Thank you Wonka. Your questions are very valuable and I'll answer them here.
I've been thinking and learning along the lines of your questions this entire weekend. I'm a little overwhelmed while at the same time thinking I'm making this more complicated than it needs to be.
So I'm tired. Tired of doing what isn't working. I know something's working when I'm feeling happy and energetic and I'm choosing the thoughts and actions that feed my happiness. It's a conscious thing.
So...
What is causing me pain?
My focus on my W. Simple as that.
What is making you feel angry?
My focus on my W not meeting my expectations.
What would doing the work look like to me?
Slowing down... examining my thoughts... questioning if a thought supports my R goals... refocusing on the one thought that works... "I love myself".... asking "If I love myself, what would I do?"... doing it... repeat.
What do you hope to achieve from that standpoint?
Happiness and satisfaction at the end of the day that I moved closer to my 6 month goals.
What kind of man do you want to be?
I want to be a centered, fun, relaxed, motivated, comfortable, purposeful, and secure man.
What kind of father do you want to be?
A father that is an example to his son so he can achieve the above.
What are your core values?
Poise, Enjoyment, Relaxation, Fidelity, Fitness, Discipline, Playfulness, Gratitude.
Now I just get on with it.
Journaling...
Friday night after the basketball game was very hard with W screaming at S12. W did apologize and then promised to not "bother" us on Saturday.
On Saturday, she did text and asked to keep S12 Sunday afternoon. I started a 180 then to get our conversations more friendly. DB Coach Chuck recommended against going completely dark and suggested improving the communication we do have, validating her friendly communications on her feelings, and along with the already recommended consistently friendly and prompt and polite approach.
So I did "Good morning, How are you?" in response to her text and she became polite as well. I wished her good day and maybe went to far telling her if she wanted to talk about Friday night I would listen.
In her last text reply that day, she ended with a smily face.
First thing this morning... she texted "Good morning HP" and let me know when she would pick up and return S12. Different times than she asked for yesterday. I returned the good morning and said S12 would be ready.
Before S12 left, I asked him how he felt about his mom. He said "Bad." I told him his mom loves him and to make sure he is nice and respectful to his mom. I mentioned to never hang up the phone on his mom.
A little after S12 left, W called me. As she has S12 and it could have been an emergency, I picked up and answered sounding upbeat.
She asked how I was. "Fine. How are you?" She says... "Better." She also sounds upbeat.
She said she had dropped of S12 at a classmate's house to play. She had asked him to look at 2 apartments with her but he said he didn't want to go. She mentioned where the apartments were.
Then she asked me if I planed to stay in the condo all year.
I said "I haven't thought about it yet."
She asked where I planned to move when I left the condo.
I said "I haven't thought about it yet."
She said "yes I guess that's a lot to think about" and mentioned she wanted to get a place close to where me and S12 were.
She also mentioned her plan to spend 2 months with her aunt was not working for S12 so she wanted to move sooner rather than later.
She asked how S12 was yesterday. I said "He was fine. In good spirits." Friendly but short answers.
She likes details in conversation. Giving her details in conversation was a 180 I used soon after BD that she seemed to like. Now, though, I figure she doesn't get it anymore as I am dark.
She then said... "You hinted before that you might want to talk. Is there anything you want to talk about?"
"No, nothing I want to talk about."
Long pause.
She says "Oookaay..."
I reply... "Is there anything else? Ok I'm going to go. Good luck finding an apartment."
She says "Ok." I hang up.
I was friendly but brief the whole time. No anger. Though, after I hung up the phone, I felt irritation that she keeps calling for non emergencies.
Then, almost immediately, she calls again. I reacted from my irritation and didn't answer. She didn't leave a VM.
So she called looking for a conversation and then wanted to talk more. This after her screaming on Friday. Again, like Sandi was saying, she wants conversation.
DB Coach Chuck I believe would say to encourage her to talk and I really listen and validate. I don't know that I should after Friday. Sticking then with letting her calls go to VM and delaying answering her texts.
Later, when S12 was due to get back... she sent a text saying they would be late. A few minutes later I respond "Ok." She then responds... "Didn't want to stop playing!"
S12 then called me to say he was on his way up. He sounded very happy and I heard his mom in the background. She had asked him to call.
When he got back... he was very happy and said he had a great time with mom.
She also dropped off a second pair of new sneaker with him. The receipt was inside. The 2 new pair of sneaker she bought for him totaled almost $250. Much more than we've ever spent on shoes.
Tonight, before S12 went to bed, I had him call his mom and say goodnight. I will be doing this every night to keep their communication open.
...
So I'm dark and polite even friendly. I show only an upbeat me. I show no interest in what she does or where she goes. If she talks, I keep it brief and then excuse myself. I make sure S12 knows his mom loves him and she must be treated with respect. And I just keep doing that.
Pulling way back.
No expectations.
No drama.
That is my goal for interactions with W this week.
I'm looking now to keep the road home smooth. I recognize that my angry actions the past few weeks were about my wanting to be in control and to punish W. I'm committed now to doing the hard line things I must do with an attitude of love and compassion instead of punishment and anger.
I have the final bills from our old home for her to pay a part of. Also the S12 tuition and the taxes. She needs money to get an apartment soon. I'm about to hit her with these bills. How can I do that lovingly instead of her feeling like I'm punishing her with life lessons?
HP,
Your interactions with W today has improved a lot...no? All because of your conscious awareness of how you choose to act with her. Well done!
Keep going in this direction.
I have the final bills from our old home for her to pay a part of. Also the S12 tuition and the taxes. She needs money to get an apartment soon. I'm about to hit her with these bills. How can I do that lovingly instead of her feeling like I'm punishing her with life lessons?
This part is tying loose ends of your old place and your approach will need to come from a place of collaboration as in "hey, there's some stuff that we need to take care of....(rattle of the items). How would you like to handle this? Here are my thoughts (detail them). What do you think?"
Just the facts ma'am.....then stay out of the way. Let life show her the lessons which we are seeing here already based on her comments about the heat, long drive to school, looking at apts, etc. W isn't liking it at all. Trust the process.
DB Coach Chuck recommended against going completely dark and suggested improving the communication we do have, validating her friendly communications on her feelings, and along with the already recommended consistently friendly and prompt and polite approach.
If this is what he recommends then why did you write this:
I was friendly but brief the whole time. No anger. Though, after I hung up the phone, I felt irritation that she keeps calling for non emergencies.
Then, almost immediately, she calls again. I reacted from my irritation and didn't answer. She didn't leave a VM.
So she called looking for a conversation and then wanted to talk more. This after her screaming on Friday. Again, like Sandi was saying, she wants conversation.
If she wants to talk, why do not listen and why does it irritate you all the time? She is calling you for non emergencies b/c she is your W and wants to talk to you. She is clearly a talker, and someone who processes out loud to get to conclusion. It would be really easy for you to listen to her and validate her given the number of times she reaches out. Who cares that she screamed on Friday...she is trying, reaching out to you and allowing you not to go dark. You have to improve communication per the coach.
HP,
The quote you posted about The world ending...forgiveness was so great, it brought tear to my eyes.
For me, as I learned to defend myself from what hurts me, I normally felt anger and got free of the bad feelings. I was always very proud of how easy it is for me to let go on people, things, life. As I was angry, it would make it all easier for me to just disconnect. Now, I know better that it is not the way. I was not dealing with my problems, issues, I was just postponing the pain until it is now a giant snow ball. Thanks for posting it. It's great.
Regarding your W, your improvement is great, you are trying very hard and it counts. It's a day by day exercise. The more you do it, the easiest it will get. Like Wonka said, don't beat yourself, be patient and gentle with yourself too.
Your wife has a lot of guilt and she is processing it as she goes. Her reaching out to you may be somewhat the guilt that is speaking out. She needs to process all her feelings too, and if you keep friendly, polite she may be able to process it with a positive attitude towards you.
Be careful, not every day will be all summer feelings, there will be the dark days. As much as you have good intentions, there will be days you will feel completely shut down. Just breath and give yourself some space to just get through the day. Next day, things will be better.
You have been growing a lot, and are seeing the results of you self improvement. Your are listening and following advice from others.
I hope things will get better for you. Life is hard, but we have a choice to make it at least enjoyable. Keep the hard work.
My pastor said last sunday that we need to think of God and us like this: When pain hits us so hard we think:
"We are the son and God circle around us and answer all our prayers to make us happier.
But after suffering so much and for so long we think and conclude:
"God is the sun and we are all little star and planets that circle around him. He is the energy we need to keep moving."
Today, my pastor said that sometimes we have the "Wait" moment in our lives. Right now for example, we have no control of what our S will do and decide. So it is the wait moment. We can choose to move on with business or we can look into ourselves and say that I will do something in God's name, It will not be about myself, it will be about Him.
Good luck HP, I am very proud of you and how you are handling things right now. Keep doing the hard work.
(((((((HP)))))))))
Pink
hi Sandy,
Just want to say how sorry I am you need to face it all right now.
Your post is very inspiring, I will think a lot about that post. Even try to get closer to my extended family.
My prayers are with you!
((((((((Sandi))))))))))
Pink
Thank you all for such sweet and comforting words. And thank you, HP, for allowing me to borrow your thread. It is very early where I am and I am feeling the effects of my emotional day yesterday, but my DB family helped me more than you know.
The loved one I lost was my mother. Such a model of what a lady should be! She was my best friend and the void she left in my life will be filled with the inspiration and memories she gave me. As far as I know, the only time I really shocked, and I'm sure, must have disappointed her greatly was when she discovered I was involved with OM. And yet, her motherly love surpassed that disappointment and she did not forsake me. So, I only tell you this about her as a tribute to her.
I know the majority of you are LBS's and suffer more greatly than I can imagine. I have been treated so kindly by most who come to the board. If I can encourage anyone to have hope and not give up, I want to try and do it. One day, your WAW'S will have to face the impact of her actions. She may be seeing some of it now, but has not really accepted that she is to blame. As the fog lifts and reality hits her harder and harder until her fantasy crashes down around her, she will begin to see how wrong she has been. Will she ever come to you with a broken and remorseful heart? It depends on the woman, her pride, the circumstances of the stitch, and you.
I can't remember, now, exactly how long it took me to overcome my pride enough to go to my H and truly present to him my remorseful and pathetic excuse of an apology. I think it was at least a year after the A ended, but I'm not sure. I actually prayed to God to give me the remorse I should have, b/c as a Christian I knew it was needed in order for me and my H to heal. That may not make sense to those who do not believe the way I do, but that was for me. Anyway, I can't imagine how long it may have taken if I had not asked God, maybe never.....IDK.
Please don't take this to be discouraging news for you, but more as information to let you know that for some WAW's it comes sooner.....or much later, but I doubt it comes quickly for very many. It is a process, like so many other things we have to go through. That is why I encourage you to make a life for yourself, while she is going through this process. It will not help to wait and watch, and getting angry b/c she is not doing what you want her to do. It will not push her to repent sooner. You will
probably never understand this woman she is right now. She doesn't even understand herself. Every WAW's journey is somewhat different. I count myself extremely blessed to have found those special people who were here and shined the light on the truth bright enough for me to find my way back.
Many of you are facing much more serious issues than I did, and my heart hurts for you. I see how lives can be destroyed, but I also know that lives can be restored. I wish I had the eloquent words and warmth that Vanilla has in her beautiful posts (thank you Vanilla). I wish my talent was editifying others. All I have to give is what I have learned, and hope that it might spare some of you a few mistakes along the way. But we all are still learning about life, aren't we? As Vanilla said, love is powerful. I believe it is more powerful than hate and anger and unforgiveness.
I just wanted to say that I appreciate everyone who responded yesterday, and I pray you each will be blessed for your compassion.
And now, I am turning HP's thread back over to him.
Hey HP,
I am going to throw one more little piece of advice out here for you. Slow down! Meaning mentally slow down. Allow yourself to breathe and to have time away from the drama that is your life right now. One of my regrets is how much control I gave my situation and how I allowed it to take up too much of my day. I ended up losing a great job, great family home, and most importantly time in my life.
I understand that the fact of the matter is you feel like you are engaged in some form of battle so as a man you go into the warrior mode and think constantly about your next move or plan or strategy. You have to stop this part of it from taking over and allow yourself time away from it.
I liked your answers as for what you want to be, that needs to be where you put your focus. Particularly right now the "what kind of dad" you want to be. Your child is struggling and feeling things that they should not be feeling at that age. Remember that you are the guardian for your child. Your #1 job is not to save your marriage, it is to minimize any adverse affects on your kids. There is a great movie out there that I watched while dealing with all this, it is called "Courageous". It is a religious backed movie but the message is the important part. Being Jewish myself I just separated out the religious undertones and received the message about what God intends for us as a father in regards top protecting and leading our children into adulthood. I highly recommend you rent it and watch the message. I think it will help you tremendously with the situation with your child.
Ian
Thank you all for such sweet and comforting words. And thank you, HP, for allowing me to borrow your thread. It is very early where I am and I am feeling the effects of my emotional day yesterday, but my DB family helped me more than you know.
The loved one I lost was my mother. Such a model of what a lady should be! She was my best friend and the void she left in my life will be filled with the inspiration and memories she gave me. As far as I know, the only time I really shocked, and I'm sure, must have disappointed her greatly was when she discovered I was involved with OM. And yet, her motherly love surpassed that disappointment and she did not forsake me. So, I only tell you this about her as a tribute to her.
Sandi... sending you and your family my best wishes. Your post, like all your posts here, is so very moving and powerful and I know the love in your words will help everyone who reads them no matter the sitch. Please take care and thank you for your wonderful work.
Hey HP,
I am going to throw one more little piece of advice out here for you. Slow down! Meaning mentally slow down. Allow yourself to breathe and to have time away from the drama that is your life right now. One of my regrets is how much control I gave my situation and how I allowed it to take up too much of my day. I ended up losing a great job, great family home, and most importantly time in my life.
I understand that the fact of the matter is you feel like you are engaged in some form of battle so as a man you go into the warrior mode and think constantly about your next move or plan or strategy. You have to stop this part of it from taking over and allow yourself time away from it.
I liked your answers as for what you want to be, that needs to be where you put your focus. Particularly right now the "what kind of dad" you want to be. Your child is struggling and feeling things that they should not be feeling at that age. Remember that you are the guardian for your child. Your #1 job is not to save your marriage, it is to minimize any adverse affects on your kids. There is a great movie out there that I watched while dealing with all this, it is called "Courageous". It is a religious backed movie but the message is the important part. Being Jewish myself I just separated out the religious undertones and received the message about what God intends for us as a father in regards top protecting and leading our children into adulthood. I highly recommend you rent it and watch the message. I think it will help you tremendously with the situation with your child.
Ian
Thank you sofaraway. Yes you are right and I will slow down even more. My reaction to all this is to do something and, even though doing nothing is something, it's a new and so far difficult thing for me to do.
Even right now when I making efforts to choose better thoughts, my mind drifts back to "what can I do!" or "What is she thinking!" or "What's going to happen next!"
It's exhausting and I know I can't go on like this b/c I see my boy struggling and I need to be more present. I think I did well over the weekend going slower and just letting interactions with W go by. I'm working to let my pain go by whenever it surfaces too.
Getting better everyday.
Thank you again.
You have been growing a lot, and are seeing the results of you self improvement. Your are listening and following advice from others.
I hope things will get better for you. Life is hard, but we have a choice to make it at least enjoyable. Keep the hard work.
Hello Pink. Thank you so much for your post. I needed words like your today and you've really lifted me up. I am choosing to make today enjoyable and productive. I do hope I'm getting the advice right. I'm going to write again my understanding of the advice I've received in a later post so I can refocus and hopefully be of help to anyone in my sitch.
Thank you again Pink.
DB Coach Chuck recommended against going completely dark and suggested improving the communication we do have, validating her friendly communications on her feelings, and along with the already recommended consistently friendly and prompt and polite approach.
If this is what he recommends then why did you write this:
I was friendly but brief the whole time. No anger. Though, after I hung up the phone, I felt irritation that she keeps calling for non emergencies.
Then, almost immediately, she calls again. I reacted from my irritation and didn't answer. She didn't leave a VM.
So she called looking for a conversation and then wanted to talk more. This after her screaming on Friday. Again, like Sandi was saying, she wants conversation.
If she wants to talk, why do not listen and why does it irritate you all the time? She is calling you for non emergencies b/c she is your W and wants to talk to you. She is clearly a talker, and someone who processes out loud to get to conclusion. It would be really easy for you to listen to her and validate her given the number of times she reaches out. Who cares that she screamed on Friday...she is trying, reaching out to you and allowing you not to go dark. You have to improve communication per the coach.
Hello Happy. I'm cutting back on talking... being there for her emotionally... b/c she is continuing an A. It wouldn't make sense for me to be overly open and available to her under the circumstances.
OTOH... you're right she is a talker and she is trying to connect. She asks to hear my feelings gets upset when I don't communicate. I understand it's her need to feel in control and feel less guilt but does that help me?
So I do struggle here.
Before I knew the extent of her A, but after BD, I made a great effort to listen to her. We had great conversations and it seemed to me we connected a little during that time.
All the while, though, she was gaslighting me and being extremely disrespectful to me with the way she continued her A. A big part of my turning around my sitch was showing her I would not tolerate her disrespect. She freaked out in a panic when I did.
So, other than the going dark and being brief and polite... I'm not sure how much re-connecting I should attempt right now if any. It makes sense for me to be angry and distant and at the same time I have to be an adult and respectful about it.
I'm not sure how allowing her to open up to me now gets her to start looking at me as her husband again.
Oh and on the irritation... I have told her while she is in her A, I will only accept emergency phone calls related to our son. She knows this yet still calls and texts daily. I'm dealing with the irritation better and do not feel sure if I should continue to let her calls go to VM and respond later if at all... or to start taking her calls, be polite and brief, and be done to keep our communication open and civil.
HP, IMHO, going dark means when a couple never sees each other nor communicates, which is almost impossible if you co-parent. Sometimes, trying to give the illusion of being dark may appear to be something entirely different to her. Just something to consider, if you run out of anything to think about.
I do believe there are times to pull back or not engage, but I wouldn't call it going dark.
Hello Sandi and toots.
Yes I see going dark may be the wrong term in my case. So going dim.
I'm just going by this from Wonka...
1) No more talks (like the latest text exchange)
2) No more responding to texts UNLESS it involves S11
3) When you have S11, W must respect your time and not blow up your phone
4) When W has S11, get out of the house and do something for you
5) Join Meet Up groups
6) Put a stop to W using S11's phone to get through to you immediately when she does it
7) Focus on logistics on S11 related matters only
8) Be cordial when responding to W's texts or emails..short and on topic
That's all I'm focusing on doing. I know I'll be doing this for many months.
What DB Coach Chuck suggested was to do more... to engage her more as she likes to talk. To allow some friendship to come back as she seems to want. To listen to her emotions and mirror them.
I just don't know if this is the time to allow that. With her call yesterday, I could have engaged more as she did want to talk. The last time I called her and she talked a lot about S12 saying he was depressed... she said it meant a lot to her to talk and hoped we could keep doing it.
I think Sandi that your post here says it best...
I believe when a couple separates, there needs to be a period of time where they should avoid contact with each other. It is so easy to trigger something during a quick exchange, texting, etc. They need that space from each other to regroup and calm down where they feel a bit more balanced in their emotional equilibrium.
This is why I do not agree with the idea of getting all buddy-buddy. How could it be genuine? IMO, she needs to know he is not happy about what she has done to the family, and frankly, he is not interested in being her friend. He is done! That is the only message that will cause her to rethink her actions.
The WAW and LBH should be civil, and that is all, during this adjustment period. Otherwise, the LBH will be putting all this unnecessary pressure on himself......just like HP is doing now. He should not be concerned now she feels about him GAL. It is ludicrous! He left that stuff behind him......or should have.
My problem may be... despite my anger or maybe b/c of it... she knows I'm not done. I understand only time and me really letting go could change that. With these contacts... how do I show that I've let go?
In any case... I just want to settle into a consistent approach and just keep doing it to reduce the drama and get out of her way.
Once you really are able to let go, you won't worry about showing her. She will be able to tell.
I don't know if you have any other relationships you can compare, but maybe in the past when you broke up with a girlfriend and you knew when you really let it go. It no longer rules your life. You will always have a special place in your heart for your W, but it won't be the fury and frustration you experience now. You will be able to separate your life and emotions from being entangled with her drama. Her interactions with you or S12 will not be the dictator it seems to be at the moment.
When a person has inner peace, we seem to be able to sense it.....don't you agree? Just as she is able to know when you are silently angry, she will know when you are at peace.
If I had to use one word to describe how you would feel when you lay that rope down, it would be "peace".
Hpoirot,
This last page has so many helpful things in it. I had a WAW set on Divorce. She felt that was the answer to her depression (I feel..lost herself in the marriage/child). She may still feel that way. I tried DB and it upset her, because I was not listening to what she wanted. I was not "hearing her". She wanted a D.
Now, I am emotionally drained and try to also have no communication unless it is about S4. I avoid chit chat, but am polite and answer her when she asks questions, though vaguely. I ask her nothing personal, yet she volunteers information. I smile and am polite. I am "dark" other than that. I try to be empathetic when she is upset about parenting issues, yet offer her no advice. I simply lead, as she lets me.
I am post divorce (4 months), post moving out (3 months), post holiday time together (family in town/dinners/birthdays). Now is time to focus on me and not let her have such control over my emotions. How can do you fully detach emotionally? Sandi2?
Sandi2, This is just what I needed/AGAIN today.
"I believe when a couple separates, there needs to be a period of time where they should avoid contact with each other. It is so easy to trigger something during a quick exchange, texting, etc. They need that space from each other to regroup and calm down where they feel a bit more balanced in their emotional equilibrium.
This is why I do not agree with the idea of getting all buddy-buddy. How could it be genuine? IMO, she needs to know he is not happy about what she has done to the family, and frankly, he is not interested in being her friend. He is done! That is the only message that will cause her to rethink her actions.
The WAW and LBH should be civil, and that is all, during this adjustment period. Otherwise, the LBH will be putting all this unnecessary pressure on himself......just like HP is doing now. He should not be concerned now she feels about him GAL. It is ludicrous! He left that stuff behind him......or should have."
I guess letting her go is scary. I feel I will lose her for good. That is what keeps me tangled. I know she sees my hurt/frustration and knows she caused all this stuff for me, S4, and herself. How do I get to her without letting go? Better yet, how do I let go in order to get to her?
Journaling...
Hopefully interactions with W are getting boring...
Today was icy in my city. Got a call early this morning from S12's school emergency system saying the opening today would be delayed. Immediately got a text from W asking if I got a call about the delay and repeating the information. I don't respond and go back to sleep.
Later... get a text from W saying her morning was flexible and asking if I needed her to drive S12 to school. I don't answer immediately. I figure, if I did, I would contact her and ask.
30 minutes later... she calls. I let it go to VM. She immediately calls again.
I text her back... "Good morning W. No ride needed thanks."
She replies... "Hi HP. OK. Thanks."
After I drop off S12 W texts and asks if she can pick up s12 after school, take him for a snack, and bring him back to the condo.
45 minutes later I reply... "Hello W. That's fine."
She replies 30 minutes later... "OK. Thanks."
So keeping it to just the facts.
She's offered to drive S12 to and from school more often in return for more nights for S12 in the condo. She has not changed the schedule again yet so we'll see.
Adjusting my attitude when I get a text from W from "what the hell does she want now" to "OK a text."
She will call if I don't answer her texts so I'll be more prompt... 15 minutes for a reply.
This all seems ridiculous.
Dearest HP,
It just seems like BAU to me. We all schedule stuff and W seems like she is trying to be helpful here.
I left my phone at home this morning, H kindly brought it in for me, so thank you H. Pleasant, normal, ordinary stuff.
Routine. I respond promptly to texts and I offer pleasantries. Tonight I may get spew, so may need to STFU and later enforce the boundary. Be prompt, civil and a little warmth, 80% return.
You will thank yourself for it. Just ignore motives and queries take this at face value. Think sugar and nice and easy.
Sweetness and light
Vanilla
Nice to know I am not the only method/rule making guy here. I do the same thing with texts/VM.
If I reply right away, it feels like pursuit to me. I prefer to be "busy" (unless emergency) and get to it when I can. No priority other than kids. WAW can wait her turn as she chose to not be #1 anymore.
Hi HP,
It's all boring and her calling bothers you. But, can you picture what would be if she does not call at all and you have no chance to talk to her or not even a reason to call her?
I was very upset with my H calling, text and want to be nice to me, and be friends, and one day wants a D and another says he does love me. It was killing me, driving me crazy, I was inside his roller coaster of emotions and to be able to detach I asked him to back off. I told him I needed my space to put some order in my life and forget him romantically.
Since Tuesday last week I got one message and on call. In some ways it is very good. I am able to breath again, but I have this hole inside me. I keep wondering what he is up to, I keep thinking if it was the right thing to do since it will make it easier for him to totally take me out of his life.
So, the coin has two sides and we need to choose one. I have been less hopeful lately and it hurts. I lifted my sitch to God now, be what will be. I totally lost any control of this situation, I have no idea of what will happen if it has any chance to happen. Now, my only choice is to detach further and have no expectations what so ever.
To make it even worse, I need to talk to my L to develop my D settlement, which will go pretty bad w/H since it will probably ruin his financial life. When it all happen I think we will be done for good.
So, I am giving you some perspective to think about what would be better for you right now.
Can you try to build up from here, with dialog, caring, patience?
Do you need her to back off and leave you alone for awhile?
Do you want her constant chit chat or you rather have her silence right now?
It's a choice and it's your alone. You know who you are and what you need and want. Just remember that you will get what you are looking for.
I did it and I am not very sure if it was good for me. I miss my H around, miss talking to him, and I have no opportunity to show anything to him anymore. Now it's me and my life.
Think about...
Hugs,
Pink
Journaling...
I don't respond and go back to sleep.
I don't answer immediately. I figure, if I did, I would contact her and ask.
30 minutes later... she calls. I let it go to VM. She immediately calls again.
I text her back... "Good morning W. No ride needed thanks."
She replies... "Hi HP. OK. Thanks."
After I drop off S12 W texts and asks if she can pick up s12 after school, take him for a snack, and bring him back to the condo.
45 minutes later I reply... "Hello W. That's fine."
She replies 30 minutes later... "OK. Thanks."
So keeping it to just the facts.
Adjusting my attitude when I get a text from W from "what the hell does she want now" to "OK a text."
She will call if I don't answer her texts so I'll be more prompt... 15 minutes for a reply.
This all seems ridiculous.
So here is the thing, why in the hell is there a timer on any of this? Lets go back to the basics, if it has to do with S12 there should be no timer. No 15 minutes, no 45 minutes, no assumption of a call back. If you know the answer, give it. There should have been no going back to sleep it should have been this text:
"Good morning W. No ride needed thanks."
and then crash again. What I cannot stress to you enough is that it is not a game. It is respect and responsibility. Again, when it comes to your child your relationship means jack shi^! Your priority is to provide for your child and coparent to the best of your ability. No games, just responses that are matter of fact. Your answer was great, just needs to be said right away.
The reason this all seems ridiculous is because you are not being natural. Be natural HP, be a good guy who is just doing his best. Respond with respect about your kid. Do not delay in order to make a statement or serve a purpose. Respond to be the solution to the issue. Humility and sensibility will go a long way for you. Let it go and behave based on your belief system in being a good dad and co-parent. The rest is just fluff and smoke and mirrors. Follow your heart and what it is telling you to do.
Ian
^^^^ yep.
I was baffled as to why you had to ignore her text this am?
As for Wonka ' s advice to not respond to anything that's not an emergency. .. I respect Wonka tremendously and think she is often right on the money. In this case, however... I think rule #1 of DB applies: do what works. The ignoring was not working. When you respond politely, you more often than not shut down the center action more quickly and peacefully than ignoring.
I think she will get your message ("leave me alone" ) more quickly with short, unemotional responses than with ignoring.
And if you have been cordial and polite, at some point later you can calmly set a polite but firm boundary.. not out of anger.
Claire
I think Wonka was giving her view when the sitch was different.
Now is the time for a different response as the sitch has moved on.
Warmth is the order of the day.
V
Hello sofaraway, claire and Vanilla. sofaraway yes you're right and I'm going to do as you say from now on. No timer... just respect and responsibility. No more punishment or ignoring or frustration.
But I am very frustrated right now.
S12 was very very sad again tonight saying "How long is this going to last?" I did not text his mom. Instead, I sat and talked with him about it. He says he thinks about what's happening all the time. He was down.
I served up some spaghetti and meatballs and we watched his favorite TV show... a show I don't like but he loved to watch with his mom... and now he's happy and going to take his shower.
I'm devastated again. Just hurt.
I want to call her and yell at her to just come home.
And I miss her.
I was reading Denver_2010's thread again. 9 months into his sitch and he was making the same mistakes I make... putting a timer on text responses... tying his moods to his W's roller-coaster... showing anger... pursuing... not letting go.
This is the start of my 4th week of separation. My W is angry with/feels pity for me and is in love with a stranger. My son is depressed and misses his family. I am messing up simply responding to my W's texts.
I have to do better and I'm not feeling like better me and I'm not even getting being dim/dark right.
I'm not even sure I know what it means to "do the work on me." To learn who "I" am so I can naturally be better me. To do nothing about my M and just have faith.
I'm having a very low moment. I know it will pass.
I just want to call her. What are we doing?
Go rent that movie I recommended to you. Several of the answers are right there.
and HP...... You're going to be ok......
Ian
good one
Hello sofaraway, claire and Vanilla. sofaraway yes you're right and I'm going to do as you say from now on. No timer... just respect and responsibility. No more punishment or ignoring or frustration.
But I am very frustrated right now.
S12 was very very sad again tonight saying "How long is this going to last?" I did not text his mom. Instead, I sat and talked with him about it. He says he thinks about what's happening all the time. He was down.
Yikes, I'm trying so hard to be gentle with you but gee whiz HP, where do you think your son learned to obsess about his mother?
B/C most boys his age are not nearly as tuned in to their moms...
You are not teaching him the lessons that I think you want to teach him.
He's watching you more than you realize. Watching your behavior more than hearing your words.
And make no mistake, HP. Your son will face betrayal and setbacks in his life. We all do. He'll go to what/whom he knows when he chooses his reaction to that.
What is it you want him to learn?
Perhaps you could teach him that no matter how much pain he's in, it's not fatal pain AND it's not eternal...
We teach best, by how we act. Demonstrate this^^ to him by living it yourself.
Make sense?
I served up some spaghetti and meatballs and we watched his favorite TV show... a show I don't like but he loved to watch with his mom... and now he's happy and going to take his shower.
I'm devastated again. Just hurt.
Why are you devastated? HE is happy, so this is not about him. Seriously, it's not.
I want to call her and yell at her to just come home.
And I miss her.
Uh, if you want to make sure things are clear (but over) go ahead and call her, yell and then hang up with a nice dollop of fury...
oh wait, that's what will NOT work...
How much longer are you going to stay in that cheese less tunnel?
I'm asking you that, b/c I'm quite sure you are the only one who can move yourself out of that "room".
I was reading Denver_2010's thread again. 9 months into his sitch and he was making the same mistakes I make... putting a timer on text responses... tying his moods to his W's roller-coaster... showing anger... pursuing... not letting go.
I think Denver would be the first to say "don't repeat MY mistakes" and that's why I originally posted that piece from his thread.
HP, you must GAL a lot more. It's KEY and you are glossing over it.
That is about the only overall suggestion I can give you b/c you are going in circles too much. You grow a few steps, then backslide a few more and then come back and go around, etc. We all did.
But gee whiz, don't be like we were then, learn from how we were then!
This is the start of my 4th week of separation. My W is angry with/feels pity for me and is in love with a stranger. My son is depressed and misses his family. I am messing up simply responding to my W's texts.
I have to do better and I'm not feeling like better me and I'm not even getting being dim/dark right.
I'm not even sure I know what it means to "do the work on me." To learn who "I" am so I can naturally be better me. To do nothing about my M and just have faith.
Doing nothing in terms of obsessing and reaching out to your wife is NOT "doing nothing".
That's like telling a wife beater that his Not beating her tonight is "doing nothing" to help his m.
GAL, HP...for real. The rest of this DB stuff, is 5309567 times easier when you detach.
NO one can detach if they are not GAL. You MUST GAL to Detach.
Hp, take this^^^ sentence in. I can't say it another way. You must believe it, implement it AND make a different choice.
I'm having a very low moment. I know it will pass.
I just want to call her. What are we doing?
"what" indeed....well, Here^^, you are metaphorically beating your head against a big dark wooden door again.
And you are letting your son overhear the banging.
When HE believes you are happier, HE will begin to be the same. He's reflecting you, and you are reflecting him.
Change the dynamic. That means, by definition, changing yourself. Today.
The simplest way (not an "easy" way but not complicated either) to change yourself and your life,
is to GAL. What are you waiting for? It'll never be "convenient", so stop waiting for some condition or event to begin living your life well. Live it now.
Carpe Diem" and "Tomorrow is promised to no one" & "life is short", etc.
Not sure how else to make it clear that GAL is important to all of us but mostly to people like you.
You're a brooder by nature I think (at least lately you are)
You must stop that brooding. It's not healthy and it's a terrible example to give your son.
GAL is how you will take that first step...we hammer the "GAL!!" for one simple reason.
It works.
Hi HP,
Shake it off. Breath deep and start all over. It is exactly what happen to all of us here.
The pain goes deep in the bone, don't mistake that people give you advice and they are doing super well. It's not true. We all made mistakes in our M/R, we all hit the floor when the one we love told us they can't no longer be beside us.
I got drunk the day my H told me he wants a D. And then after a while I got drunk again, very, very drunk. I walked with not direction and even got lost in some neighborhood I did not know.
Some days the pain was so much I needed to throw up because I cried so much. I lost 30lbs super fast. I felt like I was going to die sometimes.
We are all human beings and what is happening to you is just what happen to all of us at some point, at some level.
Now comes the difference. We all start somewhere feeling miserable, like garbage, no value, no direction, a incredible turmoil of emotions and a complete degradation of a person. But what we do with all what we feel is what gives the direction of who we want to be. We have been telling you all the time, that you need to use everything that is happening to you to reflect what happen, where did you fail, how did you fail, what was good, what did you do good.
Do the way it pleases you, a list perhaps, list all the good you like about yourself, all the bad you want to change.
List you past, the main things that jump to your memory. List your present, what is going on and how you can measure how much is good and how much is bad. List your future, what you want to happen in your life. Try to see it yourself. Some things you will say if W and I get back together life can be X and if not then life can be Y or Z.
Accept that this is a b**ch pain, that consumes you, makes you mad, a psycho. Accept that this is probably the worse pain you ever felt and maybe will ever feel.
Start accepting what is happening and find solutions, and accept that this are solutions for trying something that may never work again.
If you keep the self pit and don't allow yourself to go down with the pain, you will never stand up again.
Do you have a close friend that you can talk and cry. Do you have a place that you can take two or three days on a vacation with your son and far from your W.
You need to help yourself and stop being sorry for yourself. Your son is down, find something to do, go for bowling, play a game. You two watching TV is just boiling the toughs of what happen during the day. TV is not a very good friend during these times. You watch the screen but your brain does not stop thinking.
I don't hear you saying you go out with your kid. A museum, an aquarium, a local theater with real people, a comedy show, a music show. Get moving, get going.
Life is not only your wife, she is not the center of the world . She is very important but there are other things that you can do alone and with your son that brings happiness as well.
You say you love your kid, why you don't live for him right now. Get yourself out of the picture and start living for him.
Do different things, go to a hotel just for one night, just for a heck of sleeping somewhere different. Bring bathing suits and enjoy the pool, play shark with him.
Start living HP, you won't regret. Your wife will see, feel, and wonder if she really wants to get out.
Loose it, let go for now.
I am not saying a bunch of b***, I am doing it. Yes, it hurts and what... I am not that weak, I will go through it even with tears in my eyes. I will be happy because I deserve it and my kids deserve even more.
Pink
HP
I have been reading your posts and you are getting A LOT of advice and options from everyone including your IC and Coach and this board.
And which ever post comes up it tends to sway you to that direction.
There is no exact formula that you can follow this day or that day that will fix it.
You have to fix you. (Pink is right ^^)
It might be best to follow Chuck's advice or your IC and if you need them to help prescribe you a plan then let him. You might need more exact directions from him
Thank you sofaraway, 25, happy, and Pink.
Yes that moment was about me again. Brooding is not good. Understood.
I did have a good time with S12 and he did go to bed happy and he said he's thankful for this condo and his friends and his school when we said our gratitude prayer. We also prayed for his mom as usual. Made sure he called his mom and said good night.
I'm breathing... remembering my meditation practice and letting go of expectations.
I'm encouraged by the how I've been able to control my emotions interacting with W over the past 3 days. Tomorrow I'll focus on keeping high PMA with her texts and calls. Confident, calm, content. Prompt answers on s12 texts. And I'll get that financial email to her up here for review.
Goals for this week are to keep high PMA for me and s12, get some exercise, start meditating again, cook a real meal, and get a Crossfit GAL in.
I have a list of things to change Pink from talks with my W. I'll review it thank you. And yes I can get warmer and more patient with W interactions and no expectations.
Vanilla I'm debating being warmer with W now. I could ask her how her work is going. Not sure if this is the time but I believe I can do it warmly over the phone. She loves to talk. Certainly over text. I'll keep up the politeness of course.
Oh and yes Happy... on the advice. I am very thankful for all of it and yes I get analysis paralysis. Right now it seems staying dim and polite for the rest of the month works for me to keep my emotions in check and get detached. I'll look for chances to be warm.
Sleep now. I can do it. I'll be alright.
Onward.
HP,
Hopefully this helps you, it took me a while to get to this point and I'm still grasping it. I was in the same place as you for the last few months.
Easier said then done, but don't be so hard on yourself. No one said this was easy or not painful.
As sandi said, which helped me (took 5 months to realize it) my W has left the marriage. In her mind it was done when she walked out the door........not thinking about it, or debating it, or considering it, it's done. She does not want to be with me. That's a huge pressure off me. Know why? Because I can only hope for better things right now. How can it get worse? She divorces me? Whether I DB perfectly or not, it will not affect the outcome at all. I need to have faith that I'm doing my best and whatever the end of the story is, was how it's meant to be. That's why they call it LRT, it's the Hail Mary for our R.
Why is it called a Hail Mary? The games done, the score is almost in the books. We heave the ball (ours is over months/years) to the best of our ability in the general direction of the end zone and then it's up to faith that the outcome is going to be what it was meant to be.
It's her decision to leave and her decision if she would want to R. The ONLY thing I can do right now is put my best foot forward FOR ME and realize that I did as much as I could to try and make it work, but it's her decision.
HP
I'm going to share with you some of the DB coach's advice that I found VERY HARD to do, but which did help.
I was a little upset that it worked b/c it felt "wrong" or doormatish for me at the time. But even then, even in my misery, a part of me knew it made sense.
Anyhow, she said to "LISTEN LIKE A LOVER" to my h when he spoke.
(Not if he was vilifying me or referring to an OW), but when he would talk about his work or career or our family, she said for me NOT to react, but to support..."like a lover"...
At times that felt like Mother Teresa work to me....OMG so very hard. I'd want to shake him and yell "Snap out of it!"
She also said to "lose the anger, at least in front of him" b/c as we all know by now, it pushes them away
and does nothing for us internally either.
(Those who say "venting helps me," are not lying, per se. But it only helps if you feel better and calmer later on.
Usually I see people venting here, who stay stuck in their anger and become "victims" in their own eyes.
In other words, don't vent unless it actually serves you well. Seems obvious, but it's not).
You have heard that you must *Become a man only a fool would leave.*
But what does that^^ look like, to you?
Be as specific as you can, in describing that *man*, so you know what you are aiming for.
Having a PMA is essential.
I won't belabor that point, b/c the only time some folks think that a PMA hurts them, is when they misunderstand what helps and what harms their cause.
The ones who think they must show their pain are in error. Showing your pain does Not convince your w of your love; it just makes you harder to be around.
Guilting a WAS also fails b/c it converts their "guilt" into anger and resentment. And that is only IF you even get somewhere with the guilt. Every woman I know who had an affair, felt justified in doing so. They felt that an affair was a reaction to a marriage missing an essential ingredient; they felt pushed into OM's arms.
(Ouch, I know), HP,
I'm not blaming you, I'm referring to how your wife might feel.
I suggest watching those 2 TED Talk videos, Amy Cuddy's and Shawn Achor's.
They both discuss the empirical data that supports how vital a good PMA is. How it helps us live better lives and how having a PMA also changes us, internally.
As Amy Cuddy says, "it's not 'fake it til you make it', it's fake it til you Become it."
Make sense?
((( )))
HP,
From my day 25 is one of the lucky one's that worked hard and made these effective changes that restored her marriage. She knows from experience the value in these behaviors because she has experienced the results of the work. As difficult as it was for her, she consciously made the decision to listen to those who spoke to her and to make changes that would lead her to what she wanted.
I can remember reading posts in which she was ready to lay a pipe across his head and then she would get feedback and head back in the right direction. The point is you have a very strong person giving you advice here so take advantage and learn from her.
Also, I can promise you that we are not telling you to watch these videos and movies just to kill time for you. There is information and guidance in them that will help ease all of this pain and give you some direction that will ease some of the stress that you are feeling.
Ian
Lovely advice HP.
The best I can manage is warmth, not red hot, just general ordinary interest in my H and his hobbies or health. Normalising over and over.
To put warmth into your voice on the phone you can smile and stand when you are talking to W , look upwards and to the right and hold your unused hand rested at your side. Think yellow. Aim for 25% of the conversation. Separate functional admin from the emotional. No alcohol, food or gum.
On texts use warm fiuzzy words, no negatives, express things as positive and active. open questions. Reflect back, finish first but be civil.
ask for small easily done favours, then say thank you.
In person they say look into the eyes, I find that too personal so I look at a spot between the eyes, think of something you really like, a sitcom and smile, makes the smile genuine. Reflect back and mild mirroring of posture, lean forward. No arm folding in front or behind. If anxious hold a small object in your hand.
These were techniques I was taught on a negotiating skills course which I now use. Felt unnatural at first but now it's easier. I practised at work to get it right and in low risk situations where mistakes mattered less.
There are probably newer and better resources available but the above is from my course notes. But basically it is acting as if.
Vanilla
HP the best revenge in life is to be happy. In the last two days I was told about two people I knew that had passed away. Both were younger than myself. I see people at work all the time get horrible diagnoses. Life is short. Your son only has one childhood.
An only child is very aware of the moods of their parents. They have no siblings to share life's ups and downs with so they focus on the grown ups in their lives. 25 is right. Your son is watching you and your moods.
This is not where any of us thought we would find ourselves in life. Life is not fair sometimes. The only thing you can do is work to GAL. The business and distraction will help you not obsess about your wife. That doesn't mean you are over the loss or not hoping for a different out come. It means life will go on with or without us and it's time to start living.
Get to know yourself. What do you like to do for fun? Try new things. Try to be grateful for one thing each day before going to sleep. Take your son out. Do things together. Create memories he will look back on fondly. You can do this HP.
How can do you fully detach emotionally? Sandi2?
That is why I personally feel there is much needed respite care for you. However, she is making it almost impossible with her constant texting and calls. She takes no heed to you telling her not to contact unless it is an emergency. So, that keeps you emotionally and physically drained. And also, b/c some of us have a different opinion about you responding back to her, I think it keeps you in an unstable frame of mind. You read one post that explains the pros of responding and then another of the cons, so it leaves you wishy-washy. Which isn't entirely your fault b/c you are still a newcomer and everyone's advice sounds right. I can certainly understand how that would mentally wear you out.
I have had experiences where I had to emotionally detach from marriage conflict, church conflict, family conflict, friendship conflict, co-worker conflict, etc. But I think nothing is as intense as dealing with a wayward spouse. And those who have gone through it and succeeded with emotionally detachment could probably give you first hand experience, since I was the WW in my stitch. All I can tell you about detaching from any emotional conflict with another person or group, is it's a state of mind that only you can control. It is a calmness, or peace with yourself, and a steadfastness of purpose to manage your emotions/behavior in spite of the stitch. And in order to do be able to accomplish that, you have to do the work on your mindset. For me, my strength comes from my spiritual belief. For others, they rely upon whatever their belief system may be, but IMHO, it seems that it would require some kind of instilled or new found knowledge/belief for application to your specific and personal situation. There are many sources of information out there, whether religious or not, designed to guide people through personal trials. What works for me may not be your cup of tea. That's like the Power of Positive Thinking, it is a great source...but for me, I had to have more than just trying to train my brain to think positive in everything. I do admire those who can, but I had to have more broken down and know the spiritual source was much stronger than depending on myself. But that's just me.
HP, you can reach that level of calmness that will allow you to deal with the irritations of your W. I still believe she is wanting to get her needs met through both you and OM. She wants your friendship, conversational relationship, and family events. If you can settle for that without any expectations.......that is your decision to make. Some people, including MWD, believe in being friends with the WAS. However, she says in Divorce Remedy that if the S refuses to end their A, to get a lawyer and file. So the way I interpreted much of her advice was not applicable when the wayward spouse simply refused to end their A. But it is the personal decision of the individual as the length of time they endure the infidelity.
I think whatever you decide to do about the contacting--or NC, you need to be consistent. When you respond part of the time then get angry and refuse to answer, that's not good. It is not giving her a clear picture of you. She will not give up her manipulative tactics. Everyone has to decide "what works" for them in their stitch. You've tried a little of this and that, but no consistency. I can see what a challenge it would be with your W!!
You are so tormented my friend, and I think I can speak for everyone when I say we just want to see you have peace. IMO, there are two things that should be your priority, the physical & mental health of S12, and your own peace of mind. Try your best to get your focus off of W's thoughts and actions, and focus on those two priorities.
I hope today will be the beginning of your peace of mind.
HP,
These words from Sandy are a great advice and a great psychological support. Follow you heart.
Your road have been rocky but you can do it, you are very persistent, very capable and have a good spirit. You are a great person with great values. You will be OK.
I also pray and hope that you have a more peaceful day today and that it will be a start of many days of joy ahead of you.
Hugs,
Pink
Thank you MCS, 25, Sandi, Pink, Karma, and sofaraway.
I did watch the TED videos 25 and they are helpful. I will find the movie you recommend sofaraway and watch it. Maybe my boy will watch it too.
Yesterday I decided I wouldn't post or visit the forums and... like you said Karma... really just focus on happiness for myself for a day so I could then do it the next. As you said Sandi... a respite. I planned to make it until the weekend.
I picked up a pretty inspirational book my dad got for me. A very new agey story but interesting and about making your own happiness and energy. I got lost in it and doing so did lighten my load.
Last night I also sat at the table for dinner with my son and we talked a lot. He was sad and stressed again. I kept PMA and he brightened and we had a nice time. I want to thank you all for stressing I must step away from W and be happy.
Since W has started to communicate less, I decided to be good and authentic with her contacts like sofaraway said... just answer S12 related texts and calls normally.
Overall, be upbeat... find things to occupy my mind... show S12 a happy dad... keep moving without W.
So I did not hear from W all day yesterday. In the evening... I had S12 call his mom to say goodnight. She then texted me to ask if she could take him to school in the morning. I immediately answered "Hello W. Sure." She thanked me in her reply.
This morning, I reminded S12 to be nice and respectful to his mom as he left. No problem.
Later, I get a call from W. I answered. Looking back on it, I sounded just even... no so upbeat. She sounded tired.
She mentioned that I'm taking s12 to basketball practice tonight. She said she could show up and asked if she and I could go somewhere and talk during practice. I asked what about. She said about money, S12, and stuff in general. I said I'd prefer to watch the practice. Repeated she could send me an email with what she wanted to talk about and I'd get back to her. She started to say something else. I told her I was busy and was there anything else. She said no. I said OK talk to you later and I hung up.
So right I'm unfocused.
My goal is to get to R. My happy and peaceful goal today is to work on my life and detach from her and not hear from her much less sit and speak to her whenever she wants.
I see how listening like a lover through friendship, conversational relationship, and family events is the bridge between those 2 places. If I feel empathetic... I can get there.
Feeling more and more like a WAH everyday, though.
That, and my OW from 5 years ago called me again yesterday. We talked for a long while about the issues in her life and mine. It felt wonderful to share like that again.
I know I'm re-learning now to live on my own... find and grow my own happiness. Right now, my W doesn't add to my happiness at all.
We'll see if she shows up tonight.
Other than that... back to my day.
Thank you all again. I'll get back to do the work you tasked me with Wonka and others first chance I get.
That, and my OW from 5 years ago called me again yesterday. We talked for a long while about the issues in her life and mine. It felt wonderful to share like that again.
Those two statements are diametrically opposed.
Hi HP,
I read it and I can't believe it. Who is this HP that is seating and cheering up his S12. Who is this guy that is coming out of a shell an showing he is a strong person who can handle all this nightmare, be strong for his S, work, clean, cook, go o with his day, do his GAL, post answers on his tread here, have goals to become a better person... Wow, you are doing it HP.
And you alone are deciding your own happiness, it's wonderful you are getting to this place in your life. You stopped criticizing yourself. I don't know if you noticed that.
Your words are more positives, you are getting a hold on your own feelings. And I see you know it hurts, you know you would like to work things out with W. but you are cutting the umbilical cord, you are becoming more independent.
I AM SO PROUD OF YOU... I know how hard it is to wake up every day and put a smile face forward, but the more we do it or fake it, the more we live it. It became us by definition.
Your wife has many issues unresolved with herself and this is not your concern or business right now. Unfortunately, she will need to find herself, her purpose, values, inner center. You will probably see a lot more struggles coming from her. But it is still not your problem, she needs to figure it out herself and in her own time.
Again, it's hard to see someone we love to go through it. But we also need to remember that part of all this was caused by out actions and interactions with our S, and now we need to give time for them to dissect the mess. You are doing you work on yourself, she needs to do the same. It will be her choice to change or not.
Now that you are in a better place, try to always remember the feeling. When you feel angry and frustrated... what happen inside you. And when you don't react so fast, be calm and in control of you emotions, what happen inside you?
When this happen, you can choose the outcome, now you are ready to make that choice.
Nice dad you have, giving you a book that can help you. So fantastic how things work, you are becoming even a nicer dad to your son, and then you have a nice dad yourself. Life is so beautiful isn't it?
I am glad you will see the movie... have some tissues around, you will need it. I cried most of the movie. It's wonderful and the message is very powerful.
In my sitch things go up and down all the time, my H too drives me insane. One day he says I love you, a few days later he is still sure about the D. So much to take all the time. But, I have been learning along side you. Through your tread, I applied many things 25, Sandy, Wonka and others wrote to you. Things are getting easier for me too.
About the other lady. I would just say that it would be better to think about. If you still want to work out your R with your W then why to risk. Your W could find out and it would spin out of control since it is the same person that were in your life before and you W knows about. Be careful with what you ask for and don't do something just at the heat of the moment.
You are a man of God, you believe and have faith, so be aware that when you start being closer to him, evil will show it's face and provoke you. Be aware that it doesn't want you to be happy and close to your God.
Babe steps HP. I can't stress more of how proud you are making all these ladies here. You are becoming a man only a fool will leave.
Be strong, be happy, if you fall... stand up again, if you fail... start all over.
Lots of Hugs for you and your kid.
Pink
Hello Drew. Yes I see your point. I stress my OW is in a good place in her M now she says and I am not trying to ruin anyone else's life. That and she's right now she really helps we with her WAW knowledge. We acknowledged what you mentioned and I'm not going to go there. Yes it still feels wonderful to hear from her... all this goes away for a little while.
Like Sandi says I'm looking for that place where I'm actually finally really DBing while finding some peace.
I know what the life I want is without W or anyone else. I can even see how I look and act and dress and GAL. I can see where me and S12 live. I can see how W or a new beautiful woman would like my life.
It's just interacting with W in the meantime. W and I have serious financial and child concerns for years to come. I see her tension whenever I see her and her need to recover with S12. Even so, my values are that I can't be W's buddy while she's in an A and disappointing our son. I'm understand being nice and seeing her as a co-worker is not giving her anything. Listening as a lover is not being a doormat.
It's hard though the way she's been acting. The screaming and lying and acting like nothing is wrong and the asking for breaks.
She just sent me an email talking again about since I make more and live cheaper that I should pay more tuition b/c she needs to buy a car and get a place to live. Her funds are limited she says (after spending $250 on sneakers for S12 and going to a concert and a hotel stay in the mountains with S12). Again she asks to talk.
She keeps pushing... like the crying about Christmas and the condo before. I don't want to keep trying to read her. Like Sandi says... I just want one standard way of operating with her that works towards any possible R until I'm detached or she is warmer.
So I'm answering texts sooner as now she has shut down emotional texting.
I'm answering the phone if she has S12.
I'm not agreeing to meet with her to talk.
I'm answering her emails when I can.
No R talks.
No family time.
I think that's it. The warmth I'll still see about. Even if she doesn't deserve it I know it benefits all of us for me to do it. I'm working on it... really hard.
So I did not hear from W all day yesterday. In the evening... I had S12 call his mom to say goodnight. She then texted me to ask if she could take him to school in the morning. I immediately answered "Hello W. Sure." She thanked me in her reply.
This morning, I reminded S12 to be nice and respectful to his mom as he left. No problem.
Later, I get a call from W. I answered. Looking back on it, I sounded just even... no so upbeat. She sounded tired.
She mentioned that I'm taking s12 to basketball practice tonight. She said she could show up and asked if she and I could go somewhere and talk during practice. I asked what about. She said about money, S12, and stuff in general. I said I'd prefer to watch the practice. Repeated she could send me an email with what she wanted to talk about and I'd get back to her. She started to say something else. I told her I was busy and was there anything else. She said no. I said OK talk to you later and I hung up.
PERFECT -- great job!!!
Starsky
That, and my OW from 5 years ago called me again yesterday. We talked for a long while about the issues in her life and mine. It felt wonderful to share like that again.
Please be careful, HP. So many A's begin by talking about "the issues" in one's life. It would be very easy to turn to OW emotionally. That is not what needs to happen.
I appreciate your honesty about her.
Her funds are limited she says (after spending $250 on sneakers for S12 and going to a concert and a hotel stay in the mountains with S12).
Did she actually admit that, or are those your words about the shoes?
Too funny!
Hi HP,
I read it and I can't believe it. Who is this HP that is seating and cheering up his S12. Who is this guy that is coming out of a shell an showing he is a strong person who can handle all this nightmare, be strong for his S, work, clean, cook, go o with his day, do his GAL, post answers on his tread here, have goals to become a better person... Wow, you are doing it HP.
And you alone are deciding your own happiness, it's wonderful you are getting to this place in your life. You stopped criticizing yourself. I don't know if you noticed that.
Your words are more positives, you are getting a hold on your own feelings. And I see you know it hurts, you know you would like to work things out with W. but you are cutting the umbilical cord, you are becoming more independent.
I AM SO PROUD OF YOU... I know how hard it is to wake up every day and put a smile face forward, but the more we do it or fake it, the more we live it. It became us by definition.
Your wife has many issues unresolved with herself and this is not your concern or business right now. Unfortunately, she will need to find herself, her purpose, values, inner center. You will probably see a lot more struggles coming from her. But it is still not your problem, she needs to figure it out herself and in her own time.
Again, it's hard to see someone we love to go through it. But we also need to remember that part of all this was caused by out actions and interactions with our S, and now we need to give time for them to dissect the mess. You are doing you work on yourself, she needs to do the same. It will be her choice to change or not.
Now that you are in a better place, try to always remember the feeling. When you feel angry and frustrated... what happen inside you. And when you don't react so fast, be calm and in control of you emotions, what happen inside you?
When this happen, you can choose the outcome, now you are ready to make that choice.
Nice dad you have, giving you a book that can help you. So fantastic how things work, you are becoming even a nicer dad to your son, and then you have a nice dad yourself. Life is so beautiful isn't it?
I am glad you will see the movie... have some tissues around, you will need it. I cried most of the movie. It's wonderful and the message is very powerful.
In my sitch things go up and down all the time, my H too drives me insane. One day he says I love you, a few days later he is still sure about the D. So much to take all the time. But, I have been learning along side you. Through your tread, I applied many things 25, Sandy, Wonka and others wrote to you. Things are getting easier for me too.
About the other lady. I would just say that it would be better to think about. If you still want to work out your R with your W then why to risk. Your W could find out and it would spin out of control since it is the same person that were in your life before and you W knows about. Be careful with what you ask for and don't do something just at the heat of the moment.
You are a man of God, you believe and have faith, so be aware that when you start being closer to him, evil will show it's face and provoke you. Be aware that it doesn't want you to be happy and close to your God.
Babe steps HP. I can't stress more of how proud you are making all these ladies here. You are becoming a man only a fool will leave.
Be strong, be happy, if you fall... stand up again, if you fail... start all over.
Lots of Hugs for you and your kid.
Pink
Hello Pink. Thank you so much for your words of support. I would take you to dinner if I could. It's nice that good things are coming out of this like renewed relationships with my dad, son, and yes my OW... one of my oldest friends in reality. I am determined to grow through this no matter what happens.
Your words are very powerful and mean a lot to me when you say you're proud of me. I will keep growing and do my best to become truly happy and to honor my M. Your H needs to wake up soon.
And... did you say your from Brazil? One of my life dreams is to have a little apartment by the beach in Recreio or Salvador... go parasailing everyday.... Caipirinhas every evening. I've never been to Brazil but I will go soon.
Hey Jan! Good and not so good to see you back. Your W is back in the house then? I think it will get better for you. Try to stay relaxed and find a way to be happy. Best to you.
Her funds are limited she says (after spending $250 on sneakers for S12 and going to a concert and a hotel stay in the mountains with S12).
Did she actually admit that, or are those your words about the shoes?
Too funny!
Ha yes funny Sandi! She left the receipt in the bag when she dropped them off. She does like to spend money, and I don't at all want to appear controlling about paying her part of bills, so we'll see how we do.
So I did not hear from W all day yesterday. In the evening... I had S12 call his mom to say goodnight. She then texted me to ask if she could take him to school in the morning. I immediately answered "Hello W. Sure." She thanked me in her reply.
This morning, I reminded S12 to be nice and respectful to his mom as he left. No problem.
Later, I get a call from W. I answered. Looking back on it, I sounded just even... no so upbeat. She sounded tired.
She mentioned that I'm taking s12 to basketball practice tonight. She said she could show up and asked if she and I could go somewhere and talk during practice. I asked what about. She said about money, S12, and stuff in general. I said I'd prefer to watch the practice. Repeated she could send me an email with what she wanted to talk about and I'd get back to her. She started to say something else. I told her I was busy and was there anything else. She said no. I said OK talk to you later and I hung up.
PERFECT -- great job!!!
Starsky
Thank you so much Starsky. I'll stay on this track then... showing respect for myself and my "while in A then I'm not your buddy" boundary while still being responsive, polite, and non-punitive/childish.
She did sound irritated by the end of the call. Again like she expects me to speak with her. She did say it meant a lot to her the last time I listened to her talk.
Looks like I'll be responding to her like this for months then?
Or will she give up trying to get me to talk and be friends?
HP,
You are on the right path! You will have little backslides so don't beat yourself up if you do. Find things that nurture your soul. I listen to relaxation music, light scented candles and make sure my home is a reflexion on me. If your home is clutter so is your mind. Lol.
Watch funny movies....go out and enjoy a meal that you love. Go for a walk and breathe in some fresh air. Find the things that make you feel better and keep doing them. Reading is great!
Keep it up HP
no- W is not back in the house. In fact she hates me and wants nothing to do with me at all. She's told me she's in love with the OW and wants to be with her but for us to remain friends and continue being a happy family.
She has it all worked out that the AP will live with her family and care for her kids, and my WAW will care for our kids, one big happy family. They will continue to see each other monthly and everything will be hunky dory.
I can't see that happening as I don't want to be her friend. I will be civil and polite and do my best to interact with her in a limited but business like manner.
I filed for legal separation and am working that out. It's not divorce yet, but the next best thing.
I'm sad of course, but I had no other choice as she has so blatantly disrespected me and our family. Her lies and spew are just too much.
My goals are to work on
listening better
living more in the moment and not focus so much on the future
lighten up more and try to have more fun
Also - I am very happy for you and that you are doing well. Keep up the good work my friend!
JAN
Hi HP,
Yes, I was born and raised in Brasil. Came to USA on 12/2006. I am an american citizen for many years though, but still keep my brazilian citizenship as well.
I am from the south, Rio Grande do Sul, it's a state border with Argentina. We are the ones with 4 seasons, believe it or not there is harsh winter in Brasil.
Yes, Rio de Janeiro and Salvador are paradise. It's a gorgeous place, very violent too, but if you know your surroundings then it's fine.
Caipirinha is all day long stuff. At the beach you can drink from morning till night. There is a lot of freedom in Brasil, you can buy green corn (milho verde) or melted cheese, or many other kind of food right seating by the beach, drink your caipirinha or a cold beer and just relax.
Or if you are athletic, you can play some beach volleyball or try some soccer (football). Not much clothes on, yeah, it's hot and we do not wear much on.
When I was young, I used to go camping at the beach with some friends, did some surfing, just for the fun. We don't have the huge waves anyway. Sometimes it gets hard if there is a storm, but it is not some Hawaii.
I also dance Samba, one of my GAL other day was to go to a Hotel in Boulder where there is a brazilian band that plays there once in a while. Oh, my Lord, I danced on my high heels and it was so much fun. I did not want to be with any guy, just want to dance and get sweat. Loved it.
I wish you visit there one day. It's insane, people everywhere doing whatever they want. There are many street parties, beach parties, well, there are always a party somewhere for no reason. We drink a lot too. You will see, it's craaaaazy!
Last time I have been in Brasil visiting my family was back in july 2013. It's quite expensive and I can't really afford the tickets every year (w/my three kids).
My family wants me to go back, and now they bother me even more. I think about sometimes when I see all what my friends are doing and I am here trying a M with someone that does not want me anymore. We will see where God takes me next.
Hope you are still doing good. And if you want to have some fun, go to GGrass's thread, or RD. I feel so good reading those posts, have a look at it for some laughs. It is good for your spirit.
About dinner, I am OK with that. Now if you decide to get mad and angry and have a chick fit on me, you can be sure you get the dinner on your head. Yes, I am some Star Wars character, I have the dark side in me, I think Yoda told me that. Think about, would you still have dinner with me knowing that the plate could end up on your head?
Have fun my friend, you deserve it.
Hugs,
Pink
Hi HP - glad you're doing ok. I just wanted to add my note of caution to the contact with your previous OW. Handle with care on that one! Particularly if she was the OW you had an A with (if I've understood right). That's going to be like lighting the blue touch paper and standing back.
It's really really tempting to seek solace from an attractive member of the opposite sex. It can make us feel much better and save us from a pile of hard work and introspection. BUT - if you really hope to save your M, I worry for you that this would take you further and further away from that. Is that what you really want?
Just my 0.2 for you...
Hello Drew. Yes I see your point. I stress my OW is in a good place in her M now she says and I am not trying to ruin anyone else's life. That and she's right now she really helps we with her WAW knowledge. We acknowledged what you mentioned and I'm not going to go there.
She's "in a good place", but is talking about relationships to a man who is not her husband, who just happens to be her former affair partner? Red flags! Start paying attention.
-PM
HP, you can reach that level of calmness that will allow you to deal with the irritations of your W. I still believe she is wanting to get her needs met through both you and OM. She wants your friendship, conversational relationship, and family events. If you can settle for that without any expectations.......that is your decision to make. Some people, including MWD, believe in being friends with the WAS. However, she says in Divorce Remedy that if the S refuses to end their A, to get a lawyer and file. So the way I interpreted much of her advice was not applicable when the wayward spouse simply refused to end their A. But it is the personal decision of the individual as the length of time they endure the infidelity.
I think whatever you decide to do about the contacting--or NC, you need to be consistent. When you respond part of the time then get angry and refuse to answer, that's not good. It is not giving her a clear picture of you. She will not give up her manipulative tactics. Everyone has to decide "what works" for them in their stitch. You've tried a little of this and that, but no consistency. I can see what a challenge it would be with your W!!
You are so tormented my friend, and I think I can speak for everyone when I say we just want to see you have peace. IMO, there are two things that should be your priority, the physical & mental health of S12, and your own peace of mind. Try your best to get your focus off of W's thoughts and actions, and focus on those two priorities.
Hello Sandi. Thank you so much for this post. You are right that I have not at all been consistent. In the last 24 hours I've gone from extreme NC all the way to "listening like a lover." Time for me to choose...
Last night S12 had basketball practice. W did not show up to talk as I said I would not.
After practice, I told S12 that he would spend tomorrow night with W as scheduled. He did not like that and wanted to talk to his mom. He called. She did not answer.
The entire drive home he tried to call but no answer. This was stressing him out. I talked to him to calm him. Said she was probably at work. Told him to leave a message and send a text which he did. Even so, by the time we got to the condo he was upset. I was irritated too.
Even so, he got in the shower and was soon happy and singing. I texted W... "S12 has been trying to reach you."
It had been 40 minutes since S12's first call when W called him. He was still in shower so I texted W... "He's in the shower."
We traded texts. I said S12 got upset she didn't answer. She said sorry she was in the shower.
When S12 got out of the shower, he call W. He started to talk angrily and disrespectfully and I corrected him. Even so, he showed his mom he was upset and said "Why aren't you here? Just solve your problem and come live with us!" Along those lines. He also didn't want to stay with her the next night.
W asked to talk with me. She was upset. Saying she was looking at an apartment to help S12. That he didn't like to stay at aunt's house. Asked me again to take him most nights. She would drive him to school. She was very agitated.
I let my irritation show about her not answering. Told her I didn't want to here her excuses.
When she angrily said S12 only called her 2 times when he had been trying for 30 minutes... I got angry.
It turned into a very angry R talk.
Nothing new except W talking about how angry and miserable she is and she's an adulterer now. There were things she's forgot she said and history rewritten. Me backsliding badly by talking logic to her and finally saying I'm letting her go.
In the end we were calmer. I end saying "I'm done talking" and hung up.
After I go to bed, she starts texting me about her schedule changes like we did not just have a terrible conversation. I text back I'm asleep and leave the calendar as it is. She apologizes.
This morning, she calls and leaves a VM talking about me paying all of S12's tuition again.
Then she says how happy she feels that we talked last night. That she's sorry that it got heated. That she would like to talk more. That, if I could find it in my heart, to please call her.
That call... her crying about how she fell into her A and didn't mean it to happen but here we are and she knows she treaded me like sh!t and she's confident she won't ruin S12's life... was the second worst talk of my life... second only to our last R talk.
I texted her that I would pay my part of the tuition. Then I said... "As for calling you... I have decided to reduce all contact with you b/c I'm moving forward." I said I would continue to take her emergency calls and respond to her texts and emails. Then ... "I'm sure you understand. Thank you."
Went on with my day.
Later, she says ... "Thank you HP. Are you going to secure an attorney?"
I don't respond.
Later she calls. Leaves a VM saying she understands what I'm saying... but we should still sit talk about money and child support and school. She said we could go to MC for co-parenting. She asked me to call.
She immediately texted the same. "Our marriage may be over but we have to talk." That last night was awful. That we're good parents and let's please do our best during this transition for our son.
I reply that I got her VM and text. Thanks for sharing. I'll discuss these things via email or friend or family intermediary. That I will not accept direct contact with her. I wish her well.
She sends me an angry email that she wants to use a mediator. About how sad it is that it's come to this b/c I'm so mad.
So we're in a bad bad place. I don't feel it's the right place.
I'm remembering 25 and Chuck talking about "listening like a lover." I try to think of W. I know from her email that she is lashing out scared like her IC told her. Remember all the comments how she is trying to be a good mom. Remember all the 2x4's about being a good dad and being polite. Thinking I'm about to blink. Thinking I have nothing to lose.
So, when she's due to pick up S12 from his guitar practice, I call her.
I ask her how S12 is b/c he was stressed about practice today. She is at the music room door and says he looks happy. She starts to talk about him. I can hear she is fighting not to cry. I ask her to tell me what's wrong. She says nothing. She says she's not feeling great and starts to cry.
I listen. I ask her about her work day. She opens up and tells me all about it. She is crying a little. I listen and ask her questions about what she says. She keeps talking. Talks for 20 minutes about her work and plans for business. She tells me about her apartment hunt, and her plan to take S12 to NYC overnight this weekend. I ask her if she's OK for money. She says no. She keeps saying thank you for asking. She keeps crying a little.
She asks me about my work. I tell her about my project.
She thanks me for talking with her. How much she appreciates it. How shocked she is that I called..
She offers to pick up some groceries for us on the way to drop S12 off here. I tell her to get S12's breakfast food.
She says if I want anything else to text her. I say bye and hung up. A little later, I text her food that she would know is for me. She replies... "OK!"
S12 just called me. Says he and W are going to stop for burritos. Asks if W can get me one. I say sure.
So complete inconsistency. I don't know what works.
NC wasn't working b/c W still kept calling and I was looking like an avoider and it made room for our growing anger. This is what she expects me to do.
I just showed I can be friendly when we talk like we used to. When I show interest in S12 and her day. It fits what DB Coach Chuck and 25 tell me about empathy. My W wants acceptance and to be listened to. She knows what she did and is doing is horrible but she says she can't let go.
So I can kill her with kindness. This would be a major 180 for me to keep going this way. Somehow distant and friendly. Leave my ego someplace else and be humble about my part in all this. Sit with her at a table and have lunch. Risk feeling like a doormat.
W just texted me. Burrito place was closed. She asked if a burger is OK with me. I say sure... bacon, onions, bbq sauce, no cheese. She texts OK.
I don't know what I'm doing.
HP
You do know what you are doing.
sugar, sugar, sugar. listen, validate good stuff, ignore the vomit.
No R talk but warmth on everything else.
You are up to this, all your skills in play
Vanilla
Hi HP,
I think you hit the nail on the head here.
Do what works!
As someone said to you a few pages back, you are probably getting confused because you have so many great people giving you different advice and it all sounds smart, so what to do?
Do what works.
Re-read DB/DR. All of us giving you our experiences and advice is great and the vets know what they are talking about but we are here because of Michelle. What does she say?
So like you said, trying to be NC was not really working. It was not bringing you closer and it was not bringing YOU peace.
Like someone said being "dark" might bring you some much needed peace but I think it was costing you so much trying to enforce it with your crazy wife. And your son was also suffering.
Here would be my advice for now. Be warm and friendly in response to her overtures. Be polite. Listen when she talks but don't engage or argue. Validate and let it go. Respond to calls and texts in a friendly timely manner. Hopefully this will bring you some peace as she will maybe calm down and stop harassing you all the time with a million texts and calls. And then maybe you won't feel so angry and irritated and you can have some peace to work on yourself.
When that calm comes, don't use it as an opportunity to cling on to your WAW and start obsessing on her whereabouts. Use that calm peace and friendliness as an opportunity to GAL. If you don't have to spend so much time and energy avoiding her calls and being angry and fighting with her about not responding to her, and writing on here about your experiences (although I do always read your sitch).. you can use that time to GAL! You need to GAL! And keep focusing on your own happiness and fulfillment.
Be friendly with her, polite and brief. And then go out and do fun stuff with and without your son!
I feel like it is easier and works better than this constant fighting and stress you are under. I know you are not the one harassing her, but what you are doing is not working. Time for a new plan. Sounds like you are trying it already. See if it works and if so, keep on until it doesn't work any more. Try and assess.
Good luck HP!
Hugs, Lisa
Thank you Vanilla. Keeping the anger down between the 2 of us should keep the R talks down. Then I'll just not work on my M while I work on myself.
Nice to get free groceries and dinner (from my W who claims money problems). She bought me 2 boxes of my cereal like she always has. She allowed cheese in my burger, though. Might have to punish her for that (joking).
Nice thing about today... I'm finding I'm not too afraid of D. Honestly, I'm living it right now. I would like to save my R if possible... but I see I'm already dead. I'm framing the brutality of this sitch as the motivation for me to finally have a life I love.
So I'm thinking of doing the February Essential Experience Workshop.
Focusing on my life. Working to turn down the noise from W. Still not sure I'm on the R track but I know showed a better side of myself today. I showed empathy to my W for my family health. For my boy.
Onward.
So I'm thinking of doing the February Essential Experience Workshop.
Good for you. I have heard 25 yrs praise it highly.
I do hope you can find balance, HP. I agree that your anger is eating up most of your energy and the inconsistency keeps you frustrated.
I do have a suggestion, however. In these contacts with your W, you do not have to contend with her verbal disrespect. As soon as she starts raising her voice, or says something to cause your anger to rise, interrupt and say, "I am going to hang up now". It takes two to fight, so if you can be strong enough to listen to warning sirens blowing.......you can end it in it's tracks. Don't slam the phone down, but tell her you are ending the call and then put the receiver down. As much as she craves conversation with you, she will eventually learn she can scream and curse at you or you will end it.
I have noticed when she has a call from S12 that isn't to her liking, she immediately calls you and vents her anger or frustration. Usually, you are as upset as your son with her, so it doesn't end well. Perhaps you could address this with her (when the timing is good) and ask if she will agree not to call you immediately following an upsetting talk with her son. Present it as a better co-parenting skill, or a better communicating relationship between the two of you......or whatever, but it is clearly a bad habit she's forming that needs to stop. Even scheduling a set time once a week to discuss all her concerns with S12 would seem better, b/c it would give both of you time to settle down.
However, even as I write this, I really doubt she could stick to not texting of some alternative to calling.
Here would be my advice for now. Be warm and friendly in response to her overtures. Be polite. Listen when she talks but don't engage or argue. Validate and let it go. Respond to calls and texts in a friendly timely manner. Hopefully this will bring you some peace as she will maybe calm down and stop harassing you all the time with a million texts and calls. And then maybe you won't feel so angry and irritated and you can have some peace to work on yourself.
When that calm comes, don't use it as an opportunity to cling on to your WAW and start obsessing on her whereabouts. Use that calm peace and friendliness as an opportunity to GAL. If you don't have to spend so much time and energy avoiding her calls and being angry and fighting with her about not responding to her, and writing on here about your experiences (although I do always read your sitch).. you can use that time to GAL! You need to GAL! And keep focusing on your own happiness and fulfillment.
Thank you LisaB. I'm thinking your advice was the advice I've been getting all along. I've been resisting it b/c of ego. If I'm to do this then I'll have to check that. I'm still searching for that line between DBing and doormat.
I initiated the talk today b/c I know her and I knew my listening to her would reach her. That is what she says she's always wanted... to be heard... really SEEN and understood. I guess that's why she talks so much. Conversation is her love language.
At the same time, I can't be too available. So, like you said, I'll do a little more of the above when she initiates contact. Maybe that will keep things peaceful so I can really detach and feel calm and confident instead of trying to hide anger all the time.
She was crying last night about how I can't ignore her and not talk to her... especially around S12. Not that I can trust her crying anymore. I'm so wary of being manipulated now that these choices are hard.
So me being authentic is polite and calm and upbeat. That's the choice to make. If she's going to be manipulative... that's her problem then.
Tonight, I texted her to thank her for dinner. She replied... "My pleasure! :-)" Noting I still don't trust when she uses exclamation points.
We also texted just now about her picking up 12 in the morning for school. She asked if I would be at the basketball game tomorrow night. I immediately replied yes. She replied OK.
One week after the first disastrous game. We'll see what happens. Maybe I'll buy a new pair of pants for myself.
How about pants AND a shirt!! Go crazy, H
So I'm thinking of doing the February Essential Experience Workshop.
Good for you. I have heard 25 yrs praise it highly.
I do hope you can find balance, HP. I agree that your anger is eating up most of your energy and the inconsistency keeps you frustrated.
I do have a suggestion, however. In these contacts with your W, you do not have to contend with her verbal disrespect. As soon as she starts raising her voice, or says something to cause your anger to rise, interrupt and say, "I am going to hang up now". It takes two to fight, so if you can be strong enough to listen to warning sirens blowing.......you can end it in it's tracks. Don't slam the phone down, but tell her you are ending the call and then put the receiver down. As much as she craves conversation with you, she will eventually learn she can scream and curse at you or you will end it.
I have noticed when she has a call from S12 that isn't to her liking, she immediately calls you and vents her anger or frustration. Usually, you are as upset as your son with her, so it doesn't end well. Perhaps you could address this with her (when the timing is good) and ask if she will agree not to call you immediately following an upsetting talk with her son. Present it as a better co-parenting skill, or a better communicating relationship between the two of you......or whatever, but it is clearly a bad habit she's forming that needs to stop. Even scheduling a set time once a week to discuss all her concerns with S12 would seem better, b/c it would give both of you time to settle down.
However, even as I write this, I really doubt she could stick to not texting of some alternative to calling.
Hello Sandi. Yes it was the verbal disrespect that started me off last night. She started cursing me again. I hung up... but then I called her back and asked her where this angry cursing was coming from. In all our M she's never spoken like that to me. It's only been since my not letting her in the condo that she's started that. But yes that led to more yelling and then the terrible R talk. Backsliding.
I'm tired of this anger from both of us. My idea today to just completely shut down communication seemed to promise to make that worse. Immediately after I told her I'd only accept emergency calls, she called and texted me. All the ended in an angry email.
One friendly but not friends phone call changed the dynamic today.
So you said this in an earlier post...
HP, you can reach that level of calmness that will allow you to deal with the irritations of your W. I still believe she is wanting to get her needs met through both you and OM. She wants your friendship, conversational relationship, and family events. If you can settle for that without any expectations.......that is your decision to make. Some people, including MWD, believe in being friends with the WAS. However, she says in Divorce Remedy that if the S refuses to end their A, to get a lawyer and file. So the way I interpreted much of her advice was not applicable when the wayward spouse simply refused to end their A. But it is the personal decision of the individual as the length of time they endure the infidelity.
It's not like I have to endure anything as I've separated from her. It's up to her to file although she seems to think I'm going to.
I've told her I let her go... I'm moving forward. That sent her in a little panic today before I was friendly with her.
Like you said... she still places a high value on me treating her nicely and talking with her. I believe she would love to come over to the condo to see S12 and watch TV with us like she used to.
So, if I, like you say, settle for occasional friendship, conversational relationship, and family events without any expectations while just being friendly but not friends about it... does that help me grow and help my R goal? That seems to go with what DB Coach Chuck said. Slowly create more emotional connection as that is what she really wants.
My doing the hardline LRT/NC has been hard on all of us with my anger/irritation over her texting and changing schedules and her sadness/anger/cursing over her transition failure. I think I've had only 1 full day where I have not heard from her so that's fail.
And yes I like your idea about talking about S12 weekly. As I'm going with him to the IC sessions, maybe she and I can do a weekly call about progress. More growth for me then.
So then...
I'm calm, confident, and authentic. That means I care about my son's welfare and want him to have a good relationship with his mom and to be ok in this "transition" of hers. I'm accepting her transition so I'm partnering with W on IC and S12 discussions.
At the same time, I'm having a revelation that I'm enjoying my single life. I'm GALing... dressing better... looking attractive... moving forward. I have no problem talking with W when she needs to talk but I'm brief and purposeful b/c she's only a co-worker.
Every now and then, for S12, I say "We're doing X... care to join us?" I accept her and focus on the moment and let it go. No expectations.
Something like that.
No problem.
I conncur to be calm and ignore as much as possible the spew. Walk away if you can or just hang up the phone. My WAW kept goading me last night with her texts, we were settling up some bills an I just ignored all of the provocations.
Example -Get the picture? I don't care about you anymore
Example - I need to see receipts from now on about all bills
I took photos with my phone of the receipts and replied cheerily "Hope this helps".
It made me feel better to be in control and not respond to her bullsh*t.
So, if I, like you say, settle for occasional friendship, conversational relationship, and family events without any expectations while just being friendly but not friends about it... does that help me grow and help my R goal? That seems to go with what DB Coach Chuck said. Slowly create more emotional connection as that is what she really wants.
My doing the hardline LRT/NC has been hard on all of us with my anger/irritation over her texting and changing schedules and her sadness/anger/cursing over her transition failure. I think I've had only 1 full day where I have not heard from her so that's fail.
I have said it before but I agree that you taking the hardline approach definitely seems to not lead to a path of R, but continues to cause anger and irritation within yourself.
I actually asked myself this exact same question today. Does being friendly and conversational to W help grow and enable R by creating a more emotional connection? Because it does seem like W wants it. My DB Coach said the same thing. Be friendly and conversational. Be her friend for now. Though Sandi hit the nail on the head, how long are you willing to endure the infidelity and at what point are you giving her the best of both worlds?
The question I have for you HP is, can you really be friendly consistently? Or are you still in a place where you may have a blow up sometime because you are angry (understandably). Small, consistent actions will be noticed. If you don't think you are able to consistently be light and friendly, it may be worthwhile to wait a little bit until you are able to do that.
Though Sandi hit the nail on the head, how long are you willing to endure the infidelity and at what point are you giving her the best of both worlds?
I don't think he is 'enduring' the infidelity-- he has moved out and is not pursuing his WAW. I don't think that being friendly and polite (not "friends"-- and HP, I would recommend not asking so much about her job, etc.) is not giving her 'the best of both worlds'.
There does not seem to be a benefit to HP OR his son by continuing to respond angrily OR ignore her.
When I say "enduring the infidelity" I mean how long are you willing to put up with the fact that she is having an A, how long are you willing to wait. I don't mean accepting or condoning the A. It is clear that you are not.
I think there is a fine line between being polite and friendly, versus giving her the best of both worlds. She is already in an active A. She clearly wants increased and friendly contact. Yes, I agree there is no benefit to anyone by continuing to respond angrily or ignoring her. But too much friendliness may begin to satisfy her desires.
Im not sure if this is coming off clearly. Basically, at what point will her emotional needs be satisfied by you HP, and just be careful that you don't reach that point because then she will have no reason to change her actions
Thanks you Jan, TLEE, and claire. Woke up this morning shaking my head about this whole thing. I've imagined a life without my W many times in my M. She has been difficult to live with in the past... not supportive and easy to give up in the face of challenges. I know now that I should have been the one to reach for her and support our M instead of waiting for her to be friendly again. That was my pattern... waiting for her to change without me changing.
So she's done waiting for changes and is very angry. I can't keep putting mental energy into managing her outbursts. So yes friendly in our required interactions helps me and I'll do it. I agree TLEE about too much of that... but more for me b/c self-respect. I choose to stop caring about giving her reasons to change her actions.
Whatever is in her head... she curses me and yells at her son and says she doesn't feel she's ruining anyone's life. Then she cries when I ask her how S12 is doing. It's too much for me to be exposed to everyday. She doesn't seem to understand how dealing with her could be painful. It's going to take a long time for her anger and sadness around us to fade.
So I want to detach from her ASAP so her emotions slide off me for real. Not just keep her and her moods away with anger or boundaries. All this other stuff... managing her emotions, giving her reasons, etc... is games.
And I can detach. The ADs must be kicking it b/c I've felt pretty even the past couple days. I have not cried in days. Even after that last bad R talk... I did not feel crushed.
I'm starting to really look at my dead M and what she's been missing. I see I have a ways to go to be the man she would care to start a new R with. I have to really change... not play games.
And it starts with S12. He has to be fine through this. I have to do whatever I can to make W's plans work regarding him.
Just keep going.
IMHO, it is difficult for the LBH to distinguish being friends and just showing a polite, friendly manner. Especially when there has been no break or space in the relationship, he gets sucked into her personal life again. Plus, as I have said before, the WAW'S idea of the friendship and the LBH'S idea is usually quite opposite. He (the LBH) is thinking the friendship will eventually develop into more between them. And honestly I believe it can and does happen........once the couple can get past the hurt and anger with each other. But to jump immediately from being cheated on to being great friends? I believe they have two agendas in mind. It is very doubtful the WW, who is still in an active A, is thinking about getting back into an intimate relationship with her H. Her agenda is much different.
Don't get me wrong, I do believe in doing what works. HP couldn't control his anger and she wouldn't control her endless contact. I wished he could have had a long vacation from her, but.....oh well. So again, I suggest you proceed with caution, HP. Take this very slowly and do not get drawn back into her manipulation over confusion of the term "friendly". If you start questioning yourself about what kind of friend you are, etc., then you've slid too far the other direction.
You told her you were moving on, so act as though you are already D and you are being nice and friendly toward the mother of your son. Stay balanced and don't lean too far in either direction. Also be watchful that you do not start pursuing her, under the guise of being friendly. At least for a while, have the mindset that you are strictly co-parenting. Pretend you are co-parenting with your neighbor down the street. Don't get too personal, for now. The mistake I see many H's make is getting into the BFF trap b/c they try to get too close to her too quick.
Hello Sandi. Thank you for your help here and I agree. She wants more friendliness as she says for S12's sake but mostly b/c she can feel better by keeping her family despite her decisions. It doesn't help anything if I'm so angry that S12 is hurt so I have to keep our co-parenting relationship positive.
So yes again to what you've all been saying all along... just keep it friendly. I just saw her and was polite and brief. Just a good morning and a wave goodbye. I could have been more upbeat. It was just fine for now and I can keep doing it.
I can be friendly now while still pulling way way back. I realize my anger and the last R talks were very bad pursuing so I'm just going to keep up the no pressure politeness. That will make her more invisible in my life so I can really move on.
I also see that yesterday she interpreted my "I'm moving forward" text as I'm going to file D imminently. I see she's only scared that I'll do it without her input. I won't be the one to file... but yes I will act as if I already am D and just keep it moving.
My W again did not look attractive at all when I saw her this morning.
And then my OW from 5 years ago called on her morning walk. Took a picture of the ocean so I could see her view. She knows I love the water... we used to swim together. My W can't swim.
We talked for a while just about her and her busy life. About home prices where she lives. She made a little fun of her H. I found myself automatically validating her and really listening. Did not talk about my sitch at all. Second time she called me this week. It again was wonderful to hear from her. I see the problem. I'm being careful.
Tonight is S12s basketball game. I'll go and be polite to my W as if she's another mom there. I'll act as if I'm there by myself and enjoy the game.
Then I have the whole weekend to myself. I want to restart work on my side business. I think I will start working on my new "successful man" wardrobe. No more jeans and a sweatshirt for me.
On with my day then.
Good luck to all of us.
Onward.
First a question, have you watched the movie I suggested to you? Kind of a willingness check to me to see if you actually follow through with suggestions when you believe you would do anything to fix this situation. Particularly for your S12.
I'm going to hit you with some points now;
You need to learn the difference between spew and conversation. Sometimes your W spews at you and you engage it as conversation.
S12 is old enough to have conversations with his mother without you in earshot. Let them have their conversations privately and only get involved if S12 comes to you because he needs your help in it. It tends to come off as manipulative listening to and quoting your sons back and forth with his mom.
You do not have to give her road maps to your reactions and behaviors. She doesn't need to know you are going to limit your talking to her. She will figure that out.
You don't need a moderator, she does. Are you filing? Until it is you ending your marriage you don't need to do jack [censored] as far as moderating your marriage goes.
If she wants family therapy, let her set it up and you attend when she tells you where to be, that simple.
Lastly, this: "I have to do whatever I can to make W's plans work regarding him." ..... You need to change that statement to "I have to do whatever I can to take care of and protect S12" Don't make it a battle about your ex, make it about your S12's well being.
Once again, see that movie I suggested and learn a bit about how to be the best dad you can to your child.
HP, you have to remove yourself from the drama in order to become drama free. there is way to much interaction and way to much conversation occurring right now that is not in line with what you are trying to do. Release the chains a bit and step outside yourself to see where you are trying to manipulate the situation. It's there, and you are aware of it, you just are so flustered and your brain is moving so fast that you cannot focus on it and fix it. Slow the hamster wheel in your brain down long enough to see the real problems.
Ian
When I say "enduring the infidelity" I mean how long are you willing to put up with the fact that she is having an A, how long are you willing to wait. I don't mean accepting or condoning the A. It is clear that you are not.
I think there is a fine line between being polite and friendly, versus giving her the best of both worlds. She is already in an active A. She clearly wants increased and friendly contact. Yes, I agree there is no benefit to anyone by continuing to respond angrily or ignoring her. But too much friendliness may begin to satisfy her desires.
Im not sure if this is coming off clearly. Basically, at what point will her emotional needs be satisfied by you HP, and just be careful that you don't reach that point because then she will have no reason to change her actions
Hey TLEE. Thanks and yes I get you. I've been trying to look at this from W's perspective.
Yes she says she had an A and says she feel terrible that she did. That it damaged her. She wants to blame me b/c, as she says, I "left her vulnerable to it."
Now that I've left her and say I'm moving on (I need to stop backsliding on this with R talks)... she now wants to feel she's just having a R, not an A, and has no R with me.
Any R I have with her would be a new R. I just have to be in a position to start that if it's ever possible.
So I have to get out of her way... really open the cage... identify and stop any manipulating I'm doing... and get on with my life. Her life may or may not implode on it's own. I can't be the reason her life get worse.
So yes just be polite without, as you say, fully meeting her needs for now.
HP,
It occurs to me that, 3 months and THOUSANDS of posts in, 99% of your posts can still be boiled down to "How to I communicate with my wayward wife?"
I'm not saying it's easy, and I'm not saying it's not important -- it is, especially for S12's sake -- but somehow, you have GOT to start moving into other goals and actions.
I liken it to an athlete, who needs to commit certain basic moves to "muscle memory" so that he can play the game at a fast, high level without having to concentrate on the basic moves.
INTROSPECTION is a critical part of successful DBing, and of successful LIFE-living. You have to watch that it doesn't cross over into NAVEL-GAZING however, and the ol' "paralysis-by-analysis."
Not a criticism (as I know this is really difficult, especially with your wife's erratic behavior and game-playing) -- just an observation.
Starsky
First a question, have you watched the movie I suggested to you? Kind of a willingness check to me to see if you actually follow through with suggestions when you believe you would do anything to fix this situation. Particularly for your S12.
I'm going to hit you with some points now;
You need to learn the difference between spew and conversation. Sometimes your W spews at you and you engage it as conversation.
S12 is old enough to have conversations with his mother without you in earshot. Let them have their conversations privately and only get involved if S12 comes to you because he needs your help in it. It tends to come off as manipulative listening to and quoting your sons back and forth with his mom.
You do not have to give her road maps to your reactions and behaviors. She doesn't need to know you are going to limit your talking to her. She will figure that out.
You don't need a moderator, she does. Are you filing? Until it is you ending your marriage you don't need to do jack [censored] as far as moderating your marriage goes.
If she wants family therapy, let her set it up and you attend when she tells you where to be, that simple.
Lastly, this: "I have to do whatever I can to make W's plans work regarding him." ..... You need to change that statement to "I have to do whatever I can to take care of and protect S12" Don't make it a battle about your ex, make it about your S12's well being.
Once again, see that movie I suggested and learn a bit about how to be the best dad you can to your child.
HP, you have to remove yourself from the drama in order to become drama free. there is way to much interaction and way to much conversation occurring right now that is not in line with what you are trying to do. Release the chains a bit and step outside yourself to see where you are trying to manipulate the situation. It's there, and you are aware of it, you just are so flustered and your brain is moving so fast that you cannot focus on it and fix it. Slow the hamster wheel in your brain down long enough to see the real problems.
Ian
Hello Ian. Thank you for your guidance. I have Courageous rented and will watch it tonight.
Agree on all your points.
Yes I must stay out of S12's conversations with his mom. I do tell W about the struggles S12 has b/c I want her to see the impact of what she's doing. I see that is manipulation from me and pressure on him. He can get to the point where he can talk with his mom if he wants to on his own. It has to be about his well being, you're right of course.
No more telling her boundaries. No more engaging her spew. Just "I'm hanging up the phone now" and then do it.
Slowing down. OK.
Even though I say I'm moving on and want to... I am stuck on the wanting our R to renew. So I did get sucked into those 2 R talks were I was still trying to talk logic to her and tell her my side. She strangely (to me) seems happy to have these talks which wrongly opens me up to hope that we can talk this through. so I just keep talking without thinking which is very bad.
So you're right and I'm releasing the chains.
Wanting to reconcile with your W is reason enough to not speak with OW, but it appears that may be out for you (correct me if that is wrong). Here's another reason: stop chumming it up with your former affair partner because she is someone else's wife. It's entirely inappropriate.
-PM
Here's another reason: stop chumming it up with your former affair partner because she is someone else's wife. It's entirely inappropriate.
I have to agree with this, HP. You are emotionally vulnerable right now. It makes you feel a little
too good when she talks to you, plus she's calling more often. Just b/c she lives in another country does not prevent an A. You don't want to be on the same level as your W's OM.
Wanting to reconcile with your W is reason enough to not speak with OW, but it appears that may be out for you (correct me if that is wrong). Here's another reason: stop chumming it up with your former affair partner because she is someone else's wife. It's entirely inappropriate.
-PM
Here's another reason: stop chumming it up with your former affair partner because she is someone else's wife. It's entirely inappropriate.
I have to agree with this, HP. You are emotionally vulnerable right now. It makes you feel a little
too good when she talks to you, plus she's calling more often. Just b/c she lives in another country does not prevent an A. You don't want to be on the same level as your W's OM.
Understood and you are both right. I will stop chumming it up with her. Thank you.
Sometimes HP, I feel the difference between you and I is about 4-6 months.
Hey vasapro. You mean I'm 4-6 months ahead of you? If so, I hope all this helps you get through.
My W has another problem today. She called and I answered businesslike. She asks if she can drop S12 at the condo before his basketball game tonight.
This because her aunt's husband had a terrible irritable bowl syndrome accident last night. He unfortunately had to go to the hospital. He is OK... but there is a big mess all over the house. There is now a lot of stress and crisis in the house W says. She will go there to help clean up after she drops off S12.
I let her talk for a long while to describe everything. I validated and really listened. She cried a little about the situation and about S12 spending the night there tonight. S12 was also a little upset this morning about going all the way to the aunt's home and then back to the game.
On another note... she said she found an apartment and will move in a month. She will take S12 there later today to check it out.
Hmm... she just called again. Apologized for calling. She says now maybe S12 will spend the night with me if the issue at her aunt's isn't resolved. And she asks me to cut S12's hair for their trip to NYC tomorrow. We're talking on the phone like we used to. I'm not irritated... just even and businesslike. I'm doing it.
I am going to Crossfit tomorrow and will look for a dance class or maybe a cooking class. I'm reading information about really increasing my life motivation. I haven't had a drink in a few weeks now.
Happiness growing.
[quote=HPoirot]Thank you Vanilla. Keeping the anger down between the 2 of us should keep the R talks down. Then I'll just not work on my M while I work on myself.
Nice to get free groceries and dinner (from my W who claims money problems). She bought me 2 boxes of my cereal like she always has. She allowed cheese in my burger, though. Might have to punish her for that (joking).
hey, you can't be snarky and negative (or programmed that way)
when she's done a nice gesture. ^^
As they said at my alma mater, "That dog won't hunt"...Nice thing about today... I'm finding I'm not too afraid of D. Honestly, I'm living it right now. I would like to save my R if possible... but I see I'm already dead. I'm framing the brutality of this sitch as the motivation for me to finally have a life I love.
So I'm thinking of doing the February Essential Experience Workshop.
YES! YES! YES!.... 
not that I feel strongly about it or anything...
--
I think whatever you decide to do about the contacting--or NC, you need to be consistent. When you respond part of the time then get angry and refuse to answer, that's not good. It is not giving her a clear picture of you.
- Try your best to get your focus off of W's thoughts and actions, and focus on those two priorities.
YES^^^^Hello Sandi. Thank you so much for this post. You are right that I have not at all been consistent. In the last 24 hours I've gone from extreme NC all the way to "listening like a lover."
Time for me to choose...
Well, there are 2 separate pieces to this^^. ONE piece is what works for YOU, right now. Meaning, as long as you are as Undetached as you are, you have to have minimal contact (that's on you, btw)
And second, what works for THE R....ie what seems to bring you close to your goal?
So let's see if we can find any clues...
Last night S12 had basketball practice. W did not show up to talk as I said I would not.
After practice, I told S12 that he would spend tomorrow night with W as scheduled. He did not like that and wanted to talk to his mom. He called. She did not answer.
The entire drive home he tried to call but no answer. This was stressing him out. I talked to him to calm him.
Said she was probably at work. Told him to leave a message and send a text which he did. Even so, by the time we got to the condo he was upset. I was irritated too.
Why do you get so mad when HE can't reach her BUT you make it impossible, sometimes, for her to reach YOU? I mean, doesn't it go both ways?
Yes, it's her son but isn't she "allowed" to be busy or in a shower when he calls without notice? It's not ALL about an OM, or is it?Even so, he got in the shower and was soon happy and singing. I texted W... "S12 has been trying to reach you."
--
When S12 got out of the shower, he call W. He started to talk angrily and
disrespectfully and I corrected him.
good^^^and you do this, btw, NOT b/c you are a good husband but b/c you are a good FATHER. This advice is for your son, not your w. Do you see? Even so, he showed his mom he was upset and said "Why aren't you here? Just solve your problem and come live with us!"
W asked to talk with me. She was upset. Saying she was looking at an apartment to help S12. That he didn't like to stay at aunt's house. Asked me again to take him most nights. She would drive him to school. She was very agitated.
I let my irritation show about her not answering. Told her I didn't want to here her excuses.
When she angrily said S12 only called her 2 times when he had been trying for 30 minutes... I got angry.
It turned into a very angry R talk.
to ME, this^^ is an example of something NOT working.--
---
So we're in a bad bad place. I don't feel it's the right place.
I'm remembering 25 and Chuck talking about "listening like a lover." I try to think of W. I know from her email that she is lashing out scared like her IC told her. Remember all the comments how she is trying to be a good mom. Remember all the 2x4's about being a good dad and being polite. - I call her.
- She starts to talk about him. I can hear she is fighting not to cry. I ask her to tell me what's wrong. She says nothing. She says she's not feeling great and starts to cry.
I listen. I ask her about her work day. She opens up and tells me all about it.
I listen and ask her questions about what she says. She keeps talking. Talks for 20 minutes about her work and plans for business. --- She keeps saying thank you for asking. She keeps crying a little.
She asks me about my work. I tell her about my project.
She thanks me for talking with her. How much she appreciates it. How shocked she is that I called..
She offers to pick up some groceries for us on the way to drop S12 off here. I tell her to get S12's breakfast food.
She says if I want anything else to text her. I say bye and hung up. A little later, I text her food that she would know is for me. She replies... "OK!"
S12 just called me. Says he and W are going to stop for burritos. Asks if W can get me one. I say sure.
So complete inconsistency. I don't know what works.
Seriously? ?
You "don't know what works"??? TO ME -- THIS^^^ worked!
In large part b/c you were NOT attaching your expectations to it,
you were not so invested in her reaction; You were simply being YOU being compassionate. That is the beginning of healthy detachment.
AT least from where I sit.=
I just showed I can be friendly when we talk like we used to. When I show interest in S12 and her day. It fits what DB Coach Chuck and 25 tell me about empathy. My W wants acceptance and to be listened to. She knows what she did and is doing is horrible but she says she can't let go.
So I can kill her with kindness. This would be a major 180 for me to keep going this way. Somehow distant and friendly. Leave my ego someplace else and be humble about my part in all this. Sit with her at a table and have lunch. Risk feeling like a doormat.
How are you "risking feeling like a doormat"? Let me reword that. DON'T RISK IT.
You can be polite and show compassion without being a doormat. To think otherwise means you cannot be loving and detached. And That's not true.
Just read through this thread HP and wow! it's all action isn't it.
My coach is also Chuck. Speak to him about managing your anger when communicating with your WAW. He'll have some tips for you. This is a 180 you can work on for sure.
--
I think whatever you decide to do about the contacting--or NC, you need to be consistent. When you respond part of the time then get angry and refuse to answer, that's not good. It is not giving her a clear picture of you.
- Try your best to get your focus off of W's thoughts and actions, and focus on those two priorities.
YES^^^^Hello Sandi. Thank you so much for this post. You are right that I have not at all been consistent. In the last 24 hours I've gone from extreme NC all the way to "listening like a lover."
Time for me to choose...
Well, there are 2 separate pieces to this^^. ONE piece is what works for YOU, right now. Meaning, as long as you are as Undetached as you are, you have to have minimal contact (that's on you, btw)
And second, what works for THE R....ie what seems to bring you close to your goal?
So let's see if we can find any clues...
Last night S12 had basketball practice. W did not show up to talk as I said I would not.
After practice, I told S12 that he would spend tomorrow night with W as scheduled. He did not like that and wanted to talk to his mom. He called. She did not answer.
The entire drive home he tried to call but no answer. This was stressing him out. I talked to him to calm him.
Said she was probably at work. Told him to leave a message and send a text which he did. Even so, by the time we got to the condo he was upset. I was irritated too.
Why do you get so mad when HE can't reach her BUT you make it impossible, sometimes, for her to reach YOU? I mean, doesn't it go both ways?
Yes, it's her son but isn't she "allowed" to be busy or in a shower when he calls without notice? It's not ALL about an OM, or is it?Even so, he got in the shower and was soon happy and singing. I texted W... "S12 has been trying to reach you."
--
When S12 got out of the shower, he call W. He started to talk angrily and
disrespectfully and I corrected him.
good^^^and you do this, btw, NOT b/c you are a good husband but b/c you are a good FATHER. This advice is for your son, not your w. Do you see? Even so, he showed his mom he was upset and said "Why aren't you here? Just solve your problem and come live with us!"
W asked to talk with me. She was upset. Saying she was looking at an apartment to help S12. That he didn't like to stay at aunt's house. Asked me again to take him most nights. She would drive him to school. She was very agitated.
I let my irritation show about her not answering. Told her I didn't want to here her excuses.
When she angrily said S12 only called her 2 times when he had been trying for 30 minutes... I got angry.
It turned into a very angry R talk.
to ME, this^^ is an example of something NOT working.--
---
So we're in a bad bad place. I don't feel it's the right place.
I'm remembering 25 and Chuck talking about "listening like a lover." I try to think of W. I know from her email that she is lashing out scared like her IC told her. Remember all the comments how she is trying to be a good mom. Remember all the 2x4's about being a good dad and being polite. - I call her.
- She starts to talk about him. I can hear she is fighting not to cry. I ask her to tell me what's wrong. She says nothing. She says she's not feeling great and starts to cry.
I listen. I ask her about her work day. She opens up and tells me all about it.
I listen and ask her questions about what she says. She keeps talking. Talks for 20 minutes about her work and plans for business. --- She keeps saying thank you for asking. She keeps crying a little.
She asks me about my work. I tell her about my project.
She thanks me for talking with her. How much she appreciates it. How shocked she is that I called..
She offers to pick up some groceries for us on the way to drop S12 off here. I tell her to get S12's breakfast food.
She says if I want anything else to text her. I say bye and hung up. A little later, I text her food that she would know is for me. She replies... "OK!"
S12 just called me. Says he and W are going to stop for burritos. Asks if W can get me one. I say sure.
So complete inconsistency. I don't know what works.
Seriously? ?
You "don't know what works"??? TO ME -- THIS^^^ worked!
In large part b/c you were NOT attaching your expectations to it,
you were not so invested in her reaction; You were simply being YOU being compassionate. That is the beginning of healthy detachment.
AT least from where I sit.=
I just showed I can be friendly when we talk like we used to. When I show interest in S12 and her day. It fits what DB Coach Chuck and 25 tell me about empathy. My W wants acceptance and to be listened to. She knows what she did and is doing is horrible but she says she can't let go.
So I can kill her with kindness. This would be a major 180 for me to keep going this way. Somehow distant and friendly. Leave my ego someplace else and be humble about my part in all this. Sit with her at a table and have lunch. Risk feeling like a doormat.
How are you "risking feeling like a doormat"? Let me reword that. DON'T RISK IT.
You can be polite and show compassion without being a doormat. To think otherwise means you cannot be loving and detached. And That's not true. Starsky is right... I've posted as much in 3 months as others have posted in an entire year. And still I'm here.. feeling like I should be authentic and natural with W while part of me is screaming I'm a doormat if I do it.
The listening is the big 180 I did at the beginning when she was still in my bed and I thought OM was a voice on the phone. When I finally faced the truth... I felt like a dope for all the compassion and kindness I showed my W while she was lying and sneaking off to be with him.
But you're right it worked if works means...
* All around anger stays low.
* S12 is protected and supported
* I feel more peaceful
* I change into a better person
* W contacts me less
* W sees better me
So while I'm doing the more important and pleasurable GAL activities... W can just live on the periphery of my life and I can really move away from her.
I see now it's my ego that has kept me from being compassionate to my W. I have to get my ego out of the way to detach. Thank you 25 I'm getting it.
Hp,
Just do it man. When she's nice you be warm. When she's a %°¢®€¥ you be warm. You can warmly say that you are not going to be treated poorly and hang up the phone. Can u imagine how confused she would be if you just ran up to her and said hi with a big smile on your face? What would that cost you? Your anger is burning you up man! You are giving her the power to drag u down the rabbit hole. Where does that leave your S? Yes this all [censored] but it is our reality. If you live in a house u hate are you gonna just moan about it ? No, you'll do things to make it as pleasant as possible. Trust me, I know bout the emotional swings but as with any feelings it is your decision whether or not they control you. If you let them control you, what is the real difference between you and W?
Praying for you!
Hey thanks bravo. I'm trying. I feel, though, that when I get comfortable and give my W an inch, she goes and takes a million miles.
We had that horrible screaming R talk Wednesday night about her falling into her A and not wanting to stop contacting him. The next day... I say I'm moving forward and do not want to hear from her. More ugliness. I make one phone call and ask about her day. She appreciated that and bought me groceries. Tonight I listened again to her talk about her problems at her aunt's house and I help by taking S12 tonight. She bought us dinner again tonight.
Now she texts me... "How are you? It was very nice to talk to you on Wednesday."
What?
We were screaming at each other on Wednesday. She was calling me an MoFo and a p*ssy and a coward on Wednesday. Maybe she forgot that. This new person she is certainly does forget the things she says.
Even more funny... a month ago when I said I knew about her PA and kicked her out the condo... she unfriended me on FB. Now tonight she texts... "Sorry I unfriended you on FB. I sent you a friend request. Will you accept it?"
Nice.
So, what would it cost me? I'm thinking it would cost me her treating me like we're buddies minutes after all the pain and destruction and cursing and screaming. That's not self-respect.
I listen very closely to what 25 says about empathy and what Sandi says about the reasons WAW show disrespect. Trying to find the line between those two places. She just seems to keep changing the line.
Off to the basketball game then. Good luck to you Bravo.
no hp,
that's her not respecting you. but you are moving on remember? i personally think it would take a lot more self respect to not be sucked into the drama. just the other day, my XW was really pretty warm to me and i even said "hey it was good to see you" and she responded in kind. i was floored but didn't show it. you know why? i had ZERO expectations!! in fact, i don't even think i posted that on my thread. i still love my XW and miss the R terribly but at some point, you have to make the decision to step away emotionally. you can still be warm and listen like a lover etc but i'm telling you man, it's so much better for you. and here's the key, when you get to that place, they feel it and seem to relax a little. sure there will still be flare ups for them but there will be more distance between them. keep in mind, she's hurting too and i know it's hard not to say "what about me?" i know in my case it was "what about me" through most of my M. just like Yoda said "do or do not, there is no try".
hp i believe in you!
HP, I have often times felt that, hey, I'm changing and doing all this, why isn't she pursuing me?
Do you have those thoughts as well?
Thanks Bravo. I hear you and agree I have to step away emotionally. I think something is really wrong with my W.
Basketball game was fine. Just gave W a hello. Didn't sit together again. No problem.
Game was fine. Boys team barely lost. He played a better game. Made some good defensive plays. Made a steal and almost made a shot.
He made some mistakes, though. And he focused on those.
At the end of the game... he was down again. He walked away from his mom. She looked stunned that he did. I told him to not do that. She tried to talk with him but he didn't talk. I put my arm around him, said see you later to W, and we walked away from her. She stood there with that stunned look on her face.
On the drive home again S12 was talking about how he didn't play well. How horrible everything is. Full of sadness. We talked. I told him about thinking positive thoughts. How your thoughts become real for you. No good.
W called on the drive home. I answered businesslike. She asked how S12 was doing. As he was sitting there, I said he was OK. She said... "I thought he had a great game! But he seemed mad at me. I didn't do anything. I don't know why he would feel that way."
I let that slide right off me. No reaction from me.
I said we're fine... we're almost home. She said ok... she would not call him. I said OK. I hung up.
S12 kept talking. I did not fight him... just repeated what he said back to him. Making sure he felt heard by me. I did have to stop him after a little while... tell him he was special... a good boy... there's nothing for him to fix... I'm here and I'll take care of him... nothing is his job or his fault... we have a lot to be grateful for... we love his mom... we'll be OK.
He's in the shower now. Singing like he always does. He's always better after a shower.
W just called again. Asked about s12. I paused... then told her the truth this time... that he's very sad... that he was not happy with his game.. that he said he's useless... that he says he can't fix anything... that I'm talking with him... the usual I said. She should know. I said it businesslike. No judgement. Just the facts. No expectations.
Her voice broke. Sounding very sad she just said... "Thank you HP. I'm on my way to my aunt's. I'll be by to pick him up in the morning." I said OK bye. I hung up. Businesslike.
No defending herself this time. No blaming me. No cursing me. No attacks. No denials.
No expectations from me that her sadness meant any of this is reaching the person I used to know.
She will drive S12 to NYC tomorrow for a hotel overnight and to see the sights. Something we always talked about doing but never got around to. I really hope they have a good time.
Monday W will visit with my IC to tell her about s12.
Tuesday S12 will start seeing my IC.
Just keep going.
HP, I have often times felt that, hey, I'm changing and doing all this, why isn't she pursuing me?
Do you have those thoughts as well?
Hey vasapro. Honestly... no.
I have a lot to change. Most importantly... how to make my own everlasting joy living in this cold city far far from a Caribbean beach.
And my W has been gradually getting resentful about my unhappiness for 7 years.
It's going to take more than standing up to her everyday, taking care of my son, looking fit and sexy, and acting "as if" I'm moving on.
I'll need to vibrate with happiness, motivation, and purpose. I'll need to have the warm Caribbean sun shinning from within me no matter where I am or how cold the weather. I'll need to dance and smile and mean it.
I'm not there yet but I will get there soon enough.
And when I get there... it won't matter if she pursues me or not.
Take care vasapro.
Well said HP, and well done.
Much better HP.
I get the kids sadness and questions too. I choose not to bring that up to the XW or if she brings it up just vague " they're sad about stuff". I choose this route as I can see her believing I'm manipulating the kids to guilt her. I see it as her relationship is hers w/them. They ask me things cause they don't fear my reaction and they know I didn't want this.
I know it's hard but we all expect a lot out of you cause we know u can do it!
HP
Your S12 is in limbo land. Clearly W is not in a good place and her aunts is chaotic and this reflects to a sensitive child.
Your IC will help you build S12 and guide you with his confidence. None of this unhappiness is s12 fault at all but it's possible that if s12 thought s12 was better that this would not have happened. Children have strange connections that adults would seem to think impossible. IC will help you.
W is clever taking s12 somewhere to a different environment will be exciting and away from the pressures of aunts. Aunt sounds amazing to take in W and have S to stay especially with a small baby. Not ideal but stability anyway that is something to be thankful for W and S12 are with family.
If you come from a place of love, then there will be no anger, anger is absent from a loving heart. A loving heart is always a good place to start. Warmth and the higher ground is important. I see Sandi and 25 as in the same place with different views. Firm on boundary infringements and warm on interactions. Cut short the spew and arguments, reward the positives.
HP your posts track your journey, no difficulty in seeing the changes for the good. There is more to come.
V
Hey thank you vasapro, bravo, and Vanilla for your kind words of support. I do feel like I'm making progress being a more authentic happy person for myself and my son. I've always been optomistic but I do take things hard and do tend to get in ruts. I see this in my son now with his bouts of sadness and I'm determined to help him.
On that note... the antidepressants seem to be working now. Over the past few days... I've been feeling a small but growing strange happiness. Sometimes almost excitement. Yesterday I caught myself dancing in the elevator to a song I was playing in my head. I went to bed last light laughing to myself about something. I answered all of W calls yesterday with calmness and no irritation. I walk with poise and purpose.
I'm getting very sleepy at points during the day though. So sleepy I feel forced to take as much as 2 naps a day. And they're extremely heavy naps. I wake up from them terribly groggy. That and I'm eating more and putting on weight. My motivation is not high... but not as low as it has been.
So I feel this was a good thing. I'm looking forward to feeling even better and stronger and less irritated with my W's behavior...
Like her texting me awake after midnight last night just to tell me to switch calendars and to ask how S12 was.
Or quickly walking away from me and S12 after we parked next to her in the gym parking lot before his game.
I was told to not be surprised or upset by things my W will do these days. I'm getting better at that.
And I have to remember her life is difficult right now. She said they we're struggling at her aunt's house. She said her money is not good. It's still a month until she moves to her apartment. And the IRS should start taking money from her paycheck next month.
I'm sure she'll be fine. She has some great business opportunities which, if they happen, would be fantastic for all of us.
So, I'm staying out of the way.
She just called to say she's here to pick up S12. She sounds irritable. Gave him a hug and sent him downstairs. Now he can't find his hat. She sends him back upstairs to find it. Now she texts and calls me sounding even more short irritable. She has a hat in the car. He found his hat upstairs. Now he's gone again. Nice.
I really hope they have a good time.
But, then again... no expectations.
Are you groggy because you are eating lots of carbs? Simple sugars and starches may be playing havoc with blood sugar. It's a simple test, diabetes is easy to spot as is its precursor metabolic syndrome. BTW I am diabetic, I have a genetic version and am type 2 eventually type 1 I suppose. So I live on protein and veg mainly.
Worthwhile peeing on a stick to find out, HP I don't like the sound of the napping and weight gain because it's out of pattern for you and the things you write, I am concerned for you. please if you haven't already get it checked and know your numbers.
Glad to hear the ADs are helping you. Are these ADs contraindicated for blood sugar?
V
I agree with vanilla. I was on AD for a few years and my blood sugar would get out of whack a lot. I am not diabetic but my brother is type I and I am pretty well educated on the topic. The AD also made me sleepy. I weaned myself off the AD and my blood sugar squared away and I rarely nap now.
You might try some vitamin B, or bee pollen. Check with a supplement expert.
Hello Vanilla. Thank you for that valuable information.
I just read up on the AD I'm on, Lexapro. Some do report sleepiness and weight gain.
I was already gaining weight after I got to the condo. I was down to 173 lbs from 190 lbs at BD so I'm not worried about the weight gain. I am eating more junk food/sodas. There's a very attractive candy/soda machine in this building. I just have to get back on my eating discipline there.
I think it's a matter of me just getting back in motion. I used to run at least 7 miles a day before BD.
I think the positives are far outweighing the benefits so far. I do have a Dr. appointment coming up soon so I will follow up on these things.
Thanks again.
"I have Courageous rented and will watch it tonight."
Did you?
I said we're fine... we're almost home. She said ok... she would not call him. I said OK. I hung up.
We have to work on you understanding that the word should be he, not we. Quit trying to lump it together. Focus on your S12 and stop adding yourself in to stuff she didn't ask you about. Your response here makes this:
I let that slide right off me. No reaction from me.
Seem like dishonesty. If it had rolled right off of you your focus would be on your son and not yourself.
we have a lot to be grateful for... we love his mom... we'll be OK.
Dude, really???? This is beyond wrong. Quit incorporating your son and you into one. This should have been about him not you. He has a lot to be grateful for and his mom loves him and he will be ok.
HP, I am simply going to say that I understand all of this is difficult and you feel like you are hanging by a thread. But, you have to really look at your responsibilities as a parent here and stop making the situation about us and we with your S12. Understand that the psychological damage that this causes is tremendous. You will make him feel that if you and your WAW don't get back together that he had something to do with it. He's also 12 and not 4 so understand that he knows a lot more than you are giving him credit for.
Stop engaging her, she knows son is pissed, don't keep explaining it to her. Let her get that from him and not you. I can promise you this, if you two divorce you will no longer be the buffer between yourself and your WAW. She will have a separate relationship with him that you need to stay out of.
I get it that you feel like if you act like your a family maybe she will want that and come back, but that doesn't work. What that does is increase her guilt and anger and make her feel like it is not recoverable. Be independent, be strong for your son, and be ok no matter the outcome. This is what will show her that recovery is possible. Being a man and father whether she is there or not is what will sell you as a partner in marriage.
Your job first and foremost is S12, please remember that and please stop engaging the we/us behaviors. I promise you it leads down a road that you will not like the results of. For you, or for S12, the road you are taking sets both of you up to be let down and angry. Focus on what you can control not on what you cannot.
I am not sure if you understand what a "Circle of influence" is but you should look it up. Make a list of what exists within that circle for you and stick to that. Stay away from things that do not fall within your ability to control or influence.
Ian
HP,
I noticed a few things below, including pieces that accurately describe what you do and what you must stop doing.
[quote=sofaraway]
-
S12 is old enough to have conversations with his mother without you in earshot. Let them have their conversations privately and only get involved if S12 comes to you because he needs your help in it. It tends to come off as manipulative listening to and quoting your sons back and forth with his mom.
You do not have to give her road maps to your reactions and behaviors. She doesn't need to know you are going to limit your talking to her. She will figure that out.
Yes I must stay out of S12's conversations with his mom. I do tell W about the struggles S12 has
b/c I want her to see the impact of what she's doing. I see that is manipulation from me and pressure on him.
It's totally your manipulation here. 100%.
Even though I say I'm moving on and want to...
I am stuck on the wanting our R to renew. So I did get sucked into those 2 R talks were I was still trying to talk logic to her and tell her my side. She strangely (to me) seems happy to have these talks which wrongly opens me up to hope that we can talk this through.
so I just keep talking without thinking which is very bad.
Not saying "it's very bad", but it is ineffective.
Div Busting is about effective behaviors that help you achieve your goals.
And sometimes the behavior IS the goal.
If guilt were an effective tool, she'd by home by now.
Usually, (no, not "ALWAYS" - but way more often than not)
Guilt converts into anger or blame at the person "causing" the guilt, which would be you.
Even when a WAS is angry at themselves, that does not equate with a return to the spouse. They may believe the combination of you and them is the problem.
OR they may feel yes, THEY "blew it and there's no coming back from that now"...so they don't even bother trying.
AND OR they tell themselves,
"he'll make me climb Mt Everest to come back and then he'll throw me off!" B/c they either don't want to have to humble themselves anyhow,
and or, they really do believe it's a pointless endeavor b/c in the end, you won't be happy anyhow, and neither will they. If no changes are demonstrated in the home life, the marriage they left, then why on earth would they return, regardless of OM/OW?
No WAS returns to a marriage they left, ever.......unless they come to believe
the marriage can be different/better than before.
Ian is spot on when he says that the more you make these situations hard for her, the harder it would be for her to return. Some of your behaviors are doing the opposite of what seems to be your goal.
Punishing her does nothing for YOU, except some small (and that's the word; "small") victory of the moment.
Some folks don't understand what my DB coach meant, when she said to
"Keep the Road Home, Paved & Smooth."
That ^^ has never meant, "become a doormat". Do not misinterpret it.
In your situation, making every single problem your son has, hers, or every problem he has, yours, or "ours", isn't fair to anyone,
and it isn't accurate and it most certainly does not help anyone or anything to change.
Get back to some DB basics.
GAL - helps you to Detach, which you must do soon...
and a part of that detachment is to separate yourself from HIM and your wife.
Detachment is key to healing and healing is key to having some form of relationship with your wife, whatever that ends up being.
Yes, you two should be able to discuss your son as adults with his best interests at heart. When you start believing that she wants that, even if she's not married to you, that will help all parties.
Right now, that feels like a "reward" to her, in your eyes. I don't agree, but that's not relevant.
And that's -again-you making her relationship with your son, about how YOU feel. I hope that changes very very soon.
At some point you two will need to communicate much better than you do now.
That's on you, b/c you are the one who can't handle it at this point. Do you see that?
NO, I'm not referring to when she spews; of course that must stop then & there.
I'm talking about when she's "normal" or kind to you, & you can't handle that either.
So that will need to change for you two to begin -- whatever you begin...
which is not going to happen today.
So, what DB basic can you do, today?
Hi HP,
The whole nap could be the blood sugars going all over the place but the ADs work better after a month or even longer. I started with the lowest dosage possible, so I could build up from there. I did not need to increase it though. I feel the lowest dosage is working for me. But, every person is different, maybe you need a different kind of AD and for that you need to talk to your doctor about the side effects.
I also noticed that I felt good with the ADs but at first it gives you a sense of happiness but you are still struggling with the many worries and problems so it can put you to sleep because you escape from the troubles. It's very psychological so maybe you can ask you IC about the behavior.
Our minds work strangely well, and will in some ways protect us from harm. Be careful and try to find the source of these side effects. It's very important because you can go from irritated and angry to a very deep depression even taking the ADs.
Thanks for posting on my thread, I am in a very difficult spot right now. I need to make some decisions and I am very mixed up with all what is going on.
My H is not so much like your W, but is similar in some ways. He can't just leave me alone, he goes for a few days then he text, call or come to the house with some subject, or about the kids schedule, or to let me know what is his schedule, or ask for some paper. It's amazing that he always find the way to be connected.
I even ask myself why he does this if he wants out. I am giving him all the space he needs, I almost never call him for anything. But, as DB says I should not ask too many questions of why he does what he does and just pay attention to his actions.
It's like he says something and does different stuff. Well it's a soap opera and right now I really don't see how it will all end. It's running it's course to a D, but who knows, life changes and it may be all different tomorrow.
Hope your life keeps the good stuff as it is in that direction right now. You have been changing yourself. Doing the baby steps so it is a slow but constant grow in your spirit.
Good lucky to you.
Hugs,
Pink
"I have Courageous rented and will watch it tonight."
Did you?
A recommendation, I will try!
V
"I have Courageous rented and will watch it tonight."
Did you?
I did. I cried and felt very humbled. I don't know what to do with all this except what you talked about... focus on HIM not US. No more focus on me.
It was an uplifting movie... but I found the message more daunting. These men had the support and love of their wives. Like you said, though... my W won't come back if I'm not strong enough to lead my son through this.
Thank you for suggesting this movie sofaraway. Please know that I want to do what it takes if it means I can be a man my W would want to come back to and love. I can be like these men that actively lead their families everyday. I want to learn how and I know I can do it.
I said we're fine... we're almost home. She said ok... she would not call him. I said OK. I hung up.
We have to work on you understanding that the word should be he, not we. Quit trying to lump it together. Focus on your S12 and stop adding yourself in to stuff she didn't ask you about. Your response here makes this:
I let that slide right off me. No reaction from me.
Seem like dishonesty. If it had rolled right off of you your focus would be on your son and not yourself.
we have a lot to be grateful for... we love his mom... we'll be OK.
Dude, really???? This is beyond wrong. Quit incorporating your son and you into one. This should have been about him not you. He has a lot to be grateful for and his mom loves him and he will be ok.
HP, I am simply going to say that I understand all of this is difficult and you feel like you are hanging by a thread. But, you have to really look at your responsibilities as a parent here and stop making the situation about us and we with your S12. Understand that the psychological damage that this causes is tremendous. You will make him feel that if you and your WAW don't get back together that he had something to do with it. He's also 12 and not 4 so understand that he knows a lot more than you are giving him credit for.
Stop engaging her, she knows son is pissed, don't keep explaining it to her. Let her get that from him and not you. I can promise you this, if you two divorce you will no longer be the buffer between yourself and your WAW. She will have a separate relationship with him that you need to stay out of.
I get it that you feel like if you act like your a family maybe she will want that and come back, but that doesn't work. What that does is increase her guilt and anger and make her feel like it is not recoverable. Be independent, be strong for your son, and be ok no matter the outcome. This is what will show her that recovery is possible. Being a man and father whether she is there or not is what will sell you as a partner in marriage.
Your job first and foremost is S12, please remember that and please stop engaging the we/us behaviors. I promise you it leads down a road that you will not like the results of. For you, or for S12, the road you are taking sets both of you up to be let down and angry. Focus on what you can control not on what you cannot.
I am not sure if you understand what a "Circle of influence" is but you should look it up. Make a list of what exists within that circle for you and stick to that. Stay away from things that do not fall within your ability to control or influence.
Ian
Thank you for this post too sofaraway. I really appreciate what you're saying about my we/us behaviors with S12 and I'm very glad you mentioned this.
I did think it was best for him to hear me talk about US... like he and I are a team getting through this. And yes I thought it was right to let W know what S12 told me b/c I felt she was ignoring this by her words and actions.
I understand you're saying I'm wrong b/c S12 will feel responsible for what's happening by me saying "WE will be fine" instead of "YOU will be fine." He should know I'm taking care of him and he has no responsibility to take care of me or us or anything else.
And I understand I must be careful not to guilt or blame W about any of this. I have to just be strong and lead my family through this.
I admit I'm not entirely clear on this b/c of the anger I have harbored. I know to trreat W with politeness. On top of that, I will take care of S12 issues when he comes to me with them. I will not encourage him to talk with his mom... just let him do it as he feels to.
I'm getting this and S12 is the most important person here.
Thank you again for correcting my actions.
If guilt were an effective tool, she'd by home by now.
Usually, (no, not "ALWAYS" - but way more often than not)
Guilt converts into anger or blame at the person "causing" the guilt, which would be you.
Even when a WAS is angry at themselves, that does not equate with a return to the spouse. They may believe the combination of you and them is the problem.
OR they may feel yes, THEY "blew it and there's no coming back from that now"...so they don't even bother trying.
AND OR they tell themselves,
"he'll make me climb Mt Everest to come back and then he'll throw me off!" B/c they either don't want to have to humble themselves anyhow,
and or, they really do believe it's a pointless endeavor b/c in the end, you won't be happy anyhow, and neither will they. If no changes are demonstrated in the home life, the marriage they left, then why on earth would they return, regardless of OM/OW?
No WAS returns to a marriage they left, ever.......unless they come to believe
the marriage can be different/better than before.
Ian is spot on when he says that the more you make these situations hard for her, the harder it would be for her to return. Some of your behaviors are doing the opposite of what seems to be your goal.
Punishing her does nothing for YOU, except some small (and that's the word; "small") victory of the moment.
Some folks don't understand what my DB coach meant, when she said to
"Keep the Road Home, Paved & Smooth."
That ^^ has never meant, "become a doormat". Do not misinterpret it.
In your situation, making every single problem your son has, hers, or every problem he has, yours, or "ours", isn't fair to anyone,
and it isn't accurate and it most certainly does not help anyone or anything to change.
Get back to some DB basics.
GAL - helps you to Detach, which you must do soon...
and a part of that detachment is to separate yourself from HIM and your wife.
Detachment is key to healing and healing is key to having some form of relationship with your wife, whatever that ends up being.
Yes, you two should be able to discuss your son as adults with his best interests at heart. When you start believing that she wants that, even if she's not married to you, that will help all parties.
Right now, that feels like a "reward" to her, in your eyes. I don't agree, but that's not relevant.
And that's -again-you making her relationship with your son, about how YOU feel. I hope that changes very very soon.
At some point you two will need to communicate much better than you do now.
That's on you, b/c you are the one who can't handle it at this point. Do you see that?
NO, I'm not referring to when she spews; of course that must stop then & there.
I'm talking about when she's "normal" or kind to you, & you can't handle that either.
So that will need to change for you two to begin -- whatever you begin...
which is not going to happen today.
So, what DB basic can you do, today?
Hello 25. OK yes on GAL. I went shopping today which is a 180 for me. I got a very nice dress shirt. The first part of my new wardrobe goal. Next is new dress shoes and a suit.
On guilting W... if she asks me how S12 is... I say fine b/c I'm making sure he's fine by telling him he's going to be fine and then supporting him in that way.
So I'm giving W nothing more to worry about. I or anything to do with me should be the least of any worry she has is what you and sofaraway are saying. When she calls me, she should hang up the phone thinking... "HP has it handled thank God" or "It sure was nice to talk to HP" or something like that.
I'm killing her with kindness then.
...
Tonight... she texted me pictures she took of S12 in NYC with little funny captions. I have not accepted her FB friend request so she took the extra step to text them to me.
I replied ... "Thank you W. Glad you guys are having a good time"
When I tried to call S12, she texted back... "He's asleep."
I said "OK."
She texted ... "Good night HP."
I texted ... "Good night."
So I'm keeping up politeness.
And I just keep going like this. No pursuit. No R talks. No anger. Nothing but niceness. I have everything taken care of. No guilt. No stress from me.
I am a humble, nice to deal with, co-worker.
OK then I will do that.
On to more GAL.
It seems as though tonights text exchange was near textbook HP.. Good stuff!!.. Keep it up!!..
Hey LoveMyW. Thank you for your support.
You know... I'm tired of the "don't reply to her texts too soon" thing. Timing texts makes me think too much of her. If she sends a text that needs answering... I answer as briefly and as soon as possible as other have suggested I do. Like I would to a co-worker I don't know well. If it's something nasty or personal... I don't respond at all.
I've been answering her phone calls since Wednesday b/c she said she appreciated a talk I initiated then and she likes to talk. But honestly... she's pushing it with the amount of phone calls again. That's how I'm feeling right now. I want to go 4 weeks with no R talk and only seeing her at our son's basketball games.
I saw your W also says you're childish b/c you don't return texts. And then you find out she wanted to ask you about something minor. Same here. I'm seriously tempted to get a GF and just block her phone calls!
Good luck to you.
Blocking her phone calls might not be a bad idea. You still need a method of communication though - land line?
Anything to block cell phone and texts would be a blessing.
Hey LoveMyW. Thank you for your support.
You know... I'm tired of the "don't reply to her texts too soon" thing. Timing texts makes me think too much of her. If she sends a text that needs answering... I answer as briefly and as soon as possible as other have suggested I do. Like I would to a co-worker I don't know well. If it's something nasty or personal... I don't respond at all.
I've been answering her phone calls since Wednesday b/c she said she appreciated a talk I initiated then and she likes to talk. But honestly... she's pushing it with the amount of phone calls again. That's how I'm feeling right now. I want to go 4 weeks with no R talk and only seeing her at our son's basketball games.
I saw your W also says you're childish b/c you don't return texts. And then you find out she wanted to ask you about something minor. Same here. I'm seriously tempted to get a GF and just block her phone calls!
Good luck to you.
I think the whole not replying too soon thing can be a bit that way, but I must admit that it has helped me to NOT think about her as much.. I know that my W has texts set up to get a notification when a sent text is open so I just won't read it until I'M ready.. This means seeing any possible spew or anything is done when I am ready.. The way I see it, if it's a true emergency then my phone would be blowing up with calls and if I wasn't answering them then a family member from either side would get a hold of me..
The other side of that option to not answer straight away to unimportant stuff is that is gives off an aura that you are not sitting by the phone and are out GAL'ing even when you aren't.. It shows the whole "moving on" aspect which in turn helps detachment..
With the chatting, I think we can recognise together that interaction between us and our respective W's is there, which is a big thing.. It may not be perfect all the time but the lines are open.. We have all seen sitch's here where an LBS has absolutely no contact with WAS etc..
Yes, that came out today from my W that it was childish.. Just take that comment in and have it leave as validation.. I've decided that comments like that won't roll off me like water off a ducks back.. That's my choice though as I would rather act like a tree.. Take in the bad/spew/insults and return them as a positive experience.. I'm not saying I wallow in what is said, and if anything that's far from the truth..
Part of my reason behind that is the temper that I showed throughout my R/M.. In not a bad, violent or abusive person by any stretch of the imagination, but I was also no angel.. We had your average arguments, but I'm the first to admit that I occasionally got a little too riled up which got the voice up etc..
This was part of her WAW leavers guide script but something I could honestly agree with (even she has mentioned that she blew it out of proportion).. This is one of my 180's for life now..
I see Sandi and 25 as in the same place with different views. Firm on boundary infringements and warm on interactions. Cut short the spew and arguments, reward the positives.
Thanks Vanilla, I think we do agree. We are giving VP's from both sides of the fence.
I especially agree with how 25 yrs stated the below post.
If guilt were an effective tool, she'd by home by now.
Usually, (no, not "ALWAYS" - but way more often than not)
Guilt converts into anger or blame at the person "causing" the guilt, which would be you.
Even when a WAS is angry at themselves, that does not equate with a return to the spouse. They may believe the combination of you and them is the problem.
OR they may feel yes, THEY "blew it and there's no coming back from that now"...so they don't even bother trying.
AND OR they tell themselves,
"he'll make me climb Mt Everest to come back and then he'll throw me off!" B/c they either don't want to have to humble themselves anyhow,
and or, they really do believe it's a pointless endeavor b/c in the end, you won't be happy anyhow, and neither will they. If no changes are demonstrated in the home life, the marriage they left, then why on earth would they return, regardless of OM/OW?
No WAS returns to a marriage they left, ever.......unless they come to believe
the marriage can be different/better than before.
Ian is spot on when he says that the more you make these situations hard for her, the harder it would be for her to return. Some of your behaviors are doing the opposite of what seems to be your goal.
Punishing her does nothing for YOU, except some small (and that's the word; "small") victory of the moment.
Some folks don't understand what my DB coach meant, when she said to
"Keep the Road Home, Paved & Smooth."
That ^^ has never meant, "become a doormat". Do not misinterpret it.
In your situation, making every single problem your son has, hers, or every problem he has, yours, or "ours", isn't fair to anyone,
and it isn't accurate and it most certainly does not help anyone or anything to change.
Get back to some DB basics.
GAL - helps you to Detach, which you must do soon...
and a part of that detachment is to separate yourself from HIM and your wife.
Detachment is key to healing and healing is key to having some form of relationship with your wife, whatever that ends up being.
Yes, you two should be able to discuss your son as adults with his best interests at heart. When you start believing that she wants that, even if she's not married to you, that will help all parties.
Right now, that feels like a "reward" to her, in your eyes. I don't agree, but that's not relevant.
And that's -again-you making her relationship with your son, about how YOU feel. I hope that changes very very soon.
At some point you two will need to communicate much better than you do now.
That's on you, b/c you are the one who can't handle it at this point. Do you see that?
NO, I'm not referring to when she spews; of course that must stop then & there.
I'm talking about when she's "normal" or kind to you, & you can't handle that either.
So that will need to change for you two to begin -- whatever you begin...
which is not going to happen today.
So, what DB basic can you do, today?
HP, think of yourself as being a ship. Your WAW is the ocean water. The ship has a destination and must stay the course to get there. Now the water is unpredictable. Sometimes it is quite and things run smoother. But most times, the water is making waves and splashing up against the ship, sometimes violently, and trying to get over into the ship. The water can get very rough when storms comes, and even try to turn the ship around, turn it over, or and wreck it with giant waves, and suck in down into the depths of its darkness. However, the ship has been built well and has the best instruments and skill to navigate through the storms. It steadily continues on course to its destination, and will not give up by the splashing sounds of the water. It comes along with the ride to the other side.
There is a little passenger along on this trip, who is not enjoying the ride. He did not ask for it and did not want to travel this way. He gets very scared when the ship is tossed around. It takes both the ship and the water to get this little passenger safely ashore.
Rely upon your instruments (DB skills) to keep you on course. Know that you will weather the storms, and they eventually die down. It is the water (your WAW) that is splashing around, looking angry & scarey, going in up & down -- back & forth extremes but getting nowhere. Do not let the storms suck you down into the depths of destruction. You are strong and can ride out the waves and get there.
Keep the ship in good condition and the instruments in check.
"I have Courageous rented and will watch it tonight."
Did you?
I did. I cried and felt very humbled. I don't know what to do with all this except what you talked about... focus on HIM not US. No more focus on me.
It was an uplifting movie... but I found the message more daunting. These men had the support and love of their wives. Like you said, though... my W won't come back if I'm not strong enough to lead my son through this.
Thank you for suggesting this movie sofaraway. Please know that I want to do what it takes if it means I can be a man my W would want to come back to and love. I can be like these men that actively lead their families everyday. I want to learn how and I know I can do it.
Hi HP,
Leave the wives out of it. Regardless of being married or not these men understood how to lead their children, how to be the example of right and wrong, and how to lead their families regardless of bad things happening.
The point for you in this movie was the leadership as a father and the goal of setting the bar for your children that they will reach to. It should help you to understand the way that you should be leading S12 through this tough period. I'm glad you took my other post correctly, this all ties in together.
Ian
Excellent post...
This is painful my friend, but it will get better.
The short answer is tell her nothing, and discuss nothing.
Support her ability to be a good parent to your son, and stop there.
Here's the longer answer:
We use "love" to express a wide range of emotions. We love ice cream, we love dogs, we love our kids, we love our spouse. Each of those "loves" is different right?
When people "fall in love", here's what happens:
Intrusive thinking (you can't stop thinking about the object of your affection)
Uncertainty about the relationship which leads to heartache
Buoyancy, as if walking on air, when there is reciprocation
An acute sensitivity to any acts or thoughts that could be interpreted favorably ("He wore that because he knew I would like it")
A total inability to be interested in more than one person at a time
All other concerns fall into the background
A remarkable ability to emphasize what is truly admirable in the beloved and avoid dwelling on the negative -- even to respond with a compassion for negative qualities and turn them into another positive attribute
Despite all the potential for pain, the feeling that love is supremely delightful and what makes life worth living
This is taken from the book ILYBINILWY and is based on a study by Tennov
People everywhere experience almost exactly these same feelings, and it is completely intoxicating.
It's a drug. Tennov coined a term for it called "Limerence" and you can Google for that.
When people are in this phase, they are obsessed to the point that not much else matters. They lack the ability to make rational decisions, or to have compassion for those outside of their fixation.
That is why nothing you say is going to matter right now. She's just not able to hear it. There are chemicals at work in her brain that limit her ability to hear you, and that is a scientific reality.
If you shame her, scold her, threaten her, etc., you threaten her wonderful feelings and she will resent you for it. This will make her feel badly and she will seek comfort in OM which will deepen their bond.
The book talks about two more kinds of love, "Loving Attachment" and "Affectionate Regard". Loving Attachment is what you would find in a healthy marriage -- not Limerence, and that's why a long term marriage pales in comparison to "affair love". That said, Loving Attachment is very nice, it means both partners are invested in the marriage.
"Affectionate Regard" is what people also call "unconditional love". You can feel this for anyone, and it need not be reciprocated. It does not bring attachment with it.
What often happens is that the marriage slips from Loving Attachment to Affectionate Regard slowly over time, and one person is eventually tempted by feelings of Limerence.
So what can you do?
In a normal dating scenario, Limerence will last from three to five years. In an affair scenario which is usually much more based in fantasy with less of a real foundation, it will typically last from 6 months up to 3 years.
The only way to shorten that time is for the partners to be totally and completely separated with no further contact. This is recommended in all "affair recovery" prescriptions. Any future contact is likely to trigger limerence to kick in again, however, if it is interrupted in this way.
Of course to cut it off completely one of the partners needs to be motivated to end it, and then both will go through a painful grieving process for several months, during which time they're likely to be meaner to you than ever!
So what do you do?
You need to gut-check: are you willing to wait this out for up to a few years?
If so, you need to focus on avoiding things that will *create resentment*. The harder you make it on her now, the more difficult it will be for her to come back to you later.
If you leave a job and your boss shakes your hand and you leave on good terms, it's pretty easy to consider going back there later. If you leave a job and the boss swears at you, berates you, and threatens you, there's usually no way in hell you're going to consider going back there, you're going to look to find a new job instead.
That's the model. If you want a chance to reconcile later, you need to keep the path home paved and smooth, which is to say that you do not do or say things that will increase resentment. You just let her be, and you do your own thing.
This is brutal, because she is really severely wronging you, and there is no way for you to be heard, to get compassion, or to get the things you feel you're owed at a very fundamental level, but that's just the way it is.
The two of them are in a castle with a big wall around it, and there is no way in until the walls start to crumble, which inevitably will happen on it's own time.
Acc
What a brilliant description. It is amazing that although we class love as a feeling in actual fact it is a science. Chemicals released into the brain that cause you to feel and act a certain way and we're all the same because we're all human.
Im glad a I found this as its comforting to know that I can not do anything about my wife's affair. This is just cold hard science as much as we like to believe love is something else.
Hello sandi and SRD. Yes this post Limerence was very interesting. Helpful in understanding W's actions. Also very helpful in how I must stop shaming and guilting her.
I like the parallel to leaving a job. Right now she feels I hate her and I've been reinforcing that and increasing her resentment. She even said in our last R talk... "How would you feel if I just jumped back into our M and into your bed again?" Yes we've both shown enough resentment and ugliness and weakness to make that impossible. I have to be the one to change. This post was a very clear description of where I've been going wrong so far.
So I'm recommitting again to being as compassionate and respectful as I can to W this week.
And GAL.
Hi Hp,
You've had a lot going on! I was busy and am just catching up.
I think you will find if you can be business friendly with your W. It feels better all around. Your son will be the biggest winner because all he wants to see is the two people he loves most in this world get alone.
I shared this yesterday on my FB page
I forgive people but that doesn't mean I accept their behavior or trust them.
I forgive them for me, so I can LET GO and MOVE on with my life.
This is from Lessons learned in Life.
I agree with the other posters. Discontinue communication when it crosses boundaries into disrespectful behavior. Continue to communicate with your wife. Don't ignore her. You will be connected by your son and future Grandchildren. Who knows what the future holds. Be the shining light of example for your son.
Very well said and very very accurate
HP - How long are you willing to wait?
Accuray,
Thanks for the post, it made me feel better too. I see the same thing with W, supposedly the R is over and the little I see, I see she is trying to re-establish contact as much as possible with him. I need to be patient and let this phase pass.
The post helped out my thoughts of whether she will get out of this that she's in and gave me a little more hope in my sitch. Not that she'll come back, but it helps me cross over the fact that I need to do everything possible to be angry or resentful.
HP....
I have wanted to post to you for a while now, yet I don't wanna confuse you any, with what I say ...
And you have one of the best posting to you right now, with my friend Ian (nice to see you buddy..).
I do have a question for you though...
So you walk into the best Steak house in the country, you sit down, and order the biggest Steak on the menu.
They bring it out and place it in front of you....
Do you cut it up, and savor every bite ??
Or do you try to take it down whole ???
Just curious....
Hi Hp,
You've had a lot going on! I was busy and am just catching up.
I think you will find if you can be business friendly with your W. It feels better all around. Your son will be the biggest winner because all he wants to see is the two people he loves most in this world get alone.
I shared this yesterday on my FB page
I forgive people but that doesn't mean I accept their behavior or trust them.
I forgive them for me, so I can LET GO and MOVE on with my life.
This is from Lessons learned in Life.
I agree with the other posters. Discontinue communication when it crosses boundaries into disrespectful behavior. Continue to communicate with your wife. Don't ignore her. You will be connected by your son and future Grandchildren. Who knows what the future holds. Be the shining light of example for your son.
Hello Karma. You are right and I've spent the weekend thinking about forgiveness... how I can forgive my W and move on. Not just for S12 but for my own wellbeing. I feel more relaxed about my connection to my W right now. We have years raising S12 to go... no use making my life more difficult b/c of how I feel about her actions. So yes I'll start by doing better as you say... just keep engaging her and find ways I can start to accept her again.
HP - How long are you willing to wait?
Hello Jan. I have finally learned to be completely focused on detaching rather than waiting. I have a vision for my life this year and I'm going for it. Getting there will make me very happy and make live better for my son. I'm not going to try to pursue any relationship in that time. I feel it's very important for me to learn how to live alone.
Funny, when all this started my W was saying we should take some time apart to find out who we are alone and if we want to be married. She was lying as she had no intention to be alone and no desire to be married... but she was right. This is my best opportunity to find a life I love so onward.
HP....
I have wanted to post to you for a while now, yet I don't wanna confuse you any, with what I say ...
And you have one of the best posting to you right now, with my friend Ian (nice to see you buddy..).
I do have a question for you though...
So you walk into the best Steak house in the country, you sit down, and order the biggest Steak on the menu.
They bring it out and place it in front of you....
Do you cut it up, and savor every bite ??
Or do you try to take it down whole ???
Just curious....
Hello Mach. Thank you very much for posting here. I have read your posts on the Denver_2010 thread. Your words there have already immensely helped me understand the need to detach.
As for your question... I would cut the steak up and savor every bite. As I'm sure the restaurant is a wonderful place to be... I would savor the steak even slower to savor the surroundings and company as well.
HP....
I have wanted to post to you for a while now, yet I don't wanna confuse you any, with what I say ...
And you have one of the best posting to you right now, with my friend Ian (nice to see you buddy..).
I do have a question for you though...
So you walk into the best Steak house in the country, you sit down, and order the biggest Steak on the menu.
They bring it out and place it in front of you....
Do you cut it up, and savor every bite ??
Or do you try to take it down whole ???
Just curious....
Hello Mach. Thank you very much for posting here. I have read your posts on the Denver_2010 thread. Your words there have already immensely helped me understand the need to detach.
As for your question... I would cut the steak up and savor every bite. As I'm sure the restaurant is a wonderful place to be... I would savor the steak even slower to savor the surroundings and company as well.
First off...thank you for your words...
Secondly...
If you would take that approach with the Steak...
Then why are you trying to take this whole situation on all at once ?
You are trying to deal with this as a total unit, instead of focusing on the parts of it that ....
A-Make you a better man...
Which in turn...
B-makes you a better Father...
Yes ???
Look dude, right here, right now...
Your marriage is dead...gone, kaput, over and out...
So why are you still trying to deal with situations as if you are still in a committed relationship with your wife ??
And that doesn't mean, that somewhere down the road, you cannot have a better, more fulfilling relationship , that may or may not include your current spouse...
There are no guarantees for the future, because your future is yet to be written. You get to do that...One day at a time, one step at a time...
And if I still understand Ian speak....
You HAVE to be the rock for that boy, and show him how to navigate through life's challenges and situations. No matter how large or how small...
Make no mistake, he is watching you....very closely.
Break this down to what you want ( as in goals that do not include another person)....
And what you need to do...
Simplify......
You only get one shot at leaving a legacy...
Be the memory today, that you want him to have in the future...
Journaling...
W had S12 in NYC all weekend. She texted me pictures of S12 enjoying himself.
Last night, I called S12. He answered but then handed the phone to his mom. She explained he had a headache and was tired. She went on to tell me all the places they visited. She sounded in a good mood. I said nice things about what she told me. Pleasant exchange of information.
She asked me how I was. I said fine. She asked again. I repeated. I was talking evenly and businesslike. Just a little friendly. I'm getting better at it.
Admit I was relaxed b/c I had some rum while watching the football games. Noticed that I could've done without the rum. I had been in good sprits the whole weekend.
On Sunday, my OW from 5 years ago called me. I missed her call. She texted me that she needed to talk. I said I'd be around this morning.
This morning she called again. Over the weekend, a close friend of hers, mother of a D12, was in Rome on vacation. Her purse was stolen. She then had an asthma attack. Her medicine was in her purse. She died.
She started to cry. Life is too short. And it all came out.
How she wanted to D her husband during our affair. How she talked with an L. How the only thing that stopped her was her kids... she would've been forced to leave them in her H's country if she wanted to move home. How, if only I had asked her, what she would have done. How angry she was with herself and with me. How she hated herself for being a cheat. How she bottled up her feelings and moved on. How all those feelings are now back. How she can't sleep now. What's in her dreams now. How she doesn't and does want to go through it again. How impossible all this is.
I listened and cried with her for a long time. She was standing by the ocean. She said it was beautiful. We talked about how we used to swim together and more... so many wonderful memories of feeling alive. How if we never saw or spoke to each other again how those memories would be enough.
And we agreed to stop talking.
...
Today I'm working on my side business and reading my book on finding my own happiness on my own.
And I can't stop crying.
Onward.
Careful, HP. This is very dangerous territory.
I would take away from it how whether its your wife or someone else, that this is a glimpse that these feelings you have now about your relationship will eventually heal and you'll be okay.
Also, you can see now how all the vets push absolutely NC with an AP for a WAS
I was afraid of this happening. Now she has put her feelings out there. I will be surprised if she sticks to not contacting you again. Why would she keep her feelings for you bottled up all these years........to reveal them now, and then agree to NC? She has been checking you out since she first learned of your S. It has been building up to this point.
P
If you want your life to get more confusing and frustrated than it is already......you just keep responding to her. You cannot have both women, HP. You need to decide now if you really are going to cut her out of your life once and for all. You cannot be friends with an AP. Surely you have seen that with your own W's affair.
OW is not your escape.
Also, you can see now how all the vets push absolutely NC with an AP for a WAS