Life 2.0 Pt 6 - DivorceBusting.com

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http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2535484#Post2535484

Last post for continuity...credit to Train

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I don't know about men, but I think a WW will hear the same words from the H and it turns her off. He sounds fake. He has motives, etc., (which AP certainly did.....but that was different, right?) Until she gets OM out of her system, the H could easily see this as a no-win situation for him. My H has always been very complimentary, but it just did not have the same effect as when it came from a stranger. That's so sad! It sounds sick, and I guess it is. In the beginning of the A, everything is new and fresh. I think there other psychological effects at work.

I absolutely could not agree more. It's those freakin' brain-chemicals (PEA, dopamine, etc.) associated with As, which are addictions. And addictions, as we know, are serious, scary business.

Wonka once told me: "Be the OW to the OW." I thought that was a perfect way to look at it. I know that's easier for women than it is for men who are trying to re-attract their female spouses. I don't envy y'all; it must feel like all-out mental warfare to try to crack the code that is a woman. LOL! (Sorry, I shouldn't laugh ...)

Be proactive, but have patience. I really do think you're on the right track ... mainly because, hey, she's still there! That's a good sign, right? wink

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And yes, you women are freaking enigmas

No argument there.

I think your W has this attitude of sitting back and finding everything that isn't working, while saying, "Okay, if you think you can change mymind, then you prove otherwise". Then you try to point out various times things took place, and she shruggs it off b/c she didn't have the same feelings.

If you are making headway with not having R talks so much, then I suggest you up the challenge by not trying to convince your W that things are working out. I mean, if her mind is set, why is it your job to make her think differently to how she determines her own thought pattern? Encouragement is one thing, but after a time it seems more like trying to control what one thinks. So, fire yourself from that job. It may be hard for you to see, but it really is pointless to keep this up.

Hasn't this very issue of you trying to change her viewpoint led to heated arguments? I think you need to be the one to shrugg off her negative statements about the MR. Let it go, and let her think however she wants. She's going to, anyway.

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Wonka once told me: "Be the OW to the OW." I thought that was a perfect way to look at it. I know that's easier for women than it is for men who are trying to re-attract their female spouses

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I agree. I haven't made this statement before, mainly b/c I don't how to explain it. However, I am going to say it now. I believe it is probably easier for the woman to reattract the man than for him to reattract her, b/c of the differences in their make-up.

Originally Posted By: sandi2

No argument there.

I think your W has this attitude of sitting back and finding everything that isn't working, while saying, "Okay, if you think you can change mymind, then you prove otherwise". Then you try to point out various times things took place, and she shruggs it off b/c she didn't have the same feelings.

If you are making headway with not having R talks so much, then I suggest you up the challenge by not trying to convince your W that things are working out. I mean, if her mind is set, why is it your job to make her think differently to how she determines her own thought pattern? Encouragement is one thing, but after a time it seems more like trying to control what one thinks. So, fire yourself from that job. It may be hard for you to see, but it really is pointless to keep this up.

Hasn't this very issue of you trying to change her viewpoint led to heated arguments? I think you need to be the one to shrugg off her negative statements about the MR. Let it go, and let her think however she wants. She's going to, anyway.

I think you're right. She'll even admit in her more lucid moments that she's probably allowing the bad times in our M to cloud her memory of the good times.

We haven't been having R talks this week. Maybe we did last weekend, I can't remember. She stills spends too much time in our room on FB in my opinion, but posting photographs is one of her creative outlets (she's a really good photographer), so if it keeps her happy (or at least sane), who am I to criticize? I could tell she was distracted last night, but I know better than to ask how she's feeling. We talked about a few non-R things, and she seemed to brighten up a bit. Seems to me like not having R talks is taking some pressure off of her.

Her rhetoric is more about feeling lost and disconnected, rather than having intense feelings towards anyone else. She says (and demonstrates) that she's largely past any anger she felt for me earlier in our sitch. I've been trying to walk the line between not trying to point out that things are better than they appear (I agree this isn't effective) and sounding glib or dismissive. She did start to talk on the phone yesterday about feeling anxious, for no particular reason, about our situation. My statements to her were along the lines of "this situation will not last forever", "we will figure things out", and "our relationship will be what it needs to be".

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Wonka once told me: "Be the OW to the OW." I thought that was a perfect way to look at it. I know that's easier for women than it is for men who are trying to re-attract their female spouses

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I agree. I haven't made this statement before, mainly b/c I don't how to explain it. However, I am going to say it now. I believe it is probably easier for the woman to reattract the man than for him to reattract her, b/c of the differences in their make-up.

No doubt about that. Even though my W has not been acting very attractively lately, she knows it wouldn't take a heck of a lot of effort to get my attention, though I don't tell her that. Me making that emotional connection with her, that's a little tougher.

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No doubt about that. Even though my W has not been acting very attractively lately, she knows it wouldn't take a heck of a lot of effort to get my attention, though don't tell her that. Me making that emotional connection with her, that's a little tougher.

I doubt she is concerned about attracting you back to her. She knows she's got that.

In fact, I have not heard of a case where the WAS was trying to attract their LBS. It has always been left to the LBS to take care of that dept. The WAS lost attraction for the LBS before their heart left the M. And how many newcomers (mostly men) talk about how they are drawn to their beautiful S?

Her feelings of lost and disconnected has a lot to do with the withdrawal depression she's experiencing. I think she wanted you to fix it, and when you couldn't you became a target for her frustration. It's hard to be a willing candidate to work on a MR when you have zero motivation and feel terrible. This is something she will have to work through herself. Is she on any anti-depressants?

She is, and has been for a while. And that was one thing I remembered yesterday when she was talking about feeling anxious for no particular reason...her prescription had run out a few days before and she had forgotten to fill it.

The lost and disconnected feeling is very much a depression symptom. She talks about feeling disconnected not only from me, but from her friends.

Her doctor may have to try a different type. I even experienced panic attacks and had never had that sort of problem in the past. I thought I was losing it for sure. I would get where I couldn't breathe and wanted to take off running. It's scary.

That's a possibility. We'll see how things go once she gets back on her medication tomorrow. She's actually almost her old self tonight

Journaling a bit. No new developments.

She's still down a bit, but not like she was. She wrenched a muscle or something in her torso so she's some pain. Nothing that painkillers and rest won't cure, though. She still spends most of her time lying in bed and posting on Facebook. Seems like there's one new physical pain after another. I'm sure her emotional stress is taking a physical toll as well. That and her obsessive exercise. She's always been pretty serious about her workouts, but more so during our sitch. Not really surprising. I don't think she's giving herself enough time to rest and heal. She tends to run herself into the ground with exercise. That's not new, she's always been that way. What good is it to have a nice body if you're in too much pain to do anything?

It's a strange dichotomy. I'm up. I feel the best I've felt in a long time. I have new drive at work, I'm exercising more (training for a marathon relay), I'm starting to build my side business. I have a direction for the first time in a really long time. I'm applying all this energy towards remaking life the way I want it. If there's anything good about my sitch, is that it finally got me off my butt. I'm incredulous at how complacent and lazy I got.

I try to share that with her, and she doesn't even hear it. That, or she gets resentful that I actually feel good about something. I ask her what she wants out of life. What are her goals and dreams? All she says is she wants to feel "connected" to someone. It's like she'll only feel complete if she has a fulfilling relationship.

That's not the strong, ambitious, independent woman I married. I'm not angry with her anymore, I feel sorry for her more than anything.

I don't even know how to talk to her anymore. I'm not pushing R talks; far from it. We haven't had one since last weekend. I'm just trying to figure out how to connect with her, to communicate with her in some way that's not just about our M.

For the time being I'll just sit back, do life the best way I can, and wait for her to want to talk. Be the best guy I can be, take the pressure off of her.

I'll try to take her out and do something this weekend, if she's feeling up to it.

We've gone almost a whole week without a major R talk. We were both afraid that not talking was somehow sweeping things under the rug....but it's really taken down the stress level in our house.

The therapist was much more clear and direct today about how our constant discussions of our R and her A were probably making things more intense. She didn't talk about PEA today, but did talk about how her emotional connection to OM was actively blocking her from reconnecting with me.

Rzr,

I like the C and how she's presenting the A to your W. Gosh...it will take some time before W gets the XOM out of her system. If I recall correctly, Sandi took about 7 months or so to get her own XOM out of her system.

Hi Wonka, long time no see.

I was surprised at how much it helped not to talk about our R all the time. I was afraid that we would be sweeping things under the rug. But no, it's done a lot for both of our stress levels. We're trying to keep our R talks confined to MC now and I think it's helping. W even said that it was a good session. I was starting to get a little frustrated with the C, but she was much more clear and direct this week. That and the fact that W and I actually allowed each other to talk instead of using our session to argue might have helped just a bit :-)

W said in MC this week that she didn't feel like she had been in love with OM as much as she was in love with the validation he provided. Her rhetoric lately has been more about trying to figure things out in her mind and improving herself. May just be talk at this point but she's always been an "emotions on her sleeve" type of person.

Unfortunately OM comes to town next week. She hasn't said a word to me. I'm not going to say anything either; I want to see what happens.

As an addendum, the C said something interesting in session this week. W was expressing frustration at how long it was taking to get OM out of her system. The C said that relationships and the feelings they spawn are either being fed or starved. If they are not being fed, then they wither. Unfortunately that's what we allowed to happen to our M. We're trying to feed it now and hopefully resuscitate it. On the flip side, it was also working that way for my W and OM. The longer they go without communicating, feeding that R, then it'll eventually wither and die. I knew this, just never heard it put that way.

That is very true.

See, in descending order, there are:

- full-blown PA/EA

- contact

- ruminating/fantasizing

Even the last one will hold her back. If the formerly wayward spouse doesn't commit to full NC and transparency, and do her part to AS BEST SHE CAN not intentionally ruminate about her former affair partner (say, by stalking him on Facebook, or keeping old gifts he gave her, or re-reading old text messages and emails, etc.) . . . it's going to take her a lot, LOT longer to become open again emotionally to her husband, if ever.

I don't know which of these, if any, she might be doing, Rzr. But at a minimum she seems to be holding onto him in her mind and heart.

Starsky

If she's doing anything, it's ruminating (even the C used that word). She has looked him up on Facebook (although not in the last few days), but has not kept old texts, emails (there were never any to my knowledge), etc.

Rzr,

Originally Posted By: Rzrback

I was surprised at how much it helped not to talk about our R all the time. I was afraid that we would be sweeping things under the rug. But no, it's done a lot for both of our stress levels.

Are you that surprised given how it all went downhill after each R talk? Even at nighttime when those talks were at it's worst?

Talking about the R just makes you all focus on the bad parts...that entails W focusing on the negatives which puts you on the defensive. Not very productive or solution-oriented, right?

I think it would be best to use the time out of MC to work on reconnecting. I'd suggest that you find ways to inject humor for laughter is the best bonding chemical between spouses. Tell a joke or engage in a friendly banter.

Even a simple joking comment-- "I'm such a class act" if you fumble over some project or household chore...

(FYI, Ms. Wonka and I spoke on the phone last Friday afternoon...one of our rare phone calls. I make a joke to her and Ms. Wonka laughed as she was visibly a bit nervous. Humor...beats everything else, right?)

You get the idea.

I think your W has given you a very important clue about getting validation from the XOM. Are you able to do this? Can you?!

One of the former moderators, JamesJohn (the BEST one ever), relayed to me how he was able to rebuild the connection with his W in the sense that he was the only one who knew her interests, hobbies, etc. He told me one story of how he and his wife enjoyed attending some antique shops. Then he went and bought his wife a particular book that he knew his W would enjoy. Those things are what husbands and wives know about each other after being in a long-term marriage.

My point is to really think back to a time when you and W were in tune with each other during happier times. What things makes W tick? What makes W giddy?

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She didn't talk about PEA today, but did talk about how her emotional connection to OM was actively blocking her from reconnecting with me.

Absolutely!

I think your W and I can relate in our experiences. And remember, I was coming here every single night until I would nearly drop.......and then go to bed and think about all the "what ifs" until I finally fell asleep. I hate to think what it would have been like if I had not received help from the board. She is getting help from the C, although it's not a daily feed.

That part was the last battle of the war for me, so to speak. Overcoming those thoughts that seem to intrude the brain takes some determination. Truthfully, I didn't put up much of a resistance at first, until I realized I would never have peace nor hope for my M as long as I was dreaming about OM.

She is so right when she says it was about how the OM made her feel. Those ego shots felt great, and that's part of the addiction. If he had not made her feel so special, why would she have even been interested? Just as you did the same thing when you met her and wanted to date her, right? If you had first started out by smothering her and talking about what kind of R the two of you could have if she would work with you, she would have taken off running. First, she had to feel attracted to you. And admit it, you know you did all you could to help it along.

The difference between your W and my situation was that there was no more contact once my EA ended. I sure hope she is able to stay the course when he comes to town next week. It will be difficult for both of you, I'm sure. You've got your team here pulling for you two.

We stayed in the R talk pattern as long as we did because we're both fixers...to both of us, not talking was ignoring and letting things fester. It both took us a long time (as you're well aware) to realize that we were a) beating dead horses and b) making ourselves feel worse than we did before.

Not feeling the need for R talks has also brought us out of the bedroom and into the main part of the house. More life, more interaction with the kids. She's engaging in her creative pursuits more and more (photography).

When W told her best friend about OM, his question to her was "what is missing in your marriage that he's giving to you?" Her answer was, "He's in a good mood." That goes back to my old moodiness; my inability to laugh at myself. Now I keep things upbeat in the house. If there's something funny that happens to me in life, I make sure to share it with her. If I screw something up, I make a joke about it. When one of our favorite sitcoms is on, I make sure it's playing. She exaggerates my lack of humor before, but it's not a totally out there criticism.

We're both big movie buffs, so we have a whole repertoire together of movie lines that fits our life situations. I'll trot out some of our favorite lines on occasion. It's one of the things that tends to bind us.

One nut I'm having a hard time cracking is sexuality. While I still am certain that they did not have sex, OM awakened her sexually during a time that she didn't feel that with me. He validated her as a woman. I compliment her, I openly admire her when she's naked, or getting dressed, I give her affection....but she still will not have sex (for the record I am not initiating, to keep the pressure off). She just says it makes her very uncomfortable. He turned her on spontaneously and naturally, in a way I apparently haven't in a long time. Her biggest issue with our relationship is her inability to feel that sexual chemistry with me. If she could feel that again, that would be a huge win. Emotional intimacy is a prerequisite for physical intimacy, at least with her, so I've been concentrating on that instead.

Rzr,

You are so wise to stay focused on re-building an emotional connection with W and keeping the pressure off sexually. At the same time - wow - it occurs to me that you really deserve a big pat on the back for your strength and dedication to your W and M. How fortunate your W is to have a H willing to go without HIS needs being met for the greater good of the M!

Good on you, Rzr. I have to believe it's only a matter of time before W sees for herself that she has quite the catch. And she's had him right there with her all along.

As for feeling like you two are sweeping things under the rug when you don't talk about the R vs. being high-stress when you DO speak about it? Oh, man. Can I ever empathize!! I/We had the SAME dilemma in the first several months after H came home. I won't harp on it because it seems you're already seeing your own solution. And it sounds like W might see it, too.

Nothing more to add to all the great perspectives you're getting. Just wanted to pop by and say: Kudos to you! Keep rollin'!!

Thanks for the encouragement, Train. Stepping away from constant R talks is probably the best move we've made in a while (I give my W a lot of credit here too). Wish I would have done that sooner, as I was advised to do by Starsky, Wonka, et. al.

Don't pat me on the back too hard; I've seriously considered going out "hunting" on more than one occasion. It's one of the cruel ironies of life that women seem to come out of the woodwork during times like these. That's OK. However this sitch turns out I want to be able to say I did it right. My needs won't go wanting forever

Been trying to post to other's threads. It's time I gave more back, considering how much help I've gotten here. It's also helpful to me to read other's sitches. I'm in very good shape in my sitch compared to many others. Perspective helps.

Still driving on; we're getting along OK, of course I can still feel that big hole where true warmth and affection used to reside.

Last night she stayed at the hotel where she works; that's not unusual when the roads are icy. It actually crossed my mind to check to see if OM was in town early. He's not in until next week. I hate that I even had to think about it. I know she behaved herself; I ended up spending part of the evening with her and then brought D10 to spend the night, since school was cancelled today.

I'm getting nervous about OM coming into town. She hasn't told me that he's coming in yet. I won't say anything to her until after he leaves.

I'm trying to be very patient, but it really bothers me that she has shown little to no remorse for her A, limited as it was. As she said during MC "nobody knows what I've been through" (meaning what I've done to her) and "guilt is wasted energy"

Geez

Hello Rzr, I am poking around, reading and learning. It sounds like you are handling your sitch as well as possible. I hope your W has turned the corner and will resist OM when he is in town.

Rzr,

Originally Posted By: Rzrback

I'm trying to be very patient, but it really bothers me that she has shown little to no remorse for her A, limited as it was. As she said during MC "nobody knows what I've been through" (meaning what I've done to her) and "guilt is wasted energy"

Geez

I do not think W is quite at that level yet as she is still working through her internal unhappiness and figuring out the "why's." In a way, I do sense that W is deflecting some of the guilt away from her. Give this process some time.

Yeah yeah yeah, patience! How long will that take?!

Thanks, Wonka, I just have to remind myself that she's on a journey too. I see more of my old W all the time, just in bits and pieces.

A brief synopsis of my weekend:

W calls me out of the blue Friday morning, just to chat about a link she sent me about dogs (our dogs are definitely a common interest for us). We ended up having a nice conversation via voice and then text. Nothing deep. It's just been a long time since she called me just because she wanted to. I went about my day.

Came home from work, had a pleasant evening until we started to do our homework for MC. We're working through a book on affairs. She got so angry at being referred to as the "unfaithful partner" that she threw the papers. Those reality hits are hard I guess. Our R talk that night got intense enough that we had to call a time out.

2:30 that next morning she wakes me up for an intense ML session; the first in weeks. She emotionally crashed after that.

The weekend otherwise got back on an even keel and has been pretty pleasant; we've been preoccupied with D10s swim meet. We're going to get back and look at the homework again tonight. She feels silly for having thrown the papers like that.

Oh, and she told me that OM was coming into town this week.

Six Flags doesn't have anything on this roller coaster

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Oh, and she told me that OM was coming into town this week.

Now that could be a good sign. Did she tell you before he came the last time?

Yeah, she's been pretty transparent about things like that. He calls on my company when he comes into town, so I usually know before she does. What I find positive is it doesn't seem to stress her out the way it did before

Rzr, I'm enjoying reading your sitch at the moment and I'm really pleased to see the progress you and W are making. I think it's good she told you about OM coming into town. It is a shift in dynamic from previous OM visits where she and he may have been planning things and you didn't know.

Now she is telling you up front that he will be around. Sounds good to me.

*hug* Here, watching, listening.

Thanks Little and Toots! I appreciate your encouragement!

It's two steps forward, one step back. We had a great week and weekend until W made the mistake of looking at a pic of OM and his W on Facebook. Queue emotional crash. Geez.

With all that's going on; the arrival of OM, impending surgery, our issues, she's feeling pretty overwhelmed.

Emotional crash because it's OM and his W!

Another nail there RZr

V

Another nail?

Clumsy wording, my apologies

Another nail in OMs coffin Rzr. In other words OM with W on FB, what a scuzz bag with a lying heart.

Rzr, you know my view, these OMs are the worst kind of pond scum.

V

Ah, I understand.

Yep, A pic on her FB page, his arm around her, helping her paint the interior of her store.

Did NOT sit well with W.

OM has cheated on his W twice before, by his own admission. I keep hoping that my W will figure out that this guy may just be lying about how unhappy his marriage actually is. I know if I was trying to start an A I certainly would not tell the prospective OW that I was happy with my W.

I share your opinion on OMs. It's not so much hate that I feel any more, it's just disdain. I view him as more pathetic than evil.

W has seen OM this morning, in the normal course of business. She called me to let me know. She claims that things were not awkward between them and that he's firmly back in the "friend zone". I'm taking that with a grain of salt, but if she believes it, great. She's never been one to placate me or tell me what I want to hear. We'll see.

Originally Posted By: Rzrback

Yep, A pic on her FB page, his arm around her, helping her paint the interior of her store.

Did NOT sit well with W.

Originally Posted By: Rzrback

W has seen OM this morning, in the normal course of business. She called me to let me know. She claims that things were not awkward between them and that he's firmly back in the "friend zone". I'm taking that with a grain of salt, but if she believes it, great. She's never been one to placate me or tell me what I want to hear. We'll see.

Two contradicting stances...I suspect that the first one is the more "real" one for W. Still does not have the XOM out of her system completely.

Originally Posted By: Wonka

Two contradicting stances...I suspect that the first one is the more "real" one for W. Still does not have the XOM out of her system completely.

Yeah, I rolled my eyes at the "friend zone" comment. I know better than to take what she tells me at face value. He won't be truly out of her system for months yet. She's still sticking to NC; not as much as I want, since she looked at him on FB, but I'm still confident that there's no two-way communication going on. She seems to be trying. Watch and wait.

I could be wrong, but common sense at least tells me that the more W comes out of her own little bubble and sees things like A pic on her FB page, his arm around her, helping her paint the interior of her store, the more the reality will settle-in that he's not all she fantasized him to be. It will probably have a lot to do with her own mentality: The more she detaches from him (which will happen in time, even without much effort on her part, as long as she steers clear from physical interaction), the less those things will bother her. It's exactly the same as we actually make the effort to do here when we "go dark" and begin to detach. Know what I mean?

Originally Posted By: Train

I could be wrong, but common sense at least tells me that the more W comes out of her own little bubble and sees things like A pic on her FB page, his arm around her, helping her paint the interior of her store, the more the reality will settle-in that he's not all she fantasized him to be. It will probably have a lot to do with her own mentality: The more she detaches from him (which will happen in time, even without much effort on her part, as long as she steers clear from physical interaction), the less those things will bother her. It's exactly the same as we actually make the effort to do here when we "go dark" and begin to detach. Know what I mean?

I hope that's the case. I would like to see all contact, even passive contact, stop entirely. My thought is that anything like that will keep emotions stirred up. Do I see signs that her feelings about OM aren't as intense? Yes. I just think that if she would make the break entirely that her feelings would dissipate that much more rapidly. She wants to detach from him and reconnect to me, but wants to do it "her way". Any suggestion I make that she take him off FB etc is interpreted as a demand, though even I don't see that as a nonnegotiable. I feel like she is sincere about wanting to reconnect with me, I just think that the way she's doing it is prolonging the agony, for her and for me.

Originally Posted By: Rzrback

W has seen OM this morning, in the normal course of business. She called me to let me know. She claims that things were not awkward between them and that he's firmly back in the "friend zone". I'm taking that with a grain of salt, but if she believes it, great. She's never been one to placate me or tell me what I want to hear. We'll see.

A: "Thank you, (Wife), for letting me know that. I appreciate it."

There . . . fixed it for you.

Originally Posted By: Train

I could be wrong, but common sense at least tells me that the more W comes out of her own little bubble and sees things like A pic on her FB page, his arm around her, helping her paint the interior of her store, the more the reality will settle-in that he's not all she fantasized him to be. It will probably have a lot to do with her own mentality: The more she detaches from him (which will happen in time, even without much effort on her part, as long as she steers clear from physical interaction), the less those things will bother her. It's exactly the same as we actually make the effort to do here when we "go dark" and begin to detach. Know what I mean?

I agree with this, eventually. ONCE a wayward spouse is over their OM/OW and fully out of the withdrawal stage (both "hard" and "soft" withdrawal). Because then, they have already fully or nearly-fully opened up to their betrayed spouse emotionally, and are fully "over" their OP, and able to see these "warts" you point out here, Train.

However, I don't think the fetching Mrs. Rzr is NEAR there yet, and I'd prefer to see full NC. In her current emotional state, I do see some risk that even negative encounters will count merely as encounters, and set her withdrawal "clock" back. It's not ideal, but it's good that she told Rzr the guy was coming to town, and good that she told him that she she encountered him today.

Starsky

I knew full well that she would see him today, and yet she still felt the need to call me. I'm taking her willingness to keep me in the loop as a good thing. And yes, I think full NC has yet to be achieved. She's not there yet. And me demanding that she be there is obviously not going to fly. She did suffer a setback yesterday (even she calls it a setback), but those are to be expected.

I have thanked her before for being forthcoming with me, and I'll thank her again tonight. I'm not na�ve enough to think that she's told me absolutely everything, but I do know and appreciate that her transparency with me has been exceptional for a WW.

100% agree with you, Starsky. On everything. Having ANY contact right now is risky business and probably will force a setback in W and her progress even if only temporary. But YES. It's *great* she is being transparent.

Rzr, how often does W run into XOM in the course of business?

Every couple of months. He typically comes in Monday night and leaves Thursday. She would typically see him at work for a few minutes in the morning before he left to go see his clients.

Originally Posted By: Rzrback

I hope that's the case. I would like to see all contact, even passive contact, stop entirely. My thought is that anything like that will keep emotions stirred up. Do I see signs that her feelings about OM aren't as intense? Yes. I just think that if she would make the break entirely that her feelings would dissipate that much more rapidly. She wants to detach from him and reconnect to me, but wants to do it "her way". Any suggestion I make that she take him off FB etc is interpreted as a demand, though even I don't see that as a nonnegotiable.

Save it for your next MC session and ask for assistance on how you two can navigate this together.

Hi Rzr, I read somewhere on this forum about three levels of problematic contact with OP

top level - active in EA/PA
mid level - ongoing contact of any sort
base level - continuing to 'follow' what OP is doing and think about them...

Sounds like your W is doing the third, and may need support to really put the OM behind her and fully focus on the M. When she's thinking about OM, that's not helping re-build the M. Could be part of the grieving process....I'm no expert on this though.

Originally Posted By: Wonka

Originally Posted By: Rzrback

I hope that's the case. I would like to see all contact, even passive contact, stop entirely. My thought is that anything like that will keep emotions stirred up. Do I see signs that her feelings about OM aren't as intense? Yes. I just think that if she would make the break entirely that her feelings would dissipate that much more rapidly. She wants to detach from him and reconnect to me, but wants to do it "her way". Any suggestion I make that she take him off FB etc is interpreted as a demand, though even I don't see that as a nonnegotiable.

Save it for your next MC session and ask for assistance on how you two can navigate this together.

Funny you should mention that, Wonka. Guess what my MC homework is for next week?

Originally Posted By: Toots

Hi Rzr, I read somewhere on this forum about three levels of problematic contact with OP

top level - active in EA/PA
mid level - ongoing contact of any sort
base level - continuing to 'follow' what OP is doing and think about them...

Sounds like your W is doing the third, and may need support to really put the OM behind her and fully focus on the M. When she's thinking about OM, that's not helping re-build the M. Could be part of the grieving process....I'm no expert on this though.

She's definitely on the 3rd level. Her rhetoric is that she gets depressed at the idea of cutting off her "friend", saying that's not how she treats "friends". This friend that she never actually speaks to but every couple of months. I'm sure this is the grieving process talking.

Any ideas on how I can provide support? I've suggested her removing him from her phone and Facebook and deleting any pics she has. I've framed it as advice to help her get over OM, not as a demand...but of course she views it as a demand. This is an area where I've had a terrible time. I can usually be calm and supportive when she's talking about our core issues, but when she starts talking about OM, it's hard to hide my anger.

Rzr

I would bet he has a new girlfriend before too long.

Mutter,
V

... if he doesn't already ...

What a douchebag.

Originally Posted By: Train

... if he doesn't already ...

What a douchebag.

Douchebag is just about the nicest thing I've called him

He travels a lot, I bet he's got a new GF. Probably used the same "frigid wife" story too.

W tried to tell me last night that he's not really a bad person. Keeping my food down is a challenge sometimes.

She had a panic attack when we got home from the gym last night. Not cruel, just panicky. But I kept my cool. Ended up being one of the most respectful and productive R talks we've had in a long time. She says she doesn't feel progress, but I see little bits and pieces all the time. If she doesn't feel connection with me, why does she always run to me when she's freaking out?

Hey Rzr,
Been selfishly quiet lately, but still ready everyone's story. I still see much promise in yours. I am trying to wade through similar waters.

Hey - would you rather her run to someone else when she's freaking out?

Originally Posted By: u-turn

Hey Rzr,
Been selfishly quiet lately, but still ready everyone's story. I still see much promise in yours. I am trying to wade through similar waters.

Hey - would you rather her run to someone else when she's freaking out?

Oh, don't think I'm complaining, u-turn. Just find it curious, that's all

Getting ready to go home for the day...

I know that W has seen OM today at work. I also fully expect another panic like she had yesterday. She literally had her hands on her knees, trying to catch her breath. She's terrified of staying with me and staying unhappy, she's terrified of letting me go and being unhappy, she's terrified of being alone, she's terrified of everything. She hasn't done anything wrong that I know of, but I know the fact that he's in town this week is stressing her out. Any ideas on how I should handle this?

Rzr,

You can empathize with W and leave it alone. "I can only imagine how rough and confusing this is for you. I know that you'll figure things out." Smile and then turn to the kitchen to cook...whatever.

Might want to read up on the Boundaries Cheat Sheet to prevent your talks from going off the rails AGAIN.

Boundaries: Cheat Sheet

I'm keeping that link Wonka, it's great stuff. Thanks!

I got home, she had dinner ready and a smile on her face. We had dinner and then played board games with the Ds. No mention of OM or R.

We're curled up watching Big Bang Theory right now.

She's such an enigma, but I'll run with it.

Unexpected good night last night. Had dinner, board games with our Ds, we curled up in bed to watch TV.

Neither one of us mentioned OM or our R, not even obliquely.

I'm sure she's trying to live "as if", like our C recommended. I agree that we need to lay off each other. I liked it, but of course I second-guess everything I do. Am I letting her back too easily? I do feel like she's really trying.

I got back from the gym and she had another emotional crash. Out of nowhere. I know she's not doing anything wrong; she's not contacting him, but I know it's all about him. How do I handle this? I'm not willing to cheerlead her where he's concerned, but I want to be there for her. I know she's trying. I'm just trying to keep things up at this point. I'm sick of living my life around her and her unstable moods and by extension, him.

What does she say and do during these crashes? Is she respectful at least towards you, remorseful at all? Or is it spew?

It's the re-contact. It's going to affect her.

Remember bad is good. Her emotional crashes may indicate that she is actually "kicking the habit". This cannot last forever - right?

Just be the solid man that you know how to be. She will find you.

Patience

Starsky, it's all three. It starts out about her depression and hopelessness in general, then it goes into her connection with him and how frustrated she is that she can't find it with me. I tell her she just needs to work through it and it takes time.

She alternates between respectful and spew. I can't keep up.

For the most part, this is on her to figure out. And as much as you want to show support, you are very limited in what you can do. I think I have asked this before but can't remember, has the C explained to your W about the withdrawals, doubts, confused feelings, and fear of uncertainty? Has she explained this is all normal and has nothing to do with love for the OM?

Some of the details, time slots, etc., during my withdrawal is a little fuzzy after all these years. Of course I don't dwell on it, so that may be why. I remember how I felt and the depression and panic attacks, etc. However, I did not talk about feelings for OM to my H. Just b/c that's what I did is no measuring stick for another WW, I'm just expressing thoughts here. I read a lot of books, and it helped me cope. I still had weak moments, but I was able to comprehend what was happening to me, once I received the information. However, if I had not cut all manner of contact with OM.........I could be telling a different story. It would have been a lengthy emotional hell to endure. In that regard, I can feel for your W. I was told right here on the board what was coming, and AmyC (former WW) & imlyn (former LBW) held my hand a few times off the board. So, yes I understand the need for support.

To me, it just doesn't seem right for her to discuss her feelings about OM to you, and for sure, not verbally compare her feelings for you with those for OM. It may sound crazy to say it seems disrespectful (considering how disrespectful an A is) but it continues to inflict pain on you to hear this. Would it not be better for her to meet with the MC alone a few times, rather than continue to rehash this with you?

I did end up having to cut off the conversation a couple of times. Ironically, I'm the person she instinctively wants to go to when she's upset.

The boundary for me gets hit when she starts talking about her feelings for OM or, as what happened this weekend, she starts openly worrying about her dating prospects. She's sitting there telling her husband that she's worried about being too old (at 43!) and too busy to meet someone!

The two times that happened this weekend, I shut the conversation down. Saturday night was a knock down drag out argument; it got so heated that the next morning she floated the idea of a trial separation, something I'm considering. Sunday was far calmer and more respectful, at least until she started worrying about her dating prospects. At that point I told her (kept it calm) that when she did that it was completely disrespectful and we needed to stop talking before things got out of hand. I do recall telling her that if she wanted to be single again I'd respect her decision, but it also meant that I wouldn't give a flip about her man troubles. Fortunately I was already on my way to meet a student so I could remove myself from the situation without it seeming that I was abandoning. W seemed to respond well; that evening she was warmer and more affectionate than she had been with me in weeks.

In MC today the therapist did tell her that it was normal for her to feel her panic, confusion and hopelessness while she's grieving. She related it (I thought this was brilliant) to when my W's father died. After the initial shock, my W would seemingly do OK and then crash for no particular reason. That seemed to resonate with her.

We have discussed W meeting with the therapist alone, but neither one of us remembered to mention it in session.

Originally Posted By: Rzrback

Starsky, it's all three. It starts out about her depression and hopelessness in general, then it goes into her connection with him and how frustrated she is that she can't find it with me. I tell her she just needs to work through it and it takes time.

She alternates between respectful and spew. I can't keep up.

I think you guys are too far into this (a month, right?) for her to still be doing this. I'm glad you're ending the conversations when she does this.

I'm also not so sure that a trial separation might not work to your ADVANTAGE. I wouldn't agree to it yet, but if she's still this fogged out, say, another month from now, I'd probably advise you to do SOMETHING to upset the equilibrium here. She clearly doesn't credibly fear losing you . . . (and yet she DOES fear being alone! hmmmm . . . .)

Starsky

We're 3 months since NC and 6 months since BD. Yep, we're too far in. I think she's sticking to her word on NC, but his little jaunts to our fair city are not helping.

Yeah, I can't take that dating shtick anymore. I'll allow some verbal diarrhea but that little theme has gone on too long. My basic message to her on that has been, if you want to start treating me like your husband, I'm here, but otherwise we don't have much to discuss.

She brought up the trial S on Sunday morning, after we had a particularly bad Saturday night. It wasn't mentioned in the midst of anger or spew; her thought was that we're too much in each other's faces. She's having a hard time working through everything with me constantly there and her constantly tempted to come to me with her problems.

I tend to agree. Saturday night was yet another demonstration that I'm having a problem still with detaching. Two months ago I would have fought her tooth and nail, but I'm considering it now. She's not the only one who needs some clarity.

The trial S would have boundaries; no playing single. We'd still consider ourselves married; we'd still go to counseling and date each other, and have a family dinner once a week. Between those times I'd stay pretty busy and dark.

She's very open about not wanting to be alone; she just doesn't feel that connection she craves with me. It's interesting that after I demonstrated open-mindedness about a trial S she suddenly became so affectionate.

One thing I haven't brought up yet is how I envision our relationship post-D, if it comes to that. I'd never be mean or cruel to her, but aside from necessary communication about our Ds I'd pretty much be out of her life. That's not out of anger, it's for my sanity. I don't want to waste time with a woman who doesn't want me, and I don't want the torture of seeing her build a life with someone else. I'm not interested in being platonic friends with her. I don't know if she really understands that.

Quote:

that evening she was warmer and more affectionate than she had been with me in weeks.

So why don't you call her out more often?

Quote:

She brought up the trial S on Sunday morning, after we had a particularly bad Saturday night. It wasn't mentioned in the midst of anger or spew; her thought was that we're too much in each other's faces. She's having a hard time working through everything with me constantly there and her constantly tempted to come to me with her problems.

The trial S would have boundaries; no playing single. We'd still consider ourselves married; we'd still go to counseling and date each other, and have a family dinner once a week. Between those times I'd stay pretty busy and dark.

I understand what you are saying, but I don't think she'll see it the same way. You want to keep tight reigns on her so she won't date. She is giving heavy thinking time to dating. If you S, I think she will have to take that opportunity to play single.

I don't doubt the space would do both of you good. You smother each other to death! And, she's just as controlling as you are.......just in a different way.

The LBH wants to S to work on the M, but the WW wants to S to play single. Dating would be a risk factor, but on the other hand, it could prove to be a valuable learning experience for her. What I wonder is how much of all that thought time has she considered you would be dating also?

I may sound as if I am trying to encourage you to S, but I am really just stating a few issues about it. Issues I think are closer to reality than you saying there would have to be boundaries of no dating. What would you do if she didn't honor your honor that boundary? Leave her?

She is so consumed in her FEELINGS all the blessed time (which is what a WW does) that she doesn't consider your feelings near enough. Likewise about her thoughts on dating. You have been so attached and so pursuing trying to keep her in the M, until she doesn't worry about you wanting out of the M......and especially to date other women.

I think part of the control, on your part, is not going out to GAL. You want to be sure you are there every evening to keep things secured. She manipulates you by playing the "abandonment" card. Until this cycle is broken, how can it ever hope to change?

Before deciding to S, I wish you would really start detaching and GAL. If she wants to sit at home and accuse you of abandoning her, let her. It seems to be more of a selfish problem rather than fear of being alone, IMHO.

Quote:

that evening she was warmer and more affectionate than she had been with me in weeks.

So why don't you call her out more often?

Yeah, it was the push-pull dynamic at work. I want to try that again

Quote:

I understand what you are saying, but I don't think she'll see it the same way. You want to keep tight reigns on her so she won't date. She is giving heavy thinking time to dating. If you S, I think she will have to take that opportunity to play single.

I don't doubt the space would do both of you good. You smother each other to death! And, she's just as controlling as you are.......just in a different way.

The LBH wants to S to work on the M, but the WW wants to S to play single. Dating would be a risk factor, but on the other hand, it could prove to be a valuable learning experience for her. What I wonder is how much of all that thought time has she considered you would be dating also?

A couple of months ago I would have been more afraid of that. When she first mentioned an S back in December I had no doubt that she was trying to get me out of the way so she could at least communicate with OM. Now, I see that as a less likely scenario. But yes, she would certainly have the opportunity. I have far more faith in her ability to attract a man than she does.

Quote:

I may sound as if I am trying to encourage you to S, but I am really just stating a few issues about it. Issues I think are closer to reality than you saying there would have to be boundaries of no dating. What would you do if she didn't honor your honor that boundary? Leave her?

Maybe. If we agreed on boundaries and she violated them, that would make things very clear on whether I could trust her or not. Not being able to trust her would be a deal breaker.

Quote:

She is so consumed in her FEELINGS all the blessed time (which is what a WW does) that she doesn't consider your feelings near enough. Likewise about her thoughts on dating. You have been so attached and so pursuing trying to keep her in the M, until she doesn't worry about you wanting out of the M......and especially to date other women.

I think part of the control, on your part, is not going out to GAL. You want to be sure you are there every evening to keep things secured. She manipulates you by playing the "abandonment" card. Until this cycle is broken, how can it ever hope to change?

Before deciding to S, I wish you would really start detaching and GAL. If she wants to sit at home and accuse you of abandoning her, let her. It seems to be more of a selfish problem rather than fear of being alone, IMHO.

I'm not going to mention S again for a while. It's something I'm considering, but I want to see where we are a month from now. There's no doubt I feel manipulated a lot by her. When she's in a bad emotional state, she cares about nothing but herself. I'm not there every evening, but I am more than I should. Now that she at least seems to be more engaged in working on our M, I'm not sure how detached to be. I see the point in making her at least consider that I have other options.

Journaling today, nothing earth-shattering to report.

We're continuing to live "as-if", per our homework assignment from therapist. I could tell she was down yesterday, and we did have a brief R talk. It was fine; she's worried about our life after kids. We've got one going off to college in a couple of years, but we still have 8 years with our younger D, so it's not like we'll be empty-nesters in the immediate future.

She's worried that we don't have enough in common to sustain us after the kids leave. I'm a little worried about that too; it seems like right now if we don't talk about our R, we don't have much to talk about. That said, I don't think it's that important to have a lot in common in order to have a healthy M. I think we have a good balance of individual and common interests. It's more important to be complementary to each other. Her stress mostly comes down to the lack of attraction and connection she feels with me.

Right now I feel on top of the world, like I've finally dropped the rope. I feel in control of myself for the first time in a long time. I don't want to be alone; I want a partner. If she doesn't want to be my W, so be it. There are plenty of others who would love to have the job. Even W tells me I'm a catch. If I'm such a catch, why is she thinking about throwing me back?

Of course, I say "right now" that's how I feel because she hasn't tested me in a few days. Even as good as I feel I'm steeling myself for the next time she does.

Oh, and OM is gracing us with his presence again next week. Lovely.

Originally Posted By: Rzrback

I don't want to be alone; I want a partner. If she doesn't want to be my W, so be it. There are plenty of others who would love to have the job. Even W tells me I'm a catch. If I'm such a catch, why is she thinking about throwing me back?

That made me smile and laugh, Rzr -- too funny (and maybe too TRUE to be funny for you, but it still made me chuckle).

Starsky

Starsky, believe it or not it even made me chuckle a bit...not in front of her, of course.

You do have a real way with the written word, Rzr.

Thanks Starsky, I appreciate that. If someone had told my teenage self that one day I'd actually enjoy writing....

I think my XH and your W are the same person. My X spent a good deal of time during our final goodbye telling me what a wonderful, amazing, incredible wife I am and how I should look for someone else because not looking for love would deny some lucky man of having me. I wanted to ask why HE no longer cared to be that lucky man, but I just let it go and laughed at the irony. UGH! You are a good man, living "as if"...that takes incredible strength on your part. Sounds like your attitude is in a really good place and I am proud for you.

Thanks Dawn; I love reading your posts. You're inspiring me!

I don't know how much of it is strength, or if I'm just tired of being afraid. I feel good now, but I also know she hasn't tested me in the last few days. She floated the idea of a trial S last Sunday after we had a rough Saturday night....I was surprised to find myself actually considering the idea. Would have fought her tooth and nail on that a couple of months ago, just out of sheer terror that she would decide she was happier without me. It hasn't come back up in the last couple of days, but you never know.

It's confusing as can be. When my W is in a good mental state she acknowledges how great I am (did that not sound a bit arrogant?). When she's in a bad state, well, then I'm the source of all her problems. Sometimes I just want to shake her and say "If I'm such a great guy, why are you doing this???" At least she doesn't pull the "I need a real man" crap she did in the beginning.

I do feel that she's trying. I can see differences in her behavior and rhetoric that tell me she really wants to try and work things out. She's terrified of being alone, whereas I am mostly not. The problem as I see it is that her idea of success, achieving that mysterious "connection" is so undefinable I don't know if we'll ever really get there. How do I know we're good? Is she going to announce it to me?

Several things had to come together for me to get to where I am. The shock and awe of the whole thing finally wore off. More recently I lost the fear of being alone and started even acknowledging that it was a little tempting. Had some nice (casual, innocent) interactions with several attractive women that boosted my confidence in that area. I started to take a big picture view of my sitch, that it's the 2x4 I needed to overcome my inertia and get back on my game as a man. I was autopiloting a lot of areas in my life, both personal and professional. I feel different in so many ways. I was recently sent a picture of myself from an event just last summer and I felt like I didn't even recognize the guy...thank God!

I ran across a motivational speech by a Florida high school football coach called "I am a champion". It's on Google, like everything else. The speech itself doesn't fit perfectly, since it's about football, not marriage, but some of the lines really spoke to me. I listen to that speech almost every morning.

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She's worried that we don't have enough in common to sustain us after the kids leave. I'm a little worried about that too; it seems like right now if we don't talk about our R, we don't have much to talk about.

I did not suffer the empty nest syndrome. My H and I had had someone living in the house with us since the day we were M, so to finally have just the two of us was wonderful. We loved it! It just didn't last very long. Kids just leave home, go multiply and come back with additions.

Since you can presently recognize the difficulty that could be in the future, which is finding something in common apart from the kids and having a R talk.......now is the time to begin changing that direction. Find something you both love doing as a hobby, fun activity, project, volunteering, etc.

She's not helping herself by worrying about these things in the future, however, it is part of that filtering she has to do. I honestly don't know how you stay as patient as you are with her. It would drive me crazy to hear that same old tune playing over and over.

She has to actually make some effort, herself, in this MR. It's as if she is just there pondering over the same old issues and looking at you to "prove" to her this can work. You must feel like a defense attorney at trial.

To her, she probably feels she is doing all she can at the moment. I know that's how I felt. And also, I have to remember we are just hearing your side of it.

You are doing good. Just steer away from those R talks.

Rzr,

I would have said to W in the following scenarios:

W: Can't get over the OM...blah blah....

Rzr: I am not having this conversation. You know where I stand on this subject. walk away

W: I can't take it anymore. Let's do a trial S or separate.

Rzr: Yeah, I agree....that's the best idea ever. Let's do it. You can move out because it seems when things get too difficult, you want to separate every single time as if it is the only solution.

I am with Sandi. You two need to explore NEW things and expand your horizons as a couple. Why don't you take the initiative and sign up for a cooking class that you & W can go together at a local college/continuing education course?

Just do it.

Originally Posted By: Rzrback

The problem as I see it is that her idea of success, achieving that mysterious "connection" is so undefinable I don't know if we'll ever really get there. How do I know we're good? Is she going to announce it to me?

Your wife REALLY needs to gain a better understanding of the difference between limerence and true, sustaining, mature love. You two are 21 years in, and if she's still looking for the former, she's going to find her feelings towards you forever lacking somehow, and the next "adventure" just around the bend with someone else.

My greatest concern for you is not the current OM, but rather this lack of introspection and emotional maturity in your wife. Because unless she comes to terms with it, you're just going to be staring down the barrel of OM2 and OM3 down the road, I'm afraid.

Has MC discussed this with her at all? Even better would be if she'd have a really good IC dig deep with her about it.

Starsky

Originally Posted By: sandi2

I did not suffer the empty nest syndrome. My H and I had had someone living in the house with us since the day we were M, so to finally have just the two of us was wonderful. We loved it! It just didn't last very long. Kids just leave home, go multiply and come back with additions.

Since you can presently recognize the difficulty that could be in the future, which is finding something in common apart from the kids and having a R talk.......now is the time to begin changing that direction. Find something you both love doing as a hobby, fun activity, project, volunteering, etc.

I would agree. We actually do have several things in common...film, travel, for example. We've talked about some other things, like scuba certification. She's depressed enough right now that nothing sounds interesting. That'll come later.

Quote:

She's not helping herself by worrying about these things in the future, however, it is part of that filtering she has to do. I honestly don't know how you stay as patient as you are with her. It would drive me crazy to hear that same old tune playing over and over.

She has to actually make some effort, herself, in this MR. It's as if she is just there pondering over the same old issues and looking at you to "prove" to her this can work. You must feel like a defense attorney at trial.

Sandi, you continue to amaze me. That's exactly what's happening...same stuff, different day. The songs never change, and I'm sitting there pointing out the good stuff in our R, which the bad habit I'm trying to kick. There's been some times where it was good that the room was dark so she couldn't see my eyes roll. We're a decade from being empty nesters, for pete's sake. I think we'll figure out whether things are repairable between us long before that.

Quote:

To her, she probably feels she is doing all she can at the moment. I know that's how I felt. And also, I have to remember we are just hearing your side of it.

You are doing good. Just steer away from those R talks.

You're right, you're only hearing my side, but it's the correct side

She's got plenty of legitimate complaints about me, too....I haven't always been the husband she needed, for sure. She's not as eager to R talk as she used to be. It feels good to finally start shutting down the R talks when they get "spewy" and to minimize them when they're not. I finally figured out that staying cool and positive (I've been trying to channel Matthew McConaughey) keeps the R talks short and, if not sweet, at least tolerable.

Originally Posted By: Starsky309

Your wife REALLY needs to gain a better understanding of the difference between limerence and true, sustaining, mature love. You two are 21 years in, and if she's still looking for the former, she's going to find her feelings towards you forever lacking somehow, and the next "adventure" just around the bend with someone else.

My greatest concern for you is not the current OM, but rather this lack of introspection and emotional maturity in your wife. Because unless she comes to terms with it, you're just going to be staring down the barrel of OM2 and OM3 down the road, I'm afraid.

I'm afraid of that too. The term "emotional maturity" just does not fit with my W. She can sit there and rationally know that he probably lied to her about his marriage, that infidelity is just how he rolls, that he's a user who saw her rocky marriage as an opportunity for his own gratification, and she still says she's struggling to get over him. Her rhetoric is that she's an emotionally driven person, and she can't seem to get her head to overrule her heart.

She knows that I'm a great match for her on paper, but she doesn't "feel" it, and that's what really counts to her. Otherwise she's resigning herself to a lukewarm relationship with me. My eyes are rolling just writing this crap.

Quote:

Has MC discussed this with her at all? Even better would be if she'd have a really good IC dig deep with her about it.

I've been generally happy with our MC, but this has been a disappointment for me. She has brought this up but not very forcefully IMHO. My W has shot down the idea of IC numerous times.

Originally Posted By: Wonka

Rzr,

I would have said to W in the following scenarios:

W: Can't get over the OM...blah blah....

Rzr: I am not having this conversation. You know where I stand on this subject. walk away

W: I can't take it anymore. Let's do a trial S or separate.

Rzr: Yeah, I agree....that's the best idea ever. Let's do it. You can move out because it seems when things get too difficult, you want to separate every single time as if it is the only solution.

I am with Sandi. You two need to explore NEW things and expand your horizons as a couple. Why don't you take the initiative and sign up for a cooking class that you & W can go together at a local college/continuing education course?

Just do it.

I'm waiting for the next time she brings up OM. I was able to shut things down last time and the world did not implode. Maybe I have a taste for it now.

I was thinking scuba, but yeah, I think it's time.

Maybe we need to S for a while. Maybe we need life apart for a while to truly get clarity, for both of us.

She called me from work this morning, full of panic and spew. I did my best to keep things calm, but I never do as well as I intend to. I had to cut off the conversation a couple of times because it was spiraling. She's right back to anger. She's angry at me because I'm not willing to listen to her talk about OM or her worries about dating. It means I'm not there for her, and I'm not taking responsibility for my role in the breakdown of our M. It's why she can't trust me. She isn't willing to be there for me emotionally but thinks I need to drop everything to be there for her anytime she wants.

She talks about being only about herself right now, because she has to be. (Like that's different from any other time). I'm actually OK with that. I'm on fire to improve myself, because it's the key to having a good life and a good relationship, whether it's with her or not. I think she should be that way too.

Here's the latest text exchange. I was encouraging her to get with an IC because it was something she could do to help her feel better. Her reply? "I did do something to make me feel better", meaning get with OM. I hung up at that point. Text conversation follows:

W: No wonder I don't trust you

R: I'm sorry for hanging up on you. We need a time out. The discussion was spiraling out of control and I don't want to do that again.

W: All I know is I am ALONE and have NO ONE!

R: That's why I think you finding an IC is a fantastic idea. Someone who is objective. I love you and want to help you any way I can but I'm pretty limited in what I can do or say.

No reply from W.

The good news is that she's wanting to talk to an IC. I'm behind that 100%.

I'm sorry, Rzr. I know this is mentally and emotionally EXHAUSTING you. It's exhausting ME, and I'm not even the one in the sitch!

Originally Posted By: Rzrback

Maybe we need to S for a while. Maybe we need life apart for a while to truly get clarity, for both of us.

She called me from work this morning, full of panic and spew. I did my best to keep things calm, but I never do as well as I intend to. I had to cut off the conversation a couple of times because it was spiraling. She's right back to anger. She's angry at me because I'm not willing to listen to her talk about OM or her worries about dating. It means I'm not there for her, and I'm not taking responsibility for my role in the breakdown of our M. It's why she can't trust me. She isn't willing to be there for me emotionally but thinks I need to drop everything to be there for her anytime she wants.

She talks about being only about herself right now, because she has to be. (Like that's different from any other time). I'm actually OK with that. I'm on fire to improve myself, because it's the key to having a good life and a good relationship, whether it's with her or not. I think she should be that way too.

Here's the latest text exchange. I was encouraging her to get with an IC because it was something she could do to help her feel better. Her reply? "I did do something to make me feel better", meaning get with OM. I hung up at that point. Text conversation follows:

W: No wonder I don't trust you

R: I'm sorry for hanging up on you. We need a time out. The discussion was spiraling out of control and I don't want to do that again.

W: All I know is I am ALONE and have NO ONE!

R: That's why I think you finding an IC is a fantastic idea. Someone who is objective. I love you and want to help you any way I can but I'm pretty limited in what I can do or say.

No reply from W.

The good news is that she's wanting to talk to an IC. I'm behind that 100%.

"(Wife), you are saying that if I'm willing to talk to you about ANYTHING in the world, but not your feelings for another man or about dating other men if our marriage shouldn't work out . . . that I'm not 'being there' for you?"

W: "Yes."

Rzr: "Wow."

Exhausting is not a strong enough word. If I'm too calm or not willing to discuss certain things, then I don't care. If I'm too animated, then I'm bullying.

I'm sick of her treating me like her gay BF. I told her point blank (again) this morning that I was not going to be treated that way and that I wasn't interested in being her platonic friend.

Then I don't care and I'm not there for her. It's my fault she's screwed up. Apparently not being willing to bend over and take whatever she throws at me is "shutting her down". Geeez.

Originally Posted By: sandi2

She has to actually make some effort, herself, in this MR. It's as if she is just there pondering over the same old issues and looking at you to "prove" to her this can work. You must feel like a defense attorney at trial.

Sandi, you nailed it again. From our R talk this morning (I shut it down eventually)

W: "How am I ever going to trust you again?" (In referring to my mishandling of my parents).

All she cares about is what I'm doing to make her feel better and she's angry because nothing I do or say works. I'm exhausted.

Originally Posted By: Rzrback

Originally Posted By: sandi2

She has to actually make some effort, herself, in this MR. It's as if she is just there pondering over the same old issues and looking at you to "prove" to her this can work. You must feel like a defense attorney at trial.

Sandi, you nailed it again. From our R talk this morning (I shut it down eventually)

W: "How am I ever going to trust you again?" (In referring to my mishandling of my parents).

All she cares about is what I'm doing to make her feel better and she's angry because nothing I do or say works. I'm exhausted.

Rzr, not trying to further kick you when you're down, but I don't think I've EVER seen a successful reconciliation after an affair where the formerly cheating spouse didn't do the overwhelming majority of the "work," at least in the initial few months. While the WORDS "I'm sorry" don't always come forth, the EFFORT and ATTITUDE has to be one of contrition and of "doing whatever it takes" to try and reconcile the marriage, even if the feelings aren't quite there yet (and they won't be, as you know by now).

I honestly don't see that from your wife, and I haven't -- at any stage of this.

Starsky

Originally Posted By: Starsky309

Rzr, not trying to further kick you when you're down, but I don't think I've EVER seen a successful reconciliation after an affair where the formerly cheating spouse didn't do the overwhelming majority of the "work," at least in the initial few months. While the WORDS "I'm sorry" don't always come forth, the EFFORT and ATTITUDE has to be one of contrition and of "doing whatever it takes" to try and reconcile the marriage, even if the feelings aren't quite there yet (and they won't be, as you know by now).

I honestly don't see that from your wife, and I haven't -- at any stage of this.

Starsky

Unfortunately I don't see it right now either. I thought I saw it in bits and pieces; the last couple of weeks I finally started feeling like she was present. This morning proved me wrong.

Her words this morning: "I don't feel guilty because I know what you did to me". In other words, what I did was OK because you screwed me up, Rzr.

I don't expect contrition per se, she doesn't need to beg my forgiveness; I've mostly forgiven her for the A itself. I take a lot of responsibility for the mistakes I made in our M but blaming me for her current emotional state seems to be all she cares about. I don't know what to do anymore.

Just got off the phone after her screaming at me for f****** her up for life.

Don't lose your s*** Rzr, maintain heading, altitude, airspeed.

Originally Posted By: Rzrback

I don't expect contrition per se, she doesn't need to beg my forgiveness; I've mostly forgiven her for the A itself. I take a lot of responsibility for the mistakes I made in our M but blaming me for her current emotional state seems to be all she cares about.

There is a distinction between "begging your forgiveness," and an overall attitude and level of effort that exudes remorse and contrition. And I'm talking about FINAL stage of remorse kind of remorse (from my personal archives):

I do think your wife is in one of the early stages of remorse, but there are several stages. They'll go from "I'm sorry I got caught," to "I'm sorry for ME that I've messed myself up so much," to "I'm sorry for YOU that I hurt you (but I still don't see anything wrong with what I did)," to finally a more self-aware "I'm sorry for what I did because IT WAS THE WRONG THING TO DO, on so many levels. For me, for the pain I caused my husband, for the breaking of my vows, etc."

Again, being painfully honest here, I don't your wife has ever moved past even Stage Two of that.

I don't think she's even gotten to stage 2. She's angry at me for screwing her up and making her do what she did. Her words. This sitch went from tolerable to bad literally overnight

It's like she's trying to get me to lose my s***

Don't make any decisions today, while you're angry. Continue to call her when she's downright rude or disrespectful, and end convos when you can, and give yourself time to think and time to get advice here.

I'd welcome other folks' thoughts here, as I tend to be a pretty "white hats & black hats" kinda guy, at least at this stage. (I do think the full "piecing" stage requires much more "grey," but DBing/affair-busting, and EARLY piecing, should be pretty black-and-white i.m.h.o.) So take what a say with the necessary two grains of salt.

Starsky

That's why I'm posting. I don't want to decide anything until I get some feedback and also until I have a chance to talk with her face to face, calmly. Me spending my entire workday on the phone getting berated is not the path to mature decision making.

Rzr,

I feel for you....really do.

I think it is time to draw a line at calling you at work. Deep convos cannot happen during work so they need to be saved for another time at the house.

Your W needs IC to work through her own unhappiness. I would ask your MC for solution-based ideas to get you two back on track. I think your MC is a bit too "talk" instead of focusing on "solutions."

What do you think?

I don't know what happened. She completely imploded this morning. I haven't been on the receiving end of anger like this in months.

She wants to leave but thinks she can't make it financially. And it's all my fault.

I wasn't a good enough husband.

I screwed her up for life.

She wasted her life and youth on me.

Everything bad that's happening is being done "to" her. mostly by me.

It's like October 2014 all over again.

She wanted an IC this morning, now she rejects the idea, since it won't "fix" her and reestablish her attraction to me. And it's all my fault.

We can't talk very well because it's work, and she's constantly interrupted. I'm thinking about sending her a text, something like this.

We really shouldn't be discussing this at work. There's a lot of issues to discuss and decisions to make, and they're things we really need to discuss face to face, in our own home, calmly. I'll get home ASAP tonight so we can talk.

Feedback?

Originally Posted By: Rzrback

I don't know what happened. She completely imploded this morning. I haven't been on the receiving end of anger like this in months.

She wants to leave but thinks she can't make it financially. And it's all my fault.

I think it's a combination of two things:

1) Seeing OM again, combined with intentionally holding onto him in her mind (ruminating); and

2) Her "one foot on the platform, the other foot on the train" decision-making has her squarely between both worlds (Rzr and OM), and emotionally it $UCK$ there for her right now.

I had to press my wife -- repeatedly -- to MAKE A DECISION. Because I truly believe that what they say is true about "Love is a decision," and while I would give her six months . . . one year . . . even TWO years . . . for FEELINGS to come back, I wasn't going to give her more than even ONE DAY without making a DECISION about whether or not she wanted to remain married to me, and work at it -- together.

I think your wife believes that Love is basically Limerence -- FEELINGS. And she ain't feelin' it for ol' Rzr yet, and yet she knows being with OM is wrong, and she's STILL -- this far in -- in denial about having to make that decision.

Starsky

Rzr,

I would approach it a bit differently.

"After some careful thought, I think it would be best to save any heavy discussions for home for those require our full attention. It is difficult to do so while at work. Calling work should be reserved for actual emergencies concerning our children such as going to the hospital for example. Talk with you later tonight at home. Hope the rest of the day goes well for you."

Originally Posted By: Wonka

Rzr,

I would approach it a bit differently.

"After some careful thought, I think it would be best to save any heavy discussions for home for those require our full attention. It is difficult to do so while at work. Calling work should be reserved for actual emergencies concerning our children such as going to the hospital for example. Talk with you later tonight at home. Hope the rest of the day goes well for you."

this sounds much better^^^

Rzr,

I would emphasize to W that you are a H...not a trained therapist. It is incredibly unfair for W to unburden you with this HUGE problem that she refuses to seek professional help to sort out her thoughts and feelings.

Also tell her that it is very, very difficult for her to talk to you about her feelings for another man, being afraid to date, etc with her OWN husband sitting right in front of her. I think it's time for you to draw a line in the sand on not talking about the OM with you. Again, you are not her therapist and you are not trained to help her sort those emotions.

Rzr, not sure if you've seen Sandi's latest post on her wayward wife thread or not, but there's some PURE GOLD in here, some of which I think applies to your wife's current attitude:

Originally Posted By: sandi2

Quote:

Yes, I would LOVE to see Sandi expound upon a "Letting Them Back Too Easy?" theme, from her unique FWW perspective.

We have to consider the makeup of the wayward mindset. In my simple breakdown, I would say there are 3 main veins that run to the wayward heart/mind. Those 3 are Resentment, Disrespect, and Rebellion. If you have ever experienced dealing with these feelings yourself, or dealt with another person who had them......you know it takes a lot of work to resolve those feelings completely.

Even if she is willing and trying to come to terms with it, the emotion and flashbacks that caused the resentment, still want to creep around inside her head. And there are trigger points that can set it into a beinge effect. If she has allowed herself to be controlled by her emotions (which, of course, waywards do) then it will prove to be very challenging for her and the H, just in different ways. However, I am a firm believer that it can be accomplished, if the WW wants to let go of it badly enough. Sadly, many don't want to turn lose of anger or whatever seems to control them at the moment, as crazy as that sounds. It requires a lot of self discipline, and which we know WW's have very little. Intellectually, they know they should do everything in their power to get rid of it. But what will it take to give them that "want to" get rid of it? That is the question that leads back to the H not being able to force her what to feel. However, he can certainly influence!

I wish I knew how to explain the dynamics in the female - male relationship. Then perhaps I could better explain why her respect for the H is vitally important, and how that respect, or disrespect, affects their entire MR. It definately affects her feelings for him (and I will get back to this in a second). If a man allows his WW back into the MR........knowing he does not have her respect, he will never be appreciated, much less admired. Unless she simply fakes it, she can't admire him. Those dynamics would also better explain why she has the rebellious attitude with him, as though she were a teenager and he was the parent. It is a very complex relationship and it leaves the H completely baffled with why she would say and do some of the things she does in her wayward state.

LBH's should not let her back too easily, with no questions, no discussions or decisions. He had better have a plan and have an agreement from her to cooperate 100% with his plan before he evers says they can reconcile......then hold her to it. Rug sweeping is no solution, period. It makes matters worse, so that route needs to be taken off the table immediately. Neither can the H "nice" her out of her waywardness. This is where I think some of the LBW's here on the board may have a problem with some of the tough love advice. B/c they would love it if their bad H was nice, especially if he had been abusive. However, these ladies are not wayward, and that's the main difference. I am telling you it does not work with a wayward woman. It stems from those three areas......resentment, disrespect, and rebellion.

There are some things that time eventually heals, but I personally do not believe time, alone, can heal matters of this nature. Time, coupled with good counseling can help with
a big part. However, before a woman can begin to resolve these problems, she has to be willing to work at leaning how to let go of the past and stop blaming her H for everything. in her frame of mind, I believe she has to have some type of guidance from an unbiased source........and preferably, professional. I don't mean attending MC with her H, either. She first needs help just for herself. If she has a spiritual leader, I would recommend spiritual counseling, b/c these are matters of the heart. Once she begins to deal honestly with her feelings......and is seeking to learn new skills, the couple stands such a better chance at reconciling. And then the couple should attend a good MC or a highly recommended M program, support groups or something that will help guide them through Piecing. Just leaving a couple to figure it out on their own is not the healthiest of choices. The main ingredient there is willingness from both sides.

I believe a woman cannot hold on to these three issues toward her H and/or the M, and have a warm, loving, sexual desire for him. These strong, negative feelings will surface almost daily in some sort of fashion. Some women may be HD enough they will want the act of sex, but they use the man as if he were some type of object in order for her to receive pleasure. Some women may play along and just tolerate the sex, but she doesn't feel the attraction and desire for him. And that's not to mention those who use sex as a way to manipulate the H. She may go through the act of ML, but that's all it will be. I can't give any scientific proof, IJMHO, that it is impossible for a woman to have that kind of inner contempt for her H.......and be able to feel attraction/desire for him. I believe that is the true source for a lot of SSM.

She has to find appropriate means to help her resolve this mindset in order to have peace within herself. By that, I mean her meeting with her new friends at the bar is not the guidance she should receive to resolve her bad feelings. Even if she were to move on to another relationship, this mindset toward her H, consequently affects her ability to have complete contentment in her life, IMO. She may try to ignore it, deny it, and act otherwise......but it still lives in her heart and it is a dark, cold leach that [censored] away at the core of her spirit. So, just imagine how it would be for the LBH to allow his WW to return to the MR too easily, instead of her doing the necessary work, first.

When or if a LBH lets his WW back into the MR too easily, it is comparable to dismissing someone who is pregnant. She is pregnant and must go through a laboring process. (The pregnancy/labor metaphor is applicable to many things. I used it in the last thread illustrating Piecing the M back.) In the pregnancy stages, the H notices when things become uncomfortable for her, she is grouchy, complains, nothing suits her, etc. Her hormones are wacky, so she does some weird and out of character stuff. The H usually does whatever he can to make things easier for her. In time, she starts to experience contractions, and things go into high gear. She may, or may not, turn to a professional for help. The labor can be long and agonizing, and most H's wish there was just something he could do to take her pain away. His role during that time should be to show her he is emotionally strong, stable, and confident. She doesn't need to see him crying or begging her for anything. He doesn't show her how afraid he really feels. He doesn't start acting like a crazy person and screaming along with her, or reacting to her contractions. He doesn't even get upset when she screams, "This is all your fault. I will never let you touch me again".

This may not have been the greatest anology off the top of my head, but I hope some of you will see that the main message here is to let her go through the labor process. The H is making a bad mistake to let her back into the MR without her doing some work on herself. Why would a man want a woman to be with him and have those terrible feelings toward him? There are no short-cuts and those unresolved feelings will surface!

Perfect-O Starsky....I was just about to post the very exact section from Sandi's thread for LBHs.

Rzr, read that post and especially absorb this part:

Originally Posted By: sandi2

There are some things that time eventually heals, but I personally do not believe time, alone, can heal matters of this nature. Time, coupled with good counseling can help with a big part. However, before a woman can begin to resolve these problems, she has to be willing to work at leaning how to let go of the past and stop blaming her H for everything. in her frame of mind, I believe she has to have some type of guidance from an unbiased source........and preferably, professional. I don't mean attending MC with her H, either. She first needs help just for herself. If she has a spiritual leader, I would recommend spiritual counseling, b/c these are matters of the heart. Once she begins to deal honestly with her feelings......and is seeking to learn new skills, the couple stands such a better chance at reconciling. And then the couple should attend a good MC or a highly recommended M program, support groups or something that will help guide them through Piecing. Just leaving a couple to figure it out on their own is not the healthiest of choices. The main ingredient there is willingness from both sides.

Wow, gold is right, Starsky.

I need a plan for how I'm going to talk to her tonight. My thoughts:

I take responsibility for my mistakes in the marriage. There are plenty of times I let her down, and I want to do everything I can to make sure I don't make the same mistakes going forward.

Encourage her to find an IC. She needs solid, objective, professional help to sort everything out. This isn't for me, but for her.

She needs to make a decision to commit to working on the marriage with me. If she does that, I will be in it with her, 100% If she does not want to commit, then we have some hard decisions to make.

Rzr,

I would tell W this:

However, before a woman can begin to resolve these problems, she has to be willing to work at leaning how to let go of the past and stop blaming her H for everything. in her frame of mind, I believe she has to have some type of guidance from an unbiased source........and preferably, professional.

Basically, tell her that she cannot continue to pin the blame and her unhappiness on you. Encourage to seek unbiased professional help to sort her emotions.

Don't tell her that you want to do "everything I can to make sure I don't make the same mistakes going forward." Instead say that you would do things differently and have taken proactive steps to address some of the concerns--i.e. your parents.

Bottom line is that you MUST stand firm on not taking the blame for every problem under the Sun.

Originally Posted By: Rzrback

Wow, gold is right, Starsky.

I need a plan for how I'm going to talk to her tonight. My thoughts:

I take responsibility for my mistakes in the marriage. There are plenty of times I let her down, and I want to do everything I can to make sure I don't make the same mistakes going forward.

Encourage her to find an IC. She needs solid, objective, professional help to sort everything out. This isn't for me, but for her.

She needs to make a decision to commit to working on the marriage with me. If she does that, I will be in it with her, 100% If she does not want to commit, then we have some hard decisions to make.

I don't have any particular problem with any of them, but I think more important than the words of the script itself is that she somehow feel a very different ATTITUDE from you tonite. That "Hey, love ya babe, and it'd be really cool if you wanted to work on all this with me, but if you think it's too much work or probably won't work out in the end, that's cool too babe, no harm/no foul and I'm beginning to think you're probably right, and this isn't working for me, either. Just let me know so we can both get on with our life, okay?"

THAT sort of a thing.

In order for this to work, I think she has to have a credible fear of losing you, that she went TOO far. I don't think she's ever felt that vibe from you.

It's time for her to pursue YOU, Rzr. I hope you will come to realize that you're worth that, and that life is too short.

Starsky

Originally Posted By: Starsky309

It's time for her to pursue YOU, Rzr. I hope you will come to realize that you're worth that, and that life is too short.

Bullseye!

Damn...this day just went to s*** More spew, now she's demanding alimony because I screwed her over. WTF? Three days ago we were laughing and joking, things weren't OK but we were trying. Now I screwed her over, I took her love and threw it away, etc etc etc. I screwed her up for life.

She's acting like I did when I would get too angry with her, except I'm staying calm. I DONT GET IT!!!!