WW is acting from emotions, there will be a clash between what she knows in her heart is right & wrong with what she is desiring/feeling.
I went online to copy the definition of the word "wayward" and this is what it gave:
Difficult to control or predict because of unusual or perverse behavior. synonyms: willful, headstrong, stubborn, obstinate, obdurate, perverse, contrary, disobedient, insubordinate, undisciplinedThe Bible refers to a the "strange woman," as the King James Version calls her. Other translations refer to this immoral woman as a "seductress," "adulteress," "wayward wife," "loose woman." So, is she a WW who lost her morals or is she a serial cheater?
IMO, it is not an issue of
loosing but of
choosing. We
should make our decisions based on what we know is right & wrong, and not on how we feel. I don't know your W's moral character, but I would guess she knows it is not right to be in a M and be involved with another man. She
allowed her
emotions to lead her astray, instead of doing what she knew to be right. She was not innocent. She wanted something strong enough to put her M and family at risk to have it, although it was wrong in several areas of moral character. B/c she chooses to do what she knows is immorally wrong for a married woman, she becomes wayward in her thinking, emotions, and behavior.
A person can also choose to come back from that state of being wayward and begin acting on what they
know is the
right thing to do. Apparently, that is what your W chose to do after her A in 2009. However, I can't remember the details, so I don't know if she chose to simply do the right thing, or if there was another motivation. Make sense? In other words, some people may appear to walk the walk but their heart is not feeling it.
Then your W has another A only five years later. As I said, I don't know her moral character and can only tell by her actions that she is
either giving over to her wayward desires and allowing those feelings to be in charge of her decisions in spite of what she knows to be morally wrong....or
else she has never had strong moral character which is now evident by her choices. To say it bluntly, some people just don't care.
I believe we choose to have moral character. It helps tremendously to have adults who are our models and try earnestly to pass forward, but ultimately, it is up to each of us.
All I can say is according to her
actions, she is definitely a wayward wife at this time. Would she ever make changes and be faithful for the duration of her life? IDK. She's had two A's in five years while M. I, personally, see it as a high risk when there has been more than one A.
You are the one who has to decide if you believe she would ever stay faithful and if you could take that risk again. Could you ever completely trust her again? ((Mozza))
Sorry for such a lengthy answer.
Thank you so much for your wisdom, Sandi.
Thanks Sandi! Regarding me allowing the wife to come pick up things from our place is that being too friendly and not tough love enough?? Or should I allow it to try and gauge where she is in her mind now?
Hi Miman, I am not familiar with your stitch. I will read it as soon as I can. Your W has a right to all of her personal things. The household items should be agreed upon, if the two of you are living in separate houses.
I suggest you have something planned ahead to keep you busy while she's there, maybe even do something in another room. Don't shut the door, and don't act cold/mean/angry. Just do something other than stand around watching her and acting as if you care.
She may be curious and ask questions while she is there, so give vague answers, but don't lie about anything. Answer with short sentences, rather than rambling on & on.
Hey, you are busy.....preoccupied, and really aren't all that interested in what she's doing.
As for carrying heavy things out to her car, sure you can do it. You aren't suppose to be jerk. Just don't trip over your own feet by trying so hard to be attentive & helpful. Make sense?
Thanks for the reply and the suggestions sandi,
that's basically how i was feeling about what to do when she visits
she already did a quick grab of personal items about 2 weeks ago. Now she's coming back to grab cookware for her new apt and visit the cats. she texted last thursday around midnight asking if i was awake, i called her friday and we talked a bit. but basically she was checking to see if the cats were okay, if i was okay and if she could grab pots and pans.
She already told me she didn't want any furniture, so i suppose letting her have some cookware isn't too out of reason. It's hard to know when to use the tough love approach vs. the kind and happy approach with the Wayward Spouse.
This is an incredibly insightful thread. I suppose leaving me a note asking me to take out the garbage is "temperature checking".
RAI
Mozza, sorry that I am just now getting back to your question.
Thanks a lot saind2 for your insights. I have just responded
on my thread.
This is an incredibly insightful thread. I suppose leaving me a note asking me to take out the garbage is "temperature checking".
RAI
The correct answer is
E: Not enough information.
-PM
fair enough, PM.
W is home all day and could have done it herself any time. She almost never leaves me notes - especially for something so trivial. It just seems odd. Maybe she is asserting herself? Maybe it is not trivial to her? Truthfully, I have no idea what she is thinking or why she does what she does. Some of that phenomenon is reflected in Sandi's original post in this thread about WW.
thoughts?
Hi Rai. Sorry you find yourself here. Just my pennies worth. I know how you are analysing everything W says and does but trust me , it all means everything or nothing. You have to let it go. You will see lots of examples of W and Hs telling their spouse that they miss them , love them etc. these WAS are still away from the R. I came home tonight and W had left for her flat, she had left my mug with a fresh teabag in it. My dinner was in the microwave. My curtains were drawn in my room and she had cleaned my bathroom. What difference does it make. If your W wants back into your M you will know. All the little signs are stars , you are looking for a planet. Take care. Rd
Thank you Rd, I think that applies to a lot of us. Thank-you for posting that.
I spent the first month looking at every little thing she did for a sign of hope. Turned out to be a waste of my time. She's a WW, nothing makes sense.
rd,
I read your post, and I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I was not perceiving her note as a sign of affection. Rather, she is asking me to take out the trash when she could have easily done it herself. I know quite clearly that my W does not want a R with me. I actually found it audacious that she took the time to write a note, when she could have just as easily taken out the trash in the same amount of time.
My question was how do I respond? if she asks me to do household chores and I do them, am I just facilitating her cake eating? If I refuse or don't do them, will she continue to build a case against me?
RAI
In this example, I can take a stab at what might be happening:
-If you ignore the note, you're a jerk who doesn't want to communicate or help out.
-If you acknowledge the note, but don't do what it says, you're a jerk who intentionally doesn't help out.
-If you write her a note back, then you're being snide and a jerk.
-If you take out the trash then you're a doormat.
Am I missing anything?
Regardless, if you are in a situation where the game is rigged so that you cannot win, it ultimately doesn't matter. It only matters that you stay true to yourself, your morals, your boundaries, your version of YOU that you can live with.
The irony life provides with respect to this perspective is this: that's the healthiest and most attractive version you can be! It doesn't matter what she thinks. Just because what you do technically falls under one of the headings I listed doesn't mean you've fallen for the trap and are now exactly as she defines you: either a jerk or a doormat. You be you. The rest will take care of itself.
Let her stay over there and waste her time "making a case" against you, an awesome guy having an awesome time who couldn't care less about a meaningless "case". She's the one missing out.
-PM
Edit: and now I'm remembering that this isn't my thread and I don't want to muddy up sandi's waters. I'll quiet down now.
Sorry RAI. My mistake. I have just seen so many posts about small
Signs and from my own sitch I know they may mean nothing. I will let the vets do their work. Take care. Rd
Still a valuable lesson though PM. Adding clarity not mud.
Sandi, the post at the bottom of page one I've now read several times( the first one too) It has me thinking a lot. What I'm struggling with is how to implement these ideas. I've asked her to leave get her own bank account etc. and as noted in my thread she's done nothing so she can eat cake, used sex against me and . I'm now seeing it is I must begin to take the action. In the mean time I've begun to make some plans
If you have some time I'd like to pick your brain on a few things.
Sandi,
For me, my W is definitely WW. However, all of the things that you have listed for me to do....she did first. Pretty much went full NC.
I've backed off for the last 6 months, but recently saw that she is hurting so much. The A has always been a secret even after she left. Basically, she pulled the trigger, but he didn't. Every time I think its over, I see that she's still in full pursuit. I've spent 6 months w/o exposing the A to OM's GF.
She's always been good putting up a front of everything is fine (why I had no clue about A for over a year.) However, we recently got to the point that I was starting to see her wall break down. She was trying not to do it, but I think got comfortable with talking at MC.....then she still blames me with a huge lie. So, I thought she was out of her fog, but obviously not. Ugh, problem is these lies are crossing the line, but I think she actually believes them right now.
So, I'll be just fine with being without her; but still hope my W is in this shell and will come out again.
So my question is, in your sitch; did you reconcile the things you made up about H to see that they were just lies to support your justification? I've been recently wondering if she made up the 'no turning back' lies in order to push me away or trivialize the A in her head as the cause of the S. Especially since OM didn't work out.
PM, that was an excellent perspective. Very edifying! You have triggered a small but significant seismic shift in my thinking. I appreciate it. thanks for taking the time in the midst of this most excellent thread.
rd, don't stop chiming in. I appreciate all posts, from vets and non-vets alike. I truly truly do. It just feels good to be heard when one is alone. So, in that respect, mission accomplished.
Back to your regularly scheduled programming.
RAI
So my question is, in your sitch; did you reconcile the things you made up about H to see that they were just lies to support your justification?
What things did I make up about him?
So my question is, in your sitch; did you reconcile the things you made up about H to see that they were just lies to support your justification?
What things did I make up about him?
Sandi,
What I think MCS meant was did you demonize and villify your H while in your A?
Sandi2,
what a wonderful resource (as in your 'rules' much earlier).
Just curious -
I haven't come across
*'this,' below, in the threads so far ... Your above post is an 'all or nothing approach' (which
I agree with btw - maybe a year ago "dunno"
)
Anyway, is this applicable to all
types of mlc-ers - as in those mlc-ers who may *1 - probably be homeless if lbs takes stand and kicks out? or 2 - may hurt themselves due to the same outcome?
Maybe I haven't been looking in the right threads
- as there are so many, and I have so much to do between reading. Have you ever encountered such a sitch?
Pbetra,
MLC is a whole different ball of wax. I have said clearly in my posts that all is not equal in DBing when one takes the type of WAS into consideration.
To me, Sandi's thread is applicable for those who are just WAS...not MLCers. In short, my answer is "no" to your question.
There is a reason why there's a MLC forum devoted exclusively for spouses struggling with their MLCer (and same can be said for the Sex-Starved Marriage).
Ok thx Wonka - I guess the confusion 4 me anyway is that the wayward list
behaviour seems so similar! I wondered if other areas intersected as well (?). Thx 4 getting back
p.
Sandi,
I think you might have missed MCS' question in earlier post....about demonizing your H while in your A.
So my question is, in your sitch; did you reconcile the things you made up about H to see that they were just lies to support your justification
I have never been one to tell lies, even as a child. I would tell the truth, knowing I would get a spanking for what I did. I hate lies with a passion, and throughout my entire M, I had never told a verbal lie to my H. You know how Starsky says "All cheaters lie"? That would tear me up and I wanted to shout, "Not me! I never lied to my H"! Oh but I
was deceitful and covered up the truth, and did things behind his back, and broke his unconditional trust in me, and cheated. So yes, I had joined the rank of liars.
I never verbally lied about my H, however, I did take the truth and give my own negative viewpoint and make him sound a lot worse than he really was........and especially when I was in the A. I left the impression he was worse than he really was. Yes, I did it to justify my own actions and for having the resentment I had toward him. Actually, I had put him down for years whenever I talked about him to a couple of my closest family members. I called it getting it off my chest b/c my H would never talk about our problems "with" me. So, I had been justifying or trying to get emotional support by putting him down as the true bad guy in our MR.
Yes, I had to deal with all those types of feelings and how I had blamed him for everything wrong in our M. I fought it a long time b/c I did not want to apologize for anything, not even the affair! And in fact, I didn't apologize for a long time. I remember telling one poor LBH (who was needing to hear an apology from his WW) that he might as well forget her going to him with an apology for the A. (Starsky nearly blew a fuse.
He and I had come to the board about the same time and that was our first encounter with each other. Of course we were from different sides of the fence. )
Over these years I have learned how similar WW's act and even things they say. Whether they tell bold faced lies or give their own negative twist, they all seem to feel they have to paint the LBH to appear as the one who really broke the M down, and that he made her life so terribly unhappy that nobody could blame her for having an affair. ButI knew the truth deep down in my heart. I believe everyone does, unless they have other mental issues. Maybe in some cases, the WW begins to believe her own lies. Either way, it is useless for the H to try to convince her otherwise.
If a couple is going to truly reconcile after an A, she has to feel remorseful and then apologize for the A, and how she hurt her H, and all the lies & unfairness she created. And for some couples, it may not be a one time thing, b/c old feelings tend to resurface and if it is not dealt with appropiately and quickly, it will fester and they will not heal. If they even stay together, their R will not be much more than a sham, and both will live in misery. From all accounts, it takes some WW's a lot longer to do all of this, than other WW's. I personally feel the WW has so much anger toward her H, that that is why piecing is so hard! It takes time to heal all the wrong that was involved before, during, and after an affair.
I hope I answered your question.
Sandi2 You have been a great help to me, I have not done the best job of executing the advice you gave me but I understand what you are saying.
I just read your last post and am starting to piece your story together. Did you and your husband end up reconciling?
That is awesome. I so hope I can say that same thing one day.
I never verbally lied about my H, however, I did take the truth and give my own negative viewpoint and make him sound a lot worse than he really was........and especially when I was in the A. I left the impression he was worse than he really was. Yes, I did it to justify my own actions and for having the resentment I had toward him. Actually, I had put him down for years whenever I talked about him to a couple of my closest family members. I called it getting it off my chest b/c my H would never talk about our problems "with" me. So, I had been justifying or trying to get emotional support by putting him down as the true bad guy in our MR.
.....
I hope I answered your question.
Sandi,
Yes, this answers my question and I see the same things to the extent that W has stretched the truth so far to the point that anyone (our friends, her friends, her family) that knows me has started to defend me because it's at such an extreme. At that point, W stops talking to them about the sitch and then has tended to alienate herself from them. We're probably talking about >10 different people that tried to be an ear for her in the beginning. It's gotten to the point that she was complaining to me that no one cares about her and everyone treats her like 'poop.'
Friends have told me that during our M, W would say things to them that seemed like they were embellished, but they didn't know if maybe I was being that way or that W was just making a bigger deal about things. Once W left and folks started to talk to me, I see how different the story my W was saying compared to what actually happened.
Thanks for your insight, I see that W is having the downward slide of her fantasy world falling apart, but has not started to reconcile the 'truth' from the picture that she has painted of me in her head. I've been slow and steady, unwavering in my approach of calm and collected and it infuriates her, since this doesn't support her 'story' of how I'm a monster.
I hope that she'll eventually get to the point that she works through these feelings, even if we don't get back together because it's bled so much into any interaction we have, including plans about kids, schedules, exchanges, etc.
Thanks for the thread, it's helped me out immensely
MCS I have to tell you that your posts here a ringing true in my sitch. It really helps, especially now, to know that I'm not alone, and that my sitch really isn't all that different from anyone else's.
When we were first dating my W hated the idea of lying. Anymore it seems like that's all she's doing to me. She mentioned wanting to stop by and pick some stuff up from our apt. I told her if she didn't want me to be around when she did she could just let me know. She said no that was fine and that she would just call me before she stopped by. This morning I found that certain things were missing around the house... I SO want to call/text her to ask if she did stop by. Part of me thinks I shouldn't because I should be detaching maybe? I don't know what to do.
Miman2, I feel for you. I am also dealing with the lies!! It hurts to have someone you love look you in the face and lie to you over and over again. I am also dealing with a wife living in a major fantasy world. She has taken on a different name online. I have picked up the mail and seen a bill with one of her character names on it. When I discovered the dating sites she was on, it was under her character name. She said she was trying to recruit guys to call in and ask for her so she would get more calls. There are fake email accounts under these character names. Awhile back she told me that the person she works for put a stop to the calls about underage situations. 2 weeks ago, I was upstairs in the middle of the night getting paper towels. Overheard one of her calls. It made me sick to my stomach. Again I saw that she has been lying about these type of calls also. I am not lying for her about her work anymore. I will respond by telling them that they need to ask her about what she does.
When we were first dating my W hated the idea of lying. Anymore it seems like that's all she's doing to me
I would like to address this to all the LBH'S.
When a WW makes the first step through that gateway and compromises her integrity, then the next step is easier, then the next, and the next. I remember the first time I called OM. We had been IM on the computer for a while and he gave me his number. I left my house to call him. As I held the phone in my hand, I was saying, "This is crazy, this is crazy"! But I dialed his number while my heart was racing from the excitement.
That step led to others, and in a very short time I was behaving as though I had conducted that style all my life.
The old W has disappeared and a new wayward b'tch has taken her place. Never underestimate what she would do. I hear men say, "My W would never do that b/c she's not that kind of person". Well, neither was I. However, I became that person, and if you have a WW, she will, too.
In order for her to become who she once was, that waywardness has to die all the way down to the root. It is very unpleasant for her, and it is a process much like pregnancy, labor, and giving birth (which
that takes nine months, and
this may take longer), but my point is it can't happen overnight. She can't just "snap" back, no more than she can spit a baby out the minute she conceives. She has to go through the "morning sickness" and the burden of the pregnancy. She has to deal with the misery she experiences. Then comes the real work. The LABOR! She thinks she's dying! It's too hard. She can't do, and wants to give up. She has to keep pushing and working to accomplish this birthing process. Then she reaps the blessed joy and realizes she has been given a precious, priceless, treasure. (I won't take time to express all my anologies to each of these steps, b/c you can figure it out.
. )
Many want to bypass this process, but she can't have the results without going through the process. Another way of looking at this process can be comparable to her having to
die to that wayward person she became, and give life, energy, and purpose to the person she once was. I used the word "die" instead of "shed" or "throw away", etc., b/c it is painful. If a LBS doesn't believe that it should be all
that hard, then they clearly don't understand the transformation that took place and now has to reverse.
This is my main reason when doubting a WW who "suddenly" has decided to end her A and stay in the M. She's having sex with her H (maybe, not always) or she's telling him to just give her time and space and "Let's just put this all behind us and move forward". She may, or may not have shed a few tears to convince the H she wasn't playing him. However, she never truely shows signs of deep remorse. It doesn't usually take long that her bad attitude shines through and things quickly go down hill again.
She can't get there that quickly or easily, b/c it is a process that takes time. I warn all H's to be very cautious about letting your WW back into the M too easily. Some of you are so focused on just getting her back.......you will take her anyway you can have her. If you do, the problems are far from over, and another A could be waiting down the road, or she'll tell you that you have to accept living as roommates.
The root problem has to be resolved. The reasons that led to the A has to be reconciled. I believe it is wise to find a pro-marriage therapist specialized in couples healing from an A and trying to save their M.
Unfortunately, my LBH refused to go with me to counseling of any kind. Therefore, the DB board was my therapy, and God bless those who guided me through one of the most difficult times of my life.
I hope you don't mind me asking but Just how "deep" were you with the OM? My wife is convinced she's in love with her OP.
You're not alone there. My WW is very much in love with OM and has also told him she wants to be with him forever. This is an EA/PA OM she has known for eight months and seen in person only once. She's prepared to move our two young kids out of state, away from their families and father, to be with this man forever. The selfishness and complete disregard for others (her young children even!) makes me physically ill.
That is my point in the difference between a WAW who may have substantial reasons for leaving her H.......and the wayward W. It is as if something comes over the WW, giving her a completely opposite mindset. It is utterly crazy to consider leaving her family and going to a live with a total stranger. However, I was actually guilty of that very thing!
That's exactly what it is, a totally different mindset. One that is irreversibly logic/reason-proof. For example, I have intel that OM is pushing her away a bit (perhaps it's the "forever" talk from a married woman with two kids). Does this show my WW "the light?" No, instead she blames me for creating her barriers to OM (e.g. blaming the kids).
I'm finding there is no simple answer to this - I have to let her go and follow her own path. The hardest part is gathering the strength to start that process by following my own path.
It is the hardest thing you can ever do but you can do it.
I wish you the best!!
Sorry to hijack this thread but Sandi is the process for the LBS the same for the WAW and/ or wayward wife?
That's exactly what it is, a totally different mindset. One that is irreversibly logic/reason-proof. For example, I have intel that OM is pushing her away a bit (perhaps it's the "forever" talk from a married woman with two kids). Does this show my WW "the light?" No, instead she blames me for creating her barriers to OM (e.g. blaming the kids).
I'm finding there is no simple answer to this - I have to let her go and follow her own path. The hardest part is gathering the strength to start that process by following my own path.
Yep, I'm in the same boat. W left family/me to try and get OM to commit. 6 months later, he's still with his GF and W is still in pursuit!?!? What is she thinking, now she's making stuff up (after telling me she had longed planned to leave for him) about how I'm the only reason she left. It's so hard not to expose the A to his GF, however pretty much everyone else has figured it out. It's only a matter of time, that will get blamed on me also.
I said to my IC, it's so crazy that she's pushing away the one that cares to try and win the one that doesn't give a hoot about her. Like everyone says.....no logic at all.
Sandi,
I've been reading your thread, thank-you for sharing. I saw that the books from the womensinfidelity site helped you.
My W moved in with with her best friend last weekend. I'm practicing a lot of your tips and guidelines and not contacting her. When she stopped by yesterday to pick some things up she expressed a lot remorse. She has said she is sorry and acknowledged that she has a lot to work out. There has been no R talk.
Would it be appropriate to send her a link to the books? Let her know that these might help? Or should I continue to leave her alone to figure things out.
Hi Burger, definitely no links to the books I would say. Your W needs to travel her own path and this would just be you trying to 'fix' her and control the outcome - ie: she reads the books and turns back to you.
She needs to reach her own realisations in her own time. Keep your focus on yourself, and becoming the man you want to be...
T x
Would it be appropriate to send her a link to the books? Let her know that these might help? Or should I continue to leave her alone to figure things out.
I can only imagine how badly you want to see her turn around. If you are the one trying to give her information it won't be received or have the effect it would if she found the information herself. Yes, that book was very effective in my case, but it might not be the same with her. I was at that point in my journey where the timing of everything fell just right for me to be receptive to that information. If my H had given it to me, however, I probably would not have bothered to look at it. B/c he still had to be careful not to show any pursuit.
I cannot stress enough how important "timing" plays a part in the WW finding her way back. If she has expressed some remorse, that is good. If you didn't show too much excitement about it, that is even better. LBH's get too eager at the first positive sign, and
that scares her away. She still needs time. I have doubts about these WW's that claim everything is back to normal too quickly, and just wants to put it behind her and move on. It is a slow process she has to work through.
Wait for her to come to you.
Toots & Sandi, Thank-you.
Again someone here on the forums has stopped me before I made another mis step. Some days I just want to hug everyone on here.
Thanks again.
We accept hugs.
Sandi2 thanks again... I just popped to catch up on this thread.... And again found your thoughts on the matter very insightful. Just what I needed. Thank you again, I should have come to this DBing forum long ago, props to all the new people that got here early.
Hi Sandi2, I have just read this start to finish... You have described my wife to perfection.. In fact so much so I'm not sure you're not her!!
Firstly, this should be sticky'd for all newcomers, this would have helped me immeasurably in the first few weeks, I was convinced it was a MLC... but now reading what you wrote in your first post it is clear to me that she is a WW.
I have since then done almost every bad thing you suggest not doing... From being a doormat to trying to be friends and everything in between. Tbh I was just desperate to be in her company and as you said show her I could be the perfect H. The more I did that the worse things have gotten. I won't re-hash what I just posted this morning again here, but please pop over to my thread for todays update.
Reading your posts, just highlighted what I have been thinking the last few days, and I think things are bad enough to actually follow through on this advice. That and I am mentally stronger and able to do so.
Now you say that the H has to move on, so is going on a date or similar effective, too much or just going to look like tit-for-tat and actually make things worse?
Once again thank you for this amazing insight and please mods get this top of the page as a matter of urgency!
I've read this a couple times. As always thank you Sandi. Some of this is hard to read from a place of hope, but it is very important to have some understanding of the WW perspective, and it also forces an appropriate level of expectation (which should be at zero).
The below quote is one of the items I have been thinking about the most. My understanding and actions early on where the exact opposite of what I should have been doing. I catered to her, told her I loved her, tried to own up to my mistakes, and honestly, I would have admitted anything at the moment. My self esteem was at an all-time low. Looking back, I wish I didn't react at all, kept my dignity and just asked a simple question... "What do you believe needs to change for you to stay?" I believe she wouldn't even have an answer to that question. I was so late to the party that she was just trying to figure out how to leave.
Regardless, I am with Bing. I'd definitely buy your book. Thank you for all you do.
I have seen this, where the H goes into some kind of denial and tries to convince himself that his W really is doing nothing wrong. He thinks maybe his imagination and jealousy is in overdrive. I suppose that may be a natural respone, IDK.
Firstly, this should be sticky'd for all newcomers, this would have helped me immeasurably in the first few weeks, I was convinced it was a MLC... but now reading what you wrote in your first post it is clear to me that she is a WW.
First of all this thread was created on 3/7/15 so anyone that started posting before that would need to read it.
It is now included in my welcome thread to newbies.
As none of us are mods, we can not sticky it, and I am of the opinion that we have enough stickied to the top of the page now.
As far as MLC vs WAS, let me reiterate that the LBS still does exactly the same thing.
I sometimes think that this forum makes too big of a deal about the differences.
Just MHO and .02
As far as MLC vs WAS, let me reiterate that the LBS still does exactly the same thing.
I sometimes think that this forum makes too big of a deal about the differences.
Just MHO and .02
Make that .04, as I totally agree with this ^^. I usually advice those dealing with infidelity/waywardness within an MLC to do the exact same things, only with more PATIENCE about how long it may take to get results. But it's all still about healthy boundaries, strong attractive stances, genuine 180s and GALs, strong legal and financial protection, and DETACHING oneself from the outcome.
Starsky
First of all this thread was created on 3/7/15 so anyone that started posting before that would need to read it.
It is now included in my welcome thread to newbies.
Thats great news, thanks Cadet. I realise it is a new thread, I just meant that I think it really explains what a lot of LBS (certainly me) are going through in a way that no other post seemed to hit right on the head. It also provides a useful insight into the WW's thought processes which in this time of insanity is very re-assuring that you aren't mad or alone.
As far as MLC vs WAS, let me reiterate that the LBS still does exactly the same thing.
I sometimes think that this forum makes too big of a deal about the differences.
Just MHO and .02
Yes I agree the differences seem irrelevant, as I said above perhaps it's just the insider perspective that changes things. After all as u say the label is irrelevant if the consequences are the same.