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How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave

Posted By: HPoirot

How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 01/28/15 09:58 PM

My journey so far... http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...rted&page=1

Right now I'm in a better place than a few weeks ago. I'm feeling OK emotionally. Ups and downs are much less severe. I still have to really GAL and exercise and eat right like I did before moving to the condo.

S12 is also doing OK. He's being extra helpful and extra loving to me today. He still has sad moments and mild panic attacks in the evening.

I put my wedding ring back on as a recommitment to keep the road home paved smooth. What that means to me now is to get great at being cordial to XW, to do something interesting for GAL, protect my PMA, and find/do something that gives me a sense of purpose and excitement in my life. That last is most important as I feel tired most days and I don't leave the condo except for errands.

On Monday my XW texted "I think of you. I miss you too. And I worry about you." I let that get to me emotionally. It was a good and painful learning experience. The pain wasn't nearly as bad as before so I am on the road to detaching.

While R is wishful thinking today, I do have faith it's possible and do visualize it daily. I have a specific vision of her and I sitting in the MC's office. I see us talking about our R. It makes me smile.

Listing some positives... XW would love me to be friendly and collaborative with her. She would love to have family events. She would love to talk with me. Would probably love to hang out. The only thing stopping all those things is me not being or feeling at all friendly.

From my actions she believes that I hate her. At some point, like the DB Coach suggested, it would be good to change that by being open to her asking me to do these things. I saw in the Denver_2010 thread how he did make himself available to hang out with is W even while she was seeing someone else. My XW feels she's met a soul mate b/c she feels heard and valued and seen. At some point, I'll have to be less hard line and do this.

For now, I'm standing firm on paying only my part of our joint bills and on not having my son away from me for entire weeks.

This is the text message I want to send to my W...

Hello XW. I got your text about school tuition and S12's new schedule. I paid the $X amount we discussed and will pay my part of the January payment, $Y, with my next paycheck. Also, how would you feel about a 4 day split schedule for S12? Thank you XW

Friendly but firm.

Can I do better than this?

Moving forward... I'm focusing on really liking myself and my life. Rediscovering how to do that given all the gifts I have.

So far, I've seen IC and got ADs. Made a huge difference in my life. There's so much more I can do to be a man only a fool would leave. Next is financial repair, fitness GAL, some new clothes, and fun GAL.

I have time. I can do it.
Posted By: Sotto

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 01/28/15 10:07 PM

"She would love to have family events. She would love to talk with me. Would probably love to hang out. The only thing stopping all those things is me not being or feeling at all friendly."

Hi HP, I don't think the above is just about you not being or feeling friendly. For me this is a boundary issue. Soonish after BD, H suggested we still meet up as a family and do things with SS. I said no, I don't feel able to spend 'family time' with you whilst you're having an A with someone else. Luckily for me, H's XW and I get along well, and she has been keen for me to stay in touch with SS.

I think your message is fine - but I find the 'thank you' at the end a little curt. Might you want to soften it to 'thanks'...
Posted By: Karma12

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 01/28/15 10:59 PM

Hi Hp, Mention to your Dr. about your feeling tired all the time. It may be a side effect from your AD. You want to feel calmer and more even keeled but not to the point you feel like a wet noodle that has no drive or energy.

I find telling myself that no matter what happens. I will be ok. I am keeping busy and exercise really does help. It releases those natural endorphins.

There are ways to be friendly and courteous without allowing cake eating. I think saying hello and goodbye. Responding reasonably to texts ( as long as they are about S) just generally showing the same respect you would any other person you would encounter in your day are a good place to start. Drawing boundaries if the convo or text goes into more personal areas leaves room for cake eating.
Posted By: TenBook

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 01/29/15 12:41 AM

Best wishes to your S12. Breaks my heart to hear it.
Posted By: HPoirot

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 01/29/15 02:24 AM

Hello Toots, Karma, and vasapro. Toots and Karma you are right... I too believe I can't do buddy buddy family event stuff with her yet. Not just because it's pursuit if I initiate it and wet noodle if I accept her every request to talk... but mostly b/c I'm not ready to yet. I've let myself slide into a sad daddy demeanor over the years. I'm still too much like the HP she left.

As I uncover and show my MOAFWL side, I'll grudgingly start to accept 1 or 2 of her efforts to talk and get together. Then I'll be warmer... only when she initiates. I'll be otherwise to busy to deal with her and her drama.

For now... yes her and her drama I keep firmly outside my boundary.

...

I did send the text to XW. She replied she preferred the week on/off schedule b/c stability for S12 but we'll try the 4 day schedule.

For the tuition. At first she thanked me for updating her on my payments. A little later she said we need to talk. She has more expenses and student loans she said. We need to make another arrangement for the tuition. She already agreed to pay her percentage of the tuition. It amounts to about a quarter of her take home pay. My part is also a quarter of my take home pay.

Before all this happened, of course I was happy to help her pay her student loans. Even after BD, she planed to be nice enough for me to keep paying her expenses. That is part of my problem with her now.

Now, of course, I'm not going to pay her expenses. Only S12's. She will not have enough to pay for the apartment she wants, her car, her student loans, her part of the taxes, and her part of the tuition.

I'm just going to keep paying my part of the joint expenses. I did not answer her follow-up posts saying we need to talk.

So, she may start to say I'm ruining S12's life b/c I'm not paying her part of the tuition... essentially paying her student loans.

I'm not sure the best way to handle this. She doesn't want to work on our M yet she calls me everyday for help b/c her plans for me didn't work.

She doesn't get my help anymore.

Am I wrong?
Posted By: nit84

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 01/29/15 02:57 AM

Just a warning HP,

I like you paid my share of the Marital expenses even while not living in the Marital home. Once my W figured out I was only paying 50%, Which I thought was fair since I was not living in the home at the time, It took 3 months for her to discover this, She became irate. I moved back home 3 months later

She then L 'd up after another 6 months of this "arrangement" after that she went to court to have me pay Spousal Support and even though she was still living with me she was awarded a monthly sum because she made less than me.

That isn't the bad part. The worst is even though We were now "equal" in incomes the court ruled she was only responsible for 30% of certain household bills and none of the joint Credit card debt. I will get credit for the portion of credit card debt I paid that was hers but not until there is an settlement agreement or an actual Equitable Distribution Hearing. This has been like this for 9 months now and it is getting tight money wise for me. I am not sure of my W money sitch because we don't talk. Now that she has moved out she is not paying anything at all.


I guess what I am trying to say is see an Atty so you are protected Financially.

I feel like I have done everything I can to protect myself but it doesn't always go as anticipated. It gets frustrating.

We,as LBS, don't need any more things to think about than we already do.

Spousal Support is totally different than Alimony. My W is not seeking any alimony after we D if we do. Spousal Support is paid till the D is final.

My W seems to be dragging the process out to obtain as much money as she can knowing that once we are D the money flow stops.
Posted By: Karma12

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 01/29/15 04:16 AM

Hi HP,

Yes pls do get legal advice. In court the judge wants the child to have the same lifestyle in both homes. Usually that means child support. Best to go for a consult. They courts care about what is best for the child. They don't care so much about who did what to who.
Posted By: HPoirot

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 01/29/15 04:27 PM

Just a quick rant. As her apartment moves nears, her contacts have picked up again. Texting me right when I wake up saying... "We really need to talk." Likely about how she can't afford her part of S12's tuition. Then VMs and a text about accessing our storage unit, asking to pick up S12 from school today so she can spend time with him, and questioning the 4 day split S12 schedule she already agreed to try. Every time asking me to call and talk. Every time talking like she expects me to be ok with all of this.

I feel like telling her I don't want any if this. I know not to show her pain or anger. But acting like destroying our family and finances is just business is hard and stupid.

Stepping back and thinking about it, this is her usual pattern when she gets anxious and I don't respond to her. She will pepper me with questions starting with what she really wants to know (me paying all of the tuition) and then ending with something I care about (s12s schedule). Then when I contact her about the last thing, she'll bring up the first thing. Ha... That's why she asked to pick up s12 today ... So I would respond and then she could follow up immediately with a phone call which is exactly what she did.

It's good that I stepped back b/c I was starting to allow some upset feelings. When it comes to her, I must remember to view her from afar. To not get sucked into her drama. I've made my positions plain and owe her no explanations. I must keep in mind she will not acknowledge my feelings about any of this. I just let go of my need for her to care about my feelings. This is where I am in my life and I'm in a great position.

Thank you for helping me think this through.

Just keep going.
Posted By: LITB

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 01/29/15 05:03 PM

HP,

You had mentioned that you consulted with a L in your last thread. Can you share with us what you learned?

Are you looking at 50/50 shared custody? From what I gather, your state does not fall beneath the "no fault" umbrella? Did your L run the numbers for you, based on what you know(Your income, her income, insurance, etc.)?

When you are armed with this information, it will help you to deal with her more calmly.

We shared 50/50 custody. One week on, and one week off. We exchanged our children on Fridays after school. That worked really well for us, all things considered.
Posted By: PatientMan

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 01/29/15 05:28 PM

HP, are you familiar with the castle and squirrel analogies?

-PM
Posted By: HPoirot

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 01/29/15 06:34 PM

Hello LITB. Yes my consultation with an L was at the beginning of all this. It was mostly on my ability to leave with my son to go to the condo and taking our family car with me. On money... we live in a fault state. I can file for an immediate D for adultery. I can also block some of her attempts to get money from me for alimony. Child support numbers I ran on an online calculator. If I remember correctly, I would give her $800/month if she is the primary for S12. She would give me $500/month if I'm the primary. That is based on her base salary. She does freelance work which can intermittently bring in as much as $1500 gross in a month.

Hello PM. Yes I am familiar with the castle analogy. Working to enjoy my own picnic consistently.

I'm not familiar with the squirrel analogy. It's like the feral cat analogy? Just stand still and look unconcerned at let the cat come to you.

It's hard at times like today. None of this is what I want. Right now I want to call her and tell her this. I don't want to hear her say how hard all this is on her and how I need to be flexible. Even so, I know not to do that and I know my feelings don't matter to her. I know what I must do to successfully DB. GAL, 180, change, love myself, grow my real PMA.

At least I've put myself in a position where she is more respectful. I communicate politely. I don't respond to demands or rudeness. And I really don't want to give her any more money. If I gave her $800/month it would very nearly cover her part of the tuition.

We'll see what she does next. In the meantime, back to work.
Posted By: PatientMan

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 01/29/15 07:30 PM

I haven't heard of the feral cat version, but it sounds the same. Here's the squirrel:

Originally Posted By: AnotherStander
"If you try to feed a squirrel by hand, you have to hold perfectly still. It will slowly come to you, but even if you don't move, it will sometimes get scared and retreat. But it will return and get a little closer each time. If you get impatient and make any move towards it, it will quickly run the other way and the entire process starts all over again from the beginning. But if you remain patient, it will come closer and closer until it will finally reach out to you."

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2420056#Post2420056


Both the squirrel and castle analogies are good visualizing techniques for me. Just be careful you don't get caught muttering something like "she's a squirrel, she's a squirrel, she's a squirrel" or "she's in the castle, I'm on the blanket; she's in the castle, I'm just FINE with my picnic". People might think you've gone mad.

-PM
Posted By: HPoirot

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 01/29/15 09:03 PM

Thank you PM for the squirrel analogy. Yes it is helpful to think of my XW this way. But I'm finding thinking of her and any possible R at all is harmful.

Though this has been far far far from my toughest week so far, this was still a learning experience with her increased contacts.

So I'm working harder to get to that place where she occupies the tiniest sliver of my life.

Still need to find and do something I can feel passionate and excited about. It's so mandatory for me b/c again I'm feeling temporarily a little down.

It seems I must completely let go of any thoughts of R. Really really really focus on making a fulfilling life for myself.

I have an IC appointment tomorrow. My assignment is to have something on my calendar to do for fun and to meet new people. I'll come up with something.
Posted By: Sotto

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 01/29/15 09:15 PM

Have you looked at 'meetups' HP? I haven't been to any, but I think the idea is great - especially if you live in a larger town/city where there are plenty of groups to choose from.
Posted By: LITB

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 01/29/15 09:31 PM

Originally Posted By: HPoirot
Now, of course, I'm not going to pay her expenses. Only S12's. She will not have enough to pay for the apartment she wants, her car, her student loans, her part of the taxes, and her part of the tuition.

Have you conveyed this to your W? I am guessing that you haven't, given that she wants to talk.

Your son's schedule and finances should be at the top of your "to do" list. Once this is established, it should reduce her contact. At least in regards to these issues.

This isn't going to be easy. If it were, it would have already been addressed. These 2 issues stir up some strong emotions in both of you, and we'd rather avoid conflict. You will continue circling these issues, until they are addressed.

You will need to cross this bridge at some point, whether you like it or not. IMO, the sooner, the better. The less ambiguity, the better.
Posted By: Wonka

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 01/29/15 09:33 PM

HP,

Sandi, Starsky, myself and other posters have hammered at you to get the schedule set in place and work out your finances several weeks ago. What's stopping you from making those critical moves?
Posted By: Vanilla

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 01/29/15 09:51 PM

Originally Posted By: Wonka
HP,

Sandi, Starsky, myself and other posters have hammered at you to get the schedule set in place and work out your finances several weeks ago. What's stopping you from making those critical moves?



Wonka

If I am understanding correctly W current living arrangements are difficult and S12 gets distressed by going to his aunts which affects his schooling. If I were HP I would wait until W is settled so S12 has stability. Then HP can really insist on a schedule. It is only a little time until that day. I think that is sensible stance but maybe V is a little soft too.

S12 needs to be introduced to W new home so he will settle there.

The finances though, that I 1000% agree.
V
Posted By: LITB

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 01/29/15 10:24 PM

I forgot about the whole living situation. Since she is about to be in her new apartment, it might be possible to group them into one conversation. The reasons are twofold. One, to avoid having to have 2 difficult conversations. Two, because the schedule is tied to the finances if/when it comes to child support.
Posted By: HPoirot

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 01/31/15 04:16 AM

Hello Toots, LITB, Wonka, and Vanilla.

One of the first things I did once S12 and I got to the condo was to communicate to W how our joint expenses could get paid. Basically it was how we've always done it... based on the ratio of our income. She agreed to pay her 35% of joint expanses, mainly S12's tuition, twice via text. Yes it was not written or formal. Even so, she has complained since that she can't afford what she's agreed to.

Same with S12's schedule. We have always had a set schedule on an on-line calendar. W has changed it at least 3 times as S12 staying at her aunt's home was difficult.

W getting her apartment may not change any of this. At first she said she would have her own place January 15. Then she decided, without telling me, she would wait until the end of February to get a place. Then, b/c of S12's discomfort with the aunt's place, she said she'd have her place on Feb. 9. Now tonight, I find that has changed again...

Last week, after W finally saw her revised plan to keep S12 at her aunt's house would not work, she offered to take care of S12 weekend days until she got her apartment. I would have him all nights. I was fine with that. I am happy to have S12 and would have him everyday if I could.

Today, I check the on-line calendar. I see she has noted this weekend she'll be out of town visiting her family. She had mentioned planning it a while ago and S12 mentioned it yesterday. I thought it strange she did not visit S12 to say good-bye before she flew out. She also did not directly tell me she would be gone this weekend. No problem, I'm flexible.

Then I saw she marked next weekend also out of town. She did not include in the calendar entry where she will be. She did not tell me or S12 about this at all. Did not ask if I had plans that weekend. Said she would be taking care of S12 on weekends. I decided that was not right.

I texted her. Said I saw she expected me to take care of S12 2 weekends in a row. Reminded her she said she would take care of S12 on weekends. Asked her can she make other arrangements. Asked in advance if she could take a weekend after she says she will have her apartment as I plan to attend the Essential Experience conference. Very polite.

She replies she is already out of state. That she can't reschedule next weekend. Apologizes for not asking me about it. Says we can talk about her work travel schedule when she gets back.

I reply and say it was inconsiderate for her to tell me she would take care of S12 weekends when she knew she could not and to not ask me what my weekend plans were. That S12 misses her (IC told me to tell her this today as she has not seen him much this week). That I can be flexible if she travels for work or family. That, if she can't be with S12 next weekend, to tell me the full details of her work trip over next weekend. If she can't, S12 would be ready for her to pick up both days at 10AM.

She replies that she will call me.

I reply... "No need to call thank you. Just be there for S12 like you said you would next weekend. Thank you."

She then blows up my phone with calls. I do not answer as I am busy running errands and parenting... taking S12 to his Basketball game.

I glance at a voice mail transcript from her. She explains her trip next week as a work trip with her boss to an event on the West Coast. Gives me the details. That she feels honored to go and didn't think to tell me the details. She explains how she understands where I am coming from and she was wrong and won't make this mistake again. She says how wonderful I've been taking care of S12 so much. She offers to take S12 for the majority of time when she has her place on the 15th... no wait the 17th she says. (Last week is was the 9th.)

She then texts... She's going to try to come back home tomorrow. She'll check the price of changing her plane ticket.

(She just flew out to Texas today.)

Then she texts... "HP all I want to do is make this work for you. Maybe we can talk about the schedule soon."

I don't reply to that.

I want to reply...

"W... Nothing you have done is making this work for me or S12. You have made schedules you fail keep... agree to pay your part then say you can't... agree to take care of our son then fail to show up. This is inconsiderate of you and cannot continue. Expect me to hold you to the agreements you make. No exceptions. Thank you."

I don't think these truth dart type texts help though.

Taking with the IC today, she made it plain I have to hold hard boundary lines like this.

I have told W about my preference for a 4 day split. I will not be away from my son for a week at a time. There's nothing else to talk about.

She cannot ask me to cover for her time with S12 without asking me and giving me a good detailed work or family reason.

If she has money for plane tickets, multiple hotel stays, concerts, and $300 worth of sneakers... she can pay her part of tuition every month on time.

No exceptions.

I don't know if this draws her closer.

I do know this is going to happen.
Posted By: Squiggy

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 01/31/15 05:05 AM

Honestly, HP, the more I read of your thought process, the stronger I see you becoming. Like the others have mentioned, I seriously would consider following along with what you just posted. Let her handle living on her own without you being there to save her financially. Keep in mind, I fully understand that S12 is at the forefront of your mind, and you want to make certain he is fully cared for. At the same time, you have consistently been doing your best to keep him safe and secure regardless of what she has been up to. Just some food for thought.
Posted By: Karma12

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 01/31/15 08:23 AM

You are getting stronger Hp. You are holding her accountable to her responsibilities with your S.
Posted By: Dawn70

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 01/31/15 04:48 PM

Hi, HP! I have been out of town and finally catching up with everyone. I admire your strength in how you respond to your W's texts and such. My XH rarely contacts me, but when he does, I always struggle with what to say or whether to say anything at all. Your posts have been very helpful to me and I thank you for that. smile
Posted By: HPoirot

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 01/31/15 05:43 PM

Hello everyone. Thank you for the kind words of support. I think too that I was right to hold her accountable for her promises.

I see now very clearly she agrees to things without thinking when she feels trapped or knows she's wrong. When she agreed to take S12 on weekends, it was right after S12 had been yelling at her about fixing her lies and coming back to us. She just knee jerk reacts to things and digs her hole deeper.

Like this morning... I sleep late. When I wake up, I see W has tried to call me 3 times. Her VM says she has been trying to call S12 but he has not picked up. She says she is worried sick and doesn't know what's going on and wants to call the condo front desk or the police to make sure he is OK. She asks for me to please text her or have S12 give her a call.

I sigh. Go to S12 who has been awake. Ask him to please plug in his phone. He does and she calls.

Later she texts me... "Thank you for making it possible to talk to S12 and for next weekend." I haven't agreed to anything about next weekend. I don't see why it takes all weekend to attend an awards banquet. She will have to explain that to me.

Funny how I thought I was going to take a break from my W and this board for awhile.

Regarding my M and R... I don't know if what I'm doing is working at this moment. I read other sitches here where the LBH is having good contact with the wayward W. Going to lunch... family time... good interactions. I see Jefe's W is asking what a new M might look like. I feel very happy for his apparent progress.

I feel like I'm battling my W. She threatens again to call the police. I've kept S12 95% of the time for over a month after she let me take him from our home... got him to and picked him up from school, and basketball, and guitar practices on time everyday... washed and ironed his clothes... kept him entertained and fed and happy... paid my part of his tuition bill as I promised... and she has threatened twice to call the police on me. This while she is out of town when she said she would spend time with S12 on weekends. This while she pays nothing but spends money on trips and hotels. This while she's tearing apart her family.

I'm feeling hopeless about my M again. Not sad or sick or anything like that. Just feeling this is stupid and my W is manic.

I was just watching a documentary about Lance Armstrong. How he was able to boldly lie to the world and then even now feels justified and a victim.

It reminded me of my W. How even now she feels a victim of all this while continuing to hide truths and even lie about her situation and what she's agreed to do and pay. Saying all she wants is for all this to work for me. What a ridiculous thing for her to say.

I know my treatment of her must get better and more cordial. I know it's right to pull way back from her and let life show her the consequences of her actions. I know she's an anxious person who is going through a hard time and I need to be the lighthouse for her. I know I'm only 1.5 months into our physical separation. I know her saying she thinks of me and she misses me even after all that has happened could be a tiny baby step.

But can a really have faith in a new M with this person from this point? I know I would be 100% committed to building a new R with her. I've learned so much. I'm not even really angry anymore. I'm on my way to forgiving her.

On the good side... I've not yet really shown her anything extremely new about myself. She already knows I'm a great dad and am more than able to live on my own. That was actually one of the things she said a while back... that if something ever happened to "us" that I would probably not care that she was gone.

I guess by cutting her off so extremely, I'm showing her what she expected... that I don't love her and think little of her. She wants someone of high value to value her and hear her. I can't do that while she thinks I'll say nothing while she just leaves town without clearing it with me first.

I want to do better over the coming months to create a possibility of my family coming back together. To pull way way back from her while showing that I am a man with options.

Right so I'm back to simply being cordial and GALing and feeling and looking my best.

Going out now with S12 to buy a new pair of dress shoes. When W met me, I had a couple pair of $500 fine Italian shoes. I love dressing like a big success but now I dress like a computer hacker who works in a robe all day. I don't even own a suit that fits anymore. Time to change that if I'm going to attract a high value woman again.

This should be fun.
Posted By: SunnyB

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 01/31/15 06:02 PM

Originally Posted By: HPoirot
I read other sitches here where the LBH is having good contact with the wayward W. Going to lunch... family time... good interactions.


HP, you may or may not have been including me in this group, but it's true. We do have a lot of pleasant contact, lots of family time. But it doesn't change anything. He still lives in his own apartment, we still shuttle our child back and forth, he still is breaking his fidelity vows. When he knocks on my door, it's with every intention of leaving in a couple of hours.

Yes, it's probably more pleasant my way than yours. But it doesn't change the end product. So hang in there.
Posted By: Karma12

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 01/31/15 07:49 PM

HP,

I think her saying she was going to call the police because she was so worried is her own guilt talking. She knows she has not been the Mother she should be and it probably makes her feel better when she says she was really worried and going to call the police. To her she could say to herself see I'm a good Mother. It's really not about you or the job you are doing with S. iMHO. In fact she obviously trusts you are doing a good job with son because she is leaving him with you 95% of the time.

I think your plan to dress for success is a great idea. It will do the world of good to look in the mirror and see yourself looking your best. It is more than depressing to see your self wrapped in a robe all day. A lazy Sunday is one thing but all week is unhealthy. Project what you want to be and where you want to be. It's a positive step. Happy shopping.
Posted By: sandi2

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 01/31/15 08:08 PM

Quote:
I guess by cutting her off so extremely, I'm showing her what she expected... that I don't love her and think little of her. She wants someone of high value to value her and hear her.


You know what I would say about this, right?

Quote:
I want to do better over the coming months to create a possibility of my family coming back together.


How would you create a possibility?

I know you are still on a roller coaster b/c one time you talk about moving forward and make a life without her b/c you can't be M to her as things are. You start using firmer boundaries. Then you start beating yourself up.......even though she is totally out of line.....and you fall into your own victim pit. Now you say it's up to you to "create" a possibility of your family coming back together. Did you not try to do that when you still living with her? Just asking.

I have asked you several times if she has always been this irresponsible, and wishy-washy on everything around her. I know being a WW can intensify this behavior, but were you and S12 constantly having to readjust your lives b/c of her? If you were, then nothing has changed in that department.

I have to wonder when you are pointing your fingers at yourself and talking about getting your family back..........are you seeing that picture with your W as she was in the past before she became wayward? HP, she has not changed.

I see LBH'S wanting their WAW back at almost any price. But I don't see many of them say they want her as she is now. It's as if they think she'll automatically change back to her old self again. That is why I have asked you how much of her actions are the same as she's always had. (And I apologize if you have said and I missed it or have forgotten.) Have you always had to rescue her? Has she always expected you to bend to accommodate her? Has she always been bad to make agreements or promises, only to break it time and time again? And.........would you take her back if you knew she would never change (minus the OM).

HP, what are you willing to live with, if reconciliation is possible? We do a lot of talking about the LBS changing, and not enough talk about what the WAS needs to do to make it work again. I am pretty sure you would insist on her ending contact with OM, and things along that line. However, that has not come into your conversation much lately (which is good), but it is her unwillingness to stick to what she says she'll do. That seems to be the sore spot for you (and who wouldn't get fed up?), so will she stop that behavior pattern....or could you live with it for the rest of your life? When you see the "picture" of your family together again, how she is acting on a daily bases in that picture? Not what you dream about, but on what you know about her. IMHO, that is the decision you need to consider at this point. You are the only one who can answer the question. You are the one who knows her. Do not confuse your hopes by being completely unrealistic. I am not saying you are or aren't. I just want you to keep a clear head and thereby having a clear vision.

Everyone would want to reconcile if the spouse became what/who we wanted, right? You may, or may not, decide to move forward and be happy while she either becomes someone you would love to live with........or you may decide to take her as she is right now, without any expectations of her getting better. Perhaps that choice would give you a better perspective.

Of course you want to be a man that any woman would be a fool to leave. In reality, there are a lot of fools in this world. frown. Don't lose your own self worth and core values. Don't sacrifice your own happiness and love out of what you see as being that man, okay? You are seeing her wanting a H who values her and will listen. Fair enough, everyone wants that much. But you get down on yourself and get all out of balance and don't think about what you deserve. Don't you want a W who respects you, be your lover, and will be an equal partner in life?

I am not trying to get you to decide one way or the other. I just want you to keep a clear vision and decide what is best for HP.

P.S. You are still allowing what she said about missing you to weigh too heavy on your mind. She just said it that once, that I know about, but you continue to make reference to it. You were the one who made it into more than how she meant it, IMO.. She "used" it, HP. Now you need to get past it and stop lingering on it. Can you do it?

((HP))
Posted By: nit84

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 01/31/15 08:37 PM

Great words Sandi, We can all use what you said to help us.

Sorry for the Hijack HP, Hang in there
Posted By: sandi2

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 01/31/15 09:35 PM

Thanks Nit.
Posted By: HPoirot

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/01/15 09:11 PM

Originally Posted By: sandi2
Quote:
I guess by cutting her off so extremely, I'm showing her what she expected... that I don't love her and think little of her. She wants someone of high value to value her and hear her.


You know what I would say about this, right?


Hello Sandi. Thank you for your thoughts. I believe you would say I'm being ridiculous and there nothing else I can do at this point except move away from her. I can't be the one who listens to her right now. I can't allow her to lean on me emotionally.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
Quote:
I want to do better over the coming months to create a possibility of my family coming back together.


How would you create a possibility?


Yes I did do 180s and good listening and acts of service when I was living with her. She said I was kind and understanding. And that didn't change her lying or disrespect or anything.

From here there's nothing I can do to improve myself and just be cordial.

Even so, sometimes I want to reach out to her and just talk. Every contact she makes she asks to talk. She gives me opportunities to talk everyday. She still complains I don't answer the phone even after I've told her I won't.

I just have doubts sometimes. I find my firmer boundaries suck to do. I didn't like seeing W cry. Today I made W angry in a text conversation. Didn't like that either.

Yesterday, after I asked why she had scheduled 2 weekend away in a row, she said she was flying to the West Coast with her boss on a work trip to an awards ceremony next weekend. I explained that she said she would take S12 on weekends and she did not ask me about her change of plans.

I recognized her pattern of lying in her explanation and asked her this morning via text where she and her boss would stay and be reachable on the weekend she said she would be here with S12.

She reacted as expected and said her boss wasn't going on the trip and she was flustered when she said so and she was sorry for the confusion. Asking her again led her to threaten lawyers and a legal separation. She left a cursing VM, said I was now hurting S12 with my behavior, that she loves S12 and is insulted I would suggest otherwise, that she was worried and shaky about me b/c I was texting her about her trip.

Then she says she's sorry for lashing out when she feels angry with me and that I don't deserve that and I'm a great dad. She offered to get a friend to take care of S12 that weekend. She took the time to schedule a play date for S12. Mentioned our joint bank account was negative.

Around this time she called again and left a second VM asking if we could talk and be nicer to each other.

I told her not to change the subject. Asked her if she can confirm what she told me about her trip was honest.

She asked me why I didn't believe her. I reminded her I believed her every time she walked out the door (to her A). Asked her if she is being honest now.

She said it was a work trip and said she was tired of texting. Talked about how S12 would not be disappointed with her not being there b/c she would talk with him. She said he would be disappointed if he can't have the playdate she scheduled but it is my call.

I texted her that I was not happy that she broke her commitment to me without asking me or explaining why. Told her it didn't help to hear her story change with every text. Reminded her that, if she needs to break a commitment to me, I have the right to ask her why without getting vagueness and threats and to tell her no. Told her it was not a matter of keeping S12... it is a matter of me feeling like I've been taken advantage of and lied to. Reminded her that, if I need to break a commitment with her, she can count on me to be prompt, courteous, and transparent to her and S12. That I understood the need to build trust and to do the right thing given the difficult circumstances.

She again said it was a work trip and that she would get me the details when she can. She offered again to have a friend cover for her.

I declined... said I'm thankful for my time with S12. And agreed to the play date she set up.

Later, I asked her about her mom as she's home visiting. She texted me a picture of them both saying she was great. I texted W "you look nice." She thanked me for the compliment and sent a smily face.

...

I do not believe she'll get me anything to confirm her trip is for work. There's nothing I can do about that. I don't even know if taking this so far was the thing to do regarding my R goal.

So I didn't tolerate her changes without her asking me or her inconsistent story.

This works if I'm D.

Does it work if I'm trying to save my M?

Originally Posted By: sandi2
I have asked you several times if she has always been this irresponsible, and wishy-washy on everything around her. I know being a WW can intensify this behavior, but were you and S12 constantly having to readjust your lives b/c of her? If you were, then nothing has changed in that department.


Around money she has been irresponsible. Last summer, immediately before this started, she decided to spend our joint money on her trip to Europe with her BFF without telling me the full details beforehand. This caused a huge problem with our taxes and S12's tuition. It was the start of her showing the real strain I recognize in her now. I can see now how she was sick of our regular life and wanted more.

Even so, I encouraged her to go to Europe and told her it was b/c I wanted her to come home happy. I took the strain of the taxes and tuition on myself which she also didn't like b/c she said didn't feel included.

I can see how my setting budgets and not spending money made her feel trapped in our M. I'm sure that will continue and she will blame her financial issues on me.

As far as being wishy washy or unreliable... she has been very reliable. I would say she thinks she is being reliable now. Earlier today she talked about how she has done everything she said she would. That she is doing her best. If I point out how she has not kept her schedules and payment agreements, she will simply cry it's not her fault.

So yes the not great part of her have been intensified regarding how she acts with me.

Originally Posted By: sandi2

I have to wonder when you are pointing your fingers at yourself and talking about getting your family back..........are you seeing that picture with your W as she was in the past before she became wayward? HP, she has not changed.

I see LBH'S wanting their WAW back at almost any price. But I don't see many of them say they want her as she is now. It's as if they think she'll automatically change back to her old self again. That is why I have asked you how much of her actions are the same as she's always had. (And I apologize if you have said and I missed it or have forgotten.) Have you always had to rescue her? Has she always expected you to bend to accommodate her? Has she always been bad to make agreements or promises, only to break it time and time again? And.........would you take her back if you knew she would never change (minus the OM).


You're right... I have had to rescue her, bend to accommodate her, and it was hard for her to stay on the budget she agreed to. Not always but big decisions in our life went wrong b/c we didn't communicate well on our differing needs. I would still bend to try to accommodate her but it wasn't enough or wasn't right for her. Yes we were often not on the same page. Yes she would have to be change regarding communication, M effort, and honesty. We both would.

Originally Posted By: sandi2

HP, what are you willing to live with, if reconciliation is possible? We do a lot of talking about the LBS changing, and not enough talk about what the WAS needs to do to make it work again. I am pretty sure you would insist on her ending contact with OM, and things along that line. However, that has not come into your conversation much lately (which is good), but it is her unwillingness to stick to what she says she'll do. That seems to be the sore spot for you (and who wouldn't get fed up?), so will she stop that behavior pattern....or could you live with it for the rest of your life? When you see the "picture" of your family together again, how she is acting on a daily bases in that picture? Not what you dream about, but on what you know about her. IMHO, that is the decision you need to consider at this point. You are the only one who can answer the question. You are the one who knows her. Do not confuse your hopes by being completely unrealistic. I am not saying you are or aren't. I just want you to keep a clear head and thereby having a clear vision.

Everyone would want to reconcile if the spouse became what/who we wanted, right? You may, or may not, decide to move forward and be happy while she either becomes someone you would love to live with........or you may decide to take her as she is right now, without any expectations of her getting better. Perhaps that choice would give you a better perspective.

Of course you want to be a man that any woman would be a fool to leave. In reality, there are a lot of fools in this world. frown. Don't lose your own self worth and core values. Don't sacrifice your own happiness and love out of what you see as being that man, okay? You are seeing her wanting a H who values her and will listen. Fair enough, everyone wants that much. But you get down on yourself and get all out of balance and don't think about what you deserve. Don't you want a W who respects you, be your lover, and will be an equal partner in life?

I am not trying to get you to decide one way or the other. I just want you to keep a clear vision and decide what is best for HP.


I understand Sandi. When my W is happy she is a wonderful and caring person. Over the years she has shown herself to be high strung and anxious and she stresses about not having enough money. The life she wants a man to give her now is low on all those things.

In any case I think you're saying right now I have to turn my back on my M. She won't give me what I deserve right now. Maybe she never will no matter how I treat her now.

Originally Posted By: sandi2

P.S. You are still allowing what she said about missing you to weigh too heavy on your mind. She just said it that once, that I know about, but you continue to make reference to it. You were the one who made it into more than how she meant it, IMO.. She "used" it, HP. Now you need to get past it and stop lingering on it. Can you do it?

((HP))


I can do it.

[/quote]
Posted By: LisaB

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/01/15 10:00 PM

Hi HP, you are sounding so much stronger and better.

A few things I have noticed.

Your W is being a very disorganized and unreliable person, at least from the details of your stories. She changes the information every single time you communicate. This is unacceptable when you are taking care of your son.

As Wonka (and others) said, this needs to stop. The schedule needs to be set and she needs to stick to it unless there is an emergency. I know the housing situation is part of the reason this has not been set yet. But I wouldn't hold my breath for that to be cleared up soon. So she moves in on Feb 9, no wait, the 15th, no .. the 17th. Yeah sure. And then oops she doesn't have a bed for your son, or some other such excuse or problem. She is out of control.

The problem is that your son cannot suffer because of it, so you have to be flexible. But I think continuing to draw a hard line about her promises is a fair thing to do. So if she says "I'm moving Feb 9th" and then she says "I'm moving Feb 17th" call her out on it immediately. "I thought you said Feb 9th?" and do this each time. "I thought you said every weekend?" You don't have to be mean or rude, just firm.

However what I would NOT do is ask her stuff like where she is going or who with. Honestly that is not exactly your business. I mean, yeah she is having an A or As but getting involved in discussions or arguments about that sort of thing will not help you. Just hold her to her promises, be short and blunt and drop it.

"You said you would pay X, I expect you to do so."
"You said you would have son on X date, I expect you to do so"
"If you cannot do something don't say you will"

That's it. But don't ask questions about OM, her activities or anything.

I feel your pain and confusion in wondering if this is all bringing you closer to your W or just pushing her away. If you were just very very loving and kind would she crumble. But to be honest she sounds like a mess. A mess she needs to solve herself. She needs time and boundaries.

The bit about her calling the police because she didn't reach you all morning... this is just utterly ridiculous. If she was someone I knew and she did that to me... I would tell them to go get their head checked. Really? Someone doesn't answer the phone for a few hours and they must be in mortal danger. Oh the age of cell phones is truly annoying sometimes. Your wife is really irritating me, can you tell? smile

HP you are doing so well. Keep your chin up and stay strong.

hugs, Lisa
Posted By: HPoirot

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/01/15 11:36 PM

Hello Lisa. Thank you for your advice. I do believe you are right about calling her on her inconsistency and inconsideration.

Even so, I think you are also right about being very very loving to her while I do so.

I sent her a text just now apologizing for my reaction to her travel and wishing her well on her trip.

When she offers to do something, I just expect it may not get done. No surprises when it doesn't. No surprises when she's inconsiderate. Doesn't matter.

She right though... if I don't trust her, it's my problem. I can't keep putting myself where the matter of trusting her matters to me. It doesn't matter where she goes or what explanation she offers.

I can't turn this around with her. I can only act like a better me. I don't get mad, I don't ask questions, I don't make demands. Like you said, when she doesn't do something, just let her know nicely what I expect next time and keep going.

Sandi you are right I deserve better and I must act like someone who really does.

I can do this.
Posted By: sandi2

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/01/15 11:36 PM

Quote:
Hello Sandi. Thank you for your thoughts. I believe you would say I'm being ridiculous and there nothing else I can do at this point except move away from her. I can't be the one who listens to her right now. I can't allow her to lean on me emotionally.


No, not exactly. This what you said:


Quote:
Quote:
I guess by cutting her off so extremely, I'm showing her what she expected... that I don't love her and think little of her. She wants someone of high value to value her and hear her.


What I see in this statement is HP blaming and putting himself down, while making excuses for her. IMHO, that is a backslide when your thoughts start going back there. You are still having a lot of trouble balancing. You go too far when you are thinking of "keeping the road paved smoothly" and then turn and go too far the other direction when you are thinking of "boundaries and detaching" I don't like to hear that you are showing her what she expected.......which, according to you, would be that you don't love her or value her. I am going to say something that you won't like to hear b/c she is still your W and the mother of your child. If you could look at her objectively and without your attachment, you would see her as an adulteress and a liar, who has selfishly broken her home b/c she would not end her wayward lifestyle. She makes choices that constantly puts her son on the back burner and keeps him upset. She totally disrespects and takes advantage of you, not to mention her threats and manipulation. You have said as much yourself, but b/c you have feelings for her it probably angers you for another person to say it. That's totally normal and I mean no disrespect toward you, HP, and please do not be offended by my attempt to get you to understand what I want you to see. How do you love and value this kind of person? Yet you get down on yourself b/c you have a problem with it? I think you love who and what she use to be, and you are hoping she will find that person again. (I really hope she does, too. And I believe it "is" possible.)

It may sound that I am contradicting what someone else may have told you. However, I am of the belief that a person has to have a value system they live by, before they can expect others to actually show them they are valued. Do you see what I mean? I have no doubt she wants you to give her top priority, letting her chew your ears off and monopolizing your time while you are always reassuring her how valuable she is. I just don't happen to believe that is what you need to do at this point & time. I don't believe it works with a wayward.

For the record, I am not saying to turn your back on her. However, on second thought, perhaps that is how you may interpret it if you were truly detached from her and stopped her game playing.

Quote:
Even so, sometimes I want to reach out to her and just talk. Every contact she makes she asks to talk. She gives me opportunities to talk everyday. She still complains I don't answer the phone even after I've told her I won't.


As I recall, that describes the biggest part of how the MR went every evening at home. You both engaged in conversation. She not only has a need for it, but DEMANDS it from you. She has begged, pouted, insisted, and got very angry over wanting you to talk with her (which in reality means she wants you to listen to her talk). Of course you miss talking with her. That was all that was going on in the MR. You are lonely and suffering for adult company, and you miss having a family with her. More reason to GAL and be around other adults. I know it doesn't replace what you desire for your M, but I think it would help you stay a little more balanced in these areas.

Quote:
I understand Sandi. When my W is happy she is a wonderful and caring person. Over the years she has shown herself to be high strung and anxious and she stresses about not having enough money. The life she wants a man to give her now is low on all those things
.

She may get better, or she may continue to get worse. Most of us are wonderful people when we are happy. However, I direct you back to what I said in my previous post. Are you wanting (and missing) the woman she use to be, or the woman she currently is? That point is why you need to stay balanced and objective in your thinking/actions.

Quote:
She won't give me what I deserve right now. Maybe she never will no matter how I treat her now.


Very true, however, it is YOUR choice how to deal with this stitch. IMO, you can detach and have a life without her ruling every aspect of it. Frankly, I don't know if there is hope for her or for the M to survive, b/c she had several of these tendencies before getting involved with OM. I still go back to what I have said in the past, that you have to save yourself before saving the M. How you do it is your choice. We are here to help, if we can. That is what I am trying to point out so you will find your balance in all of this.

You say your firm boundaries suck. Actually HP, you need to have tougher ones. Not to be mean to her, but to get control of your life. No, you don't like having to refuse things and/or hear her cry. (Not to be hateful, but sometimes it seems she cries whenever backed into a corner or she can't come back with an answer.). So about boundaries, you can stop her from threatening to call the police or get a lawyer, etc. You surely aren't worried if she did! In most cases, if you tell the person to do whatever they think is best.......or to have at it, they cool their heels pretty quickly. She knows she doesn't have a leg to stand on! She is trying to bully you.

So, after the latest episode, what type of boundary do you need? A court appointed child visitation schedule? A legal separation? She's still abusing the joint account, why haven't you closed all joint accounts and bills? Set the tuition up to billed separately. Don't cover for her, and let her deal with those she owes. How does it work for "you" to say you don't have the money this month? Why are you sharing a storage facility? (Which probably is not that serious, except she takes advantage in every way she can.). She rules your life b/c you allow it. You can stop when you've had enough, but it won't be pleasant at first. She is in a power struggle with you, and she's winning. How? B/c of not firmer boundaries. Therefore, she will not respect you as long as she can control you.

When she learns she cannot bully you, and she begins to respect you and gets her sh't together, THEN the M will stand a chance.
Posted By: sandi2

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/01/15 11:47 PM

Quote:
I sent her a text just now apologizing for my reaction to her travel and wishing her well on her trip.


Are you serious?
Posted By: HPoirot

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/02/15 12:09 AM

Originally Posted By: sandi2
Quote:
I sent her a text just now apologizing for my reaction to her travel and wishing her well on her trip.


Are you serious?



Hello Sandi. Yes in the scrum of things last night I thought she said she was flying out with her boss. I listened to her VM again and she did not say that. I reacted to that miscommunication as her lying again so I apologized for my misunderstanding and my reaction. I was wrong.

She still understands she was wrong about not letting me know about the trip. I took it as a chance to admit my mistake and better communication.
Posted By: Karma12

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/02/15 12:40 AM

I really liked what Sandi said about the WAS has to change too in Order for the M. To work.

HP when you go see your IC try role playing examples of texts and interactions with your W. I did that many yrs ago when I went through my first divorce. It helped me tremendously. I learned to have a voice and know where my boundaries were without falling back into old patterns.

I say this today and will post it too on my thread.

There is a difference between giving up and knowing when you've had enough

I thought it was a good one to remember for all of us
Posted By: Squiggy

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/02/15 01:03 AM

HP, I'm not sure how this will be received, but I urge you to really listen to sandi and start exercising tough love for your own sanity. I do realize that despite all the crap you have been through that you love her still, and at the same time one of the greatest acts of love you can do right now is to let her experience her choice to the fullest. Sandi already laid out the details, so I won't repeat them here.
Posted By: T384

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/02/15 02:02 AM

Sandi I just love you smile
Posted By: HPoirot

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/02/15 04:12 AM

Hello Sandi. First, thank you so much again for sticking with me. I value your experience very much and keep it in mind every time I interact with W.

You are very kind to say you will say something I do not want to hear. Thing is, I know exactly what you are saying about my W. She is an adulteress and a liar and I know this. I am not offended by your saying the truth.

Thing is... what you say is part what I am working to reconcile...

The fact as 25 and others have said that W has not been completely happy in our M and now sees hope that her life can change so she is acting the way she is towards me. The fact that I have always wanted our lives to change and now is the best chance we've ever had to see that happen. The fact that I bear my own responsibility in this and I have not given our M enough. The fact that I can have a much better life without her right now being the way she is with me right now. The fact that we, or me with someone else, could have an amazing life together when I get my life where I want it to be for myself.

I know I have to work to detach and really walk away from her.... really not allow her to feel like she can bully me or threaten me at any point. I thought I was doing that today but like you said went to far to one side and then felt bad and went all the way to the other side.

Even so, I have no fear now of enforcing boundaries. I want to get the balance right when I do to make enough chance to make space for an R. I am committed to this year to allow this to happen. I want to do it right.

My IC also suggested I just go and get a mediated or legal separation agreement. Make it very real for her. Everything she has threatened I was the one to actually do. She threatened a legal S and I understand I may have to do that though I don't want to pay for it.

Funny... in our texting today I missed this... she blamed her inability to keep S12 and do what she wanted to do during this "transition" on me making her "homeless." That again I'm the one making this hard and all the difficultly is my fault because I physically left her. That I was wrong b/c I left her b/c she was being an adulteress and a liar. She even said during our last R talk that, if I had given her the benefit of the doubt at the beginning, maybe all this would be different. How can I deal with someone who says this? She has an A and I find out and I made her homeless? I'm the one hurting S12? She keeps saying this.

That is the kind of thing she says when she is cornered. I want to be empathetic and stand as others have but I face her blaming me consistently while she says she owns destroying the trust between us. She asked me just today why I don't believe what she says. Really? Instead of threatening D... she threatens legal S. Yes I'm still on her roller coaster.

If I'm not empathetic towards W... If I'm only objective... then likely I don't want to give her a chance. I file for D getting the maximum for myself and S12 and I find an easy going, curvy, beach loving young woman from the Caribbean and a sweet life on the ocean with her and my boy.

But Sandi, I really believe in almost 20 years with my W. I want to really try. I want to be a man only a fool would leave. I recognize my deficiencies.

I admit I got a bottle of rum to enjoy for the Super Bowl so I'm not all here. I am reading your post over and over b/c I really want to get this right Sandi. My W is acting just like she described herself as a college girl. She's tired of being a boring W just like I am tired of being a boring H.

Quote:
When she learns she cannot bully you, and she begins to respect you and gets her sh't together, THEN the M will stand a chance.


This is where I want to go. I have nothing to lose Sandi. I am very serious here.

I want to get this right. For myself. Finally.
Posted By: sandi2

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/02/15 01:05 PM

I want this to be clear to you, HP, and anyone reading this thread. I am not telling you to D your W. I hope it doesn't come to that point, but it may. You can "stand" for your M, if you want to, but I see standing with a different viewpoint than some others may have.

I know how crazy a wayward can be. This is not some nice, sweet woman who did what she did b/c she was badly mistreated. Yes, She wasn't happy, and you could have done better. However, you are trying to take full responsibility for all her actions leading up to the A. and now, she can guilt you for her current condition. She has entered the world of waywardness, which is horrible for any family member who is emotionally attached to the person.

I see a difference in the person who leaves the M who is still sane and thinks and act logically. The wayward W doesn't. The woman who is not wayward may still be who she always was and has not "lost" herself. She still lives by her standard of values. There is a difference in dealing with sanity and insanity. Know what I mean? You kind of have to see waywardness almost as a state of temporary insanity. (Hopefully, it will be temporary.).

When things are this bad, as in your stitch, I believe a period of separation is needed. And I really don't believe in-house separation works b/c they really aren't apart. Anyway, this period is for the LBH to regroup and recover from the trauma his WW has brought into jis life. It is for him to find the man he wants to be and work on it without the constant distractions from his WW. It is for him to detach and regain his confidence and happiness apart from his connection to her and the MR. I could add more, but you get what I am saying.

The separation period is vital for the WW. B/c she needs to be hit by the realities she has made for herself, due to her waywardness. Oh, she will balk about most things, mostly finances. She wants everything on her terms, which are subject to change without notice. Basically, she will turn the tables to make the LBH believe all her troubles she's currently having is his fault and he owes her.

So yes, I believe in tough love when it is necessary, and I believe it is necessary with waywards. Some have to get tougher than others. When the WW comes to her senses and begins working to get herself straightened out and her life in order.........THEN there is hope for the M to be reconciled. The LBH will be stable, healthy, strong, and confident to step into the position of husband once again. His W will be ready and willing to do whatever it takes to make the M work.

To me, keeping the road paved smooth, means what you do or don't during the time you are apart from her. For an example, having a major falling out with her family could cause bumps in the road. Getting on FB and publicly slandering her could cause worse bumps. Getting engaged to another woman would definitely cause some serious holes in the road. Having a child with another woman might cause some barriers in the road. Standing for your M means you don't do things like that, if you are not divorced from her. But it doesn't mean you can't pull away and have a life while she is on her journey in crazy land. (I talk about the craziness b/c I was there, and it was nothing compared to your W.).

I hope I have clarified my position, in case anyone misunderstood where I stand about saving the M.
Posted By: Ontheup

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/02/15 01:36 PM

Interesting to read that Sandi regarding how you belive you need to sepearte for WAW to see her decisions in full view. That is the point im at at the moment. My wife is still twiddling me around her little finger because she knows she can. My wife is not thinknig logically or rationally. Currently living in a fantasy world where she has complete adulation from 2 men and she is milking it for all its worth. As tough as it is i cant wait to get out on my own. I need to find myself. Make some informed decisions about what i want to do. It is impossible while my wife keeps throwing me the litte bones of hope and i keep chasing after them.
Keep posting HP. I watch your situation closly. Your are much further down the line from me but a fighter for your family.
Sandi your advice as always is spot on.
Posted By: Wonka

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/02/15 04:37 PM

HP,

Your W has thrown everything at you. What do you have to lose by standing firm on boundaries? If she threatens to call the cops or whatever, just say "Sure, go ahead." Then if the cops shows up, just say that "I am sorry that W called you here. She's upset because I am firm on a co-parenting schedule for our son. It's as simple as that."

The cops will chuckle and question W. Then W will lose her ground.

Again, what do you plan to do about the schedule and finances? You've procrasinated long enough since you've moved to the condo.

Funny that W calims that you left her "homeless" when she had been plotting her exit strategy with the OM all along. Whack!
Posted By: LITB

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/02/15 06:25 PM

HP,

Sandi and Wonka are both spot on.

You can talk with your W all day long. She wants to talk, because she wants you to get on track with what works best for her.

Her threats are a play on your fear. Again, to get you to align with what works best for her. They are working. She got you to apologize.

What is it that you fear? She already walked out the door. For me, I feared that my W would file. I feared that I did not have enough time to DB my sitch.

The shift in my sitch took place once I got to a healthy and happy place that was not dependent on anyone else(DB'ing). When I pushed the D forward. When I was not looking for crumbs, but realizing that I deserved better.

HP, you deserve better. I can tell you this, but you have to believe it yourself.

The longer you procrastinate, the longer you are avoiding something that needs to be addressed.

This is one of my favorite quotes, while I was dealing with my W in her fog:
"You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality."
Posted By: gogofo

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/02/15 06:29 PM

Originally Posted By: Wonka

Funny that W calims that you left her "homeless" when she had been plotting her exit strategy with the OM all along. Whack

Similar situation with me. W told me two weeks ago she is done, told me I need to move out, but could stay until our house sells and I find a place to live.

She got mad one week ago and thought I was trying to manipulate her and told me I needed to move out in a couple of days. We talked and then understood what was going on. Got served papers same day.

So I start to look for houses and I get some bitterness from her. She is mad that I am making decisions to buy a house that I felt would not be good enough for us, but NOW it is. I was always overreaching about what kind of home I thought we needed. It tied up a lot of our money and didn't allow us to have fun money.

I got an acceptance of offer on Saturday and told her about it while moving furniture out of our old house. She told me congratulations but it didn't feel sincere, even thought I may have witnessed a physical reaction from her, like a sting. She even took a moment before she responded. The acceptance kind of made the situation even more of a reality.

I feel as though she wanted space and felt the need to push me away and now that I am quickly moving away and trying to move forward it is a little bit of a 2x4 for her.

Whack indeed!
Posted By: paul19510

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/02/15 06:45 PM

I got the same reaction from my STBXW. She asked me to begin the process and she told me tomove on. When I did she complained to a mutual friend that I actually did it....she didn't believe I would
Posted By: sandi2

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/02/15 07:35 PM

Quote:
What is it that you fear? She already walked out the door. For me, I feared that my W would file.


We see this so much in threads from the LBH's. Why are they so paralyzed by the fear of D? I could understand financial ruin, possibly losing their children, being alone, or something of that nature. I have a hard time really understanding the "fear" of the D itself.

Divorce is not the end of the world. Sometimes it even gives the couple a second chance where as nothing else seem to work. And as HP has said more than once, he can see himself being happy with a different woman.

I am just trying to understand what the "fear" really is about for the men. Does this mean all those jokes about the old ball & chain is just a cover, and the truth is you are just as emotionally dependent on a M as a woman? You really don't want to be single, like guys pretend?
Posted By: Tarheel

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/02/15 07:57 PM

Originally Posted By: sandi2
We see this so much in threads from the LBH's. Why are they so paralyzed by the fear of D? I could understand financial ruin, possibly losing their children, being alone, or something of that nature. I have a hard time really understanding the "fear" of the D itself.

Sandi, I'm thinking out loud, but wanted to weigh in on where this 'fear' possibly comes from because I think it's a pretty valid observation that I personally still struggle to fully understand. Despite being told again and again, it wasn't until a few mos back that I really realized that my M was over, whether the paperwork was official or not. In my early time here, D seemed so final to me. There would be no hope for reconciliation with my W should we D. Probably because the hurt was still fresh and I saw no way that should we proceed with D, that I could be friends/on friendly terms (thus allowing that possibility) with W. We would either be M or we would be enemies. I didn't see any in between.

I'd be interested to hear other's thoughts.
Posted By: gogofo

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/02/15 08:00 PM

Originally Posted By: sandi2
Why are they so paralyzed by the fear of D? I could understand financial ruin, possibly losing their children, being alone, or something of that nature. I have a hard time really understanding the "fear" of the D itself.

I fear D, not as much as I used to now that I have been served papers, because I feel that the M is still a link between my W and I and as long as the papers are not signed we have a chance. I know this is not the reality of it and that it is just a civil contract that has nothing to do with the heart, but that is where my fears are. I fear that we will be done forever when the D is final, and I still really love her and would exhaust all efforts to try to save the M. The D just feels like the final nail in the coffin.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
Divorce is not the end of the world. Sometimes it even gives the couple a second chance where as nothing else seem to work. And as HP has said more than once, he can see himself being happy with a different woman.

I know that D is not the end of the world and that I still have the same chance at reconciling with my W if we are D or not. I can also imagine being happy with another woman, but I am not done fighting for this M. The W and I even talked at different times during our M that we would have never got along or been able to date in high school because we were different then.

We even talked about that we both didn't really believe in the whole one lid for one pot metaphor. I think people love the idea of fate bringing two people together, when you are in love. If you still believe this after a D, you need to do some serious GAL and DB. I was at this point a year ago.

Now I am faced with a very real D possibility, about 95% sure it will happen. So I bought a house and am moving forward for myself and my kids. I hope the W turns around and decides to come along on my adventure, but I cannot control that. Maybe she will or won't, but I can't base my life choices on expecting she will. I did that for too long over the last year.

I would rather we continue to live together, but it would not be good for either of us. We need space and separation. I need to focus on me and not me to fix for reconciliation, I do not do this when we co-habitate. I am trying to focus my actions on my wants and needs, and who I want to be, not her reactions. I am working on being independent of her reactions, I felt like a court jester for a while and did not like that. If she finalizes the D or not, I have my path that I am going to walk.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
I am just trying to understand what the "fear" really is about for the men. Does this mean all those jokes about the old ball & chain is just a cover, and the truth is you are just as emotionally dependent on a M as a woman? You really don't want to be single, like guys pretend?

I know I am just as emotionally dependent on a M as a woman. I never felt like she was the old ball & chain and never really joked about her in that way.

I really liked being M to my W, some of the best times in my life. She even caught me talking to a couple of my employees after a Christmas party. I had been drinking and was tell one of them that he should propose to his GF and get M. I told him how great it felt to be in a M and how much I loved being M to my W. She told me the next day that she was behind me listening in and thought it was cute. She expected me to be telling this guy he needed to stay single longer, but was surprised I was telling him to get married.
Posted By: Wonka

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/02/15 08:25 PM

Sandi,

Even though I may not have the right "equipment", I'll venture out in the no-man's land and take a jab here.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
I am just trying to understand what the "fear" really is about for the men. Does this mean all those jokes about the old ball & chain is just a cover, and the truth is you are just as emotionally dependent on a M as a woman? You really don't want to be single, like guys pretend?


In my mind, a husband's world is wrapped around being the "provider": providing a roof over his family's head, providing food on the table, providing for his kids' education, providing retirement, providing this and that.

Having a W by his side, H is being propped up as the bread-winning provider. Without the wife, then what is he? That is how I think men view their world. So when they perceive the "threat" of a D being filed, it strikes the fear of their very existence as a provider. Take away the "marriage", then what 'good' is he?

In orther words, mean sometimes cannot fully function without a wife at their side. I've witnessed many men re-marry fairly quick in IRL because they SIMPLY cannot exist without being a "good provider."

That is also the common thread I see frequently hree in the boards with the cries of "I've never abused my wife...I was a GOOD provider!" As if that should explain everything.

Quite interesting.

I think it is hard-wired into their DNA dating back to the cave man times. No judgement. Just an observation.
Posted By: LITB

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/02/15 08:44 PM

Originally Posted By: sandi2
I am just trying to understand what the "fear" really is about for the men. Does this mean all those jokes about the old ball & chain is just a cover, and the truth is you are just as emotionally dependent on a M as a woman? You really don't want to be single, like guys pretend?

I am not so sure that fear is specific to men. I think even our LBS female counterparts are affected by fear.

I believe we all fear the unknown. That's why so many people fear death. It is unknown.

When we are in a M/R, especially for an extended length of time, it is what we know. It is what we are comfortable with. It was our security. When all of a sudden it comes crashing down...we are left to pick up the pieces. It is a shock to the system. Certainly something that most(if not all) people are not prepared for.

So naturally we do things that are intuitive. We pursue, and beg, etc. I believe intuitively, we fear pushing our spouses further away. We fear upsetting them more. We are in a fog of fear, which causes us to become paralyzed.

The reality is, that we need to stand up for ourselves. Quit enabling the petulant behavior. Easier said than done.
Posted By: bdub

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/02/15 08:58 PM

Fear of being seen as a failure is a big one.
Fear of rejection. In this case, the ultimate rejection.
Fear of the unknown is another.

The anxiety of having ZERO control over the outcome of my situation paralyzed me for weeks. For the first time in my 42 years things were happening to me that I did not like and there was nothing I could do but accept it.
Posted By: Mozza

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/02/15 09:00 PM

Originally Posted By: sandi2
We see this so much in threads from the LBH's. Why are they so paralyzed by the fear of D? I could understand financial ruin, possibly losing their children, being alone, or something of that nature. I have a hard time really understanding the "fear" of the D itself.

Divorce is not the end of the world. Sometimes it even gives the couple a second chance where as nothing else seem to work. And as HP has said more than once, he can see himself being happy with a different woman.

I am just trying to understand what the "fear" really is about for the men. Does this mean all those jokes about the old ball & chain is just a cover, and the truth is you are just as emotionally dependent on a M as a woman? You really don't want to be single, like guys pretend?

I am afraid of D because I'm afraid that the negotiations leading to it will push us further apart. I'm afraid of this volatile environment where we share, in an adversarial context, our differences about money, children and home countries. I'm afraid that third parties will push us apart, by imposing their vision of what's fair and what we should each get out of the D. I'm afraid some false movement on either part will get the guns blazing.

I've also never been one to joke about the "balls and chain". I was happy and proud to be married, especially to this W. It's not so much because I was the provider, but because I was provided and balanced. My IC observed that for me, being M, was a "problem solved". I'm not that comfortable around women and finding one that I love and that loves me back, feeling so lucky was such a feeling of accomplishment, even of relief. I found her intelligent, witty, gorgeous, fun, positive, sociable, etc. I've always thought that sex is better in a stable relationship and we had a very good sex life, so I never felt like I was missing out on sleeping with other W. I don't know enough what it means to be emotionally dependent, but I've put a lot of my heart and soul in this R, doing and saying things that I meant only once. The "us" was very important to me, the intimacy, be it intellectual, emotional or physical. I don't think that there's only one person for me in the world, but I do think that I can make one person very special for me.
Posted By: u-turn

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/02/15 09:00 PM

I'd have to say that being known as the provider is important but I'm not afraid of losing that, not being alone is important but I'm not afraid of that, but I feel that I have some fear D because:

I do not want to be known as a failure that couldn't keep his wife happy and his family together. No matter what odds I was against, keeping us together as a healthy and happy family is how I measured my success.

Throughout my adult life we have looked at married couples and how they acted negatively toward each other and thought I'm so glad we are not that way, or how do you let your relationship look like that, or why are they even married. But I knew that I had what it took to succeed at marriage and keeping my family together - smug.

I don't want to fail and I don't want be judged as a bad husband or a bad father (even though I know it not to be true) and really do not have any interest in people judging my W as a bad W.

fear of judgement.
Posted By: sandi2

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/02/15 11:29 PM

I am so grateful for all your responses. You guys have my tears streaming, after reading all these posts b/c I hear the sincerity, love, dread, sadness and hurt. It made me think of that song, "When a Man Loves a Woman". And Wonka, you have the heart and understanding, and that is the important equipment.

I appreciate you all for taking the time to share your feelings. I believe that is how we can learn from each other.
Posted By: HPoirot

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/02/15 11:34 PM

Hello everyone. Great conversation here.

I feel fear of failure, stress, and losing money. So the fears I live with everyday.

I want to see my family together at a new level of togetherness and happiness and love. I prefer not to fail there.

I hate the stress of dealing with W's stress, fear, anxiety, anger, and crying. So more fears I've lived with many days. I prefer not to deal with this mess from her for years of co-parenting.

And I already have money issues I'm paying off. I prefer not to sink thousands of dollars deeper in the hole.

So, W says she'll have her apartment in 2 weeks instead of next week. I have told her I prefer to start a 4 day split once she has her place. She wants to keep S12 for the majority of the time for a few weeks to balance out our time. I've had him 95% of the time so far. Then she agreed to try the 4 day split though she prefers a week on/off schedule. It could be a good idea for S12 to stay with her the first week to get acclimated there. Being away from my son for a week at a time moving forward does not sound good to me, though.


As for tuition, I will pay my part on Friday and will let her know. She has said she can't afford her agreed to part of the payment. She has now brought up wanting child support a couple times lately. It will be tight for her to pay all her expenses.

My state has no legal separation. We'd have to agree on a separation agreement. If we can't agree... then it goes to court sponsored mediation.

So, the 2 things I want at this point are for W to pay her 35% of S12's tuition as agreed and to agree to a 4 day split schedule. I've already told her both these things.

On the money, her reply is... "I can't afford it. I have more expenses than you." On the days... "I love my son and you've had more days with him." If I say... "that's b/c you didn't have a place S12 liked so you couldn't do as you said you would with your schedule," she replies... "You made me homeless and took the car. It's not my fault."


I preferred to let her initiate any legal action like DB says. So I was going to pay my part of our joint bills, be agreeable with her schedules, and just keep working on my life.

So, do I send her a nice text asking for her schedule idea? Also, I'll just keep paying my part of things and expect her to pay her part?

Or do I just go straight to a lawyer, have a separation agreement made, and send it to her? If I can somehow get primary custody, that would be better parenting and financially for me.

Then, there's the terrible thing that happened to Jan... when she filed for legal separation and her W changed it to D. If that happens then easier for me. I just want to make sure W can't control my life.
Posted By: HPoirot

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/02/15 11:43 PM

There's also the trip my W is taking this weekend. The one she didn't ask me about after she said she would take S12 on weekends. She simply scheduled it on the calendar with without mentioning it or asking if I was OK with it.

She says it's a work trip and explained how it came about. She said she did not know where she was staying let... the client of her company that she says she is traveling with are supposed to make those arrangements and tell her. She said this is her income and for me to please please help her with this. She said she would send the details when she can.

There is a chance, though, this is not a work trip. The event is a nationally televised awards ceremony and party on Friday night. She comes back Sunday. I did apologize for my reaction and demands for information about who was paying for this trip... but should I insist on the details b/c she said she would take weekends or just let it go?
Posted By: Wonka

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/02/15 11:46 PM

HP,

We aren't a boring bunch...eh? wink

You asked:

So, do I send her a nice text asking for her schedule idea? Also, I'll just keep paying my part of things and expect her to pay her part?

My suggestion is to tackle one battle at a time. If I were you, the first area of focus is to get the schedule in place. The finances can be done after you both have agreed to a set schedule. It is confusing to mix them up at once.

Or do I just go straight to a lawyer, have a separation agreement made, and send it to her? If I can somehow get primary custody, that would be better parenting and financially for me.

You're getting ahead of yourself here. The problem is that you HAVE NOT made any moves on schedule because you keep procrastinating. My suggestion is for you to collaborate with W on a set schedule for one month and then post it for all three of you to see. Then reassess if needed. Starsky suggested using Corzi (is that the right one?) as a starting point.

Then, there's the terrible thing that happened to Jan... when she filed for legal separation and her W changed it to D. If that happens then easier for me. I just want to make sure W can't control my life.

Ypu cannot compare your sitch with other person's. Doesn't necessarily mean it will actually happen here. I urge all DBers to try for a collaborative approach FIRST before seeking legal assistance.

In summary, the focus is on the scheduling first and then tackle the finances.
Posted By: Wonka

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/02/15 11:48 PM

Originally Posted By: HPoirot
but should I insist on the details b/c she said she would take weekends or just let it go?


Let it go. The only thing that matters is that W is reachable in case of emergency.
Posted By: HPoirot

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/02/15 11:58 PM

Thank you Wonka. On the schedule... the issue is that we've had a set calendar on Google calendar. We both agreed to each of her schedules but then she could never make her end happen.

So this month she has planed on Google calendar. I have him this week except for one night (except now she has changed that to 2 nights it seems) and this weekend. She has him scheduled with her all next week as she was supposed to have her apartment. But it is already wrong b/c now she has changed her apartment move in from next week to the week after.

So I'll just send her a text... "Hello W. Looking at the Google calendar for this month. Can you please confirm you will keep S12 all next week? Then, please update the weeks after to the 4 week split schedule. Please also remember I'll be busy on x-x days. Thank you W."

I keep saying this is what I have to do. I have no fear of pissing W off. Sometimes it's fun. I just want to be sure this is "what works."

There's also the talking with W. She's back to saying I'm not being an adult b/c I don't answer her phone calls. I really hate that but I've told her I'm not answering her calls and then I'm consistently not answering her calls. When she starts to keep S12 more, she will call and expect me to answer in case it's an emergency. Do I just keep letting her calls go to VM no matter what she says?
Posted By: Wonka

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/03/15 12:04 AM

Does S12 have access to the schedule as well? In my mind, it is imperative that all three of you have access to the schedule so S12 knows where he will be at all times and not be pulled in all different directions like a Raggy Andy doll.

When I was young, I knew my schedule because my late father and stepmother would post it for me. When they first got married and went on a honeymoon not long after my 3rd birthday, they gave the printed schedule at my pre-school so the teachers would crouch next to me as I marked "X" each day so I had a sense of when they'll return from their honeymoon.

This keeps every one honest and I think W would toe the line more with the awareness that S12 sees the same schdedule as you and W do.

Hey, who wants to come out looking like a "bad guy" for switching the schedule so many times?

Try it and you'll be surprised.
Posted By: Zues126

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/03/15 01:04 AM

I believe that men need women more than women need men. In general. I think this is validated by how many women initiate divorce percentage wise.

I do agree men define themselves by taking care of their woman. If their woman looks up to them, appreciates them, and is happy with them, all is well. I think this is true even among many WAHs. Most of them walk because they CAN'T satisfy their woman, not because they don't need to.

I think men need women like women need children. They don't HAVE to have them, but it is their primary purpose instinctively. EDITED TO ADD- I think the prospects to a mother of losing her children is horrifying. If you told them "life goes on" that would be completely insensitive. To me that's how I feel about losing my W. No, I wouldn't want to lose a child, I don't want to compare loses. Just saying that my W was at the heart of me, and my children were at the heart of my W in a way I never was.

As for me, I fear D...because it represents in some way my belief in love. I believed in permanent, committed, relationships, and that two people would never give up on each other, or on finding a way to make it work. I think it's despicable that this is done so readily. It's our world. We get to choose whether we love each other or hurt each other. Something about tearing apart a family is so troubling to me. The fact that it is considered ok is even more troubling to me.

I don't believe divorce is ok. I get the world doesn't care what I believe. But that is how I feel. We weren't given each other to leave each other. Maybe I'm just idealistic and divorce represents the death of my illusions about love in this world. There is no love or commitment, just a bunch of shortsighted reactive selfish individuals that will stick together as long as it benefits them enough.

But for me that's not true. I'll make my beliefs true for ME. And if someday someone like me want's to make that a reality with me, then we can make it true for the two of us.
Posted By: Wonka

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/03/15 01:20 AM

Sandi,

Sorry to have the blinders on that I did not circle back to you earlier and say I too appreciate your comments and perspectives here.

((Sandi))

This is why I love the DB community so much!
Posted By: TLEE86

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/03/15 02:04 AM

HP, sorry its been so long since Ive posted here, but I have been following closely. You seem to be getting a lot of good advice from a great group. Only thing I will say is that I really admire how cordial you have been lately, and seem to have turned a corner in yourself as far as communication with your W. I don't see or sense as much bitterness or anger as before. Whatever you're doing to make that happen, keep it up. When you feel yourself reverting back to anger, pull back as much as possible without getting into a bigger argument with W about not answering the phone. You're doing great HP.
Posted By: Karma12

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/03/15 03:11 AM

What a great discussion. So nice to see people feeling safe and able to share.

I think there is something to the gender issue. Most times if a wife dies young the husband remarries faster than if the roles were reversed. Also after a divorce I believe ( from what I have read and witnessed in my 52 yrs) men remarry faster. When a wife dies after decades of marriage the husband often dies soon after. For some reason women tend to do better long term on their own than men do. Maybe not as much in the up coming generations but definetly mine and those before me.

Fear can be crippling. Life keeps moving and changing whether we want it too or not. We are stronger than we know.
Posted By: HPoirot

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/03/15 03:23 AM

Hello Everyone. Thank you for all the replies and the words of support. This was a wonderful and very valuable conversation about fear here. I am again very humbled that such great information and guidance ends up here.

I'm just journaling right now b/c S12 is screaming on the phone with his mom. He's in his room with the door closed. I'm not listening. I'm not intervening. IC said to let him scream at his mom if he needs to.

W called him tonight and he asked if he would be staying with her tomorrow night. She must have told him he would stay with her for the next 2 nights. (On the calendar she had scheduled only one night. It changed to 2 after I hammered her about being away 2 weekends in a row.)

I was in the living room with him at the time so I heard what he was saying. He said he had a lot of homework and he's been tired and needs to get good sleep. He said he wanted to see her, but didn't know if he could get sleep at the aunt's house. He asked if there was another bed... if he had to sleep with her in the same bed again.

Then I left the room. He then went into his room, still talking to his mom, and closed the door. I thought that was good.

He came out later and was off his phone. He said he was tired and was going to bed. I went in and asked if he was OK. He says he's tired. I kiss him and say my usual happy dreams speech. I've said the same thing to him every night for many years.

When I close his door... I get a text from W. Something like... "S12 is upset. He doesn't want to spend the night with me. He said you were upset about my trip and that I wouldn't be with him next weekend. I wish you hadn't told him. He thinks I'm a bad mom. My heart is broken."

Then I hear S12 yelling in his room. I go in and I see he's on the phone. I leave and close the door.

I get another text from W. I only glance at it. Something about I'm entitled to my feelings but I shouldn't share them with S12. Something bout how she only says good things about me to S12.

Pointless to tell her me and S12 say a prayer for her every night. Pointless to say I tell S12 everyday his mom loves him and I love and miss her even if I'm upset about her choices. Pointless to remind her I told her over the weekend that S12 misses her and she should be here like we expected her to be and that S12 would be disappointed. Her reply... "S12 won't be disappointed. I'll talk to him."

After a bit, S12 calls me and says he's off the phone if I want to talk with him. I go in. He says he called him mom b/c he had something to say. That he was angry with his mom.

He said, "She failed my expectations."

I asked, "What expectations?"

"As my mom."

He didn't want to talk about what he told her. He said this is hers to fix but she's not fixing it.

I kissed him. Told him he'll get to see his mom tomorrow. That's great right? He says yes. I tell him to come get me if he needs anything. I leave him to sleep.

...

I am sick of this. She has seen him maybe 30 minutes in the past week. Blames me for her not having a good place to keep him b/c I made her homeless and took her car. Blames me for all our hardships b/c I found her secret A. This transition would have been easier if I gave her the benefit of the doubt (instead of snooping) she actually said to me during our last R talk. Asks me why I don't believe her when she flies across the country to a "work" party instead of being here with her son. Feels upset that I told him she wouldn't be here after she promised him and me she would be here for him on weekends.

And she feels justified about all of it. It's pointless to argue with her or point any of the above out to her. Now she's upset her supermom job over the next 2 nights (originally 1 night) is now harder.

How do I validate any of this? "I understand W. This is a difficult time for all of us."

No. I'm just ignoring her texts tonight.

Today was almost a completely no contact day. I think I've had one so far in the last 6 weeks. I didn't make it today.

I'm sure if she was typing her perspective of what just happened, it would make perfect sense and I would clearly be a bad guy. How else could she say what she says unless she really thinks I'm out to ruin her life.

Just yesterday she asks me to please please help her by not giving her a hard time about her trip next weekend... or anything else. But, b/c I don't deliver her son to her smiling and happy... I make her sweat and cry about her choices... I'm the bad guy. If only I didn't discover she's right now being an adulteress and a liar she says.

I'm not angry. Not really even irritated. Which is great... a few weeks ago I would've been shaking with fury after a night like this.

I'm even smiling a little. I understand what's going on. S12 is going to be OK. He has a right to his anger. He sees what's going on. He said is was very happy and comfortable here with me just now. We have a good time and laugh and wrestle. When he's sad... I talk with him. I'm doing great with him. That's whats important.

Tomorrow she'll be by to pick up S12. I'll be cordial and businesslike. No problem.

PS... I think S12 knows what his mom is doing. When he was talking about her fixing things, he slipped and said "She che..." Then he said "She lied." I didn't ask him about it.
Posted By: HPoirot

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/03/15 04:03 AM

Was about to go to bed... then I read W's text.

She asks if we can try to be mindful of how we message things for S12. She says she's certainly mindful when S12 asks her about about me or the future. Says she always positions me positively. She says she's not saying I don't do that for her. (Then why is she saying any of this?) She says she understands if I don't talk about her like this adults in my life. She says she just hopes we can put aside our personal feelings and not put S12 in the middle. She then thanks me for listening and says... "See u in the morning."

So, being detached is not feeling insulted or condescended or angry at the nerve of this person who is hurting her son daily to lecture me about messaging to him.

Despite the tone of the last sentence... I'm getting closer to detaching then. I only feel a mild irritation. More sad then anything.

So, buddha had a way to deal with texts like this... "If someone gives you a gift and you refuse to accept it, to whom does the gift belong?"

I'll leave her stuff in her sandbox then.

And yes Sandi, I do not want W as she is now. I'd have to be really desperate to want this person. I want better and will keep working to attract it into my life.

Onward.

PS: Excellent blog post about how to be unoffendable... http://www.ndoherty.com/unoffendable/
Posted By: Wonka

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/03/15 04:14 AM

HP,

W is certainly feeling some guilt over this and is trying to play the "good girl" in this by appealing to the decency in you. Do you see how wrong-headed this line of logic is??!! She's the one that BROKE up the family with her A and S12 has every perfect right to feel anger toward her.

S12 and W's relationship is theirs to own. It is good of you to continue staying out of the way and let them forge a R on their own.

How about sending a simple response to W:

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I am staying out of your relationship with S12 since it is for you guys to figure out together. You need to understand that S12 is entitled to his feelings. It is essential that we respect them and allow him the space to have them. See you tomorrow. Take care.
Posted By: Wonka

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/03/15 04:22 AM

Oh and if your W tries to lecture you again about not bad mouthing you or getting in the middle, calmly say:

Stop this. I do not need to explain or defend myself here. I am very comfortable with my relationship with S12 and we are doing good here. If you must know, I have been nothing but supportive of S12's relationship with you. Thanks for your concern.

You really need to nip her histronics in the bud.

Posted By: Karma12

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/03/15 06:13 AM

That's some really good advice from Wonka HP. I would do exactly as she suggested.
Posted By: HPoirot

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/03/15 03:47 PM

Hello Wonka and Karma. Thank you for the support.

Wonka I missed your posts last night so I did not respond to W texts. When she does this again I'll use them. Thank you so much for your excellent scripts.

Right now things are still frosty between us. This morning, S12 woke up in a funk still talking about not wanting to spend the next 2 nights with his mom. He was little upset when he saw me pack his guitar to go with him. He said he didn't want to practice over at the aunt's house. I said I understand but this is what his mom asked me to pack with him. She said we didn't have to do what his mom asks for. I said I understand your feelings. Let's help mom and do what she asks. You can talk more with her about what you want when you see her.

When W got here, I thought I was even. Not at all happy to see her, but not angry either. She did not get out of the car. She said good morning and I said hey. I bent down to tell S12 goodbye. I glanced at W and she started to tell me something but then looked at me and seemed to decide not to. I said OK, closed the door, and walked away.

She just texted me and said she changed the schedule through March 1 and asked me to confirm I'm OK with the changes. I've now set the calendar to notify me when she makes future changes. I'll also install Google Calendar on S12's phone so he can also see and get notified of the schedule. W said a little while ago she did not want S12 to have the schedule to save him stress. That doesn't make sense. I've noticed that I can't edit the calendar. Will bring that up to her. I prefer the family calendar where any changes have to be agreed to by the other party before they go through.

I'll text her this later today.... "Hello W. Thank you for making this new schedule. Can you help me with 2 things? I noticed before I cannot edit the schedule you make. Also, you made new changes between 2/10 and 2/15 dates after you asked me to review the changes. I could have missed your changes. I'm sure you agree it's fair for both of us to be able to edit the calendar and to be notified and get the opportunity to approve any changes before they go on the calendar. To do this, please move your changes as is to the helpful 2houses calendar you suggested we use before. Once that's done, then I will look at the full schedule and confirm it is OK for you. Thank you W."

I'm going to review the great advice I've received on this thread later. I think at this point I'm doing right... staying dark, sending her calls to VM, being firm on her keeping schedule without changes, paying my part of expenses, GALing, not being offended by anything she does, staying out of S12 and W's relationship, pushing back when she tries to make me the bad guy.


I'm going to schedule another DB coach session at some point. I think I have an IC session today.

Back to work.

Onward.
Posted By: HPoirot

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/03/15 04:13 PM

OK I believe this move will get the schedule under control. We'll have a calendar we can both edit and any changes she wants to make will have to be approved by me and vice-versa.

She replied "OK that sounds great HP. How are you?"

I ignore her questions about me. The one time I didn't, she said she missed me and I took that too far. Still trying to find that balance.

I think I did well stating my position on the schedule while making it more collaborative and fair in a way that sounds supportive of W by asking for her help.

Finances next. Thank you everyone.
Posted By: zew

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/03/15 04:18 PM

HP, I think you are handling this beautifully. You are reaping the peace that comes from detachment. And you are keeping a positive attitude towards W and her relationship with S, while at the same time leaving it to her to repair.

You have come so far since moving out. You have this, HP, you absolutely have this.
Posted By: LITB

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/03/15 05:31 PM

Nicely done HP. You should be proud of yourself.
Posted By: sandi2

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/03/15 05:32 PM

Wonka and Starsky are terrific with examples of scripts. I agree completely with her advice, HP.

You seem a lot better today.
Posted By: Wonka

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/03/15 06:07 PM

HP,

Well done with the latest text exchange...yes, do you now see how much more effective the collaborative approach is with W?

You wrote:

W said a little while ago she did not want S12 to have the schedule to save him stress. That doesn't make sense.

Chuckling at this. Isn't this so patently obvious that W does not want to be transparent with S12 with her shifting schedule changes??! Too bad. Now S12 has access to it and iis now out in public. Believe me, W will try her damnest to toe the line knowing full well that S12 sees and knows the schedule.
Posted By: Starsky309

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/03/15 06:22 PM

Kudos and attaboys, HP -- doing great!!! whistle


Starsky
Posted By: Zelda09

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/03/15 06:48 PM

Cool as the other side of the pillow!

I hurt so much for your son reading through your thread. He may only be 12 but seems to be a very young adult struggling with so many emotions of loss, himself. You sound like a wonderful father, HP. I can almost feel that energy you're trying to attract from here. Self respect and a level head looks hot on anyone.

This thing where your W assumes you're projecting all your feelings...I wonder...I see you asking if she might have a private moment to speak at the next drop off time...and gently telling her you understand her concern, look her in the eyes and tell her you are nothing but respectful and positive about her in discussion with your S. But that he isn't a young child or an empty vessel to be filled with your perspectives - and has his own thoughts and feelings about what is going on. It assumes a lot that what he is expressing to her has anything to do with your feelings about the situation.

You seem to have mastered the cordial neighbor thing and it seems this could be twice as powerful delivered in person instead of a text if it could be done with the same detachment and respect. If she really thinks S12's angry and hurt feelings are yours, she's missing the point that you're over this b.s., or thinks you coolness is an act.

Wishing you well, HP.
Posted By: HPoirot

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/03/15 07:38 PM

Wow thank you everyone for the kind words of support. I really want the schedule to work for S12.

Funny about schedule... I forgot when my next IC appointment was so I texted IC. She said today at 5. She was then good enough to warn me W has an appointment with S12 at 4. I and S12 did not know that. So she will tell S12 only today about an appointment that makes him anxious. I just hope it does S12 good.

Just be dispassionate about what she does.

Just keep going.
Posted By: bdub

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/03/15 07:44 PM

That is good news, right? Other than him being anxious, getting the counseling is a step in the right direction!
Posted By: HPoirot

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/03/15 09:12 PM

Hey bdub. Yes it's good news A12 goes to therapy. W. It was my idea to take s12 to IC with me. She initially said S12 is resilient so no problem. When he started cursing at her, then she invited herself to take him to my IC. I just have to watch her turning all problems into my fault.

On another note... It seems a little like she thinks I want this separation. I suppose that's what I would want her to think as I'm DBing. I have to watch I don't get irritated at that. Just stay in my picnic.
Posted By: InLikeFlynn

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/03/15 10:03 PM

Next time your wife asks how are you....say "Living The Dream!!!"
Posted By: PatientMan

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/03/15 11:09 PM

Just as a heads up, HP, the more you don't respond to her manipulation, the more likely it is that she'll become frustrated and retaliate. That isn't to say you aren't doing the right and best thing for you and your S (I believe you are), it's just a warning so that you do not get blindsided with seemingly 'off' behavior of hers as control shifts out of her hands and into a more balanced state between the two of you. People don't like losing control, especially WAWs, and even when they have a disproportionate amount of it.

-PM
Posted By: sandi2

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/03/15 11:55 PM

Maybe it's good, then, that you all go to same C. That way, the C gets story from all sides.
Posted By: HPoirot

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/04/15 12:06 AM

Hello PM. Thank you for the heads up. I'll work to be ready for her frustration and retaliation. I want to do whatever I can to not be bothered by or with her.

I just got back from my IC session. I surprised myself... talking about my W scheduling a trip without asking when she said she would take weekends brought up more anger than I thought I had left in me. It became a vent session which the IC said was good for me. I brought up some things W did in the past few months.... her plan to string me along for 6 months... saying she couldn't keep S12 b/c I made her homeless... blaming me for her difficulties b/c I snooped instead of giving her the benefit of the doubt... that it's my fault that all this is difficult.

The good thing is I was not nearly as angry as before. I am getting better... less energy given to her.

IC suggested I have a joint session with W to let out my anger on her. Said it would be good for me and maybe transformative for our working relationship. I said she does not deserve to hear my feelings. It would make me angrier to hear her excuses and rationalizations. IC said she would not let her get away with that and that I should really consider it.

Right now I'm not going to do any joint session with W. I'm sure IC wouldn't have offered unless W has already agreed to it. W did mention doing the same thing when I was confronting her on her weekend trip.

IC also let me know she has stressed to W in her appointment right before mine that her schedule changes have to stop. That W's relationship with S12 has been damaged by her choices and her not seeing him for weeks. IC understood my frustration that W blamed her not keeping S12 on me when she could have made much more effort to see S12. IC said I did good with my insisting W use a calendar that we could both edit and any changed had to be approved. IC mentioned W had scheduled more appointments with her and S12. IC said S12 is a sad boy and his relationship with mom needed repair. IC said I had to be careful to not express my unhappiness or disappointment with W at all in front of S12. I said I would and I will for him.

I walked out seeing more clearly now that I am really really disliking W. That, even if she became nice to be around again, that all those things I didn't like are still there... she can be irritating and high strung and pessimistic and demanding and complaining and mean. She has been that to others... and now she's being that to me. She has not changed... she's just showing more of a side of herself I've always known about to me.

When I left IC I was sad. But it wasn't over.

I checked my phone. Saw W made changes to the calendar again. Has not yet moved to the calendar that I can edit as I asked.

Then I saw a text from her. Said she had scheduled more appointments with her and S12 with my IC. Also said she told S12 the truth... that she and I would not get back together. Said she was sorry. Said my IC agreed she should tell S12 the truth.

IC was right about me... I'm better but not detached. The text hurt a little when I saw it. I felt some hopelessness.

I called S12 right then. He answered. Sounded OK. He was out eating a burger with his mom. I heard her in the background.

I told him I love him and I miss him. He said he loved me. He said he missed me. Then he said he missed me a lot. Then he said he loved me again. I asked him to call me before he goes to sleep. He said he would. I hung up.

I'm a good dad. I'm doing right. That's what important. I would have never gone 6 weeks in the same city with my son without seeing him everyday. That's me.

By the time I got back home alone, I cried... but only for a few seconds.

Now I'm much much better. I admit I have a little rum left and I'm helping myself to some.

Nothing has changed. I am still detaching. W is still proving herself as someone I don't want an R with.

I have not responded to W's text. I felt when I first saw it to respond something hateful for a second. I'm just not going to respond. I'm going to continue to make her the smallest part of my life. Automatic, canned answers to her texts. All her calls to VM. Businesslike and distracted and absolutely brief in her presence.

Focus on me and my boy and my happiness.

Nothing else matters.
Posted By: HPoirot

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/04/15 12:13 AM

Hmm just thinking. Maybe I should respond to W text. Say... "Thanks for telling S12 the truth W. Better it comes from you."

Really let her know I'm letting her go.

Considering it.

I'll take my ring back off too. Looking like I give a damn doesn't make any sense either way.
Posted By: sandi2

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/04/15 12:37 AM

Quote:
Hmm just thinking. Maybe I should respond to W text. Say... "Thanks for telling S12 the truth W. Better it comes from you."



laugh.
Posted By: HPoirot

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/04/15 12:48 AM

Hey Sandi. I just saw your post. Does smily face mean you agree with my text response or that I'm being silly? I think it means you agree. Thank you again for all your help.
Posted By: zew

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/04/15 12:53 AM

Of course it means she agrees. Your W has to clean up her own mess. Not that there has to be a bad guy, HP, but it isn't you.
Posted By: HPoirot

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/04/15 01:41 AM

OK cool. I'm slowing learning to write my own scripts. Dropping the rope. Message sent.
Posted By: TLEE86

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/04/15 02:11 AM

Originally Posted By: HPoirot
Automatic, canned answers to her texts. All her calls to VM. Businesslike and distracted and absolutely brief in her presence.

Focus on me and my boy and my happiness.

Nothing else matters.

HP, while i agree you should focus on yourself and S12, I don't think that you should resort to "automatic, canned answers" to her texts. No, your W is not someone you want to be with right now, but clearly you are bothered (understandably) by what you saw that W wrote to S12. But I fear that this irritation or whatever feeling you wanna describe it, will soon resort back to anger and that wasn't a good place. You are finally interacting with W cordially and politely. I just hope you don't backslide. Keep handling this with class HP.
Posted By: HPoirot

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/04/15 02:38 AM

That was just a little hard to send that text. Much much easier than all the other difficult texts I've sent since this started. And this one was the shortest but probably the most meaningful yet. I agreed we're not getting back together. Kind of relaxing now that it is sent. Not intuitive at all.

Reply was... "Thank you HP. Very hard to do."

Almost feel like sending her some D papers right now. I really might if I knew I could get what I want. I have a dream of getting custody of S12 and dealing with W as little as possible. A nice little home close to the beach. A nice dream.

For now, just keep on this track. No pursuit at all... including showing her anger. Keeping her to her word but businesslike. Making her smaller and smaller in my life. For my own happiness. I'm smiling about that.

She still hasn't transferred the calendar. And there's still finances. Then there's much less to think about regarding her.

I just keep walking away from her and treating her like I am.

Happy to do it.
Posted By: PatientMan

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/04/15 05:34 AM

Notice how your feelings change so drastically and so quickly? That should serve as a reminder to you that you can't allow your feelings to control your actions. Really THINK about the man you want to be, how you want to act no matter what happens, the manner in which you conduct yourself which is not determined by any outside forces (such as how others treat you). When you're able to figure out who you want to be, consciously make decisions that make this person come alive - no matter how you FEEL - and you will become that person.

The best way for me to understand this was to think of detaching from MYSELF. This 'sounds' a little odd to me when I type it out, but it worked in terms of me being able to separate my mind from my actions and behavior, being mindful in each moment, accepting reality as it played out before me, and exercising self-discipline...all because at times I knew my feelings and flesh wanted something that *I*, in my mind and soul, knew I didn't want.

Let's apply this practically to how I read your post. You feel very strongly that you are 'done' with you W, so much so that you considered - in jest or not - sending your W divorce papers. Your feelings are so strong that you also have a strong desire to impulsively act on those feelings. If we were to dig deeper we may find that underneath those strong feelings, maybe buried deep, is the possibility that you won't always feel this strongly, thus the desire to move swiftly while the feelings are strong serve as a means to 'get things done' while the getting is good. Does this type of behavior remind you of anyone in particular? For most LBSs, it reminds them of the irrational thought processes of their WAS. And once we realize this we learn two things:

1) We learn a little bit about how our spouse felt/is feeling
2) We learn that, even as strong as these feelings are, we cannot trust them in isolation because it leads to irrational behavior that can harm those we care about (we certainly don't want to act like our wayward spouses).

Now, I am not saying you are acting irrationally. You, in fact, seem to be processing information rather clearly and much better than I did when I was in your shoes. But, it can be productive to tap the brakes and make sure you are very mindful of your decision-making so you don't veer off track only slightly now, just to find yourself WAY off track sometime in the future, looking back and wondering what happened.

This is just a 'heads-up' to really think about who you are and you who want to be. Do not allow your mind to change like a flag flapping in the breeze of your feelings. Feelings are real, they just aren't reliable. Detach from them, use them as a guide, but only as a guide to serve your larger purpose.

And I'm pretty sure I know the feeling you are having today, and for some reason it feels awfully good. Enjoy it! For goodness sake, you've been put through enough you certainly deserve to enjoy something.

-PM
Posted By: HPoirot

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/04/15 03:00 PM

Hello again PM. Thank you so much for your post. I'm going to read it a few more times to let it sink in. Yes I see what you're saying about being more mindful... really watching how my feelings can turn into actions without real thought. It will be a great life skill to get right. I think I used it a little already this morning.

Got a call from W. Let it go to VM.

She started by saying she was going to try to get through this without crying. She said one of her aunts implored her to call me and really apologize.

She went on to tell me how sorry she was for hurting me deeply and changing my and S12's lives. Said how kind and understanding I've been through all she's done. How much she hoped I could forgive her. How much she wished things could be different. How she was so so sorry for all the lies and disrespect. How she hoped we could come together one day and talk. Other tearful things. Said I didn't have to call her back. Turned off her tearful voice at the end to say "Take good care."

As I listened I felt very little. Thought is was funny her aunt had to tell her to do this.

Shook my head in response. I'd like to respond better, but I'm not sure there's a better response that works.

Now I'm a little irritated... but I know that's my lingering expectations.

Sigh. She still hasn't moved the calendar so I can edit it.

Just keep going.
Posted By: Wonka

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/04/15 04:30 PM

HP,

I would not have responded to W about telling the "truth" to S12. I wouldn't have bothered to "thank" her for it is hers to own alone.

As for the VM, no response is needed. "Gee, thanks SO much for breaking up our family." Really. What can one say to that?

I'd push W to get on board with the calendar sharing and allow you to edit. Be a bit more forceful. She needs to stop dragging her foot on this.
Posted By: bdub

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/04/15 04:41 PM

That VM was for her, to make her feel better.
I agree with Wonka on the calendar and schedule. Kids (especially your sons age) need structure and routine.
Posted By: HPoirot

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/04/15 04:45 PM

Thank you Wonka. Thank you for your guidance. I'll only respond to reasonable S12 and financial contacts. Her telling S12 did affect me so I see how I wanted to respond from emotions.

As for the VM... I would prefer if she stopped any of that kind of contact. Just S12 and financials as I've told her. I know all I can control is my response. I'll get better at not being moved by this type of VM or her asking me how I am.

I'll text W this about the calendar... "W. Can you move S12's calendar to X by this evening so I can confirm the schedule? Thank you."
Posted By: HeavyD

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/04/15 04:54 PM

H.P.

I am truly sorry for your situation. You deserve better than what your W has to offer. Be proud of yourself and that you are good man and father.

I wish you nothing but the best.

Much support sent to you - JAN
Posted By: HPoirot

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/04/15 05:31 PM

Thank you Jan. It's really good to hear from you. I saw your news today and I am really feeling for you too. I hate all this for all of us.

Detachment is so important right? I was going great for a while... then a few contacts from W and I allow myself to be moved and now I'm not great.

Yesterday at IC I got to vent. Then immediately when I walk out the door W does something else that I allow to affect me. Then again this morning.

I'm glad I'm not as moved as weeks ago. Now I only feel mild bad feeling so i know I'll be better soon. Really have to stop thinking of the possibility of R. That's the only way to be free of this.

Take care Jan.
Posted By: Wonka

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/04/15 05:40 PM

HP,

I like your text to W...send it, bud.

As for the process toward detachment, it is a zig zag process. There's no rhyme or reason behind it. It is just a process. Although I need to reiterate that GALing aids the detachment process greatly.

How about you and S12 volunteering at a local food pantry 1x a month? Or volunteering at the local animal shelter by having S12 fill bowls and cleaning their towels?

Hey...what happened to CrossFit? Are you still doing that?
Posted By: Karma12

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/04/15 06:42 PM

Wonka is right HP. When the rest of your life improves you can't help but feel better and be happier. Keep GAL it is the key to detachment.

When you are going in the right direction it's amazing how many doors open for you. I just posted on my thread about new beginnings in my life.

All each of has is today. Find something today that you enjoy and that will raise you up.
Posted By: mahhhty

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/04/15 06:43 PM

Originally Posted By: PatientMan

This is just a 'heads-up' to really think about who you are and you who want to be. Do not allow your mind to change like a flag flapping in the breeze of your feelings. Feelings are real, they just aren't reliable. Detach from them, use them as a guide, but only as a guide to serve your larger purpose.


They are real but aren't reliable. This is a great concept. I spoke with a friend about something similar, the Cognitive Behaivor triangle (at the points are action, feelings, & thoughts).

The difference between feelings and thoughts are exactlty what PM described. Feelings aren't necessarily truths, thoughts are rationalized truths and are real. When people take action based off feelings and not thoughts, they are can be making poor decisions (myself included).
Posted By: sandi2

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/04/15 07:22 PM

You may want to consider making a separate recording of her VM, just in case it is needed some day if this goes to court. And, you may want to print out the calendar every time she changes the scheduling. It will show how unstable it would be for S12 living with her.

I don't want to sound mean, HP. Over the years, I've picked up a couple of things here on the board about how one should protect themselves if they have to go to court over child custody.
Posted By: HPoirot

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/04/15 07:29 PM

Hello Wonka, Karma, and mahhhty. Wonka I sent the text. She says she can't transfer to the calendar today but will do it by tomorrow. I told her I will look for the new calendar then.

I then did bring up her trip this weekend. I know I shouldn't have. I acted on emotion.

She replied with her usual plenty texts and a VM complaining that I'm not forthcoming b/c I don't answer her calls and texts and if I did then maybe she would be forthcoming when she needs to break her commitments. She also brought up her full schedule today, her stress, her step dad dying, and all her other problems as reasons for her not confirming why she can't keep her commitments.

I sent one response. That I understand. That I simply wanted to know she is honest in her commitments going forward. Then I thanked her for her help.

She replied this is the first time she's broken her commitments and I had no reason to act this way.

I didn't bother to argue. I left it at that.

She then changed the subject. She asked if she could keep S12 for the bulk of this and next month so he could get reacclimatized to her. Then switch to a week on/off schedule. This after she agreed to try a 4 day schedule as I suggested.

I politely asked how she would feel about keeping S12 he first week when she gets her place. Then 5 days for her and 4 days for me for the first 5 weeks. Then a 4 day split. I said I'm sure she understands that 7 days away from S12 would be too long for me. She said that sounded OK.

So yes I was feeling some anger today as I was sitting here unproductively. I didn't need to trigger anger in W as I knew she would not confirm what she told me about her trip.

I do feel it's right to call her on her failing to keep her commitment to S12 and me and then being evasive about it. For her to respond by saying in a very self-righteous tone, "If you don't want to bother watching him let me know," is irritating... her again trying to blame me when I clearly say I'm happy I get to keep S12... that's not the point. The point is, do you respect us to keep your commitments and to be honest and considerate when you can't. I'm sure I can do better then poking her anger.

Or maybe there's nothing to do. I'm not happy having to be firm with this person every week and her seemingly not getting it 6 weeks into separation.

Doesn't matter. I'll keep on her about the calendar.

In her rant today, she mentioned maybe us talking about the taxes and the tuition. She has already agreed to how to pay them. So I will just let her know when I pay my percentage on Friday. When she asks... "No W I don't have money to pay your part."

Just keep going.
Posted By: Wonka

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/04/15 07:39 PM

HP.

Remember me urging you to get out out of your own way? Let life teach W the consequences of her own choices.

Nope. You JUST had to say something about "this weekend" because you JUST want to show her and stick it to her.

By having access to the schedule, S12 will see for himself how she's not keeping her commitments and he'll be the one to express his disappointment. It is on W to deal with the fallout directly. It is NOT your responsibility to point it out.

Originally Posted By: HPoirot
I do feel it's right to call her on her failing to keep her commitment to S12 and me and then being evasive about it. For her to respond by saying in a very self-righteous tone, "If you don't want to bother watching him let me know," is irritating... her again trying to blame me when I clearly say I'm happy I get to keep S12... that's not the point. The point is, do you respect us to keep your commitments and to be honest and considerate when you can't. I'm sure I can do better then poking her anger.


Remember this thing about "emotions"?? Hence the 24-hour rule to get one at a much more calmer place. Acting and/or reacting out of emotions does NOBODY any good. Especially the LBS.

Whose fault is it for having W respond to you in a snarky way? Your opening wasn't exactly collaborative at all.

Stop trying to get in the way and messing things up. It just gets an egg on your face and you come out looking like a jerk.

Seriously. Grow a pair and tell W in no uncertain terms that you expect access to the schedule. Your S12 deserves stability.

I'd be happy to assist with the email draft to W about the schedule. This nonsense needs to END right now. Up to you.

Posted By: bdub

Re: How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave - 02/04/15 08:18 PM

I would like to chime in that I see no reason for the "make up time" with S12. The past is the past. She is just going to use that extra time against you.
I did this exact same thing in my sitch, and it came back to haunt me!
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