Pt 3 locked. Time flies when you're having fun
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2520048#Post2520048Last post from previous thread for continuity
To be clear, I haven't asked her to unfriend or block him, at least in the last couple of months. For her to take positive steps like that will require her to decide that it's important enough. She's not there yet.
Ironically, her friending him on FB was one of the first times that cracks started to appear in her fantasy. She started seeing all these pictures of OM and his W together, affectionate comments, etc. She started to realize that OM was married to an actual human being. It spurred her first attempt to go NC with him.
Still not a good idea to keep him on FB. The MC even said something about it last session. It'll be a decision W has to make, though.
To be clear, I haven't asked her to unfriend or block him, at least in the last couple of months. For her to take positive steps like that will require her to decide that it's important enough. She's not there yet.
. . .
Still not a good idea to keep him on FB. The MC even said something about it last session. It'll be a decision W has to make, though.
Yes, that's true.
It's also just as true that YOU get to make a decision, too, and that is: whether or not it works for you to remain in a marriage where your wife is still in contact with her OM.Knowing that second part is what gives us the confidence to properly DB, and lose the overwhelming sense of powerlessness that grips us when we first get bomb-dropped.
Starsky
Yes, that's true. It's also just as true that YOU get to make a decision, too, and that is: whether or not it works for you to remain in a marriage where your wife is still in contact with her OM.
Knowing that second part is what gives us the confidence to properly DB, and lose the overwhelming sense of powerlessness that grips us when we first get bomb-dropped.
Precisely. She's far more afraid of losing me at this point than I am of losing her. It's very obvious in her actions and her rhetoric. Changes the balance of power just a bit.
She's far more afraid of losing me at this point than I am of losing her. It's very obvious in her actions and her rhetoric.
Good. Can give an example?
I was thinking about an incident that happened the other night. We were having an intense but somewhat productive R talk, not spew. She was crying, I was holding her, when she suddenly started talking about how she was in love with OM, and she couldn't feel that way about me.
I immediately moved away from her, and told her in as calm a tone as I could muster, that I'm not going to waste my time pursuing a woman who clearly doesn't want me. If that was truly how she felt, then I wanted her to let me go so I can build my own life. I'm not going to be there keeping her bed warm and holding her while she professes her love for someone else (I don't really consider it "love", but that was the language I used). No tears on my part, no self-pity, just "if that's reality, then let's recognize it and move on".
She immediately back tracked on a lot of her statements, started talking about good things about our relationship, and how she wanted to continue counseling. I should also mention that I got sexually attacked later that night.
As soon as I present the possibility of me moving on, she starts to cling.
Rzr,
Have you ever researched the push/pull dynamic?
Check out this link; I found this post a long time ago, and it helped me a lot:
Pursuit and Distance It was from the mlc forum - and mentions "mlc partner," or something like that - but "the dance" applies to anyone here.
Check out this link; I found this post a long time ago, and it helped me a lot:
Pursuit and Distance It was from the mlc forum - and mentions "mlc partner," or something like that - but "the dance" applies to anyone here.
I have read this and I do see the dynamic going on here. I haven't applied everything listed there, but the things I have applied do seem to work. As soon as I distance myself in any way, she tries to close the distance.
Thank you for posting that link Train. I see now this push/pull dynamic is what I've been allowing with my W. Very helpful.
You bet, HP. It was a real eye-opener for me when I needed it.
It's so counter-intuitive, isn't it, y'all? Bass ackwards. But it works.
One of the more difficult things I deal with right now is never really knowing how I feel. Why am I not angrier? Why am I not sadder? I feel mentally tougher and more positive than I did 6 months ago, but how much of it is real and how much is just what I tell myself to pump myself up?
W was cuddling with me last night on the bed. She was apologizing for all the things she's done to mess up our life. She asked me why I loved her. I told her my reasons. I asked her why she loved me. She said (among other things) because it was because I was where she belonged.
I should have been elated to hear those words. Part of her WAW script over the last few months has been that she didn't know where she belonged.
I didn't feel anything. Why not? Did I detach too well? Have I lost my connection to her? Am I just emotionally exhausted? Or am I just wary of what she tells me, the good and the bad? I know she'll have another panic and be back to the same spew.
Ran across an old Foreigner song that I had frankly forgotten about. It resonates a little more now....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgRP1b0cNU0
W was cuddling with me last night on the bed. She was apologizing for all the things she's done to mess up our life. She asked me why I loved her. I told her my reasons. I asked her why she loved me. She said (among other things) because it was because I was where she belonged.
Well I can see how that answer could be a little less than satisfying. Just the other night she was saying she still loved OM and couldn't feel that way toward you. No wonder your emotions don't jump into high gear.
Starsky has a good script when a WAW is saying similar things, ILY, etc. "I really wish I could believe you".
IMO, it is not the right timing to be reassuring her now much you love her.......and certainly not asking how she loves you (considering she was just professing love for OM). She is still in WAW mode. You said you see her draw in when you pull back.
Is next week the big date with OM?
it probably wasn't the best time, it was an offhand question that I answered. I didn't dwell on the subject.
OM is due in town next week for business but there's been no mention of them getting together. If she comes up with a sudden 'girl's night' in the next three nights I have ways of verifying her story.
Interesting thing came up in MC today. We both mentioned that our R discussions seem to just go around and around with no resolution and no new revelations. We've pretty much just exhausted what we can say about our core issues. The MC suggested that we break the cycle and stop talking about our issues. When the urge comes up, we need to find something to do together instead. Does not having R talks right now seem like a good idea? I've never felt like R talks are pursuing, because it seems like that's all my W ever wants to talk about.
Rzr
W is looking for comfort and reassurance I feel. All well and good.
Go GAL make new memories with W. Can you both go away when OM is around this time?
Have you planned an activity for this time, or are you sitting ruminating?
Vanilla
I knew it!!!!
OM is in town. In the midst of our R talk tonight, she broached the subject of seeing him again after hours, to get more clarity. Not that there were any plans, just a "what if." I responded with broaching the subject of separating our finances and me moving out.
She's not talking to me at the moment. Oh well.
This woman seems to think that because of the mistakes I made in our marriage that I should just stand by while she goes out with OM. Unbelievable.
Rzr I'm sorry she's continuing to disappoint you. I always look for your updates hoping she will really and finally come through for you. I really hope it doesn't come to you moving out... but I know if you have to you will and you will be much better off. Stay strong and keep going.
She's talking to me again, and hasn't brought it back up. Like I said before, it was more of a what if than a demand. She may be planning to sneak away and try to see him, and I can't really stop that. But she knows where I stand. We'll see what happens.
My experience is that you have to let the other relationship play out, as painful as it is. I'm a strict stander and I like the zip-the-lips approach. I know I will know when he is actually back in his own head, and until then I assume that all kinds of darkness is consuming him on every front, that one included, trust God and just pray that hedge of thorns over and over and over. But I cry a lot, it is so so painful.
I knew it!!!!
OM is in town. In the midst of our R talk tonight, she broached the subject of seeing him again after hours, to get more clarity. Not that there were any plans, just a "what if." I responded with broaching the subject of separating our finances and me moving out.
She's not talking to me at the moment. Oh well.
This woman seems to think that because of the mistakes I made in our marriage that I should just stand by while she goes out with OM. Unbelievable.
Good job. She may continue to test you; stand firm!!
Oddly, she may actually draw COMFORT and SECURITY from your strong boundaries, Rzr. Much like children, who may wail and moan only to know that deep down their parents love them enough to be strict with them.
Take the short-term hit in favor of the potential long-term gain.
Starsky
Good job. She may continue to test you; stand firm!!
Oddly, she may actually draw COMFORT and SECURITY from your strong boundaries, Rzr. Much like children, who may wail and moan only to know that deep down their parents love them enough to be strict with them.
Take the short-term hit in favor of the potential long-term gain.
Starsky
I'm a little puzzled by her behavior. The silent treatment lasted about 10 minutes, then she was back to talking with me like it had never come up. She even curled up with me when we went to sleep. It's not like her to back down so quickly. When this subject came up a few weeks ago, it resulted in a nasty fight.
I'd like to think that she drew some security off my firm stand, but I'm suspicious enough of her to think that she may have just decided to try and get together with him behind my back.
I guess that's just a risk I have to take. It's not like I can control her.
Rzr
It can be peaceful, just state the boundary is there and then STFU and normalise.
"W you know where My boundary is on this." Then walk away, no discussion or argument.
V
Rzr
It can be peaceful, just state the boundary is there and then STFU and normalise.
"W you know where My boundary is on this." Then walk away, no discussion or argument.
V
And that's basically how it went. The only thing I added was that no spouse on the planet would think that going out to see OM would be acceptable.
She shut down after that, didn't talk to me for a few mminutes, and then we resumed our evening. I'm proud of the way I handled it, just found her reaction a little strange. She normally pushes back way more than that.
I'm proud of the way I handled it, just found her reaction a little strange. She normally pushes back way more than that.
So, she may have performed a 180 on some of her old behaviors?
I'm sure it's tough with the hurt you have felt, especially as the trust is re-established. When I first read this, it seemed like she may have thought about what she said and realized that she was wrong for suggesting it. Then she carried on, noting a boundary.
That's what I hope has happened too. Even as lost as she is, surely some part of her realizes that I would never be OK with her seeing OM again.
This is mind reading, but I think on some level she thinks I should just let her do anything she wants without consequences because of the things I did wrong on our marriage.
"This is mind reading, but I think on some level she thinks I should just let her do anything she wants without consequences because of the things I did wrong on our marriage."
That's probably what she's thinking.
You did really well Rzr.
V
You are doing great! Hang in there.
I doubt you will ever be able to think or even guess to what's going on in her head.
Don't get excited over anything just yet. Of course she knew it wasn't alright with you for her to see OM. She wanted to know what you would do....if anything. Now comes the test.
BTW, stop having R talks with her that are not inside the counselor's office. You said yourself, they are not accomplishing anything. Besides, she's still not in piecing. She wants to see OM outside of work!
I doubt you will ever be able to think or even guess to what's going on in her head.
Don't get excited over anything just yet. Of course she knew it wasn't alright with you for her to see OM. She wanted to know what you would do....if anything. Now comes the test.
BTW, stop having R talks with her that are not inside the counselor's office. You said yourself, they are not accomplishing anything. Besides, she's still not in piecing. She wants to see OM outside of work!
The MC suggested we stop having those R talks also, for the same reason. It makes for uncomfortable silences at times since that seems to be all she wants to talk about, but oh well. I see small shifts in her rhetoric, she talks about getting on with life, etc. I know better than to put too much stock in anything, but it is a shift.
OM came and went without them having any meaningful conversation either during or after business hours. If he follows true to form he should be coming back in 8 - 12 weeks. Her reaction to not being able to talk to him was interesting..."It is what it is" was her exact quote. Not that I believe much of what she says, but it was awfully level-headed, especially for her. She's not exactly exuberant but she's not curled up on the bed crying either.
Before I forget...GAL update! I've been looking for jobs at a different company (same geographic area)...finally have a phone interview scheduled for next week.
"It is what it is" was her exact quote. Not that I believe much of what she says, but it was awfully level-headed, especially for her. She's not exactly exuberant but she's not curled up on the bed crying either.
Well, my first thought is that OM may have been the one to by-pass that little meeting where she wanted clarity. But I hope you are correct in what you see. Maybe both of you passed your tests. She tested you, and I
know she was tested.
It will be good if OM will stay gone for at least 12 weeks. It took like 4 months of
hard withdrawals for me. And that was with absolutely NC with OM.
Well, my first thought is that OM may have been the one to by-pass that little meeting where she wanted clarity. But I hope you are correct in what you see. Maybe both of you passed your tests. She tested you, and I know she was tested.
It will be good if OM will stay gone for at least 12 weeks. It took like 4 months of hard withdrawals for me. And that was with absolutely NC with OM.
It didn't occur to me, but it's entirely possible that OM was the one uncomfortable with the idea of meeting up after hours. It's not like he didn't have the opportunity to set something up.
I see subtle changes in W's rhetoric. She talks more about improving our lives. Her words. She said (and acted like) she was somewhat relieved when OM left town.
It seems that she's tired of feeling the way she does and want's to get her life back. I hope that's the case. I said in MC a few days ago that my goal was no longer to save the marriage per se, but rather "clarity" about where we're supposed to be. She admitted to me that hearing that was a wake-up call to her. It's almost like it never crossed her mind that I could be the one to decide our marriage wasn't working instead of her. She point blank told me that she was frightened by that prospect. Whether she's actually afraid of losing me, or just afraid of being alone not on her terms, that's anyone's guess. It was my way of telling her that I've dropped my attachment to any one outcome.
My struggle right now is to NOT attack the OM. I've been very, very bad at that. It seems like whenever he came up I just lost control of my tongue. I know that for us to succeed I'm going to need to find a way to put that aspect of our issues in the past. My open hatred for OM was starting to eat me up and it was putting a wedge between me and W.
She's still unhappy. She's very open about being lost and lonely. The difference now is that she's finally acknowledging that I might feel the same way. It took only four months for her to figure out that I have feelings too
Geez. Got dragged into another R talk. She's overwhelmed with our problems, she's panicky, etc.
She reiterated yet again how she doesn't trust me, isn't in love with me, and can't get it back. I asked her if that was how she truly felt, the why was she sticking around? She basically told me it was because she couldn't take care of herself and didn't have any better prospects.
I got mildly annoyed at D15 because she wanted me to drop everything and drive her across town to hang with a friend. W said I got irritated because I resented being a father.
I am so sick of spew
This may be a better question for the men. Is it common to feel like you have no libido when you're going through a sitch like this. I think Amy Adams could come sit on my lap right now and it wouldn't do anything for me.
Not me. I'm feeling rather froggy myself!
Froggy. LOL. I never heard that one before
It's almost like it never crossed her mind that I could be the one to decide our marriage wasn't working instead of her. She point blank told me that she was frightened by that prospect. Whether she's actually afraid of losing me
Have you listened to anything Starsky or I have said? JK, we just happen to bring that point up quite often to newcomers.
Geez. Got dragged into another R talk. She's overwhelmed with our problems, she's panicky, etc.
She reiterated yet again how she doesn't trust me, isn't in love with me, and can't get it back. I asked her if that was how she truly felt, the why was she sticking around? She basically told me it was because she couldn't take care of herself and didn't have any better prospects
.
I don't know what to tell you that hasn't already been said. STFU with the R talks! What does it take to get that through you skull? And stop blaming her for "dragging" you into it. She didn't force you to say anything.
Look, she is probably feeling a bit panicky and doubting that she made the right decision about OM (if she did indeed make it). She is trying to verbally hash it out by bringing up the same old stuff. I told you she would be depressed. SHE'S DEPRESSED! What the heck did you expect, a party? She wants to know she's made the right choice. So act like the right choice!
I know exactly how she feels. I felt the same way about my H and had plenty of doubts, too. I had no positive or good feelings toward him. I had no hope in the MR getting better, but I could not make it on my own financially. I felt trapped and couldn't breathe. Baically felt my life was over. In other words, I was not a happy camper! However, I was here.
Your W is still there. .
This may be a better question for the men. Is it common to feel like you have no libido when you're going through a sitch like this. I think Amy Adams could come sit on my lap right now and it wouldn't do anything for me.
I don't think Betty White would be safe on my lap right now. My sitch is different though. Seems like a good topic for a man cave.
Rzr
Can say very little to help, as I have no experience of piecing.
But the one thing I can go back to, like an old refrain is STFU about OM.
Vanilla
Rzr
Can say very little to help, as I have no experience of piecing.
But the one thing I can go back to, like an old refrain is STFU about OM.
Vanilla
And you're absolutely right. I have been VERY bad about that. I'm not violent or hateful by nature, but I've never experienced the depths of hatred I have for OM...and their A was tame in the grand scheme of things. Just taking it a day at a time right now. Today I haven't mentioned OM at all. One day down.
This may be a better question for the men. Is it common to feel like you have no libido when you're going through a sitch like this. I think Amy Adams could come sit on my lap right now and it wouldn't do anything for me.
I don't think Betty White would be safe on my lap right now. My sitch is different though. Seems like a good topic for a man cave.
Betty White! Love it.
Truth be told, even my W could bring me alive right now. I just have times where it's hard to imagine.
It's almost like it never crossed her mind that I could be the one to decide our marriage wasn't working instead of her. She point blank told me that she was frightened by that prospect. Whether she's actually afraid of losing me
Have you listened to anything Starsky or I have said? JK, we just happen to bring that point up quite often to newcomers.
Geez. Got dragged into another R talk. She's overwhelmed with our problems, she's panicky, etc.
She reiterated yet again how she doesn't trust me, isn't in love with me, and can't get it back. I asked her if that was how she truly felt, the why was she sticking around? She basically told me it was because she couldn't take care of herself and didn't have any better prospects
.
I don't know what to tell you that hasn't already been said. STFU with the R talks! What does it take to get that through you skull? And stop blaming her for "dragging" you into it. She didn't force you to say anything.
Look, she is probably feeling a bit panicky and doubting that she made the right decision about OM (if she did indeed make it). She is trying to verbally hash it out by bringing up the same old stuff. I told you she would be depressed. SHE'S DEPRESSED! What the heck did you expect, a party? She wants to know she's made the right choice. So act like the right choice!
I know exactly how she feels. I felt the same way about my H and had plenty of doubts, too. I had no positive or good feelings toward him. I had no hope in the MR getting better, but I could not make it on my own financially. I felt trapped and couldn't breathe. Baically felt my life was over. In other words, I was not a happy camper! However, I was here.
Your W is still there. .
OK, I needed that 2x4 now, Sandi.
I know all this. I was venting more than anything. It's just frustrating.
I don't really know where we are at this point. To a certain extent, we seem to be moving past the A. I know he's in her head too much, but they're not communicating. There was very little conversation when he was in town this week, and none after hours. Neither one of them made any effort to connect while he was here. She swears that he's in the "friend zone". Whatever. But it's not like I can disprove that in any way.
So, we're kind of in limbo. It doesn't necessarily feel like we're in piecing (I guess it depends on the day). The therapist advised us to stop getting into R talks, but that fell flat with her. She's afraid that if we stop talking about our issues then we (meaning me) will fall back into old habit patterns and go back to our bad old life. As if I'm that weak. To her, R talks make her feel closer to me...I don't know how that can be; we usually end up angry at each other. I usually come out of those feeling less optimistic.
I expected her to be depressed; Your last paragraph, Sandi, captures her rhetoric perfectly. She doesn't see anything good about staying with me, but she doesn't see anything good being on her own, either. She actually thinks that she's too old (at 43!) to attract a man and find that connection she says is dead with me.
So, what I'm doing...
I want my life back. I've stopped spending every evening locked in our room with her, talking in circles. If she wants to lay in there and play on Facebook constantly, that's her decision. But I want to stay busy and keep living. Specifically:
Concentrating on fitness...physical, mental and spiritual.
Working on getting a better job.
Doing better at my current job.
Continuing to build my flight instructing business.
Being with my kids.
Talking to friends.
If she wants to come and spend time with me, she's welcome. But I'm not going to spend every waking moment hanging around her.
I'm trying STFU about OM, which has been a huge challenge for me. My hatred for him is starting to burn me up, and it puts walls between me and W. I know that for our relationship to survive I'll need to put the A behind me sooner or later.
To her, R talks make her feel closer to me...I don't know how that can be; we usually end up angry at each other. I usually come out of those feeling less optimistic.
Before my A, I would do the same thing. I was disparate to feel a connection with my H. We were not meeting each other's emotional needs. The only way I knew to do to fix things was to talk about it. He would clam up and not say a word or look at me, so I would get even more upset b/c I felt he was not cooperating. It certainly was not the response I wanted from him.
I doubt your angry reaction is what your W is seeking. She feels lost and confused. She can't see hope. Remember, she is not the one here on the board, so she doesn't have the toolbox. In a way, with her still going to you to talk, she seems to still be trying to discuss it and find a solution
through the discussion, but IDK. If she wasn't talking about it, I think there would be more to worry about at this particular time.
I think you need to find a better way to respond that won't sound as if you don't care, and won't make you sound angry & cold.
I don't really know where we are at this point. To a certain extent, we seem to be moving past the A. I know he's in her head too much, but they're not communicating.
My OM was in my head for quite some time. She can't just erase him at will. It is part of the grieving and getting over it. Maybe you shouldn't try to gage where you are by your measuring instrument. Like I said, she's still there. Whether you believe she should be doing more or acting better, that is your VP. She is doing the best she can at the moment. Trust me, just staying within the same four walls can be an accomplishment for some WAW'S who have been in an EA.
So, we're kind of in limbo. It doesn't necessarily feel like we're in piecing (I guess it depends on the day).
What does piecing feel like?
The therapist advised us to stop getting into R talks, but that fell flat with her. She's afraid that if we stop talking about our issues then we (meaning me) will fall back into old habit patterns and go back to our bad old life. As if I'm that weak.
Ha! You need to look back at the old threads and see how many men returned to the board saying they fell into old habits after things got better again. It took another bomb for them to get off their lazy a$$es again. So, your W is concerned, and perhaps she has a right to be. After all, just how long have you been this new person? One thing she is not seeing new in you, is how you react to her R talks.
To her, R talks make her feel closer to me...I don't know how that can be; we usually end up angry at each other. I usually come out of those feeling less optimistic.
Seriously? She just told you what it takes for her to feel closer to you.......and what do you do? You discard it b/c it doesn't make sense to you.
I think the woman is craving emotional intimacy and her way of connecting is by talking about the relationship between you. In other words, she wants to hear you talk about her in a positive, loving, and flattering way that will make her feel good, much like you may have done when the R was young. For an example, telling her something about what you thought the first time you saw her. How you felt the first time you started to kiss her. Some of us women like to hear that stuff.
No, she doesn't have good feelings right now, but she is still turning to you, it seems. What if she looked at you pleadingly and said, "Help me. I don't have the strength you do. I am empty and scared. Please be strong enough for both us, until I can get through this stinking withdrawal and depression". I think that's what she is really trying to say, but she isn't using the correct words.
Right now, both of you have raw emotions and it may hard for you to know how to swing the conversation around to where it would sound more loving. How can you build her up without telling her what YOU think SHE should DO? That is not building her up, that is trying to fix her the way you see it.
I suggest the next time you feel her dragging you into a R talk, you just concentrate on not replying with a tart answer or getting angry. Just listen. Let her express her concerns. As 25 yrs says, listen like a lover would. Do you have any idea what that would be like?
I want my life back. I've stopped spending every evening locked in our room with her, talking in circles. If she wants to lay in there and play on Facebook constantly, that's her decision. But I want to stay busy and keep living.
Fine, then don't spend every evening locked in your room with her. It doesn't sound like it was very pleasant talking in circles (which sounds to me that you were do way too much arguing with her and trying to get her to see things your way). But when you are around her, be charming, fun, interesting, happy, etc. Those are qualities that are contagious and lift people's spirit.
I am sure some of us could help guide you in some of those tougher conversations. With some WAW's, I could see cutting her off and walking out of the room and announcing you are not doing it again (R talk). HP's WAW is a good example. But I don't see your W being like his. You can correct me if I am wrong.
If she wants to come and spend time with me, she's welcome. But I'm not going to spend every waking moment hanging around her.
Well thank goodness for that! Why would you believe you should have spent every waking moment hanging around her? Ever heard of giving space to breathe?
Rzr,
Sandis advice is better than i'm going to give so please concentrate on that.
If you can find some time to watch a couple of you tube videos on non-violent communication. Its basically about trying to listen past the judgement and blame and all the other stuff to hear the feelings.
and remember there fundamentally nearly everything is driven by one of two emotions - love or fear. right now your wife is afraid, really afraid. what would you do for your daughters if they were afraid?
To her, R talks make her feel closer to me...I don't know how that can be; we usually end up angry at each other. I usually come out of those feeling less optimistic.
Before my A, I would do the same thing. I was disparate to feel a connection with my H. We were not meeting each other's emotional needs. The only way I knew to do to fix things was to talk about it. He would clam up and not say a word or look at me, so I would get even more upset b/c I felt he was not cooperating. It certainly was not the response I wanted from him.
I doubt your angry reaction is what your W is seeking. She feels lost and confused. She can't see hope. Remember, she is not the one here on the board, so she doesn't have the toolbox. In a way, with her still going to you to talk, she seems to still be trying to discuss it and find a solution
through the discussion, but IDK. If she wasn't talking about it, I think there would be more to worry about at this particular time.
I think you need to find a better way to respond that won't sound as if you don't care, and won't make you sound angry & cold.
This is true. I'm trying so hard to not sound needy that I end up coming off as cold, which is certainly NOT my intent. A lot of her rhetoric right now consists of blaming me for the state of our marriage, and even the A to a certain extent. My knee-jerk reaction is to defend myself, which makes me sound, well, needy. And angry.
My OM was in my head for quite some time. She can't just erase him at will. It is part of the grieving and getting over it. Maybe you shouldn't try to gage where you are by your measuring instrument. Like I said, she's still there. Whether you believe she should be doing more or acting better, that is your VP. She is doing the best she can at the moment. Trust me, just staying within the same four walls can be an accomplishment for some WAW'S who have been in an EA.
The therapist advised us to stop getting into R talks, but that fell flat with her. She's afraid that if we stop talking about our issues then we (meaning me) will fall back into old habit patterns and go back to our bad old life. As if I'm that weak.
Ha! You need to look back at the old threads and see how many men returned to the board saying they fell into old habits after things got better again. It took another bomb for them to get off their lazy a$$es again. So, your W is concerned, and perhaps she has a right to be. After all, just how long have you been this new person? One thing she is not seeing new in you, is how you react to her R talks.
I completely (when not in the heat of battle) see where she's coming from. I know, and have never denied, that I helped get our marriage to this vulnerable state. I just draw the line at taking responsibility for the A itself. She doesn't have a good enough track record with me to see that we won't slide back to the bad old days. I think she's conveniently forgetting a lot of our good times too, but pointing those things out doesn't do a lot of good.
To her, R talks make her feel closer to me...I don't know how that can be; we usually end up angry at each other. I usually come out of those feeling less optimistic.
Seriously? She just told you what it takes for her to feel closer to you.......and what do you do? You discard it b/c it doesn't make sense to you.
I think the woman is craving emotional intimacy and her way of connecting is by talking about the relationship between you. In other words, she wants to hear you talk about her in a positive, loving, and flattering way that will make her feel good, much like you may have done when the R was young. For an example, telling her something about what you thought the first time you saw her. How you felt the first time you started to kiss her. Some of us women like to hear that stuff.
No, she doesn't have good feelings right now, but she is still turning to you, it seems. What if she looked at you pleadingly and said, "Help me. I don't have the strength you do. I am empty and scared. Please be strong enough for both us, until I can get through this stinking withdrawal and depression". I think that's what she is really trying to say, but she isn't using the correct words.
Right now, both of you have raw emotions and it may hard for you to know how to swing the conversation around to where it would sound more loving. How can you build her up without telling her what YOU think SHE should DO? That is not building her up, that is trying to fix her the way you see it.
I suggest the next time you feel her dragging you into a R talk, you just concentrate on not replying with a tart answer or getting angry. Just listen. Let her express her concerns. As 25 yrs says, listen like a lover would. Do you have any idea what that would be like?
I wish I knew what that would be like. I think you've hit on a core point. I don't know how to make the conversation more loving, and I do get bogged down in defending myself, even though one of the first things I learned from DB was that this doesn't work. This is where I get frustrated. I know that DB involves NOT getting into unproductive R talks. I don't want to ignore her; I want to engage with her, but without getting angry or defensive. That was one of the reasons I had to commit to letting my hatred of OM go. My hatred of OM and resentment of W have been getting in the way of me engaging with her productively. How do I talk with her in a way that builds her up when all I hear from her is "this is your fault"? Her rhetoric this week has been mostly angry.
I want my life back. I've stopped spending every evening locked in our room with her, talking in circles. If she wants to lay in there and play on Facebook constantly, that's her decision. But I want to stay busy and keep living.
Fine, then don't spend every evening locked in your room with her. It doesn't sound like it was very pleasant talking in circles (which sounds to me that you were do way too much arguing with her and trying to get her to see things your way). But when you are around her, be charming, fun, interesting, happy, etc. Those are qualities that are contagious and lift people's spirit.
I am sure some of us could help guide you in some of those tougher conversations. With some WAW's, I could see cutting her off and walking out of the room and announcing you are not doing it again (R talk). HP's WAW is a good example. But I don't see your W being like his. You can correct me if I am wrong.
No, cutting her off and walking away would not be the way to go. That would just make her feel more alone.
If she wants to come and spend time with me, she's welcome. But I'm not going to spend every waking moment hanging around her.
Well thank goodness for that! Why would you believe you should have spent every waking moment hanging around her? Ever heard of giving space to breathe?
No, we both needed space to breathe! I want to give her space, but then if I leave her alone too much then I'm ignoring her, she feels disconnected from me, etc. All the usual things. I honestly can't figure out what it is she wants, and it can change several times in a day.
We didn't really have much in the way of R talks this weekend. It was really busy, and she was sick through a lot of it. She was receptive to affection from me...She did want me to curl up with her when we went to sleep last night, so I took that as a good sign.
My relationship goals for the week
1. Not initiate R talks, but engage with her positively when they happen. In other words, try and get my damn ego out of it.
2. Not mention OM unless absolutely necessary. If I do, keep it short and not go off on what a cockroach he is.
Rzr
Can say very little to help, as I have no experience of piecing.
But the one thing I can go back to, like an old refrain is STFU about OM.
Vanilla
And you're absolutely right. I have been VERY bad about that. I'm not violent or hateful by nature, but I've never experienced the depths of hatred I have for OM...and their A was tame in the grand scheme of things. Just taking it a day at a time right now. Today I haven't mentioned OM at all. One day down.
This kind of hate and anger seems to emanate from fear. If you address the fears about OM and reframe it then the hate will dissipate. Either that or as a tactic making OM insignificant to you. OM is insignificant and irrelevant, they are a symptom not a cause.
Rzr you are addressing the cause of the issue, your R with W. In the long run the symptom will dissipate. Like a boil being lanced, and the puss drained away. See alternate image.
Your hate is yours to deal with as is the resentment. Handle this Rzr, you are more than capable as you have shown. Let it go and this will release you in your life and M.
I was asked about my anger by Jim and actually I do not feel that any more. There was a time when I was an angry spitball called screaming banshee, an unpleasant behaviour which did so much damage to me. It had to be released, it had to go, the sense of being right rather than happy had to go. So indeed I let it out of my life, am I irritated and upset sometimes? Oh yes Rzr absolutely but I replaced my anger with my higher power and connection with spirit and love. Now I try to project that as much as I can, still cant do the look of love or listen like a lover, not their yet but I do what I can.
Please try to replace the hate of OM with love for W Rzr, as I know you feel it. And the body can not hold two emotions at once hate will be replaced by the love you feel for W. Tap into the stores of love within you at those moments that hate intrudes and love will win.
Vanilla
Do you mean to tell me this is the first day (so far) that you have not brought up OM to your W? What is wrong with you? Do you want her to move forward, or not? The more you talk about OM, the worse you are making it for both you and W.
Yes, your
ego is the problem here. You want to attack someone, and being a man, you want to strike out at the guy who tried to get your woman. Well, OM is gone and apparently had no interest in starting things back up with your W. So, let it go before you have nobody but yourself to blame when she decides she's had enough. Seriously, I cannot stress enough how much damage you are doing by referring to this guy everyday. Just as you are sick & tired of her blaming you for the A, she's just as fed up with your attack mode of OM. It is a merry-go-round defense that nobody wins.
Just maybe, if you would STFU about OM, she would ease off blaming you for some things. It puts both of you on the defense when this stuff happens. You can see it doesn't work, so you need to stop.
A lot of her rhetoric right now consists of blaming me for the state of our marriage, and even the A to a certain extent. My knee-jerk reaction is to defend myself, which makes me sound, well, needy. And angry.
It should not be a knee-jerk reaction after all this time of having the same R talks. You should know what she's going to do, and you need to respond differently.
I completely (when not in the heat of battle) see where she's coming from. I know, and have never denied, that I helped get our marriage to this vulnerable state. I just draw the line at taking responsibility for the A itself.
Okay then, when she throws blame at your feet, instead of getting angry and blowing up.....tell her it really makes you upset that she feels that way. Tell her that neither of you can go back and undo the things either of you did to get this point. You are sorry for everything you did that made her feel she had to turn to someone other than you. Then ask her what you can do to help both of you heal and get on with making your new MR better.
Whether you want to admit it or not, she turned to OM b/c she wasn't getting what she needed in her MR with you. Did you
force her to meet with him and let things go as far as they did? Not at all. But she feels you are to blame for the
conditions that made her vulnerable to having an A. What you don't seem to get (with your anger directed toward OM) is that she was vulnerable to
any man who said or did just the right thing to fill her EN. B/c her H wasn't doing it. Now
that is what you need to face and to admit.
What about men who have sex outside the M b/c their W cut them off and they weren't getting it at home. Their needs were not met and it left them in a vulnerable condition. Is that an excuse for him to go scr@w around outside of the M? I suppose that could be a topic of debate. Does the W need to take part of the responsibility? Well,
she probably wouldn't think so. But the question is if she isn't doing her part to fulfill his physical/emotional needs in their R.....then is she responsible for him having sex outside the M? She didn't put a gun to his head and tell him to get another woman. It's still wrong for him to have sex with OW. See what I mean?
Now this may not have been the best comparison to use (probably not) but I'm trying to hurry and it just quickly come to mind. We each are responsible for our actions, but we
do affect one another. Nobody affects us like our S does. I am just saying that you can't be Mr. Self-righteous and say you didn't play a part, b/c she's saying you
did affect her to the degree of turning to OM. Right or wrong, those are her feelings. You are trying to argue with her feelings.
I don't blame you for not being her scapegoat. She has to own what she did wrong. I am not saying you should relieve her of any responsibility.
This is where I get frustrated. I know that DB involves NOT getting into unproductive R talks. I don't want to ignore her; I want to engage with her, but without getting angry or defensive.
Start out by simply not defending yourself and see what happens when you just listen.
No, we both needed space to breathe! I want to give her space, but then if I leave her alone too much then I'm ignoring her, she feels disconnected from me, etc. All the usual things. I honestly can't figure out what it is she wants, and it can change several times in a day.
You need to find balance with the space giving. It sounds as if you go to extreme one way or the other. Do you know her love language? You really need to know it b/c that is how you will help her feel connected to you.....and she really wants to feel that now. Whether she has said it in words or not, that's what she means when she expresses her concerns about not having feelings. She wants to feel connected to you, and she's trying to tell you but she doesn't know how. Apparently, you don't how either. You can learn.
Do you mean to tell me this is the first day (so far) that you have not brought up OM to your W? What is wrong with you? Do you want her to move forward, or not? The more you talk about OM, the worse you are making it for both you and W.
Yes, your ego is the problem here. You want to attack someone, and being a man, you want to strike out at the guy who tried to get your woman. Well, OM is gone and apparently had no interest in starting things back up with your W. So, let it go before you have nobody but yourself to blame when she decides she's had enough. Seriously, I cannot stress enough how much damage you are doing by referring to this guy everyday. Just as you are sick & tired of her blaming you for the A, she's just as fed up with your attack mode of OM. It is a merry-go-round defense that nobody wins.
Sorry, I wasn't very clear. I go without mentioning OM a lot. It's just that when we do get into discussions, it turns to OM, and I get defensive and hostile towards him. I know I need to stop that. I have had a heck of a time holding my tongue. I know there's a lot of ego involved; I can feel it. I feel the need to put him down because I'm incredulous that my W would see him in a more positive light than she sees me. I know I'll never win any husband awards, but was I really that big of an a-hole?
Just maybe, if you would STFU about OM, she would ease off blaming you for some things. It puts both of you on the defense when this stuff happens. You can see it doesn't work, so you need to stop.
Point taken. She's told me this in so many words before. I'm having a heck of a time keeping my anger in check. I was surprised at the amount of anger I had towards her in MC today. Our arguing got so heated that our C had to call a time out.
Okay then, when she throws blame at your feet, instead of getting angry and blowing up.....tell her it really makes you upset that she feels that way. Tell her that neither of you can go back and undo the things either of you did to get this point. You are sorry for everything you did that made her feel she had to turn to someone other than you. Then ask her what you can do to help both of you heal and get on with making your new MR better.
Whether you want to admit it or not, she turned to OM b/c she wasn't getting what she needed in her MR with you. Did you force her to meet with him and let things go as far as they did? Not at all. But she feels you are to blame for the conditions that made her vulnerable to having an A. What you don't seem to get (with your anger directed toward OM) is that she was vulnerable to any man who said or did just the right thing to fill her EN. B/c her H wasn't doing it. Now that is what you need to face and to admit.
We each are responsible for our actions, but we do affect one another. Nobody affects us like our S does. I am just saying that you can't be Mr. Self-righteous and say you didn't play a part, b/c she's saying you did affect her to the degree of turning to OM. Right or wrong, those are her feelings. You are trying to argue with her feelings.
I know that I helped set the stage for this. I've never claimed otherwise. I do take responsibility for not meeting her EN. I was distant from her a lot; there were other incidents that caused her to lose trust in me, for good reason. I've fully owned that.
She wasn't meeting mine either. I make no bones about the fact that had the circumstances been different, I would have been explaining my A to her. In the grand scheme of things, their A didn't go nearly as far as it could have, and I give her a lot of credit for stopping it before it did. I think (and this is where ego comes in) that my hatred for OM is because he represents my failure as a husband. That makes me angrier than anything that she actually did.
One thing I have learned out of all this is how much of a control freak I am. Even as I try to let go of any specific outcome, I'm still trying to shove it in the direction I want it to go.
Start out by simply not defending yourself and see what happens when you just listen.
You need to find balance with the space giving. It sounds as if you go to extreme one way or the other. Do you know her love language? You really need to know it b/c that is how you will help her feel connected to you.....and she really wants to feel that now. Whether she has said it in words or not, that's what she means when she expresses her concerns about not having feelings. She wants to feel connected to you, and she's trying to tell you but she doesn't know how. Apparently, you don't how either. You can learn.
I've lived with this woman for two decades, and I still don't feel like I know her well enough. Maybe I've been winging it too long, and I need to be more systematic in setting goals.
I need to operate on the assumption that the A is over. I know she still carries too much affection for him, but their contact is minimal. Since he doesn't live here and there's no danger of her sneaking off with him on a whim, that gives me space to try and piece with her.
My goals:
1. Continue GAL. Physical/emotional/mental fitness, work on my career, work on my side business, participate in hobbies, socialize with friends. All those things will help me be happier and more interesting to her.
2. Focus on her love languages. I've never been able to pin down just one, but I would say they're most likely:
Quality time: she likes it when we spend time together
Acts of service: When I'm proactive and take responsibility for things around the house, parenting, etc. she feels more secure. My passivity in this area has been a legitimate criticism IMHO.
3. Listen and keep my ego in check. Listen to her instead of trying to defend myself. When I asks her what I can do to rebuild things between us, all she says is "I don't know", but I'll assume that's her depression talking and continue to ask.
4. Let go of my hatred for OM. I know I need to stop attacking him, but it starts and I spiral. In church yesterday I did pray that OM and his W can heal their marriage. I guess that's a start. Nothing excuses what he did, but I have been told that his W isn't exactly affectionate towards him (I'm going to assume that's the truth). I'm trying to view him as a lost and lonely person too, instead of simply a predator.
I am disappointed you did not make a goal to do something about your anger problem. I mean after all, you talk about it so much and whenever backed into a corner, that is your answer.........you just get so angry, the arguments get so heated, you have so much hatred for OM. etc.
It is good you prayed for OM, if it was for his happiness. Sure it wasn't with the thought your own M would be secure if his M would heal? Anyway..........maybe pray for yourself, that God would take the anger out of your heart.
I don't want you to think I am picking this to death, but as much as it has come up......I think it is a bigger issue than you may realize, or admit to yourself. If you don't get control, you are going to lose your W, and you won't have an A or OM to blame it on. You are doing it all by yourself!
Stop using anger for your excuse to act badly. Do something about now.
Rzr,
My apologies for jumping in after taking a break from your thread and acting like I have something to say; forgive me if I'm off-base on anything. But I've read the past couple pages, and a couple things came to mind:
1. When it comes to EN, unfortunately the man is often saddled with the "starting point." This is explained in HNHN quite well. Most women need intimate conversation and affection. Most men need sex and admiration. In a lot of cases - including in mine with H - he would want admiration and sex. But I wasn't feeling "attracted" enough to him to pull that off because he wasn't meeting MY needs; he had stopped taking an interest in what I did or how I was feeling. He had stopped buying me flowers. He rolled his eyes when I would talk about my day (granted, I was whining a lot). You know the drill. And because he wasn't meeting my needs, I didn't want to have sex with him. And I certainly didn't admire him. I could (and did) force myself, once in a while, to have sex with him, but it wasn't mutually satisfactory. So then he wasn't completely satisfied. (In other words, I wasn't meeting his needs, either, to inspire him to actually give a crap that he wasn't meeting mine.) Vicious cycle, which sandi detailed beautifully in one of her posts about the LBS taking responsibility for creating a sh!tty marital environment that makes an A not only a possibility but a PROBABILITY.
The thing about women is this: We're complicated. I'd argue we are far more complicated than men, actually. But if you put forth the effort to communicate intimately and to show affection - even just to listen without seeming annoyed or without trying to fix everything or at least without being snarky or judgmental ... or seemingly BORED - we are FAR more willing to meet your EN, including jumping in the sack and participating - even enthusiastically - in what will meet YOUR needs.
Bottom line: It's tough for us to meet your needs if you're not meeting ours first. So the onus usually falls on the man to move FIRST. That might seem unfair. But it's just the truth from how I, and many others, see it. Does that make sense or apply at all in your situation?
Have you given your W flowers lately? Just as a friendly gesture, if nothing else? A man handing a woman flowers with a smile on his face and then carrying on with his day with no expectations ... ahhhh, that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside just thinking about it. A STRANGER could do that as a random act of kindness, and it would put a smile on a woman's face all day, so don't think you have to be all romantic-feeling to do it for your W. Just a thought ...
sandi said it perfectly a couple posts ago:
She wants to know she's made the right choice. So act like the right choice!This takes A LOT of courage and faith and forgiveness on your part. I've been there, Rzr. I'm STILL there. But day by day, I've been able to shed the thoughts of OW. It's been 9 months for me - and that's with my H trying his heart out - so be sure to have patience with yourself.
I think you'll get your answers one day if you want them. I don't think the time is right now.
2. Are you guys going on dates or spending any time together outside of the house? H and I, when he came back, agreed to one set-in-stone night a week - Saturdays - for date night. (I even told my older daughters that if they both made plans that night, they'd have to find the babysitter for the younger two and foot the bill. THAT is how dedicated H and I were to making this a standing priority, and it also resulted in my older two negotiating and compromising on nights-out for themselves - lol.) If we're pinching pennies, we are on the back patio, by a fire with beers. And we schedule "A-free" nights when mentioning the A - or anything about it - is absolutely off-limits. We just kick back and enjoy each others' company. It was awkward at first. But nine months later, they're very natural. Those dates have literally saved our M. They've reminded us why we fell in love. And they KEEP us in love. (But, again, they didn't start out that way when H was first home and I was still consumed with thoughts of the A and OW.)
3. You can't just decide to let go of your hatred for OM. Just keep that hatred from spewing out of your mouth. It also doesn't sound like you and your W are in the place to freely discuss him or her A without one of you losing your cool. Do you feel like you need answers about OM and the A? If so, re-read 1. and 2. above (and all the incredible advice sandi has given you). Before long - and once some deposits have been made in the ol' Love Banks and trust has been earned back little pieces - and large chunks - at a time, I'd bet your W will be open to discuss things with you openly and honestly, and then you can get your answers if you need them.
But you're right to make it one of your goals to drop the references to OM right now. Vanilla said it best:
This kind of hate and anger seems to emanate from fear. If you address the fears about OM and reframe it then the hate will dissipate. Either that or as a tactic making OM insignificant to you. OM is insignificant and irrelevant, they are a symptom not a cause. Also: Every time you mention OM, you're putting him in your W's brain again. Cut that out, mmkay?
I am disappointed you did not make a goal to do something about your anger problem. I mean after all, you talk about it so much and whenever backed into a corner, that is your answer.........you just get so angry, the arguments get so heated, you have so much hatred for OM. etc.
It is good you prayed for OM, if it was for his happiness. Sure it wasn't with the thought your own M would be secure if his M would heal? Anyway..........maybe pray for yourself, that God would take the anger out of your heart.
I don't want you to think I am picking this to death, but as much as it has come up......I think it is a bigger issue than you may realize, or admit to yourself. If you don't get control, you are going to lose your W, and you won't have an A or OM to blame it on. You are doing it all by yourself!
Stop using anger for your excuse to act badly. Do something about now.
I included letting go of my hatred of OM as doing something about my anger, but I see your point. I did pray for his healing; I'll admit I was thinking win-win, but that's fine. I'd love it if everyone involved came out on the other side with their marriages renewed. The way my W talks, she doesn't see OM as a viable option any more either. For the record, I did pray for my W's healing as well.
I don't think I realized how angry I was. I've felt numb a lot of the time to be honest. My mindset has actually been worse in the last couple of weeks than it was back in, say, November. I still feel good about myself and the changes I'm making, and I know I'll be fine if we do D, but for some reason I have been angrier lately. Don't get the impression that I scream at or berate my W; I don't, but I know I let myself slide into anger more than I should. I feel like I get pummeled with the same things every day: "I'm not in love with you." "I'm not sexually attracted to you.", etc. And I just get tired of being told every day how much I screwed up her life. I try to control things and make her see reason, even though I know that's pointless.
Rzr,
My apologies for jumping in after taking a break from your thread and acting like I have something to say; forgive me if I'm off-base on anything. But I've read the past couple pages, and a couple things came to mind:
No worries, Train. I appreciate it any time someone jumps in on my thread...even with a 2x4
1. When it comes to EN, unfortunately the man is often saddled with the "starting point." This is explained in HNHN quite well. Most women need intimate conversation and affection. Most men need sex and admiration. In a lot of cases - including in mine with H - he would want admiration and sex. But I wasn't feeling "attracted" enough to him to pull that off because he wasn't meeting MY needs; he had stopped taking an interest in what I did or how I was feeling. He had stopped buying me flowers. He rolled his eyes when I would talk about my day (granted, I was whining a lot). You know the drill. And because he wasn't meeting my needs, I didn't want to have sex with him. And I certainly didn't admire him. I could (and did) force myself, once in a while, to have sex with him, but it wasn't mutually satisfactory. So then he wasn't completely satisfied. (In other words, I wasn't meeting his needs, either, to inspire him to actually give a crap that he wasn't meeting mine.) Vicious cycle, which sandi detailed beautifully in one of her posts about the LBS taking responsibility for creating a sh!tty marital environment that makes an A not only a possibility but a PROBABILITY.
You've described our marriage that led up to this point very nicely. I was detached too much. I spent too much time absorbed in my own issues and general "busy-ness". I did have times where I made her feel like she was putting me out when she wanted my help with something or even some attention. I had an eye-rolling problem too. I own all that completely. There were specific issues she's working through right now, like my toxic parents, but I can't help but wonder if when the onion layers are peeled back, if I just made her feel like an albatross one too many times.
I see my blindness, self-absorption and immaturity now. I've said all these things to her before. I can't tell if it makes any difference. And that's my greatest fear. That I could move heaven and earth to honestly address the things I did wrong in my marriage,
and it won't make a difference.
The thing about women is this: We're complicated. I'd argue we are far more complicated than men, actually. But if you put forth the effort to communicate intimately and to show affection - even just to listen without seeming annoyed or without trying to fix everything or at least without being snarky or judgmental ... or seemingly BORED - we are FAR more willing to meet your EN, including jumping in the sack and participating - even enthusiastically - in what will meet YOUR needs.
Bottom line: It's tough for us to meet your needs if you're not meeting ours first. So the onus usually falls on the man to move FIRST. That might seem unfair. But it's just the truth from how I, and many others, see it. Does that make sense or apply at all in your situation?
sandi said it perfectly a couple posts ago:
She wants to know she's made the right choice. So act like the right choice!This takes A LOT of courage and faith and forgiveness on your part. I've been there, Rzr. I'm STILL there. But day by day, I've been able to shed the thoughts of OW. It's been 9 months for me - and that's with my H trying his heart out - so be sure to have patience with yourself.
I think you'll get your answers one day if you want them. I don't think the time is right now.
2. Are you guys going on dates or spending any time together outside of the house? H and I, when he came back, agreed to one set-in-stone night a week - Saturdays - for date night. (I even told my older daughters that if they both made plans that night, they'd have to find the babysitter for the younger two and foot the bill. THAT is how dedicated H and I were to making this a standing priority, and it also resulted in my older two negotiating and compromising on nights-out for themselves - lol.) If we're pinching pennies, we are on the back patio, by a fire with beers. And we schedule "A-free" nights when mentioning the A - or anything about it - is absolutely off-limits. We just kick back and enjoy each others' company. It was awkward at first. But nine months later, they're very natural. Those dates have literally saved our M. They've reminded us why we fell in love. And they KEEP us in love. (But, again, they didn't start out that way when H was first home and I was still consumed with thoughts of the A and OW.)
3. You can't just decide to let go of your hatred for OM. Just keep that hatred from spewing out of your mouth. It also doesn't sound like you and your W are in the place to freely discuss him or her A without one of you losing your cool. Do you feel like you need answers about OM and the A? If so, re-read 1. and 2. above (and all the incredible advice sandi has given you). Before long - and once some deposits have been made in the ol' Love Banks and trust has been earned back little pieces - and large chunks - at a time, I'd bet your W will be open to discuss things with you openly and honestly, and then you can get your answers if you need them.
But you're right to make it one of your goals to drop the references to OM right now. Vanilla said it best:
This kind of hate and anger seems to emanate from fear. If you address the fears about OM and reframe it then the hate will dissipate. Either that or as a tactic making OM insignificant to you. OM is insignificant and irrelevant, they are a symptom not a cause. Also: Every time you mention OM, you're putting him in your W's brain again. Cut that out, mmkay?
Thanks again, Train. you jumped in at the right time. Sometimes our date nights are just running errands (budget's tight at the moment), but we do make sure that we spend at least one evening a week together and away from the kids. Unfortunately when we do that we often seem to end up parked somewhere with her telling me how miserable she is (and my role in that) and me defending myself. I will say that one date we had recently (dinner and then a photo scavenger hunt) went very well.
My W has been extremely forthcoming about everything that has happened; both her feelings about our marriage and the A. The A was predominately emotional, with a little physical, but did not end in sex. I have several reasons why I believe that is true that I won't go into here.
I don't think that Om is the major factor in her life that he once was. I guess it's time I stop making him a major factor in mine.
I guess it's time I stop making him a major factor in mine.
Yes. Again, I think you will be able to address these things - your questions and anger and pain - with her eventually. But first, you have some deposits of your own to make in her Love Bank. I know it doesn't feel fair because SHE is the one who had the A. (EA? PA? Doesn't matter one way or the other. One's just as hurtful as the other; in fact, for a woman, an EA is actually HARDER to break than a PA because we are emotional people.) But those of us who have been cheated on did our own disservice to our Ms; as you know, we have as much to prove as the person who cheated. You're here, and so you KNOW that. And you're working on it. Good on you.
Remember: flowers. And establish "A-free" date nights with W. See if she agrees to one of those - say - every two weeks, okay? That's a good starting point. And use those two nights a month to really re-connect and have some fun. No anger. No spewing. No reminders of the sh!t times. Just fun. It doesn't have to cost money. Get creative. And if YOU plan the date? Even BETTER!
Interesting talk last night. She still talks of feeling lost and lonely; but she talked about the past four months like it was some kind of break with reality; that the issues we had buried for a long time finally came to a head. She talks about us living life the way we want. Bottom line, she talked like she was seeing some things differently than she had.
She did tell me point blank she wasn't angry with me anymore. I talked about how I'm working to let OM go, about how off my game I was as a husband and as a man for so long. In other words, my role in this whole fiasco.
There's more, but she sounded more lucid than she has in weeks. I'll take that as a small hopeful sign.
I feel a little better about saying the word 'piecing' this morning. Gotta make some Love Bank deposits in the meantime (thanks Train)
Thanks for the 2x4 Sandi. I didn't realize how much damage my hatred of OM and anger towards her was doing. I didn't realize how angry I actually was.
Expect V to mention it occasionally!.......
V
Geez. W is calling me at work; she feels alone; she feels abandoned by OM and me. She's not in love with me anymore and hasn't been for years. I'm stuck at work, talking to her on my cell. I just don't know how to handle this.
I'm trying like hell not to spiral. I even told her I needed a time out (as prescribed by our therapist) because I was starting to spiral. I want to be there for her, but I can't sit there and make her feel better about OM.
I'm probably not the right guy to ask . .
You can always fall back on the ol' "I hate to see you hurting," or "I agree, this has been really hard on all of us" generalities in a pinch.
Starsky
I'm trying like hell not to spiral. I even told her I needed a time out (as prescribed by our therapist) because I was starting to spiral. I want to be there for her, but I can't sit there and make her feel better about OM.
I think that's healthy, and appropriate.
My mentor here on this forum taught me "Never shelter an adulterer from the consequences of their adultery." I think she needs to feel this, and while you can validate her PAIN I don't think you should swoop in to RESCUE her from from it . . . especially if she's saying it simultaneously with "I have never loved you" ???
That's really all I can do. She calls me out as being insincere when I do that. But I'm not going to be her effing cheerleader where he's concerned.
I'm trying like hell not to spiral. I even told her I needed a time out (as prescribed by our therapist) because I was starting to spiral. I want to be there for her, but I can't sit there and make her feel better about OM.
I think that's healthy, and appropriate.
My mentor here on this forum taught me "Never shelter an adulterer from the consequences of their adultery." I think she needs to feel this, and while you can validate her PAIN I don't think you should swoop in to RESCUE her from from it . . . especially if she's saying it simultaneously with "I have never loved you" ???
I am working very hard on not attacking OM, and almost got there. That's why I took the time out. I know that makes her dig in. Last night she was saying she was no longer angry at me, today she treats me like everything that's wrong in our marriage is my fault. I try to validate and not make her feel abandoned, but Geez.
How about if you said something like "Look, I can hear the pain in your voice and I HATE that you're hurting, I really do. But I'm also not going to sit here while you bash me and tell me that you've never loved me, and berate me, and I'm DAMNED sure not going to help you feel better about how your affair partner treated you. If you ever decide that you really do love me, but just aren't FEELING like it right now, and you're 100% in, I think you'll find me 100% committed to helping you in any way I can. But this 'one foot on the platform and the other foot on the train' thing just isn't working for me anymore, I'm sorry."
?
Great way to say that Starsky. I hope at some point I may be able to say something like this to my W. It sounds like negativity at first by saying I don't care about your problems and my feelings are hurt but then I see the positive in that it will allow my W to see that I wont be treated like a doormat and gives me some confidence that I am standing up for myself.
That is my take I hope I am grasping it.
Rzr, I think what Starsky said and the way he said it will work for you.
I will be following to see.
Good luck and hang tough.
That's really all I can do. She calls me out as being insincere when I do that. But I'm not going to be her effing cheerleader where he's concerned.
Caution! Can you see how that triggers your anger? And I agree that you did the smart thing by taking a time-out.
I do not blame you, nor am I suggesting you sooth her feelings over OM. Just recognize the triggers (like you did today), b/c when you go into one your temper outlets, that causes her to feel you are not sincere about the other things you tell her. She feels you take your temper fits out on her.
Again, I am not disagreeing, I'm just trying to get you to see how it looks to her. She doesn't like the withdrawal (I don't know if she realizes what she's experiencing.) She wants you to help her through this. As Starsky suggested, tell her you
both are experiencing tough emotions...but today's feelings do not dictate the feelings of tomorrow.
She is a mess. One of you needs to stay calm. She is still operating out of emotions, so if both of
do......it won't be good. You want to blow up every time she makes any reference to OM (which I understand......just saying) so if you continue that response, she will stop reaching out to you when she is hurting. She may find somebody else to comfort her. Somebody who is willing to listen.
When you calm down, maybe you can just tell her, "I don't want to see you in pain, and I am willing to do whatever I can....except discuss your affair partner".
When was the last time you took her out for something fun?
That's really all I can do. She calls me out as being insincere when I do that. But I'm not going to be her effing cheerleader where he's concerned.
Caution! Can you see how that triggers your anger? And I agree that you did the smart thing by taking a time-out.
I do not blame you, nor am I suggesting you sooth her feelings over OM. Just recognize the triggers (like you did today), b/c when you go into one your temper outlets, that causes her to feel you are not sincere about the other things you tell her. She feels you take your temper fits out on her.
Again, I am not disagreeing, I'm just trying to get you to see how it looks to her. She doesn't like the withdrawal (I don't know if she realizes what she's experiencing.) She wants you to help her through this. As Starsky suggested, tell her you
both are experiencing tough emotions...but today's feelings do not dictate the feelings of tomorrow.
She is a mess. One of you needs to stay calm. She is still operating out of emotions, so if both of
do......it won't be good. You want to blow up every time she makes any reference to OM (which I understand......just saying) so if you continue that response, she will stop reaching out to you when she is hurting. She may find somebody else to comfort her. Somebody who is willing to listen.
When you calm down, maybe you can just tell her, "I don't want to see you in pain, and I am willing to do whatever I can....except discuss your affair partner".
When was the last time you took her out for something fun?
fwiw, I
AGREE with all of that ^^^.
Well said, Sandi
I did suggest dinner tonight, but she declined.
This was a bad day. Some days she's in a good frame of mind. This was not one of those days. She's got a lot of anger and resentment towards me right now.
Fortunately I was able to keep my temper for the most part when she mentioned OM today. I took a time out when I realized I was about to launch into a tirade against him. I think my rhetoric tracked fairly closely with what you laid out in your post. I still need to work on calm. Today was hard.
Yep, she's a mess for sure. 48 hours ago she told me she wasn't angry with me anymore; now she is again. Not unexpected. She's at a school meeting tonight with D15, I've calmed down enough I think we can have a calm discussion when she gets home.
I've got to get my calm back. A week ago I was calm, in control, and ready for anything. I can tell I need to drop that rope again.
I know she's going through more withdrawal. I guess I expected that she'd be in it deep for the first couple of weeks and then slowly climb out of it. It's more like a roller coaster where she goes back in. Him showing up last week didn't help, I'm sure, even though they never really got much chance to talk.
I'm trying to recommit to the DR rules. Keep things calm, upbeat. She expects me to stay in here when she's in this state. She tells me I'm abandoning her if I leave the room, but she doesn't particularly want to engage with me at all right now. So I left the room anyway and cleaned the kitchen. I'm sick of having that Georgia cockroach in my life. Wish she was sick of it.
I'm trying to walk he line between being there for her when she wants to talk, and just hanging with her for no particular reason.
No, I'm sure it didn't help. Contact is problematic.
Think about trying this, and see if will help in taking a better turn. Yes, another talk
however, keep this one short and to the point about compromising on the topics. Wait until both of you are calm and she's not having one of her "You are abandoning me" moments, and approach her with something along this line......
"Honey I am concerned that neither of us are emotionally strong enough right now to have serious R talks as often as we have done lately. In doing so, I worry it is keeping us from getting to a better place, b/c
we get stuck when we try to do this on our own. I want you to turn to me when you are having a rough time, but I
admit I get upset hearing you talk about your feelings for another guy. So, can we work out a compromise, where you get your need to talk and spend quality time together, and I can have time to work on my emotions.....and we both can feel connected to each other?"
The compromise: She talks to you about whatever she wants, so long as it has nothing to do with OM. And you will listen without angry outbursts. Any discussions that has reference to the A/OM will wait until the next session with the C. The difference will be that the C will be there to guide/control the session.
Maybe you have already tried this approach, IDK. I am not the best in finding the right words, but I know it is important that you say nothing to indicate you are blaming her or that you don't want to have
any talks at all. You want to sound as if both of you want the same things, but she won't hear you if she starts getting mad before you can finish your dialog. Maybe Starsky has something better to offer along those lines, or maybe he has a difference of opinion here.
******************************************************
There needs to an attempt to have more fun & laughter within the home. That's not easy when one of you are deeply depressed, and it will probably be up to you to make the effort. Watch funny movies together instead of sad things. Have friends over. Do something other than this nightly routines of staying cooped up in the bedroom discussing the stitch. You need to plan something special. I don't mean romantic.....but something you believe she would really enjoy doing. You can make it a big thing or small & simple, but
you need to make all the arrangements and then treat her like she's your special guest. Do something different, instead of going out to dinner. (Which was okay yesterday, since you didn't much time to plan anything else.)
You all need a good distraction from all this daily drama. I am concerned you are going to throw everything up in the air and walk out, if there isn't a change in the atmosphere soon.
Good Sandi advice and Starsky-endorsed. Can't get much better than that.
We had a rough night, but she called me this morning apologizing for the harsh things she said to me. She's trying to pay more attention to the positives in our life. During the conversation, she said an interesting thing. She's trying not to focus so much on falling back in love with me per se (she's frustrated because it's not happening like she wants it to), but rather focus on the positive aspects of our life that tend to bond us. This is what the therapist has been trying to lead us towards for the last couple of sessions, though we couldn't stop arguing long enough to get there. The romantic connection can't get reestablished until the emotional connection does. We're going to go to dinner tonight (didn't happen last night due to scheduling problems) and really talk about what we both want out of life and see what kind of common ground we have.
She's still having a hard time processing OM, but that's not surprising. I can't help but notice that she seemed to feel better about OM until he came into town last week, and then she crashed after he left. She didn't really do anything wrong, seeing him at her workplace was unavoidable, and they didn't talk all that much. Interestingly enough, she used the word "withdrawal" today when talking about OM.
Sandi, your remark about laughter was prescient. She said the same thing to me today! I recall something that happened a couple of weeks ago. We watched a really stupid-funny sci fi movie. We laughed together and had a great time. Later that week we watched an action flick. Good movie, but obviously not much laughter. Later on she made a remark about how close to me she felt during the funny movie; during the other movie, not so much. I didn't connect the dots until just now. Several days passed between the two and her mood was probably different, but it still seems to me that when we laugh together, we're closer. Interesting. We're out of town for a swim meet this weekend, but I'm going to figure out something to do very soon.
Ya gotta love a person who can use "prescient" in a post . . . and use it correctly!
LOL. That graduate education was good for something
Rzr
I am not knowledgeable enough to say much to you on this, but if you are looking for laughter suggestions V is your GAL.
Is there a skating rink? That's fun.......
Roller coasters real ones. And there are some wonderful films around.
Get those brain cells going Rzr, asap
V
Thanks V, I'm looking at some things. Unfortunately we don't have any roller coasters very close by but there are other things. It's too bad it's cold right now, I'm better at outdoor date than indoor ones. I'm sure I'll figure something out.
W is in a much better frame of mind. Mainly she's exhausted due to interrupted sleep and just the overall stress of the situation. On top of that she's had the flu. I'm not sure her sleep deficit didn't have at least something to do with her emotional crash this week.
Wow...stay away for a few days and I get pushed about 10 pages down....
Haven't checked in for a while. We had a good weekend, but it all imploded. She's extremely angry with me for the things I did wrong in our marriage. She still justifies her actions in her mind. She's sticking to NC still with OM.
The MC said that it was OK for her to grieve OM, since that's something she has to process herself. I get that, but her grieving has definitely hit the anger stage. She's angry with him, angry with me, and even got angry at her dad (who died 20 years ago), because "that's what men do, they just abandon you."
I'm ashamed to post because I broke every DB rule in the book last night. I got insanely angry at constantly being blamed for the state of our marriage and the state of her life. I almost left last night. I cussed OM up one side and down the other. All the stupid things I know not to do and have been advised not to do, I went nuclear on. She was distant (she had been in a good mood the night before) and I asked her what was wrong. She let loose on both me and OM. I listened calmly for about 10 minutes and then it just exploded in me. And I remind myself every day to keep it under control.
We're talking now and her state of mind is far better today. Sandi, she basically laid out for me what you've been trying to get me to understand all along. I can't talk her into falling in love with me; it's not something I can control directly. I have to find ways to emotionally connect with her. Now if I could just figure that out.
Geez. It's been a s**tty week.
You must enjoy starting over at square one again.
Okay, well I have noticed where several of the fights seem to start with you asking her "what's wrong". My suggestion is don't ask. Seriously, don't do it, b/c when she starts talking about things, it usually triggers something and you lose it. If this pattern continues much longer, you will eventually have one too many and then end it with a blow-out where neither of you will recover. Every time you two fight like this, it is like slicing each other apart. How can you heal? You can't.
So, whenever you see her in a down mood, you can either do something that would generally lift her spirits or you can just show your PMA and don't pry. I hate to admit it, but there are a few women who show their depressed moods/attitudes in order to get the H to ask them what's wrong. It's like her way of getting his undivided attention. But with the two of you, it keeps going down that same old road hitting the same old ruts. I am not saying that is what your W is doing, b/c IDK. Did you ever try my suggestion about telling her you would listen to her talk about anything except the A/OM?
You have to be the stronger one, happier one, and the one who is leading
her. You may get very tired of hearing this said, however, if you are not able to do
this and you succumb to exploding in fury over what she tells you, then it's like two blind people trying to lead each other. You both will fall into the ditch. She's upset, you ask her about it, she tells you, and what do you do? Exactly! So stop sticking your hand in the fire.
Remember, after she saw OM at work, she had to start all over with the withdrawal process. So really, you both have started over again. Must be terribly discouraging, except that hopefully you learn something from the times before and will stop repeating the same mistakes.
I hope you won't give up. I believe you two can make. Once she can get through the withdrawal/depression, then her heart will be free to feel the love she has always had for you. In the meantime, stop scr@wing up, okay?
P.S. It was good to hear you had a great weekend. Have you planned anything for Valentines? What would be something different?
(((Rzr)))...sorry you had a rough week, but glad you had a good weekend. I am continuing to keep you in my prayers. Hang in there!
Thanks Dawn, good to hear from you as always. Hope you're doing well.
You must enjoy starting over at square one again.
Yeah, apparently I do have this square one fetish. I was doing better earlier in my sitch. I can't figure out why I've deteriorated.
Okay, well I have noticed where several of the fights seem to start with you asking her "what's wrong". My suggestion is don't ask. Seriously, don't do it, b/c when she starts talking about things, it usually triggers something and you lose it. If this pattern continues much longer, you will eventually have one too many and then end it with a blow-out where neither of you will recover. Every time you two fight like this, it is like slicing each other apart. How can you heal? You can't.
So, whenever you see her in a down mood, you can either do something that would generally lift her spirits or you can just show your PMA and don't pry. I hate to admit it, but there are a few women who show their depressed moods/attitudes in order to get the H to ask them what's wrong. It's like her way of getting his undivided attention. But with the two of you, it keeps going down that same old road hitting the same old ruts. I am not saying that is what your W is doing, b/c IDK. Did you ever try my suggestion about telling her you would listen to her talk about anything except the A/OM?
I'm usually very good about not asking her, vis a vis DB principles. we had enjoyed several days of good communication and relatively good company, so I guess I felt better about asking her. It is true that I've had a much harder time recently keeping it together. It's not even so much that she mentions OM, but last night she lit into me about ruining her life and setting her up for her "indiscretion", as she calls it. Like I said, I was able to listen constructively for about 10 minutes until about the 5th "F*** you, you ruined my life" and I just lost it. We are very good at pushing each other's buttons, as most married couples are. When I suggest not talking about OM, she accuses me of trying to shut down communication, and only wanting to talk about things that are comfortable for me...as if I'm having fun talking about all our other issues. Remember, those are
all my fault too.
You have to be the stronger one, happier one, and the one who is leading her. You may get very tired of hearing this said, however, if you are not able to do this and you succumb to exploding in fury over what she tells you, then it's like two blind people trying to lead each other. You both will fall into the ditch. She's upset, you ask her about it, she tells you, and what do you do? Exactly! So stop sticking your hand in the fire.
Remember, after she saw OM at work, she had to start all over with the withdrawal process. So really, you both have started over again. Must be terribly discouraging, except that hopefully you learn something from the times before and will stop repeating the same mistakes.
I hope you won't give up. I believe you two can make. Once she can get through the withdrawal/depression, then her heart will be free to feel the love she has always had for you. In the meantime, stop scr@wing up, okay?
P.S. It was good to hear you had a great weekend. Have you planned anything for Valentines? What would be something different?
Thanks, and I know she's still in withdrawal. Even she sees it in her more calm moments. I apparently had a much better time keeping it together early on; don't know why I'm having so much difficulty now. If any posters have any suggestions about how to get my anger in check; I'm all ears. I know we're heading towards a blowout that's unrecoverable. It almost happened last night. This morning she was telling me about how I need to help foster the environment for us to reconnect emotionally; namely, by not exploding, and by not attacking OM. She told me point blank that she feels even farther from me when I do that. I understand and believe what she's telling me, but the thought that kept going through my mind this morning was "She's the one who had the A, and I'm the one having to grovel to try and win her back. WTF?" I know that's the wrong attitude to have; I'm working through it.
To top it off, we're in the middle of a health scare right now. She discovered a relatively large, tender lump on her chest last week. Not her breast, but her upper chest near her collarbone. The tests last week were inconclusive, but the doctor is fairly sure it's benign. That said, she goes for an MRI and biopsy on Friday. I had already taken a vacation day so that I could go with her, but last night she told me that she didn't want me to go because, as she put it, she saw me doing something kind and loving as "clouding her judgment" about our future. She didn't want to be vulnerable to me in any way. Geez. Even when I do positive things she sees them as wrong. Anyway, today she had changed her mind and wanted me to go. Fascinating.
As far as V-day, nothing. She hates V-day anyway, and especially now she feels like it would be "fake". I've got a couple of ideas for date night that I'm waiting to try out as soon as the weather gets a little more cooperative. In the meantime, I'm taking her for lunch on Friday. This weekend is yet another out of town trip for D15's athletics.
[/quote]
If any posters have any suggestions about how to get my anger in check; I'm all ears
I haven't read all of your sitch, but I have read quite a bit. What have you done to let go of your anger in terms of personal growth? I ask this, because 1. I'm a guy, 2. I believe in my Scottish/Irish heritage :), and 3. that's what I learned from my father thanks to an angry home. Can you truly identify the source of the anger? There are many times when it comes from a source that we do not easily see in the heat of the moment.
I provide therapy for a lot of men that have anger issues. A lot of the times it plays out in their Rs with GFs or Ws. I can tell you with full confidence that the clear majority of them come to the understanding that the anger stems from something inside of themselves and not their SOs.
For example, I worked with this vet who served two tours in Iraq. He was a combat medic and now an OR nurse. He would get so frustrated and angry with his W and D2, and they entered into couples therapy. I worked with him on the side. As we progressed through therapy and began to identify the start of his anger issues, we came to the understanding that it was a remnant from responsibilities in the military. When something happened, whether it was a firefight or being brought someone teetering on the brink of death, he had to react immediately, take control, and work towards results. Consequently, he became impatient and intolerant to indecisiveness and not following directions. Take a guess what most of the problems with him and his W were...
As you can see from that, he thought it was simply because his wife didn't see the importance of what he was saying. Instead, he wouldn't give her the opportunity to do so. Really think about what it is.
I appreciate your insight, Squiggy. I descend from two different Scottish clans, myself. I can put on a fair Scottish brogue, especially after a drink or two, and redheaded women are my kryptonite
My father can also be very quick-tempered, controlling, and on occasion downright bullying, though he was never violent. I know I picked up more than a few relationship pointers from him.
I definitely grew up with a less-than-stellar model of patience, so that's part of it. There may be others that I'm not thinking of, but off the top of my head I tend to get angriest when I feel out of control, my competence or character is questioned, or when I feel ignored or discarded, as in when my Ds ignore my directions. My sitch has included all three of those triggers in spades; I have no direct control over the outcome. My W has attacked my worth as a husband, a father, and my very manhood. She's also been completely resistant to seeing thing my way. I KNOW intellectually that I don't need to believe most of what she says, that I have no control, and that I'll only reach her through emotion, not logic. It still triggers me. I was actually better about it earlier in my sitch. I'm sure that fatigue and frustration are part of this as well.
I read a book about "nice guys" early in my sitch that described me to a "T". One of the things that stood out was that "nice guys" tended to be nice on the surface, but would have explosive and sometimes unexplained bursts of anger. Looking back I was because I felt like I had handed all control over my life to W in an effort to make her happy. I know my resentment spilled out onto her. Her legitimate complaints about my past behavior have often centered on my consistent moodiness and irritability. I've made a lot of progress in the last couple of years, really, in that area, but by the time I got a clue, her walls were already up.
What I have done to let go of my anger is mostly self-talk and exercise. I have also been more into prayer lately. I grew up in a religious home, but I fell away from the church for about 20 years after college. Ironically enough, I visited a church for the first time in several years the weekend before BD.
Absolutely understandable. I went through the whole being blamed for everything during BD as well. It is difficult when all of those things are brought to light. One thing I am personally glad to say is that it put it all in the forefront for me and allowed me to really begin to see what it was underneath it all. I think you're insight into the components of your anger are amazing. The self-talk and exercise are absolutely great starts to managing it better. Let me ask you this then, what immediate, quick things have you developed to let you manage it in the moment?
And that's where I fall down. It's one thing to work on my anger when im not actually triggered, it's another thing in the heat of battle. I've been able to take deep breaths on occasion and get things under control, but not always.
Our therapist did suggest using a time out signal when either one of us felt ourselves starting to spiral. It's worked well. It allows either one of us to use that signal, stop the spiral and withdrawal physically for a set period of time without the other one feeling abandoned.
Just curious if you have ever been to any anger management classes? And if not, why?
Does the subject come up in MC sessions (about your anger)?
The C has said not to have R talks outside of the MC sessions. You don't seem to be having the sessions often enough for your W to feel satisfied without talking more about it. I don't really know the solution other than waiting until she's not in a mood and then explain to her that the two of you are at a cross road here. For her, it is about connecting through verbal communication. For you, it is about respect and honor. Neither of you are getting what you need.
You can no longer listen to her talk about the A, b/c it reminds you of how she dishonored her wedding vows. You go crazy when she carries on over the OM, b/c it disrespects you. Somehow she has got to meet you half way. She is not the only one who is suffering. Why is the MC not getting her attention about this? Your W is not working with you or the MC by having a R talk almost every day.
My H would never argue, so we didn't fight. If I started to raise my voice or begin getting angry, he would leave. It drove me nuts! I wanted to let him have it with my anger and frustration, but he would wait until he knew I had time to cool down before he came back. I think it was better than doing like you and your W screaming and cursing at each other.
Maybe you need to try walking away and staying gone till the anger is gone. Even if it's overnight or a week.
She's the one who had the A, and I'm the one having to grovel to try and win her back. WTF?" I know that's the wrong attitude to have; I'm working through it.
No, you do NOT have to grovel! Who told you
that? Where did you read that? It your own belief that is saying it, b/c you FEEL like you are groveling in an attempt to win her back.......while she yells "FU" to your face.
All I know for sure is you are NOT working through it, like you say. Both of you are in crisis and this is not working for either of you. Do something different.
Finally got home from second job, so I wanted to check in on you. You said it's one thing while you are not triggered, it is easy. Absolutely. Sandi brought up a good point with the anger management classes. One of the things they teach you is to be aware of warning signs within yourself. You already know triggers (hot topics in this case). When you start to get angry, what are some of the things that go on with you? Think in terms of physical sensations (jaw clenching, muscle tension, bugs crawling, heart pounds, etc.), thoughts ("I can't believe she's doing this again", "Here is more talk about him", etc.), and feelings.
Keep in mind, anger is more like a behavior than an emotion. I use the iceberg analogy a lot. What we see is the tip of the iceberg, which is only about 1/3 of the whole thing. We see that behavior. However, there are more true feelings underneath it: insecurity, frustration, impatience, despair, fury, depression..You name it.
I also want to echo what Sandi said about the groveling. Really ask yourself what you mean by that. DB/DR says that we are the first to make the changes. We lead the way. Sometimes you have to agree with them from THEIR perspective, not your's. The biggest tool I use in therapy is called reframing. It allows me to agree with almost anything, because I can see where they are coming from. Think about where she is at in this process.
Rzr,
My hat's off to you, bro. I just ... man, I just can't even.
I can empathize. That's about all I can say right now.
I did want to echo sandi's idea, though, that you consider bringing up setting boundaries around the discussions ... and one boundary is that you won't listen to all that OM-diarrhea in your ear.
That's just ... no.
Whew.
Have you tried that with W?
Sandi, I haven't thought about anger management classes, but I have thought about IC. I've brought my anger up in MC, that was when our C suggested the idea of the time out.
For my W, any time I suggest boundaries on what we can discuss, that's me trying to control too much. She doesn't see how we can talk about our problems with mentioning OM. I don't want to prohibit ever mentioning OM, but I don't need the story of how he made her feel for the 1000th time. She doesn't really say it in a gushing way, but she does it knowing what it does to me. Of course, my insistence on boundaries is a sign of weakness on my part; that I can't handle dealing with uncomfortable subjects. Because all our other issues are fun to talk about
I can't get a bead on what she wants. She insists that the A was a result of our problems and not a cause (I agree), but she still makes it too much a feature of our R discussions.
We're meeting in MC once a week. No, that's not enough for W. She wants to talk way too much. Her basic attitude is that if she's in a bad frame of mind, then I need to drop everything and discuss it with her. Anything less means I don't really care and she feels farther away from me. I made the mistake of asking her how she was doing a couple of nights ago; I won't do that again. Yesterday was actually a good day, but I could tell she was tense when she left this morning for work. I didn't ask, I just carried on like I was having a good morning.
I didn't read the "groveling" thing anywhere. That was just the feeling I had the other morning after our big blowup when she was telling me that I needed to figure out how to connect with her emotionally, rather than logically. She has an excellent point, but at the time it felt like she was telling me what I needed to do. Her words were respectful, but I heard it in her tone. I'd like to know just what the hell is she trying to do to reconnect with me?
Finally got home from second job, so I wanted to check in on you. You said it's one thing while you are not triggered, it is easy. Absolutely. Sandi brought up a good point with the anger management classes. One of the things they teach you is to be aware of warning signs within yourself. You already know triggers (hot topics in this case). When you start to get angry, what are some of the things that go on with you? Think in terms of physical sensations (jaw clenching, muscle tension, bugs crawling, heart pounds, etc.), thoughts ("I can't believe she's doing this again", "Here is more talk about him", etc.), and feelings.
That's basically what our C suggested when we were discussing a time out. We needed to spot our triggers and call time out before they got out of control. I hadn't thought about anger management classes before, but I am considering IC.
Keep in mind, anger is more like a behavior than an emotion. I use the iceberg analogy a lot. What we see is the tip of the iceberg, which is only about 1/3 of the whole thing. We see that behavior. However, there are more true feelings underneath it: insecurity, frustration, impatience, despair, fury, depression..You name it.
That's an interesting way to describe anger. I always thought of it as an emotion, but you're right. There's definitely all those other emotions that you named under it for me.
I also want to echo what Sandi said about the groveling. Really ask yourself what you mean by that. DB/DR says that we are the first to make the changes. We lead the way. Sometimes you have to agree with them from THEIR perspective, not your's. The biggest tool I use in therapy is called reframing. It allows me to agree with almost anything, because I can see where they are coming from. Think about where she is at in this process.
"Groveling" was the feeling I had at the time, when she was talking to me the morning after our big blowup. My basic thought at the time was, "Why am I doing all the heavy lifting? This has been a journey of profound change for me. What the hell is
she doing to change?" I do like the way you put it; that we're "leading the way". When I can think of it that way, I feel more in charge; I know that a feeling of helplessness is one of my anger triggers. I don't feel in control of my fate, so I lash out. I can intellectually see where she's coming from; as I've said before, her issues with me are not all out of left field. I'm just constantly being told that there's no way for me to remedy the issues that drove us apart. The way she talks, it's not enough that I recognize, deal with and learn from the mistakes in the past; I should have prevented the issues from happening in the first place. Yeah, that's going to happen. I
know that this is classic WAS rhetoric. You'd think that I'd be used to it by now.
I didn't read the "groveling" thing anywhere
I really didn't think you had, but I wanted to point out that when the LBS "feels" they are groveling, they have gotten off track somewhere, somehow.
I think you will have to lay that boundary about no talking of OM unless in the MC session. (Suggest she talk to IC if she needs to talk about him, but stop talking avout him to H.) And if she cannot have a discussion about the R problems "before" the A started without repeating this old pattern of bringing OM into it, then you will leave. I don't mean permanently, but get away from her. You should know your limits by now. Don't think you hear another talk about great OM made her feel......and you not lose it. You've tried too many times.
Without getting angry or using bad language, tell her firmly (with a lowered voice) that you cannot handle any more discussions about her AP. You do not intend to have a repeated fight b/c it is not solving anything, much less "connecting" the two of you. If she does not honor the boundary and talks about him, you leave the house. Get away from the scene that is emotionally charged and get a hold on yourself.
Look, she's going to think whatever she wants to think. But hopefully she will learn you will no longer stay around to listen to this same talk that ends in a fight.
Do you think you can enforce that one boundary?
I think I can see what she is trying to do, but she is handling it the wrong way. That is why I said the C needs to get her attention about this, before things end in a D. If the C is not offering solutions in what to do at home, what good is the MC doing?
Rzr, your post made me smile. That is exactly what I'm talking about in terms of starting to manage your anger in the moment. Now, take what your IC suggested and start using it on your own prior to getting to the point of needing a time out from the conversation. If you start to feel any of those sensations happening, recognize them, and do something different, such as taking some deep breaths, pointing out that you are getting X emotion, or take the initiative to say you need a set amount of time to cool off. YOU take the lead, and normally the other person will respond in kind.
That's an interesting way to describe anger. I always thought of it as an emotion, but you're right. There's definitely all those other emotions that you named under it for me.
Good that you see this. It might help for you to write down what some of the most common ones are, whether it is here or on paper, and begin to address where they come from. That way you are able to start challenging/doing something about them.
What the hell is she doing to change?" I do like the way you put it; that we're "leading the way". When I can think of it that way, I feel more in charge; I know that a feeling of helplessness is one of my anger triggers. I don't feel in control of my fate, so I lash out.
Ok, so for this one, that is an absolutely valid question to ask. You have been doing most of the heavy lifting, and look at where it has brought YOU. YOU are in control of YOUR fate, not her's, not the marriage's. Remember, DBing is for your first, then M later. By learning to better manage your anger, you will become a better man. By becoming a better man, someone, whether it is your W or someone else, will benefit from it. You will feel more at peace with yourself, and that is what attracts people to you.
As for her change, think about this. Do you really want to continue in an R when the two of you argue in this way? Now, I'm not saying to quit by any means, and let me validate that. Regarding my current sitch, I would not take my W back at the moment. I don't see the work she has done towards reconciling. If I jumped headfirst at the first opportunity, we would not have solved anything that led us to where we are currently, and it would be just another band-aid. However, I do want her back. Your W has work to do as well, and by your actions of learning to control you anger in some of the most difficult moments will show her that things can be different. She will notice.
Reading the last two pages of your thread last night really hit me between the eyes. It's weird. Like, I can almost empathize with your W; I used to talk things to death, too. And I wanted to get everything out. And I wanted to blame H. I wanted to punish him. I wanted him to see (and, I'm ashamed now to admit, "fix") my hurt.
But HE was the one who cheated on ME. Hellllooo?
So, I'm in YOUR brain, too! Like, when you mentioned "groveling," I knew EXACTLY what you meant!
I didn't have to endure my H going through a "withdrawal period," and - especially after reading the challenges you're facing - thank God I didn't. What you're going through right now must be taking astronomical amounts of strength and restraint ... and gallons of Wonka's STFU juice. I don't know how *anyone* who has been cheated on could maintain their cool while their formerly-cheating spouse throws FU-bombs in their face and talks about how great OM/OW made her/him feel, ESPECIALLY when you're both supposed to be working on repairing things.
I know nothing I said is "helping" you; sandi's got that in the bag. And I agree with her entire post above.
From what I'm reading, you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. If you don't talk to W, she says you don't care. If you do talk to W, she can't respect a boundary of no-OM talks. If you do listen to her talk about OM, it sets off your anger (and rightfully so). If you don't talk about OM, you're accused of "not discussing the issues." Dude. That's an impossible position for you to be in. sandi is right: SOMETHING has got to be done.
My H and I agreed that we would try to stick to talking about what happened that led to the affair. He doesn't talk about OW specifically; only about how good she made him feel about himself. And I've been able, when H talks and I ask questions, to keep our conversation geared toward that. (I have had plenty of moments of blowing my lid, too, btw.) But again, his A was strictly physical, so I'm kinda comparing apples to oranges when I look at your sitch and mine.
It seems to me that your first course of action is to figure out, in your own mind, what you can tolerate and what you can't ... and what your reconciliation-efforts can tolerate and what they can't. Talk to MC about it and include EXACTLY what your boundaries will be. Tell W, in front of the MC, that you will listen to her but that if she starts to talk about OM and how great he made her feel, you WILL walk away for a time-out and that it DOES NOT mean you don't care for her or the future of your relationship ... and it DOES NOT mean you're abandoning her. In fact, it's quite the contrary. That "time-out" - recommended by your MC - is meant to HELP the future of your relationship by keeping you from doing or saying something you will regret. I'd get that all out on the table in front of your W and MC.
Forgive me if this comes across as enabling your anger (trying to avoid that is why I couldn't get much more out of my fingertips in last night's post than I did), but: There is NO WAY IN HELL that I would stand there and let my formerly-wayward, cheating spouse rub my nose in his/her AP's sh!t. No way. No how. That needs to stop. Your W is in control of that. But YOU are in control of whether you'll sit there and listen to it. Fear be d@mned, and what your W says about you "not caring" be d@mned. Walk away.
You're showing admirable restraint, Starsky
I know. I'm more like Hutch these days, aren't I?
Reading the last two pages of your thread last night really hit me between the eyes. It's weird. Like, I can almost empathize with your W; I used to talk things to death, too. And I wanted to get everything out. And I wanted to blame H. I wanted to punish him. I wanted him to see (and, I'm ashamed now to admit, "fix") my hurt.
But HE was the one who cheated on ME. Hellllooo?
So, I'm in YOUR brain, too! Like, when you mentioned "groveling," I knew EXACTLY what you meant!
I didn't have to endure my H going through a "withdrawal period," and - especially after reading the challenges you're facing - thank God I didn't. What you're going through right now must be taking astronomical amounts of strength and restraint ... and gallons of Wonka's STFU juice. I don't know how *anyone* who has been cheated on could maintain their cool while their formerly-cheating spouse throws FU-bombs in their face and talks about how great OM/OW made her/him feel, ESPECIALLY when you're both supposed to be working on repairing things.
I know nothing I said is "helping" you; sandi's got that in the bag. And I agree with her entire post above.
From what I'm reading, you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. If you don't talk to W, she says you don't care. If you do talk to W, she can't respect a boundary of no-OM talks. If you do listen to her talk about OM, it sets off your anger (and rightfully so). If you don't talk about OM, you're accused of "not discussing the issues." Dude. That's an impossible position for you to be in. sandi is right: SOMETHING has got to be done.
"Damned if you do and damned if you don't" summarizes it perfectly. She expects me to drop everything and get into an R discussion whenever she's in a bad frame of mind. If I don't (even if it's an outside reason, like I have to actually do work while I'm on the clock),then I don't care and I'm abandoning her. If I do, then I get treated to no boundaries and spew. I should add that this extends to her friends as well. She's angry because none of her friends are "there" for her. I suspect that it's because none of them will cheerlead her fantasy about OM. She wants them to be there for her, but she doesn't want them to express negative opinions about her behavior.
Overarching this is her mindset (she will deny this) that I should just bend over and take whatever I get from her because of my mistakes and failures in the past. As I've said before, she will pay lip service to her contributions to the state of our marriage, but when we get into the nitty-gritty of an R discussion, everything is basically my fault.
It seems to me that your first course of action is to figure out, in your own mind, what you can tolerate and what you can't ... and what your reconciliation-efforts can tolerate and what they can't. Talk to MC about it and include EXACTLY what your boundaries will be. Tell W, in front of the MC, that you will listen to her but that if she starts to talk about OM and how great he made her feel, you WILL walk away for a time-out and that it DOES NOT mean you don't care for her or the future of your relationship ... and it DOES NOT mean you're abandoning her. In fact, it's quite the contrary. That "time-out" - recommended by your MC - is meant to HELP the future of your relationship by keeping you from doing or saying something you will regret. I'd get that all out on the table in front of your W and MC.
Forgive me if this comes across as enabling your anger (trying to avoid that is why I couldn't get much more out of my fingertips in last night's post than I did), but: There is NO WAY IN HELL that I would stand there and let my formerly-wayward, cheating spouse rub my nose in his/her AP's sh!t. No way. No how. That needs to stop. Your W is in control of that. But YOU are in control of whether you'll sit there and listen to it. Fear be d@mned, and what your W says about you "not caring" be d@mned. Walk away.
I'm ashamed to admit this, but I'm still terrified of losing her. It's wrong. It's pathetic. I know it shows up in my anger and defensiveness when I deal with her. She's all I've known my entire adult life and I'm dreading the idea of life without her. I forget that there are times in our marriage where I was almost the WAS.
There. I said it.
I hadn't always felt that way. I've even had days where I almost pulled the trigger myself. I had been able to drop the rope for a while, but then she does or says something that reminds me why I married her. I know I'm not unusual in feeling this way. It even depends on the day. After an insanely hot Latina co-worker flirted with me in the break room the other day, I went home ready for anything W could dish out. The next day, I was back to needy. I know intellectually that I would be fine either way, but I don't want to test that theory. Today I feel on top of the world. Two days ago I didn't. How do I get back on that horse, consistently? I can feel my man card shriveling up in my wallet just typing this. This is why I've had such a hard time enforcing boundaries.
The MC has told her directly that I am not who she should be going to about OM. Not that she listens. She gets in one of her panic states and all she can see is her own pain. No logic, no conscience, no respect for anyone else's feelings, especially mine (seeing as how I caused all our problems). I will say that the time-out does help because I'm able to walk away in a controlled manner, without sending the message that I'm giving up.
I'm ashamed to admit this, but I'm still terrified of losing her.
I'm glad you got that off your chest. It didn't surprise me at all to read it. I could smell your fear from however-many miles away last night in your posts. And if I can sniff it out, you better believe W can, too.
It doesn't make you less of a man to be afraid of losing your W.
I think there's a balance in there, though, Rzr: Okay, keep your testosterone and anger in check; cool it on hammering away at OM in front of W. (He's not the one you married, after all, and he's not the one who broke a vow made with you.) But I'd certainly strongly encourage you to make sure that your fear of losing your W doesn't lead you to have to - as one vet says - go pull your balls out of her purse.
All I'm about to write may be flying in the face of everything else you've been told about the best way to handle things in your case; I am not as deep in your sitch as others. But something has been gnawing at me about your W since last night, and your latest response just added to it.
Yesterday, this (from you) really stuck out to me:
She let loose on both me and OM. I listened calmly for about 10 minutes and then it just exploded in me ... We're talking now and her state of mind is far better today.
There's *something* about your W that feels/seems really familiar to me. I don't know if it's that I, myself, can identify with her or if it's that she reminds me of someone I know. Maybe it's a little of both. Okay, okay, if I'm being *really* honest: Her dramatics actually remind me A LOT of my earlier self ... and (I'm so glad I'm anonymous right now) ... my SISTER!
My sister just turned 40. She is as sharp as a tack and as smart as they come. She's beautiful, competitive, driven and highly successful. She makes six figures. She's working on her Ph.D. But she has been D twice. And she's working on H #3. She talks a big game about how physically AND emotionally independent she is ... and she has A LOT of people convinced.
I am not one of them.
She's ACTUALLY very needy. Clingy. Very reliant on external approval. But you would NEVER know it. In her Ms, she wore the pants, and her H's voices quivered when they stood up to her (*IF* they stood up to her). She's freakin' MOUTHY as all get out. Her eyes will burn holes through you when she's angry. She acts like - and is the first to tell you that - she knows what she wants, when she wants it and HOW she wants it. And that's how she runs the show with men who love her. If SHE wants to talk about x, you're gonna sit down and LISTEN to her talk about x! And don't DARE interrupt her with your nonsense bullsh!t.
But, Rzr, when a man falls for her and jumps in line like a good, little duck - JUST LIKE THAT - she's DONE with him.
I'm the only person who calls a spade a spade to my sister, and I'm the only person in the world that she'll be vulnerable in front of. I told her during one of her "I-told-HIM" tirades not too long ago: "What you NEED is a man - a MAN - who stands up to you and your crap and your big mouth. A man who will every once in a while tell you, lovingly and respectfully, to sit down and shut the he!l up!"
Her eyes got as big around as saucers. And then she smiled real big and said, "Yes. You're exactly right."
What does this have to do with you, Rzr?
Maybe nothing.
But, like I said, there's just something familiar about your W to me. Could it be that she is the kind of woman my sister is? When I read about your W's reactions and responses ... and when I read that you lost your cool and lashed out and then the next morning your W's "state of mind" was strangely "much better," I dunno. I just wonder if that's a clue that your W is attracted to a, you know, MAN. A fearless, convicted MAN.
Now I'm not telling you to go and tell your W to sit down and shut up. That's something I can tell my sister she needs, but that's because she's my sister. Lol. The point is, though, I, too, am a confident, capable, mouthy (at times - lol) woman. And one of my biggest complaints to my H, once he came back home, is that he always let me run the show and call all the shots. He thought - because that's always who I was - that that's what I wanted. It wasn't. It isn't. I'm a woman. And yeah, a strong one. But I'm a woman. And I want a MAN as a husband. One that's not afraid to respectfully, but firmly, put me in my place every once in a while if I'm in the "wrong place."
It might p!ss me off at first, you know? But that kind of decisiveness - that kind of leadership - is freaking HOT in a man. And I could be wrong, but I don't think I'm the only girl out here who feels that way.
Maybe I've rambled about something that doesn't at all apply to your W or your situation. But I just feel like your W may be one of "those" women. And IF she is, then pu$sy-footing around her because you fear losing her is going to be your very worst enemy. It's going to backfire on you.
I don't feel qualified enough to tell you what to do; I'm not familiar enough with your sitch. But I know you've stated you're scared of losing your W. And I know she disrespects you enough to talk about OM to your face. And perhaps there's a piece of the puzzle I didn't catch - or something that maybe you didn't write about to connect a couple dots - but I drew an interesting parallel between you losing your cool and your W's better "state of mind" the very next morning. And I thought I'd throw allllll this out there as food for thought for you.
I really hesitate to say this, because I don't want someone bashing me for saying that we shouldn't listen to what our spouse *says* they want. But I really wonder if your W is like my sister: she *says* she wants you to be one way but her *actions* show she NEEDS you to be something else.
Learned from the best, Starsky.
Gold is right, Train.
You hit on something. My W sounds something like your sister. Not as ambitious, but certainly opinionated, expects undivided attention, and has been running the show for most of our M. I handed over control of much of my life to her when we got married (went straight from home to college to marriage without taking a breath). That caused a cycle of resentment in me that has continued until now.
I was a classic "nice guy" (many of you are familiar with that reference). My primary concern was keeping her happy, because by god you knew it when she wasn't. I stopped going to church because she didn't like organized religion. She never forbade me from going, but I didn't risk her disapproval. We're living in the town she wants to live in. I gave up the career plans I had been working for since junior high because it would have required moving, and she refused to move. Now I've wasted 17 years in a career I don't particularly like. When she fell in love with me in college I had a passion and purpose. I had a good sense of humor. I was confident in myself as a man. I lost much of that after we got married. I can see now where that helped set the stage for my current sitch.
It hit me tonight while I was working out. The old, meek, people pleasing Rzr is dying (except when it comes to my W, apparently) and thank God, because all being that nice guy has bought me is a mediocre career, a ho-hum life, unhappy M and broken familial ties. I've regained much of my positive self image and I'm approaching life with far more confidence now. I can see improvement in my relationships with people outside the house, but it's harder to see here.
One of the big reasons she says she doesn't respect me is that I failed to stand up to my toxic parents. That's a legitimate complaint. If I wasn't capable of standing up for myself, how would I have been able to stand up for her? She cites very specific reasons for why she doesn't trust me and is not attracted to me, but I can't help but wonder if really it boils down to the fact that I was meek and pleasing with her. OM is less physically attractive than I am (by my W's admission), but he was funny, confident, charming, and, well, masculine. All those things at which I had apparently not been very good.
I have noticed that sometimes when I have taken a stronger stand with her, she eventually responds positively, after some drama. We had one of the worst fights of our sitch on Tuesday night; it got to the point where I was packing bags. I got insanely angry at her over some things she had said. Things eventually calmed down between us and we went to bed on good terms. The next morning she told me (in calm tones for her) that I needed to connect with her on an emotional level; I would never be able to talk or certainly bully her into falling back in love with me. That's a perfectly valid point. Since then she hasn't exactly been exuberantly happy, but she's been warmer towards me and calmer.
I'm not saying that I need to go lose my s*** every time we have a heated discussion; If I can keep calm while clearly engaging her when appropriate and enforcing boundaries, I'm sure I can get farther with her.
Great feedback!
