I posted a reply to you train but it locked..
Here is what I was going to say
It does make complete sense. I'm having a bad day. I am feeling so sad and confused on what to do.
I just want to start over I want everything to be okay and I want him to be who he was when he came back.
I need to pick myself up. I'm home with the boys now and they are outside jumping on the trampoline and Im just sitting outside watching them. Wondering wtf is going on with my life.
I feel like I'm at the point right now of saying are you in this or not. I just want a damn answer. I am so sick of I don't know. I feel like I'm in limbo.
I know everyone says patience but damn ... I took him back and now he's not keeping his promises. I want my M but I am done feeling like this.
He either wants this M or he doesn't. Either fight for us or get out.
I'm having a bad day. I am feeling so sad and confused on what to do.
I just want to start over I want everything to be okay and I want him to be who he was when he came back.
I need to pick myself up. I'm home with the boys now and they are outside jumping on the trampoline and Im just sitting outside watching them. Wondering wtf is going on with my life.
I feel like I'm at the point right now of saying are you in this or not. I just want a damn answer. I am so sick of I don't know. I feel like I'm in limbo.
I know everyone says patience but damn ... I took him back and now he's not keeping his promises. I want my M but I am done feeling like this.
He either wants this M or he doesn't. Either fight for us or get out.
TO,
Right now, you need to just stop. Take a breather.
I can tell you that if you push this issue, you will probably get an answer from your H that you do NOT want.
There is a saying in the MLC forum (which is my home), that says you can't unring the bell once it's been rung.
One of the things that I learned from DB, maybe more from these forums than the book, was the difference between
acting and
REACTING.
Action is based in logic and thought.
Reaction is based in emotion.
If you act based on how you are feeling right now, you will be reacting out of fear. And what did Mach tell you about fear earlier today?
I was drawn to your thread because I was asked to look at another poster. I have spent the last two days catching up on your situation.
If you really want to save your marriage, you NEED to slow down and breathe.
You didn't get here overnight (although I know it feels that way) and you won't leave here overnight either.
So, can you slow down and give this the time that it needs and deserves or are you ready to throw in the towel?
I think I've told you before that some of the things you write, I could have written myself last year. So, yeah, I get the impatience. I get the desire to have answers ... NOW.
But that's YOU. And your H isn't "there" right now. And, unfortunately, you can't control him.
Seems to me you don't have many options. You know you have to focus on you. That's a given. You can either do it while H is around. Or you can kick him out and do it when you're by yourself.
Fact is: it doesn't matter whether he's there or not. The work is the same.
So, which would be better for YOU? Him being there? Or him being gone?
And the truth is: You could TELL him to leave. And he could say no. Then what?
The reason you're sad and upset is because of FEAR ... and because you're still thinking that the work you're doing - and the work ahead - is being done to bring about a result in your H or your M (and you're not currently seeing ANY results, good or bad). I think you're looking for a quick fix or for your actions (or words) to rattle something in your H ... to force him into action ... or to bring about an improvement ... or to get him at least TALKING to you ... ANYTHING. (But do you hear what's going on there? Pretty much everything you're considering doing or saying is all to get something from your H. That means you're still wayyy wrapped-up in him and in being able to control him instead of controlling *yourself* and doing things for *yourself*.)
Expectations: no bueno.
You're fearful and impatient. I get that. But pushing/stressing/grasping is not going to help things. It isn't going to hurry things along. Quite the contrary. It'll stand in the way. (Think of the push/pull dynamic. It's REAL. You push, and he pulls back. You pull back, and he moves forward. You've SEEN this happen with your very eyes. Trust it now. It's the same as it always was. People change. But those dynamics don't.)
Vent here all you want. We hear you. And we're here for you.
Do not rattle yourself, though, T. Give yourself a week - at least - to do absolutely (get this:) NOTHING. Make no decisions. This thing isn't going to work itself out overnight. Your M isn't going to be over overnight. Just sit for a bit. Re-group. Re-center. And do absolutely NOTHING until you figure out what you need to do for your very own life.
T0, read what cat and I just pretty-much cross-posted: Practically the very same message. That happened with 25 and me last night. You know what that tells ME?
This is like that pebble story: You have the pebble pressed against your nose, so close to your eyes that you can't even see it. But we are all seeing it on the ground. That's because we're on the outside, seeing things as they are. When two or more people are telling you the very same thing, you can take it to the bank, sista.
Breathe.
You guys are all exactly right. I know I need to breathe and chill out which is exactly why I post here first because if not I'm afraid I may call H and say something I will regret.
I did send a text earlier today. I was feeling happy and figured you know what I love him we can figure this out. Everything will work out for us together. Ugh!
Me : hey H, hope you're having a good day
H: thank you, I hope you are too.
I didn't say anything further.
I'm planning on being gone when he gets home. I'll probably send him a courtesy text saying the boys and I are at X we will be home later.
I know this isn't going to fix itself over night and I am being impatient. I just want to know he's going to try. But that's his choice. I have to let go of that. I will do nothing for a week. It's going to be a long week. I have always struggled with friendly and as if vs ignoring. I never quite got it all the way.
I've been these last couple weeks being quiet, no texting (unless it's a response).
I know what fear is driving me ... I pick up on every little thing. He doesn't call me babe anymore if we do talk on the phone. He still doesn't touch me. His kids goodnight feels forced etc etc. And the biggest fear.... Back in Feb of last year a couple weeks after BD... We went to MC together - where he didn't say he wanted D but said he felt like we were going in different directions. We were supposed to go back in a week. He wouldn't go. Instead made an appointment for himself.
This is driving me crazy because he didn't say he wanted a D in Mc last week but said he didn't know what he wants and made an appointment for himself. I just feel like I'm reliving last year
I am sorry I sound so weak. I am working on getting ahold of myself
And no I am not ready to throw in the towel!
I will just have meltdowns and then be fine lol ... Totally joking (well half joking)
This forum is great. Cat and Train I know your advice is to T0, but it is exactly what I need to be doing right now too.
TO:
I just wanted to chime in that I am going to ride this week with you....You and me, together.
I too am impatient and fearful.
I too love my H.
I too think we can work it out.
I am in the situation that I am applying the advice Train and Cat gave you to myself. I also need to chill out. Some days I see results and then days go by with nothing. I pushed R talks and it went badly. I am reliving situation from 2003 and 2008 so I know you and I both know what it feels like and that brings on more fear and mind reading.
So, I am here. Melt away!
Me : hey H, hope you're having a good day
H: thank you, I hope you are too.THIS is a positive. Now let it ride. Don't let this give you permission to do it again soon. Or to open up a little more than usual. Just ride on this little positive for a while.
Hey, happy and gogofo! I have always learned SO much by reading others' posts. I'm so glad to know my ramblings can help others from time to time, too!
That's exactly why I didn't push the conversation any further Train and plan on taking the boys out to do something fun tonight.
Happy feel free to come here and melt with me. Between this situation and this damn diet I am starting I am bound to be a hot mess but it's a guaranteed laugh around here lol
Train - I just want you to know I hear you and I appreciate you. You guide me and I am so thankful for it. I may sound like a mess but I do hear and listen to what you say.
Honey, you take what you can use from anything I say ... and leave the rest.
I know you're listening to everyone. If you didn't, people wouldn't be sticking around. You have a lot of heavy-hitters in your corner. (As for little ol' me? I'm still in the minor leagues, but I'm in your corner ... I know a winning-team when I see one!!)
xoxo
You're a heavy hitter to me
Okay so can we clarify do nothing
When I told H about my plans tomorrow night - it turned out that it was women and husbands. So I told H. I asked him if he wanted to come. He said he would. Well I just talked to my girlfriend - she is rushing out of town because her grandfather is sick and doesn't think she will be back so its rescheduled for next week.
Do I ask H if he still wants to go to dinner or just tell him the plans are cancelled and leave it at that.
Pretty sure I know the answer to this.
I really need to drop the rope don't i?
Since I'm a nerd, I used this quote through most of my sitch, regarding fear:
“I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
-Frank Herbert, Dune
I would tell him the plans were cancelled. Let HIM pitch a date for the two of you. If he doesn't? Move on.
From what I read...
I think that they are saying that you are overthinking each and every little miniscule detail...
Micro-managing your relationship is seldom helpful...
Relax, enjoy just being you, and your time with your kids...
Let the Universe do it's work....
Acting "as if" everything is just fine....DB101
Gotta agree with Train on this one.
I knew that was the answer.
I am trying to hang onto whatever I can. I'm grabbing on to whatever I can because I can't believe I am here again. We were just so happy a couple months ago.
I just don't know what I could have done differently. So I have to let the fear go. I fear D because I absolutely do not want it.
I'm trying to work that out... It is more than a work in progress. Bear with me while I try to figure it out
Hi T, I can feel the fear in you. I know it's hard. You are going round and round in your head and it is driving you crazy. That's not good for anyone, right?
You are trying to find the answers that are in his head. The thing is, that you cant. The only thing you can know is you. The only thing you can control is you and your actions.
So, try to put the 'trying to figure it all out' thoughts on the backburner for now.
Just for right now, for today, try to let go of the fear because it paralyzes you and keeps you stuck.
This is a marathon, not a sprint. You spinning is using up valuable energy. Energy better spent on you and your kids.
He feels as he does. Doesnt mean he always will.
So, what can you do today to center yourself some? What can you do to find some peace in your head?
Focus has to be on you and the kids right now. That's the way to get through this.
You can do this, T.
The entire premise of DBing - and being here on these boards - is to really seek support to improve *ourselves* so we can become better people. I think many people come here looking for a magic bullet to save a M; I know I did when I was first here (under a different name) in 2005. But we quickly discover that the long-timers around these boards aren't here to give us a magic bullet (that could never be given anyway); instead, they put a mirror in front of our faces to help us consider and find the ways we can change/improve ourselves to be better communicators, better people and better partners.
But there's another side to that, or/but maybe I'm the only one who has struggled with this: I found myself, on several occasions the first time I was here, digging SO deep ... and being SO introspective ... that I started accepting at least partial blame for completely unacceptable things my H said or did. In other words, I was so inside my own head that I sometimes couldn't see what was right in front of my face. I allowed myself to start believing that *I* had done something wrong. I would ALWAYS find how *I* had contributed to my H's actions and behavior. (I should say: I've always been that type of person anyway: to question my responsibility in something before I start "pointing fingers" at others, so digging so deep - and having so many folks asking me what I could change in myself - maybe just kind of exacerbated that.)
At any rate, I, personally, draw a line at you accepting ANY fault or blame for supposedly pushing or pressuring your H to the point that he felt he "needed" to sleep with his cell phone in his pocket. Uhhh no. The fault wouldn't be in you being too hard on him with that. If anything, you were way too *lenient* by allowing him back into your home and life after an A without him agreeing to a comprehensive transparency plan.
On a list of what a LBS needs to begin to recover from an A, being able to openly and regularly look at his/her formerly-wayward's electronic communication - emails, text messages, browsing histories, etc. - is right up there with a no-contact letter to the XOW or XOM.
I dunno, T. I just sometimes think that some people who are newer at DBing - but trying super-hard to save their M - can sometimes accept TOO much blame. And as a result, they sometimes kinda leave their backbone at the door. And that IN NO WAY is going to help the confidence you so desperately need right now. (I'm not saying you're doing it; I just kinda want to bring it to your attention so you don't start ...) Leave FEAR at the door; keep your backbone with you at all times.
You're already being walked on by H. Don't walk on yourself too much, too. Does that make any sense? Or am I seriously the only one who's guilty of walking on myself?
Train,
I wanted to address this. Since the other thread locked, I decided to bring it over here.
I want to disagree with you about some of this. While I do think we can be too introspective sometimes and accept blame for things that we absolutly cannot control...(ie the weather)
In relationships, because we interact with each other constantly, we should always look at ourselves and how we acted, reacted, or did nothing and see what the impact of that might be.
What I think gets confused (especially with people new to that sort of introspection) is accepting RESPONSIBILITY (not blame or fault) for someone else's actions versus accepting our role (or lack there of) and how it affected the other person's actions or feelings.
I didn't make my X confide in other women instead of talking to me, however, when he did try to talk to me about things, often times I was not as receptive as I could have been to him. I did not create that "listening" type of environment that was welcoming to him. There were times that I was critical or angry or just not really even into hearing him. (Busy with the kid or whatever).
So while I absolutely did not and still don't accept responsibility for the choice that he made to go outside of the marriage, I do understand that I created an environment that made that a viable option for him. So I learned to change MY behavior.
I also understand that I have the potential to create a situation that is similar in my current relationship if I am not mindful of me. If I let myself slide back into my old patterns, I could become as unwelcoming an ear to my BF as I was to my X.
That being said...I do believe in transparency in a relationship, however that goes hand in hand with the idea of Trust but Verify...
There is going to come a point in time where the checking of email, text, phone records, needs to stop. Otherwise you simply are taking on the role of a warden instead of a partner.
Anyway...just my thoughts.
Well mom to the rescue... She's driving here (she lives about 45 minutes away) we are going out for dinner and drinks and then going to take the boys bowling
Cat I get what you're saying
UR thank you for the support. I am so lucky to have advice from pretty great people
I want to let the fear go. I guess my hope is that I can stop 'this' before it gets to where it was before
I hear you, cat.
I agree we should always look at ourselves first in a relationship and own what's ours. My post was actually more about my own personal experience - as it related to my personality - especially when I was here the first time in 2005. In other words, I actually wasn't referring to me in a relationship; I was referring to me on these boards. I can only speak for myself. But sometimes, I took the "look inside" thing a little too far and ended up accepting *more blame than I should have* for things that weren't on me *while my H was wayward* and I was here. The blame I actually deserved for things I did (or didn't do) while we were still M was plenty. Perhaps I didn't make that clear enough in my post. (Again, a possible downside to my rambling ... )
Re: trust but verify:
Another personal experience (because I can only use that in anything I offer to others who are suffering here or in the real world) ...
My H - after returning to our M after his A last year - voluntarily left his cell phone by my side of the bed each night for the first few months he was back home, and he provided me a list of all his usernames and passwords. This is now my own personal benchmark/standard for how open a formerly-wayward spouse should be when returning home after an A.
With H being that open, my frantic desire to "verify" faded very quickly. He did his part. And then I did mine: I stopped snooping. (Being a cynic, I also realized that there are ALWAYS ways he can have another A, which made my efforts to "trust ... but verify" feel really futile. I also realized that nothing good came of me finding emails and texts that were on his phone from the days when he was wayward. I wanted to become "unstuck" and move forward, and I couldn't do that as long as I was snooping.) But it was my H who led the way on that by being so willing to be open and answer all my questions, even the ones I had after "snooping." He even offered to go through his phone and emails *together*.
HOWEVER, T's sitch - in the short time her H has been home - was vastly different. He started pulling away from her, making her (naturally) want to find out what was going on with him. He stopped talking to her, making her suspect the worst and making her FURTHER curious to find out what was going on. She naturally felt she *needed* to verify at that point. (And he'd only been home a couple-to-a-few months if I'm remembering correctly!) She wants to trust but verify and discovers he's sleeping with his phone in his pocket. And then he points a blaming finger at *T* in the MC session???
Yeah. I'll stand by my original post on that one.
Trust but verify is temporary; the former-WAS controls a lot of just how temporary that will be by being lovingly open, honest and transparent. T was nowhere *near* "warden"-status at that point, IMO.
Have FUN with your mom and boys tonight, T!!!!
I was thinking about this when I was on errands a little while ago: You are doing a *phenomenal* job ... FAR better than I'm sure I would be doing in your shoes right now. Pat yourself on the back for that. And drink one for me.
for the record I have not gone through his phone since he's been in the house. I recently went on his FB but have not snooped through the phone. I TRIED to after he started sleeping with it in his pocket but obviously I couldnt get it out of his pocket.
Am I wasting my time with this man? Is this a telling sign that we are already back to this just a few months after he's home?
No, T. I don't think so. IMO, it's more a sign that things weren't done "right" when you let him back in the house. It moved too quickly, and he wasn't ready for the heavy-lifting that piecing requires. (I do think there might be some unresolved issues with how you two communicate specifically about finances and needs, but I think we've covered that in spades and that's what your professional MC is for.)
I didn't do it right in 2006. My crap came back to haunt me in 2014.
Try to look at this as an opportunity to get it right. Though I know that's impossible right now ...
TO324,
I am new to your sitch, 854 posts is too many for me to go through plus you already seem to have some great advice coming in at you.
Let me say that when my wife came back I made it clear that I would be checking up on her. She would have to accept this as part of the deal or no go. I wasn't the one who betrayed trust I was the one who needed to trust her again. so to that end she KNEW I would be looking at her phone, and I wasn't even going to be sneaky about it.
Reconciliation is great...but without boundaries and establishing some groundwork for it? Relaying on it just working out after a betrayal...is not the best idea.
You husband should be trying to win your trust back, he lost it, he should want you to fix it...and it takes time. Trust is one of the hardest thing to regain. IF he is unwilling to let you check up on him, there is a problem...conversely if he is willing to let you check up on him it is your job over time to stop looking as long as he keeps showing you there isno reason to doubt him.
It takes some time. AND a very in depth conversation about what will be happening.
IF he is unwilling to let you check up on him, there is a problem...conversely if he is willing to let you check up on him it is your job over time to stop looking as long as he keeps showing you there isno reason to doubt him.
Yes, yes, yes, yes, YES! Gawd, why can't I wrap up my 6 freakin' paragraphs of thoughts in one digestible sentence like that? I need an editor. Hallelujah, JTB! Thank you!!!
Thank you everyone ...
Things weren't done right and then when I started to question his behavior he pulled away even more.
I will be really looking towards everyone and my MC for how to move forward IF H decides he wants to work on our M
Right now it's so confusing for me because he doesn't really talk to me but he is sleeping next to me and has had his phone on the night stand since the MC told him to.
We haven't really talked since MC. Our MC wanted us to talk that night or yesterday about the ex boss/job situation. I asked H after Mc and he was tired and I haven't brought it up since.
I guess I just am wondering that he's telling me he loves me and sleeping next to me but not doing anything else but those motions.
I will continue to be nice, happy and busy.
Jack - my biggest issue is that he is making me feel like the bad guy. He should still be trying to earn my trust but instead its my fault.
I've also thought about the kissing him when I get home. I know I should be doing nothing but the C asked him to leave the phone out and sleep next to me and he's doing it. He's also kissed me when he gets home. So maybe I should kiss him when I get home from work next week. It would be a 180 and I know it's something he wants
Me to do enough to bring it up in MC. However it goes against do nothing
TO,
Jack - my biggest issue is that he is making me feel like the bad guy. He should still be trying to earn my trust but instead its my fault.
Are you the bad guy?
I seriously doubt it. Did you have faults that contributed to the bad marriage, I'd bet money on it. BUT...
He is the guy who had an affair and he is making you out to be the bad guy...
As a guy, and not always a nice guy, that is some shady stuff, and it would worry me.
Are you able to talk with him about this and let him know how you feel, that you are not the bad guy and that crap needs to stop.
You every hear the best defense is a good offense? Making you the bad guy puts you off your feet...it destabilizes you, it unbalances you. Its a crappy trick, one that he needs to stop.
How he stops is really up to you on how you approach it. I will say that allowing it to continue might not be in your best interests.
As long as you can bear the results change is good if you can no longer handle the status quo.
Do things need to change right now?
And now I will leave you to your regular posters.
Thanks JTB
Always appreciative of the vets around here - and everyone else too. No I am not the bad guy. I need to stop letting him make me feel that way. I would love things to change right now but they don't Have to. I have been through so much already what's a couple more months
I fully expect some major 2x4s for my behavior tonight. However, my mom the boys and I had a wonderful time at dinner and late night bowling. Then my mom took the boys to stay the night with her. H actually showed up at bowling. I was surprised.
Before my mom got out here I had to meet H at the bank to deposit some money. He forgot to make his portion of the house payment which resulted in me driving up to the bank at 745 (transactions post if made by 8 that day) to make sure the money got in for the house payment (we have never been late in 10years). So needless to say I was pretty frustrated. Well he got out to meet me and I after greeting him with a hello mustered up saying ---- do you even want to be in this marriage? I cannot and will not live like this ... I know you are going through a lot but so am I. I just can't keep doing this any longer.
He said he does want to be in this marriage but he's depressed. Hes never been this broke in his life and that's why he made the appointment for IC Monday to get help in dealing with issues but not alienating me. I told him I can't be shut out of his life anymore. I Want to help him but I don't know how to and that I hope he can figure it out. I didn't cry, I didn't yell. I was calm cool and collected. He was mostly full of I'm stressed and depressed answers.
Anyway we both came home and luckily my mom was already there. H staged home to shower and we left. He ended up meeting us at my moms. I got a kiss hello, during bowling, goodbye. I know it's trivial but this is a big improvement from even yesterday.
Anyway. I know I will get 2x4s but it was the best way I could have a conversation. Now who knows what tomorrow will bring but going to bed tonight I feel better than I have in weeks.
Thank you all
No 2x4 from me. As I have said before, he is playing the victim. I think it's time to call him out on his bad behavior/treatment toward you.
How long can he use the same old excuses of being depressed and stressed? So what? Why take it out on you? So he's broke. Is he blaming you for it? He wants to blame you for the problems in his life......and for being depressed (unhappy).
I do a have a suggestion. Maybe b/c he sounds like a sulking little boy and you are the stronger one who is telling him you want to "help" him. IDK, but to me, it verbally positions him as the weaker person in this R. Even though he really is, I think it might be best to stop saying you want to help him.
He needs to grow up and act like a responsible partner in this MR. If he is going to be your partner, your "other half", he needs to get over himself and start showing you the respect you deserve and his accountability you need to feel secure. As the WAH, he owes it to you. Crawling into his shell and refusing to give decent answers to valid questions is not acceptable in a M. You aren't even sure where he is working! And he doesn't want to talk about it? That's not acceptable. He would not accept any of the b.s. he's been doing if it were you dishing it out to him. But he knows from the previous time that he can act badly and you will try to soften his bed and make life easier for him. All he has to do is make you feel like it's your fault that he has to act this way.
So don't offer to help him. However, you can tell him that you probably would be willing to work together if you knew what you were dealing with. Piecing a marriage cannot include secrets, unaccounted whereabouts, refusal to answer questions, protecting cell phones, etc. It must have complete honesty, which calls for the WAS to be a completely open book to the LBS. Without it, how can there be trust and security?
So yeah, I say call him out when he gives you flippant answers or tries to make it sound like he is a victim to a situation he caused and now he's an unhappy boy. (But don't use those words for your script.
)
Listen, I
know it is hard for him. Be understanding and patient. Be cooperative and willing to work with him, but do not accept half truths, cover-ups, unwillingness of disclosure, cold behavior.......and any other red flags that start waving around. You can see how quickly he changed and could easily walk away and decide to chunk everything again.
Has the counselor explained to him how it is your H's job to give you security in the M? That it's his job to establish trust?
Sometimes, somethings just need to be said.
And for now his answer has you feeling a bit better which is a wonderful thing.
Here is the thing that I see that bothers me the most (and I see it because I have experienced it)...neither of you were really ready to reconcile. When that is the case it makes the work that much harder.
You were never really detatched, you had only begun to feel better about your situation and that was due more to some external validation than anything else IMO. (Which isn't always a bad thing.)
So if neither of you were ready, and problems weren't resolved or really even begun to be worked on by either of you, then after the honeymoon period was over, it easily went back to the way it was pre bomb.
So more than anything, I urge you to continue to work on your stuff and let him work on his stuff and give the marriage the time it needs to heal. And understand more than anything that it is going to be one step forward and two steps back for a while. And that is ok.
I am not saying be a doormat. What I am saying is day by day.
A friend of mine had a mantra that he used every day and others borrowed over the years...I think it is appropriate in this situation...
Today is not the day I quit.
No matter what, I can handle whatever happens today.
Tomorrow, I might change my mind, but today I do not quit.
(nickle bonehead
)
Today is not the day I quit.
No matter what, I can handle whatever happens today.
Tomorrow, I might change my mind, but today I do not quit.
Thanks for this Cat.
TO: As I mentioned I am hanging with you this week. As Cat mentions, you might not have been ready to reconcile nor H. I can tell you, I thought we were ready back in 2008 and we did start the path and bc we had 6 years of personal turmoile (miscarriage, baby death, family illness) we had great years...the heaviness of our life actually brought us together. But when it settled, the same issues came up again...we applied DB during our un happy times and it was natural, but happy times we went back to our old ways.
Nothing is more important now to me (and maybe H) to get this right and break the cycle. I am
trying to give him all the space he needs, which includes him staying at another place every night, which I trust is our other home 2 hours away. He says it is, but I am not asking. Killing me--you bet. Behind the scenes: I am also hoping that H calls our DB Coach and then we will have a joint call with DB coach. I am not re-asking if H has scheduled with DB Coach. Again, these are hard for me as I am very impatient and H and I both like to
fix things. I now know the true hard work is beginning.
One thing I am working on, what is what is needed, to let him have an equal voice in this relationship. I do this with H as much as I can, which is not that much right now.
So more than anything, I urge you to continue to work on your stuff and let him work on his stuff and give the marriage the time it needs to heal. And understand more than anything that it is going to be one step forward and two steps back for a while. And that is ok.
Let us know what you think about if you came back too soon and what you think of the above advice from Cat.
Thanks for always checking on me Sandi
I know everyone has said do nothing so I'm trying to find that balance. As many of you can see it's really not my personality to be walked over. With the changes I've made I've tried to approach things differently than I have in the past. For ex: coming home the other night and saying nothing
But he needs to know that I am not going to be treated like this for ever. It's time to shape up. I am trying to be compassionate and understanding to his feelings.... It's hard. I think I could be more understanding to the stress and depression if he was treating me with respect.
So in regards to me telling him I don't know how to help him and I would if he asked. I'm tryig to figure this out because I see what you're saying that I believe he knows he 'has' me and can treat me like crap and here I am still wanting to help him. But a HUGE gripe for him that be brought up over and over in Mc is that I said his debt was his debt his problems where his I didn't want to be apart of fixing things that he created during our S. Which his EXCUSE for taking care of things on his own (or lack there of) and not involving me because I told him in the beginning it was his sandbox. However we've had concersations since and he still uses the excuse of I said I didn't want a part of it.
The MC definitely called him on his stuff during C. Saying that I deserve him to be honest with me and I deserve him to be sleeping next to me every night with the phone off and on the nightstand. I deserve to be able to go through his phone and no it shouldn't be for ever but it's going to take time. He said if it's still going on a year from now then we have something to talk about.
Cat -
I think our biggest mistake was just being happy and feeling everything would fall into place. We went to MC 3 times.... In our sessions we were just talking about everything that happened during S. It was a lot of trust, current plans, discussion of should H move back in, etc
We should have continued going. At our last session the beginning of October he said next time we need to talk about what got both of you to the point of separation so that we can avoid it again in the future. He wanted to figure out what are big issues were with each other and how we could fix them.
So MC for is just talked about S and trust issues and we hadn't gotten to the big long issues that we needed to work on.
Last week MC told us he wants to see us together weekly and individually weekly for at least 6 weeks and then we will reevaluate if we still need IC or just MC and if we can space it to every 2 weeks.
I think I have a lot to work on still but I have made some big changes and he hasn't really made any. I get frustrated that the person he was to come home seems to have disappeared.
I don't want excuses anymore - I want results! Lol
But seriously I am willing to do all of my part but I need someone that wants to do their half.
I don't know your MC, T, but I like him.
Me too ... And H likes him so it's a win win
Plus he likes H. .. The first time he met him he said he believes H has struggled with depression and was just in a bad environment and didn't know how to cope with it and made poor choices- and he didn't say it in a way that he was excusing his behavior he was just wanting me to know he thinks H is a good person down under his mistakes. He said he's been doing his for 30 years and would tell me (this was during IC) if he felt I should run for the hills.
One of my friends used to see him - he told her after a few sessions to run for the hills. So glad she did! She is now happily married to a great guy and her ex is still cheating on every GF he has.
I don't know if you remember (I wouldnt expect you to) but the first MC we went to was terrible! My C wanted to call her himself. In our first MARRIAGE counseling session. She said it seems you two have grown apart instead of together. If divorce is what one of you wants I can help you get there. That's verbatim what she said. H started going to see her alone and that was that.
Oh good Lord. I think I *do* remember that - or at least the nuts and bolts.
I'm glad you found a MUCH better one!
I agree with your MC, too: I think you can see a pattern of behavior in your H where he makes really bad choices when he's stressed or under pressure. And, no, that's certainly not an excuse for his bad behavior. It's an observation.
The rub is: Your H is the one that has to recognize he needs to make some changes in himself ... and then he has to make the choice to make them. And one of your 180s could be in how you support that. (Basically, letting H figure it out on his own and letting him clean up his own messes.)
As an aside, the whole thing about you placing a boundary on your/family money not being used to pay-off the poor choices he made during his A? You said that was one of his big gripes to MC. Not taking responsibility for his own actions - and instead pointing a finger at someone else for his own bad behavior - is *another* pattern I'm seeing in your H. "She's snooping on my phone, so I started sleeping with my phone in my pocket." (You wouldn't feel the
need to snoop if
HE hadn't cheated.) And he's griped about YOU leaving him on his own to pay off debt he created while he was in an A? (That debt wouldn't exist if
HE hadn't cheated.) I know I'm probably preaching to the choir on that one, but it was just a thought that occurred to me ...
But back to the original point: One concern is just how much work REAL piecing requires. And how stressful it is. At least in my experience, it's been the hardest thing I've ever had to do. Again, I "pieced" in 2006 after H's first A that started in late 2005, but we did it wrong. I actually wrote on my own thread last night:
That "reconciliation" felt so EASY and NATURAL. I've learned that should have been the first sign that we weren't doing it right.
THIS time has been brutal by comparison. And, from where I sit, the
piecing process is a lot harder on the XWAS (in your case, your H) than it is on the XLBS (you). It has been
very stressful for my H. He says the guilt is sometimes overwhelming. The shame, the internal/self-directed rage, etc. Then there's the stress of thinking *I* am going to leave *him* ... the stress of watching me cry and try to wrestle with my own demons and doubts and questions ... the stress of dealing with the angry outbursts I had in the beginning ...
I think - if your H is committed and determined - that he can pull it off. But he hasn't shown the best track-record lately of being committed or determined ... or being able to operate well or make healthy choices under stress.
It's very clear that you are willing to keep your side of the street clean, T. That hasn't been an issue since I started reading your sitch many moons ago. Your H has a lot of work to do. But he has to decide to do it. And then get it done, knowing it will be "progress, not perfection." You're a good reason for him to do it.
Oh, and just to add to sandi's mention of you "helping" H; one of my favorite quotes:
"Do not deny someone the dignity of their own struggle."
Think about that one. It's a short quote but PACKED with power and possibility and opportunity.
Me too ... And H likes him so it's a win win
Plus he likes H. .. --
This^^ is huge. And fortunate.
I don't know if you remember (I wouldnt expect you to) but the first MC we went to was terrible! My C wanted to call her himself. In our first MARRIAGE counseling session. She said it seems you two have grown apart instead of together. If divorce is what one of you wants I can help you get there. That's verbatim what she said. H started going to see her alone and that was that.
Wait, what?? WOW...
That is the worst "advice" I've ever seen, which is saying a lot.
Can you get your money back, and then throw an egg at the office window?
Do a "yelp" review or something. Warn people away...
OMG
Oh good Lord. I think I *do* remember that - or at least the nuts and bolts.
I'm glad you found a MUCH better one!
I agree with your MC, too: I think you can see a pattern of behavior in your H where he makes really bad choices when he's stressed or under pressure. And, no, that's certainly not an excuse for his bad behavior. It's an observation.
The rub is: Your H is the one that has to recognize he needs to make some changes in himself ... and then he has to make the choice to make them. And one of your 180s could be in how you support that. (Basically, letting H figure it out on his own and letting him clean up his own messes.)
As an aside, the whole thing about you placing a boundary on your/family money not being used to pay-off the poor choices he made during his A? You said that was one of his big gripes to MC. Not taking responsibility for his own actions - and instead pointing a finger at someone else for his own bad behavior - is *another* pattern I'm seeing in your H. "She's snooping on my phone, so I started sleeping with my phone in my pocket." (You wouldn't feel the
need to snoop if
HE hadn't cheated.) And he's griped about YOU leaving him on his own to pay off debt he created while he was in an A? (That debt wouldn't exist if
HE hadn't cheated.) I know I'm probably preaching to the choir on that one, but it was just a thought that occurred to me ...
But back to the original point: One concern is just how much work REAL piecing requires. And how stressful it is. At least in my experience, it's been the hardest thing I've ever had to do. Again, I "pieced" in 2006 after H's first A that started in late 2005, but we did it wrong. I actually wrote on my own thread last night:
That "reconciliation" felt so EASY and NATURAL. I've learned that should have been the first sign that we weren't doing it right.
THIS time has been brutal by comparison. And, from where I sit, the
piecing process is a lot harder on the XWAS (in your case, your H) than it is on the XLBS (you). It has been
very stressful for my H. He says the guilt is sometimes overwhelming. The shame, the internal/self-directed rage, etc. Then there's the stress of thinking *I* am going to leave *him* ... the stress of watching me cry and try to wrestle with my own demons and doubts and questions ... the stress of dealing with the angry outbursts I had in the beginning ...
I think - if your H is committed and determined - that he can pull it off. But he hasn't shown the best track-record lately of being committed or determined ... or being able to operate well or make healthy choices under stress.
It's very clear that you are willing to keep your side of the street clean, T. That hasn't been an issue since I started reading your sitch many moons ago. Your H has a lot of work to do. But he has to decide to do it. And then get it done, knowing it will be "progress, not perfection." You're a good reason for him to do it.
Oh, and just to add to sandi's mention of you "helping" H; one of my favorite quotes:
"Do not deny someone the dignity of their own struggle."
Think about that one. It's a short quote but PACKED with power and possibility and opportunity.
Piecing for me, was harder than everything else. (Which was an unpleasant surprise)
And it wasn't a picnic for my kids either. I had no idea that by not bringing them along the ride, they'd feel left out. THEY didn't see the Retrovaille retreat, and THEY didn't hear h's regrets, which were profound.
Today, years later, we are dealing with their perceptions and feelings and unanswered questions.
But I digress. T0, this^^ is good stuff.
Keep up your own work. As this^^ implies, it's all YOU can do anyhow. No small feat, and you'll be better off as a woman, regardless of what he chooses.
I am "sending" you chunks of patience b/c you will need it.
I wish 25...
Train - he feels that he's 'owned' his faults. He 'doesn't want to live in the past he knows he was an idiot and made terrible mistakes but he wants to move forward not backward.'
Ugh and I took the bait today.
He's been gone all day. I called him about kids and logistics. Asked him how the conversation with his boss went about getting me the money he owes.
He said they didn't have time to talk about it. They will talk next week (this has been the case since October) and that he doesn't want the headache. There's nothing he can do about it right now and basically were screwed
I was not having that. I said how is it fair that they just keep our money and we deal with it. There's nothing in writing (I KNOW). So I just have to suck it up and lose the money. That's something I haven't accepted yet
H told me he's sick of arguing with me. (Ummm okay.. We haven't talked about this since the text issue the other night and before that I've kept a lid on it). So basically I'm supposed to say nothing and just hope it gets resolved because he's stressed and doesn't want to deal with it.
I feel defeated and done. I just want a D. I don't want to live my life like this and with someone that could give 2 shits about my feelings.
To quote:
So more than anything, I urge you to continue to work on your stuff and let him work on his stuff and give the marriage the time it needs to heal. And understand more than anything that it is going to be one step forward and two steps back for a while. And that is ok.
I am not saying be a doormat. What I am saying is day by day.
A friend of mine had a mantra that he used every day and others borrowed over the years...I think it is appropriate in this situation...
Today is not the day I quit.
No matter what, I can handle whatever happens today.
Tomorrow, I might change my mind, but today I do not quit.
I love this^^....
T0,
I don't know how to advise you on that. When I read it - I'll be honest - all I "heard" was more talk and pressure and stress about money and finances ... soon after H has expressed to you that he's under A LOT of financial pressure (which is the reason he gave for deciding to go back to work for XOW's dad).
At the same time, that's no small chuck of change, and your H *should* be willing to man-up, put his stress behind him and do the right thing by you and your family. (Especially because - is it just me, or ... - wouldn't that money help with the financial stress?)
Wait. Is that money part of the fund he's not allowed to touch for his A-accumulated debt? If so, maybe he's not as motivated to go after it as you are. Not saying that's right. Just saying maybe it IS ...
***
25, thank you.
And it wasn't a picnic for my kids either. I had no idea that by not bringing them along the ride, they'd feel left out. THEY didn't see the Retrovaille retreat, and THEY didn't hear h's regrets, which were profound. This has also been my experience for my older girls. They are polite to H (their stepdad, which makes it even MORE tense and weird), and they appreciate his offerings to our family. But they are still very bitter and felt (and sometimes feel) "left out" of the process. It's a very hard tightrope for everyone to walk.
Thanks Train and 25
I just had to take a small break, so sorry for my meltdown.
I just feel like nothing about me makes H happy anymore. And yes me asking =stressing H out but he's been telling me for months he's taking care of it and he hasn't. I don't want to be afraid or feel that I can't bring things up because it *might* stress him out.
The way I'm living right now is no way to live. I'm the only person that can change that and I need to figure out what I want.
I want to be married but first and foremost I want to be happy. Right now he doesn't make me happy - he makes me feel stressed, sad, hopeless, etc.
I just am having a hard time dealing with the way he's acting. I know it's supposed to be for better or worse and from this day forward which I am doing but geez can he at least act like he likes me instead of feeling so forced.
I try to have light breezy conversations with him and he's just so blah, Ya okay uh huh. It's like pulling teeth!
T0324. I'm sorry to say, but you come across as controlling. You have lots and lots of expectations about how your H is supposed to behave. He's supposed to follow up on the money a certain way at a certain time, you want to bring up stuff that stress him out, you want him to chit chat with a certain level of engagement and enthusiasm. I'd be very annoyed if my W was trying to have a "breezy" conversation with me while I'm sending clear signals that I don't want to.
Lower your expectations. The way he's acting right now is not the way your H will act for the rest of time. Accept it for what it is: a transition period. I know you think you've given him plenty of time and space, but it's not sufficient. Do you have it in you to give him more?
You're impatient. To me, the best example of patience around here is Vanilla. Follow her thread. She shrugs off a lot worse that your husband is doing to you. Her eyes are on the prize, months away. He's withdrawn today? Doesn't matter. Keep sailing. Remember, or put in your head if it isn't already there, that it's going to take months. I know you've been in this difficult place before and it takes you back, but perhaps you forgot that these things take a long time, with ups and downs. They're not linear: down then up.
The way I'm living right now is no way to live.
To you, perhaps. That's your limit but a lot of people live with much worse situations. Keep in mind that you draw the line: it's not an objective limit that he's crossing.
I want to be married but first and foremost I want to be happy. Right now he doesn't make me happy - he makes me feel stressed, sad, hopeless, etc.
The key words are "right now". You can always decide that "right now" has lasted too long. But "right now" is not "tomorrow". And more importantly, he doesn't make you feel anything: you decide to feel a certain way in reaction to his actions. He's not responsible for your emotions. If you detach, he'll do the exact same thing and you'll feel completely differently.
I just am having a hard time dealing with the way he's acting. I know it's supposed to be for better or worse and from this day forward which I am doing but geez can he at least act like he likes me instead of feeling so forced.
Perhaps it's because he doesn't like you much
right now? Are you capable of accepting that and giving him the time and space to find his way back?
I don't know if you've discussed this before, but have you ever fallen out of love? Or perhaps had a suitor that didn't catch your fancy? If so, try to tap into these memories to understand how your H feels. You may feel entitled to his love because you're married, but emotions are stronger than paper. He can't fake it because he owes it to you. Imagine someone you don't love coming to you and saying: "You can love me if you choose to. Let me show you the way and we'll do the work." Ew. Once he falls back in love with you, you can have a discussion with him about how to sustain it.
What are you doing to make him fall back in love with you?
Mozza-
I appreciate your insight. Have you read my entire story? Do you know how terrible my H was while he was gone and he chose to come back?
It's hard to have patience with someone that chose to come back and swore up and down he was making changes and then just stopped. Now he can't even wake up to take our boys to school.
Yes he's stressed and depressed. That seems to be the only words he can say lately.
I'm just curious , and genuinely asking, how does it make me controlling to want a H to be in a M that he came back to ? Or to even treat me with enough respect to know which job he's at when he comes strolling in at 8pm every night without a text or a call all day? Personally - if I werecontrolling I would demand to know where he was, which job he was working at, take our kids to school, help with the kids at all. He picks up and does what he wants when he wants. He was gone all day yesterday- no clue where he was and I didn't bother to call or ask. The boys and I spent the day together.
So yes maybe I am controlling on wanting to be treated with respect or to either have a man in the house that treats me with the respect a spouse deserves not just someone that's my roommate and living here because he can't afford to leave.
I still have a lot of work to do on myself.
The money thing has been months as discussed. Al I supposedto say nothing forever? Until he feels *okay* enough to talk about it. I'm here just as much as he is. So he gets to drag us through crap, put on his best suit for a few months and then go back to the same stuff and I'm supposed to just deal? I can be patient if I'm treated with respect ... But to be treated no better than 2 ships passing by.
If he chooses to be out of love with me again, so be it. And you're right it is pretty repulsive to have someone try to get your attention that you don't want.
He cried, begged and pleaded. Making all empty promises. Now because he's having it rough because of the money choices he made during his A I'm supposed to suck it up?
Kudos to you guys who have the patience of saints. Maybe I'm not cut out for this. All I want is a little respect but if that's too much to ask right now then I am in the wrong place. It seems to me like it's time to let go again.
Thanks for your post Mozza
He wants nothing to do with me. Just because I post things here again does not mean this is all portrayed to H. I come here to vent about my true feelings because I can't betotally honest with him because of his stress.
Short of what I post here that I say to H. I am nice outgoing and cheerful towards him. I try to do nice things for him. I don't know what else he wants from me. He doesn't even know.
I just feel like nothing about me makes H happy anymore. And yes me asking =stressing H out but he's been telling me for months he's taking care of it and he hasn't. I don't want to be afraid or feel that I can't bring things up because it *might* stress him out.
Hey T0- I'm sure some of your veteran advisors will be along soon to help out. I have read all of your threads (I felt yours had a similarly dramatic BD and separation to mine,so I've followed it and read up on it even though I came much later)
I know you know this and its just phrasing - but you know you can't "make him happy" right now? He's the only one who can decide to be happy, and he has to do the work to be so. Can he do that? I dunno - sometimes I think "yes" and sometimes "no" based on what you write. He sounds fairly youthful.
I guess right now the finances cloud everything else and I can only say what I would do in that situation which is to take my own steps to make the financial situation better and not count on him.
Stay strong T0.
and Mozza I don't want that to come across as in I am not appreciative of your insight because you are right his feelings are right now ... They have been right now for quite a bit. I just don't know if I have it in me based on my feelings of the response I wrote to you
I know a lot of people would feel grateful to be where I am. It is hard to have something given back to you and taken away from you again and feeling so helpless because the person doesn't even know what they want you to do.
Our MC kept asking H why he was so angry with me. H said he wasn't. MC kept asking because he told H, you don't treat someone the way you are treating your W unless you have anger towards them. Yes you are stressed and depressed but why are you alienating her because of that? Do you feel she causes your stress? H said no that his stress is because of his choices. He couldn't say he was angry with me but it is so clear that he is something with me
Thanks Raliced
I can tell myself I can't make him happy but a lot of my frustration is that I'm trying. I genuinely want him to be happy. I want him to return to the man I knkw. But thay is all *i* wants and something he isn't capable of right now.
The crappy part is that he's happy (like most people) when things are going his way. I just hate that our family is punished so to say when things aren't goong his way which in turn makes him closed off and depressed. Then he doesn't want to do anything. Works all he time and then sits around the house. Doesn't want to go anywhere or do anything fun and on the chance he does he just sits around appearing miserable.
This is something g he has to work out. I really would like to bring it up in MC but I have to figure out the right way without hurting his feelings.
Thanks again
Hey T0324 - Yes, I've been reading your sitch for a while, but I haven't read every single post from the start. I'm aware that he was gone and mean, then back with plenty of promises (that's when I arrived) and now he's withdrawing again.
I guess what I'm saying is that you just have to take stock of what he's doing. You can't change it. It's very possible that you don't have the patience for it, you say so yourself. To me and based on success stories, you're cutting short a little early, but that's for each of us to judge. If this limbo is too difficult for you, I'm not concerned one bit that you'll have a happy life without him. It's likely you'll look back and wonder why you were with him.
Why you're angry at someone is a difficult question to answer. I've learnt this much in therapy. Your H doesn't have the maturity to say "I don't know". It would already be better.
I'm not a vet: just a rookie like you who shares his thoughts. The only purpose really is to help you think. You can push back: it can help you think too. Either way, I'm happy if I can contribute.
Hi TO, I've been keeping up with your sitch & sorry you're having a tough time of it. I don't know much about piecing (would like to!) but I know people say it's tricky and it takes time.
It strikes me that it is still relatively early days in terms of piecing for you guys. I know I read somewhere - don't expect your H to be all sweetness and light if you reconcile. That may well take a while, and there may well be some grief (for want of a better word) at the end of the A relationship.
I can understand your frustration though - but rather than making big decisions at this early stage, maybe just take a bit of time out and do something nice with the kids or for yourself. I think the thing I really pick up from your recent posts is just how let down you feel by H. He cried and begged and then your hopes were raised, and now you feel they have been dashed. I understand that.
I don't have much useful to add - but just sending you my good wishes. Toots x
In a lot of strange ways, you describing your H ATM, reminds me of mine. Ugh, men......they seldom do things the way WE would, right? A lot of things that we believe should really be important and bother them, just doesn't..........nope, they shrug it off. I understand how you feel in many things you've said, I really do, even though I have not gone through this same stitch with my H. My H and I are very different and sometimes that can be a challenge I can manage, and sometimes I want to tell him to ram it.
Personally, I don't believe your feelings are unjustified. You are struggling with a lot of issues, and they all seem connected to him. The fact in all of this is that it is so freakin unfair to you! But maybe I am emphathizing too much, IDK. Even as the former WAS, I don't get what he's doing. But maybe that's b/c he has not disclosed everything. Instead of sharing his thoughts and feelings with you and allowing the two of you to work together in this.......he is pulling away and trying to deal with his problems independently from you. (Another thing my H has done all our M.) I readily see how frustrating that could be, b/c that's not your way in dealing with things. It may be
his way. Maybe he wants to prove something, IDK. Ignoring things of high importance (like money owed you) makes no sense to you, and turning it loose seems crazy. I understand that very well, also. My H has done the same thing in the past. We think they should should man-up and go get the money, but they apparently think differently. That's what the books say, anyway.
Here is another problem, sweetheart, in case you haven't recognized it. You are losing admiration and respect for the man. I suspect it started before his shenanigans. I
have experienced how difficult it can be to restore, once it's gone. Not impossible but not always easy, especially if the H doesn't make changes in himself. He may never live up to your hopes expectations in a H. He probably won't handle things in the same way as you. You may not see him put work into the MR you believe he needs to do to make it better. Then again, he might get better (with the help of MC) enough you could learn to accept it. Those are the things you must decide if you can live with, or not. Look how far 25 yrs came with her H.
I think the question I had to face, and maybe you will too, is can you accept him for the way he is? Maybe that's not a fair question, and if I were a young woman with small kids I may have to think long and hard about it. As Mozza said, this is now but not necessarily tomorrow. If I understand correctly, 25 yrs did not change her H, but things did get better for her, and in time, so did he.
I read a book many years ago that talked about how important it is to a man to be accepted. I think the number one need was to be admired. Can you believe it? You are just trying to stand the scamp and he wants to be admired! I think for them, the need to be admired, accepted, and appreciated is very intertwined. Not totally hard to understand. Just hard to do a lot of times.
I hope you can hang with it a while longer. I agree, you deserve better. I also believe you are the more matured and stronger of the two of you. It is difficult if the female is considerable stronger than the man b/c most of us want the man to be stronger, or at least equal to us. We make it pretty hard on the guys, if they do not appear to have the inner strength we think they should.
Oh goodness, I am rambling. I don't even know that I have a conclusion to make here. I hope you can hang on a little longer. Get through this week. Just make that your goal for now......to get through this week without making any major decisions. Oh, and it may help not to put ANY pressure on him. See how MC goes this week.
If your H likes the MC ( and you said he does), then I feel there is hope for him yet. It's when they won't even agree to see one that is discouraging. My H would not even cooperate and go with me to see a MC when I was trying desperately to just stay in the M and not leave him. Go figure! His way of thinking was that he had done nothing wrong. Oh well.......sometimes we are smarter, too.
T0, I do follow along with your thread but it's a fast moving one so forgive me if I've missed some of the details. Is your H taking antidepressants? The word "depression" is thrown around a bit in your sitch, but I do think there are some real signs of clinical depression (H not being able to get out of bed to take kids to school, not being willing to leave the house...are ones that have been used just recently but I've thought this before). If he is depressed, I'm not hearing a lot of compassion from you (yes, he's done some terrible things, but if you are willing to take him back as your H then I think you ought to be able to show compassion towards him).
Have to say I feel the heat just by reading your posts. You seem quite highly strung and sometimes I think that could be compounding the problem, particularly if H is depressed. If he's deep down in a tunnel and you are out the front barking, then it is going to be tough for him to make his own way out.
The money the boss owes you - are you pursuing that issue because you think it is wrong that the boss never paid up? Or because YOU truly need the money? If the former, can you let it go? (We were in a similar situation years ago. It stinks but we still made it through when we decided to stop letting it stress us out). If the latter - well I know H rung up a massive debt during your separation and that is causing him stress now. But as I understood you set a boundary that the debt was his to solve. So stick to the boundary - it is his to solve. He needs to work with boss to get money back or else pursue alternatives to pay off the debt. I honestly think you need to step back from this issue or you are going to wind up not having any options for reconciliation. Do what you can do to calm the situation down.
Oh...and just to add, the boss that never paid my H? We discovered later that legal action had been brought against him (for unrelated reasons) and he essentially lost his right to practice. So, further confirmation that HE was the issue, not us. He really wasn't worth the stress.
Everyone has already said pretty much anything I could offer, T0. But I wanted to add: I hear your frustration loud and clear. And I also know that you're showing it here and not at home. Good for you. And that's what we're here for.
I agree that you deserve better and more. But like someone already said, only YOU know when you're done. (Granted, that should be a decision you make after A LOT of careful consideration and thought; in other words, not yet.) And just look at how confused you (VERY understandably) are: One day, you're sad and saying, in no uncertain terms, that you do not want a D. The next day, you're angry as hell (as we would all be) and ready to throw in the towel.
The uncertainty and apathy in your H would make me want to beat my head against a brick wall, too. And it would very likely make me feel like giving up. Because it would seem easier than what you're going through right now.
But the confusion is precisely WHY you've been given the same advice all week: Slow down. Breathe. It is NOT going to make or break ANYTHING for you to sit with yourself for a week or two and use that time to make some important decisions for YOURSELF and your children. Screw what your H says or does - or doesn't say or do - during that week. Make it YOUR week to think about YOU. You owe this to yourself. Reacting (even in silence) to what your H is saying or doing - and not saying or doing - is keeping you frazzled. And no one can think clearly when they're frazzled.
Telling H off or kicking him out or threatening D isn't going to end your M *right now* or fix your problems *right now* or make you feel more peaceful *right now* any more than doing absolutely nothing will. But "absolutely nothing" at least gives you time to think *without the distraction and stress and frenzy* that blowing up would cause.
So if you don't know what direction you want to go, why not at least mitigate as many stress-factors as possible while you work on gaining some clarity? Would it be more stressful to drop a bomb on your H and your family? Would that make you feel better long-term? Would you be able to think about your future life and make some pretty critical decisions with all that going on? Or would it be better to keep things status quo for right now? Just until you feel you're making sound decisions based on YOU and not your H?
So, I've been a lurker for wbout 6 months now, but I just wanted to let you know that I totally relate to how you're feeling. My husband and I are in piecing, but I've gone back and forth between piecing and DBing several times because I still don't know that my husband has fully committed to staying. He doesn't know himself.
I think feeling sad one day and wanting a divorce the next is normal. I feel those extreme emotions and everything in between all within a few hours sometimes! And yet I put on a happy face for my husband and children, even if I was just crying in the bathroom. I know you're doing the same and just coming here to vent, and I want you to know I appreciate you sharing your story. It really helps to know someone else can relate to how you feel, which is why I'm finally posting. No great advice, just someone who relates and is wishing the best for you, whatever that may turn out to be!
Thinking of you often and much, T. xoxo
Thanks for checking on me.
Just not in a good place mentally right now
Trying to figure out my life
H came home with a brand new expensive car tonight.
Didn't discuss anything with me and we still haven't talked. He came in showed the boys and left. 'Mind you he didn't come home til 830pm anyway and then left just now. We didn't exchange a word.
So much for all that financial stress, I am the fool.
You're not a fool, girl. Your H is.
I just don't get it.
I really really don't.
To me this is him sign sealing and delivery the divorce
T0,
I haven't posted on your thread in a while but I have been reading. From my vantage point (a very limited view, I know), your H sounds ill. Depressed, yes... but I've wondered lately whether it's even more--like bipolar. His behavior seems so wacky. Is there any history of mental illness in his family? Or is this just MLC behavior?
I'm so sorry you are going through this.
H came home with a brand new expensive car tonight.
. OMG!! He is nuts........or full blown MLC. I am so sorry, TO. Will be interesting to know how he acquired that, since he has never been this broke in his life. Maybe a payoff, bribe, or gift?
It looks as if he is intentionally pushing your buttons to make him leave.
Can you place an emergency call to the MC to know how to respond......or do you already know how you plan to do it?
(((TO)))
Claire makes a good point. Could account for his extreme mood swings, maybe? Perhaps the MC has detected some signs.
So he came home. I went out. I congratulated him
I asked him if in the future he could please include me in big decisions. He told me he's not arguing with me ( I said it very calm no arguing). I said I'm not arguing H I'm just asking. I feel so excluded from your life and decisions. We are partners. He said no it's just me being controlling and walked away.
He came inside and kissed the boys and left.
He also told me he's not going to MC with me this week. That the appointment is for me alone. The C Thinks it's best if we do IC and not MC.
I also told H enough with the games. Just be honest and say what you want. I am not going to fight about it. If it's divorce so be it.
I didn't get a response. He can't deal with confrontation and telling the truth
By the way I know we aren't suppoosed to talk about other books but I bought HTIYMWTAI and his needs / her needs
Thanks all for listening to me vent.
TO I've been reading your stories and it's been such a journey.
You have done so much and endured even more.
My best to you.
No, this is him in total MLC!!! Reading through this post somewhat quickly, it sounds very clear to me. I thought my husband had become manic or snapped or whatever until I heard about MLC. Now I know, and as I watch what unfolds, he follows the script. It's comforting to know that these behaviors are "normal." I am waiting mine out and improving myself. It's PAINFUL but in many ways I am so thankful because it all forced me to completely transform myself. Have you read Wonka's posts on MLC? Helped me so much to realize that my husband was in the same tunnel and there was nothing I could do but wait it out.
TO - I know you posted awhile ago about trying to figure out your finances and maybe having separate accounts. Did you ever resolve that? Would this car have come solely out of his finances or is it joint money, and were there any parameters placed on what could be used for what?
A MLC is a life crisis and can happen at any age. He has you walking on egg shells and your day is a good day or bad day based on his moods. You need to detach so that you are not affected so much by his behavior.
Start using the DB methods again. Act as "if" GAL have a PMA detach. Your H sounds immature and lacking insight into his own issues. He is blaming you for his unhappiness.
I understand how frustrated you feel. My H withdrew too. You keep hoping to see glimmers of the H that is nice and engaging. If he is willing to go for IC this may be more of a benefit than MC at this time. Once he works on himself then maybe he can come back to MC. Go for IC for you too. It helps to get a professional perspective. Learning not to be reactive is hard but necessary. When reacting we often say and do things that we can never take back.
A brand new expensive car... I just... can't even.
Being in the dumps like he was and then having a grand project like that? I agree with the others: this looks a lot like mental illness, like bipolar disorder or just hypomania. I've been exposed to an un-medicated (but also diagnosed) person once and she almost drove ten of us in the ditch with her antics. I hope you're getting professional advice on how to deal with this. It's very possible that you'll have to get out of the way to make sure you're not sinking with him, if that's what it is.
Also: he seems to be throwing the "you're controlling" argument a lot when he just doesn't want to talk, which seems to be all the time. I know I told you earlier that you are, to make you reflect, and I understand why you might be sometimes. As I just said above, it might be a matter of withdrawing for now and letting this play out while protecting yourself.
My thoughts are with you.
Hi To, I'm so sorry for the turn of events in your sitch - my heart goes out to you. I find it hard to read what may be happening. Part of me wonders if your H is unwell, like many of the posters here suggest. Another part of me says - Wow, that was a provocative move, given the sitch with the debt and that it related to his A. Was he almost looking for a way to bring things to a head?
What seems evident is, he's not 'in' at the moment. Apart from the controversy of the purchase given the debt, as you say, you weren't involved in the decision.
Good that you will see the C and get some support to move forwards. Keep posting x
Oh dear. So sorry to read this update, T0.
I have a hard time believing that someone who is depressed and so stressed out by financial woes would then go buy a car just to be provocative. It's not the behavior of a rational person. I agree this sounds increasingly like a mental health issue.
Hopefully your C will be able to offer some ideas for next steps. Above all, take care of T0!
Thank you everyone for your support. I don't even know how to describe how I feel. Luckily I am off for the next 2 days to absorb this nonsense.
I work thursday and have counseling. As I said H told me he will not be attending per the C recommendation. I'm not even going to mind read on that. I just feel tired - physically and emotionally. I don't even care to react to anything *right now*
The way he walked away from me and told me I was controlling and he wasn't arguing I was left dumbfounded. It was the behavior of a small child stomping his feet in the toy store for not getting his way. That is not how I want to spend the rest of my life
The car he purchased is in his name and he financed it so it doesn't affect me so to say. However, he can't pay 50% of the bills but can afford a new car payment. That's my frustration along with being in the dark about it. I told him it takes a minute to send a text just saying hey I'm at the car dealership thinking of getting a new car. Not asking for permission but including me.
He makes rash emotional decisions.
Anyway. I think I'm going to start the books I bought. Not sure if I should with where things are right now, any thoughts?
Thanks again everyone
Wow, T, I'm so sorry to hear about what's happening with your H. It seems clear from what you've posted that he is going through a life crisis. Unfortunately, that means not much of what he does will be rational. I know it's hard. Especially since the fog lifted briefly. This is not about you or your family. This is his issue. I think you need to detach and drop all expectations of your H. Focus on YOU and doing what makes you happy. We are all routing for you!
In regards to the books, IMO knowledge is power so reading them can't hurt. That being said, you need to decide whether you're in a place to hear the message or if you need a break for a bit. Only you can decide that.
Big Hugs!!
Hey, T. I'm sorry about the turn things have taken.
Wrt the books... I read both and they are very informative, but won't change anything if your H is checked out as he sounds to be. HTIYM was actually helpful with parenting my boys, if you can believe it, but I had zero openings for using it with STBX. I read HNHN long before he left and he just mocked me for "going to the literature". His head is elsewhere. He also played the "controlling" card... Which in his case was code for "I don't want to give up my OW and you can't make me." (Not saying that's where your H is... But he's clearly not at home.)
I'll say a prayer for you to have clarity. I'm sorry this is how things are going.
To me....MLC is used pretty loosely to encapsulate things that can't be explained, that our partners "do".
Is it a real deal ?
I think so, just not in the context of it being over and done, like in one episode of "Roseanne". Where Dan goes through MLC because he wanted a new truck or something....
To me, MLC is deeper, and more disturbing because of the layers that cover it up. MLC is a depression from deep within a person, typically stemming from unresolved childhood issues.
Typically, it manifests from a disturbed, life transition along the way.
We all transition several times in our lifetime, from infancy to a toddler, from a toddler to a child, from a child to a tween, to a teen, and so on, and so on....
Most of us transition rather smoothly through those stages in our life. That is, if the conditions are right, and we have guidance, and support through those. With MLC, something in that equation didn't happen smoothly. There was an "incident", or the loss of a Parent, or something that caused a transition to be missed.
MLC (to me), is a depression, that manifests outwardly, and questions every facet of one's life, searching for that lost transitional period. It attacks at the core of a person's belief system, and challenges everything that is safe within a person, including decision making, morals, family, etc...
MLC is just a term, and it can happen at any age in a person's life. There is no starting date, or ending date that is later, or earlier. MLC is a individual as the person that is going through it. That is also the reason that it has become so debated amongst professionals pertaining to the existence of it. There is no one way, that a person navigates through.
Although there are certain "scripts" that tend to be followed.
I am in no way saying that I think that your spouse is going through MLC either...cause I don't...
If I were to bet on it, and you want to know what goes through a Man's head at times...
I would say that your spouse is feeling really trapped by life right now, he is early 30's (?), and been with you for about 10 years ? The last time that he sniffed freedom( in his mind), he was a young strapping guy, who had the whole world in front of him. Cars to buy, places to go, beer to drink, and then his life turned upside down when he met you. Cars were put in hold, places became dreams, and then you had children. Job, house, wife, bills, kids, and hell, he was just a kid himself, how could he possibly raise a child ?
Daily life wore him down, single friends doing the things that he had to put on hold, guys at work talking about their adventures around the water cooler. He IS trapped ( in his mind). Life was supposed to be so much more than this. And to top that off ? His life is slipping away, because he is getting older...
And nobody has ever gone through this, not like he is. And the ONE person that he was supposed to be able to confide in, doesn't really "get" him anymore. HIS wants and needs aren't the number one priority anymore. All he hears is nag, nag, nag. He tries to talk with you, and rather than validate, and try to understand, you remind him of the "wrong" that he has done that day, or the bill that he has to pay. And after time, that culminates within a Man....
Now, in no way am I saying that this is him, or you....
What I am saying is, that those thoughts ^^^ , have at one time or another, gone through any Man's head. And if they say that they haven't, then they are lying about it.....
TO....stop trying to drive a square peg into a round hole.....
You want answers that he doesn't have right now, and you can either live with that, or you can't. ..
You either try to understand him, or you don't...
Wow! two weeks on work trips and spotty internet access. Boy TO do you ever know how to give some one some lecture like reading to catch up.
Anyway, let me ask you this: Aside from the piling on of the "is he nuts to buy a new expensive car" group (for the record, I am with that group).
But, you mentioned his debt, his lack of savings, him having 3 different jobs in the last couple of years (and the most recent only a few months). But I cannot really see anyone legitimately financing this expensive car (I guess how expensive are we talking)? So I would say it reeks of him just doing this to push your buttons.
That said, while your response to him was thought out and reasonable: What would have been your 180 response?
Thank you Maybell, heart, and anyone else I missed, it is not intentional by any means
Mach- pretty much your last paragraph describes H to a T. That's exactly how he feels, never good enough, etc. I don't want to be that nag either. I want to be fun and have fun and I try to. Then he is always miserable and it in turn really makes my attitude annoyed with him because he's so damn miserable and unhappy. I struggle finding a balance because at some point we have to be responsible and discuss logistics. I feel i can't vring up things that upset him because of his reaction and how it will make him upset and pull away more. But things (responsibilities, bills, kids, logistics) have to be discussed at times and I feel he goes 0-60 in shutting me out when he doesn't want to hear it.
Any suggestions? I am open to it. As much as I don't want to be a doormat I do have to deal with H and me making him act this way is not good for me either. I don't want to deal with it when he acts that way just as much as he doesn't
Wounded- I thought you gave up on me lol
35k.. Not 'expensive' but to his financial situation it is expensive to rack on another expense when he already 'has.' to go to ex boss to make extra.
I really don't care too much about the car itself it's the principal that I wasn't included, he can't foot his half of the bills but can get a new car and that he would rather work at ex boss to make extra than to just not have the car and not have to work there.
Oh well, I'm working through it. We haven't talked. It seems when I'm quiet and distance myself it's easier for him to act out
My parents said he has never had any consequences. So he's like a child that acts out and continues to do it because Theres no consequence.
H just continues to do things and I don't do anything about it but talk. So I'm done talking and done reacting. I really don't know what my best course of action is.
He has to snap out of it on his own and I wish I could help facilitate that.
Wounded - I have no clue what my 180 response would have been. If things were good between us and I had been given a clue from him he was contemplating a vehicle and he had been being an active H in our M. I would have congratulated him and moved forward.
Beyond what I said I don't know. I feel like I'm being walked all over and to just congratulate him and move forward I know that's not me- he will just continue to push my buttons if I allow it to an extent.
So if you werent in this situation (marital not financial) and he hadnt consulted you what would your reaction have been?
And nobody has ever gone through this, not like he is. And the ONE person that he was supposed to be able to confide in, doesn't really "get" him anymore. HIS wants and needs aren't the number one priority anymore. All he hears is nag, nag, nag. He tries to talk with you, and rather than validate, and try to understand, you remind him of the "wrong" that he has done that day, or the bill that he has to pay. And after time, that culminates within a Man....
Now, in no way am I saying that this is him, or you....
What I am saying is, that those thoughts ^^^ , have at one time or another, gone through any Man's head. And if they say that they haven't, then they are lying about it.....
TO....stop trying to drive a square peg into a round hole.....
You want answers that he doesn't have right now, and you can either live with that, or you can't. ..
You either try to understand him, or you don't...
T, I think this is an excellent post by Mach. What about stepping back for awhile and not talking about any of these stressful topics. Instead just listen and validate what he does say. You don't have to agree with his choices, but if you can show him some form of acceptance and compassion, you might be surprised by his reaction.
It seems when I'm quiet and distance myself it's easier for him to act out
With my stbxw, the more she acted out/spewed/etc, the faster she burnt it out of her system....
I feel i can't vring up things that upset him because of his reaction and how it will make him upset and pull away more. But things (responsibilities, bills, kids, logistics) have to be discussed at times and I feel he goes 0-60 in shutting me out when he doesn't want to hear it.
How about setting up 1 day a week/every other week to quickly go through logistics... make a bullet pointed list....bam, next, bam, next... do not dally or get off topic...and expecting nothing in a way of a reaction (good, or bad) from him? Just business.
The line between being a loving, kind, compassionate person, and being a doormat is razor-thin and blurry as heck. And unique to each of us. Everyone has their own line, and everyone steps on the doormat side sometimes until you figure out where that line is, for you and your sitch.
Sometimes, a marital crisis forces us to re-examine where we used to think that line was, and if it is still appropriate for where we are NOW.
My only concern is that the more I step back the more he walks all over me trying to get a reaction from me.
It's almost like he's testing me. I really can step back as long as he contributes financially. I've accepted that I won't know which job he's at when.
I just don't want to step back and it make him continuing to get out of hand further.
I'm not sure if that even makes sense. I just want him to know I have limitations and want respect. He is an adult and can do what he want but respect me in the process. Don't act like we're M when it's convenient for you. IE : M when bills need to be paid, not M when you don't want me involved in choices
My only concern is that the more I step back the more he walks all over me trying to get a reaction from me.
It's almost like he's testing me. I really can step back as long as he contributes financially. I've accepted that I won't know which job he's at when.
Of course he is testing you...
You have been telling him that you are different, yet your actions are saying that you aren't...
Why wouldn't YOU test that if the situation was reversed ???
My reaction albeit needs improvement but is different from before BD
I would have blown up on him and an argument would have started. When he walked away from me I would have followed him and insisted we talked instead of just pushing it under the rug
Yes I have things to work on
Last night me saying what i said calmly and then leaving it be is a big change for me. He came home said goodnight, I left it be. Was friendly said goodnight reciprocated ILY when he told me goodnight and went to bed.
This morning he kissed me goodbye I told him to have a good day.
I'm not excusing my behavior. I just don't see me being able to really shove it under the rug anymore than that. I feel if I don't nip it now he will continue to do this and i can't live in a M this way. I feel my needs are always on the back burner and I keep molding the way he wants things so he doesn't get upset. If I reacted like I really wanted everyday he probably wouldn't be in the house.
Last night me saying what i said calmly and then leaving it be is a big change for me.
^^^^ this will need to be consistent, imo, for him to believe it. Maybe make a concerted effort over the next few weeks and see if anything changes with him? ... you know... test and re-evaluate.
If I reacted like I really wanted everyday he probably wouldn't be in the house.
Do you want to be that person ^^^^ ?
Quoting another poster from over in mlc-land here....she said this very well:
I do find my self feeling anger at times, but I try to recognize it, acknowledge why I am feeling it, and then try to let it go because I feel that the anger eats away at the better parts of who I am and who I want to be now and in the future...
I wanna go back to this for a few...
My reaction albeit needs improvement but is different from before BD
Different....how?
Different better ?
Better for whom ?
Different worse ?
Worse for whom ?
Different...parallel ???
Same tricks, new pony ???
I'm not excusing my behavior. I just don't see me being able to really shove it under the rug anymore than that. I feel if I don't nip it now he will continue to do this and i can't live in a M this way. I feel my needs are always on the back burner and I keep molding the way he wants things so he doesn't get upset. If I reacted like I really wanted everyday he probably wouldn't be in the house.
So you say that you are not excusing your behavior...
And then spend the remaining paragraph making excuses for your behavior..
Pot or Kettle today ???
You say that you can't sweep issues under the rug anymore...
Whose issues ??
Yours ??
His ??
Are your issues -pertaining to the Marriage- more important than his ???
I am sure that yours are more important to you. Expecting HIM to make yours a priority, completely invalidates HIS issues...
And maybe remind me again...What exactly are his issues ????
At some point, you have to realize that his issues, are not necessarily your issues, nor are your issues , his issues..
Maybe the same concerns, yet you are trying to control him into dealing with things, the way that you do...not gonna work...
I see you consistently trying to apply YOUR fix, for HIS problems...
And until you can see that for yourself, you are gonna keep driving that square peg....
So maybe get back to DB101 here...
What are some goals that you can set, for yourself...
What can you do differently, for yourself...
How can you validate better, for yourself...
How can you stop destructive thoughts...
How can you focus on applying..what works..
How can you avoid going down those cheeseless tunnels...
So maybe not getting back to, as much as starting to DB ??
If I reacted like I really wanted everyday he probably wouldn't be in the house.
Do you want to be that person ^^^^ ?
Quoting another poster from over in mlc-land here....she said this very well:
I do find my self feeling anger at times, but I try to recognize it, acknowledge why I am feeling it, and then try to let it go because I feel that the anger eats away at the better parts of who I am and who I want to be now and in the future...
Thanks TS
I do like that quote
And no I do not want to be that person
I wanna go back to this for a few...
My reaction albeit needs improvement but is different from before BD
Different....how?
Different better ?
Better for whom ?
Different worse ?
Worse for whom ?
Different...parallel ???
[/b]
Same tricks, new pony ???
[b]different as in better. I am not reacting to him the way I would Before
[/b][b]
I'm not excusing my behavior. I just don't see me being able to really shove it under the rug anymore than that. I feel if I don't nip it now he will continue to do this and i can't live in a M this way. I feel my needs are always on the back burner and I keep molding the way he wants things so he doesn't get upset. If I reacted like I really wanted everyday he probably wouldn't be in the house.
So you say that you are not excusing your behavior...
And then spend the remaining paragraph making excuses for your behavior..
Pot or Kettle today ???
You say that you can't sweep issues under the rug anymore...
Whose issues ??
Yours ??
His ??
Are your issues -pertaining to the Marriage- more important than his ???
I am sure that yours are more important to you. Expecting HIM to make yours a priority, completely invalidates HIS issues...
And maybe remind me again...What exactly are his issues ????
At some point, you have to realize that his issues, are not necessarily your issues, nor are your issues , his issues..
Maybe the same concerns, yet you are trying to control him into dealing with things, the way that you do...not gonna work...
I see you consistently trying to apply YOUR fix, for HIS problems...
And until you can see that for yourself, you are gonna keep driving that square peg....
So maybe get back to DB101 here...
What are some goals that you can set, for yourself...
What can you do differently, for yourself...
How can you validate better, for yourself...
How can you stop destructive thoughts...
How can you focus on applying..what works..
How can you avoid going down those cheeseless tunnels...
So maybe not getting back to, as much as starting to DB ??
My issues are the way he treats me. Everyone in my life can see it. Even the counselor said he acts so angry with me. I am not included in his life what so ever. I was explaining myself and not excusing my behavior.
I have a hard time articulating via text my feelings and it may come across incorrectly.
Plan and simple this is how I feel - it's not necessarily right but it's how *I* feel.
My H came back and chose to come back, crying begging and pleading. He was everything I needed him to be - an open boom, daily texts, loving behavior, tons of physical touch, such open communicAtion about what was going on in his life and the decisions he was making. Then slowly it stops. He withdrawals more and is short with me, not affectionate and complete 180. My behavior did nkt change cor him to change. He became unhappy in his job. This seems to be HIS issue. He is happy with things until novelty wears off. XYZ is great best thing ever, then it suks 6 months later. Every car he's owned and every job he's had, even the city he moved us to. He hated it and was miserable there after we carted 2 kids across state. All the sudden the job wasn't good and the city (which he bragged about to me for weeks enticing me to move) was horrible. Suddenly there wAs a lot of crime, schools weren't as great, etc.
So he is pulling back I start pushing. When his behavior is him being distant, not affectionate and angry with any conversation I try to start. He gets more angry and shuts me out further. So here I am.
Why is it so hard for him to just be the man he was when he came back? I don't want to do this all alone. Anyone can say whatever they think until you live with this behavior day and day out. It makes me question why I am even here. I just keep remmeber posters saying this is *right now* but I am tired of being the fixer and walking on egg shells to keep him from exploding. I am tired of making the effort to make things happier around here. I need something from him. I'm getting nothing ... Well nothing positive.
It's hard to move forward from the past when someone acts this way. I thought I had moved forward but when he acts like this I start thinking he's having an A, is he just never going to come home again like
Last year and then I'll get a text a couple days later that he's not coming home.
These are the thoughts and feelings I have every day. Are they right? No. Does it excuse my reactions? No. I just am trying to help people understand what battle I figjt in my head every day. It suks to think you opened your heart to someone who could give 2 shIts about you. Now is that the truth? Not necessarily but it's
How I feel right now.
Those are the struggles I am facing. That I'm trying to work on. Each day he pulls away more they just pile up.
I don't know what his issues are with the M because he doesn't even know. He couldn't even answer that to the C. According to him he has no issues with me he's just stressed and depressed about his job and finances. He is trying to work on not letting hat affect our M anymore. He says he pulls away and gets angry when he is stressed.
And my issues may not be his issues and vice versa. I don't care how he fixes them. I don't even care if they get fixed right now... I just would like some effort.
For him to say he's done with counseling is his choice but it's a gut punch that he's not in this. I can't make him do anything and I. Know that. I didn't even push for him to come again, even last week I let him know of the appointment and let it be.
So again, whatever way he needs to fix them so be it. I would be happy - just for some kind of effort. My way of fixing it is the only way I know. I have a notepad on my phone with a bunch of issues I have with myself and with my R with H that I am keeping tabs on so I can bring it up in IC.
I've always been open to suggestions because I know I am not good at this alone. It seems the more I stfu the more he pushes me. Mentally I don't know what more I can take. I want to be able to have a conversation with my H that he doesn't walk out on. One that he can explain me his side of the situation instead of saying nothing. If I don't know what he's thinkig or feeling then how do I fix it. I am not a mind reader.
I don't know what he wants from me.
So my goals are to take the next 30 days off. I feel I am reaching a boiling point and I can feel the anger and hurt inside me ready to explode. I'm going to enjoy life for the next 30 days with my boys and focus on getting ready for school. Nothing is going to change right now whether he pushes D or not. The abatement is coming up in the next 30 days so we will both have to answer to that.
My goal is to release this anger and work on forgiveness
My goal is to not react to any behavior H puts out towards me. If he is distant or gets a shitty attitude with me I will not react.
I will not allow myself to get into a situation that I may end up regretting.
So my goal right now is to do nothing, if he continues to walk all over me and push my buttons my hope is that for 30 days I will do nothing
And lastly - thank you to everyone who listens to my struggles, advises me, or just lets me vent.
It is embarrassing to say the least
So my goals are to take the next 30 days off. I feel I am reaching a boiling point and I can feel the anger and hurt inside me ready to explode. I'm going to enjoy life for the next 30 days with my boys and focus on getting ready for school. Nothing is going to change right now whether he pushes D or not. The abatement is coming up in the next 30 days so we will both have to answer to that.
My goal is to release this anger and work on forgiveness
My goal is to not react to any behavior H puts out towards me. If he is distant or gets a shitty attitude with me I will not react.
I will not allow myself to get into a situation that I may end up regretting.
So my goal right now is to do nothing, if he continues to walk all over me and push my buttons my hope is that for 30 days I will do nothing
I like these ^^^.
The paradox and counter-intuitive part of DB-ing is, that sometimes, doing "nothing" (about the M/R), is actually doing A LOT.
Mostly, for YOU.
So say nothing about him staying out til who knows when? Nothing about no clue where he is? Do not ask him to do family things, just be friendly and neighborly? Do not initiate any talks unless absolutely necessary. Live as a roommate?
I just want to clarify and make sure I have it right
I don't know what his issues are with the M because he doesn't even know. He couldn't even answer that to the C. According to him he has no issues with me he's just stressed and depressed about his job and finances. He is trying to work on not letting hat affect our M anymore. He says he pulls away and gets angry when he is stressed.
This ^^ could all be true. If it is (and my guess is at least some of it is), then pushing at him to SAY more, isn't helpful. He needs space and time to figure it out, IF he can.
In other words, don't push him for answers HE does Not have...yet
And my issues may not be his issues and vice versa. I don't care how he fixes them. I don't even care if they get fixed right now... I just would like some effort.
Effort on his end, and you seeing it in a way that makes sense to you, are Not the same. My guess would be that HE thinks he IS working on his issues...
For him to say he's done with counseling is his choice but it's a gut punch that he's not in this.
I know you see it that way, but that's not to say HE does. For HIM< counseling may have been another form of nagging and criticisms b/c it tended to rehash things that you are not happy with, in him...
For HIM, maybe counseling was another cheese less tunnel.
I can't make him do anything and I. Know that. I didn't even push for him to come again, even last week I let him know of the appointment and let it be.
But it's obvious how you feel about this choice so it's NOT as if he was really able to say no, correct? Which means he had no choice, and that never feels comfortable.
So again, whatever way he needs to fix them so be it. I would be happy - just for some kind of effort. My way of fixing it is the only way I know. I have a notepad on my phone with a bunch of issues I have with myself and with my R with H that I am keeping tabs on so I can bring it up in IC.
Hey I get this^^. I really do. I'm not a list person but I do make notes. However, another part of me can see how much your notes would look like a "grievance list" to him, or your scorecard.
I've always been open to suggestions because I know I am not good at this alone. It seems the more I stfu the more he pushes me. Mentally I don't know what more I can take. I want to be able to have a conversation with my H that he doesn't walk out on. One that he can explain me his side of the situation instead of saying nothing. If I don't know what he's thinkig or feeling then how do I fix it. I am not a mind reader.
Totally valid. Maybe not what you will get this week, or month, but valid. Can you live without them for....awhile? Would setting an internal, perhaps unspoken, timeline help you? A "Deadline" of sorts, to help you know that you won't be in this limbo land forever...?? Hey, it helped ME but it's not for everyone. And I never shared it with h, I just knew that if my d1 finished high school and h had not figured things out, I'd be all done.
I don't know what he wants from me.
So my goals are to take the next 30 days off. I feel I am reaching a boiling point and I can feel the anger and hurt inside me ready to explode. I'm going to enjoy life for the next 30 days with my boys and focus on getting ready for school. Nothing is going to change right now whether he pushes D or not. The abatement is coming up in the next 30 days so we will both have to answer to that.
My goal is to release this anger and work on forgiveness
My goal is to not react to any behavior H puts out towards me. If he is distant or gets a shitty attitude with me I will not react.
I will not allow myself to get into a situation that I may end up regretting.
So my goal right now is to do nothing, if he continues to walk all over me and push my buttons my hope is that for 30 days I will do nothing
And lastly - thank you to everyone who listens to my struggles, advises me, or just lets me vent.
It is embarrassing to say the least
Not sure why it's embarrassing (please, don't even go there!!)
The plan as outlined ^^ above, is a smart one.
I did something similar at one point, and hope this helps you know what I mean.
About 8 weeks before h was to leave for Alaska, (and thus, the marriage)
he had a 4 day conference in a resort area. He asked me and our 2 d's to go with him. I could not believe it!
I thought "no way". I balked. I mean, why fake "happy family" when the axe was going to fall soon? I could not imagine going and rewarding him, pretending, or letting him be in denial, ETC.
My DB coach said something very different and very wise.
1) "If this is your last vacation together, why not make it a good memory for your daughters?
2) why not make it a good memory for HIM so he'd have something to MISS?
And 3) to NOT fight and NOT get angry."
IN sum, she said my anger, however "right" I felt I was, or however justified my feelings were, they were not as important as my children having a good memory with their dad and me together.
My anger was not so important but honestly, sadly, it had been something I righteously clung to for too long. Thanks to my DB coach,
I figured, maybe I could repress my anger for FOUR days...for FOUR days I could with hold my anger and my negative feelings and suppress my fears,
for my daughters (and for the possibility that h would later regret things and maybe that I might even enjoy myself.) And b/c I needed to know I could live a day or two without feeling this consuming anger within me (I did not like how it felt to ME).
I didn't think I would, but I thought MAYBE I could pull off having some fun with the girls and they'd have a good memory of their dad. I did not realize that I might actually begin to FEEL differently by behaving differently, but it's what happened.
Also, I'm embarrassed to admit that when I contemplated this, I sort of comforted myself with the belief that "hey, I can always be angry and mean to h, LATER"...so it wasn't going to cost me anything to be kind and warm or at least, neutral, for four days...
At first as we were driving there, I thought h was getting a bit nerdy telling the girls about some wild life we saw.
BUT I stopped myself and instead, CHOSE to see him in a new way and I realized that in reality, the girls were learning from their dad. And it's a good thing that h is educated and smart. (And really, I was simply being fairer to h)
Why was I seeing him so negatively before? Probably B/C he'd hurt me and it probably felt like a protective thing to do. ((I know it felt "Safer" to be mad, but was it?))
No, it was actually destructive to our m, and that's just one tiny example of how I had let my anger poison my behavior and what I showed the kids.
Anyhow, I forced myself to "neutralize" anything negative I thought or felt, and sometimes, I was able to convert it into a positive. It got easier after only a day or so. And pretty soon, H behaved in a more relaxed way. He got happier and more positive as well. We both had some laughs too. And some romantic moments too, believe it or not.
And best of all, the girls had a blast with him and me. Went up a mountain and rode horses. We count that as a very good memory. And it was something h thought about later on. It was about 6 months later his loneliness got to him and his calls became daily events, sometimes more than once a day. He'd bring up that trip, and I recall being so grateful for my DB coach (again!)
Give yourself a day at a time with this approach, (or a "conversation at a time") and pat yourself on the back when it works. It can't hurt, can it?
The more we practice NOT showing our temper or anger, but releasing it instead, the better. Also, I think forgiveness takes practice,
Forgiveness is a learned skill for most of us
(b/c how many of us SAW it growing up? Not me).
It takes work and practice, and you'll take 1 step forward one day and 2 steps backward the next. But you get back on the horse and carry on - and it does happen, it does get easier, it does become more 'credible' and believable and doable, with effort and TIME.
((( )))
Right so forgiving the anger is for me so that I can behave more relaxed. I feel on edge all the time and my happiness is too much on how H treats or doesn't treat me.
The divorce abatement will be 6 months February 25. So I feel this 30 days is a good goal for me.
I just want to see quick results. It's how I've always been. So I'm going to ease off the pressure on H. No text this whole week, oh well. I won't bring it up. (That's an example by the way haha)
I just have to figure this out with someone living in the same house as me. I got good at being relaxed and no pressure while he was gone when he was acting cuckoo! Oh well; at this point I feel I've been through so much what's another 30 days. I may get a little more cuckoo with lack of calories from this diet so bare with me everyone
Anyone that wants to detail how I should act I'm all ears lol.
Last year I confused do nothing with ignore and came off rude. I need to perfect happy, backed off, no pressure
How exactly -- not quite sure yet.
Oh and my first step of forgiveness - I will forgive H for giving up on getting the money from his boss. I will not hold it against him and respect that I won't get the money. I am accepting that I am less 5000 and suck it up. If I can let that go maybe i can look at it as me letting go = me not spending that money on a L. I would much rather lose that money and have H than spend it getting a D. Hey whatever spin it takes, right
So say nothing about him staying out til who knows when? Nothing about no clue where he is? Do not ask him to do family things, just be friendly and neighborly? Do not initiate any talks unless absolutely necessary. Live as a roommate?
well, yea... to an extent. Take the car for example:
From what I understand you have mostly detached financially from him. So the car is exclusively on him. If you stick your nose into it, it has the potential to be YOUR fault for anything that happens with his vehicle (and that is FOREVER... 6 months down the road, it gets repo'ed: its because YOU didn't want him to have it, breaks down 30 days after warranty is out: YOU should be happy, because you never wanted wanted him to have it anyway).
If it was me, my 180 would have been: "Wow! Nice car!" and leave it at that.
Now, it could be: "the car WOULD have made everything better, but TO3024 didn't LET me have it".
Same with family things.... invite him, but don't press. Act "AS IF" regardless of his answer to join or stay home.
Is he saying he isn't going back to the C with you for this next mtg, or that he isn't going back at all?
sandi's 37 rules, make a new notepad on your phone and list them, refer to often...that's how I got through.
He said he wasn't going. I didn't push. So I have no idea. He told me to call the counselor tomorrow if I didn't believe him that he was told not to go.
I have no clue... This is the same story as last year. Said he wasnt going to one appointment and he would go alone and then we would schedule one. Well we all know how that turned out
I just said I am not going to call the counselor, I will keep my meeting Thursday and then he said 'he wants to see us alone'
I just said 'okay'
And last night I did congratulate him first. Also this morning when he said bye and I told him to have a good day I did throw in a I'm really happy for you about the car. He said thanks.
I just need to figure out how much is too much or not enough. I don't want to come off as a bitch but I don't want to be a doormat.
You all know I've always been needy and needed some (okay a lot) of hand holding.
We have tickets to take the boys to monster jam with a few other friends and their kids. As far as I know he still plans on going but I'm not going to ask.
Unfortunately, there isn't a rule book that tells you how to handle each interaction. You just have to find what you can live with until one of you is ready to make a decision. Truthfully, this needs to be about you finding your own happiness regardless of what choices your H makes.
I can't tell you what to do, but I can share some things that were successful for me. H and I never separated. We stayed in the same house and same bed through the entire crisis period. It was hard , but not impossible. The following list are the things I think made the biggest impact:
- If H stayed out late, I was in bed before he got home. I didn't text asking where he was or when he'd be home. I pretended I didn't care even if I secretly cried when he wasn't around.
- If he slept in or didn't come home, I'd take our son to breakfast or a park so I wasn't waiting on him. Almost always he would call to see where his family was so he could join us.
- I didn't initiate ILY or kisses. I would reciprocate if he did. That does not mean I ignored him, I just would be cheerful and leave when we were parting without waiting for him to initiate it either. This helped me avoid the awakard is he or isn't he going to moment. Same with ending phone conversations.
- when H told me about something he was frustrated with at work or with me, I'd validate what he said but give no opinion or solution. Simply say "that sounds really frustrating" or " I'm sorry you feel that way"
T, I know this is really hard and I truly feel for what you are going through. You can do this!! I think 30 days is a great goal. Reevaluate how you feel then. Not everything has to be decided today.
Unfortunately, there isn't a rule book that tells you how to handle each interaction. You just have to find what you can live with until one of you is ready to make a decision. Truthfully, this needs to be about you finding your own happiness regardless of what choices your H makes.
Please take this^^^^ in
I can't tell you what to do, but I can share some things that were successful for me. H and I never separated. We stayed in the same house and same bed through the entire crisis period. It was hard , but not impossible. The following list are the things I think made the biggest impact:
- If H stayed out late, I was in bed before he got home. I didn't text asking where he was or when he'd be home. I pretended I didn't care even if I secretly cried when he wasn't around.
- If he slept in or didn't come home, I'd take our son to breakfast or a park so I wasn't waiting on him. Almost always he would call to see where his family was so he could join us.
Similar experiences ^^^. The paradox became that it really did NOT matter to me if h was there. I have no idea if that showed, but the point is, I did not attach MY happiness or mood or "the whole day" on whether he did or said anything.
Eventually h wanted to be included more, but HE had to show up.
MY happiness is and always has been, MY responsibility.
- I didn't initiate ILY or kisses. I would reciprocate if he did. That does not mean I ignored him, I just would be cheerful and leave when we were parting without waiting for him to initiate it either. This helped me avoid the awakard is he or isn't he going to moment. Same with ending phone conversations.
- when H told me about something he was frustrated with at work or with me, I'd validate what he said but give no opinion or solution. Simply say "that sounds really frustrating" or " I'm sorry you feel that way"
^^^validation is Not agreement. It's "I hear you", not "I agree with"...but it matters
T, I know this is really hard and I truly feel for what you are going through. You can do this!! I think 30 days is a great goal. Reevaluate how you feel then. Not everything has to be decided today.
amen
TO,
Speaking only to my situation, as a man who has said that very phrase, it's not you it's my job/money, I was outright lying. I was angry about our R and rather than confronting it, I choose to give the Job/Money avoidance answer.
Thanks Vasapro - not sure what I think or if I believe anything good or bad
Mach- pretty much your last paragraph describes H to a T. That's exactly how he feels, never good enough, etc. I don't want to be that nag either. I want to be fun and have fun and I try to. Then he is always miserable and it in turn really makes my attitude annoyed with him because he's so damn miserable and unhappy.
Vicious circle isn't it?
Maybe try not reacting to his acting "miserable." Just go about your day without letting his mood affect yours.
I struggle finding a balance because at some point we have to be responsible and discuss logistics. I feel i can't vring up things that upset him because of his reaction and how it will make him upset and pull away more. But things (responsibilities, bills, kids, logistics) have to be discussed
Have you never made a decision regarding kids, payed bills, whatever without talking about it?
Right now, maybe these things don't need to be discussed as much as you believe talking about them means you are both "in" the marriage.
It seems when I'm quiet and distance myself it's easier for him to act out
Are you his mother or his W?
TO,
You have had quite a stressful few days. While I am sorry for that, I can see that you have perpetuated quite a bit of it.
I have seen talk here about MLC and mental illness, Mach even gave you his view of MLC, which is one that I happen to agree with. I don’t doubt that your H has some confusion and whatnot going on and he may even be depressed. I can also see how you are contributing to the situation instead of helping it.
Which in turn is working in direct conflict with the goal that you repeatedly say that you want which is a happy marriage with your H.
I am willing to bet right now that the thing that is pissing you off the most is a result of this…
My H came back and chose to come back, crying begging and pleading. He was everything I needed him to be - an open boom, daily texts, loving behavior, tons of physical touch, such open communicAtion about what was going on in his life and the decisions he was making. Then slowly it stops.
He came home. You deemed to give him a second chance. And he is throwing it in your face. Instead of being different forever.
Yes he was everything YOU needed.
Tell me what YOU were for him? Did you suddenly become the loving, doting, understanding W? Did you become the porn queen in the bedroom that most men seem to want? Did you reciprocate to him by meeting his needs or were you just happy that yours were being met?
The road goes both ways.
You nagged him about money that was owed to you that you wanted him to recover. He responded to you and you couldn’t accept his answer at the time so you kept asking (maybe not often in your mind, but I have learned that men don’t appreciate revisiting something they believe they have answered.)
It's hard to move forward from the past when someone acts this way.
No it isn’t. YOUR happiness is not dependent on HIS actions. If you want to move forward from the past, you move forward from it. Period. You change your behavior, your reactions, your actions, and sometimes your beliefs. It isn’t always easy. Believe me, I still have triggers from many many years ago that come knocking on my door once in a while. It happens. It is part of life.
You were called controlling earlier in this thread by another poster and ironically you say your H called you controlling when you confronted him about the car.
Congratulating your H about his purchase, then chastising the way he went about it (ie…I wish you would have let me know…why? So you could text no and argue and he would give in to you and not get the car he wanted?)
Followed up by…
I also told H enough with the games. Just be honest and say what you want. I am not going to fight about it. If it's divorce so be it.
I didn't get a response.
You are lucky. Many people would have walked. I probably would have.
My way of fixing it is the only way I know. I have a notepad on my phone with a bunch of issues I have with myself and with my R with H that I am keeping tabs on so I can bring it up in IC.
So maybe it is time to learn a new way to fix it. Sometimes, simply letting go is the fix.
Get rid of the list with regards to your H. It is scorekeeping. If the issues are big enough to really affect your R, you will remember them.
I don't know what his issues are with the M because he doesn't even know. He couldn't even answer that to the C. According to him he has no issues with me he's just stressed and depressed about his job and finances.
If I don't know what he's thinkig or feeling then how do I fix it. I am not a mind reader.
You are right you are not a mind reader, however you sure spend a lot of time trying to be.
Google controlling behavior. See what comes up. See what sounds familiar.
I could point it out to you but that would be me doing the work for you.
I know I probably seem like I’m picking on you.
I am a little bit.
You have been given a chance that most people here only dream of getting.
You see how you have been wronged, how you were the victim, and those beliefs were encouraged in previous threads. I am sorry that happened.
It’s time to stop being the victim. Time to stop feeling like your H owes you something.
Db or not. That is up to you.
One thing I can promise you is that you are never going to talk your way out of something you acted your way into.
Cat I will touch more on everything in a bit but we had sex almost every day, I reciprocated his love and affection.
The list I made is for me ... For bringing up in IC so that I can remmeber some of the things that bother me because a lot of times I forget things easily. H knows of no list and I normally am not a list maker - I don't even make one for groceries
I busted my Ass too when H came back besdies what was portrayed or relayed.
Controlling would be asking H where he was all the time, texting him repeatedly, wanting to know ehere he is when he comes home late every weeknight. I would have made him change his phone number and get on our old phone account so I could Check his records if need be like we both agreed on in MC. Instead he came up with excuses why he couldn't - which ended up being my fault according to him. I asked to be included about the car ... No he doesn't need my permission nor would I say yes or no but to make a large purchase we had discussed in counseling at the C recommendation to talk with each other on purchases over 200.
Everyone welcomed H with open arms. His needs that I know of, from what he had told me, were met. He comes home as he pleases. I do 95% of childcare. I take the kids to school everything g is taken care of including dinner for him when he gets home on the days I'm off. He doesn't do laundry or lift a finger in or outside this house. On the days I work my father watches the boys and takes care of the house while we work. Short of that I don't know what more he wants. I don't even ask for help with the kids anymore because it to me is a waste of time. He sleeps in and doesn't drive our oldest to school like
He used to. If I did ask he would say he needed to get to work so I stopped asking.
The money situation involves H, it's his boss- I just the check signer. He is just as involved in it and told me since October he would take care of it so the last few weeks I have been asking about it since it's been a few months now with no results and we could use the money to complete our bathroom that had to be gutted for the hot water repair.
Am I perfect? Nope.. But H comes and goes as he pleases, does want he wants, is not active in this M unless he needs something. I'm choosing to let it go and do. nothing.
I'm not his mother... His behavior last night was that of a child acting out in a store. I'm
Not talking to you and that's it. He cannot have a conversation when it doesn't yield the results he wants. He has no problem telling me things and expecting
Me to listen (which i do) but whenever the tables are turned one calm sentence is arguing.
You would walk away f someone asked you to stop playing games? Sleeping with your phone In your pocket after you had an affair, coming home late, showing up with a new car after you couldn't even make your half of the house payment?
Was it the right time to ask? No.
His answer of controlling is whenever he hears what he doesn't want to hear. I feel I've been pretty understanding given everything that's gone on during when he came back. I hadn't brought up the affair besides when we wer going to marriage counseling and discussing it with MC
Feel free to pick on me all you want, no problems here
And H does owe me something - his word. He should be just as active in this marriage or at least tell me what he needs from me. When he keeps telling me it's not me and he's jjst stressed and doesn't know its hard to fix. He can't even give the C an answer.
I think I deserve to be told what he needs if he is going to be angry with me for not meeting his needs.
He used to feel I didn't support him in his job. He wanted to start up his own business. I have been telling him
Since octoberwe should sell some things and he should take the money to start it up.
He says no, he doesn't want to. Its like no matter what I can't make him
Happy. I offer something he said he wanted then it's no. It's like he just brings things up to have something to hate me over
So in conclusion - I am letting go and doing nothing.
I feel better about it and have re-read sandi's rules. I am by no means perfect and do have a lot of things to own on my own but there are some things I will just have to agree to disagree on. It's easy to read over the Internet and think you know a situation based on what is typed but completely different living it in person. You all only get my POV on this thread so I understand that is difficult as well. There's always three sides so I keep that in mind as well.
I am here to work on myself and am working on letting go and no reacting.
So on that note less typing... more doing nothing.
Thanks everyone for your words of wisdom.
And as always sorry for the scattered responses. I only use my phone so it's hard to keep an entire thought sometimes
TO,
A few things then im going to bed.
Where you are...I was, less one child. I was your age. I had a H who wanted D, until one day he simply didnt. And there was no discussing it. And mine was mean too. Believe me, you dont have that market cornered.
After reconciliation and another bomb years later, I was finally able to see things differently. To see what i could have done differently. So please dont ever think because its the internet that people dont understand.
during your period of doing nothing...seriously google controlling behaviors. What you think they are and what they actually are may surprise you.
and in your reading...start with chapter 12 (in my copy) of his needs, her needs...men need admiration...
i know, sounds like some antiquated idea from the 50's when women were still subserviant....
guess what? Our grandmothers and greatgrandmothers understood this concept...something womens liberation has stolen from us.
I am not your husband and what I went through isn't the same. But I can tell you how I felt, acted, and how it played out.
In 2011 I went through a MLC. We had just had our 3rd child and I felt just as Mach1 described. I gave up my dreams to give to a woman to have a marriage, and instead of trying to be a wife to me she devoted 100% to being a mom. Classic sweatpants/out of shape/no date nights, etc, etc.
I was more frustrated than I could put in to words. My explanation to my best friend is that I felt like I was single, only I couldn't date other women, had no free time, and had to pay 100% of my income for child support. Pretty raw deal.
When I brought it up to my W it was like she couldn't hear me. The same way you may feel completely dismissed or ignored, that was how I felt from my W. She saw things the way she saw them, and I felt my needs and my wants were treated like a kid wanting to buy every toy at a toy store. "Mom knows what's best".
I felt the MLC come on. I began to get attracted to another woman at work. I was emotionally bankrupt from my M and wanted to leave.
But I KNEW I was going through a MLC, and I KNEW that at some point I'd regret those choices, so I switched positions at work, told her how I was feeling, and tried to enlist her help to improve the problems between us. I had specific things that I told her were making things almost unlivable and wanted to get professional help with her to see if we could find a way to get through it.
I felt like it was talking to a rock. It was very clear that nothing would change. I was completely trapped. Take it or leave it. I couldn't accept leaving it. And I couldn't take it.
It got to the point I was DEFEATED. I pulled way back. It hurt too much to interact with her. I was extremely hurt that she would watch me bleeding and not care. I was resentful that as long as she got the paycheck I provided and the male role model for her kids she wanted she didn't care about what I needed. I was so frustrated the only way I could cope was to retreat into a shell, go to work, do my hobbies, talk to my friends, hang with my kids, and keep walking forward.
We didn't talk for about 6 months. I didn't want to leave my M. What I wanted was my W to realize the severity of the situation. Occasionally this was resentment/punishing behavior, but for the most part it was defeat, I didn't know how to interact with her in a way that didn't leave me absolutely soul crushed.
I knew I had my own issues to work on, but I was stuck there as well. I had read a lot of books, gone to an IC, and journaled a lot about it. Finally I just needed a break. I didn't have an A, I didn't DO anything. I just needed to do my own thing for a while and try to let the pain stop a bit. I really didn't want to leave the M, I was hoping we could work it out at some point, but I just didn't know how. I was still trying to figure it out but hoped at some point she'd do the same.
Instead she dropped the bomb. She said she couldn't live like that anymore, and gave me a WAW speech.
I was heartbroken and angry. Heartbroken because I loved her. Angry because I coped with unbelievable amounts of pain over the last 3 years and continued to stay the course believing we could work it out. If I knew she was going to give up I wish it had been years ago. But she waited until she had the 3 children she wanted, she raised them to the age of 4 and they were starting school, and it was convenient to leave. I feel like she never wanted to be a W, she just needed my sperm, a few years as a home maker, and a lock on the childsupport.
That's fine. Didn't mean to make this about my sitch. But when I hear you talk about your H, I see in him some of the same behavior. Feeling defeated. Like there's no way to make it work. Not wanting to leave, but not seeing a way to win.
You want him to rise up and be a person you can live with. He's wanting you to do the same.
Now, in your situation I'm not saying that's fair. I'm not saying that's right. I'm not suggesting you're not already bending over backwards, or that he doesn't have some serious changes to make. I'm just telling you what I see.
It would be a tragic misunderstanding for you to interpret his pulling back as being uncommitted to an M. As far as I can see, his still BEING there is showing a LOT of commitment to the M. Even at this moment I don't know if I could've done anything differently at the time, but I do believe if my W hadn't walked out we maybe could've found our way through it.
As it is I'm ok. I've looked in the mirror and seen my faults. Some I've changed, some I'll have to manage even though I'm human and will never be perfect. I hope to someday find a woman that is willing to put in the work in an M instead of walking away. If my problems are too much for a woman to handle then I'll keep trying to grow and keep being appreciative of what I do have in my life.
So this spot stinks, and I'm sorry. But I would encourage you to look at the pain YOU'RE going through dealing with this sitch as being as temporary as going through a MLC yourself. It won't always be like this. Trust me, he can't live like this forever either.
So I'd say don't use his behavior or your feelings as a reason to force any life changing decisions. And try to understand what he's feeling that he feels is forcing him to pull back this much. If you say there's no reason for him to do so, in a way that's almost minimizing how he feels. He's obviously suffering and pulling back, you think he likes this? To HIM something's causing enough pain to try to escape the situation.
I agree that the car is pushing your buttons, maybe to get you to diagnose him as MLC so he can tell himself you don't get it and justify behavior he knows is childish. Whatever. It's a car. I don't see it as being as important as an M.
LONG RAMBLING POST BUT LET ME ASK YOU THIS: If you and he could put the whole thing on hold and his heart could talk honestly to yours, do you know what he'd say he needed from you to feel happy in the M? NOW- you already know this part and are doing A/B/C about that so let me ask you the follow up: WHY WOULD HE SAY THAT'S STILL NOT WORKING FOR HIM?
T0, I'm sorry you're there. I wish it was easier. I wish he was stronger. I wish M's were easier. But I also wish my W had asked those questions instead of leaving. I was prepared to give her another 40 years of love if we could've found a way through that. She gave up on me because she felt I was being childish or abusive. No one wins.
Again, I'm not the expert, I'm the one going through a D with my own problems. But if any of my failed M or any of my rambling does anything for you please take it. If not I hope you know I'm not judging or blaming. Just hoping you can do better than me and my STBX did.
Zues -
Thank you for sharing your story and don't feel like its a hijack. It is helpful former to have a male perspective as well. I know that my H feels the way you describe. I just don't know how to fix it. I do appreciate him. I have told him more so than ever since R because I specifically remember Woundedfool telling me during S to use the word appreciate so he hears it.
I need/want him to step up and be the man. Do you think I like asking about the money from his boss? Absolutely not. I wish he would take care of it and I didn't have to get involved. But he hasn't so I felt I needed to step in especially since he's talking of leaving the place. But trust me I do not want to be the man in the R I want my H to take charge. I am fine with that. I don't want all the responsibility I don't want to nag him or have to ask him to take care of things. Before he used to say he wanted to help with the bills because he felt I controlled all the bills. So he took over a few ... We had late payments on every single one. Sorry I'm blabbering. My point is I would
Be so happy if he told me what he needed but I dont. I know there are things I can fix as Cat has pointed out but in the longterm I want to know what he needs from me to be happy.
I do want him to be happy. I want him to look forward to coming home. I don't want him to have to be stressed or depressed all the time. I wish he could talk to me before he got into such a deep place.
I have commited to doing nothing but sometimes I fear that H will take it as me giving up on him.
Thank you ... I hope for the best for you. These things change everyday.
I know that my H feels the way you describe. I just don't know how to fix it. I do appreciate him. I have told him more so than ever since R because I specifically remember Woundedfool telling me during S to use the word appreciate so he hears it.
It is NOT your job, to "fix" it...
And I can assure you, that you, just "telling" him that you appreciate him, means very little to him right now. Because your ACTIONS, do not say that to him...
I need/want him to step up and be the man.
No, I don't think that you do.
I think that you want him to "step up" and be the man that YOU tell him to be....not the man that HE needs to be, for himself...
And as long as you keep arguing that point with him, you are doing more damage than you are good.
Do you think I like asking about the money from his boss? Absolutely not. I wish he would take care of it and I didn't have to get involved. But he hasn't so I felt I needed to step in especially since he's talking of leaving the place.
Still, YOUR fix, for his problem.
But trust me I do not want to be the man in the R I want my H to take charge. I am fine with that. I don't want all the responsibility I don't want to nag him or have to ask him to take care of things. Before he used to say he wanted to help with the bills because he felt I controlled all the bills. So he took over a few ... We had late payments on every single one. Sorry I'm blabbering.
Anytime, someone tells me to "trust" them, it sends up some red flags for me.
So, I "trust" , that although you don't want to be the Man, or know how to be the Man. You can still find the time to tell him how to be the man....
My point is I would Be so happy if he told me what he needed but I dont. I know there are things I can fix as Cat has pointed out but in the longterm I want to know what he needs from me to be happy.
He has told you what he needs, it just doesn't "fit" with your version of how he should be the "man"
I do want him to be happy. I want him to look forward to coming home. I don't want him to have to be stressed or depressed all the time. I wish he could talk to me before he got into such a deep place.
My guess is, that he DID tell you, and you weren't interested in listening, because it didn't jive with what you wanted to hear...
I have commited to doing nothing but sometimes I fear that H will take it as me giving up on him.
It's not about doing nothing, and I haven't read here that anyone told you to "do nothing".
What I HAVE seen, is that you are more willing to defend your stance, that you don't really ever hear what he has to say at all.
And before you tell me that I am wrong, you have done that with anyone that goes against you here, with strangers, that you don't know, and aren't overly comfortable with.
So I can't imagine how that could lessen any, with him, the person that you are very comfortable with.
So maybe, instead of your do nothing mantra...
Maybe you should just think about achieving some goals for the week...
STFU-Understand that no matter how hard you think that you can, you will never understand him until you can "hear" what he is saying. And you can't really hear him, as long as you are talking, and thinking of your next defense, while he is speaking.
Make a list- Instead of making a list of wrongs, make a list of things that YOU can do differently, and a list of what is working.
Communication styles- Understand how you communicate, and where your styles clash. Would you describe yourself as an extrovert ? Is he also an extrovert, or an introvert ? Two very different styles there, and they communicate very differently.
So yea, not "do nothing"....
Do what works instead...
Also, you are gonna need a new thread...this one is gonna lock soon...
New threads typically indicate new growth, and I hope that is the case for you...
I'm not going to argue about it
Thanks for your insight Mach
I'll take my personal growth and take a break as well.
Thanks everyone.
ETA- he actually hasn't told me what he needed/wanted. He withdrew. When I asked him about it he told me it was work. That has been the story. That's ecen his story to the counselor.
T0,
I say this with a lot of love: you are sounding as angry and defensive as you were when you first arrived. Where's that inward-looking, GAL-ing, confident, kick ass mama who just went on with her life despite her H ' s wackiness?
Also, from someone who has been there, if your H does have depression or some other mental illness, he is incapable of fixing it on his own. One of the trademark unfortunate symptoms is an inability to seek out help. I know because it happened to me. My H would say, "you have a good life. Why are you so unhappy all the time?" Or, when I had PPD, "You're crying when I leave in the morning, and you're crying when I come home at night."
Or, when I was trying to find a therapist... I saw one whom I didn't like, and then it was months before I built up the courage to make abother phone call. The thought of sharing my story and my pain, and figuring out the logistics (between work, childcare, insurance) seemed completely impossible.
I think a little compassion can go a long way.
Hey Claire-
I am still that same person I just need to take a break from these boards. I am always so grateful to everyone for their help I just am not in a place to hear all of it right now.
I do feel like Ive tried. I'm not perfect no. I do really feel like I've tried to tell H. Maybe as others say he doesn't feel that way. I thank him often, tell him I appreciate him, yet I'm still in the wrong so I'm at a loss so my do nothing = me STFU. I'm going to go back to my life during BD - I'm taking the second job back and focusing on the boys and I.
The only person that can help H is himself. I can't help him if he cant admit that I'm the problem. I can only work on what I know needs to be fixed on my part and hope that maybe that's something that will help our M.
I feel like I can't come here and post what I really feel because people
Think that's how I'm acting towards my H and I don't want to defend myself anymore.
Claire - how do you show compassion for someone that constantly shuts you out when you try to talk? Or when they say everything is fine they just are stressed about work and finances? It's pretty hurtful that I work OT to pay majority of the bills (and haven't brought it up even after the car) and then he comes home with a 500/month payment. I feel like it's a slap in the face. I'll keep paying his half of the bills so he can buy another car (we have 5 before this car by the way. He has 3 total now - all 2008 or newer). I could see if he *needed* it. In the beginning I told him his debt was his and I wouldn't help so he played 50% but as he withdrew and he said it was because of money I started paying more and more of his bills willingly.
Anyway, I'm sorry to anyone that I have offended. I appreciate everyone's help whether it's what *i* want to hear or not. I take everyone's words and think about each and every one of them.