I looked it up this time, Old Dog, so I'm pretty sure XXIX is 29.
Maybell XXVIII Nothing much to add but my thread locked.
The dad who just found out about his wife is supposedly going to call me for support tonight after the kids go to bed. If anyone has any suggestions for helpful things to say this soon after BD I'm open to suggestion. At the moment my plan is to listen and validate. I feel badly for the poor guy. (Also slightly worried... he's a very good guy but the last time I tried to comfort a chumped husband was Captain Grabby Hands... so we're going to keep this one a little further away).
Craziness in my town tonight. Two kids shot at the high school my daughter walks through to get to school and a homicide at the college three blocks down the street from my house. Feeling vulnerable.
Very scary Maybell. Hold your kids tight tonight. ((()))
Maybell- Saw this on the news this morning. That would be very unsettling. Hope things are going well today for you and the kids, and that with the morning, you feel a little less vulnerable.
They closed the middle school today too, which I'm very grateful for since D11 was able to come to work with me today. STBX did text to see if we were ok, so I guess he's not a completely lost cause. Not that he cares that we've been without hot water for three days now...
I think I'm cracking. This has been a rough week. Gunfire in my own neighborhood and knowing stbx cares enough to text but not to call, worrying the perpetrators could be hiding in the buildings on my property... Explaining the violence to my kids and telling them they're safe when I don't know that they are and I feel so vulnerable. House issues. Eye infection. Behind on school & Scouts. I feel like Job. I need a vacation.
I'm tired of being nice about him leaving. Tired of being resigned. Tired of filling gaps he has a responsibility to fill. Tired of being the only grown up. Tired of being the one who steps up and does what he's unwilling to do. I want to scream and cry and stomp and throw things. How dare he walk out like this is a high school break up? How dare he not care about the damage he's done for reasons I can't even fathom. How dare he be so selfish and childish? How dare he be so f-ing fragile!!! I don't get the luxury of fragility. How dare he walk away like that??? How dare he be so devoted to his need for cheap sex that he puts his family in this situation.
I am tired of this cr@p.
I hear you Maybell!
While I appreciate that I contributed to problems in my marriage, I did not cheat, lie and run away. But I don't get the luxury of a natural, human reaction to this deep fundamental betrayal of what I held most dear. Instead, I have to be the grown up and somehow turn this sow's ear into a silk purse for my kids.
STBX thinks he's being a great guy by "not fighting" over anything, but at the end of the day I am left as the caretaker for the vast majority of what is left of our life together while he runs away, self medicates with a new relationship and tries to make everything seem ok with a cheap veneer of civility.
I know eventually I will be in a better place than him, but it's cold comfort some days.
Phew! That felt good. Very cathartic! Much like you, I feel ready for a little vacation. STBX will have girls for a few extra days during spring break, I will have to do something then. T minus 54 days and counting!
What a scary situation for you and your kids. And that perhaps intensifies all the other feelings. (I know my anger pops up when my D is sick, for example. Like, I did not sign up to do this alone! And even though I was so unhappy for a long time, I didn't just walk out on my spouse and child! It's maddening, I get it.
Hang in there. All will be well. ..
How dare he, indeed. You succinctly said what I can't seem to figure out how to say.
The injustice of it all is unfathomable.
Today it is hard. Tomorrow may be different. (((hugs)))
Thanks everybody for validating my frustration. This was one of those constant-low-level-frustration weeks that are so hard to explain but hard to live through. It made me feel like I had fallen away from my path and worried that I wouldn't find it again.
House issue is currently resolved. I had to call in help from STBX but not for anything I'd need him for when I have my own place.
i was a TERRIBLE "save my marriage" DBer. When I see what people like T0324 and GoatGal and 25yearsmlc (where is she by the way?) did and do to give their marriages a fighting chance and compare it to me, I wonder how things could have been. I was and am a "pull my own self together" DBer. Which certainly HAS made me a better, stronger, happier person. I have no idea if STBX can see that but others definitely do.
I will be so glad to put all this behind me. I have a lot of positive opportunities on the horizon, just need to get moved past this stuck place. My housing arrangements remain an open concern, but I'm sure that will resolve itself in due course.
For what it's worth, as a "save my marriage" DBer, I admire your "pull yourself together"-ness. You have courage and strength and self-respect. Even in (very understandable) moments of frustration, you look for the positive. You will be more than okay -- you will be GREAT.
Thank you, Elsa
I was thinking about Old Dog's wife shifting his weekend plans so she could "help" buy shoes for his 12 yo son, and it got me thinking about whether I treated H that way during our marriage.
My memories are of me almost always doing those things alone. BUT, when there were weekends when we wanted to get out of the house, we'd look at one another blankly, say what shall we do, and typically H would suggest going shopping with the three kids. Almost always.
So we'd find ourselves in the shoe department at Nordstrom with three tired, bored kids with strong opinions, a huge bill for all those shoes, everybody tired and cranky (especially H and me) and we'd go home and all just scatter when we got home because we were so sick of looking at each other.
My suggestions weren't much better and on the rare occasions we did what I proposed H wouldn't help prepare (for example, checking the diaper bag, dressing toddlers, etc.) so by the time we left it was late in the day and I was GRUMPY.
I'm not sure we had any family fun for six years. Date nights were absolutely no better (and anything more creative than dinner & a movie typically got shot down).
This was partly my fault but he could have been much more of a leader in our home too. He could have had a few suggestions from time to time. He could have engaged when I tried to talk about what kind of a family we wanted to be. He could have freaking put shoes and a clean diaper on a kid before we left the house.
Sometimes it is so frustrating to look backward and see how I permitted us to live. To see how long I was willing to tolerate that shallow, joyless lifestyle. I should thank STBX for walking out. My life is better now.
Maybell - This last post made me wonder if there is an equivalent book for No More Mr Nice Guy for women. As you might have understood from exchanges elsewhere about the book, it's about how expressing our needs and ensuring that they are met actually makes us more attractive and pleasant to be around. I sense that you will not go back to the way you tolerated your H's inadequate behaviour*, it could be interesting to find a framework of just a structured thinking about your new self.
* He might not have realized it but this removal from engagement and responsibility was probably making him unhappy too.
Really good idea for a book Mozza. I think Why Men Love Bitches is probably the closest thing.
Sometimes it is so frustrating to look backward and see how I permitted us to live. To see how long I was willing to tolerate that shallow, joyless lifestyle. I should thank STBX for walking out. My life is better now.
Love this Maybell! You are taking control of your life and will make it a great one I know it! Hugs!
I was thinking about Old Dog's wife shifting his weekend plans so she could "help" buy shoes for his 12 yo son, and it got me thinking about whether I treated H that way during our marriage.
Ruined a perfectly good browse through the shop that did. There and back again in almost complete silence, with me trying not to feel angry and bitter. Thinking the whole while how can I change this bad air and coming up with nothing. Nothing at all except how dare she ...
I didn't get any running shoes either. My heart wasn't in it.
Hmm... what is "save my marriage" DBing exactly compared to "save myself" DB? Does the first one involve more interaction with your S, actively changing things he/she said they were unhappy about, whereas the second is more leaving them alone and changing things about you? If so, then yes, I do wonder if I had tried harder at the first one if things would be different. Then again, I think I was doing that for the first 6 months when I lived at home. It's hard to do the "save my marriage" DB when the other person is making zero effort or has no inclination or interest in making changes (and particularly hard w/out kids so there's no reason to reach out to the other person!)
There is also a 'why men marry bitches' haha
Maybell... Everyone stands for different things and different ways. It doesn't make you any less of a person for doing things differently. I admire your strength. Your ability to decide enough is enough. I can't seem to get there yet. It doesn't make me a 'better DB'er' by any means what so ever.
I looked it up this time, Old Dog, so I'm pretty sure XXIX is 29.
Correct :-)
JUST VENTING.
I haven't had hot water in my house in over a week. I've had 3 visits from plumbers and three from the gas company and the problem is still not fixed. I probably will have 1-2 more visits from the plumber (and have to get the tank replaced) before I have hot water again, hopefully no later than Thursday.
Not one of the plumber visits occur outside of office hours so although I've worked really hard to minimize it, I've missed a few hours of work to resolve this problem by myself, even though the house is still jointly owned. Yesterday I asked STBX to step up to meet the plumbers this week and he declined. He also declined to take the kids for a weeknight this week (hasn't had them for a weeknight since before Christmas). On top of all THAT, he is starting to push back on kid activities that take place on his weekends.
Saturday he DID stay at the house for about an hour during a six-hour window of waiting for the gas company so I could get my hair cut. I asked him if he wanted the rest of his sweaters (about 30 of them) and he said AGAIN, "No, I don't think I want to keep all of them so I'll wait and go through them later." I said (kind of testy) "Or you can take them NOW and go through them at your place." He looked annoyed but didn't push back, so I stuck as many as I could fit into shopping bags and gave them to him.
Then he had the nerve to ask me how things were going on the divorce!!!
I am beginning to loathe the sight of him.
Hugs Maybell
You know I've been there done that with the hot water and during all the D stuff --- I know it suks!!
I'm sorry
Maybell, I'm sorry about the hot water, I've done it before, but only during warm weather (tropical storm or hurricane). Doing it in a cold place must really sukk.
And sorry your H seems to be getting worse each week. Good for you for sending his sweaters packing.
Maybell, the fact that he is declining the extra time with the kids will work in your favor when it comes to determining custody/parenting time. Get your fair share of child support so you can hire a babysitter to have the time you'll need for yourself. The hot water heater is a pain, but look at you taking care of business! You can do it!
PS I loathe the sight of my STBX too -- what is is with these crazy WAHs? Whereas I used to always think he was so handsome, now I fixate on his crummy beard, his tiny little man hands (the man has SERIOUSLY tiny hands), and his bad posture. Easy to leave all that behind!
Maybell-this won't be any comfort in your situation, but I have to tell you that reading through all your troubles with the hot water prompted me to go out and check the propane tank (this was always one of STBX's jobs), and low and behold it was at 10% and I was able to call for a fill in the nick of time. So....thank you..... Wish I could send a hot shower your way!
Regarding your H asking about the divorce -does he have a lawyer, or is he just expecting you to drive the bus?
He has a lawyer AND he expects me to drive the bus. Which I'm doing, as a way of taking back my power. But it still makes me mad. He can't even do that much himself.
I am refraining from calling him names right now.
So glad you checked your propane!!! No cloud without a silver lining, right?
Maybell,
Wow...your STBX is a piece of work. He just won't step up anywhere. Do you still want that trait in a life partner? Methinks not.
One word: pathetic
You can do miles and miles better that STBX.
Wonka,
That might as well be directed ta me.
The answer is really and truely a resounding no!
Mine didn't step up one tiny bit more than he had to, which as he stated something's were not as they were, wasn't much. I suffered needlessly finically in the r as he always stated he was broke.
Oh no! Not you, GG! Maybell's SBTX is pathetic.
Honey, not you.
Nope I ment In reference to me and my h.
(Mmmm perhaps I should be changing that h to something else I don't feel the h)
H refused to help us in a flood, even in an emergency he refused to do the human thing.
Yet he expects me to put his needs before ours (s17 and me) he expects me to give up on any settlement. Even on items he knows and states I own.
I watched a show from the us this morning one of the morning shows with a black dating site coach dude, he coaches people and operates a site.
His statement which was gold.........
Ladies men will pay more if your charge more. Your worth is what you set it at, the more expensive you are the more a real man will pay.
Quality ladies, we are all pure quality. That saving yourself and your fediltity for your h will be appreciated by your future person.
Thanks, Wonka, it's nice to be validated.
Ggrass, your STBX is just flat out mean. But he does appear to have a little energy.
Ugh. My STBX has hired a lawyer just to help draw up the paperwork. I have refused to pay for any fees for said lawyer, but am fully taking advantage of it when possible (i.e. "So what did your lawyer say about how to fill out this particular form..?"
)
In all seriousness, though, my viewpoint is: he wanted it, he can hire the lawyer and pay for it, and I'll get the paperwork done when it's due but on my own timeline. He took a year to decide to actually file, I'm not going to rush on a day's notice to do the next step. My financial disclosure is due 90 days after filing (filing was January 2), I will turn it in this week - whether it's tomorrow or Friday, his complaining about it doesn't bother me.
Only when. It comes to him his money and his wishes does h have any Energy and you know what it was pretty much always like that.
Even when I was in hospital he could not answer my call. He knew I was very ill he knew I was on morphine he knew it was serrious, but at the moment I needed him to be 100% available no matter what, he had a customer emgerency which meant he could not return the call for hours.
That's mean uncaring actions, he was Mia even tho he knew who called. I can cite dozens of those such times none life and death like that, but they were there. He was always going to choose ow.
I just thought for a busy man who did accomplish so much it was the price you paid for his success. I think way different now. If I'm not first, I'm not in. Simple.
Yes, I could have written that last paragraph myself.
I wasn't clear in what I typed, but that hospital story was while we were together in The years he considered perfect. The years I didn't rock the boat so much, stayed low maintence and did all the r lifting.
But maybell I know, I have read what you typed and so many times I felt unqualified to answer anything other than I know, I was you, I was there, I have walked that road.
Trips and events that were about me became about h bad behaivour, lack of support and total lack of emtional contribution. My ll is quality time, but the times I needed him just to be there, do nothing, be nothing just there he didn't get my need.
H could voice his need and expected it done but couldn't get why I would need anything.
Seems in some the idea of reciprocation is sadly lacking.
So he just texted me that he can't take the kids this week but that he'll take them next Monday.
I'm really infuriated that everything has now come down to his convenience and I'd like to say how offensive I find that but I'm so fired up at the moment that I don't think I can do it effectively.
Can anyone offer me a script for how to deal with this? I foresee the next 10 years of my life being me arranging my life to suit his, never able to GAL freely because I always have to accommodate him, and it is breeding ENORMOUS resentment that will make it hard to treat him with detachment.
Too late. I sent this:
It is tremendously frustrating to me that everything happens on your schedule. I have been dumped with EVERY SINGLE ISSUE about this house and children and all you do is nod and say go ahead and pay for it. I have NO opportunity to do things I’d like to do because I have ALL the responsibility that ought to belong to both of us. I have missed a TON of work dealing with snow days, sick kids, and the water heater and you don’t seem to register it at all. You can take them Monday. But you are supposed to commit to an evening a week with them and it would be very helpful to me if you would actually COMMIT to that. If you don’t want to be married to me that’s fine, but I find it very difficult to believe that you have work commitments every single night of the week and no option to say that you need to spend ONE evening with your kids.
I think you're following HPoirot's sitch, right? It sounds a lot like what his WAW is doing to him, regularly changing arrangements. Everyone has told him to set
boundaries. Go to his thread for scripts from the vets.
You might have seen that my take is to be firm and inflexible. He can't take the kids at the agreed time? Well, neither can you. It's his problem during that period. When my WAW left the house, she said she'd need two weeks to get settled in the new apartment. I said "No: you take the kids after one week. They need you. You can arrange their bed in a week." We have almost no re-arrangement of schedule.
I believe that we teach people how to treat us. We set boundaries, we accept certain things, we make them regret treating us a certain way, etc. We don't even realize it. Now, he's testing this new S arrangement: can he change the schedule at will? The answer to him is yes. How will he react next time he has an opportunity that overlaps with his time with the kids? Will he think that he can always change things? Apparently so.
Probably irrelevant anecdote: Yesterday, I was texting a friend and he said his W had put their kids (S5 and D3) to bed, but they were constantly coming out asking for stuff, which the W couldn't refuse them. Well, no wonder they kept on coming out. They don't come out with him because he returns them empty handed.
BTW, is your H successful at work?
We don't have a set weeknight schedule because of his travel. He's supposed to spend one evening with them when he's in town. I have to ask every week if he's going to and he usually says no with a lot of excuses.
Yes, he's successful at work. Very.
Do you have a weekend schedule?
One of the things I read is that kids need a predictable pattern for stability and security. If he can't do weeknights could he do every Friday night?
Rather than asking which night, could you start changing this (sorry if you already are) to...
'I would like you to look after the kids on x night this week'
Or
'If you wish to see the kids this week then it will be x night'
Or
H has a default night and you will only do that for him if he agrees a swap to another night of your choosing.
He might still let you down but their would be no ambiguity about it.
Maybell,
You know I've struggled with this issue too. It was a big one during my M. But one thing I've realized is that I don't *have* to assume that it's on me. And I don't *have* to be mad that he has work stuff come up. What if you said something like:
-- I can tell it's hard to schedule things in advance because your work schedule is unpredictable. But it's important for the kids to have regular time with you, and I need to have regular time as well. The constantly changing schedule isn't working for me. Do you have any ideas for how we can make this work better for both of us? I have some thoughts, but I wanted to hear yours too."
Then, see what he says. Here are some options:
1) once a month set a schedule for the month. If he needs to change it, he has to *request* it. If you are unavailable, he has to figure it out (i.e. find and pay for a babysitter).
2) set a more permanent schedule and ask him to work on building his work plans around his parenting obligation. Again, changes are requested, not demanded, and sitter costs (even if you end up getting the sitter) are on him.
Have you figured out a parenting plan yet? My H and I are working with and mediator. This has helped me let go of resentment because I feel like I have a voice now. Get the financial aspect of who pays for the sitter into the agreement.
Thoughts?
He has them every other weekend.
I'll have to think about your suggestion. I'm not sure how I would carry it out. It's not like he's anxious to spend time with them. He rarely calls between weekends and certainly knows next to nothing about their lives anymore. He said this morning it's because I don't tell him what I need however, neither does he ask. I am not an employee.
Don't harbor resentment, maybell. Don't be a martyr. You are not his employee but you can still tell him what you need. Detach from the emotional part of it.
It doesn't matter how he feels about the kids. My WAW does her 50%, but seems to treat the kids like a task, not like people. She cares for them, keeps them alive, but she doesn't do any weekend activities (D6 told me they spend the entire time in the apartment) and on weeknights she only gets them from school to bed with pit stops at the table and bath. Not my problem: the kids need to see her. And it's her relationship with them. On my end, I try to make the week as special as possible and I reap the benefits in gratitude, love and attachment.
I agree with the suggestion to have a default day (permanent, not just this month) and if he wants to change, he needs your permission or to arrange something. I'd go more with jim0987's suggestion to just state what it is and not go into explanations. "For stability, let's agree on a set day every week. I suggest Mondays." Short works best. Paging Wonka!
Oh, his work doesn't allow such a thing? Tough luck. He's also a dad. It's a consequence of his past choices. If you follow my sitch, you know I've been clear with my WAW last week about the fact that she's living with the consequences of her choices and so am I. If he didn't want to be a dad, he had to think about it 12 years ago.
(Just me, but I'm surprised that he has them only one day a week. I can't recall how you agreed to this, but do you say yes to whatever he offers? Like you're the default caregiver and he can pick and choose wht he feels like doing? As I wrote, I told my WAW: "The kids need you" and that was the end of it. 50/50 it is.)
I find it very interesting that he's such a slacker at home and an overachiever at work. I'll think about it. You should also think about how these people get so much out of him and you get so little. How do they react when he fails them?
Also, Maybell.. look at what your anger and resentment is really about...
What do you think?
My anger and resentment is about him walking away and living like he has no responsibilities outside the office and my sacrificing way more than my share to compensate for him being a self-absorbed jerk. He does not have the means to find a babysitter and is absolutely not above just ignoring that request (or telling me to tell him who to call) if he finds he can't be personally involved with his children.
He does not have the means to find a babysitter and is absolutely not above just ignoring that request (or telling me to tell him who to call) if he finds he can't be personally involved with his children.
He does have the means just zero inclination. Care.com works quite well and I'm sure he has access to a computer. Beyond that, he can figure it out. He's so capable at work, problem solving for a babysitter he can do. The hard part is, stepping back and making yourself unavailable to help so he DOES IT.
You're incredibly brilliant, Maybell, and I don't say that just to flatter you. He's an absolute fool in more ways than one but he's not going to pick up the role of dad if you're always there to supplement, right? This might be something to hash out with attorneys.
Specific days, you get the right of first refusal if he can't directly care for them, if you have other plans, the care of the kids with a reputable care-taker is HIS responsibility.
In my sitch, H is currently technically unemployed so he's around and available quite a bit. This makes child care easier for sure. Once he gets a gig though, and it's only a matter of time until that happens, he becomes MIA immediately. Twenty-hour work days for MONTHS. I am NOT ok with my daughter sitting in a corner of his studio attached to an ipad for all hours of his "time with her". No. He can either hire a nanny, at his own expense (his parents will not be approved by me to care for her as in their care she was once discovered on the ROOF of their home and you better believe that will be written down in a legal agreement that he will have to sign) if I am unable to care during "his time". *I* am not going to hire that nanny. *I* am not going to schedule the babysitter. That's his problem.
If he wants you to "tell him who to call" just say, "the child development program at the local university probably has great candidates". Done. The end.
He has to take responsibility for his choices. If he chooses not to be in the kids' lives in a way that is consistent and predictable for them and reasonable and consistent for you then that is HIS choice that he has to live and reap the consequences of. YOUR power falls in getting out of his way.
He does not need a babysitter himself (by that i mean the position he places you in by telling you to tell him who to call for babysitting services). Treat him like the adult he is.
Maybell- You've gotten lots of great suggestions here. I hope some of them work for you and help. I guess I'm a little jaded and feel like the WAS is going to do whatever the heck they want no matter what we say (even when they "agree" out of convenience and lack of desire to have a discussion). In fact, its sort of become one of the mantras that runs through my head "STBX is going to do whatever the heck he wants, no matter what I say or what he says to me." I recognize that I am fortunate that the one of the few thing my STBX is good about is always keeping the kid commitments (which are only 6 days a month- maximum). However any kind of co-parenting is off the table. He's going to be fun dad, who plays with them the entire time he has them, ignores bedtime and returns them in an exhausted state to school. Why? Because he thinks that is what's important (and who knows, maybe it is). All I can do is mitigate the situation as best as I can by making sure all homework is done before they go to his house and that they get a little extra sleep beforehand.
So- On an entirely practical note - I would make sure to review this with your attorney. If you can foresee this happening in future years (and it sounds like you do), I would hope you can get some sort of "penalty" in your agreement that he has to compensate you for days missed with additional child support (so that you can hire a babysitter if necessary without added financial hardship).
Sorry - I know it's rough.
Maybell,
I haven't deserted you. I've been out of the office, and my laptop at home crashed. It's been nuts around here.
This is quick because it's still nuts.
But just want to chime in. First of all, I don't think your e-mail was out of line. Your H conveniently uses excuses to manipulate people and situations to benefit him. This will probably harm him long term, but it hurts you and the kids in the interim.
I have to say, I think I'd go for full custody of those kids. I hope you're documenting all of his excuses? And I'd also ask for child support commensurate with being the custodial parent with little parenting relief (maybe set it up for 1 day out of 14?). That way, *you* can hire a sitter when you need one, let him pay for it, and offer him a few days here and there when it suits you and the kids' schedules. Understand this one, sweetie. You've already been doing this. Your parenting time has very little structure and commitment to routine. So I'm afraid that I'd have to go for a routine that best suits the rest of the family.
My business partner has a saying that is 100% true and it's constantly running through the back of my mind; it applies to you as well:
The needs of many outweigh the needs of a few or one.
In your case, the "many" are your kids and you; the one is your H. The needs of your family unit need to take center stage. If he's not helping the cause, he's hurting it.
This is kind of the "penalty" I think raliced was thinking. Instead of trying to go get money after the fact, set it up so that you get it up front, and can revise it down the road if he has a more predictable schedule. My guess is all of a sudden, he'll find the consistency. If not? Then you acknowledge the job you're already doing and get compensation for having a complete a*hole for a WAH.
Sorry too.
Maybell,
Look...I think it's time for you to step up and clearly state your needs clearly to STBX in the best interests of everyone. Outline them in a calm and clear-eyed way. Explain how his actions are actually hurtful. He really needs to hear it. Then it's UP to him to step up the plate and take ownership for his commitments.
My anger and resentment is about him walking away and living like he has no responsibilities outside the office
Maybell, your H is a lot like mine. Mine did this while we were still "happily" M. He worked, I did everything else. I've kind of made him step up since we've S. I ask him to do a lot more now. But, he's not the slacker your H is in the parenting department, so all I have to offer you is a hug ((MB)) and a "you go girl" when you have your next conversation with him.
Maybell,
I haven't been on here for awhile, as you know, and I'm just catching up with your sitch. I see that D is imminent, and you're going through all the struggles tangled up with that.
I know you hear it a lot, but you're super smart, very strong, and you will persevere. His loss. BIG TIME.
But you know that.
((((Hugs)))
Your Pal,
The Goat Gal
Don't harbor resentment, maybell. Don't be a martyr. You are not his employee but you can still tell him what you need. Detach from the emotional part of it.
This is good.
Also don't try to explain his sh!t. He's probably caring about them as much as he's able. That may be sad but it is what it is. It's beyond your capabilities to do anything about his level of caring. If you want him to have them a shared amount of time, then say that and mean it.
It seems you let him off the hook sometimes and slide in to 'woe is me.' (he doesn't really care about them, his work interferes) They are his children. He needs to figure his life out so they can be a part of it. People usually only make big changes when it's really necessary. Actually it's usually past necessary.
Don't make excuses for him.
Oh, your thread was all the way back on page 5 or 6! What gives? I'm going to keep bumping it so it's not so difficult to find.
Wow! I consider that growth.
Harder to post now I work, and so much to think about. But it's lovelyto have you back, Labug. :))
First off, thank you SO MUCH to everyone who replied. I had nine people's thoughtful posts to consider so I took the time to digest as well as I could before I started responding. I so appreciate your interest and insight.
It's interesting to me how bent out of shape I was about this yesterday. I solved the water heater problem in a way that made me look pretty good to my boss and still got me hot water so that worked out. I am actually enjoying the kids and selfishly like having them almost all the time. I would very much like to be able to do things in between but their schedules are moving targets too, and they've objected to losing me in the evenings because my going back to work has been a big adjustment for them.
But I feel badly about that. They no longer say they're sad or that they miss him. They don't ask to call him or give me any openings for offering for them to call him. They've told me they miss me more when they're with him for a weekend than they miss him when they're away from him for 12 days. They don't ask to call him. S9 doesn't answer his texts and D11 isn't sharing anything of substance with him (mostly she asks him to buy her apps). S7 just sends emoticons. They're doing great -- behavior, grades, demeanor, etc., all improved since he's been gone (and I got my head around it). But all these rainbows and unicorns can't come without a long-term price. The problem is, STBX doesn't think long-term; he's never had a job longer than three years. He told me at our divorce conversation that he can see staying where he is now for as long as 3-4 years more, which doesn't even get D11 to driving age before he moves away for a job. Trying to get him to understand that his children need him when all the outward indications are that they are thriving with this level of attention from him is pretty much a non-starter. Mozza, he acts like your WAW when he has them, which is even more infuriating given how little he has them.
So it's not just him causing the problem. Some of it is me. There are parts of it that work for me. I just think in this, it would be better if it didn't go that way.
Underdog, the custody thing will most likely go exactly as it currently stands. I discussed it with my L and he already has a plan for making sure the kids and I are provided for in a way that accounts for that.
Labug, you said I tend to let him off the hook and then get frustrated and you are exactly right.
Yesterday: I sent my text as shown above. He answered with a long one about how he has a huge project going on that makes him unavailable. Then says he'd do more to help around the house if I told him what I need. Except that I had -- and he said no. And he drops the kids off on Sunday nights and has never once taken the trash to the curb for me, or ANYTHING small like that. I must make the effort of telling him what I want so he can say no. I pointed that out and objected, told him he was capable of being proactive about caring for the kids at least and he repeats that work has been tough and "it's temporary not permanent." I refrained from saying, "it's been continuously temporary for ten years!" though maybe that would have been more effective and appropriate.
Then he said "I understand you are frustrated and I don't want to fight about it. I'm sorry. I really am."
"I dont' want to fight about it" has been his default "we're done here" for as long as I have known him. Trying to discuss or resolve a problem past "I don't want to fight about it" becomes an abusive effort because at that point he just completely disengages. I am left feeling completely out of options, and if I can't come up with a solution that leaves him out of the equation I feel impotent rage. That usually lasts just long enough for me to figure out how to solve it without him and then I carry on. This has been my MO for years.
I think this situation is a microcosm of how we got to divorce.
I suggest you present him with 2 schedules of your chosing. Let him chose which one you use and stick to it. Give him one week to decide. Give him your list of sitters including their numbers. Kids need stability and consistency. It is time for him to decide what his # 1 priority is. If he choses to work when its his time, he finds and pays for the sitter. If you are tempted to rescue him and let him off the hook, schedule a class or meeting for that time. Every week. I have seen it work. Not only will the children benefit from the structure, but Maybell will benefit from the GAL and a small break.
In my sitch there are exactly ZERO changes. We split time 50-50. The boys show up at my house from school on Wednesday and one week WAW comes at 10 am on Saturday to get them while I am at work, and the next week she comes at noon after church to get them. No contact, no negotiations, no changes, no fuss. On my side of the fence, the boys know that when breakfast is over on Saturday or Sunday, their mom is on her way to get them so it is time to get ready.
Bdub,
It's great when your lifestyles allow it to work out so well.
My H has frequent business trips and work functions that require schedule changes. I have those rarely, but once in a while. How do you handle things like that?
Maybell,
Our issues with our spouse obviously don't magically disappear just because we are S/D (even though they seem to think that's what will happen!) I struggle with this A LOT-- trying to improve communication with someone while not being in a loving R with them, but having such an important job as child - rearing to do together. So so tough.
As we grow, we can use these interactions to test out changes in our own communication skills. .. that is all we can control after all. And in some ways, if we detach, the stakes are not so high. They are already gone, so it's not like we have to be afraid of that anymore.
You can't change or control him. But what about this CAN you change? I wonder if trying out some other responses when he says, "I don't want to fight" could be worth a try? Just to experiment?
claire7: If I can step in: My situation is very similar to that of bdub. Basically, I try to schedule stuff for when I'm available and, if I have the kids, well I just miss some stuff like work functions. I'm a dad, it comes with constraints and work does not always have priority. I've never requested a change (5 months now) but I've just agreed to two changes with WAW because she wants to attend a wedding this summer and because her father will be visiting from abroad at Easter while his business is closed, two important events that can't be moved.
In short, what I'm saying is that flexibility should be minimal. It's no longer about "accommodating" a spouse like it was in a M. We no longer share our lives and the kids need predictability.
Wow. The thought of my H forgoing a work event or sales trip because it interfered with his 2 nights/week with his D... let's just say he has missed MANY of his nights with her and that doesn't seem to be a pressing concern. The work stuff always seems unavoidable. Maybe it is just a factor of where he works and the expectations of his company and his role?
Holding him to it is likely to negatively impact his career. Wouldn't that hurt me (and more importantly our D), too?
It's tricky, I think. ..
Can you really say to your boss, "sorry I can't meet with the client that day because it's my night with my kids"?
Can you really say to your boss, "sorry I can't meet with the client that day because it's my night with my kids"?
Yes, you can. When D6 was born, I stopped the systematic overtime, that is outside of a special event (3-4 times a year). I was afraid it would impact my career, but it actually made m more productive. A year later, I was promoted. It was a very competitive workplace full of workaholics. Productivity is not about the hours. Client meetings are no more mandatory than kids care and they can be moved around. When you D, there are downsides and one of them is that your spouse is no longer there to pick up the slack. I say that as a LBH who has missed important events early in the morning because I had to drop off the kids. That's life and climbing up the corporate ladder to make more money or control more people is not all that there is. I've a very successful career by the way, one of the best among all my college-educated friends.
It's a mindset and I don't expect your H to get it. I would try to explain it to colleagues who would see me (and others) do it and they would say "Yeah, but we really have to meet that deadline." Guess what, it's a made-up deadline and it won't be met anyway because department X isn't done with their review or whatnot. Life goes on.
It come down to boundaries. People respect your time when you value it. I can almost guarantee that when your H is asked to do something on a day he has the kids, he doesn't even consider declining it. He needs to change that balance in his head. The bar for skipping childcare has to be raised much higher.
As I wrote in a few sitches, it's about living with the consequences of our choices. The S is not my choice, but I live with the consequences. My WAW will too and I won't take responsibility or even feel guilty for it.
Hi maybell. I want echo what mozza just said.
I will say that that there were times where I put my work first at times when I absolutely should have prioritised my family and personally I found the conflict between the two really stressful (too much of my self worth wrapped up in my career).
It took BD to make me really understand that I'd been making the wrong decisions (through fear). Sometimes it takes that metaphorical bucket of water to see it though.
You need to sort this for you and your kids, and your H is going to have decide what that means for his future relationship with his kids.
Holding him to it is likely to negatively impact his career. Wouldn't that hurt me (and more importantly our D), too?
Mozza and Jim, I appreciate your perspective. I think there are several of us here that think like Claire. I certainly do. That's what we've been told. Our H's probably believe it, too. It was most likely true at first, and then it became a way of life because it wasn't challenged.
Claire, I think it's tricky, too.
I used to think like that (and it does depend on the employer).
I was fearful that people would think i would have let them down or that they would use that as a reason to not promote me or not give me a payrise and over the last few years that they would use it as an excuse to make me redundant in the next round of cuts.
At somepoint though i realised that the people i work with arent like that and that when it comes to redundancies we've let some amazingly talented and hardworking people go just because thats where we are. I also realised i was over estimating my importance and irreplacability.
So me staying late, or not making an appointment wouldnt make the difference - its about what do i do when im there. Expectations are the problem more than anything (how often do we hear that????). And more seniority nearly always gives more freedom to make time for family
Do they believe it, is it just self aggrandizing or is it an excuse? doesnt matter, it wont change unless they feel it has to.
If you haven't seen it, id recomment watching 'the pursuit of happiness' (2006 film starring will smith) - its based on a true story.
I'll answer more fully later, but I'll just say, STBX is quite high up in his company and certainly has the freedom to spend more time with the kids if he chose to. He chooses not to. Same as he intentionally chose an apartment that does not have space for them (they don't have beds at his place and each of them has a little basket for toys, books, and clothes).
You can smack me around for this if you'd like, but... Is 2 hrs a week really worth all this energy?
Crikey Maybell, I do feel for you. It certainly doesn't sound like he's worth wasting any energy on. Total abdication of any rsponsibility.
I see you've had loads of suggestions which I can't really add to apart from thinking if this isn't working, do something different. I'm afraid I don't know what sort of different. Maybe give up. Maybe I shouldn't say that.
(((Maybell)))
Maybell,
Mozza and the "boys" are spot on. My XH was also someone who would call me at the last minute to let me know he "had" to work late and I needed to pick up the girls at daycare. How many times? Countless. Or we'd schedule a date night and somehow he'd get paged (shows you how long ago that was) and instantly need to show up. OK, he's a rocket scientist. Seriously. But they had on-call schedules, and invariably, the on call person would not answer the page... or the person calling didn't like their answer... or they just felt more comfortable calling my XH in to work. YES, it pissed me off. YES, I called him on it. And YES, I heard all the excuses these guys laid here on the virtual table.
Well, guess what? When we were drawing up a parenting plan, our mediator flat out told him he was going to have to prioritize the girls or pay up. And guess what else? He quit doing this. Sometime in the first year or two of our separation, I commented on it. He had the gall to tell me, "I should have said no all along. The first time I told them to call the on-call person and leave me alone? They told me they were wondering when I'd cut them off. I give, and they keep taking." Maybell, I was pissed.
Then, years later, he apologized again. He changed jobs within the company and commented, "I think a lot of our marital problems were centered around my inability to say no to work issues after hours when it wasn't my job." Ya think?
He's high up at his company too, Maybell. He's been there since 1991 and he flat out won't lose his job unless this Fortune 100 company goes under. He's been promoted, got raises and bonuses, and he works overtime when he doesn't have D17. Otherwise, he leaves when he's supposed to. But it took for our separation for him to get this. I won't say it didn't piss me off, because it did:he had a choice all along. He still works 60 hours a week, but he does it when he's not parenting. If that's how he wants to live, that's fine. It doesn't affect me anymore.
I understand deadlines. I really do. I own my own company and know they sometimes mean my paycheck will be affected. But they are the exception rather than the rule. If you live in exceptions, it means you don't have good time management skills and are probably pretty crappy at setting and enforcing boundaries.
It's a mindset and I don't expect your H to get it. I would try to explain it to colleagues who would see me (and others) do it and they would say "Yeah, but we really have to meet that deadline." Guess what, it's a made-up deadline and it won't be met anyway because department X isn't done with their review or whatnot. Life goes on.
It come down to boundaries. People respect your time when you value it. I can almost guarantee that when your H is asked to do something on a day he has the kids, he doesn't even consider declining it. He needs to change that balance in his head. The bar for skipping childcare has to be raised much higher.
I don't think I could say this better. It's a home run.
My H sees his D for a few hours a week, and when he comes to visit one morning a week before work, he can barely put his phone down. At 7 am. Even though he hadn't seen or spoken to her for 2 full days. What a peach.
Maybell, I'm so sorry to hijack your thread. It's really striking a chord with me, and also helping me detach.
These men don't deserve awesome women like us...
I hear you all. So please understand I mean this question very seriously:
Is it my place to say these things to him? Or do I wait to say it through the lawyer?
I don't feel like I was a truly controlling person in our marriage. Micro-managed my areas of responsibility, definitely. But I basically went along with anything he wanted.
Do I get to tell him to step up and be a dad? Do I get to tell him his priorities are whack?
I don't feel like I do. Partly because he pushes back (like this morning when I said I had a hard time believing he couldn't take ONE evening for his kids and he threw back the "this is temporary" business).
I have a hard time imagining myself saying that to him and him actually changing to go along with my priorities.
It's all in how you manage to state YOUR boundaries.
I'd use words like "I need xxx" and go from there.
"Since we've had kids, you find excuses not to fulfill your responsibilities as a parent by spending time with him. It's been your choice to separate and divorce, and I've accommodated your wishes. However, I now have a problem being the parent who comes to the rescue. By divorcing, you need to share parenting responsibility equally with me. I understand the schedules need to be tweaked when you have to travel, but when you are home, I expect and need you to honor your commitment to parent with me. To be explicit, I expect you to follow through on the schedule we arranged. If this doesn't work for you, let's talk about it. But the days when you say jump and I say how high are over. If you are not willing to share parenting time with me in this manner, please let me know so we can discuss the options with the attorneys."
Put the ball in his court, Maybell. Let him know you are not jacking around on this topic. The state of Maryland happens to agree with your position.
I wouldn't say to him that his priorities are screwed up. We know that already.
You get to tell him that he has the option to create a schedule to which he will commit and follow with all reasonable effort; otherwise, you will have the lawyer represent your interests in this regard. Read: reset custody and child support.
Don't offer commentary or sarcasm to him. I know it's tempting. But until you have some type of dictum, document the times he weasels out on his schedule. Then you have evidence to back up your statements of truth. Facts, ma'am. That's all they want.
You're not micromanaging things, Maybell. You're trying to create structure to a new type of family unit. It's normal.
Maybell, my H is not nearly the slacker in the parenting department that your H is turning out to be. Still, I'm finding that there a limit to his sharing percentage. During this most recent round of calendar shifting, more than once I offered him a "make-up" day for a day he said he couldn't do. He consistently declined. I have tracked his overnights since Day 1 of our S, and he's settling in at 33%. (Only overnights count in FL.) That's the best he can do. And I'll have evidence of that when it comes time to make it all legal. I hope you are doing the same. You can't make him take the kids, but you can make him pay instead.
Yes, I've been doing that. He doesn't keep them overnights on weeknights, only the weekend nights that are his (Friday and Saturday). Once he kept them Sunday and took them to school Monday. He offered to do that every week, last summer. But he goes to work way earlier than they go to school, and also he doesn't have a parking spot for his car, so I think that killed that.
I hear you all. So please understand I mean this question very seriously:
Is it my place to say these things to him? Or do I wait to say it through the lawyer?
Maybell, I have seen it stated many times on these boards that the WAS should "own" their relationships with their kids. It is one of the things I respectfully disagree with fairly frequently. Kids, are after all,
kids, and not equal partners with adults. I guess I'm looking to be an advocate for my children when they need more time with their Dad or if he does something that harms their development. It would be nice to think that he would similarly point out anything I am doing that is out of whack - although I don't see that happening for a long time.
Earlier on your thread I stated my belief that WAH is going to do whatever the heck he wants no matter what I say or do, and I believe that (at least in these early days of separation and divorce). I
know I can't control his actions, but it won't stop me from piping up if its something important about the kids.
Case in point- he returns the kids exhausted (and he has them during the school week). Right now, I say nothing because I personally think its more important that they spend positive time with him. But if it gets to the point that D6's schoolwork is affected, I will certainly have a conversation.
However, in fairness, my STBX has always been a reasonably engaged Dad. You have had struggles with this throughout the marriage, no? You've gotten some great advice from Underdog and I'm sure others will pitch in. I think this will be a long term "experiment and monitor results" project for you to see what potentially might work.
So to answer your question - your lawyer can handle conversations about the proposed custody situation and an appropriate level of compensation for you. I think its still in your court to poke your H with the occasional truth dart about the
need for quality visitation.
I feel for all the kids - I always cringe to see them listed in a new poster's signature along with their ages. It makes me appreciate how fortunate I was to have my parents.
And that reminds me - I just have to pile on with another response about how your H could carve out time from work if he wantd to. My dad was the sole bread winner for most of my parents marriage. He came from nothing and worked like a dog in a fairly high level of management. I vividly remember a "temporary" period when he was extremely busy which he handled by leaving for work at 4:00 am so he could be home in time for dinner and spend time with us after his 12 hour day. There's always a way if your priorities are straight. And sadly right now, your STBX's are out of whack. Even worse, they may always be so. That's why your kids are so fortunate that their Mom's head is screwed on straight.
Is it my place to say these things to him? Or do I wait to say it through the lawyer?
Honest question: What do you want? I lost track. I know you'd like him to care, but what would be a time share that would suit you? Thinking about your needs and that of the kids, of course.
In short, it's not for you to teach him anything. There's nothing to say. It's all your actions. If you want him to have the kids two nights a week, because you need the time off (you do) and the kids need to bond with him, then you set it and become inflexible about it. Make it a 180. From here, he seems to know exactly how much wiggle space he has with you. If he's a Nice Guy, like me, then his skill is precisely to measure this space and make the most of it. In fact, that's probably how he became successful, by guessing exactly what's expected of him and meeting it as efficiently as possible.
BTW, since he's that successful, I'm flabbergasted that he didn't get an apartment with enough space for them. There's something wrong with him. It doesn't seem to be depression. I wish an IC would x-ray him and report to us.
Oh and that comment about "I don't want to fight" is infuriating. What I'll grant him (or DB) is that you appear to "reason" a lot with him, as if you want to convince him of your reasoning. It's a lost cause. Stop explaining yourself, stop seeking his validation of your reasons and feelings. Just tell him what you want and enforce it.
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Just a thought: it's interesting how everyone in this discussion and, to a certain extent, on these boards appear to be involved parents, while so many WAS seem to be detached and uninvolved.
I've got a lot to think about. I want him to be an involved dad. I don't want to lose time or shared experiences with my kids. I want to get more exercise. I love when the kids and I have relaxing evenings. I'm all over the map.
From here, he seems to know exactly how much wiggle space he has with you. If he's a Nice Guy, like me, then his skill is precisely to measure this space and make the most of it. In fact, that's probably how he became successful, by guessing exactly what's expected of him and meeting it as efficiently as possible.
You nailed it. A few hours after the exchange I mentioned I made a pretty big childcare request of him to cover from a day when the sitter can't make it, fully expecting him to say no, and he agreed to meet it. And tonight he called the kids.
So I have even MORE self-examination and experimenting to do.
Oh, and:
BTW, since he's that successful, I'm flabbergasted that he didn't get an apartment with enough space for them.
When he went looking for apartments, he had the choice between the very nice, freshly remodeled two-bedroom he's in (granite countertops, front-loading washer & dryer, etc.) and a much dumpier three bedroom closer to the house and his office. He sent me an email asking which one I thought he should get. I replied, "Well, you have THREE children."
So he got the two bedroom. Which, BTW, costs more. In fact... Since I've been looking around at rentals in my area in anticipation of selling our house, I've discovered that he could have rented a three bedroom HOUSE for less than the rent he's paying on his posh two bedroom pad.
Why am I even wandering around these cheeseless tunnels?
^^^ I'm wondering Mozza's question, too Is this about you feeling like H should be a more involved parent and be spending more time with his kids? Or is this about what you want/need, meaning you need some time alone to recharge/get things done/go out with friends/etc.? If it's the first one, like people have mentioned, that's his relationship to have or not have with them, so no, I don't know that it's your place to say anything about that aspect of it. If it's the second one and it really truly is about you, then I think you have every right to say something (along the lines of the outline Underdog gave!)
I honestly thought my parents would have been D'ed by now (maybe they will when my 17yo sister moves out for college next year, who knows...) and when I was younger and thought about that, living with my dad part of the time never ever crossed my mind. I completely visualized that as living with my mom and maybe seeing my dad at holidays or during the day on a weekend but never pictured myself staying overnight where he lived. He was just not that involved. He tried sometimes but he was pretty clueless (and still is), not to mention he is a member of SAA and would try and talk to us about it even when we said it made us uncomfortable. Sometimes there's just a default parent and the other one doesn't have an impact.. and kids can turn out just fine (well, I like to think I turned out fine
)
*sorry, this is now after your post so may or may not make sense anymore!
Hi Maybell, I'm not sure how much it's on your mind when you think of splitting time with the kids, but don't fret too much about losing time with them. Of course it's not the ideal path we envisioned when we got married and had kids, but you will adjust and probably even enjoy your alone time. Losing half of my time with D2 was almost the end of the world for me last summer. I still miss her sometimes, but it allows me to recharge in my off time and to pursue other interests.
As you know, there are some very wise people here, so keep sharing any thoughts you have on this topic. Odds are, you won't be the only one to learn from them.
And sorry I haven't been around much lately!
I want him to be an involved dad. I don't want to lose time or shared experiences with my kids. I want to get more exercise. I love when the kids and I have relaxing evenings. I'm all over the map.
I know others have said it here before (raliced made an excellent point), but you can't control his involvement for involvement sake. But you *can* state what the kids want and need from him with conviction.
Maybell, I can tell you guys haven't sat down with lawyers. The first thing our mediator told Mr. Wonderful was that if he wanted parenting time, he HAD to have living space that accommodated them. Since we have 2 girls, he had to have a 2 BR apartment - they shared the other bedroom. Had they been a girl and a boy, Colorado would have required him to have 3 BR or sleeping arrangements on a sofa bed for one of the kids in a 2 BR if the kids were older than toddlers. This was non negotiable. And that's when he renegotiated his lease on a 1 BR with his apartment complex for a bigger apartment. End of story. Your H has a 2 BR apt - that's not against the rules, Sweets. But he needs to make it home away from home for them if he really wants to parent.
This early to work sh!t is just an excuse, Maybell. Both my XH and I go to work early on days we don't have the kids the night before. On days we do, we go in a little later but are able to work later because we don't have the kids on consecutive days unless someone is traveling. He can MAKE the time. You both need to get out of the "I can't, because XXX" frame of mind. That's not solution oriented. It's one thing if it's fixed, like he lives in Pittsburgh while you live in Frederick. But stop allowing excuses as your bar. They are limiting AND defeating. And besides that, they allow you to stay stuck in the resentment room.
If he really doesn't want to be an involved dad, there is nothing you can do to make him do it. But you can set it up so that you are compensated for it, and then YOU can make arrangements with a nanny or standing sitter to help you out with your load. I had a great sitter for years. She's still like a daughter to me. She met my now D17 off the bus, got her snacks, did things and occasionally started dinner when I needed to work late. I paid her well for this. She was in college and working as a para in the elementary school, and needed to work when school got out. Without me, she had difficulty trying to find work that would accommodate HER schedule. It worked beautifully for a really long time.
So now that you admitted to wanting all of it, it might be a good idea to back up a little and reevaluate what you have a legitimate case for pursuing. Yes, it would be sad for the kids for them to be the collateral damage. But your job isn't to shield them from experiences, Maybell. Your job is to guide them through and give them coping tools so they can become self-confident and successful teenagers and adults who are ultimately able to have functional relationships with others.
rpp and I are fortunate that our XH's changed their tunes when going through this. But I also have quite a few friends whose husbands really just wanted to check out. And they did. The XBF I had before my XH was the child of such a divorce. His mom ultimately got remarried when he was about 12, and he didn't meet his dad until after he graduated from engineering school. The a*hole only wanted him in his life as an adult. My XBF kept him at arms length, communicated with him, but called him Jerry. NEVER dad. That was reserved for his step dad. He was a great BF and is a good husband and father to his W now. That's because his mom let him know from the get go that his dad's abandonment had nothing to do with him, but was because of a lack of character present in his biological father. He got it. His mom was a special lady - I really liked her moxy. Plus, she danced to Michael Jackson with me in the bars. I thought that was fun.
So be clear. Identify what you want. Then see what you can do to make the plan coherent, logical and reasonable. Oh yeah, and it can only include what YOU can do.
You might also want to rein in all this resentment somehow, Maybell. It's getting in the way of your rational thinking right now. I understand it, but it's a huge distraction when you're trying to find solutions. A vent is okay, but you can't stay in that mode for long. I used to allow myself a full 24 hours. It was plenty. Then I had to put my solutions hat back on and get down to what I could control.
What a great post, underdog!
So...
Task 1: get over my expectations of his parenting. Own myself and let him be.
Task 2: decide how much participation *I* need from him to parent effectively and without driving myself into the ground. Decide how to compensate if he is not going to be a resource in my well-being as far as parenting relief goes.
Task 3: arrange things legally to support Tasks 1 & 2. To the extent necessary and possible, get STBX to agree to these things.
Task 4: execute. If STBX starts stepping up, be appreciative.
Have I got it?
Fabulous!
You're smarter than the average bear.
That first task is crucial, Maybell. I'm going to follow your lead. Very good goal.
I just love this thread. That is all.
Claire, Sorry for the delayed response. Neither of us travel more than once a year for work. We agreed early on that we would each have the first option to watch the boys. However, during her time with the boys she took off for 4 days and went south to tailgate a college football game and left the boys with her mom, so that is out the window. Luckily both our parents live fairly close and are willing and able to help.
Raliced and others:
I too lobby on behalf of my kids. I don't believe in " It's her relationship with them, stay out of it". Right now my kids voice is not heard with WAW. If they have an issue they feel is important enough to bring to me, I pass it on to WAW. There have been a few occasions where it has been successful and a few that have not. At least their voice is heard.
Hey gang,
I think there are different ways you can interpret interfering in the other parent's relationship with the kids.
I advocate letting go of that rope because it was not my place to sooth feelings by covering them up or making excuses or... whatever. I made sure that *I* was the parent who the girls could count on, and that was all I could manage to do back then. They were 5 and 8 when their dad moved out, and in the beginning, he was a total a*hole and decided not to show up to a few events that I guess he figured was more important to me than them. I think he really got this when he decided not to show up to my then D9's award ceremony; her feelings were crushed. I didn't make excuses for him and I just told her that her dad didn't get in touch with me and she should talk to him about it.
She did. She lit him up like a Christmas tree. I think it was a pivotal moment for him, because he apologized to her and never did it again. It didn't require me to ream him. That would have been more of the same - a total waste of time. But she decided it was important enough to address.
The only way I could combat this passive aggressiveness in my family was to allow nature to run its course. I don't (and didn't) operate in this manner, and I made sure that I honored the commitments I kept. It wasn't rocket science. Besides, it was a great teaching opportunity for her to learn how to discuss things that bother her with others. It's a grown up skill that is never to early to set in motion. It's served her very well too. In fact, it was my mission in life to teach her how to be authentic. She's turning 21 next week and passed that class with flying colors. She's definitely smarter and more adult than I was at her age.
So bdub, what would happen if you teach your kids to address their problems with their mom on their own? Sure, she might reject them. But hasn't she already? Then it's your job to teach them how not to use other people as your own bar for self worth and self confidence.
Bets,
That is my goal. I will not continue to intervene forever. With things being so fresh I guess I am protecting them a little. There are certain things, smaller issues, that I will not address. My answer for that is " I am sorry x is happening. You will need to take that issue to your mom."
My hope is that once they learn how to communicate with her on the smaller topics then they can start to stand on their own 2 feet on the more major topics.
Every day I remind myself that I am their rock. I am their consistency and I am a role model for them.
Anybody can answer this, but Betsey, if you're around... Can you remember good times from your marriage? Times when things worked really well?
I'm remembering almost all bad times. When I look back I just see a forest of red flags, and I feel kind of stupid for having been so committed to Mr. Fantastic.
And also I feel guilty for my kids. Because of all the men in all the world and I picked THIS guy to be their dad?
Not feeling down, per se, but wondering if I will pick someone better and be more successful if I ever love again. Also wondering IF I will ever love again. Or if anyone will find me lovable.
Thanks.
Don't beat yourself up Maybell, just wanted to throw in my support, no words of wisdom about how you're feeling.
You will love and be loved again if you allow it. Let yourself heal. You are an amazing woman! (())
Maybell- I'm sure Betsey will be around soon to weigh in.
Personally - Yes I remember not just good times but great times, lots of them, right up until about the time D3 was born and he started the first affair.
Zew said something a few days ago on my thread that really hit home with me - that he would remarry the person he
married in a heartbeat. I'd have to say that's true for me as well.
Am I questioning my judgement - yes, yes I am. I like to think that after this my radar will be a little more finely tuned, but ultimately there aren't any guarantees in life, are there?
By the way - I know your STBX is being a D****e of a dad right now, but that doesn't mean he will be that way forever. He probably won't ever be ideal- but he very well could learn to meet some of their needs. Maybe he'll listen to "Cats in the Cradle" and something will click
It's tough trying to envision the future, huh?
... Maybe he'll listen to "Cats in the Cradle" and something will click
Gulp! Sniff! - I just listened to it.
Anybody can answer this, but Betsey, if you're around... Can you remember good times from your marriage? Times when things worked really well?
When I think about the past with her, it's almost all I think about. Inexplicably, I have regular flashes of a vacation in California a few years ago. I see us looking at the ocean, driving on the coast, walking around LA or San Francisco, a delicious meal at a Japanese restaurant or a fabulous pizzeria. I think of our engagement in Hawaii too (on the beach! she was so happy...). I think of a holiday in Spain that was less successful, just as we were piecing after we came so close to breaking up in 2009. I think of all the ways in which she told me we were together forever. How she'd tell me she was afraid I'd die, the look in her eyes when we got married, the yellow dress she wore...
OK, I'll stop here because I'm welling up, but you get the point. I'm not even making efforts and in fact I wish my brain would stop thinking about her this way. Usually, I'm allergic to thoughts of bad times but I attribute it to my state of denial, i.e. I don't want to admit that S might be a reasonable idea. Your focus on the hard times might be a sign that you're truly moving on.
Yeah, I have focused on the bad times, there is no way stbxh will speak to me, he's still with his a! And he's saying I don't want her via lawyer.
I need to keep forcing that detachment, pushing it further in the past. Or as many times before stbxh will just walk all over me. Even without any r!
I am wanting that power to go away. I don't feel nice stuff for him, but do still grieve the whole r.
For me it was very real and deep. For him just a puddle on h radar.
You know, I really loved my STBX. And I think I love him still and that's why I am so disappointed at how he treats the kids. But when I look backward, I just see ways in which he wasn't engaged. Like during a time that was pretty good in our marriage, before kids, when his parents were coming up to visit a few months after we left their area and I was thinking of all these fun things to do, and he was just nodding and saying "sounds great, thanks for doing that." Or how hard it was to ever get him to plan a vacation or to plan anything at all. I'd suggest doing X and he'd say things like "But I don't know where to park the car for that." And how when I was about to leave for four days (10 hour road trip by myself) to do some work on my graduate thesis, and he didn't bother waking up to say goodbye to me before I left. (He did this to D11 last weekend too when I took her on an early outing on his weekend).
I anticipate someone is going to ask me what made a period of our marriage good and I *think* I would say that it was a period when we didn't have any significant disruptors happening and nothing to fight over and life was calm so it was easier to enjoy our time together. But I would NEVER say that it was because we were doing interesting things, having a lot of FUN, never a time when I felt cherished, supported, or safe. Our best times were just when I was feeling content.
Loving him and having memories of a good marriage to hold on to are very different for me and it worries me a bit.
Mayb, I get that feeing l like stbxh wasnt engaged.
I look back and see so many times he just wasn't engaged, stbxh talked big acted small. I often complained his words and actions were not aligned.
It was his complaint about me, but I feel I did talk commitment I did say where I was and what I was up to day to day. I think part of that was spew, friends often used to see him in places he just never said he was, nor would I expect him to be.
His reason always was they were mistaken, he wasn't there. Once or twice I spring him eating lunch alone out in a local cafe. By the attitude of the cafe it was regular according to stbxh it was a never.
Stbxh stalked my car, Internet places, I think emails. phone.
The phone and email came to light when he made a big deal of trying to crack my passwords, when s17 was using devices without permission. He then started making a bigger deal of my "cheating" which I wasn't but he was.
I did say to stbxh, I'm not cheating unless you have evidence please stop hassling me. He kept on hassling me, then I got sus and started asking him who are you cheating with?
Cheaters accuse, which was how he was behaving.
As I was told by a bloke yesterday, it's very easy to have 20/20 hind sight.
Seeing what I see now really does make better sense in hind sight.
Yes looking at what happened and how it went down can help you to be more aware next time. Helps you take action before things end up in flames.
Will you want to be with a man like stbxh, who didn't engage?
It helps you to know what you want. Where your bounderies lie.
I want someone who is a hell yes person.
Not a hell yes, then later resent you.
Later expect pay back for more than they gave.
Later hold you accountable for any failure they make.
Maybell, I remember plenty of good times with my W, where we would laugh and joke around, I look at old pictures of us and see how happy we were. I often question where it went so wrong and why. I do wonder if she looks back and recalls the same memories i do or if she looks back and only remembers hurt and regret.
Cats in the cradle has always been one of my favourite songs. My dad worked in sales so he was often gone 8+ months of the year. The song really hits close to home for me. Turns out he had been having an affair on my mom for 7+ years before he came clean last christmas and said that would be the last time he was coming back. Kind of ironic how much my W despised my father for what he had done and then less then 6 months later she does the same thing.... Well minus the other family.
Happy VD, all! I've been out all day and finally made it home.
1) Because it's VD, I understand this question today.
2) Yes, I remember lots of good times where things clicked. I also remember times when they didn't.
3) It's sometimes easier to dwell on the yucky when you're where you are emotionally. That's ok.
4) I was really content remembering the less than lovely. Then one day my oldest dragged out family movies. I saw for myself that we had happy years.
That being said, they're snapshots in time. We wouldn't have loved them if there hadn't been love. Don't do what they do and rewrite the past.
Tomorrow is a new day. You can create great moments on your own. Isn't hat empowering?
You're loved folks. Just ask those who are there for you every day.
Well, my VD went without anything from my husband, who is filing for divorce. I had an emotional affair out of desperation and vulnerability. Slowly progressed from friends to crossing the line. We could talk about everything. Now, he wants D but I dont. Please have you come across a case like this on the website? Dues the 180 work on this situation? Please advice.