Oct 14-28, 2014 | story of 2009 near-separation, search for explanations.
Oct 28-Nov 4 | OM confirmed through kids on Halloween, refocus on me rather than blaming W
Nov 4-10 | OM confirmed by W in email, strollergate, W has problems at work, unexpected blind date
Nov 10-18 | Lunch with W went well, reflections on being dumped, kids and OM
Nov 18-Dec 8 | W warms up but OM set to move in in January, W's birthday email
Dec 8-Jan 2, 2015 | To be nice or not to be, two trips make me feel better, office party video
Jan 2-16 | Turning down lunch invite, telling W I need to move on, W emails about D
Jan 16-31 | WAW wants to change job, move to her country, I agree to meet
Feb 2-25 | Plans for moving abroad are nixed, D papers are delayed at my request, flirting experiments begin
My storyAfter 9.5 years together and two kids, my W announced in early September 2014 that she wanted a separation. A week of pleading and begging didn't change a thing. She said she wanted to be free, alone, find her true self, that I was criticizing her too much, that we're incompatible, that she was unhappy and no longer in love with me and she didn't want to live with half-emotions. She had told me before of some of those
complaints and that she was
miserable. We had not yet addressed everything, we would fight more than average, and I wasn't changing fast enough, so she was growing hopeless that things would improve.
A week after BD, she moved out. A month and a half later, she confirmed my suspicions that she was with a coworker, met at the new job she started a month before BD (after a year of job-seeking funded by me). A good listener, 10 years younger than me, better-looking and athletic, he'd been courting her from week 1 and was omnipresent throughout her move. He moved in with her in January. Our two daughters know and like him and generally take the S in strides.
DBingI accept responsibility for what I did in the M, by being too critical and dismissive of my W's feelings. I understand that my W was looking for something she wasn't finding in the M. I sometimes understand why she left, since she was miserable, and sometimes think leaving was too strong a reaction for the situation. I tend to blame her flight reflex and unrealistic expectations for love and family life.
My stance at the moment is to let her live her life while I reflect and try to focus on me. In January, I told her I didn't want to interact beyond the practicalities of the kids because I need to move on. I'm good at being silent and distant. The "no pursuing" rule is easy to apply for me because it means doing nothing. What I'm not so good at is detach, but the no-contact has helped me a lot. I see a therapist since BD.
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Success storiesI update this list every time I start a new thread. Feel free to make suggestions, especially with links to threads. I wish we had room in our profile to tell our story so that the vets and other successes could give us a quick summary.
RECONCILIATION
Thornton (M) -
May to July 2014 Train (W) -
Reconciled in 2014 Labug (W) -
March 2011 to December 2013 HopefulStill - reconciled in 2012
minkerman (M) -
Reconciled after 4 months in 2008 25yearsmlc (W) -
2005 to August 2008FaithfulH -
Reconciled in 2007 sandi2 (W) -
2007Coach (M) -
2008MrBond (M) - Used to have another screen name
Starsky309 (M) - (
ChocolateEyes,
Puppy Dog Tails) -
Aug 2007 to 2009. Exposed his W's A.
Butterflymom127 and FavoriteWeirdo -
Thread LITB
December 2010 to May 2012Raine (W) -
Dec 2012 to November 2014 (MLC) ReachingHigher (W) -
April 2012 to May 2014SM34 (M) -
December 2012 to December 2013PIECING AS OF 2014-2015
Crimson Heart14 Signs 2014-02, DB 2014-07, Piecing since 2014-07
Nitty - BD in December 2013, piecing as of September 2014
LETTING GO
Love2Surf (M) -
March 2010 to 2012pearlharbr (W) -
November 2008 to June 2010 (19 months) Snow White (W) -
2008-2009. Let go when her H wanted back in.
Drew (M) -
2008BigMac (M) -
June 2014 to February 2015 WAW offered R at the last minute and he turned it down
RESOURCES
Validation |
Boundaries |
Detachment |
Acronyms |
Stockdale paradoxMEDIA
How to handle a heartbreak (NYTimes) |
Reunited (This American Life) A couple remarries after 2.5 years. |
HuffPost: R after 43 years
Mozza, how are things with you?
Mozza,
Every time you post a new thread I learn something. Today it was the Stockdale Paradox. Thank you for being a huge source of information!
I'm glad that the previous thread covered over three weeks. It's one of the longest and a sign that things are getting a little better, that there is less frenzy in my life. I also notice that I'm about to reach 1000 posts which is way too many for a non-vet, but also that since I have 9 completed threads on my sitch (900+ posts), it means I give back as much as I receive, which is important to a Nice Guy like me
.
This morning, I have feelings of desperation at the destruction heaped on four generations (from my parents to my grandkids) because of the S. I'm baffled that so little was done to spare everyone this ordeal. My wedding vows keep spinning in my head. I even imagine myself reciting them in front of my WAW before signing the D papers on top of a pile of family photo albums. I should write sappy movies. I think it has to do with the fact that I just dropped the kids to daycare and won't see them for a week. I never wanted that. They were so sweet, telling me they wanted to stay with m. D6 is a people pleaser, so I'm never sure if she truly means it, but for D3 it was a first. D6 noticed I was sad and I told her it was about spending my week without them. D3 asked me if I was "on break" while they are with their mom and I said no, it's not a break, it's just a week without them and I prefer to be with them.
Detachment report | The reduced communication with WAW is having a positive impact. The crisis of last Thursday, where I saw her for 2 minutes, reminded me of how much progress I've made. I still cry everyday, but I'm more numb than I was a couple of months ago. At some point, I was able to talk about other topics, but now I've reached the point where I'd rather not discus the sitch. I've had some communications and decisions to make with WAW and I don't even report them here. It's just business as usual.
GAL Report | Not much to report other than nursing colds all week. D3 had it, then D6 and me. We canceled a biweekly visit of some friends because of that, but we followed the rest of our rituals: stroboscope dancing, candlelight dinner, 7-minute workout, etc. Now my week alone starts and I don't have plans. I think I'll watch a few episodes of House of Cards tonight...
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Vanilla | This is a very beautiful post. Thanks for this.
Karma12 | Thanks for your insights. My WAW admired me much, but then it became too much of a master/student relationship and I guess she wanted either to be in charge or at least an equal. She found someone 5 years younger than her, rather than 5 years older. I'd be curious to know what she's learning about herself and relationships through this.
Barry | Thanks a lot for stopping by. I was glad to see you pop up in other sitches. As 25yearsmlc said, sometimes it's just about showing empathy when you just arrived. I'm also glad the posts and book recommendations were useful. I see a change in you and will comment further on your threads at some point.
mahhhty | I'm very happy if you can benefit from it! The Stockdale paradox is an inspiration for me too, a way to just shut up and execute. I think these boards could use a sort of wiki space where we would update the success stories, resources, etc. But the technology doesn't seem to be there. (BTW, have you ever explained your strange nickname??)
Karma12 | Thanks for your insights. My WAW admired me much, but then it became too much of a master/student relationship and I guess she wanted either to be in charge or at least an equal. She found someone 5 years younger than her, rather than 5 years older. I'd be curious to know what she's learning about herself and relationships through this.
I wonder about this too. At what point do WAWs learn, and what will they learn from their situation. Unfortunately, I think it is different for each of them.. we have all heard the stats that would indicate some don't learn. That was kind of a debby down-er... So remember... at the same time, MWD always says it only takes one to tango.
mahhhty | I'm very happy if you can benefit from it! The Stockdale paradox is an inspiration for me too, a way to just shut up and execute. I think these boards could use a sort of wiki space where we would update the success stories, resources, etc. But the technology doesn't seem to be there. (BTW, have you ever explained your strange nickname??)
I agree that it would be nice to have the success stories stick out somehow.
I'm a New England Guy born and raised. I like to think I am from Boston, but I am definitely not, more like Cowtown, USA. Anyway, my name is Marty and that is how a Bostonian would say my name. There are no "R's" when speaking with a Boston accent. The classic example is Park the Car at Harvard Yard would become Pahk the Cah At Hahvad Yahd. I just overemphasized it.
Quick, stop me from jumping off the ledge.
D6 birthday is coming and since it's on a Saturday where I have her, WAW just asked to see her in the morning. I responded that I already made plans to go out of town the whole week-end, so maybe she could take D6 to lunch on the Friday. She replied:
No, I can't: they have an out-of-town activity. I would rather you talked to me: birthdays are important for us and the kids and they will only get more important. I find it sad that I can't see her on her birthday.
Here's my reply.
I made these plans simply because it's my week-end with them and it's her birthday. I don't deserve to made feel guilty or even to suggest that I do anything against the best interest of the kids. We do what we can in the situation we're in.
To paraphrase you: I would have preferred that you talk to me before deciding to separate: the presence of both parents is important and will be increasingly so. I find it sad that I can't see her one week out of two. And yet, I don't make you feel guilty about it.
If it's a day off, perhaps you could take her to your office? I did it once before Christmas and she loved it. She sits to read and draw.
So? Is that a truth dart or just a revengeful thing to say? I'm upset that she can say "the kids are resilient!" when dumping me for OM, yet missing the exact day of the birthday is a problem.
I'm sending this by 5 pm EST (in 45 minutes). I don't want it to look like I mulled this over for hours and days.
I like it but I'm not in a place where you should rely on my opinion.
Well- I'm not one the better wordsmiths on this board, but it strikes me as a little bit more of a truth spear than a truth dart.
Just a suggestion.... although your way seems fine too...
I certainly understand that this makes you sad, as I feel that way every other week when I cannot see her. Unfortunately, it's too late to alter our plans at this late date, but we can talk about the kids birthdays in the future. It is still fairly recent since you initiated this separation, so it's to be expected that these misunderstandings will come up.
Hi mozza.
Personally I think the middle paragraph will come across as sarcastic. The last sentence of that paragraph IS making her feel guilty about it.
I would be tempted to go more with
Unfortunately you haven't given me enough warning to change my plans now. I realise that means you wont get to see D6 on her birthday but the offer for friday remains. If you cannot make friday then I'm sure you will be able to do something with D6 to celebrate on your week.
If she argues then reply with a simple
I'm sorry you feel that way but I made plans that reflect the situation we are now in.
In truth you probably need wonka about now though.
What do you want to achieve from the email, Mozza? To me, it smells like jackal (in reference to NVC - it's likely to trigger defensiveness in her and I'm not sure that is your aim). I much prefer Raliced's approach.
I like it but I'm not in a place where you should rely on my opinion.
Haha! This made me giggle. I called my parents and they think the same thing. In fact, a lot of people around me wish that I'd send her a few more truth darts.
I certainly understand that this makes you sad, as I feel that way every other week when I cannot see her. Unfortunately, it's too late to alter our plans at this late date, but we can talk about the kids birthdays in the future. It is still fairly recent since you initiated this separation, so it's to be expected that these misunderstandings will come up.
Thanks raliced. I like the first part, the validation. I need to add that. But I don't want to say that I will be more accommodating. To me, this situation is just a normal and minor casualty of the S.
I am already very accommodating. I've made schedule changes because her father could only come around Easter. I accepted to switch weeks in July because she's attending a wedding in OM's family in one of the most beautiful place on Earth and will then take the kids to the beach for the first time. This was one of our longstanding plans — even though she said at BD that we had no future plans. This holiday of theirs freaking breaks my heart: he will get to have her and MY kids with him at this joyous event. She will meet his friends and family. I had built this life, brick by brick, through sleepless nights, career sacrifices, forgiving an A, love and understanding. Yet, she takes it away and gives it to someone new, overnight. Also, in 2008, when D6 was 5 months old, we went to a wedding near that region and it was an important moment in our lives, something I look back to as a reason why we had a beautiful M. We have beautiful family pictures from that. Now, she's living it with someone else, telling me "I can't look back, only forward." EFF YOU SEE KEY! And I've said NOTHING of my pain to her, just "Sure, we can rearrange the schedule. I'm sure the kids will love the beach."
What do you want to achieve from the email, Mozza? To me, it smells like jackal (in reference to NVC - it's likely to trigger defensiveness in her and I'm not sure that is your aim). I much prefer Raliced's approach.
Good question. I was asking myself the same question, but I don't have an answer. What do truth darts achieve? I guess to me is to let her face the consequences of her choice to S. I can't always be the one to rearrange my stuff around for her. I already do a lot. Also, the hope that she will be careful in the future not to guilt-trip me at the slightest opportunity. And well, maybe I want her to see things from my end? I guess I'm unlikely to achieve that, given what we know about WAWs.
Thanks for the advice, keep them coming. About 15 minutes to go!
Actually - in re-reading her response agin, I think your reply could just be along the lines of "Noted". She almost sounds like she accepts the situation. Like its a "in the future you should talk to me" request. So maybe stick to your plans now (that seems to be what you want to do) and sometime in the future show her you heard her by reaching out.
I am already very accommodating. I've made schedule changes because her father could only come around Easter. I accepted to switch weeks in July because she's attending a wedding in OM's family in one of the most beautiful place on Earth and will then take the kids to the beach for the first time. This was one of our longstanding plans — even though she said at BD that we had no future plans. This holiday of theirs freaking breaks my heart: he will get to have her and MY kids with him at this joyous event. She will meet his friends and family. I had built this life, brick by brick, through sleepless nights, career sacrifices, forgiving an A, love and understanding. Yet, she takes it away and gives it to someone new, overnight. Also, in 2008, when D6 was 5 months old, we went to a wedding near that region and it was an important moment in our lives, something I look back to as a reason why we had a beautiful M. We have beautiful family pictures from that. Now, she's living it with someone else, telling me "I can't look back, only forward." EFF YOU SEE KEY! And I've said NOTHING of my pain to her, just "Sure, we can rearrange the schedule. I'm sure the kids will love the beach."
Well - I'm just going to throw this out here - the reason I mentioned potentially accommodating her on future birthdays is not for her - it is in fact for the kids. She might have a point that the kids might like to see both of their parents on their birthday. And I say that even though my own D6 has a birthday in a couple weeks and there are certainly no plans to spend any time all together that day. When the dust settles, I
might be more open to it. Saying that you will consider it, or for that matter actually considering it in the future, costs nothing.
Thanks everyone! You've helped me to improve my response. Here's the final version, in which I removed the middle paragraph, validated and validated some more.
I understand that it saddens you. I made these plans simply because it's my week-end with them and it's her birthday. We do what we can in the situation we're in. At other times, it might be possible to accommodate, like I did for your father's visit and your summer holidays.
If it's a day off from school, maybe you could take her to the office with you? I did it once before Christmas. She was so happy. She just sits there to read and draw.Well, now it looks too kind, if that,s possible. It pains me to be the one giving her yet another solution to be happy, to bond with D6 in this case. I did it as a show of good will.
Personally I think the middle paragraph will come across as sarcastic. The last sentence of that paragraph IS making her feel guilty about it.
jim0987 - Are you back under moderation? Your post appeared long after it was posted, after I had replied. In any case, I saw it in time and it was one of the factors in removing the middle paragraph, where I was paraphrasing her. By the way, I think sarcasm is also a matter of tone and trust. The same thing, said in a loving manner between people who trust each other will go over well. I thought it might be something for you to reflect on, given that you tend to blame your sarcasm in part for your S. Perhaps you appeared or were sarcastic because of a breach of trust, so the sarcasm wouldn't be a cause but a consequence of your M problems. It's pretty typical of Nice Guys to go in roundabout ways to get what they want (in this case, pushing your W away).
Well - I'm just going to throw this out here - the reason I mentioned potentially accommodating her on future birthdays is not for her - it is in fact for the kids.
I don't think that there's any harm to the kids beyond what the S did to them. My final phrasing leaned towards future accommodation nevertheless, but certainly not suggesting that I'd check with her. In this case, my plans are much more fun than sticking in town so that D6 can spend an hour with her mom with whom she will have just spent the week. And my idea of taking D6 to work is rather good, if I may say so myself.
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One thing about my personality that came out in this draft email: I tend to make a blind move when I'm stuck and overwhelmed. I learnt that about myself while playing chess and I'm not very good at it for that reason. Over time, I learnt to identify when this reflex kicks in and the paraphrasing above was one such thing. What if I tell her a piece of my mind, what would happen? Perhaps it's better not to know for now...
Th DB Solider soldiers on! I walk the line.
It pains me to be the one giving her yet another solution to be happy, to bond with D6 in this case.
Keep taking the high road!
Kids need both parents, no matter how difficult that is for parents.
I don't think you need to worry about it being too kind because ultimately your not changing your plans or promising lots of conciliatory stuff for the future, so the kindness is solely about delivering the same message in a kind way.
I don't think I'm back on moderation......
Just on the sarcasm thing, I'm actually tone my sarcasm with people I don't know or don't like way back. Usually my sarcasm is meant affectionately and friends and colleagues seem understand that. But yes throw in the other nice guy behaviours a tiny change in tone and some cumulative context stuff and a small comment that should be affectionate and amusing becomes cutting and hurtful.
Oh and I came across 3 more potential success stories (based on their signatures), though still trying to read the relevant threads
AliSuddenly
Kalni
Angel61
The first of those they married and had a baby afterward
Sounds like a good response in the end Mozza. It didn't read 'too kind' to me.
I don't really have any advice as I am new to this and honestly not doing to great of a job. But I just wanted to say that I have been following your posts since early December and you have been a great source of strength to me.
Thank you for all of the information you post at the start of your threads. It's been Very helpful.
Wishing you all the best
Mozza-- just catching up on your sitch. I think in the end your response was fair. But I just wanted to tell you that my parenting agreement with my H specifically states that our D will get to see both of us on her birthday.
Be mindful of when things you consider "truth darts" involve the kids. Your guiding principle should always be "what is best for them? "
It doesn't necessarily mean that you should change your plans this year, but it could be something to think about for the future.
Can D6 have a special Skype session with her mom on her bday? Does your W know where you will be if she wants to send a special gift (birthday bouquet for ex.)?
You've got a lot of anger that seems to be clouding your responses (in your mind, at least, even if it doesn't come out in your email). Try to let some of that go, for your kid's sake. ..
Hi Mozza.
I think what you wrote was both kind and to the point.
It showed resilience in that you weren't going to change your plans because of a situation you feel she created and kindness in sharing a suggestion of what to do. You must understand how she feels though Mozza, even if you don't empathise with her. I would want to see my kids on their birthday.
One question Mozza; Will you still feel it's an unfortunate part of the sitch when it's D's birthday, it's not you're turn, and W takes them out of town for the weekend without saying a word to you?
Hi Mozza,
I agree with what Clair said. You want to be sure to draw boundaries and hold your ex accountable that's true. You always though want to do that with what is best for the kids.
When my kids were young they were able to see both parents on their birthdays. We did this for the kids sake even if we weren't getting along. Now that the kids are adults there are times when we will have joint family celebrations. I can tell you that my kids ( now adults) have said it means a lot to them to know that they can enjoy both parents without guilt.
My eldest son recently turned 32. I was having a family dinner with just my side. ( his dad had made plans with him for a boys night out) My sons paternal Grandmother lives closer to me. My Son asked if it was ok for him to invite her for dinner. I said of course and she was here for dinner on his Birthday. We are all family and will be connected through our children and grandchild for the rest of our lives. How we chose to handle ourselves is up to us.
Mozza,
Just stopping by to say hi, hope you are doing well!
JBird
Thanks all for your input and perspective. I'm confident I continue to do what's best for the kids. I very much look forward to the plans I have for the birthday week-end. Also, I checked with a friend who's separated and he doesn't see his kids on their birthday if it's not his week with them.
GAL Report | Disaster. I have a cold since Friday. On Saturday, I went to bed at 3 pm for a nap and woke up the following morning at 7 am. I couldn't leave the house today either. Binge watching Breaking Bad, House, Top Gear...
PMA Report | Disaster. As usual, without much GAL, I just fall back into my emotions and have been crying sporadically throughout the week-end. I've never thought that the apartment where we lived for 15 months was a trigger, but the chair where she sat to watch TV (and to BD) is getting to me and I'm thinking of changing it, as much as I like it.
Change the chair if it brings you pain. Redecorate and bring new life to your apartment. It is surprising how much better it feels to change things around.
Get rest and then get better. You will feel better once you are well and able to get back to GAL. A good nights sleep works wonders.
Moment of doubt: I just realized that it's been nearly a month since a vet weighed in on my sitch. If any of them happen to come around here — Wonka, sandi2, 25yearsmlc, Starsky309, Train, MrBond, Cadet, Mach1 — is it because...
you see no hope and have given up on my sitch?
I'm just doing fine by myself?
there is just nothing to say at the moment?
you feel I don't follow the advice?
there isn't enough happening right now?
or something else?
I notice that other not-so-newcomers like Maybell, Card29 and HPoirot still get vets' input so all of a sudden, I'm a little worried.
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GAL/PMA Report | Another sick day at home, but I was I was feeling better. Over dinner, I watched an episode of House M.D. involving a pregnant couple and it sparked a full-blown asthmatic-level crisis. Watching the H having to make life-or-death decisions for his W and baby was particularly heart-wrenching because I always took pride in being reliable and just there for my family — I couldn't understand in that moment why this responsibility had been taken away from me. The two births have been grandiose moments of bonding and they seem so recent. I became upset to think that my family was just then having a family dinner with another man, again leaving me puzzled as to what I had done to deserve this. I called my parents to get over it.
NC Report | Daycare closed this morning because of a water problem. WAW tried calling (I didn't pick up) then texted me to let me know. She never asked me to pick up D3, but told me what a pain it is for her, that she's missing a lot of days because of the kids, etc. I only replied it was unfortunate and that I had forgotten to tell her that I had kept D6 at home for a sick day last week. My philosophy is that, now that we're no longer a team, my job is not to support her career. To me, this has nothing to do with "what is good for the kids" because they'll be very well taken care of, regardless of how we arrange things between ourselves. Needless to say, if we were still together I'd do everything to accommodate her. I always did. When she left me, WAW said: "I'm grateful for all you've done for me, but now I need to be on my own." And she left me for a colleague at the new job I had helped her get.
Oh, I'm also watching Breaking Bad and one of the characters is dangerously flirting with a colleague. Before, would just have seen it as a plot point without much stress for me, but now it's a trigger and I'm really worried about what this character will do. Triggers are everywhere.
Well okay, I have a question. You say this:
My stance at the moment is to let her live her life while I reflect and try to focus on me. In January, I told her I didn't want to interact beyond the practicalities of the kids because I need to move on. I'm good at being silent and distant. The "no pursuing" rule is easy to apply for me because it means doing nothing. What I'm not so good at is detach, but the no-contact has helped me a lot. I see a therapist since BD.
But you also said this:
Feb 2-25 | Plans for moving abroad are nixed, D papers are delayed at my request, flirting experiments begin
Are you experimenting flirting with WW?
saind2 - Thanks a lot for stopping by. I greatly value your perspective and read everything I find in the other sitches.
Are you experimenting flirting with WW?
No, I'm not. Since she's with OM, I keep NC, other than for the kids, and even then it's quite minimal. I wish I could, but it seems anti-BD (no pursuing) and quite pointless given that she's about 5-6 months into a R with OM and 2-3 months into sharing an apartment full time. My understanding is that WW do not yet listen to their LBS at that stage.
The flirting I'm referring to is related to my discussions with IC. He's suggested, based on what I told him of my history, that I lack confidence a great deal around women. It would help me to get a little perspective on WAW if I could at least flirt with interesting strangers and see what kind of reaction I get. I'll grant him that these experiments did provide me some calm and PMA when they happened, but it's been a few weeks already.
GAL/PMA Report | Another sick day at home, but I was I was feeling better. Over dinner, I watched an episode of House M.D. involving a pregnant couple and it sparked a full-blown asthmatic-level crisis.
Mozza,
I feel you here. I've got those triggers too. My worse one is one of the Wounded Warrior's commercials that the man is severely injured. They are interviewing his wife and she's so appreciative and is standing behind her husband through all of this. I feel a) almost ashamed of complaining about my sitch and the pain I feel compared to their struggles and b) Jealous that the love that they have together is what I thought W and I had.
Also, we went on a trip to Disney World in June. Had a great family time, went out on a date just ourselves there, talked about going back, etc. Now every time one of those commercials comes on, it just reminds me of how much deception was occurring right under my nose. Also, how she had already planned OM rendevous while we were there and this 'plan' of hers was being executed.
Moment of doubt: I just realized that it's been nearly a month since a vet weighed in on my sitch. If any of them happen to come around here — Wonka, sandi2, 25yearsmlc, Starsky309, Train, MrBond, Cadet, Mach1 — is it because...
you see no hope and have given up on my sitch?
I'm just doing fine by myself?
there is just nothing to say at the moment?
you feel I don't follow the advice?
there isn't enough happening right now?
or something else?
I notice that other not-so-newcomers like Maybell, Card29 and HPoirot still get vets' input so all of a sudden, I'm a little worried.
Oh how much I have wanted to say this on my thread for a loooong time!!! I didn't even get the Cadet welcome so I've felt doomed from the beginning! Curious to see the response...
Something that has helped me meet new people (being a man) has been cooking classes! I have taken 3 now since my wife moved out. Two for Thai (which is something that I usually skip over) and one that was a broad Latino (Cuba/Puerto Rico/etc) food.
I am 35 and was probably the only single guy in every class. The rest were couples or single women (most going through a divorce). I have met and continue to talk to a few different women from said classes, which is a HUGE ego boost. Two of them are in the same situation I am in, their husbands left them and they are going through a divorce. I am not interested in dating any of them, we just text/talk for moral support. Frankly, I would date one of them, but I am just not ready for that. Look into it Mozza (and everyone else trying to GAL), it's actually quite fun!
The flirting I'm referring to is related to my discussions with IC
Thank goodness! (I think).
Moz, did you ever see that "Man Cave" thread? It seems like it doesn't exist anymore, not sure why, but the initial post did give some insight into confidence around women. Anyone know why it no longer exists?
EDIT: So digging seems to indicate that JCred got out of line in some way. Still, I'm a little disappointed that I at least can't read his initial, long post. It changed my perspective on a few man-related things. When I looked at some of my history through the lens he was presenting, some of it really became clear. Really useful stuff for a guy going through the trauma of losing his W to another man, about the most confidence-crushing thing that can happen to a guy.
Mozza,
You wrote:
Moment of doubt: I just realized that it's been nearly a month since a vet weighed in on my sitch. If any of them happen to come around here — Wonka, sandi2, 25yearsmlc, Starsky309, Train, MrBond, Cadet, Mach1 — is it because...
you see no hope and have given up on my sitch?
I'm just doing fine by myself?
there is just nothing to say at the moment?
you feel I don't follow the advice?
there isn't enough happening right now?
or something else?
I notice that other not-so-newcomers like Maybell, Card29 and HPoirot still get vets' input so all of a sudden, I'm a little worried.
I must admit that sometimes I find myself wondering whose threads I've missed as there are many newcomers coming here and it's hard to follow some.
Lately, I am pulling away from the DB site as there are some serious family issues that will require my attention very soon. Which means I will not be around the Boards much, if at all.
Now you asked about your sitch.
At this point, I feel that you are doing the right things so far as your W is still involved with the OM. Pull a bit back so W will need to put on her BGPs as she's told you she wanted to be on her own. Well...like it at all, W???!
Sandi, myself, and many others all say to the newbies that the WAW who wants to be "on her own" will need to put on her BGPs so she can see the stark contrast between "making it out on her own" with a loving family.
We despair at times when we read of Wet Noodle moments of the LBHs....so searingly dependable on the W that it pains us to read them here in the forums.
Some take longer than others.
What needs to happen for the LBHs with a WAW is to be courageous, decisive, and firm. Be a leader.
In your case, it was your put downs and negativity that pushed W away. You are finding a delicate balance between that and having W figuring things out on her own.
We cannot emphasize enough how GALing is essential in forging a new way of being for yourself and it is attractive to the WASes because you're making new discoveries. All of this makes you look more well-rounded.
I've recently slowed down to one daily update on these boards, but I think I will try to slow down even more. I need less WAW in my life and more... well, everything else. As much as DB is about saving myself, I want to see if a little break will help me think more about the right things.
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Wonka and sandi2 | Thank you. I take it that I'm on the right track and that, on the WAW front, I need to leave that soufflé in the oven without opening the door. We'll see what time does to it. We know that a month ago, things weren't good for her, with low moral and all meds back on, too much alcohol, insomnia and more.
Card29 | Yes, I took part in the man cave and was enthusiastic about the principle. I even made a few suggestions for discussions. But it became absolutely ridiculous with threats of violence for girlie men, etc. It was disappointing.
EyeTie | Excellent suggestion. I've taken one cooking class since the beginning of my sitch and did get to laugh with one girl, though it was way too early for me to even contemplate seeing her again. I love to cook and I'm keen to learn more.
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Detachment Report | I'm currently allergic to any contact with WAW. I don't want to see her, hear her voice, read her emails or texts. We still manage to have a little something about the kids every single day. It affects me too much and I need to get better.
PMA Report | This whole week, I've been sad, violently at times. I've even had moments where I was scared of my own crisis. Even after the crisis, I still reel from them. This week is one of the worst of the last three months, because of the cold/flu that keeps me from GALing much. I'm going to look into medication after all. I don't understand why I'm still so bad after six months.
GAL Report | Yesterday, I went for a long walk in the cold city while talking to my parents. I ended up in a part of town where I had last been with WAW and the kids, last summer. It was painful to associate the memories with the places. Not a great GAL. I had dinner alone at a local bar. I've been watching more TV than usual, again because of the cold/flu. Tonight, I'll hit the town for dinner again. Tomorrow, I get the kids back for a week.
Thank you Mozza for your words of wisdom. I greatly appreciate you.
Good luck in your situation. I sincerely hope you stop being allergic to your wife and things can get back to where you want them.
God Speed and I will say a prayer for you and your family.
FOOLISH
Mozza,
I too see myself starting to revert back to some of my old tendencies. You said TV, but I can see my zeal of keeping the house clean, the laundry put away and so on is starting to diminish. I see it a little more like I needed to keep 'busy' to stop from going crazy, but now I can just lay on the couch and end up falling asleep watching TV. I wouldn't be able to do that a couple months ago without my mind going into overdrive. I guess its a little good with the bad.
Mozza,
I have been on meds for depression since the first A back in 95. The meds have helped me a great deal. To be honest they probably saved my life!
I have to be very careful though, I like to have a beer with friends but it's not good for my PMA the next day. Alcohol, at the least neutralises the effectiveness of the meds.
Proper meds with IC and a lot of GAL may really help you. Real men can cry and real men may need to take meds, if you had to take cholesterol meds to be healthy you would. We can't be depressed and remain healthy either!
Jbird
Moment of doubt: I just realized that it's been nearly a month since a vet weighed in on my sitch. If any of them happen to come around here — Wonka, sandi2, 25yearsmlc, Starsky309, Train, MrBond, Cadet, Mach1 — is it because...
you see no hope and have given up on my sitch?
I'm just doing fine by myself?
there is just nothing to say at the moment?
you feel I don't follow the advice?
there isn't enough happening right now?
or something else?
I thought this thread was just a list of success stories - the title is misleading.
-PM
Mza
Maybe 10 ordinary DB posts=one vet mini post.
The vets don't visit my threads either but then I am here for the long haul. 14 months on and still in house S! Guess I am still a wet noodle!
Do drop by from time to time. Mza, your threads show how you have grown and developed.
V
Wonka
I do hope you have time to post to us. Your posts are so valuable to me, (selfishly) and I would love you to drop by and let me know how things are. Always happy to listen to a grumble or two if needs be.
V
Hi Mozza,
I can relate to being allergic to WAW. If it's what you need to do to feel better though, I agree, don't be in contact. It helps me too. Just do what you have to, and no more than that for now. The mindset of having almost indifference in your contact with your WAW, particularly when your emotions say otherwise is a difficult one to put into practice but crucial.
I've told my WAW that I can't see her in person, all I see is her in a thousand family photos and memories of good times.
It's too painful now I know that a D is coming for sure.
You should speak to your doctor about meds as they've also helped me. Obviously, they only take the edge off, they're no magic pill but hey, anything that helps, helps...right. You need to shake that cold/flu off ASAP too!!
As far as being places and it's painful when you associate better times with them, wouldn't it be better to think of those times and use them to lift your spirits?
What I mean to say is those times were real moments in history, in all your lives. Just because of your sitch doesn't mean they were any less real or they're being erased in some way. I try to look at these things for what they are...fond memories of a good life. OK, things have changed - they'll change again too, that's what life's all about.
I know it's all very well being philosophical about things (you know all these things yourself already), it's actually doing it that's hard.
You hang in there Mozza, things will improve for you one day.
Barry
Look into the meds. There are lot of different ones out, you can find one that will work for you.
With me I know they have saved my life. When this all started I was so down I was very close to ending it all, but a friend got me to make a phone call. Since then my meds have been adjusted and while I still get down, I don’t go that far down any more. There are things that have happened since that would have taken me back to where I was at the beginning if this. But I believe the medication helped level off the drop.
Mozza, I'm not on the boards enough anymore to stay with one poster for long. And I would say the same for a lot of the "vets" out there.
Just believe though, that you all, the ones posting here, are becoming those vets that you covet to post to you. You guys are the ones in the trenches, and doing the hard work.
Part of this journey, also, is regaining that trust that has been ripped from us. Trusting that we are doing the correct things, either for a relationship, or our children, most importantly...
For ourselves, and trusting IN ourselves, that we are not the evil person that we have been accused of.
YOU all are becoming those vets, and know your situation better than anyone here. You have been journaling, and monitoring your progress.
Is what you are doing, working ??
Typically, if you can step back, and let any situation "rest" for the 48 hour rule, the picture becomes amazingly clearer..
Trust that for yourself
You are doing well Mozza...
Mozza-
I would encourage you to look into meds. I was very resistant to going on meds until I noticed three months post BD that I spent half of a saturday literally, looking at a wall, wondering what the hell had happened to my life.
I called the doc and luckily we found the right combo the first go. I will say the first week getting on them was extremely rough - so please make sure you have a support system to help you that first week and you keep in close communication with your doctor.
Good luck to you!
I agree with Calibri regarding the first week or so, I felt even worse for about 10 days, with alsorts of dark thoughts running through my mind.
It passes though and will help. It just takes a while to work.
Mach1 | Thanks for stopping by. You're asking if what I'm doing is working. If it's a question about me, I'd say more or less. I need to step up the GAL and, by extension, the PMA. I'm also happy with the work I'm doing with IC and some books. If you're asking about the M, then I just don't know. I cut almost all communication with WAW. Last opportunity she got, she told me she's doing much better than in early February, thanks to taking up sports. So is she facing the consequences of her choice? Is she disillusioned by real life? I don't know. I try to trust the process and be patient.
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PMA Report | I'm doing much better. I'm almost over the flu, I had a good night sleep and the kids have arrived Friday night. I got some information about meds and it would be a long process, much longer than in the US. Also, I wonder if the side effects are worth it. Knowing me, I will now procrastinate until the next crisis.
GAL Report | We had a quiet Saturday at home, for lack of plans, and spent most of Saturday skating and eating with good friends. Tonight, I hosted a friend who's soon moving to to my city, on my street. Promising. Overall, I'm happy with the week-end.
Detachment Report | I'm doing better than last week. In fact, the thought that's on my mind is that I shouldn't want her back. She is a serial cheater with unrealistic expectations of love who seeks external validation to be happy. It's unlikely that my changes, which are necessary, will be sufficient to keep her in the long run. The problem is with her. This being said, I'm in love with her and I'm quite certain I would fall for her charms should she ask for R. Also, there are the kids whom I would really love to see full time. And then five years later, I'll be back here, crying my heart out...
Sounds like you are in a better place Mozza. All you can do is keep moving forward one baby step at a time. Life has a way of moving forward whether we
Want it to or not. Believe that there could be something wonderful awaiting you in your future.
Mach1 | Thanks for stopping by. You're asking if what I'm doing is working. If it's a question about me, I'd say more or less. I need to step up the GAL and, by extension, the PMA. I'm also happy with the work I'm doing with IC and some books. If you're asking about the M, then I just don't know. I cut almost all communication with WAW. Last opportunity she got, she told me she's doing much better than in early February, thanks to taking up sports. So is she facing the consequences of her choice? Is she disillusioned by real life? I don't know. I try to trust the process and be patient.
I'm not asking for anything specific actually. Maybe just a generalization, an all encompassing question about life. If that makes sense.
However...
You seem to be answering "yes" to the most important aspect, and that is about you, and yourself.
Detachment Report | I'm doing better than last week. In fact, the thought that's on my mind is that I shouldn't want her back. She is a serial cheater with unrealistic expectations of love who seeks external validation to be happy.
Shouldn't want her back ?
Because of ??
As long as you "think" in terms of judging her, you probably don't have to worry about her being back.
The journey that you are on, makes who she is, and what she is, irrelevant for now.
And it really isn't up to you to label her, judge her, or convict her of anything.
Stay true to yourself....it pays greater dividends in the end...
It's unlikely that my changes, which are necessary, will be sufficient to keep her in the long run. The problem is with her. This being said, I'm in love with her and I'm quite certain I would fall for her charms should she ask for R. Also, there are the kids whom I would really love to see full time. And then five years later, I'll be back here, crying my heart out...
Your changes shouldn't be, just to "keep" her. Changes are about the things that you don't like about yourself. For you, by you, and about you.
And by making those changes...IF that attracts her back, then that is a side benefit in making them.
If she chooses to never be attracted to you again ??
Then you still hold the advantage by making those changes.
Hey, Mozza!
I'm going to springboard a little off of what Mach1 wrote up there by also tying it into this, which you posted on sandi's new thread:
So, is she a WW who lost her morals or is she a serial cheater? Is it possible that those were two exceptions? If she's a serial cheater in your opinion, should I just cut my losses and hope that she'll never come back?
If you've read through my threads, you know that my H has cheated twice, too. Once in 2005 and again in 2014. I noticed you said in sandi's thread that you forgave your W's first infidelity on the spot. That's what I did, too. Coincidence? Probably not.
I am still struggling with my H's second A. We've been piecing our M back together for almost a year now. And it's very hard work. Sometimes I want to give up. I am burdened by the SAME questions you are asking: Is this a character flaw? Or is this his selfish, hurtful response to an unhappy M environment? (You can see me ask those very questions in some of my very first posts here after BD2 last year, and I've continued to ask them through the piecing phase.)
In my H's case, I don't think he's a "serial cheater," per se, although by *definition* he is. I do think he, by "nurture," is a selfish person. To the contrary, I tend to be more selfLESS, sometimes to a fault. I will neglect myself to "do" for others. I have struggled very hard with it. I've turned to my own unhealthy behaviors/vices to cope with the stress of carrying that load, those burdens. And that just leads to FURTHER issues. And THAT is where I realized I needed to work on ME.
Let me see if I can bring all that home a little (you know I ramble):
As sandi said in her response to you over on her thread, no one can know right now which one your W is. I can tell you that my H and I did our M no favors when he came back after A1 and I forgave him on the spot. We didn't identify or fix what was broken in the first place. Seems only natural NOW that we'd be dealing with the same problem again. That's why I'm probably in a minority here in thinking that a second A - for those of us who didn't fix an issue after the first one - is forgivable. *But only if the person who cheated is willing to join the LBS in acknowledging the problems in the M and then navigating the very hard road of piecing.*
I am still saddled with the big question of whether H will cheat again. I'm sure that'll linger in my mind forever. BUT, I'm not going to allow our M to slide back into old habits and patterns. (We weren't sleeping in the same bed for about a year before BD2 - I mean, helllooo? Did it not occur to me that I was helping create an environment for an already-established cheater to cheat again?? That hindsight. Sheesh.) But if I am meeting my H's needs and he cheats again, I will know it isn't because I had become a crappy W like I did the last time. If he cheats again even though I have changed MYSELF as a person and a W, then I will know it's HIM - and not our M - with the true problem. He also knows my boundary now. One more A, and there won't even be a conversation about it. I'll take myself to a L and file. Plain and simple.
And THAT is where our own self-improvement comes in, which Mach1 wrote about up there. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter which one your W is because you don't know and you may NEVER know. What matters is figuring out who YOU are and what you're willing to tolerate in your life and in a M. You turn yourself into the best man you can be.
If your W wants to return to your M, you can also make sure you are the best H you can be. You can wake up every day, deliberately choosing to meet your W's needs. If she cheats again? You will have your answer. If she doesn't cheat again? You will have your answer.
But once you find yourself, you won't be saddled - or at least feel burdened - with the same questions you have right now. Because you KNOW you'll be okay, no matter who (or where) your W ends up being. That's why this journey is actually more about saving yourself than your M. Saving your M, if it ends up being worth saving, is just the coveted "icing" - an oft "natural consequence," if you will, of you loving ... truly LOVING ... who you see looking back at you when you look in a mirror. Because that kind of self-love and self-awareness and self-confidence is powerful. And it will make you irresistible to *anyone* worth her salt.
I've been in love before.
The hardest part is when you're in it.
Train | Thank you so much. What a fantastic post of hope and trust. These are the two tings that my heart wants more than anything, but my head is not there. Part of me wants to shut the door on her for good because I truly believe no one, not even me, will make her faithful and committed for more than 5 years. But another part of me is in love with her (still...) and hopes to reconcile and live the rest of our lives together. I was able to forgive her first A on the spot because I couldn't bear the thought of being without her and I feel like she still has this power over me and will always be because I value commitment more than her, who values passion first.
It's interesting that you're dealing now with the cause of the A. I'm concerned that in my case it's unworkable. We haven't had much of a talk about it, but she gave me the same reason both times: lack of passion. Do I have any chance of being in a long term relationship with kids and feed the passion for ever and ever? There can certainly be improvements on my part, with or without her, but I will never be perfect, routine sets in and I don't want to live in the fear that a slip on my part means she will cheat or leave.
I disagree or don't understand when you say that it won't matter if she cheats again because I will be my best self and know that I'll be fine if she leaves again ("But once you find yourself, you won't be saddled - or at least feel burdened - with the same questions you have right now. Because you KNOW you'll be okay, no matter who (or where) your W ends up being."). I know that I'll be fine and always have, time heals everything. Yet, I never want to hurt like this again. Also, I value commitment and long term relationships and I want to be with the same person for as long as possible, support and trust her. To me, every year adds value to a R, and I want to be with someone who shares this assessment.
Mach1 | Thanks for your post. If it doesn't show that I do all of this for myself, then I'm not communicating well. Again, I give my W no way of even seeing my changes. I don't see a contradiction between working on myself and reflecting on her nature. I don't dwell on her every move (I try not to know about it), I think about whether that's someone I want in my life and that seems central to my sitch. I wouldn't stop saving myself and improving even if I decided to never let her back, should she ask. Let's face it though: I'm Divorce Busting because I hope to Bust my Divorce. As Train's post shows, people with serial cheaters struggle with that question.
rppfl | Yes, it's hard to be in love, especially when it's not reciprocated. I had my first girlfriend at 20, so you can imagine that I spent the years from 12 to 20 yo in this situation, including the sensitive teen years. It leaves traces and one of them is that I find it normal and acceptable to be in love with someone who does not love me back; I don't detach easily and I don't feel like there are many other options. I was never dumped though, so this feeling now is a new experience.
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PMA Report | Yesterday, we passed the six months mark of my S. It feels like a milestone. I wonder why I'm still so sad, but six months is not a long time to get over a M. I also read an article suggesting it takes some 18 months, so I will just accept my emotions for a while. I'm much better than four or five months ago anyway. Still, I plan to bring up my sadness with my IC today.
Detachment report | W and I barely get in touch, even about the kids, so I was surprised to get a text at around midnight yesterday telling me that there was a fire near her place and that she was fine. It turned out to be far enough from her place. For a long while after she left, she turned to me for questions of safety. I'm surprised that she did again yesterday. I cried a little as I always do when I hear from her and then fell asleep. I only responded this morning, thanking her for the info.
GAL Report | A close friend took me to a sports game on Tuesday evening. It was a great activity, even though I don't follow sports much. We had excellent tickets. I'm really grateful to have friends like this who are very supportive and present. Other than that, I have the kids this week, so other than working and keeping them happy (fed, rested, clean, amused, etc...), I don't GAL all that much during the week.
For the record, here is what sandi2 replied to my question on a
different thread about the wayward wife. I'll reply in a post below.
Mozza, sorry that I am just now getting back to your question.
The reason I'm still wondering relates to your comment about the moral character of the W. My W cheated on me in 2009 with another sweet talking colleague. She kept it a secret and told me that she would leave me because we were incompatible or something to that effect. As she told me, she slept with him twice during a business trip. She said at the time that she saw the light and confessed her A to me, telling me that she would stay if I forgave her, which I did on the spot. We moved on but little changed in our couple past the first couple of months.
So fast forward to 2014 and, once again, we're incompatible, she needs to be alone, to find herself, etc. Our M is a disappointment because it only delivers half-emotions. The original romance is gone and we fight too much. Turns out there's another OM, a colleague again.
So, is she a WW who lost her morals or is she a serial cheater? Is it possible that those were two exceptions? If she's a serial cheater in your opinion, should I just cut my losses and hope that she'll never come back?
I don't wish to make this any more complicated that it already may be. Psychologists would probably break it down into more complex categories, IDK. But trying to keep basically to where I started, I believe it is what's in the heart before an A ever happens. Whatever moral and spiritual/religious foundation they received while their character was being molded in childhood to adulthood, IMHO (and I am certainly no expert), would have a great influence on those type of decisions in life. It does not always prevent a person from being wayward, b/c it is an act of volition. People can change (either direction) and do not always adhere to their parents or even their own previous belief system. And since we know a WW is acting from emotions, there will be a clash between what she knows in her heart is right & wrong with what she is desiring/feeling.
I went online to copy the definition of the word "wayward" and this is what it gave:
Difficult to control or predict because of unusual or perverse behavior. synonyms: willful, headstrong, stubborn, obstinate, obdurate, perverse, contrary, disobedient, insubordinate, undisciplinedThe Bible refers to a the "strange woman," as the King James Version calls her. Other translations refer to this immoral woman as a "seductress," "adulteress," "wayward wife," "loose woman." So, is she a WW who lost her morals or is she a serial cheater?
IMO, it is not an issue of
loosing but of
choosing. We
should make our decisions based on what we know is right & wrong, and not on how we feel. I don't know your W's moral character, but I would guess she knows it is not right to be in a M and be involved with another man. She
allowed her
emotions to lead her astray, instead of doing what she knew to be right. She was not innocent. She wanted something strong enough to put her M and family at risk to have it, although it was wrong in several areas of moral character. B/c she chooses to do what she knows is immorally wrong for a married woman, she becomes wayward in her thinking, emotions, and behavior.
A person can also choose to come back from that state of being wayward and begin acting on what they
know is the
right thing to do. Apparently, that is what your W chose to do after her A in 2009. However, I can't remember the details, so I don't know if she chose to simply do the right thing, or if there was another motivation. Make sense? In other words, some people may appear to walk the walk but their heart is not feeling it.
Then your W has another A only five years later. As I said, I don't know her moral character and can only tell by her actions that she is
either giving over to her wayward desires and allowing those feelings to be in charge of her decisions in spite of what she knows to be morally wrong....or
else she has never had strong moral character which is now evident by her choices. To say it bluntly, some people just don't care.
I believe we choose to have moral character. It helps tremendously to have adults who are our models and try earnestly to pass forward, but ultimately, it is up to each of us.
All I can say is according to her
actions, she is definitely a wayward wife at this time. Would she ever make changes and be faithful for the duration of her life? IDK. She's had two A's in five years while M. I, personally, see it as a high risk when there has been more than one A.
You are the one who has to decide if you believe she would ever stay faithful and if you could take that risk again. Could you ever completely trust her again? ((Mozza))
Sorry for such a lengthy answer.
I don't want to live in the fear that a slip on my part means she will cheat or leave again.
I disagree or don't understand when you say that it won't matter if she cheats again because I will be my best self and know that I'll be fine if she leaves again ("But once you find yourself, you won't be saddled - or at least feel burdened - with the same questions you have right now. Because you KNOW you'll be okay, no matter who (or where) your W ends up being."). I know that I'll be fine and always have, time heals everything. Yet, I never want to hurt like this again. Also, I value commitment and long term relationships and I want to be with the same person for as long as possible, support and trust her. To me, every year adds value to a R, and I want to be with someone who shares this assessment.
Mozz, I understand what you are saying. I voiced a similar concern on my thread. The response I received was awesome. This feeling is a response to your fear. It will diminish when you trust YOURSELF. You trust that what you've learned and the changes you've made will carry you through anything that comes your way. You are strong. Yes, it would be painful if W cheated/left again. You can't control that or know if it will happen in the future. You can only trust yourself and how you will respond if it does.
More later, but I should have been more specific in that part. I meant that in the context of her being wayward and not necessarily in the event you reconcile. BUT, I love Heart's response.
If you're up to reading my (sometimes speculative and irrelevant) ramblings (lol), I will dig in to a couple other things you mentioned when I'm back on my computer.
sandi2 - Thank you so much for taking the time to respond at length to my questions. They are very important to me at the moment and I greatly appreciate your insights.
I don't wish to make this any more complicated that it already may be. Psychologists would probably break it down into more complex categories, IDK. But trying to keep basically to where I started, I believe it is what's in the heart before an A ever happens. Whatever moral and spiritual/religious foundation they received while their character was being molded in childhood to adulthood, IMHO (and I am certainly no expert), would have a great influence on those type of decisions in life.
My W had a paradoxical upbringing: on the one hand, she was spoiled as an only child of wealthy parents. She went to the best schools, on fantastic holidays, she never had a summer or part-time job in her life because her parents paid everything for her (tuition, allocation, rent, etc.) until she was with me, at 24. On the other hand, her mom was authoritarian and left little room for my W's own personality. My W had to do what good and serious people do. She's not even interested in her degrees' topics. It's only in recent years that she has started following her heart in her career, with my support and encouragement.
The impact, in my opinion, is that on the one hand she got more reward than the effort she put in, both financially and in interpersonal relations. She developed a strong flight mechanism. When it became challenging with me, she flew again rather than fix it, like she does for her jobs, her cities, her friends. I can't believe I didn't see it coming. On the other hand, she's had a hard time to discover herself and got to it late, so now she's on a roll and decided that the next step was without me.
IMO, it is not an issue of loosing but of choosing. We should make our decisions based on what we know is right & wrong, and not on how we feel. I don't know your W's moral character, but I would guess she knows it is not right to be in a M and be involved with another man. She allowed her emotions to lead her astray, instead of doing what she knew to be right. She was not innocent. She wanted something strong enough to put her M and family at risk to have it, although it was wrong in several areas of moral character. B/c she chooses to do what she knows is immorally wrong for a married woman, she becomes wayward in her thinking, emotions, and behavior.
My W had been cheated on when she was in college and she was still traumatized by the experience when we met. She was like a scared animal about it. Being faithful and finding a faithful man was at the top of her list. It was a no-brainer for me so it gave her reassurance. Yet, she cheated twice on me and now I'm the scared animal. So yes, I believe that there is a clash between her values and her behavior. I'm not sure she'll ever be able to overcome her emotions to live according to her values though.
Of course, I haven't resolved the question and don't face this dilemma immediately as my W is far from showing signs she wants to reconcile. I'll continue my thinking about it and welcome very much the experience of others who have to cope with serial cheaters.
Of course, I haven't resolved the question and don't face this dilemma immediately as my W is far from showing signs she wants to reconcile. I'll continue my thinking about it and welcome very much the experience of others who have to cope with serial cheaters.
Mozza,
For me, W told me when I confronted about OM that there was "other" things that happened over our R. When she finally told me, she said she kissed or tried to kiss 4 different men over the period of our R (15 years.) Now, she didn't have to tell me that at the time, because I definitely had no clue (well she did tell me one of them after it happened like 13 years ago, they were both drunk.)
Does that make her a serial cheater? IDK and she may have been using it to bolster her idea that now I knew about OM, this would help drive me further away. However, I did see this in her personality and maybe your W is the same way. I look back and now I see W always seemed to be 'missing' something. It manifested itself in a bunch of different ways, but she just never could be satisfied with just being her. There was always the 'next thing' that she needed. I was okay with that, because we were building our lives together (college, job, house, kids) but now we were at the point were life kind of was put on hold because of the kids. Its almost like W got 'antsy' because things were settled and we were in a groove, or so I thought. I think that symptom of always looking for something is similar to cheating, and 25years said it a while ago. There's something within 'them' that is missing and not just in the marriage. Since they are not satisfied with themselves, being happy with yourself is not attainable. Then the pursuit of happiness is in other people and situations. Its one of the things that I think DB tries to prevent in us as LBH. Our happiness is not in being in a R with our W, but in who we are. I tell people a lot, I'm happy with my life with the exception of the big issue with my W. I truly look at everyday and at some point realize how lucky I am. I tried to talk to W about that casually at some point and she just didn't seem to understand it at all. I think she thought I was not being genuine.
A lot of people say that 'a cheater never changes' however, I think that as long as the cheater identifies, resolves and continues to resolve the issue that lead to cheating, it probably won't happen again. If they are stopping the cheating because of convenience, than I think the behavior comes back.
My W has always had a vein of selfishness in her, between that and not being comfortable with herself are the two things that I've identified that she needs to change pretty substantially for us to R.
Just my thoughts
I don't always know what to write in my thread because things are so quiet with WAW. It seems like I should be reporting on our interactions, but then I remember this this should be about how I'm moving on and saving myself. So, here goes.
Thank you so much to all of you who take the time to share your thoughts. I hope that others benefit from the conversation, much like I do when I read your threads.
Heart14 | Thanks for sharing your insights on how to cope with the fear of a cheating spouse. It's still hard for me to believe that I'll be just fine if it happens again. I seem to need more reassurance that it won't happen. At the same time, I have realized that no one is safe from cheating, not even all of us here that might be cheaters under the right set of circumstances, as impossible as it is to consider right now.
Train | Absolutely! I'd love to hear your "ramblings". I find your experience very relatable and I like to read you.
MCS | Thanks for sharing your experience. I'd say that my WAW has the same instinct to be looking for the next thing and it's interesting to think of it as a form of cheating. On that not, I would consider kissing someone else while drunk a very minor kind of cheating, certainly not ground for S. Another reason for the flirting experiment is that I'd like to play down sex. It's so sacred and unattainable to me, yet I realize that there's a whole world out there that is more casual about it and I've a thing or two to learn from them.
______________
IC Report | I bought a book along the lines of what we hear here and in NMMNG and with my IC. The translation of the title would be "Stop being nice, be real" (it's not the one you'll find under this English title). What strikes me is that the same message is repeated across many places. It's like I stumble upon a universal truth (IC agrees): find out who you are and be true to it. Good things will happen to you. The book gave me a realization: it's not really about knowing exactly who you are, wht you need and desire (it's impossible), but seeking to know it (IC agrees). I thought I had to know it real soon, but it seems like I've already achieved my goal by asking the question.
Flirting report | No real life experience to report. It's been weeks and it concerns me that I'm no longer getting over my fears of approaching women. On the other hand, I was recently recommended (by a 21 yo guy!) to read "Models" by Mark Manson which is about attracting women through honesty. It's not one of those books with ready-made pickup lines. It seems to be a mix between these books about discovering yourself and books about approaching women. I've read one chapter and it looks promising.
Detachment Report | My IC observed that many things that I do are still done with my WAW in mind. I hate to admit it, but it's true. I'm always aware of when I do something that might get to her. I know I shouldn't and I'm getting better at it. She posted twice on her blog and it came through me through channels that I had set up years ago to monitor blogs. Each time, I removed my subscription to her blog, so I should no longer see them. I did read the posts (nothing too personal, more about her readings) and I did learn that she's now using a night light and is double checking the locks because she's anxious. (stinking thinking alert!) It seems like her OM is not really providing the sense of security that I was giving her.
GAL Report | Hm, not enough to report. I only went out for dinners alone all three days and today (Sunday), I went for a bit of late afternoon shopping. My plans for snowboarding feel through at the last minute. I had a difficult moment Saturday night where I could see in a mirror my reflection alone at a table in the restaurant. I don't mind being alone, but I mind being without WAW under these circumstances. The me I'm used to would be at a table with W and two kids, not alone. After that, I cancelled my plans to go for a drink and came back home to cry...
PMA Report | Not so good, but not all that bad. It was not a fun week-end, but it wasn't a depressed one either. After six months, things are not as painful as they used to be in the weeks following BD.
Hi Mozza,
Its interesting that your thinking about whether you could trust your wife again after all of this. Its an important line of thinking but it may also be 'borrowing trouble from tomorrow'
That sounds like an interesting book. I've also found that there is a lot of common ground about being true to yourself and to live your life as best you can, the rest will take care of itself. Not sure if thats too much expectation but it seems like a good principle
Just looking at your GAL report and am curious what sort of GAL plans do you have that involve a more social aspect?
Anyway hope your doing well
jim00987! I'm so glad to see you around. You haven't updated us on your sitch in over two weeks and in fact your thread is locked. Will you start a new one? I have questions for you, but I'll keep them for your thread.
I kind of agree that I'm borrowing trouble from the future by asking if I can ever trust my W again. It's not like it's an immediate concern. I probably do it because I have trouble detaching and taking my focus away from her. If I come to the conclusion that I can't trust her, then I'll move on for good. But it seems like her attitude in any reconciliation attempt would make a whole difference, and that I can't know until it happens. So I should probably rest it.
On the GAL, honestly I have next to no plans when I don't have the kids. Tonight, I'm having dinner with a friend, Wednesday I'm playing badminton and Thursday I might see another friend. But I'm not volunteering anywhere, I'm not taking regular classes, I haven't joined any kind of group, etc.
PatientMan kindly
replied to my post about flirting and dating on MCS' thread. I copy it and respond here because it's less relevant for MCS and TLEE86.
_______________
PatientMan: Thank you for taking the time to share your perspective. It is certainly useful for me and all who think about this and there are several on these boards. You have clarity about this topic.
I get the sense that we will never see eye to eye on this, so it is probably better not to reply to each comment until we find some sort of agreement. Let me then respond in a more general way.
I am still married to my WAW and promised to be faithful to her in my wedding vows. I meant it and I abode by it throughout our relationship, even when she offered me to be unfaithful in return for her 2009 indiscretion. So why do I feel free to be unfaithful now? Because my WAW has broken the M contract
and moved away from it. This pledge was between us, not between me and a piece of paper and not between me and God because I'm not religious. The day that my WAW was unfaithful, in 2009, I did not feel freed from my commitment to her because she wanted to make the relationship work (we only got married the following year). The difference is that this time my WAW has completely and unambiguously freed herself from our mutual commitment. She left me for an OM and now lives with him. She is only waiting to D because here it takes one year - in other jurisdictions it would have been over in 30 days. She's given me the green light to be with other women on the day she left home, saying that "all options are open but we shouldn't live our lives according to this".
Women, especially WAW, are not attracted to a man who pledges to be faithful to their wedding vows when they act the way that my WAW does. I don't see strength in being faithful to my WAW, in fact I see weakness. It would not be self-respect for me to wait on a woman who has rejected me so clearly and is living a new life with an OM. In fact, I would be a mockery of a man by pledging to be faithful to her under these circumstances. Holding on to your promises is not an absolute and circumstances change. Not being the first to break a contract is important, but people will walk circles around us if they know that they can commit us for longer than they do. In this case, I'm not one to live an open marriage. Should she want to be back, it would be another change in circumstances. Should I have met someone "better" in the meantime, this is a risk that she's chosen to take at BD.
By the way, I don't know that I'll have to sleep with other women to feel self-respect again. The mere fact that I feel free to do it goes a long way. Taking action has been a real challenge for me and I've avoided situations where I had a chance to flirt. But this is not about my actions anyway, but my mindset and intentions.
Notice that I only consider this course of action under the extreme circumstances of my sitch. In cases where there's been no cheating or there is still some sort of mutual commitment, or even early into an extreme sitch, I don't think it's appropriate.
Do I want to have fun by sleeping with other women? Yes. Fun is nothing to be ashamed of. I plan on being very clear about my intentions. I wouldn't be the first one to have sex with people without spending the rest of my life with them, in fact this is how a vast majorities of coupling occurs. I also acknowledge my sexual needs without shame and frankly I'm looking forward to the touch of a woman. Reproduction is a carnal desire like hunger and thirst and is experienced by all forms of life.
I hope this clarifies and especially that it helps those who struggle to come up with their own answer for their sitch.
By the way, I don't know that I'll have to sleep with other women to feel self-respect again. The mere fact that I feel free to do it goes a long way.
Interesting... I have done a tiny amount of flirting with no possibility of sex, but I feel like my self-respect started improving when I started standing up for my own needs (with STBX and others). Sex had nothing to do with it. Think this is a man-woman thing or something else?
If it is ok I thought that I might chip in on the flirting issue. I dance, sometimes blues dancing with some fantastic dance partners in a dance that lasts for max 3 mins. During that time you are connecting with another human, your focus is on partnering with them. And yes it's flirty.
I see this as intent why do we flirt and connect?
My intent is to make the dance enjoyable, have a better connection, it is never a prelude to a peccadillo, to iniate a sexual encounter, a prelude to intimacy of a carnal kind. It is pleasant nice to meet you, enjoyed dancing with you thank you.
So, dating is different, it is the intention of starting the research for a new partner, a testing of others. Because I am ready for it, because I like the other person, because H is behind me, because I am completely free for a new R. If I am choosing some wonderful new partner then I want to treat them as I would like to be treated With kindness, compassion, interest and friendship. As a person with right to be treated with respect even if it is one date without chemistry. I would like an RD, OD, MCS, Edz, Jim kind of man who has values and appreciates mine. I read on RDs thread he would be looking for the equivalent if his M eventually ceased.
Some try dating but they are unready and decide it is not time for them. They are not truly free and it would complicate their stand for their M.
After this experience with H then it will be a long time before I can reach that space if ever. And yes, I have a high sex drive, up to me to manage that myself. Revenge sex or using someone as a release is not me and really I will not want to be with any man for more than 10 minutes who wants to treat me that way. I feel I am like many women, sex gets better the more involved the R.
My 2 c worth!
V
Mza I posted this on MCS thread.
I see your perspective a little, WW has been unfaithful to you and you feel you need connection with another.
However I would pose the following: the superficial connection may give you release but I suspect leave you feeling emptier than when you started. The type of person with whom you might recycle your current experience is the most likely partner in this or worse. It sounds as if a superficial connection is all you want and this is the majority of experience. If so why not buy a sex toy? Why treat yourself and another like blow up dolls? I for one see this route as 'unfun' and definitely hazardous to health and spirit. Even if you are 'upfront' about your intentions, what type of partner would join you on your fun experience?
Connection with a loving woman could leave you feeling guilty if you have the intention to reconnect with W.
I think I would be the first to say Mza go date, have a lovely time, steal a passionate kiss, if Mza came across as calm and ready. My concern for Mza is that the thoughts he expresses if acted on May leave Mza with an empty heart and in a worse place.
I say this from my heart Mza
V
PatientMan kindly
replied to my post about flirting and dating on MCS' thread. I copy it and respond here because it's less relevant for MCS and TLEE86.
_______________
PatientMan: Thank you for taking the time to share your perspective. It is certainly useful for me and all who think about this and there are several on these boards. You have clarity about this topic.
I get the sense that we will never see eye to eye on this, so it is probably better not to reply to each comment until we find some sort of agreement. Let me then respond in a more general way.
I am still married to my WAW and promised to be faithful to her in my wedding vows. I meant it and I abode by it throughout our relationship, even when she offered me to be unfaithful in return for her 2009 indiscretion. So why do I feel free to be unfaithful now? Because my WAW has broken the M contract
and moved away from it. This pledge was between us, not between me and a piece of paper and not between me and God because I'm not religious. The day that my WAW was unfaithful, in 2009, I did not feel freed from my commitment to her because she wanted to make the relationship work (we only got married the following year). The difference is that this time my WAW has completely and unambiguously freed herself from our mutual commitment. She left me for an OM and now lives with him. She is only waiting to D because here it takes one year - in other jurisdictions it would have been over in 30 days. She's given me the green light to be with other women on the day she left home, saying that "all options are open but we shouldn't live our lives according to this".
Women, especially WAW, are not attracted to a man who pledges to be faithful to their wedding vows when they act the way that my WAW does. I don't see strength in being faithful to my WAW, in fact I see weakness. It would not be self-respect for me to wait on a woman who has rejected me so clearly and is living a new life with an OM. In fact, I would be a mockery of a man by pledging to be faithful to her under these circumstances. Holding on to your promises is not an absolute and circumstances change. Not being the first to break a contract is important, but people will walk circles around us if they know that they can commit us for longer than they do. In this case, I'm not one to live an open marriage. Should she want to be back, it would be another change in circumstances. Should I have met someone "better" in the meantime, this is a risk that she's chosen to take at BD.
By the way, I don't know that I'll have to sleep with other women to feel self-respect again. The mere fact that I feel free to do it goes a long way. Taking action has been a real challenge for me and I've avoided situations where I had a chance to flirt. But this is not about my actions anyway, but my mindset and intentions.
Notice that I only consider this course of action under the extreme circumstances of my sitch. In cases where there's been no cheating or there is still some sort of mutual commitment, or even early into an extreme sitch, I don't think it's appropriate.
Do I want to have fun by sleeping with other women? Yes. Fun is nothing to be ashamed of. I plan on being very clear about my intentions. I wouldn't be the first one to have sex with people without spending the rest of my life with them, in fact this is how a vast majorities of coupling occurs. I also acknowledge my sexual needs without shame and frankly I'm looking forward to the touch of a woman. Reproduction is a carnal desire like hunger and thirst and is experienced by all forms of life.
I hope this clarifies and especially that it helps those who struggle to come up with their own answer for their sitch.
I understand that you think a year is too long to wait without moving forward in some form of a relationship with a woman. I disagree with it (most people need far longer than a year to be ready for another relationship), but I do understand it.
To your vows, you likely said something along the lines of "in sickness and in health, for richer or poorer, in good times and bad".
Yes?
I am also presuming that when you uttered those words, or ones like them, there was no qualifying statement or clause attached to them. No, "Unless you break them first" or "until you cheat on me twice" or "until we feel differently"...correct?
You spoke your vows to your spouse, in the presence of the people in attendance, and - most importantly - to yourself. You said you would do x, y, z. Period.
So while you may feel
justified, and while most people will
understand, it still doesn't change the fact that you are consciously choosing to betray your own word because it suits you and is generally acceptable.
Again, if that is the kind of man you are and want to be, it is absolutely a free country and you are certainly entitled to live it within the legally and socially permissible framework, but I am talking about something better. I will never promise it is the easy way, but I
can speak to its virtue.
For example, let's say down the road you are ready to marry someone new. She will certainly know you are a good man (otherwise she wouldn't be marrying you, right?), and she will most certainly understand why you chose to move on from your commitment to your current wife while still in the bounds of your marriage, believing you are a respectable man whose word can be relied upon.
But, in the back of her mind may be the thought, "He says he will do this, but he has proven that in the past he is willing to go back on what he says when it suits him. I wonder what that means for me?"
Alternatively, you have the opportunity to offer your future bride an indescribable gift. The gift that no matter what is going on, no matter what other people think, no matter what is acceptable or not,
she will KNOW that
YOU ARE A MAN OF YOUR WORD. She will be able to see that from how you conducted yourself in your previous marriage that was unsuccessful. You were willing to delay temporary and fleeting happiness for something worth much more! And what a better foundation for a marriage!
If you do not see a valuable difference between those two futures, then I am of little service to you.
To weakness?
First, it is only weak
if you think it is weak. Personally I believe it to be far weaker to succumb to temptation and impatience, unable to postpone desires, jumping into a new relationship (however short, carnal, and understood by both parties) deluding yourself into thinking that this new relationship will magically fix your problems or ease your pain (rather than delay it).
I believe it to be weak to have no other means to command respect than to 'show' the spouse (or former-spouse) how you've moved on by engaging in other relationships. That is - in fact - the OPPOSITE of moving on.
Being dependent on others for your happiness is WEAK. Being healthy, happy, and whole on your own is STRENGTH.
Again, if you do not see a valuable difference in those two, then I am of little service to you.
However, in order to reach the conclusion for your justification, you must used the flawed logic that there are only two options:
1) A doormat who never has sex with anyone else
2) A cheater who won't wait for his divorce to be final to have sex with anyone else
Given those two options, I can see why you would pick option #2. I disagree with it, but I understand it.
What you are missing are alternate options, most notably:
3) Don't be a doormat, but remain faithful while married
4) Pursue divorce and, when it is dissolved, pursue whatever relationship you think is best
I assure you it is possible to keep your word and not be a doormat. You said "Women, especially WAW, are not attracted to a man who pledges to be faithful to their wedding vows when they act the way that my WAW does."
I have to ask, are you seriously arguing that women find it attractive when a man cheats on his wife because his wife has been cheating on him? That's what reels them in?
Regardless, I also have to ask: how would anyone know what you do on your personal time? Are you planning on keeping your W up to date on your sexual encounters? If she isn't kept current with regards to your sex life, how would that possibly be any variable that impacted the equation of how she respects you?
It should be obvious to you now that what you do with your personal life has no bearing on how your wife respects you. And if she happens to be a woman who passes judgement on you because you don't flaunt relationships in her face to (fallaciously) prove to her that you have moved on, then that says a great deal about HER lack of character, and
nothing about your respectability. I can't imagine caring about the respect of that type of person anyway.
Don't you want to be a man whose word is oak? And don't you want to be with a woman who values that kind of a man? Doesn't that sound better than just saying whatever you want, knowing you can go back on it whenever it is convenient?
Regarding your 'sexual needs': Don't piddle on my boots and tell me it's raining. You 'need' food. You 'need' water. Without those two you will eventually die. Without sex you will not eventually die.
While the idea of an extended period of time without sex is not a palatable one (to ANYone), let's not pretend that it is something it is not. You are not having sex out of biological necessity, a matter of your survival. Again, as with your ~"there are only these two options" flawed logic, you are either blinding yourself to the truth because you want to justify poor behavior, or - even worse - you actually believe what you have written.
To the former: I hope you take the blinders off and make responsible, informed decisions that aren't based on lies. That is not to suggest that my conclusions are the only way to live life, I just sincerely do hope your decisions are well thought out for your own health and well being.
To the latter: I hope you found my post informative. Let me know if you have questions.
Lastly, and by far most importantly, is I have absolutely no desire to get into internet debates with anyone. That is NOT what this is. I wrote all of this out for one reason:
I see someone who has been rejected by his spouse, is hurting, and is on the brink of ringing a bell that can't be un-rung. I am here
only of SINCERE intentions. I get that this post may be heavy-handed, but when I see someone lying to himself to justify behavior, it sends off all kinds of red flags in my mind. A general rule of thumb is if you have to lie to get what you want,
then it's probably a bad idea to go after what you think you want. I not attempting to force you to adopt my moral code, I am only attempting to hold up a mirror so you are sure you are not violating your own.
Be sure your decisions are based on whole and good information. Just because your wife is acting a certain way doesn't obligate YOU to act a certain way in retaliation. Your code of conduct is not dependent upon anyone else. There is another way.
As always, it is your call. All the best!
-PM
Mozza,
Tough situation you find yourself in right now with waiting out D and feeling like you are ready to have sex with someone else. One year seem like an abnormally long process.
I understand the desire and feelings you have, but I agree with what PM said above ^. My vow was to my wife not to God or a piece of paper just as you have mentioned, but I still would not pursue any sort of relationship while still married in the eyes of the law.
My XW never moved in with OM, so my opinion may have been different if I was in your situation. I guess my only advice is to make sure you fully understand the consequences of your actions if you decide to pursue another woman.
I was so committed to my W that when we were separated I could not even cheat on her while dreaming. I specifically remember a couple different times where I was dreaming and had the opportunity to have "sex" with someone else and I politely turned them down because I was married.
I would say that if you feel like this is something you want to pursue why not take it super slow and just get friendly of flirt lightly with some women and see what that does for your self esteem. I know my has been smashed because of the OM and I often wonder how desirable I am to women. Even now when I can't a cute smile from a random girl it feels great.
Well, I didn't mean to start this type of debate, but I figured that I should weigh in a little. I agree, this is a very personal choice with every person having a different basis on how to seek guidance, some from religion, from their own morals, from the law, whatever.
I get the feeling of having these needs and desiring to have them met. I think we all here because this isn't something we take lightly. An open marriage is not in the cards. For Mozza, I can understand his view totally. I don't see M as just a contract, but given his circumstances, I see where I may feel the same way. I also agree with PM that it does complicate things. My only advice is not to do what you 'feel' at the moment, but understand the consequences of any decision one way or another. I think that's what PM was trying to say.
For me, I'm going to do my best to wait this out. However, I see my sitch slightly different than Mozza's. I've said that if my W could sit down and have a (real) conversation with me and tell me this is what she wanted, I may feel divorced, I may not. For me, it's a religious thing right now because I do feel that my commitment was with God too and this is the 'worse' and in 'sickness' of my vows, but that's just my belief. Without that, for me Divorce papers are just that, papers. I Say as long as folks out here consider their options and be careful not to get caught in a situation that they find switching their values (either way) without thinking about it, do whatever.
Mozza, just wanted to chime in, especially since you've commented on my thread numerous times and are aware of my experiences over the past month.
PM makes some good points. I too sense that your debating on dating/sex is more out of feeling hurt and rejection than it is feeling detached and fully ready to move on. You're 'only' 6 mos into S, so my recommendation would be to wait until you feel fully detached and know that no guilt will come of your actions (I remember 6 mos in, thinking I was going to explode if I didn't have sex- I didn't). You could easily justify your actions considering the status of your sitch, but I sense that you'd have some regret afterwards.
However, the decision is obviously yours. We can only provide advice based on our own situations, morals, what you've posted, etc. I don't recall names, but I know I've read posts on these boards of LBS's dating prior to D being finalized and they've received positive feedback. I've also seen the opposite- posters being discouraged from dating (the way your thread seems to be leaning). I think a variety of factors go into that- who's commenting on the threads, the situation, the emotional status of the LBS, length of the S... you get my point.
With that being said, I see no problem in you getting out and flirting and would actually encourage it. It's a huge boost in confidence simply exchanging smiles/eye contact or giving compliments. I actually did it earlier with the older, married cashier at Bath and Body Works! Big smile, friendly conversation, some jokes about a guy being in a candle/fragrance store on my own...Because there's 0% of anything happening, I treat it almost like a game or test. While these little encounters don't meet your 'primal need', they do build up over time and help to fill your 'need' of having that male/female connection that you're missing.
Long story short (too late)- whatever you decide, make sure you aren't acting out of impulse or revenge.
Wow, I'm really grateful for everybody coming to contribute to this discussion. I will read and reread these posts several times and maybe tackle them in different responses. For now, I will only try to clarify a few things.
1. It is not because my W cheated on me that I want to date. She cheated on me in 2009 and I turned down her offer to have a "pass" to make up for it. It's because this time she has completely walked away from the M six months ago and is now living with OM. So it's not a revenge, otherwise I would have done it long ago.
2. I don't want my W to know that I'm dating. That's why I don't create online profiles for instance. This is not at all about her reactions, in fact it's some of the most personal stuff that I'm discussing with my IC. It's about deep issues in me regarding how I relate to women. If she learns about it, then it's fine too.
3. In real life, I'm doing next to nothing. I've spoken to like two girls flirtatiously in the last two months and they might not even be aware that I was flirting :P This being said, of course this discussion is about my intentions and it's true that should my flirt turn into a date and turn into sex, I would go all the way. At this rate, it seems years from now...
4. I'm not that horny! Yes, I have some desire and the idea of sex is appealing, but it doesn't keep me up at night. All I'm saying is that I have no shame for my desires and that they are part of my reflection on myself and my sitch.
The more I think about my posts and the responses, the more I think this is about different perceptions of commitment. It's not about revenge, strategy, carnal desires, etc. I need to re-read and think about it a little more. I'll be happy to read more responses if anyone else has a take on dating and sex before D. Thanks a lot.
Mozza. I completely understand. I mentioned in my thread about the girl from cooking classes. After last night I am into her, in a way, because it's nice to feel wanted after being rejected by someone you love.
Get out there, flirt, date, do something to take your mind off of things and you will be shocked how quickly your perception changes.
For instance, I would have done anything to get my wife back. And I mean anything. But at this point, after our first divorce mediation (tonight) I realized that I do not want the "new" her. I want the "old" her, but that person is long gone. And I am ok with that. Because this gal from cooking class gave my ego just enough stroke to realize that I am still somewhat desirable, that there is someone else out there for me.
Go for it!
Mozza,
This is a good discussion.
In my experience, I remained very vigilant about going off on a slippery slope. During the first several years after Ms. Wonka moved out, I was feeling very rejected and not overall positive about my value as a partner. Out of these feelings, I really felt lonely in terms of companionship. Oh ya...I wanted sex too.
To date others to fill a void from a place of neediness wasn't the way for me as I knew it would complicate things for me and for the other woman. It would not have come from a place of, "oh yeah...I am open to dating and it'll be fun!"....but rather a place of inadequacy and insecurity.
Not a great way to get back into the dating pool.
Now? I am at a place where I feel ready and confident of dating to learn more about others to see if there's a possibility for any further progression. It is a pleasant place to be.
For the longest time, I felt like a bright neon pink "L" blinked from my forehead after Ms. Wonka left. It took me a while to rebuild my own self-worth and discover my own value.
Slippery slopes are dangerous....for many reasons if one is not mindful of their own motivations.
Hey Mozza, just my 2cents on a few of these points.
1. It is not because my W cheated on me that I want to date. She cheated on me in 2009 and I turned down her offer to have a "pass" to make up for it. It's because this time she has completely walked away from the M six months ago and is now living with OM. So it's not a revenge, otherwise I would have done it long ago.
This rubbed me the wrong way, not really of what you said, but what she said. Offering you a "pass??" As...strange as that is...its a red flag to me and sort of puts things in perspective. To me it also shows that she doesn't get it. That cheating is not something that you can make up for by giving your spouse a "free hall pass to have sex." Cheating is not equated to..."well...i screwed up and bought myself a super expensive thing without asking..so...now you can go do it too and all will be better." No..I am so glad you didnt take her offer before because that would have caused even more problems for you guys..IMHO.
This being said, of course this discussion is about my intentions and it's true that should my flirt turn into a date and turn into sex, I would go all the way.
Do you really think this is the way to go? Honestly? Because if you do this...you are justifying your W's behaviors because now you too are doing what she is doing. I know you are hurt, more than anything, but whether or not this is about revenge...once you do this...you cant take it back. Now although she left you and is in the wrong, up until this point, you have done nothing wrong. Do this...and you just jumped off the cliff with her.
Flirting, ok. Wanting attention, ok. But to cheat, and I'll call it cheating because you're still married to her, imo, is crossing the line that I really don't think you want to. Supposed W wants to come back to you and come home in 6 months. Would you want her, if she changed her behaviors? Would SHE want YOU after knowing that YOU TOO did something while she was gone?
Just stuff to think about...
Here's something else that might clarify the philosophical differences in this discussion. It touches upon the argument that since I'm still married, I should be faithful.
The duration of the M after S - the wait period before D - is a regulation, a social construct decided by politicians and technocrats. They are a reflection of the consensus in a representative democracy. They are different under each jurisdictions (states, countries, landers, provinces...).
They are not a reflection of my morals or sense of commitment. You get married where you live, not where the M and D laws reflect best your personal convictions. I happened to be married in a place where a D can only occur one year after physical separation.
As I stated above, I believe that the M contract is broken once a spouse leaves the M and commits to another person - this is more than cheating. This, and not the law of the land where I live, is what defines my morals.
For some, morals can be defined by the law of the land, but as I stated several times that my role model is Gandhi, I believe that laws are made by people, often change and can be unjust. In this case, the 1-year delay does not reflect my understanding of M and D. I do not feel bound by it, nor can my morality be judged by my obedience to this arbitrary law.
Mozza,
You seem want to make an intellectual argument here...
Fine.
How does that square away with your roiling emotions about dating while still M?
Dash about "morality" and all that.
Is this the man that you want to be? Not to "become."
Mozza..so I guess why aren't you filing for D? I agree with you that the 1 year waiting period is dictated by society so if you are done and want a D then the year long wait time is just a formality...is this what you are saying? You're done and all you're waiting for now is the year?
You sound...different..somehow. Im not saying you should or should not do anything, but like Wonka said...is this who you want to be?
OK, a few responses already.
EyeTie | Thanks for your support. This being said, even I think that you're quite fast out of the gate with dating! Your S is very recent still (last month) and less extreme than mine as I recall. She doesn't live with OM and gives slight hints that she might want back, which your mediator picked up. Also, I'll come back to explain what is the issue that I'm trying to solve with dating. I've phrased it before, but I need to think about it more.
Wonka | Thanks for chipping in. I'm sorry, but I don't understand your point on the intellectual argument. I'm saying that I can freely date because I'm no longer bound by M even though I am on paper. I explained why there is still a M on paper (local regulations), but not in my life (morals). Clearer? (Your previous post just appeared, strangely, I'll reply later, I'm not ignoring it)
TLEE86 | I agree that it's a twisted understanding of M to offer a pass. That's why I didn't take it. At the same time, I was so focused on my decision that I probably didn't reflect enough on the offer itself and what it was telling me about my W. Another red flag missed. We should really have gone in counseling after that...
Supposed W wants to come back to you and come home in 6 months. Would you want her, if she changed her behaviors? Would SHE want YOU after knowing that YOU TOO did something while she was gone?
HA! I'm going to faint or have some asthma crisis should she event float the scent of a hint that she's upset I dated while she was gone. I don't even know how she could pull it off. She leaves me overnight in a smokescreen of lies, sleeps with another man, tells him words of love, commits to him, moves in with him and then, after she's done all of this, I date. Then she would say "But we were still married, how could you?" HA! No, really. No. It's not even comparable even if I do the exact same thing as her, but six months after she did it (which I don't, anyway).
One detail: When she emailed me she was with OM, one and a half month after leaving, she also asked me to let her know when I find someone (because: kids). She fully expects it and knows that she has no ground to hold it against me.
You make a very good point about whether I'm done or not, regardless of the D delays in the law. No, I'm not done. I still hope to save my M. I'll have to think about that. Just to help me think, would you say that I'd also have to avoid other women if I was D'ed and still hoped to reconcile?
Regarding the filing, she wants to be D'ed as soon as the law allows (she rushes everything she has to do) and I told her, as per DB, that I wouldn't stand in her way nor help her much. I'm not filing for her.
Alrighty! You've asked for some clarification.
Don't tell me that you weren't forewarned.
I'm saying that I can freely date because I'm no longer bound by M even though I am on paper.What do you call this if it is not an "intellectual" argument??!!!!
Reality check: you're are still a married man in the EYES of every person on the planet until the decree has been signed.
Still wanna to wiggle out of that one?
She leaves me overnight in a smokescreen of lies, sleeps with another man, tells him words of love, commits to him, moves in with him and then, after she's done all of this, I date.How does this make it different??!! Pray and tell.
Still trying to contort yourself to satisfy yourself intellectually as to pass yourself as having some kind of moral high ground here??!!
Regarding the filing, she wants to be D'ed as soon as the law allows (she rushes everything she has to do) and I told her, as per DB, that I wouldn't stand in her way nor help her much. I'm not filing for her.Ugh?! Let me try to get this straight: You want to date other women, but don't want a D. What does that make you??! A player?
Hmmmmm....am I just about right?
What kind of man do you want to be?
Let me say that this is a very useful discussion. You guys give me much food for thought and I hope that it is the same for the readership of this thread. As Tarheel said, sometimes these discussions go one way, and in this case there seems to be a strong leaning against having sex before D, regardless of the circumstances.
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I'm really trying to find the crux of the argument and not to split hair on every sub-argument. Here's another take.
Across cultures, eras and regions, there is a divide between people who believe that the law is the law and people who see wiggle room in it. This is what we have here. For some, as long as there is a piece of paper saying that I'm married, I shall abide by it, my morality and the kind of man that I am are measured by my compliance. The circumstances have no bearing.
I empathize and can sometimes share this view, but I'm of the people who don't see laws as absolute, so under certain circumstances I believe that there is a higher calling than the law. Given my W's behavior, I'm not bound by that piece of paper, which is made to last by a local law. My M was dead the day that WAW committed to OM. What I'm attempting to save (resuscitate?) now is not the piece of paper, it's the relationship.
We're never going to get out of this argument. I even believe it is ingrained in our biology, but that's for another thread.
For some, my willingness to date while married makes me a cheater with low morals. For me, under the circumstances of my sitch, it makes me a man with self-respect and a healthy attitude towards love, sex and relationships. When rejected by a woman (note: not "when cheated on"), I take stock and move on. Should she want me after all, I'd be willing to reconsider too and stop all dating activity. Again, remember that I've been faithful to her for our entire relationship, even when she cheated on me, even when she suggested that I have a pass. If I was just eager to sleep around, I would have done it earlier.
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Wonka, I'll answer your questions quickly, but I fear that it will not really be possible to come to an agreement. Let's just hope that we can come to understand each other's point of view.
1. I answered above on the perceptions of the law.
2. The difference is in the sequence. She broke the contract, I'm no longer bound by it. If you stop paying the gas because the company stopped delivering it, you're not equally guilty as them.
3. My preference is for a woman that is unavailable to me right now. Until she becomes available, I am free to date others.
4. For the kind of man, see above the paragraph on self-respect.
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All others who have contributed, especially PatientMan with his long and thoughtful post, I have not forgotten you. I need to re-read it all and think more. I'm very grateful for your contribution.
Mozza,
Ok, maybe I'm glad you moved this out of my thread
Anyway, good on you for taking the feedback as well as you have. I'm sure it's tough as this is such a polarizing topic. My only concern is a little by what PM said initially, it seems like you are justifying some of this based on what W did to you. That smells a little of revenge or resentment. I see what IC is telling you about women, but I think being up front and comfortable around women is different than pursuing sex. I know that's not what you are only taking about here, but the 'sex' word is what is causing a stir.
Like I said, i see our sitchs are very different now, and the D is just a piece of paper. What I think is getting people hung up is what are your views of marriage as a whole?
So a little story. About 10 years ago, my brother got D. They were having issues, but He cheated on his W. He came clean, admitted it and they never reconciled. Well, I remember talking about that with my W and was saying that I couldn't understand how they just decided to 'end' their marriage, especially because my niece and nephew were so young at the time. My W responded "well, he wasn't happy. It's better for them to be separated if he was unhappy" I remember that conversation because it was the first time that I saw that my views of marriage were different than my W's. We never really talked about it since then, but I see that view was part of the reason my W has done what she has done. I wonder to this day if we had opened up a conversation to really examine our views and feeling towards M could this have been avoided by her seeing my position or me understanding her's? I don't think either of us knew how we really felt until the last year or so and even then her view was confirmed prior to her leaving and mine was confirmed after I found out about OM. We really need to understand how we feel here about these things before we would move into a new R.
So, putting your current R aside for a second. Would you change your view in your next M?
Hi Mozza...I'm not sure if it is appropriate of me to ask, but when and if you date, will you be disclosing to said date that reconciliation with your wife is an option for you? just curious... I have dated that guy, and it was hard.
Mza
My concern is for you and your children.
At the moment Mza can hold his head high and say "no matter what your Mom did, I stood for M. I began to date after the D, I am a man of my word and keep my promises that I made. I am proud of that".
And
"My ex wife behaved very badly, even cheated twice, but I kept my vows for the sake of my M. I stood for me."
A few months seems a small price to pay to know this for the rest of your life.
V
Mozza,
So unhelpfully I agree with pretty much everything everyone has said. (Patientman thankyou for such a considered and thoughtful explanation of your views)
I'm wrestling with a lot of the same thoughts as you Mozza. So for me its easiest to describe the questions rather than the answers. the sort of ones that scurry about in my head include:
- What am i standing for now?
- at what point does 'standing for my marriage' just start to look delusional?
- Do I look weak?
- Does this keep me as plan B?
- Is me dating really going to make the situation any worse?
- Am i thinking of dating just out of jealousy and loneliness?
- Does it matter?
- Is not dating just keeping me stuck be cause it keeps me focused on what I've lost?
- Are there reasons other than a piece of paper to stop me dating?
- What shows self respect?
- How much more 'Opportunity cost' am i willing to sink into this no longer existant relationship
- And the classic but I know unimportant, what will my W think if and when she finds out?
But this then links to the more fundamental questions around how much headspace i'm still giving my wife (and unfortunately OM) and the whole awful situation.
So i've just said all of this and know all the complexities about legality and morality vs practicality and reality (the UK is 2 years seperation for a no fault divorce), so for me I think there is one key question to answer to know whether dating is the right option:
If you could sign all the divorce paperwork and the divorce be finalised today, would you sign it? And how would you feel about it?
How you answer this I think will tell you a lot about where you truly are on this.
MCS | Yes, it looks like this could have become a major hijack of your thread! You ask if I do this because of what my W did to me. Well, yes: because she left me and committed to an OM. Not, again and again, because she cheated on me, as I've demonstrated in 2009. I hope it's becoming somewhat clearer that I'm not trying to exact revenge; I don't even wish for her to know about my (eventual) dating.
Vanilla | Thanks, I get your point about holding my head up high. What might not be clear is that is already how I feel, even if I date before D. While we were together, I didn't cheat on her, I stood by her, fought for the M, didn't want to D. After she left me, I went on with my life and met other people. As for your previous, thoughtful post, I hope I have clarified since then that it is not because my W has cheated on me or that I need to feel a connection. It is about me.
jim0987 | I was hoping you'd contribute to the conversation because we've had some exchanged on this topic in the past. I really like your list of questions. Regarding your key question, let me ask you one in return to clarify your thoughts: If I'm D but still hoping to R, does that mean I need to remain faithful? I'm trying to understand if you (and some others) believe that I should be faithful because I am M or because I want to R, or because I want to R while M.
Interesting... I have done a tiny amount of flirting with no possibility of sex, but I feel like my self-respect started improving when I started standing up for my own needs (with STBX and others). Sex had nothing to do with it. Think this is a man-woman thing or something else?
Yes, this is a big part of it: standing for myself. This discussion focuses on the sex because it is sex (might be a red herring), but it is really more about self-respect. It is in the same line as refusing to be my WAW gay boyfriend. She's moved on and so am I. She wants back? I'm open to discuss.
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For those interested in what one can find in therapy, here's an example related to our discussion.
I perceive work as a place of abundance. Many times, I have taken chances and left jobs for short contracts and every time it has paid off. A couple of years ago, I left a six-figure job to start my own business, without even being nervous. Right now, I barely deliver to my clients, because of my sitch, but I'm not worried that it will go back up when I feel better. I'm just confident that I deliver a good service and that there will always be demand.
I perceive relationships as a place of shortages. I find it hard to convince a woman to be with me. I will freeze rather than walk up to someone and start a conversation. I am not confident in my product. I've had few relationships and they way they started didn't give me the confidence that I could meet my needs at will. It made me accept difficult circumstances for fear of having to confront my fears again, of being alone or in a worse relationship.
As a reference point, I have a close friend who's the opposite of me. He's confident around women, but he's stuck in a bad job that he doesn't have the nerve to leave. He's demoted, under the threat of transfer, overworked, etc. I would have quit this job a long time ago and he's kind of puzzled that I'm still crying over WAW.
These are the kinds of things that I discovered about myself with my IC and my readings such as NMMNG and others. Now the goal is to change my perception of relationships to a healthier one. Much like I approach a client without being tied to the outcome, I need to approach women without (or less) fear of rejection. I need to be in charge of fulfilling my needs myself, and move on when someone is unavailable, rather than cling as if this was the only potential partner. WAW is a cheeseless tunnel: the cheese has moved, let's find it.
This is why I'm open to flirting and dating. Because it is the healthy and self-respecting reaction to rejection. Again (and again): not to cheating, but to outright rejection. My take does not apply to all sitches, but to mine where my W is committed to someone else and living with him. I'm still proudly DB'ing and hope to eventually reconcile with my WAW, but this ball is in her court. Me standing at her door until she changes or mind or that some local law allows her to rip apart our M certificate is not a healthy reaction.
Mozza,
I am going to take your "arguments" in context for simplistic sake.
There are laws against stealing, right?
Your wife has stolen property.
You look at this scenario and say to yourself, "Hey, W is doing it. I might as well steal too. W has compromised herself morally by stealing...a criminal, blah blah."
Does this mean that you are emotionally okay with stealing without conscience? Does that make it okay for you to steal too?
This is the exact same point I am making about your so-called desire to "date" just because you point at W and yell...."well, she's involved with the OM. She's a bad woman for getting into an A so I shall date."
Do you see how crazy this logic is???
Again, are you wanting to "date" because you've reached a point of no return and feel completely at peace with this. I think not. It is more of "hey, I can play this game too!" This is the central point of your own motivations to date.
This is why we are all urging you to dig deep and really take a hard look at your true motivations to "date" others.
To me, you are making intellectual arguments (i.e. cultural norms, societal views, etc.) to deflect attention away from your own true motivations.
When one strips away the so-called cultural norms and other intellectual arguments, then one's left with the inner nudge that informs you that one is being out of alignment of your heart center.
Hi Mozza,
In truth i'm not that complex, Although i could probably type out a lengthy thesis on probabalistic decision making and the differences between decisions and outcomes.
I looked at that key question quite simply, if you would answer 'yes' that would sign the papers today (if you could) and be ok with that then emotionally you are much more in the position to start thinking about dating.
By answering yes what you are saying is 'I'm done with this relationship' thats not saying you're permanently closing the door on any relationship with your wife but it does massively increase the chances of future relationships not being with her (and by consequence reduces the probability that it will be).
But equally by saying yes you have to ask so why arent you proceeding with the divorce? again is the answer anything other than because of legal technacalities about timing and/or fault?
I suppose i think there are 4 elements to the divorce, Practical, Emotional, Legal and Moral and its about checking against each one of these to see where you are and making sure that you're ok with your choices. Its a safe bet that in yours (and mine) your wife would say she is divorced in 3 out of 4 of these.
As wonka has said, your still legally married and so if you do start dating it makes you an adulterer (in the eyes of the law) irrespective of what she has or hasnt done.
Because it is the healthy and self-respecting reaction to ..........outright rejection. My take does not apply to all sitches, but to mine where my W is committed to someone else and living with him. I'm still proudly DB'ing and hope to eventually reconcile with my WAW , but this ball is in her court. Me standing at her door until she changes her mind or that some local law allows her to rip apart our M certificate is not a healthy reaction.
So i feel like this paragraph is key and I can honestly say I recognise a lot of the sentiment and agree wholeheartedly with the last sentence.
The bit I've bolded is where I see the conflict because this makes me think that you wouldnt sign the papers and if you wouldnt then as well as legally, emotionally you're still married.
It is interesting the different reaction people get on here about this sort of thing though.
Me standing at her door until she changes or mind or that some local law allows her to rip apart our M certificate is not a healthy reaction.
Agreed.
What I
disagree with is this:
flirting and dating...is the healthy and self-respecting reaction to rejection.
Where did you get that idea?
Respecting yourself isn't forcing yourself to date, it's allowing time for you to grieve, process, and heal before you jump back out there.
-PM
I read this one yesterday ... thought about replying but did'nt ... gave it some thought and came into work and the page was still up on my computer so I figured ... why not.
I do think you are in a tough spot as most the people here are of the mindset to "save the marriage" by saving ourselves first.
So I have been in my sitch for some time .. what .. 1.5 years now that we have been separated. W and I have not had sex 3 years up to that point. Lets say a good 3-5 years of a problem filled marriage. I think one of the lessons I have learned is that when you focus on one thing it becomes larger and has the ability to consume you. A few years ago I was convinced that the lack of sex was the issue in my M, well to be honest after reading and looking at myself in the mirror the sex was a result of a troubled marriage not the cause. And I am happy to report that I am still alive and well after that spell of no sex, contrary to some beliefs you can live... albeit frustrating, but its not a life threatening issue.
As far as dating while you are legally married ... I am still legally married, W left back in Nov13 and sure .. I thought about dating .. she had her OM "why not me" type of thing. I was still attempting to save the M so I held true for a long time. The D thing started rolling its wheels in my direction so a about a month ago I figured ... why not, I went out on a date with a girl I had been talking to for a couple weeks. She new my sitch, everything was out in the open .. not concealed.
We meet up, had a great time ... really did. That being said on the drive home I realized quickly, not what I want, not who I am, not who I want to be, most importantly I am no where near ready to open up and share myself emotionally. It just did not feel 'right' even though it was fun to go out and GAL. This girl asked me "Would you ever get married again?" I was not ready to even attempt an answer nor think about that question. I have been in a R with my W for 24 years, married 14. I am not sure how long it takes but I do know that for me, it was not fair to this girl I went out with (she was ready, looking to move on and into a serious R) ... I am not ready to just jump into another R when my M is still all be it on paper, legit and who knows what may come of it.
As far as dating and flirting pumping up an ego ... not so much. The ego and confidence I think stems from within .. just as we have found out that one can never make the WAS happy ... nor can an outside influence truly make us happy, that comes from within. Flirt and wink all ya want ... push comes to shove the confidence is not there nothing else matters. Date when you are ready .. not just to one up your WAS ... that R will not last. If revenge is truly your motivation I dont think it takes much to see that will not be setting a great foundation.
My opinion, at this time in the game, at our age (anything mid 30's and on) we all have some baggage. With what a LBS has gone through, serious baggage that must be dealt with or the next R when and if that happens is going to be set up to fail. A wounded bird can not just jump out of the nest ... heal, mend, regain confidence and then when its time, fly.
I'm worried I'll NEVER feel like dating again. LOL
Let's take a break from the flirting/dating/sex discussion. We'll get back to it.
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There's been a couple of fantastic posts today and I'd like to mention them here.
First, there's sandi2 that's killing it as usual on the wayward wife. She writes about not letting the WW back too easily, but what struck me was a
paragraph about being firm and detached with the WW.
Let me lump you and any other LBH'S together when I say you need to stop with the antics. They don't work, and you can make matters much worse. Which, considering she's in an A, moved away with the kids, and has the upper hand.......seems questionable, right? It's true, though, you can be your own worst enemy. The LBH can louse things up by trying all kinds of gimmicks to get her back. Ironically, it is when he drops all of that stuff and leaves her alone that works better than anything. Just stop trying to get her back, b/c it is causing you to do bad things.
Use the time you are leaving her alone to turn yourself into an attractive, confident man who doesn't have to beg someone to love him. Grow as person and build a new life. If the two of you get back together some day, you can introduce her to your new friends and interesting activities. Please don't let your eyes just skim over these words. It is said so much here on the board until I wonder if men tune it out. They are looking for something quicker and easier. Drop the rope you have around her, change yourself, and get a life.
After only a few months on these boards, I'm already peeved at the newcomers who break this rule constantly weeks after learning them, even knowing that it harms their sitches. I'm not surprised that sandi2 is getting a little irritated of spending so much time repeating it. Guys: get a grip, your chances depend on it. I'm a major wet noodle (I still cry every day), but I never ever act it out in front of my W. DB or don't, there is no try.
Second, we've got more good news from T0324, who's now in piecing after her H filed for D and had an OW. T0324 had pretty low moments, was very upset, ready to give up, etc. He post builds on what she heard from her H since then to give a look behind the scene. It turns out that she had misinterpreted many things, which is a reminder to avoid mindreading. This
paragraph spoke to me because of my sitch.
When I found out about OW I had already gone pretty dark (well to me). Through the course of the months during his OW time - H initiated communication. I hardly did unless it was kid, bill or house related. I was pretty curt and short with him overall. H could never look at me or be in person with me. The couple times we went to dinner (before I knew of OW) he acted very friendly and chatty. Once I found out about OW I didn't mention Her. As much as I wanted to she wasn't worth it. I didn't want them to know they had the satisfaction of my response (hence her 12000 Instagram and FB photos of them with childish quotes)
I do the same with WAW, cutting all communications to a minimum and being rather curt (today it took me 3 words to set up the phone call on D6's birthday). What's interesting is that T0324 ended up meeting her H regularly a few months into the sitch, when things were going sour with the OW, and she gave him an eye full. It all went according to BD: she was detached and he was puzzled, she was consistent and he was eventually convinced, the A played out and the timing was right, etc.
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PMA report | I feel like a brick house that's burned. The fire is almost over, the walls are still up, but it's desolate inside. The crisis is behind me and I've gotten used to my situation, but I don't have my energy and motivation back up, except in certain social settings. I'm numb, a bit sad, but far from panicked as I was months ago. I'm happy about this. It seems like a step towards a better place.
Detachment report | I'm doing good this week. I'm rather detached from WAW. I simply don't want to hear about or from her. I don't care much about OM or any activity she's doing. I'm not really jealous of any of it. I think of some boring or annoying moments with WAW and it doesn't feel so bad that she's not around right now. I try not to wonder if I want her back, under what conditions, etc. I try to think as little as possible about her. My conversations about my sitch are much more about me now. One thing that helps is that I've almost nothing to chew on when it comes to WAW: we have no contacts and I've cut almost every social media. There isn't much I can think of or discuss because I just don't know anything. She's turning into a concept, an idea almost. It's a good thing.
GAL report | I had a great evening Thursday with a close friend. I cooked him a good adult meal (dry aged sirloin, blue cheese, Brussels sprouts - mmmm), we drank and then we went out to a bar with a ping pong table. Really fun. He's the friend with the same issue as me, but with work rather than women (perception of scarcity). We talked about it. Wednesday, I played badminton. I continue my 7-minute workout but strangely I skipped many days this week, while I had been very consistent for 5 months. During the day, my work productivity is next to nil. Sometimes, I wish I had a 9 to 5 job with colleagues to force me to get things done.
Flirting report | No action to report, only reading. "Models" by Mark Manson is more educating that I had anticipated. It's about attracting new women, but it's full of fantastic insights on attraction between WAW and LBH. In fact, I plan to quote some paragraphs here and I'll soon start referring the book to LBH who don't seem to get why being needy with their WAW is repulsive. I think it can be as useful as NMMNG.
Mozza-
I am going to read up on your sitch but I just wanted to say I think an important thing for people to realize is that an A has to run its course. We so badly want to break it up or do things to stop it but a lot of the times if you act out it brings them
Closer together. I made sure all my family and H's family knew about it ... But not directly from me (didn't want H knowing I cared enough).
When things go sour - you have to be the better choice, the person your H or W fell in love with from the beginning.
Thanks a lot for stopping by, T0324. It's really kind of you to wander around these boards now that you're in piecing. I look forward, if ever, to having the kind of behind-the-scene information that your H is giving you.
I completely agree with you that the A has to run its course and that anything that we do to hurt it will actually feed it. It's Romeo and Juliet, the impossible love. Them against the world, the misunderstood couple. I want to send the signal to WAW that I think this OM and the R are uninteresting. I haven't mentioned it once in six months. The parallel that I see with your sitch is that OM is 5 years younger than WAW (29 vs 34). Not quite 19, but definitely less mature than her (and me) and thrown in with two kids, an ex-H (me), issues of depression and anxiety that weren't there when they fell in love, etc.
You've been lucky with timing and basketball in your case. MWD does mention in DR that timing can play a big part. In my case, it still seems better to sit out for a while and work on myself. WAW is pumping the kids about their trip to the beach in OM's hometown in July, so she sees at least as far as this (plane tix are bought). I don't know the future anyway, so I don't really think about timing at the moment.
I wouldn't too much about timing.. Plans can change
My H in June was telling his family he and his new girlfriend were coming up to visit them in August. Tickets were purchased.... We all know that trip didn't happen. Not saying your W won't make the trip but anything is possible. Try not to worry too much (easier said than done I know). I found that looking at shorter time frames helped.
I also know everyone is against this - but I think what helped me detach was the attention from another man. I know it goes against DB. However, for me, it was knowing someone successful, intelligent and funny was interested me. H had made me feel like dirt and my confidence took a beating. So seeing that someone could be interested in me helped. We hung out outside of work once and it was around the time right before H wanted to R. I quickly cut it off and this guy still is peeved about it. Now I am not advocating for dating because you are still married. Just the whole flirting, feeling desired, etc can really boost PMA and detachment IMO.
Also, you really should start counting OM from when they moved in together. Let them live the life of responsibility and not fantasy. H lived with his boss at the time on his couch and OW was the boss's daughter. Apparently she moved in there shortly after which only sped up the demise of the A
Hi Mozza,
Just want to say that you sound much stronger and confident then ever. I get all this about dating and flirting.
Sometimes it is not about the WAS but it is some kind of feeling I am attractive, alive. I have been playing "virtual affair" if I may, with RD in this board and sometimes it is not my H in my mind but I smile thinking about the silly stuff RD and I write to each other and all the other folks tease about it.
It's fun, makes you relax, makes you smile and feels good to be alive. It's just a play but makes some moments free of the H pain.
I think that as long I am not hurting anyone, the flirting and dating is pretty natural. Besides, the universe works in strange ways and we never know if the real love of your life will be the next one.
It's nice to see you are having better moments. We all know how hard it is to deal with our sitchs. I found I am having a great deal of pain because rejection. Sometimes I even wonder if I still love my H as much as I think or if the rejection contaminated my soul.
I am totally and example of what does not work, I do not beg, don't cry much, but when my H comes crying and saying how much he loves me, I give in. End up kissing, hugging and in bed with him every time.
I am strong, he comes in many pieces, he gets a lot of love and caring, he leaves very strong, I stay again in many pieces.
Now, I made a big flyer with Sandi's words on it and put it in my big mirror, so every day right in the morning I remind myself that I need to detach, and do it for real.
You are doing it Mozza, and I hope you can gather all the strength to keep a steady journey of making yourself a better person. I believe you are heading on the right direction.
Take care,
Pink
T0324 | Thanks a lot. You've obviously caught up on my sitch and I much appreciate it. Thanks for your input on the dating thing. It seems that several people receive a confidence boost from it. I'm willing to go down this road and see what happens.
OM moved in officially on January 1. But since mid-October, the kids would tell me that he was there four to seven days a week, even in the morning. I completely agree that living together takes the thrill out of a relationship. I've experienced it (I remember strong arguments with WW just a couple of weeks after we moved in, 10 years ago) and I've read relationship advice that mention it as a passion killer. In one, a woman says that she made love with her second H every time they saw each other for the first five years, to which he replies that they didn't live together at the time. In fact, it tells me that my W still doesn't think that our M went down because of the "indignities of life" (it's from David Foster Wallace and I think it nails it) but because of our fundamental incompatibility. I'm glad she gets to test that assumption.
It's interesting to know that your H's trip was canceled even after the plane tickets were bought. I admit that it's not really a scenario that I consider, especially because it's a wedding in OM's family (so he's going) and it will be WAW semi-annual visit to her parents (so she's going). Anyway, we'll see.
Pink17 | What a warm message. Thank you so much for your kind words. You are right that I feel stronger; I'm in a good place these days. I'm glad that it radiates here. It probably does in real life too. Like you, I'm affected by my encounters with WW, so it feels good to cut her out.
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GAL Report | It was D7's birthday weekend! I'm so proud of all that we've done. We went to my parents twice, which is heaven on earth for D7. We went to see D7's godparents and D3's godparents in another city too. We went to a pool and D7 jumped from a spring board for the first time (and I jumped from the 3 meter one and it was terrifying!). We stopped to a huge toy store and gave them a small budget to buy whatever they wanted. I gave D7 really nice gifts and she was excited.
PMA Report | I welled up once or twice this weekend, but didn't really cry, evidence of how GALing really does help. The sitch was on my mind, but Saturday for instance, it wasn't discussed until the kids were in bed. I can definitely focus on other stuff and enjoy the moment.
Detachment report | Drum roll please.... I've unfollowed WW on Instagram! So far, I've hidden her posts on Facebook and unsubscribed from her blog, and this was the last big step that I couldn't take earlier because her account is protected, meaning I can't snoop anymore. Well, I don't want to any longer. I really don't want to know that she's up to. The last thing I saw was a picture of four plus toys (carrot characters) with two parents and two kids, taken on her sofa. She's playing family with OM. I don't need to know this. Flushed. Yay!
Mozza-
I'm not saying I advocate for dating per se
However - flirting, forming new friendships with the other sex while being open and honest with them that you are A still married and B have no intention of dating.
I did tell the guy from work both things. I also told him that. I knew i wasn't ready (because he did ask) because I couldn't say I wouldnt take H back and that it was unfair to him or whomever was interested in me
To pursue a R while not being fully commited to a future vs taking my H back.
IMO the dating will become a tough thing for me when I'm in your stage, to make a decision if I go that path or not, especially if LS takes place. I already miss the feeling of being appreciated and loved big time.
Flirting makes you feel better for sure but it's a personal thing if you still want to "wait" this out and value your vows. But don't forget about yourself, you also deserve to move on with your life. Of course you have to be honest not only to the people you are with, but with yourself.
I think it's a highly personal question that can't be answered by anyone else but yourself if you are ready for dating or not.
T0324 | Sorry, I didn't mean to misrepresent your take on flirting. I understand that you wouldn't take it as far as dating. I was referring more to my own perspective on it. It's interesting that the guy got interested really fast and took offense when your reconciled. My guess is that he's a Nice Guy who doesn't see many opportunities with women like you!
Complex | Thanks for your support. It seem like everyone is in agreement that it is a highly personal decision.
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I had a passing thought while packing my groceries at the store: even this packing can be a subject of mild tension in a couple, in the rush of getting things done. It made me realize that our WAS have to deal with a new R while we don't. Yes yes, it must be great at times, especially in the beginning, but very early they'll have small irritants like these and even if they try to ignore them, it'll be at the back of their mind until it comes to to front and is voiced. It might be uncomfortable, knowing that you just left a "terrible" R to get into this "perfect" one and then see these issues creep up and grow, one by one. I guess my point is that we shouldn't overlook the advantages of not being in an R!
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I was reflecting on my DB'ing and what I'm not doing so well. I'm not sure I'm doing enough to turn into a man only a fool would leave. Let's recap.
Appearance: I take better care of my body and stepped up my grooming (cream and gel galore!). I do the 7-minute work out very regularly and my body has improved as a result. I'm toner than I was (and leaner, but my BMI is already at 20 so...). I bought some more clothes, remaining stylish (humble brag: a few years ago, I won the prize for "best dressed man" in my department!) and improving a little, as with any new clothes. My style hasn't changed though. Oh, I have a new haircut too, called "neat neglect" by my hairdresser. It involves gel, which is new for me. I've pulled the cologne from the back of the bottom drawer too. I've had more compliments on my appearance since S, so maybe it shows. I guess I'm doing fine on this front, even though I would have liked some kind of makeover like you see on TV.
Self-awareness: This is a biggie. I lump in there my work with the IC and my readings such as NMMNG and DR. I was imagining a conversation with WW where she'd ask me to summarize what I've learnt and I couldn't come up with it. It's just spread over my entire personality. It seems like I won't know if I truly changed until I am in a new R when the new me is put to the test. What I can say is that I've started asking myself important questions: Who am I and what do I really want? How do I feel and why do I react a certain way? According to my readings and my IC, this is all there is to it: I'll ask these questions for the rest of my life and will never have definitive answers. Many people, even those who have a crisis like ours, never get there.
GAL: This covers everything I'm supposed to keep myself busy and grow (25yearsmlc and Vanilla are champions at this). This is probably my weakest point. I've learn to cook a few more things, but I can't think of anything else. I've not started a language course, joined a volunteer group or a music band, I've not traveled to new places (it's coming for Easter) nor have I made new friends (I already had plenty though, never been a loner). Sure, I went to a museum, discovered a few more restaurants and bars, but that doesn't sound like terrific assets. I just don't have the will or energy to commit to anything. Gotta work on this.
Any category I overlooked?
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Work report | I guess I should start a section on this topic because it is where I struggle the most. Today, I probably put 90 minutes to work (I freelance) and that includes some 60 minutes to solve a computer problem. This problem threw me off track this morning and sent me around the house and in my bed for some six hour instead of working. Ouch. It must be a struggle to go through a 9 to 5 job right after BD but I envy the discipline it brings. I was passed for a contract today that would have kept me busy for the next month and a half but I'm not too concerned because it was not really what I do. Still, it would have been a good income.
PMA Report | If I make it through the shower and all the way to my bed tonight, it will be three days in a row without crying, which is astonishing knowing that I had a total of two such days in the previous six months. In recent weeks, the crying was more random and less heartfelt though. My past experience tells me that such highs are usually follows by lows, but also that the overall trend is positive.
Way to go, Mozza.
This is an incredibly uplifting post, from a variety of viewpoints. I really loved reading your thoughts on self care. It's the answer to pretty much everything.
Keep up the good work!
Betsey
Cheers
Mozza, you've come such a long way in your journey here and have great insights and post many helpful things to others.
I'm surprised at your thinking dating would be a good thing at this point in your life.
Besides the ego boost, and I'm not discounting the the allure of that, how do you think dating will be helpful?
Will you be telling your dates that you're still in love with your W and would like to reconcile your marriage? (if that's true for you)
What if the date begins to have more than casual feelings for you?
Are you really available for beginning a new R?
So I see you've discussed this topic ad nauseum.
Best of luck with whatever your decision.
But this I know for sure, if you don't have self worth from the inside, ain't nobody gonna give it to you.